Ibogaine List Archives – 2003-02

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 28, 2003 at 2:03:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That was very interesting information indeed! Does Carl N.W. still work with
iboga? I understand Carl is Sara Glatt’s husband? Does he still make written
contributions on his experiences? I know Sara Glatt’s father (who recently
passed away) was also a pioneerr in entheogens also.

Thanks for that useful link.

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

I wondered exactly who the ‘extractor’ guy is. Thats
gotta be an interesting story, the history of that
extract and how it came to be.

Marc

Marc,

Some tidbits

https://lists.calyx.nl/archives/ibogaine/2002-April/000173.html

and

see #2 Denmark

http://www.ibogaine.org/history.html

Brett

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some
good-intended criticism ūüėČ

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name
of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is
Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the
last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL.
(Cordially, Carl! ūüėČ

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:

Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga
derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine),
named after the man who extracted it from Iboga
plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine
alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA
extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer
to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If
you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with
a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency
person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract
will do well. If you were going to an experienced
Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do
well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person
out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post
because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: “Will” <willewonka@burntmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] sorry for double posting…
Date: February 28, 2003 at 1:46:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My webmail crashed while sending the first one, so I didn’t think it went through…

Will

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC May Ibogaine Forum Draft #2
Date: February 28, 2003 at 1:33:22 PM EST
To: hsl123@aol.com
Cc: Daniel Pinchbeck <daniel@breakingopenthehead.com>, RickMAPS@aol.com, Kenneth Alper <kra1@nyu.edu>, “Laurie Mischley” <lauriemischley@attbi.com>, carl_anderson@hms.harvard.edu, aiviarose@netscape.net, cajohnson@bmcc.cuny.edu, clayhoney@hotmail.com, barlow@eff.org, ekwaus@yahoo.com, kid_lucky@hotmail.com, Nmitsogo@aol.com, Suziknkbell@aol.com, kurt@opprect.org, carahuasca@aol.com, beach120St@yahoo.com, mark@mwwilson.com, mirrorlink@aol.com, ismokedmt@aol.com, scottlt@aol.com, hydrocetacean@hotmail.com, lizrymland@hotmail.com, Dka@well.com, pgBenjamin@aol.com, “Brian Vastag” <Brian_Vastag@ama-assn.org>, “Ron Sala” <ronsala@uuma.org>, “The Rev. Richard Erhardt” <erhardt23@mindspring.com>, “The Rev. Gordon Clay Bailey” <NYGBailey@aol.com>, “Quinet, Kim” <kquinet@cotc.edu>, STUARTTROY@webtv.net (Stuart Troy), dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>, Richard Lake <rlake@mapinc.org>, DDanforbes@aol.com, ibogalab@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, m.pilkington@virgin.net, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, NeedelR@aol.com, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

New York City Conference and Telecast
On Iboga and Ibogaine
May 4 & 5, 2003

@The Walker Stage, 56 Walker St.

Sponsors Include:
the Harm Reduction Coalition, MAPS, Association for Drug Prevention and Treatment (ADAPT), Cures not Wars, the Dora Weiner Foundation, The Benu Project, The Greens

PROPOSED DRAFT  AGENDA
Sunday, May 4. 2003, noon to 8 pm

12:00 noon – 12:45 pm
Registration $20

12:45 pm – 2:30 pm
Traditional Healing and Religious Practice

Laurent Sazy
Marendi
Awolowo Johnson
Discussion

2:30 pm – 3:30 pm
Break

3:30 pm – 5:30 pm
Treatment Providers
Sara Glatt*
Eric Taub
Patrick Kroupa
Samuel Waizmann*
Howard Lotsof
Marco Resinovik*
Discussion

5:45pm to 8pm

Ibogaine and the Search for Lost Sacraments
Charles Kater, Friends of Bishop Pike*
Frank Morales, Episcopalian
Daniel Pinchbeck, author, BREAKING OPEN THE SKULL
Others, TBA
discussion

Monday, May 5, 2003, 10am to 6pm

10:00 am – 10:30 am
Registration $20
10:30 am – 10:45 am
Introductory remarks
H.S. Lotsof
10:45 am – 1:45 pm
Scientific Panel
Kenneth R. Alper, MD
Deborah C. Mash PhD
Stanley Glick, MD*
Emmanuel Onaivi, Phd
Carl M Anderson, Phd
Discussion

1:45 pm – 3:00 PM
Lunch

3:00 pm –¬† 5:15pm
Politics and Availability
Dana Beal, cures not wars
Vic Hernandez, PhD act up*
Bob Sisko Addiction Research Institute*
Ric Doblin, MAPS
Discussion

5:15pm – 6:00pm
Final Wrap-up Panel

The Monday session will be attended by representatives of various city and state agencies..
————————-
*Invited but not confirmed

Technical requirements & equipment
2 tables
6 chairs
1-2 tablecloth & skirt
1 podium
5 stationary microphones (4 at table, 1 at podium)
1 wireless Microphone (audience questions)
1 slide projector
1 PowerPoint projector

From: “Will” <willewonka@burntmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] extract vs HCL?
Date: February 27, 2003 at 11:42:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi,

Could people with experience with both iboga extracts and HCL offer more info on the differences, relative advantages/disadvantages, etc.I’ve seen metaphors like “cartoonish”, “opening head with crowbar”, “forgiving”, etc. Could you explain these in more detail?

Also, how  do the substances differ in terms of
– physical effects/side effects
– psychological effects, visuals, alteration of perception, cognition, etc
– control of experience (if there’s any element of this with either substance)
– pleasantness/unpleasantness
– ability to understand experience/integrate lessons from it
– affect on addiction/cravings/withdrawal symptoms, etc.

Also, suggestions on reasons/situations that would be better to use one or the other would be helpful. Thank you.

–will

From: “Will” <willewonka@burntmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] extract vs HCL
Date: February 28, 2003 at 12:09:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi

Could people with experience with both iboga extracts and HCL offer more details on the differences? I’ve seen terms on this list like cartoonish, like a crowbar, and forgiving in describing these differences, and would like to hear more details.

I’d like to hear about differences between extract and HCL in terms of
– physical effects/body load
– psychological experience, visuals, altered perception, cognition, etc
– comfort/discomfort
– ability to understand experience, gain insights, integrate lessons, etc
– effects on cravings/additiction
– long term effects, benefits
– reasons or situations where one might be preferable to the other

The discussions I’ve seen on the list, especially the variety of experiences/perspectives has been very informative so far, so I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic. Thank you.

Will

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 28, 2003 at 11:22:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Stuart, I like you. You’re not like the other people, here, at the trailer
park. I mean don’t get me wrong, they’re good people and fine americans, but
they’re content to sit back, drink a couple of cool coors 16 ouncers, maybe
watch a little mork and mindy on channel 57….they’re good, fine people,
stuart….BUT THEY DON’T KNOW…WHAT THE QUEERS….ARE DOING TO OUR SOIL#@!!@!

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 28, 2003 at 9:07:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wondered exactly who the ‘extractor’ guy is. Thats
gotta be an interesting story, the history of that
extract and how it came to be.

Marc

Marc,

Some tidbits

https://lists.calyx.nl/archives/ibogaine/2002-April/000173.html

and

see #2 Denmark

http://www.ibogaine.org/history.html

Brett

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some
good-intended criticism ūüėČ

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name
of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is
Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the
last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL.
(Cordially, Carl! ūüėČ

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:

Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga
derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine),
named after the man who extracted it from Iboga
plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine
alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA
extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer
to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If
you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with
a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency
person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract
will do well. If you were going to an experienced
Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do
well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person
out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post
because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] wising up the marks…..
Date: February 27, 2003 at 10:40:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:
If you want to help people then why not do that. I thought that
posting information and sharing what youre doing is great but the
past days are starting to be like the twilight zone and this place
was already the twilight zone before you got here but not a sinister
episode only a weird one.

Peace out,
Curtis

Two minutes of clicking the mindvox web site confirms this captain ūüôā
Welcome to ibogaine ūüôā

.:vector:.

When you’re tired of the Lesser of Two Evils: Cthulhu for President

‘Scuse me, gotta go … I have my Parole Officer hanging on a Meathook
in the Basement

If you Experience Problems: Call your Dealer, Rent a Shrink, or go Buy
a Gun

This is NOT the Summer of Love

It’s Just Like 6 Months of REM Sleep in 6 Hours!

MindVox: Where the Customer is Always Wrong

” Power Corrupts . Absolute Power is Kinda Neat ”

“… And most of all, what Really Sucks, is Everything and All of Us”

Active Ingredients: LSD25 / Crack / Heroin / Ibogaine

“Hate, if you want to hate. ¬†If it keeps you safe. ¬†If it makes you
brave.”

Hey do0d … Got any Monteka?

MindVox Transcendental Enlightenment Temple / Heroin Maintenance Clinic

“The Needle and The Damage Done”

Welcome to the MindVox Reform School for Wayward Supermodels

Straight Outta Detox

Welcome to: Tranquility Acres, Therapeutic Community

Now Includes: Fully Integrated Messiah Complex

Psychedelic Temple of The Apocalypse

DSM-IV Simplified: (Please Select) [1] Completely Fucking Crazy, or [2]
Full of Shit.

“Great Spirits have always encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre
Minds.”

Live at CBGB’s: Gweeds with Unicorn Rainbow & The Trustafarians

Moderation’s Alright… ¬†As long as there’s a LOT of it.

“In the Church of my Heart, the Choir’s on Fire.”

“All That Glitters… has a High Refractive Index”

Erase Me Debase Me Freebase Me

“You Are Exactly Where God Wants You To Be”

Post-human, Fully Deconstructed and Completely Incoherent

Use Once and Destroy

Merry Apocalypse and a Happy Kali Yuga

Hosted by: The International Flat Earth Society

Powered by: Mechanical Resonance

Today’s vocabulary word: Pedohomonecropyrobestiality

Powered by: the Spirit of Psychedelic Cannibal Pygmies

Live Long and Prosper / Fuck Off and Die

Why do you have to be Such a Bitch?

It’s all Spiritual n’ Shit

To All The Drugs that I’ve Done: This One’s For You

Hmmm… Hammer, Cranial Saw, WD40, Drugs, Necronomicon, Bowling Ball,
Open Mind…

“In Philip K. Dick We Trust”

“I’m a GENIUS! I want to dispute sentence structure with SUSAN SONTAG!”

Now Includes: “a Strange Fractal Quality that Self-Organizes across All
Planes”

Dis is da Slowest Fuckin’ McDonalds I evah bin in. And I bin all ovah
de whirld.

” .Not All Who Wander are Lost. ”

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Happy B-day Howard
Date: February 27, 2003 at 9:25:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Howard,

We don’t know each other beyond this list. ¬†I know your face, I doubt you know mine. ¬†You changed my life. ¬†I am forever grateful. ¬†Happy Birthday!! 60 years young!! A great time to start something new.

Sincerely,
Randy Hencken

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC May Ibogaine Forum Draft
Date: February 27, 2003 at 9:11:05 PM EST
To: Flashback Books <flashbks@earthlink.net>
Cc: Kenneth Alper <kra1@nyu.edu>, “Laurie Mischley” <lauriemischley@attbi.com>, hsl123@aol.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 2:12 PM -0800 2/10/03, Flashback Books wrote:
Thinking it over, I don’t know any individuals in NY who would be interested
in the ibogaine forum. But you know, the Drug Policy Alliance, the leading
reform group, moved their offices there from SF.  www.drugpolicy.org
They put on speaker events there and in SF so maybe you can link up with
them and get publicity.  Then I remember a place way downtown called The
Open Center.

I have very few roots in NYC any longer, since my folks passed way, and
rarely go back there.

Good luck with it.
Mike

Well, keep it in mind. We expect to draw people from the entire east coast. If you know just one person who wants to attend or present there, do not hesitate to let me know. If we do anything more on the W. coast (LA is a possibility), I’ll let you know.
I am especially looking for an additional person in the vein of Terence McKenna and Philip Dick for the third panel on Sunday the 4th of May

New York City Conference and Telecast
On Iboga and Ibogaine
May 4 & 5, 2003

@The Walker Stage, 56 Walker St.

PROPOSED DRAFT  AGENDA
Sunday, May 4. 2003, noon to 8 pm

12:00 noon – 12:45 pm
Registration $20

12:45 pm – 2:30 pm
Traditional Healing and Religious Practice

Laurent Sazy
Marendi
Awolowo Johnson
Discussion

2:30 pm – 3:30 pm
Break

3:30 pm – 5:30 pm
Treatment Providers
Sara Glatt*
Eric Taub
Patrick Kroupa
Samuel Waizmann*
Howard Lotsof
Marco Resinovik*
Discussion

5:45pm to 8pm

Ibogaine and the Search for Lost Sacraments
Ron Sala, Universalist Unitarian*
Charles Kater, Friends of Bishop Pike*
Frank Morales, Episcopalian
discussion

Monday, May 5, 2003, 10am to 6pm

10:00 am – 10:30 am
Registration $20
10:30 am – 10:45 am
Introductory remarks
H.S. Lotsof
10:45 am – 1:45 pm
Scientific Panel
Kenneth R. Alper, MD
Deborah C. Mash PhD
Stanley Glick, MD*
Emmanuel Onaivi, Phd
Carl M Anderson, Phd*
Discussion

1:45 pm – 3:00 PM
Lunch

3:00 pm –¬† 5:15pm
Politics and Availability
Dana Beal, cures not wars
Vic Hernandez, PhD act up*
Bob Sisko Addiction Research Institute*
Ric Doblin, MAPS*
Discussion

5:15pm – 6:00pm
Final Wrap-up Panel

The Monday session will be attended by representatives of various city and state agencies..
————————-
*Invited but not confirmed

Technical requirements & equipment
2 tables
6 chairs
1-2 tablecloth & skirt
1 podium
5 stationary microphones (4 at table, 1 at podium)
1 wireless Microphone (audience questions)
1 slide projector
1 PowerPoint projector

From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: February 27, 2003 at 9:02:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The messages. The one I found so far, there are more then 10 total.

.:vector:.

— Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Michael Synergy <synergy9_11@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] indra extract
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:13:07 -0700 (PDT)

Testing. If this message goes through more then once I’m sorry but I
am
having problems mailing from yahoo lately. I hit send and freezes or
I hit
send and it sends 5 or 10 copies. I think it is starting to fall
apart
because millions of people moved from hotmail here when they started
asking
for money at hotmail, now they are starting the same thing on yahoo
and
lycos. Maybe its time to move mail somewhere else again.

Indra you’re saying is extract from the root of taberanthe iboga
which has
many other active alkaloids which are not found in ibogaine hcl.
What are
these alkaloids and do they make any difference? If I’m asking
something to
which there isn’t a exact answer, I understand that, but ibogaine
hcl is
what all the experiments being written in the science journals are
being
done with so I’m lost. What testing has been done with the extract.
I’m not
challenging you only trying to understand what basis your statement
is made
from.

The extract has a different pharmacodynamic action.It may be taken in
small
amounts over extended periods of time to relieve fatigue and/or
opiod withdrawal symptoms.Specifically,when it comes to Methadone
withdrawals,(which can be quite unbearable and long-lasting)the
extract has
been proven to be far superionr to Ibogaine HCL,(which to the best of
my
knowledge is not advisable to use in repeated high dosages),and the
inner
journey seems to feel more mellow and benign to the
clients,who,furthermore,can be treated in non-clinical settings
without the
use of electronic measuring devices and other fancy gadgets of the
“scientific” disciplines.The Pygmy and other tribes ¬†have used this
stuff
for millennia in the treatment of sleeping sickness and so it should
be
quite safe and if you get too much you will throw it up.There was one

fatality reported in London where rumour has it that the man choked
to death
from his own vomit while the original coroner’s report wrote about an
inner
hemorrage due to Hepatitis C,but I have never ever heard of anyone
else
having any problems with the stuff except the seasickness and the
sometimes
very intense long-lasting introspective mood of the journey in the
high
dosage range,which usually can be alleviated by the skilled
psychedelic
guide who has tried the stuff before giving it to someone else.This I

believe to be imperative for good results in its therapeutic use,and
that,I
believe, goes for the entire family of mind-revealing substances from
the
plant kingdom,ancient & modern,in clinical as well as ritual
settings.

Why is taking more then 1,000mg of ibogaine hcl toxic or dangerous?
Haven’t
people who detoxed with ibogaine taken amounts nearly twice that in
order
to do it and come out ok?
To illustrate this let us take an example,coffee beans.Coffee can be

considered to be an extract of coffee beans.Drinking coffee is one
thing,downing caffeine tablets en masse is somewhat different…
I don’t know,man I never administered the HCL,but I have been giving
away
some twenty-five kiloes of the extract since 1985 and my friends did
not
give it to rats.

The ibogaine fatalities that have been recorded were all with hcl?

As far as I know,yes,with the exception of the above-mentioned case.

_Synergy_

I hope that this may bring some clarity.May virtue increase.Soon.

cordially,Carl W.

Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg <ibogalab@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Carl Waltenburg
To: ibogalab@hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:42:24 +0100 (BST)

Dear friends
Since there seems to be a great deal of confusion on
the Net as to what is what I would like to make a
comment to the statement attached below.The book I
came across when I returned from the Kilimanjaro was
not Schultes’&Hofmann’s “Plants of the gods”.It was
their “botany and chemistry of hallucinogens”.Apart
from correcting that error the statement deserves some
further clarification…
What is “Indra”?
“Indra” was the name chosen for an internet shop
selling ethnobotanical specialties for shamanic use.
I happened to know the guys who started the shop and
gave them some of my Iboga extract so that they could
make it commercially available.
I am not so happy with the way that went down.Although
they surely distributed substantial amounts of the
stuff,I did not see much of any benign influence from
their endeavour,(nor did I see any money coming my way
from providing the stuff to them in the first place).
It stands to reason,when I view the episode in
retrospect,that entheogens and sacred plants and their
congeners should not be handled by people whose only
religion is money,whose only incentive is profit and
who approach me with an intent to GET whateveritis
from me to take personal advantage of the situation.
The Iboga extract that was released to the world
through this conduit was,however,remarkably safe and
sort of tailor-made for the elimination of addictive
demands and applicable over a wide variety of
drug-related problematiques.Crystalline Ibogaine HCL
is to this extract somewhat like taking ONE active
ingredient out of a plant with at least EIGHTEEN
different active ingredients.You end up with a
different pharmacodynamic profile,and also something
quite toxic in the dosages proposed (e.g.1000
milligrams) and hence impossible to administer under
any but highly supervised clinical settings.
Considering the popularity of another historically
known Iboga extract called “Lambarene” in the early
days of the 20th century,experience shows that this is
a promising field indeed,but only as good as the
players in it…
cordially,Carl W.

From: vector6@space.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)

ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
Reply-to: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: vector6@space.com
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine extract hcl what?

This doesn’t answer what indra is exactly, if it’s
still any good after being stored for so long and what
potency is left in it. But like almost everything at
least some of the answers are on the internet and you
can find them using google ūüôā

.:vector:.

Reprinted from:
http://www.ridgetelnet.com/~jenks/ibogaine/121299.html

Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:24:43 EST
From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg”
Subject: Re: indra ibo(beginning)

In a message dated 12/11/99 10:48:50 AM,
ibogalab@hotmail.com (Carl) wrote:

I have been working with the Iboga alkaloids over
the last sixteen years

Carl,

What precipitated your work with ibogaine? How did
you come to it? Please
be only as open as you feel comfortable in being.

Thanks.

Howard

Well,Howard it is a very long story,I guess it started
with being born into a family where visionary plants
and drugs was part of the cultural heritage,and
literature in that field was
abundant.Huxley’s”Island”,Baudelaire’s”the artificial
paradises”de Ropp’s “drugs and the mind” etc. was my
childhood literature,my father was a book publisher
and translator and a journalist with a strong
revolutionary impact on contemporary society
throughout the 1960’s and my school years in the late
sixties were heavily laced with psychedelic drugs and
social protest,the Vietnam war being what it was and
youth culture being what it was…
I first came across the Iboga plant when I returned
from a soujourn with the medicine men of Tanzania
,Kenya and Uganda in the Kilimanjaro area (doing some
highly classified magic that was part of overthrowing
the Idi Amin dictatorship),finding dr Hofmann’s and dr
Schultes’ elegant volume “Plants of the Gods”.Then,as
I stated earlier,I was working with numerous medicinal
plants in a pharmaceutical house,and the Iboga plant
was one of them.At that time,we considered it to be a
rather wild and rough trip with a lot of undesirable
side effects,so I set out to “tame” this wild spirit
into something more manageable,as I intuitively felt
that here was something with a tremendous healing
potential.In the same time period Christiania Freetown
had a severe problem with hard drug abuse,criminal
biker gangs fighting over street level drug market
control,heavily armed maniacs, and a lot of police
brutality.The scene was disgusting,so the Psychedelic
Movement decided to make the entire arsenal of
visionary plants and drugs readily available at street
level,on the principle that on a truly free market
good drugs will drive out the bad,and the Iboga
extract was one of the materials employed in this
endeavour.It was a successful operation,and Chritiania
Freetown has remained a zone entirely free from hard
drugs like opiates,cocaine, speed etc.to this day, and
violence is rare,although there are some problems with
alcohol and tourism…
To acheive consensus on “no hard drugs” in a community
is no easy thing and our model may not be universally
applicable,but the principles involved could indeed be
applied worldwide in a more enlightened future.To some
extent there are hopeful signs that visionary plants
and drugs are becoming an accepted part of everyday
reality in the western “civilization”,and that
long-lost profession of being a psychedelic guide will
be back in business, as was the case in the 1950’s and
early60’s,with a new role to play in using the Iboga
alkaloids in therapy and counseling.In this spirit,I
will do what I can,as much as I can, as fast as I
can…

Cordially,Carl

On Mon, 08 April 2002, ibogaine@heroinhelper.com wrote

Actually, this is a very good question. Heroin is
less dangerous
than morphine which is less dangerous than codeine.
For people
who need codeine, why not prescribe really small
amounts of
heroin instead? The answer is that drug laws make no
sense and
doctors are mostly fools. (I used to teach physics
to pre-meds; it
was a real eye-opener. BTW: I just got word of my
first student
becoming a license physician.)

Francis

On 7 Apr 2002, at 23:20, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/7/02 10:34:39 PM,
synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:

Thanks for the info. But I’m not really sure it
answered my question.
What is indra? Why does it exist, who made it and
if they broke it down
from ibogaine root then why did they stop at that
instead of turning it
into HCL? Is this some company making it right
now or what. I’m lost. What
I mean is what is the reason, why make this when
you can get HCL from it
and what am I buying if I buy indra?

Without giving you a direct response… why does
opium exist and morphine
exist when the manufacturer could go on to make
heroin? I think indra is the
equivalent of a trade name. Indra can be reached
at
. You
might ask them to explain
themselves.

Howard

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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Note to Howard
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:47:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Howard, you may not have said ‘forgiving’. In the conversation when I was
explaining ibogaine’s apparent compatability with all the different types of
people with individual physiologies, mental states, etc. and producing
desirable results in each without any apparent harm to them (even as we have
treated people with HEP C, MS, and other diseases), you mused that it was
amazing how ibogaine can do these things without  significant
contra-indications. Of course, you warned me in the same conversation that
‘Its the first one that doesn’t go right that will create serious problems
for you.’ and you worried about me.

Thats what I meant when I drew that word out of the conversation.

Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: <hslotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

In a message dated 2/27/03 4:34:34 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning
it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you
were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is
your
sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract
will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe,
any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Marc,

Sorry to this matter and I might chalk it to memory lapses from
chemotherapy
on my part but, I have no recollection of indicating the INDRA extract as
“forgiving”. ¬†It is not my language and I have no practical experience
with
the INDRA product so I doubt I would have provided that particular
comment.
I know how busy you must be and I myself have found that I cannot quite
identify who said what on more than a single occasion.

In case there is any concern, this is not an attack on Marc.

Concerning this list recently, every list I have been on during my list
history of about ten years periodically goes a bit amuck.  I think that
Brett
Calabrese’s post “Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks” of
this
date, 2.27.03, begins to address the value of all providers and the
understanding of ibogaine therapy and the therapies they have made
available.

And, Marc, in case I did make the statement that I have denied, I hope you
will be as forgiving as the INDRA product.

With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. ¬†I’m amazed.

Howard

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:49:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wondered exactly who the ‘extractor’ guy is. Thats
gotta be an interesting story, the history of that
extract and how it came to be.

http://www.ibogaine.org/history.html

under Denmark: “a 44 kg supply of alkaloid extract from
500 kg of Tabernanthe iboga root bark”.

Also discussion on these lists between me and Carl
on preserving the secrets of the extraction method.

Bill

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:38:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

regards on the birthday thing too.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Happy Birthday!

Peace out and smoke out ūüôā
Curtis

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:10:50 -0800 Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>> With regards and turning 60 on Saturday.¬† I’m amazed.
>
>Happy Birthday, Howard!
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>

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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:38:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I wondered exactly who the ‘extractor’¬†guy is. Thats gotta be an interesting story, the history of that extract and how it came to be.

Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some good-intended criticism ūüėČ

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL. (Cordially, Carl! ūüėČ

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:
Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine), named after the man who extracted it from Iboga plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 8:21:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. ¬†I’m amazed.

Happy birthday =)

==========================================================================
|                                                                        |
| League of Surrealist Discord        Р              www.lsdrecords.com |
|                                                                        |
| ¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds… ¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†|
————————————————————————–

From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 7:14:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Happy Birthday!

Peace out and smoke out ūüôā
Curtis

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:10:50 -0800 Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. ¬†I’m amazed.

Happy Birthday, Howard!

Bill

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From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] wising up the marks…..
Date: February 27, 2003 at 7:12:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bro, Carl W. posts to this list or he did last time was last year. His name isn’t indra, that’s what the big ibo batch of extract he made is called now.

There is something I must say here and hope that you think about it. There are a lot of people who talk here and a lot of them are disturbed and a lot of shit gets talked about. Mostly not about Mash too much because then Patrick starts up. She is this evil person. No, she’s not. She replies to email, she never replies about anything personal when I ask something about Patrick except saying she loves him and that’s her son. He defends her. At San Francisco I finally got it, they’re both like the same person, very arrogant, very brilliant, very crazy people. But they’re people, they care about each other is obvious, they are f**ked up people, but good people. That’s a part of it. The other part is neither one of them talks bullshit. She knows science, patrick knows addiction and bro does he ever know ibogaine and psychedelics, computers too ūüėČ And that goes for Brett, who is another nut but I always feel there is someone in there. He posts facts about things he has done or un
derstands, if he doesn’t know he says he doesn’t know. Dana Beal is one of the biggest crazies I’ve ever anywhere but he’s another person who is very crazy, but you get the sense of someone in there and you can’t help but like him even if he is talking about time travel. Howard is a great person. Sara posts some strange things but she also does not talk bullshit and maybe she has a different angle on how things work and how to guide people through it. Randy too is real and even the doctor from mexico who I dissed out by accident some months ago replied to me and there is a person there, I had respect that he stood up for himself and he was right. Everyone here is in some way not normal I think they wouldn’t be here if they were.

What I’ve never seen before anywhere is someone who started asking questions on this list last fall and didn’t know anything, now guiding people and giving advice. When what you’re saying with authority is not right. You don’t have any of the facts but keep answering. You disrespect people who have knowledge you don’t and contribute their time and help people here. It may be a angry list sometimes, but its also a informative one full of people who understand what theyre saying. If you post how you are dosing people and what you do then you’re sharing what you’re learning with other people and that is very honorable and commendable bro. But telling people there is some movie, then telling Carla she didn’t do ibogaine because that’s not what she saw, giving people ibo in dark rooms and explaining what its supposed to be like.

Bro what I want to say to you is that its starting to sound real creepy. It feels like you have no interest in ibogaine at all but you want to take ownership of it. Of course people are going to say you do good things because you’re giving it away. But its starting to feel like come here little girl, want some candy?

I’m only waiting for the zombie army of people you’ve given ibo to to rise up wearing Marc Emry tshirts and selling flowers.

Bro, do you even smoke pot or just make alot of millions from it and stick a joint in your mouth when there is a photo op?

You are very much starting to weird me out. I dont need 3 of your assistants to reply to me explaining what you really meant. But why not stick to saying what you do know and what you’ve learned instead of whatever it is that youre trying to do. I think its too late to own ibogaine. If you ever did it you’d know you can’t do that anyway.

If you want to help people then why not do that. I thought that posting information and sharing what youre doing is great but the past days are starting to be like the twilight zone and this place was already the twilight zone before you got here but not a sinister episode only a weird one.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:55:12 -0800 paul jackamo <pauljackamo@hotmail.com> wrote:
Greetings all

Have read the recent exchanges with interest and like everyone else,
i just
need to throw a few thoughts into the mindvox infosphere.

Marc – There is no such thing as the “ibogaine experience” – it
doesnt exist
outside of semantic space.What exists are people who have experiences
with
ibogaine – a crucial difference.
As Brett said, you may be setting yourself up for a fall if you
discount
the complexity and diversity of a given experience.
What happens when (and it will happen) someone has an experience
that isnt
“a movie of their life”,no “screen”, no childhood memories, no
biographical/personal data at all – have they had the “wrong” experience
? – are they having an “incorrect” vision – do they become iboga
heretics ?

I feel really strongly about this.Ive only done ibogaine twice (HCL
not
Indra at 15mg/kg and 25mg/kg respectively) and because of what I
read : ” a
screen will appear,scenes from your childhood will float by,blah,
blah,blah”,
i was expecting some kind of psychedelic movie(its the subliminal
“screen”
metaphor,it implies some kind of cognitive distance between the

observer/observed)- what i got was something else entirely,no
personal/biographical data – and like most junkies, i had a pretty
fucked up
childhood so it wasnt for ¬†a lack of material to draw upon ūüėČ
I did feel when i came round that i had somehow “failed” until i
started
reading up on others experiences and speaking to Brett and other
people on
this list and i realised i hadnt failed.
What each individual experiences on ibogaine is unique to them and
the
content of the experience varies greatly with each experience.
My second experience was completely different to the first in a
way ive
never experienced with any other empathogen.

The main point is that nobody “owns” ibogaine nor the definative
treatment
modality.My intuition is that the iboga root has been used for thousands
of
years,its morphogenetic field is just so “rich” for want of a better
word.
It has at least 150 years of documented use.Ibogaine itself as we
all know
has been around for 100 years. It exists as a self-organising/self

transforming entity , spiralling in complexity. Its use changes

constantly.People transform its use/ritual context constantly –
it flows.
To say that you have the optimum treatment modality in terms of
addiction
therapy is just plain arrogance.
Having said that, i think what you are doing is way cool, i wish
we had
something similar over here in england.
Many people dont have a place they can go to like ITH and/or can
afford Mash
et al, myself included.
For me, this listserve was a lifeline in my quest for ibogaine and
freedom
from addiction in terms of the support and advice i recieved so
when you say
:

“I am grateful its myself,linette…..who are helping people here
and not
some of the people on this listserve”

You are doing a disservice to the people who contribute their time
and
energy to the list.IMO.

I think what Marko was getting at is that you are dealing with serious
shit
here,ibogaine is extremely weird,powerful,complex and can as easily
operate
in and influence your space-time continuum in ways you may find
perplexing
and occasionally devastating.It bites!

You are doing incredible work,but remember, to paraphrase Nietzche:
“The deeper you look into ibogaine,the deeper it looks into you”

respect to you

paul.

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 7:10:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. ¬†I’m amazed.

Happy Birthday, Howard!

Bill

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 7:02:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/27/03 4:34:34 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning
it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you
were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your
sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract
will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe,
any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Marc,

Sorry to this matter and I might chalk it to memory lapses from chemotherapy
on my part but, I have no recollection of indicating the INDRA extract as
“forgiving”. ¬†It is not my language and I have no practical experience with
the INDRA product so I doubt I would have provided that particular comment.
I know how busy you must be and I myself have found that I cannot quite
identify who said what on more than a single occasion.

In case there is any concern, this is not an attack on Marc.

Concerning this list recently, every list I have been on during my list
history of about ten years periodically goes a bit amuck.  I think that Brett
Calabrese’s post “Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks” of this
date, 2.27.03, begins to address the value of all providers and the
understanding of ibogaine therapy and the therapies they have made available.

And, Marc, in case I did make the statement that I have denied, I hope you
will be as forgiving as the INDRA product.

With regards and turning 60 on Saturday. ¬†I’m amazed.

Howard

From: “paul jackamo” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] wising up the marks (part two)
Date: February 27, 2003 at 6:15:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Note :
If anyone got halfway through my last mail and saw that i called ibogaine an “empathogen”,dont jump down my throat.I should have ¬†used
“entheogen”.Having said that,it has empathic qualities but not in a cute fluffy mdma/mda sense.i’ll shut up……..

paul.

PS : Am i the only person to be fascinated by these facts:

A)nicotine produces small ammounts of norharman when smoked

B) Norharman can be created by heating L-Trytophan at boiling point.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger – fast, easy and FREE! http://messenger.msn.co.uk

From: “paul jackamo” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] wising up the marks…..
Date: February 27, 2003 at 5:55:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Greetings all

Have read the recent exchanges with interest and like everyone else, i just need to throw a few thoughts into the mindvox infosphere.

Marc – There is no such thing as the “ibogaine experience” – it doesnt exist outside of semantic space.What exists are people who have experiences with ibogaine – a crucial difference.
As Brett said, you may be setting yourself up for a fall if you discount
the complexity and diversity of a given experience.
What happens when (and it will happen) someone has an experience that isnt “a movie of their life”,no “screen”, no childhood memories, no biographical/personal data at all – have they had the “wrong” experience
? – are they having an “incorrect” vision – do they become iboga heretics ?

I feel really strongly about this.Ive only done ibogaine twice (HCL not Indra at 15mg/kg and 25mg/kg respectively) and because of what I read : ” a screen will appear,scenes from your childhood will float by,blah,blah,blah”, i was expecting some kind of psychedelic movie(its the subliminal “screen” metaphor,it implies some kind of cognitive distance between the observer/observed)- what i got was something else entirely,no personal/biographical data – and like most junkies, i had a pretty fucked up childhood so it wasnt for ¬†a lack of material to draw upon ūüėČ
I did feel when i came round that i had somehow “failed” until i started reading up on others experiences and speaking to Brett and other people on this list and i realised i hadnt failed.
What each individual experiences on ibogaine is unique to them and the content of the experience varies greatly with each experience.
My second experience was completely different to the first in a way ive never experienced with any other empathogen.

The main point is that nobody “owns” ibogaine nor the definative treatment modality.My intuition is that the iboga root has been used for thousands of years,its morphogenetic field is just so “rich” for want of a better word.
It has at least 150 years of documented use.Ibogaine itself as we all know has been around for 100 years. It exists as a self-organising/self transforming entity , spiralling in complexity. Its use changes constantly.People transform its use/ritual context constantly – it flows.
To say that you have the optimum treatment modality in terms of addiction therapy is just plain arrogance.
Having said that, i think what you are doing is way cool, i wish we had something similar over here in england.
Many people dont have a place they can go to like ITH and/or can afford Mash et al, myself included.
For me, this listserve was a lifeline in my quest for ibogaine and freedom
from addiction in terms of the support and advice i recieved so when you say
:

“I am grateful its myself,linette…..who are helping people here and not some of the people on this listserve”

You are doing a disservice to the people who contribute their time and energy to the list.IMO.

I think what Marko was getting at is that you are dealing with serious shit here,ibogaine is extremely weird,powerful,complex and can as easily operate in and influence your space-time continuum in ways you may find perplexing and occasionally devastating.It bites!

You are doing incredible work,but remember, to paraphrase Nietzche:
“The deeper you look into ibogaine,the deeper it looks into you”

respect to you

paul.

_________________________________________________________________
Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://messenger.msn.co.uk

From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 5:44:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I would also like to thank Brett,for your indsight,and good advices.
I HAVE¬† found a good place,with a “pro” sitter(s).
The idea of doing it home with my mom,or a friend (without any Ibo knowledge),was not good,so I have found the best alternative I could possibly find.
Thanks man.
Soren from Denmark
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some good-intended criticism ūüėČ

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL. (Cordially, Carl! ūüėČ

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:
Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine), named after the man who extracted it from Iboga plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 5:26:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Marc,

thank you for taking into consideration some good-intended criticism ūüėČ

I’d like to correct you again: INDRA is the name of the extract seller. The man who extracted it is Carl N.W.; I guess and hope he’s still alive, the last time I heard of him he was with Sara in NL. (Cordially, Carl! ūüėČ

Marko

At 22:22 27.2.2003, you wrote:
Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine), named after the man who extracted it from Iboga plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Stuart
Date: February 27, 2003 at 4:22:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Stuart,

At Iboga Therapy House, we use 3 different iboga derivitives,

INDRA extract (approximately 20% ibogaine), named after the man who extracted it from Iboga plant sources,
Ethnogarden extract (approx. 24% active ibogaine alkaloids)

and Ibogaine Hydrochloride (100% ibogaine)

Howard Lotsof has remarked that the INDRA extract is ‘forgiving’, meaning it is a bit softer to handle than the pure Ibogaine hydrochloride. If you were doing this on your own, in conjunction with a good friend who is your sitter/monitor/emergency person, the INDRA extract or ethnogarden extract will do well. If you were going to an experienced Iboga person in Europe, any of the three would do well with that supervision.

Brett wrote a beautiful piece for another person out your way, a Richard, and I’ll quote Brett’s post because it really does cover so many bases:

This is What Brett had to say:

Richard,
>
> Sorry about politics/religion/culture debate… People
> often take their ibogaine methods very seriously and
> personally, and no wonder after seeing it work.
> Ibogaine is unlike anything else on earth I can think
> of, or took. Ibo, just by itself isn’t (I should say
> likely) going to do much more than a good detox,
> unless you go with it and want it.  We all mean well
> and I think that a bit of it is many treatment
> providers are in different nitches to some extent,
> clients are different, cultures are different. Patient
> X may be happy with MASH and swear by her, so will
> MASH – and need her style of tx. Patient Y (say me) is
> fine with just detox me, break the cycle and I will
> take it from there – I knew how to be clean. The IBO
> does work like a charm, so long as the other pieces
> come into play, you do your part/whatever else you
> need.
>
> No-one has a monopoly on love, it comes in many
> different flavors and styles. Thinking someone elses
> love isn’t right because it isn’t something you do, or
> don’t understand, OR because of vast cultural
> differences and mis-understandings isn’t part of
> ibogaine, it is part of being human.  And then
> sometimes you have gotten hit over and over with
> something, then some loving person comes along and
> because of prior experience, we jump to conclusions
> too quickly… the defenses go up, old buttons are
> pressed… In truth, we do love and respect each other
> for the most part but seems that in the iboga world
> people do take things too seriously (negatively) and
> heads do butt.
>
> Let me put it this way.
>
> I have done ibogaine, it saved my life, gave me hope
> and allowed me to go back and remake my understanding
> of events and its effect on me. It is powerful but
> very subtle, don’t like a vision, a blink or a thought
> will stop it. It isn’t so rough as even I sometimes
> make it out when I say it is, mostly it is just long,
> non-stop, one after the other, with nice side effects
> like ataxia, severe motion sensitivity (don’t
> move)/nausea maybe vomiting, photophobia, sound
> sensitivity, some visual distortions and this strob
> like/magnesium flares/tracers (white), kind of cool
> but dizzying and get old (too much). Basically, stay
> pretty still, flat on your back is usually best. If
> you move, keep your head in-line with your body and
> slowly (I said slowly which means you will likely need
> help at first) sit-up/move… Telling you is one
> thing, doing it is another and many people who you say
> “move slow” will BOUNCE UP… and then land flat on
> their backs in some shade of green. Some people
> experience some anxiety, mostly on the way up and
> mostly >from HCL (much less with Indra but happens), I
> usually split my dose to soften it a bit (it is
> uncomfortable, hot horrible). Usually once people are
> at altitude most if not all the anxiety passes, just
> relax and deep breath nice and slow. Few tid-bits, I
> sometimes get tired of the “trip” (for lack of a
> better description) and get-up, shake it off, use to
> go have a smoke but usually people are pretty
> flattened by it, for whatever reason it does not
> happen to me (well, lots of practice being wacked out
> and trying to function I guess…).¬† As for safty, as
> long as you follow procedure/protocol and are in good
> health you are pretty safe. Pretty much any treatment
> provider is going to follow (more or less) the basics,
> fast, maybe an anti-emetic, a tester dose followed by
> a main dose(or sometimes split into several doses).
>
> Success depends on your attitude and what you do with
> the opportunity. If you want ibogaine to fix you I
> suggest you go cop some good drugs someplace and have
> at it till you are ready. Recovery requires work, you
> have to want it, ibogaine is not going to make you
> want it – well not usually anyway. Here is the deal
> (and Marc keyed right in on it);  You do the stuff and
> in a couple days (when you come down, mostly) you get
> high – (don’t worry, makes sense to me), which
> basically means you feel shitty for a few days then
> the door opens, the ibo-glow sets in (if it does),
> some people have transient depression, the better
> after-glow feeling/mood is generally with HCL (not
> Indra as much). NOW is the time, here is your window,
> the door is open, if you start NEW, you will have new,
> if you do go back to the same old shit and do the same
> old thing, you are very likely to be doing the same
> old thing (drugs) in short order. Look it, it is like
> all the programed wires got all pulled out, the
> momentum in the direction you WERE going just got the
> wind out of it, now it is up to you (ultimately) to
> take advantage. You have to do new things, sometimes
> deal/confront old ones (which happens without the
> “FEELINGS” that keep you from doing it, the ego is
> like gone, stuff like “water under the bridge”
> disappears for the most part). SO, no matter how you
> do it, YOU have to change but this time most (not all)
> the effort is out of it.  THe ibo stays (nor-ibogaine)
> in your system for a very VERY long time after doing
> ibogaine, still providing some protection – as it will
> diminish cravings, alter the HIGH (so you like it less
> in most cases), things that were difficult, suddenly
> get easier, health improves, I feel like got an
> overdose of LIFE FORCE after. THis fades over months,
> I have actually felt ibogaine still in me 11 months
> after last dosing (the longest I went). It kind of
> feels a little like an SSRI (but better) in you – but
> no negative side effects, some people though are
> annoyed by less sleep they will need or feel too
> stimulated, most of the overt “feeling” of it passes
> in a few weeks. There could be artifacts for weeks or
> months, sometimes people get flashes of light at night
> for a while after. Doing something like Yoga and
> meditating will bring “IT” back a bit (ie going into
> the “ETHER” is easier and you can FEEL the ibo more
> during something relaxing/spiritual like
> Yoga/meditation… Being an addict, you may have some
> residual withdrawals, I am a fan of small doses if ibo
> (1/2gm-1gm Indra or 100-200mg HCL typically) after a
> main dose for people who are having a hard time. Now
> it may take a while for you to feel right, this is
> especially true if you have an addiction like
> methadone, like a low-grade withdrawal for a while,
> weeks, sometimes months. Often a 2nd treatment will do
> the trick. Some people (like me) do their 2nd dose
> sometime down the road, I did 8 months, some people do
> it 6 months or so – that is about when it gets weak
> (the nor-ibo you are still carrying in you ). Now all
> those “doses”, I don’t think I am brain damaged, well
> not any more than usual. I am no longer addicted,
> stopped coke, alcohol and nicotine AND (thank you)
> have a nasty side effect, opiate pain meds disagree
> with me (I never had a big opiate problem, it went
> with the coke…). Pretty much, I have no desire to
> use or now days even smoke (7 months now), just brief
> moments now and then.
> Now, all that said, I have done ibo, oh, lots of
> times. Basically every 6-12 months I like a little
> tune-up – which means I put it off as long as I can.
> It is big-time YUCK, not horrible, just long, arduous,
> gotta block out a weekend pretty much though these
> days I recover quicker. So, if it was that bad
> (horrible) why would I do it again and again? I take
> ibogaine for what it does for me, not for how it feels
> when I take it (no one does, least not in high doses,
> small doses it is kind of nice – FOR SUPER
> CLEAN/HEALTHY me, you are unlikely to enjoy it).  Lets
> see, if you are doing Indra, it is smoother, softer,
> more “real”, at usual dosages (ie 5gm) not as HIGH as
> a full blown anti-addictive dose of HCL. HCL comes on
> stronger, is a bit more cartoon like, not as
> “spiritual” or real as Indra, sort of rips into issues
> with a crow-bar and jack-hammer where Indra is more of
> this parable story that makes sense to you (softer). I
> can’t say exactly what will happen if at all vision
> wise, the only thing to fear is your fear (get over it
> and relax), things you want to hold onto, your ego,
> your issues, they don’t want to leave… Ibo will do
> this IN YOUR FACE thing with them that is totally
> non-threatening, like looking at things without having
> an ego (at all), seen from many perspectives all at
> the same time (including someone elses). Sometimes
> there are tears, emotions, smiles.
>
> My advice, follow the rules (protocol/procedure), have
> a  plan to change your life and do it, sitting there
> waiting for the ibo to do it for you is a real bad
> idea. And just do it, thinking about it generally has
> negative results – from personal experience. I dislike
> ibo and could easily awfulize about what is to come
> (it is nasty, like if someone came to you with a spoon
> of Castor Oil… but bigger, I mean epecac is more fun
> than ibogaine), the only way is to just swallow the
> suckers and let it happen, then I am fine, don’t
> think, do.
> Brett
>

—– Original Message —–
From: Highlander35739@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

hi mark, im stuart , i would like some advice please? im a heroin addict looking at takink ibogaine¬† , i live in inverness in scotland and am using 1/4 of a gram per day im 10stone medium built and fairly fit. i know how to get it but do i get the chemical extract phosphate or whatever its called or root bark powder or root extract powder, how much do i need to use? ive taken lots of l.s.d and hallucinogens so know what to expect. do i use anything with it?, if so where do i obtain it? i’ll look forward to hearing from you and thank you in anticipation of your reply. all the best……Stuart.

From: “Sandra k” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] for Brett
Date: February 27, 2003 at 3:20:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brett,

Thanks for your insight… *smile*

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:50:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks

Richard,

Sorry about politics/religion/culture debate… People
often take their ibogaine methods very seriously and
personally, and no wonder after seeing it work.
Ibogaine is unlike anything else on earth I can think
of, or took. Ibo, just by itself isn’t (I should say
likely) going to do much more than a good detox,
unless you go with it and want it.  We all mean well
and I think that a bit of it is many treatment
providers are in different nitches to some extent,
clients are different, cultures are different. Patient
X may be happy with MASH and swear by her, so will
MASH – and need her style of tx. Patient Y (say me) is
fine with just detox me, break the cycle and I will
take it from there – I knew how to be clean. The IBO
does work like a charm, so long as the other pieces
come into play, you do your part/whatever else you
need.

No-one has a monopoly on love, it comes in many
different flavors and styles. Thinking someone elses
love isn’t right because it isn’t something you do, or
don’t understand, OR because of vast cultural
differences and mis-understandings isn’t part of
ibogaine, it is part of being human.  And then
sometimes you have gotten hit over and over with
something, then some loving person comes along and
because of prior experience, we jump to conclusions
too quickly… the defenses go up, old buttons are
pressed… In truth, we do love and respect each other
for the most part but seems that in the iboga world
people do take things too seriously (negatively) and
heads do butt.

Let me put it this way.

I have done ibogaine, it saved my life, gave me hope
and allowed me to go back and remake my understanding
of events and its effect on me. It is powerful but
very subtle, don’t like a vision, a blink or a thought
will stop it. It isn’t so rough as even I sometimes
make it out when I say it is, mostly it is just long,
non-stop, one after the other, with nice side effects
like ataxia, severe motion sensitivity (don’t
move)/nausea maybe vomiting, photophobia, sound
sensitivity, some visual distortions and this strob
like/magnesium flares/tracers (white), kind of cool
but dizzying and get old (too much). Basically, stay
pretty still, flat on your back is usually best. If
you move, keep your head in-line with your body and
slowly (I said slowly which means you will likely need
help at first) sit-up/move… Telling you is one
thing, doing it is another and many people who you say
“move slow” will BOUNCE UP… and then land flat on
their backs in some shade of green. Some people
experience some anxiety, mostly on the way up and
mostly from HCL (much less with Indra but happens), I
usually split my dose to soften it a bit (it is
uncomfortable, hot horrible). Usually once people are
at altitude most if not all the anxiety passes, just
relax and deep breath nice and slow. Few tid-bits, I
sometimes get tired of the “trip” (for lack of a
better description) and get-up, shake it off, use to
go have a smoke but usually people are pretty
flattened by it, for whatever reason it does not
happen to me (well, lots of practice being wacked out
and trying to function I guess…). ¬†As for safty, as
long as you follow procedure/protocol and are in good
health you are pretty safe. Pretty much any treatment
provider is going to follow (more or less) the basics,
fast, maybe an anti-emetic, a tester dose followed by
a main dose(or sometimes split into several doses).

Success depends on your attitude and what you do with
the opportunity. If you want ibogaine to fix you I
suggest you go cop some good drugs someplace and have
at it till you are ready. Recovery requires work, you
have to want it, ibogaine is not going to make you
want it – well not usually anyway. Here is the deal
(and Marc keyed right in on it);  You do the stuff and
in a couple days (when you come down, mostly) you get
high – (don’t worry, makes sense to me), which
basically means you feel shitty for a few days then
the door opens, the ibo-glow sets in (if it does),
some people have transient depression, the better
after-glow feeling/mood is generally with HCL (not
Indra as much). NOW is the time, here is your window,
the door is open, if you start NEW, you will have new,
if you do go back to the same old shit and do the same
old thing, you are very likely to be doing the same
old thing (drugs) in short order. Look it, it is like
all the programed wires got all pulled out, the
momentum in the direction you WERE going just got the
wind out of it, now it is up to you (ultimately) to
take advantage. You have to do new things, sometimes
deal/confront old ones (which happens without the
“FEELINGS” that keep you from doing it, the ego is
like gone, stuff like “water under the bridge”
disappears for the most part). SO, no matter how you
do it, YOU have to change but this time most (not all)
the effort is out of it.  THe ibo stays (nor-ibogaine)
in your system for a very VERY long time after doing
ibogaine, still providing some protection – as it will
diminish cravings, alter the HIGH (so you like it less
in most cases), things that were difficult, suddenly
get easier, health improves, I feel like got an
overdose of LIFE FORCE after. THis fades over months,
I have actually felt ibogaine still in me 11 months
after last dosing (the longest I went). It kind of
feels a little like an SSRI (but better) in you – but
no negative side effects, some people though are
annoyed by less sleep they will need or feel too
stimulated, most of the overt “feeling” of it passes
in a few weeks. There could be artifacts for weeks or
months, sometimes people get flashes of light at night
for a while after. Doing something like Yoga and
meditating will bring “IT” back a bit (ie going into
the “ETHER” is easier and you can FEEL the ibo more
during something relaxing/spiritual like
Yoga/meditation… Being an addict, you may have some
residual withdrawals, I am a fan of small doses if ibo
(1/2gm-1gm Indra or 100-200mg HCL typically) after a
main dose for people who are having a hard time. Now
it may take a while for you to feel right, this is
especially true if you have an addiction like
methadone, like a low-grade withdrawal for a while,
weeks, sometimes months. Often a 2nd treatment will do
the trick. Some people (like me) do their 2nd dose
sometime down the road, I did 8 months, some people do
it 6 months or so – that is about when it gets weak
(the nor-ibo you are still carrying in you ). Now all
those “doses”, I don’t think I am brain damaged, well
not any more than usual. I am no longer addicted,
stopped coke, alcohol and nicotine AND (thank you)
have a nasty side effect, opiate pain meds disagree
with me (I never had a big opiate problem, it went
with the coke…). Pretty much, I have no desire to
use or now days even smoke (7 months now), just brief
moments now and then.
Now, all that said, I have done ibo, oh, lots of
times. Basically every 6-12 months I like a little
tune-up – which means I put it off as long as I can.
It is big-time YUCK, not horrible, just long, arduous,
gotta block out a weekend pretty much though these
days I recover quicker. So, if it was that bad
(horrible) why would I do it again and again? I take
ibogaine for what it does for me, not for how it feels
when I take it (no one does, least not in high doses,
small doses it is kind of nice – FOR SUPER
CLEAN/HEALTHY me, you are unlikely to enjoy it).  Lets
see, if you are doing Indra, it is smoother, softer,
more “real”, at usual dosages (ie 5gm) not as HIGH as
a full blown anti-addictive dose of HCL. HCL comes on
stronger, is a bit more cartoon like, not as
“spiritual” or real as Indra, sort of rips into issues
with a crow-bar and jack-hammer where Indra is more of
this parable story that makes sense to you (softer). I
can’t say exactly what will happen if at all vision
wise, the only thing to fear is your fear (get over it
and relax), things you want to hold onto, your ego,
your issues, they don’t want to leave… Ibo will do
this IN YOUR FACE thing with them that is totally
non-threatening, like looking at things without having
an ego (at all), seen from many perspectives all at
the same time (including someone elses). Sometimes
there are tears, emotions, smiles.

My advice, follow the rules (protocol/procedure), have
a  plan to change your life and do it, sitting there
waiting for the ibo to do it for you is a real bad
idea. And just do it, thinking about it generally has
negative results – from personal experience. I dislike
ibo and could easily awfulize about what is to come
(it is nasty, like if someone came to you with a spoon
of Castor Oil… but bigger, I mean epecac is more fun
than ibogaine), the only way is to just swallow the
suckers and let it happen, then I am fine, don’t
think, do.
Brett


_______________________________________________
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From: Highlander35739@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 27, 2003 at 3:10:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi mark, im stuart , i would like some advice please? im a heroin addict looking at takink ibogaine¬† , i live in inverness in scotland and am using 1/4 of a gram per day im 10stone medium built and fairly fit. i know how to get it but do i get the chemical extract phosphate or whatever its called or root bark powder or root extract powder, how much do i need to use? ive taken lots of l.s.d and hallucinogens so know what to expect. do i use anything with it?, if so where do i obtain it? i’ll look forward to hearing from you and thank you in anticipation of your reply. all the best……Stuart.

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 27, 2003 at 12:50:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Richard,

Sorry about politics/religion/culture debate… People
often take their ibogaine methods very seriously and
personally, and no wonder after seeing it work.
Ibogaine is unlike anything else on earth I can think
of, or took. Ibo, just by itself isn’t (I should say
likely) going to do much more than a good detox,
unless you go with it and want it.  We all mean well
and I think that a bit of it is many treatment
providers are in different nitches to some extent,
clients are different, cultures are different. Patient
X may be happy with MASH and swear by her, so will
MASH – and need her style of tx. Patient Y (say me) is
fine with just detox me, break the cycle and I will
take it from there – I knew how to be clean. The IBO
does work like a charm, so long as the other pieces
come into play, you do your part/whatever else you
need.

No-one has a monopoly on love, it comes in many
different flavors and styles. Thinking someone elses
love isn’t right because it isn’t something you do, or
don’t understand, OR because of vast cultural
differences and mis-understandings isn’t part of
ibogaine, it is part of being human.  And then
sometimes you have gotten hit over and over with
something, then some loving person comes along and
because of prior experience, we jump to conclusions
too quickly… the defenses go up, old buttons are
pressed… In truth, we do love and respect each other
for the most part but seems that in the iboga world
people do take things too seriously (negatively) and
heads do butt.

Let me put it this way.

I have done ibogaine, it saved my life, gave me hope
and allowed me to go back and remake my understanding
of events and its effect on me. It is powerful but
very subtle, don’t like a vision, a blink or a thought
will stop it. It isn’t so rough as even I sometimes
make it out when I say it is, mostly it is just long,
non-stop, one after the other, with nice side effects
like ataxia, severe motion sensitivity (don’t
move)/nausea maybe vomiting, photophobia, sound
sensitivity, some visual distortions and this strob
like/magnesium flares/tracers (white), kind of cool
but dizzying and get old (too much). Basically, stay
pretty still, flat on your back is usually best. If
you move, keep your head in-line with your body and
slowly (I said slowly which means you will likely need
help at first) sit-up/move… Telling you is one
thing, doing it is another and many people who you say
“move slow” will BOUNCE UP… and then land flat on
their backs in some shade of green. Some people
experience some anxiety, mostly on the way up and
mostly from HCL (much less with Indra but happens), I
usually split my dose to soften it a bit (it is
uncomfortable, hot horrible). Usually once people are
at altitude most if not all the anxiety passes, just
relax and deep breath nice and slow. Few tid-bits, I
sometimes get tired of the “trip” (for lack of a
better description) and get-up, shake it off, use to
go have a smoke but usually people are pretty
flattened by it, for whatever reason it does not
happen to me (well, lots of practice being wacked out
and trying to function I guess…). ¬†As for safty, as
long as you follow procedure/protocol and are in good
health you are pretty safe. Pretty much any treatment
provider is going to follow (more or less) the basics,
fast, maybe an anti-emetic, a tester dose followed by
a main dose(or sometimes split into several doses).

Success depends on your attitude and what you do with
the opportunity. If you want ibogaine to fix you I
suggest you go cop some good drugs someplace and have
at it till you are ready. Recovery requires work, you
have to want it, ibogaine is not going to make you
want it – well not usually anyway. Here is the deal
(and Marc keyed right in on it);  You do the stuff and
in a couple days (when you come down, mostly) you get
high – (don’t worry, makes sense to me), which
basically means you feel shitty for a few days then
the door opens, the ibo-glow sets in (if it does),
some people have transient depression, the better
after-glow feeling/mood is generally with HCL (not
Indra as much). NOW is the time, here is your window,
the door is open, if you start NEW, you will have new,
if you do go back to the same old shit and do the same
old thing, you are very likely to be doing the same
old thing (drugs) in short order. Look it, it is like
all the programed wires got all pulled out, the
momentum in the direction you WERE going just got the
wind out of it, now it is up to you (ultimately) to
take advantage. You have to do new things, sometimes
deal/confront old ones (which happens without the
“FEELINGS” that keep you from doing it, the ego is
like gone, stuff like “water under the bridge”
disappears for the most part). SO, no matter how you
do it, YOU have to change but this time most (not all)
the effort is out of it.  THe ibo stays (nor-ibogaine)
in your system for a very VERY long time after doing
ibogaine, still providing some protection – as it will
diminish cravings, alter the HIGH (so you like it less
in most cases), things that were difficult, suddenly
get easier, health improves, I feel like got an
overdose of LIFE FORCE after. THis fades over months,
I have actually felt ibogaine still in me 11 months
after last dosing (the longest I went). It kind of
feels a little like an SSRI (but better) in you – but
no negative side effects, some people though are
annoyed by less sleep they will need or feel too
stimulated, most of the overt “feeling” of it passes
in a few weeks. There could be artifacts for weeks or
months, sometimes people get flashes of light at night
for a while after. Doing something like Yoga and
meditating will bring “IT” back a bit (ie going into
the “ETHER” is easier and you can FEEL the ibo more
during something relaxing/spiritual like
Yoga/meditation… Being an addict, you may have some
residual withdrawals, I am a fan of small doses if ibo
(1/2gm-1gm Indra or 100-200mg HCL typically) after a
main dose for people who are having a hard time. Now
it may take a while for you to feel right, this is
especially true if you have an addiction like
methadone, like a low-grade withdrawal for a while,
weeks, sometimes months. Often a 2nd treatment will do
the trick. Some people (like me) do their 2nd dose
sometime down the road, I did 8 months, some people do
it 6 months or so – that is about when it gets weak
(the nor-ibo you are still carrying in you ). Now all
those “doses”, I don’t think I am brain damaged, well
not any more than usual. I am no longer addicted,
stopped coke, alcohol and nicotine AND (thank you)
have a nasty side effect, opiate pain meds disagree
with me (I never had a big opiate problem, it went
with the coke…). Pretty much, I have no desire to
use or now days even smoke (7 months now), just brief
moments now and then.
Now, all that said, I have done ibo, oh, lots of
times. Basically every 6-12 months I like a little
tune-up – which means I put it off as long as I can.
It is big-time YUCK, not horrible, just long, arduous,
gotta block out a weekend pretty much though these
days I recover quicker. So, if it was that bad
(horrible) why would I do it again and again? I take
ibogaine for what it does for me, not for how it feels
when I take it (no one does, least not in high doses,
small doses it is kind of nice – FOR SUPER
CLEAN/HEALTHY me, you are unlikely to enjoy it).  Lets
see, if you are doing Indra, it is smoother, softer,
more “real”, at usual dosages (ie 5gm) not as HIGH as
a full blown anti-addictive dose of HCL. HCL comes on
stronger, is a bit more cartoon like, not as
“spiritual” or real as Indra, sort of rips into issues
with a crow-bar and jack-hammer where Indra is more of
this parable story that makes sense to you (softer). I
can’t say exactly what will happen if at all vision
wise, the only thing to fear is your fear (get over it
and relax), things you want to hold onto, your ego,
your issues, they don’t want to leave… Ibo will do
this IN YOUR FACE thing with them that is totally
non-threatening, like looking at things without having
an ego (at all), seen from many perspectives all at
the same time (including someone elses). Sometimes
there are tears, emotions, smiles.

My advice, follow the rules (protocol/procedure), have
a  plan to change your life and do it, sitting there
waiting for the ibo to do it for you is a real bad
idea. And just do it, thinking about it generally has
negative results – from personal experience. I dislike
ibo and could easily awfulize about what is to come
(it is nasty, like if someone came to you with a spoon
of Castor Oil… but bigger, I mean epecac is more fun
than ibogaine), the only way is to just swallow the
suckers and let it happen, then I am fine, don’t
think, do.
Brett

— thebozman <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk> wrote:
Its Richard from Nottingham…

Here I am ! – two and a half weeks away from my
first ibogaine experience
and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self
hate that is addiction !  I
am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on
this site…….. ¬†I am
very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have
decided to go ahead – the
psychoactive properties probably scare me the most
plus the fact that some
people have had negative experiences and fatalities
have occurred – can
anyone help to ease my apprehensions – many
thanks….!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s
remarks

Marc – and Marco

I think there is a little “better than” going on
on
both sides.

Marc, before I forget. You may wish to get a heart
monitor (I think lost a couple emails when my
computer
did the “blue screen of death” thingie). They have
wireless models, an alarm would be good. This way
you
don’t have to disturb their visions. TO that, it
can
be hard to get/stay into them, it was especially
so
for me my first time – it worked just fine anyway.

Marc, there are different ways to take ibo and the
environment, patient/initiate, addiction or not,
to
what?, the dosage, type of ibo, set/setting
(yadda)
make a big difference in the reaction. IMO, you
may be
setting yourself up for a rude awakening by
discounting others with FAR MORE and VARIED and
different experiences than you have. I understand
that
in your enviromnemt things (so far…) have been
this
generic ibo type symptoms that you describe,
sound+light sensitivity, visions (which you place
undue importance in IN THAT, one can have just as
successful/enlightening experience with as without
visions – though differently. As if it is some
kind of
failure not to have them – that is not saying they
are
undesirable either.

We dose them the way we do because it is
neutral.

Which is a good GENERIC place to start, especially
for
an addict. Most of what you are hearing is from
people
who are NOT risks to themselves during the ibo
trip,
people who have done ibo more than once, on their
own
terms – not ones dictated to them BY THE
ENVIRONMENT
(I am not saying you are FORCING them – you
sometimes
are SO THICK), the set/setting – not that most of
them
won’t want deep quiet/no light… that is pretty
standard/general/generic. In your environment
there is
more control, which is a + when dealing with
addicts,
but I certainly don’t need that, neither does any
regular poster here. FYI, After several hours the
sensitivity level turns down a bit, there could
also
be some acustic thing going on where you are that
is
particularly (in your environment/setting) that is
different than others. Also, some places, you are
more
use to sounds, if I did ibo home I am more use to
certain sounds than if I were do do it somewhere
else.
Not all sounds are annoying (relatively speaking),
thunder/lightning/rain (think tropical, big
rain/thunder)… got along pretty well on ibo for
the
sound it was making, quite natural and maybe
fitting
since I am sure people have been taking ibogaine
in
thunderstorms for a very long time.

The patient can request
music, but they never do. They can ask for
anything
they want, but they, we

My first request would be to GET THE FUCK AWAY
WITH
THAT WATER, everytime I puke or piss… Marc, it
may
be in your environment that it works (not that I
agree) but it can be dangerous IMO to force all
that
fluids and simply overkill especially for someone
at
home doing it themselves. People  need to be well
hydrated, that is great.

think fortunately, want to be focused on their
‘movie-of-their-life’
experience and resist any and all distractions.

If that toots your horn, have at it. It is nice,
great
even. Maybe, after a few hundred “visions” of
various,
movie, non-movie, stills, zoom types and having
todo
and having nothing to do with “my life” at times
they
got, well, big deal – or sometimes NOT having
visions,
thinking “what, that was it, got cheated”… only
to
find out after that the vision-fewer/less/free
ibogaine trip turned out to be some of my most
successful. Ever think that maybe if someone is
focusing (I am splitting hairs because you are
doing
the same, but don’t know it) all that energy on
seeing
visions, they won’t have enough left for action?
It
was one such, “bla” ibo session of about 12mg/kg
(thought I didn’t do quite enough) that 1 week
later,
I tossed a 28 year old smoking habit and never
looked
back… That was one successful ibo session, not
that
you could tell from the experience.

We don’t impose rules on our patients, they tell
us
what they want. They

That is not what I am hearing, though that is what
you
are saying. You have a rather strict, controlled
environment and that is cool (for you), certainly
got
its +’s.

haven’t want to hear people talking while they
are
concentrating, they don’t
want any background music, they tell us to stop
any
music (later they may
ask for some, but that is rare), they don’t want
to
smell eggs cooking,
incense burning, fireplaces burning or any
distracting/disturbing smell or
sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After
all,
we are here to offer
comfort and assistance to their experience. They
dislike hearing the phone
ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive
to
light and they want it
stopped if it is bright or even nominally
illuminated.

All standard, generic, what people want when they
are
being treated for the first time for the most
part. It
is NOT you are RIGHT and WE are WRONG, it is NOT
we
are RIGHT and you are WRONG – it is in your
situation,
with your patients, who are addicts, where you
are,
with your procedures, with the whole thing that
you
project – that is how it turns out. IN THE
IBOGAINE
WORLD (which is not this tiny microcosm of
ibogaine
treatment that you have, where you are, with the
kind
of ibogaine you use, with your patients, with your
doses, in your environment, with the things YOU
tell
your patients, with the
sounds/smells/longitude/latitude that YOU are
oat…)
people have many varied experiences and reactions
to
ibogaine.

We have a creative environment here. We have art
materials, a guitar,
movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the
forest surrounds us and
they are encouraged to take nature walks,
meditate
on the pier (we have a
dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The
current patient is here for 8
days, this isn’t just ibogaine, this is
hopefully
REINVENTION, and we are
here to help them, not control them. I am
confident
this is already the most
suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of
any
place I have ever read
about, heard about.

To you in your experience, it even sounds great
(to
me) for what you are using it for. I am sure Dr.
Mash
thinks the same thing of her treatment, and Sara
thinks (and does) she is doing a fine job, and
Eric
Taub does a wonderful job too…

There are however things you do (and they do that
you
don’t) that can be of great help TO YOUR CLIENTS
in
particular. Truth, for me, it wouldn’t have done
any
better, I simply did not need it, I was in relapse
and
knew what to do to “get a life” – as in I didn’t
need
you to tell/show me, didn’t need a 2nd treatment
within a month, I didn’t need a “treatment center”
so
Mash wouldn’t have done it either.

Our patients get great care here
and they tell us so.

I’m sure they do and sure you are. I don’t think
anyone disputed that at all.

Also, as to the issue of music, playing music
that
is a favorite of your
past is potentially flawed, after all, our
favorite

And so is your analysis.

music is usually that
with strong emotional associations from our
past.

Well, in my case not, music was never part of my
“past”.

I’m not sure these
patients want the familiar and comforting, they
are

Ya know, again, in your situation with your
patients,
you are “not sure” but obviously seems that way to
you
– then have it it your way. But let me throw this
at
you, one of the reasons I like music is when HCL
comes
on hard, it can be quite uncomfortable (but you
wouldn’t know), so I get myself very relaxed, into
it,
meditation music, till I gain altitude (get UP
there
and settle down). When I say music, I mean very
quiet
stuff. When I say incense, I don’t mean smoke the
whole house, I mean light one, run around the
house
for a few minutes, do the room I will be in (maybe
they don’t like your kind, try Nag Champa
sometime)
and then I put it out and do my thing (ibo), not
stink
up the whole house. Same with sounds, it starts
out
low (for me, with what I am doing ibo for, the way
I
do it) and gets lower, YOU wouldn’t hardly hear it

but oops, you wouldn’t know would you? You are
less
sensitive (empathic) to someone on ibo than say my
mate would be or I would be if I were treating
someone… Marc, with a look, a comment, a
movement I
can feel what they feel in a way you will never
know
and never can respond to quite the same way.
Vivian
(my Fiancee) went through the same thing, I
complained
about things like smells and sounds (…) and to
her,
she was being quiet… till she did it. THEN after
she
did it, she knew what I meant and now, if she
needs
to do something she is sensitive to how it will
sound
to me, what level and how delivered will the sound
be
nice or not nice – YOU DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU
HAVE
NOT TRIED IBOGAINE. You say the patients report,
well
great for them but that does not give you first
hand
knowledge – as Marko pointed out, how was her
dinner?

I have never had any patient react to ‘silence’
as
though it is something
sinister as you suggest, Carla.

I understand Carla completely, wonder why?

Your statement is remarkable in that you
obviously
HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
proper ibogaine experience. All our patients

Marc,  now you are talking with your head up your
ass
about something you are not qualified to speak
about.

I mean you are doing a great job (rookie, like
that?
didn’t think so) and all but again, you are not
the be
all and end all of iboga knowledge and it is
highly
arrogant of you.

experienced a movie screen/
fast moving motion-picture of their life thats
lasts
for 8 to 30 hours. All
of them, thats what we expect of the treatment.
While this autobiographical
movie of intense proportions is going on, the
patient does not want
interruptions or distractions. They tell us to
be
quiet, no music, no
smells,

Geez, we know, enough already. YOUR VERY LIMITED
(you
repeat, I will repeat) experience is not the sum
total
of ibogaine experiences or the only way it should
be
done. Quite obviously you are sitting here arguing
with a number of people who have had different
experiences (quite successful ones I may add) that
differ from yours – oh, but you didn’t have one,
you
just watched (yes, that was a dig, you do more
than
watch).

PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the
entire time, we can’t
even play music for ourselves. We answer the
phone
outside! (It never snows
here though, so its not so bad)

And (again, I do this cause some are THICKER than
others, you are one) yes, that is pretty generic
ibo
for your class of patients, with the ibo you are
using, in your enviroment, with your procedures,
with
your walls, your floors, your staff… that does
NOT
mean in someone elses environment, someone elses
ibogaine/dose/reason for taking ibo, in some other
kind of patient (eg not addicted/less
addicted…previously have taken ibo…) wouldn’t
want
something different.

Mare LISTEN CLOSELY

Every single ibo experience is different – and I
don’t
give a flying fuck what it looks like to you from
the
outside.

Yes, there are a bunch of rather standard generic
type
symptoms, stuff that happens…

When someone is addicted, fuckecd up, toxic (in
whatever various flavors) it is different than
someone
who is not, someone who is clean, someone who is
happy!!! And generally they (we) would take
somewhat
less ibo (though I have taken more than you use
several times). Then was then, which is not now –
2
different times. It is just like them not having
visions (or fewer) the first time but have them
once
they are cleaner. It will also be different 6
months
down the road (when some start to need another
dose)
and different 1, 2, 3, 4… years down the road.
Marc,
you have no such experience, why are you so dam
thickheaded about it. Sorry but what are you
trying to
do, be a snot-nose, come along, treat 20 people
and
think you know it all? That is going to get you in
trouble my son. Again, NOT THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING
A
WONDERFUL JOB, a service to humanity and all that
stuff, you are (just put your ego somewhere else,
better dose yourself, that’ll do the trick).

Carla, that you have said the following means
the
dose was way too low:

Marc, that means you are inexperienced. Not
everyone
gets visions and they don’t happen 100% of the
time.
POINT, last time I didn’t get them and did a
higher
dose than I had done in a long time. Also, I have
had
“movie” scenes but not always and still got
visions.

And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what
people
like
to write about it but if its going to the
movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

If you want the movie  for your own life, with
all
its revelations it can
provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You
can
listen to whatever music
you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga
experience has for you, it
will be much more vital than what playing a
familiar
tune can do for you.

What we provide is a neutral environment that
reflects the person’s needs as
the iboga experience progresses. We take all our
cues from the patient.

As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla,
etc.,
I am grateful its
myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are
helping
people here and not some
of the people on this listserve!

Ya know, there are good people in the world that
know
things that are different than you do, that does
not
mean they are not good people, don’t know stuff.
Maybe
it is you who have the issue and need to look in
the
mirror – but DO NOT DO IBOGAINE. I do not mean to
say
you are wrong/unsuccessful in your methods, hey,
they
work for you, right? Just too bad you don’t want
to
learn something new and everyone else is wrong –
that
is how it sounds Marc.

Brett

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at
carlambarnes@yahoo.com wrote:

Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick
whenever
possible. Save the politician when running for
office
or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem,
anger
management issues are ok as long as the guy is
cute,
you qualify. As long as you don’t hit women,
never
change.

Marc I understand your being a great guy and
helpful
but I’m a little weirded out. I too cant
imagine
doing
ibogaine without some music. I like
alternative
and
some ambient, I don’t like total silence. I
know
youre
trying to do something good but it almost
sounds
like
punishment or something, you stick people into
a
dark
room with nothing to hear or smell and dont
talk
to
them??????? why on earth would you do that? I
dont
know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but
I
love
what flowers and different perfume smells like
when
I’m on ibogaine.

Why do you do that? I dont think one person
who
has
done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like
doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what
people
like
to write about it but if its going to the
movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

I don’t ever attack anyone and I’m not
starting
now
well no I did get upset about the paying
blacks
not to
have children messages a long time ago here,
but
why
on earth do you dose people like that Marc?

Carla B

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without
music
bro. I have got to go strongly with that one.
Dimly
lit room. No mexican or thai food before
either
ūüėČ

Other then that Marc please do not start
Patrick
up,
it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the
counterculture. I much much much prefer the
real
Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out
this
wall
of words like he, you and all of your staff
always
like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get
Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in
the
same
room, to figure out what side everyone is on
and
then go run for office or start a PR agency.
Don’t
see how any of you could lose. It’s like
talking
to
teflon. I truly do understand why none of you
are
in
prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before
it
starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of
you
talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a
political conference in the professional
weirdo
zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett
going
off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like
the
verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! ūüėČ
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick
K.
Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800],
[A J
Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you,
and
didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it
could be
construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to
me.
I’m
not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly
all of
whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to
start
arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. ¬†But I’m
just
gonna
assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the
planets,
and
it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and
offer
their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining
sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not
get
you
unsprung.  Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant,
and
throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused
things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction
with
patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250
people
in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from
that
number… ¬†The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an
extremely
wide
spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music,
scents,
and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence
of
ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love
classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? —
in
short, people display
individual preferences.  Allowing them this
freedom
appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.
Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients
respond
well
to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
others.  Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these
exact
conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know
many
people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from
that
whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a
description
of
my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of
ibogaine.  I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and
perhaps
the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech
patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency.  And on the
flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems.  Oh
well.
C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT
YOU,
or just angry
in
general; nope. ¬†I’m having a pretty cool
day,
and I
just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so
I
commented.

What I’m curious ’bout is: what do you do if
someone is having a
really
bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal
experience, the answer
to this
question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine
and
all
other entheogens
— or
even tweaking out on crack for that matter:
you
INTERACT with them,

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying,
and
radiate that.  They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of
whatever
negative headtrip
they’re
in. ¬†Well, with crack this doesn’t really
work
out
some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the
vibe,
delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree
about
those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I
commented.
This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is
highly
cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if
you
kill
all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the
TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say
tripping
out,
I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.
Kinda
like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the
level
of
experience.

But… ¬†A lotta people don’t necessarily
like,
want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug,
and
listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for
different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

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From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 27, 2003 at 10:38:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

===== Original Message From “thebozman” <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk> =====
Its Richard from Nottingham…

Here I am ! – two and a half weeks away from my first ibogaine experience
and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self hate that is addiction !  I
am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on this site…….. ¬†I am
very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have decided to go ahead – the
psychoactive properties probably scare me the most plus the fact that some
people have had negative experiences and fatalities have occurred – can
anyone help to ease my apprehensions – many thanks….!!

Try not to be too put off by the arguing on this list; a lot of the people
here are very devoted to the cause of ibogaine and liberating people from
addiction, and are very passionate about it. I think because people are so
passionate, sometimes disagreements become a bit hostile. But I think, for the
most part anyway, that’s mainly because people care a great deal about the
matter, and sometimes get a bit caught up in it. Of course, we do occasionally
get people on here who are just pricks, like that Artez guy or whatever his
name was =)

The truth about ibogaine’s saftey is probably some combination of what people
have said. No, it isn’t completely safe, I think three people have died or so.
But the fact is that no medical procedure is completely safe. A number of
people die every year from aspirin, as I think someone had said. As far as
medical procedures go though, ibogaine is relatively safe if proper
precautions are taken. Maintain hyrdration, don’t mix ibogaine with other
drugs, have a sitter who is preferably experienced, or at least knowledgeable
and willing to take you to a medical professional should the need arise.

As with any other medical treatment, a major point is to weigh its benefits vs
its risks. For someone who is suffering hard from an addiction, my opinion
(having been there myself) is that the odds of breaking the addiction outweigh
the slim chance of something going wrong with the treatment.

But it’s also important to remember that the ibogaine alone will not cure your
addiction. As Howard Lotsof as said, ibogaine gives you a “window of
oppurtunity”. You have to act on that oppurtunity, and put the lessons that
ibogaine teaches you to use. A support network is pretty important; this list
is a good start. You still have to do a lot of the things they do in more
typical addiction treatment, like avoiding things that trigger you to want to
use, talking out your feelings, etc. But for most people, its easier to do
this things after taking ibogaine, because its not like you just do them
because some shrink is telling you to, you do them because ibogaine helps you
understand WHY you should do them, and how to best go about it for you.

Good luck, and keep us posted =)

From: “Allison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 27, 2003 at 12:39:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think (just my own opinion)  that a lot of all this in-fighting is
creating fear and uncertainty for people reading and trying to make
decisions from this site.  Perhaps those that are disagreeing with each
other could draw up a working plan of treatement which includes doses, care,
costs and etc. etc.  and then everyone bouncing from one critisim to another
could actually have some facts set out to make up their own minds without
all the extra opinions thrown in.  Perhaps it would help to add
qualifications or rather experience in the treatement to give people an idea
of why you do it in that way.    I for one would like to see it instead of
reading lots of snaps and bits at each other.
Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: “thebozman” <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks

Its Richard from Nottingham…

Here I am ! – two and a half weeks away from my first ibogaine experience
and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self hate that is addiction !
I
am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on this site…….. ¬†I
am
very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have decided to go ahead – the
psychoactive properties probably scare me the most plus the fact that some
people have had negative experiences and fatalities have occurred – can
anyone help to ease my apprehensions – many thanks….!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks

Marc – and Marco

I think there is a little “better than” going on on
both sides.

Marc, before I forget. You may wish to get a heart
monitor (I think lost a couple emails when my computer
did the “blue screen of death” thingie). They have
wireless models, an alarm would be good. This way you
don’t have to disturb their visions. TO that, it can
be hard to get/stay into them, it was especially so
for me my first time – it worked just fine anyway.

Marc, there are different ways to take ibo and the
environment, patient/initiate, addiction or not, to
what?, the dosage, type of ibo, set/setting (yadda)
make a big difference in the reaction. IMO, you may be
setting yourself up for a rude awakening by
discounting others with FAR MORE and VARIED and
different experiences than you have. I understand that
in your enviromnemt things (so far…) have been this
generic ibo type symptoms that you describe,
sound+light sensitivity, visions (which you place
undue importance in IN THAT, one can have just as
successful/enlightening experience with as without
visions – though differently. As if it is some kind of
failure not to have them – that is not saying they are
undesirable either.

We dose them the way we do because it is neutral.

Which is a good GENERIC place to start, especially for
an addict. Most of what you are hearing is from people
who are NOT risks to themselves during the ibo trip,
people who have done ibo more than once, on their own
terms – not ones dictated to them BY THE ENVIRONMENT
(I am not saying you are FORCING them – you sometimes
are SO THICK), the set/setting – not that most of them
won’t want deep quiet/no light… that is pretty
standard/general/generic. In your environment there is
more control, which is a + when dealing with addicts,
but I certainly don’t need that, neither does any
regular poster here. FYI, After several hours the
sensitivity level turns down a bit, there could also
be some acustic thing going on where you are that is
particularly (in your environment/setting) that is
different than others. Also, some places, you are more
use to sounds, if I did ibo home I am more use to
certain sounds than if I were do do it somewhere else.
Not all sounds are annoying (relatively speaking),
thunder/lightning/rain (think tropical, big
rain/thunder)… got along pretty well on ibo for the
sound it was making, quite natural and maybe fitting
since I am sure people have been taking ibogaine in
thunderstorms for a very long time.

The patient can request
music, but they never do. They can ask for anything
they want, but they, we

My first request would be to GET THE FUCK AWAY WITH
THAT WATER, everytime I puke or piss… Marc, it may
be in your environment that it works (not that I
agree) but it can be dangerous IMO to force all that
fluids and simply overkill especially for someone at
home doing it themselves. People  need to be well
hydrated, that is great.

think fortunately, want to be focused on their
‘movie-of-their-life’
experience and resist any and all distractions.

If that toots your horn, have at it. It is nice, great
even. Maybe, after a few hundred “visions” of various,
movie, non-movie, stills, zoom types and having todo
and having nothing to do with “my life” at times they
got, well, big deal – or sometimes NOT having visions,
thinking “what, that was it, got cheated”… only to
find out after that the vision-fewer/less/free
ibogaine trip turned out to be some of my most
successful. Ever think that maybe if someone is
focusing (I am splitting hairs because you are doing
the same, but don’t know it) all that energy on seeing
visions, they won’t have enough left for action? It
was one such, “bla” ibo session of about 12mg/kg
(thought I didn’t do quite enough) that 1 week later,
I tossed a 28 year old smoking habit and never looked
back… That was one successful ibo session, not that
you could tell from the experience.

We don’t impose rules on our patients, they tell us
what they want. They

That is not what I am hearing, though that is what you
are saying. You have a rather strict, controlled
environment and that is cool (for you), certainly got
its +’s.

haven’t want to hear people talking while they are
concentrating, they don’t
want any background music, they tell us to stop any
music (later they may
ask for some, but that is rare), they don’t want to
smell eggs cooking,
incense burning, fireplaces burning or any
distracting/disturbing smell or
sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After all,
we are here to offer
comfort and assistance to their experience. They
dislike hearing the phone
ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive to
light and they want it
stopped if it is bright or even nominally
illuminated.

All standard, generic, what people want when they are
being treated for the first time for the most part. It
is NOT you are RIGHT and WE are WRONG, it is NOT we
are RIGHT and you are WRONG – it is in your situation,
with your patients, who are addicts, where you are,
with your procedures, with the whole thing that you
project – that is how it turns out. IN THE IBOGAINE
WORLD (which is not this tiny microcosm of ibogaine
treatment that you have, where you are, with the kind
of ibogaine you use, with your patients, with your
doses, in your environment, with the things YOU tell
your patients, with the
sounds/smells/longitude/latitude that YOU are oat…)
people have many varied experiences and reactions to
ibogaine.

We have a creative environment here. We have art
materials, a guitar,
movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the
forest surrounds us and
they are encouraged to take nature walks, meditate
on the pier (we have a
dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The
current patient is here for 8
days, this isn’t just ibogaine, this is hopefully
REINVENTION, and we are
here to help them, not control them. I am confident
this is already the most
suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of any
place I have ever read
about, heard about.

To you in your experience, it even sounds great (to
me) for what you are using it for. I am sure Dr. Mash
thinks the same thing of her treatment, and Sara
thinks (and does) she is doing a fine job, and Eric
Taub does a wonderful job too…

There are however things you do (and they do that you
don’t) that can be of great help TO YOUR CLIENTS in
particular. Truth, for me, it wouldn’t have done any
better, I simply did not need it, I was in relapse and
knew what to do to “get a life” – as in I didn’t need
you to tell/show me, didn’t need a 2nd treatment
within a month, I didn’t need a “treatment center” so
Mash wouldn’t have done it either.

Our patients get great care here
and they tell us so.

I’m sure they do and sure you are. I don’t think
anyone disputed that at all.

Also, as to the issue of music, playing music that
is a favorite of your
past is potentially flawed, after all, our favorite

And so is your analysis.

music is usually that
with strong emotional associations from our past.

Well, in my case not, music was never part of my
“past”.

I’m not sure these
patients want the familiar and comforting, they are

Ya know, again, in your situation with your patients,
you are “not sure” but obviously seems that way to you
– then have it it your way. But let me throw this at
you, one of the reasons I like music is when HCL comes
on hard, it can be quite uncomfortable (but you
wouldn’t know), so I get myself very relaxed, into it,
meditation music, till I gain altitude (get UP there
and settle down). When I say music, I mean very quiet
stuff. When I say incense, I don’t mean smoke the
whole house, I mean light one, run around the house
for a few minutes, do the room I will be in (maybe
they don’t like your kind, try Nag Champa sometime)
and then I put it out and do my thing (ibo), not stink
up the whole house. Same with sounds, it starts out
low (for me, with what I am doing ibo for, the way I
do it) and gets lower, YOU wouldn’t hardly hear it –
but oops, you wouldn’t know would you? You are less
sensitive (empathic) to someone on ibo than say my
mate would be or I would be if I were treating
someone… Marc, with a look, a comment, a movement I
can feel what they feel in a way you will never know
and never can respond to quite the same way. Vivian
(my Fiancee) went through the same thing, I complained
about things like smells and sounds (…) and to her,
she was being quiet… till she did it. THEN after she
did it, she knew what I meant and now, if she needs
to do something she is sensitive to how it will sound
to me, what level and how delivered will the sound be
nice or not nice – YOU DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE
NOT TRIED IBOGAINE. You say the patients report, well
great for them but that does not give you first hand
knowledge – as Marko pointed out, how was her dinner?

I have never had any patient react to ‘silence’ as
though it is something
sinister as you suggest, Carla.

I understand Carla completely, wonder why?

Your statement is remarkable in that you obviously
HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
proper ibogaine experience. All our patients

Marc,  now you are talking with your head up your ass
about something you are not qualified to speak about.

I mean you are doing a great job (rookie, like that?
didn’t think so) and all but again, you are not the be
all and end all of iboga knowledge and it is highly
arrogant of you.

experienced a movie screen/
fast moving motion-picture of their life thats lasts
for 8 to 30 hours. All
of them, thats what we expect of the treatment.
While this autobiographical
movie of intense proportions is going on, the
patient does not want
interruptions or distractions. They tell us to be
quiet, no music, no
smells,

Geez, we know, enough already. YOUR VERY LIMITED (you
repeat, I will repeat) experience is not the sum total
of ibogaine experiences or the only way it should be
done. Quite obviously you are sitting here arguing
with a number of people who have had different
experiences (quite successful ones I may add) that
differ from yours – oh, but you didn’t have one, you
just watched (yes, that was a dig, you do more than
watch).

PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the
entire time, we can’t
even play music for ourselves. We answer the phone
outside! (It never snows
here though, so its not so bad)

And (again, I do this cause some are THICKER than
others, you are one) yes, that is pretty generic ibo
for your class of patients, with the ibo you are
using, in your enviroment, with your procedures, with
your walls, your floors, your staff… that does NOT
mean in someone elses environment, someone elses
ibogaine/dose/reason for taking ibo, in some other
kind of patient (eg not addicted/less
addicted…previously have taken ibo…) wouldn’t want
something different.

Mare LISTEN CLOSELY

Every single ibo experience is different – and I don’t
give a flying fuck what it looks like to you from the
outside.

Yes, there are a bunch of rather standard generic type
symptoms, stuff that happens…

When someone is addicted, fuckecd up, toxic (in
whatever various flavors) it is different than someone
who is not, someone who is clean, someone who is
happy!!! And generally they (we) would take somewhat
less ibo (though I have taken more than you use
several times). Then was then, which is not now – 2
different times. It is just like them not having
visions (or fewer) the first time but have them once
they are cleaner. It will also be different 6 months
down the road (when some start to need another dose)
and different 1, 2, 3, 4… years down the road. Marc,
you have no such experience, why are you so dam
thickheaded about it. Sorry but what are you trying to
do, be a snot-nose, come along, treat 20 people and
think you know it all? That is going to get you in
trouble my son. Again, NOT THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING A
WONDERFUL JOB, a service to humanity and all that
stuff, you are (just put your ego somewhere else,
better dose yourself, that’ll do the trick).

Carla, that you have said the following means the
dose was way too low:

Marc, that means you are inexperienced. Not everyone
gets visions and they don’t happen 100% of the time.
POINT, last time I didn’t get them and did a higher
dose than I had done in a long time. Also, I have had
“movie” scenes but not always and still got visions.

And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people
like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

If you want the movie  for your own life, with all
its revelations it can
provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You can
listen to whatever music
you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga
experience has for you, it
will be much more vital than what playing a familiar
tune can do for you.

What we provide is a neutral environment that
reflects the person’s needs as
the iboga experience progresses. We take all our
cues from the patient.

As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla, etc.,
I am grateful its
myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are helping
people here and not some
of the people on this listserve!

Ya know, there are good people in the world that know
things that are different than you do, that does not
mean they are not good people, don’t know stuff. Maybe
it is you who have the issue and need to look in the
mirror – but DO NOT DO IBOGAINE. I do not mean to say
you are wrong/unsuccessful in your methods, hey, they
work for you, right? Just too bad you don’t want to
learn something new and everyone else is wrong – that
is how it sounds Marc.

Brett

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at
carlambarnes@yahoo.com wrote:

Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick whenever
possible. Save the politician when running for
office
or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem, anger
management issues are ok as long as the guy is
cute,
you qualify. As long as you don’t hit women, never
change.

Marc I understand your being a great guy and
helpful
but I’m a little weirded out. I too cant imagine
doing
ibogaine without some music. I like alternative
and
some ambient, I don’t like total silence. I know
youre
trying to do something good but it almost sounds
like
punishment or something, you stick people into a
dark
room with nothing to hear or smell and dont talk
to
them??????? why on earth would you do that? I dont
know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but I
love
what flowers and different perfume smells like
when
I’m on ibogaine.

Why do you do that? I dont think one person who
has
done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like
doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people
like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

I don’t ever attack anyone and I’m not starting
now
well no I did get upset about the paying blacks
not to
have children messages a long time ago here, but
why
on earth do you dose people like that Marc?

Carla B

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without
music
bro. I have got to go strongly with that one.
Dimly
lit room. No mexican or thai food before either
ūüėČ

Other then that Marc please do not start Patrick
up,
it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the
counterculture. I much much much prefer the real
Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out this
wall
of words like he, you and all of your staff
always
like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get
Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in the
same
room, to figure out what side everyone is on and
then go run for office or start a PR agency.
Don’t
see how any of you could lose. It’s like talking
to
teflon. I truly do understand why none of you are
in
prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before it
starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of you
talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a
political conference in the professional weirdo
zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett
going
off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like the
verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! ūüėČ
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J
Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you, and
didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it could be
construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to me.
I’m
not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly all of
whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to
start
arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. ¬†But I’m just
gonna
assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the planets,
and
it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer
their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining
sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not get
you
unsprung.  Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant, and
throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction
with
patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250
people
in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from that
number… ¬†The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an extremely
wide
spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music,
scents,
and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence of
ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love
classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? — in
short, people display
individual preferences.  Allowing them this
freedom
appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.
Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients respond
well
to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
others.  Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these
exact
conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know many
people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that
whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a description
of
my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of
ibogaine.  I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps
the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech
patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency.  And on the
flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems.  Oh
well.
C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT
YOU,
or just angry
in
general; nope. ¬†I’m having a pretty cool day,
and I
just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I
commented.

What I’m curious ’bout is: what do you do if
someone is having a
really
bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal
experience, the answer
to this
question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine and
all
other entheogens
— or
even tweaking out on crack for that matter: you
INTERACT with them,

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying, and
radiate that.  They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of whatever
negative headtrip
they’re
in. ¬†Well, with crack this doesn’t really work
out
some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the
vibe,
delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree
about
those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I commented.
This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is highly
cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you
kill
all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the
TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say tripping
out,
I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.
Kinda
like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level
of
experience.

But… ¬†A lotta people don’t necessarily like,
want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and
listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for
different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
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__________________________________________________
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From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: : [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s
Date: February 26, 2003 at 9:27:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Richard, it gets a little angry some of the time bro, but there’s a big group of people who have all used ibo on here. All of them mean well. I would say for sure go ahead with your plans and don’t let momentary differences on here derail you.

Ibogaine makes a big difference, you deserve to do it for yourself.

Peace out,
Curtis

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From: “thebozman” <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 26, 2003 at 7:28:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Its Richard from Nottingham…

Here I am ! – two and a half weeks away from my first ibogaine experience
and caught up in the crescendo of chaos and self hate that is addiction !  I
am so amazed at the level of attacking criticism on this site…….. ¬†I am
very apprehensive about taking ibogaine but have decided to go ahead – the
psychoactive properties probably scare me the most plus the fact that some
people have had negative experiences and fatalities have occurred – can
anyone help to ease my apprehensions – many thanks….!!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks

Marc – and Marco

I think there is a little “better than” going on on
both sides.

Marc, before I forget. You may wish to get a heart
monitor (I think lost a couple emails when my computer
did the “blue screen of death” thingie). They have
wireless models, an alarm would be good. This way you
don’t have to disturb their visions. TO that, it can
be hard to get/stay into them, it was especially so
for me my first time – it worked just fine anyway.

Marc, there are different ways to take ibo and the
environment, patient/initiate, addiction or not, to
what?, the dosage, type of ibo, set/setting (yadda)
make a big difference in the reaction. IMO, you may be
setting yourself up for a rude awakening by
discounting others with FAR MORE and VARIED and
different experiences than you have. I understand that
in your enviromnemt things (so far…) have been this
generic ibo type symptoms that you describe,
sound+light sensitivity, visions (which you place
undue importance in IN THAT, one can have just as
successful/enlightening experience with as without
visions – though differently. As if it is some kind of
failure not to have them – that is not saying they are
undesirable either.

We dose them the way we do because it is neutral.

Which is a good GENERIC place to start, especially for
an addict. Most of what you are hearing is from people
who are NOT risks to themselves during the ibo trip,
people who have done ibo more than once, on their own
terms – not ones dictated to them BY THE ENVIRONMENT
(I am not saying you are FORCING them – you sometimes
are SO THICK), the set/setting – not that most of them
won’t want deep quiet/no light… that is pretty
standard/general/generic. In your environment there is
more control, which is a + when dealing with addicts,
but I certainly don’t need that, neither does any
regular poster here. FYI, After several hours the
sensitivity level turns down a bit, there could also
be some acustic thing going on where you are that is
particularly (in your environment/setting) that is
different than others. Also, some places, you are more
use to sounds, if I did ibo home I am more use to
certain sounds than if I were do do it somewhere else.
Not all sounds are annoying (relatively speaking),
thunder/lightning/rain (think tropical, big
rain/thunder)… got along pretty well on ibo for the
sound it was making, quite natural and maybe fitting
since I am sure people have been taking ibogaine in
thunderstorms for a very long time.

The patient can request
music, but they never do. They can ask for anything
they want, but they, we

My first request would be to GET THE FUCK AWAY WITH
THAT WATER, everytime I puke or piss… Marc, it may
be in your environment that it works (not that I
agree) but it can be dangerous IMO to force all that
fluids and simply overkill especially for someone at
home doing it themselves. People  need to be well
hydrated, that is great.

think fortunately, want to be focused on their
‘movie-of-their-life’
experience and resist any and all distractions.

If that toots your horn, have at it. It is nice, great
even. Maybe, after a few hundred “visions” of various,
movie, non-movie, stills, zoom types and having todo
and having nothing to do with “my life” at times they
got, well, big deal – or sometimes NOT having visions,
thinking “what, that was it, got cheated”… only to
find out after that the vision-fewer/less/free
ibogaine trip turned out to be some of my most
successful. Ever think that maybe if someone is
focusing (I am splitting hairs because you are doing
the same, but don’t know it) all that energy on seeing
visions, they won’t have enough left for action? It
was one such, “bla” ibo session of about 12mg/kg
(thought I didn’t do quite enough) that 1 week later,
I tossed a 28 year old smoking habit and never looked
back… That was one successful ibo session, not that
you could tell from the experience.

We don’t impose rules on our patients, they tell us
what they want. They

That is not what I am hearing, though that is what you
are saying. You have a rather strict, controlled
environment and that is cool (for you), certainly got
its +’s.

haven’t want to hear people talking while they are
concentrating, they don’t
want any background music, they tell us to stop any
music (later they may
ask for some, but that is rare), they don’t want to
smell eggs cooking,
incense burning, fireplaces burning or any
distracting/disturbing smell or
sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After all,
we are here to offer
comfort and assistance to their experience. They
dislike hearing the phone
ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive to
light and they want it
stopped if it is bright or even nominally
illuminated.

All standard, generic, what people want when they are
being treated for the first time for the most part. It
is NOT you are RIGHT and WE are WRONG, it is NOT we
are RIGHT and you are WRONG – it is in your situation,
with your patients, who are addicts, where you are,
with your procedures, with the whole thing that you
project – that is how it turns out. IN THE IBOGAINE
WORLD (which is not this tiny microcosm of ibogaine
treatment that you have, where you are, with the kind
of ibogaine you use, with your patients, with your
doses, in your environment, with the things YOU tell
your patients, with the
sounds/smells/longitude/latitude that YOU are oat…)
people have many varied experiences and reactions to
ibogaine.

We have a creative environment here. We have art
materials, a guitar,
movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the
forest surrounds us and
they are encouraged to take nature walks, meditate
on the pier (we have a
dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The
current patient is here for 8
days, this isn’t just ibogaine, this is hopefully
REINVENTION, and we are
here to help them, not control them. I am confident
this is already the most
suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of any
place I have ever read
about, heard about.

To you in your experience, it even sounds great (to
me) for what you are using it for. I am sure Dr. Mash
thinks the same thing of her treatment, and Sara
thinks (and does) she is doing a fine job, and Eric
Taub does a wonderful job too…

There are however things you do (and they do that you
don’t) that can be of great help TO YOUR CLIENTS in
particular. Truth, for me, it wouldn’t have done any
better, I simply did not need it, I was in relapse and
knew what to do to “get a life” – as in I didn’t need
you to tell/show me, didn’t need a 2nd treatment
within a month, I didn’t need a “treatment center” so
Mash wouldn’t have done it either.

Our patients get great care here
and they tell us so.

I’m sure they do and sure you are. I don’t think
anyone disputed that at all.

Also, as to the issue of music, playing music that
is a favorite of your
past is potentially flawed, after all, our favorite

And so is your analysis.

music is usually that
with strong emotional associations from our past.

Well, in my case not, music was never part of my
“past”.

I’m not sure these
patients want the familiar and comforting, they are

Ya know, again, in your situation with your patients,
you are “not sure” but obviously seems that way to you
– then have it it your way. But let me throw this at
you, one of the reasons I like music is when HCL comes
on hard, it can be quite uncomfortable (but you
wouldn’t know), so I get myself very relaxed, into it,
meditation music, till I gain altitude (get UP there
and settle down). When I say music, I mean very quiet
stuff. When I say incense, I don’t mean smoke the
whole house, I mean light one, run around the house
for a few minutes, do the room I will be in (maybe
they don’t like your kind, try Nag Champa sometime)
and then I put it out and do my thing (ibo), not stink
up the whole house. Same with sounds, it starts out
low (for me, with what I am doing ibo for, the way I
do it) and gets lower, YOU wouldn’t hardly hear it –
but oops, you wouldn’t know would you? You are less
sensitive (empathic) to someone on ibo than say my
mate would be or I would be if I were treating
someone… Marc, with a look, a comment, a movement I
can feel what they feel in a way you will never know
and never can respond to quite the same way. Vivian
(my Fiancee) went through the same thing, I complained
about things like smells and sounds (…) and to her,
she was being quiet… till she did it. THEN after she
did it, she knew what I meant and now, if she needs
to do something she is sensitive to how it will sound
to me, what level and how delivered will the sound be
nice or not nice – YOU DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE
NOT TRIED IBOGAINE. You say the patients report, well
great for them but that does not give you first hand
knowledge – as Marko pointed out, how was her dinner?

I have never had any patient react to ‘silence’ as
though it is something
sinister as you suggest, Carla.

I understand Carla completely, wonder why?

Your statement is remarkable in that you obviously
HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
proper ibogaine experience. All our patients

Marc,  now you are talking with your head up your ass
about something you are not qualified to speak about.

I mean you are doing a great job (rookie, like that?
didn’t think so) and all but again, you are not the be
all and end all of iboga knowledge and it is highly
arrogant of you.

experienced a movie screen/
fast moving motion-picture of their life thats lasts
for 8 to 30 hours. All
of them, thats what we expect of the treatment.
While this autobiographical
movie of intense proportions is going on, the
patient does not want
interruptions or distractions. They tell us to be
quiet, no music, no
smells,

Geez, we know, enough already. YOUR VERY LIMITED (you
repeat, I will repeat) experience is not the sum total
of ibogaine experiences or the only way it should be
done. Quite obviously you are sitting here arguing
with a number of people who have had different
experiences (quite successful ones I may add) that
differ from yours – oh, but you didn’t have one, you
just watched (yes, that was a dig, you do more than
watch).

PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the
entire time, we can’t
even play music for ourselves. We answer the phone
outside! (It never snows
here though, so its not so bad)

And (again, I do this cause some are THICKER than
others, you are one) yes, that is pretty generic ibo
for your class of patients, with the ibo you are
using, in your enviroment, with your procedures, with
your walls, your floors, your staff… that does NOT
mean in someone elses environment, someone elses
ibogaine/dose/reason for taking ibo, in some other
kind of patient (eg not addicted/less
addicted…previously have taken ibo…) wouldn’t want
something different.

Mare LISTEN CLOSELY

Every single ibo experience is different – and I don’t
give a flying fuck what it looks like to you from the
outside.

Yes, there are a bunch of rather standard generic type
symptoms, stuff that happens…

When someone is addicted, fuckecd up, toxic (in
whatever various flavors) it is different than someone
who is not, someone who is clean, someone who is
happy!!! And generally they (we) would take somewhat
less ibo (though I have taken more than you use
several times). Then was then, which is not now – 2
different times. It is just like them not having
visions (or fewer) the first time but have them once
they are cleaner. It will also be different 6 months
down the road (when some start to need another dose)
and different 1, 2, 3, 4… years down the road. Marc,
you have no such experience, why are you so dam
thickheaded about it. Sorry but what are you trying to
do, be a snot-nose, come along, treat 20 people and
think you know it all? That is going to get you in
trouble my son. Again, NOT THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING A
WONDERFUL JOB, a service to humanity and all that
stuff, you are (just put your ego somewhere else,
better dose yourself, that’ll do the trick).

Carla, that you have said the following means the
dose was way too low:

Marc, that means you are inexperienced. Not everyone
gets visions and they don’t happen 100% of the time.
POINT, last time I didn’t get them and did a higher
dose than I had done in a long time. Also, I have had
“movie” scenes but not always and still got visions.

And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people
like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

If you want the movie  for your own life, with all
its revelations it can
provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You can
listen to whatever music
you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga
experience has for you, it
will be much more vital than what playing a familiar
tune can do for you.

What we provide is a neutral environment that
reflects the person’s needs as
the iboga experience progresses. We take all our
cues from the patient.

As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla, etc.,
I am grateful its
myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are helping
people here and not some
of the people on this listserve!

Ya know, there are good people in the world that know
things that are different than you do, that does not
mean they are not good people, don’t know stuff. Maybe
it is you who have the issue and need to look in the
mirror – but DO NOT DO IBOGAINE. I do not mean to say
you are wrong/unsuccessful in your methods, hey, they
work for you, right? Just too bad you don’t want to
learn something new and everyone else is wrong – that
is how it sounds Marc.

Brett

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at
carlambarnes@yahoo.com wrote:

Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick whenever
possible. Save the politician when running for
office
or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem, anger
management issues are ok as long as the guy is
cute,
you qualify. As long as you don’t hit women, never
change.

Marc I understand your being a great guy and
helpful
but I’m a little weirded out. I too cant imagine
doing
ibogaine without some music. I like alternative
and
some ambient, I don’t like total silence. I know
youre
trying to do something good but it almost sounds
like
punishment or something, you stick people into a
dark
room with nothing to hear or smell and dont talk
to
them??????? why on earth would you do that? I dont
know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but I
love
what flowers and different perfume smells like
when
I’m on ibogaine.

Why do you do that? I dont think one person who
has
done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like
doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people
like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

I don’t ever attack anyone and I’m not starting
now
well no I did get upset about the paying blacks
not to
have children messages a long time ago here, but
why
on earth do you dose people like that Marc?

Carla B

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without
music
bro. I have got to go strongly with that one.
Dimly
lit room. No mexican or thai food before either
ūüėČ

Other then that Marc please do not start Patrick
up,
it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the
counterculture. I much much much prefer the real
Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out this
wall
of words like he, you and all of your staff
always
like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get
Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in the
same
room, to figure out what side everyone is on and
then go run for office or start a PR agency.
Don’t
see how any of you could lose. It’s like talking
to
teflon. I truly do understand why none of you are
in
prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before it
starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of you
talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a
political conference in the professional weirdo
zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett
going
off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like the
verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! ūüėČ
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J
Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you, and
didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it could be
construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to me.
I’m
not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly all of
whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to
start
arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. ¬†But I’m just
gonna
assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the planets,
and
it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer
their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining
sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not get
you
unsprung.  Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant, and
throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction
with
patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250
people
in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from that
number… ¬†The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an extremely
wide
spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music,
scents,
and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence of
ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love
classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? — in
short, people display
individual preferences.  Allowing them this
freedom
appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.
Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients respond
well
to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
others.  Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these
exact
conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know many
people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that
whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a description
of
my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of
ibogaine.  I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps
the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech
patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency.  And on the
flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems.  Oh
well.
C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT
YOU,
or just angry
in
general; nope. ¬†I’m having a pretty cool day,
and I
just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I
commented.

What I’m curious ’bout is: what do you do if
someone is having a
really
bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal
experience, the answer
to this
question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine and
all
other entheogens
— or
even tweaking out on crack for that matter: you
INTERACT with them,

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying, and
radiate that.  They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of whatever
negative headtrip
they’re
in. ¬†Well, with crack this doesn’t really work
out
some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the
vibe,
delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree
about
those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I commented.
This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is highly
cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you
kill
all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the
TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say tripping
out,
I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.
Kinda
like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level
of
experience.

But… ¬†A lotta people don’t necessarily like,
want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and
listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for
different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: A J Dietterle <ajdietterle@dccnet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Iboga Therapy House
Date: February 26, 2003 at 4:33:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Linette, our primary facillitator, who has experienced a profound iboga
experience, is with our patients at all times. She has offered to write of
her experience later this week.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 26, 2003 at 1:27:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marc – and Marco

I think there is a little “better than” going on on
both sides.

Marc, before I forget. You may wish to get a heart
monitor (I think lost a couple emails when my computer
did the “blue screen of death” thingie). They have
wireless models, an alarm would be good. This way you
don’t have to disturb their visions. TO that, it can
be hard to get/stay into them, it was especially so
for me my first time – it worked just fine anyway.

Marc, there are different ways to take ibo and the
environment, patient/initiate, addiction or not, to
what?, the dosage, type of ibo, set/setting (yadda)
make a big difference in the reaction. IMO, you may be
setting yourself up for a rude awakening by
discounting others with FAR MORE and VARIED and
different experiences than you have. I understand that
in your enviromnemt things (so far…) have been this
generic ibo type symptoms that you describe,
sound+light sensitivity, visions (which you place
undue importance in IN THAT, one can have just as
successful/enlightening experience with as without
visions – though differently. As if it is some kind of
failure not to have them – that is not saying they are
undesirable either.

We dose them the way we do because it is neutral.

Which is a good GENERIC place to start, especially for
an addict. Most of what you are hearing is from people
who are NOT risks to themselves during the ibo trip,
people who have done ibo more than once, on their own
terms – not ones dictated to them BY THE ENVIRONMENT
(I am not saying you are FORCING them – you sometimes
are SO THICK), the set/setting – not that most of them
won’t want deep quiet/no light… that is pretty
standard/general/generic. In your environment there is
more control, which is a + when dealing with addicts,
but I certainly don’t need that, neither does any
regular poster here. FYI, After several hours the
sensitivity level turns down a bit, there could also
be some acustic thing going on where you are that is
particularly (in your environment/setting) that is
different than others. Also, some places, you are more
use to sounds, if I did ibo home I am more use to
certain sounds than if I were do do it somewhere else.
Not all sounds are annoying (relatively speaking),
thunder/lightning/rain (think tropical, big
rain/thunder)… got along pretty well on ibo for the
sound it was making, quite natural and maybe fitting
since I am sure people have been taking ibogaine in
thunderstorms for a very long time.

The patient can request
music, but they never do. They can ask for anything
they want, but they, we

My first request would be to GET THE FUCK AWAY WITH
THAT WATER, everytime I puke or piss… Marc, it may
be in your environment that it works (not that I
agree) but it can be dangerous IMO to force all that
fluids and simply overkill especially for someone at
home doing it themselves. People  need to be well
hydrated, that is great.

think fortunately, want to be focused on their
‘movie-of-their-life’
experience and resist any and all distractions.

If that toots your horn, have at it. It is nice, great
even. Maybe, after a few hundred “visions” of various,
movie, non-movie, stills, zoom types and having todo
and having nothing to do with “my life” at times they
got, well, big deal – or sometimes NOT having visions,
thinking “what, that was it, got cheated”… only to
find out after that the vision-fewer/less/free
ibogaine trip turned out to be some of my most
successful. Ever think that maybe if someone is
focusing (I am splitting hairs because you are doing
the same, but don’t know it) all that energy on seeing
visions, they won’t have enough left for action? It
was one such, “bla” ibo session of about 12mg/kg
(thought I didn’t do quite enough) that 1 week later,
I tossed a 28 year old smoking habit and never looked
back… That was one successful ibo session, not that
you could tell from the experience.

We don’t impose rules on our patients, they tell us
what they want. They

That is not what I am hearing, though that is what you
are saying. You have a rather strict, controlled
environment and that is cool (for you), certainly got
its +’s.

haven’t want to hear people talking while they are
concentrating, they don’t
want any background music, they tell us to stop any
music (later they may
ask for some, but that is rare), they don’t want to
smell eggs cooking,
incense burning, fireplaces burning or any
distracting/disturbing smell or
sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After all,
we are here to offer
comfort and assistance to their experience. They
dislike hearing the phone
ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive to
light and they want it
stopped if it is bright or even nominally
illuminated.

All standard, generic, what people want when they are
being treated for the first time for the most part. It
is NOT you are RIGHT and WE are WRONG, it is NOT we
are RIGHT and you are WRONG – it is in your situation,
with your patients, who are addicts, where you are,
with your procedures, with the whole thing that you
project – that is how it turns out. IN THE IBOGAINE
WORLD (which is not this tiny microcosm of ibogaine
treatment that you have, where you are, with the kind
of ibogaine you use, with your patients, with your
doses, in your environment, with the things YOU tell
your patients, with the
sounds/smells/longitude/latitude that YOU are oat…)
people have many varied experiences and reactions to
ibogaine.

We have a creative environment here. We have art
materials, a guitar,
movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the
forest surrounds us and
they are encouraged to take nature walks, meditate
on the pier (we have a
dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The
current patient is here for 8
days, this isn’t just ibogaine, this is hopefully
REINVENTION, and we are
here to help them, not control them. I am confident
this is already the most
suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of any
place I have ever read
about, heard about.

To you in your experience, it even sounds great (to
me) for what you are using it for. I am sure Dr. Mash
thinks the same thing of her treatment, and Sara
thinks (and does) she is doing a fine job, and Eric
Taub does a wonderful job too…

There are however things you do (and they do that you
don’t) that can be of great help TO YOUR CLIENTS in
particular. Truth, for me, it wouldn’t have done any
better, I simply did not need it, I was in relapse and
knew what to do to “get a life” – as in I didn’t need
you to tell/show me, didn’t need a 2nd treatment
within a month, I didn’t need a “treatment center” so
Mash wouldn’t have done it either.

Our patients get great care here
and they tell us so.

I’m sure they do and sure you are. I don’t think
anyone disputed that at all.

Also, as to the issue of music, playing music that
is a favorite of your
past is potentially flawed, after all, our favorite

And so is your analysis.

music is usually that
with strong emotional associations from our past.

Well, in my case not, music was never part of my
“past”.

I’m not sure these
patients want the familiar and comforting, they are

Ya know, again, in your situation with your patients,
you are “not sure” but obviously seems that way to you
– then have it it your way. But let me throw this at
you, one of the reasons I like music is when HCL comes
on hard, it can be quite uncomfortable (but you
wouldn’t know), so I get myself very relaxed, into it,
meditation music, till I gain altitude (get UP there
and settle down). When I say music, I mean very quiet
stuff. When I say incense, I don’t mean smoke the
whole house, I mean light one, run around the house
for a few minutes, do the room I will be in (maybe
they don’t like your kind, try Nag Champa sometime)
and then I put it out and do my thing (ibo), not stink
up the whole house. Same with sounds, it starts out
low (for me, with what I am doing ibo for, the way I
do it) and gets lower, YOU wouldn’t hardly hear it –
but oops, you wouldn’t know would you? You are less
sensitive (empathic) to someone on ibo than say my
mate would be or I would be if I were treating
someone… Marc, with a look, a comment, a movement I
can feel what they feel in a way you will never know
and never can respond to quite the same way. Vivian
(my Fiancee) went through the same thing, I complained
about things like smells and sounds (…) and to her,
she was being quiet… till she did it. THEN after she
did it, she knew what I meant and now, if she needs
to do something she is sensitive to how it will sound
to me, what level and how delivered will the sound be
nice or not nice – YOU DO NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE
NOT TRIED IBOGAINE. You say the patients report, well
great for them but that does not give you first hand
knowledge – as Marko pointed out, how was her dinner?

I have never had any patient react to ‘silence’ as
though it is something
sinister as you suggest, Carla.

I understand Carla completely, wonder why?

Your statement is remarkable in that you obviously
HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
proper ibogaine experience. All our patients

Marc,  now you are talking with your head up your ass
about something you are not qualified to speak about.

I mean you are doing a great job (rookie, like that?
didn’t think so) and all but again, you are not the be
all and end all of iboga knowledge and it is highly
arrogant of you.

experienced a movie screen/
fast moving motion-picture of their life thats lasts
for 8 to 30 hours. All
of them, thats what we expect of the treatment.
While this autobiographical
movie of intense proportions is going on, the
patient does not want
interruptions or distractions. They tell us to be
quiet, no music, no
smells,

Geez, we know, enough already. YOUR VERY LIMITED (you
repeat, I will repeat) experience is not the sum total
of ibogaine experiences or the only way it should be
done. Quite obviously you are sitting here arguing
with a number of people who have had different
experiences (quite successful ones I may add) that
differ from yours – oh, but you didn’t have one, you
just watched (yes, that was a dig, you do more than
watch).

PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the
entire time, we can’t
even play music for ourselves. We answer the phone
outside! (It never snows
here though, so its not so bad)

And (again, I do this cause some are THICKER than
others, you are one) yes, that is pretty generic ibo
for your class of patients, with the ibo you are
using, in your enviroment, with your procedures, with
your walls, your floors, your staff… that does NOT
mean in someone elses environment, someone elses
ibogaine/dose/reason for taking ibo, in some other
kind of patient (eg not addicted/less
addicted…previously have taken ibo…) wouldn’t want
something different.

Mare LISTEN CLOSELY

Every single ibo experience is different – and I don’t
give a flying fuck what it looks like to you from the
outside.

Yes, there are a bunch of rather standard generic type
symptoms, stuff that happens…

When someone is addicted, fuckecd up, toxic (in
whatever various flavors) it is different than someone
who is not, someone who is clean, someone who is
happy!!! And generally they (we) would take somewhat
less ibo (though I have taken more than you use
several times). Then was then, which is not now – 2
different times. It is just like them not having
visions (or fewer) the first time but have them once
they are cleaner. It will also be different 6 months
down the road (when some start to need another dose)
and different 1, 2, 3, 4… years down the road. Marc,
you have no such experience, why are you so dam
thickheaded about it. Sorry but what are you trying to
do, be a snot-nose, come along, treat 20 people and
think you know it all? That is going to get you in
trouble my son. Again, NOT THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING A
WONDERFUL JOB, a service to humanity and all that
stuff, you are (just put your ego somewhere else,
better dose yourself, that’ll do the trick).

Carla, that you have said the following means the
dose was way too low:

Marc, that means you are inexperienced. Not everyone
gets visions and they don’t happen 100% of the time.
POINT, last time I didn’t get them and did a higher
dose than I had done in a long time. Also, I have had
“movie” scenes but not always and still got visions.

And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people
like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

If you want the movie  for your own life, with all
its revelations it can
provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You can
listen to whatever music
you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga
experience has for you, it
will be much more vital than what playing a familiar
tune can do for you.

What we provide is a neutral environment that
reflects the person’s needs as
the iboga experience progresses. We take all our
cues from the patient.

As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla, etc.,
I am grateful its
myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are helping
people here and not some
of the people on this listserve!

Ya know, there are good people in the world that know
things that are different than you do, that does not
mean they are not good people, don’t know stuff. Maybe
it is you who have the issue and need to look in the
mirror – but DO NOT DO IBOGAINE. I do not mean to say
you are wrong/unsuccessful in your methods, hey, they
work for you, right? Just too bad you don’t want to
learn something new and everyone else is wrong – that
is how it sounds Marc.

Brett

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at
carlambarnes@yahoo.com wrote:

Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick whenever
possible. Save the politician when running for
office
or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem, anger
management issues are ok as long as the guy is
cute,
you qualify. As long as you don’t hit women, never
change.

Marc I understand your being a great guy and
helpful
but I’m a little weirded out. I too cant imagine
doing
ibogaine without some music. I like alternative
and
some ambient, I don’t like total silence. I know
youre
trying to do something good but it almost sounds
like
punishment or something, you stick people into a
dark
room with nothing to hear or smell and dont talk
to
them??????? why on earth would you do that? I dont
know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but I
love
what flowers and different perfume smells like
when
I’m on ibogaine.

Why do you do that? I dont think one person who
has
done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like
doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people
like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

I don’t ever attack anyone and I’m not starting
now
well no I did get upset about the paying blacks
not to
have children messages a long time ago here, but
why
on earth do you dose people like that Marc?

Carla B

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without
music
bro. I have got to go strongly with that one.
Dimly
lit room. No mexican or thai food before either
ūüėČ

Other then that Marc please do not start Patrick
up,
it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the
counterculture. I much much much prefer the real
Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out this
wall
of words like he, you and all of your staff
always
like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get
Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in the
same
room, to figure out what side everyone is on and
then go run for office or start a PR agency.
Don’t
see how any of you could lose. It’s like talking
to
teflon. I truly do understand why none of you are
in
prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before it
starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of you
talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a
political conference in the professional weirdo
zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett
going
off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like the
verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! ūüėČ
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J
Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you, and
didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it could be
construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to me.
I’m
not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly all of
whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to
start
arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. ¬†But I’m just
gonna
assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the planets,
and
it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer
their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining
sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not get
you
unsprung.  Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant, and
throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction
with
patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250
people
in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from that
number… ¬†The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an extremely
wide
spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music,
scents,
and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence of
ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love
classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? — in
short, people display
individual preferences.  Allowing them this
freedom
appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.
Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients respond
well
to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
others.  Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these
exact
conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know many
people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that
whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a description
of
my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of
ibogaine.  I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps
the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech
patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency.  And on the
flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems.  Oh
well.
C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT
YOU,
or just angry
in
general; nope. ¬†I’m having a pretty cool day,
and I
just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I
commented.

What I’m curious ’bout is: what do you do if
someone is having a
really
bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal
experience, the answer
to this
question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine and
all
other entheogens
— or
even tweaking out on crack for that matter: you
INTERACT with them,

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying, and
radiate that.  They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of whatever
negative headtrip
they’re
in. ¬†Well, with crack this doesn’t really work
out
some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the
vibe,
delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree
about
those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I commented.
This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is highly
cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you
kill
all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the
TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say tripping
out,
I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.
Kinda
like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level
of
experience.

But… ¬†A lotta people don’t necessarily like,
want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and
listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for
different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
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__________________________________________________
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From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My response to Marko
Date: February 26, 2003 at 5:00:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marc,

you described yourself in very nice light: Sandra’s explanation added a bit ūüėČ

At 23:46 25.2.2003, you wrote:
Marko:

I have no idea whats going on in your head.

That is good! I have ;-))

The four of us work full time at
the Iboga Therapy House because we learn lots, we like all our patients (we
still stay in contact with all of them), we enjoy the adventure of watching
people heal, we love seeing their lives improve. We actually have fun doing
it!

That is no good. I mean, it’s good to have fun, but IBO is no fun; it’s deadly serious!

I have no idea what is in the INDRA extract, but I am fully confident it
works, and it works in the dose range my reading states it should.

I have no idea what’s in my government, but I am fully confident it works, and it works in the range other governments work.

Oops, sorry, you won’t understand this.

Howard
Lotsof has been very supportive, and candidly, I value Howard’s friendship
and supportiveness above all other considerations.

Howard is great!
=)

I trust the INDRA extract. Over 20 doses and it has worked – MAGNIFICENTLY!

MAGNIFICENTLY probably means that you have 100% long-term success? Or is it just that people are under IBO influence?

I personally dose all the patients so my staff does not suffer the legal
liabilities, if any should occur. I am present for any major decision
regardinmg the patient.

I understand.

I trust the INDRA extract because it works, the results match protocols set
out by Lotsof and others in the published work.

I trust the Ibogaine Hydrochloride I got from you. It seems to do what I
want it to do, and so I have confidence in that, though I have never had it
analyzed in a lab. And you seem alot stranger and weirder than the person I
get the Indra extract from. You are, like some others, really about
yourself, while impugning me.

I wouldn’t agree with you. Do you remember how all of this started? You advised Soren: “You should use the Indra extract”

After 20 people treated, you are suddenly an EXPERT! You know what people should do…

This is wrong, very wrong! If somebody E-mails you “I’m from Oregon. Which seeds should I use to grow pot?” then you can advise him. But with IBO it’s not such a case.

Well, that’s my opinion. As everything I write.

The extract from Ethnogarden was originally sold to me as 55% – 60% ibogaine
extract, after lab results came back, it was a 24% extract, similar to INDRA
extract. This caused a crisis of confidence in that product, although we
have used it in proportions similar to Indra extract with good results.

I never saw Ethnogarden extract. It was offered to me, yes, but I have no confidence in extract. We did some extract ourselves, and it was working MAGNIFICENTLY, but people had so different reactions to it that we don’t use it anymore.

This, of course, doesn’t mean that extract is no good!

All three products get our confidence because we are seeing desirable
results and no health anomalies.

I do not charge anything to our patients. Any donations are directed toward
charities not my own ( in other words, people offer to give money, we direct
them to Pivot Legal Services, a legal service for the poor and marginalized
in dealing with police brutality).

That’s VERY nice of you!

All food, lodging, care, ibogaine, are
completely paid for by me. I am a capitalist, like George Soros, Andrew
Carnegie, two great men who have contributed much of their wealth to the
advancement of reason and the public good.

I don’t know Carnegie (except that he a hall for concerts), but I do know G. Soros. There’s no greatness in him. His Open Society Institute made too much damage in Slovenija!!

I earn alot of money then I spend
it on hundreds of charitable and activist/idealist causes each year. I spend
$500,000 each year on charitable and activist/idealist projects, none of
which return revenue to me.

Nice guy ūüėČ
Maybe, after ingesting IBO, you’ll find other priorities to put money in.
One of those Eastern philosophes said something like this: It’s not the point to give a man a fish to feed him, the point is to teach this man how to catch fish!

(Hope you understand)

I brought up ibogaine prominently in the last Vancouver election for Mayor.
I expect that the man who did get elected (Larry Campbell), who is a very
good man, will give the opening remarks at the Vancouver Ibogaine Conference
this August. He and I shared many ideas on drug addiction, he is a good
person who was Chief Coroner and he understands much about drug addiction. I
ran for Mayor not to get elected but to influence him (which I did) and the
public. You can go to marc4mayor.com  (I believe its still up) and see that
ibogaine was featured prominently in my campaign.

Yes, I’ve seen it.

I run in every election
(ten times now), spend a pile of my money, to influence drug issues.

No wonder. All (or almost all) of your bussiness is based on drugs. You have to protect your bussiness, right?

Maybe
you have heard how the environment in Vancouver and area has been after nine
years of my unrelenting work here.

No.

For example, we run this Therapyy House
transparently and with a fully informed public, and we have no yet received
one line of criticism from any source (except here, of course, from you and
others who claim to have the inside track on my motives!).

I’ve already said : “Marc Emery, you’re doing something really good at ITH, no matter why you do it! I openly admit that =)”

My criticism is not about ITH, remember? It’s about you, about your ignorance and your feeling of superiority.

In fact, various
inquiries from media, The New Scientist, medical doctors, all find us
professional and free of conflicts. We are here to help, period. And we do
that.

I’m not the media, I’m not MD, and I agree that you help.

I have my way of doing things, but I have 3 magazines, an internet TV
station, the worlds largest marijuana seed business,

I never imagined that Canada uses soooo much pot seeds. Or is majority of them going somewhere else?

am president of the BC
Marijuana Party, so I work in co-operation with many, many people. My
energy, ideas, enthusiasm attracts many willing and excited workers involved
in dozens of incredible projects which actually materialize!

And, I suppose, these project back-up your bussiness ;-))

My co-workers
are paid well and receive the utmost consideration. I live not much
different from them. After being arrested 10 times, jailed 8 times and
raided 5 times in the last 9 years, I am a capitalist who has learned to
live without owning anything (as the police have seized my assets on four
occasions), so I am on the same planet as every one else. No property,
assets, cars, money in pocket for me. I go to jail for my beliefs, and I
have gladly given up my wealth to see ideas come to fruition. I have given
money to Dana Beals (lots) for Cures-Not-Wars, I have donated $4,000 to Sara
Glatt in her time of need, I just sent Howard $1,000 to help him out in the
conference in Washington.

You are really a nice person!

Money talks, hah?

Sandra K. wrote her comments because she is proud of her work and loves to
work with me.

Yeah, I’ve read her E-mail where she says: “Yes, my email may
have seemed like it was intended to smooth things over because it was. It comes from my training in facilitation and I’m also generally a pretty diplomatic person. ” And that she writes her own opinion. As we all do… But basically, I was right: Sandra wrote that E-mail because she had to, she felt like writing it. I don’t mean that she was under your pressure… See, recently one of our Ministers signed a declaration in which Slovenia supports USA attacking Iraq. And his secretary immediately started to smooth things over.

See any similarity? Or you don’t understand?

I have over 40 co-workers, and you know what, I’ve only let go
2 people in 6 years, and no one has ever quit working for me in 6 years! So
there simply aren’t many (if any) ¬†disgruntled employees or ex-girlfriends
around. Maybe Marko, ¬†you’re simply listening to those voices in your own
head!

Maybe, Marc, just maybe you’re right: I’m simply listening to those voices in my own head! (anyway, they are reliable ;-))

You know what? I’m finishing this, it takes too much time. I have better things to do, so let me summarise:

1. Marc Emery, you’re doing something really good at ITH, no matter why you do it!

2. I hope that in future you’ll be VERY careful when advising people at this list. And elsewhere.

3. I don’t trust you. I think that you’re corrupted (by my standards)

4. I might be wrong. In this case I apologise (but ONLY in this case! ;-))

5. You’re one of the best things which happened to “IBO movement”. You have resources (all kinds of them) and you know that IBO works.

6. The bad side of (5) is that you’re a criminal.

7. You’re not trustworthy.

Of course, this is only my opinion. As is my opinion that you should take IBO…

So, this is it. I don’t expect answers, I have more important things to do than dragging this on…

Anyway, thank you for your time ;-))

Marko

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 11:27 AM, Ustanova Iboga at Iboga@guest.arnes.si wrote:

> Hi Marc,
>
> I thought that you took a short holidays (maybe because there are some
> unpleasant questions waiting in E-mail? and people tend to forget in a few
> days?) and let Sandra k. smooth everything a bit… or I could be mistaken
> and Sandra k. did that on her own initiative, being a loyal employee… I
> don’t really know, just guessing, but knowing political behaviour, that’s
> exactly it!!
>
> Not only that (knowing political behaviour), guess what? I received several
> E-mails from people that you were close with, and the picture of you is
> getting worse and worse… I won’t go into details, could unintentionally
> give someone away…
>
> Now I’m SURE that you don’t do treatments for free. OK, nobody has to pay
> anything, you pay all bills (with a little help of Sacrament of Transition,
> huh?), but you are a capitalist, and capitalists don’t throw money through
> the window, do they? No, they don’t ;-))
>
> So, my guess is that you’ll use ITH as political capital at next elections.
> My second guess is that you’ll use ITH to show the judge (if something
> unplanned happens, and you end in front of him) that you’re a good person,
> you care for those nobody else does. Volounteer social service type of
> person, right?
> My third guess is – no, this one isn’t for a public list like this =)
>
> Marc Emery, you’re doing something really good at ITH, no matter why you do
> it! I openly admit that =)
>
> But on the other hand, I really hope that you don’t interfere with what is
> done there. I hope that you let your staff doing everything. My opinion is
> that you’re too <a lot of negative descriptions> to do this. And if
> something really bad happens in your ITH, then people won’t point only at
> you, but whole IBO movement will get a BIG black spot!
>
> Do you remember how this conversation started? You advised Soren: “You
> should use the Indra extract”
>
> I suggest that Sandra k. or someone else from your staff advise people
> instead of you (without advertising;-)). You can probably lend her your
> E-mail addresse, and allow her to sign with your name if you want to appear
> as it’s you…
>
> It seems that you won’t answer my previous E-mail… so here’s the
> important question again; can you PLEASE answer?:
>
> Do you know what is inside (what is it composed of) IBO that ITH uses?
>
> If you don’t answer this, then I’ll have to assume that you don’t have the
> slightest idea. And giving people something as powerful as IBO without
> having the slightest idea of what is given to them is dangerous!
>
>
> Marko
>
>
>

From: A J Dietterle <ajdietterle@dccnet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Marc’s comments on Carla’s remarks
Date: February 26, 2003 at 12:31:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carla

We dose them the way we do because it is neutral. The patient can request
music, but they never do. They can ask for anything they want, but they, we
think fortunately, want to be focused on their ‘movie-of-their-life’
experience and resist any and all distractions.

We don’t impose rules on our patients, they tell us what they want. They
haven’t want to hear people talking while they are concentrating, they don’t
want any background music, they tell us to stop any music (later they may
ask for some, but that is rare), they don’t want to smell eggs cooking,
incense burning, fireplaces burning or any distracting/disturbing smell or
sound (to them). THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY. After all, we are here to offer
comfort and assistance to their experience. They dislike hearing the phone
ring, dogs barking. All are extremely sensitive to light and they want it
stopped if it is bright or even nominally illuminated.

We have a creative environment here. We have art materials, a guitar,
movies, cartoons, weight training equipment, the forest surrounds us and
they are encouraged to take nature walks, meditate on the pier (we have a
dockside on the ocean, spectacular view). The current patient is here for 8
days, this isn’t just ibogaine, this is hopefully REINVENTION, and we are
here to help them, not control them. I am confident this is already the most
suitable iboga therapy place to take iboga of any place I have ever read
about, heard about. Our patients get great care here and they tell us so.

Also, as to the issue of music, playing music that is a favorite of your
past is potentially flawed, after all, our favorite music is usually that
with strong emotional associations from our past. I’m not sure these
patients want the familiar and comforting, they are trying to discover great
secrets about themselves, with our assistance. They are not trying to get a
groove on here! Music of the past is the PAST! We are helping them go into
the future, and as I said, the summaries I have offered here are summaries
of a very successful patient routine that reflects what they have wanted,
getting beyond the limitations of their past behaviour and histories.

I have never had any patient react to ‘silence’ as though it is something
sinister as you suggest, Carla.

Your statement is remarkable in that you obviously HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED a
proper ibogaine experience. All our patients experienced a movie screen/
fast moving motion-picture of their life thats lasts for 8 to 30 hours. All
of them, thats what we expect of the treatment. While this autobiographical
movie of intense proportions is going on, the patient does not want
interruptions or distractions. They tell us to be quiet, no music, no
smells, PLEASE! We have to tip toe around them the entire time, we can’t
even play music for ourselves. We answer the phone outside! (It never snows
here though, so its not so bad)

Carla, that you have said the following means the dose was way too low:

And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

If you want the movie  for your own life, with all its revelations it can
provide you, come to Iboga Therapy House. You can listen to whatever music
you want, but when you see what a full-on iboga experience has for you, it
will be much more vital than what playing a familiar tune can do for you.

What we provide is a neutral environment that reflects the person’s needs as
the iboga experience progresses. We take all our cues from the patient.

As I read these responses from Patrick, Carla, etc., I am grateful its
myself, Linette, Terry and Sandra who are helping people here and not some
of the people on this listserve!

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 8:25 PM, Carla Barnes at carlambarnes@yahoo.com wrote:

Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick whenever
possible. Save the politician when running for office
or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem, anger
management issues are ok as long as the guy is cute,
you qualify. As long as you don’t hit women, never
change.

Marc I understand your being a great guy and helpful
but I’m a little weirded out. I too cant imagine doing
ibogaine without some music. I like alternative and
some ambient, I don’t like total silence. I know youre
trying to do something good but it almost sounds like
punishment or something, you stick people into a dark
room with nothing to hear or smell and dont talk to
them??????? why on earth would you do that? I dont
know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but I love
what flowers and different perfume smells like when
I’m on ibogaine.

Why do you do that? I dont think one person who has
done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

I don’t ever attack anyone and I’m not starting now
well no I did get upset about the paying blacks not to
have children messages a long time ago here, but why
on earth do you dose people like that Marc?

Carla B

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without music
bro. I have got to go strongly with that one. Dimly
lit room. No mexican or thai food before either ūüėČ

Other then that Marc please do not start Patrick up,
it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the
counterculture. I much much much prefer the real
Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out this wall
of words like he, you and all of your staff always
like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get
Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in the same
room, to figure out what side everyone is on and
then go run for office or start a PR agency. Don’t
see how any of you could lose. It’s like talking to
teflon. I truly do understand why none of you are in
prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before it
starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of you
talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a
political conference in the professional weirdo
zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett going
off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like the
verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! ūüėČ
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J
Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you, and
didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it could be
construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to me. ¬†I’m
not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly all of
whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to start
arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. ¬†But I’m just gonna
assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the planets, and
it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer
their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining
sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not get you
unsprung.  Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant, and
throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction with
patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250 people
in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from that
number… ¬†The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an extremely wide
spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music, scents,
and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence of
ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love
classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? — in
short, people display
individual preferences.  Allowing them this freedom
appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.
Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients respond well
to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
others.  Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these exact
conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know many
people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that
whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a description of
my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of
ibogaine.  I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps
the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech
patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency.  And on the
flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems.  Oh well.
C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT YOU,
or just angry
in
general; nope. ¬†I’m having a pretty cool day, and I
just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I
commented.

What I’m curious ’bout is: what do you do if
someone is having a
really
bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal
experience, the answer
to this
question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine and all
other entheogens
— or
even tweaking out on crack for that matter: you
INTERACT with them,

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying, and
radiate that.  They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of whatever
negative headtrip
they’re
in. ¬†Well, with crack this doesn’t really work out
some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the vibe,
delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree about
those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I commented.
This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is highly cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you kill
all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the
TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say tripping out,
I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.  Kinda
like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level of
experience.

But… ¬†A lotta people don’t necessarily like,
want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and
listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for
different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Further to Patrick’s comments
Date: February 25, 2003 at 11:25:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, please stick with poetic patrick whenever
possible. Save the politician when running for office
or defending Mash. Fuck is not a problem, anger
management issues are ok as long as the guy is cute,
you qualify. As long as you don’t hit women, never
change.

Marc I understand your being a great guy and helpful
but I’m a little weirded out. I too cant imagine doing
ibogaine without some music. I like alternative and
some ambient, I don’t like total silence. I know youre
trying to do something good but it almost sounds like
punishment or something, you stick people into a dark
room with nothing to hear or smell and dont talk to
them??????? why on earth would you do that? I dont
know if patrick was being sarcastic or not but I love
what flowers and different perfume smells like when
I’m on ibogaine.

Why do you do that? I dont think one person who has
done ibogaine agrees with it. And if its like doing a
movie then I missed the movie, that’s what people like
to write about it but if its going to the movies I
sure missed the movie part of it.

I don’t ever attack anyone and I’m not starting now
well no I did get upset about the paying blacks not to
have children messages a long time ago here, but why
on earth do you dose people like that Marc?

Carla B

— crownofthorns@hushmail.com wrote:

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without music
bro. I have got to go strongly with that one. Dimly
lit room. No mexican or thai food before either ūüėČ

Other then that Marc please do not start Patrick up,
it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the
counterculture. I much much much prefer the real
Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out this wall
of words like he, you and all of your staff always
like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get
Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in the same
room, to figure out what side everyone is on and
then go run for office or start a PR agency. Don’t
see how any of you could lose. It’s like talking to
teflon. I truly do understand why none of you are in
prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before it
starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of you
talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a
political conference in the professional weirdo
zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett going
off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like the
verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! ūüėČ
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J
Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you, and
didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it could be
construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to me. ¬†I’m
not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly all of
whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to start
arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. ¬†But I’m just gonna
assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the planets, and
it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer
their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining
sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not get you
unsprung.  Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant, and
throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction with
patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250 people
in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from that
number… ¬†The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an extremely wide
spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music, scents,
and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence of
ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love
classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? — in
short, people display
individual preferences.  Allowing them this freedom
appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.
Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients respond well
to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with
others.  Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these exact
conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know many
people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that
whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a description of
my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of
ibogaine.  I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps
the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech
patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency.  And on the
flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems.  Oh well.
C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT YOU,
or just angry
in
general; nope. ¬†I’m having a pretty cool day, and I
just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I
commented.

What I’m curious ’bout is: what do you do if
someone is having a
really
bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal
experience, the answer
to this
question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine and all
other entheogens
— or
even tweaking out on crack for that matter: you
INTERACT with them,

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying, and
radiate that.  They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of whatever
negative headtrip
they’re
in. ¬†Well, with crack this doesn’t really work out
some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the vibe,
delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree about
those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I commented.
This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is highly cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you kill
all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the
TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say tripping out,
I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.  Kinda
like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level of
experience.

But… ¬†A lotta people don’t necessarily like,
want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and
listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for
different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 25, 2003 at 9:36:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I used to do CAD, then I joined dot com and I’m not sure exactly what I did. Something with a computer, I’m sure I made a lot of phone calls. Now I do graphics design. So far I have managed to stay away from the WWW end, hope my luck holds out. I go to Berkeley, I’m getting a Ph.D. in psych ūüėČ No joke. Not sure what my thesis will be yet. Maybe this list ūüėČ No joke either. It’d make a great one ūüôā

I did methamphetamine, then heroin, pills, cleaned up. Found mindvox was back online after a 5 years break ūüėČ after cleaning up, found ibogaine here, did it, changed me for the better.

Fair enough, you answered my questions. I don’t much care who goes where and there is never too much truth in advertising. Everyone has their reasons I found it a little hard to swallow when I read your msg because you all do the same thing bro.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:58:10 -0800 Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
I think this latest conversation has been very intriguing.

Marc, I like you.  I like what you do.  I think it is wonderful
that you are
helping out so many people in need.  If I lived in Vancouver I would
have
voted for you. ¬†Keep doing what you’re doing it is awesome. ¬†If
we are ever
in the same place at the same time I would like to get together
for dinner
or something, my treat.

Marko, I like you too.  You (usually) give very grounded advice.

Curtis, I also like you.  You are a thinker, a researcher and make

provocative comments/insights.  What do you do?  I will now respond
to this:
“If a gram costs less then $200, where does the other $3,000 you
want for
treatment go to?”

We are charging for a service, not just ibo.  The money goes to
pay for our
staff, our facility, our van, insurance, medical equipment, food,
etc.  We
would love to be able to give all our treatments for free, however
that
would be impossible.  Maybe many years from now circumstances will
change
and we will be able to.  Right now we still live in a society where
things
cost money.  We are not getting rich down here (I live check to
check, and I
drive an 88 ford).  I hope that this gives you some clearer perspective
on
what it costs to run a treatment center.  Marc says that it costs
him $1000
out of his own pocket for each patient he treats. You really have
no idea
what are financial situation is or how much we charge on average
or how many
clients we treat.  You are making assumptions.

Also, the charity work we have done has proven to have little success.

Unfortunately, people (at least the several that we have helped)
do not
appreciate what they get for free.

‘There are individuals who advertise on the Internet and they might
charge
less for their treatment but you need to be aware that they administer

treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal training in handling emergencies

and might be reluctant to take a patient with complications to
the ER.’

This is on our website because we feel that it is unfair to an individual
to
be manipulated into going to treatment where they are expecting
the services
that we do offer only to find out they are in a hotel room someplace.

People who wish to do ibo should make an informed choice and not
be lied to.
How about asking some of these practitioners why they are charging
several
thousand dollars.  Where is their overhead?

And followed by a stab as Mash without naming her ‘The Ibogaine
Association
is the most active program with the greatest number of patients
per month.
Our goal is to provide safe treatment in a comfortable environment,

accessible and at a reasonable price. There are no hidden costs
with our
program. Licensed physicians with extensive experience administering

ibogaine are constantly present and supervising the treatment.
Beware of
ibogaine treatment centers that talk negatively about their colleagues,
or
use scare tactics to get you into their program. Some centers are
overly
expensive, so listen to what they say with skepticism, as the advice
from
these “experts” will not be objective. There are other treatment
providers
advertising on the Internet who do not administer ibogaine under
medical
supervision. Our main interest is to help as many people as possible,
by
making this new treatment financially reasonable and by providing
adequate
medical care.’

Despite several pleas to mash’s staff to stop an onslaught of defamatory

comments about us and our doctors, her staff continues.  I speak
with people
every week who talk both to us and HV and they tell me the things
that HV
says to try and discredit us.  So this is a proactive statement.

Again, people can do what they wish.  I wish for them to make an
informed
choice about where and how they do ibo. They pay us for a quality
of service
that includes being tended to by doctors and nurses.  What do you
think it
costs to go to other non-ibo treatment centers?  What would it cost
to have
a physician at your service for three to six days in the U.S.?

Randy

Oh and BTW, Brett, I like you too, you always have a lot to offer
here.

_________________________________________________________________
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From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Further to Patrick’s comments
Date: February 25, 2003 at 9:19:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

FWIW I can’t even imagine doing iboga without music bro. I have got to go strongly with that one. Dimly lit room. No mexican or thai food before either ūüėČ

Other then that Marc please do not start Patrick up, it’s like setting off the Karl Rove of the counterculture. I much much much prefer the real Patrick that says fuck and doesn’t put out this wall of words like he, you and all of your staff always like to do.

Why doesn’t everyone donate .10 cents to get Patrick, Marc and all his staff members in the same room, to figure out what side everyone is on and then go run for office or start a PR agency. Don’t see how any of you could lose. It’s like talking to teflon. I truly do understand why none of you are in prison.

No dis to any of you, but please stop before it starts. That is my worst nightmare, all of you talking all at once. It’s like CNN covering a political conference in the professional weirdo zone. Marko going off, Sara going off, Brett going off, I can take in stride. PM & Co. is like the verbal apocalypse.

Peace out and stick with fuck! ūüėČ
Curtis

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:35:34 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you, and didn’t touch on any
of the
other points you made, since I guess it could be construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to me. ¬†I’m not really sure
why
various individuals on the list — nearly all of whom I know, and
think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to start arguing with one
another
at this precise moment in time. ¬†But I’m just gonna assume it’s
the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the planets, and it is the time
of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer their own pathways
to
experience, and the possibility of gaining sufficient insight to
step out
of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not get you unsprung.  Point
taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant, and throwing it in at
the
tail-end of my message may have confused things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction with patients goes.
I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250 people in general; but
out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from that number… ¬†The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an extremely wide spectrum of
responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music, scents, and interaction
with
other individuals while under the influence of ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love classical, Pink Floyd
is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? — in short, people display
individual preferences.  Allowing them this freedom appears to have
no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.  Except, perhaps, to
make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients respond well to dark rooms,
no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with others.  Perhaps this
is
because you are dosing them all under these exact conditions and
not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know many people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that whole, preferred
the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a description of my personal responses
to
various stimuli while under the influence of ibogaine.  I have a
pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps the words “fuck”
and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech patterns — or writing
— with
greater than average frequency.  And on the flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems. ¬†Oh well. ¬†C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT YOU, or just angry
in
general; nope. ¬†I’m having a pretty cool day, and I just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I commented.

What I’m curious ’bout is: what do you do if someone is having a
really
bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal experience, the answer
to this
question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine and all other entheogens
— or
even tweaking out on crack for that matter: you INTERACT with them,

reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying, and radiate that. ¬†They
will
get pulled into your space, and out of whatever negative headtrip
they’re
in. ¬†Well, with crack this doesn’t really work out some of the time
=)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the vibe, delivery, and
overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree about those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I commented. ¬†This doesn’t change
the
fact that I think what you’re doing is highly cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you kill all external
stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the TrIpPing oU+ part of
the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say tripping out, I meant to say
an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.  Kinda like doing any
entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level of experience.

But… ¬†A lotta people don’t necessarily like, want, or need that.
Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 25, 2003 at 8:25:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Personally I have found that everything I really dislike when unaltered,
only intensifies while under.  Meaning shit like new age music, all the
<bWinG> <BwInG> <bw0ng> <BwOnG> crap, fills me with the urge to kill
things, and lands me in a really negative headspace.  The synchroenergizer
tapes do nothing special. ¬†Listening to Peter Gabriel’s “Passions” CD,
which was my early-phase strung-out, get high and fuck all night
soundtrack, before totally losing interest in sex — did not fill me with
great remorse, it just reminded me how much fun it was, and took me to a
really nice space.

Aphex Twin, selected ambient works.

Also interesting and lead me to all sorts of interesting visuals was a cd of
the Gyuto Monk Chants. If you listen closely, they mention the word ibogaine
about 392 times in just the 1st track.

tell yourself:

iboga
iboga
iboga
i-will-begin-again

repeat and fade…

oh yeah, a darkened room is preferable.

and try not to eat croned beef with saurkraut and spicy mustard sandwiches any
sooner than 24 hours prior to dosing.

-gamma

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Further to Patrick’s comments
Date: February 25, 2003 at 7:35:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 02:06:45PM -0800], [A J Dietterle] wrote:

Hey Marc,

Just to open this, I wasn’t attacking you, and didn’t touch on any of the
other points you made, since I guess it could be construed as discussing
information that doesn’t really belong to me. ¬†I’m not really sure why
various individuals on the list — nearly all of whom I know, and think to
be pretty cool people — have all chosen to start arguing with one another
at this precise moment in time. ¬†But I’m just gonna assume it’s the phase
of the moon, or the alignment of the planets, and it is the time of the
season to vent and unload.

LSD and ibogaine are both entheogens, and offer their own pathways to
experience, and the possibility of gaining sufficient insight to step out
of drug dependence.  Of course LSD will not get you unsprung.  Point taken
though, it’s wasn’t particularly relevant, and throwing it in at the
tail-end of my message may have confused things.

As far as the music, scents, and interaction with patients goes. ¬†I can’t
say what exactly happened with roughly 250 people in general; but out of
the 50 or so whom I know personally from that number… ¬†The experience
has been exactly as I described.

To summarize: they have displayed an extremely wide spectrum of responses
to light, darkness, sounds, types of music, scents, and interaction with
other individuals while under the influence of ibogaine.

Some people like new age music, others love classical, Pink Floyd is
highly popular — what’re the odds!?!?!? — in short, people display
individual preferences.  Allowing them this freedom appears to have no
effect on the efficacy of their experience.  Except, perhaps, to make them
feel more comfortable.

If you find that 100% of your patients respond well to dark rooms, no
sounds, no scents, and zero interaction with others.  Perhaps this is
because you are dosing them all under these exact conditions and not
giving them other options.

The reason I commented was because I know many people who have done
ibogaine, and only a very small subset from that whole, preferred the
conditions you describe.

My post WAS all about me, it was a description of my personal responses to
various stimuli while under the influence of ibogaine.  I have a pretty
disparate collection of backgrounds, and perhaps the words “fuck” and
“shit” find themselves present in my speech patterns — or writing — with
greater than average frequency.  And on the flipside, anger management
issues are certainly one of my problems. ¬†Oh well. ¬†C’est la Vie.

If you took it to mean I was angry, angry AT YOU, or just angry in
general; nope. ¬†I’m having a pretty cool day, and I just saw something
scroll by that I strongly disagreed with; so I commented.

What I’m curious ’bout is: what do you do if someone is having a really
bad trip and freaking out?  In my personal experience, the answer to this
question is EXACTLY THE SAME for ibogaine and all other entheogens — or
even tweaking out on crack for that matter: you INTERACT with them,
reassure them, BELIEVE what you’re saying, and radiate that. ¬†They will
get pulled into your space, and out of whatever negative headtrip they’re
in. ¬†Well, with crack this doesn’t really work out some of the time =)

The words don’t really matter, it’s just the vibe, delivery, and overall
tone and level of what you are emitting.

Thusly, to wrap up; hey, I STRONGLY disagree about those particular
aspects of whatcha mentioned — so I commented. ¬†This doesn’t change the
fact that I think what you’re doing is highly cool.

I guess what it comes down to is; yeah, if you kill all external stimulus,
then you are certainly going to amplify the TrIpPing oU+ part of the
experience — whoopsie, we don’t say tripping out, I meant to say an
oneiric state replete with waking visions.  Kinda like doing any entheogen
in an isolation tank is gonna amplify the level of experience.

But… ¬†A lotta people don’t necessarily like, want, or need that. ¬†¬†Maybe
they just wanna smell a flower, get a hug, and listen to Pink Floyd.
Different things work in different ways for different people differently.

That’s my experience anywaze,

Patrick

From: “Sandra k” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to: Marko
Date: February 25, 2003 at 7:33:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko,

Two things:

1: I can speak for myself, thanks. If you have any questions about my responses. Just ask me.
Marc may be the funder of this project but he doesn’t own me. I am truly, geniunely interested
in making this project successful and that benefits all of us, if it works. Yes, my email may
have seemed like it was intended to smooth things over because it was. It comes from my
training in facilitation and I’m also generally a pretty diplomatic person. Everything I wrote in
that email was my own personal opinion and I’d like to think that we’re all entitled to that. I don’t
think we have to stoop to soap opera style blame games. This list seems to me to be a great
place to discuss issues in a positive, solution-oriented manner as opposed to the more
common deficit perspective (which if you ask me seems to be the unfortunately dominant
paradigm for communication these days). I do think we’ll learn more from eachother that way
and there are, I’m sure, some really intelligent people here whose brains I’d love to pick too.
Focus on the negative and what do you expect to get in return for your efforts? I can only forsee
en(closed ) (:mind? ) circles leading nowhere. Focusing on generating honest, clear open
dialogue geared towards finding positive solutions and facilitating communication has always
proven way more beneficial for me, as well as way more engaging (as opposed to draining) &
fun…

2- At least one MAJOR capitalist-philanthropist: George Soros … If we stop approaching these
people as authority figures which have to be fought because of our fear of or undealt with
issues of insecurity, then I think perhaps they can be our greatest allies. I’m not talking about
ass kissing here but rather; engaging one another as equals and creating interesting,
valuable projects. I probably, totally, sound like a goody two shoes here but it’s definately
worked for me so far.

Ok, one more thing, If Marc was to use this project for his next campaign platform, so what?
it’s just another way to get the information out there. There are other ways too, I’ll admit but I
fail to see what’s wrong with that? Our clients are still receiving quality care from people who
care and that’s really what’s at the core of this whole discussion list. Is it not?

Get SPLF’d!
(Super Positive Living Forever) – a common saying amongst my friends…

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 20:27:25 +0100
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] to: Marc Emery

Hi Marc,

I thought that you took a short holidays (maybe because there are some
unpleasant questions waiting in E-mail? and people tend to forget in a few
days?) and let Sandra k. smooth everything a bit… or I could be mistaken
and Sandra k. did that on her own initiative, being a loyal employee… I
don’t really know, just guessing, but knowing political behaviour, that’s
exactly it!!

Not only that (knowing political behaviour), guess what? I received several
E-mails from people that you were close with, and the picture of you is
getting worse and worse… I won’t go into details, could unintentionally
give someone away…

Now I’m SURE that you don’t do treatments for free. OK, nobody has to pay
anything, you pay all bills (with a little help of Sacrament of Transition,
huh?), but you are a capitalist, and capitalists don’t throw money through
the window, do they? No, they don’t ;-))

So, my guess is that you’ll use ITH as political capital at next elections.
My second guess is that you’ll use ITH to show the judge (if something
unplanned happens, and you end in front of him) that you’re a good person,
you care for those nobody else does. Volounteer social service type of
person, right?
My third guess is – no, this one isn’t for a public list like this =)

Marc Emery, you’re doing something really good at ITH, no matter why you do
it! I openly admit that =)

But on the other hand, I really hope that you don’t interfere with what is
done there. I hope that you let your staff doing everything. My opinion is
that you’re too <a lot of negative descriptions> to do this. And if
something really bad happens in your ITH, then people won’t point only at
you, but whole IBO movement will get a BIG black spot!

Do you remember how this conversation started? You advised Soren: “You
should use the Indra extract”

I suggest that Sandra k. or someone else from your staff advise people
instead of you (without advertising;-)). You can probably lend her your
E-mail addresse, and allow her to sign with your name if you want to appear
as it’s you…

It seems that you won’t answer my previous E-mail… so here’s the
important question again; can you PLEASE answer?:

Do you know what is inside (what is it composed of) IBO that ITH uses?

If you don’t answer this, then I’ll have to assume that you don’t have the
slightest idea. And giving people something as powerful as IBO without
having the slightest idea of what is given to them is dangerous!

Marko


_______________________________________________
Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net

Powered by Outblaze

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Further to Patrick’s comments
Date: February 25, 2003 at 5:55:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No, Marc, this is wrong ;-))

It’s not the point in this – that you use E-mail of one of your staff (and sign it with your name). Next time try be more careful, at least don’t sign your name ;-))

Or have you changed your name (and E-mail) to A J Dietterle?

Thank you for a good laugh before bedtime!!!

Oh, btw, many people like to have music while on IBO. It takes them away, leads the way, opens doors. You should try yourself ;-))

Ha ha ha HAHAHA ha ha

=)

Marko

At 23:06 25.2.2003, you wrote:
Patrick,

Your LSD experience has nothing to do with ibogaine. They aren’t similar. I
fail to see what value your remarks have to the person who asked the
question. He wants information he can use, I have provided it. He will
benefit by doing as I have suggested. If he feels like adding a soundtrack,
he can request it to his sitter. (He certainly won’t be able to get up and
change CD’s!). Not a single patient so far responded to music or scents,
they wanted them stopped, all of them. I’m telling you my experience with
these patients, and it is remarkably similar each time -regarding what I
have said about external environmental factors. All the individuals were
different sexes, different physiology, weights, different drug dependencies,
yet the all responded remarkably similarily to noise, music, scents, light,
walking to the toilet, etc.

You can’t talk to someone during an ibo experience, it interrupts the movie
going on that they are struggling to keep up with. When we even take their
pulse, we are interrupting, but its necessary. When I ask ‘How are you?” or
“What are you thinking?” I never get any answers while they are in the
experience, merely a “OH? (surprise), er, fine, can’t say”.

There is a section in the Ibogaine Dossier (ibogaine.desk.nl) where a
psychiatrist is having this coherent conversation with someone under
ibogaine. That has never happened here. Not even a sentence to describe what
they are seeing. It all comes out much later, from 48 hours to 7 days after
the main dosing, they call us frequently, or in the case of far-away
visitors like the patient we are treating right now, (dosing occurs in 6
hours), who is with us for eight days, we will hear about it likely after
the second dose (which will be administered 5 days after the main dose),
because he has been using 300 mg. of methadone, and that is a huge detox for
5,000 mg. of Indra extract, so he will likely not visualize the first dose,
as in our experience the ibo goes to the detox first, and whatever remains,
goes to visualization. This is the highest dosage of methadone we have dealt
with thus far. Typically, all our patients have extensive visualizations
during the first dose, if it is high enough. But this detox will be
challenging. Our regimen is 5,000 mg. INDRA extract 36 hours after last
methadone consumption. If he still has cravings and minor to moderate
withdrawl symptoms, we have a regimen of exercise, herbal teas, herbal
baths, herbals massages to reduce the discomfort I expect he will feel. A
full five days after the first dose, we expect to give him a second dose of
4,000 mg. Indra extract.

I will report on the procedure as it occurs throughout the next week.

P.S. Patrick, have you noticed your post appears to be ‘all about you’ and
how each bit of music is affecting you, personally. There seems to be a lot
of anger in there also,

>>>are far more distracted by the stupid
> fucking BWAHH WAHHHHH WAHHHH sound that starts up inside your head;

and

>>> Meaning shit like new age music, all the
> <bWinG> <BwInG> <bw0ng> <BwOnG> crap, fills me with the urge to kill

and

>>>When I first dosed there was the scent
> of sage all over the place.  I HATE sage.

and

>>>that particular scent takes
> ME, is driving through border towns between Juarez, Sunland Park, and El
> Paso, where the entire countryside is on fire, and the smell of this shit
> burning is everywhere.

and

>>>It says flashing lights in the rearview mirror and
> a lot of, “turn around, put your hands on the hood, spread your legs, and
> don’t reach for anything asshole.” ¬†It’s not a super-happy headspace kinda
> trip. ¬†I HATE sage. ¬†Possibly I’ve mentioned this already.

When you finally conclude, you add this:

>>> Like anything else, this
> can produce really negative, or highly positive outcomes and
> chain-reactions.

For me, your comments are not very applicable for a novice looking possibly
to experience ibogaine. I think giving him advice on a comfortable, neutral
setting is really what he needs and is what he has asked for.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 10:40 AM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

> On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 09:59:02AM -0800], [MARC] wrote:
>
> | The room you will be dosed in should be dark! You’ll want sunlight blocked.
> | During the experience, you will want silence, all sounds are magnified. No
> | noise or even talking nearby. Dogs barking Construction sounds would be very
> | bad. During the experience you will not want any scents of perfume, candles,
> | food cooking, fireplaces, etc.
> |
> | Banish from your mind any preconceived ideas of what might happen. Take
> | Gravol (or similar anti-nauseant) half hour before your main dose. I
> | recommend 100mg.
>
> Without touching the rest of this, just to comment on this one particular
> piece of whatcha said.  I think everything I quoted up top, is highly
> dependent upon the individual in question.  Making a solid assertion that
> this is the single best way to deal with things, is probably not workable.
> Everybody is different.
>
> Many people — myself included — are far more distracted by the stupid
> fucking BWAHH WAHHHHH WAHHHH sound that starts up inside your head; than
> they are by anything in the external environment.  Some people enjoy
> silence — “enjoy” perhaps being the wrong choice of words, more like they
> do better that way — others like music.
>
> Personally I have found that everything I really dislike when unaltered,
> only intensifies while under.  Meaning shit like new age music, all the
> <bWinG> <BwInG> <bw0ng> <BwOnG> crap, fills me with the urge to kill
> things, and lands me in a really negative headspace.  The synchroenergizer
> tapes do nothing special. ¬†Listening to Peter Gabriel’s “Passions” CD,
> which was my early-phase strung-out, get high and fuck all night
> soundtrack, before totally losing interest in sex — did not fill me with
> great remorse, it just reminded me how much fun it was, and took me to a
> really nice space.
>
> My central reintegration soundtrack for 10mg of LSD was GNR, Black
> Sabbath, Jane’s Addiction and Soundgarden; with the main title track being
> White Zombie’s homage to Blade Runner (yet more Philip K. Dick, go
> figure), More Human than Human, “I am a nexus one, I want more life
> fucker, I ain’t done.” ¬†Oh absolutely! ¬†That’s it exactly!
>
> Of course what I like, is probably more than enough to drive someone with
> different tastes to go smoke crack.
>
> Same goes for the scent comment.  When I first dosed there was the scent
> of sage all over the place.  I HATE sage.  Why would anybody possibly
> purchase incense that smells like it?  Where that particular scent takes
> ME, is driving through border towns between Juarez, Sunland Park, and El
> Paso, where the entire countryside is on fire, and the smell of this shit
> burning is everywhere.  It says flashing lights in the rearview mirror and
> a lot of, “turn around, put your hands on the hood, spread your legs, and
> don’t reach for anything asshole.” ¬†It’s not a super-happy headspace kinda
> trip. ¬†I HATE sage. ¬†Possibly I’ve mentioned this already.
>
> On the flipside, much later a chick who smelled like she was completely
> made out of opium — the perfume, not the groovy little plant — was in my
> environment; I could see the scent molecules, I was surrounded by them,
> absorbed in them; and it was highly cool. ¬†Opium — the perfume to
> reiterate — still pulls me into a really positive headspace, many years
> later.
>
> All of this is psychedelic therapy 101, and has been written out in
> various places on many occasions.  It amounts to forming anchors to
> particular moments of experience, while altered.  Like anything else, this
> can produce really negative, or highly positive outcomes and
> chain-reactions.
>
> Just saying,
>
> Patrick
>
>
>

From: A J Dietterle <ajdietterle@dccnet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] My response to Marko
Date: February 25, 2003 at 5:46:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko:

I have no idea whats going on in your head. The four of us work full time at
the Iboga Therapy House because we learn lots, we like all our patients (we
still stay in contact with all of them), we enjoy the adventure of watching
people heal, we love seeing their lives improve. We actually have fun doing
it!

I have no idea what is in the INDRA extract, but I am fully confident it
works, and it works in the dose range my reading states it should. Howard
Lotsof has been very supportive, and candidly, I value Howard’s friendship
and supportiveness above all other considerations.

I trust the INDRA extract. Over 20 doses and it has worked – MAGNIFICENTLY!
I personally dose all the patients so my staff does not suffer the legal
liabilities, if any should occur. I am present for any major decision
regardinmg the patient.

I trust the INDRA extract because it works, the results match protocols set
out by Lotsof and others in the published work.

I trust the Ibogaine Hydrochloride I got from you. It seems to do what I
want it to do, and so I have confidence in that, though I have never had it
analyzed in a lab. And you seem alot stranger and weirder than the person I
get the Indra extract from. You are, like some others, really about
yourself, while impugning me.

The extract from Ethnogarden was originally sold to me as 55% – 60% ibogaine
extract, after lab results came back, it was a 24% extract, similar to INDRA
extract. This caused a crisis of confidence in that product, although we
have used it in proportions similar to Indra extract with good results.

All three products get our confidence because we are seeing desirable
results and no health anomalies.

I do not charge anything to our patients. Any donations are directed toward
charities not my own ( in other words, people offer to give money, we direct
them to Pivot Legal Services, a legal service for the poor and marginalized
in dealing with police brutality). All food, lodging, care, ibogaine, are
completely paid for by me. I am a capitalist, like George Soros, Andrew
Carnegie, two great men who have contributed much of their wealth to the
advancement of reason and the public good. I earn alot of money then I spend
it on hundreds of charitable and activist/idealist causes each year. I spend
$500,000 each year on charitable and activist/idealist projects, none of
which return revenue to me.

I brought up ibogaine prominently in the last Vancouver election for Mayor.
I expect that the man who did get elected (Larry Campbell), who is a very
good man, will give the opening remarks at the Vancouver Ibogaine Conference
this August. He and I shared many ideas on drug addiction, he is a good
person who was Chief Coroner and he understands much about drug addiction. I
ran for Mayor not to get elected but to influence him (which I did) and the
public. You can go to marc4mayor.com  (I believe its still up) and see that
ibogaine was featured prominently in my campaign. I run in every election
(ten times now), spend a pile of my money, to influence drug issues. Maybe
you have heard how the environment in Vancouver and area has been after nine
years of my unrelenting work here. For example, we run this Therapyy House
transparently and with a fully informed public, and we have no yet received
one line of criticism from any source (except here, of course, from you and
others who claim to have the inside track on my motives!). In fact, various
inquiries from media, The New Scientist, medical doctors, all find us
professional and free of conflicts. We are here to help, period. And we do
that.

I have my way of doing things, but I have 3 magazines, an internet TV
station, the worlds largest marijuana seed business, am president of the BC
Marijuana Party, so I work in co-operation with many, many people. My
energy, ideas, enthusiasm attracts many willing and excited workers involved
in dozens of incredible projects which actually materialize! My co-workers
are paid well and receive the utmost consideration. I live not much
different from them. After being arrested 10 times, jailed 8 times and
raided 5 times in the last 9 years, I am a capitalist who has learned to
live without owning anything (as the police have seized my assets on four
occasions), so I am on the same planet as every one else. No property,
assets, cars, money in pocket for me. I go to jail for my beliefs, and I
have gladly given up my wealth to see ideas come to fruition. I have given
money to Dana Beals (lots) for Cures-Not-Wars, I have donated $4,000 to Sara
Glatt in her time of need, I just sent Howard $1,000 to help him out in the
conference in Washington.

Sandra K. wrote her comments because she is proud of her work and loves to
work with me. I have over 40 co-workers, and you know what, I’ve only let go
2 people in 6 years, and no one has ever quit working for me in 6 years! So
there simply aren’t many (if any) ¬†disgruntled employees or ex-girlfriends
around. Maybe Marko, ¬†you’re simply listening to those voices in your own
head!

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 11:27 AM, Ustanova Iboga at Iboga@guest.arnes.si wrote:

Hi Marc,

I thought that you took a short holidays (maybe because there are some
unpleasant questions waiting in E-mail? and people tend to forget in a few
days?) and let Sandra k. smooth everything a bit… or I could be mistaken
and Sandra k. did that on her own initiative, being a loyal employee… I
don’t really know, just guessing, but knowing political behaviour, that’s
exactly it!!

Not only that (knowing political behaviour), guess what? I received several
E-mails from people that you were close with, and the picture of you is
getting worse and worse… I won’t go into details, could unintentionally
give someone away…

Now I’m SURE that you don’t do treatments for free. OK, nobody has to pay
anything, you pay all bills (with a little help of Sacrament of Transition,
huh?), but you are a capitalist, and capitalists don’t throw money through
the window, do they? No, they don’t ;-))

So, my guess is that you’ll use ITH as political capital at next elections.
My second guess is that you’ll use ITH to show the judge (if something
unplanned happens, and you end in front of him) that you’re a good person,
you care for those nobody else does. Volounteer social service type of
person, right?
My third guess is – no, this one isn’t for a public list like this =)

Marc Emery, you’re doing something really good at ITH, no matter why you do
it! I openly admit that =)

But on the other hand, I really hope that you don’t interfere with what is
done there. I hope that you let your staff doing everything. My opinion is
that you’re too <a lot of negative descriptions> to do this. And if
something really bad happens in your ITH, then people won’t point only at
you, but whole IBO movement will get a BIG black spot!

Do you remember how this conversation started? You advised Soren: “You
should use the Indra extract”

I suggest that Sandra k. or someone else from your staff advise people
instead of you (without advertising;-)). You can probably lend her your
E-mail addresse, and allow her to sign with your name if you want to appear
as it’s you…

It seems that you won’t answer my previous E-mail… so here’s the
important question again; can you PLEASE answer?:

Do you know what is inside (what is it composed of) IBO that ITH uses?

If you don’t answer this, then I’ll have to assume that you don’t have the
slightest idea. And giving people something as powerful as IBO without
having the slightest idea of what is given to them is dangerous!

Marko

From: Aktionman22@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Further to Patrick’s comments
Date: February 25, 2003 at 5:28:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

..

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Further to Patrick’s comments
Date: February 25, 2003 at 5:26:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

There is a section in the Ibogaine Dossier (ibogaine.desk.nl) where a
psychiatrist is having this coherent conversation with someone under
ibogaine. That has never happened here.

Different dosage there, I believe on the order of 5 mg/kg.

Bill Ross

From: A J Dietterle <ajdietterle@dccnet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Further to Patrick’s comments
Date: February 25, 2003 at 5:06:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick,

Your LSD experience has nothing to do with ibogaine. They aren’t similar. I
fail to see what value your remarks have to the person who asked the
question. He wants information he can use, I have provided it. He will
benefit by doing as I have suggested. If he feels like adding a soundtrack,
he can request it to his sitter. (He certainly won’t be able to get up and
change CD’s!). Not a single patient so far responded to music or scents,
they wanted them stopped, all of them. I’m telling you my experience with
these patients, and it is remarkably similar each time -regarding what I
have said about external environmental factors. All the individuals were
different sexes, different physiology, weights, different drug dependencies,
yet the all responded remarkably similarily to noise, music, scents, light,
walking to the toilet, etc.

You can’t talk to someone during an ibo experience, it interrupts the movie
going on that they are struggling to keep up with. When we even take their
pulse, we are interrupting, but its necessary. When I ask ‘How are you?” or
“What are you thinking?” I never get any answers while they are in the
experience, merely a “OH? (surprise), er, fine, can’t say”.

There is a section in the Ibogaine Dossier (ibogaine.desk.nl) where a
psychiatrist is having this coherent conversation with someone under
ibogaine. That has never happened here. Not even a sentence to describe what
they are seeing. It all comes out much later, from 48 hours to 7 days after
the main dosing, they call us frequently, or in the case of far-away
visitors like the patient we are treating right now, (dosing occurs in 6
hours), who is with us for eight days, we will hear about it likely after
the second dose (which will be administered 5 days after the main dose),
because he has been using 300 mg. of methadone, and that is a huge detox for
5,000 mg. of Indra extract, so he will likely not visualize the first dose,
as in our experience the ibo goes to the detox first, and whatever remains,
goes to visualization. This is the highest dosage of methadone we have dealt
with thus far. Typically, all our patients have extensive visualizations
during the first dose, if it is high enough. But this detox will be
challenging. Our regimen is 5,000 mg. INDRA extract 36 hours after last
methadone consumption. If he still has cravings and minor to moderate
withdrawl symptoms, we have a regimen of exercise, herbal teas, herbal
baths, herbals massages to reduce the discomfort I expect he will feel. A
full five days after the first dose, we expect to give him a second dose of
4,000 mg. Indra extract.

I will report on the procedure as it occurs throughout the next week.

P.S. Patrick, have you noticed your post appears to be ‘all about you’ and
how each bit of music is affecting you, personally. There seems to be a lot
of anger in there also,

are far more distracted by the stupid
fucking BWAHH WAHHHHH WAHHHH sound that starts up inside your head;

and

Meaning shit like new age music, all the
<bWinG> <BwInG> <bw0ng> <BwOnG> crap, fills me with the urge to kill

and

When I first dosed there was the scent
of sage all over the place.  I HATE sage.

and

that particular scent takes
ME, is driving through border towns between Juarez, Sunland Park, and El
Paso, where the entire countryside is on fire, and the smell of this shit
burning is everywhere.

and

It says flashing lights in the rearview mirror and
a lot of, “turn around, put your hands on the hood, spread your legs, and
don’t reach for anything asshole.” ¬†It’s not a super-happy headspace kinda
trip. ¬†I HATE sage. ¬†Possibly I’ve mentioned this already.

When you finally conclude, you add this:

Like anything else, this
can produce really negative, or highly positive outcomes and
chain-reactions.

For me, your comments are not very applicable for a novice looking possibly
to experience ibogaine. I think giving him advice on a comfortable, neutral
setting is really what he needs and is what he has asked for.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

on 2/25/03 10:40 AM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:

On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 09:59:02AM -0800], [MARC] wrote:

| The room you will be dosed in should be dark! You’ll want sunlight blocked.
| During the experience, you will want silence, all sounds are magnified. No
| noise or even talking nearby. Dogs barking Construction sounds would be very
| bad. During the experience you will not want any scents of perfume, candles,
| food cooking, fireplaces, etc.
|
| Banish from your mind any preconceived ideas of what might happen. Take
| Gravol (or similar anti-nauseant) half hour before your main dose. I
| recommend 100mg.

Without touching the rest of this, just to comment on this one particular
piece of whatcha said.  I think everything I quoted up top, is highly
dependent upon the individual in question.  Making a solid assertion that
this is the single best way to deal with things, is probably not workable.
Everybody is different.

Many people — myself included — are far more distracted by the stupid
fucking BWAHH WAHHHHH WAHHHH sound that starts up inside your head; than
they are by anything in the external environment.  Some people enjoy
silence — “enjoy” perhaps being the wrong choice of words, more like they
do better that way — others like music.

Personally I have found that everything I really dislike when unaltered,
only intensifies while under.  Meaning shit like new age music, all the
<bWinG> <BwInG> <bw0ng> <BwOnG> crap, fills me with the urge to kill
things, and lands me in a really negative headspace.  The synchroenergizer
tapes do nothing special. ¬†Listening to Peter Gabriel’s “Passions” CD,
which was my early-phase strung-out, get high and fuck all night
soundtrack, before totally losing interest in sex — did not fill me with
great remorse, it just reminded me how much fun it was, and took me to a
really nice space.

My central reintegration soundtrack for 10mg of LSD was GNR, Black
Sabbath, Jane’s Addiction and Soundgarden; with the main title track being
White Zombie’s homage to Blade Runner (yet more Philip K. Dick, go
figure), More Human than Human, “I am a nexus one, I want more life
fucker, I ain’t done.” ¬†Oh absolutely! ¬†That’s it exactly!

Of course what I like, is probably more than enough to drive someone with
different tastes to go smoke crack.

Same goes for the scent comment.  When I first dosed there was the scent
of sage all over the place.  I HATE sage.  Why would anybody possibly
purchase incense that smells like it?  Where that particular scent takes
ME, is driving through border towns between Juarez, Sunland Park, and El
Paso, where the entire countryside is on fire, and the smell of this shit
burning is everywhere.  It says flashing lights in the rearview mirror and
a lot of, “turn around, put your hands on the hood, spread your legs, and
don’t reach for anything asshole.” ¬†It’s not a super-happy headspace kinda
trip. ¬†I HATE sage. ¬†Possibly I’ve mentioned this already.

On the flipside, much later a chick who smelled like she was completely
made out of opium — the perfume, not the groovy little plant — was in my
environment; I could see the scent molecules, I was surrounded by them,
absorbed in them; and it was highly cool. ¬†Opium — the perfume to
reiterate — still pulls me into a really positive headspace, many years
later.

All of this is psychedelic therapy 101, and has been written out in
various places on many occasions.  It amounts to forming anchors to
particular moments of experience, while altered.  Like anything else, this
can produce really negative, or highly positive outcomes and
chain-reactions.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: [ibogaine] to: Marc Emery
Date: February 25, 2003 at 2:27:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Marc,

I thought that you took a short holidays (maybe because there are some unpleasant questions waiting in E-mail? and people tend to forget in a few days?) and let Sandra k. smooth everything a bit… or I could be mistaken and Sandra k. did that on her own initiative, being a loyal employee… I don’t really know, just guessing, but knowing political behaviour, that’s exactly it!!

Not only that (knowing political behaviour), guess what? I received several E-mails from people that you were close with, and the picture of you is getting worse and worse… I won’t go into details, could unintentionally give someone away…

Now I’m SURE that you don’t do treatments for free. OK, nobody has to pay anything, you pay all bills (with a little help of Sacrament of Transition, huh?), but you are a capitalist, and capitalists don’t throw money through the window, do they? No, they don’t ;-))

So, my guess is that you’ll use ITH as political capital at next elections.
My second guess is that you’ll use ITH to show the judge (if something unplanned happens, and you end in front of him) that you’re a good person, you care for those nobody else does. Volounteer social service type of person, right?
My third guess is – no, this one isn’t for a public list like this =)

Marc Emery, you’re doing something really good at ITH, no matter why you do it! I openly admit that =)

But on the other hand, I really hope that you don’t interfere with what is done there. I hope that you let your staff doing everything. My opinion is that you’re too <a lot of negative descriptions> to do this. And if something really bad happens in your ITH, then people won’t point only at you, but whole IBO movement will get a BIG black spot!

Do you remember how this conversation started? You advised Soren: “You should use the Indra extract”

I suggest that Sandra k. or someone else from your staff advise people instead of you (without advertising;-)). You can probably lend her your E-mail addresse, and allow her to sign with your name if you want to appear as it’s you…

It seems that you won’t answer my previous E-mail… so here’s the important question again; can you PLEASE answer?:

Do you know what is inside (what is it composed of) IBO that ITH uses?

If you don’t answer this, then I’ll have to assume that you don’t have the slightest idea. And giving people something as powerful as IBO without having the slightest idea of what is given to them is dangerous!

Marko

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 25, 2003 at 1:40:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 09:59:02AM -0800], [MARC] wrote:

| The room you will be dosed in should be dark! You’ll want sunlight blocked.
| During the experience, you will want silence, all sounds are magnified. No
| noise or even talking nearby. Dogs barking Construction sounds would be very
| bad. During the experience you will not want any scents of perfume, candles,
| food cooking, fireplaces, etc.
|
| Banish from your mind any preconceived ideas of what might happen. Take
| Gravol (or similar anti-nauseant) half hour before your main dose. I
| recommend 100mg.

Without touching the rest of this, just to comment on this one particular
piece of whatcha said.  I think everything I quoted up top, is highly
dependent upon the individual in question.  Making a solid assertion that
this is the single best way to deal with things, is probably not workable.
Everybody is different.

Many people — myself included — are far more distracted by the stupid
fucking BWAHH WAHHHHH WAHHHH sound that starts up inside your head; than
they are by anything in the external environment.  Some people enjoy
silence — “enjoy” perhaps being the wrong choice of words, more like they
do better that way — others like music.

Personally I have found that everything I really dislike when unaltered,
only intensifies while under.  Meaning shit like new age music, all the
<bWinG> <BwInG> <bw0ng> <BwOnG> crap, fills me with the urge to kill
things, and lands me in a really negative headspace.  The synchroenergizer
tapes do nothing special. ¬†Listening to Peter Gabriel’s “Passions” CD,
which was my early-phase strung-out, get high and fuck all night
soundtrack, before totally losing interest in sex — did not fill me with
great remorse, it just reminded me how much fun it was, and took me to a
really nice space.

My central reintegration soundtrack for 10mg of LSD was GNR, Black
Sabbath, Jane’s Addiction and Soundgarden; with the main title track being
White Zombie’s homage to Blade Runner (yet more Philip K. Dick, go
figure), More Human than Human, “I am a nexus one, I want more life
fucker, I ain’t done.” ¬†Oh absolutely! ¬†That’s it exactly!

Of course what I like, is probably more than enough to drive someone with
different tastes to go smoke crack.

Same goes for the scent comment.  When I first dosed there was the scent
of sage all over the place.  I HATE sage.  Why would anybody possibly
purchase incense that smells like it?  Where that particular scent takes
ME, is driving through border towns between Juarez, Sunland Park, and El
Paso, where the entire countryside is on fire, and the smell of this shit
burning is everywhere.  It says flashing lights in the rearview mirror and
a lot of, “turn around, put your hands on the hood, spread your legs, and
don’t reach for anything asshole.” ¬†It’s not a super-happy headspace kinda
trip. ¬†I HATE sage. ¬†Possibly I’ve mentioned this already.

On the flipside, much later a chick who smelled like she was completely
made out of opium — the perfume, not the groovy little plant — was in my
environment; I could see the scent molecules, I was surrounded by them,
absorbed in them; and it was highly cool. ¬†Opium — the perfume to
reiterate — still pulls me into a really positive headspace, many years
later.

All of this is psychedelic therapy 101, and has been written out in
various places on many occasions.  It amounts to forming anchors to
particular moments of experience, while altered.  Like anything else, this
can produce really negative, or highly positive outcomes and
chain-reactions.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 25, 2003 at 12:59:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Someone to stay with you a week is a good idea. Day one to two for safety,
day 3 to 7 so you can talk about the experience and begin to make changes in
your daily routine and your long term interests.

In anticipation of the experience, fasting 24 hours prior to dosing is good
(12 hours minimum is essential), and drinking only water, or Gatorade
(without caffeine), or herbal teas. No coffee, caffeine, alcohol. No drugs
except essential ones to maintain the health. Make sure you tell your sitter
EVERYTHING.

Have you had a blood test? This is to make sure your liver is functioning
well. You should get an EKG (USA) or ECG (Canada) to determine the health of
your heart.

The room you will be dosed in should be dark! You’ll want sunlight blocked.
During the experience, you will want silence, all sounds are magnified. No
noise or even talking nearby. Dogs barking Construction sounds would be very
bad. During the experience you will not want any scents of perfume, candles,
food cooking, fireplaces, etc.

Banish from your mind any preconceived ideas of what might happen. Take
Gravol (or similar anti-nauseant) half hour before your main dose. I
recommend 100mg.

Have a water bottle nearby and you should drink from it if you pee or vomit.
If you vomit, its OK after three hours after consuming the iboga, it should
be liquid, light yellow. If you are thin, it likely won’t be something that
is upsetting. If you are larger, its going to be possibly a little
upsetting.

You didn’t say when your most recent dose of heroin was, or will be. Your
odds of a successful detox rest of keeping your current fix at a low range
if you can do it. DO NOT KEEP HEROIN, METHADONE, CRACK COCAINE anywhere in
your home during the experience. Your sitter should be empowered to search
your room and any belongings you own. She should never let you out of her
site. When you pee, do it sitting down so your sitter can observe
discreetly. She should thoroughly drug proof the bed area you are lying in
and remove all drugs out of your bathroom before the experience. From the
sitter/therapist/facillitator point of view, you are untrustworthy ¬†You’ll
appreciate her concern if you are serious.

I do not know Suzana, but you can ask me more questions about our protocols.
Good luck to you and keep us informed of your progress.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House
—– Original Message —–
From: “thebozman” <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Hi Mark

My name is Richard and I live in Nottingham, Engalnd and have been using
street heroin  on and off for the past 8 years РOn the 16 March Suzana
Souza from Brazil is coming over to treat me with ibogaine at my home and
she will stay with me for one week – my question is if you know of Suzana
and can you offer me any advice – thank you !

warm regards
Richard

if you’re seeing this – hello Randy – hope you’re well
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 6:47 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Randy, what you are saying is simply not true. Ibogaine extract is very
safe, if you get a blood test and confirm your liver (which metabolizes
the
ibogaine) is healthy.

Ibogaine extract IS inherently safe, it is extenuating circumstances
that
radically increase risk. In the 35 year history of documented iboga
extract
use, I am not convinced iboga has ever been indicated as potentially
fatal.
Now if someone injects heroin into their arm 4 hours later, thats
dangerous,
but that does not implicate the iboga as dangerous.

REPEAT! You are not taking your life into your hands in any dangerous or
hazardous way if you follow good health protocols. Heart rates, in my
experience, do not change (we take a pulse every 30 minutes, it never
varies). If the patient does not eat for 12 hours prior, there is little
chance of choking on vomit. If the patient’s sitter prevents any intake
of
illicit drugs, there is no attenuting circumstances of overdose. If the
patient is hydrated and continues to hydrate, the liver will rapidly
detoxify the metabolizing iboga extract.

I see no evidence in any scientific literature to account for any
fatality
as a result of careful use of iboga, or any paralysis, toxic shock,
anaflectic shock, etc.

Using street heroin, methadone, cocaine, meth, etc. is WAY, WAY more
dangerous than careful use of iboga extract, which is not dangerous at
all.
I have no information or any empirical evidence (at this point, I have
treated more people in North America excepting possibly Deborah Mash)
indicating that any complications can arise. You may offer information
that
contradicts that, but I have never seen it in print or in person.

All patients I have treated are significantly improved in every relevent
area in their life. That’s what I know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Marc,

I am glad to see you share your advice and experience.  However, I
feel
that
it is irresponsible to assure someone that they “will be OK”. ¬†We all
know
that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence ibo related fatalities.
Marko’s
posting on the other list is honest.  If you do ibo on your own you
are
taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh that risk carefully.  At
the
same time, if you are a street drug user you are taking your life into
your
own hands.  Using street dope is probably equally as dangerous as
doing
ibo
without experience.  But if you re not doing street dope and you are
in
a
treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best to proceed to ibo with
patience and caution and to eliminate as many risks as possible.
Complications can happen, be willing and prepared to call for
emergency
help
if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under professional care.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything
for
the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water and
herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee,
caffeine-oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any
burning
item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during the
iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours
prior
to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances
not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly
up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining
dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about
8 –
10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take
those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea
more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate (your
sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting), the
vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially
the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues
are
soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high
acidity
of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your
visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours,
thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise
you
will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance, and
like
sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise
you
will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if you
have
to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not really
know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while
it
is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72 hours,
long
after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling
of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem
like
a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga
world
and
unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer
addicted,
no
longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions, your
main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been on
60
mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont know
how
much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and drugs
used
in
the
last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will tell
you
what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you
have
someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Hi Dana

Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,that¬īs not
the
problem.

In the start it was my intention,to do just what you
suggest,buy
some
Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that
the
“sitter”
had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do
it!!)

I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b
in
the
late
seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never
sick.(flu,cold
and
so),so I think my immune system is good.
Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with
maybe
500mg
Ibo
HCL?
This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and
what
I
could
expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?

Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate
it.:o)
Kind regards
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on
60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain
cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I
can¬īt
get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking
Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for
me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in
Mexico
and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful
forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and
a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start
to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though,
not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 25, 2003 at 12:27:28 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hmmm…a punch on the right, and a feint on the left, and all kinds of
skirmishes across the playing field.
Fear and peace
…and oddly enough, snow leopards in Kyryzstan.

Happy trails… to you…until… we meet…again.

“DO NOT ADJUST YOUR MIND: IT IS REALITY THAT IS MALFUNCTIONING.”
-R.A.W.

“So should I stay or should I go now?”

Sorry…feeling a little woozy here over the rapid pace of things.
Having trouble keeping up with the game.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

windforme@graffiti.net 02/19/03 01:50AM >>>
this will be the last of my posts on this topic…

RECKLESS ADMINISTRATION MAY REAP DISASTROUS CONSEQUENCES by US Senator

Robert Byrd

Senate Floor Speech – Wednesday, February 12, 2003

To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human
experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the
brink of
battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the
horrors of
war.

Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent — ominously,
dreadfully
silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out
for the
nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.

We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by
our own
uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only
on the
editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive
discussion of
the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no
simple
attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it
materializes,
represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a
turning
point in the recent history of the world.

This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a
revolutionary
doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time.
The
doctrine of preemption — the idea that the United States or any
other
nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently
threatening
but may be threatening in the future — is a radical new twist on
the
traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention
of
international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a
time of
world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder
if
they will soon be on our — or some other nation’s — hit list.
High level
Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off
of the
table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be
more
destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty,
particularly in a
world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security
interests
of many nations so closely together? There are huge cracks emerging
in our
time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to

damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust,

misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders
is
fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which
existed
after September 11.

Here at home, people are warned of imminent terrorist attacks with
little
guidance as to when or where such attacks might occur. Family
members are
being called to active military duty, with no idea of the duration
of
their stay or what horrors they may face. Communities are being
left with
less than adequate police and fire protection. Other essential
services
are also short-staffed. The mood of the nation is grim. The economy
is
stumbling. Fuel prices are rising and may soon spike higher.  This

Administration, now in power for a little over two years, must be
judged
on its record. I believe that that record is dismal.  In that scant
two
years, this Administration has squandered a large projected surplus
of
some $5.6 trillion over the next decade and taken us to projected
deficits
as far as the eye can see. This Administration’s domestic policy
has put
many of our states in dire financial condition, under funding
scores of
essential programs for our people. This Administration has fostered

policies which have slowed economic growth. This Administration has

ignored urgent matters such as the crisis in health care for our
elderly.
This Administration has been slow to provide adequate funding for
homeland
security. This Administration has been reluctant to better protect
our
long and porous borders. In foreign policy, this Administration has
failed
to find Osama bin Laden. In fact, just yesterday we heard from him
again
marshaling his forces and urging them to kill. This Administration
has
split traditional alliances, possibly crippling, for all time,
International order-keeping entities like the United Nations and
NATO.
This Administration has called into question the traditional
worldwide
perception of the United States as well-intentioned, peacekeeper.
This
Administration has turned the patient art of diplomacy into
threats,
labeling, and name calling of the sort that reflects quite poorly
on the
intelligence and sensitivity of our leaders, and which will have
consequences for years to come.

Calling heads of state pygmies, labeling whole countries as evil,
denigrating powerful European allies as irrelevant — these types
of crude
insensitivities can do our great nation no good. We may have
massive
military might, but we cannot fight a global war on terrorism
alone. We
need the cooperation and friendship of our time-honored allies as
well as
the newer found friends whom we can attract with our wealth. Our
awesome
military machine will do us little good if we suffer another
devastating
attack on our homeland which severely damages our economy. Our
military
manpower is already stretched thin and we will need the

augmenting support of those nations who can supply troop strength,
not ust
sign letters cheering us on.

The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is

evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold
in that
region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace
in
Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in
that
remote and devastated land.

Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This
Administration
has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is
eager to
embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in

Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned
that
after winning the war one must always secure the peace?  And yet
we hear
little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of
plans,
speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq’s oil fields,
becoming an
occupying power which controls the price and supply of that

nation’s oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to
hand the
reigns of power after Saddam Hussein?

Will our war inflame the Muslim world resulting in devastating
attacks on
Israel? Will Israel retaliate with its own nuclear arsenal? Will
the
Jordanian and Saudi Arabian governments be toppled by radicals,
bolstered
by Iran which has much closer ties to terrorism than Iraq?

Could a disruption of the world’s oil supply lead to a world-wide
recession? Has our senselessly bellicose language and our callous
disregard
of the interests and opinions of other nations increased the global
race to
join the nuclear club and made proliferation an even more

lucrative practice for nations which need the income? In only the
space of
two short years this reckless and arrogant Administration has
initiated
policies which may reap disastrous consequences for years.

One can understand the anger and shock of any President after the
savage
attacks of September 11. One can appreciate the frustration of
having
only a shadow to chase and an amorphous, fleeting enemy on which
it is
nearly impossible to exact retribution.

But to turn one’s frustration and anger into the kind of extremely

destabilizing and dangerous foreign policy debacle that the world
is
currently witnessing is inexcusable from any Administration charged
with
the awesome power and responsibility of guiding the destiny of the

greatest superpower on the planet. Frankly many of the
pronouncements made
by this Administration are outrageous. There is no other word.

Yet this chamber is hauntingly silent. On what is possibly the eve
of
horrific infliction of death and destruction on the population of
the
nation of Iraq — a population, I might add, of which over 50% is
under age
15 — this chamber is silent. On what is possibly only days before
we send
thousands of our own citizens to face unimagined horrors of chemical
and
biological warfare — this chamber is silent. On the eve of what
could
possibly be a vicious terrorist attack in retaliation for our attack
on
Iraq, it is business as usual in the United States Senate.

We are truly “sleepwalking through history.” In my heart of hearts
I pray
that this great nation and its good and trusting citizens are not
in for a
rudest of awakenings.

To engage in war is always to pick a wild card. And war must always
be a
last resort, not a first choice. I truly must question the judgment
of any
President who can say that a massive unprovoked military attack on
a
nation which is over 50% children is “in the highest moral
traditions of
our country”. This war is not necessary at this time. Pressure
appears to
be having a good result in Iraq. Our mistake was to put ourselves
in a
corner so quickly. Our challenge is to now find a graceful way out
of a
box of our own making. Perhaps there is still a way if we allow
more time


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From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 25, 2003 at 11:33:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Brett,

> >treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal training

Have you checked their resume?

I am not a rat, and I will not name names.  I do believe whatever anybody does to get clean is a good thing.  I talk to people everyday.  I get feedback about what they are being told and what they are expecting- and that feedback and expectations are not matched by the treatment.

me point something out, given the choice between
treating a patient in their own home it is helpful to
get them away, a hotel in a safe (drug free…) area
with (you pay as you need it) “set and setting” is or
at least can be part of the plan.

Fine, as long as they know these plans ahead of time.

> This is on our website because we feel that it is
> unfair to an individual to
> be manipulated into going to treatment where they

Who is doing the manipulating?

I am not a canary and I will not sing;)

> are expecting the services
> that we do offer only to find out they are in a
> hotel room someplace.

Sorry but maybe it happened once or twice that some
addict (Anne comes to mind) was “confused” about the
situation but basically the above statement is fear
based and largely untrue. Anyway, no offense but maybe
someone doesn’t want your “sevices”.

They don’t have to have our services. It is fair for us to present ourselves in comparison to other options.

>   How about asking some of these practitioners why
> they are charging several
> thousand dollars.  Where is their overhead?

What “practitioners” are you talking about (namely the
non-professionals you are saying are “charging several
thousand dollars”?

I am not a tattle-tail….

You are still stuck on “MY
TREATMENT IS BETTER AND MORE JUST THAN YOURS”

Sure, whatever, if thats the way you feel about it.  From what I can tell there are three established treatment centers in N. America, us, HV and ITH.  And then there are other choices.  And the addict/consumer should make a choice based and his/her wants and needs.  Each of us offer something different in terms of service. We all use ibogaine or some variation of it.  People have different comfort levels, many of them (obviously not you) want to be under the care of a licensed physician, they should choose us or Mash.  If they can afford Mash, I personally would like to see her get the business.  I think her research is important.  And if they are comfortable having treatment without doctors and they wish to spend less money or not travel as far or whatever then that is their choice.  Our remarks did not get on our site arbitrarily; we put them there in response to events that have happened.

One of the biggest reasons I stopped using drugs is I
had to keep seeing those ass-holes. That is their
goal, to be as inept and obnoxious as possible, like
adversion therapy. “if I get addicted again I might
have to go back to THEM!”, kind of thing – and believe
me they have no idea what they are doing. SO my answer
is “who would want a doctor for 3-6 days for any
reason regardless of cost? If it is you, fine have at
it, I will do things MY WAY. Oh my gosh I am taking
“my life in my own hands” – to that I say “EXACTLY”.

Fine, whatever, you don’t like doctors, you made that clear a long time ago. ¬†Do you have anything new to add? ¬†Brett if we are ever hanging out and you have a medical emergency I will be sure not to call for any professionals, OK?

IMO Mash is doing her thing and that is just fine.
YOu are doing your thing and that is fine too.
Other non-professional (though that DOES include some
doctors and nurses giving “treatments” BTW) do their
thing in hotel rooms or however it is done, that is
cool also – with me. Each has their own nitch, their
own clients with their own needs and abilities to pay.
What is this, anyone is free to make a choice as long
as it is with you?

No, again, everyone is free to make a choice.  They should make an informed choice.  And it is more than fair for us to inform people about what to expect from other treatmenters.  And as far as I know we still live in a democratic/capitalistic society where people will make their own choice.

So you are saying it is not OK for Mash to put you
down and say things that are a distortion of the facts
but what you are saying about “guides” is pure and
honest? That is one of the problems I have with you
and your treatnemt, take an honest look in the mirror
before you talk.

You know what Brett, what a bunch blah blah blah.  We are operating a very good business down here.  We have made treatment available to so many people who would have never been able to/ felt comfortable enough to etc.  I used to shoot dope man.  Whatever someone does to quit shooting dope is fine with me.  Meanwhile I will continue to be the program coordinator at the Ibogaine Association and I will continue to try to help people with our treatment.

Don’t worry, despite that I find your posting to be an unnecessary attack…. I still like you.
> Oh and BTW, Brett, I like you too, you always have a
> lot to offer here.

Peace,
Randy

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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 25, 2003 at 9:04:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy,

‘There are individuals who advertise on the
Internet and they might charge
less for their treatment but you need to be aware
that they administer
treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal training

Have you checked their resume?

in handling emergencies
and might be reluctant to take a patient with
complications to the ER.’

More fear. It is manipulating the facts, “they might”.
How about things you “might” do, I mean we have enough
problems with poor medical care in this country, “do
you want to go to the ER in a foreign country where
your insurance (if any) won’t cover?” See, anything
can be twisted. Maybe someone only has enough money
for whatever kind of treatment (not yours) they can
get and if that is in a hotel room (following protocol
and procedures) what is wrong with that besides them
not paying you? How are the ER’s in Mexico these days,
if it is anything like the USA you are in trouble. Let
me point something out, given the choice between
treating a patient in their own home it is helpful to
get them away, a hotel in a safe (drug free…) area
with (you pay as you need it) “set and setting” is or
at least can be part of the plan.

This is on our website because we feel that it is
unfair to an individual to
be manipulated into going to treatment where they

Who is doing the manipulating?

are expecting the services
that we do offer only to find out they are in a
hotel room someplace.

Sorry but maybe it happened once or twice that some
addict (Anne comes to mind) was “confused” about the
situation but basically the above statement is fear
based and largely untrue. Anyway, no offense but maybe
someone doesn’t want your “sevices”. Frankly I
wouldn’t and I wouldn’t even go to Mash if it was free
including air-fare, least not now (I would have once
cause I had limited choices). See, some people really
are not comfortable in a medical environment, I am not
and INVARIABLY they screw and don’t listen – FYI, just
had that happen yet again with a medication I told the
doctor not to try… I was told to “stop being
difficult” – it did exactly what I said it would do
and back on the merry-go-round and another bill.

People who wish to do ibo should make an informed
choice and not be lied to.

Absolutely, who is doing the lying?

How about asking some of these practitioners why
they are charging several
thousand dollars.  Where is their overhead?

What “practitioners” are you talking about (namely the
non-professionals you are saying are “charging several
thousand dollars”? I certaily don’t know of any
“guides” charging those prices. Overhead, you can ask
Sara but I am sure she has rent to pay, needs food and
other items for her patients – which (on the flip
side) you say she gives much closer attention for
longer than you do? You are still stuck on “MY
TREATMENT IS BETTER AND MORE JUST THAN YOURS” and from
what I have seen you don’t have bragging rights. Tell
me, is your success (and I don’t mean just detoxing
with ibo) better than the average guide?

And followed by a stab as Mash without naming her
What do you think it
costs to go to other non-ibo treatment centers?

Which is almost like asking what will it cost to have
my money taken away, feel bad and get little-nothing
in return. What is the long term success rate of these
“treatment centers” vs non-treatment (spontanious
remission so to speak)?

What would it cost to have
a physician at your service for three to six days in
the U.S.?

One of the biggest reasons I stopped using drugs is I
had to keep seeing those ass-holes. That is their
goal, to be as inept and obnoxious as possible, like
adversion therapy. “if I get addicted again I might
have to go back to THEM!”, kind of thing – and believe
me they have no idea what they are doing. SO my answer
is “who would want a doctor for 3-6 days for any
reason regardless of cost? If it is you, fine have at
it, I will do things MY WAY. Oh my gosh I am taking
“my life in my own hands” – to that I say “EXACTLY”.

So you are putting other “guides” down just like you
complain about Mash (who also puts guides down by the
way, you should have heard her about Eric, the DEA
knows about him… now is almost 5 years later and the
song is the same). I was very happy with the treatment
from Eric, did not cost “several thousand dollars” and
I didn’t have to put up with BS (he listened). You
have no idea of the “qualifications” of the person who
treated me so you can’t say, but you did
(non-professional with no training who “might” be
reluctant to call the ER…)

IMO Mash is doing her thing and that is just fine.
YOu are doing your thing and that is fine too.
Other non-professional (though that DOES include some
doctors and nurses giving “treatments” BTW) do their
thing in hotel rooms or however it is done, that is
cool also – with me. Each has their own nitch, their
own clients with their own needs and abilities to pay.
What is this, anyone is free to make a choice as long
as it is with you?

So you are saying it is not OK for Mash to put you
down and say things that are a distortion of the facts
but what you are saying about “guides” is pure and
honest? That is one of the problems I have with you
and your treatnemt, take an honest look in the mirror
before you talk.

Brett

Randy

Oh and BTW, Brett, I like you too, you always have a
lot to offer here.

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From: “thebozman” <thebozman@compassmag.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 25, 2003 at 6:40:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Mark

My name is Richard and I live in Nottingham, Engalnd and have been using
street heroin  on and off for the past 8 years РOn the 16 March Suzana
Souza from Brazil is coming over to treat me with ibogaine at my home and
she will stay with me for one week – my question is if you know of Suzana
and can you offer me any advice – thank you !

warm regards
Richard

if you’re seeing this – hello Randy – hope you’re well
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 6:47 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Randy, what you are saying is simply not true. Ibogaine extract is very
safe, if you get a blood test and confirm your liver (which metabolizes
the
ibogaine) is healthy.

Ibogaine extract IS inherently safe, it is extenuating circumstances that
radically increase risk. In the 35 year history of documented iboga
extract
use, I am not convinced iboga has ever been indicated as potentially
fatal.
Now if someone injects heroin into their arm 4 hours later, thats
dangerous,
but that does not implicate the iboga as dangerous.

REPEAT! You are not taking your life into your hands in any dangerous or
hazardous way if you follow good health protocols. Heart rates, in my
experience, do not change (we take a pulse every 30 minutes, it never
varies). If the patient does not eat for 12 hours prior, there is little
chance of choking on vomit. If the patient’s sitter prevents any intake of
illicit drugs, there is no attenuting circumstances of overdose. If the
patient is hydrated and continues to hydrate, the liver will rapidly
detoxify the metabolizing iboga extract.

I see no evidence in any scientific literature to account for any fatality
as a result of careful use of iboga, or any paralysis, toxic shock,
anaflectic shock, etc.

Using street heroin, methadone, cocaine, meth, etc. is WAY, WAY more
dangerous than careful use of iboga extract, which is not dangerous at
all.
I have no information or any empirical evidence (at this point, I have
treated more people in North America excepting possibly Deborah Mash)
indicating that any complications can arise. You may offer information
that
contradicts that, but I have never seen it in print or in person.

All patients I have treated are significantly improved in every relevent
area in their life. That’s what I know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Marc,

I am glad to see you share your advice and experience.  However, I feel
that
it is irresponsible to assure someone that they “will be OK”. ¬†We all
know
that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence ibo related fatalities.
Marko’s
posting on the other list is honest.  If you do ibo on your own you are
taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh that risk carefully.  At
the
same time, if you are a street drug user you are taking your life into
your
own hands.  Using street dope is probably equally as dangerous as doing
ibo
without experience.  But if you re not doing street dope and you are in
a
treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best to proceed to ibo with
patience and caution and to eliminate as many risks as possible.
Complications can happen, be willing and prepared to call for emergency
help
if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under professional care.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything for
the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water and
herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee,
caffeine-oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any burning
item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during the
iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours prior
to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly
up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining
dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about 8 –
10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate (your
sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting), the
vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially
the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues are
soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high
acidity
of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your
visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours,
thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise you
will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance, and
like
sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise
you
will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if you
have
to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not really
know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while it
is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72 hours,
long
after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem like
a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga
world
and
unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer
addicted,
no
longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions, your
main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been on
60
mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont know
how
much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and drugs
used
in
the
last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will tell you
what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you have
someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Hi Dana

Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,that¬īs not
the
problem.

In the start it was my intention,to do just what you suggest,buy
some
Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that the
“sitter”
had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do
it!!)

I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b
in
the
late
seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never
sick.(flu,cold
and
so),so I think my immune system is good.
Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with
maybe
500mg
Ibo
HCL?
This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and
what
I
could
expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?

Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate
it.:o)
Kind regards
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain
cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I can¬īt
get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking
Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for
me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico
and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful
forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start
to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though,
not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] bl1p
Date: February 25, 2003 at 1:07:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Just to mention.  Ibogaine.co.uk is back.  All is well.

That is all.

Patrick

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 8:58:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think this latest conversation has been very intriguing.

Marc, I like you. ¬†I like what you do. ¬†I think it is wonderful that you are helping out so many people in need. ¬†If I lived in Vancouver I would have voted for you. ¬†Keep doing what you’re doing it is awesome. ¬†If we are ever in the same place at the same time I would like to get together for dinner or something, my treat.

Marko, I like you too.  You (usually) give very grounded advice.

Curtis, I also like you. ¬†You are a thinker, a researcher and make provocative comments/insights. ¬†What do you do? ¬†I will now respond to this: “If a gram costs less then $200, where does the other $3,000 you want for treatment go to?”

We are charging for a service, not just ibo.  The money goes to pay for our staff, our facility, our van, insurance, medical equipment, food, etc.  We would love to be able to give all our treatments for free, however that would be impossible.  Maybe many years from now circumstances will change and we will be able to.  Right now we still live in a society where things cost money.  We are not getting rich down here (I live check to check, and I drive an 88 ford).  I hope that this gives you some clearer perspective on what it costs to run a treatment center.  Marc says that it costs him $1000 out of his own pocket for each patient he treats. You really have no idea what are financial situation is or how much we charge on average or how many clients we treat.  You are making assumptions.

Also, the charity work we have done has proven to have little success.  Unfortunately, people (at least the several that we have helped) do not appreciate what they get for free.

‘There are individuals who advertise on the Internet and they might charge less for their treatment but you need to be aware that they administer treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal training in handling emergencies and might be reluctant to take a patient with complications to the ER.’

This is on our website because we feel that it is unfair to an individual to be manipulated into going to treatment where they are expecting the services that we do offer only to find out they are in a hotel room someplace.  People who wish to do ibo should make an informed choice and not be lied to.  How about asking some of these practitioners why they are charging several thousand dollars.  Where is their overhead?

And followed by a stab as Mash without naming her ‘The Ibogaine Association is the most active program with the greatest number of patients per month. Our goal is to provide safe treatment in a comfortable environment, accessible and at a reasonable price. There are no hidden costs with our program. Licensed physicians with extensive experience administering ibogaine are constantly present and supervising the treatment. Beware of ibogaine treatment centers that talk negatively about their colleagues, or use scare tactics to get you into their program. Some centers are overly expensive, so listen to what they say with skepticism, as the advice from these “experts” will not be objective. There are other treatment providers advertising on the Internet who do not administer ibogaine under medical supervision. Our main interest is to help as many people as possible, by making this new treatment financially reasonable and by providing adequate medical care.’

Despite several pleas to mash’s staff to stop an onslaught of defamatory comments about us and our doctors, her staff continues. ¬†I speak with people every week who talk both to us and HV and they tell me the things that HV says to try and discredit us. ¬†So this is a proactive statement.

Again, people can do what they wish.  I wish for them to make an informed choice about where and how they do ibo. They pay us for a quality of service that includes being tended to by doctors and nurses.  What do you think it costs to go to other non-ibo treatment centers?  What would it cost to have a physician at your service for three to six days in the U.S.?

Randy

Oh and BTW, Brett, I like you too, you always have a lot to offer here.

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From: “Sandra k” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 6:26:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sandra here,

I work for Marc as the screener and evaluator for the therapy and I have a few comments to make myself:

I think the biggest issue here is one of syntax. I agree that Marc should perhaps not speak in such absolute terms (especially when offering advice to anyone who is not applying to the ITH) because as some on this list have mentioned, some people will do whatever seems easiest and pehaps not take the precautions and advice into serious consideration. Desperate people do desperate things. However, I do think Marc has been (aside from what has been said on this list (emails can be so lacking in depth and context), careful with our clients. It is also my job to do whatever I can to ensure that the person undergoing therapy has a well grounded understanding of the possible risks (we have a consent form as well which i explain in depth to applicants). I am sure that our facilitators know this also.

It is true that I do get applicants who may potentially lie about, attempt to cover up, or don’t know about their medical history, so when in doubt I speak to their doctor. That’s the best that I can do. If the information is not consistent or is in question at all (even just by my own intuition), I will reject their application for treatment.

We are trying to help people here, and yes there is risk but we do what we can, while we can. We hope to gather as much data as possible to make this subject clearer (not exactly an easy thing to accomplish though). In my personal opinion we should keep our administrations and our advice to those whom we (at least) are able to screen properly.

By the way, I don’t think Marc ‘needs’ to take Ibogaine. I myself will take it as soon as I have some time (I’m too busy screening applicants at this time) as I am interested in the nature of this plant and what it has to offer. I do not take this lightly, I have experimented with many potent psychoactives in my search for connection to the plant world and have found that all of my explorations if done with intention, preparation and precaution (set & setting)have been (albeit powerful and ass-kicking in some cases) extremely enlightening. It may be a different substance (ibo) but all psychoactives have their risks. As when I take these substances myself, I attempt to inform, question, and evaluate with our clients. It is this knowledge with which I approach my job and I take it quite seriously. This as far as I know is the best possible approach that can be taken given the circumstances.

Keep in mind that Marc, myself, our facilitators and other project consultants are a TEAM and so far, our work has been quite enlightening to us all, including our clients/patients. I can only hope and work towards ensuring that our track record remains this way…

As for Soren, I personally think you should take all that has been said on this list into consideration and not put yourself at risk without taking all precautions possible. This may include seeking an experienced facilitator such as Sara (and I think she’s on this list) to ‘at least’ talk to beforehand…

Best wishes,

Sandra

—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:53:00 -0800 (PST)
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Marc,

I have some other comments for you about the subject
but just saw this email.

“I don’t believe I qualify for the
criteria we have set out at Iboga Thgerapy House,”

That has nothing to do with nothing – as in you are
using it as an excuse not to do it. Nothing is
stopping you from doing it at home or doing it at the
ITH, just change the rules. If you don’t want to do
it, say “I DON’T WANT TO DO IT”. It is like the “I
don’t do drugs” excuse or someone else I know who is
procrastinating about taking ibogaine, after a few
“excuses” we talked (me knowing the answer before we
did) and it is simple FEAR, nothing more, nothing less
and that is the absolute truth. Another person was
concerned about being tainted by the drug, under its
spell… so I don’t know that this person took it
(wink, wink), and no doubt they did, NONE.

that its to be used for individuals with
self-destructive drug dependency problems or
individuals with repetitive & self-destructive
behaviour patterns.

Funny, how many people with whatever excuses and the
belief that they are not addicts… nothing is wrong
with them… who took ibogaine, and saw and understood
AND it was very different than anything they expected
or believed ibogaine to be like. FYI, no, you didn’t
treat more people except for Mash – even in the
Americas.

However, one (Linette)  of our
two permanent facillitators has tried a full dose
with remarkable results about four weeks ago.

No one has pointed out how IBOGA extract may be
unsafe, how this has been established? Five or six
deaths over 35+ years does not indict the Iboga
Extract.

Stop being so defensive, it is not an indictment
against iboga extract or ibogaine. How is this, take
water, too much water, you die, too little water, you
die – same thing with oxygen, too much or in the wrong
place, or maybe used by someone who is inexperienced.
Everything has its own risks.
You have not delt with many addicts (lol, I know you
have) but you may have noticed a character trait, they
often don’t tell the truth (even to themselves) and
don’t follow instructions very well. Don’t get me
wrong, follow protocol/procedures and ibogaine is
pretty safe stuff for healthy people but addicts often
do not follow instructions, let alone “protocol”
(yeah, right, get some ibo, get off on that and if it
don’t work keep a few bags handy…) and often are not
very healty/had medical issues neglected or just don’t
know.

Those deaths appears to be related to iboga
in conjunction with other unhealthy situations.

Absolutely!

Similar to when pot and alcohol show up in a
coroner’s report, the two are in the system, but the
cannabis did not in any way cause death. I have not

You are speaking from inexperience with the substance
and are sadly very mistaken. People on ibogaine can
just go, ¬†poof, no “cause”, just leave (as in their
spirit/soul or whatever you want to call it got
disconnected from their body, LOST, decided to leave).
Again, I am not saying it and of itself is not safe
when taken according to protocol – which includes NOT
giving it to people who really have an interest in
being on the “other side”. Tell me Marc, why in this
scientific world would MASH (a scientist type person)
require people to sign a statement that they will come
back (yes from the IBO WORLD…)? I mean protocol has
been followed right? They give ibo in the strictest
environment, all the medical equipment you could ask
for, doctors and staff… but she needs them to sign a
round trip ticket, that is very unscientific. Curious
don’t you think?

seen a coroner’s report hold iboga or ibogaine
responsible for any death.

People are still dead.

20,000 – 50,000 people worldwide must have
experienced iboga, iboga extract, Ibogaine HCI in
the last 35 years,

It is likely far, far higher than that. YOu got your
various iboga religions, Bwiti and its flavors, the
little people of the forest

and I cannot see any evidence in
the science or anecdotal evidence that implicates
iboga in death or even in serious injury.

Then you missed it, I have.

Ibogaine is reasonably safe, even very safe stuff vs
the alternative, but there are risks, protocol or not.
YOU MUST also consider that (as I said) addicts do not
follow instructions very well. You must consider that
someday someone will come up allergic, PEOPLE’s hearts
sometimes stop (yes, this really happens and really
doesn’t get reported to the news or police). I mean if
it is so safe, why the F do you learn CPR to give
ibo??? If it is so safe??? Hearts stopping is not a
safe event but yet you are ready for an un-safe event
are you not? I know CPR, I have done CPR (it is easier
when there are not bullet holes in someones chest, it
kind of leaks), in fact I am as cool as it comes in an
emergency, dead bodies, blood, broken bones, body
parts, babies being born (both C-Section and natural)
-seen em all, held em all, been there, done that and
ibogaine makes me nervous, more the HCL (at higher
dosages) than Indra at 5-6 max.

So, in part I guess what I am saying is most of the
time everyone will just come out fine and dandy but
the mix of SOME DRUG ADDICT/Person with SOME SITTER
who may or may not have followed protocol and have the
emergency phone numbers handy or know what to do… is
an unknown variable thrown into the equation.

Good health screening protocols are very helpful and
we certainly do this at ITH. In fact, our screening

Yes, absolutely.

protocol is probably more thorough than any other
facility outside of the doctor run facillities in
the West Indies, Panama and Mexico.

I believe if an ordinary person follows our
procedures, an individual could very safely have an
iboga experience. This insistence that what I am

You are absoutely correct, “IF” and “ordinary person”
come together to do such a thing.  FYI, I read
somewhere that in traditional use of iboga (ritual
doses which are very high) that death rate is 1:6000.

saying is ‘reckless’ sounds to me like the way
priesthood’s insist they are the conduit to God,
that only they know ‘iboga’s’ true power. That
individual autonomy somehow here is dangerous, and
that an elite class of practitioners is required. I
believe if you can get to a place like Iboga Therapy
House, thats the best option possibly. But if I were

Yes. My suggestion to (just) anyone seeking treatment
is to see someone experienced with the administration
of iboga, hopefully away from home, under controlled
environment/set/setting… This is for a variety of
reasons, one of which is safty, another is success. I
see too many people “just take it” and fail, there are
a lot that you can twist the right way or the wrong
way during and just after doing ibo. Sure, it is going
to detox anyone well enough, Joe Dickhead could pretty
much (in relative safty) detox himself following some
protocol and procedure. You say to move in a certain
way but the addict/initiate will have no clue during
the session how fast they are moving, they often
enough “BOUNCE” up. This is not to say that some
people I would feel comfortable with doing it
themselves who have zero experience, depends on who
they are and how seriously they take things. Contrast,
an active dope fiend may not do so well following
instructions but maybe a long term meth addict (with
career, a couple nurses come to mind) who is tired of
it will follow them closer and be more serious about
it – the “junkie” vs the more stable person/addict,
there is a difference.

For the life of me though I have a hard time with “the
keys” to ibogaine. Be it a junkie or whoever, however
they should have the opportunity to take ibogaine,
even if they are not serious about it. I just can’t
hold back the medicine cause I think I know someone is
not ready for it (unless it is a clear danger of
course).  All you can do sometimes is give em a
choice, tell them the rules and let them find their
own way (learning experience sometimes on how not to
do ibogaine…).

an addicted person far away from a place like ITH,
and I had a serious think about iboga, I would find
the risk very attractive viz. the potential
benefits.

Total agreement. Question, how many addicts do you
know of that take medication (you know, like do not
mix with alcohol, do not operate heavy machinery, take
X quantity…) according to the very simple
instructions on a script bottle??? There in lies the
biggest problem with many addicts doing it themselves,
they don’t listen.

Brett

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House
—– Original Message —–
From: Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here
is what you should do

You hit that right on the button Marko!

HAVE YOU EVER INGESTED A FULL DOSE OF IBO YOURSELF
MARC?
I AM ALMOST 100% SURE YOU HAVE NOT!
By observing you have not seen the deep
revelations.

Under no circumstances should you iterate it is
safe for everyone.
Everyone reacts differently, watch the advice you
give.

Not trying to be harsh but I know I wouldn’t want
to feel responsible for giving bad advice and seeing
someone hurt. I should hope you feel the same.

Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
www.ethnogarden.com
ethnogarden@sympatico.ca
Tel: (01)705-735-0540
Fax:(01)705735-4332
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself,
here is what you should do

Curtis,

yes, sarcasm, that’s exactly it!

We’ve been through this shit some time ago, when
Carl N.W. advertised Indra
Extract (ooops, HIS extract) as the best and oh
and ah material to detox.

Now this is repeating. Not only the
glorification of Indra (MARC wrote:
“You should use the Indra extract”). I won’t go
into why Soren should use
Indra and why not rootbark or HCl or something
else… The problem here is
that someone who is experienced (btw, Marc, have
you ingested a full dose
of IBO, in any form?) doesn’t give someone new
to IBO (who is seeking
deliverance and new life) a quality information,
but in fact says : This is
the best for you!

Is it really?

The same thing is with Sara’s post on another
list. Let me paste it here
for those who are not subscribed to it:

“I know a man who ended up in the madhouse
After taking Ibo. alone,
He stayed there for a month,
He got the stuff from me; he said he had a
sitter,
His health wasn’t so good after all,
If you like to do a treatment on your own, you
must know
There are risks which are not worth taking,
You like to take the easy way out but that
including a possible nightmare
or panic attack .
Think about it.

Sara”

Now, think about it and read what’s between
lines. And see that
one-sidedness of info. Oh, and don’t forget that
Soren lives quite close to
Sara! And she is experienced treatment provider
and I see that with her
there are no possibilities of possible nightmare
or panic attack…

Besides, Marc says: “Ibogaine extract IS
inherently safe…” And so is
rootbark. And HCl. But wait – is this true? Can
we be 100% sure of what
Marc wrote? Is he entitled to make such
statements? What are his
credentials? Where did he get info on this? Were
there scientific, medical,
clinical trials on humans (using that inherently
safe extract), or were
just some lab experiments on mice and rats
(using that inherently safe
extract – or was it IBO base, or HCl, or
something else??) I must have
missed this in research papers: ¬†“In the 35 year
history of documented
iboga extract use…” Marc, can you please let
us know where to get these
documents? I’m quite sure that I’m not the only
one wanting to study this!

No, Marc, nothing IS inherently safe, not even
IBOgaine extract. Nor milk.

Nor life.

And I hope that everyone will as soon as
possible understand that IBO is no
fun, that it should be treated with utmost
respect. That it can act one way
in one person, and completely another way in
another person… even though
it acted the first way in 100 persons… So,
Marc, what if Soren doesn’t
get over it?

Henk, it seems, forgot this for a moment ant
took IBO too lightly. Haven’t
you learned anything from him????

If you haven’t, then I suggest that all of you
make a special URL wich will
advertise your IBO and your way of treating
people. You can use BIIIG
words, in many colours, you can even tell the
world that you Are THE Only
One In The World Who Knows EVERYTHING About IBO,
The ONLY ONE Who Can
Administer It Safely And Efficiently To Whomever
Reading….. I’m sure that
Patrick will gladly put this URL in the headers
of list E-mail… Or
wouldn’t he?

YOu can be sure that I won’t appear there ;-))

And another thing, regarding use of water when
getting IBO down the throat:
Bwiti say “L’eau tue l’Iboga”

But some people, it seems, know better. After
all, who the heck are those
Bwiti? What do they know about IBO?? If they
knew anything, then THEY would
write about pharmacodynamics of IBOga!!

;-))

Marko

At 04:13 24.2.2003, you wrote:

I’m going to word what I say carefuly because I
don’t want to offend
anyone by accident and nothing I’m saying has
anything to do with the
skill of doctors from one country or another. I
also want to make sure I
put across what I mean to say, I have to give
this more thought then
others who can write 50 paragraphs without
setting off any bombs, hi
patrick ūüėČ

I think what Marc does is very honorable bro.
Not only does he help people
for free but he gives out and shares his info.
I don’t see anyone else
doing that as has been mentioned here before.

I don’t set out to knock anyone and think
everyone should get help in any
way that is best for them but Marko posted a
message that was very
sarcastic and full of Patrickisms and mindvox
quotes ‘FoLloW the yELloW
BrIcK RoaD’ and mixed upper and lowercase and
all this and I don’t know
what he really meant. What I read was sarcasm.

As someone who dosed ibogaine on my own and am
much happier for it I think
that some of what you are doing is just the pot
calling the kettle black.
Mash may spread FUD about how nobody else knows
what they are doing or she
knows more and maybe she does. But taking this
from your own web site, you
do exactly the same thing.

‘There are individuals who advertise on the
internet and they might charge
less for their treatment but you need to be
aware that they administer
treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal
training in handling emergencies
and might be reluctant to take a patient with
complications to the ER.’

And followed by a stab as Mash without naming
her ‘The Ibogaine
Association is the most active program with the
greatest number of
patients per month. Our goal is to provide safe
treatment in a comfortable
environment, accessible and at a reasonable
price. There are no hidden
costs with our program. Licensed physicians
with extensive experience
administering ibogaine are constantly present
and supervising the
treatment. Beware of ibogaine treatment centers
that talk negatively about
their colleagues, or use scare tactics to get
you into their program. Some
centers are overly expensive, so listen to what
they say with skepticism,
as the advice from these “experts” will not be
objective. There are other
treatment providers advertising on the Internet
who do not administer
ibogaine under medical supervision. Our main
interest is to help as many
people as possible, by making this new
treatment financially reasonable
and by providing adequate medical care.’

Bro I have no doubt you all want to help
people, but you don’t do anything
different from Mash. You run a business and
detox people with ibogaine. If
a gram costs less then $200, where does the
other $3,000 you want for
treatment go to? Mash can explain where $10,000
or more goes with all the
people she hires and extra costs she has, but
what is it that you do?

I know people who have detoxed with you all,
you aren’t putting people on
heart monitors so how do you even know if
something is happening unless
they tell you?

Telling people that if they do not take
ibogaine under medical supervision
they should not take it, is not right. Warning
that they might be better
off with it is something else. And this message
has nothing at all to do
with doctors from one country or another one,
it is written to reply to
exactly what you said and exactly what you
advertise on your web site
which is by the way the only ibogaine web site
running commerical ads.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:37:35 -0800 Randy
Hencken
<randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
Marc,

I am glad to see you share your advice and
experience.  However,
I feel that
it is irresponsible to assure someone that
they “will be OK”. ¬†We
all know
that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence
ibo related fatalities.
Marko’s
posting on the other list is honest.  If you
do ibo on your own
you are
taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh
that risk carefully.
At the
same time, if you are a street drug user you
are taking your life
into your
own hands.  Using street dope is probably
equally as dangerous as
doing ibo
without experience.  But if you re not doing
street dope and you
are in a
treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best
to proceed to ibo
with
patience and caution and to eliminate as many
risks as possible.

Complications can happen, be willing and
prepared to call for emergency
help
if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under
professional care.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself,
here is what you should
do
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA
extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour
0. Do not eat anything
for the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose.
Drink plenty of water
and herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly
not coffee, caffeine-
oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours
prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely
dark. All windows should
be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT
USE incense or any
burning item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.)
at anytime during
the iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug
whatsoever for the 24 hours
prior to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential
non-addictive substances
not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a
mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of
Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal,
comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly
up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad
reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of
gel caps for the remaining
dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining
dose is 4,700 mg, in about
8 – 10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half
glasses of water to take
those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot,
you will have nausea
more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as
long as you hydrate
(your
sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water
after a vomitting),
the
vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part
of your detox. Most
of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but
the big guys do, especially
the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK,
but your stomach tissues
are soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to
respond to the high
acidity of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6
times during your visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test
dose) plus Two hours,
thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a
very slow robot, otherwise
you
will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going
to be off balance,
and like
sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be
stiff and slow, otherwise
you
will bring on further nausea. This is
important, MOVE SLOWLY if
you have to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You
may, at the time, not
really know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able
to talk about it while
it is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be
clear in about 72
hours, long
after visualization has passed. However,
your withdrawl and feeling
of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus
three hours. It will seem
like a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be
deeply into the iboga
world
and
unaware of those earthbound things, even
that you are no longer
addicted,
no
longer going through withdrawl (if you
follow my instructions,
your main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate
withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would
like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the
last 2 months,I have been
on 60 mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a
day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg
Methadone,to 60,but I dont
know how
much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal
than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight,
frequency of drug use and
drugs used
in
the
last two months. You should use the
Indra extract. I will
tell you
what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would
be great, but if you
have
someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert,
you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 6:08:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

As far as the safety of eboka goes, there are two main non-pygmy
tribes using iboga (in Bwiti rites), The Mitsogo and the Fang.
The Mitsogo had eboka first and are reputed to be more cautious on
dosage, with fewer if any deaths compared to the Fang.

Before giving large amounts of eboga to initiates Metsogo test
them out with small amounts first “to see if they can support
the drug or if they have evil spirits which will use the drug as
an excuse to kill their host.” ¬†(Bwiti: an Ethnography of the
Religious Imagination in Africa, by James W. Fernandez)

It may be that the test dose that is commonly given can detect
problems, but what if there is something more psychological that
the Mitsogo look for? Remember, life and death are at stake, and there
are plenty of conditions (mental and physical) that can affect,
say, one in 10,000 – who has records on that many patients and can
unambiguously determine why all deaths occurred? Who has records
on even 1,000 patients?

Humility and caution are called for here. The risks may be worth the
rewards, as for aspirin which kills a number of people, but we
don’t have the data for ibogaine that has been collected for aspirin
and anyone making any claim should bear that in mind and give their
basis for the claim, as well as their qualifications.

Bill Ross

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Vocci Sez 18-MC 8 Years From Approval
Date: February 24, 2003 at 5:26:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Somebody should write the WSJ that bup is NOT non-addictive, that
there have been numerous bup deaths in France, and that the
preparation they’re really talking about is buprenex (“makes you go
into withdrawal if you inject it”). Some one should tell them about
the Trexan deaths with UROD.

[Somebody ought come up with documentation of claims that have
appeared on this list that longterm trexan use makes you go bald and
impotent.]

And some one ought to tell them about the wildfire underground spread
of Ibogaine!

Dana/cnw

Pubdate: Thu, 20 Feb 2003
Source: Wall Street Journal (US)
Copyright: 2003 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
Contact: wsj.ltrs@wsj.com
Website: http://www.wsj.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/487
Author: Peter Landers, Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/rehab.htm (Treatment)
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?136 (Methadone)

NEW DRUGS PROMISE TREATMENT FOR ADDICTS, PROFITS FOR FIRMS

Seven years ago, Steve, a chemical engineer in Texas, began craving
painkillers. “You take three or four pills and you feel so good in just 30
minutes. … It’s like Christmas morning,” recalls Steve, who didn’t want
his last name used for fear of losing his job.

Last month he found a new drug — one designed to cure his addiction. Known
as buprenorphine, it eliminates cravings for painkillers but isn’t
addictive itself. Patients can get the drug privately at a doctor’s office;
around 1,000 physicians have been certified to prescribe it.

Buprenorphine is the advance guard of what could be a revolution in
addiction treatment — one that allows people to discreetly get help from a
family doctor in the form of a pill. Americans have long looked askance at
the idea of treating a drug addiction with another drug, but that is
changing as the federal government and a handful of young drug companies
search for treatments to help people addicted to alcohol, painkillers,
cocaine and heroin.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03.n284.a03.html

——————————

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 4:53:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marc,

I have some other comments for you about the subject
but just saw this email.

“I don’t believe I qualify for the
criteria we have set out at Iboga Thgerapy House,”

That has nothing to do with nothing – as in you are
using it as an excuse not to do it. Nothing is
stopping you from doing it at home or doing it at the
ITH, just change the rules. If you don’t want to do
it, say “I DON’T WANT TO DO IT”. It is like the “I
don’t do drugs” excuse or someone else I know who is
procrastinating about taking ibogaine, after a few
“excuses” we talked (me knowing the answer before we
did) and it is simple FEAR, nothing more, nothing less
and that is the absolute truth. Another person was
concerned about being tainted by the drug, under its
spell… so I don’t know that this person took it
(wink, wink), and no doubt they did, NONE.

that its to be used for individuals with
self-destructive drug dependency problems or
individuals with repetitive & self-destructive
behaviour patterns.

Funny, how many people with whatever excuses and the
belief that they are not addicts… nothing is wrong
with them… who took ibogaine, and saw and understood
AND it was very different than anything they expected
or believed ibogaine to be like. FYI, no, you didn’t
treat more people except for Mash – even in the
Americas.

However, one (Linette)  of our
two permanent facillitators has tried a full dose
with remarkable results about four weeks ago.

No one has pointed out how IBOGA extract may be
unsafe, how this has been established? Five or six
deaths over 35+ years does not indict the Iboga
Extract.

Stop being so defensive, it is not an indictment
against iboga extract or ibogaine. How is this, take
water, too much water, you die, too little water, you
die – same thing with oxygen, too much or in the wrong
place, or maybe used by someone who is inexperienced.
Everything has its own risks.
You have not delt with many addicts (lol, I know you
have) but you may have noticed a character trait, they
often don’t tell the truth (even to themselves) and
don’t follow instructions very well. Don’t get me
wrong, follow protocol/procedures and ibogaine is
pretty safe stuff for healthy people but addicts often
do not follow instructions, let alone “protocol”
(yeah, right, get some ibo, get off on that and if it
don’t work keep a few bags handy…) and often are not
very healty/had medical issues neglected or just don’t
know.

Those deaths appears to be related to iboga
in conjunction with other unhealthy situations.

Absolutely!

Similar to when pot and alcohol show up in a
coroner’s report, the two are in the system, but the
cannabis did not in any way cause death. I have not

You are speaking from inexperience with the substance
and are sadly very mistaken. People on ibogaine can
just go, ¬†poof, no “cause”, just leave (as in their
spirit/soul or whatever you want to call it got
disconnected from their body, LOST, decided to leave).
Again, I am not saying it and of itself is not safe
when taken according to protocol – which includes NOT
giving it to people who really have an interest in
being on the “other side”. Tell me Marc, why in this
scientific world would MASH (a scientist type person)
require people to sign a statement that they will come
back (yes from the IBO WORLD…)? I mean protocol has
been followed right? They give ibo in the strictest
environment, all the medical equipment you could ask
for, doctors and staff… but she needs them to sign a
round trip ticket, that is very unscientific. Curious
don’t you think?

seen a coroner’s report hold iboga or ibogaine
responsible for any death.

People are still dead.

20,000 – 50,000 people worldwide must have
experienced iboga, iboga extract, Ibogaine HCI in
the last 35 years,

It is likely far, far higher than that. YOu got your
various iboga religions, Bwiti and its flavors, the
little people of the forest

and I cannot see any evidence in
the science or anecdotal evidence that implicates
iboga in death or even in serious injury.

Then you missed it, I have.

Ibogaine is reasonably safe, even very safe stuff vs
the alternative, but there are risks, protocol or not.
YOU MUST also consider that (as I said) addicts do not
follow instructions very well. You must consider that
someday someone will come up allergic, PEOPLE’s hearts
sometimes stop (yes, this really happens and really
doesn’t get reported to the news or police). I mean if
it is so safe, why the F do you learn CPR to give
ibo??? If it is so safe??? Hearts stopping is not a
safe event but yet you are ready for an un-safe event
are you not? I know CPR, I have done CPR (it is easier
when there are not bullet holes in someones chest, it
kind of leaks), in fact I am as cool as it comes in an
emergency, dead bodies, blood, broken bones, body
parts, babies being born (both C-Section and natural)
-seen em all, held em all, been there, done that and
ibogaine makes me nervous, more the HCL (at higher
dosages) than Indra at 5-6 max.

So, in part I guess what I am saying is most of the
time everyone will just come out fine and dandy but
the mix of SOME DRUG ADDICT/Person with SOME SITTER
who may or may not have followed protocol and have the
emergency phone numbers handy or know what to do… is
an unknown variable thrown into the equation.

Good health screening protocols are very helpful and
we certainly do this at ITH. In fact, our screening

Yes, absolutely.

protocol is probably more thorough than any other
facility outside of the doctor run facillities in
the West Indies, Panama and Mexico.

I believe if an ordinary person follows our
procedures, an individual could very safely have an
iboga experience. This insistence that what I am

You are absoutely correct, “IF” and “ordinary person”
come together to do such a thing.  FYI, I read
somewhere that in traditional use of iboga (ritual
doses which are very high) that death rate is 1:6000.

saying is ‘reckless’ sounds to me like the way
priesthood’s insist they are the conduit to God,
that only they know ‘iboga’s’ true power. That
individual autonomy somehow here is dangerous, and
that an elite class of practitioners is required. I
believe if you can get to a place like Iboga Therapy
House, thats the best option possibly. But if I were

Yes. My suggestion to (just) anyone seeking treatment
is to see someone experienced with the administration
of iboga, hopefully away from home, under controlled
environment/set/setting… This is for a variety of
reasons, one of which is safty, another is success. I
see too many people “just take it” and fail, there are
a lot that you can twist the right way or the wrong
way during and just after doing ibo. Sure, it is going
to detox anyone well enough, Joe Dickhead could pretty
much (in relative safty) detox himself following some
protocol and procedure. You say to move in a certain
way but the addict/initiate will have no clue during
the session how fast they are moving, they often
enough “BOUNCE” up. This is not to say that some
people I would feel comfortable with doing it
themselves who have zero experience, depends on who
they are and how seriously they take things. Contrast,
an active dope fiend may not do so well following
instructions but maybe a long term meth addict (with
career, a couple nurses come to mind) who is tired of
it will follow them closer and be more serious about
it – the “junkie” vs the more stable person/addict,
there is a difference.

For the life of me though I have a hard time with “the
keys” to ibogaine. Be it a junkie or whoever, however
they should have the opportunity to take ibogaine,
even if they are not serious about it. I just can’t
hold back the medicine cause I think I know someone is
not ready for it (unless it is a clear danger of
course).  All you can do sometimes is give em a
choice, tell them the rules and let them find their
own way (learning experience sometimes on how not to
do ibogaine…).

an addicted person far away from a place like ITH,
and I had a serious think about iboga, I would find
the risk very attractive viz. the potential
benefits.

Total agreement. Question, how many addicts do you
know of that take medication (you know, like do not
mix with alcohol, do not operate heavy machinery, take
X quantity…) according to the very simple
instructions on a script bottle??? There in lies the
biggest problem with many addicts doing it themselves,
they don’t listen.

Brett

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House
—– Original Message —–
From: Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here
is what you should do

You hit that right on the button Marko!

HAVE YOU EVER INGESTED A FULL DOSE OF IBO YOURSELF
MARC?
I AM ALMOST 100% SURE YOU HAVE NOT!
By observing you have not seen the deep
revelations.

Under no circumstances should you iterate it is
safe for everyone.
Everyone reacts differently, watch the advice you
give.

Not trying to be harsh but I know I wouldn’t want
to feel responsible for giving bad advice and seeing
someone hurt. I should hope you feel the same.

Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
www.ethnogarden.com
ethnogarden@sympatico.ca
Tel: (01)705-735-0540
Fax:(01)705735-4332
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself,
here is what you should do

Curtis,

yes, sarcasm, that’s exactly it!

We’ve been through this shit some time ago, when
Carl N.W. advertised Indra
Extract (ooops, HIS extract) as the best and oh
and ah material to detox.

Now this is repeating. Not only the
glorification of Indra (MARC wrote:
“You should use the Indra extract”). I won’t go
into why Soren should use
Indra and why not rootbark or HCl or something
else… The problem here is
that someone who is experienced (btw, Marc, have
you ingested a full dose
of IBO, in any form?) doesn’t give someone new
to IBO (who is seeking
deliverance and new life) a quality information,
but in fact says : This is
the best for you!

Is it really?

The same thing is with Sara’s post on another
list. Let me paste it here
for those who are not subscribed to it:

“I know a man who ended up in the madhouse
After taking Ibo. alone,
He stayed there for a month,
He got the stuff from me; he said he had a
sitter,
His health wasn’t so good after all,
If you like to do a treatment on your own, you
must know
There are risks which are not worth taking,
You like to take the easy way out but that
including a possible nightmare
or panic attack .
Think about it.

Sara”

Now, think about it and read what’s between
lines. And see that
one-sidedness of info. Oh, and don’t forget that
Soren lives quite close to
Sara! And she is experienced treatment provider
and I see that with her
there are no possibilities of possible nightmare
or panic attack…

Besides, Marc says: “Ibogaine extract IS
inherently safe…” And so is
rootbark. And HCl. But wait – is this true? Can
we be 100% sure of what
Marc wrote? Is he entitled to make such
statements? What are his
credentials? Where did he get info on this? Were
there scientific, medical,
clinical trials on humans (using that inherently
safe extract), or were
just some lab experiments on mice and rats
(using that inherently safe
extract – or was it IBO base, or HCl, or
something else??) I must have
missed this in research papers: ¬†“In the 35 year
history of documented
iboga extract use…” Marc, can you please let
us know where to get these
documents? I’m quite sure that I’m not the only
one wanting to study this!

No, Marc, nothing IS inherently safe, not even
IBOgaine extract. Nor milk.

Nor life.

And I hope that everyone will as soon as
possible understand that IBO is no
fun, that it should be treated with utmost
respect. That it can act one way
in one person, and completely another way in
another person… even though
it acted the first way in 100 persons… So,
Marc, what if Soren doesn’t
get over it?

Henk, it seems, forgot this for a moment ant
took IBO too lightly. Haven’t
you learned anything from him????

If you haven’t, then I suggest that all of you
make a special URL wich will
advertise your IBO and your way of treating
people. You can use BIIIG
words, in many colours, you can even tell the
world that you Are THE Only
One In The World Who Knows EVERYTHING About IBO,
The ONLY ONE Who Can
Administer It Safely And Efficiently To Whomever
Reading….. I’m sure that
Patrick will gladly put this URL in the headers
of list E-mail… Or
wouldn’t he?

YOu can be sure that I won’t appear there ;-))

And another thing, regarding use of water when
getting IBO down the throat:
Bwiti say “L’eau tue l’Iboga”

But some people, it seems, know better. After
all, who the heck are those
Bwiti? What do they know about IBO?? If they
knew anything, then THEY would
write about pharmacodynamics of IBOga!!

;-))

Marko

At 04:13 24.2.2003, you wrote:

I’m going to word what I say carefuly because I
don’t want to offend
anyone by accident and nothing I’m saying has
anything to do with the
skill of doctors from one country or another. I
also want to make sure I
put across what I mean to say, I have to give
this more thought then
others who can write 50 paragraphs without
setting off any bombs, hi
patrick ūüėČ

I think what Marc does is very honorable bro.
Not only does he help people
for free but he gives out and shares his info.
I don’t see anyone else
doing that as has been mentioned here before.

I don’t set out to knock anyone and think
everyone should get help in any
way that is best for them but Marko posted a
message that was very
sarcastic and full of Patrickisms and mindvox
quotes ‘FoLloW the yELloW
BrIcK RoaD’ and mixed upper and lowercase and
all this and I don’t know
what he really meant. What I read was sarcasm.

As someone who dosed ibogaine on my own and am
much happier for it I think
that some of what you are doing is just the pot
calling the kettle black.
Mash may spread FUD about how nobody else knows
what they are doing or she
knows more and maybe she does. But taking this
from your own web site, you
do exactly the same thing.

‘There are individuals who advertise on the
internet and they might charge
less for their treatment but you need to be
aware that they administer
treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal
training in handling emergencies
and might be reluctant to take a patient with
complications to the ER.’

And followed by a stab as Mash without naming
her ‘The Ibogaine
Association is the most active program with the
greatest number of
patients per month. Our goal is to provide safe
treatment in a comfortable
environment, accessible and at a reasonable
price. There are no hidden
costs with our program. Licensed physicians
with extensive experience
administering ibogaine are constantly present
and supervising the
treatment. Beware of ibogaine treatment centers
that talk negatively about
their colleagues, or use scare tactics to get
you into their program. Some
centers are overly expensive, so listen to what
they say with skepticism,
as the advice from these “experts” will not be
objective. There are other
treatment providers advertising on the Internet
who do not administer
ibogaine under medical supervision. Our main
interest is to help as many
people as possible, by making this new
treatment financially reasonable
and by providing adequate medical care.’

Bro I have no doubt you all want to help
people, but you don’t do anything
different from Mash. You run a business and
detox people with ibogaine. If
a gram costs less then $200, where does the
other $3,000 you want for
treatment go to? Mash can explain where $10,000
or more goes with all the
people she hires and extra costs she has, but
what is it that you do?

I know people who have detoxed with you all,
you aren’t putting people on
heart monitors so how do you even know if
something is happening unless
they tell you?

Telling people that if they do not take
ibogaine under medical supervision
they should not take it, is not right. Warning
that they might be better
off with it is something else. And this message
has nothing at all to do
with doctors from one country or another one,
it is written to reply to
exactly what you said and exactly what you
advertise on your web site
which is by the way the only ibogaine web site
running commerical ads.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:37:35 -0800 Randy
Hencken
<randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
Marc,

I am glad to see you share your advice and
experience.  However,
I feel that
it is irresponsible to assure someone that
they “will be OK”. ¬†We
all know
that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence
ibo related fatalities.
Marko’s
posting on the other list is honest.  If you
do ibo on your own
you are
taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh
that risk carefully.
At the
same time, if you are a street drug user you
are taking your life
into your
own hands.  Using street dope is probably
equally as dangerous as
doing ibo
without experience.  But if you re not doing
street dope and you
are in a
treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best
to proceed to ibo
with
patience and caution and to eliminate as many
risks as possible.

Complications can happen, be willing and
prepared to call for emergency
help
if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under
professional care.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself,
here is what you should
do
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA
extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour
0. Do not eat anything
for the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose.
Drink plenty of water
and herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly
not coffee, caffeine-
oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours
prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely
dark. All windows should
be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT
USE incense or any
burning item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.)
at anytime during
the iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug
whatsoever for the 24 hours
prior to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential
non-addictive substances
not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a
mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of
Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal,
comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly
up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad
reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of
gel caps for the remaining
dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining
dose is 4,700 mg, in about
8 – 10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half
glasses of water to take
those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot,
you will have nausea
more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as
long as you hydrate
(your
sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water
after a vomitting),
the
vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part
of your detox. Most
of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but
the big guys do, especially
the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK,
but your stomach tissues
are soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to
respond to the high
acidity of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6
times during your visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test
dose) plus Two hours,
thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a
very slow robot, otherwise
you
will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going
to be off balance,
and like
sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be
stiff and slow, otherwise
you
will bring on further nausea. This is
important, MOVE SLOWLY if
you have to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You
may, at the time, not
really know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able
to talk about it while
it is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be
clear in about 72
hours, long
after visualization has passed. However,
your withdrawl and feeling
of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus
three hours. It will seem
like a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be
deeply into the iboga
world
and
unaware of those earthbound things, even
that you are no longer
addicted,
no
longer going through withdrawl (if you
follow my instructions,
your main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate
withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would
like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the
last 2 months,I have been
on 60 mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a
day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg
Methadone,to 60,but I dont
know how
much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal
than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight,
frequency of drug use and
drugs used
in
the
last two months. You should use the
Indra extract. I will
tell you
what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would
be great, but if you
have
someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert,
you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

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From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 4:36:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 21:27 24.2.2003, you wrote:
Of course, we don’t charge anything to our patients, that makes us unique in the world. So as to this,
>>>I used to work with some people who haven’t ingested IBO. Every time we met they wanted me to rise HCl prices. They knew this was a GOOD bussiness! Then they started to place advertising on Internet and in newspapers, something like this: 100% solution to addiction! We use Ibogaine! Call…

I don’t work with them anymore ;-))

I don’t know what you mean.

You don’t?

I mean that anyone doing treatments (except maybe MDs, they’re supposed to give Hyppocrates oath, and they know something about bio-chemistry and receptors and things) should know what they are doing. More direct, all treatment facilitators (including you) should ingest full dose of IBO. This is THE ONLY WAY you can understand it!! No literature can give you such a deep insight as personal experience!

Of course, you don’t charge anything to your patients… I hope that you have¬† at least one MD employed, and that Indra Extract is on Canadian equivalent to our List of Medicaments, so this healing of a disease is legal… Otherwise you’ll eventually have some BIG problems!

Just to let you know that you’re not so unique: Sacrament of Transition also gives away free IBO. It does that since it was founded. And before that, I gave it for free, too.

We use HCI for the small daily doses we give the crack cocaine users for 15 – 20 days after a main treatment.

And this you will have to rephrase:

>>>Btw, how did you like Linette’s yesterday’s lunch? Was your stomach full?<<<

I’ll explain the meaning of this. You wrote that you haven’t had IBO, but Linette had it. I’d like to know what do YOU have from her experience?

Hope this is clear enough?

Most of our patients, notably the thin or non-obese patients, do not vomit. We give them Gravol (an anti-nauseant)¬† 30 minutes before the main dose. Linette, for example, had a very fine journey, where she was with the Bwiti for quite a spell. Resolved a number of childhood traumas during her experience. Linette doesn’t think it matters if I have had iboga or not, but for her, it was necessary. She is an amazing person, all our patients love her.

I believe that she is an amazing person ;-))
And that makes her qualified to think if it matters or not if YOU had IBO or not? And for her was neccesary? Marc, I think it’s IMPERATIVE for you to have a full dose of IBO!!!

What now? Linette says you don’t have to, I say you have to. Linette took IBO once, I took it more than once (this makes me “more competent”). Linette is your employee (so to speak) and likes her job and wants to keep it (yes, I admit, this is only a speculation), I am independent from you. Who will you listen to?

And more, I think that you’re AFRAID to look inside your head!

Are you?? Or will Linette tell you that it doesn’t matter if you are afraid, or are not??

Look, I won’t get into what you wrote bellow. Not because I am resentful (which I’m not ;-)) but because you don’t understand. I’ll try to explain to you in another way. Perhaps now you won’t try to deal with me the way politicians treat masses – don’t forget that the majority on this list use their own heads;-))

My remarks bellow… I used them to show you that you’re not God, that your point of wiew isn’t wide enough to be one… Can’t you see that it’s not only stupid, but dangerous as well to feel that you know everything, when in effect you haven’t even scratched the surface? Or do you think it’s enoug to own ITH and you can do whatever you want?

And I should be resentful? HA HA HA!!!
I prefer trying to understand this world ;-)))

Anyway, you skiped one important question: Do you know what is inside (what is it composed of) IBO that ITH uses?

Marko

Your remarks that I am indicating below all seem to carry a tone of superiority because you have once ingested ibogaine, yet you really end up confirming what I have said, you just seem resentful that I have said it…

>>>Neither have I. But I did IBO.
Your pot & alco comparison could be different, lets say: when somebody on acid thinks he can fly and throws himself out of window in 15th floor (and there’s no balcony there ;-)) then acid did not in any way cause death. Impact with concrete did.<<<

and this

>>>I agree they are helpful. But I wonder what kind of screening protocol Bwiti have… Just imagine that you’re 12 and you HAVE TO do this, otherwise you’re not “real” man. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?
Or imagine that you’re 33 and you HAVE TO stop drugs, otherwise you’re dead in a few months. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?<<<

and this

>>>Congratulations! You’re the best! Again.

Probably.

Anyway, it makes me wonder how you know ALL screening protocols from EVERYBODY that provides treatments….<<<

and especially when I say this:

+++
I believe if an ordinary person follows our procedures, an individual could very safely have an iboga experience. This insistence that what I am saying is ‘reckless’ sounds to me like the way priesthood’s insist they are the conduit to God, that only they know ‘iboga’s’ true power. That individual autonomy somehow here is dangerous, and that an elite class of practitioners is required.¬† +++

You agree, but resentfully so, with this:

>>>I believe this is about Sacrament of Transition. But, funny enough, the main point in this religion is that individual ingests IBO in order to have a chance to have direct contact with God. Priests only help those individuals. Anyone has right to know IBO’s true power, and everyone gets what God gives him. No middle man. No side interpretations. No bullshit.<<<
So Marko agrees with me completely,
but is resentful nonetheless. Go figure.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Marc,

At 18:54 24.2.2003, you wrote:
No, I haven’t ingested ibogaine, not even a milligram. I don’t believe I qualify for the criteria we have set out at Iboga Thgerapy House, that its to be used for individuals with self-destructive drug dependency problems or individuals with repetitive & self-destructive behaviour patterns. However, one (Linette)¬† of our two permanent facillitators has tried a full dose with remarkable results about four weeks ago.
I used to work with some people who haven’t ingested IBO. Every time we met they wanted me to rise HCl prices. They knew this was a GOOD bussiness! Then they started to place advertising on Internet and in newspapers, something like this: 100% solution to addiction! We use Ibogaine! Call…

I don’t work with them anymore ;-))

Btw, how did you like Linette’s yesterday’s lunch? Was your stomach full?

No one has pointed out how IBOGA extract may be unsafe, how this has been established? Five or six deaths over 35+ years does not indict the Iboga Extract. Those deaths appears to be related to iboga in conjunction with other unhealthy situations. Similar to when pot and alcohol show up in a coroner’s report, the two are in the system, but the cannabis did not in any way cause death. I have not seen a coroner’s report hold iboga or ibogaine responsible for any death.
Neither have I. But I did IBO.
Your pot & alco comparison could be different, lets say: when somebody on acid thinks he can fly and throws himself out of window in 15th floor (and there’s no balcony there ;-)) then acid did not in any way cause death. Impact with concrete did.

20,000 – 50,000 people worldwide must have experienced iboga, iboga extract, Ibogaine HCI in the last 35 years, and I cannot see any evidence in the science or anecdotal evidence that implicates iboga in death or even in serious injury.
My guess is that you underestimate IBO experiences
Evidence? What about Sara’s recent testimony, for example?

Good health screening protocols are very helpful and we certainly do this at ITH.
I agree they are helpful. But I wonder what kind of screening protocol Bwiti have… Just imagine that you’re 12 and you HAVE TO do this, otherwise you’re not “real” man. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?
Or imagine that you’re 33 and you HAVE TO stop drugs, otherwise you’re dead in a few months. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?

In fact, our screening protocol is probably more thorough than any other facility outside of the doctor run facillities in the West Indies, Panama and Mexico.
Congratulations! You’re the best! Again.

Probably.

Anyway, it makes me wonder how you know ALL screening protocols from EVERYBODY that provides treatments….

I believe if an ordinary person follows our procedures, an individual could very safely have an iboga experience. This insistence that what I am saying is ‘reckless’ sounds to me like the way priesthood’s insist they are the conduit to God, that only they know ‘iboga’s’ true power. That individual autonomy somehow here is dangerous, and that an elite class of practitioners is required.
I believe this is about Sacrament of Transition. But, funny enough, the main point in this religion is that individual ingests IBO in order to have a chance to have direct contact with God. Priests only help those individuals. Anyone has right to know IBO’s true power, and everyone gets what God gives him. No middle man. No side interpretations. No bullshit.

I believe if you can get to a place like Iboga Therapy House, thats the best option possibly. But if I were an addicted person far away from a place like ITH, and I had a serious think about iboga, I would find the risk very attractive viz. the potential benefits.
I don’t believe that. Why? It’s very simple: you don’t know what you use. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I assume you don’t have the slightest idea how much of what is in Indra extract!

Or do you?

If you want to find out at least the content of Ibogaine in two Indra samples, then dig into archives of this list (or is that Calyx?)¬† and find my message with lab findings. If you don’t have time to dig, I can tell you: The difference is so big that I decided NOT to use Indra extract, despite lower price!

There are so many unknown things about IBO that I certanly want to keep as much control and predictability as possible.

God does the rest ;-))

Marko

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 3:27:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Of course, we don’t charge anything to our patients, that makes us unique in the world. So as to this,
>>>I used to work with some people who haven’t ingested IBO. Every time we met they wanted me to rise HCl prices. They knew this was a GOOD bussiness! Then they started to place advertising on Internet and in newspapers, something like this: 100% solution to addiction! We use Ibogaine! Call…

I don’t work with them anymore ;-))

I don’t know what you mean. We use HCI for the small daily doses we give the crack cocaine users for 15 – 20 days after a main treatment.

And this you will have to rephrase:

>>>Btw, how did you like Linette’s yesterday’s lunch? Was your stomach full?<<<

Most of our patients, notably the thin or non-obese patients, do not vomit. We give them Gravol (an anti-nauseant) ¬†30 minutes before the main dose. Linette, for example, had a very fine journey, where she was with the Bwiti for quite a spell. Resolved a number of childhood traumas during her experience. Linette doesn’t think it matters if I have had iboga or not, but for her, it was necessary. She is an amazing person, all our patients love her.

Your remarks that I am indicating below all seem to carry a tone of superiority because you have once ingested ibogaine, yet you really end up confirming what I have said, you just seem resentful that I have said it…

>>>Neither have I. But I did IBO.
Your pot & alco comparison could be different, lets say: when somebody on acid thinks he can fly and throws himself out of window in 15th floor (and there’s no balcony there ;-)) then acid did not in any way cause death. Impact with concrete did.<<<

and this

>>>I agree they are helpful. But I wonder what kind of screening protocol Bwiti have… Just imagine that you’re 12 and you HAVE TO do this, otherwise you’re not “real” man. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?
Or imagine that you’re 33 and you HAVE TO stop drugs, otherwise you’re dead in a few months. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?<<<

and this

>>>Congratulations! You’re the best! Again.

Probably.

Anyway, it makes me wonder how you know ALL screening protocols from EVERYBODY that provides treatments….<<<

and especially when I say this:

+++
I believe if an ordinary person follows our procedures, an individual could very safely have an iboga experience. This insistence that what I am saying is ‘reckless’ sounds to me like the way priesthood’s insist they are the conduit to God, that only they know ‘iboga’s’ true power. That individual autonomy somehow here is dangerous, and that an elite class of practitioners is required.¬† +++

You agree, but resentfully so, with this:

>>>I believe this is about Sacrament of Transition. But, funny enough, the main point in this religion is that individual ingests IBO in order to have a chance to have direct contact with God. Priests only help those individuals. Anyone has right to know IBO’s true power, and everyone gets what God gives him. No middle man. No side interpretations. No bullshit.<<<
So Marko agrees with me completely,
but is resentful nonetheless. Go figure.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

 

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Marc,

At 18:54 24.2.2003, you wrote:
No, I haven’t ingested ibogaine, not even a milligram. I don’t believe I qualify for the criteria we have set out at Iboga Thgerapy House, that its to be used for individuals with self-destructive drug dependency problems or individuals with repetitive & self-destructive behaviour patterns. However, one (Linette)¬† of our two permanent facillitators has tried a full dose with remarkable results about four weeks ago.

I used to work with some people who haven’t ingested IBO. Every time we met they wanted me to rise HCl prices. They knew this was a GOOD bussiness! Then they started to place advertising on Internet and in newspapers, something like this: 100% solution to addiction! We use Ibogaine! Call…

I don’t work with them anymore ;-))

Btw, how did you like Linette’s yesterday’s lunch? Was your stomach full?

No one has pointed out how IBOGA extract may be unsafe, how this has been established? Five or six deaths over 35+ years does not indict the Iboga Extract. Those deaths appears to be related to iboga in conjunction with other unhealthy situations. Similar to when pot and alcohol show up in a coroner’s report, the two are in the system, but the cannabis did not in any way cause death. I have not seen a coroner’s report hold iboga or ibogaine responsible for any death.

Neither have I. But I did IBO.
Your pot & alco comparison could be different, lets say: when somebody on acid thinks he can fly and throws himself out of window in 15th floor (and there’s no balcony there ;-)) then acid did not in any way cause death. Impact with concrete did.

20,000 – 50,000 people worldwide must have experienced iboga, iboga extract, Ibogaine HCI in the last 35 years, and I cannot see any evidence in the science or anecdotal evidence that implicates iboga in death or even in serious injury.

My guess is that you underestimate IBO experiences
Evidence? What about Sara’s recent testimony, for example?

Good health screening protocols are very helpful and we certainly do this at ITH.

I agree they are helpful. But I wonder what kind of screening protocol Bwiti have… Just imagine that you’re 12 and you HAVE TO do this, otherwise you’re not “real” man. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?
Or imagine that you’re 33 and you HAVE TO stop drugs, otherwise you’re dead in a few months. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?

In fact, our screening protocol is probably more thorough than any other facility outside of the doctor run facillities in the West Indies, Panama and Mexico.

Congratulations! You’re the best! Again.

Probably.

Anyway, it makes me wonder how you know ALL screening protocols from EVERYBODY that provides treatments….

I believe if an ordinary person follows our procedures, an individual could very safely have an iboga experience. This insistence that what I am saying is ‘reckless’ sounds to me like the way priesthood’s insist they are the conduit to God, that only they know ‘iboga’s’ true power. That individual autonomy somehow here is dangerous, and that an elite class of practitioners is required.

I believe this is about Sacrament of Transition. But, funny enough, the main point in this religion is that individual ingests IBO in order to have a chance to have direct contact with God. Priests only help those individuals. Anyone has right to know IBO’s true power, and everyone gets what God gives him. No middle man. No side interpretations. No bullshit.

I believe if you can get to a place like Iboga Therapy House, thats the best option possibly. But if I were an addicted person far away from a place like ITH, and I had a serious think about iboga, I would find the risk very attractive viz. the potential benefits.

I don’t believe that. Why? It’s very simple: you don’t know what you use. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I assume you don’t have the slightest idea how much of what is in Indra extract!

Or do you?

If you want to find out at least the content of Ibogaine in two Indra samples, then dig into archives of this list (or is that Calyx?)¬† and find my message with lab findings. If you don’t have time to dig, I can tell you: The difference is so big that I decided NOT to use Indra extract, despite lower price!

There are so many unknown things about IBO that I certanly want to keep as much control and predictability as possible.

God does the rest ;-))

Marko

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 3:04:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Neither have I. But I did IBO.
Your pot & alco comparison could be different, lets say: when somebody on
acid thinks he can fly and throws himself out of window in 15th floor (and
there’s no balcony there ;-)) then acid did not in any way cause death.
Impact with concrete did.

I’ve always wondered….why is it that when people are tripping and think they
can fly, they don’t try to take off from the ground?

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 2:13:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marc,

At 18:54 24.2.2003, you wrote:
No, I haven’t ingested ibogaine, not even a milligram. I don’t believe I qualify for the criteria we have set out at Iboga Thgerapy House, that its to be used for individuals with self-destructive drug dependency problems or individuals with repetitive & self-destructive behaviour patterns. However, one (Linette)¬† of our two permanent facillitators has tried a full dose with remarkable results about four weeks ago.

I used to work with some people who haven’t ingested IBO. Every time we met they wanted me to rise HCl prices. They knew this was a GOOD bussiness! Then they started to place advertising on Internet and in newspapers, something like this: 100% solution to addiction! We use Ibogaine! Call…

I don’t work with them anymore ;-))

Btw, how did you like Linette’s yesterday’s lunch? Was your stomach full?

No one has pointed out how IBOGA extract may be unsafe, how this has been established? Five or six deaths over 35+ years does not indict the Iboga Extract. Those deaths appears to be related to iboga in conjunction with other unhealthy situations. Similar to when pot and alcohol show up in a coroner’s report, the two are in the system, but the cannabis did not in any way cause death. I have not seen a coroner’s report hold iboga or ibogaine responsible for any death.

Neither have I. But I did IBO.
Your pot & alco comparison could be different, lets say: when somebody on acid thinks he can fly and throws himself out of window in 15th floor (and there’s no balcony there ;-)) then acid did not in any way cause death. Impact with concrete did.

20,000 – 50,000 people worldwide must have experienced iboga, iboga extract, Ibogaine HCI in the last 35 years, and I cannot see any evidence in the science or anecdotal evidence that implicates iboga in death or even in serious injury.

My guess is that you underestimate IBO experiences
Evidence? What about Sara’s recent testimony, for example?

Good health screening protocols are very helpful and we certainly do this at ITH.

I agree they are helpful. But I wonder what kind of screening protocol Bwiti have… Just imagine that you’re 12 and you HAVE TO do this, otherwise you’re not “real” man. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?
Or imagine that you’re 33 and you HAVE TO stop drugs, otherwise you’re dead in a few months. What can stop you??? What kind of screening protocol?

In fact, our screening protocol is probably more thorough than any other facility outside of the doctor run facillities in the West Indies, Panama and Mexico.

Congratulations! You’re the best! Again.

Probably.

Anyway, it makes me wonder how you know ALL screening protocols from EVERYBODY that provides treatments….

I believe if an ordinary person follows our procedures, an individual could very safely have an iboga experience. This insistence that what I am saying is ‘reckless’ sounds to me like the way priesthood’s insist they are the conduit to God, that only they know ‘iboga’s’ true power. That individual autonomy somehow here is dangerous, and that an elite class of practitioners is required.

I believe this is about Sacrament of Transition. But, funny enough, the main point in this religion is that individual ingests IBO in order to have a chance to have direct contact with God. Priests only help those individuals. Anyone has right to know IBO’s true power, and everyone gets what God gives him. No middle man. No side interpretations. No bullshit.

I believe if you can get to a place like Iboga Therapy House, thats the best option possibly. But if I were an addicted person far away from a place like ITH, and I had a serious think about iboga, I would find the risk very attractive viz. the potential benefits.

I don’t believe that. Why? It’s very simple: you don’t know what you use. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I assume you don’t have the slightest idea how much of what is in Indra extract!

Or do you?

If you want to find out at least the content of Ibogaine in two Indra samples, then dig into archives of this list (or is that Calyx?)¬† and find my message with lab findings. If you don’t have time to dig, I can tell you: The difference is so big that I decided NOT to use Indra extract, despite lower price!

There are so many unknown things about IBO that I certanly want to keep as much control and predictability as possible.

God does the rest ;-))

Marko

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 12:54:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No, I haven’t ingested ibogaine, not even a milligram. I don’t believe I qualify for the criteria we have set out at Iboga Thgerapy House, that its to be used for individuals with self-destructive drug dependency problems or individuals with repetitive & self-destructive behaviour patterns. However, one (Linette) ¬†of our two permanent facillitators has tried a full dose with remarkable results about four weeks ago.

No one has pointed out how IBOGA extract may be unsafe, how this has been established? Five or six deaths over 35+ years does not indict the Iboga Extract. Those deaths appears to be related to iboga in conjunction with other unhealthy situations. Similar to when pot and alcohol show up in a coroner’s report, the two are in the system, but the cannabis did not in any way cause death. I have not seen a coroner’s report hold iboga or ibogaine responsible for any death.

20,000 – 50,000 people worldwide must have experienced iboga, iboga extract, Ibogaine HCI in the last 35 years, and I cannot see any evidence in the science or anecdotal evidence that implicates iboga in death or even in serious injury.

Good health screening protocols are very helpful and we certainly do this at ITH. In fact, our screening protocol is probably more thorough than any other facility outside of the doctor run facillities in the West Indies, Panama and Mexico.

I believe if an ordinary person follows our procedures, an individual could very safely have an iboga experience. This insistence that what I am saying is ‘reckless’ sounds to me like the way priesthood’s insist they are the conduit to God, that only they know ‘iboga’s’ true power. That individual autonomy somehow here is dangerous, and that an elite class of practitioners is required. I believe if you can get to a place like Iboga Therapy House, thats the best option possibly. But if I were an addicted person far away from a place like ITH, and I had a serious think about iboga, I would find the risk very attractive viz. the potential benefits.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House
—– Original Message —–
From: Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

You hit that right on the button Marko!

HAVE YOU EVER INGESTED A FULL DOSE OF IBO YOURSELF MARC?
I AM ALMOST 100% SURE YOU HAVE NOT!
By observing you have not seen the deep revelations.

Under no circumstances should you iterate it is safe for everyone.
Everyone reacts differently, watch the advice you give.

Not trying to be harsh but I know I wouldn’t want to feel responsible for giving bad advice and seeing someone hurt. I should hope you feel the same.

Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
www.ethnogarden.com
ethnogarden@sympatico.ca
Tel: (01)705-735-0540
Fax:(01)705735-4332
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Curtis,

yes, sarcasm, that’s exactly it!

We’ve been through this shit some time ago, when Carl N.W. advertised Indra
Extract (ooops, HIS extract) as the best and oh and ah material to detox.

Now this is repeating. Not only the glorification of Indra (MARC wrote:
“You should use the Indra extract”). I won’t go into why Soren should use
Indra and why not rootbark or HCl or something else… The problem here is
that someone who is experienced (btw, Marc, have you ingested a full dose
of IBO, in any form?) doesn’t give someone new to IBO (who is seeking
deliverance and new life) a quality information, but in fact says : This is
the best for you!

Is it really?

The same thing is with Sara’s post on another list. Let me paste it here
for those who are not subscribed to it:

“I know a man who ended up in the madhouse
After taking Ibo. alone,
He stayed there for a month,
He got the stuff from me; he said he had a sitter,
His health wasn’t so good after all,
If you like to do a treatment on your own, you must know
There are risks which are not worth taking,
You like to take the easy way out but that including a possible nightmare
or panic attack .
Think about it.

Sara”

Now, think about it and read what’s between lines. And see that
one-sidedness of info. Oh, and don’t forget that Soren lives quite close to
Sara! And she is experienced treatment provider and I see that with her
there are no possibilities of possible nightmare or panic attack…

Besides, Marc says: “Ibogaine extract IS inherently safe…” And so is
rootbark. And HCl. But wait – is this true? Can we be 100% sure of what
Marc wrote? Is he entitled to make such statements? What are his
credentials? Where did he get info on this? Were there scientific, medical,
clinical trials on humans (using that inherently safe extract), or were
just some lab experiments on mice and rats (using that inherently safe
extract – or was it IBO base, or HCl, or something else??) I must have
missed this in research papers:¬† “In the 35 year history of documented
iboga extract use…” Marc, can you please let us know where to get these
documents? I’m quite sure that I’m not the only one wanting to study this!

No, Marc, nothing IS inherently safe, not even IBOgaine extract. Nor milk.

Nor life.

And I hope that everyone will as soon as possible understand that IBO is no
fun, that it should be treated with utmost respect. That it can act one way
in one person, and completely another way in another person… even though
it acted the first way in 100 persons… So, Marc, what if Soren doesn’t
get over it?

Henk, it seems, forgot this for a moment ant took IBO too lightly. Haven’t
you learned anything from him????

If you haven’t, then I suggest that all of you make a special URL wich will
advertise your IBO and your way of treating people. You can use BIIIG
words, in many colours, you can even tell the world that you Are THE Only
One In The World Who Knows EVERYTHING About IBO, The ONLY ONE Who Can
Administer It Safely And Efficiently To Whomever Reading….. I’m sure that
Patrick will gladly put this URL in the headers of list E-mail… Or
wouldn’t he?

YOu can be sure that I won’t appear there ;-))

And another thing, regarding use of water when getting IBO down the throat:
Bwiti say “L’eau tue l’Iboga”

But some people, it seems, know better. After all, who the heck are those
Bwiti? What do they know about IBO?? If they knew anything, then THEY would
write about pharmacodynamics of IBOga!!

;-))

Marko

At 04:13 24.2.2003, you wrote:

>I’m going to word what I say carefuly because I don’t want to offend
>anyone by accident and nothing I’m saying has anything to do with the
>skill of doctors from one country or another. I also want to make sure I
>put across what I mean to say, I have to give this more thought then
>others who can write 50 paragraphs without setting off any bombs, hi
>patrick ūüėČ
>
>I think what Marc does is very honorable bro. Not only does he help people
>for free but he gives out and shares his info. I don’t see anyone else
>doing that as has been mentioned here before.
>
>I don’t set out to knock anyone and think everyone should get help in any
>way that is best for them but Marko posted a message that was very
>sarcastic and full of Patrickisms and mindvox quotes ‘FoLloW the yELloW
>BrIcK RoaD’ and mixed upper and lowercase and all this and I don’t know
>what he really meant. What I read was sarcasm.
>
>As someone who dosed ibogaine on my own and am much happier for it I think
>that some of what you are doing is just the pot calling the kettle black.
>Mash may spread FUD about how nobody else knows what they are doing or she
>knows more and maybe she does. But taking this from your own web site, you
>do exactly the same thing.
>
>’There are individuals who advertise on the internet and they might charge
>less for their treatment but you need to be aware that they administer
>treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal training in handling emergencies
>and might be reluctant to take a patient with complications to the ER.’
>
>And followed by a stab as Mash without naming her ‘The Ibogaine
>Association is the most active program with the greatest number of
>patients per month. Our goal is to provide safe treatment in a comfortable
>environment, accessible and at a reasonable price. There are no hidden
>costs with our program. Licensed physicians with extensive experience
>administering ibogaine are constantly present and supervising the
>treatment. Beware of ibogaine treatment centers that talk negatively about
>their colleagues, or use scare tactics to get you into their program. Some
>centers are overly expensive, so listen to what they say with skepticism,
>as the advice from these “experts” will not be objective. There are other
>treatment providers advertising on the Internet who do not administer
>ibogaine under medical supervision. Our main interest is to help as many
>people as possible, by making this new treatment financially reasonable
>and by providing adequate medical care.’
>
>Bro I have no doubt you all want to help people, but you don’t do anything
>different from Mash. You run a business and detox people with ibogaine. If
>a gram costs less then $200, where does the other $3,000 you want for
>treatment go to? Mash can explain where $10,000 or more goes with all the
>people she hires and extra costs she has, but what is it that you do?
>
>I know people who have detoxed with you all, you aren’t putting people on
>heart monitors so how do you even know if something is happening unless
>they tell you?
>
>Telling people that if they do not take ibogaine under medical supervision
>they should not take it, is not right. Warning that they might be better
>off with it is something else. And this message has nothing at all to do
>with doctors from one country or another one, it is written to reply to
>exactly what you said and exactly what you advertise on your web site
>which is by the way the only ibogaine web site running commerical ads.
>
>Peace out,
>Curtis
>
>
>On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:37:35 -0800 Randy Hencken
><randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Marc,
> >
> >I am glad to see you share your advice and experience.  However,
> > I feel that
> >it is irresponsible to assure someone that they “will be OK”.¬† We
> >all know
> >that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence ibo related fatalities.
> > Marko’s
> >posting on the other list is honest.  If you do ibo on your own
> >you are
> >taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh that risk carefully.
> > At the
> >same time, if you are a street drug user you are taking your life
> >into your
> >own hands.  Using street dope is probably equally as dangerous as
> >doing ibo
> >without experience.  But if you re not doing street dope and you
> >are in a
> >treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best to proceed to ibo
> >with
> >patience and caution and to eliminate as many risks as possible.
> >
> >Complications can happen, be willing and prepared to call for emergency
> >help
> >if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under professional care.
> >
> >Randy Hencken
> >Ibogaine Association
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
> >>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >>Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should
> >do
> >>Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800
> >>
> >>You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.
> >>
> >>Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything
> >for the
> >>12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water
> >and herbal
> >>(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee, caffeine-
> >oriented
> >>drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.
> >>
> >>Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should
> >be
> >>covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any
> >burning item
> >>(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during
> >the iboga
> >>experience.
> >>
> >>You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours
> >prior to
> >>test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances
> >not
> >>related to your iboga).
> >>
> >>Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.
> >>
> >>At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
> >>At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly
> >up’,
> >>then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
> >>At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining
> >dose,
> >>in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about
> >8 – 10
> >>capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take
> >those
> >>capsules.
> >>
> >>If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea
> >more
> >>upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate
> >(your
> >>sitters
> >>job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting),
> >the
> >>vomitting
> >>is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most
> >of my
> >>patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially
> >the
> >>crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues
> >are soft
> >>in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high
> >acidity of
> >>the iboga extract.
> >>
> >>You’ll get through it.
> >>
> >>You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your visualization
> >>period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours,
> > thirty
> >>minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise
> >you
> >>will
> >>experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance,
> > and like
> >>sea
> >>sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise
> >you
> >>will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if
> >you have to
> >>move.
> >>
> >>You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not
> >really know
> >>what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while
> >it is
> >>happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72
> >hours, long
> >>after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling
> >of
> >>addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem
> >like a
> >>miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga
> >world
> >>and
> >>unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer
> >addicted,
> >>no
> >>longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions,
> >your main
> >>dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).
> >>
> >>Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.
> >>
> >>Marc Emery
> >>Iboga Therapy House
> >>
> >>—– Original Message —–
> >>From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
> >>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> >>Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Marc
> >> > Thanks for responding to this.
> >> > My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been
> >on 60 mg
> >> > Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
> >> > Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont
> >know how
> >>much
> >> > this will help.
> >> > I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
> >> > Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
> >> > Soren
> >> > —– Original Message —–
> >> > From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
> >> > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> >> > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and
> >drugs used
> >>in
> >> > the
> >> > > last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will
> >tell you
> >>what
> >> > you
> >> > > can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you
> >have
> >>someone
> >> > > who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.
> >> > >
> >> > > Marc Emery
> >> > > Iboga Therapy House
>
>
>
>
>Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
>FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
>
>Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
>https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: “Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.” <ethnogarden@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 9:49:53 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You hit that right on the button Marko!

HAVE YOU EVER INGESTED A FULL DOSE OF IBO YOURSELF MARC?
I AM ALMOST 100% SURE YOU HAVE NOT!
By observing you have not seen the deep revelations.

Under no circumstances should you iterate it is safe for everyone.
Everyone reacts differently, watch the advice you give.

Not trying to be harsh but I know I wouldn’t want to feel responsible for giving bad advice and seeing someone hurt. I should hope you feel the same.

Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
www.ethnogarden.com
ethnogarden@sympatico.ca
Tel: (01)705-735-0540
Fax:(01)705735-4332
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Curtis,

yes, sarcasm, that’s exactly it!

We’ve been through this shit some time ago, when Carl N.W. advertised Indra
Extract (ooops, HIS extract) as the best and oh and ah material to detox.

Now this is repeating. Not only the glorification of Indra (MARC wrote:
“You should use the Indra extract”). I won’t go into why Soren should use
Indra and why not rootbark or HCl or something else… The problem here is
that someone who is experienced (btw, Marc, have you ingested a full dose
of IBO, in any form?) doesn’t give someone new to IBO (who is seeking
deliverance and new life) a quality information, but in fact says : This is
the best for you!

Is it really?

The same thing is with Sara’s post on another list. Let me paste it here
for those who are not subscribed to it:

“I know a man who ended up in the madhouse
After taking Ibo. alone,
He stayed there for a month,
He got the stuff from me; he said he had a sitter,
His health wasn’t so good after all,
If you like to do a treatment on your own, you must know
There are risks which are not worth taking,
You like to take the easy way out but that including a possible nightmare
or panic attack .
Think about it.

Sara”

Now, think about it and read what’s between lines. And see that
one-sidedness of info. Oh, and don’t forget that Soren lives quite close to
Sara! And she is experienced treatment provider and I see that with her
there are no possibilities of possible nightmare or panic attack…

Besides, Marc says: “Ibogaine extract IS inherently safe…” And so is
rootbark. And HCl. But wait – is this true? Can we be 100% sure of what
Marc wrote? Is he entitled to make such statements? What are his
credentials? Where did he get info on this? Were there scientific, medical,
clinical trials on humans (using that inherently safe extract), or were
just some lab experiments on mice and rats (using that inherently safe
extract – or was it IBO base, or HCl, or something else??) I must have
missed this in research papers:¬† “In the 35 year history of documented
iboga extract use…” Marc, can you please let us know where to get these
documents? I’m quite sure that I’m not the only one wanting to study this!

No, Marc, nothing IS inherently safe, not even IBOgaine extract. Nor milk.

Nor life.

And I hope that everyone will as soon as possible understand that IBO is no
fun, that it should be treated with utmost respect. That it can act one way
in one person, and completely another way in another person… even though
it acted the first way in 100 persons… So, Marc, what if Soren doesn’t
get over it?

Henk, it seems, forgot this for a moment ant took IBO too lightly. Haven’t
you learned anything from him????

If you haven’t, then I suggest that all of you make a special URL wich will
advertise your IBO and your way of treating people. You can use BIIIG
words, in many colours, you can even tell the world that you Are THE Only
One In The World Who Knows EVERYTHING About IBO, The ONLY ONE Who Can
Administer It Safely And Efficiently To Whomever Reading….. I’m sure that
Patrick will gladly put this URL in the headers of list E-mail… Or
wouldn’t he?

YOu can be sure that I won’t appear there ;-))

And another thing, regarding use of water when getting IBO down the throat:
Bwiti say “L’eau tue l’Iboga”

But some people, it seems, know better. After all, who the heck are those
Bwiti? What do they know about IBO?? If they knew anything, then THEY would
write about pharmacodynamics of IBOga!!

;-))

Marko

At 04:13 24.2.2003, you wrote:

>I’m going to word what I say carefuly because I don’t want to offend
>anyone by accident and nothing I’m saying has anything to do with the
>skill of doctors from one country or another. I also want to make sure I
>put across what I mean to say, I have to give this more thought then
>others who can write 50 paragraphs without setting off any bombs, hi
>patrick ūüėČ
>
>I think what Marc does is very honorable bro. Not only does he help people
>for free but he gives out and shares his info. I don’t see anyone else
>doing that as has been mentioned here before.
>
>I don’t set out to knock anyone and think everyone should get help in any
>way that is best for them but Marko posted a message that was very
>sarcastic and full of Patrickisms and mindvox quotes ‘FoLloW the yELloW
>BrIcK RoaD’ and mixed upper and lowercase and all this and I don’t know
>what he really meant. What I read was sarcasm.
>
>As someone who dosed ibogaine on my own and am much happier for it I think
>that some of what you are doing is just the pot calling the kettle black.
>Mash may spread FUD about how nobody else knows what they are doing or she
>knows more and maybe she does. But taking this from your own web site, you
>do exactly the same thing.
>
>’There are individuals who advertise on the internet and they might charge
>less for their treatment but you need to be aware that they administer
>treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal training in handling emergencies
>and might be reluctant to take a patient with complications to the ER.’
>
>And followed by a stab as Mash without naming her ‘The Ibogaine
>Association is the most active program with the greatest number of
>patients per month. Our goal is to provide safe treatment in a comfortable
>environment, accessible and at a reasonable price. There are no hidden
>costs with our program. Licensed physicians with extensive experience
>administering ibogaine are constantly present and supervising the
>treatment. Beware of ibogaine treatment centers that talk negatively about
>their colleagues, or use scare tactics to get you into their program. Some
>centers are overly expensive, so listen to what they say with skepticism,
>as the advice from these “experts” will not be objective. There are other
>treatment providers advertising on the Internet who do not administer
>ibogaine under medical supervision. Our main interest is to help as many
>people as possible, by making this new treatment financially reasonable
>and by providing adequate medical care.’
>
>Bro I have no doubt you all want to help people, but you don’t do anything
>different from Mash. You run a business and detox people with ibogaine. If
>a gram costs less then $200, where does the other $3,000 you want for
>treatment go to? Mash can explain where $10,000 or more goes with all the
>people she hires and extra costs she has, but what is it that you do?
>
>I know people who have detoxed with you all, you aren’t putting people on
>heart monitors so how do you even know if something is happening unless
>they tell you?
>
>Telling people that if they do not take ibogaine under medical supervision
>they should not take it, is not right. Warning that they might be better
>off with it is something else. And this message has nothing at all to do
>with doctors from one country or another one, it is written to reply to
>exactly what you said and exactly what you advertise on your web site
>which is by the way the only ibogaine web site running commerical ads.
>
>Peace out,
>Curtis
>
>
>On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:37:35 -0800 Randy Hencken
><randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Marc,
> >
> >I am glad to see you share your advice and experience.  However,
> > I feel that
> >it is irresponsible to assure someone that they “will be OK”.¬† We
> >all know
> >that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence ibo related fatalities.
> > Marko’s
> >posting on the other list is honest.  If you do ibo on your own
> >you are
> >taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh that risk carefully.
> > At the
> >same time, if you are a street drug user you are taking your life
> >into your
> >own hands.  Using street dope is probably equally as dangerous as
> >doing ibo
> >without experience.  But if you re not doing street dope and you
> >are in a
> >treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best to proceed to ibo
> >with
> >patience and caution and to eliminate as many risks as possible.
> >
> >Complications can happen, be willing and prepared to call for emergency
> >help
> >if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under professional care.
> >
> >Randy Hencken
> >Ibogaine Association
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
> >>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >>Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should
> >do
> >>Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800
> >>
> >>You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.
> >>
> >>Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything
> >for the
> >>12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water
> >and herbal
> >>(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee, caffeine-
> >oriented
> >>drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.
> >>
> >>Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should
> >be
> >>covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any
> >burning item
> >>(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during
> >the iboga
> >>experience.
> >>
> >>You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours
> >prior to
> >>test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances
> >not
> >>related to your iboga).
> >>
> >>Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.
> >>
> >>At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
> >>At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly
> >up’,
> >>then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
> >>At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining
> >dose,
> >>in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about
> >8 – 10
> >>capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take
> >those
> >>capsules.
> >>
> >>If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea
> >more
> >>upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate
> >(your
> >>sitters
> >>job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting),
> >the
> >>vomitting
> >>is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most
> >of my
> >>patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially
> >the
> >>crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues
> >are soft
> >>in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high
> >acidity of
> >>the iboga extract.
> >>
> >>You’ll get through it.
> >>
> >>You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your visualization
> >>period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours,
> > thirty
> >>minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise
> >you
> >>will
> >>experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance,
> > and like
> >>sea
> >>sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise
> >you
> >>will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if
> >you have to
> >>move.
> >>
> >>You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not
> >really know
> >>what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while
> >it is
> >>happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72
> >hours, long
> >>after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling
> >of
> >>addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem
> >like a
> >>miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga
> >world
> >>and
> >>unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer
> >addicted,
> >>no
> >>longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions,
> >your main
> >>dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).
> >>
> >>Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.
> >>
> >>Marc Emery
> >>Iboga Therapy House
> >>
> >>—– Original Message —–
> >>From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
> >>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> >>Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Marc
> >> > Thanks for responding to this.
> >> > My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been
> >on 60 mg
> >> > Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
> >> > Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont
> >know how
> >>much
> >> > this will help.
> >> > I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
> >> > Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
> >> > Soren
> >> > —– Original Message —–
> >> > From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
> >> > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> >> > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and
> >drugs used
> >>in
> >> > the
> >> > > last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will
> >tell you
> >>what
> >> > you
> >> > > can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you
> >have
> >>someone
> >> > > who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.
> >> > >
> >> > > Marc Emery
> >> > > Iboga Therapy House
>
>
>
>
>Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
>FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
>
>Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
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From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 8:52:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Curtis,

yes, sarcasm, that’s exactly it!

We’ve been through this shit some time ago, when Carl N.W. advertised Indra Extract (ooops, HIS extract) as the best and oh and ah material to detox.

Now this is repeating. Not only the glorification of Indra (MARC wrote: “You should use the Indra extract”). I won’t go into why Soren should use Indra and why not rootbark or HCl or something else… The problem here is that someone who is experienced (btw, Marc, have you ingested a full dose of IBO, in any form?) doesn’t give someone new to IBO (who is seeking deliverance and new life) a quality information, but in fact says : This is the best for you!

Is it really?

The same thing is with Sara’s post on another list. Let me paste it here for those who are not subscribed to it:

“I know a man who ended up in the madhouse
After taking Ibo. alone,
He stayed there for a month,
He got the stuff from me; he said he had a sitter,
His health wasn’t so good after all,
If you like to do a treatment on your own, you must know
There are risks which are not worth taking,
You like to take the easy way out but that including a possible nightmare or panic attack .
Think about it.

Sara”

Now, think about it and read what’s between lines. And see that one-sidedness of info. Oh, and don’t forget that Soren lives quite close to Sara! And she is experienced treatment provider and I see that with her there are no possibilities of possible nightmare or panic attack…

Besides, Marc says: “Ibogaine extract IS inherently safe…” And so is rootbark. And HCl. But wait – is this true? Can we be 100% sure of what Marc wrote? Is he entitled to make such statements? What are his credentials? Where did he get info on this? Were there scientific, medical, clinical trials on humans (using that inherently safe extract), or were just some lab experiments on mice and rats (using that inherently safe extract – or was it IBO base, or HCl, or something else??) I must have missed this in research papers: ¬†“In the 35 year history of documented iboga extract use…” Marc, can you please let us know where to get these documents? I’m quite sure that I’m not the only one wanting to study this!

No, Marc, nothing IS inherently safe, not even IBOgaine extract. Nor milk.

Nor life.

And I hope that everyone will as soon as possible understand that IBO is no fun, that it should be treated with utmost respect. That it can act one way in one person, and completely another way in another person… even though it acted the first way in 100 persons… So, Marc, what if Soren doesn’t get over it?

Henk, it seems, forgot this for a moment ant took IBO too lightly. Haven’t you learned anything from him????

If you haven’t, then I suggest that all of you make a special URL wich will advertise your IBO and your way of treating people. You can use BIIIG words, in many colours, you can even tell the world that you Are THE Only One In The World Who Knows EVERYTHING About IBO, The ONLY ONE Who Can Administer It Safely And Efficiently To Whomever Reading….. I’m sure that Patrick will gladly put this URL in the headers of list E-mail… Or wouldn’t he?

YOu can be sure that I won’t appear there ;-))

And another thing, regarding use of water when getting IBO down the throat: Bwiti say “L’eau tue l’Iboga”

But some people, it seems, know better. After all, who the heck are those Bwiti? What do they know about IBO?? If they knew anything, then THEY would write about pharmacodynamics of IBOga!!

;-))

Marko

At 04:13 24.2.2003, you wrote:

I’m going to word what I say carefuly because I don’t want to offend anyone by accident and nothing I’m saying has anything to do with the skill of doctors from one country or another. I also want to make sure I put across what I mean to say, I have to give this more thought then others who can write 50 paragraphs without setting off any bombs, hi patrick ūüėČ

I think what Marc does is very honorable bro. Not only does he help people for free but he gives out and shares his info. I don’t see anyone else doing that as has been mentioned here before.

I don’t set out to knock anyone and think everyone should get help in any way that is best for them but Marko posted a message that was very sarcastic and full of Patrickisms and mindvox quotes ‘FoLloW the yELloW BrIcK RoaD’ and mixed upper and lowercase and all this and I don’t know what he really meant. What I read was sarcasm.

As someone who dosed ibogaine on my own and am much happier for it I think that some of what you are doing is just the pot calling the kettle black. Mash may spread FUD about how nobody else knows what they are doing or she knows more and maybe she does. But taking this from your own web site, you do exactly the same thing.

‘There are individuals who advertise on the internet and they might charge less for their treatment but you need to be aware that they administer treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal training in handling emergencies and might be reluctant to take a patient with complications to the ER.’

And followed by a stab as Mash without naming her ‘The Ibogaine Association is the most active program with the greatest number of patients per month. Our goal is to provide safe treatment in a comfortable environment, accessible and at a reasonable price. There are no hidden costs with our program. Licensed physicians with extensive experience administering ibogaine are constantly present and supervising the treatment. Beware of ibogaine treatment centers that talk negatively about their colleagues, or use scare tactics to get you into their program. Some centers are overly expensive, so listen to what they say with skepticism, as the advice from these “experts” will not be objective. There are other treatment providers advertising on the Internet who do not administer ibogaine under medical supervision. Our main interest is to help as many people as possible, by making this new treatment financially reasonable and by providing adequate medical care.’

Bro I have no doubt you all want to help people, but you don’t do anything different from Mash. You run a business and detox people with ibogaine. If a gram costs less then $200, where does the other $3,000 you want for treatment go to? Mash can explain where $10,000 or more goes with all the people she hires and extra costs she has, but what is it that you do?

I know people who have detoxed with you all, you aren’t putting people on heart monitors so how do you even know if something is happening unless they tell you?

Telling people that if they do not take ibogaine under medical supervision they should not take it, is not right. Warning that they might be better off with it is something else. And this message has nothing at all to do with doctors from one country or another one, it is written to reply to exactly what you said and exactly what you advertise on your web site which is by the way the only ibogaine web site running commerical ads.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:37:35 -0800 Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Marc,
>
>I am glad to see you share your advice and experience.  However,
> I feel that
>it is irresponsible to assure someone that they “will be OK”. ¬†We
>all know
>that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence ibo related fatalities.
> Marko’s
>posting on the other list is honest.  If you do ibo on your own
>you are
>taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh that risk carefully.
> At the
>same time, if you are a street drug user you are taking your life
>into your
>own hands.  Using street dope is probably equally as dangerous as
>doing ibo
>without experience.  But if you re not doing street dope and you
>are in a
>treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best to proceed to ibo
>with
>patience and caution and to eliminate as many risks as possible.
>
>Complications can happen, be willing and prepared to call for emergency
>help
>if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under professional care.
>
>Randy Hencken
>Ibogaine Association
>
>
>
>
>>From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
>>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>>Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should
>do
>>Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800
>>
>>You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.
>>
>>Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything
>for the
>>12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water
>and herbal
>>(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee, caffeine-
>oriented
>>drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.
>>
>>Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should
>be
>>covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any
>burning item
>>(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during
>the iboga
>>experience.
>>
>>You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours
>prior to
>>test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances
>not
>>related to your iboga).
>>
>>Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.
>>
>>At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
>>At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly
>up’,
>>then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
>>At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining
>dose,
>>in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about
>8 – 10
>>capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take
>those
>>capsules.
>>
>>If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea
>more
>>upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate
>(your
>>sitters
>>job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting),
>the
>>vomitting
>>is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most
>of my
>>patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially
>the
>>crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues
>are soft
>>in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high
>acidity of
>>the iboga extract.
>>
>>You’ll get through it.
>>
>>You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your visualization
>>period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours,
> thirty
>>minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise
>you
>>will
>>experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance,
> and like
>>sea
>>sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise
>you
>>will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if
>you have to
>>move.
>>
>>You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not
>really know
>>what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while
>it is
>>happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72
>hours, long
>>after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling
>of
>>addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem
>like a
>>miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga
>world
>>and
>>unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer
>addicted,
>>no
>>longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions,
>your main
>>dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).
>>
>>Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.
>>
>>Marc Emery
>>Iboga Therapy House
>>
>>—– Original Message —–
>>From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
>>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>>Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
>>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc
>>
>>
>> > Hi Marc
>> > Thanks for responding to this.
>> > My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been
>on 60 mg
>> > Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
>> > Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont
>know how
>>much
>> > this will help.
>> > I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
>> > Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
>> > Soren
>> > —– Original Message —–
>> > From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
>> > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>> > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
>> >
>> >
>> > > Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and
>drugs used
>>in
>> > the
>> > > last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will
>tell you
>>what
>> > you
>> > > can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you
>have
>>someone
>> > > who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.
>> > >
>> > > Marc Emery
>> > > Iboga Therapy House

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: “Allison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 24, 2003 at 3:53:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for that Howard.  Has satisfied my nosiness.  Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

In a message dated 2/23/03 6:37:59 AM, aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz writes:

Also… just by the way can Howard tell me why he calls himself lots
of….
just out of interest or if its personal he can always tell me to mind my
own business and I won’t be offended. ¬†¬†¬†Thanks Allison

Hi Allison,

Lotsof is one Ellis island version of my familiy’s name. ¬†Other versions
are
Lotsoff, Lotzof and I think there may be a few others floating around.

Howard (Lotsof)

Howard

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 1:47:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Randy, what you are saying is simply not true. Ibogaine extract is very
safe, if you get a blood test and confirm your liver (which metabolizes the
ibogaine) is healthy.

Ibogaine extract IS inherently safe, it is extenuating circumstances that
radically increase risk. In the 35 year history of documented iboga extract
use, I am not convinced iboga has ever been indicated as potentially fatal.
Now if someone injects heroin into their arm 4 hours later, thats dangerous,
but that does not implicate the iboga as dangerous.

REPEAT! You are not taking your life into your hands in any dangerous or
hazardous way if you follow good health protocols. Heart rates, in my
experience, do not change (we take a pulse every 30 minutes, it never
varies). If the patient does not eat for 12 hours prior, there is little
chance of choking on vomit. If the patient’s sitter prevents any intake of
illicit drugs, there is no attenuting circumstances of overdose. If the
patient is hydrated and continues to hydrate, the liver will rapidly
detoxify the metabolizing iboga extract.

I see no evidence in any scientific literature to account for any fatality
as a result of careful use of iboga, or any paralysis, toxic shock,
anaflectic shock, etc.

Using street heroin, methadone, cocaine, meth, etc. is WAY, WAY more
dangerous than careful use of iboga extract, which is not dangerous at all.
I have no information or any empirical evidence (at this point, I have
treated more people in North America excepting possibly Deborah Mash)
indicating that any complications can arise. You may offer information that
contradicts that, but I have never seen it in print or in person.

All patients I have treated are significantly improved in every relevent
area in their life. That’s what I know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

Marc,

I am glad to see you share your advice and experience.  However, I feel
that
it is irresponsible to assure someone that they “will be OK”. ¬†We all know
that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence ibo related fatalities.
Marko’s
posting on the other list is honest.  If you do ibo on your own you are
taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh that risk carefully.  At the
same time, if you are a street drug user you are taking your life into
your
own hands.  Using street dope is probably equally as dangerous as doing
ibo
without experience.  But if you re not doing street dope and you are in a
treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best to proceed to ibo with
patience and caution and to eliminate as many risks as possible.
Complications can happen, be willing and prepared to call for emergency
help
if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under professional care.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything for
the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water and
herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee, caffeine-oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any burning
item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during the iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours prior to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining
dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about 8 –
10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate (your
sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting), the
vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues are
soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high acidity
of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours, thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise you
will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance, and like
sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise you
will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if you have
to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not really
know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while it is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72 hours,
long
after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem like a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga world
and
unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer addicted,
no
longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions, your main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been on 60
mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont know how
much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and drugs
used
in
the
last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will tell you
what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you have
someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Hi Dana

Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,that¬īs not the
problem.

In the start it was my intention,to do just what you suggest,buy
some
Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that the
“sitter”
had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do
it!!)

I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b in
the
late
seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never
sick.(flu,cold
and
so),so I think my immune system is good.
Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with maybe
500mg
Ibo
HCL?
This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and
what
I
could
expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?

Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate it.:o)
Kind regards
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I can¬īt
get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico
and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though, not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 24, 2003 at 12:14:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Beware of ibogaine treatment centers that talk negatively
about their colleagues, or use scare tactics to get you into their program.

This is so self-referential that it is poetic.

The novelty of modest capitalism in the ibogaine community…

Bill Ross

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 23, 2003 at 10:19:54 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

what side of Canada are you on Marc? East or West coast? You’re out West,
right?
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: MARC
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:02 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything for the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water and herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee, caffeine-oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any burning item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during the iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours prior to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about 8 – 10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate (your sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting), the vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues are soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high acidity of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours, thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise you will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance, and like sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise you
will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if you have to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not really know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while it is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72 hours, long
after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem like a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga world and
unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer addicted, no
longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions, your main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been on 60 mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont know how much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and drugs used in
the
last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will tell you what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you have
someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Hi Dana

Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,that¬īs not the
problem.

In the start it was my intention,to do just what you suggest,buy some
Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that the
“sitter”
had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do it!!)

I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b in the
late
seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never sick.(flu,cold
and
so),so I think my immune system is good.
Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with maybe
500mg
Ibo
HCL?
This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and what I
could
expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?

Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate it.:o)
Kind regards
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I can¬īt get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though, not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 23, 2003 at 10:32:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Right on bro, that is awesome! Thanks Marc.

And Patrick I must ask, where does that kikoman commercial come from, where do you find this? A superhero on steroids in red galoshes, he cures baldness, fights other superheroes, gets in bed with a little girl, feeds a cat the cat likes him and then he hangs the cat, he smokes cigarettes. I must say this is high art. In america it would take a budget of $40 million and much drugs to produce this. Didn’t understand one piece of it but it’s a home run with everyone I’ve shown it to ūüėČ

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 12:03:41 -0800 MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Here is how we are adapting to the current environment. We are buying
a full
page ad in Montgomery, Alabama to draw attention to shocking sentences
that
marijuana and other drug users in Alabama receive (sunday, March
1).
However, across the top of the full page it starts like this:

“ATTENTION: ALL PATRIOTIC AMERICANS”

AS our men and women of the American armed forces embark on a mission
to
liberate the oppressed people of Iraq, the job of protecting liberty
and
decency on the home front cannot be neglected. All of us have a
responsibility to see that the Bill of Rights and our dear Constitution
is
applied to all Americans in time of peace and war. This is also
what our
soldiers abroad represent, the decency and liberty extended to the
worldwide
family of mankind based on the American traditions of liberty and
tolerance.
Consider then what is happening in Alabama today…

—– Original Message —–
From: <crownofthorns@hushmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

Patrick, you’re alive! ūüėČ How’s it going bro, long time no brilliant
comments. What no thoughts on iraq?

Peace out,
Curtis

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:53:19 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Feb 20, 2003 at 11:30:21PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com]
wrote:

| First, Indra.dk vanishes.
| So, home come http://ibogaine.co.uk/ is down??
| Who is next?

Uhm… ¬†Nick is in India right now. ¬†And quite possibly hasn’t
noticed
that he forgot to renew his domain. ¬†Doing a whois, it doesn’t
exist
anymore.

The ensim thing appears to have snapped up the domain.

I’m gonna try to find Nick and, mention this or sumthin…

Patrick

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From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 23, 2003 at 10:13:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m going to word what I say carefuly because I don’t want to offend anyone by accident and nothing I’m saying has anything to do with the skill of doctors from one country or another. I also want to make sure I put across what I mean to say, I have to give this more thought then others who can write 50 paragraphs without setting off any bombs, hi patrick ūüėČ

I think what Marc does is very honorable bro. Not only does he help people for free but he gives out and shares his info. I don’t see anyone else doing that as has been mentioned here before.

I don’t set out to knock anyone and think everyone should get help in any way that is best for them but Marko posted a message that was very sarcastic and full of Patrickisms and mindvox quotes ‘FoLloW the yELloW BrIcK RoaD’ and mixed upper and lowercase and all this and I don’t know what he really meant. What I read was sarcasm.

As someone who dosed ibogaine on my own and am much happier for it I think that some of what you are doing is just the pot calling the kettle black. Mash may spread FUD about how nobody else knows what they are doing or she knows more and maybe she does. But taking this from your own web site, you do exactly the same thing.

‘There are individuals who advertise on the internet and they might charge less for their treatment but you need to be aware that they administer treatment in hotel rooms, have no formal training in handling emergencies and might be reluctant to take a patient with complications to the ER.’

And followed by a stab as Mash without naming her ‘The Ibogaine Association is the most active program with the greatest number of patients per month. Our goal is to provide safe treatment in a comfortable environment, accessible and at a reasonable price. There are no hidden costs with our program. Licensed physicians with extensive experience administering ibogaine are constantly present and supervising the treatment. Beware of ibogaine treatment centers that talk negatively about their colleagues, or use scare tactics to get you into their program. Some centers are overly expensive, so listen to what they say with skepticism, as the advice from these “experts” will not be objective. There are other treatment providers advertising on the Internet who do not administer ibogaine under medical supervision. Our main interest is to help as many people as possible, by making this new treatment financially reasonable and by providing adequate medical care.’

Bro I have no doubt you all want to help people, but you don’t do anything different from Mash. You run a business and detox people with ibogaine. If a gram costs less then $200, where does the other $3,000 you want for treatment go to? Mash can explain where $10,000 or more goes with all the people she hires and extra costs she has, but what is it that you do?

I know people who have detoxed with you all, you aren’t putting people on heart monitors so how do you even know if something is happening unless they tell you?

Telling people that if they do not take ibogaine under medical supervision they should not take it, is not right. Warning that they might be better off with it is something else. And this message has nothing at all to do with doctors from one country or another one, it is written to reply to exactly what you said and exactly what you advertise on your web site which is by the way the only ibogaine web site running commerical ads.

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:37:35 -0800 Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
Marc,

I am glad to see you share your advice and experience.  However,
I feel that
it is irresponsible to assure someone that they “will be OK”. ¬†We
all know
that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence ibo related fatalities.
Marko’s
posting on the other list is honest.  If you do ibo on your own
you are
taking your life into your own hands.  Weigh that risk carefully.
At the
same time, if you are a street drug user you are taking your life
into your
own hands.  Using street dope is probably equally as dangerous as
doing ibo
without experience.  But if you re not doing street dope and you
are in a
treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best to proceed to ibo
with
patience and caution and to eliminate as many risks as possible.

Complications can happen, be willing and prepared to call for emergency
help
if necessary.  Better yet do ibo under professional care.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should
do
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything
for the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water
and herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee, caffeine-
oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should
be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any
burning item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during
the iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours
prior to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances
not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly
up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining
dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about
8 – 10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take
those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea
more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate
(your
sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting),
the
vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most
of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially
the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues
are soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high
acidity of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours,
thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise
you
will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance,
and like
sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise
you
will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if
you have to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not
really know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while
it is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72
hours, long
after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling
of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem
like a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga
world
and
unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer
addicted,
no
longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions,
your main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been
on 60 mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont
know how
much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and
drugs used
in
the
last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will
tell you
what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you
have
someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 23, 2003 at 9:37:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marc,

I am glad to see you share your advice and experience. ¬†However, I feel that it is irresponsible to assure someone that they “will be OK”. ¬†We all know that ibogaine is not inherently safe, hence ibo related fatalities. ¬†Marko’s posting on the other list is honest. ¬†If you do ibo on your own you are taking your life into your own hands. ¬†Weigh that risk carefully. ¬†At the same time, if you are a street drug user you are taking your life into your own hands. ¬†Using street dope is probably equally as dangerous as doing ibo without experience. ¬†But if you re not doing street dope and you are in a treatment program (i.e. methadone) it is best to proceed to ibo with patience and caution and to eliminate as many risks as possible. ¬†Complications can happen, be willing and prepared to call for emergency help if necessary. ¬†Better yet do ibo under professional care.

Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:02:31 -0800

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything for the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water and herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee, caffeine-oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any burning item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during the iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours prior to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about 8 – 10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate (your sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting), the vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues are soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high acidity of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours, thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise you will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance, and like sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise you
will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if you have to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not really know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while it is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72 hours, long
after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem like a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga world and
unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer addicted, no
longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions, your main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

> Hi Marc
> Thanks for responding to this.
> My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been on 60 mg
> Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
> Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont know how much
> this will help.
> I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
> Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
> Soren
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
>
>
> > Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and drugs used in
> the
> > last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will tell you what
> you
> > can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you have
someone
> > who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.
> >
> > Marc Emery
> > Iboga Therapy House
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
> > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:41 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
> >
> >
> > > Hi Dana
> > >
> > > Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,thatńęs not the
> > problem.
> > >
> > > In the start it was my intention,to do just what you suggest,buy some
> > > Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
> > > But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that the
> “sitter”
> > > had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do it!!)
> > >
> > > I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b in the
> late
> > > seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never sick.(flu,cold
and
> > > so),so I think my immune system is good.
> > > Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with maybe
500mg
> > Ibo
> > > HCL?
> > > This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and what I
> > could
> > > expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate it.:o)
> > > Kind regards
> > > Soren
> > > —– Original Message —–
> > > From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
> > > To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
> > > Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
> > > Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
> > >
> > >
> > > >My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
> > > >I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
> > > >mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
> > > >I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain cure
> > > >here in Europe?(or another place)..
> > > >
> > > >I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I canńęt get
> > > >in contact with her now.
> > > >
> > > >I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking Opiates.I
> > > >hate that drug,especially Methadone.Itńęs a chemical jail for me.
> > > >
> > > >My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico and
> > > >Panama,but I simply canńęt afford that.Damn it.
> > > >
> > > >I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful forever.
> > > >THANKS.
> > > >
> > > >Sincerely
> > > >Soren
> > >
> > > Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
> > > www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…
> > >
> > > Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
> > > small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start to
> > > “brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though, not
> > > the Indra.
> > >
> > > Dana/cnw
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] If you dose yourself, here is what you should do
Date: February 23, 2003 at 9:02:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You should take 4,500 – 5,000 mg of INDRA extract.

Take a 300 mg. test dose in gel cap at hour 0. Do not eat anything for the
12 hours previous to taking the test dose. Drink plenty of water and herbal
(but not green or black tea, and certainly not coffee, caffeine-oriented
drinks, or alcohol) tea in the 12 hours prior to the test dose.

Have a bedroom to lie down in, completely dark. All windows should be
covered. Get comfortable pajamas on. DO NOT USE incense or any burning item
(no fireplaces, candles, frying foods, etc.) at anytime during the iboga
experience.

You cannot fix, use or take any drug whatsoever for the 24 hours prior to
test dose (excepting insulin and essential non-addictive substances not
related to your iboga).

Have a bottle of water at your side with a mouth sized opening.

At 0 hour plus 30 minutes, take 100 mg. of Gravol.
At one hour, if you feel normal, comfortable, and feeling ‘slightly up’,
then the test dose confirms you have no bad reaction from the liver.
At one hour, ten minutes, take a series of gel caps for the remaining dose,
in your case 5,000 mg., so the remaining dose is 4,700 mg, in about 8 – 10
capsules. Drink at least one and a half glasses of water to take those
capsules.

If you are overweight and you eat crap alot, you will have nausea more
upsetting than a thin, wiry person, but as long as you hydrate (your sitters
job is to browbeat you into drinking water after a vomitting), the vomitting
is not a negative, it just is, and its part of your detox. Most of my
patients don’t throw up after Gravol, but the big guys do, especially the
crack cocaine users. You are probable OK, but your stomach tissues are soft
in all likelihood, so you are more likely to respond to the high acidity of
the iboga extract.

You’ll get through it.

You’ll need to get up and pee about 2 – 6 times during your visualization
period, which will begin at Zero Hour (test dose) plus Two hours, thirty
minutes. You must get up like a robot, a very slow robot, otherwise you will
experience ataxia, which, your body is going to be off balance, and like sea
sickness, the motion of your head should be stiff and slow, otherwise you
will bring on further nausea. This is important, MOVE SLOWLY if you have to
move.

You will visualize for 6 – 30 hours. You may, at the time, not really know
what the hell is going on, you won’t be able to talk about it while it is
happening, in fact, it will only start to be clear in about 72 hours, long
after visualization has passed. However, your withdrawl and feeling of
addiction will be over at ZERO hour plus three hours. It will seem like a
miracle to anyone observing, but you will be deeply into the iboga world and
unaware of those earthbound things, even that you are no longer addicted, no
longer going through withdrawl (if you follow my instructions, your main
dose begins after you are aware of opiate withdrawl happening).

Anything more I can tell you, if you would like to know.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been on 60 mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont know how much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and drugs used in
the
last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will tell you what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you have
someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Hi Dana

Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,that¬īs not the
problem.

In the start it was my intention,to do just what you suggest,buy some
Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that the
“sitter”
had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do it!!)

I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b in the
late
seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never sick.(flu,cold
and
so),so I think my immune system is good.
Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with maybe
500mg
Ibo
HCL?
This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and what I
could
expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?

Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate it.:o)
Kind regards
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I can¬īt get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though, not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

From: S√łren L√łvfelt <isl46726@image.dk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re:Marc
Date: February 23, 2003 at 6:04:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Marc
Thanks for responding to this.
My bodywight is about 85 kilo,and the last 2 months,I have been on 60 mg
Methadone,and some Oxycodone,100-200 mg a day,and 10 mg Valium.
Thank God I went down from 100 mg Methadone,to 60,but I dont know how much
this will help.
I know Methadone is a different animal than say Heroin.
Thanks for your help Marc.:o)
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and drugs used in
the
last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will tell you what
you
can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you have someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Hi Dana

Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,that¬īs not the
problem.

In the start it was my intention,to do just what you suggest,buy some
Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that the
“sitter”
had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do it!!)

I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b in the
late
seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never sick.(flu,cold and
so),so I think my immune system is good.
Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with maybe 500mg
Ibo
HCL?
This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and what I
could
expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?

Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate it.:o)
Kind regards
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I can¬īt get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though, not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
Date: February 23, 2003 at 3:47:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Soren, give me your body weight, frequency of drug use and drugs used in the
last two months. You should use the Indra extract. I will tell you what you
can expect. An experienced sitter would be great, but if you have someone
who knows what to expect, who is alert, you will be OK.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

Hi Dana

Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,that¬īs not the
problem.

In the start it was my intention,to do just what you suggest,buy some
Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that the “sitter”
had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do it!!)

I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b in the late
seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never sick.(flu,cold and
so),so I think my immune system is good.
Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with maybe 500mg
Ibo
HCL?
This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and what I
could
expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?

Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate it.:o)
Kind regards
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I can¬īt get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though, not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 23, 2003 at 3:03:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Here is how we are adapting to the current environment. We are buying a full
page ad in Montgomery, Alabama to draw attention to shocking sentences that
marijuana and other drug users in Alabama receive (sunday, March 1).
However, across the top of the full page it starts like this:

“ATTENTION: ALL PATRIOTIC AMERICANS”

AS our men and women of the American armed forces embark on a mission to
liberate the oppressed people of Iraq, the job of protecting liberty and
decency on the home front cannot be neglected. All of us have a
responsibility to see that the Bill of Rights and our dear Constitution is
applied to all Americans in time of peace and war. This is also what our
soldiers abroad represent, the decency and liberty extended to the worldwide
family of mankind based on the American traditions of liberty and tolerance.
Consider then what is happening in Alabama today…

—– Original Message —–
From: <crownofthorns@hushmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

Patrick, you’re alive! ūüėČ How’s it going bro, long time no brilliant
comments. What no thoughts on iraq?

Peace out,
Curtis

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:53:19 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Feb 20, 2003 at 11:30:21PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| First, Indra.dk vanishes.
| So, home come http://ibogaine.co.uk/ is down??
| Who is next?

Uhm… ¬†Nick is in India right now. ¬†And quite possibly hasn’t noticed
that he forgot to renew his domain. ¬†Doing a whois, it doesn’t exist
anymore.

The ensim thing appears to have snapped up the domain.

I’m gonna try to find Nick and, mention this or sumthin…

Patrick

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] brade down??
Date: February 23, 2003 at 2:01:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana,

what is “brade down”? What is the meaning of these words??

Marko

That’s Mashspeak. Normally Ibogaine slows the heart somewhat. In rare
cases, this effect can be severe–bradycardia. I have spoken to
paraclinicians (in this case an R.N.) who’ve had to administer CPR.
It worked–but it is important to note that it was a female oxycontin
addict with an undisclosed history of seizures. And this was on only
600 mg. total bodyweight.

The good thing is that Ibogaine blocks ischemia–so that you have
this automatic anti-stroke effect working at the same time that
should stop damage from reduced flow of oxygen. How long you could
keep some one in suspended animation–and bring them back
unharmed–is a good question

Dana/cnw

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: [ibogaine] brade down??
Date: February 23, 2003 at 1:07:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana,

what is “brade down”? What is the meaning of these words??

Marko

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 23, 2003 at 11:54:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/23/03 6:37:59 AM, aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz writes:

Also… just by the way can Howard tell me why he calls himself lots of….
just out of interest or if its personal he can always tell me to mind my
own business and I won’t be offended. ¬†¬†¬†Thanks Allison

Hi Allison,

Lotsof is one Ellis island version of my familiy’s name. ¬†Other versions are
Lotsoff, Lotzof and I think there may be a few others floating around.

Howard (Lotsof)

Howard

From: S√łren L√łvfelt <isl46726@image.dk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
Date: February 23, 2003 at 11:41:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Dana

Thanks very much for your answer.I CAN get Ibo here,that¬īs not the problem.

In the start it was my intention,to do just what you suggest,buy some
Ibo,and have a good friend to watch over me.
But when I talked to some people from Holland,they said that the “sitter”
had to be experienced?!(this was people that took money to do it!!)

I`m in good health,have only had a couple of acute Hepatitis b in the late
seventies.Since that my liver has been fine.I`m never sick.(flu,cold and
so),so I think my immune system is good.
Would it be a good idea(okay),to take “an initial” trip,with maybe 500mg Ibo
HCL?
This mostly to “be aquainted” to Ibo,so I knew what it was,and what I could
expect from the about 15 mg pr kilo?

Thank you very much for your help Dana.I really appreciate it.:o)
Kind regards
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I can¬īt get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though, not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Hello……
Date: February 23, 2003 at 10:12:15 AM EST
To: “Soren Lovfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

My name is Soren,and I come from Denmark.
I have been on Methadone about 15 years,the last 2 years on 60
mg,and sometimes some Oxycodone,and 10 mg Diazepam.
I would ask whether anybody know where I can get an Ibogain cure
here in Europe?(or another place)..

I had contact with a woman from The Nederlands,Sara,but I can¬īt get
in contact with her now.

I think I am so motivated a human CAN be,to STOP taking Opiates.I
hate that drug,especially Methadone.It¬īs a chemical jail for me.

My problem is also the money.I know there are places in Mexico and
Panama,but I simply can¬īt afford that.Damn it.

I you in any way think you can help me,I wil be grateful forever.
THANKS.

Sincerely
Soren

Why can’t you get extract from the Danish supplier? I think
www.indra.dk will be up again in a day or two…

Be sure to have a good babysitter to empty yr puke bucket, and a
small cannister of oxygen might be just the thing if you start to
“brade down” too much. Usually only happens on the HCl though, not
the Indra.

Dana/cnw

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 23, 2003 at 9:49:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

AAA,

just send an E-mail to this addresse:

ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com

then you’ll get confirmation E-mail (to which you reply) and – voila! you’re off the list ;-))

Marko

At 14:57 23.2.2003, you wrote:
AAA has requested three times for removal. I guess the procedure takes time?
AAA
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

Where on earth did you find that kikamoso clip.?????
What happened to AAA.  did he eventually get his name off the list.
Also… just by the way can Howard tell me why he calls himself lots of….
just out of interest or if its personal he can always tell me to mind my own
business and I won’t be offended.¬†¬†¬† Thanks Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

> On [Sat, Feb 22, 2003 at 06:29:53PM -0800], [crownofthorns@hushmail.com]
wrote:
>
> | Patrick, you’re alive! ūüėČ How’s it going bro, long time no brilliant
> | comments. What no thoughts on iraq?
>
> Fundamentally, it is my belief that we should RISE UP and FUCK THIS SHIT.
> Then — after the rising up part — a wave of peace, love, and goodwill,
> shall sweep the planet; we will kill all who oppose us.
>
> Uhm, no, wait, nevermind, they already tried that, there was that Crusades
> thing, plus, also, the whole entire human history.  And if we do not learn
> from history, then we can go find something else to do, I mean, who has
> time to read all that crap.
>
> Right now, at this very moment, I have a different dilemma.  I am unclear
> which is the greater masterpiece.¬† Akira, or THIS (it’s just THAT GOOD.¬† I
> am stunned):
>
> http://yoga.tripod.co.jp/flash/kikkomaso.swf
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 23, 2003 at 8:57:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

AAA has requested three times for removal. I guess the procedure takes time?
AAA
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

Where on earth did you find that kikamoso clip.?????
What happened to AAA.  did he eventually get his name off the list.
Also… just by the way can Howard tell me why he calls himself lots of….
just out of interest or if its personal he can always tell me to mind my own
business and I won’t be offended.¬†¬†¬† Thanks Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

> On [Sat, Feb 22, 2003 at 06:29:53PM -0800], [crownofthorns@hushmail.com]
wrote:
>
> | Patrick, you’re alive! ūüėČ How’s it going bro, long time no brilliant
> | comments. What no thoughts on iraq?
>
> Fundamentally, it is my belief that we should RISE UP and FUCK THIS SHIT.
> Then — after the rising up part — a wave of peace, love, and goodwill,
> shall sweep the planet; we will kill all who oppose us.
>
> Uhm, no, wait, nevermind, they already tried that, there was that Crusades
> thing, plus, also, the whole entire human history.  And if we do not learn
> from history, then we can go find something else to do, I mean, who has
> time to read all that crap.
>
> Right now, at this very moment, I have a different dilemma.  I am unclear
> which is the greater masterpiece.¬† Akira, or THIS (it’s just THAT GOOD.¬† I
> am stunned):
>
> http://yoga.tripod.co.jp/flash/kikkomaso.swf
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>

From: “Allison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 23, 2003 at 6:24:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Where on earth did you find that kikamoso clip.?????
What happened to AAA.  did he eventually get his name off the list.
Also… just by the way can Howard tell me why he calls himself lots of….
just out of interest or if its personal he can always tell me to mind my own
business and I won’t be offended. ¬†¬†¬†Thanks Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

On [Sat, Feb 22, 2003 at 06:29:53PM -0800], [crownofthorns@hushmail.com]
wrote:

| Patrick, you’re alive! ūüėČ How’s it going bro, long time no brilliant
| comments. What no thoughts on iraq?

Fundamentally, it is my belief that we should RISE UP and FUCK THIS SHIT.
Then — after the rising up part — a wave of peace, love, and goodwill,
shall sweep the planet; we will kill all who oppose us.

Uhm, no, wait, nevermind, they already tried that, there was that Crusades
thing, plus, also, the whole entire human history.  And if we do not learn
from history, then we can go find something else to do, I mean, who has
time to read all that crap.

Right now, at this very moment, I have a different dilemma.  I am unclear
which is the greater masterpiece. ¬†Akira, or THIS (it’s just THAT GOOD. ¬†I
am stunned):

http://yoga.tripod.co.jp/flash/kikkomaso.swf

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 23, 2003 at 12:46:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sat, Feb 22, 2003 at 06:29:53PM -0800], [crownofthorns@hushmail.com] wrote:

| Patrick, you’re alive! ūüėČ How’s it going bro, long time no brilliant
| comments. What no thoughts on iraq?

Fundamentally, it is my belief that we should RISE UP and FUCK THIS SHIT.
Then — after the rising up part — a wave of peace, love, and goodwill,
shall sweep the planet; we will kill all who oppose us.

Uhm, no, wait, nevermind, they already tried that, there was that Crusades
thing, plus, also, the whole entire human history.  And if we do not learn
from history, then we can go find something else to do, I mean, who has
time to read all that crap.

Right now, at this very moment, I have a different dilemma.  I am unclear
which is the greater masterpiece. ¬†Akira, or THIS (it’s just THAT GOOD. ¬†I
am stunned):

http://yoga.tripod.co.jp/flash/kikkomaso.swf

Patrick

From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 22, 2003 at 9:29:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick, you’re alive! ūüėČ How’s it going bro, long time no brilliant comments. What no thoughts on iraq?

Peace out,
Curtis

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:53:19 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Feb 20, 2003 at 11:30:21PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| First, Indra.dk vanishes.
| So, home come http://ibogaine.co.uk/ is down??
| Who is next?

Uhm… ¬†Nick is in India right now. ¬†And quite possibly hasn’t noticed
that he forgot to renew his domain. ¬†Doing a whois, it doesn’t exist
anymore.

The ensim thing appears to have snapped up the domain.

I’m gonna try to find Nick and, mention this or sumthin…

Patrick

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: crownofthorns@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 22, 2003 at 9:19:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The site is still there, they just shut off his home page and index file. If you find nick tell him to phone home and pay his bills ūüėČ His domain lists to ensim now. He might want to get it back ūüėČ

Peace out,
Curtis

On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:07:11 -0800 HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/21/03 1:15:07 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:

Uhm… ¬†Nick is in India right now. ¬†And quite possibly hasn’t
noticed
that he forgot to renew his domain. ¬†Doing a whois, it doesn’t
exist
anymore.

The ensim thing appears to have snapped up the domain.

I’m gonna try to find Nick and, mention this or sumthin…

I was checking links to the Ibogaine Manual
<http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html> as a Second Revision will
probably be
published in March and found that ibogaine.co.uk is still there
you just have
to get beyond the home page, <http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/treatment.htm>
for
instance.  Once there you can navigate the pages.

But, if you can contact Nick and let him know that he has to pay
the
registration fees I am sure he would appreciate it.

Howard

Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 22, 2003 at 9:07:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/21/03 1:15:07 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:

Uhm… ¬†Nick is in India right now. ¬†And quite possibly hasn’t noticed
that he forgot to renew his domain. ¬†Doing a whois, it doesn’t exist
anymore.

The ensim thing appears to have snapped up the domain.

I’m gonna try to find Nick and, mention this or sumthin…

I was checking links to the Ibogaine Manual
<http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html> as a Second Revision will probably be
published in March and found that ibogaine.co.uk is still there you just have
to get beyond the home page, <http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/treatment.htm> for
instance.  Once there you can navigate the pages.

But, if you can contact Nick and let him know that he has to pay the
registration fees I am sure he would appreciate it.

Howard

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Da War on Drugs [animation]
Date: February 22, 2003 at 6:25:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/drugs.html

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center – forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 21, 2003 at 12:53:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Feb 20, 2003 at 11:30:21PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| First, Indra.dk vanishes.
| So, home come http://ibogaine.co.uk/ is down??
| Who is next?

Uhm… ¬†Nick is in India right now. ¬†And quite possibly hasn’t noticed
that he forgot to renew his domain. ¬†Doing a whois, it doesn’t exist
anymore.

The ensim thing appears to have snapped up the domain.

I’m gonna try to find Nick and, mention this or sumthin…

Patrick

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 20, 2003 at 11:56:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

indra.dk is up in a few days.

Marc Emery

P.S. We are booked up for the next 7 weeks with 20 patients

—– Original Message —–
From: <hslotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:30 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

First, Indra.dk vanishes.
So, home come http://ibogaine.co.uk/ is down??
Who is next?

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 20, 2003 at 11:38:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/20/03 11:36:17 PM, aaasj@coqui.net writes:

Are the fact that centers are vanishing have anything to do with the success
of ibogaine?

Hank

Dubious!

Howard

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 20, 2003 at 11:35:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Are the fact that centers are vanishing have anything to do with the success of ibogaine?
Hank
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:30 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/

First, Indra.dk vanishes.
So, home come http://ibogaine.co.uk/ is down??
Who is next?

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] http://ibogaine.co.uk/
Date: February 20, 2003 at 11:30:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

First, Indra.dk vanishes.
So, home come http://ibogaine.co.uk/ is down??
Who is next?

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Treat ’em and send ’em home!
Date: February 20, 2003 at 11:30:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/20/03 11:18:04 PM, aaasj@coqui.net writes:

Are there articles on ibogaine available? If so is it possible to send
me? If not, where can I locate them?

Thank you,

http://www.ibogaine.org

European Ibogaine Forum 2018


http://www.ibogaine-research.org/Ibogaine-Research-Project/Ibogaine.htm
http://www.mindvox.com
http://www.google.com (search term ibogaine or ibogaine therapy)

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Treat ’em and send ’em home!
Date: February 20, 2003 at 11:16:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dana,
Are there articles on ibogaine available? If so is it possible to send me? If not, where can I locate them?
Thank you,
Hank
Alfred H. Artze
Principal
A. Artze Associates
Urb. Santa Maria
1908 Petunia Street
San Juan Puerto Rico 00927
787-758-3043
787-758-9468 Fax

—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
To: letters@times-colonist.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 9:45 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Treat ’em and send ’em home!

Regarding Ray Wanless’ call for detention centers for addicts, why
should taxpayers foot the bill for MONTHS of inpatient treatment when
the latest developments in medicine make it possible to use the same
bed over and over again until ALL the addicts who want treatment get
it?

Think about it: What if the only reason there’s currently a shortage
of treatment beds for addicts is that we’re not using the latest
technology to cut the length of inpatient treatment?

Have you heard of Ibogaine?  Even today, after dozens of articles in
the press and scientific journals, most people are not aware what a
breakthrough Ibogaine is in the treatment of addictions.

This rainforest alkaloid has been reported to act as an addiction
interrupter across a wide spectrum of abused substances, legal and
illegal, in more more than 200 peer-reviewed scientific papers. A
unique effect is the simultaneous loss of multiple addictions–for
example opiates, meth-amphetamine, crack, alcohol and
cigarettes–after as little as a single treatment.

Ibogaine is the first pharmacotherapy where, when the treatment wears
off, addicts are free of both physical withdrawal and psychological
craving. And where opioid maintenance (methadone) or blockers
(naltrexone) fail to address the underlying dopaminergic disorder
(craving), re-treatment with Ibogaine (should uncontrollable cravings
re-cur, or in the event or relapse) is safe and easy.
.
With Ibogaine, the acute phase that requires bed-rest takes just two
days. Even with a period to keep them under observation in case you
have to administer another, smaller dose after 4 to 6 days for
residual cravings, folks can be back at work in just under two weeks.
The stumbling block, as always, is funding–plus lack of the support
Ibogaine would have if more people realized it’s not some far-off
possibility in the distant future, but an option already available in
British Columbia.  Marc Emery of Cannabis Culture magazine is
currently operating an Ibogaine clinic on the Sunshine Coast.

He writes: “My adopted son, a heroin and methadone addict for 4
years, along with his girlfriend of 4 years (also addicted), were
administered iboga (3,800 mg whole extract, for my son, 2,800 mg. for
the woman) 25 days ago. I saw them at day 21, transformed from
hollowed, gaunt, dazed lethargy (and all those illnesses!), into
healthy, robust individuals. I was staggered.”

Ironically, in Africa tabernanthe iboga is considered a sacred plant,
and is used in a rite of passage to initiate young people into
adulthood.

Dana Beal/co-Founder, CURES not WARS/212-677-4899.

P.S: The current backlog at Iboga House is only about 8 weeks. To get
a loved one in now, call (604) 842-1023 or email
info@ibogatherapyhouse.org . Marc says there wouldn’t be a backlog —
if the government would pay for it!

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] had enough already…
Date: February 20, 2003 at 11:12:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sandra,
I had already “unsubscribed” and looked for the email and found it again and unsubscribed today for the second time.
I have interest in ibogaine for Puerto Rico, where they use the Methadone program and I would like to promote the use of ibogaine here.
Where is ibogaine available?
Has ibogaine been approved?
Are there drug release statistics available?
Thank you,
Hank
Alfred H. Artze
Principal
A. Artze Associates
Urb. Santa Maria
1908 Petunia Street
San Juan Puerto Rico 00927
787-758-3043
787-758-9468 Fax

—– Original Message —–
From: Sandra k
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] had enough already…

AAA, you have to UNSUBSCRIBE¬†yourself¬†by sending an email to the listserve. Unfortunately I had erased that message from my inbox and can not provide you with the address but perhaps if you check the previous posts you may be able to find it…I could be wrong but it may have been sent by Brett Calabrese.
Sandra‚Ä®‚Ä®—– Original Message —–‚Ä®From: “A. Artze Associates” ‚Ä®Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:18:04 -0400‚Ä®To: ‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
To simply and quickly answer your questions.
I believe that man has rights, even so far as to self destruct. That criminal laws without a victim is a travesty and an invasion of private civil rights. And if laws are to be passed against the use of¬† illicit drugs, making the user a criminal, which tends to multiply the criminal element in society, then why not ALL drugs. Why not alcohol and cigarettes? And if in fact these laws are against self destruction, hell, why not obesity as well? These are for the most part are reflections of the inability of an individual to put up with life’s difficulties. The drug user, like the alcoholic should be treated as someone who needs assistance and needs to handled as a sick person, not as a criminal, which tends to exacerbate things.
By the way, the only drugs that I use are life sustaining prescription drugs. I do however have an on going war of letters to the editor in our local paper regarding this subject.¬†Recently while in Tampa, my former brother in law, a psychiatrist and a Frenchman, which explains my feelings towards the French, gave me an insight to ibogaine. I searched it on the Internet and here I am. The last thing I wanted was to get on a “merry go round” of politics. Most of which I read I can accept, but I can not accept the fact that no one seems to regard the Muslim extremists as the new menace to the World. The new Nazism, the new communism! The new idea that we are “infidels” and that this Johnnie come lately religion thinks the world must bend to their ways of thinking and that they are willing to kill Jews and Americans because of our beliefs and lifestyle! I can agree with Muslims in many ways, especially regarding our TV programs, but I can not and will ! not accept an “ism” telling me to believe or die!
We took a lot of crap and lost a lot of lives during the Carter and Clinton years. While there are a lot of things I do not like about Bush, I do however admit that his thoughts on Muslim terrorists reflect mine almost the tee! Almost, because if it were up to me I’d start executing the prisoners we have with pig fat dipped bullets and send a strong message. Marshals for airplanes? Nonsense, put a pig in each flight, they will not want to die with a pig!
By the way, even my former brother in law agrees with the Anti French rhetoric – but then again, he’s here and not there!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Thanks for your e-mail but have to tell you that I am another so called junkie or at least was and still struggling at times and thats why I access this site.  If you feel so strongly about the drugs and people involved why did you get into this site.  Do you have an interest in Ibogaine???
As to your other e-mail,¬† I don’t believe the French have forgotten.¬† When I lived in France WW11 was still a very much talked about subject, especially with the older people.
All the French people I met had nothing but praise for the Americans, British, NZers and Aussies etc.  Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Allison,
You sound like a kind soul, is there anything you can do to get me off of this Merry-Go-Round of junkies!
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

That was a harsh comment, especially after all the other very “loud opinions”.¬† I am sure there are faults on all sides and they are easy to find when you look but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.¬† You seem very bitter about the French but I lived in the south of France for a few years and there were lots of plaques and memorials to the allies that fought with them and for them in WW11.¬† I’m probably not so informed in my history as you, (probably bunked too much school) but times have moved on and so has the world in general.¬† This war if it occurs will be completely different to any other.¬† Most people are reacting strongly out of fear I would think.¬† Look at the mail in this forum even in the last few days and its like everyone is fighting each other before there is even fighting anywhere else.¬† Perhaps that was¬†a big part of the¬†idea..¬† setting the West against the West etc.¬†&nb! sp; dividing and causing trouble.¬†¬† If so it has certainly succeeded.¬† ….Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! ! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from fathe! r to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
! pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except! to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

____________________________________________________
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From: “Sandra k” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] had enough already…
Date: February 20, 2003 at 9:03:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

AAA, you have to UNSUBSCRIBE¬†yourself¬†by sending an email to the listserve. Unfortunately I had erased that message from my inbox and can not provide you with the address but perhaps if you check the previous posts you may be able to find it…I could be wrong but it may have been sent by Brett Calabrese.
Sandra‚Ä®‚Ä®—– Original Message —–‚Ä®From: “A. Artze Associates” ‚Ä®Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:18:04 -0400‚Ä®To: ‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
To simply and quickly answer your questions.
I believe that man has rights, even so far as to self destruct. That criminal laws without a victim is a travesty and an invasion of private civil rights. And if laws are to be passed against the use of¬† illicit drugs, making the user a criminal, which tends to multiply the criminal element in society, then why not ALL drugs. Why not alcohol and cigarettes? And if in fact these laws are against self destruction, hell, why not obesity as well? These are for the most part are reflections of the inability of an individual to put up with life’s difficulties. The drug user, like the alcoholic should be treated as someone who needs assistance and needs to handled as a sick person, not as a criminal, which tends to exacerbate things.
By the way, the only drugs that I use are life sustaining prescription drugs. I do however have an on going war of letters to the editor in our local paper regarding this subject.¬†Recently while in Tampa, my former brother in law, a psychiatrist and a Frenchman, which explains my feelings towards the French, gave me an insight to ibogaine. I searched it on the Internet and here I am. The last thing I wanted was to get on a “merry go round” of politics. Most of which I read I can accept, but I can not accept the fact that no one seems to regard the Muslim extremists as the new menace to the World. The new Nazism, the new communism! The new idea that we are “infidels” and that this Johnnie come lately religion thinks the world must bend to their ways of thinking and that they are willing to kill Jews and Americans because of our beliefs and lifestyle! I can agree with Muslims in many ways, especially regarding our TV programs, but I can not and will not accept an “ism” telling me to believe or die!
We took a lot of crap and lost a lot of lives during the Carter and Clinton years. While there are a lot of things I do not like about Bush, I do however admit that his thoughts on Muslim terrorists reflect mine almost the tee! Almost, because if it were up to me I’d start executing the prisoners we have with pig fat dipped bullets and send a strong message. Marshals for airplanes? Nonsense, put a pig in each flight, they will not want to die with a pig!
By the way, even my former brother in law agrees with the Anti French rhetoric – but then again, he’s here and not there!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Thanks for your e-mail but have to tell you that I am another so called junkie or at least was and still struggling at times and thats why I access this site.  If you feel so strongly about the drugs and people involved why did you get into this site.  Do you have an interest in Ibogaine???
As to your other e-mail,¬† I don’t believe the French have forgotten.¬† When I lived in France WW11 was still a very much talked about subject, especially with the older people.
All the French people I met had nothing but praise for the Americans, British, NZers and Aussies etc.  Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Allison,
You sound like a kind soul, is there anything you can do to get me off of this Merry-Go-Round of junkies!
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

That was a harsh comment, especially after all the other very “loud opinions”.¬† I am sure there are faults on all sides and they are easy to find when you look but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.¬† You seem very bitter about the French but I lived in the south of France for a few years and there were lots of plaques and memorials to the allies that fought with them and for them in WW11.¬† I’m probably not so informed in my history as you, (probably bunked too much school) but times have moved on and so has the world in general.¬† This war if it occurs will be completely different to any other.¬† Most people are reacting strongly out of fear I would think.¬† Look at the mail in this forum even in the last few days and its like everyone is fighting each other before there is even fighting anywhere else.¬† Perhaps that was¬†a big part of the¬†idea..¬† setting the West against the West etc.¬†¬† dividing and causing trouble.¬†¬† If so it has certainly succeeded.¬† ….Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

____________________________________________________
Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net
Powered by Outblaze

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Treat ’em and send ’em home!
Date: February 20, 2003 at 8:45:37 PM EST
To: letters@times-colonist.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Regarding Ray Wanless’ call for detention centers for addicts, why
should taxpayers foot the bill for MONTHS of inpatient treatment when
the latest developments in medicine make it possible to use the same
bed over and over again until ALL the addicts who want treatment get
it?

Think about it: What if the only reason there’s currently a shortage
of treatment beds for addicts is that we’re not using the latest
technology to cut the length of inpatient treatment?

Have you heard of Ibogaine?  Even today, after dozens of articles in
the press and scientific journals, most people are not aware what a
breakthrough Ibogaine is in the treatment of addictions.

This rainforest alkaloid has been reported to act as an addiction
interrupter across a wide spectrum of abused substances, legal and
illegal, in more more than 200 peer-reviewed scientific papers. A
unique effect is the simultaneous loss of multiple addictions–for
example opiates, meth-amphetamine, crack, alcohol and
cigarettes–after as little as a single treatment.

Ibogaine is the first pharmacotherapy where, when the treatment wears
off, addicts are free of both physical withdrawal and psychological
craving. And where opioid maintenance (methadone) or blockers
(naltrexone) fail to address the underlying dopaminergic disorder
(craving), re-treatment with Ibogaine (should uncontrollable cravings
re-cur, or in the event or relapse) is safe and easy.
.
With Ibogaine, the acute phase that requires bed-rest takes just two
days. Even with a period to keep them under observation in case you
have to administer another, smaller dose after 4 to 6 days for
residual cravings, folks can be back at work in just under two weeks.
The stumbling block, as always, is funding–plus lack of the support
Ibogaine would have if more people realized it’s not some far-off
possibility in the distant future, but an option already available in
British Columbia.  Marc Emery of Cannabis Culture magazine is
currently operating an Ibogaine clinic on the Sunshine Coast.

He writes: “My adopted son, a heroin and methadone addict for 4
years, along with his girlfriend of 4 years (also addicted), were
administered iboga (3,800 mg whole extract, for my son, 2,800 mg. for
the woman) 25 days ago. I saw them at day 21, transformed from
hollowed, gaunt, dazed lethargy (and all those illnesses!), into
healthy, robust individuals. I was staggered.”

Ironically, in Africa tabernanthe iboga is considered a sacred plant,
and is used in a rite of passage to initiate young people into
adulthood.

Dana Beal/co-Founder, CURES not WARS/212-677-4899.

P.S: The current backlog at Iboga House is only about 8 weeks. To get
a loved one in now, call (604) 842-1023 or email
info@ibogatherapyhouse.org . Marc says there wouldn’t be a backlog —
if the government would pay for it!

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 20, 2003 at 8:18:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To simply and quickly answer your questions.
I believe that man has rights, even so far as to self destruct. That criminal laws without a victim is a travesty and an invasion of private civil rights. And if laws are to be passed against the use of¬† illicit drugs, making the user a criminal, which tends to multiply the criminal element in society, then why not ALL drugs. Why not alcohol and cigarettes? And if in fact these laws are against self destruction, hell, why not obesity as well? These are for the most part are reflections of the inability of an individual to put up with life’s difficulties. The drug user, like the alcoholic should be treated as someone who needs assistance and needs to handled as a sick person, not as a criminal, which tends to exacerbate things.
By the way, the only drugs that I use are life sustaining prescription drugs. I do however have an on going war of letters to the editor in our local paper regarding this subject.¬†Recently while in Tampa, my former brother in law, a psychiatrist and a Frenchman, which explains my feelings towards the French, gave me an insight to ibogaine. I searched it on the Internet and here I am. The last thing I wanted was to get on a “merry go round” of politics. Most of which I read I can accept, but I can not accept the fact that no one seems to regard the Muslim extremists as the new menace to the World. The new Nazism, the new communism! The new idea that we are “infidels” and that this Johnnie come lately religion thinks the world must bend to their ways of thinking and that they are willing to kill Jews and Americans because of our beliefs and lifestyle! I can agree with Muslims in many ways, especially regarding our TV programs, but I can not and will not accept an “ism” telling me to believe or die!
We took a lot of crap and lost a lot of lives during the Carter and Clinton years. While there are a lot of things I do not like about Bush, I do however admit that his thoughts on Muslim terrorists reflect mine almost the tee! Almost, because if it were up to me I’d start executing the prisoners we have with pig fat dipped bullets and send a strong message. Marshals for airplanes? Nonsense, put a pig in each flight, they will not want to die with a pig!
By the way, even my former brother in law agrees with the Anti French rhetoric – but then again, he’s here and not there!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Thanks for your e-mail but have to tell you that I am another so called junkie or at least was and still struggling at times and thats why I access this site.  If you feel so strongly about the drugs and people involved why did you get into this site.  Do you have an interest in Ibogaine???
As to your other e-mail,¬† I don’t believe the French have forgotten.¬† When I lived in France WW11 was still a very much talked about subject, especially with the older people.
All the French people I met had nothing but praise for the Americans, British, NZers and Aussies etc.  Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Allison,
You sound like a kind soul, is there anything you can do to get me off of this Merry-Go-Round of junkies!
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

That was a harsh comment, especially after all the other very “loud opinions”.¬† I am sure there are faults on all sides and they are easy to find when you look but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.¬† You seem very bitter about the French but I lived in the south of France for a few years and there were lots of plaques and memorials to the allies that fought with them and for them in WW11.¬† I’m probably not so informed in my history as you, (probably bunked too much school) but times have moved on and so has the world in general.¬† This war if it occurs will be completely different to any other.¬† Most people are reacting strongly out of fear I would think.¬† Look at the mail in this forum even in the last few days and its like everyone is fighting each other before there is even fighting anywhere else.¬† Perhaps that was¬†a big part of the¬†idea..¬† setting the West against the West etc.¬†¬† dividing and causing trouble.¬†¬† If so it has certainly succeeded.¬† ….Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: “Allison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 20, 2003 at 7:36:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for your e-mail but have to tell you that I am another so called junkie or at least was and still struggling at times and thats why I access this site.  If you feel so strongly about the drugs and people involved why did you get into this site.  Do you have an interest in Ibogaine???
As to your other e-mail,¬† I don’t believe the French have forgotten.¬† When I lived in France WW11 was still a very much talked about subject, especially with the older people.
All the French people I met had nothing but praise for the Americans, British, NZers and Aussies etc.  Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Allison,
You sound like a kind soul, is there anything you can do to get me off of this Merry-Go-Round of junkies!
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

That was a harsh comment, especially after all the other very “loud opinions”.¬† I am sure there are faults on all sides and they are easy to find when you look but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.¬† You seem very bitter about the French but I lived in the south of France for a few years and there were lots of plaques and memorials to the allies that fought with them and for them in WW11.¬† I’m probably not so informed in my history as you, (probably bunked too much school) but times have moved on and so has the world in general.¬† This war if it occurs will be completely different to any other.¬† Most people are reacting strongly out of fear I would think.¬† Look at the mail in this forum even in the last few days and its like everyone is fighting each other before there is even fighting anywhere else.¬† Perhaps that was¬†a big part of the¬†idea..¬† setting the West against the West etc.¬†¬† dividing and causing trouble.¬†¬† If so it has certainly succeeded.¬† ….Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] To the grand schmuck anti semitic, Marko!
Date: February 19, 2003 at 8:24:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Joe Lieberman’s letter to French People
PEN LETTER TO THE FRENCH PEOPLE FROM SENATOR JOE LIEBERMAN TO THE PEOPLE OF FRANCE – IN REMEMBRANCE
Liberty, Equality, Fraternity!
Does the French nation recall that slogan?
The current French tolerance of and indifference to the wave of attacks upon French Jews speaks clearly of the decline of the French national character.
The French have forgotten!  Two hundred and some odd years ago the suffering French populace erupted in revolution against tyranny.  They cried for and fought for liberty, fraternity, equality for all in every aspect of French society.
The French have forgotten!  But I remember!  I still have in my mind the heartbreaking image of the Parisian gentleman from whose eyes the tears fell copiously as he watched the Nazi troops marching triumphantly into Paris.  -The face of that Frenchman still lives in my mind sixty years later. It is the same as the faces of so many French Jews today.
The French have forgotten!  But I remember!  I remember the ecstasy, the flowers, the kisses with which the French people greeted their American and British liberators from Nazi terror.
The French have forgotten!  РThey have forgotten the dehumanizing result of terror upon them- selves.  РThey have forgotten the shame of Vichy France.  РThose who watch with indifference the attacks upon their neighbors sink into degeneracy themselves.
The French have forgotten brotherhood and love of others than themselves.  РThey have forgotten equal justice.  РThey have forgotten that a nation without strength of morality and character is a nation already in the lower depths of degradation.
So, just as the Swiss were part of the Nazi problem sixty years ago, the French are part of the problem of world terrorism today.  РAs the French casually watch their Jewish citizens attacked let them remember how they, the French, acquiesced in cowardice at the rape of Czechoslovakia by the Nazis in 1938, only to suffer under the Nazi heel so soon after.
My contempt for present day France is accompanied by great regret.  We gave the lives of American boys to save them once.  РThey have forgotten. However, we Americans have not forgotten.  РAll Americans with integrity of character must boycott France. I hope large numbers of you will join me in this.
If this e-mail is forwarded by just 1/2 of all recipients it could reach 10,000,000 Americans in a matter of days.¬† Let’s make the French remember!
Joe Lieberman

—– Original Message —–
From: Randy Hencken
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight

Hey Marko,

You may be right about the pentagon thing.  But your claim that no jews were
killed in the WTC is outrageous (even anti-semetic).  You act as if you want
peace amongst humanity and then you spout ignorant rumors that are rooted
deeply in hatred.  Marko, be cautious of what you write and say
-impressionable people are listening.¬† Everybody, take the time “to think
for yourself and question authority”

Randy

>From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:03:56 +0100
>
>AAA, you are unbeliveable!
>
>You think that 9/11 is the righteous cause for USA attacking Iraq, right?
>And you thik that Muslims attacked on that day, right? OK, then tell me
>just 2 things:
>
>1. Check http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm
>and let me know where are parts of Boeing 757 which supposedly crashed into
>Pentagon? (from those official photos it seems to me that Pentagon was hit
>by a US missile – much more reasonable explain! Even more, all space around
>Pentagon is electronically protected, so this missile had to be equipped
>with friendly navigation codes, otherwise it could never approach Pentagon,
>much less hit it!)
>
>2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them
>came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were
>planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?
>

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 20, 2003 at 1:02:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Marko,

You may be right about the pentagon thing. ¬†But your claim that no jews were killed in the WTC is outrageous (even anti-semetic). ¬†You act as if you want peace amongst humanity and then you spout ignorant rumors that are rooted deeply in hatred. ¬†Marko, be cautious of what you write and say -impressionable people are listening. ¬†Everybody, take the time “to think for yourself and question authority”

Randy

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:03:56 +0100

AAA, you are unbeliveable!

You think that 9/11 is the righteous cause for USA attacking Iraq, right? And you thik that Muslims attacked on that day, right? OK, then tell me just 2 things:

1. Check http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm and let me know where are parts of Boeing 757 which supposedly crashed into Pentagon? (from those official photos it seems to me that Pentagon was hit by a US missile – much more reasonable explain! Even more, all space around Pentagon is electronically protected, so this missile had to be equipped with friendly navigation codes, otherwise it could never approach Pentagon, much less hit it!)

2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

From: edgar phineas <hypernova3113@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 4:31:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m not on drugs. But you my friend, are drunk. And at the edge of the roof. Be careful.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
Edgar, when you get off of drugs, talk to me, otherwise bug off!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 4:09:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Good, now be nice and get me off this merry-go-round!
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight

At 19:32 19.2.2003, you wrote:
> >2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them
> >came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were
> >planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?
>
>
>Ok, now I’m all for the plausibility that our government had some role in
>9/11, but that no Jews died in the WTC is simply not true. I’m from a Jewish
>family, and one of our friends died in the attack.
>
>By spreading false rumours like that, you’re almost as bad as the reactionary
>putzes who want to attack Iraq out of vengence…

Sorry… I apologise… It’s my lack of knowledge of english language plus
the speed of typing with which I’m trying to follow my thoughts that are
responsible for this… But mainly I was correct, I think ūüėČ

And I decided not to fill people’s E-mailboxes with this off-topic anymore!

Enjoy,

Marko

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] the more free place
Date: February 19, 2003 at 4:06:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, I agree, my first visit many years ago, I found Canada to be very civilized. Nice people too. It was only when I inquired about the weather (Montreal) in the winter time that I found out that it got colder than my freezer! Pardon me, Puerto Rico is far from perfect, but I’ll stick to the tropics!
—– Original Message —–
From: MARC
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 3:30 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] the more free place

By the way, Canada is a freer and safer and nicer place to be than the
United States.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “jon freedlander” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: “ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 7:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq

> >===== Original Message From edgar phineas <hypernova3113@yahoo.com> =====
> >”(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”.
Yeah,
> I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass
about
> the planet or any of the life forms on it.  Wake up, look in the mirror,
and
> fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if
it
> had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that
> make me want to move to Jupiter.
>
>
> If the Bushites get there way with expanding the Star Wars program and the
> militarisation of space, soon even Jupiter won’t be safe…
>
>
>
>
> ————————————————————————–

> — League of Surrealistic Discord Records¬† —
http://www.lsdrecords.com —
>
===========================================================================
>
>
>

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] interesting admission of bup deaths
Date: February 19, 2003 at 3:53:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Pubdate: Wed, 19 Feb 2003
Source: Washington Times (DC)
Webpage: http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20030219-74506332.htm
Copyright: 2003 News World Communications, Inc.
Contact: letters@washingtontimes.com
Website: http://www.washingtontimes.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/492
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?136 (Methadone)

MEDICINE OR MENACE?

No one likes to see people suffer chronic pain, much less the horror of
heroin addiction. But methadone, the medicine commonly prescribed for both
maladies, is looking more and more like a menace. The same could be said for
its expected pharmaceutical successor, buprenorphine.

People are overdosing on methadone in record numbers. Nearly 11,000 people
appeared in emergency rooms following methadone overdoses in 2001, double
the number from 1999, according to the federal Drug Abuse Warning Network.
The East Coast in particular appears to be suffering a rash of methadone
overdoses. In North Carolina, methadone-related deaths jumped from seven in
1997 to 58 in 2001; in Florida, they increased from 209 in 2000 to 357 in
2001; and in Maine, they jumped from four in 1997 to 18 in merely the first
six months of 2001.

The increases might be related to a loosening of federal guidelines in 2001,
which allow substance abusers who already have earned a sufficient level of
trust while in treatment to take home up to 31 days of methadone doses.
However, the drug is much more easily procured as a prescription painkiller.
When methadone is prescribed as a painkiller, the doses are higher since the
drug’s ability to numb pain is smaller than its ability to reduce heroin
cravings.

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03.n266.a02.html
Webpage: http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20030219-74506332.htm

——————————

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 3:06:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 19:32 19.2.2003, you wrote:
>2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them
>came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were
>planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?

Ok, now I’m all for the plausibility that our government had some role in
9/11, but that no Jews died in the WTC is simply not true. I’m from a Jewish
family, and one of our friends died in the attack.

By spreading false rumours like that, you’re almost as bad as the reactionary
putzes who want to attack Iraq out of vengence…

Sorry… I apologise… It’s my lack of knowledge of english language plus the speed of typing with which I’m trying to follow my thoughts that are responsible for this… But mainly I was correct, I think ūüėČ

And I decided not to fill people’s E-mailboxes with this off-topic anymore!

Enjoy,

Marko

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 3:01:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I am where I like to be – in my country.
And you? you choose to live in a country you don’t like, and praise another country? The one which you left?

You poor human!

Marko

At 20:03 19.2.2003, you wrote:
Marko,
You anti American hijo de puta, go back to the shit pladce you left if you are not happy here!
Your hype is worse than mine!
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight

AAA, you are unbeliveable!

You think that 9/11 is the righteous cause for USA attacking Iraq, right? And you thik that Muslims attacked on that day, right? OK, then tell me just 2 things:

1. Check http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm and let me know where are parts of Boeing 757 which supposedly crashed into Pentagon? (from those official photos it seems to me that Pentagon was hit by a US missile – much more reasonable explain! Even more, all space around Pentagon is electronically protected, so this missile had to be equipped with friendly navigation codes, otherwise it could never approach Pentagon, much less hit it!)

2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?

Must be a nice life, being rich, old american, living in a cheap foreign county, accepting whatever you want to – and who cares about facts!

I have a suggestion: if you’re really for kicking Muslim butts, why don’t you go to one of the cities in Puerto Rico (or wherever you live), find a Muslim or two and kick their butts as much as you can!?? Maybe this would be a relief for you, and you could write about this to this list – if you’ll be still alive a few hours later!

Marko

At 14:10 19.2.2003, you wrote:
In short, the War is going to cost big-time, in actuality, Bush and his pals will enrich themselves!
Still I’m for kicking Muslim Butts!

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: unsubscribing perchance?/redpill
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:55:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

..and all without ibogaine or anything.  Now that I have seen this
fairly predictable wargame, I am at a loss as to what to do with it all.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 02/19/03 02:22PM >>>
Rick V.- You sound great. Or read great. It’s like this bright shining
light pouring out of your last message, warming my face as I read.
Sounding hippydippy here, but you sound quite refreshed or
something.;-)))

Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Allison,
You sound like a kind soul, is there anything you can do to get me
off of this Merry-Go-Round of junkies!
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

That was a harsh comment, especially after all the other very “loud
opinions”. ¬†I am sure there are faults on all sides and they are easy to
find when you look but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  You
seem very bitter about the French but I lived in the south of France for
a few years and there were lots of plaques and memorials to the allies
that fought with them and for them in WW11. ¬†I’m probably not so
informed in my history as you, (probably bunked too much school) but
times have moved on and so has the world in general.  This war if it
occurs will be completely different to any other.  Most people are
reacting strongly out of fear I would think.  Look at the mail in this
forum even in the last few days and its like everyone is fighting each
other before there is even fighting anywhere else.  Perhaps that was a
big part of the idea..  setting the West against the West etc.
dividing and causing trouble.   If so it has certainly succeeded.
….Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to
live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t
give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it. ¬†Wake
up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be
the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left
in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.

“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:

“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after
the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19
hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy”
Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the
installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to
begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil –
yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of
tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one
another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents
responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the
Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the
best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But
good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what
they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put
it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made
us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining
respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a
wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

———————————————————————-

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational
force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel
(Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me
he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going
to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we
wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it
didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World
War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and
jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future
anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military
power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I
additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action,
not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it
ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85%
of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the
fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX,
and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point,
and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front
of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire
Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest
American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a
barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these,
who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

———————————————————————-

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not
a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should
consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our soldiers back
from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find
some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil
Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world
problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every
game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t ¬†sign you name. You
wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go
back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full
strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the
immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our
shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just
respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international
level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited
amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N.
Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their
children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass!
ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was
elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out
Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that
tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over
their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after
the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19
hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy”
Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the
pipeline through the
country ¬†in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed
the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not
forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the
benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The
head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George
Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has
established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the
pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing
one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone
has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull
out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own
problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our
borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can
not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you
that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated
from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two
posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

————————————————————————
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] the more free place
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:31:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

===== Original Message From MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> =====
By the way, Canada is a freer and safer and nicer place to be than the
United States.

My aunt and uncle live in Toronto…I’ve often wondered if they’d put me up
for a while… =)

—————————————————————————
— League of Surrealistic Discord Records — http://www.lsdrecords.com —
===========================================================================

From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] the more free place
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:30:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

By the way, Canada is a freer and safer and nicer place to be than the
United States.

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

—– Original Message —–
From: “jon freedlander” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: “ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 7:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq

===== Original Message From edgar phineas <hypernova3113@yahoo.com> =====
“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”.
Yeah,
I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass
about
the planet or any of the life forms on it.  Wake up, look in the mirror,
and
fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if
it
had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that
make me want to move to Jupiter.

If the Bushites get there way with expanding the Star Wars program and the
militarisation of space, soon even Jupiter won’t be safe…

————————————————————————–

— League of Surrealistic Discord Records ¬†—
http://www.lsdrecords.com —

===========================================================================

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:26:59 PM EST
To: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

===== Original Message From “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> =====
Allison,
You sound like a kind soul, is there anything you can do to get me off of
this Merry-Go-Round of junkies!

You could try ibogaine…. =P

————————————————————————-
— League of Surrealistic Discord Records — http://www.lsdrecords.com —
=========================================================================

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: unsubscribing perchance?/redpill
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:22:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

AAA- try unsubscribe-ibogaine@mindvox.com, see if that works.
Otherwise, set your email to “block ibogaine@mindvox.com”.
QUESTION- how’d you get on this list and why? What were you thinking this list was about, and who did you think would be frequenting here?

Rick V.- You sound great. Or read great. It’s like this bright shining light pouring out of your last message, warming my face as I read. Sounding hippydippy here, but you sound quite refreshed or something.;-)))

Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Allison,
You sound like a kind soul, is there anything you can do to get me off of this Merry-Go-Round of junkies!
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

That was a harsh comment, especially after all the other very “loud opinions”.¬† I am sure there are faults on all sides and they are easy to find when you look but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.¬† You seem very bitter about the French but I lived in the south of France for a few years and there were lots of plaques and memorials to the allies that fought with them and for them in WW11.¬† I’m probably not so informed in my history as you, (probably bunked too much school) but times have moved on and so has the world in general.¬† This war if it occurs will be completely different to any other.¬† Most people are reacting strongly out of fear I would think.¬† Look at the mail in this forum even in the last few days and its like everyone is fighting each other before there is even fighting anywhere else.¬† Perhaps that was¬†a big part of the¬†idea..¬† setting the West against the West etc.¬†¬† dividing and causing trouble.¬†¬† If so it has certainly succeeded.¬† ….Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:08:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Better stop using those anti Jewish drugs! Shame on you!
They came to work on 9/11, fortunately most were bosses and they came later, the dumb Muslims grabbed an early flight!
—– Original Message —–
From: jon freedlander
To: ibogaine
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight

>2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them
>came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were
>planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?

Ok, now I’m all for the plausibility that our government had some role in
9/11, but that no Jews died in the WTC is simply not true. I’m from a Jewish
family, and one of our friends died in the attack.

By spreading false rumours like that, you’re almost as bad as the reactionary
putzes who want to attack Iraq out of vengence…

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:06:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Try Afghanistan, the Muslims are real nice there and the drugs are cheap!
So is life!
—– Original Message —–
From: jon freedlander
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 2:24 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq

>Not so with the Muslims. How much longer do we take their crap, or are you
one of those chaps who believe in turning the other cheek? If so, we ran out
of cheeks long ago!

No Muslim has ever done me any harm. Can’t say the same about Christians…

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:05:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Move to Afghanistan, plenty of cheap drugs and they love liberal Americans!
—– Original Message —–
From: jon freedlander
To: ibogaine
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq

>===== Original Message From edgar phineas <hypernova3113@yahoo.com> =====
>”(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah,
I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about
the planet or any of the life forms on it.  Wake up, look in the mirror, and
fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it
had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that
make me want to move to Jupiter.

If the Bushites get there way with expanding the Star Wars program and the
militarisation of space, soon even Jupiter won’t be safe…

—————————————————————————
— League of Surrealistic Discord Records¬† —¬† http://www.lsdrecords.com —
===========================================================================

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:04:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Allison,
You sound like a kind soul, is there anything you can do to get me off of this Merry-Go-Round of junkies!
—– Original Message —–
From: Allison Senepart
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

That was a harsh comment, especially after all the other very “loud opinions”.¬† I am sure there are faults on all sides and they are easy to find when you look but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.¬† You seem very bitter about the French but I lived in the south of France for a few years and there were lots of plaques and memorials to the allies that fought with them and for them in WW11.¬† I’m probably not so informed in my history as you, (probably bunked too much school) but times have moved on and so has the world in general.¬† This war if it occurs will be completely different to any other.¬† Most people are reacting strongly out of fear I would think.¬† Look at the mail in this forum even in the last few days and its like everyone is fighting each other before there is even fighting anywhere else.¬† Perhaps that was¬†a big part of the¬†idea..¬† setting the West against the West etc.¬†¬† dividing and causing trouble.¬†¬† If so it has certainly succeeded.¬† ….Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 2:03:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko,
You anti American hijo de puta, go back to the shit pladce you left if you are not happy here!
Your hype is worse than mine!
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight

AAA, you are unbeliveable!

You think that 9/11 is the righteous cause for USA attacking Iraq, right? And you thik that Muslims attacked on that day, right? OK, then tell me just 2 things:

1. Check http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm and let me know where are parts of Boeing 757 which supposedly crashed into Pentagon? (from those official photos it seems to me that Pentagon was hit by a US missile – much more reasonable explain! Even more, all space around Pentagon is electronically protected, so this missile had to be equipped with friendly navigation codes, otherwise it could never approach Pentagon, much less hit it!)

2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?

Must be a nice life, being rich, old american, living in a cheap foreign county, accepting whatever you want to – and who cares about facts!

I have a suggestion: if you’re really for kicking Muslim butts, why don’t you go to one of the cities in Puerto Rico (or wherever you live), find a Muslim or two and kick their butts as much as you can!?? Maybe this would be a relief for you, and you could write about this to this list – if you’ll be still alive a few hours later!

Marko

At 14:10 19.2.2003, you wrote:
In short, the War is going to cost big-time, in actuality, Bush and his pals will enrich themselves!
Still I’m for kicking Muslim Butts!

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this andTHINK!!!
Date: February 19, 2003 at 1:54:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Rick,
“Truth” is a vague word that has to do with fact and reality. The truth depends on which side of the fence you sit on. I don’t like War, but as a native New Yorker, who spent a week in bed after 9/11, I admit to “road rage.” Prior to that date, a Palestinian family living on my block had my sympathy, now I find myself cold towards the Palestinians, as well as Arabs in general, and especially towards the Muslim extremists, who I look upon as the new world menace. They want the world to accept their ways and they are willing to die for it! So be it!
As far as I am concerned this is the new¬† enemy like Nazism or Communism, and I agree with Bush the Cowboy to go and kick butt! We, under Carter and Clinton, took a lot of crap from the Muslims, they thought of us as “paper tigers” as described by UBL himself! I’m sorry, I have no feelings for the “ragheads” and wish to eradicate them!
Now as one who is a minority, a Latino, with a European face and a European surname and who¬†was born in Harlem and raised in the South Bronx, under very extreme poverty, and who now lives very well in the Caribbean, Bush is the Oil Mafioso, who I don’t care for personally. Both he and Cheney had a lot to do with Enron and Ken Lay, but their privileged positions gives them cover!
So if you are wealthy, the truth is one thing, if you are poor, the truth is yet something else, as for the War, Bush’s words echo my thoughts. In fact, if it were up to me, I’d send a bill to the garbage Saudi’s for the damages incurred on 9/11 because most of those bastards were Saudis. By the way 10% of the causalities came from this island.
In spite of all the impurities of the US, I am still proud of this country and as far as I am concerned, when they open up a Medicare Brigade to go fight, count me in!
AAA
San Juan Puerto Rico

—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this andTHINK!!!

A few months ago, I was strongly in favor of the War, and I was a
die-hard Republican.¬† A few weeks ago…and all of my life, I guess…I
had time to think, look, and search, and all the pieces I of the puzzle
that I found hinted at the whole…it’s like a splinter in your mind,
driving you mad.¬† Something telling you that your world just isn’t
right.  You could say that all the pieces of my whole life fell
together…and I vomited at what I saw and what I found, and was amazed
at the immensity of it all.¬† It took me three days…sort of ironic, I
suppose…and the scales fell from my eyes. I am no longer in favor of
the War. I am no longer a Republican.¬† And, in fact…the war is pretty
much over in a lot of ways.¬† It’s just a matter of cleaning it all up.
The various skirmishes, raids, tragedies, etc.

When you find the truth, in the twinkling of an eye you will be
transformed.

I’d eat the red pill, how about you?

This is really something you have to see for yourself.  If it was
explained, you would recoil in any number of ways, and you wouldn’t “buy
it” anyway.
But when you find the truth, it sets you free, and you see clearly, and
if the spirit of truth is within you, your whole world will melt away,
and you will shudder at what you find.  In fact, you will wrestle with
whether you are having a psychotic break.¬† And you’ll briefly think
you’re just overly paranoid, or something and you’ll believe it’s all
nonsense…but only until you again scour the news and watch the game
unfold just like a well-scripted play, just as you predicted.

But you can only be shown the door…it’s up to you to walk thru it.
The people are taught in riddles, and they are ever seeing, but never
understanding.
And why are they taught in riddles?  So they will think, question, and
look, as opposed to having it all laid out for them. Narrow is the
way…yours is simply to ask, seek, and knock.

raven@sybercom.net  AKA Rickv@hnncsb.org

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 1:32:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them
came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were
planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?

Ok, now I’m all for the plausibility that our government had some role in
9/11, but that no Jews died in the WTC is simply not true. I’m from a Jewish
family, and one of our friends died in the attack.

By spreading false rumours like that, you’re almost as bad as the reactionary
putzes who want to attack Iraq out of vengence…

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 1:24:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Not so with the Muslims. How much longer do we take their crap, or are you
one of those chaps who believe in turning the other cheek? If so, we ran out
of cheeks long ago!

No Muslim has ever done me any harm. Can’t say the same about Christians…

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and THINK!!!
Date: February 19, 2003 at 12:15:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

A few months ago, I was strongly in favor of the War, and I was a
die-hard Republican. ¬†A few weeks ago…and all of my life, I guess…I
had time to think, look, and search, and all the pieces I of the puzzle
that I found hinted at the whole…it’s like a splinter in your mind,
driving you mad. ¬†Something telling you that your world just isn’t
right.  You could say that all the pieces of my whole life fell
together…and I vomited at what I saw and what I found, and was amazed
at the immensity of it all. ¬†It took me three days…sort of ironic, I
suppose…and the scales fell from my eyes. I am no longer in favor of
the War. I am no longer a Republican. ¬†And, in fact…the war is pretty
much over in a lot of ways. ¬†It’s just a matter of cleaning it all up.
The various skirmishes, raids, tragedies, etc.

When you find the truth, in the twinkling of an eye you will be
transformed.

I’d eat the red pill, how about you?

This is really something you have to see for yourself.  If it was
explained, you would recoil in any number of ways, and you wouldn’t “buy
it” anyway.
But when you find the truth, it sets you free, and you see clearly, and
if the spirit of truth is within you, your whole world will melt away,
and you will shudder at what you find.  In fact, you will wrestle with
whether you are having a psychotic break. ¬†And you’ll briefly think
you’re just overly paranoid, or something and you’ll believe it’s all
nonsense…but only until you again scour the news and watch the game
unfold just like a well-scripted play, just as you predicted.

But you can only be shown the door…it’s up to you to walk thru it.
The people are taught in riddles, and they are ever seeing, but never
understanding.
And why are they taught in riddles?  So they will think, question, and
look, as opposed to having it all laid out for them. Narrow is the
way…yours is simply to ask, seek, and knock.

raven@sybercom.net  AKA Rickv@hnncsb.org

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Attention Sandra…please email me at my work address.
Date: February 19, 2003 at 9:52:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

All things do indeed work together for the good, don’t they?
I’m ready to eat the red pill. Or have I already done that?

This is my work address.  Thanks.
I am looking forward to a different future.
-raven

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 10:23:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

===== Original Message From edgar phineas <hypernova3113@yahoo.com> =====
“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah,
I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about
the planet or any of the life forms on it.  Wake up, look in the mirror, and
fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it
had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that
make me want to move to Jupiter.

If the Bushites get there way with expanding the Star Wars program and the
militarisation of space, soon even Jupiter won’t be safe…

—————————————————————————
— League of Surrealistic Discord Records ¬†— ¬†http://www.lsdrecords.com —
===========================================================================

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 9:49:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

People do not seem to respect it as much as you’d like to think.
They bow and scrape to your face, and then the knives come out
when your back is turned. It never stops until you stop.

Not so with the Muslims. How much longer do we take their crap, or are =
you one of those chaps who believe in turning the other cheek? If so, we =
ran out of cheeks long ago!

As if no one had to turn the other cheek for perfect us.

“I never got over the wonder of a people who, having extirpated
the aboriginals of their continent more completely than any modern
race had ever done, honestly believed that they were a godly little
New England community, setting examples to brutal mankind.”
–Rudyard Kipling, after a day spent with Roosevelt looking
at Indian relics in the Smithsonian.

Bill Ross

From: Eaquinet@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] about OCD & Ibogaine…
Date: February 19, 2003 at 9:41:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sandra, I can’t think of any contraindication w/OCD or endometriosis. Xanax is a benzodiazepine anti-anxiety agent w/a short half life; it’s primary side effect is sedation and possibility for physical or psychological tolerance.¬† Trazodone is an atypical antidepressant which is VERY sedating with potential to cause large drops in blood pressure. It is so sedating that it’s used in smaller doses as a sleep aid. Eliana

From: “Allison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 9:19:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That was a harsh comment, especially after all the other very “loud opinions”.¬† I am sure there are faults on all sides and they are easy to find when you look but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.¬† You seem very bitter about the French but I lived in the south of France for a few years and there were lots of plaques and memorials to the allies that fought with them and for them in WW11.¬† I’m probably not so informed in my history as you, (probably bunked too much school) but times have moved on and so has the world in general.¬† This war if it occurs will be completely different to any other.¬† Most people are reacting strongly out of fear I would think.¬† Look at the mail in this forum even in the last few days and its like everyone is fighting each other before there is even fighting anywhere else.¬† Perhaps that was¬†a big part of the¬†idea..¬† setting the West against the West etc.¬†¬† dividing and causing trouble.¬†¬† If so it has certainly succeeded.¬† ….Allison
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home >from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 9:03:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

AAA, you are unbeliveable!

You think that 9/11 is the righteous cause for USA attacking Iraq, right? And you thik that Muslims attacked on that day, right? OK, then tell me just 2 things:

1. Check http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm and let me know where are parts of Boeing 757 which supposedly crashed into Pentagon? (from those official photos it seems to me that Pentagon was hit by a US missile – much more reasonable explain! Even more, all space around Pentagon is electronically protected, so this missile had to be equipped with friendly navigation codes, otherwise it could never approach Pentagon, much less hit it!)

2. Do you know that in WTC used to work around 3.500 Jews, and none of them came to work on 9/11? How come? Have Muslims told them that they were planning attack to WTC on that day? Or were they told by someone else?

Must be a nice life, being rich, old american, living in a cheap foreign county, accepting whatever you want to – and who cares about facts!

I have a suggestion: if you’re really for kicking Muslim butts, why don’t you go to one of the cities in Puerto Rico (or wherever you live), find a Muslim or two and kick their butts as much as you can!?? Maybe this would be a relief for you, and you could write about this to this list – if you’ll be still alive a few hours later!

Marko

At 14:10 19.2.2003, you wrote:
In short, the War is going to cost big-time, in actuality, Bush and his pals will enrich themselves!
Still I’m for kicking Muslim Butts!

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and THINK!!!
Date: February 19, 2003 at 8:12:46 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If it wasn’t for the fact that our leaders belong to the Oil Mafia, we would focus and develop alternative energies.
Still I’m for kicking Muslim Butts!
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:14 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and THINK!!!

The 14th was the day Mother Russia put all her cards on the board and
demonstrated that she controlled the Caspian oil basin. Over 50% of the
world’s oil is now under control by “the other side.” It’s nothing more
than a great big war game…like supremacy…except it’s a lot more
complicated. Ideological warfare, Information warfare (not just
computers), etc. Put all the pieces on a board and track backward thru
history.

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:38 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and
THINK!!!

In a message dated 2/18/03 9:59:56 PM, raven@sybercom.net writes:

>Enough of the verbal warfare.on Feb. 14th, the whole balance of world
>power shifted.everything else is just for show.

Why was the 14th different from any other arbitrary day?  Just ignorant.
Not
disputing any presentation you may provide.

Howard

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 8:10:38 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In short, the War is going to cost big-time, in actuality, Bush and his pals will enrich themselves!
Still I’m for kicking Muslim Butts!
—– Original Message —–
From: Sandra K
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight

this will be the last of my posts on this topic…

RECKLESS ADMINISTRATION MAY REAP DISASTROUS CONSEQUENCES by US Senator
> >>Robert Byrd
> >
> >>Senate Floor Speech – Wednesday, February 12, 2003
> >
> >>
> >
> >>To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human
> >>experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of
> >>battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of
> >>war.
> >
> >>Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent — ominously, dreadfully
> >>silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the
> >>nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.
> >
> >
> >>We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own
> >>uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the
> >>editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of
> >>the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.
> >
> >>And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple
> >>attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes,
> >>represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning
> >>point in the recent history of the world.
> >
> >
> >>This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary
> >>doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The
> >>doctrine of preemption — the idea that the United States or any other
> >>nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening
> >>but may be threatening in the future — is a radical new twist on the
> >>traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of
> >>international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of
> >>world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if
> >>they will soon be on our — or some other nation’s — hit list. High level
> >>Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the
> >>table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more
> >>destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a
> >>world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests
> >>of many nations so closely together? There are huge cracks emerging in our
> >>time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to
> >>damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust,
> >>misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders is
> >>fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which existed
> >>after September 11.
> >
> >>
> >
> >>Here at home, people are warned of imminent terrorist attacks with little
> >>guidance as to when or where such attacks might occur. Family members are
> >>being called to active military duty, with no idea of the duration of
> >>their stay or what horrors they may face. Communities are being left with
> >>less than adequate police and fire protection. Other essential services
> >>are also short-staffed. The mood of the nation is grim. The economy is
> >>stumbling. Fuel prices are rising and may soon spike higher.  This
> >>Administration, now in power for a little over two years, must be judged
> >>on its record. I believe that that record is dismal.  In that scant two
> >>years, this Administration has squandered a large projected surplus of
> >>some $5.6 trillion over the next decade and taken us to projected deficits
> >>as far as the eye can see. This Administration’s domestic policy has put
> >>many of our states in dire financial condition, under funding scores of
> >>essential programs for our people. This Administration has fostered
> >>policies which have slowed economic growth. This Administration has
> >>ignored urgent matters such as the crisis in health care for our elderly.
> >>This Administration has been slow to provide adequate funding for homeland
> >>security. This Administration has been reluctant to better protect our
> >>long and porous borders. In foreign policy, this Administration has failed
> >>to find Osama bin Laden. In fact, just yesterday we heard from him again
> >>marshaling his forces and urging them to kill. This Administration has
> >>split traditional alliances, possibly crippling, for all time,
> >>International order-keeping entities like the United Nations and NATO.
> >>This Administration has called into question the traditional worldwide
> >>perception of the United States as well-intentioned, peacekeeper. This
> >>Administration has turned the patient art of diplomacy into threats,
> >>labeling, and name calling of the sort that reflects quite poorly on the
> >>intelligence and sensitivity of our leaders, and which will have
> >>consequences for years to come.
> >
> >>
> >
> >>Calling heads of state pygmies, labeling whole countries as evil,
> >>denigrating powerful European allies as irrelevant — these types of crude
> >>insensitivities can do our great nation no good. We may have massive
> >>military might, but we cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. We
> >>need the cooperation and friendship of our time-honored allies as well as
> >>the newer found friends whom we can attract with our wealth. Our awesome
> >>military machine will do us little good if we suffer another devastating
> >>attack on our homeland which severely damages our economy. Our military
> >>manpower is already stretched thin and we will need the
> >
> >augmenting support of those nations who can supply troop strength, not ust
> >sign letters cheering us on.
> >
> >
> >>The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is
> >>evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold in that
> >>region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace in
> >>Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in that
> >>remote and devastated land.
> >
> >>>Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This Administration
> >>>has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is eager to
> >>>embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in
> >>>Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned that
> >>>after winning the war one must always secure the peace?  And yet we hear
> >>>little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of plans,
> >>>speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq’s oil fields, becoming an
> >>>occupying power which controls the price and supply of that
> >
> >nation’s oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to hand the
> >reigns of power after Saddam Hussein?
> >
> >
> >>Will our war inflame the Muslim world resulting in devastating attacks on
> >>Israel? Will Israel retaliate with its own nuclear arsenal? Will the
> >>Jordanian and Saudi Arabian governments be toppled by radicals, bolstered
> >>by Iran which has much closer ties to terrorism than Iraq?
> >
> >Could a disruption of the world’s oil supply lead to a world-wide
> >recession? Has our senselessly bellicose language and our callous disregard
> >of the interests and opinions of other nations increased the global race to
> >join the nuclear club and made proliferation an even more
> >
> >lucrative practice for nations which need the income? In only the space of
> >two short years this reckless and arrogant Administration has initiated
> >policies which may reap disastrous consequences for years.
> >
> >>>One can understand the anger and shock of any President after the savage
> >>>attacks of September 11. One can appreciate the frustration of having
> >>>only a shadow to chase and an amorphous, fleeting enemy on which it is
> >>>nearly impossible to exact retribution.
> >
> >>
> >
> >>But to turn one’s frustration and anger into the kind of extremely
> >>destabilizing and dangerous foreign policy debacle that the world is
> >>currently witnessing is inexcusable from any Administration charged with
> >>the awesome power and responsibility of guiding the destiny of the
> >>greatest superpower on the planet. Frankly many of the pronouncements made
> >>by this Administration are outrageous. There is no other word.
> >
> >>
> >
> >Yet this chamber is hauntingly silent. On what is possibly the eve of
> >horrific infliction of death and destruction on the population of the
> >nation of Iraq — a population, I might add, of which over 50% is under age
> >15 — this chamber is silent. On what is possibly only days before we send
> >thousands of our own citizens to face unimagined horrors of chemical and
> >biological warfare — this chamber is silent. On the eve of what could
> >possibly be a vicious terrorist attack in retaliation for our attack on
> >Iraq, it is business as usual in the United States Senate.
> >
> >>
> >
> >>We are truly “sleepwalking through history.” In my heart of hearts I pray
> >>that this great nation and its good and trusting citizens are not in for a
> >>rudest of awakenings.
> >
> >>
> >
> >>To engage in war is always to pick a wild card. And war must always be a
> >>last resort, not a first choice. I truly must question the judgment of any
> >>President who can say that a massive unprovoked military attack on a
> >>nation which is over 50% children is “in the highest moral traditions of
> >>our country”. This war is not necessary at this time. Pressure appears to
> >>be having a good result in Iraq. Our mistake was to put ourselves in a
> >>corner so quickly. Our challenge is to now find a graceful way out of a
> >>box of our own making. Perhaps there is still a way if we allow more time
> >
> >


_______________________________________________
Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net

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From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 8:07:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Edgar, when you get off of drugs, talk to me, otherwise bug off!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home >from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq/attn Edgar P.
Date: February 19, 2003 at 8:04:41 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

True, and after being whipped around for about 15 years by the “Ragheads” it is time to respond! I don’t particularly like Bush, but I do like the fact that after 9/11 the “turning of cheeks” is about to end big-time!

What is to worry the Middle Easter countries is the fact that when we overthrow Saddam, we have the nasty habit of installing Democracy, something that threatens the very existence of the rest of the nations out there!
AAA
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Moore
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq/attn Edgar P.

Edgar,

Please fight facts with facts, not obscenities, which make things even worse!
Everyone has a right to their opinion.  No one has the right to take a life
except in self defense.

Andrea

—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:16 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home >from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have passed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefactors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: Jackie Mackay <jackie@works.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [IBOGAINE] balancing act
Date: February 19, 2003 at 8:02:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl
Reply-To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl

Howard wrote:
This is not
a personal putdown in any way. I’d rather see a thousand persons
dosed with ibogaine than one person busted.

I appreciate that you are doing excellent work and pioneering in
what is being perceived more and more as a police state. This
requires real courage and tenacity. Whereas what I posted was meant
to pinpoint our need for vigilance and awareness of the entire
situation, it’s easier to do if you are living in a free country.
You are right – bravado is quite another animal.

Jackie
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From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 8:01:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

People do not seem to respect it as much as you’d like to think.
They bow and scrape to your face, and then the knives come out
when your back is turned. It never stops until you stop.

Not so with the Muslims. How much longer do we take their crap, or are you one of those chaps who believe in turning the other cheek? If so, we ran out of cheeks long ago!
—– Original Message —–
From: Bill Ross
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

> road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it

Start that up and you wind up like the British in Ireland
and the Russians in Chechnya.

People do not seem to respect it as much as you’d like to think.
They bow and scrape to your face, and then the knives come out
when your back is turned. It never stops until you stop.

Bill Ross

From: “Rick” <raven@sybercom.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and THINK!!!
Date: February 19, 2003 at 8:14:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The 14th was the day Mother Russia put all her cards on the board and
demonstrated that she controlled the Caspian oil basin. Over 50% of the
world’s oil is now under control by “the other side.” It’s nothing more
than a great big war game…like supremacy…except it’s a lot more
complicated. Ideological warfare, Information warfare (not just
computers), etc. Put all the pieces on a board and track backward thru
history.

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:38 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and
THINK!!!

In a message dated 2/18/03 9:59:56 PM, raven@sybercom.net writes:

Enough of the verbal warfare.on Feb. 14th, the whole balance of world
power shifted.everything else is just for show.

Why was the 14th different from any other arbitrary day?  Just ignorant.
Not
disputing any presentation you may provide.

Howard

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 7:16:38 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“I LOVE MY COUNTRY, BUT I DO NOT TRUST MY GOVERNMENT”

I can accept that concept 100%. If you belonged to the group of folks whose wealth was tied up in Oil, you would be in my mind belonging to the Oil Mafia! As I came from very poor stock, but made a lot of money, I am neither here nor there in my politics. But duly recognize what politics is about. I do not like politics, less the politicians!
Government = incompetence and/or corruption or both.
Nevertheless, this is still a country where the individual has choices, if you chose to be poor, so be it, if you chose to enrich yourselves, you can. Try that in other places of the world. We are not perfect, but it is quite a livable place to be!
AAA
—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear AAA,
After reading Prestons post, I also have to admit to thread creeping, but I
believe, in light of the number of US Soldiers who have returned to US soil
addicted when arriving home, and were NOT that way when they left, I shall
try to squeak under the wire. I do not know if you had the pleasure of
getting one of these “Greetings, your friends and neighbors have selected
you to serve in the US military” letters or if you volunteered. South East
Asia’s Golden Triangle, run by South Viet Nam Generals for the most part,
ruined many a fine American Youth. Indeed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was
a Fairy Tale according to Robert MacNamara then Secretary of Defense. No
attack ever occurred, but we were there because of the LIE. Things will not
get any better without holding the government accountable. To date that is
not happening. It is not my intent to argue with anyone as it serves no
purpose. I will say that the white house has admitted that the British,
Germans, Egyptians, and Israelis all told us of  the the attack plans prior
to 911 and Dubya (W) was briefed in August 8, 2001. The white house line is
that (according to Ari Fleisher) the documents were not translated in time,
and were completed on 9-12-01a month and four days after the briefing. MUST
HAVE BEEN REAL HIGH PRIORITY. The Aussies told us of Pearl Harbor four days
prior, but it was a weekend so no one notified Admiral Kimmel at PACIFIC
FLEET.
I guess that I am Just saying that I LOVE MY COUNTRY, BUT I DO NOT TRUST MY
GOVERNMENT, for the above reasons and MANY more. Also the Gentle Lady
Marine forgot to mention that without France it is VERY doubtful that we
would have won the American Revolution. I think that they gave us the
Statue of Liberty as well. I enjoy New York frequently and lived there on
two occasions, Brooklyn and upper East side Manahatten, and wish you the
best.
Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and THINK!!!
Date: February 19, 2003 at 7:09:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Lots of pro and con things about Bush, most certainly in my mind. One thing to be sure, in the past 15 years or so, we (USA) have taken a lot of crap from the Muslims, without a proper response. After 9/11, our response is going to be much like the Israeli’s responses, never again! If it means war, so be it. The French don’t like Bush’s cowboy attitude, neither do I, but I still go along with the response.
For a complete history of the French, see below:

This came from a friend.

Since the French are giving us a hard time its time to look back at their history
THE COMPLETE MILITARY HISTORY OF FRANCE
— Gallic Wars – Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian. “HOORAY”-Says Milo
— Hundred Years War – Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; “France’s armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman.”
— Italian Wars – Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians. “HOORAY AGAIN”- Says Milo
— Wars of Religion – France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots.
— Thirty Years War – France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.
— War of Devolution – Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.
— The Dutch War – Tied.
— War of the Augsburg League/King William’s War/French and Indian War – Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.
— War of the Spanish Succession – Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.
— American Revolution – In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as “de Gaulle Syndrome”, and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; “France only wins when America does most of the fighting.”
— French Revolution – Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.
— The Napoleonic Wars – Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.
— The Franco-Prussian War – Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France’s ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.
— World War I – Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it’s like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn’t call her “Fraulein.” Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.
— World War II – Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.
— War in Indochina – Lost. French forces plead sickness, take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu.
— Algerian Rebellion – Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; “We can always beat the French.” This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.
— War on Terrorism – France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald’s.
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—– Original Message —–
From: Rick
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:06 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and THINK!!!

I am curious over this Iraq thing…and I ask myself too many questions. And I think about too many lines of thought and variations on variations. And I think about what we see in the US media. And I think about Probability theory. And I think about playing games of Diplomacy and supremacy. And I think about all of the pieces I see moving around the board. And I track the movement of the players. And I think about the numerous articles I have read from various think-tanks. And I scour the information from every nation that I have access to with my fingertips. And I think about Orwell. And the Matrix.   And then I ask myself this question…If I was having a dream that was so real that I didn’t know if I was asleep or awake, how would I know the real world from the dream world?  The idiot’s answer is that you wouldn’t. But that’s nonsense:  The thinking man’s answer is that he would look for logical inconsistencies and improbabilities.  Simply use the technology under your fingertips, then apply your gray matter along all the lines of thought I described above for three full days…and you will wake up in a very different mindset than you started out with.

There are a LOT of intelligent folks on this list…have any of you pieced together what’s really going on?  If so, contact me.

If not, then THINK FOR YOURSELVESand think a lot.  For those of you who don’t figure it out, I mourn for you…you are just sheep without a shepherd. For those who do…best change your portfolios around while all of the political spin and diplomacy wraps the package up all nice and neat for all the sheep to swallow.  You might want to check your travel bags as well.

Enough of the verbal warfare¬Öon Feb. 14th, the whole balance of world power shifted¬Öeverything else is just for show.
From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 7:01:17 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Bill,
Read the history of the Gulf War 11 years ago and try to understand why we are going.
But you stay home, we don’t need useless junkies!
—– Original Message —–
From: Bill Ross
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

> road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it

Start that up and you wind up like the British in Ireland
and the Russians in Chechnya.

People do not seem to respect it as much as you’d like to think.
They bow and scrape to your face, and then the knives come out
when your back is turned. It never stops until you stop.

Bill Ross

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 19, 2003 at 6:59:41 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nothing but useless junkies here!
—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home >from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not word! s,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have pass! ed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefact! ors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to! this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: “Sandra K” <windforme@graffiti.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq- articulate insight
Date: February 19, 2003 at 1:50:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

this will be the last of my posts on this topic…

RECKLESS ADMINISTRATION MAY REAP DISASTROUS CONSEQUENCES by US Senator
Robert Byrd

Senate Floor Speech – Wednesday, February 12, 2003

To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human
experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of
battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of
war.

Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent — ominously, dreadfully
silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the
nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.

We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own
uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the
editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of
the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple
attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes,
represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning
point in the recent history of the world.

This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary
doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The
doctrine of preemption — the idea that the United States or any other
nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening
but may be threatening in the future — is a radical new twist on the
traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of
international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of
world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if
they will soon be on our — or some other nation’s — hit list. High level
Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the
table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more
destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a
world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests
of many nations so closely together? There are huge cracks emerging in our
time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to
damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust,
misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders is
fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which existed
after September 11.

Here at home, people are warned of imminent terrorist attacks with little
guidance as to when or where such attacks might occur. Family members are
being called to active military duty, with no idea of the duration of
their stay or what horrors they may face. Communities are being left with
less than adequate police and fire protection. Other essential services
are also short-staffed. The mood of the nation is grim. The economy is
stumbling. Fuel prices are rising and may soon spike higher.  This
Administration, now in power for a little over two years, must be judged
on its record. I believe that that record is dismal.  In that scant two
years, this Administration has squandered a large projected surplus of
some $5.6 trillion over the next decade and taken us to projected deficits
as far as the eye can see. This Administration’s domestic policy has put
many of our states in dire financial condition, under funding scores of
essential programs for our people. This Administration has fostered
policies which have slowed economic growth. This Administration has
ignored urgent matters such as the crisis in health care for our elderly.
This Administration has been slow to provide adequate funding for homeland
security. This Administration has been reluctant to better protect our
long and porous borders. In foreign policy, this Administration has failed
to find Osama bin Laden. In fact, just yesterday we heard from him again
marshaling his forces and urging them to kill. This Administration has
split traditional alliances, possibly crippling, for all time,
International order-keeping entities like the United Nations and NATO.
This Administration has called into question the traditional worldwide
perception of the United States as well-intentioned, peacekeeper. This
Administration has turned the patient art of diplomacy into threats,
labeling, and name calling of the sort that reflects quite poorly on the
intelligence and sensitivity of our leaders, and which will have
consequences for years to come.

Calling heads of state pygmies, labeling whole countries as evil,
denigrating powerful European allies as irrelevant — these types of crude
insensitivities can do our great nation no good. We may have massive
military might, but we cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. We
need the cooperation and friendship of our time-honored allies as well as
the newer found friends whom we can attract with our wealth. Our awesome
military machine will do us little good if we suffer another devastating
attack on our homeland which severely damages our economy. Our military
manpower is already stretched thin and we will need the

augmenting support of those nations who can supply troop strength, not ust
sign letters cheering us on.

The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is
evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold in that
region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace in
Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in that
remote and devastated land.

Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This Administration
has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is eager to
embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in
Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned that
after winning the war one must always secure the peace?  And yet we hear
little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of plans,
speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq’s oil fields, becoming an
occupying power which controls the price and supply of that

nation’s oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to hand the
reigns of power after Saddam Hussein?

Will our war inflame the Muslim world resulting in devastating attacks on
Israel? Will Israel retaliate with its own nuclear arsenal? Will the
Jordanian and Saudi Arabian governments be toppled by radicals, bolstered
by Iran which has much closer ties to terrorism than Iraq?

Could a disruption of the world’s oil supply lead to a world-wide
recession? Has our senselessly bellicose language and our callous disregard
of the interests and opinions of other nations increased the global race to
join the nuclear club and made proliferation an even more

lucrative practice for nations which need the income? In only the space of
two short years this reckless and arrogant Administration has initiated
policies which may reap disastrous consequences for years.

One can understand the anger and shock of any President after the savage
attacks of September 11. One can appreciate the frustration of having
only a shadow to chase and an amorphous, fleeting enemy on which it is
nearly impossible to exact retribution.

But to turn one’s frustration and anger into the kind of extremely
destabilizing and dangerous foreign policy debacle that the world is
currently witnessing is inexcusable from any Administration charged with
the awesome power and responsibility of guiding the destiny of the
greatest superpower on the planet. Frankly many of the pronouncements made
by this Administration are outrageous. There is no other word.

Yet this chamber is hauntingly silent. On what is possibly the eve of
horrific infliction of death and destruction on the population of the
nation of Iraq — a population, I might add, of which over 50% is under age
15 — this chamber is silent. On what is possibly only days before we send
thousands of our own citizens to face unimagined horrors of chemical and
biological warfare — this chamber is silent. On the eve of what could
possibly be a vicious terrorist attack in retaliation for our attack on
Iraq, it is business as usual in the United States Senate.

We are truly “sleepwalking through history.” In my heart of hearts I pray
that this great nation and its good and trusting citizens are not in for a
rudest of awakenings.

To engage in war is always to pick a wild card. And war must always be a
last resort, not a first choice. I truly must question the judgment of any
President who can say that a massive unprovoked military attack on a
nation which is over 50% children is “in the highest moral traditions of
our country”. This war is not necessary at this time. Pressure appears to
be having a good result in Iraq. Our mistake was to put ourselves in a
corner so quickly. Our challenge is to now find a graceful way out of a
box of our own making. Perhaps there is still a way if we allow more time


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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq…perhaps everyone should read this and THINK!!!
Date: February 18, 2003 at 11:38:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 2/18/03 9:59:56 PM, raven@sybercom.net writes:

Enough of the verbal warfare.on Feb. 14th, the whole balance of world
power shifted.everything else is just for show.

Why was the 14th different from any other arbitrary day?  Just ignorant.  Not
disputing any presentation you may provide.

Howard

From: jon ludlam <seraphina@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 7:53:19 PM EST
To: “INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear AAA,
After reading Prestons post, I also have to admit to thread creeping, but I
believe, in light of the number of US Soldiers who have returned to US soil
addicted when arriving home, and were NOT that way when they left, I shall
try to squeak under the wire. I do not know if you had the pleasure of
getting one of these “Greetings, your friends and neighbors have selected
you to serve in the US military” letters or if you volunteered. South East
Asia’s Golden Triangle, run by South Viet Nam Generals for the most part,
ruined many a fine American Youth. Indeed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was
a Fairy Tale according to Robert MacNamara then Secretary of Defense. No
attack ever occurred, but we were there because of the LIE. Things will not
get any better without holding the government accountable. To date that is
not happening. It is not my intent to argue with anyone as it serves no
purpose. I will say that the white house has admitted that the British,
Germans, Egyptians, and Israelis all told us of  the the attack plans prior
to 911 and Dubya (W) was briefed in August 8, 2001. The white house line is
that (according to Ari Fleisher) the documents were not translated in time,
and were completed on 9-12-01a month and four days after the briefing. MUST
HAVE BEEN REAL HIGH PRIORITY. The Aussies told us of Pearl Harbor four days
prior, but it was a weekend so no one notified Admiral Kimmel at PACIFIC
FLEET.
I guess that I am Just saying that I LOVE MY COUNTRY, BUT I DO NOT TRUST MY
GOVERNMENT, for the above reasons and MANY more. Also the Gentle Lady
Marine forgot to mention that without France it is VERY doubtful that we
would have won the American Revolution. I think that they gave us the
Statue of Liberty as well. I enjoy New York frequently and lived there on
two occasions, Brooklyn and upper East side Manahatten, and wish you the
best.
Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

From: “A. Moore” <27andy@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq/attn Edgar P.
Date: February 18, 2003 at 7:53:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Edgar,

Please fight facts with facts, not obscenities, which make things even worse!
Everyone has a right to their opinion.  No one has the right to take a life
except in self defense.

Andrea

—– Original Message —–
From: edgar phineas
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:16 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have passed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefactors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 7:13:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it

Start that up and you wind up like the British in Ireland
and the Russians in Chechnya.

People do not seem to respect it as much as you’d like to think.
They bow and scrape to your face, and then the knives come out
when your back is turned. It never stops until you stop.

Bill Ross

From: edgar phineas <hypernova3113@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 7:02:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“(Amerikkka) still remains as the best place in the World to live in”. Yeah, I guess it is the best place to live in if you don’t give a rat’s ass about the planet or any of the life forms on it.¬† Wake up, look in the mirror, and fuck off you warmonger. Amerikkka could be the best place in the world if it had a quarter ounce of humanity left in its soul. Itss fucks like you that make me want to move to Jupiter.
“A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have passed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefactors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 6:27:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?”
Totally agree, except Kuwait, someone mentioned the installation of Democracy an asinine idea considering they never were to begin with, Bush Sr. said it all, when he blurted out it was about Oil – yes he does belong to the Oil Mafia! Afghanistan, is a complete waste of tax payers money, those people know nothing except how to kill one another, they have been doing it that way for thousands of years!
As to the Saudi’s, as we here in the US hold parents responsible for the damages that they cause, we should inform the Saudi’s that they owe us BIGTIME!

Even with our guttered Constitution, it still remains as the best place in the World to live in, perfect it’s not, to be sure. But good enough for many immigrants to flood to our shores and do here what they could never do back where they are from!

As a New Yorker, road rage is exactly the perfect way to put it, this is what I feel, especially after 9/11. Carter and Clinton made us look like “paper tigers” as we were described by UBL! I’m for gaining respect, even if it means kicking butt! Hyper power, as told to us by a wanna be power, whose History sucks!
Try this one on for size!

An actual letter home from a marine with the multinational force in Bosnia:
Dear Dad,
A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):
A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he
thought we Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn’t be
able to count on the support of France. I told him that it didn’t
surprise me. Since we had come to France’s rescue in World War I, World
War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was
due to surface [again] at some point in the near future anyway.
I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a
socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally
told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words,
would do whatever it had to do, and France’s support, if it ever came,
was only for show anyway.
Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
other way around. He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told
him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the
Burger King and whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National
Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had
more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian
cowboy and walked away in a huff.With friends like these, who needs
enemies?
Dad, tell Mom I love her,
Your loving daughter,
Mary Beth Johnson
LtCol., USMC

If we don’t continue the Desert Storm War, because it is not a preemptive strike, but a continuation of Desert Storm, then we should consider pulling out, and I mean pull our, bring ALL our¬†soldiers back from where ever they are, leave the UN and NATO, and ask the UN to find some place else to meet. Close our borders tight, bring back Civil Rights (for citizens only) and let everyone else handle the world problems. We are only appreciated when we are giving, but as in every game, if its my money, its my rules, otherwise do it yourselves!
AAA

—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t¬† sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have passed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country¬† in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefactors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

From: jon ludlam <seraphina@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 6:07:48 PM EST
To: “INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Whomever wrote to Marko and didn’t ¬†sign you name. You wrote:

<<<Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia
where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!>>>

I guess that the best answer is that those flooding our shores do not know
that our Constitution has recently been gutted !

<<<We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!>>>

Something like road rage, except on an international level.

<<<The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time
only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there
until they die, then they pass on the power to their children! >>>

Don’t look now but I think the reigns of power have passed from father to
son with one president in between, and even then GWB was elected by the
Supreme Court not the Florida/United States electorate.

<<<The rest of the Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have
the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten
their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like
the one in N. Korea we can do without.>>>

Excuse ME, but did we install a Democracy in Kuwait after the Gulf War? How
about the Saudi’s that we support after 15 of the 19 hijackers came from
Saudi Arabia? Dare I mention our most recent “Democracy” Afghanistan?
Karzai was a lobbyist for Unical Oil trying to get the pipeline through the
country ¬†in which he now is “UNELECTED PRESIDENT” Indeed the US tried to
bring the King back, but couldn’t pull it off. Do not forget that Enron/Ken
Lay/ Carlyle Group/Daddy Bush/Delta Oil are/were the benefactors of the
pipeline, Enron, is now out of it for obvious reasons.The head of Delta Oil
is the former head of BCCI, a joint venturer with George Bush the Elder,
and his sister is married to Bin Laden, the US has established 5 military
bases in Afghanistan along the proposed route of the pipeline,  I could go
on, but I hope you are getting the picture.

<<< The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and
we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short
memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either! >>>

I do not know how to respond to this, except to remind you that WW1 started
when an Arch Duke was assasinated, and things  escalated from there. PLEASE
correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Marko’s two posts were
factually correct.

Respectfully,
Jon Ludlam

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (Way OT) Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 3:51:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston,
I could tell you more along the lines that you speak of, regarding the US as not being as lily white clean as some of us would like to think. Overall, when looking at the world, it is still the best place to live and to grow, once you make the right choices.
But you are right, I did not get on this merry-go-round to discuss anything but ibogaine. I have already requested to have my name removed. I live in Puerto Rico and get enough of anti Americanism, an island that without US presence, it would have looked worse than Haiti today!
AAA
—– Original Message —–
From: preston peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:27 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] (Way OT) Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Out of curiosity, and even while guilty of my own off-topic posts in this
vein, but what in the heck does this ranting have to do with Ibogaine?
Especially the ever so quaint “fuck off” to Marco, who is only telling it
like it is?
“Everybody has short memories regarding the good the US does” my butt.
Ask those tortured and killed by Vladamir Montesinos about the good the US
does, or Manuel Noreiga, or Gulbidden Hekmatyar, CIA-lackies all who
trafficked tons of drugs, killed lots of opponents and did all sorts of
other mean, nasty, dastardly things while in power and receiving US
guidance, arms and money, money that coulda been used to help pay for US
health care rather than prop up murderous drug trafficking criminal
terrorist types and protect US corporate investments. Oh heck, I almost
forgot, add Saddam Hussein to that list of CIA/US military beneficiaries.
Why should I and my fellow US citizens, not to mention the citizens of all
these countries that have had US “good” shoved down their throats over the
years already, have to pay in blood and money for the mistakes and crimes of
our murderous government and their lackies?
Anyone who follows the War on Some Drugs and Users and knows the lies
and crimes committed by prohibitionist forces while waging it, and can still
buy into the propaganda promoted by the very same powers-that-be about
anything else leaves me wondering about perspectives and motives, to be
quite frank about it. Of course, perhaps you A. Artze are buying into the
WOSD as well?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia where
you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!
We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!
The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time only,
the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there until
they die, then they pass on the power to their children! The rest of the
Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have the nasty habit of
installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten their own ways as
there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like the one in N. Korea
we can do without. The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one
another and we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has
short memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either!

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Hey, I can’t get it that you can be THAT blind!

read your E-mail once again and try to understand what you’ve written!!
You’re blind, aren’t you? It’s not France and Germany selling equipment to
Iraq, it’s your beloved, spotless USA!! What do you think, how your secret
agencies know what Iraq has? Because they’ve sold that (whatever) to it!

And don’t forget that during the WW2 USA was the leading nation, proud with
democracy and so on… but now, where’s the democracy? All you have is a lot
of fear, a president that was not elected by people but by oil lobbies (and
as you wrote yourself, he doesn’t want no alternative energy around, because
he’s a Mafia member), and threatened “American way of life”.

And everything seems to be even worse in the future :-((

Which country has large quantities of nuclear, chemical and biological
weapons, and an idiot in charge??

I’ve seen results of an opinion pool yesterday. Question was: Who is at the
moment the biggest threat to world peace? And almost 90% decided it is USA,
7% were for Iraq and 3% for Corea.

Now, think a little before you advertise a country which wants to play the
role of world policeman, judge and prosecutor in one “person”… It’s like
somebody says that you’re bad just because you don’t share his opinion, then
he sentences you to beating, and finally beats the living hell out of you.
Oh, and yes, he’s two heads bigger than you (and much stronger, too) and
carries a machine-gun with him all the time…

Take some IBO and get your attic in order, that’s my advice! Maybe then
you’ll get rid of brainwashing!!

Marko

At 15:09 18.2.2003, you wrote:

Ustanova,
The USA is continuing the Desert Storm War, because the UN is acting like
the League of Nations after WWI, when the Allies kicked Germany’s butt.
Germany agreed not to rearm and Hitler broke that treaty and WWII came
about.
Today, with the Vichy French and the Neo Nazi Germany, who both sell
equipment to Iraq that helps them break their treaty with the now useless UN
and NATO, because of the gutless French and German, both of whom have short
memories! The US left over 150,000 men buried in France helping them to get
rid of the Nazi’s and Germany was built up by the US after the war – read
your history!
If the US so deemed it, we would be running on alternative energy today, the
technology is here, unfortunately, people like Bush and Cheney have their
personal fortunes in the Oil Mafia!
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:42 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Iraq

Hi all,

perhaps you don’t know, but USA are after Iraq not because of oil, but
because Iraq decided not to keep money reserves in US& anymore, but
switched to EURO. This made US$ a few % cheaper… and all OPEC countries
are thinking to switch to EURO, too, and that would make US$ drop for
40%… So, USA has to prevent this, ergo – Bush is after Iraq.

Can’t find the link, but here’s another link which you’ll love! Well, most
of you, anywayz ;-))
http://lollygagger.org/artists/manfish/GeorgieW.swf

Marko

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (Way OT) Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 3:27:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Out of curiosity, and even while guilty of my own off-topic posts in this
vein, but what in the heck does this ranting have to do with Ibogaine?
Especially the ever so quaint “fuck off” to Marco, who is only telling it
like it is?
“Everybody has short memories regarding the good the US does” my butt.
Ask those tortured and killed by Vladamir Montesinos about the good the US
does, or Manuel Noreiga, or Gulbidden Hekmatyar, CIA-lackies all who
trafficked tons of drugs, killed lots of opponents and did all sorts of
other mean, nasty, dastardly things while in power and receiving US
guidance, arms and money, money that coulda been used to help pay for US
health care rather than prop up murderous drug trafficking criminal
terrorist types and protect US corporate investments. Oh heck, I almost
forgot, add Saddam Hussein to that list of CIA/US military beneficiaries.
Why should I and my fellow US citizens, not to mention the citizens of all
these countries that have had US “good” shoved down their throats over the
years already, have to pay in blood and money for the mistakes and crimes of
our murderous government and their lackies?
Anyone who follows the War on Some Drugs and Users and knows the lies
and crimes committed by prohibitionist forces while waging it, and can still
buy into the propaganda promoted by the very same powers-that-be about
anything else leaves me wondering about perspectives and motives, to be
quite frank about it. Of course, perhaps you A. Artze are buying into the
WOSD as well?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia where
you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding
our gates!
We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get
your ass kicked!
The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time only,
the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there until
they die, then they pass on the power to their children! The rest of the
Middle East do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have the nasty habit of
installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten their own ways as
there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like the one in N. Korea
we can do without. The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one
another and we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has
short memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops
from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I
would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone
fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure
all, but one does not need to take shit either!

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Hey, I can’t get it that you can be THAT blind!

read your E-mail once again and try to understand what you’ve written!!
You’re blind, aren’t you? It’s not France and Germany selling equipment to
Iraq, it’s your beloved, spotless USA!! What do you think, how your secret
agencies know what Iraq has? Because they’ve sold that (whatever) to it!

And don’t forget that during the WW2 USA was the leading nation, proud with
democracy and so on… but now, where’s the democracy? All you have is a lot
of fear, a president that was not elected by people but by oil lobbies (and
as you wrote yourself, he doesn’t want no alternative energy around, because
he’s a Mafia member), and threatened “American way of life”.

And everything seems to be even worse in the future :-((

Which country has large quantities of nuclear, chemical and biological
weapons, and an idiot in charge??

I’ve seen results of an opinion pool yesterday. Question was: Who is at the
moment the biggest threat to world peace? And almost 90% decided it is USA,
7% were for Iraq and 3% for Corea.

Now, think a little before you advertise a country which wants to play the
role of world policeman, judge and prosecutor in one “person”… It’s like
somebody says that you’re bad just because you don’t share his opinion, then
he sentences you to beating, and finally beats the living hell out of you.
Oh, and yes, he’s two heads bigger than you (and much stronger, too) and
carries a machine-gun with him all the time…

Take some IBO and get your attic in order, that’s my advice! Maybe then
you’ll get rid of brainwashing!!

Marko

At 15:09 18.2.2003, you wrote:

Ustanova,
The USA is continuing the Desert Storm War, because the UN is acting like
the League of Nations after WWI, when the Allies kicked Germany’s butt.
Germany agreed not to rearm and Hitler broke that treaty and WWII came
about.
Today, with the Vichy French and the Neo Nazi Germany, who both sell
equipment to Iraq that helps them break their treaty with the now useless UN
and NATO, because of the gutless French and German, both of whom have short
memories! The US left over 150,000 men buried in France helping them to get
rid of the Nazi’s and Germany was built up by the US after the war – read
your history!
If the US so deemed it, we would be running on alternative energy today, the
technology is here, unfortunately, people like Bush and Cheney have their
personal fortunes in the Oil Mafia!
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:42 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Iraq

Hi all,

perhaps you don’t know, but USA are after Iraq not because of oil, but
because Iraq decided not to keep money reserves in US& anymore, but
switched to EURO. This made US$ a few % cheaper… and all OPEC countries
are thinking to switch to EURO, too, and that would make US$ drop for
40%… So, USA has to prevent this, ergo – Bush is after Iraq.

Can’t find the link, but here’s another link which you’ll love! Well, most
of you, anywayz ;-))
http://lollygagger.org/artists/manfish/GeorgieW.swf

Marko

From: “S√łren L√łvfelt” <isl46726@image.dk>
Subject: Re: [IBOGAINE] Attn: Soren
Date: February 18, 2003 at 3:13:35 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl

Hi Andrea,I must admit I dont know it.
But if you like,I can ask?
Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Moore
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [IBOGAINE] Attn: Soren

Soren,

Regarding ethnoplanet.dk, do they ship to the good old USA?
I also cannot read Danish.  Does their website translate to English?

Andrea

—– Original Message —–
From: J.M. Trojanowski
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:24 AM
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl
Subject: Re: [IBOGAINE] Where is Indra

Thanks for the advise, but what happened to them? Can anyone enlighten me please?
Maciek
—– Original Message —–
From: Soren Lovfelt
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [IBOGAINE] Where is Indra

Hello…
If it¬īs Indra in Denmark you are refering to,Im afraid they are closed.

But if it¬īs because you wanna buy Ibo,you can get it here:
http://ethnoplanet.dk

Hope this helped
Soren

—– Original Message —–
From: J.M. Trojanowski
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 10:50 AM
Subject: [IBOGAINE] Where is Indra

That is directed to Gekko:

Where are you? My emails do not reach you, they all return.

Could you advise your email address?

regards,
Maciek

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Savor the Irony
Date: February 18, 2003 at 2:08:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: deanl1@earthlink.net, hsl123@aol.com, sbloom@hightimes.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 6:32 PM -0800 2/17/03, A J Dietterle wrote:
Hello everyone. We have treated twenty people now at the Iboga
Therapy house, and Linette, one of our fine facillitators, has also
been profoundly affected by her ibogaine experience (2,800 mg INDRA
extract) three weeks ago also.

I shall try to prepare a report for the group here, (lest you all
get distracted by the war coming up shortly), on our observations
and experiences.

For example, the patients most likely to experience alot of nausea
are big bodied crack cocaine users, those experiencing the least
nausea are wiry thin heroin/methadone users. We think the large
people have fat tisues in the stomach which the acidic extract
agitates, plus the cocaine people have usually put alot of the
substance through their body where the liver and stomach process
fairly large amounts over time. If you think of it, its usually
larger bodied, overeating people that get ‘heartburn’/’acid reflux’.

We have had good results from the patients with crack cocaine
problems when we give them a dose ranging from 3,000 – 5,200 mg
INDRA extract, plus a daily supplement of 20 mg Ibogaine
hydrochloride for 20 days therafter the 48 hour mark of the original
dose.

By the bye, I need to get hold of www.indra.dk but I cannot get the
website to work. Does anyone know how I may contact him?

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

P.S. If anyone you know or yourself would like to receive IBOGA
THERAPY to treat repetitive, self-destructive behaviour
patterns/drug dependecy, please apply to our health profile screener
at sandra@ibogatherapyhouse.org

Our website is at www.ibogatherapyhouse.org and will be filling up
with content shortly.

DETAILS Magazine is here at the Iboga Therapy House writing about
our work. The author, Gary Greenburg, is extremely well informed
about the ibogaine situation.

DETAILS is a successor publication to the SOHO WEEKLY NEWS. To savor
the irony, check out ¬†“The War With the Junkies” @
http://www.cures-not-wars.org/ibogaine/chap01.html

If Tom Forcade had started Ibogaine treatments, instead of getting
all depressed, he almost certainly wouldn’t have shot himself in the
head. His vision was occluded, though…he would not read the PKDick
books I gave him, for instance, and probably never really listened
when Howard told him about Ibogaine. Maybe it was the coke. I don’t
remember whether  A SCANNER DARKLY came out in paperback that summer
or in ’79, but I know I gave him NOW WAIT FOR LAST YEAR, which is the
most Ibogainesque of Dick’s drug books, especially in terms of what’s
happening with the attempt to come up with non-psychedelic
ibogaine–18-MC and noribogaine.

Can’t have people traveling in time, now, can we?

Kudos to Mark for doing it right the second time around.

Dana/cnw

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 1:09:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

If you aren’t interested in the ramblings of an old man, please delete now. If you’re still there, pull up a chair and listen. Is there anyone else out there who’s sick and tired of all the polls being taken in foreign countries as to whether or not they” like” us? The last time I looked, the word “like” had nothing to do with foreign policy.¬† I prefer ‘respect’ or ‘fear.’ They worked for Rome, which civilized and kept the peace in the known world a hell of a lot longer than our puny two centuries-plus. I see a left-wing German got elected to office recently by campaigning against the foreign policy of the United States. Yeah, that’s what I want, to be lectured about war and being a “good neighbor” by a German. Their head honcho said they wouldn’t take part in a war against Iraq. Kind of nice to see them taking a pass on a war once in while.¬† Perhaps we needed to have the word “World” in front of War.¬† I think it’s time to bring our boys home from Germany.¬† Outside of the money we’d save, we’d make the Germans “like” us a lot more, after they started paying the bills for their own defense. Last time I checked, France isn’t too fond of us either.¬† They sort of liked us back on June 6th, 1944, though, didn’t they? If you don’t think so, see how nicely they take care of the enormous American cemeteries up above the Normandy beaches.¬† For those of you who’ve studied history, we also have a few cemeteries in places like Belleau Woods and Chateau Thierry also.¬† For those of you who haven’t studied it, that was >from World War One the first time Europe screwed up, and we bailed out the French.¬† That’s where the US Marines got the title ‘Devil Dogs’ or, if you still care about what¬† the Germans think, Teufelhunde.”¬†¬† I hope I spelled that right; sure wouldn’t want to offend anyone, least of all a German. Come to think of it, when Europe couldn’t take care of their Bosnian problem recently, guess who had to help out there also.¬† Last time I checked, our kids are still there.¬† I sort of remember they said they would be out in a year. Gee, how time flies when you’re having fun. Now we hear that the South Koreans aren’t too happy with us either. They “liked” us a lot better, of course, in June 1950. It took more than 50,000 Americans killed in Korea to help give them the lifestyle they currently enjoy, but then who’s counting? I think it’s also time to bring the boys home from there.¬† There are about 37,000 young Americans on the DMZ separating the South Koreans from their¬† “brothers” up north. Maybe if we leave, they can begin to participate in the “good life” that North Korea currently enjoys. Uh huh. Sure. I also understand that a good portion of the Arab/Moslem world now doesn’t “like” us either.¬† Did anyone ever sit down and determine what we would have to do to get them to like us? Ask them what they would like us to do. Die? Commit ritual suicide? Bend over? Maybe we should follow the advice of our dimwitted, dullest knife in the drawer, Senator Patty Murray, and build more roads, hospitals, day care centers, and orphanages like Osama bin Laden does. What with all the orphans Osama has created, the least he can do is build some places to put them. Senator Stupid says if we would only “emulate” Osama, the Arab world would love us. Sorry Patty, in addition to the fact that we already do all of those things around the world and have been doing them for over sixty years, I don’t take public transportation, and I certainly wouldn’t take it with a bomb strapped to the guy next to me.¬†¬† Don’t get me wrong: I’m not in favor of going to war.¬† Been there, done that.¬† Several times, in fact. But I think we ought to have some polls in this country about other countries, and see if we “like” THEM.¬† Problem is, if you listed the countries, not only wouldn’t the average American know if he liked them or not, he wouldn’t be able to find them.¬† If we’re supposed to worry about them, how about them worrying about us? We were nice to the North Koreans in 1994, as we followed the policies of Neville Clinton.¬† And it seemed to work; they didn’t restart nuclear weapons program for a whole year or so.¬† In the meantime, we fed them when they were starving, and put oil in their stoves when they were freezing. In a recent visit to Norway, I engaged in a really fun debate with my cousin’s son, a student at a Norwegian University.¬† I was lectured to by this thankless squirt about the American “Empire,”
and scolded about dropping the atomic bomb on the Japanese.¬† I reminded him that empires usually keep the stuff they take; we don’t, and back in 1945 most Norwegians thought dropping ANY kind of bomb on Germany or Japan was a good idea. I also reminded him that my uncle, his grandfather, and others in our family spent a significant time in Sachsenhausen concentration camp, courtesy of the Germans, and they didn’t all survive.¬† I further reminded him that if it weren’t for the “American Empire” he would probably be speaking German or Russian. Sorry about the rambling, but I just took an unofficial poll here at our house, and we don’t seem to like anyone.
—– Original Message —–
From: jon ludlam
To: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Marko,
You got this one right, but he is not an idiot, he is a MORON according to
the Canadian Prime Minister.

Respectfully Yours,
Jon Ludlam
>
Which country has large quantities of nuclear, chemical and biological
weapons, and an idiot in charge??
<

From: “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 12:55:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko,
Take your un American attitude and FUCK OFF! In fact go back to Russia where you came from where the Mafia is growing at full strength!
Yes, America is not perfect, then why the hell are the immigrants flooding our gates!
We may not be perfect, but who needs to be liked, just respect us or get your ass kicked!
The Idiot in Charge here, is in office for a limited amount of time only, the idiots in charge in countries like Iraq and N. Korea are there until they die, then they pass on the power to their children!¬†The rest of the Middle East¬†do not want us to take out Iraq, as we have the nasty habit of installing Democracies, something that tends to threaten their own ways as there is nothing but Dictatorships over their. Nuts like the one in N. Korea we can do without. The Afghanis don’t know anything except about killing one another and we should pull out and let them kill themselves. Everyone has short memories regarding the good the US does!
But I will tell you something, if I had my way, I’m pull out all US troops from all over the world, and let everyone handle their own problems. Then I would leave the useless UN and NATO, and secure our borders. If someone fucks with us, I’d nuke them and let it go at that! One can not be a cure all, but one does not need to take shit either!

—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq

Hey, I can’t get it that you can be THAT blind!

read your E-mail once again and try to understand what you’ve written!! You’re blind, aren’t you? It’s not France and Germany selling equipment to Iraq, it’s your beloved, spotless USA!! What do you think, how your secret agencies know what Iraq has? Because they’ve sold that (whatever) to it!

And don’t forget that during the WW2 USA was the leading nation, proud with democracy and so on… but now, where’s the democracy? All you have is a lot of fear, a president that was not elected by people but by oil lobbies (and as you wrote yourself, he doesn’t want no alternative energy around, because he’s a Mafia member), and threatened “American way of life”.

And everything seems to be even worse in the future :-((

Which country has large quantities of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, and an idiot in charge??

I’ve seen results of an opinion pool yesterday. Question was: Who is at the moment the biggest threat to world peace? And almost 90% decided it is USA, 7% were for Iraq and 3% for Corea.

Now, think a little before you advertise a country which wants to play the role of world policeman, judge and prosecutor in one “person”… It’s like somebody says that you’re bad just because you don’t share his opinion, then he sentences you to beating, and finally beats the living hell out of you. Oh, and yes, he’s two heads bigger than you (and much stronger, too) and carries a machine-gun with him all the time…

Take some IBO and get your attic in order, that’s my advice! Maybe then you’ll get rid of brainwashing!!

Marko

At 15:09 18.2.2003, you wrote:
Ustanova,
The USA is continuing the Desert Storm War, because the UN is acting like the League of Nations after WWI, when the Allies kicked Germany’s butt. Germany agreed not to rearm and Hitler broke that treaty and WWII came about.
Today, with the Vichy French and the Neo Nazi Germany, who both sell equipment to Iraq that helps them break their treaty with the now useless UN and NATO, because of the gutless French and German, both of whom have short memories! The US left over 150,000 men buried in France helping them to get rid of the Nazi’s and Germany was built up by the US after the war – read your history!
If the US so deemed it, we would be running on alternative energy today, the technology is here, unfortunately, people like Bush and Cheney have their personal fortunes in the Oil Mafia!
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:42 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Iraq

Hi all,

perhaps you don’t know, but USA are after Iraq not because of oil, but
because Iraq decided not to keep money reserves in US& anymore, but
switched to EURO. This made US$ a few % cheaper… and all OPEC countries
are thinking to switch to EURO, too, and that would make US$ drop for
40%… So, USA has to prevent this, ergo – Bush is after Iraq.

Can’t find the link, but here’s another link which you’ll love! Well, most
of you, anywayz ;-))
http://lollygagger.org/artists/manfish/GeorgieW.swf

Marko

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Savor the Irony
Date: February 18, 2003 at 11:42:25 AM EST
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 6:32 PM -0800 2/17/03, A J Dietterle wrote:
Hello everyone. We have treated twenty people now at the Iboga
Therapy house, and Linette, one of our fine facillitators, has also
been profoundly affected by her ibogaine experience (2,800 mg INDRA
extract) three weeks ago also.

I shall try to prepare a report for the group here, (lest you all
get distracted by the war coming up shortly), on our observations
and experiences.

For example, the patients most likely to experience alot of nausea
are big bodied crack cocaine users, those experiencing the least
nausea are wiry thin heroin/methadone users. We think the large
people have fat tisues in the stomach which the acidic extract
agitates, plus the cocaine people have usually put alot of the
substance through their body where the liver and stomach process
fairly large amounts over time. If you think of it, its usually
larger bodied, overeating people that get ‘heartburn’/’acid reflux’.

We have had good results from the patients with crack cocaine
problems when we give them a dose ranging from 3,000 – 5,200 mg
INDRA extract, plus a daily supplement of 20 mg Ibogaine
hydrochloride for 20 days therafter the 48 hour mark of the original
dose.

By the bye, I need to get hold of www.indra.dk but I cannot get the
website to work. Does anyone know how I may contact him?

Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House

P.S. If anyone you know or yourself would like to receive IBOGA
THERAPY to treat repetitive, self-destructive behaviour
patterns/drug dependecy, please apply to our health profile screener
at sandra@ibogatherapyhouse.org

Our website is at www.ibogatherapyhouse.org and will be filling up
with content shortly.

DETAILS Magazine is here at the Iboga Therapy House writing about
our work. The author, Gary Greenburg, is extremely well informed
about the ibogaine situation.

DETAILS is a successor publication to the SOHO WEEKLY NEWS. To savor
the irony, check out ¬†“The War With the Junkies” @
http://www.cures-not-wars.org/ibogaine/chap01.html

If Tom Forcade had started Ibogaine treatments, instead of getting
all depressed, he almost certainly wouldn’t have shot himself in the
head. His vision was occluded, though…he would not read the PKDick
books I gave him, for instance, and probably never really listened
when Howard told him about Ibogaine. Maybe it was the coke. I don’t
remember whether  A SCANNER DARKLY came out in paperback that summer
or in ’79, but I know I gave him NOW WAIT FOR LAST YEAR, which is the
most Ibogainesque of Dick’s drug books, especially in terms of what’s
happening with the attempt to come up with non-psychedelic
ibogaine–18-MC and noribogaine.

Can’t have people traveling in time, now, can we?

Kudos to Mark for doing it right the second time around.

Dana/cnw

p.s.: Sara, is that spelled Voerden?

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 12:50:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jon,

I tried to watch my language…

;-))

Marko

At 18:35 18.2.2003, you wrote:
Marko,
You got this one right, but he is not an idiot, he is a MORON according to
the Canadian Prime Minister.

Respectfully Yours,
Jon Ludlam
>
Which country has large quantities of nuclear, chemical and biological
weapons, and an idiot in charge??
<

From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 12:38:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

===== Original Message From jon ludlam <seraphina@compuserve.com> =====
Marko,
You got this one right, but he is not an idiot, he is a MORON according to
the Canadian Prime Minister.

Respectfully Yours,
Jon Ludlam

Which country has large quantities of nuclear, chemical and biological
weapons, and an idiot in charge??
<

eheheh. I always liked Canada, but now I REALLY like Canada =)

————————————————————————-
— League of Surrealistic Discord Records — http://www.lsdrecords.com —
=========================================================================

From: jon ludlam <seraphina@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 12:35:40 PM EST
To: “INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Marko,
You got this one right, but he is not an idiot, he is a MORON according to
the Canadian Prime Minister.

Respectfully Yours,
Jon Ludlam

Which country has large quantities of nuclear, chemical and biological
weapons, and an idiot in charge??
<

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iraq
Date: February 18, 2003 at 12:12:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey, I can’t get it that you can be THAT blind!

read your E-mail once again and try to understand what you’ve written!! You’re blind, aren’t you? It’s not France and Germany selling equipment to Iraq, it’s your beloved, spotless USA!! What do you think, how your secret agencies know what Iraq has? Because they’ve sold that (whatever) to it!

And don’t forget that during the WW2 USA was the leading nation, proud with democracy and so on… but now, where’s the democracy? All you have is a lot of fear, a president that was not elected by people but by oil lobbies (and as you wrote yourself, he doesn’t want no alternative energy around, because he’s a Mafia member), and threatened “American way of life”.

And everything seems to be even worse in the future :-((

Which country has large quantities of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, and an idiot in charge??

I’ve seen results of an opinion pool yesterday. Question was: Who is at the moment the biggest threat to world peace? And almost 90% decided it is USA, 7% were for Iraq and 3% for Corea.

Now, think a little before you advertise a country which wants to play the role of world policeman, judge and prosecutor in one “person”… It’s like somebody says that you’re bad just because you don’t share his opinion, then he sentences you to beating, and finally beats the living hell out of you. Oh, and yes, he’s two heads bigger than you (and much stronger, too) and carries a machine-gun with him all the time…

Take some IBO and get your attic in order, that’s my advice! Maybe then you’ll get rid of brainwashing!!

Marko

At 15:09 18.2.2003, you wrote:
Ustanova,
The USA is continuing the Desert Storm War, because the UN is acting like the League of Nations after WWI, when the Allies kicked Germany’s butt. Germany agreed not to rearm and Hitler broke that treaty and WWII came about.
Today, with the Vichy French and the Neo Nazi Germany, who both sell equipment to Iraq that helps them break their treaty with the now useless UN and NATO, because of the gutless French and German, both of whom have short memories! The US left over 150,000 men buried in France helping them to get rid of the Nazi’s and Germany was built up by the US after the war – read your history!
If the US so deemed it, we would be running on alternative energy today, the technology is here, unfortunately, people like Bush and Cheney have their personal fortunes in the Oil Mafia!
—– Original Message —–
From: Ustanova Iboga
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:42 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Iraq

Hi all,

perhaps you don’t know, but USA are after Iraq not because of oil, but
because Iraq decided not to keep money reserves in US& anymore, but
switched to EURO. This made US$ a few % cheaper… and all OPEC countries
are thinking to switch to EURO, too, and that would make US$ drop for
40%… So, USA has to prevent this, ergo – Bush is after Iraq.

Can’t find the link, but here’s another link which you’ll love! Well, most
of you, anywayz ;-))
http://lollygagger.org/artists/manfish/GeorgieW.swf

Marko

From: S√łren L√łvfelt <isl46726@image.dk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] IT IS http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM
Date: February 18, 2003 at 12:07:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Brett..
I have ordered HCL to be on da safe side.I had heard what you just
wrote.Thanks for the info.:o)

Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] IT IS http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM

Soren,

EthnoGARDEN (at ethnogarden.com) is in Canada, they
sell their own flavor of ibogaine extract (pans out at
about 30% alkaloids), iboga root (bark?) as well as
ibogaine HCL.

EthnoPLANET (at ethnoplanet.dk) sells what appears to
be a low quality iboga root, there were negative
reports posted about their product. IMO, not a good
idea to try a detox with it even if they will ship it
to you… If you did (try) it may require several
ounces (or more) of the stuff.

Brett

— S√łren_L√łvfelt <isl46726@image.dk> wrote:
Its not ethnogarden
Its www.ethnoplanet.dk
Sorry

Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] IT IS
http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM

— “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
http://ethnogarden.dk  does not work, anyone
else
have a place to go?
—– Original Message —–
From: S√łren L√łvfelt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views
the
anti-war movement.

As to the best of my knowledge,Indra is not
open
anymore.
However you can obtain exstract,and HCL at
http://ethnogarden.dk

I hope you can use this.:o)

S√łren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Moore
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views
the
anti-war movement.

Sweetheart, what connotation does that
imply?

—– Original Message —–
From: S√łren L√łvfelt
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 1:57 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views
the anti-war movement.

Sounds like a very good move.Ibo will be
much
better  for everybody.Okay some could get their
Methadone,but most people would benefit from Ibo
I`m
sure.

Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views
the anti-war movement.

Have you ever read your history? The
lack of
might have had an ill effect upon you!
No sweetheart, I don’t do drugs, but I
am
most certainly attempting to get the local
government to drop their methadone program and
use
ibogaine.
—– Original Message —–
From: Sandra K
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:16
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

Question, have you tried Ibogaine yet?
For
some reason, I think it may have a very profound
effect on you…

—– Original Message —–
From: “A. Artze Associates”
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:56:46 -0400
To:
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

Let’s see, in WWII, the French lasted
about twenty minutes with the Germans, we came
in
and assisted them while half became the Vichy
government full of yellow stripped backed
bastards!
We lost over 150,000 of our men on French soil.
The
school where the signing of the surrender of the
Germans today does not even have a sign posting
the
historical value of that building.
Between the Vichy French and the Neo
Nazi
Germans, who both sell to Saddam equipment to
make
WMD, had you gone simply along with the USA,
Saddam
would have capitulated! Now he is clamoring a
win
just as he did when the UN forces stopped short
of
30 miles outside of Baghdad during the Gulf War.
This is not a preemptive strike we are
about to give Iraq on or about March 1st, it
will be
a week of darkness and we own the night! It will
be
the continuation of the Gulf War, that the
bastard
Saddam had claimed success to! Then went over
ten
years of Saddam stroking the UN and went about
his
business building up WMD with the help of the
French
and the Germans!
Should Iraq use the WMD to defend
himself,
then it will be a terrible way to find out that
we
were right, terrible because there will be lots
of
collateral damage as we will level Baghdad,
something that could have been avoided if the
yellow
bellied French would have had the balls to side
with
the USA!
You don’t seem to know your history!
At
the end of WWI, Germany conceded to disarm and
never
to arm themselves again. Hitler (a Saddam look
alike!) just went about his business arming to
the
teeth, and the League of Nations did nothing,
just
as the UN and NATO are doing today – wake up!
We made a big mistake in being loyal
to
the French in Viet Nam, Ho Chen Min, loved
America
and for what it stood for. He tried to get close
to
us, but out of loyalty to the Damn French we did
not. He was not a Communist, but a Nationalist,
he
was drawn to Russia because he needed assistance
in
his fight to unite his country, we blew it
there!
Sorry JT, but this is one war we need!
After 9/11, if the Muslims want peace (Islam in
Arabic) then they better earn it. The other
Middle
East Arab countries do not want us in Iraq, we
have
a nasty habit of installing Democracies, a form
of
government that threatens all of the
Dictatorships
there!
—– Original Message —–
From: Joshua Tinnin
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 4:49
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the
right
views the anti-war movement.

Saddam is a menace equal to the
combination of Hitler and Stalin and needs to be
taken out.

Hogwash. Pure bullshit.

Sorry, didn’t mean to drag out a
political thread, but seriously, that’s
unmitigated
government-sponsored propaganda you’re spewing,
and
it’s even more hyperbolic than they are about
it.
Britain, and later the US, carved up what was
left
of the Ottoman Empire into the puppet
nation-states
that exist today in the Middle East. Now, the US
is
considering doing it again, no matter that the
hegemony never ended, and that our efforts to
support “freedom” included bringing Saddam to
power,
helping to form Al Q’aeda and supporting the
fundamentalist Muslims against the Soviets,
which
later became the Taliban. Oh, and the fact that
we
also supported the Shah of Iran for a while,
until
it was no longer convenient. Meanwhile, our
government says that the democratically-elected
Chavez in Venezuela is illegitimate, and has
been
involved in attempted coups to overthrow him, as
well as instigating and engineering anti-Chavez
protests. He’s not illegitim! ate in the least,
but
he does not kowtow to the US at all, which is
frustrating oil barons who want a piece of it.
But
Uribe in Colombia is a different story, and
we’ve
been more than happy to support his chainsaw
paramilitary to straighten things out, you know,
in
the name of freedom. Well, actually, it’s
because
there is a pipeline there which is crucial to
the US
and to Colombia’s military, which has been
attacked
by rebels repeatedly to hit the government and
foreign investors the hardest where it hurts
most,
in the pocket. The government takes care of
things
down there by hiring brutal mercenaries to
terrorize
the rebels and any civilians who are around them
or
who happen to be in the way, all with tacit US
acceptance, of course. And this is all just the
tip
of the iceberg.

You might want to read some of what
Mark
Twain wrote about the US’ intervention in the
Phillipines, which was much more similar to the
current situation than it is to WWII and Hitler,
or
Stalin. We were nation-building there, too. But,
just to be clear, it’s never a good idea to
trust
your leaders when they are waging pre-emptive
war in
the name of “freedom,” because that’s never the
real
reason. It’s imperialistic. If you don’t believe
me,
I can point you to Perle and Wolfowitz’s vision
to
re-shape the ME, which is driving current
policy. We
might as well be Britain talking about Africa,
but
nobody seems to be thinking about the last
Empire,
amd how it badly bungled things (which helped
hasten
its demise). And most of this change of
perspective
from a Republic to an Empire stems from Woodrow
Wilson’s foreign policy, one of an imperialistic
power, acting with the supposed benefit of the
world, but really acting purely out! of
self-interest (which is to be expected).

And, every Empire falls eventually,
even
the US. Dubya’s just getting us to the end that
much
faster.

– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003
2:07
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the
right
views the anti-war movement.

On or about March 1st, we will
attack
Iraq. It should not be referred to as
“preemptive”
strike but rather the continuation of the Gulf
War,
as they did not adhere to their promises when we
kicked their butts. This is deja vue, the
useless
League of Nations after WWI when Germany agreed
never to rearm. The League did nothing and WWII
came
about. Saddam is a menace equal to the
combination
of Hitler and Stalin and needs to be taken out.
If
the UN has not got the balls, then they are in
the
same league as the useless League of Nations.
The
Vichy French, and the Neo Nazi Germans be
damned!
They have short memories!
Should Iraq use WMD against the
US, it
would be a terrible way to show the World we
were
right, terrible because we will wipe out Baghdad
from the face of this Earth!
If the Muslims want a Jihad, by
God
that is what they will get. So that one day my
great
grand son will ask his father, daddy, what’s a
Muslim?
Now kindly take my name off this
useless chat line or whatever it is called!

——————————————————————

—– Original Message —–
From: preston peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003
4:36
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the
right views the anti-war movement.

http://www.drugwar.com/nyciraqprotest.shtm

“The real patriots are standing
up
in the shadow of the United Nations today
and saying Give Peace a Chance”
Rev.
Al Sharpton, speaking at the NYC Peace
Demonstration, February 15, 2003
“Martin Luther King once said
that
if mankind doesn’t put an end to war, war
will put an end to Mankind.”
Harry
Bellefonte, speaking at the NYC Peace
Demonstration, February 15, 2003
New York Joins the World on the
Road
Towards Peace-
Defying Court Order, Hundreds of
Thousands March in NYC, Joining With
Millions World-Wide Who Today
Said
“No War!”
by Preston Peet
for DrugWar.com
February 15, 2003
(image)
Adam and Jeremy want Bush to
pursue
Peace
If the city officials of New
York
really were trying to stop people from
marching against war on Iraq by
refusing to issue a permit, and thought
having U.S. District Judge
Barbara
S. ! Jones rule against allowing a march
permit to be issued would stop
marchers, they failed miserably. With figures
ranging from a 100,000
guesstimate
from an NYPD spokesperson, to attendee
estimates of around 750,000,
people
young and old, of myriad nationalities,
races and creeds, filled the
streets
of mid-town Manhattan today with a
veritable carnival of civil
disobedience for peace. Ignoring the
court-ordered ban on marching,
protestors exercised their Constitutional
right to public protest,
marching,
telling Bush and the world in firm, loud
voices that not all US citizens
are
blindly buying into any proposed
pre-emptive strike and a
subsequent
war against Iraq, and will not be cowed
into silence.
snip-
Read Article and See Photos at
above
URL

—– Original Message —–
From: Vector Vector
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 15,
2003
10:50 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] ! how the
right
views the anti-war movement.

this is so sick. but read it.
the
other side speaks.

.:vector:.

Volume 1
Thursday,
February 13, 2003              By
David
Horowitz

This is the first issue of The
War
Room in its
new
non-partisan format, now
published
under the auspices of
www.frontpagemag.com. The War
Room
is a tactical guide for
conservatives
and centrists in framing
issues
that divide our nation and affect its
future. We are now engaged in
a
war that may last a generation,
against
international foes whose main
weapon is terror and whose principal
targets are civilians. In
these
circumstances it is vital that a
bi-partisan cons! ensus be
formed
on defense of the homeland. One
requirement of this defense is
greater unity on the home front. It is
important that domestic
issues,
which have the potential to divide
Americans, be resolved in a
manner
that strengthens rather than
weakens
the nation. The divisive
issues in
American politics are those that
tend
to divide us along the fault
lines
of class, gender and race. The War
Room believes that these fault
lines do not run along a
Democrat-Republican bias but
are
the product of a political left that
is
hostile to the national
foundations. The War Room believes that the
values of American
individualism
and democracy, rooted in the
Founding,
form the basis for our
national
unity and are the essential elements
of
our national strength. *

The “Anti-War” Movement
Is A Bigger Problem Than You
Think
For over a year our country
has
been at war with a terrorist foe that
can infiltrate our borders
with
weapons of mass destruction. We are
divided in our homeland on two
fronts. Reasonable people may disagree
over tactics and priorities in
fighting this war — for example over
which hostile agency or state
to
take on, and at which point in time.
There have been critics of the
Administration’s war policy from both
the
Democrat and Republican side
of
the aisle. But these critics share a
common concern for the defense
of
this country, and in the end they
support our government and our
nation against its foes.

Not so the other opposition to
the
war, which is a radical movement
with
Marxist roots, whose origins
go
back to the Vietnam War and whose
political base is American
universities. This opposition to the war
on
terror manifested itself
withi! n
weeks of 9/11 with aim of opposing an
American military response to
the
al-Qaeda attacks. Its agendas are
not
“pacifist” and are not
inspired by
dissatisfaction with any
particular
American war or policy, but
with
the American system itself. It is a
movement which cannot be
appeased
and which is willing to collaborate
with America’s enemies.

Every major “anti-war”
demonstration to date, including the
demonstrations on the Capitol
Mall
in October and January has been
organized and controlled by a
self-styled Communist group called the
Workers World Party, and its
front
“International A.N.S.W.E.R.” The
figurehead of this
organization is
former Attorney General Ramsey
Clark
and its organizer is Brian
Becker,
a member of the secretariat of the
World World Party. The WWP is
aligned with the North Korean Communist
regime and along with its
figur!
ehead has supported the North
Vietnamese
torturers of American POWS,
the
Ayatollah Khomeni regime in Iran,
Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam
Hussein.

At the Mall, the speakers –
all
selected by the Workers World Party –
denounced America as an
imperialist aggressor and “the axis of evil,”
and called for “regime change”
and
“revolution” in the United States.
An
imam from a Washington DC
mosque
led the crowd in chants of “Allahu
Akbar,” which is the cry of
the
suicide bombers as they blow up
innocent
civilian targets. Mohammed
Atta,
the leader of the 9/11 suicide
bombers,
gave these instructions to his
team: “When the confrontation begins,
strike like champions who do
not
want to go back to this world.
Shout,
‘Allahu Akbar,’ because this
strikes fear in the hearts of the
non-believers.”

John Conyers, the ranking
Democrat
on! the House Judiciary Committee
was
a featured speaker at the
Workers
World Party “peace” rally, as was
former Democratic
Congresswoman
Cynthia McKinney. Representative
Charles
Rangel, the ranking Democrat
on
the House Ways and Means Committee
sent
a letter of support. In a
sister
demonstration in San Francisco, also
organized by the Workers World
Party, California State Senator,
Democrat
John Burton, told the
protesters
that the President of the United
States
was “full of s___” and was
“f—ing America.”

So appalling were these
demonstrations that older members of the left
disassociated themselves from
this
movement in articles that appeared
in
leftwing magazines like
Salon.com
and the L.A. Weekly (the latter
article was written by David
Corn,
Washington editor of The Nation).

On February 15, an anti-war
protest will ! be held in New York City,
organized by a new group
called
“United for Peace and Justice.” This
group is headed by Leslie
Cagan, a
Sixties Marxist with a long
history
of supporting Communist
causes.
She was a member of the Venceremos
Brigades organized by Cuban
Intelligence. She was a member of the
Committees for Correspondence,
a
faction of the Communist Party USA,
and
she is co-chair of the
National
Network on Cuba an organization whose
purpose is propaganda and
political support for the Castro
dictatorship.
Cagan has warned that, “If
marches
do not work, we will escalate. We
will have to do things to
disrupt
the normal flow of life in this
country.”(NYTimes, 2/04/03)
This
threat of sabotage should not be
taken
lightly given the history of
more
than 1,000 domestic bombings during
the Vietnam War.

The agendas of the so-called
“peace ! movement” are pro-Communist and
anti-American. Its organizers
have
worked with America’s enemies in
the
past and are continuing to do
so
in the midst of this war. This is
the
very definition of a political
“fifth column.” Honest dissenters and
Americans concerned about the
future of their country should take a
hard
look at these protests and
those
who support them.

_____

THE WAR ROOM is a guide to
strategy and tactics for conservatives and
centrists in framing issues
that
divide our nation and affect its
future. Email subscriptions
are
$30 for one year or 48 issues. Click

<http://www.campaignsolutions.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/profile.d
2w/input?can_ref=738> here to
subsribe now! David Horowitz is the
author
of several bo! oks, including
Radical Son, The Politics of Bad Faith
and
Uncivil Wars.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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Valentine’s Day
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From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] IT IS http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM
Date: February 18, 2003 at 11:54:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

===== Original Message From S√łren L√łvfelt <isl46726@image.dk> =====
Its not ethnogarden
Its www.ethnoplanet.dk
Sorry

There is also www.ethnoplanet.com … a Canadian company which seems to carry
the raw rootbark, the iboga extract, AND the ibogaine HCL…

————————————————————————-
— League of Surrealistic Discord Records — http://www.lsdrecords.com —
=========================================================================

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] IT IS http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM
Date: February 18, 2003 at 11:51:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Soren,

EthnoGARDEN (at ethnogarden.com) is in Canada, they
sell their own flavor of ibogaine extract (pans out at
about 30% alkaloids), iboga root (bark?) as well as
ibogaine HCL.

EthnoPLANET (at ethnoplanet.dk) sells what appears to
be a low quality iboga root, there were negative
reports posted about their product. IMO, not a good
idea to try a detox with it even if they will ship it
to you… If you did (try) it may require several
ounces (or more) of the stuff.

Brett

— S√łren_L√łvfelt <isl46726@image.dk> wrote:
Its not ethnogarden
Its www.ethnoplanet.dk
Sorry

Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] IT IS
http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM

— “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
http://ethnogarden.dk  does not work, anyone
else
have a place to go?
—– Original Message —–
From: S√łren L√łvfelt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views
the
anti-war movement.

As to the best of my knowledge,Indra is not
open
anymore.
However you can obtain exstract,and HCL at
http://ethnogarden.dk

I hope you can use this.:o)

S√łren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Moore
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views
the
anti-war movement.

Sweetheart, what connotation does that
imply?

—– Original Message —–
From: S√łren L√łvfelt
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 1:57 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views
the anti-war movement.

Sounds like a very good move.Ibo will be
much
better  for everybody.Okay some could get their
Methadone,but most people would benefit from Ibo
I`m
sure.

Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views
the anti-war movement.

Have you ever read your history? The
lack of
might have had an ill effect upon you!
No sweetheart, I don’t do drugs, but I
am
most certainly attempting to get the local
government to drop their methadone program and
use
ibogaine.
—– Original Message —–
From: Sandra K
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:16
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

Question, have you tried Ibogaine yet?
For
some reason, I think it may have a very profound
effect on you…

—– Original Message —–
From: “A. Artze Associates”
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:56:46 -0400
To:
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

Let’s see, in WWII, the French lasted
about twenty minutes with the Germans, we came
in
and assisted them while half became the Vichy
government full of yellow stripped backed
bastards!
We lost over 150,000 of our men on French soil.
The
school where the signing of the surrender of the
Germans today does not even have a sign posting
the
historical value of that building.
Between the Vichy French and the Neo
Nazi
Germans, who both sell to Saddam equipment to
make
WMD, had you gone simply along with the USA,
Saddam
would have capitulated! Now he is clamoring a
win
just as he did when the UN forces stopped short
of
30 miles outside of Baghdad during the Gulf War.
This is not a preemptive strike we are
about to give Iraq on or about March 1st, it
will be
a week of darkness and we own the night! It will
be
the continuation of the Gulf War, that the
bastard
Saddam had claimed success to! Then went over
ten
years of Saddam stroking the UN and went about
his
business building up WMD with the help of the
French
and the Germans!
Should Iraq use the WMD to defend
himself,
then it will be a terrible way to find out that
we
were right, terrible because there will be lots
of
collateral damage as we will level Baghdad,
something that could have been avoided if the
yellow
bellied French would have had the balls to side
with
the USA!
You don’t seem to know your history!
At
the end of WWI, Germany conceded to disarm and
never
to arm themselves again. Hitler (a Saddam look
alike!) just went about his business arming to
the
teeth, and the League of Nations did nothing,
just
as the UN and NATO are doing today – wake up!
We made a big mistake in being loyal
to
the French in Viet Nam, Ho Chen Min, loved
America
and for what it stood for. He tried to get close
to
us, but out of loyalty to the Damn French we did
not. He was not a Communist, but a Nationalist,
he
was drawn to Russia because he needed assistance
in
his fight to unite his country, we blew it
there!
Sorry JT, but this is one war we need!
After 9/11, if the Muslims want peace (Islam in
Arabic) then they better earn it. The other
Middle
East Arab countries do not want us in Iraq, we
have
a nasty habit of installing Democracies, a form
of
government that threatens all of the
Dictatorships
there!
—– Original Message —–
From: Joshua Tinnin
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 4:49
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the
right
views the anti-war movement.

Saddam is a menace equal to the
combination of Hitler and Stalin and needs to be
taken out.

Hogwash. Pure bullshit.

Sorry, didn’t mean to drag out a
political thread, but seriously, that’s
unmitigated
government-sponsored propaganda you’re spewing,
and
it’s even more hyperbolic than they are about
it.
Britain, and later the US, carved up what was
left
of the Ottoman Empire into the puppet
nation-states
that exist today in the Middle East. Now, the US
is
considering doing it again, no matter that the
hegemony never ended, and that our efforts to
support “freedom” included bringing Saddam to
power,
helping to form Al Q’aeda and supporting the
fundamentalist Muslims against the Soviets,
which
later became the Taliban. Oh, and the fact that
we
also supported the Shah of Iran for a while,
until
it was no longer convenient. Meanwhile, our
government says that the democratically-elected
Chavez in Venezuela is illegitimate, and has
been
involved in attempted coups to overthrow him, as
well as instigating and engineering anti-Chavez
protests. He’s not illegitim! ate in the least,
but
he does not kowtow to the US at all, which is
frustrating oil barons who want a piece of it.
But
Uribe in Colombia is a different story, and
we’ve
been more than happy to support his chainsaw
paramilitary to straighten things out, you know,
in
the name of freedom. Well, actually, it’s
because
there is a pipeline there which is crucial to
the US
and to Colombia’s military, which has been
attacked
by rebels repeatedly to hit the government and
foreign investors the hardest where it hurts
most,
in the pocket. The government takes care of
things
down there by hiring brutal mercenaries to
terrorize
the rebels and any civilians who are around them
or
who happen to be in the way, all with tacit US
acceptance, of course. And this is all just the
tip
of the iceberg.

You might want to read some of what
Mark
Twain wrote about the US’ intervention in the
Phillipines, which was much more similar to the
current situation than it is to WWII and Hitler,
or
Stalin. We were nation-building there, too. But,
just to be clear, it’s never a good idea to
trust
your leaders when they are waging pre-emptive
war in
the name of “freedom,” because that’s never the
real
reason. It’s imperialistic. If you don’t believe
me,
I can point you to Perle and Wolfowitz’s vision
to
re-shape the ME, which is driving current
policy. We
might as well be Britain talking about Africa,
but
nobody seems to be thinking about the last
Empire,
amd how it badly bungled things (which helped
hasten
its demise). And most of this change of
perspective
from a Republic to an Empire stems from Woodrow
Wilson’s foreign policy, one of an imperialistic
power, acting with the supposed benefit of the
world, but really acting purely out! of
self-interest (which is to be expected).

And, every Empire falls eventually,
even
the US. Dubya’s just getting us to the end that
much
faster.

– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003
2:07
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the
right
views the anti-war movement.

On or about March 1st, we will
attack
Iraq. It should not be referred to as
“preemptive”
strike but rather the continuation of the Gulf
War,
as they did not adhere to their promises when we
kicked their butts. This is deja vue, the
useless
League of Nations after WWI when Germany agreed
never to rearm. The League did nothing and WWII
came
about. Saddam is a menace equal to the
combination
of Hitler and Stalin and needs to be taken out.
If
the UN has not got the balls, then they are in
the
same league as the useless League of Nations.
The
Vichy French, and the Neo Nazi Germans be
damned!
They have short memories!
Should Iraq use WMD against the
US, it
would be a terrible way to show the World we
were
right, terrible because we will wipe out Baghdad
from the face of this Earth!
If the Muslims want a Jihad, by
God
that is what they will get. So that one day my
great
grand son will ask his father, daddy, what’s a
Muslim?
Now kindly take my name off this
useless chat line or whatever it is called!

——————————————————————

—– Original Message —–
From: preston peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003
4:36
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the
right views the anti-war movement.

http://www.drugwar.com/nyciraqprotest.shtm

“The real patriots are standing
up
in the shadow of the United Nations today
and saying Give Peace a Chance”
Rev.
Al Sharpton, speaking at the NYC Peace
Demonstration, February 15, 2003
“Martin Luther King once said
that
if mankind doesn’t put an end to war, war
will put an end to Mankind.”
Harry
Bellefonte, speaking at the NYC Peace
Demonstration, February 15, 2003
New York Joins the World on the
Road
Towards Peace-
Defying Court Order, Hundreds of
Thousands March in NYC, Joining With
Millions World-Wide Who Today
Said
“No War!”
by Preston Peet
for DrugWar.com
February 15, 2003
(image)
Adam and Jeremy want Bush to
pursue
Peace
If the city officials of New
York
really were trying to stop people from
marching against war on Iraq by
refusing to issue a permit, and thought
having U.S. District Judge
Barbara
S. ! Jones rule against allowing a march
permit to be issued would stop
marchers, they failed miserably. With figures
ranging from a 100,000
guesstimate
from an NYPD spokesperson, to attendee
estimates of around 750,000,
people
young and old, of myriad nationalities,
races and creeds, filled the
streets
of mid-town Manhattan today with a
veritable carnival of civil
disobedience for peace. Ignoring the
court-ordered ban on marching,
protestors exercised their Constitutional
right to public protest,
marching,
telling Bush and the world in firm, loud
voices that not all US citizens
are
blindly buying into any proposed
pre-emptive strike and a
subsequent
war against Iraq, and will not be cowed
into silence.
snip-
Read Article and See Photos at
above
URL

—– Original Message —–
From: Vector Vector
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 15,
2003
10:50 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] ! how the
right
views the anti-war movement.

this is so sick. but read it.
the
other side speaks.

.:vector:.

Volume 1
Thursday,
February 13, 2003              By
David
Horowitz

This is the first issue of The
War
Room in its
new
non-partisan format, now
published
under the auspices of
www.frontpagemag.com. The War
Room
is a tactical guide for
conservatives
and centrists in framing
issues
that divide our nation and affect its
future. We are now engaged in
a
war that may last a generation,
against
international foes whose main
weapon is terror and whose principal
targets are civilians. In
these
circumstances it is vital that a
bi-partisan cons! ensus be
formed
on defense of the homeland. One
requirement of this defense is
greater unity on the home front. It is
important that domestic
issues,
which have the potential to divide
Americans, be resolved in a
manner
that strengthens rather than
weakens
the nation. The divisive
issues in
American politics are those that
tend
to divide us along the fault
lines
of class, gender and race. The War
Room believes that these fault
lines do not run along a
Democrat-Republican bias but
are
the product of a political left that
is
hostile to the national
foundations. The War Room believes that the
values of American
individualism
and democracy, rooted in the
Founding,
form the basis for our
national
unity and are the essential elements
of
our national strength. *

The “Anti-War” Movement
Is A Bigger Problem Than You
Think
For over a year our country
has
been at war with a terrorist foe that
can infiltrate our borders
with
weapons of mass destruction. We are
divided in our homeland on two
fronts. Reasonable people may disagree
over tactics and priorities in
fighting this war — for example over
which hostile agency or state
to
take on, and at which point in time.
There have been critics of the
Administration’s war policy from both
the
Democrat and Republican side
of
the aisle. But these critics share a
common concern for the defense
of
this country, and in the end they
support our government and our
nation against its foes.

Not so the other opposition to
the
war, which is a radical movement
with
Marxist roots, whose origins
go
back to the Vietnam War and whose
political base is American
universities. This opposition to the war
on
terror manifested itself
withi! n
weeks of 9/11 with aim of opposing an
American military response to
the
al-Qaeda attacks. Its agendas are
not
“pacifist” and are not
inspired by
dissatisfaction with any
particular
American war or policy, but
with
the American system itself. It is a
movement which cannot be
appeased
and which is willing to collaborate
with America’s enemies.

Every major “anti-war”
demonstration to date, including the
demonstrations on the Capitol
Mall
in October and January has been
organized and controlled by a
self-styled Communist group called the
Workers World Party, and its
front
“International A.N.S.W.E.R.” The
figurehead of this
organization is
former Attorney General Ramsey
Clark
and its organizer is Brian
Becker,
a member of the secretariat of the
World World Party. The WWP is
aligned with the North Korean Communist
regime and along with its
figur!
ehead has supported the North
Vietnamese
torturers of American POWS,
the
Ayatollah Khomeni regime in Iran,
Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam
Hussein.

At the Mall, the speakers –
all
selected by the Workers World Party –
denounced America as an
imperialist aggressor and “the axis of evil,”
and called for “regime change”
and
“revolution” in the United States.
An
imam from a Washington DC
mosque
led the crowd in chants of “Allahu
Akbar,” which is the cry of
the
suicide bombers as they blow up
innocent
civilian targets. Mohammed
Atta,
the leader of the 9/11 suicide
bombers,
gave these instructions to his
team: “When the confrontation begins,
strike like champions who do
not
want to go back to this world.
Shout,
‘Allahu Akbar,’ because this
strikes fear in the hearts of the
non-believers.”

John Conyers, the ranking
Democrat
on! the House Judiciary Committee
was
a featured speaker at the
Workers
World Party “peace” rally, as was
former Democratic
Congresswoman
Cynthia McKinney. Representative
Charles
Rangel, the ranking Democrat
on
the House Ways and Means Committee
sent
a letter of support. In a
sister
demonstration in San Francisco, also
organized by the Workers World
Party, California State Senator,
Democrat
John Burton, told the
protesters
that the President of the United
States
was “full of s___” and was
“f—ing America.”

So appalling were these
demonstrations that older members of the left
disassociated themselves from
this
movement in articles that appeared
in
leftwing magazines like
Salon.com
and the L.A. Weekly (the latter
article was written by David
Corn,
Washington editor of The Nation).

On February 15, an anti-war
protest will ! be held in New York City,
organized by a new group
called
“United for Peace and Justice.” This
group is headed by Leslie
Cagan, a
Sixties Marxist with a long
history
of supporting Communist
causes.
She was a member of the Venceremos
Brigades organized by Cuban
Intelligence. She was a member of the
Committees for Correspondence,
a
faction of the Communist Party USA,
and
she is co-chair of the
National
Network on Cuba an organization whose
purpose is propaganda and
political support for the Castro
dictatorship.
Cagan has warned that, “If
marches
do not work, we will escalate. We
will have to do things to
disrupt
the normal flow of life in this
country.”(NYTimes, 2/04/03)
This
threat of sabotage should not be
taken
lightly given the history of
more
than 1,000 domestic bombings during
the Vietnam War.

The agendas of the so-called
“peace ! movement” are pro-Communist and
anti-American. Its organizers
have
worked with America’s enemies in
the
past and are continuing to do
so
in the midst of this war. This is
the
very definition of a political
“fifth column.” Honest dissenters and
Americans concerned about the
future of their country should take a
hard
look at these protests and
those
who support them.

_____

THE WAR ROOM is a guide to
strategy and tactics for conservatives and
centrists in framing issues
that
divide our nation and affect its
future. Email subscriptions
are
$30 for one year or 48 issues. Click

<http://www.campaignsolutions.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/profile.d
2w/input?can_ref=738> here to
subsribe now! David Horowitz is the
author
of several bo! oks, including
Radical Son, The Politics of Bad Faith
and
Uncivil Wars.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers
for
Valentine’s Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

____________________________________________________
Get your free email from
http://www.graffiti.net

Powered by Outblaze

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping – Send Flowers for Valentine’s Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From: S√łren L√łvfelt <isl46726@image.dk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] IT IS http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM
Date: February 18, 2003 at 11:04:13 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Its not ethnogarden
Its www.ethnoplanet.dk
Sorry

Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] IT IS http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM

— “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
http://ethnogarden.dk  does not work, anyone else
have a place to go?
—– Original Message —–
From: S√łren L√łvfelt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views the
anti-war movement.

As to the best of my knowledge,Indra is not open
anymore.
However you can obtain exstract,and HCL at
http://ethnogarden.dk

I hope you can use this.:o)

S√łren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Moore
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views the
anti-war movement.

Sweetheart, what connotation does that imply?

—– Original Message —–
From: S√łren L√łvfelt
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 1:57 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views
the anti-war movement.

Sounds like a very good move.Ibo will be much
better  for everybody.Okay some could get their
Methadone,but most people would benefit from Ibo I`m
sure.

Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views
the anti-war movement.

Have you ever read your history? The lack of
might have had an ill effect upon you!
No sweetheart, I don’t do drugs, but I am
most certainly attempting to get the local
government to drop their methadone program and use
ibogaine.
—– Original Message —–
From: Sandra K
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

Question, have you tried Ibogaine yet? For
some reason, I think it may have a very profound
effect on you…

—– Original Message —–
From: “A. Artze Associates”
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:56:46 -0400
To:
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

Let’s see, in WWII, the French lasted
about twenty minutes with the Germans, we came in
and assisted them while half became the Vichy
government full of yellow stripped backed bastards!
We lost over 150,000 of our men on French soil. The
school where the signing of the surrender of the
Germans today does not even have a sign posting the
historical value of that building.
Between the Vichy French and the Neo Nazi
Germans, who both sell to Saddam equipment to make
WMD, had you gone simply along with the USA, Saddam
would have capitulated! Now he is clamoring a win
just as he did when the UN forces stopped short of
30 miles outside of Baghdad during the Gulf War.
This is not a preemptive strike we are
about to give Iraq on or about March 1st, it will be
a week of darkness and we own the night! It will be
the continuation of the Gulf War, that the bastard
Saddam had claimed success to! Then went over ten
years of Saddam stroking the UN and went about his
business building up WMD with the help of the French
and the Germans!
Should Iraq use the WMD to defend himself,
then it will be a terrible way to find out that we
were right, terrible because there will be lots of
collateral damage as we will level Baghdad,
something that could have been avoided if the yellow
bellied French would have had the balls to side with
the USA!
You don’t seem to know your history! At
the end of WWI, Germany conceded to disarm and never
to arm themselves again. Hitler (a Saddam look
alike!) just went about his business arming to the
teeth, and the League of Nations did nothing, just
as the UN and NATO are doing today – wake up!
We made a big mistake in being loyal to
the French in Viet Nam, Ho Chen Min, loved America
and for what it stood for. He tried to get close to
us, but out of loyalty to the Damn French we did
not. He was not a Communist, but a Nationalist, he
was drawn to Russia because he needed assistance in
his fight to unite his country, we blew it there!
Sorry JT, but this is one war we need!
After 9/11, if the Muslims want peace (Islam in
Arabic) then they better earn it. The other Middle
East Arab countries do not want us in Iraq, we have
a nasty habit of installing Democracies, a form of
government that threatens all of the Dictatorships
there!
—– Original Message —–
From: Joshua Tinnin
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

Saddam is a menace equal to the
combination of Hitler and Stalin and needs to be
taken out.

Hogwash. Pure bullshit.

Sorry, didn’t mean to drag out a
political thread, but seriously, that’s unmitigated
government-sponsored propaganda you’re spewing, and
it’s even more hyperbolic than they are about it.
Britain, and later the US, carved up what was left
of the Ottoman Empire into the puppet nation-states
that exist today in the Middle East. Now, the US is
considering doing it again, no matter that the
hegemony never ended, and that our efforts to
support “freedom” included bringing Saddam to power,
helping to form Al Q’aeda and supporting the
fundamentalist Muslims against the Soviets, which
later became the Taliban. Oh, and the fact that we
also supported the Shah of Iran for a while, until
it was no longer convenient. Meanwhile, our
government says that the democratically-elected
Chavez in Venezuela is illegitimate, and has been
involved in attempted coups to overthrow him, as
well as instigating and engineering anti-Chavez
protests. He’s not illegitim! ate in the least, but
he does not kowtow to the US at all, which is
frustrating oil barons who want a piece of it. But
Uribe in Colombia is a different story, and we’ve
been more than happy to support his chainsaw
paramilitary to straighten things out, you know, in
the name of freedom. Well, actually, it’s because
there is a pipeline there which is crucial to the US
and to Colombia’s military, which has been attacked
by rebels repeatedly to hit the government and
foreign investors the hardest where it hurts most,
in the pocket. The government takes care of things
down there by hiring brutal mercenaries to terrorize
the rebels and any civilians who are around them or
who happen to be in the way, all with tacit US
acceptance, of course. And this is all just the tip
of the iceberg.

You might want to read some of what Mark
Twain wrote about the US’ intervention in the
Phillipines, which was much more similar to the
current situation than it is to WWII and Hitler, or
Stalin. We were nation-building there, too. But,
just to be clear, it’s never a good idea to trust
your leaders when they are waging pre-emptive war in
the name of “freedom,” because that’s never the real
reason. It’s imperialistic. If you don’t believe me,
I can point you to Perle and Wolfowitz’s vision to
re-shape the ME, which is driving current policy. We
might as well be Britain talking about Africa, but
nobody seems to be thinking about the last Empire,
amd how it badly bungled things (which helped hasten
its demise). And most of this change of perspective
from a Republic to an Empire stems from Woodrow
Wilson’s foreign policy, one of an imperialistic
power, acting with the supposed benefit of the
world, but really acting purely out! of
self-interest (which is to be expected).

And, every Empire falls eventually, even
the US. Dubya’s just getting us to the end that much
faster.

– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 2:07
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

On or about March 1st, we will attack
Iraq. It should not be referred to as “preemptive”
strike but rather the continuation of the Gulf War,
as they did not adhere to their promises when we
kicked their butts. This is deja vue, the useless
League of Nations after WWI when Germany agreed
never to rearm. The League did nothing and WWII came
about. Saddam is a menace equal to the combination
of Hitler and Stalin and needs to be taken out. If
the UN has not got the balls, then they are in the
same league as the useless League of Nations. The
Vichy French, and the Neo Nazi Germans be damned!
They have short memories!
Should Iraq use WMD against the US, it
would be a terrible way to show the World we were
right, terrible because we will wipe out Baghdad
from the face of this Earth!
If the Muslims want a Jihad, by God
that is what they will get. So that one day my great
grand son will ask his father, daddy, what’s a
Muslim?
Now kindly take my name off this
useless chat line or whatever it is called!

——————————————————————

—– Original Message —–
From: preston peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 4:36
PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the
right views the anti-war movement.

http://www.drugwar.com/nyciraqprotest.shtm

“The real patriots are standing up
in the shadow of the United Nations today
and saying Give Peace a Chance” Rev.
Al Sharpton, speaking at the NYC Peace
Demonstration, February 15, 2003
“Martin Luther King once said that
if mankind doesn’t put an end to war, war
will put an end to Mankind.” Harry
Bellefonte, speaking at the NYC Peace
Demonstration, February 15, 2003
New York Joins the World on the Road
Towards Peace-
Defying Court Order, Hundreds of
Thousands March in NYC, Joining With
Millions World-Wide Who Today Said
“No War!”
by Preston Peet
for DrugWar.com
February 15, 2003
(image)
Adam and Jeremy want Bush to pursue
Peace
If the city officials of New York
really were trying to stop people from
marching against war on Iraq by
refusing to issue a permit, and thought
having U.S. District Judge Barbara
S. ! Jones rule against allowing a march
permit to be issued would stop
marchers, they failed miserably. With figures
ranging from a 100,000 guesstimate
from an NYPD spokesperson, to attendee
estimates of around 750,000, people
young and old, of myriad nationalities,
races and creeds, filled the streets
of mid-town Manhattan today with a
veritable carnival of civil
disobedience for peace. Ignoring the
court-ordered ban on marching,
protestors exercised their Constitutional
right to public protest, marching,
telling Bush and the world in firm, loud
voices that not all US citizens are
blindly buying into any proposed
pre-emptive strike and a subsequent
war against Iraq, and will not be cowed
into silence.
snip-
Read Article and See Photos at above
URL

—– Original Message —–
From: Vector Vector
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003
10:50 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] ! how the right
views the anti-war movement.

this is so sick. but read it. the
other side speaks.

.:vector:.

Volume 1              Thursday,
February 13, 2003              By
David
Horowitz

This is the first issue of The War
Room in its
new
non-partisan format, now published
under the auspices of
www.frontpagemag.com. The War Room
is a tactical guide for
conservatives
and centrists in framing issues
that divide our nation and affect its
future. We are now engaged in a
war that may last a generation,
against
international foes whose main
weapon is terror and whose principal
targets are civilians. In these
circumstances it is vital that a
bi-partisan cons! ensus be formed
on defense of the homeland. One
requirement of this defense is
greater unity on the home front. It is
important that domestic issues,
which have the potential to divide
Americans, be resolved in a manner
that strengthens rather than
weakens
the nation. The divisive issues in
American politics are those that
tend
to divide us along the fault lines
of class, gender and race. The War
Room believes that these fault
lines do not run along a
Democrat-Republican bias but are
the product of a political left that
is
hostile to the national
foundations. The War Room believes that the
values of American individualism
and democracy, rooted in the
Founding,
form the basis for our national
unity and are the essential elements
of
our national strength. *

The “Anti-War” Movement
Is A Bigger Problem Than You Think
For over a year our country has
been at war with a terrorist foe that
can infiltrate our borders with
weapons of mass destruction. We are
divided in our homeland on two
fronts. Reasonable people may disagree
over tactics and priorities in
fighting this war — for example over
which hostile agency or state to
take on, and at which point in time.
There have been critics of the
Administration’s war policy from both
the
Democrat and Republican side of
the aisle. But these critics share a
common concern for the defense of
this country, and in the end they
support our government and our
nation against its foes.

Not so the other opposition to the
war, which is a radical movement
with
Marxist roots, whose origins go
back to the Vietnam War and whose
political base is American
universities. This opposition to the war
on
terror manifested itself withi! n
weeks of 9/11 with aim of opposing an
American military response to the
al-Qaeda attacks. Its agendas are
not
“pacifist” and are not inspired by
dissatisfaction with any
particular
American war or policy, but with
the American system itself. It is a
movement which cannot be appeased
and which is willing to collaborate
with America’s enemies.

Every major “anti-war”
demonstration to date, including the
demonstrations on the Capitol Mall
in October and January has been
organized and controlled by a
self-styled Communist group called the
Workers World Party, and its front
“International A.N.S.W.E.R.” The
figurehead of this organization is
former Attorney General Ramsey
Clark
and its organizer is Brian Becker,
a member of the secretariat of the
World World Party. The WWP is
aligned with the North Korean Communist
regime and along with its figur!
ehead has supported the North
Vietnamese
torturers of American POWS, the
Ayatollah Khomeni regime in Iran,
Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam
Hussein.

At the Mall, the speakers – all
selected by the Workers World Party –
denounced America as an
imperialist aggressor and “the axis of evil,”
and called for “regime change” and
“revolution” in the United States.
An
imam from a Washington DC mosque
led the crowd in chants of “Allahu
Akbar,” which is the cry of the
suicide bombers as they blow up
innocent
civilian targets. Mohammed Atta,
the leader of the 9/11 suicide
bombers,
gave these instructions to his
team: “When the confrontation begins,
strike like champions who do not
want to go back to this world.
Shout,
‘Allahu Akbar,’ because this
strikes fear in the hearts of the
non-believers.”

John Conyers, the ranking Democrat
on! the House Judiciary Committee
was
a featured speaker at the Workers
World Party “peace” rally, as was
former Democratic Congresswoman
Cynthia McKinney. Representative
Charles
Rangel, the ranking Democrat on
the House Ways and Means Committee
sent
a letter of support. In a sister
demonstration in San Francisco, also
organized by the Workers World
Party, California State Senator,
Democrat
John Burton, told the protesters
that the President of the United
States
was “full of s___” and was
“f—ing America.”

So appalling were these
demonstrations that older members of the left
disassociated themselves from this
movement in articles that appeared
in
leftwing magazines like Salon.com
and the L.A. Weekly (the latter
article was written by David Corn,
Washington editor of The Nation).

On February 15, an anti-war
protest will ! be held in New York City,
organized by a new group called
“United for Peace and Justice.” This
group is headed by Leslie Cagan, a
Sixties Marxist with a long
history
of supporting Communist causes.
She was a member of the Venceremos
Brigades organized by Cuban
Intelligence. She was a member of the
Committees for Correspondence, a
faction of the Communist Party USA,
and
she is co-chair of the National
Network on Cuba an organization whose
purpose is propaganda and
political support for the Castro
dictatorship.
Cagan has warned that, “If marches
do not work, we will escalate. We
will have to do things to disrupt
the normal flow of life in this
country.”(NYTimes, 2/04/03) This
threat of sabotage should not be
taken
lightly given the history of more
than 1,000 domestic bombings during
the Vietnam War.

The agendas of the so-called
“peace ! movement” are pro-Communist and
anti-American. Its organizers have
worked with America’s enemies in
the
past and are continuing to do so
in the midst of this war. This is
the
very definition of a political
“fifth column.” Honest dissenters and
Americans concerned about the
future of their country should take a
hard
look at these protests and those
who support them.

_____

THE WAR ROOM is a guide to
strategy and tactics for conservatives and
centrists in framing issues that
divide our nation and affect its
future. Email subscriptions are
$30 for one year or 48 issues. Click

<http://www.campaignsolutions.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/profile.d
2w/input?can_ref=738> here to
subsribe now! David Horowitz is the
author
of several bo! oks, including
Radical Son, The Politics of Bad Faith
and
Uncivil Wars.

__________________________________________________
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From: jon freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] norharman produced by heating L-Tryptophan
Date: February 18, 2003 at 10:55:09 AM EST
To: “paul jackamo” <pauljackamo@hotmail.com>, ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ted on any feedback.

Any more data on 18-MC in the public domain ? – I doubt that too, but things
move on……

Howard Lotsof has some articles up on his site about 18 MC …
http://www.ibogaine.org/18-mc/index.html

————————————————————————-
— League of Surrealistic Discord Records — http://www.lsdrecords.com —
=========================================================================

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] IT IS http://www.ethnogarden.com EOM
Date: February 18, 2003 at 10:54:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “A. Artze Associates” <aaasj@coqui.net> wrote:
http://ethnogarden.dk  does not work, anyone else
have a place to go?
—– Original Message —–
From: S√łren L√łvfelt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views the
anti-war movement.

As to the best of my knowledge,Indra is not open
anymore.
However you can obtain exstract,and HCL at
http://ethnogarden.dk

I hope you can use this.:o)

S√łren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Moore
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views the
anti-war movement.

Sweetheart, what connotation does that imply?

—– Original Message —–
From: S√łren L√łvfelt
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 1:57 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views
the anti-war movement.

Sounds like a very good move.Ibo will be much
better  for everybody.Okay some could get their
Methadone,but most people would benefit from Ibo I`m
sure.

Soren
—– Original Message —–
From: A. Artze Associates
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right views
the anti-war movement.

Have you ever read your history? The lack of
might have had an ill effect upon you!
No sweetheart, I don’t do drugs, but I am
most certainly attempting to get the local
government to drop their methadone program and use
ibogaine.
—– Original Message —–
From: Sandra K
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how the right
views the anti-war movement.

Question, have you tried Ibogaine yet? For
some reason, I think it may have a very profound