Ibogaine List Archives - 2003-02

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 28, 2003 at 2:03:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That was very interesting information indeed! Does Carl N.W. still work with
iboga? I understand Carl is Sara Glatt’s husband? Does he still make written
contributions on his experiences? I know Sara Glatt’s father (who recently
passed away) was also a pioneerr in entheogens also.

Thanks for that useful link.

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

I wondered exactly who the ‘extractor’ guy is. Thats
gotta be an interesting story, the history of that
extract and how it came to be.

Marc

Marc,

Some tidbits

https://lists.calyx.nl/archives/ibogaine/2002-April/000173.html

and

see #2 Denmark

http://www.ibogaine.org/history.html

Brett

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some
good-intended criticism 😉

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name
of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is
Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the
last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL.
(Cordially, Carl! 😉

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:

Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga
derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine),
named after the man who extracted it from Iboga
plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine
alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA
extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer
to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If
you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with
a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency
person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract
will do well. If you were going to an experienced
Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do
well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person
out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post
because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: “Will” <willewonka@burntmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] sorry for double posting…
Date: February 28, 2003 at 1:46:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My webmail crashed while sending the first one, so I didn’t think it went through…

Will

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC May Ibogaine Forum Draft #2
Date: February 28, 2003 at 1:33:22 PM EST
To: hsl123@aol.com
Cc: Daniel Pinchbeck <daniel@breakingopenthehead.com>, RickMAPS@aol.com, Kenneth Alper <kra1@nyu.edu>, “Laurie Mischley” <lauriemischley@attbi.com>, carl_anderson@hms.harvard.edu, aiviarose@netscape.net, cajohnson@bmcc.cuny.edu, clayhoney@hotmail.com, barlow@eff.org, ekwaus@yahoo.com, kid_lucky@hotmail.com, Nmitsogo@aol.com, Suziknkbell@aol.com, kurt@opprect.org, carahuasca@aol.com, beach120St@yahoo.com, mark@mwwilson.com, mirrorlink@aol.com, ismokedmt@aol.com, scottlt@aol.com, hydrocetacean@hotmail.com, lizrymland@hotmail.com, Dka@well.com, pgBenjamin@aol.com, “Brian Vastag” <Brian_Vastag@ama-assn.org>, “Ron Sala” <ronsala@uuma.org>, “The Rev. Richard Erhardt” <erhardt23@mindspring.com>, “The Rev. Gordon Clay Bailey” <NYGBailey@aol.com>, “Quinet, Kim” <kquinet@cotc.edu>, STUARTTROY@webtv.net (Stuart Troy), dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>, Richard Lake <rlake@mapinc.org>, DDanforbes@aol.com, ibogalab@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, m.pilkington@virgin.net, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, NeedelR@aol.com, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

New York City Conference and Telecast
On Iboga and Ibogaine
May 4 & 5, 2003

@The Walker Stage, 56 Walker St.

Sponsors Include:
the Harm Reduction Coalition, MAPS, Association for Drug Prevention and Treatment (ADAPT), Cures not Wars, the Dora Weiner Foundation, The Benu Project, The Greens

PROPOSED DRAFT AGENDA
Sunday, May 4. 2003, noon to 8 pm

12:00 noon – 12:45 pm
Registration $20

12:45 pm – 2:30 pm
Traditional Healing and Religious Practice

Laurent Sazy
Marendi
Awolowo Johnson
Discussion

2:30 pm – 3:30 pm
Break

3:30 pm – 5:30 pm
Treatment Providers
Sara Glatt*
Eric Taub
Patrick Kroupa
Samuel Waizmann*
Howard Lotsof
Marco Resinovik*
Discussion

5:45pm to 8pm

Ibogaine and the Search for Lost Sacraments
Charles Kater, Friends of Bishop Pike*
Frank Morales, Episcopalian
Daniel Pinchbeck, author, BREAKING OPEN THE SKULL
Others, TBA
discussion

Monday, May 5, 2003, 10am to 6pm

10:00 am – 10:30 am
Registration $20
10:30 am – 10:45 am
Introductory remarks
H.S. Lotsof
10:45 am – 1:45 pm
Scientific Panel
Kenneth R. Alper, MD
Deborah C. Mash PhD
Stanley Glick, MD*
Emmanuel Onaivi, Phd
Carl M Anderson, Phd
Discussion

1:45 pm – 3:00 PM
Lunch

3:00 pm – 5:15pm
Politics and Availability
Dana Beal, cures not wars
Vic Hernandez, PhD act up*
Bob Sisko Addiction Research Institute*
Ric Doblin, MAPS
Discussion

5:15pm – 6:00pm
Final Wrap-up Panel

The Monday session will be attended by representatives of various city and state agencies..
————————-
*Invited but not confirmed

Technical requirements & equipment
2 tables
6 chairs
1-2 tablecloth & skirt
1 podium
5 stationary microphones (4 at table, 1 at podium)
1 wireless Microphone (audience questions)
1 slide projector
1 PowerPoint projector

From: “Will” <willewonka@burntmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] extract vs HCL?
Date: February 27, 2003 at 11:42:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

Could people with experience with both iboga extracts and HCL offer more info on the differences, relative advantages/disadvantages, etc.I’ve seen metaphors like “cartoonish”, “opening head with crowbar”, “forgiving”, etc. Could you explain these in more detail?

Also, how do the substances differ in terms of
– physical effects/side effects
– psychological effects, visuals, alteration of perception, cognition, etc
– control of experience (if there’s any element of this with either substance)
– pleasantness/unpleasantness
– ability to understand experience/integrate lessons from it
– affect on addiction/cravings/withdrawal symptoms, etc.

Also, suggestions on reasons/situations that would be better to use one or the other would be helpful. Thank you.

–will

From: “Will” <willewonka@burntmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] extract vs HCL
Date: February 28, 2003 at 12:09:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Could people with experience with both iboga extracts and HCL offer more details on the differences? I’ve seen terms on this list like cartoonish, like a crowbar, and forgiving in describing these differences, and would like to hear more details.

I’d like to hear about differences between extract and HCL in terms of
– physical effects/body load
– psychological experience, visuals, altered perception, cognition, etc
– comfort/discomfort
– ability to understand experience, gain insights, integrate lessons, etc
– effects on cravings/additiction
– long term effects, benefits
– reasons or situations where one might be preferable to the other

The discussions I’ve seen on the list, especially the variety of experiences/perspectives has been very informative so far, so I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic. Thank you.

Will

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 28, 2003 at 11:22:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Stuart, I like you. You’re not like the other people, here, at the trailer
park. I mean don’t get me wrong, they’re good people and fine americans, but
they’re content to sit back, drink a couple of cool coors 16 ouncers, maybe
watch a little mork and mindy on channel 57….they’re good, fine people,
stuart….BUT THEY DON’T KNOW…WHAT THE QUEERS….ARE DOING TO OUR SOIL#@!!@!

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 28, 2003 at 9:07:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wondered exactly who the ‘extractor’ guy is. Thats
gotta be an interesting story, the history of that
extract and how it came to be.

Marc

Marc,

Some tidbits

https://lists.calyx.nl/archives/ibogaine/2002-April/000173.html

and

see #2 Denmark

http://www.ibogaine.org/history.html

Brett

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some
good-intended criticism 😉

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:

Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga
derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine),
named after the man who extracted it from Iboga
plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine
alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person
out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post
because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] wising up the marks…..
Date: February 27, 2003 at 10:40:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:
If you want to help people then why not do that. I thought that
posting information and sharing what youre doing is great but the
past days are starting to be like the twilight zone and this place
was already the twilight zone before you got here but not a sinister
episode only a weird one.

Peace out,
Curtis

Two minutes of clicking the mindvox web site confirms this captain 🙂
Welcome to ibogaine 🙂

.:vector:.

When you’re tired of the Lesser of Two Evils: Cthulhu for President

‘Scuse me, gotta go … I have my Parole Officer hanging on a Meathook
in the Basement

If you Experience Problems: Call your Dealer, Rent a Shrink, or go Buy
a Gun

This is NOT the Summer of Love

It’s Just Like 6 Months of REM Sleep in 6 Hours!

MindVox: Where the Customer is Always Wrong

” Power Corrupts . Absolute Power is Kinda Neat ”

“… And most of all, what Really Sucks, is Everything and All of Us”

Active Ingredients: LSD25 / Crack / Heroin / Ibogaine

“Hate, if you want to hate. If it keeps you safe. If it makes you
brave.”

Hey do0d … Got any Monteka?

MindVox Transcendental Enlightenment Temple / Heroin Maintenance Clinic

“The Needle and The Damage Done”

Welcome to the MindVox Reform School for Wayward Supermodels

Straight Outta Detox

Welcome to: Tranquility Acres, Therapeutic Community

Now Includes: Fully Integrated Messiah Complex

Psychedelic Temple of The Apocalypse

DSM-IV Simplified: (Please Select) [1] Completely Fucking Crazy, or [2]
Full of Shit.

“Great Spirits have always encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre
Minds.”

Live at CBGB’s: Gweeds with Unicorn Rainbow & The Trustafarians

Moderation’s Alright… As long as there’s a LOT of it.

“In the Church of my Heart, the Choir’s on Fire.”

“All That Glitters… has a High Refractive Index”

Erase Me Debase Me Freebase Me

“You Are Exactly Where God Wants You To Be”

Post-human, Fully Deconstructed and Completely Incoherent

Use Once and Destroy

Merry Apocalypse and a Happy Kali Yuga

Hosted by: The International Flat Earth Society

Today’s vocabulary word: Pedohomonecropyrobestiality

Live Long and Prosper / Fuck Off and Die

Why do you have to be Such a Bitch?

It’s all Spiritual n’ Shit

To All The Drugs that I’ve Done: This One’s For You

Hmmm… Hammer, Cranial Saw, WD40, Drugs, Necronomicon, Bowling Ball,
Open Mind…

“In Philip K. Dick We Trust”

“I’m a GENIUS! I want to dispute sentence structure with SUSAN SONTAG!”

Now Includes: “a Strange Fractal Quality that Self-Organizes across All
Planes”

Dis is da Slowest Fuckin’ McDonalds I evah bin in. And I bin all ovah
de whirld.

” .Not All Who Wander are Lost. ”

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Happy B-day Howard
Date: February 27, 2003 at 9:25:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Howard,

We don’t know each other beyond this list. I know your face, I doubt you know mine. You changed my life. I am forever grateful. Happy Birthday!! 60 years young!! A great time to start something new.

Sincerely,
Randy Hencken

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC May Ibogaine Forum Draft
Date: February 27, 2003 at 9:11:05 PM EST
To: Flashback Books <flashbks@earthlink.net>
Cc: Kenneth Alper <kra1@nyu.edu>, “Laurie Mischley” <lauriemischley@attbi.com>, hsl123@aol.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 2:12 PM -0800 2/10/03, Flashback Books wrote:
Thinking it over, I don’t know any individuals in NY who would be interested
in the ibogaine forum. But you know, the Drug Policy Alliance, the leading
reform group, moved their offices there from SF. www.drugpolicy.org
They put on speaker events there and in SF so maybe you can link up with
them and get publicity. Then I remember a place way downtown called The
Open Center.

I have very few roots in NYC any longer, since my folks passed way, and
rarely go back there.

Good luck with it.
Mike

Well, keep it in mind. We expect to draw people from the entire east coast. If you know just one person who wants to attend or present there, do not hesitate to let me know. If we do anything more on the W. coast (LA is a possibility), I’ll let you know.
I am especially looking for an additional person in the vein of Terence McKenna and Philip Dick for the third panel on Sunday the 4th of May

New York City Conference and Telecast
On Iboga and Ibogaine
May 4 & 5, 2003

@The Walker Stage, 56 Walker St.

PROPOSED DRAFT AGENDA
Sunday, May 4. 2003, noon to 8 pm

12:00 noon – 12:45 pm
Registration $20

12:45 pm – 2:30 pm
Traditional Healing and Religious Practice

Laurent Sazy
Marendi
Awolowo Johnson
Discussion

2:30 pm – 3:30 pm
Break

3:30 pm – 5:30 pm
Treatment Providers
Sara Glatt*
Eric Taub
Patrick Kroupa
Samuel Waizmann*
Howard Lotsof
Marco Resinovik*
Discussion

5:45pm to 8pm

Ibogaine and the Search for Lost Sacraments
Ron Sala, Universalist Unitarian*
Charles Kater, Friends of Bishop Pike*
Frank Morales, Episcopalian
discussion

Monday, May 5, 2003, 10am to 6pm

1:45 pm – 3:00 PM
Lunch

3:00 pm – 5:15pm
Politics and Availability
Dana Beal, cures not wars
Vic Hernandez, PhD act up*
Bob Sisko Addiction Research Institute*
Ric Doblin, MAPS*
Discussion

5:15pm – 6:00pm
Final Wrap-up Panel

The Monday session will be attended by representatives of various city and state agencies..
————————-
*Invited but not confirmed

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: February 27, 2003 at 9:02:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The messages. The one I found so far, there are more then 10 total.

.:vector:.

— Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Michael Synergy <synergy9_11@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:13:07 -0700 (PDT)

Testing. If this message goes through more then once I’m sorry but I
am
having problems mailing from yahoo lately. I hit send and freezes or
I hit
send and it sends 5 or 10 copies. I think it is starting to fall
apart
because millions of people moved from hotmail here when they started
asking
for money at hotmail, now they are starting the same thing on yahoo
and
lycos. Maybe its time to move mail somewhere else again.

Indra you’re saying is extract from the root of taberanthe iboga
which has
many other active alkaloids which are not found in ibogaine hcl.
What are
these alkaloids and do they make any difference? If I’m asking
something to
which there isn’t a exact answer, I understand that, but ibogaine
hcl is
what all the experiments being written in the science journals are
being
done with so I’m lost. What testing has been done with the extract.
I’m not
challenging you only trying to understand what basis your statement
is made
from.

The extract has a different pharmacodynamic action.It may be taken in
small
amounts over extended periods of time to relieve fatigue and/or
opiod withdrawal symptoms.Specifically,when it comes to Methadone
withdrawals,(which can be quite unbearable and long-lasting)the
extract has
been proven to be far superionr to Ibogaine HCL,(which to the best of
my
knowledge is not advisable to use in repeated high dosages),and the
inner
journey seems to feel more mellow and benign to the
clients,who,furthermore,can be treated in non-clinical settings
without the
use of electronic measuring devices and other fancy gadgets of the
“scientific” disciplines.The Pygmy and other tribes have used this
stuff
for millennia in the treatment of sleeping sickness and so it should
be
quite safe and if you get too much you will throw it up.There was one

fatality reported in London where rumour has it that the man choked
to death
from his own vomit while the original coroner’s report wrote about an
inner
hemorrage due to Hepatitis C,but I have never ever heard of anyone
else
having any problems with the stuff except the seasickness and the
sometimes
very intense long-lasting introspective mood of the journey in the
high
dosage range,which usually can be alleviated by the skilled
psychedelic
guide who has tried the stuff before giving it to someone else.This I

believe to be imperative for good results in its therapeutic use,and
that,I
believe, goes for the entire family of mind-revealing substances from
the
plant kingdom,ancient & modern,in clinical as well as ritual
settings.

Why is taking more then 1,000mg of ibogaine hcl toxic or dangerous?
Haven’t
people who detoxed with ibogaine taken amounts nearly twice that in
order
to do it and come out ok?
To illustrate this let us take an example,coffee beans.Coffee can be

considered to be an extract of coffee beans.Drinking coffee is one
thing,downing caffeine tablets en masse is somewhat different…
I don’t know,man I never administered the HCL,but I have been giving
away
some twenty-five kiloes of the extract since 1985 and my friends did
not
give it to rats.

The ibogaine fatalities that have been recorded were all with hcl?

As far as I know,yes,with the exception of the above-mentioned case.

_Synergy_

I hope that this may bring some clarity.May virtue increase.Soon.

cordially,Carl W.

Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Carl Waltenburg
To: ibogalab@hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:42:24 +0100 (BST)

Dear friends
Since there seems to be a great deal of confusion on
the Net as to what is what I would like to make a
comment to the statement attached below.The book I
came across when I returned from the Kilimanjaro was
not Schultes’&Hofmann’s “Plants of the gods”.It was
their “botany and chemistry of hallucinogens”.Apart
from correcting that error the statement deserves some
further clarification…
What is “Indra”?
“Indra” was the name chosen for an internet shop
selling ethnobotanical specialties for shamanic use.
I happened to know the guys who started the shop and
gave them some of my Iboga extract so that they could
make it commercially available.
I am not so happy with the way that went down.Although
they surely distributed substantial amounts of the
stuff,I did not see much of any benign influence from
their endeavour,(nor did I see any money coming my way
from providing the stuff to them in the first place).
It stands to reason,when I view the episode in
retrospect,that entheogens and sacred plants and their
congeners should not be handled by people whose only
religion is money,whose only incentive is profit and
who approach me with an intent to GET whateveritis
from me to take personal advantage of the situation.
The Iboga extract that was released to the world
through this conduit was,however,remarkably safe and
sort of tailor-made for the elimination of addictive
demands and applicable over a wide variety of
drug-related problematiques.Crystalline Ibogaine HCL
is to this extract somewhat like taking ONE active
ingredient out of a plant with at least EIGHTEEN
different active ingredients.You end up with a
different pharmacodynamic profile,and also something
quite toxic in the dosages proposed (e.g.1000
milligrams) and hence impossible to administer under
any but highly supervised clinical settings.
Considering the popularity of another historically
known Iboga extract called “Lambarene” in the early
days of the 20th century,experience shows that this is
a promising field indeed,but only as good as the
players in it…
cordially,Carl W.

From: vector6@space.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)

ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
Reply-to: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: vector6@space.com
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?

This doesn’t answer what indra is exactly, if it’s
still any good after being stored for so long and what
potency is left in it. But like almost everything at
least some of the answers are on the internet and you
can find them using google 🙂

.:vector:.

Reprinted from:
http://www.ridgetelnet.com/~jenks/ibogaine/121299.html

Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:24:43 EST
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg”
Subject: Re: indra ibo(beginning)

In a message dated 12/11/99 10:48:50 AM,
ibogalab@hotmail.com (Carl) wrote:

I have been working with the Iboga alkaloids over
the last sixteen years

Carl,

What precipitated your work with ibogaine? How did
you come to it? Please
be only as open as you feel comfortable in being.

Thanks.

Howard

Well,Howard it is a very long story,I guess it started
with being born into a family where visionary plants
and drugs was part of the cultural heritage,and
literature in that field was
abundant.Huxley’s”Island”,Baudelaire’s”the artificial
paradises”de Ropp’s “drugs and the mind” etc. was my
childhood literature,my father was a book publisher
and translator and a journalist with a strong
revolutionary impact on contemporary society
throughout the 1960’s and my school years in the late
sixties were heavily laced with psychedelic drugs and
social protest,the Vietnam war being what it was and
youth culture being what it was…
I first came across the Iboga plant when I returned
from a soujourn with the medicine men of Tanzania
,Kenya and Uganda in the Kilimanjaro area (doing some
highly classified magic that was part of overthrowing
the Idi Amin dictatorship),finding dr Hofmann’s and dr
Schultes’ elegant volume “Plants of the Gods”.Then,as
I stated earlier,I was working with numerous medicinal
plants in a pharmaceutical house,and the Iboga plant
was one of them.At that time,we considered it to be a
rather wild and rough trip with a lot of undesirable
side effects,so I set out to “tame” this wild spirit
into something more manageable,as I intuitively felt
that here was something with a tremendous healing
potential.In the same time period Christiania Freetown
had a severe problem with hard drug abuse,criminal
biker gangs fighting over street level drug market
control,heavily armed maniacs, and a lot of police
brutality.The scene was disgusting,so the Psychedelic
Movement decided to make the entire arsenal of
visionary plants and drugs readily available at street
level,on the principle that on a truly free market
good drugs will drive out the bad,and the Iboga
extract was one of the materials employed in this
endeavour.It was a successful operation,and Chritiania
Freetown has remained a zone entirely free from hard
drugs like opiates,cocaine, speed etc.to this day, and
violence is rare,although there are some problems with
alcohol and tourism…
To acheive consensus on “no hard drugs” in a community
is no easy thing and our model may not be universally
applicable,but the principles involved could indeed be
applied worldwide in a more enlightened future.To some
extent there are hopeful signs that visionary plants
and drugs are becoming an accepted part of everyday
reality in the western “civilization”,and that
long-lost profession of being a psychedelic guide will
be back in business, as was the case in the 1950’s and
early60’s,with a new role to play in using the Iboga
alkaloids in therapy and counseling.In this spirit,I
will do what I can,as much as I can, as fast as I
can…

Cordially,Carl

On Mon, 08 April 2002, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com wrote

Actually, this is a very good question. Heroin is
less dangerous
than morphine which is less dangerous than codeine.
For people
who need codeine, why not prescribe really small
amounts of
heroin instead? The answer is that drug laws make no
sense and
doctors are mostly fools. (I used to teach physics
to pre-meds; it
was a real eye-opener. BTW: I just got word of my
first student
becoming a license physician.)

Francis

On 7 Apr 2002, at 23:20, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM,
synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:

Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it
answered my question.
What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and
if they broke it down
from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that
instead of turning it
into HCL? Is this some company making it right
now or what. I’m lost. What
I mean is what is the reason, why make this when
you can get HCL from it
and what am I buying if I buy indra?

Without giving you a direct response… why does
opium exist and morphine
exist when the manufacturer could go on to make
heroin? I think indra is the
equivalent of a trade name. Indra can be reached
at
. You
might ask them to explain
themselves.

Howard

___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at
http://www.space.com.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games – play chess, backgammon, pool and more

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Note to Howard
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:47:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, you may not have said ‘forgiving’. In the conversation when I was
explaining ibogaine’s apparent compatability with all the different types of
people with individual physiologies, mental states, etc. and producing
desirable results in each without any apparent harm to them (even as we have
treated people with HEP C, MS, and other diseases), you mused that it was
amazing how ibogaine can do these things without significant
contra-indications. Of course, you warned me in the same conversation that
‘Its the first one that doesn’t go right that will create serious problems
for you.’ and you worried about me.

Thats what I meant when I drew that word out of the conversation.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: <hslotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

In a message dated 2/27/03 4:34:34 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning
it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you
were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is
your
sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract
will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe,
any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Marc,

Sorry to this matter and I might chalk it to memory lapses from
chemotherapy
on my part but, I have no recollection of indicating the INDRA extract as
“forgiving”. It is not my language and I have no practical experience
with
the INDRA product so I doubt I would have provided that particular
comment.
I know how busy you must be and I myself have found that I cannot quite
identify who said what on more than a single occasion.

In case there is any concern, this is not an attack on Marc.

Concerning this list recently, every list I have been on during my list
history of about ten years periodically goes a bit amuck. I think that
Brett
Calabrese’s post “Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks” of
this
date, 2.27.03, begins to address the value of all providers and the
understanding of ibogaine therapy and the therapies they have made
available.

And, Marc, in case I did make the statement that I have denied, I hope you
will be as forgiving as the INDRA product.

With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. I’m amazed.

Howard

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:49:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wondered exactly who the ‘extractor’ guy is. Thats
gotta be an interesting story, the history of that
extract and how it came to be.

http://www.ibogaine.org/history.html

under Denmark: “a 44 kg supply of alkaloid extract from
500 kg of Tabernanthe iboga root bark”.

Also discussion on these lists between me and Carl
on preserving the secrets of the extraction method.

Bill

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:38:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

regards on the birthday thing too.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Happy Birthday!

Peace out and smoke out 🙂
Curtis

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:10:50 -0800 Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>> With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. I’m amazed.
>
>Happy Birthday, Howard!
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:38:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wondered exactly who the ‘extractor’ guy is. Thats gotta be an interesting story, the history of that extract and how it came to be.

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some good-intended criticism 😉

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL. (Cordially, Carl! 😉

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:
Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine), named after the man who extracted it from Iboga plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:21:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. I’m amazed.

Happy birthday =)

==========================================================================
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        –               www.lsdrecords.com |
|                                                                        |
|                  ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds…               |
————————————————————————–

From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 7:14:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Happy Birthday!

Peace out and smoke out 🙂
Curtis

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:10:50 -0800 Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. I’m amazed.

Happy Birthday, Howard!

Bill

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] wising up the marks…..
Date: February 27, 2003 at 7:12:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bro, Carl W. posts to this list or he did last time was last year. His name isn’t indra, that’s what the big ibo batch of extract he made is called now.

There is something I must say here and hope that you think about it. There are a lot of people who talk here and a lot of them are disturbed and a lot of shit gets talked about. Mostly not about Mash too much because then Patrick starts up. She is this evil person. No, she’s not. She replies to email, she never replies about anything personal when I ask something about Patrick except saying she loves him and that’s her son. He defends her. At San Francisco I finally got it, they’re both like the same person, very arrogant, very brilliant, very crazy people. But they’re people, they care about each other is obvious, they are f**ked up people, but good people. That’s a part of it. The other part is neither one of them talks bullshit. She knows science, patrick knows addiction and bro does he ever know ibogaine and psychedelics, computers too 😉 And that goes for Brett, who is another nut but I always feel there is someone in there. He posts facts about things he has done or un
derstands, if he doesn’t know he says he doesn’t know. Dana Beal is one of the biggest crazies I’ve ever anywhere but he’s another person who is very crazy, but you get the sense of someone in there and you can’t help but like him even if he is talking about time travel. Howard is a great person. Sara posts some strange things but she also does not talk bullshit and maybe she has a different angle on how things work and how to guide people through it. Randy too is real and even the doctor from mexico who I dissed out by accident some months ago replied to me and there is a person there, I had respect that he stood up for himself and he was right. Everyone here is in some way not normal I think they wouldn’t be here if they were.

What I’ve never seen before anywhere is someone who started asking questions on this list last fall and didn’t know anything, now guiding people and giving advice. When what you’re saying with authority is not right. You don’t have any of the facts but keep answering. You disrespect people who have knowledge you don’t and contribute their time and help people here. It may be a angry list sometimes, but its also a informative one full of people who understand what theyre saying. If you post how you are dosing people and what you do then you’re sharing what you’re learning with other people and that is very honorable and commendable bro. But telling people there is some movie, then telling Carla she didn’t do ibogaine because that’s not what she saw, giving people ibo in dark rooms and explaining what its supposed to be like.

Bro what I want to say to you is that its starting to sound real creepy. It feels like you have no interest in ibogaine at all but you want to take ownership of it. Of course people are going to say you do good things because you’re giving it away. But its starting to feel like come here little girl, want some candy?

I’m only waiting for the zombie army of people you’ve given ibo to to rise up wearing Marc Emry tshirts and selling flowers.

Bro, do you even smoke pot or just make alot of millions from it and stick a joint in your mouth when there is a photo op?

You are very much starting to weird me out. I dont need 3 of your assistants to reply to me explaining what you really meant. But why not stick to saying what you do know and what you’ve learned instead of whatever it is that youre trying to do. I think its too late to own ibogaine. If you ever did it you’d know you can’t do that anyway.

If you want to help people then why not do that. I thought that posting information and sharing what youre doing is great but the past days are starting to be like the twilight zone and this place was already the twilight zone before you got here but not a sinister episode only a weird one.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:55:12 -0800 paul jackamo <pauljackamo@hotmail.com> wrote:
Greetings all

Have read the recent exchanges with interest and like everyone else,
i just
need to throw a few thoughts into the mindvox infosphere.

Marc – There is no such thing as the “ibogaine experience” – it
doesnt exist
outside of semantic space.What exists are people who have experiences
with
ibogaine – a crucial difference.
As Brett said, you may be setting yourself up for a fall if you
discount
the complexity and diversity of a given experience.
What happens when (and it will happen) someone has an experience
that isnt
“a movie of their life”,no “screen”, no childhood memories, no
biographical/personal data at all – have they had the “wrong” experience
? – are they having an “incorrect” vision – do they become iboga
heretics ?

observer/observed)- what i got was something else entirely,no
personal/biographical data – and like most junkies, i had a pretty
fucked up
childhood so it wasnt for a lack of material to draw upon 😉
I did feel when i came round that i had somehow “failed” until i
started
reading up on others experiences and speaking to Brett and other
people on
this list and i realised i hadnt failed.
What each individual experiences on ibogaine is unique to them and
the
content of the experience varies greatly with each experience.
My second experience was completely different to the first in a
way ive
never experienced with any other empathogen.

transforming entity , spiralling in complexity. Its use changes

constantly.People transform its use/ritual context constantly –
it flows.
To say that you have the optimum treatment modality in terms of
addiction
therapy is just plain arrogance.
Having said that, i think what you are doing is way cool, i wish
we had
something similar over here in england.
Many people dont have a place they can go to like ITH and/or can
afford Mash
et al, myself included.
For me, this listserve was a lifeline in my quest for ibogaine and
freedom
from addiction in terms of the support and advice i recieved so
when you say
:

“I am grateful its myself,linette…..who are helping people here
and not
some of the people on this listserve”

You are doing a disservice to the people who contribute their time
and
energy to the list.IMO.

I think what Marko was getting at is that you are dealing with serious
shit
here,ibogaine is extremely weird,powerful,complex and can as easily
operate
in and influence your space-time continuum in ways you may find
perplexing
and occasionally devastating.It bites!

You are doing incredible work,but remember, to paraphrase Nietzche:
“The deeper you look into ibogaine,the deeper it looks into you”

respect to you

paul.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 7:10:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. I’m amazed.

Happy Birthday, Howard!

Bill

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 7:02:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/27/03 4:34:34 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning
it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you
were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your
sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract
will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe,
any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Marc,

Sorry to this matter and I might chalk it to memory lapses from chemotherapy
on my part but, I have no recollection of indicating the INDRA extract as
“forgiving”. It is not my language and I have no practical experience with
the INDRA product so I doubt I would have provided that particular comment.
I know how busy you must be and I myself have found that I cannot quite
identify who said what on more than a single occasion.

In case there is any concern, this is not an attack on Marc.

Concerning this list recently, every list I have been on during my list
history of about ten years periodically goes a bit amuck. I think that Brett
Calabrese’s post “Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks” of this
date, 2.27.03, begins to address the value of all providers and the
understanding of ibogaine therapy and the therapies they have made available.

And, Marc, in case I did make the statement that I have denied, I hope you
will be as forgiving as the INDRA product.

With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. I’m amazed.

Howard

From: “paul jackamo” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] wising up the marks (part two)
Date: February 27, 2003 at 6:15:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Note :
If anyone got halfway through my last mail and saw that i called ibogaine an “empathogen”,dont jump down my throat.I should have used
“entheogen”.Having said that,it has empathic qualities but not in a cute fluffy mdma/mda sense.i’ll shut up……..

paul.

PS : Am i the only person to be fascinated by these facts:

A)nicotine produces small ammounts of norharman when smoked

B) Norharman can be created by heating L-Trytophan at boiling point.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger – fast, easy and FREE! http://messenger.msn.co.uk

From: “paul jackamo” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] wising up the marks…..
Date: February 27, 2003 at 5:55:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Greetings all

Have read the recent exchanges with interest and like everyone else, i just need to throw a few thoughts into the mindvox infosphere.

Marc – There is no such thing as the “ibogaine experience” – it doesnt exist outside of semantic space.What exists are people who have experiences with ibogaine – a crucial difference.
As Brett said, you may be setting yourself up for a fall if you discount
the complexity and diversity of a given experience.
What happens when (and it will happen) someone has an experience that isnt “a movie of their life”,no “screen”, no childhood memories, no biographical/personal data at all – have they had the “wrong” experience
? – are they having an “incorrect” vision – do they become iboga heretics ?

I feel really strongly about this.Ive only done ibogaine twice (HCL not Indra at 15mg/kg and 25mg/kg respectively) and because of what I read : ” a screen will appear,scenes from your childhood will float by,blah,blah,blah”, i was expecting some kind of psychedelic movie(its the subliminal “screen” metaphor,it implies some kind of cognitive distance between the observer/observed)- what i got was something else entirely,no personal/biographical data – and like most junkies, i had a pretty fucked up childhood so it wasnt for a lack of material to draw upon 😉
I did feel when i came round that i had somehow “failed” until i started reading up on others experiences and speaking to Brett and other people on this list and i realised i hadnt failed.
What each individual experiences on ibogaine is unique to them and the content of the experience varies greatly with each experience.
My second experience was completely different to the first in a way ive never experienced with any other empathogen.

The main point is that nobody “owns” ibogaine nor the definative treatment modality.My intuition is that the iboga root has been used for thousands of years,its morphogenetic field is just so “rich” for want of a better word.
It has at least 150 years of documented use.Ibogaine itself as we all know has been around for 100 years. It exists as a self-organising/self transforming entity , spiralling in complexity. Its use changes constantly.People transform its use/ritual context constantly – it flows.
To say that you have the optimum treatment modality in terms of addiction therapy is just plain arrogance.
Having said that, i think what you are doing is way cool, i wish we had something similar over here in england.
Many people dont have a place they can go to like ITH and/or can afford Mash et al, myself included.
For me, this listserve was a lifeline in my quest for ibogaine and freedom
from addiction in terms of the support and advice i recieved so when you say
:

“I am grateful its myself,linette…..who are helping people here and not some of the people on this listserve”

You are doing a disservice to the people who contribute their time and energy to the list.IMO.

I think what Marko was getting at is that you are dealing with serious shit here,ibogaine is extremely weird,powerful,complex and can as easily operate in and influence your space-time continuum in ways you may find perplexing and occasionally devastating.It bites!

You are doing incredible work,but remember, to paraphrase Nietzche:
“The deeper you look into ibogaine,the deeper it looks into you”

respect to you

paul.

_________________________________________________________________
Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://messenger.msn.co.uk

From: “Søren Løvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 5:44:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would also like to thank Brett,for your indsight,and good advices.
I HAVE found a good place,with a “pro” sitter(s).
The idea of doing it home with my mom,or a friend (without any Ibo knowledge),was not good,so I have found the best alternative I could possibly find.
Thanks man.
Soren from Denmark
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some good-intended criticism 😉

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL. (Cordially, Carl! 😉

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:
Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine), named after the man who extracted it from Iboga plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 5:26:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some good-intended criticism 😉

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL. (Cordially, Carl! 😉

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:
Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine), named after the man who extracted it from Iboga plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 4:22:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine), named after the man who extracted it from Iboga plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:

Richard,
>
> Sorry about politics/religion/culture debate… People
> often take their ibogaine methods very seriously and
> personally, and no wonder after seeing it work.
> Ibogaine is unlike anything else on earth I can think
> of, or took. Ibo, just by itself isn’t (I should say
> likely) going to do much more than a good detox,
> unless you go with it and want it. We all mean well
> and I think that a bit of it is many treatment
> providers are in different nitches to some extent,
> clients are different, cultures are different. Patient
> X may be happy with MASH and swear by her, so will
> MASH – and need her style of tx. Patient Y (say me) is
> fine with just detox me, break the cycle and I will
> take it from there – I knew how to be clean. The IBO
> does work like a charm, so long as the other pieces
> come into play, you do your part/whatever else you
> need.
>
> No-one has a monopoly on love, it comes in many
> different flavors and styles. Thinking someone elses
> love isn’t right because it isn’t something you do, or
> don’t understand, OR because of vast cultural
> differences and mis-understandings isn’t part of
> ibogaine, it is part of being human. And then
> sometimes you have gotten hit over and over with
> something, then some loving person comes along and
> because of prior experience, we jump to conclusions
> too quickly… the defenses go up, old buttons are
> pressed… In truth, we do love and respect each other
> for the most part but seems that in the iboga world
> people do take things too seriously (negatively) and
> heads do butt.
>
> Let me put it this way.
>
> I have done ibogaine, it saved my life, gave me hope
> and allowed me to go back and remake my understanding
> of events and its effect on me. It is powerful but
> very subtle, don’t like a vision, a blink or a thought
> will stop it. It isn’t so rough as even I sometimes
> make it out when I say it is, mostly it is just long,
> non-stop, one after the other, with nice side effects
> like ataxia, severe motion sensitivity (don’t
> move)/nausea maybe vomiting, photophobia, sound
> sensitivity, some visual distortions and this strob
> like/magnesium flares/tracers (white), kind of cool
> but dizzying and get old (too much). Basically, stay
> pretty still, flat on your back is usually best. If
> you move, keep your head in-line with your body and
> slowly (I said slowly which means you will likely need
> help at first) sit-up/move… Telling you is one
> thing, doing it is another and many people who you say
> “move slow” will BOUNCE UP… and then land flat on
> their backs in some shade of green. Some people
> experience some anxiety, mostly on the way up and
> mostly >from HCL (much less with Indra but happens), I
> usually split my dose to soften it a bit (it is
> uncomfortable, hot horrible). Usually once people are
> at altitude most if not all the anxiety passes, just
> relax and deep breath nice and slow. Few tid-bits, I
> sometimes get tired of the “trip” (for lack of a
> better description) and get-up, shake it off, use to
> go have a smoke but usually people are pretty
> flattened by it, for whatever reason it does not
> happen to me (well, lots of practice being wacked out
> and trying to function I guess…). As for safty, as
> long as you follow procedure/protocol and are in good
> health you are pretty safe. Pretty much any treatment
> provider is going to follow (more or less) the basics,
> fast, maybe an anti-emetic, a tester dose followed by
> a main dose(or sometimes split into several doses).
>
> Success depends on your attitude and what you do with
> the opportunity. If you want ibogaine to fix you I
> suggest you go cop some good drugs someplace and have
> at it till you are ready. Recovery requires work, you
> have to want it, ibogaine is not going to make you
> want it – well not usually anyway. Here is the deal
> (and Marc keyed right in on it); You do the stuff and
> in a couple days (when you come down, mostly) you get
> high – (don’t worry, makes sense to me), which
> basically means you feel shitty for a few days then
> the door opens, the ibo-glow sets in (if it does),
> some people have transient depression, the better
> after-glow feeling/mood is generally with HCL (not
> Indra as much). NOW is the time, here is your window,
> the door is open, if you start NEW, you will have new,
> if you do go back to the same old shit and do the same
> old thing, you are very likely to be doing the same
> old thing (drugs) in short order. Look it, it is like
> all the programed wires got all pulled out, the
> momentum in the direction you WERE going just got the
> wind out of it, now it is up to you (ultimately) to
> take advantage. You have to do new things, sometimes
> deal/confront old ones (which happens without the
> “FEELINGS” that keep you from doing it, the ego is
> like gone, stuff like “water under the bridge”
> disappears for the most part). SO, no matter how you
> do it, YOU have to change but this time most (not all)
> the effort is out of it. THe ibo stays (nor-ibogaine)
> in your system for a very VERY long time after doing
> ibogaine, still providing some protection – as it will
> diminish cravings, alter the HIGH (so you like it less
> in most cases), things that were difficult, suddenly
> get easier, health improves, I feel like got an
> overdose of LIFE FORCE after. THis fades over months,
> I have actually felt ibogaine still in me 11 months
> after last dosing (the longest I went). It kind of
> feels a little like an SSRI (but better) in you – but
> no negative side effects, some people though are
> annoyed by less sleep they will need or feel too
> stimulated, most of the overt “feeling” of it passes
> in a few weeks. There could be artifacts for weeks or
> months, sometimes people get flashes of light at night
> for a while after. Doing something like Yoga and
> meditating will bring “IT” back a bit (ie going into
> the “ETHER” is easier and you can FEEL the ibo more
> during something relaxing/spiritual like
> Yoga/meditation… Being an addict, you may have some
> residual withdrawals, I am a fan of small doses if ibo
> (1/2gm-1gm Indra or 100-200mg HCL typically) after a
> main dose for people who are having a hard time. Now
> it may take a while for you to feel right, this is
> especially true if you have an addiction like
> methadone, like a low-grade withdrawal for a while,
> weeks, sometimes months. Often a 2nd treatment will do
> the trick. Some people (like me) do their 2nd dose
> sometime down the road, I did 8 months, some people do
> it 6 months or so – that is about when it gets weak
> (the nor-ibo you are still carrying in you ). Now all
> those “doses”, I don’t think I am brain damaged, well
> not any more than usual. I am no longer addicted,
> stopped coke, alcohol and nicotine AND (thank you)
> have a nasty side effect, opiate pain meds disagree
> with me (I never had a big opiate problem, it went
> with the coke…). Pretty much, I have no desire to
> use or now days even smoke (7 months now), just brief
> moments now and then.
> Now, all that said, I have done ibo, oh, lots of
> times. Basically every 6-12 months I like a little
> tune-up – which means I put it off as long as I can.
> It is big-time YUCK, not horrible, just long, arduous,
> gotta block out a weekend pretty much though these
> days I recover quicker. So, if it was that bad
> (horrible) why would I do it again and again? I take
> ibogaine for what it does for me, not for how it feels
> when I take it (no one does, least not in high doses,
> small doses it is kind of nice – FOR SUPER
> CLEAN/HEALTHY me, you are unlikely to enjoy it). Lets
> see, if you are doing Indra, it is smoother, softer,
> more “real”, at usual dosages (ie 5gm) not as HIGH as
> a full blown anti-addictive dose of HCL. HCL comes on
> stronger, is a bit more cartoon like, not as
> “spiritual” or real as Indra, sort of rips into issues
> with a crow-bar and jack-hammer where Indra is more of
> this parable story that makes sense to you (softer). I
> can’t say exactly what will happen if at all vision
> wise, the only thing to fear is your fear (get over it
> and relax), things you want to hold onto, your ego,
> your issues, they don’t want to leave… Ibo will do
> this IN YOUR FACE thing with them that is totally
> non-threatening, like looking at things without having
> an ego (at all), seen from many perspectives all at
> the same time (including someone elses). Sometimes
> there are tears, emotions, smiles.
>
> My advice, follow the rules (protocol/procedure), have
> a plan to change your life and do it, sitting there
> waiting for the ibo to do it for you is a real bad
> idea. And just do it, thinking about it generally has
> negative results – from personal experience. I dislike
> ibo and could easily awfulize about what is to come
> (it is nasty, like if someone came to you with a spoon
> of Castor Oil… but bigger, I mean epecac is more fun
> than ibogaine), the only way is to just swallow the
> suckers and let it happen, then I am fine, don’t
> think, do.
> Brett
>

—– Original Message —–
From: Highlander35739@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

hi mark, im stuart , i would like some advice please? im a heroin addict looking at takink ibogaine , i live in inverness in scotland and am using 1/4 of a gram per day im 10stone medium built and fairly fit. i know how to get it but do i get the chemical extract phosphate or whatever its called or root bark powder or root extract powder, how much do i need to use? ive taken lots of l.s.d and hallucinogens so know what to expect. do i use anything with it?, if so where do i obtain it? i’ll look forward to hearing from you and thank you in anticipation of your reply. all the best……Stuart.

From: “Sandra k” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] for Brett
Date: February 27, 2003 at 3:20:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brett,

Thanks for your insight… *smile*

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:50:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks

Richard,

Sorry about politics/religion/culture debate… People
often take their ibogaine methods very seriously and
personally, and no wonder after seeing it work.
Ibogaine is unlike anything else on earth I can think
of, or took. Ibo, just by itself isn’t (I should say
likely) going to do much more than a good detox,
unless you go with it and want it. We all mean well
and I think that a bit of it is many treatment
providers are in different nitches to some extent,
clients are different, cultures are different. Patient
X may be happy with MASH and swear by her, so will
MASH – and need her style of tx. Patient Y (say me) is
fine with just detox me, break the cycle and I will
take it from there – I knew how to be clean. The IBO
does work like a charm, so long as the other pieces
come into play, you do your part/whatever else you
need.

No-one has a monopoly on love, it comes in many
different flavors and styles. Thinking someone elses
love isn’t right because it isn’t something you do, or
don’t understand, OR because of vast cultural
differences and mis-understandings isn’t part of
ibogaine, it is part of being human. And then
sometimes you have gotten hit over and over with
something, then some loving person comes along and
because of prior experience, we jump to conclusions
too quickly… the defenses go up, old buttons are
pressed… In truth, we do love and respect each other
for the most part but seems that in the iboga world
people do take things too seriously (negatively) and
heads do butt.

Let me put it this way.

I have done ibogaine, it saved my life, gave me hope
and allowed me to go back and remake my understanding
of events and its effect on me. It is powerful but
very subtle, don’t like a vision, a blink or a thought
will stop it. It isn’t so rough as even I sometimes
make it out when I say it is, mostly it is just long,
non-stop, one after the other, with nice side effects
like ataxia, severe motion sensitivity (don’t
move)/nausea maybe vomiting, photophobia, sound
sensitivity, some visual distortions and this strob
like/magnesium flares/tracers (white), kind of cool
but dizzying and get old (too much). Basically, stay
pretty still, flat on your back is usually best. If
you move, keep your head in-line with your body and
slowly (I said slowly which means you will likely need
help at first) sit-up/move… Telling you is one
thing, doing it is another and many people who you say
“move slow” will BOUNCE UP… and then land flat on
their backs in some shade of green. Some people
experience some anxiety, mostly on the way up and
mostly from HCL (much less with Indra but happens), I
usually split my dose to soften it a bit (it is
uncomfortable, hot horrible). Usually once people are
at altitude most if not all the anxiety passes, just
relax and deep breath nice and slow. Few tid-bits, I
sometimes get tired of the “trip” (for lack of a
better description) and get-up, shake it off, use to
go have a smoke but usually people are pretty
flattened by it, for whatever reason it does not
happen to me (well, lots of practice being wacked out
and trying to function I guess…). As for safty, as
long as you follow procedure/protocol and are in good
health you are pretty safe. Pretty much any treatment
provider is going to follow (more or less) the basics,
fast, maybe an anti-emetic, a tester dose followed by
a main dose(or sometimes split into several doses).

Success depends on your attitude and what you do with
the opportunity. If you want ibogaine to fix you I
suggest you go cop some good drugs someplace and have
at it till you are ready. Recovery requires work, you
have to want it, ibogaine is not going to make you
want it – well not usually anyway. Here is the deal
(and Marc keyed right in on it); You do the stuff and
in a couple days (when you come down, mostly) you get
high – (don’t worry, makes sense to me), which
basically means you feel shitty for a few days then
the door opens, the ibo-glow sets in (if it does),
some people have transient depression, the better
after-glow feeling/mood is generally with HCL (not
Indra as much). NOW is the time, here is your window,
the door is open, if you start NEW, you will have new,
if you do go back to the same old shit and do the same
old thing, you are very likely to be doing the same
old thing (drugs) in short order. Look it, it is like
all the programed wires got all pulled out, the
momentum in the direction you WERE going just got the
wind out of it, now it is up to you (ultimately) to
take advantage. You have to do new things, sometimes
deal/confront old ones (which happens without the
“FEELINGS” that keep you from doing it, the ego is
like gone, stuff like “water under the bridge”
disappears for the most part). SO, no matter how you
do it, YOU have to change but this time most (not all)
the effort is out of it. THe ibo stays (nor-ibogaine)
in your system for a very VERY long time after doing
ibogaine, still providing some protection – as it will
diminish cravings, alter the HIGH (so you like it less
in most cases), things that were difficult, suddenly
get easier, health improves, I feel like got an
overdose of LIFE FORCE after. THis fades over months,
I have actually felt ibogaine still in me 11 months
after last dosing (the longest I went). It kind of
feels a little like an SSRI (but better) in you – but
no negative side effects, some people though are
annoyed by less sleep they will need or feel too
stimulated, most of the overt “feeling” of it passes
in a few weeks. There could be artifacts for weeks or
months, sometimes people get flashes of light at night
for a while after. Doing something like Yoga and
meditating will bring “IT” back a bit (ie going into
the “ETHER” is easier and you can FEEL the ibo more
during something relaxing/spiritual like
Yoga/meditation… Being an addict, you may have some
residual withdrawals, I am a fan of small doses if ibo
(1/2gm-1gm Indra or 100-200mg HCL typically) after a
main dose for people who are having a hard time. Now
it may take a while for you to feel right, this is
especially true if you have an addiction like
methadone, like a low-grade withdrawal for a while,
weeks, sometimes months. Often a 2nd treatment will do
the trick. Some people (like me) do their 2nd dose
sometime down the road, I did 8 months, some people do
it 6 months or so – that is about when it gets weak
(the nor-ibo you are still carrying in you ). Now all
those “doses”, I don’t think I am brain damaged, well
not any more than usual. I am no longer addicted,
stopped coke, alcohol and nicotine AND (thank you)
have a nasty side effect, opiate pain meds disagree
with me (I never had a big opiate problem, it went
with the coke…). Pretty much, I have no desire to
use or now days even smoke (7 months now), just brief
moments now and then.
Now, all that said, I have done ibo, oh, lots of
times. Basically every 6-12 months I like a little
tune-up – which means I put it off as long as I can.
It is big-time YUCK, not horrible, just long, arduous,
gotta block out a weekend pretty much though these
days I recover quicker. So, if it was that bad
(horrible) why would I do it again and again? I take
ibogaine for what it does for me, not for how it feels
when I take it (no one does, least not in high doses,
small doses it is kind of nice – FOR SUPER
CLEAN/HEALTHY me, you are unlikely to enjoy it). Lets
see, if you are doing Indra, it is smoother, softer,
more “real”, at usual dosages (ie 5gm) not as HIGH as
a full blown anti-addictive dose of HCL. HCL comes on
stronger, is a bit more cartoon like, not as
“spiritual” or real as Indra, sort of rips into issues
with a crow-bar and jack-hammer where Indra is more of
this parable story that makes sense to you (softer). I
can’t say exactly what will happen if at all vision
wise, the only thing to fear is your fear (get over it
and relax), things you want to hold onto, your ego,
your issues, they don’t want to leave… Ibo will do
this IN YOUR FACE thing with them that is totally
non-threatening, like looking at things without having
an ego (at all), seen from many perspectives all at
the same time (including someone elses). Sometimes
there are tears, emotions, smiles.

My advice, follow the rules (protocol/procedure), have
a plan to change your life and do it, sitting there
waiting for the ibo to do it for you is a real bad
idea. And just do it, thinking about it generally has
negative results – from personal experience. I dislike
ibo and could easily awfulize about what is to come
(it is nasty, like if someone came to you with a spoon
of Castor Oil… but bigger, I mean epecac is more fun
than ibogaine), the only way is to just swallow the
suckers and let it happen, then I am fine, don’t
think, do.
Brett

—
_______________________________________________
Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net

From: Highlander35739@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 27, 2003 at 3:10:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 27, 2003 at 12:50:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Richard,

Let me put it this way.

— thebozman <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk> wrote:
Its Richard from Nottingham…

Here I am ! – two and a half weeks away from my
first ibogaine experience
and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self
hate that is addiction ! I
am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on
this site…….. I am
very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have
decided to go ahead – the
psychoactive properties probably scare me the most
plus the fact that some
people have had negative experiences and fatalities
have occurred – can
anyone help to ease my apprehensions – many
thanks….!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s
remarks

Marc – and Marco

I think there is a little “better than” going on
on
both sides.

Marc, before I forget. You may wish to get a heart
monitor (I think lost a couple emails when my
computer
did the “blue screen of death” thingie). They have
wireless models, an alarm would be good. This way
you
don’t have to disturb their visions. TO that, it
can
be hard to get/stay into them, it was especially
so
for me my first time – it worked just fine anyway.

Marc, there are different ways to take ibo and the
environment, patient/initiate, addiction or not,
to
what?, the dosage, type of ibo, set/setting
(yadda)
make a big difference in the reaction. IMO, you
may be
setting yourself up for a rude awakening by
discounting others with FAR MORE and VARIED and
different experiences than you have. I understand
that
in your enviromnemt things (so far…) have been
this
generic ibo type symptoms that you describe,
sound+light sensitivity, visions (which you place
undue importance in IN THAT, one can have just as
successful/enlightening experience with as without
visions – though differently. As if it is some
kind of
failure not to have them – that is not saying they
are
undesirable either.

We dose them the way we do because it is
neutral.

Which is a good GENERIC place to start, especially
for
an addict. Most of what you are hearing is from
people
who are NOT risks to themselves during the ibo
trip,
people who have done ibo more than once, on their
own
terms – not ones dictated to them BY THE
ENVIRONMENT
(I am not saying you are FORCING them – you
sometimes
are SO THICK), the set/setting – not that most of
them
won’t want deep quiet/no light… that is pretty
standard/general/generic. In your environment
there is
more control, which is a + when dealing with
addicts,
but I certainly don’t need that, neither does any
regular poster here. FYI, After several hours the
sensitivity level turns down a bit, there could
also
be some acustic thing going on where you are that
is
particularly (in your environment/setting) that is
different than others. Also, some places, you are
more
use to sounds, if I did ibo home I am more use to
certain sounds than if I were do do it somewhere
else.
Not all sounds are annoying (relatively speaking),
thunder/lightning/rain (think tropical, big
rain/thunder)… got along pretty well on ibo for
the
sound it was making, quite natural and maybe
fitting
since I am sure people have been taking ibogaine
in
thunderstorms for a very long time.

The patient can request
music, but they never do. They can ask for
anything
they want, but they, we

My first request would be to GET THE FUCK AWAY
WITH
THAT WATER, everytime I puke or piss… Marc, it
may
be in your environment that it works (not that I
agree) but it can be dangerous IMO to force all
that
fluids and simply overkill especially for someone
at
home doing it themselves. People need to be well
hydrated, that is great.

think fortunately, want to be focused on their
‘movie-of-their-life’
experience and resist any and all distractions.

If that toots your horn, have at it. It is nice,
great
even. Maybe, after a few hundred “visions” of
various,
movie, non-movie, stills, zoom types and having
todo
and having nothing to do with “my life” at times
they
got, well, big deal – or sometimes NOT having
visions,
thinking “what, that was it, got cheated”… only
to
find out after that the vision-fewer/less/free
ibogaine trip turned out to be some of my most
successful. Ever think that maybe if someone is
focusing (I am splitting hairs because you are
doing
the same, but don’t know it) all that energy on
seeing
visions, they won’t have enough left for action?
It
was one such, “bla” ibo session of about 12mg/kg
(thought I didn’t do quite enough) that 1 week
later,
I tossed a 28 year old smoking habit and never
looked
back… That was one successful ibo session, not
that
you could tell from the experience.

We don’t impose rules on our patients, they tell
us
what they want. They

That is not what I am hearing, though that is what
you
are saying. You have a rather strict, controlled
environment and that is cool (for you), certainly
got
its +’s.

haven’t want to hear people talking while they
are
concentrating, they don’t
want any background music, they tell us to stop
any
music (later they may
ask for some, but that is rare), they don’t want
to
smell eggs cooking,
incense burning, fireplaces burning or any
distracting/disturbing smell or
sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After
all,
we are here to offer
comfort and assistance to their experience. They
dislike hearing the phone
ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive
to
light and they want it
stopped if it is bright or even nominally
illuminated.

All standard, generic, what people want when they
are
being treated for the first time for the most
part. It
is NOT you are RIGHT and WE are WRONG, it is NOT
we
are RIGHT and you are WRONG – it is in your
situation,
with your patients, who are addicts, where you
are,
with your procedures, with the whole thing that
you
project – that is how it turns out. IN THE
IBOGAINE
WORLD (which is not this tiny microcosm of
ibogaine
treatment that you have, where you are, with the
kind
of ibogaine you use, with your patients, with your
doses, in your environment, with the things YOU
tell
your patients, with the
sounds/smells/longitude/latitude that YOU are
oat…)
people have many varied experiences and reactions
to
ibogaine.

We have a creative environment here. We have art
materials, a guitar,
movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the
forest surrounds us and
they are encouraged to take nature walks,
meditate
on the pier (we have a
dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The
current patient is here for 8
days, this isn’t just ibogaine, this is
hopefully
REINVENTION, and we are
here to help them, not control them. I am
confident
this is already the most
suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of
any
place I have ever read
about, heard about.

To you in your experience, it even sounds great
(to
me) for what you are using it for. I am sure Dr.
Mash
thinks the same thing of her treatment, and Sara
thinks (and does) she is doing a fine job, and
Eric
Taub does a wonderful job too…

There are however things you do (and they do that
you
don’t) that can be of great help TO YOUR CLIENTS
in
particular. Truth, for me, it wouldn’t have done
any
better, I simply did not need it, I was in relapse
and
knew what to do to “get a life” – as in I didn’t
need
you to tell/show me, didn’t need a 2nd treatment
within a month, I didn’t need a “treatment center”
so
Mash wouldn’t have done it either.

Our patients get great care here
and they tell us so.

I’m sure they do and sure you are. I don’t think
anyone disputed that at all.

Also, as to the issue of music, playing music
that
is a favorite of your
past is potentially flawed, after all, our
favorite

And so is your analysis.

music is usually that
with strong emotional associations from our
past.

Well, in my case not, music was never part of my
“past”.

I’m not sure these
patients want the familiar and comforting, they
are

Ya know, again, in your situation with your
patients,
you are “not sure” but obviously seems that way to
you
– then have it it your way. But let me throw this
at
you, one of the reasons I like music is when HCL
comes
on hard, it can be quite uncomfortable (but you
wouldn’t know), so I get myself very relaxed, into
it,
meditation music, till I gain altitude (get UP
there
and settle down). When I say music, I mean very
quiet
stuff. When I say incense, I don’t mean smoke the
whole house, I mean light one, run around the
house
for a few minutes, do the room I will be in (maybe
they don’t like your kind, try Nag Champa
sometime)
and then I put it out and do my thing (ibo), not
stink
up the whole house. Same with sounds, it starts
out
low (for me, with what I am doing ibo for, the way
I
do it) and gets lower, YOU wouldn’t hardly hear it
–
but oops, you wouldn’t know would you? You are
less
sensitive (empathic) to someone on ibo than say my
mate would be or I would be if I were treating
someone… Marc, with a look, a comment, a
movement I
can feel what they feel in a way you will never
know
and never can respond to quite the same way.
Vivian
(my Fiancee) went through the same thing, I
complained
about things like smells and sounds (…) and to
her,
she was being quiet… till she did it. THEN after
she
did it, she knew what I meant and now, if she
needs
to do something she is sensitive to how it will
sound
to me, what level and how delivered will the sound
be
nice or not nice – YOU DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU
HAVE
NOT TRIED IBOGAINE. You say the patients report,
well
great for them but that does not give you first
hand
knowledge – as Marko pointed out, how was her
dinner?

I have never had any patient react to ‘silence’
as
though it is something
sinister as you suggest, Carla.

I understand Carla completely, wonder why?

Your statement is remarkable in that you
obviously
HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
proper ibogaine experience. All our patients

Marc, now you are talking with your head up your
ass
about something you are not qualified to speak
about.

I mean you are doing a great job (rookie, like
that?
didn’t think so) and all but again, you are not
the be
all and end all of iboga knowledge and it is
highly
arrogant of you.

experienced a movie screen/
fast moving motion-picture of their life thats
lasts
for 8 to 30 hours. All
of them, thats what we expect of the treatment.
While this autobiographical
movie of intense proportions is going on, the
patient does not want
interruptions or distractions. They tell us to
be
quiet, no music, no
smells,

Geez, we know, enough already. YOUR VERY LIMITED
(you
repeat, I will repeat) experience is not the sum
total
of ibogaine experiences or the only way it should
be
done. Quite obviously you are sitting here arguing
with a number of people who have had different
experiences (quite successful ones I may add) that
differ from yours – oh, but you didn’t have one,
you
just watched (yes, that was a dig, you do more
than
watch).

PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the
entire time, we can’t
even play music for ourselves. We answer the
phone
outside! (It never snows
here though, so its not so bad)

And (again, I do this cause some are THICKER than
others, you are one) yes, that is pretty generic
ibo
for your class of patients, with the ibo you are
using, in your enviroment, with your procedures,
with
your walls, your floors, your staff… that does
NOT
mean in someone elses environment, someone elses
ibogaine/dose/reason for taking ibo, in some other
kind of patient (eg not addicted/less
addicted…previously have taken ibo…) wouldn’t
want
something different.

Mare LISTEN CLOSELY

Every single ibo experience is different – and I
don’t
give a flying fuck what it looks like to you from
the
outside.

Yes, there are a bunch of rather standard generic
type
symptoms, stuff that happens…

When someone is addicted, fuckecd up, toxic (in
whatever various flavors) it is different than
someone
who is not, someone who is clean, someone who is
happy!!! And generally they (we) would take
somewhat
less ibo (though I have taken more than you use
several times). Then was then, which is not now –
2
different times. It is just like them not having
visions (or fewer) the first time but have them
once
they are cleaner. It will also be different 6
months
down the road (when some start to need another
dose)
and different 1, 2, 3, 4… years down the road.
Marc,
you have no such experience, why are you so dam
thickheaded about it. Sorry but what are you
trying to
do, be a snot-nose, come along, treat 20 people
and
think you know it all? That is going to get you in
trouble my son. Again, NOT THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING
A
WONDERFUL JOB, a service to humanity and all that
stuff, you are (just put your ego somewhere else,
better dose yourself, that’ll do the trick).

Carla, that you have said the following means
the
dose was way too low:

Marc, that means you are inexperienced. Not
everyone
gets visions and they don’t happen 100% of the
time.
POINT, last time I didn’t get them and did a
higher
dose than I had done in a long time. Also, I have
had
“movie” scenes but not always and still got
visions.

And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what
people
like
to write about it but if its going to the
movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

If you want the movie for your own life, with
all
its revelations it can
provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You
can
listen to whatever music
you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga
experience has for you, it
will be much more vital than what playing a
familiar
tune can do for you.

What we provide is a neutral environment that
reflects the person’s needs as
the iboga experience progresses. We take all our
cues from the patient.

As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla,
etc.,
I am grateful its
myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are
helping
people here and not some
of the people on this listserve!

Ya know, there are good people in the world that
know
things that are different than you do, that does
not
mean they are not good people, don’t know stuff.
Maybe
it is you who have the issue and need to look in
the
mirror – but DO NOT DO IBOGAINE. I do not mean to
say
you are wrong/unsuccessful in your methods, hey,
they
work for you, right? Just too bad you don’t want
to
learn something new and everyone else is wrong –
that
is how it sounds Marc.

Brett

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at
carlambarnes@yahoo.com wrote:

Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick
whenever
possible. Save the politician when running for
office
or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem,
anger
management issues are ok as long as the guy is
cute,
you qualify. As long as you don’t hit women,
never
change.

Marc I understand your being a great guy and
helpful
but I’m a little weirded out. I too cant
imagine
doing
ibogaine without some music. I like
alternative
and
some ambient, I don’t like total silence. I
know
youre
trying to do something good but it almost
sounds
like
punishment or something, you stick people into
a
dark
room with nothing to hear or smell and dont
talk
to
them??????? why on earth would you do that? I
dont
know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but
I
love
what flowers and different perfume smells like
when
I’m on ibogaine.

Why do you do that? I dont think one person
who
has
done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like
doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what
people
like
to write about it but if its going to the
movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

I don’t ever attack anyone and I’m not
starting
now
well no I did get upset about the paying
blacks
not to
have children messages a long time ago here,
but
why
on earth do you dose people like that Marc?

Carla B

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without
music
bro. I have got to go strongly with that one.
Dimly
lit room. No mexican or thai food before
either
😉

Other then that Marc please do not start
Patrick
up,
it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the
counterculture. I much much much prefer the
real
Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out
this
wall
of words like he, you and all of your staff
always
like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get
Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in
the
same
room, to figure out what side everyone is on
and
then go run for office or start a PR agency.
Don’t
see how any of you could lose. It’s like
talking
to
teflon. I truly do understand why none of you
are
in
prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before
it
starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of
you
talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a
political conference in the professional
weirdo
zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett
going
off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like
the
verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! 😉
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick
K.
Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800],
[A J
Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you,
and
didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it
could be
construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to
me.
I’m
not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly
all of
whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to
start
arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. But I’m
just
gonna
assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the
planets,
and
it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and
offer
their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining
sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence. Of course LSD will not
get
you
unsprung. Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant,
and
throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused
things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction
with
patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250
people
in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from
that
number… The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an
extremely
wide
spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music,
scents,
and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence
of
ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love
classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? —
in
short, people display
individual preferences. Allowing them this
freedom
appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.
Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients
respond
well
to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
others. Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these
exact
conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know
many
people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from
that
whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a
description
of
my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of
ibogaine. I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and
perhaps
the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech
patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency. And on the
flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems. Oh
well.
C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT
YOU,
or just angry
in
general; nope. I’m having a pretty cool
day,
and I
just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so
I
commented.

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying,
and
radiate that. They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of
whatever
negative headtrip
they’re
in. Well, with crack this doesn’t really
work
out
some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the
vibe,
delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree
about
those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I
commented.
This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is
highly
cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if
you
kill
all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the
TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say
tripping
out,
I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.
Kinda
like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the
level
of
experience.

But… A lotta people don’t necessarily
like,
want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug,
and
listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for
different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips,
more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 27, 2003 at 10:38:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

===== Original Message From “thebozman” <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk> =====
Its Richard from Nottingham…

Here I am ! – two and a half weeks away from my first ibogaine experience
and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self hate that is addiction ! I
am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on this site…….. I am
very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have decided to go ahead – the
psychoactive properties probably scare me the most plus the fact that some
people have had negative experiences and fatalities have occurred – can
anyone help to ease my apprehensions – many thanks….!!

Try not to be too put off by the arguing on this list; a lot of the people
here are very devoted to the cause of ibogaine and liberating people from
addiction, and are very passionate about it. I think because people are so
passionate, sometimes disagreements become a bit hostile. But I think, for the
most part anyway, that’s mainly because people care a great deal about the
matter, and sometimes get a bit caught up in it. Of course, we do occasionally
get people on here who are just pricks, like that Artez guy or whatever his
name was =)

The truth about ibogaine’s saftey is probably some combination of what people
have said. No, it isn’t completely safe, I think three people have died or so.
But the fact is that no medical procedure is completely safe. A number of
people die every year from aspirin, as I think someone had said. As far as
medical procedures go though, ibogaine is relatively safe if proper
precautions are taken. Maintain hyrdration, don’t mix ibogaine with other
drugs, have a sitter who is preferably experienced, or at least knowledgeable
and willing to take you to a medical professional should the need arise.

As with any other medical treatment, a major point is to weigh its benefits vs
its risks. For someone who is suffering hard from an addiction, my opinion
(having been there myself) is that the odds of breaking the addiction outweigh
the slim chance of something going wrong with the treatment.

But it’s also important to remember that the ibogaine alone will not cure your
addiction. As Howard Lotsof as said, ibogaine gives you a “window of
oppurtunity”. You have to act on that oppurtunity, and put the lessons that
ibogaine teaches you to use. A support network is pretty important; this list
is a good start. You still have to do a lot of the things they do in more
typical addiction treatment, like avoiding things that trigger you to want to
use, talking out your feelings, etc. But for most people, its easier to do
this things after taking ibogaine, because its not like you just do them
because some shrink is telling you to, you do them because ibogaine helps you
understand WHY you should do them, and how to best go about it for you.

Good luck, and keep us posted =)

From: “Allison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 27, 2003 at 12:39:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think (just my own opinion) that a lot of all this in-fighting is
creating fear and uncertainty for people reading and trying to make
decisions from this site. Perhaps those that are disagreeing with each
other could draw up a working plan of treatement which includes doses, care,
costs and etc. etc. and then everyone bouncing from one critisim to another
could actually have some facts set out to make up their own minds without
all the extra opinions thrown in. Perhaps it would help to add
qualifications or rather experience in the treatement to give people an idea
of why you do it in that way. I for one would like to see it instead of
reading lots of snaps and bits at each other.
Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: “thebozman” <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks

Its Richard from Nottingham…

Here I am ! – two and a half weeks away from my first ibogaine experience
and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self hate that is addiction !
I
am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on this site…….. I
am
very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have decided to go ahead – the
psychoactive properties probably scare me the most plus the fact that some
people have had negative experiences and fatalities have occurred – can
anyone help to ease my apprehensions – many thanks….!!

Marc – and Marco

I think there is a little “better than” going on on
both sides.

Marc, before I forget. You may wish to get a heart
monitor (I think lost a couple emails when my computer
did the “blue screen of death” thingie). They have
wireless models, an alarm would be good. This way you
don’t have to disturb their visions. TO that, it can
be hard to get/stay into them, it was especially so
for me my first time – it worked just fine anyway.

Marc, there are different ways to take ibo and the
environment, patient/initiate, addiction or not, to
what?, the dosage, type of ibo, set/setting (yadda)
make a big difference in the reaction. IMO, you may be
setting yourself up for a rude awakening by
discounting others with FAR MORE and VARIED and
different experiences than you have. I understand that
in your enviromnemt things (so far…) have been this
generic ibo type symptoms that you describe,
sound+light sensitivity, visions (which you place
undue importance in IN THAT, one can have just as
successful/enlightening experience with as without
visions – though differently. As if it is some kind of
failure not to have them – that is not saying they are
undesirable either.

We dose them the way we do because it is neutral.

Which is a good GENERIC place to start, especially for
an addict. Most of what you are hearing is from people
who are NOT risks to themselves during the ibo trip,
people who have done ibo more than once, on their own
terms – not ones dictated to them BY THE ENVIRONMENT
(I am not saying you are FORCING them – you sometimes
are SO THICK), the set/setting – not that most of them
won’t want deep quiet/no light… that is pretty
standard/general/generic. In your environment there is
more control, which is a + when dealing with addicts,
but I certainly don’t need that, neither does any
regular poster here. FYI, After several hours the
sensitivity level turns down a bit, there could also
be some acustic thing going on where you are that is
particularly (in your environment/setting) that is
different than others. Also, some places, you are more
use to sounds, if I did ibo home I am more use to
certain sounds than if I were do do it somewhere else.
Not all sounds are annoying (relatively speaking),
thunder/lightning/rain (think tropical, big
rain/thunder)… got along pretty well on ibo for the
sound it was making, quite natural and maybe fitting
since I am sure people have been taking ibogaine in
thunderstorms for a very long time.

The patient can request
music, but they never do. They can ask for anything
they want, but they, we

My first request would be to GET THE FUCK AWAY WITH
THAT WATER, everytime I puke or piss… Marc, it may
be in your environment that it works (not that I
agree) but it can be dangerous IMO to force all that
fluids and simply overkill especially for someone at
home doing it themselves. People need to be well
hydrated, that is great.

think fortunately, want to be focused on their
‘movie-of-their-life’
experience and resist any and all distractions.

If that toots your horn, have at it. It is nice, great
even. Maybe, after a few hundred “visions” of various,
movie, non-movie, stills, zoom types and having todo
and having nothing to do with “my life” at times they
got, well, big deal – or sometimes NOT having visions,
thinking “what, that was it, got cheated”… only to
find out after that the vision-fewer/less/free
ibogaine trip turned out to be some of my most
successful. Ever think that maybe if someone is
focusing (I am splitting hairs because you are doing
the same, but don’t know it) all that energy on seeing
visions, they won’t have enough left for action? It
was one such, “bla” ibo session of about 12mg/kg
(thought I didn’t do quite enough) that 1 week later,
I tossed a 28 year old smoking habit and never looked
back… That was one successful ibo session, not that
you could tell from the experience.

We don’t impose rules on our patients, they tell us
what they want. They

That is not what I am hearing, though that is what you
are saying. You have a rather strict, controlled
environment and that is cool (for you), certainly got
its +’s.

haven’t want to hear people talking while they are
concentrating, they don’t
want any background music, they tell us to stop any
music (later they may
ask for some, but that is rare), they don’t want to
smell eggs cooking,
incense burning, fireplaces burning or any
distracting/disturbing smell or
sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After all,
we are here to offer
comfort and assistance to their experience. They
dislike hearing the phone
ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive to
light and they want it
stopped if it is bright or even nominally
illuminated.

All standard, generic, what people want when they are
being treated for the first time for the most part. It
is NOT you are RIGHT and WE are WRONG, it is NOT we
are RIGHT and you are WRONG – it is in your situation,
with your patients, who are addicts, where you are,
with your procedures, with the whole thing that you
project – that is how it turns out. IN THE IBOGAINE
WORLD (which is not this tiny microcosm of ibogaine
treatment that you have, where you are, with the kind
of ibogaine you use, with your patients, with your
doses, in your environment, with the things YOU tell
your patients, with the
sounds/smells/longitude/latitude that YOU are oat…)
people have many varied experiences and reactions to
ibogaine.

We have a creative environment here. We have art
materials, a guitar,
movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the
forest surrounds us and
they are encouraged to take nature walks, meditate
on the pier (we have a
dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The
current patient is here for 8
days, this isn’t just ibogaine, this is hopefully
REINVENTION, and we are
here to help them, not control them. I am confident
this is already the most
suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of any
place I have ever read
about, heard about.

To you in your experience, it even sounds great (to
me) for what you are using it for. I am sure Dr. Mash
thinks the same thing of her treatment, and Sara
thinks (and does) she is doing a fine job, and Eric
Taub does a wonderful job too…

There are however things you do (and they do that you
don’t) that can be of great help TO YOUR CLIENTS in
particular. Truth, for me, it wouldn’t have done any
better, I simply did not need it, I was in relapse and
knew what to do to “get a life” – as in I didn’t need
you to tell/show me, didn’t need a 2nd treatment
within a month, I didn’t need a “treatment center” so
Mash wouldn’t have done it either.

Our patients get great care here
and they tell us so.

I’m sure they do and sure you are. I don’t think
anyone disputed that at all.

Also, as to the issue of music, playing music that
is a favorite of your
past is potentially flawed, after all, our favorite

And so is your analysis.

music is usually that
with strong emotional associations from our past.

Well, in my case not, music was never part of my
“past”.

I’m not sure these
patients want the familiar and comforting, they are

Ya know, again, in your situation with your patients,
you are “not sure” but obviously seems that way to you
– then have it it your way. But let me throw this at
you, one of the reasons I like music is when HCL comes
on hard, it can be quite uncomfortable (but you
wouldn’t know), so I get myself very relaxed, into it,
meditation music, till I gain altitude (get UP there
and settle down). When I say music, I mean very quiet
stuff. When I say incense, I don’t mean smoke the
whole house, I mean light one, run around the house
for a few minutes, do the room I will be in (maybe
they don’t like your kind, try Nag Champa sometime)
and then I put it out and do my thing (ibo), not stink
up the whole house. Same with sounds, it starts out
low (for me, with what I am doing ibo for, the way I
do it) and gets lower, YOU wouldn’t hardly hear it –
but oops, you wouldn’t know would you? You are less
sensitive (empathic) to someone on ibo than say my
mate would be or I would be if I were treating
someone… Marc, with a look, a comment, a movement I
can feel what they feel in a way you will never know
and never can respond to quite the same way. Vivian
(my Fiancee) went through the same thing, I complained
about things like smells and sounds (…) and to her,
she was being quiet… till she did it. THEN after she
did it, she knew what I meant and now, if she needs
to do something she is sensitive to how it will sound
to me, what level and how delivered will the sound be
nice or not nice – YOU DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE
NOT TRIED IBOGAINE. You say the patients report, well
great for them but that does not give you first hand
knowledge – as Marko pointed out, how was her dinner?

I have never had any patient react to ‘silence’ as
though it is something
sinister as you suggest, Carla.

I understand Carla completely, wonder why?

Your statement is remarkable in that you obviously
HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
proper ibogaine experience. All our patients

Marc, now you are talking with your head up your ass
about something you are not qualified to speak about.

I mean you are doing a great job (rookie, like that?
didn’t think so) and all but again, you are not the be
all and end all of iboga knowledge and it is highly
arrogant of you.

experienced a movie screen/
fast moving motion-picture of their life thats lasts
for 8 to 30 hours. All
of them, thats what we expect of the treatment.
While this autobiographical
movie of intense proportions is going on, the
patient does not want
interruptions or distractions. They tell us to be
quiet, no music, no
smells,

Geez, we know, enough already. YOUR VERY LIMITED (you
repeat, I will repeat) experience is not the sum total
of ibogaine experiences or the only way it should be
done. Quite obviously you are sitting here arguing
with a number of people who have had different
experiences (quite successful ones I may add) that
differ from yours – oh, but you didn’t have one, you
just watched (yes, that was a dig, you do more than
watch).

PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the
entire time, we can’t
even play music for ourselves. We answer the phone
outside! (It never snows
here though, so its not so bad)

And (again, I do this cause some are THICKER than
others, you are one) yes, that is pretty generic ibo
for your class of patients, with the ibo you are
using, in your enviroment, with your procedures, with
your walls, your floors, your staff… that does NOT
mean in someone elses environment, someone elses
ibogaine/dose/reason for taking ibo, in some other
kind of patient (eg not addicted/less
addicted…previously have taken ibo…) wouldn’t want
something different.

Mare LISTEN CLOSELY

Every single ibo experience is different – and I don’t
give a flying fuck what it looks like to you from the
outside.

Yes, there are a bunch of rather standard generic type
symptoms, stuff that happens…

When someone is addicted, fuckecd up, toxic (in
whatever various flavors) it is different than someone
who is not, someone who is clean, someone who is
happy!!! And generally they (we) would take somewhat
less ibo (though I have taken more than you use
several times). Then was then, which is not now – 2
different times. It is just like them not having
visions (or fewer) the first time but have them once
they are cleaner. It will also be different 6 months
down the road (when some start to need another dose)
and different 1, 2, 3, 4… years down the road. Marc,
you have no such experience, why are you so dam
thickheaded about it. Sorry but what are you trying to
do, be a snot-nose, come along, treat 20 people and
think you know it all? That is going to get you in
trouble my son. Again, NOT THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING A
WONDERFUL JOB, a service to humanity and all that
stuff, you are (just put your ego somewhere else,
better dose yourself, that’ll do the trick).

Carla, that you have said the following means the
dose was way too low:

Marc, that means you are inexperienced. Not everyone
gets visions and they don’t happen 100% of the time.
POINT, last time I didn’t get them and did a higher
dose than I had done in a long time. Also, I have had
“movie” scenes but not always and still got visions.

And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people
like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

If you want the movie for your own life, with all
its revelations it can
provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You can
listen to whatever music
you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga
experience has for you, it
will be much more vital than what playing a familiar
tune can do for you.

What we provide is a neutral environment that
reflects the person’s needs as
the iboga experience progresses. We take all our
cues from the patient.

As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla, etc.,
I am grateful its
myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are helping
people here and not some
of the people on this listserve!

Ya know, there are good people in the world that know
things that are different than you do, that does not
mean they are not good people, don’t know stuff. Maybe
it is you who have the issue and need to look in the
mirror – but DO NOT DO IBOGAINE. I do not mean to say
you are wrong/unsuccessful in your methods, hey, they
work for you, right? Just too bad you don’t want to
learn something new and everyone else is wrong – that
is how it sounds Marc.

Brett

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at
carlambarnes@yahoo.com wrote:

Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick whenever
possible. Save the politician when running for
office
or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem, anger
management issues are ok as long as the guy is
cute,
you qualify. As long as you don’t hit women, never
change.

Marc I understand your being a great guy and
helpful
but I’m a little weirded out. I too cant imagine
doing
ibogaine without some music. I like alternative
and
some ambient, I don’t like total silence. I know
youre
trying to do something good but it almost sounds
like
punishment or something, you stick people into a
dark
room with nothing to hear or smell and dont talk
to
them??????? why on earth would you do that? I dont
know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but I
love
what flowers and different perfume smells like
when
I’m on ibogaine.

Why do you do that? I dont think one person who
has
done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like
doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people
like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

I don’t ever attack anyone and I’m not starting
now
well no I did get upset about the paying blacks
not to
have children messages a long time ago here, but
why
on earth do you dose people like that Marc?

Carla B

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without
music
bro. I have got to go strongly with that one.
Dimly
lit room. No mexican or thai food before either
😉

Other then that Marc please do not start Patrick
up,
it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the
counterculture. I much much much prefer the real
Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out this
wall
of words like he, you and all of your staff
always
like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get
Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in the
same
room, to figure out what side everyone is on and
then go run for office or start a PR agency.
Don’t
see how any of you could lose. It’s like talking
to
teflon. I truly do understand why none of you are
in
prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before it
starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of you
talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a
political conference in the professional weirdo
zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett
going
off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like the
verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! 😉
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J
Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you, and
didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it could be
construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to me.
I’m
not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly all of
whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to
start
arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. But I’m just
gonna
assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the planets,
and
it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer
their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining
sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence. Of course LSD will not get
you
unsprung. Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant, and
throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction
with
patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250
people
in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from that
number… The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an extremely
wide
spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music,
scents,
and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence of
ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love
classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? — in
short, people display
individual preferences. Allowing them this
freedom
appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.
Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients respond
well
to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
others. Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these
exact
conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know many
people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that
whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a description
of
my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of
ibogaine. I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps
the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech
patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency. And on the
flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems. Oh
well.
C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT
YOU,
or just angry
in
general; nope. I’m having a pretty cool day,
and I
just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I
commented.

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying, and
radiate that. They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of whatever
negative headtrip
they’re
in. Well, with crack this doesn’t really work
out
some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the
vibe,
delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree
about
those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I commented.
This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is highly
cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you
kill
all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the
TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say tripping
out,
I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.
Kinda
like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level
of
experience.

But… A lotta people don’t necessarily like,
want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and
listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for
different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: : [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s
Date: February 26, 2003 at 9:27:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Richard, it gets a little angry some of the time bro, but there’s a big group of people who have all used ibo on here. All of them mean well. I would say for sure go ahead with your plans and don’t let momentary differences on here derail you.

Ibogaine makes a big difference, you deserve to do it for yourself.

Peace out,
Curtis

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: “thebozman” <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 26, 2003 at 7:28:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com