From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Seany baby
Date: January 31, 2005 at 11:31:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sean, waddup dog? I’ve missed you too, are you going to the Ibogaine
conference? I hope to see ya there. Randy
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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: January 31, 2005 at 11:31:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all ,i just wanted to add that ive had 3 iboga sessions & am taking off my lifetime glasses alot !! For months & months now,still use tthem for far vision but not much for close ,like right now!!YES!-shell
Jasen Chamoun <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Hey Martee,
I find my vision and all my other senses still tuning in.
For about 2 to 3 weeks after my treatment I also
experienced my eyes bluring.
love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: “m.finman”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
> Howard,
> I believe I did the ibogaine HCL. I was treated in that wave last
> summer. Bone density test had definitley crossed my mind. Maybe an eye
> exam as well. I am still reading ok with the same reading perscription I
> got a couple of years ago, however without them I am seeing less small
> print than I used to. This large print appears blurry to me without the
> reading glasses. On the other hand my far sight is still really sharp. I
> actually have a few theories of my own and will be delighted if any of
> them pan out. Thank you so much for your response. Any and all info is
> appreciated.
> Martee
> —– Original Message —–
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
>
>
>> Hi Martee,
>>
>> What form of iboga/ibogaine did you and your brother use? Possibly your
>> vision, like other aspects of your physiology had just deteriorated.
>> Possibly,
>> opiates constricting your pupils allowed greater depth of field and once
>> that
>> effect of the opioids was gone well, glasses were next. I know of one
>> person
>> who wore glasses since a youth and was able to give them up for twenty
>> years
>> post ibogaine. But, then that doesn’t make sense with your brother since
>> his
>> vision returned to “normal” some weeks later. I hadn’t heard of such an
>> effect
>> previously from ibogaine as deteriorated vision.
>>
>> As for bones you might want to have a bone densitometry test to see what
>> state they are in.
>>
>> Howard
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/31/05 12:14:55 PM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:
>>
>> << Julie and all,
>>
>> The vision thing is a big issue with me. Unlike yourself I didn’t
>>
>> require reading glasses until 10 years ago,( by then many years into
>> using)
>>
>> however after the ibo I noticed my reading vision has deteriorated. The
>>
>> other day I had to ask my young nephew to read my fortune from the
>> fortune
>>
>> cookie. To me it looked like a solid line. He swore to me it said “today
>> is
>>
>> a good day to buy a present for someone you love !’ Anyway, this vision
>>
>> thing is one of the main reasons I am hesitant to try another session.
>> Parts
>>
>> of me desperately would like to do it again and then the other part wants
>> to
>>
>> watch and see the natural progression of coming off and out from under
>> the
>>
>> effects of having taking ibogaine/being on methedone and heroin for over
>> 20
>>
>> years. My brother-in-law had fuzzy vision for a good 2-3 weeks after his
>>
>> session.
>>
>> The sleeping thing: I’m coming up on six months out and for me
>>
>> about 6 weeks ago when I got my treadmill and starting using it really
>>
>> regularly is when I started to sleep through the night. About 10 days
>> ago I
>>
>> wacked out my left knee on the treadmill from either too much incline
>> work
>>
>> or enthusiasm. The mind was willing. I have to learn that moderation
>> thing
>>
>> people keep telling me about. Since I have been laying off the treadmill
>> I
>>
>> have been waking up after 5- hours sleep, awake for 1-2 hours and then
>>
>> resuming for another 2 hours.
>>
>> Another thing for me to consider, since my right elbow seems to be
>>
>> creaking a bit as well is this me just now noticing damage and aches and
>>
>> pains from all those years of methedone (which as Preston pointed out was
>> an
>>
>> amazing pain killer). You know how all the oldtimers on the programs are
>>
>> walking with canes. While I did a lot of damage control at times, with my
>>
>> diet, I feel a lot of those brittle bones form methedone can be partly
>> from
>>
>> malnutrition.
>>
>> The thing you also mentioned about dreams and memories, I’m
>> also
>>
>> feeling like I am clearing a lot of old memories and past life stuff
>> that’s
>>
>> been a thorn in my side thanks to the iboga.
>>
>> I’d like to wait a while to see if there really is a such thing as
>>
>> “normal”.
>>
>> So I’m just real curious what’s coming next as far as the
>> progression
>>
>> goes without complicating it with coming off of another session.
>>
>> Although…. >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> [%]
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
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> [%]
>
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Preston
Date: January 31, 2005 at 11:10:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yea , I wouldn’t miss this for nuthin’. I think it ought to be real
interesting to say the least. Maybe we can expand our mind or something. Who is doing
the sound? I’m really looking forward to the conference. Randy
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: January 31, 2005 at 10:40:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Martee,
I find my vision and all my other senses still tuning in.
For about 2 to 3 weeks after my treatment I also
experienced my eyes bluring.
love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —– From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Howard,
I believe I did the ibogaine HCL. I was treated in that wave last summer. Bone density test had definitley crossed my mind. Maybe an eye exam as well. I am still reading ok with the same reading perscription I got a couple of years ago, however without them I am seeing less small print than I used to. This large print appears blurry to me without the reading glasses. On the other hand my far sight is still really sharp. I actually have a few theories of my own and will be delighted if any of them pan out. Thank you so much for your response. Any and all info is appreciated.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Hi Martee,
What form of iboga/ibogaine did you and your brother use? Possibly your
vision, like other aspects of your physiology had just deteriorated. Possibly,
opiates constricting your pupils allowed greater depth of field and once that
effect of the opioids was gone well, glasses were next. I know of one person
who wore glasses since a youth and was able to give them up for twenty years
post ibogaine. But, then that doesn’t make sense with your brother since his
vision returned to “normal” some weeks later. I hadn’t heard of such an effect
previously from ibogaine as deteriorated vision.
As for bones you might want to have a bone densitometry test to see what
state they are in.
Howard
In a message dated 1/31/05 12:14:55 PM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:
<< Julie and all,
The vision thing is a big issue with me. Unlike yourself I didn’t
require reading glasses until 10 years ago,( by then many years into using)
however after the ibo I noticed my reading vision has deteriorated. The
other day I had to ask my young nephew to read my fortune from the fortune
cookie. To me it looked like a solid line. He swore to me it said “today is
a good day to buy a present for someone you love !’ Anyway, this vision
thing is one of the main reasons I am hesitant to try another session. Parts
of me desperately would like to do it again and then the other part wants to
watch and see the natural progression of coming off and out from under the
effects of having taking ibogaine/being on methedone and heroin for over 20
years. My brother-in-law had fuzzy vision for a good 2-3 weeks after his
session.
The sleeping thing: I’m coming up on six months out and for me
about 6 weeks ago when I got my treadmill and starting using it really
regularly is when I started to sleep through the night. About 10 days ago I
wacked out my left knee on the treadmill from either too much incline work
or enthusiasm. The mind was willing. I have to learn that moderation thing
people keep telling me about. Since I have been laying off the treadmill I
have been waking up after 5- hours sleep, awake for 1-2 hours and then
resuming for another 2 hours.
Another thing for me to consider, since my right elbow seems to be
creaking a bit as well is this me just now noticing damage and aches and
pains from all those years of methedone (which as Preston pointed out was an
amazing pain killer). You know how all the oldtimers on the programs are
walking with canes. While I did a lot of damage control at times, with my
diet, I feel a lot of those brittle bones form methedone can be partly from
malnutrition.
The thing you also mentioned about dreams and memories, I’m also
feeling like I am clearing a lot of old memories and past life stuff that’s
been a thorn in my side thanks to the iboga.
I’d like to wait a while to see if there really is a such thing as
“normal”.
So I’m just real curious what’s coming next as far as the progression
goes without complicating it with coming off of another session.
Although…. >>
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: January 31, 2005 at 10:02:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Howard,
I believe I did the ibogaine HCL. I was treated in that wave last summer. Bone density test had definitley crossed my mind. Maybe an eye exam as well. I am still reading ok with the same reading perscription I got a couple of years ago, however without them I am seeing less small print than I used to. This large print appears blurry to me without the reading glasses. On the other hand my far sight is still really sharp. I actually have a few theories of my own and will be delighted if any of them pan out. Thank you so much for your response. Any and all info is appreciated.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Hi Martee,
What form of iboga/ibogaine did you and your brother use? Possibly your
vision, like other aspects of your physiology had just deteriorated. Possibly,
opiates constricting your pupils allowed greater depth of field and once that
effect of the opioids was gone well, glasses were next. I know of one person
who wore glasses since a youth and was able to give them up for twenty years
post ibogaine. But, then that doesn’t make sense with your brother since his
vision returned to “normal” some weeks later. I hadn’t heard of such an effect
previously from ibogaine as deteriorated vision.
As for bones you might want to have a bone densitometry test to see what
state they are in.
Howard
In a message dated 1/31/05 12:14:55 PM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:
<< Julie and all,
The vision thing is a big issue with me. Unlike yourself I didn’t
require reading glasses until 10 years ago,( by then many years into using)
however after the ibo I noticed my reading vision has deteriorated. The
other day I had to ask my young nephew to read my fortune from the fortune
cookie. To me it looked like a solid line. He swore to me it said “today is
a good day to buy a present for someone you love !’ Anyway, this vision
thing is one of the main reasons I am hesitant to try another session. Parts
of me desperately would like to do it again and then the other part wants to
watch and see the natural progression of coming off and out from under the
effects of having taking ibogaine/being on methedone and heroin for over 20
years. My brother-in-law had fuzzy vision for a good 2-3 weeks after his
session.
The sleeping thing: I’m coming up on six months out and for me
about 6 weeks ago when I got my treadmill and starting using it really
regularly is when I started to sleep through the night. About 10 days ago I
wacked out my left knee on the treadmill from either too much incline work
or enthusiasm. The mind was willing. I have to learn that moderation thing
people keep telling me about. Since I have been laying off the treadmill I
have been waking up after 5- hours sleep, awake for 1-2 hours and then
resuming for another 2 hours.
Another thing for me to consider, since my right elbow seems to be
creaking a bit as well is this me just now noticing damage and aches and
pains from all those years of methedone (which as Preston pointed out was an
amazing pain killer). You know how all the oldtimers on the programs are
walking with canes. While I did a lot of damage control at times, with my
diet, I feel a lot of those brittle bones form methedone can be partly from
malnutrition.
The thing you also mentioned about dreams and memories, I’m also
feeling like I am clearing a lot of old memories and past life stuff that’s
been a thorn in my side thanks to the iboga.
I’d like to wait a while to see if there really is a such thing as
“normal”.
So I’m just real curious what’s coming next as far as the progression
goes without complicating it with coming off of another session.
Although…. >>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: UUSEAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Seany baby
Date: January 31, 2005 at 9:44:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jasen,
Right back at ya baby!
Sean
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Seany baby
Date: January 31, 2005 at 9:36:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Sean
Hey, it’s good to hear from you,I have missed you.
with love Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: UUSEAN@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick (long)
In a message dated 1/27/05 8:57:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jfreed1@umbc.edu writes:
saying that government should coerce people into “positive” change in
their lives IS periously close to what the nazis did to the jews, gypsies,
homosexuals, disabled, and other undesirables of their time
Hey list,
Queer junkie with AIDS here. This thread I must say first has been a blast. Haven’t seen this much fire on this list in a good while. Wild enough that it brought me out of lurking!
I feel I must throw my two cents in here for harm reduction. Personally, ibogaine was one of the finest moves I have ever made from a harm reduction prospective. When I joined this list, I had a raving crack addiction and a growing dope addiction. Four months later I actually got ibogaine treatment. Kind of amazing really.
At the time, I had just started work with a harm reduction therapist. For the first time I felt that my choice to use or not use was largely in my power. I gave up on the drug is a drug is a drug attitude of NA, and smoked a hell of a lot of weed after ibogaine treatment. My crack use became minimal, and remains so. I am no longer powerless over crack cocaine. Alleluia!
Underlying psychic pain remained with me however, and my heroin use grew. I found dope much more manageable than crack. I have gone back to work full time. I am paying off debts.
Meanwhile, I have struggled with success to keep my dope use to a happy medium. I am not physically addicted, and am working in therapy to free myself from the dirty diesel as well.
But on my terms. On my timetable. I have largely cut loose from life 12 steppers of any stripe, prohibitionists, and any other well meaning type who gets high off of “helping” me. I am educating myself in harm reduction. I am empowered. I use dope. I am moving toward quitting dope. All on my terms.
When I discovered ibogaine, I had no idea this is where my life would go. Perhaps my empowerment began with the ability to choose ibogaine in the first place. Not the cops, a lover, family….my choice. I did agree to aftercare, which was not really so hard since I was already working a fine harm reduction therapist in NYC.
Finally, I am no rush to use ibogaine again. I am not physically addicted at this time, and see no point it really. I am open-minded to another treatment down the line, however. I am not turned off by the insistence of providers of ibogaine that aftercare be sought. As long as I have full say in the type of aftercare. If one does have a problem with the aftercare “rule” , well, we are dealing with a schedule one in the US, so providers in the US are sadly put in the role of dealers. You want their serve, you at least pay lip service to their rules. I would rather avoid ibogaine at this point. Instead, I am putting my energy toward working under the bigger umbrella of harm reduction, and work toward the legalization of ibogaine.
Anyway, nice to be back on the list. And thanks for this thread.
Peace,
Sean
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna
Date: January 31, 2005 at 9:32:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Donna,
Your friend has to go,..she is no friend if she is stopping you from doing what you choose.
Hey,..I’ll be your mate. ( mate in Australia means friend)
I did the treatment from 60mg of methadone,…even though life really does rock,and
all is good,..in hindsight, I would have come off a shorter working opiate.
Are you on the Methadone? If you are I would go onto something else,..Personally
speaking, before the Ibo’. You will recover a lot quicker.
If you are using heroin and not on the methadone then I would skip straight to the Ibo’.
Donna I will help on or off list whenever you need to ask something and if I can answer
your question I will.
Stairway to heaven just came on and I got goose bumps.
I felt your desperation in your last email and I know,..it is f*cked,..your almost there
,..keep pushing on. “I will persist until I succeed”(Dale Carnegie)
Before my treatment, I was at my wit’s end, I was beginning to lose all interest in
everything, I felt hopeless,..an emotional mess, I just wanted to go back home,..
be rid of all the anguish,..the pain,..judgement,…it was to much for a person
to bear,..even to much for a bear to bear,..utter hoplessnes.
Then I found this great list,..Sara and Ibo’. WOW!
Hey,..let me tell you life is now wondrous,..most of the pain is gone no more
heavy burdens stuck to me like super glue.When I say “wondrous” life still
has it’s ups and downs of course,..things happen that I do not like, and things
I do like. life still has it’s challenges that’s for sure.
Life is wondrous because I am freeeeeeee,..I am lighter,..more confidence, my
shackles are gone, this is why it is wondrous.
I just blew some wind into your sails,..the ship is on course,..your crew is hungry
you will eat soon and leave your unwanted goods at the dock before sailing away again
free, light, full and happy.
What country are you in again,..Australia?
with love,
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Hi Nick
Me again I just wanted to say sorry again, I could really do with some advice from you or any one else on the list, I have a choice self administer ibogaine which someone who is really experienced has told me its not out of the question and really comes down to the individual ,(would you agree with that?) or do the subutex and then the ibogaine which another person who is really experienced in ibo treatment has said this is probably the best solution to my problem. I really dont know what to do, Nick I feel awful and I can not appologise enough this so called mate of mine does not want me to get clean because she does not want to, and after this I am really wondering why I am mates at all.
love donna
From: UUSEAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 31, 2005 at 9:06:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick,
Perhaps you never read the intro to this fine list, but the only rule is don’t be an asshole. Actually excuses to use heroin are quite welcome here. So is the delete button if you don’t like that. If one can type with a rig in their arm and a crackpipe in their mouth, they are welcome here. Long as they don’t act like an asshole.
EXCUSES TO USE HEROIN:
1 It feels good.
2 I like dope.
Sorry, couldn’t help myself.:)
Cheers!
Sean
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 31, 2005 at 8:51:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
*Hey Randy,
*Life sure does rock.
*I just turned it up.
* love ya work mate.
* Jasen
Ibogaine is
not anything to be taken lightly. Life ROCKS turn it up. Randy
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From: UUSEAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick (long)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 8:48:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/27/05 8:57:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jfreed1@umbc.edu writes:
saying that government should coerce people into “positive” change in
their lives IS periously close to what the nazis did to the jews, gypsies,
homosexuals, disabled, and other undesirables of their time
Hey list,
Queer junkie with AIDS here. This thread I must say first has been a blast. Haven’t seen this much fire on this list in a good while. Wild enough that it brought me out of lurking!
I feel I must throw my two cents in here for harm reduction. Personally, ibogaine was one of the finest moves I have ever made from a harm reduction prospective. When I joined this list, I had a raving crack addiction and a growing dope addiction. Four months later I actually got ibogaine treatment. Kind of amazing really.
At the time, I had just started work with a harm reduction therapist. For the first time I felt that my choice to use or not use was largely in my power. I gave up on the drug is a drug is a drug attitude of NA, and smoked a hell of a lot of weed after ibogaine treatment. My crack use became minimal, and remains so. I am no longer powerless over crack cocaine. Alleluia!
Underlying psychic pain remained with me however, and my heroin use grew. I found dope much more manageable than crack. I have gone back to work full time. I am paying off debts.
Meanwhile, I have struggled with success to keep my dope use to a happy medium. I am not physically addicted, and am working in therapy to free myself from the dirty diesel as well.
But on my terms. On my timetable. I have largely cut loose from life 12 steppers of any stripe, prohibitionists, and any other well meaning type who gets high off of “helping” me. I am educating myself in harm reduction. I am empowered. I use dope. I am moving toward quitting dope. All on my terms.
When I discovered ibogaine, I had no idea this is where my life would go. Perhaps my empowerment began with the ability to choose ibogaine in the first place. Not the cops, a lover, family….my choice. I did agree to aftercare, which was not really so hard since I was already working a fine harm reduction therapist in NYC.
Finally, I am no rush to use ibogaine again. I am not physically addicted at this time, and see no point it really. I am open-minded to another treatment down the line, however. I am not turned off by the insistence of providers of ibogaine that aftercare be sought. As long as I have full say in the type of aftercare. If one does have a problem with the aftercare “rule” , well, we are dealing with a schedule one in the US, so providers in the US are sadly put in the role of dealers. You want their serve, you at least pay lip service to their rules. I would rather avoid ibogaine at this point. Instead, I am putting my energy toward working under the bigger umbrella of harm reduction, and work toward the legalization of ibogaine.
Anyway, nice to be back on the list. And thanks for this thread.
Peace,
Sean
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Randy
Date: January 31, 2005 at 7:19:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi randy 🙂
Don’t worry, you didn’t offend me. It just an exchange of point
of view.
I was wrong to write something about your friend in New York.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Randy
What I don’t like about your list of tools is the sacastic shots you made
at
my friends in New York City. If I have offended you, I appoligize. I guess
you
have no sence of humor, one of those you can dish it out but not take it
guys. You started the sarcastic remarks, not me. Randy
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 6:43:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It is Dis ease,..illness and a tool,..
IMHO.
love
Jasen. 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In my opinion it’s neither! Just a temporary learning tool.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Jasen Chamoun [mailto:jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: 31 January 2005 04:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In my opinion,..it is both.
love
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In a message dated 30/01/2005 19:51:42 GMT Standard Time, rwd3@cox.net writes:
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat?
Interested in what you guys think????????????????
From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Fw: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 6:23:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– >
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
this is off topic but may be relevant to some of the recent exchanges: it has nothing to do w/ ibo
the tools to segregate junkies from the rest of society are being perfected in the criminal justice system. many states have enacted quasi criminal sanctions to sexual predators so that when they finish serving their sentence, they are evaluated by a group of shrinks who have trouble getting a practice started elsewhere who in turn determine whether the offender is likely to offend again or fit to return to society. if not fit, the offender gets an extended stay in a “special” hospital for an indefinite period of time. once or if released, the offender then must account for every move he or she makes, many having to wear gps monitors. bootstrap that with the anti terrorist laws and tools for law enforcement and there is an excellent blueprint for expanding the classes to fit into this model. i don’t condone sexual predators or pedophiles but i have seen many a young adult get caught in this web for sexual conduct that was not even frowned upon a few decades ago.( e.g. 20 yr. old male having sex w/ 17 yr. old unmarried female w/o parental consent.). these offenders are marked, registered, and tracked relentlessly for the rest of their lives. many feel as though druggies are bad news, and some are, that undermine our culture and harm others. easy to keep an eye on them with this method, so everyone feels safe. we all know that users lack compassion for his neighbor and would do anything for his/her next fix. it would be nice to eliminate this threat from our communities. food for thought on an idle sunday. no personal opinion expressed.ron—– Original Message —– From: “tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 2:48 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Hi Team Mindvox:
I’ve enjoyed the concepts lately squeezed from Preston and Nick’s snarly
differences over libertarian defenses of junkie lifestyle choices. Both are
great writers and probably lovely people. Do the providers have input on Ibo
as treatment for addiction to help return users to “health”, versus Ibo as
cool tool to help user down regulate freely chosen opiates as pain meds? I
can see Preston’s point about “nobody gonna mess with my choice to use
because I’m free” (sorry for abbreviated words in mouth, here), and I can
see Nick’s provocative fascist wake-up call to pull the covers off all the
self medicated sleepy minions of Morphia. That side sounds pretty wicked and
unpleasant, images of cops and home invasions roll out over network TV all
the time. The free will junkie lifestyle isn’t exactly a picnic however.
The issue of addiction versus free will gets right to the central vein
(sorry, just had to..) of Ibogaine use. I like the practice of providing
this tool to people who want out of their addiction, and it seems unique and
powerful in it’s value for that. Do you providers take on clients who are
not really looking for a way out of addiction? Maybe the mom or girlfriend
are ragging on people but, naw, they really just like that dope..”
Speaking only for myself, I can’t see why it would be worth my time and
energy to help the junkie have a better commercial relationship to his
chosen pursuits. Yes, I bet Ibo would help a lot if used for that, but it
would feel like such a wasted tool for liberation…OK, help the opiate feel
better for a while, yawn, whatever…
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat? Or is free will use of great pain killers and ways to get high some
inherent right my neighborhood and I need to fight to protect? As long as
people aren’t in my face they should do what they want to pursue and even
catch every happiness they can. No doubt. The Ibo list of PC thought from
Francis was precious. Too true.
Out here west of NYC, where gun control is a 4 inch group at 50 yards with
your one-handed pistol shot, the idea of a junkie’s rights to use gets a
little abstract. My libertarian beliefs are ok, but when the drug cartel
reps show up at your daughter’s high school prom, some of us get nervous and
tend to reach for something meaner than a good fence purchase. Dirty Harry
sold a lot of movies with the retribution schtick.
As for all the civil liberty issues brought out in the War on Drugs info,
there sure is a lot of sudden surprise and focus on the”dirty laundry” side
of the drug user “lifestyle”. Dirt sells, for sure, but isn’t it all
getting hard to be shocked and amazed for you grownups that addiction sucks?
Over 500 years since the Spanish Christian monarchs sent Columbus off to
eliminate everyone non Spanish and Christian to generate revenue, and the
war has been pretty world wide and constant for your mind, spirit, and soul
ever since. Addiction has been a favorite controller tool for a long time.
I don’t know the experience of opiate addiction, thankfully, and no, I’ll
pass on those mashed potatoes too. For the proud, freethinker junkies and
tweekers among us, does the free will model work for addiction or is there a
treatable illness there that loved ones might want to intervene with? When
do your decisions start to forfeit your claim to civil rights? Let me know.
Never mind the character jabs at me for asking, just come from your own
knowledge. As for the social critique of unaware drug policies, this war on
the drug user is just the sneak preview for what’s coming at us in Century
21, IMHO. Get clean, wake up, or don’t. Your choice. In the bright future
there will be a lot of available parking places, methinks.
I’m gone, thanks for reading.
Dr. Tom
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Randy
Date: January 31, 2005 at 5:28:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hey, and come to think of it, I kinda sorta resembled one of them there sarcastic comments, no?
;-))
Yer gonna be in the Apple in February, at COSM, right Randy?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Randy
What I don’t like about your list of tools is the sacastic shots you made at
my friends in New York City. If I have offended you, I appoligize. I guess you
have no sence of humor, one of those you can dish it out but not take it
guys. You started the sarcastic remarks, not me. Randy
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Free will vs. Addiction:reply,re-query
Date: January 31, 2005 at 5:03:33 PM EST
To: tomo7@starband.net, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dr. Tom, I think Ibo should be legal but with restrictions. In my personal
opinion no one should ever take it without a trained provider with them. I’m
with Howard on his fantasy hospital. Ibogaine is powerful stuff, so is Heroin,
people do what they have to do. I’d like to see Ibogaine available to those who
want it. Think about it, Ibogaine treatments would be cheaper in the long run
than what they are doing in hospitals now. AND it will work better.
Randy
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Randy
Date: January 31, 2005 at 4:43:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What I don’t like about your list of tools is the sacastic shots you made at
my friends in New York City. If I have offended you, I appoligize. I guess you
have no sence of humor, one of those you can dish it out but not take it
guys. You started the sarcastic remarks, not me. Randy
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: January 31, 2005 at 1:30:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Martee,
What form of iboga/ibogaine did you and your brother use? Possibly your
vision, like other aspects of your physiology had just deteriorated. Possibly,
opiates constricting your pupils allowed greater depth of field and once that
effect of the opioids was gone well, glasses were next. I know of one person
who wore glasses since a youth and was able to give them up for twenty years
post ibogaine. But, then that doesn’t make sense with your brother since his
vision returned to “normal” some weeks later. I hadn’t heard of such an effect
previously from ibogaine as deteriorated vision.
As for bones you might want to have a bone densitometry test to see what
state they are in.
Howard
In a message dated 1/31/05 12:14:55 PM, mafinman@optonline.net writes:
<< Julie and all,
The vision thing is a big issue with me. Unlike yourself I didn’t
require reading glasses until 10 years ago,( by then many years into using)
however after the ibo I noticed my reading vision has deteriorated. The
other day I had to ask my young nephew to read my fortune from the fortune
cookie. To me it looked like a solid line. He swore to me it said “today is
a good day to buy a present for someone you love !’ Anyway, this vision
thing is one of the main reasons I am hesitant to try another session. Parts
of me desperately would like to do it again and then the other part wants to
watch and see the natural progression of coming off and out from under the
effects of having taking ibogaine/being on methedone and heroin for over 20
years. My brother-in-law had fuzzy vision for a good 2-3 weeks after his
session.
The sleeping thing: I’m coming up on six months out and for me
about 6 weeks ago when I got my treadmill and starting using it really
regularly is when I started to sleep through the night. About 10 days ago I
wacked out my left knee on the treadmill from either too much incline work
or enthusiasm. The mind was willing. I have to learn that moderation thing
people keep telling me about. Since I have been laying off the treadmill I
have been waking up after 5- hours sleep, awake for 1-2 hours and then
resuming for another 2 hours.
Another thing for me to consider, since my right elbow seems to be
creaking a bit as well is this me just now noticing damage and aches and
pains from all those years of methedone (which as Preston pointed out was an
amazing pain killer). You know how all the oldtimers on the programs are
walking with canes. While I did a lot of damage control at times, with my
diet, I feel a lot of those brittle bones form methedone can be partly from
malnutrition.
The thing you also mentioned about dreams and memories, I’m also
feeling like I am clearing a lot of old memories and past life stuff that’s
been a thorn in my side thanks to the iboga.
I’d like to wait a while to see if there really is a such thing as
“normal”.
So I’m just real curious what’s coming next as far as the progression
goes without complicating it with coming off of another session.
Although…. >>
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Randy
Date: January 31, 2005 at 1:09:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Randy,
You wrote:
Don’t ever say that I
don’t read the list and imply that you love it more than I do.
# Did I ? This a thought reading, but this thought is infortunately not
mine, could be your eventualy. Obviously you read the list….that do not
imply that you love this list more or less than I do.How much is more, how
much is less to be enought ?
Basicly before you wrote:
Man I have missed some good shit here lately. I wish I had seen Francis’s
list of “How to win friends and influence Junkies” and could have been
current
with my reply.
You wrote now,
Francis, I read your list and I was being sarcastic. Whoa ….. there goes
a
shooting star, that’s way over your head too, aint it?
# Randy, I am confused but I assume that you read my small list of tools .
what you exactly don’t like in my small list 🙂
God bless
Francis
Don’t ever say that I
don’t read the list and imply that you love it more than I do. This list
pulled
me through very tough times, addicted and newly Ibonized too. Matter of
fact
Ibogaine and this list has made my life so full that I don’t have the time
I
used to to read everything on it. Just the ones that catch my attention.
Yours
did. Sorry Randy
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From: “tomo7″ <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine]-Free will vs. Addiction:reply,re-query
Date: January 31, 2005 at 12:41:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Randy, and other responders:
Thanks for your thoughtful replies. Honestly, Randy, that gun control is
what I aspire to, but my groups are 6” or more, and a few strays with a
Glock .40, not that target Ruger. More practice helps everything.
I hear your concern about the need for pain relief. Pain is a complete drag
and I’m sure it pulls many into addiction. I think Opium is the best proof
that God has mercy for suffering humans. As relief in terminal intractable
pain, the morphine drip is merciful release for those clearly not coming
back to health and function before they depart. Pain has purpose and keeps
the healthy immune system targeted on what needs fixing. A good physician,
or a caring friend will always want to help one to stop hurting and repair
the cause of the pain. In practice, the blockade of pain with opiates seems
to block the healing process as well, but even there the Kevorkian call has
plenty of room for free will and medical judgment.
It is sad that Preston suffers, and also we all lose his writing talent if
pain debilitates him. I don’t think Opiates should be unavailable, or
Ibogaine either. And evidently many doctors are normal people too, with high
rates of addiction among themselves. Your view about better training is
right on point. We should have some advising board at the medical schools
that can require sensible knowledge about opiate use, before the wound up
new doc is let loose on the public. Most also agree that the current
murderous status quo suits the beneficiaries of that profit stream just
fine. Social change won’t be driven by it’s victims any time soon. Medical
education has been owned and directed by and for the same profiteers from
this war on drug users, for a long damn time.
The opiate doesn’t heal the pain or it wouldn’t re-appear when the opiate
wears off. Opiates are temporary relief from the feeling of pain. For the
mindvox record, I don’t judge anyone for doing anything in reach to lessen
their pain, and, I don’t begrudge anyone the right to take a drug because
they want to just get high and feel good. I hope to hear of their success.
My flirtation was with Lady Cannabis, over the years, back when I had sparky
adrenals, but I’m still partial to the concept.
So, while I sympathize with Preston’s Skag Swat Team solution, for certain
high profile war criminals and corrupt public servants, complete with a few
rapid detox sessions for the sheer poetry of it, I rather sympathize with
every society’s efforts to protect community health and safety. I heard Nick
being about there with his original ‘druthers’ too. If they just weren’t
arming the wolves to protect the sheep, drug laws could be useful.
People should do what they want with their own life and choices, and get
with cause and effect. Jason’s analogy of love and force as oil and water
was nice. Sara’s clarity on “tuff love” works for me too, having seen
forceful interventions
save lives and families. Your sentence, “To me, Ibogaine is about
the choices it gives you and the best route out of addiction that I
personally
know of”, just about nails it.
As I endorse treating addiction with I., it doesn’t follow that I oppose
pain medication with Opiates. Re-read that, please. Up until someone messes
with me or endangers my family, the benefit of the doubt goes to whoever
wants to pursue their truth, however, whenever.
Drugs are great, sometimes, if they aren’t dosed with ignorance, greed,
fear, and delusion. But here we are in America, where they usually are,
whether legal or not. It’s not like it’s a “free country” or anything,
unless you’ve been on a Rip Van Winkle nap. Powerful anything..drugs, health
foods, telecommunications, weapons, etc. are all about advantages in the war
on your individuality and light. I notice that all the “wars d’jour” aren’t
going so well for our side. Sorry if that’s a bit “negative”.
Along comes an unusual plant medicine that actually helps in a desperate
addiction situation (which is profitable and beneficial for the economic
rulers). Should that medicine merit study and effort at understanding it by
professionals? Or, would the greater good be drug store pez dispensers with
the self medication of Ibo in reach for anyone with a candy bar budget?
Though not a pain killer, it would probably work better at pain control than
many of our common “remedies”, in just not causing pain and disability,
like the wildly popular NSAIDS.
But, Ibo is just too much damn work to ever pretend at being a party drug.
Very little “abuse potential”, at least for more than once. I don’t know if
I’m enough of an optimistic anarchist to think the public would get that Pez
candy format right. But hey, it wouldn’t be a lot worse than the anti-life
OTC market we have the “freedom” to enjoy right now.
My question is do the providers aim their therapy at addiction when the
patient is ambivalent and holding nearby drugs to re-medicate after the
session? Reminding the inexperienced, the re-sensitising of O. receptors
that takes place during Ibo sessions can make a formerly OK dose become far
more dangerous. The few deaths reported have been from that scenario, and
undisclosed health problems. Do providers screen their clients medically, or
not? Do you think they should, morally? Or, should the pixilated pez sit
next to the nicotine, alcohol, junk food and Vicodin in your kid’s high
school vending machines?
Shouts to the list people with juice and passion to share here!
Dr. Tom
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:21 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Dr. Tom, I read your post the other day and didn’t have time to give it the
thought that it deserves, I have time now. First off, I’m not a provider but
I
know a few and I’d like to say something here. LOL I have to see that 4 inch
group offhand at 50 yards. I might be able to get 4 inch groups with a Ruger
Mk
II but with 2 hands and a rest. ‘Nuff’ jokin’, this is serious. This issue
needs to be addressed. When I had my treatment everyone, and I mean everyone
wanted to know about my aftercare and plans for the future to the point that
it
irratated me. Turns out that they were right about therapy by the way.
Nobody
that I know of will treat anyone just to make it easier to get high. This
has
probably been hashed out allready, I haven’t had time to read everthing on
the
list for days now, but I have to say this. Have you ever met Preston? I
have,
and maybe I’m just too sensitive, but I swear I could see the pain in his
face
when he had to move around. Does he or anyone else with as many pain issues
as he has not have the right to try and make his life easier to deal with?
That’s not a decision I would make carte blanch (where the hell is the spell
checker on this thing?) about anyone. Besides if I had my way Ibogaine would
be
legal and this would be a mute point. If I was a provider I would have to
take
all things into consideration on an individual basis. To me, Ibogaine is
about
the choices it gives you and the best route out of addiction that I
personaly
know of. I’ve been addicted off and on since the 70’s to oppiates. This is
the
first time I have felt good about being clean since I shot Morphine when I
was
15 years old. I didn’t really see how it could work for me but I tried
anyway. It worked. How do we know who it will work for and who it won’t?
There is a
screening process and I’d have to say that to the man everyone treated here
of
late in the NYC area truly wanted to get clean. I hope Preston doesn’t mind
me saying this but I would imagine if he could have been clean AND free of
pain
he probably would have loved it. That didn’t happen for him and I wish it
had. Ibogaine is medicine and should be treated that way. Oppiates are
medicine
too, just look at all those ‘scripts that get written for them. Dr.’s give
out
an addictive substance all day long and the government won’t let people who
want out of addiction have the single most effective way of dealing with
that
addiction legaly obtain Ibogaine. That almost seems evil to me. There should
be
Ibogaine information in every Dr.’s office and Methadone clinic in the US.
I’m
covering my end on that, how ’bout you? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it
again, I won’t shut up until every addict that I know of at least knows that
there is another way out. I pay close attention to everything you say and
I’m
glad that you brought this up. When I get back to the Catskills I’m gonna’
work
on my one handed shot.hehehehe Randy
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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: Is Free Heroin Just a Quick Fix?
Date: January 31, 2005 at 12:32:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have been really excited about hearing more about these trials in Canada. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out.
After I read the whole article at the bottom of the email I remembered reading about one woman who had tried rehabs many times, along with group meetings, Methadone M.T., and anything else that could possibly help stop her from using and nothing worked. I’m not sure where she lived but somehow she got involved in a heroin maintenance program and after she had been on it for awhile she talked about how for the first time in her life she had her own apartment, a job, and money in her pocket. She cried about how she wished this could have happened to her sooner (I think she was around 50) so that she could have had more of a life, instead of always being broke and dodging the cops.
In my opinion, heroin maintenance makes more sense. I know that methadone lasts longer, but from experience, I could see how people would still crave heroin while on it. To a lot of people, (most folks in the U.S.) giving heroin to an addict is just another way to keep them down and encourage them to keep using. They just don’t realize or care that some people are going to keep using no matter what, and that heroin maintenance would allow them to have lives that are as productive and fulfilling as possible.
I say this because I think almost everyone has a ‘job’ in life. I don’t mean a 9 – 5 job, but something that is their passion in life, whether it’s writing, or music, or science. Whatever it is, it can get lost when you are on the streets using all your time and energy to stay well. When these people get on the maintenance program, then maybe they will remember or discover what it is that makes their life worthwhile and start doing it again This happened to me with Ibogaine. I remembered all these things that used to inspire me. During my Ibogaine trip the first thing I saw was Einstein, and I couldn’t believe how I had forgotten how much I used to love to learn about physics and how curious I always was, and then all these other things came flooding back to me, like the piano, and going back to school. And now I am starting to do these things again, (I just got a kick ass keyboard with weighted keys and a full range of octaves!!! And I’m going back to school in the summer.Woohoo!!!) It makes such a difference to have all that time and energy back, and I know so fu*%ing many people that would benefit from heroin maintenance for exactly that reason, so I am really interested to see the results of the trial.
If it works out I hope they change their mind about stopping the treatment in a year. It would suck to see how great your life could be and then have it ripped away. It will also be interesting to see how the U.S. reacts to the results, especially if they are positive, because I can’t imagine Washington saying, “hey, that worked out great, lets give it a try.”
Laura
— On Mon 01/31, Preston Peet < ptpeet@nyc.rr.com > wrote:
From: Preston Peet [mailto: ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:45:52 -0500
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: Is Free Heroin Just a Quick Fix?
snip from the article below:
>”Sometimes you need something just to relax and get your mind together,
instead of always being in a state of panic. That’s what’s killing everyone
down here,” she said, pointing to the throngs of bedraggled souls shuffling
along East Hastings Street. Like Ms. Woelke, they must hit the pavement
every day to raise enough cash for their drugs. Most steal. Many women work
as prostitutes.
“They have to do things they wouldn’t normally do.”
This is exactly what some of Canada’s top addiction experts want to find
out when they begin the first heroin prescription trial in North America.
If heroin addicts are freed of their daily chase for drugs, if it is given
to them three times a day like medicine, can they change their lives for
the better?<
This woman has it nailed with her comment about the panic being what’s
killinng all her addict frieds and acquaintances on the streets.
There’s more below. Too awesome. This is what we should be doing, ALONG with
offering addicts ibogaine and methadone and whatever else it may take to get
them to a point where THEY, the ADDICTS- not Nick, or the Court, or Preston
Peet, or the police and judges, or Bill W., or the Bwiti, or whomever it is-
feel they are most happy. Not “they’re a drag,” not they just be integrated
into society along with everyone else, not they must be forced into
participating in life, none of that is a good criteria for action or even
worthy goals IN MY OPINION. The main goals in my mind are to enable each and
every person to live happily as possible to the extent they are not hurting
others while making themselves happy, to reduce as many possible harms to
the addict and the rest of society too without forcing anyone into anything
against their will.
I’m pretty sure that the authorities involved in this effort will notice
a drop in crime on the part of the participant, and even probably a climb in
things like employemnnt and other markers like this.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Lake”
To:
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:20 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Canada: Is Free Heroin Just a Quick Fix?
> Newshawk: CMAP http://www.mapinc.org/cmap
> Pubdate: Mon, 31 Jan 2005
> Source: Globe and Mail (Canada)
> Page: A1 – Front Page
> Copyright: 2005, The Globe and Mail Company
> Contact: letters@globeandmail.ca
> Website: http://www.globeandmail.ca/
> Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/168
> Author: Jane Armstrong
> Cited: Centre for Addiction and Mental Health http://www.camh.net/
> Cited: Canadian Institutes of Health Research http://www.cihr-irsc.gc.ca/
> Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/heroin.htm (Heroin)
> Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?136 (Methadone)
> Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/topics/Downtown+Eastside
>
> IS FREE HEROIN JUST A QUICK FIX?
>
> VANCOUVER — On a warm, rainy Saturday morning, Debbie Woelke stops
> pushing her shopping cart long enough to discuss the pros and cons of a
> plan to give free heroin to drug addicts in Canada’s poorest
> neighbourhood.
>
> The heroin trial is all the talk of Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside and Ms.
> Woelke, 48, thinks it’s a good idea. She might even apply, herself. “They
> should have done this a long time ago,” she said leaning on her cart,
> which contains all her worldly belongings — not groceries.
>
> Like other addicts, Ms. Woelke lives in a bleak rented room in a
> residential hotel. Far better to be outside in the rain, even if it means
> wheeling around your clothes all day.
>
> “Sometimes you need something just to relax and get your mind together,
> instead of always being in a state of panic. That’s what’s killing
> everyone down here,” she said, pointing to the throngs of bedraggled souls
> shuffling along East Hastings Street. Like Ms. Woelke, they must hit the
> pavement every day to raise enough cash for their drugs. Most steal. Many
> women work as prostitutes.
>
> “They have to do things they wouldn’t normally do.”
>
> This is exactly what some of Canada’s top addiction experts want to find
> out when they begin the first heroin prescription trial in North America.
>
> If heroin addicts are freed of their daily chase for drugs, if it is given
> to them three times a day like medicine, can they change their lives for
> the better?
>
> In a couple of weeks, the research team will begin taking applications
> here in Vancouver and later in Toronto and Montreal from addicts who want
> to be part of the study.
>
> Researchers are looking for hard-core addicts, people who have tried and
> failed at least twice to get clean. In the three cities, there are spots
> for 428 addicts, roughly half of whom will receive heroin for a year; the
> other half will receive methadone, an artificial opiate that controls the
> cravings for heroin.
>
> In Vancouver, the trials are causing a stir on the syringe-littered
> streets of the city’s skid row, home to more than 4,000 drug users. Among
> those who deal first hand with these chaotic lives, there’s a feeling that
> Canada is breaking new ground in how it treats the most intractable of
> drug addictions.
>
> Similar studies in the Netherlands and Switzerland have shown positive
> results for addicts.
>
> “What if you could say to an addict, ‘For the next little while, you’re
> not going to have to get your drugs from Al Capone. You can get your drugs
> from Marcus Welby,’ ” said Dr. Martin Schechter, the project’s lead
> researcher.
>
> “You don’t have to worry about this afternoon and this evening. And
> therefore, you don’t have to go and break in to cars or be a prostitute.
> You could actually come and talk to a counsellor or . . . get some skills
> training.”
>
> It’s a landmark study in North America, one that turns its back on
> abstinence as the goal.
>
> But not everyone is thrilled with the prospect of free heroin for
> hard-core addicts. And even supporters have expressed concern about the
> ethics of offering heroin to addicts for a prescribed period of time. Is
> it fair to yank away their heroin at the end of the year?
>
> Addiction experts in Canada have already expressed concerns about the risk
> of overdoses.
>
> Last December, two staff physicians at Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and
> Mental Health wrote scathing critiques to the ethics adviser of the
> Canadian Institutes of Health Research, the agency funding the study.
>
> Vancouver physician Stanley deVlaming is worried the trials are designed
> to garner positive results. In Vancouver, 88 subjects are to receive
> heroin, while 70 will receive methadone, the heroin substitute.
>
> “How meaningful will it be to compare the group of 88 elated subjects that
> win the heroin lottery to the group of 70 who were also desperately trying
> to get the free heroin, but lost the luck of the draw?” asked Dr.
> deVlaming, who has treated addicts in the Downtown Eastside for more than
> a dozen years.
>
> “The first group would likely be very motivated to give the researchers
> positive results, while the second disappointed and disgruntled group
> randomized to methadone would be much less motivated.”
>
> As expected, the plan has rankled U.S. drug officials, specifically the
> office of White House drug czar John Walters, where an official called it
> an unethical and “inhumane medical experiment.”
>
> Offering free heroin to addicts when there are proven treatments for
> addiction can’t be justified if the addict’s desire is to get off drugs,
> policy analyst David Murray s aid.
>
> “What you’re doing is making it easier to be a heroin addict,” he said
> from Washington. “These people won’t get that much better in the long run.
> They will still be heroin addicts.”
>
> Washington’s disapproval was expected and hasn’t deterred Ottawa from
> funding the study. The Canadian Institutes of Health Research has
> committed $8.1-million for the trials.
>
> In Vancouver, the plan has the support of top politicians and law
> enforcers, including the mayor and the police chief.
>
> Mayor Larry Campbell, who was once a coroner and drug cop, said the trials
> are needed because current treatments aren’t working for hard-core
> addicts.
>
> “The critical thing is to accept this as a medical condition,” Mr.
> Campbell said.
>
> “The side effects of this medical condition is that it forces you to . . .
> do things that you would never do, be it work as a sex-trade worker, be a
> B and E [break-and-enter] artist or a purse snatcher. So if I can mitigate
> that by putting you on heroin, imagine the changes you could have.”
>
> Right now, the trial is waiting for Health Canada to grant the necessary
> exemption form the Canadian Narcotics Act.
>
> Ms. Woelke said she plans to tell her friends to apply. She would be
> content to get on the methadone program.
>
> “Methadone, whatever,” she said shrugging her shoulders. “I need something
> every day.”
>
> <]=———————————————————————–=[>
> [ Moderated by: Preston Peet |
> .drugwar.com ]
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> |
> | To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
> |
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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Question on Small Dose(s) before Major Dose
Date: January 31, 2005 at 12:25:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“also small doses of ibo can be used ahead of the main
dose to quite safely keep the patient more
comfortable.”
Brett,
I am really interested in this idea. I would love
to hear your (or anyone elses too) experience
with that on or off list.
Cheers,
-J
___________________________________________________________
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Francis
Date: January 31, 2005 at 12:14:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Francis, I read your list and I was being sarcastic. Whoa ….. there goes a
shooting star, that’s way over your head too, aint it? Don’t ever say that I
don’t read the list and imply that you love it more than I do. This list pulled
me through very tough times, addicted and newly Ibonized too. Matter of fact
Ibogaine and this list has made my life so full that I don’t have the time I
used to to read everything on it. Just the ones that catch my attention. Yours
did. Sorry Randy
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 11:59:47 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Sara !!
You are absolutely right !! It’simple, clear and direct !
Love you
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: Sara Glatt
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:46 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Addiction is a mental disorder, a mental disorder isnt always addiction.
A mental disorder which some people like to self medicated , then they feel
Drugs like Heroin can be useful,which makes them addicted.
So you dont need to feel shame for wanting to feel better with yourself
But not finding the better way then drugs.
The wish to be free of that way and looking for a new way to feel
Better is a normal way for the body to say treat me nice ,
That is the only way to find harmoney , which is what everyone
Is craving within.
This is generally speaking.
Sara
Van: Jasen Chamoun [mailto:jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au] Verzonden: maandag 31 januari 2005 5:25 Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In my opinion,..it is both.
love
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In a message dated 30/01/2005 19:51:42 GMT Standard Time, rwd3@cox.net writes:
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat?
Interested in what you guys think????????????????
From: “Beatriz Brasil” <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Buprenorphine (Tks Patrick)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 12:04:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
So sorry all. Here you are in the old copy and paste style. Should have
stick to it in the first place. There are two articles, the first
introducing Bupre, the second is my son’s interview.
With love, Beatriz
South China Morning Post
Monday, January 31, 2005New drug may help heroin addicts Combined with
counselling it can work better than methadone, says scientist
MARY ANN BENITEZ Prev. Story | Next Story
Hong Kong should consider using a newer drug to treat heroin addicts
instead of relying on methadone which seldom helps people get on with their
lives, according to a visiting scientist. Heroin is the most commonly abused
drug in Hong Kong, making up almost three-quarters of registered cases,
according to government statistics.
Mahmud Mazland, a research scientist at Yale University and a consultant in
addiction psychiatry, said a one-year study found that buphrenorphine, a
synthetic opiate, lowered the risk of overdose. It also proved easier for
addicts to give up compared with methadone. Dr Mahmud gave a lecture
yesterday on recent advances in treating opiate dependence at a seminar
involving the Hong Kong College of Psychiatrists and Schering-Plough, the
manufacturer of the drug. Buphrenorphine works by blocking brain cell
receptors, decreasing the craving for heroin, opium, painkillers and other
opiates, Dr Mahmud said. A four-year study started in 2001 is being
conducted to look at the efficacy of buphrenorphine – also known as Subutex
in Asia. “It is not a miracle drug. It is a very important tool that helps
those who want to recover to do so in their own community without having the
stigma of being labelled as a drug addict,” Dr Mahmud said. “With long-term
care and a community-based treatment, they are able to work and able to have
a family.” Dr Mahmud said a buphrenorphine programme in Malaysia showed that
after a year of treating 79 heroin addicts, 43 were clean of heroin. Of
these, 35 were holding down jobs compared with 25 before the treatment
started. Treatment with buphrenorphine costs about $2,000 a month, including
psychotherapy, at private clinics in Hong Kong. By contrast, patients pay $1
a visit at the 20 methadone clinics subsidised by the government, costing
the taxpayer $20 million a year. Psychiatrist Stephen Ng Wai-man, who also
spoke at the seminar, said buphrenorphine was not commonly used in public
hospitals because it is expensive and needs experienced doctors to provide
counselling support. He explained that, “a lot of patients who take
methadone cannot work because of the sedating effect. After taking Subutex,
patients can work”. Dr Mahmud said the true extent of heroin addiction might
be two to three times more than the government figures suggest. “Once
treatment is easily accessible and efficacious, people will start to come.
They are a hidden population. “It is a terrible condition. A study has shown
that within the space of 20 years, two-thirds of heroin addicts will be dead
or missing [from treatment programmes] and presumed dead.”
South China Morning Post
Monday, January 31, 2005’I started snorting, then injecting … things got
pretty bad’ John used heroin to escape from reality, but his life has now
taken a turn for the better
MARY ANN BENITEZ Prev. Story | Next Story
John with psychiatrist Stephen Ng at a counselling session. Picture
by Antony Dickson
John was 13 when he started using heroin, just a year after his family moved
to Hong Kong from Brazil. “I am a drug addict. I was introduced by some
friends to heroin and it spiralled out of control from there,” said the 25
year old. “In my first year in Hong Kong, I realised that people leave all
the time, people are constantly moving, and I found that very hard. Like
many other things, it just made it difficult for me to adjust. “Then I moved
to another school and I was going through a major depression. A friend said:
`You are pretty stressed-out. I think you should try some smack’. I did not
even know what it was. “I started snorting heroin, but two years later I was
injecting it. I dropped out of school when I was 15 or 16, because my
reputation [from another school] followed me there. I went from job to job.
When I was 17, I was working part-time in a trading company doing
translation and that paid really well. “I had all this money and I did not
know what to do with it. I ended up spending it on drugs and parties, and by
the eighth month I was falling asleep on the job. Things got pretty bad.
“After that I ended up going to a rehabilitation clinic for the first time,
in Ireland, spending six weeks there. “I was doing it more for my mum
because she was having a nervous breakdown from the whole thing. “I managed
to stay clean for about two months. But it is very hard in Hong Kong. Drugs
are easily available. The government covers up how it is. It is easy to get
drugs in Hong Kong. You can walk to any district and get heroin. “It is
cheap and because it is so strong I do not need to do a whole bag a day.
“Eventually your resistance goes up so you start doing a lot more. “I have
tried all sorts of treatment methods: psychiatrists, psychologists, doctors,
psychoanalysts. “I was doing methadone in government clinics. I had periods
of sobriety, but eventually I would relapse. “I ended up on methadone, but
it was making me feel even more ill than the heroin did. I would be sleeping
for 20 hours a day, I had no energy, I could not work. I just wanted a way
out. “When you are a drug addict you need to realise that you are in a bad
place. It took me a long time to understand that. “Heroin for me was an
escape from a reality that I despise. I do not like the way the world is and
I find it very hard to adapt to a society that is so tuned in to money. “Dr
Stephen Ng and I came to an agreement that [buprenorphrine] is the drug for
me. Since I started doing it, the improvement has been incredible. I started
losing weight. “I go to the gym, I go out with my friends, I am working
part-time again. “To youngsters, rather than turn to drugs they should just
start talking to teach other. We live in a culture where we do not speak
about our feelings or voice our opinions. “I do not think so much about
blame. I come to think of it as a disease. I do not think so much about the
drugs, it is more about the way I feel, and the drugs are the solution. “My
main goal in life is to open an orphanage in Brazil.”
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: January 31, 2005 at 11:47:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie and all,
The vision thing is a big issue with me. Unlike yourself I didn’t require reading glasses until 10 years ago,( by then many years into using) however after the ibo I noticed my reading vision has deteriorated. The other day I had to ask my young nephew to read my fortune from the fortune cookie. To me it looked like a solid line. He swore to me it said “today is a good day to buy a present for someone you love !’ Anyway, this vision thing is one of the main reasons I am hesitant to try another session. Parts of me desperately would like to do it again and then the other part wants to watch and see the natural progression of coming off and out from under the effects of having taking ibogaine/being on methedone and heroin for over 20 years. My brother-in-law had fuzzy vision for a good 2-3 weeks after his session.
The sleeping thing: I’m coming up on six months out and for me about 6 weeks ago when I got my treadmill and starting using it really regularly is when I started to sleep through the night. About 10 days ago I wacked out my left knee on the treadmill from either too much incline work or enthusiasm. The mind was willing. I have to learn that moderation thing people keep telling me about. Since I have been laying off the treadmill I have been waking up after 5- hours sleep, awake for 1-2 hours and then resuming for another 2 hours.
Another thing for me to consider, since my right elbow seems to be creaking a bit as well is this me just now noticing damage and aches and pains from all those years of methedone (which as Preston pointed out was an amazing pain killer). You know how all the oldtimers on the programs are walking with canes. While I did a lot of damage control at times, with my diet, I feel a lot of those brittle bones form methedone can be partly from malnutrition.
The thing you also mentioned about dreams and memories, I’m also feeling like I am clearing a lot of old memories and past life stuff that’s been a thorn in my side thanks to the iboga.
I’d like to wait a while to see if there really is a such thing as “normal”.
So I’m just real curious what’s coming next as far as the progression goes without complicating it with coming off of another session. Although….
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:07 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
J.,
Just wanted to chime in with my experience. When I
first went on methadone, I had vision problems, and
had to get a prescription for spectacles, which I
would use for reading mostly.
After my Ibo detox, when I could actually see straight
again, I noticed I no longer needed to use the
glasses, as I could read books/papers/mags with my own
two eyes.
This leads me to believe that methadone might affect
your vision, and this is probably because it
constricts your pupils, thus limiting the amount of
light that hits your retinas. It’s so great to have
my glasses tucked away at the bottom of my sock
drawer.
Anyone else experience something similar?
Julie
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Randy
Date: January 31, 2005 at 11:45:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Randy !!
Hey Randy,
You wrote :
Man I have missed some good shit here lately. I wish I had seen
Francis’s
list of “How to win friends and influence Junkies” and could have been
current
with my reply.
Randy don’t take it personal but like you said ” I wish I had seen Franci’s
list. But you didn’t
The title wasn”t : “How to win friends and influence Junkies” 🙂
I will be realy under the influence to write a title like this, and if you
know how to influence Junkies,
let me know: ..I am dead serious 🙂
You wrote :
I’m not addicted anymore although I will forever be an ex-junkie. Most
of
the
people on this list forgive me for that, being clean or being a junkie I
get
respect most of the time. I aim to HELP when I can, be it supportive or
putting
out information, I aim to help. I just want everyone to be happy.
Getting
clean made me happy. Part of it sucks no doubt but not as bad as running
out of
dope and having no money to get well
* Same here.I have only one simple problem , I found out that I could help
better addicts or alcoholics only if I could talk or write to them Still
limitations of my human condition, I am working on changing my abilities, I
am realy thinking to go into bilocation and thought projection. 🙂 I mean
will it be that nice ? Slam ! Like Padre Pio or Saint Francis !
I appreciate your feedback, but we are talking of two different things : a
list that I wrote out of love and desesperation and a list that you never
read.
Please, read my list and I bet you will agree with me on a lot of point.
Francis
God bless you
I pass on you offert, you are not my type, but I still love you 🙂
Here’s one for the taboo list, don’t be a dick and insist
your
way is the only way to be happy. And here’s one for the hip list, Being
clean,
ie. I wish I had done this before and it makes me love everybody more,
clean
or not. I’ve fucked up my life so much in the past I couldn’t begin to
tell
someone the RIGHT way to live. I can relate my experience’s and hope it
helps
someone but I could never insist that I have it right and someone else
is
wrong.
I’m not addicted anymore although I will forever be an ex-junkie. Most
of
the
people on this list forgive me for that, being clean or being a junkie I
get
respect most of the time. I aim to HELP when I can, be it supportive or
putting
out information, I aim to help. I just want everyone to be happy.
Getting
clean made me happy. Part of it sucks no doubt but not as bad as running
out of
dope and having no money to get well. That’s my decission. I try and be
cool
with eveyone I come in contact with because the alternitive is
unacceptable. I
hate assholes and I try and avoid being one. I can be extremely
assholish
if I
want to, and am, when pushed into it. Trust me. I don’t want to be
confrontive, there is enough of that here as it is. I’m a tree huggin’,
gun totin’, music
playin’, (by the way, Vivaldi rocks, so do all the Wynin’s, hehe}
natural
herb ingesting mother fucker. I just don’t think I’m a fucking genuis
and
that my
way is the only way.Being clean works for me and I will gladly help
anyone
I
know with the information that I have. I’ll help people I don’t freakin’
know
for that matter but I aint out to force my will on someone else or to
take
their inventory for them. That’s just too fucking personal and
disrespectful for
my way. So in closing just let me add one more thing to the hip list.
BLOWJOBS
ie. the one you can give me if you can’t dig what I am saying. How’s
that
for
being confrontive, or is that abusive? I’m just not good at this shit.
Randy
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 31, 2005 at 11:31:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Schmooleyboy,
Not to offend but I read many of your posts where my understanding and experience is contrary to yours. It reminds me of being a patient, the good “DOCTOR” says whatever he says of how a certain medication./procedure is going to do or what “our” goals are, or the infamous “this won’t hurt” and time after time it is like they read it in a book somewhere. I have tried Zoloft and very many other drugs, there is enormous variouation in effects and side effects in patient to patient. They told me I would be a “new man” on zoloft, in 8 days I was a new woman and starting to feel very uncomfortable from the medication. I normally get paradoxical reactions, dope makes me WIRED, time after time I tell doctors about my side effects, time after time I get ignored, time after time they do medicine “by the numbers” – xome dose of some drug, time after time they are wrong and I am right, time after time I suffer and they get a pay check. Time after time I se
THere is this comment;
“Please please do this..”. All Ibo takers should be of meth for 72 hours prior to Ibo. Switch to short acting opiates. Morphine, hydro or oxy , all work well. Dilaudid works well”
For many addicts it switching to short acting opiates is a real BAD IDEA… everything needs to be in its context (the patient, the resources at hand), everything is not THIS WAY OR THAT. I also know many people who have been treated quite safely and successfully taking ibo long before 72 hours post meth, also small doses of ibo can be used ahead of the main dose to quite safely keep the patient more comfortable.
Or this
“Ibogaine does NOT reduce or relieve nicotine cravings but may reduce nicotine withdrawal physical symptoms. ”
Sorry it didn’t work FOR YOU that way (you did try it, you do know how it feels to quit smoking using ibogaine, RIGHT?). Ibogaine ABSOLUTELY, works for reducing cravings, that is why people spontainously don’t smoke for a period of time (sometimes, not all the time), post ibogaine. Mileage on everyting varies. Lets see, in my case the first 8 or so times I dosed IBO I smoked right through a few times, stopped for period lasting from days to weels – TILL THE CRAVINGS CAME BACK, the last time I smoked through ibo session (left it alone) and a week later stopped, never looked back and only had moments of cravings. Oddly some weeks later (as the NOR-IBO levels went down ?) it got a little harder (more cravings) then eased back down.
Or my very favorite (in the same email)
“Post IBO pot initially appears to calm anxiety but it’s sum total is actually to increase anxiety and only reinforces the mind set which we wish to break which is SYMPTOM= SUBSTANCE.”
Some people do well with pot, some people don’t do well with pot, everybody is different.
It is a perfectly natural thing for someone to take a substance if they have a symptom, the problems come in with intent, if the “symptom” is you want to get high, well then yeah, that is the one we have to break, if it is because you have say a pain, or nervous condtion, or maybe it is the 3rd day post ibo and you haven’t slept then a substance may be indicated. I am not talking about every little ache or anxiety, WHEN IT WILL HELP – in the big picture as well as short term relief in a manner inconsistant with addiction and consistant.
I drink camomile tea to help sleep.I have valium and ristoril, rarely-occasionally use them in small doses (1.25mg valium mostly, sometimes 2.5mg – or 1/2 a valium, 15mg or ristori)..
I have pain and deep breath, do Yoga, go to the chiropractor – sometimes those things can actually hurt more than help, sometimes the answer isn’t taking toxic amounts of ineffective NSAIDS and tylenol… and I take whatever, these days it is Dilaudid (break 2mg in 1/2 and take 1mg at a time – max about 5 mg), just discontinued oxycontin 2 weeks ago (just stopped, no ibo, no weaning), Actiq which is fentanyl citrate lolly-pops when it gets bad but fentanyl does bad things to my head, some SOMA (again 1/4th at a time). Absolutely nothing wrong with taking those meds in the way I do, typically very measured and methodical. 2 years ago when I landed at a pain management doc I had to ask myself “HOW?”, the answer I got was “WHEN IT WILL HELP”.
So, if it helps one should take it, if it won’t help, then one should not take it – whichever way the scales tip is what is indicated, depending on that particular patient/person. When it will help then someone could possible use marijuana or maybe prescription drug, or whatever then it should be applied.I have good “doctors” keep trying to apply poisonous substances to me regardless of what I tell them (if they dont’ listen they have zero probability of helping and nearly 100% chance of hurting me – but that is typically what happens, especially with pain patients and addiction medicine. I have doctors that want to keep giving me drugs doing more harm, that have failed in the past, that seems to make no difference to them. that I don’t use “addictive” drugs seems to take priority over everything, real or imagined…
Brett
Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:
By the wat Zoloft must be taken for 4 weeks continuously to have any anti-anxiety effect. and a mild one at that. It does little for benzo withdrawal. Zyprexa and Seroquel work much better.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] AA and Gurus
Date: January 31, 2005 at 10:58:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Randy !!
Dr. Bob had the same problem when he discover the power of Vitamins B
against alcoholism. He shoot himself and few of his friends with B’s but
could’nt talk about it in meetings.
I have some people from NA who are very interested in Ibogaine. I give
them the documentation. I think, in my humble opinion, that the program +
Ibogaine will be a killer !!
” Meetings makers make it” The meetings are wonderful to learnt how to
relate to others and to downsize our F@# ego and start to think of others.
I realy love the program.it’s like a big familly, a big mafia. Actualy, I
try to work mostly with people in recovery. The money stay in the familly
🙂 and it’s wonderful to see the progress of people putting back their
life together.For esample :I have a friend who is going back to see his
familly after tomorrow, you should see the man !! Trying to lose weight,
putting some money together, buying gifts for his kids !! Is a miracle to
see a man who spent 10 years in jail to grow as a responsible, caring
adult.They told us ” wait for the miracles…..” I am watching the miracles
everyday.
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] AA and Gurus
Francis, my last post to you was tongue in cheek but I meant what I said.
I’m
with you on the subject of AA and Guru’s. Bill W. and DR. Bob’s book and
organazation saved me in a big way. So did Howard and the information he
kept
insisting on putting out to the masses. I am eternaly grateful for all of
the
people who have helped me on my way. My sponsor in Erie is a great man but
when I
told him about Ibogaine he rolled his eye’s and started talking about mind
altering substance’s and all anyone needs is meetings. Bullshit, you have
to
treat the addiction first and I told him that. We plesantly disagreed. I
go to
meetings to get what I need from them, not what someone tells me that I
need.
Ibogaine has made me way more intuitive. I still have a sponsor who loves
me, and
I love him, we just disagree on some things. He just wants me to do well.
I’m
trying to give back what was so freely given to me in my own way.
Randy
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From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Buprenorphine (Tks Patrick)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 10:41:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Isn’t this a great list, Beatriz? Here’s hoping for continued
good things coming to you and your son.
ann
aka mama to Biscuitboy
think@francomm.com
—– Original Message —– From: “Beatriz Brasil” <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Buprenorphine (Tks Patrick)
Dear Patrick, Dear List members
I am enclosing herewith two links to articles on bupre published today at
the local paper. One of them is an interview with my son and his experience
with buprenorphine maintenance.
Thank you so much Patrick. What you once wrote about how you felt towards
the buprenorphine maintenance led me to further consider it as an
alternative for my son.
Thank you list for having me here.
I will let you know when we get to Ibogaine. And yes, I am a mom, too.
Beatriz
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZEPF9HJ3E.html
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZM1YAHJ3E.html
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From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Buprenorphine (Tks Patrick)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 10:16:38 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
HI:
anyway to get this link w/o subscribing to the newspaper? thanks , ron
—– Original Message —– From: “Beatriz Brasil” <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Buprenorphine (Tks Patrick)
Dear Patrick, Dear List members
I am enclosing herewith two links to articles on bupre published today at
the local paper. One of them is an interview with my son and his experience
with buprenorphine maintenance.
Thank you so much Patrick. What you once wrote about how you felt towards
the buprenorphine maintenance led me to further consider it as an
alternative for my son.
Thank you list for having me here.
I will let you know when we get to Ibogaine. And yes, I am a mom, too.
Beatriz
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZEPF9HJ3E.html
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZM1YAHJ3E.html
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Buprenorphine (Tks Patrick)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 10:07:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Beatriz, in the articles about your son? The web
page won’t load it unless you subscribe to that
newspaper, can you reprint what it says?
Happy your son is doing good 🙂
Carla B
— Beatriz Brasil <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>
wrote:
Dear Patrick, Dear List members
I am enclosing herewith two links to articles on
bupre published today at
the local paper. One of them is an interview with my
son and his experience
with buprenorphine maintenance.
Thank you so much Patrick. What you once wrote about
how you felt towards
the buprenorphine maintenance led me to further
consider it as an
alternative for my son.
Thank you list for having me here.
I will let you know when we get to Ibogaine. And
yes, I am a mom, too.
Beatriz
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZEPF9HJ3E.html
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZM1YAHJ3E.html
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Canada: Is Free Heroin Just a Quick Fix?
Date: January 31, 2005 at 9:45:52 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
snip from the article below:
“Sometimes you need something just to relax and get your mind together,
instead of always being in a state of panic. That’s what’s killing everyone
down here,” she said, pointing to the throngs of bedraggled souls shuffling
along East Hastings Street. Like Ms. Woelke, they must hit the pavement
every day to raise enough cash for their drugs. Most steal. Many women work
as prostitutes.
“They have to do things they wouldn’t normally do.”
This is exactly what some of Canada’s top addiction experts want to find
out when they begin the first heroin prescription trial in North America.
If heroin addicts are freed of their daily chase for drugs, if it is given
to them three times a day like medicine, can they change their lives for
the better?<
This woman has it nailed with her comment about the panic being what’s killinng all her addict frieds and acquaintances on the streets.
There’s more below. Too awesome. This is what we should be doing, ALONG with offering addicts ibogaine and methadone and whatever else it may take to get them to a point where THEY, the ADDICTS- not Nick, or the Court, or Preston Peet, or the police and judges, or Bill W., or the Bwiti, or whomever it is- feel they are most happy. Not “they’re a drag,” not they just be integrated into society along with everyone else, not they must be forced into participating in life, none of that is a good criteria for action or even worthy goals IN MY OPINION. The main goals in my mind are to enable each and every person to live happily as possible to the extent they are not hurting others while making themselves happy, to reduce as many possible harms to the addict and the rest of society too without forcing anyone into anything against their will.
I’m pretty sure that the authorities involved in this effort will notice a drop in crime on the part of the participant, and even probably a climb in things like employemnnt and other markers like this.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:20 AM
Subject: [DrugWar] Canada: Is Free Heroin Just a Quick Fix?
Newshawk: CMAP http://www.mapinc.org/cmap
Pubdate: Mon, 31 Jan 2005
Source: Globe and Mail (Canada)
Page: A1 – Front Page
Copyright: 2005, The Globe and Mail Company
Contact: letters@globeandmail.ca
Website: http://www.globeandmail.ca/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/168
Author: Jane Armstrong
Cited: Centre for Addiction and Mental Health http://www.camh.net/
Cited: Canadian Institutes of Health Research http://www.cihr-irsc.gc.ca/
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/heroin.htm (Heroin)
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?136 (Methadone)
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/topics/Downtown+Eastside
IS FREE HEROIN JUST A QUICK FIX?
VANCOUVER — On a warm, rainy Saturday morning, Debbie Woelke stops pushing her shopping cart long enough to discuss the pros and cons of a plan to give free heroin to drug addicts in Canada’s poorest neighbourhood.
The heroin trial is all the talk of Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside and Ms. Woelke, 48, thinks it’s a good idea. She might even apply, herself. “They should have done this a long time ago,” she said leaning on her cart, which contains all her worldly belongings — not groceries.
Like other addicts, Ms. Woelke lives in a bleak rented room in a residential hotel. Far better to be outside in the rain, even if it means wheeling around your clothes all day.
“Sometimes you need something just to relax and get your mind together, instead of always being in a state of panic. That’s what’s killing everyone down here,” she said, pointing to the throngs of bedraggled souls shuffling along East Hastings Street. Like Ms. Woelke, they must hit the pavement every day to raise enough cash for their drugs. Most steal. Many women work as prostitutes.
“They have to do things they wouldn’t normally do.”
This is exactly what some of Canada’s top addiction experts want to find out when they begin the first heroin prescription trial in North America.
If heroin addicts are freed of their daily chase for drugs, if it is given to them three times a day like medicine, can they change their lives for the better?
In a couple of weeks, the research team will begin taking applications here in Vancouver and later in Toronto and Montreal from addicts who want to be part of the study.
Researchers are looking for hard-core addicts, people who have tried and failed at least twice to get clean. In the three cities, there are spots for 428 addicts, roughly half of whom will receive heroin for a year; the other half will receive methadone, an artificial opiate that controls the cravings for heroin.
In Vancouver, the trials are causing a stir on the syringe-littered streets of the city’s skid row, home to more than 4,000 drug users. Among those who deal first hand with these chaotic lives, there’s a feeling that Canada is breaking new ground in how it treats the most intractable of drug addictions.
Similar studies in the Netherlands and Switzerland have shown positive results for addicts.
“What if you could say to an addict, ‘For the next little while, you’re not going to have to get your drugs from Al Capone. You can get your drugs from Marcus Welby,’ ” said Dr. Martin Schechter, the project’s lead researcher.
“You don’t have to worry about this afternoon and this evening. And therefore, you don’t have to go and break in to cars or be a prostitute. You could actually come and talk to a counsellor or . . . get some skills training.”
It’s a landmark study in North America, one that turns its back on abstinence as the goal.
But not everyone is thrilled with the prospect of free heroin for hard-core addicts. And even supporters have expressed concern about the ethics of offering heroin to addicts for a prescribed period of time. Is it fair to yank away their heroin at the end of the year?
Addiction experts in Canada have already expressed concerns about the risk of overdoses.
Last December, two staff physicians at Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and Mental Health wrote scathing critiques to the ethics adviser of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, the agency funding the study.
Vancouver physician Stanley deVlaming is worried the trials are designed to garner positive results. In Vancouver, 88 subjects are to receive heroin, while 70 will receive methadone, the heroin substitute.
“How meaningful will it be to compare the group of 88 elated subjects that win the heroin lottery to the group of 70 who were also desperately trying to get the free heroin, but lost the luck of the draw?” asked Dr. deVlaming, who has treated addicts in the Downtown Eastside for more than a dozen years.
“The first group would likely be very motivated to give the researchers positive results, while the second disappointed and disgruntled group randomized to methadone would be much less motivated.”
As expected, the plan has rankled U.S. drug officials, specifically the office of White House drug czar John Walters, where an official called it an unethical and “inhumane medical experiment.”
Offering free heroin to addicts when there are proven treatments for addiction can’t be justified if the addict’s desire is to get off drugs, policy analyst David Murray said.
“What you’re doing is making it easier to be a heroin addict,” he said from Washington. “These people won’t get that much better in the long run. They will still be heroin addicts.”
Washington’s disapproval was expected and hasn’t deterred Ottawa from funding the study. The Canadian Institutes of Health Research has committed $8.1-million for the trials.
In Vancouver, the plan has the support of top politicians and law enforcers, including the mayor and the police chief.
Mayor Larry Campbell, who was once a coroner and drug cop, said the trials are needed because current treatments aren’t working for hard-core addicts.
“The critical thing is to accept this as a medical condition,” Mr. Campbell said.
“The side effects of this medical condition is that it forces you to . . . do things that you would never do, be it work as a sex-trade worker, be a B and E [break-and-enter] artist or a purse snatcher. So if I can mitigate that by putting you on heroin, imagine the changes you could have.”
Right now, the trial is waiting for Health Canada to grant the necessary exemption form the Canadian Narcotics Act.
Ms. Woelke said she plans to tell her friends to apply. She would be content to get on the methadone program.
“Methadone, whatever,” she said shrugging her shoulders. “I need something every day.”
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Randy
Date: January 31, 2005 at 7:35:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
M, I missed a lot of my son growing up too, but he and I have come to grips
with that. I try and not dwell on what I can’t change. Letting him see me doing
well is the best thing I can do for our relationship. I reflect on the past
but I don’t mourn it like I used to, I think Ibogaine helped me there. I can
now see that not all of my past sucked, I did some pretty cool stuff addicted or
not. My ex and I gave our son life, that’s as loving as it gets. He
appreciate’s it and I hope your daughter does too. I love all children. I think they
make life worth the effort. Hopefully our children will learn from us and have a
better life. It is real good to hear from you. Randy
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 6:33:19 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In my opinion it’s neither! Just a temporary learning tool.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Jasen Chamoun [mailto:jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: 31 January 2005 04:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In my opinion,..it is both.
love
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In a message dated 30/01/2005 19:51:42 GMT Standard Time, rwd3@cox.net writes:
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat?
Interested in what you guys think????????????????
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] AA and Gurus
Date: January 31, 2005 at 6:32:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Francis, my last post to you was tongue in cheek but I meant what I said. I’m
with you on the subject of AA and Guru’s. Bill W. and DR. Bob’s book and
organazation saved me in a big way. So did Howard and the information he kept
insisting on putting out to the masses. I am eternaly grateful for all of the
people who have helped me on my way. My sponsor in Erie is a great man but when I
told him about Ibogaine he rolled his eye’s and started talking about mind
altering substance’s and all anyone needs is meetings. Bullshit, you have to
treat the addiction first and I told him that. We plesantly disagreed. I go to
meetings to get what I need from them, not what someone tells me that I need.
Ibogaine has made me way more intuitive. I still have a sponsor who loves me, and
I love him, we just disagree on some things. He just wants me to do well. I’m
trying to give back what was so freely given to me in my own way.
Randy
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 31, 2005 at 6:05:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Donna, I agree with just about everything that Nick has said to you. I just
don’t know where these providers are that are giving treatments without having
some aftercare in place. At least plans of aftercare. In my quest for
treatment I talked to people in Amsterdam, Mexico, St. Kitts, Canada and 3 different
undergroud providers and everyone of them wanted to know what aftercare I was
going to pursue. No one chased me around telling me I had to be clean or
anything like that. I went to them and asked for help and I finaly got it. Maybe
Ibogaine doesn’t work for everyone but it did for me. Nick’s protocol looks
pretty good. I just want to say that I am glad I had an experienced provider with
me to help me process what was going on, and a lot went on believe me. They
don’t just hook you up and empty the bucket when you puke. My provider helped me
to experience one of the most beautiful things I have ever been through. Oh it
sucked too, believe that, it’s hard work tripping for 2 days, my provider
helped me focos on the positive aspects instead of the negative aspects and so
far so good. I’ve had therapy, lots of 12 step meetings and I keep my head in
the Ibogaine list and it seems to be working for me. I want the best for you,
and it sounds like you know what you want, so go for it. Be careful, Ibogaine is
not anything to be taken lightly. Life ROCKS turn it up. Randy
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 31, 2005 at 5:34:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Kiss Hugs (avert yon eyes KEN!! Lol)
That’s some extremely important information there and it is muchas grassy ass thankyou heapz n heapz.
I must ask my done chemist, she’s funny… originally from Ireland, she spilt my dose the other day and said (fuk) under her breath, so I laughed and said does it come out of your pocket? She then muttered no, but it’s a fukking nusience cos I have to account for it all and now I have to email the fukken basterds….. just sounded funny coming from a pharmacist, I’m used to extremely straight ones!!! All said in a Dublin style accent! (rewatching commitments at the mo, luff the irish)
Anyway, where wuz i? oh yeh my pharm., she may be open minded, or just swears lots……
Thanks again
Kirsty
From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com [mailto:Schmoolyboy@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, 31 January 2005 5:15 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
5 HTP should only be taken for 4 -5 days on then 2-3 days off. It’s meabolism is speeded up every day you take it. So the conversion of 5 HTP to HT to seretonin is faster every day you take it. After 4 days usage at dosages of 100mgs nightly, it turns to seretonin so fast that it can not get through the blood brain barrier and then you have all this seretonin in the peripheral vascular system which can increase anxiety.
The seretonin only works if it gets to the brain . Stopping for as little as 2 days allows the liver to normalize again.
Doubt this… well look it up. You will see I am right.
Ht was legal in the early 80’s People started to get a muscle problem call Eosiniphilia Myalgia Syndrome. The Gov. thought it was due to HT and made HT available by RX only. Later, the CDC found out it was not the HT causing the problem but one particular Chinese manufacture of HT that made it in lead pots and thus the heavy metals where causing the muscle problem and not the HT. Yet, they left it by RX only and 5 HT available over the counter despite it’s problems with hepatic enhanced metabolism.
No companies make HT but a Doc can prescribe it and a compounding pharmacist can make it for you. A months supply costs about $25. Hope this helps
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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From: “FakePlacebo” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] To Randy
Date: January 31, 2005 at 4:59:13 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Randy,
I’m totaly agreed what you are saying but sometimes I feel like I’m late for
life. I missed so many things. For example I missed all childhood of my
doughter. What do you say about this?
Best Regards
FakePlacebo
—– Original Message —–
From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis
Man I have missed some good shit here lately. I wish I had seen Francis’s
list of “How to win friends and influence Junkies” and could have been
current
with my reply. Here’s one for the taboo list, don’t be a dick and insist
your
way is the only way to be happy. And here’s one for the hip list, Being
clean,
ie. I wish I had done this before and it makes me love everybody more,
clean
or not. I’ve fucked up my life so much in the past I couldn’t begin to
tell
someone the RIGHT way to live. I can relate my experience’s and hope it
helps
someone but I could never insist that I have it right and someone else is
wrong.
I’m not addicted anymore although I will forever be an ex-junkie. Most of
the
people on this list forgive me for that, being clean or being a junkie I
get
respect most of the time. I aim to HELP when I can, be it supportive or
putting
out information, I aim to help. I just want everyone to be happy. Getting
clean made me happy. Part of it sucks no doubt but not as bad as running
out of
dope and having no money to get well. That’s my decission. I try and be
cool
with eveyone I come in contact with because the alternitive is
unacceptable. I
hate assholes and I try and avoid being one. I can be extremely assholish
if I
want to, and am, when pushed into it. Trust me. I don’t want to be
confrontive, there is enough of that here as it is. I’m a tree huggin’,
gun totin’, music
playin’, (by the way, Vivaldi rocks, so do all the Wynin’s, hehe} natural
herb ingesting mother fucker. I just don’t think I’m a fucking genuis and
that my
way is the only way.Being clean works for me and I will gladly help anyone
I
know with the information that I have. I’ll help people I don’t freakin’
know
for that matter but I aint out to force my will on someone else or to take
their inventory for them. That’s just too fucking personal and
disrespectful for
my way. So in closing just let me add one more thing to the hip list.
BLOWJOBS
ie. the one you can give me if you can’t dig what I am saying. How’s that
for
being confrontive, or is that abusive? I’m just not good at this shit.
Randy
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis
Date: January 31, 2005 at 3:58:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Man I have missed some good shit here lately. I wish I had seen Francis’s
list of “How to win friends and influence Junkies” and could have been current
with my reply. Here’s one for the taboo list, don’t be a dick and insist your
way is the only way to be happy. And here’s one for the hip list, Being clean,
ie. I wish I had done this before and it makes me love everybody more, clean
or not. I’ve fucked up my life so much in the past I couldn’t begin to tell
someone the RIGHT way to live. I can relate my experience’s and hope it helps
someone but I could never insist that I have it right and someone else is wrong.
I’m not addicted anymore although I will forever be an ex-junkie. Most of the
people on this list forgive me for that, being clean or being a junkie I get
respect most of the time. I aim to HELP when I can, be it supportive or putting
out information, I aim to help. I just want everyone to be happy. Getting
clean made me happy. Part of it sucks no doubt but not as bad as running out of
dope and having no money to get well. That’s my decission. I try and be cool
with eveyone I come in contact with because the alternitive is unacceptable. I
hate assholes and I try and avoid being one. I can be extremely assholish if I
want to, and am, when pushed into it. Trust me. I don’t want to be
confrontive, there is enough of that here as it is. I’m a tree huggin’, gun totin’, music
playin’, (by the way, Vivaldi rocks, so do all the Wynin’s, hehe} natural
herb ingesting mother fucker. I just don’t think I’m a fucking genuis and that my
way is the only way.Being clean works for me and I will gladly help anyone I
know with the information that I have. I’ll help people I don’t freakin’ know
for that matter but I aint out to force my will on someone else or to take
their inventory for them. That’s just too fucking personal and disrespectful for
my way. So in closing just let me add one more thing to the hip list. BLOWJOBS
ie. the one you can give me if you can’t dig what I am saying. How’s that for
being confrontive, or is that abusive? I’m just not good at this shit.
Randy
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From: “FakePlacebo” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] To Miss Iboga / [Ibogaine] Hyperactivity- Ann
Date: January 31, 2005 at 3:46:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes,
I was an hyperactive kid too; and I think I’m still unpeacefull one,
restless one.
Best Regards
FakePlacebo
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hyperactivity- Ann
Hi Ann,
You wrote:
**I wonder too? I also wonder if there is a
coorelation to “hyperactivity”
in
childhood?
Just wanted to let you know, that I WAS a hyperactive
child. I had to be taken off sugar and red
food-colouring until about 9/10 years old.
I find your hypothesis very thought-provoking, and
would be interested in hearing how many of us were
hyperactive as children. Maybe this is why we were
drawn to the opiate class of drugs…??
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Date: January 31, 2005 at 1:46:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Addiction is a mental disorder, a mental disorder isn’t always addiction.
A mental disorder which some people like to self medicated , then they feel
Drugs like Heroin can be useful,which makes them addicted.
So you don’t need to feel shame for wanting to feel better with yourself
But not finding the better way then drugs.
The wish to be free of that way and looking for a new way to feel
Better is a normal way for the body to say “treat me nice “,
That is the only way to find harmoney , which is what everyone
Is craving within.
This is generally speaking.
Sara
Van: Jasen Chamoun [mailto:jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au] Verzonden: maandag 31 januari 2005 5:25 Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In my opinion,..it is both.
love
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In a message dated 30/01/2005 19:51:42 GMT Standard Time, rwd3@cox.net writes:
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat?
Interested in what you guys think????????????????
From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] AA and Gurus
Date: January 31, 2005 at 12:49:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Francis. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I can’t say I agree with you on very much, but truthfully I have no more desire to debate any of this stuff. Whatever makes you happy or healthy or whatever… You certainly haven’t disappointed me!
Best to you and all others – Sandy
>From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] AA and Gurus
>Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:58:37 -0500
>
>Hi Sandy !!
> In the true spirit of AA and NA, I have to bring my 2 cents 🙂
>
>You wrote:
> ” I’ve been trying to avoid this discussion, since it DOES seem pointless to try to change anyone’s mind.”
>
>* : “DOES seem pointless ” It’s seem point less but is NOT. In the rooms for the last 60 years and now in more than 150 000 Club houses all over the planet, they are tryng or actualy are changing the mind of hard core alcoholics and addicts.
>Quite a successful journey 🙂 If you think that all started with a couple of broke drunks
>
>you wrote :
> ” I was told over and over at AA; that everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to”
>* Everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to . God know best what is good for you . This statement is for people who are clean and sober.People who gave up their will for God will. This do not apply always and everywhere. Will be to simple, don’t you think ?
>
>You follow with:
> “that everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to – so if Preston and myself are still “using,” that’s perfect.
> I don’t understand – but I don’t think anyone really understands any of it very well (even the “self-proclaimed gurus.”).
>
>* you wrote that you “don’t understand “and that OK because you started with a wrong explanation and a deformation of the thought of AA. You wrote ” but I don’t think anyone really understands any of it very well ” You right, this a paradox and only people who gave up the fight agins their addiction like in Step One and surrender to a power greater then themselves can understand it. Spirituality is mysterious and don’t follow ours human rules. How the infinitely small can understant the infinitely great ?
>About the ” self proclamed gurus ” All the Gurus are self proclaimed contrary to the rest of us who could be elected..Generaly they do so out of a strong personal spiritual experience. Some could proclaime too themself as leaders out of crazyness, power or greed. I guess the only way to recognize the bad apple from the good ones is trought the study of their lifes and fruits.
>In my humble opinion true gurus where Bob and Bill from AA regarding addictions and this came after a very stong spiritual experience for one of them. The man who discover Ibogaine and the use of it against addiction is a guru .
>From Guru : 17 century Sanscrit ” Elder, Teacher “.
>
> Sorry, if I disapointed you. 🙁
>
>God bless
>
>Francis
>P. S Regarding Preston, I am sorry to know that he suffers from great physical pain. Is case is different, and I want to apologize to him if I hurted is feeling in anyway.
>
>From: booker w
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 5:21 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
>
>
> Hi. I’ve been trying to avoid this discussion, since it DOES seem pointless to try to change anyone’s mind. But Nick, how about all the fat people…should we force them into “rehab” too, or at least go shopping with them and cook their food and exercise them. They’re obviously draining the planet’s “good” vibes by their excess, not too mention all the animal suffering (it’s probably impossible to be fat and a vegan.) I mention fatness because two of my best friends are literally dying from morbid obesity. Watching them eat is like watching a dying junkie shoot up. It’s damn difficult to see, and I offer whatever I can for them, but I don’t support holding a gun to their head… (or forced rehab either.)
>
> Preston, I support your position completely, but I think you’re probably right to give up the fight. Nick, you’ve always been great to me, but yeah, I agree with Howard. You were so into “the world is doomed,” and now I guess you’ve changed that stance and want to help alleviate suffering, which is great! But, just like most of us, we want everyone else to change and think we know just how they should do it. Don’t worry, I think that all the time myself, but I know it’s mistaken. One of the precepts I was told over and over at AA; that everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to – so if Preston and myself are still “using,” that’s perfect. Why that’s perfect, I don’t understand – but I don’t think anyone really understands any of it very well (even the “self-proclaimed gurus.”) Another thing that I also learned in AA is that it’s not really my business what anyone else is doing. Just concentrate on “my side of the street.” (Another damn difficult thing to do.) There’s chaos, then there’s order, then chaos again… that’s the only idea that makes any sense to me anymore…
>
> Best to all, Sandy
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Date: January 30, 2005 at 11:24:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In my opinion,..it is both.
love
Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
In a message dated 30/01/2005 19:51:42 GMT Standard Time, rwd3@cox.net writes:
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat?
Interested in what you guys think????????????????
From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 30, 2005 at 11:19:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
effexor increases serotonin initially and after 2 weeks also increase epinephrine thus increasing anxiety
From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 30, 2005 at 11:16:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
By the wat Zoloft must be taken for 4 weeks continuously to have any anti-anxiety effect. and a mild one at that. It does little for benzo withdrawal. Zyprexa and Seroquel work much better.
From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 30, 2005 at 11:15:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
5 HTP should only be taken for 4 -5 days on then 2-3 days off. It’s meabolism is speeded up every day you take it. So the conversion of 5 HTP to HT to seretonin is faster every day you take it. After 4 days usage at dosages of 100mgs nightly, it turns to seretonin so fast that it can not get through the blood brain barrier and then you have all this seretonin in the peripheral vascular system which can increase anxiety.
The seretonin only works if it gets to the brain . Stopping for as little as 2 days allows the liver to normalize again.
Doubt this… well look it up. You will see I am right.
Ht was legal in the early 80’s People started to get a muscle problem call Eosiniphilia Myalgia Syndrome. The Gov. thought it was due to HT and made HT available by RX only. Later, the CDC found out it was not the HT causing the problem but one particular Chinese manufacture of HT that made it in lead pots and thus the heavy metals where causing the muscle problem and not the HT. Yet, they left it by RX only and 5 HT available over the counter despite it’s problems with hepatic enhanced metabolism.
No companies make HT but a Doc can prescribe it and a compounding pharmacist can make it for you. A months supply costs about $25. Hope this helps
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] US: Dr. Ecstasy
Date: January 30, 2005 at 11:14:48 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Preston,
You are a cool dude.
love ya mate,..Jasen
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:53 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] US: Dr. Ecstasy
Hey,
Maybe we should lock up Dr. Shulgin and his wife. Or force them to take ibogaine and if it doesn’t “work” (and that’s something else btw, mentioned in Randy’s post- ibogaine DID work for me folks- I got exactly what I wanted and needed from taking ibogaine I feel, and will do it again at some point, quite possibly more than once too) get the government to coerce them into stopping their obviously illegal and destructive drug use.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE: Nick
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:58:39 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
” – Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:50:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Howard,yes I was taking the suboxone mix ,but I have been reassured that the naloxone isnt absorbed orally ,only if it is iv’d.Hmmm ,hope thats true.I was on an iddy biddy amount ,only used 4mg over 23 days ,the last 2 weeks I split up a 2mg pill into crumbs & took decreasing amounts.The md told me the 1/2 life was 4-5 days.I dont know if saras will work out ,but I sure miss being sober.Thanks for your support-shell
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/30/05 11:05:10 AM, skrupa20022002@yahoo.com writes:
>Hi everyone! I took my last buprenex dose this am.Dont know how bad
withdrawal
>will get ,but I know Im in the right place for support as needed.They tell
>me bup w/d is very long but milder ,any ibonauts hve experience in this
>arena.Im considering ibogaine if this gets too tough,probably sara’s. Not
>really wanting to go to mexico again ,love those folks but dont really
>want the clinical setting deal, no angels around that I know of, I would
>never do it alone even tho Ive done it 3 times.All this tuff love stuff
>has me wondering how many times do I choose to go thru this, feeling like
>the detox queen here,what would my life be like if I wasnt doing this once
>or twice a year?Love yall, ill keep you posted -shell
Shelly,
If you are treating withdrawal and not addiction much lower doses of ibogaine
can be used. Buprenorphine binds to receptors for quite a long time. Some
of its metabolites may hang out for weeks. Even 150 mg HCl may have a
significant effect on moderating dependence as well as producing psychotherapeutic
benefits in some subjects. I would wait until you are experiencing withdrawal as
a matter of safety until more is known about burpenorphine and ibogaine
interaction. You might even start with 50mg HCl just to test the waters. Was your
last dose of burprenex 1mg and just to make sure you are not taking the
naloxone mix are you? I think going to Sara’s is a good idea even if it is not
tough going. It is like something to do. And with Sara there is so much more
than ibogaine/iboga.
Howard
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Tribe
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:14:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Couple of Nice Video Clips:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iboga.org%2Ffr%2Fcheyssial%2F1.htm&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Beatriz Brasil” <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Buprenorphine (Tks Patrick)
Date: January 30, 2005 at 9:27:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Patrick, Dear List members
I am enclosing herewith two links to articles on bupre published today at
the local paper. One of them is an interview with my son and his experience
with buprenorphine maintenance.
Thank you so much Patrick. What you once wrote about how you felt towards
the buprenorphine maintenance led me to further consider it as an
alternative for my son.
Thank you list for having me here.
I will let you know when we get to Ibogaine. And yes, I am a mom, too.
Beatriz
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZEPF9HJ3E.html
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZM1YAHJ3E.html
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] vegans
Date: January 30, 2005 at 8:25:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I will be very interested to hear how she is in another couple of years….
Please note, I’m not dumping on veganism and although I am a full on
carnivore I hate the mass killing of animals (and testing) and I try to eat
organic where I can (the supermarket shit is just that SHIT),specially
eggs…hate battery farms, they’re disgusting and I’d love to put the owners
into a cage for a few years…
Anyway…still waiting for the 7 year vegan woman to show up! lol
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, 31 January 2005 1:52 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] vegans
My girlfriend V has been militantly Vegan since Oct. 2000. She says she is
very healthy, and that there isn’t any problem staying healthy. One simply
has to do the research on what extra vitamins one might need if one isn’t
getting them from their food, but that is not impossible to do either, that
it is completely possible to get everything one needs from ones food in
terms of nutrition even with any meat or dairy whatsoever.
It might take a little more work, but that’s just how it goes. She
doesn’t do it for health reasons, she’s vegan due to not enjoying the idea
of eating other animals. That’s her trip and she doesn’t lay it on others.
But then, V is a really cool person.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 1:14 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] vegans
Just wanted to comment on the vegan thing, does anyone know of any women
that have been a vegan for more than 7 years and is not eating white meats?
(fish, chicken..)
Just curious, I have yet to meet one.
If there are, how do they keep healthy? Would be good to post to others
considering going vegan, cos I know it’s damn hard to stay healthy…so if you
are out there!!!
Kirk
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 8:22:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
NOOOOOOOO Donna!! He’ll have yee locked up in a fascist neo nazi yello
pinko redo hippy commune/jail in a second!!!!
(Please note, I’m just kidding here……)
(Now back to being a defensive junkie spouting bullshit, cos that’s all I
know how tah do!!! ;o)……I’m kidding, again!! Or am I……..????)
—–Original Message—–
From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, 31 January 2005 12:00 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Hey Donna, I’m not a twat! Really! You live over near Brighton somewhere?
Well, I get over there now and again. Let’s hang out a bit next time. Really
I’m not a twat and I don’t own a thesaurus! Check me out. love Nick
___________________________________________________________
Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/
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[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
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—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: (OT) Re:ibo/cold turkey
Date: January 30, 2005 at 4:57:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Donna,
You wrote,
meth several times but just abused it<
I was lucky with methadone, as it did exactly what I wanted it to-gave me a break from the streets, enabled me to not be sick and to have pain relief (although that was not my intention when I began using it, not figuring out how effective it was for pain relief until I was getting off it), and to begin my writing and publishing work, not to mention begin and maintain a long term relationship which I’m now 8 years and 3 months into with no end in sight (KNOCK LOUDLY ON WOOD PLEASE). But when I decided I’d had enough, I got off of the stuff. I am fully supportive of methadone as yet one more tool to assist addicts to have somewhat of a semblence of life without stress and pain and bother. In my ideal world methadone wouldn’t be needed because people would be allowed to use heroin/opium/opiates, and more, without having to worry about getting off or else. But it’s not my ideal world, so until it is I am supportive of anything that reduces the harms that can and do accrue from some drug ABuse.
and the last time was the subutex, which worked but had so many emotioal problems i went back to using.<
I’ve not had to go this route (again KNOCK LOUDLY ON WOOD PLEASE), thanks to the powers that be.
I came to this list in desparation to get off heroin I have tried cold turkey 3 times,<
It’s hard. Very, very hard. Cold turkey especially is tough. Getting off heroin is one of the very hardest things I’ve ever done (with the exception of tobacco). But I’m not off opiates personally, just not doing heroin. I wish you the very best in your endevours and travails, and hope you find a way to get yourself to a better, more peaceful place without too much turmoil and pain.
As it’s a sunny but extremely cold Sunday afternoon, perhaps some of you have a few minutes with nothing to do, so here’s a story about kicking cold turkey (a fairly long one actually), a chapter from my book Something in the Way, still unpublished but going through a major rewrite in hopes it does eventually get published by someone somewhere.
So please do enjoy. (My apologies if I’ve already posted this here before, but it’s not online with the other stories I have up at DrugWar.com from the book, and I can’t remember if I ever did send it to this list. If I did, again, please excuse my repeat posting- if not, enjoy the desperate misadventure.)
—–
Chapter 6-
The Return
I am not feeling well. As a matter of fact, having been in the air for just over nine hours now, it’s been more than twelve since I did my last shot, so I’m getting incredibly sick. I’m still able to operate and appear outwardly normal, but I can tell already that this time the withdrawals are going to be unlike any I’ve gone through yet in my career as a strung-out junky and hard core drug abuser.
I’d finished the last of my dope on the tube out to Heathrow airport in London, confident that I’d be able to handle the sickness I knew would be arriving sooner than later. When making my decision to return to the US to be with my girlfiend, I’d promised her I’d forgo the drugs, the shooting and smoking of hard narcotics. My journey was going to end I was not sure where yet, because the night before on the phone, my girlfiend had mentioned going back to school and having to find a place on campus to live, miles away from NYC itself. Not the easiest place to score those drugs I prefer, she’s made sure to tell me, so I’ve been figuring this will only make it easier for me to kick. I’d made to sure to get ahold of at least a score of Valium 10s, which I’m hoping will help soothe the pains of miseries of dope sickness, and perhaps ease the worst of the withdrawals.
Now the plane has landed in Newark, New Jersey, back in my own country after a two year hiatus. I get off the plane and collect my bags. In my shoulder bag, I’m carrying a cassette tape inside of which I’ve filled with hashish, good, black soft hash. I’d unscrewed the two halves of the cassette, placed the hash inside, then screwing it shut, gluing a piece of the cassette tape across the bottom of the cassette to make it appear to be a whole, complete tape. I’ve used this method for carrying hashish across many borders over the years, and this time is yet another successful smuggling attempt. I’m glad too, as I’m going to need the hash in addition to the Valiums, to medicate myself.
As I pick up my bags, I see a cop come around the corner leading a drug dog, a small beagle, which completely ignores me and my bag. At the Customs desk itself, I breeze right through into the land of my birth, receiving nothing but friendly greetings and welcomes from the Customs officials. This is a first for me, more used to getting at least a once over search if not the complete “strip naked while we throw out all your luggage onto the counter” type searches.
I pass into the main hall of the airport, searching everywhere for my girlfiend, eventually spotting her braids bobbing along at most people’s waist level. At four feet, eleven inches tall, she is a tiny but fiery woman, with long brown curly hair she wears in dread-like braids. We hug and kiss hello, but something is off. I’m not sure what it is, but there’s a feeling, an energy or vibe coming off her that has me feeling nervous. Rapidly descending into the blackness and depression of full-on dope withdrawals, I decide this is what I’m feeling and this alone, so try to put it out of my mind.
Taking the smaller of my two bags, she leads me through the crowded airport to catch a bus into the city. I take a deep breath.
“Holy shit, it’s cold!” Beginning of February, the North East US is experiencing the coldest Winter in something like 90 years, and I’ve landed right smack dab in the middle of it, without any much needed heroin. I dig another sweater out of a bag.
We take the bus to Grand Central Station in the middle of Manhattan. I’m beginning to have trouble even moving, the withdrawals leaving me feeling drained, weak, and particularly susceptible to the cold. I get shivers and chills if dope sick even in front of a fireplace, so now I’m feeling the cold down to my bones, and I’m growing ever more miserable. My girlfiend leads me into a diner next door to the station.
“Wait here, I’m going to make a phone call, check the schedule and buy us tickets,” she says, then runs off, leaving me there with just enough cash for a cup of coffee, which I don’t really want. I wait there for nearly an hour, a foreshadowing of things to come. I get worried eventually, having heard so many stories about how dangerous and violent NYC is, about all the freaks and madmen who make the city their home, who’d all love to get their hands on such a petite beauty as my girlfiend. She finally makes a reappearance.
“I got our tickets, but before we get on the train to White Plains, we gotta talk,” she tells me.
“Train tickets? You mean we gotta take another train?”
“And a bus,” she tells me. “Are you listening to me? This is important. I need to say something to you.”
“Oh great, fucking perfect, here it comes, whatever it is,” I think to myself, trying to brace for whatever bad news is coming.
“I have gone ahead and reenrolled in school, so I won’t be going with you to San Francisco,” she says, very business like and cold. “I want you to go on without me. I need to concentrate on my studies and just can’t handle you being around to distract me.” She looks away for a moment, then continues. “I almost did a ‘runner’ on you just now, when I went to get the tickets, but decided I do still want to spend some time with you, at least a week or so, before you take off.”
I sit there starting at her without comment for a good few minutes. I do not want to risk opening my mouth and letting her have it right there in the diner. I feel like I might explode and want to keep control, give myself a little time to think and catch my breath before responding. She’d mentioned the reenrolling thing on the phone, but that I should still come back to the US and NY, that she missed me and couldn’t wait to see me. Now, a little less than 24 hours later, me sick and only wanting to lie down and sleep, or better yet get straight, this is not the best time or place to tell me these details. I feel like she could have said something before I boarded a flight and left my entire life for the previous year behind. At least in London I’d been making decent money, had a fantastic heroin connection, and a roof over my head. Now I have nothing and am utterly dependent on this woman for now as I have nothing and have nowhere to get out of the cold but with her.
Suddenly it seems as though she take note for the first time that I am not feeling so well, and jumps to her feet.
“Come on, let’s go catch the train. We’ve got a ways to go yet before we reach the campus.” She snatches up the little bag again and leads the way to the train which will take us to White Plains, where we will catch yet another bus for another 45 minutes ride to Purchase. I’m having trouble focusing on anything, much less sitting upright and being civil. I surprise myself by resisting mentioning my desire in the diner, my absolute need to cop a bag while we were still in the city, and once again, as with my decision not to ask Paul before leaving London, I soon regret my decision to skip the attempt at getting more dope in me. I’ve completely uprooted myself from familiar surroundings, flung myself into a massive change, determined to make it as difficult as possible for myself it seems.
Outside the train, signs of how cold it is are everywhere. Huge chunks of ice float in the Hudson river, just visible in the moonlight as the train thunders over a bridge, and snow is piled in towering drifts in all directions. It was cold in London, but nothing like this. This has to be the coldest I’ve ever been in my entire short life. I’m sitting inside a warm train, bundled into almost every bit of extra clothing I can pull out of my bags, but each time the doors open at a stop, an Arctic blast of freezing cold air hits me in my seat. Gazing out the window, all I can make out is white, broken occasionally by glittering, pointy ice sickles hanging from every tree, reflecting the lights from the train in prismatic, chaotic colors as the train speeds past.
Pulling into White Plains forty minutes later, I’m seriously ailing. I’m not getting sick anymore, I am sick. My girlfiend leads the way to the bus stop, to undertake the forty-five minute bus ride out to SUNY Purchase campus. I’m huddled into myself, trying to no avail to get warm. I’m freezing inside my bones, and can’t ever remember not being cold. At the same time I’m freezing, I’m sweating profusely, which is freezing to my skin underneath my layered clothing, further torturing me. The bus finally arrives and I climb aboard, thankful to finally be out of the wind.
Shaking hard but doing a fair job of hiding it in the dark of the bus, I shiver under my large wool military coat. I’ve already eaten four of the 12 or so Valium I have, the ones that are supposed to help me get through the worst of the withdrawals. At the rate I’m going through them, I’m not going to have any left by the time I reach the worst of it, if I’m not already there, which I sadly, and correctly it later turns out, suspect is the case. The bus ride feeling twice as long as it really is, we eventually reach the campus. I can’t see much except trees, and a whole lot of snow when we disembark, but my girlfiend leads the way into the dark and I follow meekly behind. Slipping and sliding along the ice-coated walkway, I can barely keep my feet I’m shaking so hard on the icy surface. I just keeping repeating, mantra-like, “I can make it, I can make it,” to myself as we creep along.
The pathway winds out of the trees into a complex of apartment buildings. My girlfiend turns right at the third building and we climb the stairs up to the second floor, where she knocks on one of the two upper floor apartments’ doors, then enters with me close behind, anxious to get in out of the cold.
While on the bus, she had explained to me that she has yet to find campus housing, as she’d enrolled after the semester had already begun, almost two weeks late. She’d had to ask a couple of old acquaintances from her first couple of years at Purchase if she and I may crash for a few days, until we find more permanent housing. The longest resident of the apartment, a big guy named Bob, studying criminal justice and aspiring to be a cop, gave his ok until something else comes up. Not having met me when he made this decision, it’s obvious he’s having immediate second thoughts when laying eyes upon me.
I’m emmatiatedly thin, my face gaunt and drawn from my hard living and my withdrawals. I’ve been living less than a step off the streets, my clothes are a uniform color of gray, and I no doubt stand out in this brightly lit, student-filled apartment. There’re a couple of young guys sitting at a table on the far side of the small room, and another couple of guys sprawled on the sofa watching tv. Everyone there except me is clean, fresh faced and healthy. I’m introduced to everyone and miss most of the names, then we sit next to the front door on the end of the sofa, so again, as on the train I’m hit with a blast of freezing Winter air each time the door to the apartment next to me opens and some student comes in or out. Now I’m not wearing my coat though, making it even worse.
By now I am utterly miserable, yet unable to give in and drop to the floor in a heap of quivering shaking flesh. I must grin and bear it for now, though I am sure my misery is blatantly obvious to everyone present. I make an attempt to hang out to relax, to ignore the nausea and shakes. The two guys sitting next to me make banal small talk that I’m totally uninterested in hearing. Bored and sick out of my mind, I pull out the hash-filled cassette and ask Bob if he’s got a screwdriver.
I figure there’s no better way to break the ice with college students than by breaking out and smoking hashish with them. All are appreciative and impressed by the taste of, and high from, the hash. After a couple of joints, rolled the European way, mixing hash with tobacco, everyone relaxes, except me. Even Bob begins to thaw a bit towards me, but I can see in his eyes and demeanor he still has reservations about me.
It’s not much longer before I cannot take anymore socializing. “I’ve got to lay down Bob. Where are we sleeping, please?”
“Hey, no problem,” Bob says as he climbs to his feet. “Help me pull this.” He takes hold of one end of the sofa, chasing those sitting there off for a moment, and he and I pull it away from the wall a few feet. He grabs a mattress leaning against the wall and drops it to the floor behind the sofa, right there in the living room where everyone is still making no signs to leave. “I hope you don’t mind the lights on,” says Bob with an evil little grin.
He has no idea that this is still luxury living to me.
Unfortunately, there is steady traffic in and out of the apartment for hours, which keeps the Arctic air on me. I’m so sick now that each move I make makes me want to throw up. My skin is alternately on fire and freezing cold, and I can’t stop sweating, soaking the sheet beneath me. The Valiums I’ve so far taken aren’t helping me sleep at all. I can hear snatches of conversations as I drift in and out of lucidity, both from the students and from Oliver Stone’s film, “The Doors,” now playing on the tv. I distinctly hear Jim Morrison tell Pamela to get out and to not forget her heroin. “I won’t” I mumble in my delirium, right there in the film with the characters and their drugs.
I lie there for I don’t know how many hours, drifting in my state of hell. Then I’m jerked to full awareness by my girlfiend shaking me.
“Come on, get up, we gotta get out of here,” she says. “Bob needs the apartment, ’cause a bunch of people are coming over to study and he can’t have someone tossing and turning and mumbling the whole time behind his sofa. It’s distracting.”
So the room’s been privy to my suffering. I don’t care. I’m feeling like shit, and don’t care less what Bob nor his friends think of me now. But I’ve no choice in the matter, I have to go with her out of the apartment. Before we leave, I have to race to the toilet because my bowels are loose and I have the runs, one of the worst parts of kicking heroin for me.
My girlfiend leads the way through the night, across campus over an unending sheet of ice and snow. I just want to lie down, right here in the snow and go nowhere, but I manage to keep to my feet, trudging grudgingly along behind her. It’s snowing hard, making the going a total Eskimo Hell even more slippery than it was earlier, but we eventually arrive at a garage-like building, climbing up a narrow metal staircase and entering through what looks like the back door.
We’re now in the cafeteria building, which at night houses the student bar, where my girlfiend introduces me to the red haired, heavily tattooed bartender, Mike. I proceed to ask Mike for a pitcher, for myself. I take it to a table where I sit by myself the rest of the long evening, popping one Valium after another until they are all gone, drinking them down with pitcher after pitcher, finishing off four of them almost entirely by myself in the three hours we are there at the bar. I’m trying desperately to escape the withdrawals, but it’s no good. I cannot get away from myself, so now I’m blind drunk and still completely sick too. We finally leave, thinking it must be late enough that the study session has ended.
Outside on the ice again I fall repeatedly, my girlfiend bitching and snapping at me the entire way. I haven’t stopping thinking all night what an incredibly stupid idea this was, to come back here to the US. My girlfiend is acting like a total stranger, completely different from the girl I’d known in London. There she’d been a friendly, compassionate young woman, not this evil troll she’s been since my return. She knows what I’m going through right now, that I’m kicking a very serious, over-a-gram-a-day-of-good-heroin habit, because she’d been with me the previous six months and gone right through it with me, though not doing nearly the amounts I’ve been doing. She hadn’t done enough for long enough to catch more than a mild chippy, but she’s lived close enough to not only me but many other addicts as well, close enough to know what withdrawals are and how bad they can be. She’s even seen me go through it before in London, though I had a bottle of methadone there to help me get through the bad parts. Now she’s acting like she had no idea that was part of the bargain, that by my coming here I was definitely putting myself knowingly into a situation where I was without question having to go through kicking a heavy dope habit and it was to be with her I was doing it.
Back at Bob’s I drop to the mattress, grateful for the respite from the troll. Sleep will be a blessed relief. With all the Valiums and the beer, I expect to fall asleep no matter how sick I am. For normal people this would be the case, but I’m far from normal when it comes to drugs and tolerances to those drugs. All I seem to have accomplished with all the pills and alcohol is to remove my ability to focus my eyes and to give myself the spins, on top of being in withdrawals. When I finally do pass out, it’s lightly, fitfully, and nowhere near as deep a sleep as I need.
I go in and out of dreams, strange and terrible dreams, vision of shooting up, or trying to shoot up but not finding my vein no matter how many time I stick myself, missing the vein when I finally give up and push in the plunger. In one I’ve got the money but can’t find the dealer, then I’m running from the person I robbed for the money. Then I’m dreaming I’m in London, back in the squat. In my dream I get up to relieve myself, using one of the old glass milk bottles I keep by the door for just this purpose, so I don’t have to go downstairs through the cold building to the only toilet a floor below. There’s something distinctly wrong, but peeing is such a relief I don’t think about it, I just go.
“Hey man, Yo! Get the Fuck Up!”
I bolt upright out of sleep and into a real nightmare. My body feels like it’s going haywire, my muscles jumping and twitching, on fire and hurting. To top if off I’m soaking wet with sweat, and my girlfiend is shrieking at me.
“You tried to piss in a coke bottle and peed all over the living room carpet by the front door, you ass!” She’s beside herself with anger, because Bob had come back to one of the back rooms to tell her what was happening. Apparently, I’d suddenly risen to my knees behind the sofa and, paying no attention to Bob and the other people still awake and studying in the room, had grabbed a bottle and begun to pee, all over the floor, my hands and the wall and door. Then I’d laid back down behind the sofa.
I’d thought that dream was a little too real. Now I’m embarrassed on top of everything else. So much for worrying about my reputation. I don’t know what to do, so I just stand there, until my girlfiend pushes me to the restroom and throws some clothes at me.
“Get changed, and I’ll clean up,” she tell me as she slams the door in my face. After I change, I go back out to the living room where Bob and my girlfiend are now the only ones in the room.
“I’m sorry, jetlag you know,” I try to explain, but Bob just waves me off.
“Don’t worry about it,” he grunts at me.
I lay back down on the now clean mattress, and with my legs and arms pulled up under my body to keep the muscles from kicking, I finally fall back into a restless sleep. In the morning no one says anything to me so I stay under the blankets, shivering and shaking and trying not to moan out loud, delirious but in enough control to manage remaining quiet while feeling like hell. The day slowly turns into night then back into day. As soon as it is light out, I wake my girlfiend and tell her to give me the 50 pound note I’d given her in London to bring with her to the States for me. She doesn’t want to, arguing with me for a while but I prevail, telling her I’m only going to go to White Plains and exchange it into dollars. After she leaves for the first class of the day, I ask around the apartment for directions, asking where to go in NYC to buy weed.
“I can get you excellent pot here,” Bob tells me. “Why go all the way to the city when you can get it here?” He’s giving me a funny look.
“I’ve never been to NYC before,” I tell him. “I want to do this for the adventure.” It sounds kind of lame when I say it, but do I really care what this fat cop-wannabe thinks? No, I don’t. The real reason I want to know where to buy pot is because I think the people selling pot on the streets more likely than not know where I can score some heroin. One of the benefits of prohibition is the mingling of drugs, harmless pot sold alongside hardcore powders.
“Washington Square Park is where the pot is. Go there and ask around, someone will know someone who has it. You’ll know who to ask, you’ll see.”
“Thanks,” I say as I go out the door. I catch the bus to White Plains and exchange the money, then take a train to Manhattan. At Grand Central Station I ask how to get downtown to somewhere near Washington Square, and end up exiting the subway at Astor Place. I ask for directions, then head towards the park, until I spot an older black guy, sitting in the garden of an apartment building smoking what looks exactly like a joint.
“Hey, excuse me.” I walk right up to the guy. “I’m not a cop. I am really dope sick. I just got here from London and need to buy some heroin. Where do I get it? Washington Square?” I figure if anyone knows it’s going to be this obviously homeless guy, sitting here smoking pot with a bunch of bags strewn around him.
“No way man, avoid that park like the plague,” he barks. “Those boys will rip you off in a second. Head over to Alphabet City man, Aves. C and D, and Fourth Street. Not this neighborhood. Head East,” The old man points, “into the Lower East Side.”
Thanking him I head the direction he pointed, taking Broadway to Fourth Street, then take a left towards the East Side. It’s one of the coldest Winters NYC had experienced in a hundred years. I’ve heard students at Purchase say this more than once and believe it. The sidewalks are almost completely iced over. There are snow banks along each side of Fourth St., under which I can just make out the occasional tire or bumper. I hold my coat closed with my arms folded across my chest, my eyes looking down as I slither my way East. Each block seems a mile long, the ice and continuing withdrawals sapping what little strength I have left. I force myself to go on. Reaching Ave B. I turn right, and begin spotting signs that lead me to think I must be getting close. Dilapidated buildings and shady characters began to take precedence, no more nice, well kept buildings and sidewalks here. At the Corner of Second St and Ave. B I spot two guys across the street, leaning against the wall drinking beer, one black guy and a Hispanic cat. Taking a deep breath, I cross over.
“Hey, excuse me,” I start again. “I’m not a cop, but I am really very dope sick. I just got here from London and need to cop a bag of gear. Do you know anywhere? Someone else directed me this far, but now I need a little help. I know this is forward, but I don’t know anyone so I have to ask.”
The Hispanic guy looks at me like I’m crazy then turns and walks away without a word. The black guy stays.
“How ‘about some Silver Bullet?” he asks.
“What?” I think it’s some kind of threat at first, some kind of NYC slang I’ve never heard before.
“Dope m’man, it’s a brand name. Come on. This way.”
I follow him further south along Ave. B, then Clinton, what Ave. B becomes after crossing south of Houston. Almost everyone passing on the walk is speaking Spanish. We walk another three blocks, until my guide points up a single flight of stairs to a landing where stands a young man wearing a ski mask and bulky jacket. I check out the mask, then turn back to my guide, but the guy is already walking away, not waiting for a thank you or a goodbye. I turn back to the figure at the top of the step.
“How many?” the kid asks.
“Just one,” I tell him, holding out my only $10 bill. Taking the plastic rectangle offered, I have no way of knowing if this is real or not. I have to trust that it is, that I haven’t been ripped off. Now to find a needle. I only have a few more dollars and my return ticket to Purchase. Fifty pound didn’t convert to that many dollars, just enough to get me to the city and back and to buy one $10 bag. I walk back over to Houston St., searching for anyone who might know where I can buy a rig. The first person I ask laughs at me.
“Why would you buy one when you can go around the corner to the Exchange and get one for free?” he asks. “Ave C. and 4th St.” he tells me, pointing up the street behind me. I’m feeling like I’ve already walked miles, much further than I ever would while feeling healthy, much less while as sick as I am now. There’s no alternative but to continue on, so I do, slogging through the cold and wind. I reach Ave. C and turn left, heading North again, looking for a place that looks like a needle exchange. Back in Amsterdam the Exchange I’d used was mainly a hole in a door through which I’d hand my used sets and receive new ones. In Atlanta, where I was living before heading to the Nederlands, I’d simply walk into a particular pharmacy and buy a 10-pack of 1cc Insulin syringes. I didn’t know needle exchanges even existed in the US. I eventually see a spot, a storefront from which issue a steady stream of lowlife types, so I figure, correctly as it turns out, that it must be the place.
Just inside the door to the left is a table under which sits a huge tub, into which clients drop their used rigs before claiming new ones from the volunteer behind the tub. Further down the line sit plastic baggies filled with all the accoutrements need to prepare a shot-plastic bags with cookers, cotton, alcohol and bleach-as well as literature about how to protect oneself from disease and bad drugs.
“Ever been here before?” A voice stops me as I make a move towards the table. “You gotta sign in first.” All I want to do it get my needle and go get straight, but I keep my cool. It can’t take that long. “It’ll only take a moment to register,” says the man speaking to me from behind another table to the right of entering the door.
“Let’s get it over with. I’m sick as a dog and have to get straight as soon as I can,” I tell the guy. My stomach is churning. This is often the very worst time for any heroin addict, the time between scoring and actually getting my drugs inside me, especially since I shoot most of my drugs, I rarely smoke or sniff them any more. I’m hunched over, clutching my abdomen tightly, trying to get warm and not shit my pants. The guy takes my details, prints and laminates an Exchange card that is supposed to protect me from arrest for possession of a hypodermic instrument. I ask him about the local dope, whether I need lemon juice or not to melt down my heroin.
“No, no lemon juice, but listen, be extra careful pushing the shot in, because some of the dope around here is very strong,” he tells me as he hands me my brand new needle exchange card.
“Thank God,” I think to myself. “I hope to hell the dope’s incredibly fucking strong, you moron.” I leave the Exchange, skating West, sliding along the icy sidewalk as fast as I can go, looking for a bar or restaurant, anywhere I can go to get in out of the public eye and finally get straight. I still haven’t found a good place when I reach Ave. A. There I spot a likely looking little bar called Psycho Mongo, a veritable hole in the wall. Going in I order a soda and ask where the toilet is. I have just enough cash for a drink, then go to the restroom.
Closing the door, I find the toilet is lit with a black light, something I discover later a lot of the bars do to discourage just this sort of activity. It doesn’t stop or even slow me down. I tear open the plastic packet, pulling out the wax envelope inside, which I in turn tear open as well. I’m shaking so hard I almost spill it everywhere when trying to pour out the contents into my cooker, but luckily manage ok. I look at the heroin in the bottom of the cooker, but in this light I can’t make out what color it is, or even how much there is. It sure doesn’t look like much. I’m used to doing quarter gram shots at a time, and this is definitely a lot less than that, not more than a tenth of a gram at most. I don’t care, so long as it’s real. I dab my finger at the edge of the small pile of drugs, putting it to the tip of my tongue to taste. The bitter taste tells me right away that it is real, though how cut with filler I can’t tell from just tasting. It doesn’t matter at this point. I quickly mix in the water and heat it with my lighter. One thing that makes this easier than in London is that I don’t need lemon juice, the dope melts into the water without it, just like the guy back at the Exchange explained it to me. I drop a small piece of rolled up cotton into the mixture, draw it up into my rig, then take my left arm out of my jacket and sweater sleeves. Using the now empty sweater sleeve to tie off just above my elbow, I feel for the vein in the dark, placing the tip of the needle to the place I can feel with my fingertip. A quick jab, a slight pull on the plunger to get blood into the rig, to be sure I’ve hit ok, then I shove it in as fast as I can push. Loosening the sweater quickly, to avoid blowing my vein, I sit down on the toilet and heave a sigh of relief.
I can feel it coursing through my body, the heroin unclenching and untwisting the knots in my muscles. The rush stops short of what I’d really like, but that’s to be expected. My drugs are seldom as strong as I really would like them to be. I rarely get what I want out of my drugs, just like out of the rest of my life. If I put as much energy into living as I do into my drugging, I could probably accomplish something.
I shake of these melancholy feelings, happy to finally be straight. I don’t think about later, because that’ll just depress me again. I’m not as fucked up as I’d like, but I’m no longer feeling sick, at least until tomorrow but that’s just some other time, to quote Lou Reed.
When I return to Purchase, I still feeling good. I hope my pupils aren’t too noticeably pinned. I know my eyes are a dead giveaway to anyone who knows me or about dope at all, so therefore try to avoid eye contact for the rest of the evening. I hang out making small talk with various students in the living room, until it’s just me, Bob and my girlfiend left. Bob keeps watching me with a glint in his eye, obviously wondering about something. While discussing my adventures that day in the city, I mention having seen some really far out sculptures while walking up Ave B. in Alphabet City, Bob’s face registers a thought that he doesn’t express aloud. He just nods to himself as though I’ve confirmed something to him. I’m not even really sure I see the nod it passes so fast.
Before retiring for the night, I grab the paper bag in which I’m carrying all my rigs and equipment, going into the bathroom to finish the tiny amount of dope I have left in the bag. Then I go to bed.
The next day I go back into White Plains with my girlfiend, who is mad that I went into the city and bought dope, more mad that I didn’t share any with her. I’ll never please this woman I think. I’m able to move around today without wanting to throw up the whole time, but I’m still quite ill. Still unable to get any sleep at night, I toss and turn, the kicking feeling worst when lying down. The girlfiend has taken to kicking and hitting me throughout the night, telling me to “keep the fuck still” and other loving niceties. I’m tired and cranky and would rather remained lying on the floor at least one more day on campus before venturing out on another adventure.
We aimlessly wander around downtown White Plains for a while, making a half-hearted attempt to find some dope to no avail. Giving up finally, we board the bus back to Purchase. We get in to Bob’s right away, just beating a new snow storm.
A few minutes after entering, Bob comes out of his bedroom and asks the girlfiend to come talk with him in his room, alone, right away. I sit down on the mattress behind the sofa as she walks off with Bob to the back of the apartment. Lifting my duffle bag, I notice it’s open, and I could swear I’d closed it before we left, sure of it because the paper bag containing my rigs is in there. I’m suddenly sure what Bob is talking to the girlfiend about. I don’t want to believe it, but my stomach immediately drops. I know exactly what Bob thinks of heroin and those who use it, particularly “shooters” as Bob had referred to another old acquaintance of his and my girlfiend. If this is what the problem is though, why is Bob discussing it with my girlfiend and not me?
“This is not good,” I think as I change my clothes. The minutes drag by and still no girlfiend. I am about to go knock on the door and ask what’s up when she finally appears, her face drawn and tight, red with anger.
“Come on, we’ve gotta go talk somewhere,” she barks as she grabs her own jacket and heads out the door. “Grab your fucking jacket and let’s go!”
Embarrassed now, and still not entirely sure of what’s happening, I do as she says, following her out into the snow storm currently dropping another foot of snow on the campus.
“Bob doesn’t want you staying in the apartment any more,” she tells me as we work out way through the wind. “He says that if I want to I can stay, but you have to go, now, tonight.” She’s angry, and I’m glad to see she angrier at Bob than at me. “I told him you were kicking, and had come here expressly to do so, but he doesn’t care. He says that when moving our stuff around while cleaning up the apartment today, that paper bag with you rigs fell out on the floor. So they took a look inside it, and now he wants you gone. He doesn’t care that you’re quitting and doesn’t believe it anyway. He says he saw you going into the bathroom with the bag last night. Why, if you’re quitting, did you do that, he asked me. So you have to go tonight.”
The wind is brutal, blowing the snow directly at them from all directions, making us both extremely uncomfortable and very aware of the immediate problem at hand. Where am I going to sleep tonight? And the next night, and the night after? I don’t know anyone on campus except my girlfiend, other than for those I’ve met at Bob’s. I have already garnered that reputation I’ve been so concerned about up to now.
“Let’s go to the library,” she says, grabbing my hand. She leads and I follow, lost in thought, once more trying to not panic and get angry at things I cannot control, nor change now.
This wasn’t how I’d envisioned my return to the US. I’d more imagined that I’d meet up with my girlfiend, stay wherever it was that she’d have found for us in the four days she’d had prior to my own return, and that I’d lay up in bed kicking in peace and quiet before having to tackle any of life’s other complications. But my best laid plans are often for naught. Somehow I’m now facing sleeping out in the cold and snow, only my third night back in the States. I have no money, no friends, no place to crash. “What in the hell am I doing back here?” I wonder silently. It’s difficult not to give in to major regrets. If I could turn around and go back to London I’d do it in a heartbeat. I’d tuck my tail between my legs and take off running, admitting defeat. I’ve got nowhere to run though, nowhere to go to get away from my troubles, to escape, so I have to tough it out. I feel damned.
We continue toward the library, walking into the wind the entire way, my tears of frustration mingling with those torn from my eyes by the wind. We find the library open and almost deserted. Who would bother heading out in this weather anyway? We make our way downstairs, to a long row of closet-like cubicles, where we can find a bit of privacy. My girlfiend steps into one, throws all her stuff on the floor within, then tells me to wait there for a minute. I ease myself onto the floor and cover up with my jacket. I can’t believe this is happening to me.
I’m almost asleep when she returns, carrying an armload of oversized atlases, encyclopedias, and other large books, which she stacks up in front of the cubicle window.
“I used to come sleep in here my first year at Purchase,” she tells me, “to get away from everyone, to kind of hide out and get my bearings. We should be ok here until closing time at least.”
“Great. Then what?” I wonder to myself, but don’t voice my concerns. There’s no reason to piss her off at this point. But am I supposed to live in the library? “Phantom of the Library” passes through my mind, and I giggle out loud. I picture myself lurking about the library shelves, hiding from staff and students, stealing bag lunches and such, and really start to laugh out loud. She turns to me with a “shh” but I can’t help myself and keep laughing. The ridiculousness of my situation has me in hysterics. She starts to laugh along with me, not knowing what she’s laughing about but enjoying the release of tension none the less. We sit there on the floor, laughing together until we’re almost weeping.
Once we regain control, we curl up together in the corner under the desk inside the cubicle, trying to be as quiet as possible, although that’s probably useless considering the laughter we’ve been doing the past few minutes. As I try to lie still, my muscles once again begin to kick, and I start rolling around, unable to keep still for more than a couple of seconds. This drives my girlfiend crazy, right back into her “ultra bitch” state.
“Keep the fuck still!” She orders, punching me a couple of times to let me know she means it. I loose my temper in return, telling her to “leave off and shut the fuck up.” Pissed off and hateful, we both eventually pass out.
Hours later, she shakes me awake. “Get your stuff, we gotta get out of here.” There’s no one else in the library now other than the librarian at the front desk, who gives us the eye as we exit the building. She walks us over to the computer building, where we find an open classroom. She tells me to sleep in here for the rest of the night, and tomorrow we’ll come up with something else.
“Wait a minute,” I say. “Why am I putting myself through this? This is crazy. I’m out of here tomorrow.”
“What do you mean, you’re ‘outta here’?” she asks, suddenly quiet.
“I mean, I’m out of here. We were supposed to be going to California together, remember? Well, I’m sick of this shit here. I’m going, first thing tomorrow.” I’m adamant. I don’t care if it is the middle of Winter, I can’t take this hell I’ve landed in. I’ve been told many time by many different folk that San Francisco is my Mecca, that I’d thoroughly enjoy that city and would fit right in.
“Are you nuts?” She asks. “How are you going to get there?”
“I’ll hitchhike. What do you care anyway?” I glare at her. She’s the reason I’m here having all these problems, I think to myself, conveniently forgetting it was my decision to come back to the States, that no one, not even my girlfiend, put a gun to my head and forced me to undertake this misadventure.
“It’s the middle of Winter and you’re sick,” she says. “Besides, I don’t want you to leave yet, I love you. Wait until Spring at least, when the weather is nicer. Then go.”
I can’t believe I’ve just heard this correctly. I stand there speechless for a minute or two, staring at her with my mouth ajar. Then I let my shoulders slump and shake my head.
“Get out of here,” I tell her. “I’ll see you in the morning, right?”
“Yeah, sure. Don’t do anything stupid, like leave campus without telling me, ok?”
“Sure,” I answer. I turn my back as she leaves, then lie down on the floor under yet another desk, hopefully out of view of anyone or any guards passing in the hallway outside the classroom. There’s an entire security force of guards that patrol the campus, but if any pass that night I’m totally unaware of them.
I wake early the next morning when the lights suddenly go on. Someone enters the room with a cacophony of clattering and clanking. Rolling over, I climb to my feet to confront a wide-eyed and very surprised janitor.
“Hi there and good morning,” I tell him before bending back down to grab my stuff, then head out the door.
The dope sickness still has not passed, though I am getting stronger and a wee bit better. Still, I’m miserable and depressed. There has to be some way to get some relief. My mind is focused entirely on this thought. My girlfiend has some class very early this morning, so I won’t see her for a couple more hours. I don’t know why she didn’t wake me before going to class. Even with all the anger and the hitting, she’s the only friend I have right now. We’ve been in a relationship for just over six months at this point. To my perspective, we’ve got some history to our relationship, so I’m loath to give up just like that.
I’m not stopping to wonder about it. I have come up with a plan, and I’m glad she is in class because I don’t think she’d like this one. I walk to the campus store. It’s mostly empty of students, and the clerk is busy reading a magazine when I enter. She says, “Good morning” when I enter and then ignores me, burying her face back in the glossy pages of the fashion rag she’s reading. I’m not sure if they’re going to have what I’m looking for, but sure enough, at the very back of the store, in one of the only places out of the clerk’s line of sight, there sits all the cold medicines. Without checking to be sure no one is watching, I reach out, grab a box of Nyquil Cold Medicine capsules, put it in my jacket pocket, then go to the counter and order a cup of coffee. I can afford that, even if I have to steal the cold medicine.
Nyquil has something or other in it that helps people sleep, so I figure that perhaps it’ll help me my body’s muscles settle down somewhat. I go back to the still deserted library to find a quiet spot to carry out my plan. Going downstairs, I enter the bathroom and lock myself into a stall. I take out my paper bag containing all my works and equipment, then open up the box of Nyquil. Laying everything out on the lid of the toilet, I then open the box, ripping a couple of the green gel caps inside from their wrapping. They feel so soft and fragile when I squeeze them between thumb and forefinger, but when I try to break one open, the outer shell doesn’t do anything other than bend inwards without breaking. “Great, now what?” I think to myself in frustration. I’ve got my mind set on doing this and am not about to just give up. I root around in my duffle bag for a moment until I find a razor blade. Holding one of the gel caps steady between my fingers on the toilet seat lid and proceed to try and cut it open. It seems for a moment this too won’t work, but then it gives. The blade cuts almost all the way through the gel cap, causing me to almost loose the contents all over the lid of the toilet, but I save it. Picking up both halves, I pour the contents into my cooker, the repeat the process with a couple more gel caps. I then add about ten mils of water to the goo in my cooker. Then I heat it, stirring with the back of my rig, heating and reheating and adding teeny amounts of water, trying to dilute the gook in the cooker. I finally decide it’s as ready as it’s ever going to be, then drop a small piece of cotton into the mix. Taking a set, I draw the pink, gooey muck up into my rig. It takes a long time, and I look at the end results a bit dubiously. It resembles nothing so much as hair gel now, and I hesitate.
“What the hell, it’s already in my set.” I think to myself, then tie off. I find the vein quickly and boot it in. After untying and sitting back, my ears begin to ring a bit and my chest has a localized ache right about where I figure my heart must be, dead center of my chest. I don’t feel much of anything beyond this slight discomfort. This isn’t working as I’d hoped, so I forego a second try. I eat two of the gel caps instead of banging them, thinking that since I have them I may as well, that perhaps they’ll work better orally as they’re meant to be taken. I start to get jittery, then realize way too late that the Nyquil has pseudoephedrine in it, which is only increasing the sensations of kicking instead of muting them. Shit, yet another mistake on my part.
I walk out of the library into a crisp, bright Winter morning and sit on a bench in the cold, holding my head in my gloved hands, hoping the cold air will nullify my discomfort but it’s no good. I spend the morning in and out of the restroom throwing up, generally miserable and hating myself and my life.
That evening the girlfiend introduces me to some more friends of hers, room-mates of Mike the bartender I’d met the first night here. They have a bed in their living room and are ok with my sleeping there, so long as I promise to never, ever shoot up in their apartment. I readily agree. I’m sick to death of being cold and look forward to lying down in peaceful circumstances.
It takes another week for me to actually get a real night’s sleep, but the withdrawals do finally end. There are times when I suspect they won’t ever pass, but as with all bad times they do pass. I land a couple of jobs waiting tables in White Plains Mall for the rest of the semester, neither of which allow me to wear my facial jewelry and which both require ties, so I hate them both but they earn me some much needed cash. I spend the semester working and squatting on rent-free on the Purchase campus. I eventually meet a few other dopers on campus, who hook me up with the occasional ride into the city to score heroin, so I’m not by any stretch of the imagination clean, but I’m not strung out and it makes quite a bit of difference. But it doesn’t last long. When the semester eventually ends, we head into the city, she to an apartment and I to live on the streets of another big city, adrift again.
—–
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine]
Hi preston
Yes there are a few palm trees along the seafront in brighton, I came to this list in desparation to get off heroin I have tried cold turkey 3 times, meth several times but just abused it and the last time was the subutex, which worked but had so many emotioal problems i went back to using.
Love donna
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 3:13:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Donna,
It’s totally ok. The idea of not taking drugs can be very scarey for some people and your friend is bound to feel threatened if you are talking about getting off. It’s natural. About not being friends with her, I figure in this kind of situation best thing is to get really clear about what YOU need personally and make sure you’re not too worried about where she is. You come first.
Personally, I would say that it’s ok to self-administer ibogaine if you really can’t get anyone experienced to do a session with you. You do need to have blood and heart tests done first to make sure your body is strong enough. This is very important. If they are ok then you can try to just detox with ibogaine straight from being on heroin. You have to leave 12 hours or so from your last dose, longer if you’re using methadone. It’s also very important that you have someone with you, someone who cares about you, who knows how to get help if there’s an emergency, and who is prepared to stay with you in the room throughout the whole treatment which may be up to 2 days, sometimes even more. A test dose is also a good idea. There are a load of protocols – descriptions of how to do it – on my site at www.ibogaine.co.uk/treatment.htm under “Ibogaine Treatment Protocols.” There are about 6 of them so you can take your pick. Some are written a little more for people with medical experience. There’s one I wrote there which I tried to make simple and clear so you can check that out if you like.
It’s also a good idea, imo, to try and get yourself into rehab asap after coming down off ibogaine. If you can book a place before this is best. However, this is my just opinion and for a lot of other people that run sessions it’s not their way. So that bit’s really up to you.
OK, that’s what I can tell you for now. Let me know if you need more.
Lots of love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com]
Sent: 30 January 2005 19:41
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Hi Nick
Me again I just wanted to say sorry again, I could really do with some advice from you or any one else on the list, I have a choice self administer ibogaine which someone who is really experienced has told me its not out of the question and really comes down to the individual ,(would you agree with that?) or do the subutex and then the ibogaine which another person who is really experienced in ibo treatment has said this is probably the best solution to my problem. I really dont know what to do, Nick I feel awful and I can not appologise enough this so called mate of mine does not want me to get clean because she does not want to, and after this I am really wondering why I am mates at all.
love donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 3:08:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ekki
Thanks for that do you think I should use the root bark or the hcl (is that what its called) and i know i should taper down before hand and drink no coffee and lots of water and dont have any gear 20 hours before I take it. But do i just take it????? any advice i would really appreciate
love donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Date: January 30, 2005 at 3:04:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 30/01/2005 19:51:42 GMT Standard Time, rwd3@cox.net writes:
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat?
Interested in what you guys think????????????????
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 3:01:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi preston
Yes there are a few palm trees along the seafront in brighton, I came to this list in desparation to get off heroin I have tried cold turkey 3 times, meth several times but just abused it and the last time was the subutex, which worked but had so many emotioal problems i went back to using.
Love donna
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:59:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston !
I am going a bit out of the subject now, but do you believe for one moment
that our beautiful democraties are looking seriously in getting rid of drugz?<
LOL,
Nope, not at all Francis.
I often write that the entire War on Some Drugs and Users is not a failure whatsoever, not to those in the business of waging said war on some drugs and users. For those in the business of forcing others to bend to their will, this war on some drugs and users is a raging success. It’s enabled the powermongers and greedheads and self-righteous maniacs to gain power and prestige above and beyond any semblence of sanity. It’s enabled them to make boo-coo money and pit some segments of society against others, and enabled some to become ultra-descriminatory against other people and never even feel like there’s anything wrong with their prejudice and descrimination.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Hi Preston !
I am going a bit out of the subject now, but do you believe for one moment
that our beautiful democraties are looking seriously in getting rid of drugz
?
Look at the numbers :
The Sager-Socolar study claims pharmaceutical industry profits would
increase by $139 billion, or 38 percent, between 2006 and 2013.
Not bad 🙂
ADDICTED TO PROFIT : CAPITALISM AND DRUG
http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj77/farrell.htm
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Randy wrote >Have you ever met Preston? I have,
and maybe I’m just too sensitive, but I swear I could see the pain in his
face
when he had to move around. Does he or anyone else with as many pain
issues
as he has not have the right to try and make his life easier to deal
with?<
Thanks very much for pointing this out Randy.
I was again finding myself thinking about this whole thread this morning,
and Nick’s position. I’m very sick of reading Nick accusing me of making
excuses to be a junkie. For crying out loud, I think my wanting to be as
pain free as possible, considering I can barely freakin walk, or put my
right foot down on the ground, or sit at my desk and type, or feel the
skin
in much of my right leg and foot and beyond that numbness there’s just
excruciating pain, is very understandable, and something I don’t have to
make excuses for- nor do I have to or want to justify it, most
particularly
to someone like Nick.
I thank the powers that be for something like ibogaine, which might
very
well allow me to use opiates in much smaller amounts than might have been
necessary otherwise, that will allow me to keep my tolerance in check as I
continue to use opiates for my foreseeable future, maybe, if I can find a
steady supply over the next however many years I have left on the planet.
I’d personally be more than shocked if someone told me they’d only
sell
ibogaine to me if I was going to be using it only to get completely off
drugs, or with any stipulations whatsoever, and would be really upset with
someone is they refused to sell it to me or to anyone with this sort of
stipulation in mind.
And I keep coming back to the whole thing about ibogaine itself being
highly illegal and controversial in and of itself. I wonder what the
prohibitionist minded folk would think about your attitutde Nick, that
ibogaine is an ok drug to use but only to get others off drugs (am I ready
your position correctly here?)- they’d laugh in your face. It’s tough
enough
getting prohibition-deluded folk to accept methadone clinics (not my
preference, but in today’s horrific age and attitude a very necessary
avenue
to those not wanting to continue their lives running the streets dodging
cops but are not ready to stop “using” some sort of opiate.)
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
> Dr. Tom, I read your post the other day and didn’t have time to give it
> the
> thought that it deserves, I have time now. First off, I’m not a > provider
> but I
> know a few and I’d like to say something here. LOL I have to see that 4
> inch
> group offhand at 50 yards. I might be able to get 4 inch groups with a
> Ruger Mk
> II but with 2 hands and a rest. ‘Nuff’ jokin’, this is serious. This
issue
> needs to be addressed. When I had my treatment everyone, and I mean
> everyone
> wanted to know about my aftercare and plans for the future to the point
> that it
> irratated me. Turns out that they were right about therapy by the way.
> Nobody
> that I know of will treat anyone just to make it easier to get high.
This
> has
> probably been hashed out allready, I haven’t had time to read everthing
on
> the
> list for days now, but I have to say this. Have you ever met Preston? I
> have,
> and maybe I’m just too sensitive, but I swear I could see the pain in
his
> face
> when he had to move around. Does he or anyone else with as many pain
> issues
> as he has not have the right to try and make his life easier to deal
with?
> That’s not a decision I would make carte blanch (where the hell is the
> spell
> checker on this thing?) about anyone. Besides if I had my way Ibogaine
> would be
> legal and this would be a mute point. If I was a provider I would have
to
> take
> all things into consideration on an individual basis. To me, Ibogaine > is
> about
> the choices it gives you and the best route out of addiction that I
> personaly
> know of. I’ve been addicted off and on since the 70’s to oppiates. This
is
> the
> first time I have felt good about being clean since I shot Morphine > when
I
> was
> 15 years old. I didn’t really see how it could work for me but I tried
> anyway. It worked. How do we know who it will work for and who it > won’t?
> There is a
> screening process and I’d have to say that to the man everyone treated
> here of
> late in the NYC area truly wanted to get clean. I hope Preston doesn’t
> mind
> me saying this but I would imagine if he could have been clean AND free
of
> pain
> he probably would have loved it. That didn’t happen for him and I wish
it
> had. Ibogaine is medicine and should be treated that way. Oppiates are
> medicine
> too, just look at all those ‘scripts that get written for them. Dr.’s
give
> out
> an addictive substance all day long and the government won’t let people
> who
> want out of addiction have the single most effective way of dealing > with
> that
> addiction legaly obtain Ibogaine. That almost seems evil to me. There
> should be
> Ibogaine information in every Dr.’s office and Methadone clinic in the
US.
> I’m
> covering my end on that, how ’bout you? I’ve said it before and I’ll > say
> it
> again, I won’t shut up until every addict that I know of at least knows
> that
> there is another way out. I pay close attention to everything you say
and
> I’m
> glad that you brought this up. When I get back to the Catskills I’m
gonna’
> work
> on my one handed shot.hehehehe Randy
>
>
>
>
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:57:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hello donna
i think self-administration is better than subutex.
why wait any longer?
you still can subutex if it doesn´t work.
also give some ibo to your so-called mate.
thats just my humble opinion, i´m no expert
love ekki
Am 30.01.2005 um 20:40 schrieb AbbotAngel@aol.com:
Hi Nick
Me again I just wanted to say sorry again, I could really do with some advice from you or any one else on the list, I have a choice self administer ibogaine which someone who is really experienced has told me its not out of the question and really comes down to the individual ,(would you agree with that?) or do the subutex and then the ibogaine which another person who is really experienced in ibo treatment has said this is probably the best solution to my problem. I really dont know what to do, Nick I feel awful and I can not appologise enough this so called mate of mine does not want me to get clean because she does not want to, and after this I am really wondering why I am mates at all.
love donna
From: “Ron Davis” <rwd3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction(OT)
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:50:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
this is off topic but may be relevant to some of the recent exchanges: it has nothing to do w/ ibo
the tools to segregate junkies from the rest of society are being perfected in the criminal justice system. many states have enacted quasi criminal sanctions to sexual predators so that when they finish serving their sentence, they are evaluated by a group of shrinks who have trouble getting a practice started elsewhere who in turn determine whether the offender is likely to offend again or fit to return to society. if not fit, the offender gets an extended stay in a “special” hospital for an indefinite period of time. once or if released, the offender then must account for every move he or she makes, many having to wear gps monitors. bootstrap that with the anti terrorist laws and tools for law enforcement and there is an excellent blueprint for expanding the classes to fit into this model. i don’t condone sexual predators or pedophiles but i have seen many a young adult get caught in this web for sexual conduct that was not even frowned upon a few decades ago.( e.g. 20 yr. old male having sex w/ 17 yr. old unmarried female w/o parental consent.). these offenders are marked, registered, and tracked relentlessly for the rest of their lives. many feel as though druggies are bad news, and some are, that undermine our culture and harm others. easy to keep an eye on them with this method, so everyone feels safe. we all know that users lack compassion for his neighbor and would do anything for his/her next fix. it would be nice to eliminate this threat from our communities. food for thought on an idle sunday. no personal opinion expressed.ron—– Original Message —– From: “tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 2:48 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Hi Team Mindvox:
I’ve enjoyed the concepts lately squeezed from Preston and Nick’s snarly
differences over libertarian defenses of junkie lifestyle choices. Both are
great writers and probably lovely people. Do the providers have input on Ibo
as treatment for addiction to help return users to “health”, versus Ibo as
cool tool to help user down regulate freely chosen opiates as pain meds? I
can see Preston’s point about “nobody gonna mess with my choice to use
because I’m free” (sorry for abbreviated words in mouth, here), and I can
see Nick’s provocative fascist wake-up call to pull the covers off all the
self medicated sleepy minions of Morphia. That side sounds pretty wicked and
unpleasant, images of cops and home invasions roll out over network TV all
the time. The free will junkie lifestyle isn’t exactly a picnic however.
The issue of addiction versus free will gets right to the central vein
(sorry, just had to..) of Ibogaine use. I like the practice of providing
this tool to people who want out of their addiction, and it seems unique and
powerful in it’s value for that. Do you providers take on clients who are
not really looking for a way out of addiction? Maybe the mom or girlfriend
are ragging on people but, naw, they really just like that dope..”
Speaking only for myself, I can’t see why it would be worth my time and
energy to help the junkie have a better commercial relationship to his
chosen pursuits. Yes, I bet Ibo would help a lot if used for that, but it
would feel like such a wasted tool for liberation…OK, help the opiate feel
better for a while, yawn, whatever…
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat? Or is free will use of great pain killers and ways to get high some
inherent right my neighborhood and I need to fight to protect? As long as
people aren’t in my face they should do what they want to pursue and even
catch every happiness they can. No doubt. The Ibo list of PC thought from
Francis was precious. Too true.
Out here west of NYC, where gun control is a 4 inch group at 50 yards with
your one-handed pistol shot, the idea of a junkie’s rights to use gets a
little abstract. My libertarian beliefs are ok, but when the drug cartel
reps show up at your daughter’s high school prom, some of us get nervous and
tend to reach for something meaner than a good fence purchase. Dirty Harry
sold a lot of movies with the retribution schtick.
As for all the civil liberty issues brought out in the War on Drugs info,
there sure is a lot of sudden surprise and focus on the”dirty laundry” side
of the drug user “lifestyle”. Dirt sells, for sure, but isn’t it all
getting hard to be shocked and amazed for you grownups that addiction sucks?
Over 500 years since the Spanish Christian monarchs sent Columbus off to
eliminate everyone non Spanish and Christian to generate revenue, and the
war has been pretty world wide and constant for your mind, spirit, and soul
ever since. Addiction has been a favorite controller tool for a long time.
I don’t know the experience of opiate addiction, thankfully, and no, I’ll
pass on those mashed potatoes too. For the proud, freethinker junkies and
tweekers among us, does the free will model work for addiction or is there a
treatable illness there that loved ones might want to intervene with? When
do your decisions start to forfeit your claim to civil rights? Let me know.
Never mind the character jabs at me for asking, just come from your own
knowledge. As for the social critique of unaware drug policies, this war on
the drug user is just the sneak preview for what’s coming at us in Century
21, IMHO. Get clean, wake up, or don’t. Your choice. In the bright future
there will be a lot of available parking places, methinks.
I’m gone, thanks for reading.
Dr. Tom
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:47:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ekki
How much ibo did you use, what form of ibo did you use?? any advice on self administration??
love donna
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:45:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’ve been to Brighton, to the Stainless Steel Ball, back in ’93, a big huge fetish party. Took the train down from London with a beautiful partner named Suzi I was seeing at the time (whose photo is in a few books I’ve come across since, one called Body Manipulations- a very cool book full of nifty photos of freaky types.) I had a blast.
I also remember that Brighton had a few palm trees. Am I remembering correctly? I might be misremembering the English coastal city I visited where I did see Palm Trees (obviously not native) and am still thinking Brighton, but as noted, could be wrong.
Donna, what do you mean, your partner (“so-called mate) thinks this list is putting ideas in your head about getting off heroin? Is it? How did you come to this list? I’m sorry if you’ve already explained this, but I’m curious.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Hi Nick
I am so very sorry I do not think you are a twat, I had no knowledge that email was sent my so called mate sent it who thinks this list is putting ideas in my head about coming off heroin I like everyone on the list you have all given me so much advice you are all an inspiration to me because I can not wait to be free from my addiction,, once again im so sorry and I would love to meet up if you are ever in Brighton
Love Donna
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:40:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick
Me again I just wanted to say sorry again, I could really do with some advice from you or any one else on the list, I have a choice self administer ibogaine which someone who is really experienced has told me its not out of the question and really comes down to the individual ,(would you agree with that?) or do the subutex and then the ibogaine which another person who is really experienced in ibo treatment has said this is probably the best solution to my problem. I really dont know what to do, Nick I feel awful and I can not appologise enough this so called mate of mine does not want me to get clean because she does not want to, and after this I am really wondering why I am mates at all.
love donna
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:22:35 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston !
I am going a bit out of the subject now, but do you believe for one moment
that our beautiful democraties are looking seriously in getting rid of drugz
?
Look at the numbers :
The Sager-Socolar study claims pharmaceutical industry profits would
increase by $139 billion, or 38 percent, between 2006 and 2013.
Not bad 🙂
ADDICTED TO PROFIT : CAPITALISM AND DRUG
http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj77/farrell.htm
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Randy wrote >Have you ever met Preston? I have,
and maybe I’m just too sensitive, but I swear I could see the pain in his
face
when he had to move around. Does he or anyone else with as many pain
issues
as he has not have the right to try and make his life easier to deal
with?<
Thanks very much for pointing this out Randy.
I was again finding myself thinking about this whole thread this morning,
and Nick’s position. I’m very sick of reading Nick accusing me of making
excuses to be a junkie. For crying out loud, I think my wanting to be as
pain free as possible, considering I can barely freakin walk, or put my
right foot down on the ground, or sit at my desk and type, or feel the
skin
in much of my right leg and foot and beyond that numbness there’s just
excruciating pain, is very understandable, and something I don’t have to
make excuses for- nor do I have to or want to justify it, most
particularly
to someone like Nick.
I thank the powers that be for something like ibogaine, which might
very
well allow me to use opiates in much smaller amounts than might have been
necessary otherwise, that will allow me to keep my tolerance in check as I
continue to use opiates for my foreseeable future, maybe, if I can find a
steady supply over the next however many years I have left on the planet.
I’d personally be more than shocked if someone told me they’d only
sell
ibogaine to me if I was going to be using it only to get completely off
drugs, or with any stipulations whatsoever, and would be really upset with
someone is they refused to sell it to me or to anyone with this sort of
stipulation in mind.
And I keep coming back to the whole thing about ibogaine itself being
highly illegal and controversial in and of itself. I wonder what the
prohibitionist minded folk would think about your attitutde Nick, that
ibogaine is an ok drug to use but only to get others off drugs (am I ready
your position correctly here?)- they’d laugh in your face. It’s tough
enough
getting prohibition-deluded folk to accept methadone clinics (not my
preference, but in today’s horrific age and attitude a very necessary
avenue
to those not wanting to continue their lives running the streets dodging
cops but are not ready to stop “using” some sort of opiate.)
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Dr. Tom, I read your post the other day and didn’t have time to give it
the
thought that it deserves, I have time now. First off, I’m not a provider
but I
know a few and I’d like to say something here. LOL I have to see that 4
inch
group offhand at 50 yards. I might be able to get 4 inch groups with a
Ruger Mk
II but with 2 hands and a rest. ‘Nuff’ jokin’, this is serious. This
issue
needs to be addressed. When I had my treatment everyone, and I mean
everyone
wanted to know about my aftercare and plans for the future to the point
that it
irratated me. Turns out that they were right about therapy by the way.
Nobody
that I know of will treat anyone just to make it easier to get high.
This
has
probably been hashed out allready, I haven’t had time to read everthing
on
the
list for days now, but I have to say this. Have you ever met Preston? I
have,
and maybe I’m just too sensitive, but I swear I could see the pain in
his
face
when he had to move around. Does he or anyone else with as many pain
issues
as he has not have the right to try and make his life easier to deal
with?
That’s not a decision I would make carte blanch (where the hell is the
spell
checker on this thing?) about anyone. Besides if I had my way Ibogaine
would be
legal and this would be a mute point. If I was a provider I would have
to
take
all things into consideration on an individual basis. To me, Ibogaine is
about
the choices it gives you and the best route out of addiction that I
personaly
know of. I’ve been addicted off and on since the 70’s to oppiates. This
is
the
first time I have felt good about being clean since I shot Morphine when
I
was
15 years old. I didn’t really see how it could work for me but I tried
anyway. It worked. How do we know who it will work for and who it won’t?
There is a
screening process and I’d have to say that to the man everyone treated
here of
late in the NYC area truly wanted to get clean. I hope Preston doesn’t
mind
me saying this but I would imagine if he could have been clean AND free
of
pain
he probably would have loved it. That didn’t happen for him and I wish
it
had. Ibogaine is medicine and should be treated that way. Oppiates are
medicine
too, just look at all those ‘scripts that get written for them. Dr.’s
give
out
an addictive substance all day long and the government won’t let people
who
want out of addiction have the single most effective way of dealing with
that
addiction legaly obtain Ibogaine. That almost seems evil to me. There
should be
Ibogaine information in every Dr.’s office and Methadone clinic in the
US.
I’m
covering my end on that, how ’bout you? I’ve said it before and I’ll say
it
again, I won’t shut up until every addict that I know of at least knows
that
there is another way out. I pay close attention to everything you say
and
I’m
glad that you brought this up. When I get back to the Catskills I’m
gonna’
work
on my one handed shot.hehehehe Randy
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:21:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Sara
I completly agree with you I did not send that message, I like and respect everyone on the list the advice you have given me is priceless
Love Donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:19:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick
I am so very sorry I do not think you are a twat, I had no knowledge that email was sent my so called mate sent it who thinks this list is putting ideas in my head about coming off heroin I like everyone on the list you have all given me so much advice you are all an inspiration to me because I can not wait to be free from my addiction,, once again im so sorry and I would love to meet up if you are ever in Brighton
Love Donna
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment/attn preston
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:01:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
thank you for the information and support. i have been in contact with sara and wanted to go to saras house with my friend, but she rather wanted to do it with me alone. i will get some HCl and try it out on both me and her. do you think frequent low dose therapy is better than a high dose once?
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] AA and Gurus
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:58:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Sandy !!
In the true spirit of AA and NA, I have to bring my 2 cents 🙂
You wrote:
” I’ve been trying to avoid this discussion, since it DOES seem pointless to try to change anyone’s mind.”
* : “DOES seem pointless ” It’s seem point less but is NOT. In the rooms for the last 60 years and now in more than 150 000 Club houses all over the planet, they are tryng or actualy are changing the mind of hard core alcoholics and addicts.
Quite a successful journey 🙂 If you think that all started with a couple of broke drunks
you wrote :
” I was told over and over at AA; that everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to”
* Everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to . God know best what is good for you . This statement is for people who are clean and sober.People who gave up their will for God will. This do not apply always and everywhere. Will be to simple, don’t you think ?
You follow with:
“that everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to – so if Preston and myself are still “using,” that’s perfect.
I don’t understand – but I don’t think anyone really understands any of it very well (even the “self-proclaimed gurus.”).
* you wrote that you “don’t understand “and that OK because you started with a wrong explanation and a deformation of the thought of AA. You wrote ” but I don’t think anyone really understands any of it very well ” You right, this a paradox and only people who gave up the fight agins their addiction like in Step One and surrender to a power greater then themselves can understand it. Spirituality is mysterious and don’t follow ours human rules. How the infinitely small can understant the infinitely great ?
About the ” self proclamed gurus ” All the Gurus are self proclaimed contrary to the rest of us who could be elected..Generaly they do so out of a strong personal spiritual experience. Some could proclaime too themself as leaders out of crazyness, power or greed. I guess the only way to recognize the bad apple from the good ones is trought the study of their lifes and fruits.
In my humble opinion true gurus where Bob and Bill from AA regarding addictions and this came after a very stong spiritual experience for one of them. The man who discover Ibogaine and the use of it against addiction is a guru .
From Guru : 17 century Sanscrit ” Elder, Teacher “.
Sorry, if I disapointed you. 🙁
God bless
Francis
P. S Regarding Preston, I am sorry to know that he suffers from great physical pain. Is case is different, and I want to apologize to him if I hurted is feeling in anyway.
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Hi. I’ve been trying to avoid this discussion, since it DOES seem pointless to try to change anyone’s mind. But Nick, how about all the fat people…should we force them into “rehab” too, or at least go shopping with them and cook their food and exercise them. They’re obviously draining the planet’s “good” vibes by their excess, not too mention all the animal suffering (it’s probably impossible to be fat and a vegan.) I mention fatness because two of my best friends are literally dying from morbid obesity. Watching them eat is like watching a dying junkie shoot up. It’s damn difficult to see, and I offer whatever I can for them, but I don’t support holding a gun to their head… (or forced rehab either.)
Preston, I support your position completely, but I think you’re probably right to give up the fight. Nick, you’ve always been great to me, but yeah, I agree with Howard. You were so into “the world is doomed,” and now I guess you’ve changed that stance and want to help alleviate suffering, which is great! But, just like most of us, we want everyone else to change and think we know just how they should do it. Don’t worry, I think that all the time myself, but I know it’s mistaken. One of the precepts I was told over and over at AA; that everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to – so if Preston and myself are still “using,” that’s perfect. Why that’s perfect, I don’t understand – but I don’t think anyone really understands any of it very well (even the “self-proclaimed gurus.”) Another thing that I also learned in AA is that it’s not really my business what anyone else is doing. Just concentrate on “my side of the street.” (Another damn difficult thing to do.) There’s chaos, then there’s order, then chaos again… that’s the only idea that makes any sense to me anymore…
Best to all, Sandy
>From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
>Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:07:52 -0000
>
>Hi Howard,
>
>Many thanks for the link. Personally, I do not agree with Dr Cohen’s
>viewpoint. I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
>analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
>(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard to
>the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation and
>I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
>individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary
>life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my position!
>
>with love
>
>Nick
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] US: Dr. Ecstasy
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:53:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey,
Maybe we should lock up Dr. Shulgin and his wife. Or force them to take ibogaine and if it doesn’t “work” (and that’s something else btw, mentioned in Randy’s post- ibogaine DID work for me folks- I got exactly what I wanted and needed from taking ibogaine I feel, and will do it again at some point, quite possibly more than once too) get the government to coerce them into stopping their obviously illegal and destructive drug use.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Richard Lake” <rlake@mapinc.org>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:35 PM
Subject: [DrugWar] US: Dr. Ecstasy
URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05.n170.a05.html
Newshawk: DrugNews Fast! http://drugnews.org/
Pubdate: Sun, 30 Jan 2005
Source: New York Times (NY)
Section: Magazine
Copyright: 2005 The New York Times Company
Contact: letters@nytimes.com
Website: http://www.nytimes.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/298
Author: Drake Bennett
Note: Drake Bennett is the staff writer for The Boston Globe Ideas section.
Photo: Alexander Shulgin. (Jeff Minton for The New York Times) http://www.mapinc.org/images/Shulgin.jpg
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/people/Shulgin (Dr. Shulgin)
DR. ECSTASY
Alexander Shulgin, Sasha to his friends, lives with his wife, Ann, 30 minutes inland from the San Francisco Bay on a hillside dotted with valley oak, Monterey pine and hallucinogenic cactus. At 79, he stoops a little, but he is still well over six feet tall, with a mane of white hair, a matching beard and a wardrobe that runs toward sandals, slacks and short-sleeved shirts with vaguely ethnic patterns. He lives modestly, drawing income from a small stock portfolio supplemented by his Social Security and the rent that two phone companies pay him to put cell towers on his land. In many respects he might pass for a typical Contra Costa County retiree.
It was an acquaintance of Shulgin’s named Humphry Osmond, a British psychiatrist and researcher into the effects of mescaline and LSD, who coined the word “psychedelic” in the late 1950’s for a class of drugs that significantly alter one’s perception of reality. Derived from Greek, the term translates as “mind manifesting” and is preferred by those who believe in the curative power of such chemicals. Skeptics tend to call them hallucinogens.
Shulgin is in the former camp. There’s a story he likes to tell about the past 100 years: “At the beginning of the 20th century, there were only two psychedelic compounds known to Western science: cannabis and mescaline. A little over 50 years later — with LSD, psilocybin, psilocin, TMA, several compounds based on DMT and various other isomers — the number was up to almost 20. By 2000, there were well over 200. So you see, the growth is exponential.” When I asked him whether that meant that by 2050 we’ll be up to 2,000, he smiled and said, “The way it’s building up now, we may have well over that number.”
The point is clear enough: the continuing explosion in options for chemical mind-manifestation is as natural as the passage of time. But what Shulgin’s narrative leaves out is the fact that most of this supposedly inexorable diversification took place in a lab in his backyard. For 40 years, working in plain sight of the law and publishing his results, Shulgin has been a one-man psychopharmacological research sector. (Timothy Leary called him one of the century’s most important scientists.) By Shulgin’s own count, he has created nearly 200 psychedelic compounds, among them stimulants, depressants, aphrodisiacs, “empathogens,” convulsants, drugs that alter hearing, drugs that slow one’s sense of time, drugs that speed it up, drugs that trigger violent outbursts, drugs that deaden emotion — in short, a veritable lexicon of tactile and emotional experience. And in 1976, Shulgin fished an obscure chemical called MDMA out of the depths of the chemical literature and introduced it to the wider world, where it came to be known as Ecstasy.
In the small subculture that truly believes in better living through chemistry, Shulgin’s oeuvre has made him an icon and a hero: part pioneer, part holy man, part connoisseur. As his supporters point out, his work places him in an old, and in many cultures venerable, tradition. Whether it’s West African iboga ceremonies or Navajo peyote rituals, 60’s LSD culture or the age-old cultivation of cannabis nearly everywhere on the planet it can grow, the pursuit and celebration of chemically-induced alternate realms of consciousness goes back beyond the dawn of recorded history and has proved impossible to fully suppress. Shulgin sees nothing strange about devoting his life to it. What’s strange to him is that so few others see fit to do the same thing.
Most of the scientific community considers Shulgin at best a curiosity and at worst a menace. Now, however, near the end of his career, his faith in the potential of psychedelics has at least a chance at vindication. A little more than a month ago, the Food and Drug Administration approved a Harvard Medical School study looking at whether MDMA can alleviate the fear and anxiety of terminal cancer patients. And next month will mark a year since Michael Mithoefer, a psychiatrist in Charleston, S.C., started his study of Ecstasy-assisted therapy for post-traumatic stress disorder. At the same time, with somewhat less attention, studies at the Harbor-U.C.L.A. Medical Center and the University of Arizona, Tucson, have focused on the therapeutic potential of psilocybin (the active ingredient in “magic mushrooms”). It’s far from a revolution, but it is an opening, and as both scientist and advocate, Shulgin has helped create it. If — and it’s a big “if” — the results of the studies are promising enough, it might bring something like legitimacy to the Shulgin pharmacopoeia.
“I’ve always been interested in the machinery of the mental process,” Shulgin told me not long ago. He has also, from a very young age, loved playing with chemicals. As a lonely 16-year-old Harvard scholarship student soon to drop out and join the Navy, he studied organic chemistry. His interest in pharmacology dates to 1944, when a military nurse gave him some orange juice just before his surgery for a thumb infection. Convinced that the undissolved crystals at the bottom of the glass were a sedative, Shulgin fell unconscious, only to find upon waking that the substance had been sugar. It was a revelatory, tantalizing hint of the mind’s odd strength.
When Shulgin had his first psychedelic experience in 1960, he was a young U.C. Berkeley biochemistry Ph.D. working at Dow Chemical. He had already been interested for several years in the chemistry of mescaline, the active ingredient in peyote, when one spring day a few friends offered to keep an eye on him while he tried it himself. He spent the afternoon enraptured by his surroundings. Most important, he later wrote, he realized that everything he saw and thought “had been brought about by a fraction of a gram of a white solid, but that in no way whatsoever could it be argued that these memories had been contained within the white solid. . . . I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and the spirit. We may choose not to find access to it, we may even deny its existence, but it is indeed there inside us, and there are chemicals that can catalyze its availability.”
Epiphanies don’t come much grander than that, and Shulgin’s interest in psychoactive drugs bloomed into an obsession. “There was,” he remembers thinking, “this remarkably rich and unexplored area that I had to explore.” Two years later, he was given his chance when he created Zectran, one of the world’s first biodegradable insecticides. In return, Dow gave him its customary dollar for the patent and unlimited freedom to pursue his interests.
As Shulgin turned toward making psychedelics, Dow remained true to its word. When the company asked, he patented his compounds. When it didn’t, Shulgin published his findings in places like Nature and The Journal of Organic Chemistry. Eventually, however, Dow decided that Shulgin’s work wasn’t something it wanted to endorse and asked that he not use the company address in his publications. He began to work out of a lab he had set up at home, eventually leaving Dow altogether to freelance as a consultant to research labs and hospitals.
All along he made drugs: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-ethoxyamphetamine, or MEM for short, was his Rosetta stone, a “valuable and dramatic compound” that opened the door to a whole class of drugs based on changes at the “4 position” of a molecule’s central carbon ring. A compound he dubbed Aleph-1 gave him “one of the most delicious blends of inflation, paranoia and selfishness that I have ever experienced.” Another, Ariadne, was patented and tested under the name Dimoxamine as a drug for “restoring motivation in senile geriatric patients.” Still another, DIPT, created no visual hallucinations but distorted the user’s sense of pitch.
Shulgin tested for activity by taking the chemicals himself. He would start many times below the active dose of a compound’s closest analog and work his way up on alternate days. When he found something of interest, Ann, whom he married in 1981, would try it. If he thought further study was warranted, he would invite over his “research group” of six to eight close friends — among them two psychologists and a fellow chemist — and try the drugs out on them. In case of a truly dangerous reaction, Shulgin kept an anti-convulsant on hand. He used it twice, both times on himself.
Shulgin’s pace has slowed recently — the research group hardly meets anymore. Nevertheless, Ann figures that she’s had more than 2,000 psychedelic experiences. Shulgin puts his own figure above 4,000. Asked if they had suffered any effects from their remarkable drug histories, they laughed. “You mean negative effects?” Ann said. In more than a dozen hours of conversation, her memory proved sharp. But Shulgin, while a nimble conversationalist, can have trouble with names — of people and places, never chemicals. At one point, while explaining a mnemonic device he uses to remember world geography, he paused and asked me, “Where’s that place where Ann is from?” (She was born in New Zealand.) He is, though, also nearing 80.
Once a Shulgin compound develops a reputation, it is almost invariably placed on the Drug Enforcement Agency’s list of Schedule I drugs, those deemed to have no accepted medical use and the highest potential for abuse or addiction. It is therefore rather striking that Shulgin is not only still a free man, but also still at work. His own explanation is that, quite simply, “I’m not doing anything illegal.” For more than 20 years, until a government crackdown, he had a D.E.A.-issued Schedule I research license. And many of the drugs in his lab weren’t illegal because they hadn’t existed until he created them.
Shulgin’s knack for befriending the right people hasn’t hurt. A week after I visited him, he was headed to Sonoma County for the annual “summer encampment” of the Bohemian Club, an exclusive, secretive San Francisco-based men’s club that has counted every Republican president since Herbert Hoover among its members.
For a long time, though, Shulgin’s most helpful relationship was with the D.E.A. itself. The head of the D.E.A.’s Western Laboratory, Bob Sager, was one of his closest friends. Sager officiated at the Shulgins’ wedding and, a year later, was married on Shulgin’s lawn. Through Sager, the agency came to rely on Shulgin: he would give pharmacology talks to the agents, make drug samples for the forensic teams and serve as an expert witness — though, he is quick to point out, he appeared much more frequently for the defense. He even wrote the definitive law-enforcement desk-reference work on controlled substances. In his office, Shulgin has several plaques awarded to him by the agency for his service. (Shulgin denies that this had anything to do with his being given his Schedule I license.)
Nevertheless, in the early 80’s, Shulgin began having grim fantasies of the D.E.A. throwing him in jail, ransacking his lab and destroying all of his records. At the same time, he was finding it harder to get his work published: journals were either uninterested in or leery about human psychedelic research. He decided to make as much of what he knew public as quickly as possible. He and Ann started work on a book called “PiHKAL” (short for “Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved,” after a family of compounds particularly rich in psychoactivity), self-publishing it in 1991.
It is a curious hybrid work, divided into two sections. The first, “The Love Story,” is a thinly fictionalized account of Sasha’s and Ann’s comings of age, previous marriages, meeting, courtship (to which nearly 200 pages are devoted) and many drug experiences. The second, “The Chemical Story,” is not a story at all, but capsule descriptions of 179 phenethylamines. Each entry includes step-by-step instructions for synthesis, along with recommended dosages, duration of action and “qualitative comments” like the following, for 60 milligrams of something called 3C-E: “Visuals very strong, insistent. Body discomfort remained very heavy for first hour. . . . 2nd hour on, bright colors, distinct shapes — jewel-like — with eyes closed. Suddenly it became clearly not anti-erotic. . . . Image of glass-walled apartment building in mid-desert. Exquisite sensitivity. Down by? midnight. Next morning, faint flickering lights on looking out windows.” “TiHKAL” (“Tryptamines I Have Known and Loved”), self-published six years later, follows the same model.
To date, “PiHKAL” has sold more than 41,000 copies, a figure nearly unheard-of for a self-published book. It introduced Shulgin’s work to a whole new audience and turned him into an underground celebrity. An organization called the Center for Cognitive Liberty and Ethics has an online Ask Dr. Shulgin column that receives 200 questions a month. On independent drug-information Web sites like www.erowid.com, you can find the “PiHKAL” and “TiHKAL” entries for dozens of drugs, along with many anonymously posted accounts of Shulgin-style self-dosing drug experiments, some of them harrowing in their recklessness.
With all of these fellow travelers, some very bad experiences are inevitable. In 1967, a Shulgin compound called DOM enjoyed a brief vogue in Haight-Ashbury under the name STP, at doses several times larger than those at which Shulgin had found significant psychoactive effects, and emergency rooms saw a spike in the number of people coming in thinking they would never come down. And while the number of psychedelic-related deaths is orders of magnitude smaller than the number due to alcohol, prescription drugs or even over-the-counter painkillers, they do occur regularly. In October 2000, a 20-year-old man in Norman, Okla., died from taking 2C-T-7, a drug Shulgin describes in “PiHKAL” as “good and friendly and wonderful.”
When I asked Shulgin whether he remembered the first time he heard that someone had died from one of his drugs, he said he did not: “It would have struck me as being a sad event. And yet, at the same time, how many people die from aspirin? It’s a small but real percentage.” (The American Association of Poison Control Centers, whose numbers are not comprehensive, attributed 59 deaths to aspirin in 2003; most, though, were suicides.) Asked whether he could imagine a drug so addictive that it should be banned, he said no. With his fervent libertarianism — he says the only appropriate restriction on drugs is one to prevent children from buying them — he has inoculated himself against any sense of personal guilt.
Shulgin’s special relationship with the D.E.A. ended two years after the publication of “PiHKAL.” According to Richard Meyer, spokesman for the agency’s San Francisco Field Division: “It is our opinion that those books are pretty much cookbooks on how to make illegal drugs. Agents tell me that in clandestine labs that they have raided, they have found copies of those books.” In 1993, D.E.A. agents descended on Shulgin’s farm, combed through the house and lab and carted off anything they thought might be an illicit substance. Shulgin was fined $25,000 for violations of the terms of his Schedule I license (donations from friends and admirers ended up covering the whole amount) and was asked to turn the license in.
To the extent that Shulgin is known to the wider world, it is as the godfather of Ecstasy: 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine, or MDMA, was originally patented in 1914 by Merck. The byproduct of a chemical synthesis, it was thought to have no use of its own and was promptly forgotten. But Shulgin resynthesized it in 1976 at the suggestion of a former student. (He has never found out how she heard about it.) Two years later, in a paper written with his friend and fellow chemist David Nichols, he was the first to publicly document its effect on humans: “an easily controlled altered state of consciousness with emotional and sensual overtones.”
Unlike many of its subsequent users, Shulgin did not find his MDMA experience transformative. For him the effect was like a particularly lucid alcohol buzz; he called it his “low-calorie martini.” He was intrigued, though, by the drug’s unique combination of intoxication, disinhibition and clarity. “It didn’t have the other visual and auditory imaginative things that you often get from psychedelics,” he said. “It opened up a person, both to other people and inner thoughts, but didn’t necessarily color it with pretty colors and strange noises.” He decided that it might be well suited for psychotherapy.
At the time, it was not such an unconventional idea. In the 50’s and 60’s, the use of LSD, psilocybin and mescaline in therapy was the subject of much mainstream scholarly debate. LSD was a particularly hot topic: more than a thousand papers were written on its use as an experimental treatment for alcoholism, depression and various neuroses in some 40,000 patients. One proponent was a psychotherapist and friend of Shulgin’s named Leo Zeff. When Shulgin had him try MDMA in 1977, Zeff was so impressed that he came out of retirement to proselytize for it. Ann Shulgin remembers a speaker at Zeff’s memorial service saying that Zeff had introduced the drug to “about 4,000” therapists.
In certain therapeutic circles, MDMA acquired a reputation as a wonder drug. Anecdotal accounts attested to its ability to induce in one session the sort of breakthroughs that normally took months or years of therapy. According to George Greer, a psychiatrist who in the early 80’s conducted MDMA therapy sessions with 80 patients, “Without exception, every therapist who I talked to or even heard of, every therapist who gave MDMA to a patient, was highly impressed by the results.”
But the drug was also showing up in nightclubs in Dallas and Los Angeles, and in 1986 the D.E.A. placed it in Schedule I. By the late 90’s, household surveys showed millions of teenagers and college students using it, and in 2000, U.S. Customs officials seized nearly 10 million pills. Parents and public officials worried that a whole generation was consigning itself to a life of drug-induced depression and cognitive decay.
There is, in fact, little consensus about what MDMA does to your brain over the long run. Researchers generally agree on its immediate physiological effects: especially at higher doses, it can trigger sharp increases in muscle tension, heart rate and blood pressure. Hyperthermia, or raised body temperature, is a particular worry, along with the attendant risk of heatstroke or dehydration. MDMA also, at least temporarily, exhausts the brain’s supply of serotonin (a neurochemical thought to play a role in memory and mood regulation). But as to the extent and duration of that depletion, and whether it has any measurable functional or behavioral consequences, there is fierce debate and surprisingly scarce data. Nationwide, fatality numbers are hard to come by, but a study by New York City’s deputy chief medical examiner determined that of the 19,000 deaths from all causes reported to his office between January 1997 and June 2000, 2 were due solely to Ecstasy.
In the past couple of years, MDMA’s opponents have backed off from some of their stronger claims. (In one particularly embarrassing instance, a study linking MDMA to Parkinson’s disease was revealed to have instead been based on the use of methamphetamine, which is known to be much more neurotoxic.) Emboldened, a few psychiatrists are bringing MDMA back into the news in a role closer to the one Shulgin originally imagined for it.
With the F.D.A.’s approval of the Harvard cancer-patient study on Dec. 17, all that’s still needed is a D.E.A. license for MDMA. John Halpern, the psychiatrist heading the study, anticipates that happening in the next couple of months. At the same time, he cautions against making too much of his “small pilot study”: eight subjects undergoing a course of MDMA therapy, with another four receiving a placebo. The Charleston study is similarly modest, with 20 subjects.
Still, according to Mark A.R. Kleiman, director of the Drug Policy Analysis Program at U.C.L.A., “there’s obviously been a significant shift at the regulatory agencies and the Institutional Review Boards. There are studies being approved that wouldn’t have been approved 10 years ago. And there are studies being proposed that wouldn’t have been proposed 10 years ago.”
The theoretical basis for MDMA therapy varies a bit depending on whom you talk to. Greer says that by lowering patients’ defenses, the drug allows them to face troubling, even repressed, memories. Charles Grob, the psychiatry professor running the U.C.L.A. psilocybin study (also with terminal cancer patients) and a longtime advocate of therapeutic MDMA research, focuses more on the “empathic rapport” catalyzed by MDMA. “I don’t know of any other compound that can achieve this to the degree that MDMA can,” he said.
The medical community remains dubious. For Vivian Rakoff, emeritus professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto, there is something familiar about the claims being made for psychedelics. “The notion of the revelatory moment due to some drug or maneuver that will allow you to change your life has been around for a long time,” he said. “Every few years, something comes along that claims to be what Freud called the ‘royal road to the unconscious.”‘ Steven Hyman, professor of neurobiology at Harvard Medical School and former director of the National Institute of Mental Health, put it this way: “If you asked me to place a bet, I would be skeptical. In general, one worries that insights gained under states of disinhibition or mild euphoria or different cognitive states with illusions may seem strange and distant from the vantage of our ordinary life.” Even so, both Hyman and Rakoff say that research should be allowed to proceed.
Shulgin has been credited with jump-starting today’s therapeutic research, but he prefers to play down his role. While heartened by the MDMA studies and happy to play psychedelic elder statesman, he insists that he is not a healer or a shaman but a researcher. Asked why he does what he does, he replies, “I’m curious!” He is most animated when describing the feeling that accompanies the discovery of a new compound, no matter what its properties. Sometimes he compares the moment to that of artistic creation (“The pleasure of composing a new painting or piece of music”), and sometimes it sounds more like a close encounter of the third kind (“You’re meeting something you don’t know, and it’s meeting something it doesn’t know. And so you have this exchange of properties and ideas”).
Shulgin’s lab is in the concrete-block foundation of what used to be a small cabin, set into a ridge a few dozen yards from his house along a narrow brick path. On the door is a laminated sign that reads, “This is a research facility that is known to and authorized by the Contra Costa County Sheriff’s Office, all San Francisco D.E.A. Personnel and the State and Federal E.P.A. Authorities.” Underneath are phone numbers for the relevant official at each agency. He posted it after the sheriff’s department and the D.E.A. raided the farm a second time a few years ago. (They later apologized.)
Shulgin gave me my tour late one afternoon. A weak light came in through the small, dusty windows. The smell — synthetic and organic at once, like a burning tire doused in urine — took some getting used to. Bulbous flasks were clipped into place above a counter crowded with glassware shaped like finds from the Burgess Shale. “Everything you need is right here,” Shulgin declared, pulling out drawer after clattering drawer of test tubes, beakers, plastic tubing and syringes. At the far end of the room, beside the fireplace, was a small chalkboard covered with the traces of his brainstorming — antennaed pentagons and hexagons ringed with N’s, H’s, C’s and O’s. Shulgin picked a short bit of scrap wood off the counter. He occasionally used it, he explained, to tear down the spider webs that festooned the rafters. “But the main problem is the squirrels,” he said, pointing to where he had put up sheet metal to keep them out. “It doesn’t look like the labs you see in the movies, but you get a chemist out here, and he’ll say, ‘Oh, my God, I’d love to have a lab like this.”‘
Of course, in a way, it’s exactly the sort of lab that you see in the movies — they’re just movies in which the scientists wear frock coats, turn into monsters and abduct wan women in nightgowns. There’s an undeniable romance to what Shulgin does. As he stood there with his spider-web stick, describing what it’s like to be in the lab late on a cold night with the fire blazing and Rachmaninoff on the radio, it seemed to me that he realized it.
He might best be described not as a scientist in the modern sense but as a different type — what Aldous Huxley, the novelist turned psychedelic philosopher, once described as a “naturalist of the mind,” a “collector of psychological specimens” whose “primary concern was to make a census, to catch, kill, stuff and describe as many kinds of beasts as he could lay his hands on.” Shulgin has on occasion run PET scans to see where in the brain some of his drugs go. He has offered theories as to mechanisms of action or, as with MDMA, even suggested an application for a drug. But his primary purpose, as he sees it, is not to worry about things like that — much less about the political and social consequences of his creations. His job is to be first and then push on somewhere new. What to do with the widening wake of chemicals he leaves behind is for the rest of us to figure out.
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:52:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/30/05 11:05:10 AM, skrupa20022002@yahoo.com writes:
Hi everyone! I took my last buprenex dose this am.Dont know how bad
withdrawal
will get ,but I know Im in the right place for support as needed.They tell
me bup w/d is very long but milder ,any ibonauts hve experience in this
arena.Im considering ibogaine if this gets too tough,probably sara’s. Not
really wanting to go to mexico again ,love those folks but dont really
want the clinical setting deal, no angels around that I know of, I would
never do it alone even tho Ive done it 3 times.All this tuff love stuff
has me wondering how many times do I choose to go thru this, feeling like
the detox queen here,what would my life be like if I wasnt doing this once
or twice a year?Love yall, ill keep you posted -shell
Shelly,
If you are treating withdrawal and not addiction much lower doses of ibogaine
can be used. Buprenorphine binds to receptors for quite a long time. Some
of its metabolites may hang out for weeks. Even 150 mg HCl may have a
significant effect on moderating dependence as well as producing psychotherapeutic
benefits in some subjects. I would wait until you are experiencing withdrawal as
a matter of safety until more is known about burpenorphine and ibogaine
interaction. You might even start with 50mg HCl just to test the waters. Was your
last dose of burprenex 1mg and just to make sure you are not taking the
naloxone mix are you? I think going to Sara’s is a good idea even if it is not
tough going. It is like something to do. And with Sara there is so much more
than ibogaine/iboga.
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment/attn preston
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:42:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/30/05 12:46:58 PM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:
she thinks the ibo was very good for her and wants to do it again, when
better prepared and more ready to stop drugs and in a more supportive
setting.
still i wounder if she has to have some bad cold turkey before she is
really willing to stop? i mean i hope not but i know withdrawals gave
me a lesson i needed.
Dear Ekki,
In difference to many others I am uncertain one has to be consciously
prepared to do anything including stopping drugs after ibogaine. The discovery of
ibogaine’s antiaddictive effects was not made by uses intent on stopping but,
only on discovering and experiencing a new drug. I don’t think one has to
suffer to recognize the benefits that ibogaine shows though if you have gone
through withdrawal and then do ibogaine that sure does appear as a miracle. The
historic use of ibogaine has shown that multiple treatments are more effective
than single treatments. If you do manage some HCl I would be interested in your
evaluation of that and if you are in Germany, well Sara is only a hop skip
and jump away in Holland. But, the ibogaine experience that started this all
was self administered so what can I say. Good luck to your lady and you. Also
don’t forget low dose therapy may be of use 100mg – 300 mg HCl or equivalent of
extract but, do be careful of concurrent other drug use as ibogaine most
likely potentiates both stimulants and opioids. Most experienced drug users can
figure this out. Past experience has shown 1/4 dose of opiates in low dose
ibogaine therapy where opiates are to be continued will suffice and the longer
afterwards the better. Preston, what do you think of this and any others who
have experience.
Howard
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:30:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Randy wrote >Have you ever met Preston? I have,
and maybe I’m just too sensitive, but I swear I could see the pain in his face
when he had to move around. Does he or anyone else with as many pain issues
as he has not have the right to try and make his life easier to deal with?<
Thanks very much for pointing this out Randy.
I was again finding myself thinking about this whole thread this morning, and Nick’s position. I’m very sick of reading Nick accusing me of making excuses to be a junkie. For crying out loud, I think my wanting to be as pain free as possible, considering I can barely freakin walk, or put my right foot down on the ground, or sit at my desk and type, or feel the skin in much of my right leg and foot and beyond that numbness there’s just excruciating pain, is very understandable, and something I don’t have to make excuses for- nor do I have to or want to justify it, most particularly to someone like Nick.
I thank the powers that be for something like ibogaine, which might very well allow me to use opiates in much smaller amounts than might have been necessary otherwise, that will allow me to keep my tolerance in check as I continue to use opiates for my foreseeable future, maybe, if I can find a steady supply over the next however many years I have left on the planet.
I’d personally be more than shocked if someone told me they’d only sell ibogaine to me if I was going to be using it only to get completely off drugs, or with any stipulations whatsoever, and would be really upset with someone is they refused to sell it to me or to anyone with this sort of stipulation in mind.
And I keep coming back to the whole thing about ibogaine itself being highly illegal and controversial in and of itself. I wonder what the prohibitionist minded folk would think about your attitutde Nick, that ibogaine is an ok drug to use but only to get others off drugs (am I ready your position correctly here?)- they’d laugh in your face. It’s tough enough getting prohibition-deluded folk to accept methadone clinics (not my preference, but in today’s horrific age and attitude a very necessary avenue to those not wanting to continue their lives running the streets dodging cops but are not ready to stop “using” some sort of opiate.)
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Dr. Tom, I read your post the other day and didn’t have time to give it the
thought that it deserves, I have time now. First off, I’m not a provider but I
know a few and I’d like to say something here. LOL I have to see that 4 inch
group offhand at 50 yards. I might be able to get 4 inch groups with a Ruger Mk
II but with 2 hands and a rest. ‘Nuff’ jokin’, this is serious. This issue
needs to be addressed. When I had my treatment everyone, and I mean everyone
wanted to know about my aftercare and plans for the future to the point that it
irratated me. Turns out that they were right about therapy by the way. Nobody
that I know of will treat anyone just to make it easier to get high. This has
probably been hashed out allready, I haven’t had time to read everthing on the
list for days now, but I have to say this. Have you ever met Preston? I have,
and maybe I’m just too sensitive, but I swear I could see the pain in his face
when he had to move around. Does he or anyone else with as many pain issues
as he has not have the right to try and make his life easier to deal with?
That’s not a decision I would make carte blanch (where the hell is the spell
checker on this thing?) about anyone. Besides if I had my way Ibogaine would be
legal and this would be a mute point. If I was a provider I would have to take
all things into consideration on an individual basis. To me, Ibogaine is about
the choices it gives you and the best route out of addiction that I personaly
know of. I’ve been addicted off and on since the 70’s to oppiates. This is the
first time I have felt good about being clean since I shot Morphine when I was
15 years old. I didn’t really see how it could work for me but I tried
anyway. It worked. How do we know who it will work for and who it won’t? There is a
screening process and I’d have to say that to the man everyone treated here of
late in the NYC area truly wanted to get clean. I hope Preston doesn’t mind
me saying this but I would imagine if he could have been clean AND free of pain
he probably would have loved it. That didn’t happen for him and I wish it
had. Ibogaine is medicine and should be treated that way. Oppiates are medicine
too, just look at all those ‘scripts that get written for them. Dr.’s give out
an addictive substance all day long and the government won’t let people who
want out of addiction have the single most effective way of dealing with that
addiction legaly obtain Ibogaine. That almost seems evil to me. There should be
Ibogaine information in every Dr.’s office and Methadone clinic in the US. I’m
covering my end on that, how ’bout you? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it
again, I won’t shut up until every addict that I know of at least knows that
there is another way out. I pay close attention to everything you say and I’m
glad that you brought this up. When I get back to the Catskills I’m gonna’ work
on my one handed shot.hehehehe Randy
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 12:46:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ekki,
hello howard
I agree with Jason that the paradigm shift from IV to Nose is a big
we just phoned. she shot up 0,1g today which is very little and all she bought for today. she is certainly aware she needs less. the shift from iv to nose didnt last long, unfortunately.
one. How does she view that? I am also curious as to what thoughts about
ibogaine she may have had?
i did send her some links last year. she was interested because i told her that it did me very good. she expected some visions like she read about in the net.
What changes do you see in her if any?
being a psychotic borderliner she is always comletely unpredicable. the day after she was in very good mood, we went ice-scating and generally had a lot of fun. i was really wondering since i had to stay in bed for 3 days after my self-treatment.
What is her
take on it all?
she claims to be clearer in her head than she has been for years. we had resonable conversations afterwards which was rarely possible lately. she was oftentimes threating suicide recently, but since the ibo she is talking more about future plans. btw she allowed me to discuss her ibo-experience on this list.
To me it seems like a positive experience in that there are
benefits to her. Reduction of opiates, stopping iv injection and cutting coke.
How does she interpret these things?
she thinks the ibo was very good for her and wants to do it again, when better prepared and more ready to stop drugs and in a more supportive setting.
still i wounder if she has to have some bad cold turkey before she is really willing to stop? i mean i hope not but i know withdrawals gave me a lesson i needed.
Thanks
Howard
peace ekki
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From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hyperactivity- Ann
Date: January 30, 2005 at 12:37:48 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks Julie 🙂
Since I subscribe to the theory that most addicted persons are trying
to feel better – nothing new in that, right? So I ask, “better than what?”
and, if a person feels bad in some way and has felt that way all of his
life, how in the hell is that person supposed to figure that out this isn’t
necessarily the most optimal state of life? So, society points fingers
and applies labels (not necessarily good ones, either) to these persons
who are merely attempting to survive and feel better in some way. ??
Who cares enough to look beyond the behavior at the cause?
ann
think@francomm.com
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hyperactivity- Ann
Hi Ann,
You wrote:
**I wonder too? I also wonder if there is a
coorelation to “hyperactivity”
in
childhood?
Just wanted to let you know, that I WAS a hyperactive
child. I had to be taken off sugar and red
food-colouring until about 9/10 years old.
I find your hypothesis very thought-provoking, and
would be interested in hearing how many of us were
hyperactive as children. Maybe this is why we were
drawn to the opiate class of drugs…??
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Shelley- Acupuncture
Date: January 30, 2005 at 12:21:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Julie ,I like acupuncturte.com & especially yinyanghouse.com. Acupuncture has been a godsend to me & I loved it so much that i graduated from a school here in October!And guess what led me to the school-you got it iboga herself! By the way ,all the acupuncturist I know use the disposable sterile needles, finally found a way for this old nedle junkie to spread healinmg rather than dis-ease-shell
Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Shelley,
I am very interested in acupuncture…unfortunately,
some asshole practitioner used dirty needles here in
Toronto, and ended up giving a bunch of people some
crazy skin disease. Ever since that went down, I have
been very cautious.
Can you point me to a good informational website about
acupuncture?
Thanks a bunch,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Shelley- Acupuncture
Date: January 30, 2005 at 12:06:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Shelley,
I am very interested in acupuncture…unfortunately,
some asshole practitioner used dirty needles here in
Toronto, and ended up giving a bunch of people some
crazy skin disease. Ever since that went down, I have
been very cautious.
Can you point me to a good informational website about
acupuncture?
Thanks a bunch,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hyperactivity- Ann
Date: January 30, 2005 at 12:03:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ann,
You wrote:
**I wonder too? I also wonder if there is a
coorelation to “hyperactivity”
in
childhood?
Just wanted to let you know, that I WAS a hyperactive
child. I had to be taken off sugar and red
food-colouring until about 9/10 years old.
I find your hypothesis very thought-provoking, and
would be interested in hearing how many of us were
hyperactive as children. Maybe this is why we were
drawn to the opiate class of drugs…??
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the la…
Date: January 30, 2005 at 11:39:28 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the la…
Julie, I’ve never been able to sleep “normal” all my life. My momma reads the
list and she can testify to that. I wonder how many of us junkie types are
the same way?
**I wonder too? I also wonder if there is a coorelation to “hyperactivity” in
childhood? Either none of the so-called “Professionals” in the emotional/mental
health knew of any such connection or else this happened to be a very slow and
backward section of the country (Sorry, Randy). I certainly did seek help and
mostly got blank looks or suspicion (what is wrong with this mother?) in return.
Randy had horrible nightmares from which I had great difficulty awakening him.
I bet that there is a bunch of us like that. I get 5 or 6 solid
hours of sleep most of the time but I’m old (kinda) and I hear you need less
sleep as you get older so I don’t sweat it. I take power naps when I have the
time. I’ve been so busy here of late that I needed to be up 18 or 20 hours at a
time. It doesn’t seem to drag me out near as bad as it did when I was addicted.
Sleep stuff like diphenhydramine and meletonin or kava helps to make it a
better solid sleep for me but when I’ve had a laid back day I don’t need anything
anymore. That’s a switch for me. I hope this helps. Randy
with respect,
mama to Biscuit Boy
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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the last 4-5 months
Date: January 30, 2005 at 11:18:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Julie, have you tried acupuncture ,it really helped me post ibogaine for sleep.
Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
My question is for those treated recently: how are
your sleeping patterns? Is it just me, or do you
often wake up several times per night, for no apparent
reason? Or have your patterns returned to normal?
Melatonin seems to work pretty well, but only for the
first 4-5 hours and then BOOM!!: I wake up between
3-6am, every single night, regardless of diet, drug
intake, the day’s activities, etc….
I don’t want to complain, but it’s really starting to
get to me. I would really like to have 7 hours of
uninterrupted sleep, and I just can’t seem to get that
now. Don’t want any benzos, but would like some
advice on how to improve quality of sleep…
smiles,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 11:04:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi everyone! I took my last buprenex dose this am.Dont know how bad withdrawal will get ,but I know Im in the right place for support as needed.They tell me bup w/d is very long but milder ,any ibonauts hve experience in this arena.Im considering ibogaine if this gets too tough,probably sara’s. Not really wanting to go to mexico again ,love those folks but dont really want the clinical setting deal, no angels around that I know of, I would never do it alone even tho Ive done it 3 times.All this tuff love stuff has me wondering how many times do I choose to go thru this, feeling like the detox queen here,what would my life be like if I wasnt doing this once or twice a year?Love yall, ill keep you posted -shell
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/30/05 9:18:22 AM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:
>i treated my friend on thursday. i found out she didnīt really want to
>stop using. maybe she needs more suffering ( i hope not). she didnīt
>have any visions although i gave her quite a lot of extract (the same i
>took), but very carefully building up and constantly checking her
>physical state. she complained about a humming sound and white flashes
>of light before her eyes. btw she also never could get any fun out of
>lsd.
>
>still she was impressed that she didnīt feel like smoking cigarettes
>and her heroin consumption now is down from 1(i.v.) to 0,4 (nose)
>gr/day and she didnīt touch c since then. she didnīt actually have any
>withdrawal symptoms the next day, but still she wanted to cop.well its
>only 3 days now, to early to judge the outcome.
>what i really didnīt consider was that she didnīt have a day without
>dope since 3 years, even in hospital she secretly took some and was
>kicked out anyway after 3 days. so she doesnīt know whats like to quit
>without ibo which maybe diminshes her admiration for it. still iīm
>happy we tried and i think it did do some good, but she wasnīt ready
>for it yet. maybe i was to eager to give it to her after my own great
>experience with it, but she claimed she really wanted to try it.
>also she knows now there is an exit in case she wants to get out some
>day.
Hi Ekki,
I agree with Jason that the paradigm shift from IV to Nose is a big
one. How does she view that? I am also curious as to what thoughts about
ibogaine she may have had? What changes do you see in her if any? What is her
take on it all? To me it seems like a positive experience in that there are
benefits to her. Reduction of opiates, stopping iv injection and cutting coke.
How does she interpret these things?
Thanks
Howard
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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:57:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ekki ,I wanted to say thank you for your interesting article about lonliness in response to my posts about my experience.Im intigued about your getting to treat folks there! Thanks again -shell
ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
> Personally, if Ekki wants to complain
> about the German government trying to fence addicts in, well, to me,
> it’s
> fair enough what they do. Freedom of speech and action is one thing,
> but if
> you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
> day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
> think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s
> totally
> fine.
but nick, i DONīT DO HEROIN anymore. i came into direct contact with
heroin just do days ago. i could have have some for free, but i didnīt
do any. also i donīt smoke, drink or use other drugs anymore. so you
think its ok to punish people who have already stopped by themselves?
iīm actually trying to help others you want to quit.
anyway how can you constantly check, judge and evaluate other people?
you wonīt make the world a better place like this!
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:48:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/30/05 9:18:22 AM, ekkijdfg@gmx.de writes:
i treated my friend on thursday. i found out she didnīt really want to
stop using. maybe she needs more suffering ( i hope not). she didnīt
have any visions although i gave her quite a lot of extract (the same i
took), but very carefully building up and constantly checking her
physical state. she complained about a humming sound and white flashes
of light before her eyes. btw she also never could get any fun out of
lsd.
still she was impressed that she didnīt feel like smoking cigarettes
and her heroin consumption now is down from 1(i.v.) to 0,4 (nose)
gr/day and she didnīt touch c since then. she didnīt actually have any
withdrawal symptoms the next day, but still she wanted to cop.well its
only 3 days now, to early to judge the outcome.
what i really didnīt consider was that she didnīt have a day without
dope since 3 years, even in hospital she secretly took some and was
kicked out anyway after 3 days. so she doesnīt know whats like to quit
without ibo which maybe diminshes her admiration for it. still iīm
happy we tried and i think it did do some good, but she wasnīt ready
for it yet. maybe i was to eager to give it to her after my own great
experience with it, but she claimed she really wanted to try it.
also she knows now there is an exit in case she wants to get out some
day.
Hi Ekki,
I agree with Jason that the paradigm shift from IV to Nose is a big
one. How does she view that? I am also curious as to what thoughts about
ibogaine she may have had? What changes do you see in her if any? What is her
take on it all? To me it seems like a positive experience in that there are
benefits to her. Reduction of opiates, stopping iv injection and cutting coke.
How does she interpret these things?
Thanks
Howard
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the la…
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:38:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie, I’ve never been able to sleep “normal” all my life. My momma reads the
list and she can testify to that. I wonder how many of us junkie types are
the same way? I bet that there is a bunch of us like that. I get 5 or 6 solid
hours of sleep most of the time but I’m old (kinda) and I hear you need less
sleep as you get older so I don’t sweat it. I take power naps when I have the
time. I’ve been so busy here of late that I needed to be up 18 or 20 hours at a
time. It doesn’t seem to drag me out near as bad as it did when I was addicted.
Sleep stuff like diphenhydramine and meletonin or kava helps to make it a
better solid sleep for me but when I’ve had a laid back day I don’t need anything
anymore. That’s a switch for me. I hope this helps. Randy
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:23:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
thanks for the sympathy, julie, nick and jason!
i will try some of the HCL and see if and how its different from the extract.
Am 30.01.2005 um 16:02 schrieb Ms Iboga:
Ekki,
I”m very happy for both you and your friend. Have you
thought about trying a bit of the HCL?
Julie
–
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:21:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dr. Tom, I read your post the other day and didn’t have time to give it the
thought that it deserves, I have time now. First off, I’m not a provider but I
know a few and I’d like to say something here. LOL I have to see that 4 inch
group offhand at 50 yards. I might be able to get 4 inch groups with a Ruger Mk
II but with 2 hands and a rest. ‘Nuff’ jokin’, this is serious. This issue
needs to be addressed. When I had my treatment everyone, and I mean everyone
wanted to know about my aftercare and plans for the future to the point that it
irratated me. Turns out that they were right about therapy by the way. Nobody
that I know of will treat anyone just to make it easier to get high. This has
probably been hashed out allready, I haven’t had time to read everthing on the
list for days now, but I have to say this. Have you ever met Preston? I have,
and maybe I’m just too sensitive, but I swear I could see the pain in his face
when he had to move around. Does he or anyone else with as many pain issues
as he has not have the right to try and make his life easier to deal with?
That’s not a decision I would make carte blanch (where the hell is the spell
checker on this thing?) about anyone. Besides if I had my way Ibogaine would be
legal and this would be a mute point. If I was a provider I would have to take
all things into consideration on an individual basis. To me, Ibogaine is about
the choices it gives you and the best route out of addiction that I personaly
know of. I’ve been addicted off and on since the 70’s to oppiates. This is the
first time I have felt good about being clean since I shot Morphine when I was
15 years old. I didn’t really see how it could work for me but I tried
anyway. It worked. How do we know who it will work for and who it won’t? There is a
screening process and I’d have to say that to the man everyone treated here of
late in the NYC area truly wanted to get clean. I hope Preston doesn’t mind
me saying this but I would imagine if he could have been clean AND free of pain
he probably would have loved it. That didn’t happen for him and I wish it
had. Ibogaine is medicine and should be treated that way. Oppiates are medicine
too, just look at all those ‘scripts that get written for them. Dr.’s give out
an addictive substance all day long and the government won’t let people who
want out of addiction have the single most effective way of dealing with that
addiction legaly obtain Ibogaine. That almost seems evil to me. There should be
Ibogaine information in every Dr.’s office and Methadone clinic in the US. I’m
covering my end on that, how ’bout you? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it
again, I won’t shut up until every addict that I know of at least knows that
there is another way out. I pay close attention to everything you say and I’m
glad that you brought this up. When I get back to the Catskills I’m gonna’ work
on my one handed shot.hehehehe Randy
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Vision problems/solutions post-Ibo
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:07:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
J.,
Just wanted to chime in with my experience. When I
first went on methadone, I had vision problems, and
had to get a prescription for spectacles, which I
would use for reading mostly.
After my Ibo detox, when I could actually see straight
again, I noticed I no longer needed to use the
glasses, as I could read books/papers/mags with my own
two eyes.
This leads me to believe that methadone might affect
your vision, and this is probably because it
constricts your pupils, thus limiting the amount of
light that hits your retinas. It’s so great to have
my glasses tucked away at the bottom of my sock
drawer.
Anyone else experience something similar?
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:07:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de> wrote:
i treated my friend on thursday. i found out she
didnīt really want to
stop using. maybe she needs more suffering ( i hope
not). she didnīt
have any visions although i gave her quite a lot of
extract (the same i
took), but very carefully building up and constantly
checking her
physical state. she complained about a humming sound
and white flashes
of light before her eyes. btw she also never could
get any fun out of
lsd.
still she was impressed that she didnīt feel like
smoking cigarettes
and her heroin consumption now is down from 1(i.v.)
to 0,4 (nose)
gr/day and she didnīt touch c since then. she didnīt
actually have any
withdrawal symptoms the next day, but still she
wanted to cop.well its
only 3 days now, to early to judge the outcome.
what i really didnīt consider was that she didnīt
have a day without
dope since 3 years, even in hospital she secretly
took some and was
kicked out anyway after 3 days. so she doesnīt know
whats like to quit
without ibo which maybe diminshes her admiration for
it. still iīm
happy we tried and i think it did do some good, but
she wasnīt ready
for it yet. maybe i was to eager to give it to her
after my own great
experience with it, but –>she claimed she really
wanted to try it.
also she knows now there is an exit in case she
wants to get out some
day.
-ekki
Ekki,
I wish I had friends like you when I was there, I
probably wouldn’t want to quit if I never experenced
Sickness yet too.
I think the paradigm shift from IV to Nose is a big
one.
Well Wishes to Friend and You.
Cheers,
Jason
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 10:02:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ekki,
I”m very happy for both you and your friend. Have you
thought about trying a bit of the HCL?
Julie
–
__________________________________________________
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From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 30, 2005 at 9:57:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Original Message —
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:39:35 +0100
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
2) what is wrong with being desenfranchised from society? think about
jesus. i surely don´t want to be part of mainstream society in its
present state.
Jesus wasn’t “emotionally disenfranchised.” That is what I wrote, not
just
disenfranchised.
One of things you can get from time in a therapeutic community is that
you
can learn the value of being straight with people, man. You don’t have
to
MANIPULATE what others are saying in order to put a counterposing point
across, which is, frankly, pretty much all I see happening here on this
list with this thread. Not just you by any means. And for sure I’ve
done
plenty of it in the past. You can just be straight and state your
opinion.
You have the right. If you don’t agree then say you don’t agree. It’s
fine.
I state an opinion and nobody on this list opposes it directly. All
they
do is twist it around into different interpretations and present
counter-ideas
to their own interpretations – reacting with the same learned defensive
responses they’ve no doubt been carrying around their whole lives. Shit
man, that is pure 100% junkie behaviour – low self esteem covered over
with
layers of bullshit and defence. You think ibogaine is going to stop
that?
All ibogaine can do is throw it in your face and hope you don’t avoid.
You have a right to your opinions. You don’t have to twist things
around.
If you don’t like something just say so! Be straight. It’s ok.
Now I feel like some kind of schoolteacher!
sorry nick, i didn´t consciously want to manipulate what you are saying.
i´m not a native speaker and i enjoy improving my skills in written
english. i had to look up the word “disenfranchised” in my online
dictionary. it says: “deprived of the rights of citizenship especially
the right to vote”. what does “emotionally disenfranchised” then
exactly mean? maybe jesus was a bad example.
Hi Ekki,
OK, fair enough. I was just using it as an example to put a viewpoint across.
That’s me, manipulating away as usual!
Yes, I agree. Addiction is a great learning. You’ve got the learning
Ekki,
do you not agree it’s great if others get it too?
love
Nick
i also agree with you.
do you mean others should become addicted,too, to get the learning?
just kiddin(“twist it around into different interpretations”)
i´m thinking about founding my own self-help group for ex-junkies
deprieved of their drivers licence. we could share taxicabs and i could
spread the gospel of bwiti.
…peace… &LOVE
ekki
Sounds good. I’m sorry about your girlfriend. My brother was the same. He
took 4-5 big doses of ibogaine in the late 90s but would never stay off.
He was always happy to talk about getting off and eventually I realized
that was as far as he was prepared to go.
love
Nick
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___________________________________________________________
Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 30, 2005 at 9:39:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
2) what is wrong with being desenfranchised from society? think about
jesus. i surely don´t want to be part of mainstream society in its
present state.
Jesus wasn’t “emotionally disenfranchised.” That is what I wrote, not just
disenfranchised.
One of things you can get from time in a therapeutic community is that you
can learn the value of being straight with people, man. You don’t have to
MANIPULATE what others are saying in order to put a counterposing point
across, which is, frankly, pretty much all I see happening here on this
list with this thread. Not just you by any means. And for sure I’ve done
plenty of it in the past. You can just be straight and state your opinion.
You have the right. If you don’t agree then say you don’t agree. It’s fine.
I state an opinion and nobody on this list opposes it directly. All they
do is twist it around into different interpretations and present counter-ideas
to their own interpretations – reacting with the same learned defensive
responses they’ve no doubt been carrying around their whole lives. Shit
man, that is pure 100% junkie behaviour – low self esteem covered over with
layers of bullshit and defence. You think ibogaine is going to stop that?
All ibogaine can do is throw it in your face and hope you don’t avoid.
You have a right to your opinions. You don’t have to twist things around.
If you don’t like something just say so! Be straight. It’s ok.
Now I feel like some kind of schoolteacher!
sorry nick, i didn´t consciously want to manipulate what you are saying.
i´m not a native speaker and i enjoy improving my skills in written english. i had to look up the word “disenfranchised” in my online dictionary. it says: “deprived of the rights of citizenship especially the right to vote”. what does “emotionally disenfranchised” then exactly mean? maybe jesus was a bad example.
Yes, I agree. Addiction is a great learning. You’ve got the learning Ekki,
do you not agree it’s great if others get it too?
love
Nick
i also agree with you.
do you mean others should become addicted,too, to get the learning? just kiddin(“twist it around into different interpretations”)
i´m thinking about founding my own self-help group for ex-junkies deprieved of their drivers licence. we could share taxicabs and i could spread the gospel of bwiti.
…peace… &LOVE
ekki
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] after ibo treatment
Date: January 30, 2005 at 9:17:41 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
i treated my friend on thursday. i found out she didnīt really want to stop using. maybe she needs more suffering ( i hope not). she didnīt have any visions although i gave her quite a lot of extract (the same i took), but very carefully building up and constantly checking her physical state. she complained about a humming sound and white flashes of light before her eyes. btw she also never could get any fun out of lsd.
still she was impressed that she didnīt feel like smoking cigarettes and her heroin consumption now is down from 1(i.v.) to 0,4 (nose) gr/day and she didnīt touch c since then. she didnīt actually have any withdrawal symptoms the next day, but still she wanted to cop.well its only 3 days now, to early to judge the outcome.
what i really didnīt consider was that she didnīt have a day without dope since 3 years, even in hospital she secretly took some and was kicked out anyway after 3 days. so she doesnīt know whats like to quit without ibo which maybe diminshes her admiration for it. still iīm happy we tried and i think it did do some good, but she wasnīt ready for it yet. maybe i was to eager to give it to her after my own great experience with it, but she claimed she really wanted to try it.
also she knows now there is an exit in case she wants to get out some day.
-ekki
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] vegans
Date: January 30, 2005 at 7:51:53 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My girlfriend V has been militantly Vegan since Oct. 2000. She says she is very healthy, and that there isn’t any problem staying healthy. One simply has to do the research on what extra vitamins one might need if one isn’t getting them from their food, but that is not impossible to do either, that it is completely possible to get everything one needs from ones food in terms of nutrition even with any meat or dairy whatsoever.
It might take a little more work, but that’s just how it goes. She doesn’t do it for health reasons, she’s vegan due to not enjoying the idea of eating other animals. That’s her trip and she doesn’t lay it on others. But then, V is a really cool person.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 1:14 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] vegans
Just wanted to comment on the vegan thing, does anyone know of any women that have been a vegan for more than 7 years and is not eating white meats? (fish, chicken..)
Just curious, I have yet to meet one.
If there are, how do they keep healthy? Would be good to post to others considering going vegan, cos I know it’s damn hard to stay healthy…so if you are out there!!!
Kirk
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 6:20:50 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
HEY DONNA, NICK IS NOT GOING TO HURT AN ANT.
HE SAYS WHAT HE SAYS BECAUSE HE CARES ABOUT THE WELL BEING
OF ALL, EVEN WHEN IT SOUND’S LIKE TUFF LOVE.
AS FAR AS I’M CONCERND IT IS BETTER TO HAVE “TUFF LOVE”FROM SOMEONE WHO
CARES
THEN NO LOVE AT ALL AND NO CARE AT ALL.
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: nick227@tiscali.co.uk [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Verzonden: zondag 30 januari 2005 12:00
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine]
Hey Donna, I’m not a twat! Really! You live over near Brighton somewhere?
Well, I get over there now and again. Let’s hang out a bit next time. Really
I’m not a twat and I don’t own a thesaurus! Check me out. love Nick
___________________________________________________________
Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/
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From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis to Preston
Date: January 30, 2005 at 6:02:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick, ya know lately you’ve been saying a lot on this list that makes a lot of sense to me. I’ve been thinking that I wanted to let you know you’re a good healer, and also, from the past to just say hey from an old friend….Jane.
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 29 January 2005 20:20
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis to Preston
>
>
> I’ve been reading this list for years and when I think I understand
> alot of it, I always turn out to be wrong 🙂
>
> I’m not a drug addict, I’ve never done heroin or crack, or even wanted
> to.
>
> If there is any one thing that I think I’ve learned more then anything,
> it’s that addiction is the great equalizer and it can get people from
> such different backgrounds and viewpoints at least conversing, when
> normally they wouldn’t be in the same room together.
>
>
> I don’t agree with what you or Nick are saying here which I think isn’t
> a big problem, we have different opinions.
>
> My question to both of you is and please correct me if I’m wrong, I
> believe that I have a opinion and that means I can choose to live my
> life according to my beliefs and I can accept that others have
> different opinions.
>
> The way I’m reading what both of you are writing is, that your opinion
> is different then mine, because your opinion is more right or moral.
> Since you know what’s best for me and everybody else, your opinion
> should be a mandate and everyone should be doing whatever it is that
> you feel is best.
>
> Am I wrong or putting words in your mouths?
>
> .:vector:.
>
Hey Vector, I think I may have answered your question approaching ten times
in the last couple of days. But, wth, let’s go for it again, viz….
…Personally, I do not agree with Dr Cohen’s
viewpoint. I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary
life…..I think it is fine that government introduce coercive measure to
move socially errant addicts towards treatment and rehab……..
I am NOT saying I am Right and You are Wrong. I am not talking about morals.
I do not oppose your belief “that I have a opinion and that means I can
choose to live my life according to my beliefs and I can accept that others
have different opinions.” It is fine with me. I am simply stating My
Position. I….Am……Simply……Stating……My…….Position.
If you wish to INTERPRET this position and extrapol8 a series of moral
perspectives, then pronounce relative judgements on these perspectives
according to whatever beliefs you have from Your Position then, shit man,
don’t let me stop you, interpret away, everyone else does. I’ll listen. Just
don’t expect me to defend a perspective that you have created yourself and
have claimed is mine.
Am I being unreasonable here?
Nick
> — The Garden wrote:
>
> > using and are trying to ” control the harm ” Just say : I can’t stop
> > and
> > don’t try to justify it. That is very confusing for people who are
> > seeking
> > for help. They could think : ” that Ibogaine thing is not working
> > ..”
> > when
> > Ibogaine is the only thing that could work for them.
> >
> > By the way , I don;t believe that the state should be allowed to
> > force
> > addicts to quit. This works only in totalitarian states. Mao Ste Tung
> >
> > style.
> > We live in democraties and the interest of democraties is to promote
> >
> > the
> > use of drugz.and alcohol and to destroy our values and roots. You
> > read
> > it
> > clear….
> > Why ? I can answer this question in detail in another E-Mail if
> > somebody is
> > interested.
> >
> >
> > God bless
> > Francis
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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>
>
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From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 6:00:00 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Donna, I’m not a twat! Really! You live over near Brighton somewhere?
Well, I get over there now and again. Let’s hang out a bit next time. Really
I’m not a twat and I don’t own a thesaurus! Check me out. love Nick
___________________________________________________________
Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 30, 2005 at 5:47:46 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Original Message —
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: ekki
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:05:29 +0100
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Am 29.01.2005 um 16:07 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with
regard to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating
orientation and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our
planetary
life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my position!
with love
Nick
1) i wouldnt trust medical professionals so much. a lot of people get
hooked on opioids by their physician in cases where it wouldn´t have
been necessary. the pharmaceutical industry is pushing the use of
opioids and anti-depressants. also a lot of medical professionals are
addicted themselves to prescription painkillers since they have easy
access. in addition i know lots of people whos health was seriously
harmed by doctors due to wrong treatment/medication.
Hi Ekki,
This is true.
2) what is wrong with being desenfranchised from society? think about
jesus. i surely don´t want to be part of mainstream society in its
present state.
Jesus wasn’t “emotionally disenfranchised.” That is what I wrote, not just
disenfranchised.
One of things you can get from time in a therapeutic community is that you
can learn the value of being straight with people, man. You don’t have to
MANIPULATE what others are saying in order to put a counterposing point
across, which is, frankly, pretty much all I see happening here on this
list with this thread. Not just you by any means. And for sure I’ve done
plenty of it in the past. You can just be straight and state your opinion.
You have the right. If you don’t agree then say you don’t agree. It’s fine.
I state an opinion and nobody on this list opposes it directly. All they
do is twist it around into different interpretations and present counter-ideas
to their own interpretations – reacting with the same learned defensive
responses they’ve no doubt been carrying around their whole lives. Shit
man, that is pure 100% junkie behaviour – low self esteem covered over with
layers of bullshit and defence. You think ibogaine is going to stop that?
All ibogaine can do is throw it in your face and hope you don’t avoid.
You have a right to your opinions. You don’t have to twist things around.
If you don’t like something just say so! Be straight. It’s ok.
Now I feel like some kind of schoolteacher!
3) i never did regret taking opiates, but i´m happy i stopped now with
the help of ibogain.
being never such a hardcore junky i don´t know how it is for people who
spend 20+ years being strung-out, but with my 4 years i found heroin a
very valuable experience, including the cold turkeys and so on. you can
learn a lot from addiction which may even have a good effect on our
planetary life, since addiction is a model for control mechanisms in
general you have to get free of.
there are and have been so many great people who have “administered a
high-powered analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on
this planet” that i wouldn´t condem it on the whole. think about
writers and musicians.
Yes, I agree. Addiction is a great learning. You’ve got the learning Ekki,
do you not agree it’s great if others get it too?
love
Nick
ekki
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___________________________________________________________
Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 30, 2005 at 5:36:00 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ekki
You hit the nail on the head i just could not find the words i completely agree with you
love donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the la…
Date: January 30, 2005 at 5:32:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Julie
Do you think you need more sleep? is it really bothering you, I ask because the last time I got clean I used to get so stressed about not sleeping, but when I thought about it , it was all i needed, do you think this is the case? Do you think (like me) you just got used to having 7 to 8 hours a night (dead to the world, not move a muscle sleep) ???? I hope you find something to help you sleep and well done for not turning to benzos (i probably would)
Love Donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 5:24:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick do you check the thesaurus for every third word in your emails no offence but they read like you are a twat
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 30, 2005 at 4:05:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Am 29.01.2005 um 16:07 schrieb Nick Sandberg:
I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary
life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my position!
with love
Nick
1) i wouldnt trust medical professionals so much. a lot of people get hooked on opioids by their physician in cases where it wouldn´t have been necessary. the pharmaceutical industry is pushing the use of opioids and anti-depressants. also a lot of medical professionals are addicted themselves to prescription painkillers since they have easy access. in addition i know lots of people whos health was seriously harmed by doctors due to wrong treatment/medication.
2) what is wrong with being desenfranchised from society? think about jesus. i surely don´t want to be part of mainstream society in its present state.
3) i never did regret taking opiates, but i´m happy i stopped now with the help of ibogain.
being never such a hardcore junky i don´t know how it is for people who spend 20+ years being strung-out, but with my 4 years i found heroin a very valuable experience, including the cold turkeys and so on. you can learn a lot from addiction which may even have a good effect on our planetary life, since addiction is a model for control mechanisms in general you have to get free of.
there are and have been so many great people who have “administered a high-powered analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet” that i wouldn´t condem it on the whole. think about writers and musicians.
ekki
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] vegans
Date: January 30, 2005 at 2:39:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
So this 60ish woman has been totally vegan?
Yes the B12 thing is a big issue, I have a friend who is vegan but not very good at looking after herself, so unless she gets a Vit B12 shot every now n then she goes Loco. She now eats chicken and fish every now n then too, supplements could only do so much.
I’m just very interested……and if it helps others too….
Thanks for replying
Kirk
From: booker w [mailto:swbooker@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, 30 January 2005 7:55 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] vegans
Hi Kirsty. Since I am pretty involved in animal rights activism I know several folks who’ve been vegan for many years- altho not sure how many are at 7, since the majority of the real strict vegans seem to be younger. I do know one 60ish woman who’s been vegan for most of her adult life. Seems to me from what I’ve read and heard a few speakers say, the only thing you’re really missing is B12. Easy to take a vitamin for that. If you’re worried about calcium, you actually need less if you don’t eat meat because meat leaches it out of your system. I think you probably need less protein too, than is so often recommended, but that’s easy to get from several sources. In Defense Of Animals has a body-builder spokesman too who’s totally vegan, just to prove that someone can even build muscle without animal products.
I have a tough time staying strict vegan, so it’s harm reduction for me there as well. I do know I feel a whole lot “lighter” when I don’t eat animal products, but for sure I have to eat meals a lot more often. There’s a gazillion opinions about veganism. I’m really not totally against eating animals, if they have a good life. But eating as few as possible certainly lowers cholesteral, keeps your weight down very easily – good for the heart and everything else. There’s a great book called “Mad Cowboy” about a cattle rancher who became vegan and how it improved his health. Howard Lyman – he’s the guy that caused Oprah to get sued by the cattle folks. Also PETA has a vegetarian starter kit on their website. When they say vegetarian, it’s really vegan.
(I gotta admit it’s weird but I kept dreaming about eating chicken and peanut butter myself shortly after ibogaine…)
Hope that helps.. sorry to bore anyone else.. sandy
>From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Subject: [Ibogaine] vegans
>Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:14:57 +1300
>
>Just wanted to comment on the vegan thing, does anyone know of any women
>that have been a vegan for more than 7 years and is not eating white meats?
>(fish, chicken..)
>
>Just curious, I have yet to meet one.
>
>If there are, how do they keep healthy? Would be good to post to others
>considering going vegan, cos I know it’s damn hard to stay healthy…so if you
>are out there!!!
>
>Kirk
>
>
>–
>Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] vegans
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:54:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Kirsty. Since I am pretty involved in animal rights activism I know several folks who’ve been vegan for many years- altho not sure how many are at 7, since the majority of the real strict vegans seem to be younger. I do know one 60ish woman who’s been vegan for most of her adult life. Seems to me from what I’ve read and heard a few speakers say, the only thing you’re really missing is B12. Easy to take a vitamin for that. If you’re worried about calcium, you actually need less if you don’t eat meat because meat leaches it out of your system. I think you probably need less protein too, than is so often recommended, but that’s easy to get from several sources. In Defense Of Animals has a body-builder spokesman too who’s totally vegan, just to prove that someone can even build muscle without animal products.
I have a tough time staying strict vegan, so it’s harm reduction for me there as well. I do know I feel a whole lot “lighter” when I don’t eat animal products, but for sure I have to eat meals a lot more often. There’s a gazillion opinions about veganism. I’m really not totally against eating animals, if they have a good life. But eating as few as possible certainly lowers cholesteral, keeps your weight down very easily – good for the heart and everything else. There’s a great book called “Mad Cowboy” about a cattle rancher who became vegan and how it improved his health. Howard Lyman – he’s the guy that caused Oprah to get sued by the cattle folks. Also PETA has a vegetarian starter kit on their website. When they say vegetarian, it’s really vegan.
(I gotta admit it’s weird but I kept dreaming about eating chicken and peanut butter myself shortly after ibogaine…)
Hope that helps.. sorry to bore anyone else.. sandy
>From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Subject: [Ibogaine] vegans
>Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:14:57 +1300
>
>Just wanted to comment on the vegan thing, does anyone know of any women
>that have been a vegan for more than 7 years and is not eating white meats?
>(fish, chicken..)
>
>Just curious, I have yet to meet one.
>
>If there are, how do they keep healthy? Would be good to post to others
>considering going vegan, cos I know it抯 damn hard to stay healthy卻o if you
>are out there!!!
>
>Kirk
>
>
>–
>Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
>
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the last 4-5 months
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:47:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi julie whats wrong with 4-5 hours sleep at night?
like others on this list i know what its like not to sleep at all for weeks, i.e. zero hours sleep in 3 or 4 weeks.
since i took iboga i´m happy i only need 5 hrs sleep average at the moment, because there is so much else to do. also i remember more dreams. and lying awake at night doesn´t kill me.
what i did a few days after the iboga was to take low doses of antihistamine that are available as soporific. if you take high doses the effect is reversed and you stay awake.
btw benzoes suppress dreaming/working up of daily experience with is a function of sleep. there is this new generation of z-soporifics with is said to be not so hard on your brain and not supress dreaming so much.
i found going for long walks watching my steps or even much better silient sitting meditation very good for mind-digesting and thus reducing the amount of sleep i need/want.
Am 29.01.2005 um 23:06 schrieb Ms Iboga:
Hi everyone,
My question is for those treated recently: how are
your sleeping patterns? Is it just me, or do you
often wake up several times per night, for no apparent
reason? Or have your patterns returned to normal?
Melatonin seems to work pretty well, but only for the
first 4-5 hours and then BOOM!!: I wake up between
3-6am, every single night, regardless of diet, drug
intake, the day’s activities, etc….
I don’t want to complain, but it’s really starting to
get to me. I would really like to have 7 hours of
uninterrupted sleep, and I just can’t seem to get that
now. Don’t want any benzos, but would like some
advice on how to improve quality of sleep…
smiles,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] vegans
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:14:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Just wanted to comment on the vegan thing, does anyone know of any women that have been a vegan for more than 7 years and is not eating white meats? (fish, chicken..)
Just curious, I have yet to meet one.
If there are, how do they keep healthy? Would be good to post to others considering going vegan, cos I know it’s damn hard to stay healthy…so if you are out there!!!
Kirk
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] OT Music Topic
Date: January 30, 2005 at 1:10:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hiya Allison,Give me more info, or download Lime Wire, it’s great, better than Kazaa, (has been for me….faster, better searches etc….)
Hows things up yonder? Heard it’s been hot as~~!~
Kirk
From: Allison Senepart [mailto:paradisepaint@call south.net.nz]
Sent: Sunday, 30 January 2005 2:36 p.m.
To: ibogaine
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT Music Topic
Can anyone on the list help me find a CD my partner is trying to buy. Party Boys. An Australian CD. No-one here in NZ seems to be able to source it and a net search turned up not too much helpful info. Just thought I’d throw that request out. Any help appreciated. Ta Allison
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]
Date: January 30, 2005 at 12:44:53 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Maybe,..just maybe,
This is what they choose to experience.
Maybe their is a reason,a reason
we are not aware of.
Maybe some of us need to experience a life
negating experience,..for whatever reason.
Maybe,..say,..to understand the power of addiction.
What we need more of is understanding ,love and
nonjudgement,..force kills all three.
As the saying goes,
A man convinced against his will is of the same
opinion still.
Mixing love with force is like mixing
oil and water,..they both have their purpose,.but
they just don’t mix.
I understand that you just want to help. I feel, in
my humble opinion the best way to do this is to
just be there when help is asked,..when a person
is ready to help themselves.
with love
Jasen.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 1:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
. I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard
to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation
and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary
life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my position!
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 29 January 2005 13:38
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
In a message dated 1/29/05 6:04:03 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>
>Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people
that respond
>but basically all I have said is that I support the German government in
>its moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like
dragging people
>out of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this
it’s like,
>I’m a nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ
knows what. To
me,
>to be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the
psyche has to
>the idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time.
People
>want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit more
>rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s
>about
>to fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
Hi Nick,
Did you read Peter Cohen’s writing in the HRC ibogaine roundtable
report.
Peter got dana quite upset but, I think his writing may be
directed more at you.
What do you think of his thoughts?
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
(see ibogaine roundtable review and the link to his full article
from there
if you wish). It seems to me that over the years you have gone
from a “world
is doom” to a “world should be controlled” philosophy and that of
course is not
an unnatural course or events. It is just that that control
concept in the
US with prohibition and our prison industrial complex gives me a lot of
concern. And I guess it is not just the US but, I am here.
Howard
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From: “walt denton” <wally1@willitsonline.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 29, 2005 at 8:44:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Actually, I agree with much of Nick’s analysis of the mechanics of
self-sabotage, self-repression, pain
avoidance, etc. as far as it goes. Of course “as far as it goes” is the key
phrase and when in our zeal
we misjudge this it often leads inexorably to disastrous results. On every
level. For ourselves and
for all those unfortunate enough to fall within the reach of our righteous
power. We all know these
misjugments have produced so much of the mischief and suffering in this
world and yet we can never
really imagine it could apply to us as we gallop forth to set things right.
Who among us can really say with certainty that we possess the degree of
uncompromising and
fearless self-honesty that surely is necessary before we can bet OTHER
peoples lives on our
prescriptions and conclusions. Who, after even a moments honest self
reflection can raise his or
her hand?…….I’m ignoring Nick waving his arm furiously. It doesn’t
count if the arm is always raised.
Walt
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Ken, man, I am fine with empathy. But it is not the only tool in
therapy.
There’s come a point where, if you care, you have to not just sit by
empathising while people are destroying themselves. You can start to
take
a
position, this is also possible. This is what I am learning to do.
About Thailand, I did not know that this was happening. Can I ask you,
is
it
your position that you believe that in Europe and the US a simiar thing
would happen? Is that what you genuinely believe? If “Yes” then I think
it’s
fine you resist, if you are in genuine fear of your life. Who wouldn’t.
Hello Nick,
I believe you may not quite understand what empathy means….but lets
leave
that.
I believe something similar could possibly happen in the U.S. ,but most
probably not in Europe and Canada.
The American peoples complicity regarding the attack on Iraq showed just
how
fearful the average American is of
showing dissent towards their government when it has the bloodlust.
The trouble with ‘resisting’ is that these programs only affect the weak
and
are supported by the comfortable. You say “who wouldn’t”….(resist) .
Nick
,would you assist drug addicts and from being rounded up and placed in
‘detox camps’ against their will ? When the round up was going on in
Thailand the general population supported it, these were ‘bad’ people. The
ones who were killed was by ‘accident’ or the police were provoked, or it
really was druggies shooting each other, all within three months….then
it
stopped, wars over folks. Today, there is some collective guilt concerning
the killings, but at the time the country was in bloodlust and the
government brooked no dissent.
There might be a few books you could read concerning social engineeing.
…Ken
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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@call south.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT Music Topic
Date: January 29, 2005 at 8:35:56 PM EST
To: “ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Can anyone on the list help me find a CD my partner is trying to buy. Party Boys. An Australian CD. No-one here in NZ seems to be able to source it and a net search turned up not too much helpful info. Just thought I’d throw that request out. Any help appreciated. Ta Allison
From: Anntelope <Anntelope@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [DrugWar] Re: [Ibogaine] QUESTION on ‘The Nature of Addiction’
Date: January 29, 2005 at 8:34:38 PM EST
To: drug war mailing list <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: drugwar@mindvox.com
Well, I was hooked on Speed and Methamphedimine and Bams till there was a
panic and I couldn’t get any of it anymore. Damned if I didn’t switch to
Coke which I hated but out of desperation took it as opposed to nothing. I
was quite shocked when I actually began to prefer the Coke but lo and behold
it did happen because when Speed re appeared I didn’t care a bit and
continued on with the Coke.
Anyway, ten years ago, I kicked the Coke and I will never be taking it
again. The very thought makes me feel not good. You see, I got Osteo
Militis in my neck bones from some kind of a germ and it was some of the
worst pain I ever endured and most certainly the longest I ever endured it –
nearly three weeks of suffering with a pain that’s like the equivalent of
three or four severe toothaches except it’s in your back. I didn’t realize
bones had feelings too but oh boy do they ever.
I’d say that I don’t agree that Meth addicts can never recover. Pain will
stop you. When all else fails, pain is a teacher of lessons like nothing
else.
LOLOLOL
Anne
http://www.eastvillagepoetry.com
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:33:45 -0500
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Subject: Fw: [Ibogaine] QUESTION on ‘The Nature of Addiction’
—– Original Message —–
From: Kay Lee
To: DPF Texas
Cc: Ibogaine List
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:55 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] QUESTION on ‘The Nature of Addiction’
I wanted the opinion of experts, so I’m asking that y’all read this and let
me know if it is quality work. There’s a new term in prison medical lingo
being reported in papers all over the country. They call the dental problems
related to drugs, “Meth Mouth”. I am adding this to my medical section and
I want to link addiction information – if it is superior information. This
article is part one of a five-part series.
If anyone knows of a better resource, I’d like to read it. Thanks, Kay Lee
The nature of addiction
http://www.smythnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=SCN/MGArticle/SCN_BasicArt
icle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031780461336&path=!home
by Lee Ann Prescott
lprescot@wythenews.com | 276-783-5121
Smyth County News
Wednesday, January 26, 2005
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis to Preston
Date: January 29, 2005 at 7:28:35 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this
is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write
anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s
needed.<
I did not write this Francis, Nick did.
Francis, you did write as near as I can make out, >My point is simple and clear : If you are
using and are trying to ” control the harm ” Just say : I can’t stop and
don’t try to justify it. That is very confusing for people who are seeking
for help. They could think : ” that Ibogaine thing is not working ..” when
Ibogaine is the only thing that could work for them.<
I’m not sure what you mean here. If I felt ibogaine “didn’t work” or “is not working” for me, would I then be expected to keep quiet about it in case I scare off others who may want to try it? LOL, you’re kidding, right?
But then, I never ever said ibogaine wasn’t or working or did not work for me, did I?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis to Preston
Hi Preston !!
I would had bet you will answer my E-Mail 🙂
You wrote :
>And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this
is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write
anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s
needed.<
* # Thank you for your undestanding. I don’t have guts, no more than
everybody else, for sure :-).
What’s excatly a meaninful way to take a stand to addiction, for you ?
For me addiction is the contrary of L I V E = E VI L.. .
I am willing to take a bit of shit but not too much either.;-)
” soft like a rose, but like a tiger when is a matter of principle”
You wrote
Francis recently wrote some comment along the lines of “I can’t believe
someone who has taken ibogaine is still promoting drug use,” or something
along these lines, and you take the position that by taking ibogaine there
is one and just one result expected or valid- all other responces on the
part of the individual who took/takes ibogaine are not valid or worth
listening to if it isn’t “I want nothing to do with drugs now,” or “my
life
should now be an open book to all and sundry and they should behave and
think like me or the state should be allowed to force them to do so,”
again,
something along these lines.
* # No, No, No I never said that 🙂 You are distorting my writting, You
are tryng to read in my mind something that is not there. but you covert
smartly all this with a sort of disclosure ; ” again,
something along these lines. ” My point is simple and clear : If you are
using and are trying to ” control the harm ” Just say : I can’t stop and
don’t try to justify it. That is very confusing for people who are seeking
for help. They could think : ” that Ibogaine thing is not working ..” when
Ibogaine is the only thing that could work for them.
By the way , I don;t believe that the state should be allowed to force
addicts to quit. This works only in totalitarian states. Mao Ste Tung style.
We live in democraties and the interest of democraties is to promote the
use of drugz.and alcohol and to destroy our values and roots. You read it
clear….
Why ? I can answer this question in detail in another E-Mail if somebody is
interested.
God bless
Francis
(I mean, now you’re defining this list for
crying out loud. Boy, you’ve got a lot of fucking nerve. How is what I’m
talking about, or anyone else for that matter, any less about ibogaine
than
what you are or what you would like to discuss? I mean it, what the hell
does that mean, “this is an ibogaine list, not heroin-excuses.net?” Did
you
miss the post about how I am not taking heroin? Even were I, so what? How
would my discussing my thoughts about addiction, opiates and more on this
list make it not about ibogaine- insert bad word here- ?)
🙂 I was not talking particularly of you, but if you feel this was about
you, I can’t stop you…..
I’m really tired of this conversation actually. I’m tired of reading
from you Nick that my reactions and my thoughts about ibogaine aren’t
valid
and are somehow incorrect because I’m of the opinion that we can (and
should) chose to use ibogaine as we will as individuals, not as some
others
want me/us to do so. I cannot say I’m sorry I’m not getting the same
things
from my ibogaine experiences that you are, because I’m not, not in the
slightest. I did get (and am still getting, even in part from this here
list
for crying out loud- and for that matter was even before I tried ibogaine)
quite a lot out of my experiences and am firmly of the opinion that it
should be as available as any and all other drugs (though, as with
everything, I’m sure I could find exceptions to this notion, both about
ibo
and about the other drugs), that it definitely was a very spiritual
experience that gave me a lot of hope and clarity, and I admit to feeling
a
lot of confusion about things in general.
But then, I will probably always feel confusion about things in
general
Nick, Francis and all. I am not someone who can find it in himself to ever
say “my way or the highway,” or “my way by force you unenlightened types”
nor “I know what’s best and wish everyone would do it my way because gee
wouldn’t the world be nice and happy when full of Prestons,” or anything
that remotely implies I have “THE” answer.
I’m a pretty tolerant person Nick, which is why I have so much trouble
with the notion you appear to be promoting. I’d never ever come at people
the way you are, and figure I’d live in a sheltered community where
everyone
else is just like me or striving to be, too if I felt like you about the
world and my place in it.
But you’re welcome to it. Just don’t try to force me ever to your
view.
You can call me a junky or whatever to-you-derogatory you’d like, I don’t
mind. I will continue to be happily in love, writing and publishing and
living and getting the most I can out of my life, helping to do my part to
prove that no matter what drug or non-drug we each chose to use that we
are
all capable of loving and being loved and don’t deserve jail.
You do what you want.
>What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take all
their problems away without them having to move their whole position in
life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.<
What I also get out of your writing is that you imply and assume a hell of
a
lot about other people with no justification whatsoever. I’ve…
Ah, fuck it, this is ridiculous.
Why am I bothering wasting my time on you Nick? This is utterly pointless.
You continue doing what you are, I’ll do the same and stop wasting my
precious time arguing this with you.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:03 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
>
>
>> —–Original Message—–
>> From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: 28 January 2005 01:32
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
>>
>>
>> Francis………. you’re being a grouch 😉
>>
>> Hi Nick, you haven’t posted too much in the last year
>> but aren’t you one of the people who might have a lot
>> of personal feelings about drug addiction due to one
>> of your family members being a junkie? I’m sorry I
>> don’t remember if it was your son or your brother, but
>> there was someone in your family youve dosed with
>> ibogaine a lot of times and no matter what you tried
>> or wanted them to do they would not get clean.
>>
>> In spite of all your self awareness, isn’t it possible
>> you might have a teeny little bit of anger at them?
>> 😉
>>
>
> Hi Carla,
>
> Yes, it’s true, my adoptive brother Ken has had a long term heroin
problem
> in the past and in the late 90s I tried to help him with ibogaine.
> Currently, he claims to be clean but I have my doubts, personally. Yes,
I
> did use to get very pissed off when I tried to communicate with him and
> felt
> I couldn’t really get through to him. However, this doesn’t really > drive
> me
> crazy or anything, though it does still upset me at times. I mean, long
> before he was a druggie he was spaced out and I learned to find people
> that
> could communicate with me and not just put it on him that HE had to
> change.
> Though for him, it’s true I also think it would be fine if the
government
> took a stronger stance. And, yeah, if it happened, he would ring me up
and
> tell me they’re being nazis or whatever.
>
> Really, to be honest, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from these
dialogues
> about just where people who are coming toward ibogaine actually are in
> terms
> of coming towards getting off drugs. Now that ibogaine’s getting bigger
in
> the UK, I’ve people on at me daily to help them get it (I run a website
on
> ibogaine). What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of
the
> people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take
all
> their problems away without them having to move their whole position in
> life
> even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that
could
> happen but it is relatively unlikely.
>
> Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people that
respond
> but basically all I have said is that I support the German government > in
> its
> moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like dragging people
out
> of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this it’s like,
I’m
> a
> nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ knows what. To > me,
> to
> be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the psyche has to
> the
> idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time.
> People
> want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit > more
> rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s
about
> to
> fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
>
> And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this
is
> the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write
> anything
> you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
> meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep
doing
> what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s
> needed.
>
> With love
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>> Am I wrong? I know Marc Emery used to deliver up these
>> 20 page rants about why junkies are sick and potheads
>> are healthy. Couldn’t have had anything to do with his
>> son being a junkie 😉
>>
>> Love to all, especially to everyone writing 15 angry
>> letters to the list each day! 🙂
>>
>> Carla B
>>
>> — The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Nick!!
>> > Your post generate a lot of turmoil
>> > 🙂
>> > That all good, I mean this is free mailing list. You
>> > have few people
>> > who are
>> > acting like they own the list and want to control or
>> > censure everything
>> > that
>> > they don’t like.
>> >
>> > To keep simple :I have made a small list of taboo
>> > subjects:
>> >
>> > TTR subjects: when someone try to explain an addict
>> > how to Take Total
>> > Responsability for his own action.
>> > Spiritual subject : rejection by some of the
>> > contribuitors of anything
>> > relating to the spiritual realm.
>> > Help subjects: ” don’t try to help me , I am doing
>> > good, let me shoot my
>> > dope ”
>> > AA and NA subjects: ” thoses f……g hugers”
>> > Character defects : ” don’t tell me I am selfish,
>> > dishonest, lazy…ect
>> > ”
>> > Judgment : ” nothing is wrong, nothing is bad…. ”
>> > Restriction or control of drugs availability.
>> >
>> > Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to
>> > make new friends
>> > and
>> > eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
>> > You should seriously take in consideration this
>> > bag of tools
>> > Drugz
>> > Music ( avoid classical and religious )
>> > Movies
>> > How much I use to shoot
>> > Self justification
>> > You scrach my back, I scrach your back
>> > Flattery
>> > Drugz pop culture.
>> > Atheism
>> > Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and
>> > organizations,
>> > specialy
>> > religious.
>> >
>> > God bless
>> > Francis
>> >
>> >
>> > —– Original Message —–
>> > From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
>> > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>> >
>> >
>> > > Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for
>> > while, and whether
>> > > I’m
>> > > like
>> > > totally off for writing like this, and I realized
>> > I’m totally fine with
>> > it.
>> > > If the German government wants to push addicts who
>> > are fucking up a bit
>> > > harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
>> > >
>> > > And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone
>> > else who feels
>> > completely
>> > > opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you
>> > towards their viewpoint by
>> > > force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to
>> > force other people to
>> > > your
>> > > viewpoint Nick?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Peace and love,
>> > > Preston Peet
>> > >
>> > > “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
>> > enlightenment is
>> > > often
>> > > mistaken for madness”
>> > > Richard Davenport-Hines
>> > >
>> > > ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>> > > Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>> > > Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
>> > Guide to Drugs”
>> > > Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide
>> > to Ancient
>> > Civilizations,
>> > > Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
>> > > Cont. High Times mag/.com
>> > > Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>> > > Columnist New York Waste
>> > > Etc.
>> > >
>> > > —– Original Message —–
>> > > From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
>> > > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>> > > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
>> > > Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> —–Original Message—–
>> > >>> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
>> > >>> Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
>> > >>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> > >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
>> > fascism
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days
>> > are
>> > >>> numbered, man.<
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I’m not taking heroin.
>> > >>> Though there have been a couple times over the
>> > last few years
>> > >>> where I have
>> > >>> relented and bought a bag or three, those times
>> > were extremely
>> > >>> few and far
>> > >>> between and are a while past now. Not a year
>> > yet, but over half at
>> > least,
>> > >>> probably closer to nine months or so since last
>> > time I did that.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> If you find
>> > >>> these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize
>> > that – you get scared
>> > >>> by
>> > >>> emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into
>> > looking harder at
>> > >>> yourself. It
>> > >>> provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an
>> > aware guy. Check it
>> > >>> out.<
>> > >>>
>> > >>> You’re missing the point Nick.
>> > >>> The scary thing about your emails is that you
>> > seem to be serious,
>> > >>> that you
>> > >>> support forcing other people to submit to your
>> > views by force. This
>> > >>> is
>> > >>> mostly scary to me because I’m just now
>> > discovering this, and now I’m
>> > >>> concerned because I don’t know what I’ve
>> > divulged on list you may
>> > >>> have read
>> > >>> and will one day decide to rat me or someone
>> > else out over
>> > >>> because you think
>> > >>> it would do us good to have someone drag us out
>> > of our homes and
>> > >>> teach
>> > us
>> > >>> the better, or your way anyway. That’s what
>> > scares me, not
>> > >>> looking harder at
>> > >>> myself. I don’t have a single problem with that
>> > particular issue,
>> > >>> of looking
>> > >>> deep and hard within myself, and that you might
>> > think I do have
>> > >>> issue with
>> > >>> that is another thing that leaves me shaking my
>> > head, considering
>> > >>> just how
>> > >>> open I am and always have been about myself and
>> > my feelings and
>> > >>> emotions on
>> > >>> this list. The reaction is notr the looking
>> > inside myself, it’s
>> > >>> you thinking
>> > >>> it’s ok to force others to your way of living
>> > and thinking. That’s a
>> > >>> terrible way to go through life in my opinion,
>> > and I’m glad I’m
>> > >>> not somehow
>> > >>> under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve
>> > so far escaped
>> > >>> and hope I
>> > >>> continue to do so for a long, long time.
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> Hi Preston,
>> > >>
>> > >> Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and
>> > shout for 10 minutes
>> > this
>> > >> morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for
>> > while, and whether I’m
>> > >> like
>> > >> totally off for writing like this, and I realized
>> > I’m totally fine
>> > >> with
>> > >> it.
>> > >> If the German government wants to push addicts
>> > who are fucking up a
>> > >> bit
>> > >> harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
>> > >>
>> > >> love
>> > >>
>> > >> Nick
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> Peace and love,
>> > >>> Preston
>> > >>>
>> > >>> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
>> > for enlightenment is
>> > often
>> > >>> mistaken for madness”
>> > >>> Richard Davenport-Hines
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Not me !!
Date: January 29, 2005 at 7:25:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Someone posted an article about so called drug re-hab in Russia a while back that was scary and extremely harsh and cruel. Can’t remember who posted it but it is well worth reading especially for anyone discussing mandatory removal of addicts. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be subjected to their idea of rehabilitation treatment and can’t imagine anyone else would either. Allison
——-Original Message——-
From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sunday, 30 January 2005 10:44:00 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Not me !!
Hi !!
I want to make clear that I am not at all involve with this idea of
mandatory removal of addicts from the society.
That Nick idea, not mine.
I understand Nick point, but I believe more in ” freedom or death ” like the
Greck of the island of Crete use to engrave on the blade of their
knife…..This is a matter of principle.
God bless
Francis
>
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Listening
Date: January 29, 2005 at 7:19:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi All,
Jasen, the physcal part was ruff for me too, but I
knew that going in and welcomed all the help I could
get. What you write reminds me that I am still
wondering…. What is Normal?….ie is ‘normal’ going
to be the same ‘normal’ I felt on methadone when
‘stabalized’…. I can only say for me it’s different,
but as time goes by my body gets stronger even at this
stage which suprises me, but I welcome it for sure.
What is kindof wierd is when my body really started
letting go was the week following getting new
contacts/glasses. New Vision perhaps effected the way
I was looking at things and perhaps opened up some
opportunities, or maybe it was just coincidence.
The lower dose didn’t keep me up like the normal
ones did. I slept 14 hours afterwards, a good heavy
11 hour sleep. The question for me is do I feel
tired/sleepy/fatigue…Tired: no. Sleepy: no.
Fatigue: sure, but the law of diminishing returns
seems to apply but I’m not sure up to what point yet.
When my multi-year TAmazepam script expired, a
Kava/melatonin Mix is what I used, 3:1
I’ve been at 6 hours a day for a while now. Before
any Ibo I was 9-14 hours a day.
Cheers,-J
— Jasen Chamoun <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Hey Julie,
I can say that now I get 6 to 8 hours sleep in one
night.
No matter what time I go to sleep,..my eyes open at
day break,..which here is about 5:30.
I have been taking herbs for sleep from a
naturopath,
I am also still taking Kava and valerian,..(both
herbs),
as well as the liquid herbs.
I have a love/hate relationship with these herbs
The other night after drinking some wine with dinner
(which I used to dislike),..I went to bed and woke
up
at 1:30am,..I could not go back to sleep,..I took
some
more Kava,..after a couple of hours got back to
sleep.
When I told a Naturapath I was told this is around
the liver time,..(1:30am).
I am still waiting to feel normal???But then what is
normal?
I have to stop sitting around waiting to feel
good,..I do
feel good in my mind (the freedom) but my
body,..well,..
it’s getting better,..very very slowly.
Aaaaarrrgh,..f*ck,..that seems to help sometimes.
At times I feel like a big baby and other times I
feel
like I can restle a bear.(Well,..a very small tame
bear.)
The more I excersise the better I feel,..however I
am not
doing much of that,..you guys know what that’s
like,..you
need to move but don’t have the energy, you know you
have to push yourself,.. but don’t.
This is easy and hard at the same time,..sometimes I
want
to go within and hide from the world and other times
I
am out there,..laughing,..socialising..loving.My
life at the
moment is like a heart monitor.
with
love,..Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP,
Julian and others treated in
the last 4-5 months
Hi everyone,
My question is for those treated recently: how are
your sleeping patterns? Is it just me, or do you
often wake up several times per night, for no
apparent
reason? Or have your patterns returned to normal?
Melatonin seems to work pretty well, but only for
the
first 4-5 hours and then BOOM!!: I wake up between
3-6am, every single night, regardless of diet,
drug
intake, the day’s activities, etc….
I don’t want to complain, but it’s really starting
to
get to me. I would really like to have 7 hours
of
uninterrupted sleep, and I just can’t seem to get
that
now. Don’t want any benzos, but would like some
advice on how to improve quality of sleep…
smiles,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Off Topic dot Min Van
Date: January 29, 2005 at 7:14:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
MIN VÄN (till Åsa)
Lycka är att ha en vän
att ha en vän som du
en vän som alltid finns för mig
min allra bästa vän
Du ställer upp och finns hos mig
när allt känns grått och kallt
den glädje som du bjuder på
den glädjen ger mig allt
Min vän du ger av allt du har
din vänskap är så stor
din tröst när allt känns hopplöst svårt
är större än du tror
Francis
You wrote :
genade, barmhartigheid, zegen, geluk, genadig,
barmhartig, gelukkig
miséricorde, clémence, pitié, compassion, pardon,
laisser aller
Erbarmen, Gnade, glückliche Fügung
Gnade! Erbarmen!
έλεος,
οίκτος,
ευσπλαχνία,
λύπηση,
ευλογία
misericordia, grazia, compassione
mercê (f), discrição, perdão (m)
милосердие,
сострадание
;,
помилование
;
misericordia, clemencia, compasión
Clemencia!
barmhärtighet, lycka, tur
仁慈, 慈悲, 宽恕
嗳呀!
仁慈, 慈悲, 寬恕
噯呀!
慈悲, 寛大さ,
ありがたいこと
‏(الاسم)
رحمه,
رأفه‏
‮רחמים,
רחמנות,
מזל, הקלה,
טוב-לב,
סלחנות‬
‮קריאת
הפתעה או
פח
___________________________________________________________
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Listening to music…..
Date: January 29, 2005 at 7:08:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Julie !!
What do you do when you wake up ? Do you eat something or eat something
sweet ?
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Listening to music…..
Hey Julie,
I can say that now I get 6 to 8 hours sleep in one night.
No matter what time I go to sleep,..my eyes open at
day break,..which here is about 5:30.
I have been taking herbs for sleep from a naturopath,
I am also still taking Kava and valerian,..(both herbs),
as well as the liquid herbs.
I have a love/hate relationship with these herbs
The other night after drinking some wine with dinner
(which I used to dislike),..I went to bed and woke up
at 1:30am,..I could not go back to sleep,..I took some
more Kava,..after a couple of hours got back to sleep.
When I told a Naturapath I was told this is around
the liver time,..(1:30am).
I am still waiting to feel normal???But then what is normal?
I have to stop sitting around waiting to feel good,..I do
feel good in my mind (the freedom) but my body,..well,..
it’s getting better,..very very slowly.
Aaaaarrrgh,..f*ck,..that seems to help sometimes.
At times I feel like a big baby and other times I feel
like I can restle a bear.(Well,..a very small tame bear.)
The more I excersise the better I feel,..however I am not
doing much of that,..you guys know what that’s like,..you
need to move but don’t have the energy, you know you
have to push yourself,.. but don’t.
This is easy and hard at the same time,..sometimes I want
to go within and hide from the world and other times I
am out there,..laughing,..socialising..loving.My life at the
moment is like a heart monitor.
with love,..Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated
in
the last 4-5 months
Hi everyone,
My question is for those treated recently: how are
your sleeping patterns? Is it just me, or do you
often wake up several times per night, for no apparent
reason? Or have your patterns returned to normal?
Melatonin seems to work pretty well, but only for the
first 4-5 hours and then BOOM!!: I wake up between
3-6am, every single night, regardless of diet, drug
intake, the day’s activities, etc….
I don’t want to complain, but it’s really starting to
get to me. I would really like to have 7 hours of
uninterrupted sleep, and I just can’t seem to get that
now. Don’t want any benzos, but would like some
advice on how to improve quality of sleep…
smiles,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Listening to music…..
Date: January 29, 2005 at 6:08:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Julie,
I can say that now I get 6 to 8 hours sleep in one night.
No matter what time I go to sleep,..my eyes open at
day break,..which here is about 5:30.
I have been taking herbs for sleep from a naturopath,
I am also still taking Kava and valerian,..(both herbs),
as well as the liquid herbs.
I have a love/hate relationship with these herbs
The other night after drinking some wine with dinner
(which I used to dislike),..I went to bed and woke up
at 1:30am,..I could not go back to sleep,..I took some
more Kava,..after a couple of hours got back to sleep.
When I told a Naturapath I was told this is around
the liver time,..(1:30am).
I am still waiting to feel normal???But then what is normal?
I have to stop sitting around waiting to feel good,..I do
feel good in my mind (the freedom) but my body,..well,..
it’s getting better,..very very slowly.
Aaaaarrrgh,..f*ck,..that seems to help sometimes.
At times I feel like a big baby and other times I feel
like I can restle a bear.(Well,..a very small tame bear.)
The more I excersise the better I feel,..however I am not
doing much of that,..you guys know what that’s like,..you
need to move but don’t have the energy, you know you
have to push yourself,.. but don’t.
This is easy and hard at the same time,..sometimes I want
to go within and hide from the world and other times I
am out there,..laughing,..socialising..loving.My life at the
moment is like a heart monitor.
with love,..Jasen.
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the last 4-5 months
Hi everyone,
My question is for those treated recently: how are
your sleeping patterns? Is it just me, or do you
often wake up several times per night, for no apparent
reason? Or have your patterns returned to normal?
Melatonin seems to work pretty well, but only for the
first 4-5 hours and then BOOM!!: I wake up between
3-6am, every single night, regardless of diet, drug
intake, the day’s activities, etc….
I don’t want to complain, but it’s really starting to
get to me. I would really like to have 7 hours of
uninterrupted sleep, and I just can’t seem to get that
now. Don’t want any benzos, but would like some
advice on how to improve quality of sleep…
smiles,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Off Topic dot
Date: January 29, 2005 at 5:51:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
genade, barmhartigheid, zegen, geluk, genadig,
barmhartig, gelukkig
miséricorde, clémence, pitié, compassion, pardon,
laisser aller
Erbarmen, Gnade, glückliche Fügung
Gnade! Erbarmen!
έλεος,
οίκτος,
ευσπλαχνία,
λύπηση,
ευλογία
misericordia, grazia, compassione
mercê (f), discrição, perdão (m)
милосердие,
сострадание,
помилование
misericordia, clemencia, compasión
Clemencia!
barmhärtighet, lycka, tur
仁慈, 慈悲, 宽恕
嗳呀!
仁慈, 慈悲, 寬恕
噯呀!
慈悲, 寛大さ,
ありがたいこと
‏(الاسم)
رحمه,
رأفه‏
‮רחמים,
רחמנות,
מזל, הקלה,
טוב-לב,
סלחנות‬
‮קריאת
הפתעה או
פח
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 5:21:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi. I’ve been trying to avoid this discussion, since it DOES seem pointless to try to change anyone’s mind. But Nick, how about all the fat people…should we force them into “rehab” too, or at least go shopping with them and cook their food and exercise them. They’re obviously draining the planet’s “good” vibes by their excess, not too mention all the animal suffering (it’s probably impossible to be fat and a vegan.) I mention fatness because two of my best friends are literally dying from morbid obesity. Watching them eat is like watching a dying junkie shoot up. It’s damn difficult to see, and I offer whatever I can for them, but I don’t support holding a gun to their head… (or forced rehab either.)
Preston, I support your position completely, but I think you’re probably right to give up the fight. Nick, you’ve always been great to me, but yeah, I agree with Howard. You were so into “the world is doomed,” and now I guess you’ve changed that stance and want to help alleviate suffering, which is great! But, just like most of us, we want everyone else to change and think we know just how they should do it. Don’t worry, I think that all the time myself, but I know it’s mistaken. One of the precepts I was told over and over at AA; that everything is happening just exactly the way it’s supposed to – so if Preston and myself are still “using,” that’s perfect. Why that’s perfect, I don’t understand – but I don’t think anyone really understands any of it very well (even the “self-proclaimed gurus.”) Another thing that I also learned in AA is that it’s not really my business what anyone else is doing. Just concentrate on “my side of the street.” (Another damn difficult thing to do.) There’s chaos, then there’s order, then chaos again… that’s the only idea that makes any sense to me anymore…
Best to all, Sandy
>From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
>Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:07:52 -0000
>
>Hi Howard,
>
>Many thanks for the link. Personally, I do not agree with Dr Cohen’s
>viewpoint. I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
>analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
>(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard to
>the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation and
>I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
>individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary
>life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my position!
>
>with love
>
>Nick
>
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Jason, Randy, Jeff, FakeP, Julian and others treated in the last 4-5 months
Date: January 29, 2005 at 5:06:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi everyone,
My question is for those treated recently: how are
your sleeping patterns? Is it just me, or do you
often wake up several times per night, for no apparent
reason? Or have your patterns returned to normal?
Melatonin seems to work pretty well, but only for the
first 4-5 hours and then BOOM!!: I wake up between
3-6am, every single night, regardless of diet, drug
intake, the day’s activities, etc….
I don’t want to complain, but it’s really starting to
get to me. I would really like to have 7 hours of
uninterrupted sleep, and I just can’t seem to get that
now. Don’t want any benzos, but would like some
advice on how to improve quality of sleep…
smiles,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Not me !!
Date: January 29, 2005 at 4:43:27 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi !!
I want to make clear that I am not at all involve with this idea of
mandatory removal of addicts from the society.
That Nick idea, not mine.
I understand Nick point, but I believe more in ” freedom or death ” like the
Greck of the island of Crete use to engrave on the blade of their
knife…..This is a matter of principle.
God bless
Francis
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis to Preston
Date: January 29, 2005 at 3:53:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 29 January 2005 20:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis to Preston
I’ve been reading this list for years and when I think I understand
alot of it, I always turn out to be wrong 🙂
I’m not a drug addict, I’ve never done heroin or crack, or even wanted
to.
If there is any one thing that I think I’ve learned more then anything,
it’s that addiction is the great equalizer and it can get people from
such different backgrounds and viewpoints at least conversing, when
normally they wouldn’t be in the same room together.
I don’t agree with what you or Nick are saying here which I think isn’t
a big problem, we have different opinions.
My question to both of you is and please correct me if I’m wrong, I
believe that I have a opinion and that means I can choose to live my
life according to my beliefs and I can accept that others have
different opinions.
The way I’m reading what both of you are writing is, that your opinion
is different then mine, because your opinion is more right or moral.
Since you know what’s best for me and everybody else, your opinion
should be a mandate and everyone should be doing whatever it is that
you feel is best.
Am I wrong or putting words in your mouths?
.:vector:.
Hey Vector, I think I may have answered your question approaching ten times
in the last couple of days. But, wth, let’s go for it again, viz….
…Personally, I do not agree with Dr Cohen’s
viewpoint. I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary
life…..I think it is fine that government introduce coercive measure to
move socially errant addicts towards treatment and rehab……..
I am NOT saying I am Right and You are Wrong. I am not talking about morals.
I do not oppose your belief “that I have a opinion and that means I can
choose to live my life according to my beliefs and I can accept that others
have different opinions.” It is fine with me. I am simply stating My
Position. I….Am……Simply……Stating……My…….Position.
If you wish to INTERPRET this position and extrapol8 a series of moral
perspectives, then pronounce relative judgements on these perspectives
according to whatever beliefs you have from Your Position then, shit man,
don’t let me stop you, interpret away, everyone else does. I’ll listen. Just
don’t expect me to defend a perspective that you have created yourself and
have claimed is mine.
Am I being unreasonable here?
Nick
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
using and are trying to ” control the harm ” Just say : I can’t stop
and
don’t try to justify it. That is very confusing for people who are
seeking
for help. They could think : ” that Ibogaine thing is not working
..”
when
Ibogaine is the only thing that could work for them.
By the way , I don;t believe that the state should be allowed to
force
addicts to quit. This works only in totalitarian states. Mao Ste Tung
style.
We live in democraties and the interest of democraties is to promote
the
use of drugz.and alcohol and to destroy our values and roots. You
read
it
clear….
Why ? I can answer this question in detail in another E-Mail if
somebody is
interested.
God bless
Francis
__________________________________________________
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis to Preston
Date: January 29, 2005 at 3:19:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’ve been reading this list for years and when I think I understand
alot of it, I always turn out to be wrong 🙂
I’m not a drug addict, I’ve never done heroin or crack, or even wanted
to.
If there is any one thing that I think I’ve learned more then anything,
it’s that addiction is the great equalizer and it can get people from
such different backgrounds and viewpoints at least conversing, when
normally they wouldn’t be in the same room together.
I don’t agree with what you or Nick are saying here which I think isn’t
a big problem, we have different opinions.
My question to both of you is and please correct me if I’m wrong, I
believe that I have a opinion and that means I can choose to live my
life according to my beliefs and I can accept that others have
different opinions.
The way I’m reading what both of you are writing is, that your opinion
is different then mine, because your opinion is more right or moral.
Since you know what’s best for me and everybody else, your opinion
should be a mandate and everyone should be doing whatever it is that
you feel is best.
Am I wrong or putting words in your mouths?
.:vector:.
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
using and are trying to ” control the harm ” Just say : I can’t stop
and
don’t try to justify it. That is very confusing for people who are
seeking
for help. They could think : ” that Ibogaine thing is not working
..”
when
Ibogaine is the only thing that could work for them.
By the way , I don;t believe that the state should be allowed to
force
addicts to quit. This works only in totalitarian states. Mao Ste Tung
style.
We live in democraties and the interest of democraties is to promote
the
use of drugz.and alcohol and to destroy our values and roots. You
read
it
clear….
Why ? I can answer this question in detail in another E-Mail if
somebody is
interested.
God bless
Francis
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis to Preston
Date: January 29, 2005 at 2:15:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston !!
I would had bet you will answer my E-Mail 🙂
You wrote :
And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this
is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write
anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s
needed.<
* # Thank you for your undestanding. I don’t have guts, no more than
everybody else, for sure :-).
What’s excatly a meaninful way to take a stand to addiction, for you ?
For me addiction is the contrary of L I V E = E VI L.. .
I am willing to take a bit of shit but not too much either.;-)
” soft like a rose, but like a tiger when is a matter of principle”
You wrote
Francis recently wrote some comment along the lines of “I can’t believe
someone who has taken ibogaine is still promoting drug use,” or something
along these lines, and you take the position that by taking ibogaine there
is one and just one result expected or valid- all other responces on the
part of the individual who took/takes ibogaine are not valid or worth
listening to if it isn’t “I want nothing to do with drugs now,” or “my
life
should now be an open book to all and sundry and they should behave and
think like me or the state should be allowed to force them to do so,”
again,
something along these lines.
* # No, No, No I never said that 🙂 You are distorting my writting, You
are tryng to read in my mind something that is not there. but you covert
smartly all this with a sort of disclosure ; ” again,
something along these lines. ” My point is simple and clear : If you are
using and are trying to ” control the harm ” Just say : I can’t stop and
don’t try to justify it. That is very confusing for people who are seeking
for help. They could think : ” that Ibogaine thing is not working ..” when
Ibogaine is the only thing that could work for them.
By the way , I don;t believe that the state should be allowed to force
addicts to quit. This works only in totalitarian states. Mao Ste Tung style.
We live in democraties and the interest of democraties is to promote the
use of drugz.and alcohol and to destroy our values and roots. You read it
clear….
Why ? I can answer this question in detail in another E-Mail if somebody is
interested.
God bless
Francis
(I mean, now you’re defining this list for
crying out loud. Boy, you’ve got a lot of fucking nerve. How is what I’m
talking about, or anyone else for that matter, any less about ibogaine
than
what you are or what you would like to discuss? I mean it, what the hell
does that mean, “this is an ibogaine list, not heroin-excuses.net?” Did
you
miss the post about how I am not taking heroin? Even were I, so what? How
would my discussing my thoughts about addiction, opiates and more on this
list make it not about ibogaine- insert bad word here- ?)
🙂 I was not talking particularly of you, but if you feel this was about
you, I can’t stop you…..
I’m really tired of this conversation actually. I’m tired of reading
from you Nick that my reactions and my thoughts about ibogaine aren’t
valid
and are somehow incorrect because I’m of the opinion that we can (and
should) chose to use ibogaine as we will as individuals, not as some
others
want me/us to do so. I cannot say I’m sorry I’m not getting the same
things
from my ibogaine experiences that you are, because I’m not, not in the
slightest. I did get (and am still getting, even in part from this here
list
for crying out loud- and for that matter was even before I tried ibogaine)
quite a lot out of my experiences and am firmly of the opinion that it
should be as available as any and all other drugs (though, as with
everything, I’m sure I could find exceptions to this notion, both about
ibo
and about the other drugs), that it definitely was a very spiritual
experience that gave me a lot of hope and clarity, and I admit to feeling
a
lot of confusion about things in general.
But then, I will probably always feel confusion about things in
general
Nick, Francis and all. I am not someone who can find it in himself to ever
say “my way or the highway,” or “my way by force you unenlightened types”
nor “I know what’s best and wish everyone would do it my way because gee
wouldn’t the world be nice and happy when full of Prestons,” or anything
that remotely implies I have “THE” answer.
I’m a pretty tolerant person Nick, which is why I have so much trouble
with the notion you appear to be promoting. I’d never ever come at people
the way you are, and figure I’d live in a sheltered community where
everyone
else is just like me or striving to be, too if I felt like you about the
world and my place in it.
But you’re welcome to it. Just don’t try to force me ever to your
view.
You can call me a junky or whatever to-you-derogatory you’d like, I don’t
mind. I will continue to be happily in love, writing and publishing and
living and getting the most I can out of my life, helping to do my part to
prove that no matter what drug or non-drug we each chose to use that we
are
all capable of loving and being loved and don’t deserve jail.
You do what you want.
What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take all
their problems away without them having to move their whole position in
life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.<
What I also get out of your writing is that you imply and assume a hell of
a
lot about other people with no justification whatsoever. I’ve…
Ah, fuck it, this is ridiculous.
Why am I bothering wasting my time on you Nick? This is utterly pointless.
You continue doing what you are, I’ll do the same and stop wasting my
precious time arguing this with you.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:03 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 28 January 2005 01:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Francis………. you’re being a grouch 😉
Hi Nick, you haven’t posted too much in the last year
but aren’t you one of the people who might have a lot
of personal feelings about drug addiction due to one
of your family members being a junkie? I’m sorry I
don’t remember if it was your son or your brother, but
there was someone in your family youve dosed with
ibogaine a lot of times and no matter what you tried
or wanted them to do they would not get clean.
In spite of all your self awareness, isn’t it possible
you might have a teeny little bit of anger at them?
😉
Hi Carla,
Yes, it’s true, my adoptive brother Ken has had a long term heroin
problem
in the past and in the late 90s I tried to help him with ibogaine.
Currently, he claims to be clean but I have my doubts, personally. Yes,
I
did use to get very pissed off when I tried to communicate with him and
felt
I couldn’t really get through to him. However, this doesn’t really drive
me
crazy or anything, though it does still upset me at times. I mean, long
before he was a druggie he was spaced out and I learned to find people
that
could communicate with me and not just put it on him that HE had to
change.
Though for him, it’s true I also think it would be fine if the
government
took a stronger stance. And, yeah, if it happened, he would ring me up
and
tell me they’re being nazis or whatever.
Really, to be honest, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from these
dialogues
about just where people who are coming toward ibogaine actually are in
terms
of coming towards getting off drugs. Now that ibogaine’s getting bigger
in
the UK, I’ve people on at me daily to help them get it (I run a website
on
ibogaine). What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of
the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take
all
their problems away without them having to move their whole position in
life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that
could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.
Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people that
respond
but basically all I have said is that I support the German government in
its
moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like dragging people
out
of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this it’s like,
I’m
a
nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ knows what. To me,
to
be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the psyche has to
the
idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time.
People
want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit more
rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s
about
to
fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this
is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write
anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep
doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s
needed.
With love
Nick
Am I wrong? I know Marc Emery used to deliver up these
20 page rants about why junkies are sick and potheads
are healthy. Couldn’t have had anything to do with his
son being a junkie 😉
Love to all, especially to everyone writing 15 angry
letters to the list each day! 🙂
Carla B
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Nick!!
Your post generate a lot of turmoil
🙂
That all good, I mean this is free mailing list. You
have few people
who are
acting like they own the list and want to control or
censure everything
that
they don’t like.
To keep simple :I have made a small list of taboo
subjects:
TTR subjects: when someone try to explain an addict
how to Take Total
Responsability for his own action.
Spiritual subject : rejection by some of the
contribuitors of anything
relating to the spiritual realm.
Help subjects: ” don’t try to help me , I am doing
good, let me shoot my
dope ”
AA and NA subjects: ” thoses f……g hugers”
Character defects : ” don’t tell me I am selfish,
dishonest, lazy…ect
”
Judgment : ” nothing is wrong, nothing is bad…. ”
Restriction or control of drugs availability.
Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to
make new friends
and
eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
You should seriously take in consideration this
bag of tools
Drugz
Music ( avoid classical and religious )
Movies
How much I use to shoot
Self justification
You scrach my back, I scrach your back
Flattery
Drugz pop culture.
Atheism
Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and
organizations,
specialy
religious.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether
I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who
are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone
else who feels
completely
opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you
towards their viewpoint by
force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to
force other people to
your
viewpoint Nick?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide
to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism
Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days
are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the
last few years
where I have
relented and bought a bag or three, those times
were extremely
few and far
between and are a while past now. Not a year
yet, but over half at
least,
probably closer to nine months or so since last
time I did that.
If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize
that – you get scared
by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into
looking harder at
yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an
aware guy. Check it
out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you
seem to be serious,
that you
support forcing other people to submit to your
views by force. This
is
mostly scary to me because I’m just now
discovering this, and now I’m
concerned because I don’t know what I’ve
divulged on list you may
have read
and will one day decide to rat me or someone
else out over
because you think
it would do us good to have someone drag us out
of our homes and
teach
us
the better, or your way anyway. That’s what
scares me, not
looking harder at
myself. I don’t have a single problem with that
particular issue,
of looking
deep and hard within myself, and that you might
think I do have
issue with
that is another thing that leaves me shaking my
head, considering
just how
open I am and always have been about myself and
my feelings and
emotions on
this list. The reaction is notr the looking
inside myself, it’s
you thinking
it’s ok to force others to your way of living
and thinking. That’s a
terrible way to go through life in my opinion,
and I’m glad I’m
not somehow
under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve
so far escaped
and hope I
continue to do so for a long, long time.
Hi Preston,
Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and
shout for 10 minutes
this
morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine
with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts
who are fucking up a
bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 29, 2005 at 1:45:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Ken, man, I am fine with empathy. But it is not the only tool in therapy.
There’s come a point where, if you care, you have to not just sit by
empathising while people are destroying themselves. You can start to take
a
position, this is also possible. This is what I am learning to do.
About Thailand, I did not know that this was happening. Can I ask you, is
it
your position that you believe that in Europe and the US a simiar thing
would happen? Is that what you genuinely believe? If “Yes” then I think
it’s
fine you resist, if you are in genuine fear of your life. Who wouldn’t.
Hello Nick,
I believe you may not quite understand what empathy means….but lets leave
that.
I believe something similar could possibly happen in the U.S. ,but most
probably not in Europe and Canada.
The American peoples complicity regarding the attack on Iraq showed just how
fearful the average American is of
showing dissent towards their government when it has the bloodlust.
The trouble with ‘resisting’ is that these programs only affect the weak and
are supported by the comfortable. You say “who wouldn’t”….(resist) . Nick
,would you assist drug addicts and from being rounded up and placed in
‘detox camps’ against their will ? When the round up was going on in
Thailand the general population supported it, these were ‘bad’ people. The
ones who were killed was by ‘accident’ or the police were provoked, or it
really was druggies shooting each other, all within three months….then it
stopped, wars over folks. Today, there is some collective guilt concerning
the killings, but at the time the country was in bloodlust and the
government brooked no dissent.
There might be a few books you could read concerning social engineeing.
…Ken
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Bwiti on BBC
Date: January 29, 2005 at 1:44:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Would it be difficult to but on-line I wonder?
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:58:30 +0000 (GMT)
From: “Lee Albert” <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> Add to
Address Book
To: eboga@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [eboga] Re: TV Ibogaine Documentary
Monday 24 Jan Att. Luke
Hi Donna,
It must have been good. My web site had about 300 hits
in the last 2 days as opposed to a healthy 40 with a
sudden jump on Amazon.co.uk for the book – what that
means I dont actually know. I seem to be getting more
attention for the book in the UK. I thought originally
it would be more popular in the US. Goes to show
nothing is predictable. More and more I am letting go
of everything and saying to myself: let it all flow.
Being centered in oneself and sensing a calmness
without the need to push has got to be a good thing.
Lee
AbbotAngel@aol.com wrote:
HI Lee
It was good this guy went to live in the tribe for a
month and had the ibo initaiation ceremony, really
interesting
Love Donna
Theres obviously a lot of cultural influence in the
experience. I would like to do an initiation down
there when the time is right.
Lee
lchristoffersen@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Lee,
I taped the program last night. It was quite good.
They guy spends a month with living with the tribe so
we get a glimps at how they live and hunt. What we see
of the initiation is quite short, partially due to
secrecty. The visions could not be disclosed to the
uninitiated.
I was suprised that it was actualy the guy who does
the program, Bruce Perry, going through the
initiation.
Luke
———————————————————————
You’re subscribed to this list with the email
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To unsubscribe, send a message to
eboga-unsubscribe@elistas.com
For more information, visit
http://www.eListas.com/list/eboga
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Just wondered if anyone saw this programme, screened
earlier in the week on
BBC 2 in the UK, and what they thought.
Nick
Tribe Ep 4/6
9.00-10.00pm BBC TWO
Explorer Bruce Parry faces one of his toughest tests
yet as he is inducted
into Bwiti, a rainforest religion practised by the
Babongo people of Gabon.
Hes right to be worried on occasion the ritual,
which involves consuming
an overdose of a powerful hallucinogenic, Iboga, has
proved fatal. Tribe
follows Bruces build-up to the ceremony, as he goes
hunting, collecting
forest honey and spends time getting to know his
newfriends, before they
judge the time is right for his rebirthing ritual.
The drug, Bruce
believes, acts on the areas of the brain where
guiltand remorse lie buried,
allowing people to see themselves as they really
are, warts and all. His
initiation starts as he is fed the tree root,
prompting several hours of
vomiting, said to purge the soul. His tongue is
pricked with a needle to
stimulate speech, while his Bwiti father feeds
strips of the root to him,
singing softly. Bruces recollection of the visions
that follow include
vivid memories of childhood, harsh recollections of
people he had hurt, even
inadvertently, throughout his life, and a sense of
the Earth as a vast
living organism in which everything is connected.
The final phase of the
journey sees the tribe dancing with fire and
encouraging Bruce to make sense
of the shapes he sees in the flames. After reviewing
his visions, Bruce is
determined to revisit a few people whose point of
view he saw more clearly
while under the influence of the drug, to apologise
for any hurt he caused.
Of his emotional experience with the tribe he says:
They have given me
something so special, I shall take a piece of this
village [with me]
wherever I go for the rest of my life.
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Bwiti on BBC
Date: January 29, 2005 at 1:26:10 PM EST
To: “Ibogaine Mindvox” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Just wondered if anyone saw this programme, screened earlier in the week on
BBC 2 in the UK, and what they thought.
Nick
Tribe Ep 4/6
9.00-10.00pm BBC TWO
Explorer Bruce Parry faces one of his toughest tests yet as he is inducted
into Bwiti, a rainforest religion practised by the Babongo people of Gabon.
He’s right to be worried – on occasion the ritual, which involves consuming
an overdose of a powerful hallucinogenic, Iboga, has proved fatal. Tribe
follows Bruce’s build-up to the ceremony, as he goes hunting, collecting
forest honey and spends time getting to know his newfriends, before they
judge the time is right for his “rebirthing” ritual. The drug, Bruce
believes, acts on the areas of the brain where guiltand remorse lie buried,
allowing people to see themselves as they really are, warts and all. His
initiation starts as he is fed the tree root, prompting several hours of
vomiting, said to purge the soul. His tongue is pricked with a needle to
stimulate speech, while his Bwiti “father” feeds strips of the root to him,
singing softly. Bruce’s recollection of the visions that follow include
vivid memories of childhood, harsh recollections of people he had hurt, even
inadvertently, throughout his life, and a sense of the Earth as a vast
living organism in which everything is connected. The final phase of the
journey sees the tribe dancing with fire and encouraging Bruce to make sense
of the shapes he sees in the flames. After reviewing his visions, Bruce is
determined to revisit a few people whose point of view he saw more clearly
while under the influence of the drug, to apologise for any hurt he caused.
Of his emotional experience with the tribe he says: “They have given me
something so special, I shall take a piece of this village [with me]
wherever I go for the rest of my life.”
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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 1:23:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
I don’t recall saying that I know what is best for
everyone.
ok, Nick, do you recall implying that about Heroin
Junkies??
I guess your gentle tone led me to believe this may
also include poly-drug users, etc.
And I don’t
recall saying that total abstinence is the only goal
of ibo treatment.
Sure. Have some ‘taters.
Now for the best part:
with love
Nick
LOL
That is your position, ok. Glad I don’t have to
loose
anymore sleep over wondering what you think.
Do you have the ability to be a non-therapist?
What is it about the therapist/patient
relationship
that you enjoy so much?
Do you actually think “rehab” is in everyones
best
interest???
That’s funny Nick.
Just because your web site kicks serious
ass
doesn’t mean you know whats best for people.
I don’t know what’s best for everyone, and I
know
that. Do you?
If total absitinence is the only goal with Ibo,
then
I feel we are really wasting its potential.
That conference back in November that Patrick
moderated was called Harm Reduction Conf.
If my memory serves correct, this is a heroin
maintence place too 😉
Hi Mr or Mrs no-name,
And I don’t
recall saying that total abstinence is the only goal
of ibo treatment. And I
don’t recall saying Mussolini was God. Oh shit, you
haven’t quoted me as
saying that one yet. But just in case you do.
I know it makes for less exciting reading to have to
stick to what has
actually been stated. I do sympathise. But, man how
could you say that
everyone should be a heroin addict forever,
regardless of their personal
feelings about it? That’s really radical.
If you wanna stick to what’s stated I’m happy to
discuss more. Otherwise….
with love
Nick
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 29, 2005 at 11:37:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 29 January 2005 16:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Personally, if Ekki wants to complain
about the German government trying to fence addicts in, well, to me,
it’s
fair enough what they do. Freedom of speech and action is one thing,
but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s
totally
fine.
but nick, i DON´T DO HEROIN anymore. i came into direct contact with
heroin just do days ago. i could have have some for free, but i didn´t
do any. also i don´t smoke, drink or use other drugs anymore. so you
think its ok to punish people who have already stopped by themselves?
Hi Ekki,
OK, so THIS is what actually happened! I didn’t get that bit before! No I
don’t think it’s ok the government does this to you. I think it’s bad. And I
would happily assist you with it if you think I can. You can get hold of me
on or off list.
love
Nick
i´m actually trying to help others you want to quit.
anyway how can you constantly check, judge and evaluate other people?
you won´t make the world a better place like this!
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 11:32:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 29 January 2005 16:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
I apologize to you Nick and to the list for flying off the handle
over this
issue. It’s silly, yes I may be reading a bit too much into what you’re
saying Nick (although I don’t understand how you think the government can
coerce people into rehabilitating themselves into a way that some in the
government think they should be without doing it by force).
I’m spending way too much time on this, and allowing it to
unsettle me way
beyond any ryhme or reason.
I’m also spending too much bandwidth on everyone else. so enough.
Again, my sincere apologies for blurting out here on-list at you Nick and
subjecting the rest of the list to my unreasonable ire.
Hi Preston,
Many thanks. I appreciate it. About using more coercive rehab and/or
ibogaine strategies, for sure it would be contentious and there would need
to be good protocols set up, initially short-term project lengths, and a
good level of outside assessment, but I definitely think it is a good
direction to move in. That’s me.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 11:21:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else
[mailto:reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca]
Sent: 29 January 2005 15:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
I do not agree that it is valid to
administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s
time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical
professionals with regard to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a
life-negating orientation and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally
disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious
effects on our planetary
life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my
position!
with love
Nick
That is your position, ok. Glad I don’t have to loose
anymore sleep over wondering what you think.
Do you have the ability to be a non-therapist?
What is it about the therapist/patient relationship
that you enjoy so much?
Do you actually think “rehab” is in everyones best
interest???
That’s funny Nick.
Just because your web site kicks serious ass
doesn’t mean you know whats best for people.
I don’t know what’s best for everyone, and I know
that. Do you?
If total absitinence is the only goal with Ibo, then
I feel we are really wasting its potential.
That conference back in November that Patrick
moderated was called Harm Reduction Conf.
If my memory serves correct, this is a heroin
maintence place too 😉
Hi Mr or Mrs no-name,
I don’t recall saying that I know what is best for everyone. And I don’t
recall saying that total abstinence is the only goal of ibo treatment. And I
don’t recall saying Mussolini was God. Oh shit, you haven’t quoted me as
saying that one yet. But just in case you do.
I know it makes for less exciting reading to have to stick to what has
actually been stated. I do sympathise. But, man how could you say that
everyone should be a heroin addict forever, regardless of their personal
feelings about it? That’s really radical.
If you wanna stick to what’s stated I’m happy to discuss more. Otherwise….
with love
Nick
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 11:06:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
but despite my very sincere apology, you are indeed a very scary individual.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Hi Howard,
Many thanks for the link. Personally, I do not agree with Dr Cohen’s
viewpoint. I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary
life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my position!
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 29 January 2005 13:38
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
In a message dated 1/29/05 6:04:03 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
>
>Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people
that respond
>but basically all I have said is that I support the German government in
>its moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like
dragging people
>out of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this
it’s like,
>I’m a nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ
knows what. To
me,
>to be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the
psyche has to
>the idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time.
People
>want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit more
>rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s >about
>to fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
Hi Nick,
Did you read Peter Cohen’s writing in the HRC ibogaine roundtable
report.
Peter got dana quite upset but, I think his writing may be
directed more at you.
What do you think of his thoughts?
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
(see ibogaine roundtable review and the link to his full article
from there
if you wish). It seems to me that over the years you have gone
from a “world
is doom” to a “world should be controlled” philosophy and that of
course is not
an unnatural course or events. It is just that that control
concept in the
US with prohibition and our prison industrial complex gives me a lot of
concern. And I guess it is not just the US but, I am here.
Howard
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 29, 2005 at 11:05:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Personally, if Ekki wants to complain
about the German government trying to fence addicts in, well, to me, it’s
fair enough what they do. Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s totally
fine.
but nick, i DON´T DO HEROIN anymore. i came into direct contact with heroin just do days ago. i could have have some for free, but i didn´t do any. also i don´t smoke, drink or use other drugs anymore. so you think its ok to punish people who have already stopped by themselves? i´m actually trying to help others you want to quit.
anyway how can you constantly check, judge and evaluate other people? you won´t make the world a better place like this!
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 11:01:50 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I apologize to you Nick and to the list for flying off the handle over this issue. It’s silly, yes I may be reading a bit too much into what you’re saying Nick (although I don’t understand how you think the government can coerce people into rehabilitating themselves into a way that some in the government think they should be without doing it by force).
I’m spending way too much time on this, and allowing it to unsettle me way beyond any ryhme or reason.
I’m also spending too much bandwidth on everyone else. so enough.
Again, my sincere apologies for blurting out here on-list at you Nick and subjecting the rest of the list to my unreasonable ire.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 29 January 2005 13:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
>And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man.
Yeah, this is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can
write anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s
what’s needed.<
Francis recently wrote some comment along the lines of “I can’t believe
someone who has taken ibogaine is still promoting drug use,” or something
along these lines, and you take the position that by taking
ibogaine there
is one and just one result expected or valid- all other responces on the
part of the individual who took/takes ibogaine are not valid or worth
listening to if it isn’t “I want nothing to do with drugs now,”
or “my life
should now be an open book to all and sundry and they should behave and
think like me or the state should be allowed to force them to do
so,” again,
Hey Preston,
I would be grateful if you could explain to me how I am saying these things!
I don’t believe I have said such a thing. I think it would be great if you
could paraphrase your insights with something like “How I interpret what
Nick is saying is……” or “How I interpret what you are saying is….” Can
we please go for that? As it is, it seems to me you interpret what I’m
saying in any way that allows you to then critcize that interpretation and
insinuate I am somehow a fascist or whatever. I don’t find this so exciting
really. And I don’t think it does anything for meaningful communication.
Nothing that you have written above is anything that I have ever said, to
the best of my knowledge, and it certainly isn’t my opinion.
something along these lines. (I mean, now you’re defining
this list for
crying out loud.
Well, I said it was the IBOGAINE list. I said it wasn’t heroin-excuses.net.
Is this wrong?
Boy, you’ve got a lot of fucking nerve. How is what I’m
talking about, or anyone else for that matter, any less about
ibogaine than
what you are or what you would like to discuss? I mean it, what the hell
does that mean, “this is an ibogaine list, not
heroin-excuses.net?” Did you
miss the post about how I am not taking heroin? Even were I, so what? How
would my discussing my thoughts about addiction, opiates and more on this
list make it not about ibogaine- insert bad word here- ?)
I’m really tired of this conversation actually. I’m tired of reading
from you Nick that my reactions and my thoughts about ibogaine
aren’t valid
and are somehow incorrect because I’m of the opinion that we can (and
should) chose to use ibogaine as we will as individuals, not as
some others
want me/us to do so.
Well, I expect I would be tired of reading that too, had someone said it
repeatedly to me. But I haven’t actually said it even once, as far as I’m
aware. Man, seems to me you just wanna argue with yourself or something.
I cannot say I’m sorry I’m not getting the
same things
from my ibogaine experiences that you are, because I’m not, not in the
slightest. I did get (and am still getting, even in part from
this here list
for crying out loud- and for that matter was even before I tried
ibogaine)
quite a lot out of my experiences and am firmly of the opinion that it
should be as available as any and all other drugs (though, as with
everything, I’m sure I could find exceptions to this notion, both
about ibo
and about the other drugs), that it definitely was a very spiritual
experience that gave me a lot of hope and clarity, and I admit to
feeling a
lot of confusion about things in general.
But then, I will probably always feel confusion about things
in general
Nick, Francis and all. I am not someone who can find it in
himself to ever
say “my way or the highway,” or “my way by force you unenlightened types”
nor “I know what’s best and wish everyone would do it my way because gee
wouldn’t the world be nice and happy when full of Prestons,” or anything
that remotely implies I have “THE” answer.
I’m a pretty tolerant person Nick, which is why I have so
much trouble
with the notion you appear to be promoting. I’d never ever come at people
the way you are, and figure I’d live in a sheltered community
where everyone
else is just like me or striving to be, too if I felt like you about the
world and my place in it.
But you’re welcome to it. Just don’t try to force me ever to
your view.
You can call me a junky or whatever to-you-derogatory you’d like, I don’t
mind. I will continue to be happily in love, writing and publishing and
living and getting the most I can out of my life, helping to do
my part to
prove that no matter what drug or non-drug we each chose to use
that we are
all capable of loving and being loved and don’t deserve jail.
You do what you want.
Preston, I am NOT trying to upset you. That is not my intention. And I have
not suggested that you or anyone else should be sent to jail. I have spoken
of using ibogaine and rehab in a therapeutic community and of allowing
governments to coerce socially errant addicts into this mode of treatment.
I’m fine if you don’t want to push your opinions out on people. For me, part
of my own development is that I am becoming more pro-active. I am becoming
more aware of how I can make change in the world and that is what I am
learning to do. And I am happy to take feedback. And I am aware that
sometimes good intentions in this area can sometimes change into
neo-fascism. But I am not saying you should be put in prison and I am not
forcing anyone to take my viewpoint. I am just writing emails, stating my
thoughts and opinions. I would be great if you could see that, then I’m sure
we could become closer.
with love
Nick
>What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take all
their problems away without them having to move their whole
position in life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.<
What I also get out of your writing is that you imply and assume
a hell of a
lot about other people with no justification whatsoever. I’ve…
Ah, fuck it, this is ridiculous.
Why am I bothering wasting my time on you Nick? This is utterly pointless.
You continue doing what you are, I’ll do the same and stop wasting my
precious time arguing this with you.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 10:44:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
I do not agree that it is valid to
administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s
time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical
professionals with regard to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a
life-negating orientation and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally
disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious
effects on our planetary
life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my
position!
with love
Nick
That is your position, ok. Glad I don’t have to loose
anymore sleep over wondering what you think.
Do you have the ability to be a non-therapist?
What is it about the therapist/patient relationship
that you enjoy so much?
Do you actually think “rehab” is in everyones best
interest???
That’s funny Nick.
Just because your web site kicks serious ass
doesn’t mean you know whats best for people.
I don’t know what’s best for everyone, and I know
that. Do you?
If total absitinence is the only goal with Ibo, then
I feel we are really wasting its potential.
That conference back in November that Patrick
moderated was called Harm Reduction Conf.
If my memory serves correct, this is a heroin
maintence place too 😉
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 10:07:52 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Howard,
Many thanks for the link. Personally, I do not agree with Dr Cohen’s
viewpoint. I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered
analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one’s time on this planet,
(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard to
the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation and
I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the
individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary
life. Even worse, it’s a fucking drag. That’s my position!
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 29 January 2005 13:38
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
In a message dated 1/29/05 6:04:03 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people
that respond
but basically all I have said is that I support the German government in
its moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like
dragging people
out of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this
it’s like,
I’m a nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ
knows what. To
me,
to be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the
psyche has to
the idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time.
People
want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit more
rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s about
to fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
Hi Nick,
Did you read Peter Cohen’s writing in the HRC ibogaine roundtable
report.
Peter got dana quite upset but, I think his writing may be
directed more at you.
What do you think of his thoughts?
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
(see ibogaine roundtable review and the link to his full article
from there
if you wish). It seems to me that over the years you have gone
from a “world
is doom” to a “world should be controlled” philosophy and that of
course is not
an unnatural course or events. It is just that that control
concept in the
US with prohibition and our prison industrial complex gives me a lot of
concern. And I guess it is not just the US but, I am here.
Howard
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Bradblog
Date: January 29, 2005 at 10:04:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks to Dr. Tom, for posting this…you know, I
didn’t see these protests covered in the media. I’m
willing to admit I might have missed the coverage,
but….
I particularly like the sign that read “War is
late-term abortion…”
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 9:50:11 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 29 January 2005 13:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man.
Yeah, this is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can
write anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s
what’s needed.<
Francis recently wrote some comment along the lines of “I can’t believe
someone who has taken ibogaine is still promoting drug use,” or something
along these lines, and you take the position that by taking
ibogaine there
is one and just one result expected or valid- all other responces on the
part of the individual who took/takes ibogaine are not valid or worth
listening to if it isn’t “I want nothing to do with drugs now,”
or “my life
should now be an open book to all and sundry and they should behave and
think like me or the state should be allowed to force them to do
so,” again,
Hey Preston,
I would be grateful if you could explain to me how I am saying these things!
I don’t believe I have said such a thing. I think it would be great if you
could paraphrase your insights with something like “How I interpret what
Nick is saying is……” or “How I interpret what you are saying is….” Can
we please go for that? As it is, it seems to me you interpret what I’m
saying in any way that allows you to then critcize that interpretation and
insinuate I am somehow a fascist or whatever. I don’t find this so exciting
really. And I don’t think it does anything for meaningful communication.
Nothing that you have written above is anything that I have ever said, to
the best of my knowledge, and it certainly isn’t my opinion.
something along these lines. (I mean, now you’re defining
this list for
crying out loud.
Well, I said it was the IBOGAINE list. I said it wasn’t heroin-excuses.net.
Is this wrong?
Boy, you’ve got a lot of fucking nerve. How is what I’m
talking about, or anyone else for that matter, any less about
ibogaine than
what you are or what you would like to discuss? I mean it, what the hell
does that mean, “this is an ibogaine list, not
heroin-excuses.net?” Did you
miss the post about how I am not taking heroin? Even were I, so what? How
would my discussing my thoughts about addiction, opiates and more on this
list make it not about ibogaine- insert bad word here- ?)
I’m really tired of this conversation actually. I’m tired of reading
from you Nick that my reactions and my thoughts about ibogaine
aren’t valid
and are somehow incorrect because I’m of the opinion that we can (and
should) chose to use ibogaine as we will as individuals, not as
some others
want me/us to do so.
Well, I expect I would be tired of reading that too, had someone said it
repeatedly to me. But I haven’t actually said it even once, as far as I’m
aware. Man, seems to me you just wanna argue with yourself or something.
I cannot say I’m sorry I’m not getting the
same things
from my ibogaine experiences that you are, because I’m not, not in the
slightest. I did get (and am still getting, even in part from
this here list
for crying out loud- and for that matter was even before I tried
ibogaine)
quite a lot out of my experiences and am firmly of the opinion that it
should be as available as any and all other drugs (though, as with
everything, I’m sure I could find exceptions to this notion, both
about ibo
and about the other drugs), that it definitely was a very spiritual
experience that gave me a lot of hope and clarity, and I admit to
feeling a
lot of confusion about things in general.
But then, I will probably always feel confusion about things
in general
Nick, Francis and all. I am not someone who can find it in
himself to ever
say “my way or the highway,” or “my way by force you unenlightened types”
nor “I know what’s best and wish everyone would do it my way because gee
wouldn’t the world be nice and happy when full of Prestons,” or anything
that remotely implies I have “THE” answer.
I’m a pretty tolerant person Nick, which is why I have so
much trouble
with the notion you appear to be promoting. I’d never ever come at people
the way you are, and figure I’d live in a sheltered community
where everyone
else is just like me or striving to be, too if I felt like you about the
world and my place in it.
But you’re welcome to it. Just don’t try to force me ever to
your view.
You can call me a junky or whatever to-you-derogatory you’d like, I don’t
mind. I will continue to be happily in love, writing and publishing and
living and getting the most I can out of my life, helping to do
my part to
prove that no matter what drug or non-drug we each chose to use
that we are
all capable of loving and being loved and don’t deserve jail.
You do what you want.
Preston, I am NOT trying to upset you. That is not my intention. And I have
not suggested that you or anyone else should be sent to jail. I have spoken
of using ibogaine and rehab in a therapeutic community and of allowing
governments to coerce socially errant addicts into this mode of treatment.
I’m fine if you don’t want to push your opinions out on people. For me, part
of my own development is that I am becoming more pro-active. I am becoming
more aware of how I can make change in the world and that is what I am
learning to do. And I am happy to take feedback. And I am aware that
sometimes good intentions in this area can sometimes change into
neo-fascism. But I am not saying you should be put in prison and I am not
forcing anyone to take my viewpoint. I am just writing emails, stating my
thoughts and opinions. I would be great if you could see that, then I’m sure
we could become closer.
with love
Nick
What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take all
their problems away without them having to move their whole
position in life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.<
What I also get out of your writing is that you imply and assume
a hell of a
lot about other people with no justification whatsoever. I’ve…
Ah, fuck it, this is ridiculous.
Why am I bothering wasting my time on you Nick? This is utterly pointless.
You continue doing what you are, I’ll do the same and stop wasting my
precious time arguing this with you.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 8:53:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s needed.<
Francis recently wrote some comment along the lines of “I can’t believe someone who has taken ibogaine is still promoting drug use,” or something along these lines, and you take the position that by taking ibogaine there is one and just one result expected or valid- all other responces on the part of the individual who took/takes ibogaine are not valid or worth listening to if it isn’t “I want nothing to do with drugs now,” or “my life should now be an open book to all and sundry and they should behave and think like me or the state should be allowed to force them to do so,” again, something along these lines. (I mean, now you’re defining this list for crying out loud. Boy, you’ve got a lot of fucking nerve. How is what I’m talking about, or anyone else for that matter, any less about ibogaine than what you are or what you would like to discuss? I mean it, what the hell does that mean, “this is an ibogaine list, not heroin-excuses.net?” Did you miss the post about how I am not taking heroin? Even were I, so what? How would my discussing my thoughts about addiction, opiates and more on this list make it not about ibogaine- insert bad word here- ?)
I’m really tired of this conversation actually. I’m tired of reading from you Nick that my reactions and my thoughts about ibogaine aren’t valid and are somehow incorrect because I’m of the opinion that we can (and should) chose to use ibogaine as we will as individuals, not as some others want me/us to do so. I cannot say I’m sorry I’m not getting the same things from my ibogaine experiences that you are, because I’m not, not in the slightest. I did get (and am still getting, even in part from this here list for crying out loud- and for that matter was even before I tried ibogaine) quite a lot out of my experiences and am firmly of the opinion that it should be as available as any and all other drugs (though, as with everything, I’m sure I could find exceptions to this notion, both about ibo and about the other drugs), that it definitely was a very spiritual experience that gave me a lot of hope and clarity, and I admit to feeling a lot of confusion about things in general.
But then, I will probably always feel confusion about things in general Nick, Francis and all. I am not someone who can find it in himself to ever say “my way or the highway,” or “my way by force you unenlightened types” nor “I know what’s best and wish everyone would do it my way because gee wouldn’t the world be nice and happy when full of Prestons,” or anything that remotely implies I have “THE” answer.
I’m a pretty tolerant person Nick, which is why I have so much trouble with the notion you appear to be promoting. I’d never ever come at people the way you are, and figure I’d live in a sheltered community where everyone else is just like me or striving to be, too if I felt like you about the world and my place in it.
But you’re welcome to it. Just don’t try to force me ever to your view. You can call me a junky or whatever to-you-derogatory you’d like, I don’t mind. I will continue to be happily in love, writing and publishing and living and getting the most I can out of my life, helping to do my part to prove that no matter what drug or non-drug we each chose to use that we are all capable of loving and being loved and don’t deserve jail.
You do what you want.
What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take all
their problems away without them having to move their whole position in life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.<
What I also get out of your writing is that you imply and assume a hell of a lot about other people with no justification whatsoever. I’ve…
Ah, fuck it, this is ridiculous.
Why am I bothering wasting my time on you Nick? This is utterly pointless.
You continue doing what you are, I’ll do the same and stop wasting my precious time arguing this with you.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:03 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 28 January 2005 01:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Francis………. you’re being a grouch 😉
Hi Nick, you haven’t posted too much in the last year
but aren’t you one of the people who might have a lot
of personal feelings about drug addiction due to one
of your family members being a junkie? I’m sorry I
don’t remember if it was your son or your brother, but
there was someone in your family youve dosed with
ibogaine a lot of times and no matter what you tried
or wanted them to do they would not get clean.
In spite of all your self awareness, isn’t it possible
you might have a teeny little bit of anger at them?
😉
Hi Carla,
Yes, it’s true, my adoptive brother Ken has had a long term heroin problem
in the past and in the late 90s I tried to help him with ibogaine.
Currently, he claims to be clean but I have my doubts, personally. Yes, I
did use to get very pissed off when I tried to communicate with him and felt
I couldn’t really get through to him. However, this doesn’t really drive me
crazy or anything, though it does still upset me at times. I mean, long
before he was a druggie he was spaced out and I learned to find people that
could communicate with me and not just put it on him that HE had to change.
Though for him, it’s true I also think it would be fine if the government
took a stronger stance. And, yeah, if it happened, he would ring me up and
tell me they’re being nazis or whatever.
Really, to be honest, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from these dialogues
about just where people who are coming toward ibogaine actually are in terms
of coming towards getting off drugs. Now that ibogaine’s getting bigger in
the UK, I’ve people on at me daily to help them get it (I run a website on
ibogaine). What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take all
their problems away without them having to move their whole position in life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.
Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people that respond
but basically all I have said is that I support the German government in its
moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like dragging people out
of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this it’s like, I’m a
nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ knows what. To me, to
be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the psyche has to the
idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time. People
want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit more
rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s about to
fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s needed.
With love
Nick
Am I wrong? I know Marc Emery used to deliver up these
20 page rants about why junkies are sick and potheads
are healthy. Couldn’t have had anything to do with his
son being a junkie 😉
Love to all, especially to everyone writing 15 angry
letters to the list each day! 🙂
Carla B
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Nick!!
> Your post generate a lot of turmoil
> 🙂
> That all good, I mean this is free mailing list. You
> have few people
> who are
> acting like they own the list and want to control or
> censure everything
> that
> they don’t like.
>
> To keep simple :I have made a small list of taboo
> subjects:
>
> TTR subjects: when someone try to explain an addict
> how to Take Total
> Responsability for his own action.
> Spiritual subject : rejection by some of the
> contribuitors of anything
> relating to the spiritual realm.
> Help subjects: ” don’t try to help me , I am doing
> good, let me shoot my
> dope ”
> AA and NA subjects: ” thoses f……g hugers”
> Character defects : ” don’t tell me I am selfish,
> dishonest, lazy…ect
> ”
> Judgment : ” nothing is wrong, nothing is bad…. ”
> Restriction or control of drugs availability.
>
> Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to
> make new friends
> and
> eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
> You should seriously take in consideration this
> bag of tools
> Drugz
> Music ( avoid classical and religious )
> Movies
> How much I use to shoot
> Self justification
> You scrach my back, I scrach your back
> Flattery
> Drugz pop culture.
> Atheism
> Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and
> organizations,
> specialy
> religious.
>
> God bless
> Francis
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>
>
> > Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for
> while, and whether
> > I’m
> > like
> > totally off for writing like this, and I realized
> I’m totally fine with
> it.
> > If the German government wants to push addicts who
> are fucking up a bit
> > harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
> >
> > And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone
> else who feels
> completely
> > opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you
> towards their viewpoint by
> > force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to
> force other people to
> > your
> > viewpoint Nick?
> >
> >
> >
> > Peace and love,
> > Preston Peet
> >
> > “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
> enlightenment is
> > often
> > mistaken for madness”
> > Richard Davenport-Hines
> >
> > ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
> > Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> > Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
> Guide to Drugs”
> > Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide
> to Ancient
> Civilizations,
> > Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
> > Cont. High Times mag/.com
> > Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> > Columnist New York Waste
> > Etc.
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
> > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> —–Original Message—–
> >>> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
> >>> Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
> >>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
> fascism
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days
> are
> >>> numbered, man.<
> >>>
> >>> I’m not taking heroin.
> >>> Though there have been a couple times over the
> last few years
> >>> where I have
> >>> relented and bought a bag or three, those times
> were extremely
> >>> few and far
> >>> between and are a while past now. Not a year
> yet, but over half at
> least,
> >>> probably closer to nine months or so since last
> time I did that.
> >>>
> >>>> If you find
> >>> these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize
> that – you get scared
> >>> by
> >>> emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into
> looking harder at
> >>> yourself. It
> >>> provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an
> aware guy. Check it
> >>> out.<
> >>>
> >>> You’re missing the point Nick.
> >>> The scary thing about your emails is that you
> seem to be serious,
> >>> that you
> >>> support forcing other people to submit to your
> views by force. This
> >>> is
> >>> mostly scary to me because I’m just now
> discovering this, and now I’m
> >>> concerned because I don’t know what I’ve
> divulged on list you may
> >>> have read
> >>> and will one day decide to rat me or someone
> else out over
> >>> because you think
> >>> it would do us good to have someone drag us out
> of our homes and
> >>> teach
> us
> >>> the better, or your way anyway. That’s what
> scares me, not
> >>> looking harder at
> >>> myself. I don’t have a single problem with that
> particular issue,
> >>> of looking
> >>> deep and hard within myself, and that you might
> think I do have
> >>> issue with
> >>> that is another thing that leaves me shaking my
> head, considering
> >>> just how
> >>> open I am and always have been about myself and
> my feelings and
> >>> emotions on
> >>> this list. The reaction is notr the looking
> inside myself, it’s
> >>> you thinking
> >>> it’s ok to force others to your way of living
> and thinking. That’s a
> >>> terrible way to go through life in my opinion,
> and I’m glad I’m
> >>> not somehow
> >>> under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve
> so far escaped
> >>> and hope I
> >>> continue to do so for a long, long time.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Hi Preston,
> >>
> >> Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and
> shout for 10 minutes
> this
> >> morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for
> while, and whether I’m
> >> like
> >> totally off for writing like this, and I realized
> I’m totally fine
> >> with
> >> it.
> >> If the German government wants to push addicts
> who are fucking up a
> >> bit
> >> harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
> >>
> >> love
> >>
> >> Nick
> >>
> >>
> >>> Peace and love,
> >>> Preston
> >>>
> >>> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
> for enlightenment is
> often
> >>> mistaken for madness”
> >>> Richard Davenport-Hines
> >>>
> >>
> >>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 8:37:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/29/05 6:04:03 AM, nick227@tiscali.co.uk writes:
Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people that respond
but basically all I have said is that I support the German government in
its moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like dragging people
out of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this it’s like,
I’m a nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ knows what. To
me,
to be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the psyche has to
the idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time.
People
want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit more
rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s about
to fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
Hi Nick,
Did you read Peter Cohen’s writing in the HRC ibogaine roundtable report.
Peter got dana quite upset but, I think his writing may be directed more at you.
What do you think of his thoughts? http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
(see ibogaine roundtable review and the link to his full article from there
if you wish). It seems to me that over the years you have gone from a “world
is doom” to a “world should be controlled” philosophy and that of course is not
an unnatural course or events. It is just that that control concept in the
US with prohibition and our prison industrial complex gives me a lot of
concern. And I guess it is not just the US but, I am here.
Howard
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From: “FakePlacebo” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Miss Iboga
Date: January 29, 2005 at 7:34:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Julie,
Yep! my sleeping pattern is not very well, I use to wake up early without no
reason I miss sunday mornings sleep. But I feel happy. I started to feel
happy after Iboga (first time in my life) but sometimes I feel like I’m late
or I missed something that I don’t know what it is. :))
I have to find a economical way to smoke joint without tobacoo because I
gived up smoking cigs also. There is very hard to find hush pipe in Turkey.
Do you have any idea that how can I find hush pipe and filters?
I want to mailing with you off the list. Could you give me another mail
address wich is working for my mails.
Best Regards
FakePlacebo
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Miss Iboga
Hey FP,
No, I didn’t get them…weird…So glad to hear you’re
doing well. How do you feel, overall?
My boyfriend and I are planning a trip to either
Mexico or Macchu Picchu…I love Latin America. It’s
great to actually have money to spend on things other
than dope, like travelling.
How are your sleeping patterns? Are they normal? I’m
still waking up in the middle of the night, for no
apparent reason.
Talk to you soon,
Julie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 29, 2005 at 7:05:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 27 January 2005 17:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
.
Listen ‘ere folks, Nick is alright…..a wee misdirected, but he will
grow
out of it.
The reason we all go grey when we age ….and evolve through personal
experience…is because it helps us understand that there just
aren’t black
and white answers anymore …….shades of grey…..different
prespectives.
I think someone should volunteer to go ‘underground’ and check out
Nick’s
peace and love camp and report back to the group.
…….Ken
YES! This would be a great idea! How about you, Ken?
Love
Nick
Thank you for the offer Nick, but I am afraid that I might be too
disruptive. If I ‘excorcised’ my need to just yell and yell to cleanse
myself (aka child’s tantrum) I might just become so enthralled with the
liberating feeling that I might feel the need to compliment the therapy by
throttling some therapist…..just a therapeutic throttle of course….to
free up the child within me.
Your new age nazi attitude has obviously shaken up some of your
peers here.
I would have thought that iboga would have a calmed you. Obviously
not….think about it Nick, you have to scream out loud like a 7 year old
boy and you want to force change on those who don’t see things as you do.
It looks like classic symptoms of severe arrested development ..to me.
I admit that I do get a wee frustrated with the closed minded. I went
through the recent ‘3 month war on drugs’ in Thailand where 2300
drug users
were systematically rounded up and shot. Everyone was ratting on
each other
as they were in fear of their lives. People were ratting on straight folk
who they just didn’t like. The cops were put on a quota
system…they had to
capture/kill x number of suspects or they were fired. Thousands
were rounded
up and forced into army camp ‘detox’ centres…except the army
did not know
how to detox people….so they caged them until the folks were believed to
be ‘clean’. This was just a year and a half ago Nick.
I have a new word for you to meditate on…………………empathy.
…..Ken
Ken, man, I am fine with empathy. But it is not the only tool in therapy.
There’s come a point where, if you care, you have to not just sit by
empathising while people are destroying themselves. You can start to take a
position, this is also possible. This is what I am learning to do.
About Thailand, I did not know that this was happening. Can I ask you, is it
your position that you believe that in Europe and the US a simiar thing
would happen? Is that what you genuinely believe? If “Yes” then I think it’s
fine you resist, if you are in genuine fear of your life. Who wouldn’t.
Love
Nick
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 6:52:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 28 January 2005 01:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Francis………. you’re being a grouch 😉
Hi Nick, you haven’t posted too much in the last year
but aren’t you one of the people who might have a lot
of personal feelings about drug addiction due to one
of your family members being a junkie? I’m sorry I
don’t remember if it was your son or your brother, but
there was someone in your family youve dosed with
ibogaine a lot of times and no matter what you tried
or wanted them to do they would not get clean.
In spite of all your self awareness, isn’t it possible
you might have a teeny little bit of anger at them?
😉
Hi Carla,
Yes, it’s true, my adoptive brother Ken has had a long term heroin problem
in the past and in the late 90s I tried to help him with ibogaine.
Currently, he claims to be clean but I have my doubts, personally. Yes, I
did use to get very pissed off when I tried to communicate with him and felt
I couldn’t really get through to him. However, this doesn’t really drive me
crazy or anything, though it does still upset me at times. I mean, long
before he was a druggie he was spaced out and I learned to find people that
could communicate with me and not just put it on him that HE had to change.
Though for him, it’s true I also think it would be fine if the government
took a stronger stance. And, yeah, if it happened, he would ring me up and
tell me they’re being nazis or whatever.
Really, to be honest, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from these dialogues
about just where people who are coming toward ibogaine actually are in terms
of coming towards getting off drugs. Now that ibogaine’s getting bigger in
the UK, I’ve people on at me daily to help them get it (I run a website on
ibogaine). What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take all
their problems away without them having to move their whole position in life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.
Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people that respond
but basically all I have said is that I support the German government in its
moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like dragging people out
of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this it’s like, I’m a
nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ knows what. To me, to
be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the psyche has to the
idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time. People
want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit more
rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s about to
fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s needed.
With love
Nick
Am I wrong? I know Marc Emery used to deliver up these
20 page rants about why junkies are sick and potheads
are healthy. Couldn’t have had anything to do with his
son being a junkie 😉
Love to all, especially to everyone writing 15 angry
letters to the list each day! 🙂
Carla B
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Nick!!
Your post generate a lot of turmoil
🙂
That all good, I mean this is free mailing list. You
have few people
who are
acting like they own the list and want to control or
censure everything
that
they don’t like.
To keep simple :I have made a small list of taboo
subjects:
TTR subjects: when someone try to explain an addict
how to Take Total
Responsability for his own action.
Spiritual subject : rejection by some of the
contribuitors of anything
relating to the spiritual realm.
Help subjects: ” don’t try to help me , I am doing
good, let me shoot my
dope ”
AA and NA subjects: ” thoses f……g hugers”
Character defects : ” don’t tell me I am selfish,
dishonest, lazy…ect
”
Judgment : ” nothing is wrong, nothing is bad…. ”
Restriction or control of drugs availability.
Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to
make new friends
and
eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
You should seriously take in consideration this
bag of tools
Drugz
Music ( avoid classical and religious )
Movies
How much I use to shoot
Self justification
You scrach my back, I scrach your back
Flattery
Drugz pop culture.
Atheism
Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and
organizations,
specialy
religious.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether
I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who
are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone
else who feels
completely
opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you
towards their viewpoint by
force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to
force other people to
your
viewpoint Nick?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide
to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism
Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days
are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the
last few years
where I have
relented and bought a bag or three, those times
were extremely
few and far
between and are a while past now. Not a year
yet, but over half at
least,
probably closer to nine months or so since last
time I did that.
If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize
that – you get scared
by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into
looking harder at
yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an
aware guy. Check it
out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you
seem to be serious,
that you
support forcing other people to submit to your
views by force. This
is
mostly scary to me because I’m just now
discovering this, and now I’m
concerned because I don’t know what I’ve
divulged on list you may
have read
and will one day decide to rat me or someone
else out over
because you think
it would do us good to have someone drag us out
of our homes and
teach
us
the better, or your way anyway. That’s what
scares me, not
looking harder at
myself. I don’t have a single problem with that
particular issue,
of looking
deep and hard within myself, and that you might
think I do have
issue with
that is another thing that leaves me shaking my
head, considering
just how
open I am and always have been about myself and
my feelings and
emotions on
this list. The reaction is notr the looking
inside myself, it’s
you thinking
it’s ok to force others to your way of living
and thinking. That’s a
terrible way to go through life in my opinion,
and I’m glad I’m
not somehow
under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve
so far escaped
and hope I
continue to do so for a long, long time.
Hi Preston,
Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and
shout for 10 minutes
this
morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine
with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts
who are fucking up a
bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 6:11:52 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: jon [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
Sent: 27 January 2005 19:43
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
I know it comforts you to make me out to be Hitler or something but
actually
all I’m saying is that I think addiction is a drag and that for
governments
to take a more pro-active stance against it is fine by me. There are now
much better tools to fight opiate addiction available and it is
my belief
that it’s fine to use them. Ibogaine detox backed up by 6 months in a
therapeutic community rehab, I think it would be a great start.
well, i can’t speak for other people, but i’m not making you out to be
hitler.
but, saying that government should coerce people into “positive” change in
their lives IS periously close to what the nazis did to the jews, gypsies,
homosexuals, disabled, and other undesirables of their time. there is a
significant difference between saying government should provide the
necessary tools to address addiction and saying that they should coerce
people into getting “help”. the prior is merciful, the latter is
totalitarian.
Jon, if you can’t tell the difference between coercing junkies into detox
and rehab and gassing people and pulling all their teeth out then it is
going to be a little difficult, I feel, for us to really communicate. It’s
not the slippery slope to genocide. No one is suggesting killing junkies.
Could it rather be that the idea of you having to do rehab scares you? If
so, that’s fine. I’m sure pretty much anyone would be scared by it, and
that’s ok. But, if that is the case then please say so, and stop going on
about nazis.
with love
Nick
which gets to the fundamental point, government has no business telling
anyone who isn’t an active threat to other people how to live their lives.
any deviation from that begins a descent on the slippery slope of state
sponsered bigotry, which can often lead to state sponsered genocide.
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 29, 2005 at 6:03:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 28 January 2005 01:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Francis………. you’re being a grouch 😉
Hi Nick, you haven’t posted too much in the last year
but aren’t you one of the people who might have a lot
of personal feelings about drug addiction due to one
of your family members being a junkie? I’m sorry I
don’t remember if it was your son or your brother, but
there was someone in your family youve dosed with
ibogaine a lot of times and no matter what you tried
or wanted them to do they would not get clean.
In spite of all your self awareness, isn’t it possible
you might have a teeny little bit of anger at them?
😉
Hi Carla,
Yes, it’s true, my adoptive brother Ken has had a long term heroin problem
in the past and in the late 90s I tried to help him with ibogaine.
Currently, he claims to be clean but I have my doubts, personally. Yes, I
did use to get very pissed off when I tried to communicate with him and felt
I couldn’t really get through to him. However, this doesn’t really drive me
crazy or anything, though it does still upset me at times. I mean, long
before he was a druggie he was spaced out and I learned to find people that
could communicate with me and not just put it on him that HE had to change.
Though for him, it’s true I also think it would be fine if the government
took a stronger stance. And, yeah, if it happened, he would ring me up and
tell me they’re being nazis or whatever.
Really, to be honest, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from these dialogues
about just where people who are coming toward ibogaine actually are in terms
of coming towards getting off drugs. Now that ibogaine’s getting bigger in
the UK, I’ve people on at me daily to help them get it (I run a website on
ibogaine). What I see more and more is that a lot (by no means all) of the
people that ibogaine attracts just want something that’s going to take all
their problems away without them having to move their whole position in life
even one millimetre. Well, in my experience it’s not impossible that could
happen but it is relatively unlikely.
Same thing in these dialogues. Granted it’s only a few people that respond
but basically all I have said is that I support the German government in its
moves to curb addiction and that sometimes I feel like dragging people out
of their homes to participate in life a bit more. From this it’s like, I’m a
nazi or it’s to do with the jews in the war or Christ knows what. To me, to
be honest, this is just the basic layer of resistance the psyche has to the
idea of change. I see it when I’m doing therapist work all the time. People
want to shoot me up with gear, well, so what, I could do with a bit more
rest at times anyway. Preston’s there shaking his head so much it’s about to
fall off or something, yeah well that’s life.
And hey, Francis, I like what you write. You have guts, man. Yeah, this is
the IBOGAINE list, not heroin-excuses.net. It’s true you can write anything
you want on this list but if you want to take a stand on addiction in a
meaningful way, then you have to be able to take a bit of shit. Keep doing
what you’re doing, guy, cause you’ve got the guts and that’s what’s needed.
With love
Nick
Am I wrong? I know Marc Emery used to deliver up these
20 page rants about why junkies are sick and potheads
are healthy. Couldn’t have had anything to do with his
son being a junkie 😉
Love to all, especially to everyone writing 15 angry
letters to the list each day! 🙂
Carla B
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Nick!!
Your post generate a lot of turmoil
🙂
That all good, I mean this is free mailing list. You
have few people
who are
acting like they own the list and want to control or
censure everything
that
they don’t like.
To keep simple :I have made a small list of taboo
subjects:
TTR subjects: when someone try to explain an addict
how to Take Total
Responsability for his own action.
Spiritual subject : rejection by some of the
contribuitors of anything
relating to the spiritual realm.
Help subjects: ” don’t try to help me , I am doing
good, let me shoot my
dope ”
AA and NA subjects: ” thoses f……g hugers”
Character defects : ” don’t tell me I am selfish,
dishonest, lazy…ect
”
Judgment : ” nothing is wrong, nothing is bad…. ”
Restriction or control of drugs availability.
Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to
make new friends
and
eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
You should seriously take in consideration this
bag of tools
Drugz
Music ( avoid classical and religious )
Movies
How much I use to shoot
Self justification
You scrach my back, I scrach your back
Flattery
Drugz pop culture.
Atheism
Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and
organizations,
specialy
religious.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether
I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who
are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone
else who feels
completely
opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you
towards their viewpoint by
force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to
force other people to
your
viewpoint Nick?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide
to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism
Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days
are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the
last few years
where I have
relented and bought a bag or three, those times
were extremely
few and far
between and are a while past now. Not a year
yet, but over half at
least,
probably closer to nine months or so since last
time I did that.
If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize
that – you get scared
by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into
looking harder at
yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an
aware guy. Check it
out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you
seem to be serious,
that you
support forcing other people to submit to your
views by force. This
is
mostly scary to me because I’m just now
discovering this, and now I’m
concerned because I don’t know what I’ve
divulged on list you may
have read
and will one day decide to rat me or someone
else out over
because you think
it would do us good to have someone drag us out
of our homes and
teach
us
the better, or your way anyway. That’s what
scares me, not
looking harder at
myself. I don’t have a single problem with that
particular issue,
of looking
deep and hard within myself, and that you might
think I do have
issue with
that is another thing that leaves me shaking my
head, considering
just how
open I am and always have been about myself and
my feelings and
emotions on
this list. The reaction is notr the looking
inside myself, it’s
you thinking
it’s ok to force others to your way of living
and thinking. That’s a
terrible way to go through life in my opinion,
and I’m glad I’m
not somehow
under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve
so far escaped
and hope I
continue to do so for a long, long time.
Hi Preston,
Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and
shout for 10 minutes
this
morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine
with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts
who are fucking up a
bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine]-Provider question: Free will vs. Addiction
Date: January 29, 2005 at 3:48:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Team Mindvox:
I’ve enjoyed the concepts lately squeezed from Preston and Nick’s snarly
differences over libertarian defenses of junkie lifestyle choices. Both are
great writers and probably lovely people. Do the providers have input on Ibo
as treatment for addiction to help return users to “health”, versus Ibo as
cool tool to help user down regulate freely chosen opiates as pain meds? I
can see Preston’s point about “nobody gonna mess with my choice to use
because I’m free” (sorry for abbreviated words in mouth, here), and I can
see Nick’s provocative fascist wake-up call to pull the covers off all the
self medicated sleepy minions of Morphia. That side sounds pretty wicked and
unpleasant, images of cops and home invasions roll out over network TV all
the time. The free will junkie lifestyle isn’t exactly a picnic however.
The issue of addiction versus free will gets right to the central vein
(sorry, just had to..) of Ibogaine use. I like the practice of providing
this tool to people who want out of their addiction, and it seems unique and
powerful in it’s value for that. Do you providers take on clients who are
not really looking for a way out of addiction? Maybe the mom or girlfriend
are ragging on people but, naw, they really just like that dope..”
Speaking only for myself, I can’t see why it would be worth my time and
energy to help the junkie have a better commercial relationship to his
chosen pursuits. Yes, I bet Ibo would help a lot if used for that, but it
would feel like such a wasted tool for liberation…OK, help the opiate feel
better for a while, yawn, whatever…
Central question: Is addiction a disease or illness that providers hope to
treat? Or is free will use of great pain killers and ways to get high some
inherent right my neighborhood and I need to fight to protect? As long as
people aren’t in my face they should do what they want to pursue and even
catch every happiness they can. No doubt. The Ibo list of PC thought from
Francis was precious. Too true.
Out here west of NYC, where gun control is a 4 inch group at 50 yards with
your one-handed pistol shot, the idea of a junkie’s rights to use gets a
little abstract. My libertarian beliefs are ok, but when the drug cartel
reps show up at your daughter’s high school prom, some of us get nervous and
tend to reach for something meaner than a good fence purchase. Dirty Harry
sold a lot of movies with the retribution schtick.
As for all the civil liberty issues brought out in the War on Drugs info,
there sure is a lot of sudden surprise and focus on the”dirty laundry” side
of the drug user “lifestyle”. Dirt sells, for sure, but isn’t it all
getting hard to be shocked and amazed for you grownups that addiction sucks?
Over 500 years since the Spanish Christian monarchs sent Columbus off to
eliminate everyone non Spanish and Christian to generate revenue, and the
war has been pretty world wide and constant for your mind, spirit, and soul
ever since. Addiction has been a favorite controller tool for a long time.
I don’t know the experience of opiate addiction, thankfully, and no, I’ll
pass on those mashed potatoes too. For the proud, freethinker junkies and
tweekers among us, does the free will model work for addiction or is there a
treatable illness there that loved ones might want to intervene with? When
do your decisions start to forfeit your claim to civil rights? Let me know.
Never mind the character jabs at me for asking, just come from your own
knowledge. As for the social critique of unaware drug policies, this war on
the drug user is just the sneak preview for what’s coming at us in Century
21, IMHO. Get clean, wake up, or don’t. Your choice. In the bright future
there will be a lot of available parking places, methinks.
I’m gone, thanks for reading.
Dr. Tom
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Date: January 28, 2005 at 8:43:22 PM EST
To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Hannah,
I am glad for you. I have replaced the ritualistic taking something (drugwise to be functional) with ritualistically taking something (foodwise to build back health and maintain enough sanity to function). Protein shake and veggie (mostly green) juice. Gives a head up as to if you’re currently mentally loosing it because you really are or because your blood sugars not right.
Ritualistic stuff at different times of day no matter what the theme, i feel, can help fill the void till you can fill the void or face the void or whatever….
I send you my best,
Martee
From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]-OT only a little-Inauguration photos
Date: January 28, 2005 at 8:30:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— tomo7 <tomo7@starband.net> wrote:
World-wide expressions of opinion…pretty colorful.
Helps to keep the wars
on drugs, terror, cancer, poverty, and aids all in
perspective, doesn’t it?
Kind of a universal war on human freedom is more
like it.
What response to Ibo therapy do you expect from
world controllers? How might
that response really Feel? Guess it depends on where
in the pile you dwell.
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001138.htm
Dr. Tom
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: “tomo7” <tomo7@starband.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine]-OT only a little-Inauguration photos
Date: January 28, 2005 at 7:59:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
World-wide expressions of opinion…pretty colorful. Helps to keep the wars on drugs, terror, cancer, poverty, and aids all in perspective, doesn’t it? Kind of a universal war on human freedom is more like it.
What response to Ibo therapy do you expect from world controllers? How might that response really Feel? Guess it depends on where in the pile you dwell.
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001138.htm
Dr. Tom
From: Klatuu02@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Craving cow-Preston
Date: January 28, 2005 at 7:51:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/28/2005 12:53:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
I’m vegitarian, but V is strict Vegan. She doesn’t do any dairy at all, but
doesn’t seem to crave milk. She uses that Silk stuff sometimes, and she
drinks Almond milk, Soy milk, and sometime even coconut milk, (and some
other non-milk milks too) but no cow’s milk.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
I would like
to add that the first major decision I made
was becoming a vegetarian… and now finally
I am vegan…no milk cravings at all and if I do
accidentally eat something that was supposed
to be dairy free and yet somehow has cheese or
milk product in it I know immediately… my stomach
cannot handle it anymore. It’s definitely a deconditioning
process– and cheese now tastes rather awful. The more
you know, also, about the cattle industry the less likely
you are going back. I would recommend the original poster
starting out vegetarian and, if you would like to
try the vegan diet, slowly tapering off the dairy products over time.
I have noticed a lot of people who jump straight into it
end up quitting it after a year…certain foods
can have a powerful hold over people. In my case I fasted
before I became vegetarian and I felt that worked nicely, however,
I would not recommend fasting for everyone.
From: Rachel Radhakrishna <rachelradha@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Preston
Date: January 28, 2005 at 6:47:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Me too. But I just heard this lyrical line, “the
underground is a place for moving not for hiding.” Or
something like that.
If I were a provider, and a facilitator, and I had
limited resources, I’d want the spore effect: maximum
distribution.
Jeff’s neck has spasmed and he wants numbness. I
wonder which came first – the guillotine message or
the neck spasms? I’m learning to respect the
collective consciousness of the Root Freaks. Tree of
life indeedy. But still, lots of stress around here.
Codependence sucks.
Personally I’m more worried about vampires and aliens
than the government, but maybe that’s because I think
the public sphere of the collective consensus still
thrives. It’s shakedown street, but the city’s got
heart.
No, no, maybe its just plain interdimensional
confusion. I’m no adept.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Preston
Date: January 28, 2005 at 6:33:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I hope I see you in the city in Feb.<
Likewise.
And V and the cats return some other equally warm love to you and yours.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Preston
Preston, I’ve been real busy and unable to keep up with the list lately and I
just read the note you sent Nick about the goon squad coming to his house and
shooting him full of scag. I’m still laughing. I think that ought to put some
perspective on things for him. Nick means well I think, he wants everyone to
feel as good as he does. I feel the same way, I just keep an open mind about
how people go about getting there. I hope I see you in the city in Feb. Love to
you, V, and the kitties Randy
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 28, 2005 at 5:41:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jon,
Yes, that is true,
Now, I’m thinking and thinking and I will write to you in private, soon.
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Jon Ludlam [mailto:seraphina@compuserve.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 27 januari 2005 13:27
Aan: INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Message text written by Sara
Iboga will reduce big amount of bacteria ( parasites) that are living in
symbiotic relationship with our bodies, which is another story but make
iboga worth trying to reduce the chance of total invasion of your body,
And bring you closer to your original “you” when born, who is different to
the “you”<
Sara,
On a number of occasions you have referred to you patients as ” Free from
sugar addiction.” If you have the time would you please explain in further
detail what you know of the freedom from sugar after using Ibogaine?
Respectfully Yours,
Jon Ludlam
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 28, 2005 at 3:53:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Try http://qhi.co.uk/ for ordering REAL l-tryptophan
and other goodies.
Brett
— jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
l-tryptophan is a better choice if you can get hold
of it, as 5-htp
doesn’t cross the brain barrier as readily. that
isn’t to say 5-htp is
useless necessarily, but tryptophan is certainly
more effective.
unfortuntely in the US, there was a bad batch that
came in a couple
decades ago, i forget exactly what it was
contaminated with, but
somethinng that led to eosinophilia-myalgia
syndrome, an auto-immune
disorder, that affected a number of people exposed
to it. being its
typical logicl self (note sarcasm) the US govt
banned the sale of pure
tryptophan supplements, and of course didn’t reverse
the ban when it came
out that it wasn’t the tryptophan itself that caused
the problems. you
can, however, still buy tryptophan legally in the US
in amino acid complex
supplements (ones that have multiple amino acids),
and in bulk.
5htp is good but I’ve been told that tit takes a
couple of weeks to have
an effect like most anti-depressants…
My understanding is that 5 htp is a precursor to
serotonin, but only if
you are eating right and getting the right
nutrients and such…
Another to try out maybe is L-Tryptophan…(5htp
is 5 hydroxytryptophan)
my local nutritionist informed me that this is a
more direct precursor to
serotonin and I did notice a significant
difference after taking this one
with a nice regiment of vitamins and minerals and
such. I take 500mg with
meals, 2-3 times a day… If it makes you sleepy
you can take 2 x 100mg at
bedtime.
I’ve taken 5htp before and noticed(maybe?) a
difference, but I recently
came off of effexor (a SNRI) while taking the
l-tryptophan, and I haven’t
felt clearer in a while… A nice change after
being on anti-depressants
for the last 2 years.
thats my 2 cents
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” >Reply-To:
ibogaine@mindvox.com >To:
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:23:58 +130>
Thank you for that
..and it would be nice for
you if you could find out
about taking both
perhaps ask the doc? We have
different names for
drugs >over here, so I have no idea what people
are talking about
unless I do a >websearch! Prozac is about the
only commonly named
drug. I take something >called Aropax, which
isnt as full on as
prozac and Ive had no side effects >apart from
sleep and appetite (but
hey, coffee and cigs get me thru the day! >Lol) >
Will look into this
5 htp
. > >Kirk > > > > _____ > >From:
thethird@myway.com
[mailto:thethird@myway.com] >Sent: Thursday, 27
January 2005 5:21 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]
5-HTP > > > > >Hey
Kirsty, >I take 100 mgs of 5htp in the morning and
I have noticed a
difference in the >levels of my anxiety and
depression. But, if I try
and remember back to when >I was on zoloft I would
say that zoloft made
more of a difference. In fact, >because I get such
bad panic attacks
during school I am thinking about going >back on
something like zoloft,
at least until I get settled back into the
routine of being in class.
I’m thinking about decreasing the 5htp, but am a
little nervous about
it, but I assume that I have to stop taking it if
I go >back on zoloft.
There was an interesting book out awhile ago about
5htp and >it
explained how much to take for certain problems,
but I can’t remember
the >name of it. I will try looking for it, and I
can look something up
in it if >there is any info that you’d like to
know. > > > > > >— On
Tue 01/25, Kirsty Sutherland < captkirk@kol.co.nz
wrote: > >From:
Kirsty Sutherland [mailto: captkirk@kol.co.nz]
To:
ibogaine@mindvox.com >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005
14:57:38 +1300 >Subject:
RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP > >Thank you muchly…will
look into it (for
depression at the mo…) >:o) >Kirk >
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com] >Sent:
Wednesday, 26
January 2005 7:04 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine]
5-HTP > >hi Kirk, > >Here is a link to a short,
concise description of
5HTP: >http://www.biopsychiatry.com/5-htp.htm >
5-HTP is the chemical
precursor to serotonin. I took >one capsule about
24 hours after my
treatment, and >could swear I felt some of the
Ibogaine’s effects come
back. > >Julie > > >
__________________________________ >Do you
Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail
SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > >
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— >Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG
Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database:
265.6.5 – Release Date:
12/26/2004 > > >– >Internal Virus Database is
out-of-date. >Checked by
AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.302 / Virus
Database: 265.6.5 – Release
Date: 12/26/2004 > > > >
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_____ > >No banners. No pop-ups. No
kidding. >Make My
Way your home on the Web – HYPERLINK
“http://www.myway.com”
\nhttp://www.myway.com > >– >Internal Virus
Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.302 /
Virus Database: 265.6.5
– Release Date: 12/26/2004 > > >– >Internal Virus
Database is
out-of-date. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version:
7.0.302 / Virus
Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004 >
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Craving cow-Preston
Date: January 28, 2005 at 3:52:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m vegitarian, but V is strict Vegan. She doesn’t do any dairy at all, but doesn’t seem to crave milk. She uses that Silk stuff sometimes, and she drinks Almond milk, Soy milk, and sometime even coconut milk, (and some other non-milk milks too) but no cow’s milk.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Craving cow-Preston
Preston,
I was wondering: are you vegan or just vegetarian?
Has being vegan/veggie made you feel better? I am
seriously considering the vegan lifestyle, but I
really really love my cheeses and yoguarts.
If you’re vegan, do you get milk cravings from time to
time?
cheers,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 28, 2005 at 3:48:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
for their own betterment of course, because they don’t know any better and would need a Bush (or someone who thinks like him) to set them straight.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Re: Thailand executions.
This is VERY disturbing….and unsettling….I betcha
secretly GW Bush fantasizes about rounding up all
druggies, gays/lesbians, and any other ‘subversive’
types, and going postal on their asses…
Julie
__________________________________________________
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From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine Roundtable Report
Date: January 28, 2005 at 2:43:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please add my name to the thanks being given here.
Where would we be without this valuable information? I’m
talking about this list in and of itself and the people who
are sharing experiences with ibogaine as well as other
experiences. I have learned so much and I imagine there
are others who can say the same thing.
ann
think@francomm.com
———————————————–
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine Roundtable Report
Thanks for writing all this Howard it’s neat to be
able to have a view of what happened and who said
what
I second that..thanks, Howard! You rule!
Julie
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Craving cow-Preston
Date: January 28, 2005 at 2:37:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston,
I was wondering: are you vegan or just vegetarian?
Has being vegan/veggie made you feel better? I am
seriously considering the vegan lifestyle, but I
really really love my cheeses and yoguarts.
If you’re vegan, do you get milk cravings from time to
time?
cheers,
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine Roundtable Report
Date: January 28, 2005 at 2:23:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for writing all this Howard it’s neat to be
able to have a view of what happened and who said
what
I second that..thanks, Howard! You rule!
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 28, 2005 at 1:57:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Carla !!
You are right, I was grouchy 🙂
No, I don’t have anybody in my familly who was or
is a junkie.Something is
Hi Francis, I didn’t mean your family I was talking
about Nick’s son or brother maybe being a little of
the motivation for his view how all drug addicts
should be forced to deal with their issues even if
they don’t want to 😉
little bet provocative in my E-mail and I don’t
realy want to apologize for
this, even if I feel inconfortable with what I
wrote. A lot of people are
Why would you apologise? That’s the whole reason we
talk isn’t it, if everyone had the same opinion we
wouldn’t need to discuss anything.
and maybe in front of
theirs monitor reading this list that could means
for them salvation .
That’s one of the most cool things that has changed
here in the last years, it used to be more talking
about it but not it’s people talk about it and then
you see the same people get ibogaine and see what
happens to them. Big change in the last years 🙂
When , I read of a guy who is taking a five
years sober medaillon in
AA while shooting dope, that , honestly, pissed me
up!!!
Me too! That always upset me at the meetings, finding
out the someone who is talking about all their years
of clean time isn’t clean in the first place and then
months later the same person goes up and admits they
were lying about everything and gets another round of
applause. I stopped worrying about other people
because it didn’t help me.
Yes I know it isn’t popular but I am one of the people
who does go to 12 step meetings once in a while. I
don’t know what exactly it does for me but it does
something and once in a while I feel the need to go.
So I do 🙂 Most of all I think it remind me how glad
I am not to be stuck in addiction anymore and how
great it was to have ibogaine to get out of it 🙂 🙂
We should take care of the newcomers and stop to
sale ourselves out for
small psycological gratification . Most of the
contributors to the list are
people who already had the gift of an Ibo experience
but still romantized
drugs . I don’t see the point……
Sound like a 12 step meeting again 🙂 war stories,
war stories, war stories.
I don’t even think this is a 12 step attitude, I think
it’s being a person who did a lot of drugs. Everyone
talks about it and a lot of time it’s hard to tell the
diference between how sorry they are or how proud they
are of their sins 😉
I think everyone who has ever done drugs and stopped,
does this. I haven’t ever met anyone who didn’t. If
there is some other way of dealing with it besides
repressing everything and pretending it never happened
I haven’t figured it out.
God bless Carla
Francis
Thanks 🙂
Love
Carla B
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine Roundtable Report
Date: January 28, 2005 at 1:48:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for writing all this Howard it’s neat to be
able to have a view of what happened and who said what
🙂
Carla B
— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
A beta version of the ibogaine roundtable report of
the Dora Weiner
Foundation from the Harm Reduction Conference is now
available from,
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
The report consists of presentation reviews, written
reports and powerpoint
presentations. Presenters are Patrick Kroupa,
Jeffrey Kamlet, MD, Howard
Lotsof, Peter Cohen, Dana Beal, Dmitri Mugianis,
Valerie Mojeiko and Jon
Freedlander.
Index
Introduction
American Association for the Treatment of Opioid
Dependence conference
Certified Methadone Advocate (CMA) Training Course
Risk Management in the OTP
Hepatitis C Treatment: Support, Empowerment and
Education
Contingency Management
Analgesia in the Buprenorphine Maintained Patient
5th National Harm Reduction Conference
Pre-Conference Institute
Ethics and Clinical Harm Reduction
Junkies in the House of the Lord
Ibogaine Roundtable Overview
Written Presentations
PowerPoint Slide Presentations
Background Literature
Links
1. American Association for the Treatment of Opioid
Dependence
2. Harm Reduction Coalition
3. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates
4. Ibogaine Dossier
5. Cures-Not-Wars
6. Mindvox
7. Legal Action Center
8. National Advocates for Pregnant Women
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To Miss Iboga
Date: January 28, 2005 at 11:50:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey FP,
No, I didn’t get them…weird…So glad to hear you’re
doing well. How do you feel, overall?
My boyfriend and I are planning a trip to either
Mexico or Macchu Picchu…I love Latin America. It’s
great to actually have money to spend on things other
than dope, like travelling.
How are your sleeping patterns? Are they normal? I’m
still waking up in the middle of the night, for no
apparent reason.
Talk to you soon,
Julie
__________________________________________________
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 28, 2005 at 11:43:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Re: Thailand executions.
This is VERY disturbing….and unsettling….I betcha
secretly GW Bush fantasizes about rounding up all
druggies, gays/lesbians, and any other ‘subversive’
types, and going postal on their asses…
Julie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Preston
Date: January 28, 2005 at 9:29:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston, I’ve been real busy and unable to keep up with the list lately and I
just read the note you sent Nick about the goon squad coming to his house and
shooting him full of scag. I’m still laughing. I think that ought to put some
perspective on things for him. Nick means well I think, he wants everyone to
feel as good as he does. I feel the same way, I just keep an open mind about
how people go about getting there. I hope I see you in the city in Feb. Love to
you, V, and the kitties Randy
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] ibogaine Roundtable Report
Date: January 27, 2005 at 10:47:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
A beta version of the ibogaine roundtable report of the Dora Weiner
Foundation from the Harm Reduction Conference is now available from,
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
The report consists of presentation reviews, written reports and powerpoint
presentations. Presenters are Patrick Kroupa, Jeffrey Kamlet, MD, Howard
Lotsof, Peter Cohen, Dana Beal, Dmitri Mugianis, Valerie Mojeiko and Jon
Freedlander.
Index
Introduction
American Association for the Treatment of Opioid Dependence conference
Certified Methadone Advocate (CMA) Training Course
Risk Management in the OTP
Hepatitis C Treatment: Support, Empowerment and Education
Contingency Management
Analgesia in the Buprenorphine Maintained Patient
5th National Harm Reduction Conference
Pre-Conference Institute
Ethics and Clinical Harm Reduction
Junkies in the House of the Lord
Ibogaine Roundtable Overview
Written Presentations
PowerPoint Slide Presentations
Background Literature
Links
1. American Association for the Treatment of Opioid Dependence
2. Harm Reduction Coalition
3. National Alliance of Methadone Advocates
4. Ibogaine Dossier
5. Cures-Not-Wars
6. Mindvox
7. Legal Action Center
8. National Advocates for Pregnant Women
http://www.doraweiner.org/aatod_hrc.html
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 27, 2005 at 10:46:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Carla !!
You are right, I was grouchy 🙂
No, I don’t have anybody in my familly who was or is a junkie.Something is
little bet provocative in my E-mail and I don’t realy want to apologize for
this, even if I feel inconfortable with what I wrote. A lot of people are
lurking to this list for help and they should be able to express themselves
as they wish and not to be afraid to say what they think and how they feel.
No matter what, we should have the patience and the humility to accept
people as they are. Honesty should be the rule if we want to achieve a
“little positive something.”
People are freaking dying of this disease, right now and maybe in front of
theirs monitor reading this list that could means for them salvation .
When , I read of a guy who is taking a five years sober medaillon in
AA while shooting dope, that , honestly, pissed me up!!!
We should take care of the newcomers and stop to sale ourselves out for
small psycological gratification . Most of the contributors to the list are
people who already had the gift of an Ibo experience but still romantized
drugs . I don’t see the point……
It’s desesperating… and I say this out of love…
I thought…. what if my son will shoot dope.? What if my son took Ebogaine
and will still shoot drugz ?
I will kick is ass to the north pole and spend 6 months with him in the
middle of nowhere until he start to love himself and understand he had a
role to play in this beautiful world.
God bless Carla
Francis
How Ron is doing ? How the son of Faith is doing ?
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Francis………. you’re being a grouch 😉
Hi Nick, you haven’t posted too much in the last year
but aren’t you one of the people who might have a lot
of personal feelings about drug addiction due to one
of your family members being a junkie? I’m sorry I
don’t remember if it was your son or your brother, but
there was someone in your family youve dosed with
ibogaine a lot of times and no matter what you tried
or wanted them to do they would not get clean.
In spite of all your self awareness, isn’t it possible
you might have a teeny little bit of anger at them?
😉
Am I wrong? I know Marc Emery used to deliver up these
20 page rants about why junkies are sick and potheads
are healthy. Couldn’t have had anything to do with his
son being a junkie 😉
Love to all, especially to everyone writing 15 angry
letters to the list each day! 🙂
Carla B
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Nick!!
Your post generate a lot of turmoil
🙂
That all good, I mean this is free mailing list. You
have few people
who are
acting like they own the list and want to control or
censure everything
that
they don’t like.
To keep simple :I have made a small list of taboo
subjects:
TTR subjects: when someone try to explain an addict
how to Take Total
Responsability for his own action.
Spiritual subject : rejection by some of the
contribuitors of anything
relating to the spiritual realm.
Help subjects: ” don’t try to help me , I am doing
good, let me shoot my
dope ”
AA and NA subjects: ” thoses f……g hugers”
Character defects : ” don’t tell me I am selfish,
dishonest, lazy…ect
”
Judgment : ” nothing is wrong, nothing is bad…. ”
Restriction or control of drugs availability.
Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to
make new friends
and
eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
You should seriously take in consideration this
bag of tools
Drugz
Music ( avoid classical and religious )
Movies
How much I use to shoot
Self justification
You scrach my back, I scrach your back
Flattery
Drugz pop culture.
Atheism
Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and
organizations,
specialy
religious.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether
I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who
are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone
else who feels
completely
opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you
towards their viewpoint by
force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to
force other people to
your
viewpoint Nick?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide
to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism
Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days
are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the
last few years
where I have
relented and bought a bag or three, those times
were extremely
few and far
between and are a while past now. Not a year
yet, but over half at
least,
probably closer to nine months or so since last
time I did that.
If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize
that – you get scared
by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into
looking harder at
yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an
aware guy. Check it
out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you
seem to be serious,
that you
support forcing other people to submit to your
views by force. This
is
mostly scary to me because I’m just now
discovering this, and now I’m
concerned because I don’t know what I’ve
divulged on list you may
have read
and will one day decide to rat me or someone
else out over
because you think
it would do us good to have someone drag us out
of our homes and
teach
us
the better, or your way anyway. That’s what
scares me, not
looking harder at
myself. I don’t have a single problem with that
particular issue,
of looking
deep and hard within myself, and that you might
think I do have
issue with
that is another thing that leaves me shaking my
head, considering
just how
open I am and always have been about myself and
my feelings and
emotions on
this list. The reaction is notr the looking
inside myself, it’s
you thinking
it’s ok to force others to your way of living
and thinking. That’s a
terrible way to go through life in my opinion,
and I’m glad I’m
not somehow
under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve
so far escaped
and hope I
continue to do so for a long, long time.
Hi Preston,
Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and
shout for 10 minutes
this
morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine
with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts
who are fucking up a
bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism and Communism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 9:15:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Restriction or control of drugs availability.
Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to make new friends
and
eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
What if we’re not in the NY area? Appreciate the list but what then?
Will this at least get me phone sex?
.:vector:.
You should seriously take in consideration this bag of tools
Drugz
Music ( avoid classical and religious )
Movies
How much I use to shoot
Self justification
You scrach my back, I scrach your back
Flattery
Drugz pop culture.
Atheism
Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and organizations,
specialy
religious.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for while, and
whether
I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized I’m totally fine
with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who are fucking up a
bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone else who feels
completely
opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you towards their viewpoint
by
force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to force other people
to
your
viewpoint Nick?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Craving cow- J.
Date: January 27, 2005 at 4:34:08 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Whenever I’ve been thru a detox I have always felt like healthy foods etc.
I think cos the liver and whole system has been thru such an ordeal that
putting anything other than healthy into it would be nauseating (to me) so
I’ve guzzled fresh juices (with sprigs of parsley thrown in for good
measure) potassium broths (leafy green veg, carrot tops, chickweed etc) and
have felt sheetloads better for it.
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, 28 January 2005 6:22 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Craving cow- J.
Hey J.
Craving cow/chicken isn’t offensive- it’s probably
your body’s way of saying “get some gaddamned protein
and B-12 post haste, jerky…” 🙂
The day after my Ibo detox, I had a really strong
craving for a chicken dinner- which is weird, seeing
as though I am mostly vegetarian. I ordered Swiss
Chalet, and scarfed the whole thing. And you know
what- it tasted f*cking fantastic.
My craving for crappy food was completely eliminated
for 5 full weeks- no junk, no ice cream, no greasy
McDicks, et cetera.
J., may I ask if you did the Indra extract? I am
interested in trying some eventually.
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 4:35:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hear Hear Ken.
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Friday, 28 January 2005 6:27 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
.
Listen ‘ere folks, Nick is alright…..a wee misdirected, but he will
grow
out of it.
The reason we all go grey when we age ….and evolve through personal
experience…is because it helps us understand that there just
aren’t black
and white answers anymore …….shades of grey…..different
prespectives.
I think someone should volunteer to go ‘underground’ and check out
Nick’s
peace and love camp and report back to the group.
…….Ken
YES! This would be a great idea! How about you, Ken?
Love
Nick
Thank you for the offer Nick, but I am afraid that I might be too
disruptive. If I ‘excorcised’ my need to just yell and yell to cleanse
myself (aka child’s tantrum) I might just become so enthralled with the
liberating feeling that I might feel the need to compliment the therapy by
throttling some therapist…..just a therapeutic throttle of course….to
free up the child within me.
Your new age nazi attitude has obviously shaken up some of your peers here.
I would have thought that iboga would have a calmed you. Obviously
not….think about it Nick, you have to scream out loud like a 7 year old
boy and you want to force change on those who don’t see things as you do.
It looks like classic symptoms of severe arrested development ..to me.
I admit that I do get a wee frustrated with the closed minded. I went
through the recent ‘3 month war on drugs’ in Thailand where 2300 drug users
were systematically rounded up and shot. Everyone was ratting on each other
as they were in fear of their lives. People were ratting on straight folk
who they just didn’t like. The cops were put on a quota system…they had to
capture/kill x number of suspects or they were fired. Thousands were rounded
up and forced into army camp ‘detox’ centres…except the army did not know
how to detox people….so they caged them until the folks were believed to
be ‘clean’. This was just a year and a half ago Nick.
I have a new word for you to meditate on…………………empathy.
…..Ken
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick
Date: January 27, 2005 at 8:32:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Francis………. you’re being a grouch 😉
Hi Nick, you haven’t posted too much in the last year
but aren’t you one of the people who might have a lot
of personal feelings about drug addiction due to one
of your family members being a junkie? I’m sorry I
don’t remember if it was your son or your brother, but
there was someone in your family youve dosed with
ibogaine a lot of times and no matter what you tried
or wanted them to do they would not get clean.
In spite of all your self awareness, isn’t it possible
you might have a teeny little bit of anger at them?
😉
Am I wrong? I know Marc Emery used to deliver up these
20 page rants about why junkies are sick and potheads
are healthy. Couldn’t have had anything to do with his
son being a junkie 😉
Love to all, especially to everyone writing 15 angry
letters to the list each day! 🙂
Carla B
— The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Nick!!
Your post generate a lot of turmoil
🙂
That all good, I mean this is free mailing list. You
have few people
who are
acting like they own the list and want to control or
censure everything
that
they don’t like.
To keep simple :I have made a small list of taboo
subjects:
TTR subjects: when someone try to explain an addict
how to Take Total
Responsability for his own action.
Spiritual subject : rejection by some of the
contribuitors of anything
relating to the spiritual realm.
Help subjects: ” don’t try to help me , I am doing
good, let me shoot my
dope ”
AA and NA subjects: ” thoses f……g hugers”
Character defects : ” don’t tell me I am selfish,
dishonest, lazy…ect
”
Judgment : ” nothing is wrong, nothing is bad…. ”
Restriction or control of drugs availability.
Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to
make new friends
and
eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
You should seriously take in consideration this
bag of tools
Drugz
Music ( avoid classical and religious )
Movies
How much I use to shoot
Self justification
You scrach my back, I scrach your back
Flattery
Drugz pop culture.
Atheism
Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and
organizations,
specialy
religious.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether
I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who
are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone
else who feels
completely
opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you
towards their viewpoint by
force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to
force other people to
your
viewpoint Nick?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide
to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism
Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days
are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the
last few years
where I have
relented and bought a bag or three, those times
were extremely
few and far
between and are a while past now. Not a year
yet, but over half at
least,
probably closer to nine months or so since last
time I did that.
If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize
that – you get scared
by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into
looking harder at
yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an
aware guy. Check it
out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you
seem to be serious,
that you
support forcing other people to submit to your
views by force. This
is
mostly scary to me because I’m just now
discovering this, and now I’m
concerned because I don’t know what I’ve
divulged on list you may
have read
and will one day decide to rat me or someone
else out over
because you think
it would do us good to have someone drag us out
of our homes and
teach
us
the better, or your way anyway. That’s what
scares me, not
looking harder at
myself. I don’t have a single problem with that
particular issue,
of looking
deep and hard within myself, and that you might
think I do have
issue with
that is another thing that leaves me shaking my
head, considering
just how
open I am and always have been about myself and
my feelings and
emotions on
this list. The reaction is notr the looking
inside myself, it’s
you thinking
it’s ok to force others to your way of living
and thinking. That’s a
terrible way to go through life in my opinion,
and I’m glad I’m
not somehow
under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve
so far escaped
and hope I
continue to do so for a long, long time.
Hi Preston,
Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and
shout for 10 minutes
this
morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for
while, and whether I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized
I’m totally fine
with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts
who are fucking up a
bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search
for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 2:52:39 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ken wrote >I admit that I do get a wee frustrated with the closed minded. I went
through the recent ‘3 month war on drugs’ in Thailand where 2300 drug users
were systematically rounded up and shot.<
Below is what I published on this topic in Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs, an updated and revised reprint of a couple of articles originally published in High Times.
Attached are the photos that were published alongside this article.
While the US wosdu sucks and prison here is no joke whatsoever, Thailand really, really sucks when it comes to the whole wosdu thing.
[TITLE] Who Takes Responsibility for Thailand’s Bloody Drug War ‘Victory’?
[BYLINE] By Preston Peet
(published in Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs, October 2004- The Disinformation Company, NY.)
photos by Mathew McDaniel
—–
Editor’s note- American ex-patriot and human rights campaigner Matthew McDaniel, quoted in the following article, was arrested by Thai immigration officials at the Mae Sai immigration office when he went to renew his visa on April 15, 2004. As this book goes to press, McDaniel has been thrown out of the country and is now living in the US. What will happen to his pregnant Akha wife and four children, still at home in their remote village in Chiang Rai province, is still unsure, but what is known is that the Thai government and its military and police do not like nor want interference from pesky, outspoken foreigners who publicize the atrocities they are committing against certain segments of their society. McDaniel has been particularly derisive of the Thai government’s War on Some Drugs and Users, as is apparent from his comments which follow.
—–
[ILLUS. Akha Murder 2- “Akha man Leeh Huuh, murdered after police called him to the police station. He never made it.”]
Thailand’s Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra inexplicably declared a victory in Thailand’s recent all out War on Drugs campaign, on December 3, 2003 (simultaneously declaring a new War on Poverty), but there are still drugs, traffickers and users all over the country, despite the bodies of thousands of now-dead druggies, dealers and smugglers strewn throughout Thailand’s cities and villages.
[PULL QUOTE- There are still drugs, traffickers and users all over the country, despite the bodies of thousands of now-dead druggies, dealers and smugglers strewn throughout Thailand’s cities and villages.]
The first three months of the campaign, launched by Prime Minister Thaksin on February 1, 2003, became a murder spree, with police committing thousands of what many human rights organizations are calling “extra-judicial killings” of suspected drug dealers and addicts. Police and government officials counter that most of the more than 2500 known killings, 1500 in the first five weeks alone, were carried out by other drug dealers turning on one another in gang warfare or while trying to silence potential snitches, or by police acting in self-defense. Police officials claim that only 46 of the slayings were carried out by fellow officers. The slain include elderly people and children, some as young as sixteen months according to a recent report from Amnesty International titled “Thailand: Widespread abuses in the administration of justice.”
There’s no denying that widespread drug trafficking and sky-high addiction rates are a problem in Thailand. Over the last ten years, there has been a huge increase in the smuggling of methamphetamine pills, called ”ya ba” by locals, becoming even more prevalent than the region’s traditionally smuggled opium. Made extremely cheaply in neighboring Myanmar factories, the pills are then smuggled across Thailand’s border. With the fifteen prisons across the country designed to hold just 90,000 currently overflowing with over 173,900 inmates, killing suspects rather than arresting and trying them in court would of course keep the prison population from further swelling. There were, as of May 31, 2002, a total 106,256 people in Thai prisons for drug offenses (77,970 men and 28,286 women), a whoping 66.46% of the total prison population, according to the Thailand Corrections Department website.
[PULL QUOTE- The police shooting to death drug dealers and users in the streets was probably not what Amnesty International had in mind for reforms.]
The human rights organization Amnesty International has for years voiced concerns with “the long-term problems of torture and ill-treatment, and by prison conditions amounting to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment in Thailand.” But the police shooting to death drug dealers and users in the streets was probably not what Amnesty International had in mind for reforms.
“The drug war was a smashing of people, targeting the local boys mostly, kids, the police informers, the mules the police used to make their job look good, people the police did not like,” said Matthew McDaniel, founder and director of the Akha Heritage Foundation in Thailand, (www.akha.org). “It was just violence without due process. Many people were murdered, many clearly with no drug connection.” Living and working with the Akha hill tribe people for over twelve years, US ex-patriot McDaniel has seen firsthand the results of both drug addiction and the violent repression of the poverty-stricken Akha people by police and military forces. He concedes that one result of the latest campaign has been “less drug activity” but that “there never was any effort to work with the villages which would have worked as well, besides just killing everyone. In addition the economic situation is now worse, as drugs bridged the gap for farm land taken from the Akha, and now there is neither farm land or a drug economy” for the struggling Akha. McDaniel points out that Thailand’s government waged their anti-drug campaign with support from the US, the DEA having an office there. The US takes part in joint military anti-drug training operations every year with Thai forces called Cobra Gold. The US supplies the Thai military equipment as well as training, and US Special Forces has a small contingent of “advisors” working with Thai anti-drug forces.
Although Prime Minister Thaksin’s stated reason for declaring the War was to bring about a drug-free Thailand by Dec. 5, 2003, as a birthday present for Thailand’s King Bhumibol Adulyadej, McDaniel doesn’t believe that is the real reason for this bloody campaign. “It’s all War on Drugs but no emphasis on human rights. The prison population of the hill tribes is very high. Many people know this is just ethnic cleansing. But the police are not included, nor businessmen and government people. None of them were killed.” Hill tribe people in Thailand number just under one million, including the Akha, Lahu, Yao, Lisu, and Karen groups. They do not have citizenship, and according to Amnesty International “face discrimination with regard to education, health care, and other basic rights. At the same time they are exploited as a tourist attraction while often being accused by the authorities and others of destroying the environment and using opium and other illegal drugs.”
[PULL QUOTE- “The US absolutely supported this. The killings with US-made equipment are in violation of the Leahy Amendment.”]
“I think the big operators wanted a consolidation,” says McDaniel. “It also improved the control structure of the police and government, which is all central. Thai people tell me that because of the drug war killings they are now afraid to say anything at all about anything. So that was a success, now wasn’t it. The US absolutely supported this. The killings with US-made equipment are in violation of the Leahy Amendment.” The Leahy Amendment, first passed as part of the US Foreign Operations Appropriations Act in 1997, prohibits US military assistance to foreign military units that violate human rights with impunity, which aptly describes what has happened in Thailand.
Human rights workers and activists are not alone condemning the Thai anti-drug campaign. King Adulyadej himself stated in a 76th birthday speech that “The government reported about 2,500 people were killed. Some say more than 10,000 died. There must be some who were killed that we don’t know about. In this country, who is going to take responsibility?” the king asked. “In the end, the prime minister must take responsibility.”
[SUBHEAD] Postscript: Despite “Victory” Yet Another War on Some Drugs and Users Declared in Thailand
Thailand’s Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra declared yet another “new” War on Some Drugs and Users on Feb. 27, 2004, after declaring victory less than two months previously. Last year’s 10 month “war on drugs,” declared over December 3, 2003, left at least 2500, and possibly many more alleged druggies dead at police hands but did nothing to stop the flow of illegal drugs.
“Critics only focus on the death toll of bad people, rather than those officials who lost their lives for the public and the country. The criticisms are quite imbalanced,” said Thaksin in response to the US government’s annual Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 2003 (released Feb. 25, 2004), which decried the Thai government’s violent anti-drug campaign. But official Thai figures put the number of police and military troops killed during the campaign at approximately 31, compared to the thousands of suspects killed in the streets by police and military forces. The US report described official blacklists of suspected drug criminals, from which police were expected to cull a “prescribed percentage,” or they’d be fired. “The [Thai] Government threatened retaliation against local officials who did not produce results,” notes the US report.
[ILLUS. Akha Murder 1- “Loh Pah (looking to his left) and Leeh Huuh (looking to his right) were both murder after Phrao police of Chiangmai Province of Thailand called them both in for questioning. They never made it to the station.”]
“It’s unacceptable to me the way the US came out with the report by citing media reports. What kind of friend are they?” said Thaksin, quoted in Thailand’s Nation on Feb. 28. Considering previous and current US support of any and all anti-drug efforts around the world, one might understand Thaksin’s frustration. “There were no human-rights violations during the ‘war on drugs,'” said Rasamee Vistaveth, the deputy secretary general of Thailand’s Narcotics Control Board, two days after Thaksin announced the resumption of the war.
“This operation is re-launched not because drugs are rampant again, but it is launched when enemies are retreating,” said Thaksin when declaring the new campaign. “We must reinforce our attacks before they can recover and I am confident we will be able to contain them.” A cynic might be forgiven for doubting this new War on Some Drugs and Users will be any more effective at ending drug use or abuse than the last.
—–
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
.
>
> Listen ‘ere folks, Nick is alright…..a wee misdirected, but he will
grow
> out of it.
>
> The reason we all go grey when we age ….and evolve through personal
> experience…is because it helps us understand that there just
> aren’t black
> and white answers anymore …….shades of grey…..different
> prespectives.
>
> I think someone should volunteer to go ‘underground’ and check out
Nick’s
> peace and love camp and report back to the group.
>
> …….Ken
>
>
YES! This would be a great idea! How about you, Ken?
Love
Nick
Thank you for the offer Nick, but I am afraid that I might be too
disruptive. If I ‘excorcised’ my need to just yell and yell to cleanse
myself (aka child’s tantrum) I might just become so enthralled with the
liberating feeling that I might feel the need to compliment the therapy by
throttling some therapist…..just a therapeutic throttle of course….to
free up the child within me.
Your new age nazi attitude has obviously shaken up some of your peers here.
I would have thought that iboga would have a calmed you. Obviously
not….think about it Nick, you have to scream out loud like a 7 year old
boy and you want to force change on those who don’t see things as you do.
It looks like classic symptoms of severe arrested development ..to me.
I admit that I do get a wee frustrated with the closed minded. I went
through the recent ‘3 month war on drugs’ in Thailand where 2300 drug users
were systematically rounded up and shot. Everyone was ratting on each other
as they were in fear of their lives. People were ratting on straight folk
who they just didn’t like. The cops were put on a quota system…they had to
capture/kill x number of suspects or they were fired. Thousands were rounded
up and forced into army camp ‘detox’ centres…except the army did not know
how to detox people….so they caged them until the folks were believed to
be ‘clean’. This was just a year and a half ago Nick.
I have a new word for you to meditate on…………………empathy.
…..Ken
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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 27, 2005 at 7:59:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
l-tryptophan is a better choice if you can get hold of it, as 5-htp
doesn’t cross the brain barrier as readily. that isn’t to say 5-htp is
useless necessarily, but tryptophan is certainly more effective.
unfortuntely in the US, there was a bad batch that came in a couple
decades ago, i forget exactly what it was contaminated with, but
somethinng that led to eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome, an auto-immune
disorder, that affected a number of people exposed to it. being its
typical logicl self (note sarcasm) the US govt banned the sale of pure
tryptophan supplements, and of course didn’t reverse the ban when it came
out that it wasn’t the tryptophan itself that caused the problems. you
can, however, still buy tryptophan legally in the US in amino acid complex
supplements (ones that have multiple amino acids), and in bulk.
5htp is good but I’ve been told that tit takes a couple of weeks to have
an effect like most anti-depressants…
My understanding is that 5 htp is a precursor to serotonin, but only if
you are eating right and getting the right nutrients and such…
Another to try out maybe is L-Tryptophan…(5htp is 5 hydroxytryptophan)
my local nutritionist informed me that this is a more direct precursor to
serotonin and I did notice a significant difference after taking this one
with a nice regiment of vitamins and minerals and such. I take 500mg with
meals, 2-3 times a day… If it makes you sleepy you can take 2 x 100mg at
bedtime.
I’ve taken 5htp before and noticed(maybe?) a difference, but I recently
came off of effexor (a SNRI) while taking the l-tryptophan, and I haven’t
felt clearer in a while… A nice change after being on anti-depressants
for the last 2 years.
thats my 2 cents
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >To:
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:23:58 +130>
Thank you for that
..and it would be nice for you if you could find out
about taking both
perhaps ask the doc? We have different names for
drugs >over here, so I have no idea what people are talking about
unless I do a >websearch! Prozac is about the only commonly named
drug. I take something >called Aropax, which isnt as full on as
prozac and Ive had no side effects >apart from sleep and appetite (but
hey, coffee and cigs get me thru the day! >Lol) > >Will look into this
5 htp
. > >Kirk > > > > _____ > >From: thethird@myway.com
[mailto:thethird@myway.com] >Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 5:21 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP > > > > >Hey
Kirsty, >I take 100 mgs of 5htp in the morning and I have noticed a
difference in the >levels of my anxiety and depression. But, if I try
and remember back to when >I was on zoloft I would say that zoloft made
more of a difference. In fact, >because I get such bad panic attacks
during school I am thinking about going >back on something like zoloft,
at least until I get settled back into the >routine of being in class.
I’m thinking about decreasing the 5htp, but am a >little nervous about
it, but I assume that I have to stop taking it if I go >back on zoloft.
There was an interesting book out awhile ago about 5htp and >it
explained how much to take for certain problems, but I can’t remember
the >name of it. I will try looking for it, and I can look something up
in it if >there is any info that you’d like to know. > > > > > >— On
Tue 01/25, Kirsty Sutherland < captkirk@kol.co.nz > wrote: > >From:
Kirsty Sutherland [mailto: captkirk@kol.co.nz] >To:
ibogaine@mindvox.com >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:57:38 +1300 >Subject:
RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP > >Thank you muchly…will look into it (for
depression at the mo…) >:o) >Kirk > >—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com] >Sent: Wednesday, 26
January 2005 7:04 a.m. >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com >Subject: [Ibogaine]
5-HTP > >hi Kirk, > >Here is a link to a short, concise description of
5HTP: >http://www.biopsychiatry.com/5-htp.htm > >5-HTP is the chemical
precursor to serotonin. I took >one capsule about 24 hours after my
treatment, and >could swear I felt some of the Ibogaine’s effects come
back. > >Julie > > > >__________________________________ >Do you
Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > >
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Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date:
12/26/2004 > > >– >Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >Checked by
AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release
Date: 12/26/2004 > > > >
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_____ > >No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. >Make My
Way your home on the Web – HYPERLINK “http://www.myway.com”
\nhttp://www.myway.com > >– >Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5
– Release Date: 12/26/2004 > > >– >Internal Virus Database is
out-of-date. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.302 / Virus
Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004 >
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Craving cow- J.
Date: January 27, 2005 at 2:40:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The day after my Ibo detox, I had a really strong
craving for a chicken dinner- which is weird, seeing
as though I am mostly vegetarian. <
Interesting. I too ordered a chicken dish when going out the first time, still very, very incredibly high after that first ibo voyage, specifically craving chicken, but it only took a couple of days before I stopped eating meat completely and haven’t since, whatever the date was back in August.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Craving cow- J.
Hey J.
Craving cow/chicken isn’t offensive- it’s probably
your body’s way of saying “get some gaddamned protein
and B-12 post haste, jerky…” 🙂
The day after my Ibo detox, I had a really strong
craving for a chicken dinner- which is weird, seeing
as though I am mostly vegetarian. I ordered Swiss
Chalet, and scarfed the whole thing. And you know
what- it tasted f*cking fantastic.
My craving for crappy food was completely eliminated
for 5 full weeks- no junk, no ice cream, no greasy
McDicks, et cetera.
J., may I ask if you did the Indra extract? I am
interested in trying some eventually.
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism and Communism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 2:08:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick!!
Your post generate a lot of turmoil 🙂
That all good, I mean this is free mailing list. You have few people who are
acting like they own the list and want to control or censure everything that
they don’t like.
To keep simple :I have made a small list of taboo subjects:
TTR subjects: when someone try to explain an addict how to Take Total
Responsability for his own action.
Spiritual subject : rejection by some of the contribuitors of anything
relating to the spiritual realm.
Help subjects: ” don’t try to help me , I am doing good, let me shoot my
dope ”
AA and NA subjects: ” thoses f……g hugers”
Character defects : ” don’t tell me I am selfish, dishonest, lazy…ect ”
Judgment : ” nothing is wrong, nothing is bad…. ”
Restriction or control of drugs availability.
Here is the list of hip subjects that will work to make new friends and
eventualy get laid , if you are in New york area
You should seriously take in consideration this bag of tools
Drugz
Music ( avoid classical and religious )
Movies
How much I use to shoot
Self justification
You scrach my back, I scrach your back
Flattery
Drugz pop culture.
Atheism
Outrage to the hypocrisy of various institutions and organizations, specialy
religious.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for while, and whether I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized I’m totally fine with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone else who feels
completely
opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you towards their viewpoint by
force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to force other people to your
viewpoint Nick?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the last few years
where I have
relented and bought a bag or three, those times were extremely
few and far
between and are a while past now. Not a year yet, but over half at
least,
probably closer to nine months or so since last time I did that.
If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at
yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it
out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you seem to be serious,
that you
support forcing other people to submit to your views by force. This is
mostly scary to me because I’m just now discovering this, and now I’m
concerned because I don’t know what I’ve divulged on list you may
have read
and will one day decide to rat me or someone else out over
because you think
it would do us good to have someone drag us out of our homes and teach
us
the better, or your way anyway. That’s what scares me, not
looking harder at
myself. I don’t have a single problem with that particular issue,
of looking
deep and hard within myself, and that you might think I do have
issue with
that is another thing that leaves me shaking my head, considering
just how
open I am and always have been about myself and my feelings and
emotions on
this list. The reaction is notr the looking inside myself, it’s
you thinking
it’s ok to force others to your way of living and thinking. That’s a
terrible way to go through life in my opinion, and I’m glad I’m
not somehow
under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve so far escaped
and hope I
continue to do so for a long, long time.
Hi Preston,
Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and shout for 10 minutes
this
morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for while, and whether I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized I’m totally fine with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 2:30:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well, my viewpoint is that it’s fine for governments to introduce humane
coercive measures to bring socially errant addicts towards therapy and
meaningful
change in their lives, to push them a bit, basically. I guess the opposite
to this is that it’s not fine to do it, which would seem to be the
position
that you’re taking. So, how do I feel about that, well, I feel OK about
it.
sure…that makes sense…. kind of like how the national socialist party
introduced coercive measures to bring those pesky socially errant jews
towards meaningful change in their lives….
damn those people who think they know how to best live their own lives.
thank goodness for governments, they always know what’s best for
everyone’s well-being. like those poor socially errants iraqis living
without democracy, i’m sure they’re all so much better off now that uncle
sam has stepped in and shown them what’s best for them. or those poor
socially errant native americans with all that beautiful pristine land to
worry about. good thing we took it off their hands for them.
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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 27, 2005 at 2:42:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I know it comforts you to make me out to be Hitler or something but
actually
all I’m saying is that I think addiction is a drag and that for
governments
to take a more pro-active stance against it is fine by me. There are now
much better tools to fight opiate addiction available and it is my belief
that it’s fine to use them. Ibogaine detox backed up by 6 months in a
therapeutic community rehab, I think it would be a great start.
well, i can’t speak for other people, but i’m not making you out to be
hitler.
but, saying that government should coerce people into “positive” change in
their lives IS periously close to what the nazis did to the jews, gypsies,
homosexuals, disabled, and other undesirables of their time. there is a
significant difference between saying government should provide the
necessary tools to address addiction and saying that they should coerce
people into getting “help”. the prior is merciful, the latter is
totalitarian.
which gets to the fundamental point, government has no business telling
anyone who isn’t an active threat to other people how to live their lives.
any deviation from that begins a descent on the slippery slope of state
sponsered bigotry, which can often lead to state sponsered genocide.
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Julie
Date: January 27, 2005 at 12:32:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“the Indra extract?”
Yes.
Not saying the it wouldn’t happen with HCL, I don’t
know, I’ve never done lower dose HCL. But yeah, that
million year old “indra” extract is what I be
referrin’ too : )
Hope your doing well.
-J
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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 27, 2005 at 12:30:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
if my thought dreams could be seen,
they’d probably put my head in a guillotine
mmmm
J
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 12:27:08 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
.
Listen ‘ere folks, Nick is alright…..a wee misdirected, but he will
grow
out of it.
The reason we all go grey when we age ….and evolve through personal
experience…is because it helps us understand that there just
aren’t black
and white answers anymore …….shades of grey…..different
prespectives.
I think someone should volunteer to go ‘underground’ and check out
Nick’s
peace and love camp and report back to the group.
…….Ken
YES! This would be a great idea! How about you, Ken?
Love
Nick
Thank you for the offer Nick, but I am afraid that I might be too
disruptive. If I ‘excorcised’ my need to just yell and yell to cleanse
myself (aka child’s tantrum) I might just become so enthralled with the
liberating feeling that I might feel the need to compliment the therapy by
throttling some therapist…..just a therapeutic throttle of course….to
free up the child within me.
Your new age nazi attitude has obviously shaken up some of your peers here.
I would have thought that iboga would have a calmed you. Obviously
not….think about it Nick, you have to scream out loud like a 7 year old
boy and you want to force change on those who don’t see things as you do.
It looks like classic symptoms of severe arrested development ..to me.
I admit that I do get a wee frustrated with the closed minded. I went
through the recent ‘3 month war on drugs’ in Thailand where 2300 drug users
were systematically rounded up and shot. Everyone was ratting on each other
as they were in fear of their lives. People were ratting on straight folk
who they just didn’t like. The cops were put on a quota system…they had to
capture/kill x number of suspects or they were fired. Thousands were rounded
up and forced into army camp ‘detox’ centres…except the army did not know
how to detox people….so they caged them until the folks were believed to
be ‘clean’. This was just a year and a half ago Nick.
I have a new word for you to meditate on…………………empathy.
…..Ken
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot Nesta
Date: January 27, 2005 at 12:26:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
”
Many more will have to suffer.
Many more will have to die.
Don’t ask me why.
Things are not the way they used to be.
I won’t tell no lie.
One and All got to face reality.
Though I tried to find the answers.
To all the questions they ask.
Though I know it’s impossible
To go living through the past.
”
___________________________________________________________
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Craving cow- J.
Date: January 27, 2005 at 12:21:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey J.
Craving cow/chicken isn’t offensive- it’s probably
your body’s way of saying “get some gaddamned protein
and B-12 post haste, jerky…” 🙂
The day after my Ibo detox, I had a really strong
craving for a chicken dinner- which is weird, seeing
as though I am mostly vegetarian. I ordered Swiss
Chalet, and scarfed the whole thing. And you know
what- it tasted f*cking fantastic.
My craving for crappy food was completely eliminated
for 5 full weeks- no junk, no ice cream, no greasy
McDicks, et cetera.
J., may I ask if you did the Indra extract? I am
interested in trying some eventually.
Julie
__________________________________
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 27, 2005 at 12:02:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi All,
Lower doses seem to have the same effect (with the
extract), did 1/2 gram extract 2 days ago eating a
diet of too much soda and fast food, haven’t had any
since.
Went with friends to Hamburger place, and just
watching them eat greezy Icky, you get the picture.
Not that I have some right to get them to eat
“healthier” (Paging Dr.Nick), I just got a very strong
message: “I am What I eat and Drink”
So now I’m Craving the stereotypical Organic Dark
Greens “Spring Mix”, herbs(especially rosemary and
basil), Fruit Juice, Spring Water, Don’t mean to
offend but my body craves Chicken and Cow afterwards.
Just sayin’.
— Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Speaking just for me and I didn’t take it at Sara’s,
I had slightly less
interest in sugary, processed food aftwards, when I
first took ibogaine, but
that didn’t last long. I still enjoy fruit, but not
quite as often.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation
Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide
to Ancient Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jon Ludlam” <seraphina@compuserve.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Message text written by Sara
Iboga will reduce big amount of bacteria (
parasites) that are living in
symbiotic relationship with our bodies, which is
another story but make
iboga worth trying to reduce the chance of total
invasion of your body,
And bring you closer to your original “you” when
born, who is different to
the “you”<
Sara,
On a number of occasions you have referred to you
patients as ” Free from
sugar addiction.” If you have the time would you
please explain in further
detail what you know of the freedom from sugar after
using Ibogaine?
Respectfully Yours,
Jon Ludlam
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 27, 2005 at 11:04:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And, when you say you are all for the German government getting harsh with addicts, hasn’t the drug war proven anything to you?<
BINGO!
Well said.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: thethird@myway.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:12 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Wow Nick, I keep feeling a bit stunned when I think about this whole thing. A lot of doctors think that addiction has to do with genetics, so pretty much whomever you were born to is a factor in weather you might one day become addicted to drugs and reading these posts I reflect on other times in history when people, just because they were born to certain people or practiced a certain religion were forced to hide from ‘the enlightened community’, lest they be dragged away from their homes. I can’t say that I ever looked at the Holocaust as an enlightened society, but you can bet your ass that they thought they were. They thought they were doing the world (even the Jewish people) a favor. It’s interesting how Hitler had Jewish blood isn’t it, like he hated that part of himself so much that by forcing that part of society to go away, he could feel better about himself. I’m not saying you are the next Hitler, it’s just that reading ! some of your posts I am reminded of that time in history. I would think that anytime someone has a desire to force other people into becoming something else, you have to seriously question if there is in fact any altruism in their motives. Finding out what life is all about will last a lifetime, and by forcing other people to do something they don’t want to do, you are wasting your time and energy, which you could spend on yourself or people who really want help. The only time I can think of when forcing people to behave a certain way turned out for the better was forcing people to give up slavery, and the whole purpose of that was to GIVE freedom to people (slaves) not take it away. (Of course the reasons for the war were not quite as benevolent as that, but it helped.) I’m obviously not much of a history buff (or I would have come up with much better instances 🙂 ), and maybe there are some cases which would show otherwise, but I can’t imagine taking freedom away from a c! ertain ‘type’ of people as being in any way a positive thing. And that , out of all of the things you implied, is what depressed me the most. I just don’t get people who are so sure they have the right answers that they will actually bet someone else’s life on it, which is what you do when you force someone else to do what you believe. I don’t know, maybe you really think that you are giving addicts more freedom by forcing them out into your world, but shouldn’t you respect their personal freedom and decision to find their own path? And, when you say you are all for the German government getting harsh with addicts, hasn’t the drug war proven anything to you? I know all this is off topic, but it is pretty interesting, at least to me, and I appreciate you voicing your beliefs even though I don’t agree with them. Damn, I didn’t mean for this to be so long.
— On Wed 01/26, Nick Sandberg < nick227@tiscali.co.uk > wrote:
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto: nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:45:31 -0000
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where you wrote:
What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
Are you serious that you think people should be forced out of their homes and then forced into doing things that other people feel they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious. What if we only get one life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks we should do to really get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet peeves is nosy people who feel that they know what is best for everyone else. Being a drug addict it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage of people who get off hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd can’t wait to feel that spiritual better than thouness when they take you by the hand and guide you through all that nastiness and bring you into the light. I have complete respect for people who spend time helping other people, but I think it is important that they don’t try to force people into that help, because it won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking their noses into your private little thought processes! Why not? What are you hiding?
Also when you said you are anti-heroin, I would like to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you think it ruins people’s lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness. Heroin’s a painkiller, an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness, blocks development.
Everything we take acts like a drug in our brains, from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen is probably the most addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about trying to kick oxygen because our quality of life would be pretty shitty without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for some people, because of a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of awareness, chronic immaturity, laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that their quality of life with opiates is higher than without it. All in all it should be up to the individual, as long as they are not hurting any one else, to decide how they want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think dragging people out of their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean it. Drag all those seedy little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the world out into daylight and get to recognize who you really are. Why not? Confront your fears! Show yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in my life that some people would have loved to have the control to stop me, but I am thankful that they couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more understanding about myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If you can’t be in someone else’s head you can’t know what they want or need, so don’t you think it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t my experience. A lot of people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually need. They’re stuck in repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face and hold down feelings, desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten their image of themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go round and round, and if they come past me I try to encourage them to look deeper in whatever way I can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help people, wait until they decide what they want to change, and then help them, as opposed to forcing what you think is best for them upon them? You always seem so positive and up-beat that I think you are probably great at helping people, but from some of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a little forceful (the whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of course it’s hard to know what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from people. And if someone is coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit from useful feedback, then I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am. About knowing how people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails are a bit limited generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
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From: “donny snuffaluffagus” <loudon420@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 27, 2005 at 10:44:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
5htp is good but I’ve been told that tit takes a couple of weeks to have an effect like most anti-depressants…
My understanding is that 5 htp is a precursor to serotonin, but only if you are eating right and getting the right nutrients and such…
Another to try out maybe is L-Tryptophan…(5htp is 5 hydroxytryptophan) my local nutritionist informed me that this is a more direct precursor to serotonin and I did notice a significant difference after taking this one with a nice regiment of vitamins and minerals and such. I take 500mg with meals, 2-3 times a day… If it makes you sleepy you can take 2 x 100mg at bedtime.
I’ve taken 5htp before and noticed(maybe?) a difference, but I recently came off of effexor (a SNRI) while taking the l-tryptophan, and I haven’t felt clearer in a while… A nice change after being on anti-depressants for the last 2 years.
thats my 2 cents
>From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
>Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:23:58 +130>
>Thank you for that
..and it would be nice for you if you could find out
>about taking both perhaps ask the doc? We have different names for drugs
>over here, so I have no idea what people are talking about unless I do a
>websearch! Prozac is about the only commonly named drug. I take something
>called Aropax, which isnt as full on as prozac and Ive had no side effects
>apart from sleep and appetite (but hey, coffee and cigs get me thru the day!
>Lol)
>
>Will look into this 5 htp .
>
>Kirk
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
>Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 5:21 a.m.
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
>
>
>
>
>Hey Kirsty,
>I take 100 mgs of 5htp in the morning and I have noticed a difference in the
>levels of my anxiety and depression. But, if I try and remember back to when
>I was on zoloft I would say that zoloft made more of a difference. In fact,
>because I get such bad panic attacks during school I am thinking about going
>back on something like zoloft, at least until I get settled back into the
>routine of being in class. I’m thinking about decreasing the 5htp, but am a
>little nervous about it, but I assume that I have to stop taking it if I go
>back on zoloft. There was an interesting book out awhile ago about 5htp and
>it explained how much to take for certain problems, but I can’t remember the
>name of it. I will try looking for it, and I can look something up in it if
>there is any info that you’d like to know.
>
>
>
>
>
>— On Tue 01/25, Kirsty Sutherland < captkirk@kol.co.nz > wrote:
>
>From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto: captkirk@kol.co.nz]
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:57:38 +1300
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
>
>Thank you muchly…will look into it (for depression at the mo…)
>:o)
>Kirk
>
>—–Original Message—–
>From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 7:04 a.m.
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
>
>hi Kirk,
>
>Here is a link to a short, concise description of
>5HTP:
>http://www.biopsychiatry.com/5-htp.htm
>
>5-HTP is the chemical precursor to serotonin. I took
>one capsule about 24 hours after my treatment, and
>could swear I felt some of the Ibogaine’s effects come
>back.
>
>Julie
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
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>
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>
>–
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>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
> _____
>
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>Make My Way your home on the Web – HYPERLINK “http://www.myway.com”
>\nhttp://www.myway.com
>
>–
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 27, 2005 at 10:40:54 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I know it comforts you to make me out to be Hitler or something but actually all I’m saying is that I think addiction is a drag and that for governments to take a more pro-active stance against it is fine by me. There are now much better tools to fight opiate addiction available and it is my belief that it’s fine to use them. Ibogaine detox backed up by 6 months in a therapeutic community rehab, I think it would be a great start.
BTW, it is not relevant to me whether an addiction has a genetic root. It is not about “blaming” someone because they are addicted to drugs and trying to find reason for it (beyond the use of that in undoing the addiction). It is about creating positive social change. A gene sequence might represent an inherited trait, a predisposition to chemical dependence. That does not mean you have to be like that forever. You have a choice. As a conscious individual you can choose to go for change, or you can choose to stay with your old position. You are not trapped by your DNA, unless of course you choose to believe that.
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 15:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Wow Nick, I keep feeling a bit stunned when I think about this whole thing. A lot of doctors think that addiction has to do with genetics, so pretty much whomever you were born to is a factor in weather you might one day become addicted to drugs and reading these posts I reflect on other times in history when people, just because they were born to certain people or practiced a certain religion were forced to hide from ‘the enlightened community’, lest they be dragged away from their homes. I can’t say that I ever looked at the Holocaust as an enlightened society, but you can bet your ass that they thought they were. They thought they were doing the world (even the Jewish people) a favor. It’s interesting how Hitler had Jewish blood isn’t it, like he hated that part of himself so much that by forcing that part of society to go away, he could feel better about himself. I’m not saying you are the next Hitler, it’s just that reading some of y our posts I am reminded of that time in history. I would think that anytime someone has a desire to force other people into becoming something else, you have to seriously question if there is in fact any altruism in their motives. Finding out what life is all about will last a lifetime, and by forcing other people to do something they don’t want to do, you are wasting your time and energy, which you could spend on yourself or people who really want help. The only time I can think of when forcing people to behave a certain way turned out for the better was forcing people to give up slavery, and the whole purpose of that was to GIVE freedom to people (slaves) not take it away. (Of course the reasons for the war were not quite as benevolent as that, but it helped.) I’m obviously not much of a history buff (or I would have come up with much better instances 🙂 ), and maybe there are some cases which would show otherwise, but I can’t imagine taking freedom away from a certain ‘type’ of pe ople as being in any way a positive thing. And that, out of all of the things you implied, is what depressed me the most. I just don’t get people who are so sure they have the right answers that they will actually bet someone else’s life on it, which is what you do when you force someone else to do what you believe. I don’t know, maybe you really think that you are giving addicts more freedom by forcing them out into your world, but shouldn’t you respect their personal freedom and decision to find their own path? And, when you say you are all for the German government getting harsh with addicts, hasn’t the drug war proven anything to you? I know all this is off topic, but it is pretty interesting, at least to me, and I appreciate you voicing your beliefs even though I don’t agree with them. Damn, I didn’t mean for this to be so long.
— On Wed 01/26, Nick Sandberg < nick227@tiscali.co.uk > wrote:
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto: nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:45:31 -0000
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where you wrote:
>>What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
>>don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
>>don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
>>Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
>>out of their homes and made to take part.
Are you serious that you think people should be forced out of their homes and then forced into doing things that other people feel they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious. What if we only get one life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks we should do to really get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet peeves is nosy people who feel that they know what is best for everyone else. Being a drug addict it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage of people who get off hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd can’t wait to feel that spiritual better than thouness when they take you by the hand and guide you through all that nastiness and bring you into the light. I have complete respect for people who spend time helping other people, but I think it is important that they don’t try to force people into that help, because it won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking their noses into your private little thought processes! Why not? What are you hiding?
Also when you said you are anti-heroin, I would like to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you think it ruins people’s lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness. Heroin’s a painkiller, an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness, blocks development.
Everything we take acts like a drug in our brains, from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen is probably the most addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about trying to kick oxygen because our quality of life would be pretty shitty without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for some people, because of a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of awareness, chronic immaturity, laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that their quality of life with opiates is higher than without it. All in all it should be up to the individual, as long as they are not hurting any one else, to decide how they want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think dragging people out of their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean it. Drag all those seedy little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the world out into daylight and get to recognize who you really are. Why not? Confront your fears! Show yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in my life that some people would have loved to have the control to stop me, but I am thankful that they couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more understanding about myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If you can’t be in someone else’s head you can’t know what they want or need, so don’t you think it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t my experience. A lot of people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually need. They’re stuck in repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face and hold down feelings, desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten their image of themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go round and round, and if they come past me I try to encourage them to look deeper in whatever way I can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help people, wait until they decide what they want to change, and then help them, as opposed to forcing what you think is best for them upon them? You always seem so positive and up-beat that I think you are probably great at helping people, but from some of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a little forceful (the whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of course it’s hard to know what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from people. And if someone is coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit from useful feedback, then I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am. About knowing how people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails are a bit limited generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 27, 2005 at 10:12:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Wow Nick, I keep feeling a bit stunned when I think about this whole thing. A lot of doctors think that addiction has to do with genetics, so pretty much whomever you were born to is a factor in weather you might one day become addicted to drugs and reading these posts I reflect on other times in history when people, just because they were born to certain people or practiced a certain religion were forced to hide from ‘the enlightened community’, lest they be dragged away from their homes. I can’t say that I ever looked at the Holocaust as an enlightened society, but you can bet your ass that they thought they were. They thought they were doing the world (even the Jewish people) a favor. It’s interesting how Hitler had Jewish blood isn’t it, like he hated that part of himself so much that by forcing that part of society to go away, he could feel better about himself. I’m not saying you are the next Hitler, it’s just that reading some of your posts I am reminded of that time in history. I would think that anytime someone has a desire to force other people into becoming something else, you have to seriously question if there is in fact any altruism in their motives. Finding out what life is all about will last a lifetime, and by forcing other people to do something they don’t want to do, you are wasting your time and energy, which you could spend on yourself or people who really want help. The only time I can think of when forcing people to behave a certain way turned out for the better was forcing people to give up slavery, and the whole purpose of that was to GIVE freedom to people (slaves) not take it away. (Of course the reasons for the war were not quite as benevolent as that, but it helped.) I’m obviously not much of a history buff (or I would have come up with much better instances 🙂 ), and maybe there are some cases which would show otherwise, but I can’t imagine taking freedom away from a certain ‘type’ of people as being in any way a positive thing. And that, out of all of the things you implied, is what depressed me the most. I just don’t get people who are so sure they have the right answers that they will actually bet someone else’s life on it, which is what you do when you force someone else to do what you believe. I don’t know, maybe you really think that you are giving addicts more freedom by forcing them out into your world, but shouldn’t you respect their personal freedom and decision to find their own path? And, when you say you are all for the German government getting harsh with addicts, hasn’t the drug war proven anything to you? I know all this is off topic, but it is pretty interesting, at least to me, and I appreciate you voicing your beliefs even though I don’t agree with them. Damn, I didn’t mean for this to be so long.
— On Wed 01/26, Nick Sandberg < nick227@tiscali.co.uk > wrote:
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto: nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:45:31 -0000
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where you wrote:
>>What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
>>don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
>>don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
>>Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
>>out of their homes and made to take part.
Are you serious that you think people should be forced out of their homes and then forced into doing things that other people feel they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious. What if we only get one life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks we should do to really get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet peeves is nosy people who feel that they know what is best for everyone else. Being a drug addict it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage of people who get off hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd can’t wait to feel that spiritual better than thouness when they take you by the hand and guide you through all that nastiness and bring you into the light. I have complete respect for people who spend time helping other people, but I think it is important that they don’t try to force people into that help, because it won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking their noses into your private little thought processes! Why not? What are you hiding?
Also when you said you are anti-heroin, I would like to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you think it ruins people’s lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness. Heroin’s a painkiller, an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness, blocks development.
Everything we take acts like a drug in our brains, from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen is probably the most addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about trying to kick oxygen because our quality of life would be pretty shitty without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for some people, because of a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of awareness, chronic immaturity, laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that their quality of life with opiates is higher than without it. All in all it should be up to the individual, as long as they are not hurting any one else, to decide how they want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think dragging people out of their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean it. Drag all those seedy little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the world out into daylight and get to recognize who you really are. Why not? Confront your fears! Show yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in my life that some people would have loved to have the control to stop me, but I am thankful that they couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more understanding about myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If you can’t be in someone else’s head you can’t know what they want or need, so don’t you think it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t my experience. A lot of people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually need. They’re stuck in repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face and hold down feelings, desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten their image of themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go round and round, and if they come past me I try to encourage them to look deeper in whatever way I can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help people, wait until they decide what they want to change, and then help them, as opposed to forcing what you think is best for them upon them? You always seem so positive and up-beat that I think you are probably great at helping people, but from some of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a little forceful (the whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of course it’s hard to know what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from people. And if someone is coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit from useful feedback, then I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am. About knowing how people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails are a bit limited generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 9:56:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Original Message —
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:33:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for while, and whether I’m
like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized I’m totally fine with
it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone else who feels completely
opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you towards their viewpoint by
force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to force other people to your
viewpoint Nick?
Hi Preston,
Well, my viewpoint is that it’s fine for governments to introduce humane
coercive measures to bring socially errant addicts towards therapy and meaningful
change in their lives, to push them a bit, basically. I guess the opposite
to this is that it’s not fine to do it, which would seem to be the position
that you’re taking. So, how do I feel about that, well, I feel OK about
it.
Love
Nick
___________________________________________________________
Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005.
Cheap flights – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/
Bargain holidays – http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 8:33:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick wrote >Then I thought about this dialogue for while, and whether I’m like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized I’m totally fine with it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.<
And I still ask, so how do you feel about someone else who feels completely opposite to you forcing you, or pushing you towards their viewpoint by force? Is that cool too, or is it only cool to force other people to your viewpoint Nick?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the last few years
where I have
relented and bought a bag or three, those times were extremely
few and far
between and are a while past now. Not a year yet, but over half at least,
probably closer to nine months or so since last time I did that.
>If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at
yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you seem to be serious,
that you
support forcing other people to submit to your views by force. This is
mostly scary to me because I’m just now discovering this, and now I’m
concerned because I don’t know what I’ve divulged on list you may
have read
and will one day decide to rat me or someone else out over
because you think
it would do us good to have someone drag us out of our homes and teach us
the better, or your way anyway. That’s what scares me, not
looking harder at
myself. I don’t have a single problem with that particular issue,
of looking
deep and hard within myself, and that you might think I do have
issue with
that is another thing that leaves me shaking my head, considering
just how
open I am and always have been about myself and my feelings and
emotions on
this list. The reaction is notr the looking inside myself, it’s
you thinking
it’s ok to force others to your way of living and thinking. That’s a
terrible way to go through life in my opinion, and I’m glad I’m
not somehow
under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve so far escaped
and hope I
continue to do so for a long, long time.
Hi Preston,
Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and shout for 10 minutes this
morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for while, and whether I’m like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized I’m totally fine with it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 27, 2005 at 7:45:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Speaking just for me and I didn’t take it at Sara’s, I had slightly less interest in sugary, processed food aftwards, when I first took ibogaine, but that didn’t last long. I still enjoy fruit, but not quite as often.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Jon Ludlam” <seraphina@compuserve.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Message text written by Sara
Iboga will reduce big amount of bacteria ( parasites) that are living in
symbiotic relationship with our bodies, which is another story but make
iboga worth trying to reduce the chance of total invasion of your body,
And bring you closer to your original “you” when born, who is different to
the “you”<
Sara,
On a number of occasions you have referred to you patients as ” Free from
sugar addiction.” If you have the time would you please explain in further
detail what you know of the freedom from sugar after using Ibogaine?
Respectfully Yours,
Jon Ludlam
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Jon Ludlam <seraphina@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 27, 2005 at 7:26:52 AM EST
To: “INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Message text written by Sara
Iboga will reduce big amount of bacteria ( parasites) that are living in
symbiotic relationship with our bodies, which is another story but make
iboga worth trying to reduce the chance of total invasion of your body,
And bring you closer to your original “you” when born, who is different to
the “you”<
Sara,
On a number of occasions you have referred to you patients as ” Free from
sugar addiction.” If you have the time would you please explain in further
detail what you know of the freedom from sugar after using Ibogaine?
Respectfully Yours,
Jon Ludlam
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 5:27:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 00:35
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the last few years
where I have
relented and bought a bag or three, those times were extremely
few and far
between and are a while past now. Not a year yet, but over half at least,
probably closer to nine months or so since last time I did that.
If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at
yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you seem to be serious,
that you
support forcing other people to submit to your views by force. This is
mostly scary to me because I’m just now discovering this, and now I’m
concerned because I don’t know what I’ve divulged on list you may
have read
and will one day decide to rat me or someone else out over
because you think
it would do us good to have someone drag us out of our homes and teach us
the better, or your way anyway. That’s what scares me, not
looking harder at
myself. I don’t have a single problem with that particular issue,
of looking
deep and hard within myself, and that you might think I do have
issue with
that is another thing that leaves me shaking my head, considering
just how
open I am and always have been about myself and my feelings and
emotions on
this list. The reaction is notr the looking inside myself, it’s
you thinking
it’s ok to force others to your way of living and thinking. That’s a
terrible way to go through life in my opinion, and I’m glad I’m
not somehow
under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve so far escaped
and hope I
continue to do so for a long, long time.
Hi Preston,
Yeah, well, personally, I had a nice scream and shout for 10 minutes this
morning. Then I thought about this dialogue for while, and whether I’m like
totally off for writing like this, and I realized I’m totally fine with it.
If the German government wants to push addicts who are fucking up a bit
harder, I think it’s ok. That’s my position.
love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 4:37:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 27 January 2005 02:08
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
So the prohibitionists are acting as agents of a higher world
conciousness.
Unconsciously, yes!
Good to know that.
Granted heroin hasn’t been around all that long, but still, opium
has and if
one does enough of it the effects are remarkably similar to
heroin. Were
those who used it for the thousands upon thousands of years
for so many
different reasons wrong after all? So if our use of this and other
substances was so wrong, how in the heck did we manage to
evolve so far
along then?
Preston, man, you’ll have to just wait and watch it all happen.
Evolution is not a linear process, it goes on in leaps and
bounds and it’s
starting to leap up a bit now. When I saw the response in Europe to the
tsunami disaster it was obvious to me that stuff was really
changing. When
people who ten years ago couldn’t give a shit start throwing their money
out
to people they don’t even know in that way you know consciousness is
really
shifting gears. Yes, we experience life as being something that’s
happening
to the personal me, but underneath that it’s just consciousness and it’s
depersonalized. When it starts moving it just moves. The experience of
having a personal identity shifts with it. That’s how you get
prohibitionist
or pro-enforced-therapy movements. And when it starts to move like this
there develops a huge subconscious craving for light, for
awareness. What
you see in Germany with the shifting attitude to addiction is just the
beginning. And it’s good! I mean, who wants to be a junkie forever, for
fuck’s sake?
So, people want to be able to choose how they come off drugs?
Fair enough,
but choose now! Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man. Maktab, it is written. And sealed with the seven
seals and
all that stuff. Give yourself a break and move away from it now. If you
find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at
yourself.
It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy.
Check it out.
Love
Nick
Gawd damn , I’ve been biting my tongue.
You folks should feel privledged to witness first hand the face
of the ‘new
age nazi movement’. Nick, I have to thank you for vindicating me in my
learned response to people who pass out their sanctimonious verbiage like
car salesmen.
Listen ‘ere folks, Nick is alright…..a wee misdirected, but he will grow
out of it.
The reason we all go grey when we age ….and evolve through personal
experience…is because it helps us understand that there just
aren’t black
and white answers anymore …….shades of grey…..different
prespectives.
I think someone should volunteer to go ‘underground’ and check out Nick’s
peace and love camp and report back to the group.
…….Ken
YES! This would be a great idea! How about you, Ken?
Love
Nick
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Date: January 27, 2005 at 1:21:06 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
No potatoes for me thanks mate.
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 27, 2005 at 1:04:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
*Nick,
*Mate,…..that’s a very scary comment.
*What then after that?
with love,
Jasen.
What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
with love
Nick
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From: Robert Ray <robertray_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 9:42:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Can anybody please give my a working address to get off this list???
Thanks,
Robert
“….Ken” <chayco@island.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg”
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
> >
> > So the prohibitionists are acting as agents of a higher world
> > conciousness.
>
> Unconsciously, yes!
>
> > Good to know that.
> > Granted heroin hasn’t been around all that long, but still, opium
> > has and if
> > one does enough of it the effects are remarkably similar to heroin. Were
> > those who used it for the thousands upon thousands of years for so many
> > different reasons wrong after all? So if our use of this and other
> > substances was so wrong, how in the heck did we manage to evolve so far
> > along then?
> >
>
> Preston, man, you’ll have to just wait and watch it all happen.
>
> Evolution is not a linear process, it goes on in leaps and bounds and it’s
> starting to leap up a bit now. When I saw the response in Europe to the
> tsunami disaster it was obvious to me that stuff was really changing. When
> people who ten years ago couldn’t give a shit start throwing their money
out
> to people they don’t even know in that way you know consciousness is
really
> shifting gears. Yes, we experience life as being something that’s
happening
> to the personal me, but underneath that it’s just consciousness and it’s
> depersonalized. When it starts moving it just moves. The experience of
> having a personal identity shifts with it. That’s how you get
prohibitionist
> or pro-enforced-therapy movements. And when it starts to move like this
> there develops a huge subconscious craving for light, for awareness. What
> you see in Germany with the shifting attitude to addiction is just the
> beginning. And it’s good! I mean, who wants to be a junkie forever, for
> fuck’s sake?
>
> So, people want to be able to choose how they come off drugs? Fair enough,
> but choose now! Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
> numbered, man. Maktab, it is written. And sealed with the seven seals and
> all that stuff. Give yourself a break and move away from it now. If you
find
> these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
> emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at yourself.
It
> provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it out.
>
> Love
>
> Nick
Gawd damn , I’ve been biting my tongue.
You folks should feel privledged to witness first hand the face of the ‘new
age nazi movement’. Nick, I have to thank you for vindicating me in my
learned response to people who pass out their sanctimonious verbiage like
car salesmen.
Listen ‘ere folks, Nick is alright…..a wee misdirected, but he will grow
out of it.
The reason we all go grey when we age ….and evolve through personal
experience…is because it helps us understand that there just aren’t black
and white answers anymore …….shades of grey…..different prespectives.
I think someone should volunteer to go ‘underground’ and check out Nick’s
peace and love camp and report back to the group.
…….Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Long ‘article’ on history of Ibogaine/Sub WDs???
Date: January 26, 2005 at 9:17:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
I came across this whilst looking for something completely different! Its on a forum so I assume it’s a post-may be worth checking out the actual forum? I don’t have time, just thought I’d post the link
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3587390/an/0/page/0
I don’t know if it’s been shown before-it’s got the Mash quote about leaving dying people in hotel rooms or whatever. I’ll definitely be checking the site out later anyway.
I’m doing well and still clean. I don’t really crave it either but then I’ve totally changed most of the group of people I hang out with. Those who still use are good enough friends to keep it away from me.
Coming off Sub? I dunno. For me its been easy cutting down though I have noticed I’ve been getting headaches but that could be any number of things! I know its controversial-some people say yes but alot say no (as to WDs). As far as I’m (and this is only my very own observation) aware its relatively or just about painless. I’m just finding it hard, not to cut down which was easy (and I did it fast) but to stop doing it altogether now I’m down to like 1 or 2mg a day. I’m going to stabilise on 1mg asap per day and then do that 1mg every 2 days and stabilise, then every 3 and then I shouldn’t feel a thing when I stop completely. Its just the physical act of taking something every morning that I’m going to find hard to break. I’m very prone to psychosomatic illnesses if I have the slightest excuse! 😉
I’m thinking of switching to Naltrexone and trying to work up the cash to go to Sara’s but it just isn’t happening right now. I’m having enough trouble finding my rent and don’t ask about food! I’m sure it will be there for me at the right time so I’m not worried. When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear or whatever that quote is!
Oh I’ve got 700+ list emails now n never have time to go through them but the headings I keep seeing have me filled with curiosity!!!
Love, Happiness and Hugs to everyone,
Hannah
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 9:07:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
So the prohibitionists are acting as agents of a higher world
conciousness.
Unconsciously, yes!
Good to know that.
Granted heroin hasn’t been around all that long, but still, opium
has and if
one does enough of it the effects are remarkably similar to heroin. Were
those who used it for the thousands upon thousands of years for so many
different reasons wrong after all? So if our use of this and other
substances was so wrong, how in the heck did we manage to evolve so far
along then?
Preston, man, you’ll have to just wait and watch it all happen.
Evolution is not a linear process, it goes on in leaps and bounds and it’s
starting to leap up a bit now. When I saw the response in Europe to the
tsunami disaster it was obvious to me that stuff was really changing. When
people who ten years ago couldn’t give a shit start throwing their money
out
to people they don’t even know in that way you know consciousness is
really
shifting gears. Yes, we experience life as being something that’s
happening
to the personal me, but underneath that it’s just consciousness and it’s
depersonalized. When it starts moving it just moves. The experience of
having a personal identity shifts with it. That’s how you get
prohibitionist
or pro-enforced-therapy movements. And when it starts to move like this
there develops a huge subconscious craving for light, for awareness. What
you see in Germany with the shifting attitude to addiction is just the
beginning. And it’s good! I mean, who wants to be a junkie forever, for
fuck’s sake?
So, people want to be able to choose how they come off drugs? Fair enough,
but choose now! Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man. Maktab, it is written. And sealed with the seven seals and
all that stuff. Give yourself a break and move away from it now. If you
find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at yourself.
It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it out.
Love
Nick
Gawd damn , I’ve been biting my tongue.
You folks should feel privledged to witness first hand the face of the ‘new
age nazi movement’. Nick, I have to thank you for vindicating me in my
learned response to people who pass out their sanctimonious verbiage like
car salesmen.
Listen ‘ere folks, Nick is alright…..a wee misdirected, but he will grow
out of it.
The reason we all go grey when we age ….and evolve through personal
experience…is because it helps us understand that there just aren’t black
and white answers anymore …….shades of grey…..different prespectives.
I think someone should volunteer to go ‘underground’ and check out Nick’s
peace and love camp and report back to the group.
…….Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 8:56:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
So, people want to be able to choose how they come off drugs? Fair
enough,
but choose now! Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man. Maktab, it is written. And sealed with the seven seals
and
all that stuff. Give yourself a break and move away from it now. If you
find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at
yourself.
It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it
out.
my 2 cents…
heroin caused me a lot of misery to be certain, but i remain unconvinced
that heroin is “bad”. i don’t believe a substance can be bad in and of
itself; it’s a matter of who is using the drug, and why. in many contexts,
heroin use is problematic, and often seriously so. but it’s still a matter
of context. heroin certainly isn’t devoid of benefits, if it was, nobody
would take it in the first place. at some point, the majority of heroin
users realise that the benefits are outweighed by the negative effects;
but, and this is the key point i think, that balance is different for
every individual. it is presumptuous to think that what seems right for
oneself is also right for everyone else.
i support encouraging people to develop a sense of clarity when they
approach this decisional balance, otherwise i wouldn’t be going into
psychology…. but in the end, it’s the individual’s own perceptions that
matter. if someone believes they are better off on heroin, not only is
that their right as an autonomous individual, but it could very well be
true. being that they are the ones inhabiting their own bodies, they’re in
the best position to know.
or, put more simply, one man’s poison is another man’s medicine…
j0n
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Date: January 26, 2005 at 7:37:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It
just bores me when junkies try and intellectually defend being junkies.<
It irritates the hell out of me (not to mention leaves me a bit naseous) when other people try and defend their prejudice against “junkies” as somehow honorable or righteous, when it’s not either.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
—–Original Message—–
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto:captkirk@kol.co.nz]
Sent: 26 January 2005 22:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
I guess I have met a few “drug users” who are dull and a drag,
but I’ve also
met some “drug users” who are creative as all hell (whereas
BEFORE they used
drugs, they were a Joe Schmo, going along with the 9 to 5’ers, social
climbers oh yehhhhhh) (punk song from 80’s) they’re working on what THEY
want to do, they create music, art all of which is stunning and amazing…
they’re brilliant to talk to…. I mean look at wassis name… William
Burroughs?? Would you call him a drag???? I don’t think so!!! So
drug users
are ALL so dull…….. but some are! But then again, some non drug users
are a drag…… geeee I’m so confused now!@!!!!
Over to you……………………….NICK!!!!! :o)
Luff heapz
Kirk
Like where did I say all drug users were a drag? I never said that, babe. It
just bores me when junkies try and intellectually defend being junkies. That
is just SO drag. Love Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 9:08 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
> —–Original Message—–
> From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 January 2005 17:51
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
>
>
>
>
>
> Some Ibo Vids:
> http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/archive.cgi?q=ibogaine
>
> “stick mY dick in tha mashed potatoes” sound comes
> from ISBN: 724382859925 Trk 3
> Fair Use Contact?
> Try http://capitalrecords.com/contact.htm
> to see, I dunno.
> I figure they got it from someone else so Why Not?
>
> Nick, I think the term “fencing in” comes across a
> little threatening and sounds like coming from a
> source that doesn’t take it’s own perspective with a
> grain of salt. (Umm..I do that too if you can’t
> already tell)
>
Well, it doesn’t threaten me personally. How you see it is up to you, for
sure.
> I couldn’t agree with “Hi Feds”Preston more re: it’s
> not as simple as heroin bad/ibogaine good, because,
> well, it’s just not.
>
OK, thank you for pointing that out.
> Some almost conclusions I have reached through My
> Limited experience is Prohibition of “drugs” (Ibo AND
> Heroin too) caused/causes MUCH more damage then the
> “drugs” themselves could ever cause. Way More. All
> the way down to
> Invoking Shame
> Because they have some sort of self percieved moral
> authority to invoke it.
>
> In case you haven’t noticed, Junkies don’t like being
> told what to do, just like non junkies.
>
Yes, but they rarely, in my experience, have the guts to really put their
negativity out. Not necessarily through any innate personality
disfunction,
but because using heroin blocks expression. Because you use h you’re too
numbed out to express your authority trips and thus they stay forever, and
that makes for a seriously DULL planet. That’s why I advocate
dragging this
stuff out into the light of day, kicking and screaming if
necessary. If you
really put out an authority trip you can see how, underneath it,
you’re just
keeping yourself small and safe, then you can move beyond this
position and
expand. Whilst you’re too gauched out to even express a feeling properly
nothing can move and you become, imo, one serious fucking drag.
> I like people to give me my options then let me
> decide.
>
> How am I not supposed to see this as scarry?:
>
> “a fencing-in tool”
>
> “I think some people should just be
> dragged
> out of their homes and made to take part.”
>
>
> I couldn’t disagree more with what is written here:
> “I mean ibogaine IS
> fencing-in,
> basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose
> it.”
>
> HOw can you use fencing-in and liberating
> consciousness together like that, dat dunt muk scaunse
> 2 me mohn.
> You mention treatment centers that do this, well ok.
> If they were that sucessful at it we wouldn’t be here
> talking about Ibogaine.
>
Study the process of initiation, man. It’s all the same principle –
containment. Really, study it. You’ll see the same pattern
everywhere. It’s
“fixation” in alchemy, crucifixion in Christianity, iboga in Bwiti – and
it’s all the same process. Mutability, Fixation, Cardinality (Godliness).
Maybe if you do enough smack you can miss it in this lifetime but, rest
assured, we’ll get you in the next (if you get one)! It’s Huis
Clos, no way
out! Really! We’ll sucker you in with some nice spacey chit-chat about
ibogaine being a psychoactive, then when the exit is blocked, Wham! Now
you’re gonna look at who you are, like it or not!
> People aren’t bad people just because they eat
> chocolate, Same with Opiate users (moderate or
> heavy).
> I have been “clean” <– see even that term is loaded
> with SHame, to imply that if not meeting some
> determined (by who) formula that I am somehow
> “unclean”, can we say bRa1NwA$h1nG?
Look, I’m not laying SHame on you. You’re doing that to yourself.
> Anyways without Methadone or opiates for going on 2
> years now. I am Cynical as FUck, always have been. I
> don’t think that just because I choose not to, that
> everybody in the world has to stop too, again, not
> taking own perspective with a grain of salt.
> I don’t think hugging/saying fuck off, fuzzy
> feelings/resentful feeling, some oneiric Christ
> experience, overanalysing or underanaylsing is NOT
> required, each has different goals when taking ibo.
>
> If I could be arrested and given my prescribed
> medication I wouldn’t think twice about getting on and
> staying on for life, but that ain’t how it is, so I
> don’t.
>
> Nick, I don’t really have a problem with what you
> are saying, I just think their may be a more workable
> way to communicate what you are trying to get across,
> that’s all.
>
But I’m actually not trying to get anything across.
with love
Nick
> “I like it when I can see the whole person,”
> You have to have trust first. Making LOve and
> Fucking are not the same thing. If you want to see
> the whole person…use the terms “ego” and “fencing
> in” More More More, or not.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ok enough of dat.
>
> <tucking sheets ‘n bed>
>
> May I hear the Blue Pearl Story Please?
>
>
>
>
>
> [* *]
> (_)
> Sp^ce k0k0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 7:34:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man.<
I’m not taking heroin.
Though there have been a couple times over the last few years where I have relented and bought a bag or three, those times were extremely few and far between and are a while past now. Not a year yet, but over half at least, probably closer to nine months or so since last time I did that.
If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it out.<
You’re missing the point Nick.
The scary thing about your emails is that you seem to be serious, that you support forcing other people to submit to your views by force. This is mostly scary to me because I’m just now discovering this, and now I’m concerned because I don’t know what I’ve divulged on list you may have read and will one day decide to rat me or someone else out over because you think it would do us good to have someone drag us out of our homes and teach us the better, or your way anyway. That’s what scares me, not looking harder at myself. I don’t have a single problem with that particular issue, of looking deep and hard within myself, and that you might think I do have issue with that is another thing that leaves me shaking my head, considering just how open I am and always have been about myself and my feelings and emotions on this list. The reaction is notr the looking inside myself, it’s you thinking it’s ok to force others to your way of living and thinking. That’s a terrible way to go through life in my opinion, and I’m glad I’m not somehow under your control. That’s a fate I am glad I’ve so far escaped and hope I continue to do so for a long, long time.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 5:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 21:56
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>As the overall level of consciousness on the planet starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the
least hip thing
imaginable.<
So the prohibitionists are acting as agents of a higher world
conciousness.
Unconsciously, yes!
Good to know that.
Granted heroin hasn’t been around all that long, but still, opium
has and if
one does enough of it the effects are remarkably similar to heroin. Were
those who used it for the thousands upon thousands of years for so many
different reasons wrong after all? So if our use of this and other
substances was so wrong, how in the heck did we manage to evolve so far
along then?
Preston, man, you’ll have to just wait and watch it all happen.
Evolution is not a linear process, it goes on in leaps and bounds and it’s
starting to leap up a bit now. When I saw the response in Europe to the
tsunami disaster it was obvious to me that stuff was really changing. When
people who ten years ago couldn’t give a shit start throwing their money out
to people they don’t even know in that way you know consciousness is really
shifting gears. Yes, we experience life as being something that’s happening
to the personal me, but underneath that it’s just consciousness and it’s
depersonalized. When it starts moving it just moves. The experience of
having a personal identity shifts with it. That’s how you get prohibitionist
or pro-enforced-therapy movements. And when it starts to move like this
there develops a huge subconscious craving for light, for awareness. What
you see in Germany with the shifting attitude to addiction is just the
beginning. And it’s good! I mean, who wants to be a junkie forever, for
fuck’s sake?
So, people want to be able to choose how they come off drugs? Fair enough,
but choose now! Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man. Maktab, it is written. And sealed with the seven seals and
all that stuff. Give yourself a break and move away from it now. If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it out.
Love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m not going to eat any mashed potatoes from now on!!!!
Date: January 26, 2005 at 7:05:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
He who Shouts Loudest, Gets Puncheded in the Headeth Firstest!
For, I am God, and that is My Way
;o)
Kiss hugs
Koik
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 12:36 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m not going to eat any mashed potatoes from now
on!!!!
—–Original Message—–
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto:captkirk@kol.co.nz]
Sent: 26 January 2005 23:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m not going to eat any mashed potatoes from
now on!!!!
Well, Babe, you didn’t really Not say it.
OK, so if I haven’t like categorically denied something then I’ve actually
said it? Ok, that sounds fair. I can go with that.
..and I have to say, you
remind me
of some people I know who have become born again christians…. and when I
meditate, I should try calling on Jesus Christ. And they think they’re
right. And then there’s all these people out there with different view
points and different healing modalities, and they say they’re right, so I
have to ask, who’s right here?
Why, whoever shouts the loudest of course. That’s God’s way. Nick x
So that’s when I came to the realisation, there is no wrong and
there is no
right (cept when it comes to me, I’m always right even when I’m
wrong.. blah
blahblah)
And I’m exactly where I’m supposed to be.
I can only hope and pray that when the fascists DO take over and
force me to
do things against my will (that’s supposed to be FREE WILL) that I am in a
place where I will be left alone.
It’s all a journey…. good and bad, the only reason I’m still here is I
want to see what happens next………….(cue Jaws style music….)
Wassa Intulleckyouall?
Kirk :oP
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m not going to eat any mashed potatoes from now on!!!!
Date: January 26, 2005 at 6:36:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto:captkirk@kol.co.nz]
Sent: 26 January 2005 23:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m not going to eat any mashed potatoes from
now on!!!!
Well, Babe, you didn’t really Not say it.
OK, so if I haven’t like categorically denied something then I’ve actually
said it? Ok, that sounds fair. I can go with that.
..and I have to say, you
remind me
of some people I know who have become born again christians…. and when I
meditate, I should try calling on Jesus Christ. And they think they’re
right. And then there’s all these people out there with different view
points and different healing modalities, and they say they’re right, so I
have to ask, who’s right here?
Why, whoever shouts the loudest of course. That’s God’s way. Nick x
So that’s when I came to the realisation, there is no wrong and
there is no
right (cept when it comes to me, I’m always right even when I’m
wrong.. blah
blahblah)
And I’m exactly where I’m supposed to be.
I can only hope and pray that when the fascists DO take over and
force me to
do things against my will (that’s supposed to be FREE WILL) that I am in a
place where I will be left alone.
It’s all a journey…. good and bad, the only reason I’m still here is I
want to see what happens next………….(cue Jaws style music….)
Wassa Intulleckyouall?
Kirk :oP
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m not going to eat any mashed potatoes from now on!!!!
Date: January 26, 2005 at 6:19:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well, Babe, you didn’t really Not say it…and I have to say, you remind me
of some people I know who have become born again christians…. and when I
meditate, I should try calling on Jesus Christ. And they think they’re
right. And then there’s all these people out there with different view
points and different healing modalities, and they say they’re right, so I
have to ask, who’s right here?
So that’s when I came to the realisation, there is no wrong and there is no
right (cept when it comes to me, I’m always right even when I’m wrong.. blah
blahblah)
And I’m exactly where I’m supposed to be.
I can only hope and pray that when the fascists DO take over and force me to
do things against my will (that’s supposed to be FREE WILL) that I am in a
place where I will be left alone.
It’s all a journey…. good and bad, the only reason I’m still here is I
want to see what happens next………….(cue Jaws style music….)
Wassa Intulleckyouall?
Kirk :oP
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 11:59 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
—–Original Message—–
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto:captkirk@kol.co.nz]
Sent: 26 January 2005 22:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
I guess I have met a few “drug users” who are dull and a drag,
but I’ve also
met some “drug users” who are creative as all hell (whereas
BEFORE they used
drugs, they were a Joe Schmo, going along with the 9 to 5’ers, social
climbers oh yehhhhhh) (punk song from 80’s) they’re working on what THEY
want to do, they create music, art all of which is stunning and amazing…
they’re brilliant to talk to…. I mean look at wassis name… William
Burroughs?? Would you call him a drag???? I don’t think so!!! So
drug users
are ALL so dull…….. but some are! But then again, some non drug users
are a drag…… geeee I’m so confused now!@!!!!
Over to you……………………….NICK!!!!! :o)
Luff heapz
Kirk
Like where did I say all drug users were a drag? I never said that, babe. It
just bores me when junkies try and intellectually defend being junkies. That
is just SO drag. Love Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 9:08 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Some Ibo Vids:
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/archive.cgi?q=ibogaine
“stick mY dick in tha mashed potatoes” sound comes
from ISBN: 724382859925 Trk 3
Fair Use Contact?
Try http://capitalrecords.com/contact.htm
to see, I dunno.
I figure they got it from someone else so Why Not?
Nick, I think the term “fencing in” comes across a
little threatening and sounds like coming from a
source that doesn’t take it’s own perspective with a
grain of salt. (Umm..I do that too if you can’t
already tell)
Well, it doesn’t threaten me personally. How you see it is up to you, for
sure.
I couldn’t agree with “Hi Feds”Preston more re: it’s
not as simple as heroin bad/ibogaine good, because,
well, it’s just not.
OK, thank you for pointing that out.
Some almost conclusions I have reached through My
Limited experience is Prohibition of “drugs” (Ibo AND
Heroin too) caused/causes MUCH more damage then the
“drugs” themselves could ever cause. Way More. All
the way down to
Invoking Shame
Because they have some sort of self percieved moral
authority to invoke it.
In case you haven’t noticed, Junkies don’t like being
told what to do, just like non junkies.
Yes, but they rarely, in my experience, have the guts to really put their
negativity out. Not necessarily through any innate personality
disfunction,
but because using heroin blocks expression. Because you use h you’re too
numbed out to express your authority trips and thus they stay forever, and
that makes for a seriously DULL planet. That’s why I advocate
dragging this
stuff out into the light of day, kicking and screaming if
necessary. If you
really put out an authority trip you can see how, underneath it,
you’re just
keeping yourself small and safe, then you can move beyond this
position and
expand. Whilst you’re too gauched out to even express a feeling properly
nothing can move and you become, imo, one serious fucking drag.
I like people to give me my options then let me
decide.
How am I not supposed to see this as scarry?:
“a fencing-in tool”
“I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.”
I couldn’t disagree more with what is written here:
“I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose
it.”
HOw can you use fencing-in and liberating
consciousness together like that, dat dunt muk scaunse
2 me mohn.
You mention treatment centers that do this, well ok.
If they were that sucessful at it we wouldn’t be here
talking about Ibogaine.
Study the process of initiation, man. It’s all the same principle –
containment. Really, study it. You’ll see the same pattern
everywhere. It’s
“fixation” in alchemy, crucifixion in Christianity, iboga in Bwiti – and
it’s all the same process. Mutability, Fixation, Cardinality (Godliness).
Maybe if you do enough smack you can miss it in this lifetime but, rest
assured, we’ll get you in the next (if you get one)! It’s Huis
Clos, no way
out! Really! We’ll sucker you in with some nice spacey chit-chat about
ibogaine being a psychoactive, then when the exit is blocked, Wham! Now
you’re gonna look at who you are, like it or not!
People aren’t bad people just because they eat
chocolate, Same with Opiate users (moderate or
heavy).
I have been “clean” <– see even that term is loaded
with SHame, to imply that if not meeting some
determined (by who) formula that I am somehow
“unclean”, can we say bRa1NwA$h1nG?
Look, I’m not laying SHame on you. You’re doing that to yourself.
Anyways without Methadone or opiates for going on 2
years now. I am Cynical as FUck, always have been. I
don’t think that just because I choose not to, that
everybody in the world has to stop too, again, not
taking own perspective with a grain of salt.
I don’t think hugging/saying fuck off, fuzzy
feelings/resentful feeling, some oneiric Christ
experience, overanalysing or underanaylsing is NOT
required, each has different goals when taking ibo.
If I could be arrested and given my prescribed
medication I wouldn’t think twice about getting on and
staying on for life, but that ain’t how it is, so I
don’t.
Nick, I don’t really have a problem with what you
are saying, I just think their may be a more workable
way to communicate what you are trying to get across,
that’s all.
But I’m actually not trying to get anything across.
with love
Nick
“I like it when I can see the whole person,”
You have to have trust first. Making LOve and
Fucking are not the same thing. If you want to see
the whole person…use the terms “ego” and “fencing
in” More More More, or not.
Ok enough of dat.
<tucking sheets ‘n bed>
May I hear the Blue Pearl Story Please?
[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:59:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto:captkirk@kol.co.nz]
Sent: 26 January 2005 22:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
I guess I have met a few “drug users” who are dull and a drag,
but I’ve also
met some “drug users” who are creative as all hell (whereas
BEFORE they used
drugs, they were a Joe Schmo, going along with the 9 to 5’ers, social
climbers oh yehhhhhh) (punk song from 80’s) they’re working on what THEY
want to do, they create music, art all of which is stunning and amazing…
they’re brilliant to talk to…. I mean look at wassis name… William
Burroughs?? Would you call him a drag???? I don’t think so!!! So
drug users
are ALL so dull…….. but some are! But then again, some non drug users
are a drag…… geeee I’m so confused now!@!!!!
Over to you……………………….NICK!!!!! :o)
Luff heapz
Kirk
Like where did I say all drug users were a drag? I never said that, babe. It
just bores me when junkies try and intellectually defend being junkies. That
is just SO drag. Love Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 9:08 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Some Ibo Vids:
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/archive.cgi?q=ibogaine
“stick mY dick in tha mashed potatoes” sound comes
from ISBN: 724382859925 Trk 3
Fair Use Contact?
Try http://capitalrecords.com/contact.htm
to see, I dunno.
I figure they got it from someone else so Why Not?
Nick, I think the term “fencing in” comes across a
little threatening and sounds like coming from a
source that doesn’t take it’s own perspective with a
grain of salt. (Umm..I do that too if you can’t
already tell)
Well, it doesn’t threaten me personally. How you see it is up to you, for
sure.
I couldn’t agree with “Hi Feds”Preston more re: it’s
not as simple as heroin bad/ibogaine good, because,
well, it’s just not.
OK, thank you for pointing that out.
Some almost conclusions I have reached through My
Limited experience is Prohibition of “drugs” (Ibo AND
Heroin too) caused/causes MUCH more damage then the
“drugs” themselves could ever cause. Way More. All
the way down to
Invoking Shame
Because they have some sort of self percieved moral
authority to invoke it.
In case you haven’t noticed, Junkies don’t like being
told what to do, just like non junkies.
Yes, but they rarely, in my experience, have the guts to really put their
negativity out. Not necessarily through any innate personality
disfunction,
but because using heroin blocks expression. Because you use h you’re too
numbed out to express your authority trips and thus they stay forever, and
that makes for a seriously DULL planet. That’s why I advocate
dragging this
stuff out into the light of day, kicking and screaming if
necessary. If you
really put out an authority trip you can see how, underneath it,
you’re just
keeping yourself small and safe, then you can move beyond this
position and
expand. Whilst you’re too gauched out to even express a feeling properly
nothing can move and you become, imo, one serious fucking drag.
I like people to give me my options then let me
decide.
How am I not supposed to see this as scarry?:
“a fencing-in tool”
“I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.”
I couldn’t disagree more with what is written here:
“I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose
it.”
HOw can you use fencing-in and liberating
consciousness together like that, dat dunt muk scaunse
2 me mohn.
You mention treatment centers that do this, well ok.
If they were that sucessful at it we wouldn’t be here
talking about Ibogaine.
Study the process of initiation, man. It’s all the same principle –
containment. Really, study it. You’ll see the same pattern
everywhere. It’s
“fixation” in alchemy, crucifixion in Christianity, iboga in Bwiti – and
it’s all the same process. Mutability, Fixation, Cardinality (Godliness).
Maybe if you do enough smack you can miss it in this lifetime but, rest
assured, we’ll get you in the next (if you get one)! It’s Huis
Clos, no way
out! Really! We’ll sucker you in with some nice spacey chit-chat about
ibogaine being a psychoactive, then when the exit is blocked, Wham! Now
you’re gonna look at who you are, like it or not!
People aren’t bad people just because they eat
chocolate, Same with Opiate users (moderate or
heavy).
I have been “clean” <– see even that term is loaded
with SHame, to imply that if not meeting some
determined (by who) formula that I am somehow
“unclean”, can we say bRa1NwA$h1nG?
Look, I’m not laying SHame on you. You’re doing that to yourself.
Anyways without Methadone or opiates for going on 2
years now. I am Cynical as FUck, always have been. I
don’t think that just because I choose not to, that
everybody in the world has to stop too, again, not
taking own perspective with a grain of salt.
I don’t think hugging/saying fuck off, fuzzy
feelings/resentful feeling, some oneiric Christ
experience, overanalysing or underanaylsing is NOT
required, each has different goals when taking ibo.
If I could be arrested and given my prescribed
medication I wouldn’t think twice about getting on and
staying on for life, but that ain’t how it is, so I
don’t.
Nick, I don’t really have a problem with what you
are saying, I just think their may be a more workable
way to communicate what you are trying to get across,
that’s all.
But I’m actually not trying to get anything across.
with love
Nick
“I like it when I can see the whole person,”
You have to have trust first. Making LOve and
Fucking are not the same thing. If you want to see
the whole person…use the terms “ego” and “fencing
in” More More More, or not.
Ok enough of dat.
<tucking sheets ‘n bed>
May I hear the Blue Pearl Story Please?
[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] how to wash a man’s brain.
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:52:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ok everybody, it’s been way to full on here…… so here’s one for you gals out there……
How to Wash a Man’s Brain.
(Hope it comes thru ok)
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:48:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 21:56
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
As the overall level of consciousness on the planet starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the
least hip thing
imaginable.<
So the prohibitionists are acting as agents of a higher world
conciousness.
Unconsciously, yes!
Good to know that.
Granted heroin hasn’t been around all that long, but still, opium
has and if
one does enough of it the effects are remarkably similar to heroin. Were
those who used it for the thousands upon thousands of years for so many
different reasons wrong after all? So if our use of this and other
substances was so wrong, how in the heck did we manage to evolve so far
along then?
Preston, man, you’ll have to just wait and watch it all happen.
Evolution is not a linear process, it goes on in leaps and bounds and it’s
starting to leap up a bit now. When I saw the response in Europe to the
tsunami disaster it was obvious to me that stuff was really changing. When
people who ten years ago couldn’t give a shit start throwing their money out
to people they don’t even know in that way you know consciousness is really
shifting gears. Yes, we experience life as being something that’s happening
to the personal me, but underneath that it’s just consciousness and it’s
depersonalized. When it starts moving it just moves. The experience of
having a personal identity shifts with it. That’s how you get prohibitionist
or pro-enforced-therapy movements. And when it starts to move like this
there develops a huge subconscious craving for light, for awareness. What
you see in Germany with the shifting attitude to addiction is just the
beginning. And it’s good! I mean, who wants to be a junkie forever, for
fuck’s sake?
So, people want to be able to choose how they come off drugs? Fair enough,
but choose now! Get your shit together and do it. Heroin’s days are
numbered, man. Maktab, it is written. And sealed with the seven seals and
all that stuff. Give yourself a break and move away from it now. If you find
these emails scarey then, fuck man, recognize that – you get scared by
emails suggesting you’re gonna be pushed into looking harder at yourself. It
provokes a big reaction, look at that. You’re an aware guy. Check it out.
Love
Nick
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:47:08 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Come now sara, did you not know????? GOD IS A JUNKIE!!!! I mean come on,
who else would say “It’s all good” They just left out the “maaaan”
And come on, again… have you read the bible?????? God was definitely
stoned when he wrote/dictated that book!!!!
—–Original Message—–
From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 11:12 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
“So if our use of this and other substances was so wrong, how in the heck
did we manage to evolve so far along then?”
Magic.Imagine.
Did our creator made a mistake creating us with the abilities to find drugs
and get addicted to them?
Why God said in the Holy Book that “it was all good” if it isn’t.
Is there someone scamming us? So maybe they were aliens who created us by
mistake? It is all a big mistake, God shouldn’t have created drugs or Humans
And then he could say “it is all good”. But then who am I to tell God what
to do or not to do, Hey, and if we are all part of the same one
Then who is who with the right to tell God Her/his/us what is the mistake
And how to correct it, Let’s go back to paradise and we never have to get
high again.
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 26 januari 2005 22:56
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
As the overall level of consciousness on the planet starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the least hip thing
imaginable.<
So the prohibitionists are acting as agents of a higher world conciousness.
Good to know that.
Granted heroin hasn’t been around all that long, but still, opium has and if
one does enough of it the effects are remarkably similar to heroin. Were
those who used it for the thousands upon thousands of years for so many
different reasons wrong after all? So if our use of this and other
substances was so wrong, how in the heck did we manage to evolve so far
along then?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 20:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick asked >What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make
the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just
be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
<
What?!
Um, I would prefer not to hang out with a general fucking drag,
but who am I
to take that to the next level. For crying out loud, I find most drunks
total freakin’ drags Nick, but I don’t wanna lock ’em up and make
them face
whatever. I certain do not agree that it would be great to have
some social
laws for people who don’t want to participate in life, I personally find
that horrifying and completely batty.
Again, no offense, but wow, that’s pretty extreme. I’m actually
completely
the opposite, feeling quite the Libertarian when it comes to this sort of
thing.
And I’m sure there are plenty of people who would like to
drag you out
of your home and lock you away for daring even talk about, much less use
such a dangerous and criminal mistake of the lord as ibogaine. (I use
imagined prohibitionist terminology, not my own here.) They’ve already
written some nifty social laws I suppose we could emulate- force everyone
out of their homes, to take ibogaine and face their stuff. Egad,
that’s so
damned not right and downright un-American (again, I jest ’cause
it’s just
too damned America really) what you are saying here. I’m amazed. I think
I’ve not been paying attention to what certain people have been
posting on
this here list.
I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself.<
I gotta just say Nick that while I enjoyed ibogaine and
definitely plan on
going through it at least another time (maybe a lot of other time- won’t
committ to that yet, instead taking it one trip at a time), I didn’t need
ibogaine or any other drug to liberate my consciousness- my “liberated
conciousness” was what lead me to try drugs in the first place,
at least so
I believe. I use various drugs to various reasons, and ibogaine
is one more
drug to use for one more (or more than one, I will definitely
grant it that)
reason too.
I live in a community I love and I work and I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.<
Funny, so do I, and yeah, I tend to think I celebrate existence
to the very
best of my ability, so I’m not sure what your point is.
But I’m still having trouble with the whole “let’s drag [some? So who
decides who is a drag and who is not Nick, and what constitutes
drag? Would
drag be defined universally or would we take into consideration cultural
mores and habits? Woudl certain clothing styles or musical tastes be
included in this? Or religious or political viewpoints?
Hi Preston,
I mean the thing about dragging people out into the streets will probably
take another couple of decades to become really viable, the way I see it.
But it’ll come for sure if people don’t respond in other ways and show
themselves more. As the overall level of consciousness on the planet
starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the least hip
thing
imaginable. In any rising awareness situation this is something of an
inevitability for analgesics are basically anti-awareness.
I mean, you CAN fight for your rights as junkies, but the problem with
that
is that if you really put your position out fully you’re inevitably going
to
find it transmuted, your awareness will rise through the very action of
really fighting for something, full on with all your energy. Basically,
heroin can’t win, for it relies on the user never going totally into a
feeling to maintain its hold on the body. When society starts to move
towards pushing users more out into the open then a lot of change will
occur
spontaneously for the very action of fully resisting that change actually
catalyses it even more strongly.
love
Nick
It appear
exactly so
from what I’m reading into your words. Sheeze, this is so messed
up, really,
I’m having trouble even wrapping my head around the idea that you might
really be serious) people out of their homes and force them” to
do anything.
I think I’d be very unhappy to see you arrive at my door with
that attitude.
It would lead to very, very unpleasentry and lots of non-huggy and
ingrateness for sure.
I wish sometimes I was more of a cretin so I could curse and fume and not
feel stupid for doing so, because occasionally I’m hit with a brick like
this email from out of nowhere and I really want to express my
amazement in
more gutteral, street lingo, but there are ladies present and all that,
so….
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 14:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into
you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then
I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think
it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats,
that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go
for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and
a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to
start
living that.<
Nick, that’s a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone
might have
enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the
direction they
feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to
force me to do
so…oh, wait, that’s already happening with the whole stinkin’
war on some
drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as
loving or at
least caring as you come across being.
Hi Preston,
Well, for me, I like to be able to feel someone, you know. Feel who
they
are, connect with them. I’m not so interested in being
presented with the
drug-edited version of who they are that they want to show the
world. For
sure, we all hide ourselves, drug-users or otherwise, but it’s a drag.
I
like it when I can see the whole person, including all the crazy or bad
shit
they think they have to hide away. Druggies are no different
from anybody
else in this.
And I think a bit of fencing-in is fine. The whole “therapeutic
community”
concept, from Synanon to Phoenix House to Humaniversity, I think it’s
great.
When you’re surrounded by others 24 hours a day, reflecting
your behaviour
back at you, you get to find out who you are pretty quickly –
what you’ll
back down about, what you’ll take a stand about, what you care
about, and
what you’ll let go. The core of Christianity was the same – the whole
crucifixion thing is a metaphor, it means you stay in once place and
you
face your shit, they called it the Fixed Cross in astrology – a few
zillion
incarnations on the Mutable cross, then you’re initiated on the Fixed
cross
and have to look, then, when freed from delusion you get to hang out on
the
Cardinal cross. It’s the same principle throughout mythology and
symbolism –
JC on his cross, Odin on his tree, whatever. Bwiti the same, iboga
initiation means you’re incapacitated on the drug and you have
to look at
yourself. That’s what it’s all about psychologically. I mean,
you can come
towards ibogaine from the whole pain-management and neurochemical
perspective and that’s totally fine. But make no mistake, when you
start
dealing with larger doses you’re dealing with a fencing-in tool par
excellence. This is a strange place to hang out if you’re not into
fencing-in!
Again, you wrote >I’m not advocating that junkies are made social
scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go
for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and
a sign of
rising world awareness.<
This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping
their use, I
would hope you would leave them alone (unless they’re breaking
into your
home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means,
take action
and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to
force others to
curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you
competely
shocks me and saddens me.
What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for
people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and
Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m
pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want
to try and
shift me from it.<
Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it,
unless you
try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your
viewpoint?
Then I’ll not only shift you, I’ll probably fight you tooth
and nail with
all my heart.
To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they
mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You
have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let
healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not
that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” <
Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and
“go a little
deeper” is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest,
at least not
for me. It’s too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment
plans. Ick as
hell.
Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from
ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking
ibogaine and
still get something (beneficial I mean- I’m not talking about the
“ah shit,
I’m running low” stuff) from opiates.
Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling
encroached
upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad,
pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don’t know, not
me? To me it
simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big
white horse and
looking down from your self-described position of enlightened
enlightenment
and saying how much better you are than those who still want to
use opiates
for whatever reason. That’s the message I’m gradually getting
from you Nick,
and I must say I’m a bit surprised to read from anyone on a
list dealing
with ibogaine that they’re into the idea of forcing people
into fenced in
enclosures because they use the wrong drugs.
Well, fencing-in stuff I talked about above. I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let
it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself. And I’m not
enlightened,
I
don’t even know what it means. I live in a community I love and
I work and
I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.
with love
Nick
Damn, that’s scary, as I’ve
already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite
pointedly blunt here, but I’m not actually feeling hostile in
your directon
Nick, but rather, I’m very strongly disagreeing with you and
attempting to
explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary
and to me,
well, wrong.
;-))
But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you
don’t ever have
any power over me, I won’t ever want to “shift you away” or
stop you from
expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you,
nor would I
want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force
you to look
deeper. I’d love to read from you, “oh, you know what, yer
right Preston,
what was I thinking,” but don’t expect to see that, and don’t
particularly
care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have
enough power to
force me to do anything.
The whole notion that it’s ok to force others into life situations
because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary
and facist so
far as I define fascism.
It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it
showed me
my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
interract with
people but not communicate to them what I know.<
As the title to one of Disinfo’s books puts it, “Everything
you ‘KNOW’ is
Wrong.”
Nuther ;-))
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:39:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I guess I have met a few “drug users” who are dull and a drag, but I’ve also
met some “drug users” who are creative as all hell (whereas BEFORE they used
drugs, they were a Joe Schmo, going along with the 9 to 5’ers, social
climbers oh yehhhhhh) (punk song from 80’s) they’re working on what THEY
want to do, they create music, art all of which is stunning and amazing…
they’re brilliant to talk to…. I mean look at wassis name… William
Burroughs?? Would you call him a drag???? I don’t think so!!! So drug users
are ALL so dull…….. but some are! But then again, some non drug users
are a drag…… geeee I’m so confused now!@!!!!
Over to you……………………….NICK!!!!! :o)
Luff heapz
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 9:08 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Some Ibo Vids:
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/archive.cgi?q=ibogaine
“stick mY dick in tha mashed potatoes” sound comes
from ISBN: 724382859925 Trk 3
Fair Use Contact?
Try http://capitalrecords.com/contact.htm
to see, I dunno.
I figure they got it from someone else so Why Not?
Nick, I think the term “fencing in” comes across a
little threatening and sounds like coming from a
source that doesn’t take it’s own perspective with a
grain of salt. (Umm..I do that too if you can’t
already tell)
Well, it doesn’t threaten me personally. How you see it is up to you, for
sure.
I couldn’t agree with “Hi Feds”Preston more re: it’s
not as simple as heroin bad/ibogaine good, because,
well, it’s just not.
OK, thank you for pointing that out.
Some almost conclusions I have reached through My
Limited experience is Prohibition of “drugs” (Ibo AND
Heroin too) caused/causes MUCH more damage then the
“drugs” themselves could ever cause. Way More. All
the way down to
Invoking Shame
Because they have some sort of self percieved moral
authority to invoke it.
In case you haven’t noticed, Junkies don’t like being
told what to do, just like non junkies.
Yes, but they rarely, in my experience, have the guts to really put their
negativity out. Not necessarily through any innate personality disfunction,
but because using heroin blocks expression. Because you use h you’re too
numbed out to express your authority trips and thus they stay forever, and
that makes for a seriously DULL planet. That’s why I advocate dragging this
stuff out into the light of day, kicking and screaming if necessary. If you
really put out an authority trip you can see how, underneath it, you’re just
keeping yourself small and safe, then you can move beyond this position and
expand. Whilst you’re too gauched out to even express a feeling properly
nothing can move and you become, imo, one serious fucking drag.
I like people to give me my options then let me
decide.
How am I not supposed to see this as scarry?:
“a fencing-in tool”
“I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.”
I couldn’t disagree more with what is written here:
“I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose
it.”
HOw can you use fencing-in and liberating
consciousness together like that, dat dunt muk scaunse
2 me mohn.
You mention treatment centers that do this, well ok.
If they were that sucessful at it we wouldn’t be here
talking about Ibogaine.
Study the process of initiation, man. It’s all the same principle –
containment. Really, study it. You’ll see the same pattern everywhere. It’s
“fixation” in alchemy, crucifixion in Christianity, iboga in Bwiti – and
it’s all the same process. Mutability, Fixation, Cardinality (Godliness).
Maybe if you do enough smack you can miss it in this lifetime but, rest
assured, we’ll get you in the next (if you get one)! It’s Huis Clos, no way
out! Really! We’ll sucker you in with some nice spacey chit-chat about
ibogaine being a psychoactive, then when the exit is blocked, Wham! Now
you’re gonna look at who you are, like it or not!
People aren’t bad people just because they eat
chocolate, Same with Opiate users (moderate or
heavy).
I have been “clean” <– see even that term is loaded
with SHame, to imply that if not meeting some
determined (by who) formula that I am somehow
“unclean”, can we say bRa1NwA$h1nG?
Look, I’m not laying SHame on you. You’re doing that to yourself.
Anyways without Methadone or opiates for going on 2
years now. I am Cynical as FUck, always have been. I
don’t think that just because I choose not to, that
everybody in the world has to stop too, again, not
taking own perspective with a grain of salt.
I don’t think hugging/saying fuck off, fuzzy
feelings/resentful feeling, some oneiric Christ
experience, overanalysing or underanaylsing is NOT
required, each has different goals when taking ibo.
If I could be arrested and given my prescribed
medication I wouldn’t think twice about getting on and
staying on for life, but that ain’t how it is, so I
don’t.
Nick, I don’t really have a problem with what you
are saying, I just think their may be a more workable
way to communicate what you are trying to get across,
that’s all.
But I’m actually not trying to get anything across.
with love
Nick
“I like it when I can see the whole person,”
You have to have trust first. Making LOve and
Fucking are not the same thing. If you want to see
the whole person…use the terms “ego” and “fencing
in” More More More, or not.
Ok enough of dat.
<tucking sheets ‘n bed>
May I hear the Blue Pearl Story Please?
[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:32:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well, if I got out there and told “The World” all my dirty little secrets, they’d probly LOCK ME UP!!!!!!!!
(Please, don’t take this seriously, I am just JOKING!!! Lol)
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 7:46 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
—–Original Message—– From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com] Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where you wrote:
>>What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
>>don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
>>don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
>>Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
>>out of their homes and made to take part.
Are you serious that you think people should be forced out of their homes and then forced into doing things that other people feel they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious. What if we only get one life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks we should do to really get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet peeves is nosy people who feel that they know what is best for everyone else. Being a drug addict it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage of people who get off hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd can’t wait to feel that spiritual better than thouness when they take you by the hand and guide you through all that nastiness and bring you into the light. I have complete respect for people who spend time helping other people, but I think it is important that they don’t try to force people into that help, because it won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking their noses into your private little thought processes! Why not? What are you hiding?
Also when you said you are anti-heroin, I would like to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you think it ruins people’s lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness. Heroin’s a painkiller, an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness, blocks development.
Everything we take acts like a drug in our brains, from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen is probably the most addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about trying to kick oxygen because our quality of life would be pretty shitty without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for some people, because of a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of awareness, chronic immaturity, laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that their quality of life with opiates is higher than without it. All in all it should be up to the individual, as long as they are not hurting any one else, to decide how they want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think dragging people out of their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean it. Drag all those seedy little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the world out into daylight and get to recognize who you really are. Why not? Confront your fears! Show yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in my life that some people would have loved to have the control to stop me, but I am thankful that they couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more understanding about myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If you can’t be in someone else’s head you can’t know what they want or need, so don’t you think it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t my experience. A lot of people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually need. They’re stuck in repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face and hold down feelings, desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten their image of themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go round and round, and if they come past me I try to encourage them to look deeper in whatever way I can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help people, wait until they decide what they want to change, and then help them, as opposed to forcing what you think is best for them upon them? You always seem so positive and up-beat that I think you are probably great at helping people, but from some of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a little forceful (the whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of course it’s hard to know what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from people. And if someone is coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit from useful feedback, then I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am. About knowing how people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails are a bit limited generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:30:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
lol@you, I love the way you put things…..:o)
Excellent rasta imitation BTW….. I could feeeeeeeeeeeeell the Jah Rasta
Mon!!!!!!!
KOIKY
—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 6:51 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Some Ibo Vids:
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/archive.cgi?q=ibogaine
“stick mY dick in tha mashed potatoes” sound comes
from ISBN: 724382859925 Trk 3
Fair Use Contact?
Try http://capitalrecords.com/contact.htm
to see, I dunno.
I figure they got it from someone else so Why Not?
Nick, I think the term “fencing in” comes across a
little threatening and sounds like coming from a
source that doesn’t take it’s own perspective with a
grain of salt. (Umm..I do that too if you can’t
already tell)
I couldn’t agree with “Hi Feds”Preston more re: it’s
not as simple as heroin bad/ibogaine good, because,
well, it’s just not.
Some almost conclusions I have reached through My
Limited experience is Prohibition of “drugs” (Ibo AND
Heroin too) caused/causes MUCH more damage then the
“drugs” themselves could ever cause. Way More. All
the way down to
Invoking Shame
Because they have some sort of self percieved moral
authority to invoke it.
In case you haven’t noticed, Junkies don’t like being
told what to do, just like non junkies.
I like people to give me my options then let me
decide.
How am I not supposed to see this as scarry?:
“a fencing-in tool”
“I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.”
I couldn’t disagree more with what is written here:
“I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose
it.”
HOw can you use fencing-in and liberating
consciousness together like that, dat dunt muk scaunse
2 me mohn.
You mention treatment centers that do this, well ok.
If they were that sucessful at it we wouldn’t be here
talking about Ibogaine.
People aren’t bad people just because they eat
chocolate, Same with Opiate users (moderate or
heavy).
I have been “clean” <– see even that term is loaded
with SHame, to imply that if not meeting some
determined (by who) formula that I am somehow
“unclean”, can we say bRa1NwA$h1nG?
Anyways without Methadone or opiates for going on 2
years now. I am Cynical as FUck, always have been. I
don’t think that just because I choose not to, that
everybody in the world has to stop too, again, not
taking own perspective with a grain of salt.
I don’t think hugging/saying fuck off, fuzzy
feelings/resentful feeling, some oneiric Christ
experience, overanalysing or underanaylsing is NOT
required, each has different goals when taking ibo.
If I could be arrested and given my prescribed
medication I wouldn’t think twice about getting on and
staying on for life, but that ain’t how it is, so I
don’t.
Nick, I don’t really have a problem with what you
are saying, I just think their may be a more workable
way to communicate what you are trying to get across,
that’s all.
“I like it when I can see the whole person,”
You have to have trust first. Making LOve and
Fucking are not the same thing. If you want to see
the whole person…use the terms “ego” and “fencing
in” More More More, or not.
Ok enough of dat.
<tucking sheets ‘n bed>
May I hear the Blue Pearl Story Please?
[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0
___________________________________________________________
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:23:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thank you for that…..and it would be nice for you if you could find out about taking both…perhaps ask the doc? We have different names for drugs over here, so I have no idea what people are talking about unless I do a websearch! Prozac is about the only commonly named drug. I take something called Aropax, which isn’t as full on as prozac and I’ve had no side effects apart from sleep and appetite (but hey, coffee and cigs get me thru the day! Lol)
Will look into this 5 htp….
Kirk
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: Thursday, 27 January 2005 5:21 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Hey Kirsty,
I take 100 mgs of 5htp in the morning and I have noticed a difference in the levels of my anxiety and depression. But, if I try and remember back to when I was on zoloft I would say that zoloft made more of a difference. In fact, because I get such bad panic attacks during school I am thinking about going back on something like zoloft, at least until I get settled back into the routine of being in class. I’m thinking about decreasing the 5htp, but am a little nervous about it, but I assume that I have to stop taking it if I go back on zoloft. There was an interesting book out awhile ago about 5htp and it explained how much to take for certain problems, but I can’t remember the name of it. I will try looking for it, and I can look something up in it if there is any info that you’d like to know.
— On Tue 01/25, Kirsty Sutherland < captkirk@kol.co.nz > wrote:
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto: captkirk@kol.co.nz]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:57:38 +1300
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Thank you muchly…will look into it (for depression at the mo…)
:o)
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 7:04 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
hi Kirk,
Here is a link to a short, concise description of
5HTP:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/5-htp.htm
5-HTP is the chemical precursor to serotonin. I took
one capsule about 24 hours after my treatment, and
could swear I felt some of the Ibogaine’s effects come
back.
Julie
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:12:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“So if our use of this and other substances was so wrong, how in the heck
did we manage to evolve so far along then?”
Magic.Imagine.
Did our creator made a mistake creating us with the abilities to find drugs
and get addicted to them?
Why God said in the Holy Book that “it was all good” if it isn’t.
Is there someone scamming us? So maybe they were aliens who created us by
mistake? It is all a big mistake, God shouldn’t have created drugs or Humans
And then he could say “it is all good”. But then who am I to tell God what
to do or not to do, Hey, and if we are all part of the same one
Then who is who with the right to tell God Her/his/us what is the mistake
And how to correct it, Let’s go back to paradise and we never have to get
high again.
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 26 januari 2005 22:56
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
As the overall level of consciousness on the planet starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the least hip thing
imaginable.<
So the prohibitionists are acting as agents of a higher world conciousness.
Good to know that.
Granted heroin hasn’t been around all that long, but still, opium has and if
one does enough of it the effects are remarkably similar to heroin. Were
those who used it for the thousands upon thousands of years for so many
different reasons wrong after all? So if our use of this and other
substances was so wrong, how in the heck did we manage to evolve so far
along then?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 20:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick asked >What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make
the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just
be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
<
What?!
Um, I would prefer not to hang out with a general fucking drag,
but who am I
to take that to the next level. For crying out loud, I find most drunks
total freakin’ drags Nick, but I don’t wanna lock ’em up and make
them face
whatever. I certain do not agree that it would be great to have
some social
laws for people who don’t want to participate in life, I personally find
that horrifying and completely batty.
Again, no offense, but wow, that’s pretty extreme. I’m actually
completely
the opposite, feeling quite the Libertarian when it comes to this sort of
thing.
And I’m sure there are plenty of people who would like to
drag you out
of your home and lock you away for daring even talk about, much less use
such a dangerous and criminal mistake of the lord as ibogaine. (I use
imagined prohibitionist terminology, not my own here.) They’ve already
written some nifty social laws I suppose we could emulate- force everyone
out of their homes, to take ibogaine and face their stuff. Egad,
that’s so
damned not right and downright un-American (again, I jest ’cause
it’s just
too damned America really) what you are saying here. I’m amazed. I think
I’ve not been paying attention to what certain people have been
posting on
this here list.
I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself.<
I gotta just say Nick that while I enjoyed ibogaine and
definitely plan on
going through it at least another time (maybe a lot of other time- won’t
committ to that yet, instead taking it one trip at a time), I didn’t need
ibogaine or any other drug to liberate my consciousness- my “liberated
conciousness” was what lead me to try drugs in the first place,
at least so
I believe. I use various drugs to various reasons, and ibogaine
is one more
drug to use for one more (or more than one, I will definitely
grant it that)
reason too.
I live in a community I love and I work and I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.<
Funny, so do I, and yeah, I tend to think I celebrate existence
to the very
best of my ability, so I’m not sure what your point is.
But I’m still having trouble with the whole “let’s drag [some? So who
decides who is a drag and who is not Nick, and what constitutes
drag? Would
drag be defined universally or would we take into consideration cultural
mores and habits? Woudl certain clothing styles or musical tastes be
included in this? Or religious or political viewpoints?
Hi Preston,
I mean the thing about dragging people out into the streets will probably
take another couple of decades to become really viable, the way I see it.
But it’ll come for sure if people don’t respond in other ways and show
themselves more. As the overall level of consciousness on the planet
starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the least hip
thing
imaginable. In any rising awareness situation this is something of an
inevitability for analgesics are basically anti-awareness.
I mean, you CAN fight for your rights as junkies, but the problem with
that
is that if you really put your position out fully you’re inevitably going
to
find it transmuted, your awareness will rise through the very action of
really fighting for something, full on with all your energy. Basically,
heroin can’t win, for it relies on the user never going totally into a
feeling to maintain its hold on the body. When society starts to move
towards pushing users more out into the open then a lot of change will
occur
spontaneously for the very action of fully resisting that change actually
catalyses it even more strongly.
love
Nick
It appear
exactly so
from what I’m reading into your words. Sheeze, this is so messed
up, really,
I’m having trouble even wrapping my head around the idea that you might
really be serious) people out of their homes and force them” to
do anything.
I think I’d be very unhappy to see you arrive at my door with
that attitude.
It would lead to very, very unpleasentry and lots of non-huggy and
ingrateness for sure.
I wish sometimes I was more of a cretin so I could curse and fume and not
feel stupid for doing so, because occasionally I’m hit with a brick like
this email from out of nowhere and I really want to express my
amazement in
more gutteral, street lingo, but there are ladies present and all that,
so….
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 14:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into
you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then
I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think
it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats,
that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go
for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and
a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to
start
living that.<
Nick, that’s a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone
might have
enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the
direction they
feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to
force me to do
so…oh, wait, that’s already happening with the whole stinkin’
war on some
drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as
loving or at
least caring as you come across being.
Hi Preston,
Well, for me, I like to be able to feel someone, you know. Feel who
they
are, connect with them. I’m not so interested in being
presented with the
drug-edited version of who they are that they want to show the
world. For
sure, we all hide ourselves, drug-users or otherwise, but it’s a drag.
I
like it when I can see the whole person, including all the crazy or bad
shit
they think they have to hide away. Druggies are no different
from anybody
else in this.
And I think a bit of fencing-in is fine. The whole “therapeutic
community”
concept, from Synanon to Phoenix House to Humaniversity, I think it’s
great.
When you’re surrounded by others 24 hours a day, reflecting
your behaviour
back at you, you get to find out who you are pretty quickly –
what you’ll
back down about, what you’ll take a stand about, what you care
about, and
what you’ll let go. The core of Christianity was the same – the whole
crucifixion thing is a metaphor, it means you stay in once place and
you
face your shit, they called it the Fixed Cross in astrology – a few
zillion
incarnations on the Mutable cross, then you’re initiated on the Fixed
cross
and have to look, then, when freed from delusion you get to hang out on
the
Cardinal cross. It’s the same principle throughout mythology and
symbolism –
JC on his cross, Odin on his tree, whatever. Bwiti the same, iboga
initiation means you’re incapacitated on the drug and you have
to look at
yourself. That’s what it’s all about psychologically. I mean,
you can come
towards ibogaine from the whole pain-management and neurochemical
perspective and that’s totally fine. But make no mistake, when you
start
dealing with larger doses you’re dealing with a fencing-in tool par
excellence. This is a strange place to hang out if you’re not into
fencing-in!
Again, you wrote >I’m not advocating that junkies are made social
scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go
for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and
a sign of
rising world awareness.<
This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping
their use, I
would hope you would leave them alone (unless they’re breaking
into your
home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means,
take action
and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to
force others to
curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you
competely
shocks me and saddens me.
What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for
people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and
Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m
pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want
to try and
shift me from it.<
Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it,
unless you
try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your
viewpoint?
Then I’ll not only shift you, I’ll probably fight you tooth
and nail with
all my heart.
To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they
mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You
have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let
healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not
that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” <
Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and
“go a little
deeper” is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest,
at least not
for me. It’s too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment
plans. Ick as
hell.
Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from
ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking
ibogaine and
still get something (beneficial I mean- I’m not talking about the
“ah shit,
I’m running low” stuff) from opiates.
Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling
encroached
upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad,
pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don’t know, not
me? To me it
simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big
white horse and
looking down from your self-described position of enlightened
enlightenment
and saying how much better you are than those who still want to
use opiates
for whatever reason. That’s the message I’m gradually getting
from you Nick,
and I must say I’m a bit surprised to read from anyone on a
list dealing
with ibogaine that they’re into the idea of forcing people
into fenced in
enclosures because they use the wrong drugs.
Well, fencing-in stuff I talked about above. I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let
it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself. And I’m not
enlightened,
I
don’t even know what it means. I live in a community I love and
I work and
I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.
with love
Nick
Damn, that’s scary, as I’ve
already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite
pointedly blunt here, but I’m not actually feeling hostile in
your directon
Nick, but rather, I’m very strongly disagreeing with you and
attempting to
explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary
and to me,
well, wrong.
;-))
But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you
don’t ever have
any power over me, I won’t ever want to “shift you away” or
stop you from
expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you,
nor would I
want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force
you to look
deeper. I’d love to read from you, “oh, you know what, yer
right Preston,
what was I thinking,” but don’t expect to see that, and don’t
particularly
care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have
enough power to
force me to do anything.
The whole notion that it’s ok to force others into life situations
because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary
and facist so
far as I define fascism.
It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it
showed me
my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
interract with
people but not communicate to them what I know.<
As the title to one of Disinfo’s books puts it, “Everything
you ‘KNOW’ is
Wrong.”
Nuther ;-))
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 4:56:23 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
As the overall level of consciousness on the planet starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the least hip thing
imaginable.<
So the prohibitionists are acting as agents of a higher world conciousness. Good to know that.
Granted heroin hasn’t been around all that long, but still, opium has and if one does enough of it the effects are remarkably similar to heroin. Were those who used it for the thousands upon thousands of years for so many different reasons wrong after all? So if our use of this and other substances was so wrong, how in the heck did we manage to evolve so far along then?
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 20:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick asked >What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just
be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
<
What?!
Um, I would prefer not to hang out with a general fucking drag,
but who am I
to take that to the next level. For crying out loud, I find most drunks
total freakin’ drags Nick, but I don’t wanna lock ’em up and make
them face
whatever. I certain do not agree that it would be great to have
some social
laws for people who don’t want to participate in life, I personally find
that horrifying and completely batty.
Again, no offense, but wow, that’s pretty extreme. I’m actually
completely
the opposite, feeling quite the Libertarian when it comes to this sort of
thing.
And I’m sure there are plenty of people who would like to
drag you out
of your home and lock you away for daring even talk about, much less use
such a dangerous and criminal mistake of the lord as ibogaine. (I use
imagined prohibitionist terminology, not my own here.) They’ve already
written some nifty social laws I suppose we could emulate- force everyone
out of their homes, to take ibogaine and face their stuff. Egad,
that’s so
damned not right and downright un-American (again, I jest ’cause
it’s just
too damned America really) what you are saying here. I’m amazed. I think
I’ve not been paying attention to what certain people have been
posting on
this here list.
>I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself.<
I gotta just say Nick that while I enjoyed ibogaine and
definitely plan on
going through it at least another time (maybe a lot of other time- won’t
committ to that yet, instead taking it one trip at a time), I didn’t need
ibogaine or any other drug to liberate my consciousness- my “liberated
conciousness” was what lead me to try drugs in the first place,
at least so
I believe. I use various drugs to various reasons, and ibogaine
is one more
drug to use for one more (or more than one, I will definitely
grant it that)
reason too.
>I live in a community I love and I work and I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.<
Funny, so do I, and yeah, I tend to think I celebrate existence
to the very
best of my ability, so I’m not sure what your point is.
But I’m still having trouble with the whole “let’s drag [some? So who
decides who is a drag and who is not Nick, and what constitutes
drag? Would
drag be defined universally or would we take into consideration cultural
mores and habits? Woudl certain clothing styles or musical tastes be
included in this? Or religious or political viewpoints?
Hi Preston,
I mean the thing about dragging people out into the streets will probably
take another couple of decades to become really viable, the way I see it.
But it’ll come for sure if people don’t respond in other ways and show
themselves more. As the overall level of consciousness on the planet starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the least hip thing
imaginable. In any rising awareness situation this is something of an
inevitability for analgesics are basically anti-awareness.
I mean, you CAN fight for your rights as junkies, but the problem with that
is that if you really put your position out fully you’re inevitably going to
find it transmuted, your awareness will rise through the very action of
really fighting for something, full on with all your energy. Basically,
heroin can’t win, for it relies on the user never going totally into a
feeling to maintain its hold on the body. When society starts to move
towards pushing users more out into the open then a lot of change will occur
spontaneously for the very action of fully resisting that change actually
catalyses it even more strongly.
love
Nick
It appear
exactly so
from what I’m reading into your words. Sheeze, this is so messed
up, really,
I’m having trouble even wrapping my head around the idea that you might
really be serious) people out of their homes and force them” to
do anything.
I think I’d be very unhappy to see you arrive at my door with
that attitude.
It would lead to very, very unpleasentry and lots of non-huggy and
ingrateness for sure.
I wish sometimes I was more of a cretin so I could curse and fume and not
feel stupid for doing so, because occasionally I’m hit with a brick like
this email from out of nowhere and I really want to express my
amazement in
more gutteral, street lingo, but there are ladies present and all that,
so….
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>
>
>> —–Original Message—–
>> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
>> Sent: 26 January 2005 14:27
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>>
>>
>> >Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
>> you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into >> you
>> day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then >> I
>> think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think
it’s totally
>> fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats,
>> that they
>> are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go
>> for
>> awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and
a sign of
>> rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to
>> start
>> living that.<
>>
>> Nick, that’s a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone
>> might have
>> enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the
>> direction they
>> feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to
force me to do
>> so…oh, wait, that’s already happening with the whole stinkin’
>> war on some
>> drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
>> I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as
>> loving or at
>> least caring as you come across being.
>>
>
> Hi Preston,
>
> Well, for me, I like to be able to feel someone, you know. Feel who > they
> are, connect with them. I’m not so interested in being
presented with the
> drug-edited version of who they are that they want to show the
world. For
> sure, we all hide ourselves, drug-users or otherwise, but it’s a drag. > I
> like it when I can see the whole person, including all the crazy or bad
> shit
> they think they have to hide away. Druggies are no different
from anybody
> else in this.
>
> And I think a bit of fencing-in is fine. The whole “therapeutic
community”
> concept, from Synanon to Phoenix House to Humaniversity, I think it’s
> great.
> When you’re surrounded by others 24 hours a day, reflecting
your behaviour
> back at you, you get to find out who you are pretty quickly –
what you’ll
> back down about, what you’ll take a stand about, what you care
about, and
> what you’ll let go. The core of Christianity was the same – the whole
> crucifixion thing is a metaphor, it means you stay in once place and > you
> face your shit, they called it the Fixed Cross in astrology – a few
> zillion
> incarnations on the Mutable cross, then you’re initiated on the Fixed
> cross
> and have to look, then, when freed from delusion you get to hang out on
> the
> Cardinal cross. It’s the same principle throughout mythology and
> symbolism –
> JC on his cross, Odin on his tree, whatever. Bwiti the same, iboga
> initiation means you’re incapacitated on the drug and you have
to look at
> yourself. That’s what it’s all about psychologically. I mean,
you can come
> towards ibogaine from the whole pain-management and neurochemical
> perspective and that’s totally fine. But make no mistake, when you > start
> dealing with larger doses you’re dealing with a fencing-in tool par
> excellence. This is a strange place to hang out if you’re not into
> fencing-in!
>
>> Again, you wrote >I’m not advocating that junkies are made social
>> scapegoats, that they
>> are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go
>> for
>> awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and
a sign of
>> rising world awareness.<
>>
>> This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping
>> their use, I
>> would hope you would leave them alone (unless they’re breaking
into your
>> home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means,
take action
>> and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to
force others to
>> curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you
>> competely
>> shocks me and saddens me.
>
> What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
otherwise? I mean,
> don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for
people who
> don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and
Who make the
> Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be
> dragged
> out of their homes and made to take part.
>
>>
>> >That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m
>> pro-awareness and
>> anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want
>> to try and
>> shift me from it.<
>>
>> Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it,
unless you
>> try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your
>> viewpoint?
>> Then I’ll not only shift you, I’ll probably fight you tooth
and nail with
>> all my heart.
>>
>> >To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they
mean is – the
>> stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You
>> have
>> the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let
healing in.
>> You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not
>> that. I hang
>> out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” <
>>
>> Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and
>> “go a little
>> deeper” is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest,
at least not
>> for me. It’s too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment
>> plans. Ick as
>> hell.
>>
>> Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from
>> ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking
>> ibogaine and
>> still get something (beneficial I mean- I’m not talking about the
>> “ah shit,
>> I’m running low” stuff) from opiates.
>> Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling
encroached
>> upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad,
>> pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don’t know, not
>> me? To me it
>> simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big
white horse and
>> looking down from your self-described position of enlightened
>> enlightenment
>> and saying how much better you are than those who still want to
>> use opiates
>> for whatever reason. That’s the message I’m gradually getting
>> from you Nick,
>> and I must say I’m a bit surprised to read from anyone on a
list dealing
>> with ibogaine that they’re into the idea of forcing people
into fenced in
>> enclosures because they use the wrong drugs.
>
> Well, fencing-in stuff I talked about above. I mean ibogaine IS
> fencing-in,
> basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let
it start to
> see what it really is, reflected back on itself. And I’m not
enlightened,
> I
> don’t even know what it means. I live in a community I love and
I work and
> I
> have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
> world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.
>
> with love
>
> Nick
>
>
> Damn, that’s scary, as I’ve
>> already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite
>> pointedly blunt here, but I’m not actually feeling hostile in
>> your directon
>> Nick, but rather, I’m very strongly disagreeing with you and
>> attempting to
>> explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary
>> and to me,
>> well, wrong.
>> ;-))
>> But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you
>> don’t ever have
>> any power over me, I won’t ever want to “shift you away” or
stop you from
>> expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you,
>> nor would I
>> want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force
you to look
>> deeper. I’d love to read from you, “oh, you know what, yer
right Preston,
>> what was I thinking,” but don’t expect to see that, and don’t
>> particularly
>> care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have
>> enough power to
>> force me to do anything.
>> The whole notion that it’s ok to force others into life situations
>> because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary
>> and facist so
>> far as I define fascism.
>>
>> >It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it
>> showed me
>> >my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
>> interract with
>> >people but not communicate to them what I know.<
>>
>> As the title to one of Disinfo’s books puts it, “Everything
you ‘KNOW’ is
>> Wrong.”
>> Nuther ;-))
>>
>> Peace and love,
>> Preston
>>
>> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
>> mistaken for madness”
>> Richard Davenport-Hines
>
>
>
>
>
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [DrugWar] Fw: [Ibogaine] QUESTION on ‘The Nature of Addiction’
Date: January 26, 2005 at 4:33:45 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: drugwar@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —– From: Kay Lee
To: DPF Texas
Cc: Ibogaine List
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:55 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] QUESTION on ‘The Nature of Addiction’
I wanted the opinion of experts, so I’m asking that y’all read this and let me know if it is quality work. There’s a new term in prison medical lingo being reported in papers all over the country. They call the dental problems related to drugs, “Meth Mouth”. I am adding this to my medical section and I want to link addiction information – if it is superior information. This article is part one of a five-part series.
If anyone knows of a better resource, I’d like to read it. Thanks, Kay Lee
The nature of addiction
http://www.smythnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=SCN/MGArticle/SCN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031780461336&path=!home
by Lee Ann Prescott
lprescot@wythenews.com | 276-783-5121
Smyth County News
Wednesday, January 26, 2005
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 4:10:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Let me shoot you up please.<
LOL!!!
That’s a great point. Can’t believe I didn’t think of this one.
Nick, I think you’d be in much better shape if you shot up lots of heroin. So I’m coming over with my goon squad and we’re going to drag you out of your home and shoot you full of the best dope around.
You don’t have a problem with that do you? I mean, I think that’s best for you, really, I do, so even if you don’t agree, too bad. Where do you live? I’m tired of you thinking you’ve got things in the proper perspective so I’m going to fix you. I think it’ll do you a lot of good. That’s what I think so I can’t imagine there being a problem for you with my doing so.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Let me shoot you up please.
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com
[mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where
you wrote:
>>What about just being a
general fucking drag, junkie
or otherwise? I mean,
>>don’t you agree it would be
great to have some
social laws for people who
>>don’t want to participate in
life? OK, it could be
abused and Who make the
>>Rules Up and all that, but
really I think some
people should just be dragged
>>out of their homes and made
to take part.
Are you serious that you think
people should be forced
out of their homes and then forced into doing things
that other people feel
they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious.
What if we only get one
life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks
we should do to really
get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet
peeves is nosy people
who feel that they know what is best for everyone
else. Being a drug addict
it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage
of people who get off
hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd
can’t wait to feel that
spiritual better than thouness when they take you by
the hand and guide you
through all that nastiness and bring you into the
light. I have complete
respect for people who spend time helping other
people, but I think it is
important that they don’t try to force people into
that help, because it
won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking
their noses into your
private little thought processes! Why not? What are
you hiding?
Also when you said you are
anti-heroin, I would like
to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you
think it ruins people’s
lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness.
Heroin’s a painkiller,
an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness,
blocks development.
Everything we take acts like
a drug in our brains,
from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen
is probably the most
addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about
trying to kick oxygen
because our quality of life would be pretty shitty
without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for
some people, because of
a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of
awareness, chronic immaturity,
laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that
their quality of life
with opiates is higher than without it. All in all
it should be up to the
individual, as long as they are not hurting any one
else, to decide how they
want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think
dragging people out of
their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean
it. Drag all those seedy
little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the
world out into daylight
and get to recognize who you really are. Why not?
Confront your fears! Show
yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in
my life that some people
would have loved to have the control to stop me, but
I am thankful that they
couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more
understanding about
myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If
you can’t be in someone
else’s head you can’t know what they want or need,
so don’t you think it
would be better to let people come to their own
conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t
my experience. A lot of
people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually
need. They’re stuck in
repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face
and hold down feelings,
desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten
their image of
themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go
round and round, and if
they come past me I try to encourage them to look
deeper in whatever way I
can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help
people, wait until they
decide what they want to change, and then help them,
as opposed to forcing
what you think is best for them upon them? You
always seem so positive and
up-beat that I think you are probably great at
helping people, but from some
of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a
little forceful (the
whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of
course it’s hard to know
what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from
people. And if someone is
coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit
from useful feedback, then
I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am.
About knowing how
people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails
are a bit limited
generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 4:06:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick wrote this and the other comments set aside like this >I’m sorry, but this just isn’t my experience. A lot of people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually need.<
LOL, but you do know what they need? Jesus christ Nick, take a breather, and please climb down off that horse I mentioned, you’re making me laugh way too hard here in my secret-filled hovel of numbed out darkness.
They just go round and round, and if they come past me I try to encourage them to look deeper in whatever way I can. I’m learning.<
Learning what, how better to force everyone around you to your way of thinking and being? I’m glad I don’t live in your community Nick, really, I am. I’m very, very glad I can hold you at arms distance by email.
I like people. I learn from people. And if someone is coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit from useful feedback, then I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am.<
How can you learn from (or even like for that matter) people if you think certain people not living and thinking like you should be forced to do so against their will? What are you learning from them? Are you taking classes in the George Orwell School of Thought and Behavior Manipulation or something?
oh, and before I forget:
You don’t want people poking their noses into your private little thought processes! Why not? What are you hiding?<
Not unless I choose to share my private thought processes, no, I don’t want anyone poking their freakin’ noses in them without my permission, especially someone like yourself who is going to try and force me to not only change those processes but to change them to how they and they alone think my processes should be. And you sound exactly like those who support mandatory urine testing for anyone who wants a job or for any reason really- if you aren’t guilty, what do you have to hide? I guess you wouldn’t mind the cops coming in to your home and poking around any time they please, right Nick? I mean, you aren’t committing any crimes, right? You shouldn’t mind then. How about me? May I let myself in and poke around your private spaces Nick? Would you like me rumagging through your apartment, even if you aren’t home? You aren’t hiding anything, right? So it should be cool, right?
You’re sounding scarier and scarier with each note in this thread Nick. Highly entertaining but scary as hell.
Are you the one who used to be a methadone counselor? Or is that another Nick? Or am I misremembering the name of the former methadone counselor now in Arizona?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where you wrote:
What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
Are you serious that you think people should be forced out of their homes and then forced into doing things that other people feel they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious. What if we only get one life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks we should do to really get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet peeves is nosy people who feel that they know what is best for everyone else. Being a drug addict it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage of people who get off hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd can’t wait to feel that spiritual better than thouness when they take you by the hand and guide you through all that nastiness and bring you into the light. I have complete respect for people who spend time helping other people, but I think it is important that they don’t try to force people into that help, because it won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking their noses into your private little thought processes! Why not? What are you hiding?
Also when you said you are anti-heroin, I would like to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you think it ruins people’s lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness. Heroin’s a painkiller, an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness, blocks development.
Everything we take acts like a drug in our brains, from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen is probably the most addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about trying to kick oxygen because our quality of life would be pretty shitty without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for some people, because of a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of awareness, chronic immaturity, laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that their quality of life with opiates is higher than without it. All in all it should be up to the individual, as long as they are not hurting any one else, to decide how they want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think dragging people out of their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean it. Drag all those seedy little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the world out into daylight and get to recognize who you really are. Why not? Confront your fears! Show yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in my life that some people would have loved to have the control to stop me, but I am thankful that they couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more understanding about myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If you can’t be in someone else’s head you can’t know what they want or need, so don’t you think it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t my experience. A lot of people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually need. They’re stuck in repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face and hold down feelings, desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten their image of themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go round and round, and if they come past me I try to encourage them to look deeper in whatever way I can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help people, wait until they decide what they want to change, and then help them, as opposed to forcing what you think is best for them upon them? You always seem so positive and up-beat that I think you are probably great at helping people, but from some of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a little forceful (the whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of course it’s hard to know what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from people. And if someone is coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit from useful feedback, then I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am. About knowing how people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails are a bit limited generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 3:55:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 20:19
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Nick asked >What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just
be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
<
What?!
Um, I would prefer not to hang out with a general fucking drag,
but who am I
to take that to the next level. For crying out loud, I find most drunks
total freakin’ drags Nick, but I don’t wanna lock ’em up and make
them face
whatever. I certain do not agree that it would be great to have
some social
laws for people who don’t want to participate in life, I personally find
that horrifying and completely batty.
Again, no offense, but wow, that’s pretty extreme. I’m actually
completely
the opposite, feeling quite the Libertarian when it comes to this sort of
thing.
And I’m sure there are plenty of people who would like to
drag you out
of your home and lock you away for daring even talk about, much less use
such a dangerous and criminal mistake of the lord as ibogaine. (I use
imagined prohibitionist terminology, not my own here.) They’ve already
written some nifty social laws I suppose we could emulate- force everyone
out of their homes, to take ibogaine and face their stuff. Egad,
that’s so
damned not right and downright un-American (again, I jest ’cause
it’s just
too damned America really) what you are saying here. I’m amazed. I think
I’ve not been paying attention to what certain people have been
posting on
this here list.
I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself.<
I gotta just say Nick that while I enjoyed ibogaine and
definitely plan on
going through it at least another time (maybe a lot of other time- won’t
committ to that yet, instead taking it one trip at a time), I didn’t need
ibogaine or any other drug to liberate my consciousness- my “liberated
conciousness” was what lead me to try drugs in the first place,
at least so
I believe. I use various drugs to various reasons, and ibogaine
is one more
drug to use for one more (or more than one, I will definitely
grant it that)
reason too.
I live in a community I love and I work and I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.<
Funny, so do I, and yeah, I tend to think I celebrate existence
to the very
best of my ability, so I’m not sure what your point is.
But I’m still having trouble with the whole “let’s drag [some? So who
decides who is a drag and who is not Nick, and what constitutes
drag? Would
drag be defined universally or would we take into consideration cultural
mores and habits? Woudl certain clothing styles or musical tastes be
included in this? Or religious or political viewpoints?
Hi Preston,
I mean the thing about dragging people out into the streets will probably
take another couple of decades to become really viable, the way I see it.
But it’ll come for sure if people don’t respond in other ways and show
themselves more. As the overall level of consciousness on the planet starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the least hip thing
imaginable. In any rising awareness situation this is something of an
inevitability for analgesics are basically anti-awareness.
I mean, you CAN fight for your rights as junkies, but the problem with that
is that if you really put your position out fully you’re inevitably going to
find it transmuted, your awareness will rise through the very action of
really fighting for something, full on with all your energy. Basically,
heroin can’t win, for it relies on the user never going totally into a
feeling to maintain its hold on the body. When society starts to move
towards pushing users more out into the open then a lot of change will occur
spontaneously for the very action of fully resisting that change actually
catalyses it even more strongly.
love
Nick
It appear
exactly so
from what I’m reading into your words. Sheeze, this is so messed
up, really,
I’m having trouble even wrapping my head around the idea that you might
really be serious) people out of their homes and force them” to
do anything.
I think I’d be very unhappy to see you arrive at my door with
that attitude.
It would lead to very, very unpleasentry and lots of non-huggy and
ingrateness for sure.
I wish sometimes I was more of a cretin so I could curse and fume and not
feel stupid for doing so, because occasionally I’m hit with a brick like
this email from out of nowhere and I really want to express my
amazement in
more gutteral, street lingo, but there are ladies present and all that,
so….
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
Civilizations,
Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 14:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think
it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats,
that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go
for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and
a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to
start
living that.<
Nick, that’s a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone
might have
enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the
direction they
feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to
force me to do
so…oh, wait, that’s already happening with the whole stinkin’
war on some
drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as
loving or at
least caring as you come across being.
Hi Preston,
Well, for me, I like to be able to feel someone, you know. Feel who they
are, connect with them. I’m not so interested in being
presented with the
drug-edited version of who they are that they want to show the
world. For
sure, we all hide ourselves, drug-users or otherwise, but it’s a drag. I
like it when I can see the whole person, including all the crazy or bad
shit
they think they have to hide away. Druggies are no different
from anybody
else in this.
And I think a bit of fencing-in is fine. The whole “therapeutic
community”
concept, from Synanon to Phoenix House to Humaniversity, I think it’s
great.
When you’re surrounded by others 24 hours a day, reflecting
your behaviour
back at you, you get to find out who you are pretty quickly –
what you’ll
back down about, what you’ll take a stand about, what you care
about, and
what you’ll let go. The core of Christianity was the same – the whole
crucifixion thing is a metaphor, it means you stay in once place and you
face your shit, they called it the Fixed Cross in astrology – a few
zillion
incarnations on the Mutable cross, then you’re initiated on the Fixed
cross
and have to look, then, when freed from delusion you get to hang out on
the
Cardinal cross. It’s the same principle throughout mythology and
symbolism –
JC on his cross, Odin on his tree, whatever. Bwiti the same, iboga
initiation means you’re incapacitated on the drug and you have
to look at
yourself. That’s what it’s all about psychologically. I mean,
you can come
towards ibogaine from the whole pain-management and neurochemical
perspective and that’s totally fine. But make no mistake, when you start
dealing with larger doses you’re dealing with a fencing-in tool par
excellence. This is a strange place to hang out if you’re not into
fencing-in!
Again, you wrote >I’m not advocating that junkies are made social
scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go
for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and
a sign of
rising world awareness.<
This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping
their use, I
would hope you would leave them alone (unless they’re breaking
into your
home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means,
take action
and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to
force others to
curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you
competely
shocks me and saddens me.
What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for
people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and
Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m
pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want
to try and
shift me from it.<
Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it,
unless you
try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your
viewpoint?
Then I’ll not only shift you, I’ll probably fight you tooth
and nail with
all my heart.
To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they
mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You
have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let
healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not
that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” <
Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and
“go a little
deeper” is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest,
at least not
for me. It’s too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment
plans. Ick as
hell.
Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from
ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking
ibogaine and
still get something (beneficial I mean- I’m not talking about the
“ah shit,
I’m running low” stuff) from opiates.
Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling
encroached
upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad,
pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don’t know, not
me? To me it
simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big
white horse and
looking down from your self-described position of enlightened
enlightenment
and saying how much better you are than those who still want to
use opiates
for whatever reason. That’s the message I’m gradually getting
from you Nick,
and I must say I’m a bit surprised to read from anyone on a
list dealing
with ibogaine that they’re into the idea of forcing people
into fenced in
enclosures because they use the wrong drugs.
Well, fencing-in stuff I talked about above. I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let
it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself. And I’m not
enlightened,
I
don’t even know what it means. I live in a community I love and
I work and
I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.
with love
Nick
Damn, that’s scary, as I’ve
already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite
pointedly blunt here, but I’m not actually feeling hostile in
your directon
Nick, but rather, I’m very strongly disagreeing with you and
attempting to
explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary
and to me,
well, wrong.
;-))
But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you
don’t ever have
any power over me, I won’t ever want to “shift you away” or
stop you from
expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you,
nor would I
want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force
you to look
deeper. I’d love to read from you, “oh, you know what, yer
right Preston,
what was I thinking,” but don’t expect to see that, and don’t
particularly
care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have
enough power to
force me to do anything.
The whole notion that it’s ok to force others into life situations
because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary
and facist so
far as I define fascism.
It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it
showed me
my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
interract with
people but not communicate to them what I know.<
As the title to one of Disinfo’s books puts it, “Everything
you ‘KNOW’ is
Wrong.”
Nuther ;-))
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Pain killers and group therapy
Date: January 26, 2005 at 3:27:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
All I can say is that I send you my love and that I have a supreme
desire for you to be happy and relatively pain free. I don’t know about scream
therapy, but I do know that when shit gets bad I crank up the jams till my ears
ring, and it helps.<
So true Randy, so true, the music definitely helps me a lot, and I do use it theraputically quite often, choosing carefully what music I play to max whatever the mood might be in me right then, particularly if I’m feeling down or blue in any way.
In some ways I do honestly think that music does have an effect very similar to what happens when I take drugs, just not quite as intense. Sorta anyway.
Thanks for the words too btw.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Pain killers and group therapy
Preston, I think you know how I feel about pain killers. I love ’em, but they
don’t love me. It isn’t the dope that I don’t like, it is what my addiction
made me do that I didn’t like. Flipping out on my family when I was short on
dope, or out completely, having to bow to some mother fucker I can’t stand to
get a hook up, and being so emotionally unstable that no one would trust me with
good or bad information. If I had a Doc who would give me all the dope that I
needed I don’t know if I ever would stop. I never could find that Doc. AA
helped me and AA kept my addiction going too. I would go to an AA group and talk
about drugs and some old timer would tell me to keep my discusion to alcohol
and the problems it caused. Well in that case I can do all the dope I want and
still be OK as long as I don’t drink. I had a script, maybe not for the oxy’s
I was doing, but I had a script. Look at me I haven’t had a drink in 5 years,
just don’t look too close at my veins. Fuck that. I go to meetings to get
what I want now. I don’t fall for all the bullshit anymore. My peace of mind is
my own, I don’t need somebody to tell me if I’m happy or clean enough or what
the fuck ever. I feel for you dude. I wish I could say something that would
help you. All I can say is that I send you my love and that I have a supreme
desire for you to be happy and relatively pain free. I don’t know about scream
therapy, but I do know that when shit gets bad I crank up the jams till my ears
ring, and it helps. Randy
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 3:19:28 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick asked >What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
<
What?!
Um, I would prefer not to hang out with a general fucking drag, but who am I to take that to the next level. For crying out loud, I find most drunks total freakin’ drags Nick, but I don’t wanna lock ’em up and make them face whatever. I certain do not agree that it would be great to have some social laws for people who don’t want to participate in life, I personally find that horrifying and completely batty.
Again, no offense, but wow, that’s pretty extreme. I’m actually completely the opposite, feeling quite the Libertarian when it comes to this sort of thing.
And I’m sure there are plenty of people who would like to drag you out of your home and lock you away for daring even talk about, much less use such a dangerous and criminal mistake of the lord as ibogaine. (I use imagined prohibitionist terminology, not my own here.) They’ve already written some nifty social laws I suppose we could emulate- force everyone out of their homes, to take ibogaine and face their stuff. Egad, that’s so damned not right and downright un-American (again, I jest ’cause it’s just too damned America really) what you are saying here. I’m amazed. I think I’ve not been paying attention to what certain people have been posting on this here list.
I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself.<
I gotta just say Nick that while I enjoyed ibogaine and definitely plan on going through it at least another time (maybe a lot of other time- won’t committ to that yet, instead taking it one trip at a time), I didn’t need ibogaine or any other drug to liberate my consciousness- my “liberated conciousness” was what lead me to try drugs in the first place, at least so I believe. I use various drugs to various reasons, and ibogaine is one more drug to use for one more (or more than one, I will definitely grant it that) reason too.
I live in a community I love and I work and I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.<
Funny, so do I, and yeah, I tend to think I celebrate existence to the very best of my ability, so I’m not sure what your point is.
But I’m still having trouble with the whole “let’s drag [some? So who decides who is a drag and who is not Nick, and what constitutes drag? Would drag be defined universally or would we take into consideration cultural mores and habits? Woudl certain clothing styles or musical tastes be included in this? Or religious or political viewpoints? It appear exactly so from what I’m reading into your words. Sheeze, this is so messed up, really, I’m having trouble even wrapping my head around the idea that you might really be serious) people out of their homes and force them” to do anything. I think I’d be very unhappy to see you arrive at my door with that attitude. It would lead to very, very unpleasentry and lots of non-huggy and ingrateness for sure.
I wish sometimes I was more of a cretin so I could curse and fume and not feel stupid for doing so, because occasionally I’m hit with a brick like this email from out of nowhere and I really want to express my amazement in more gutteral, street lingo, but there are ladies present and all that, so….
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Explorations and Enigmas” (due out Sept. 2005)
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 14:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats,
that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
living that.<
Nick, that’s a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone
might have
enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the
direction they
feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to force me to do
so…oh, wait, that’s already happening with the whole stinkin’
war on some
drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as
loving or at
least caring as you come across being.
Hi Preston,
Well, for me, I like to be able to feel someone, you know. Feel who they
are, connect with them. I’m not so interested in being presented with the
drug-edited version of who they are that they want to show the world. For
sure, we all hide ourselves, drug-users or otherwise, but it’s a drag. I
like it when I can see the whole person, including all the crazy or bad shit
they think they have to hide away. Druggies are no different from anybody
else in this.
And I think a bit of fencing-in is fine. The whole “therapeutic community”
concept, from Synanon to Phoenix House to Humaniversity, I think it’s great.
When you’re surrounded by others 24 hours a day, reflecting your behaviour
back at you, you get to find out who you are pretty quickly – what you’ll
back down about, what you’ll take a stand about, what you care about, and
what you’ll let go. The core of Christianity was the same – the whole
crucifixion thing is a metaphor, it means you stay in once place and you
face your shit, they called it the Fixed Cross in astrology – a few zillion
incarnations on the Mutable cross, then you’re initiated on the Fixed cross
and have to look, then, when freed from delusion you get to hang out on the
Cardinal cross. It’s the same principle throughout mythology and symbolism –
JC on his cross, Odin on his tree, whatever. Bwiti the same, iboga
initiation means you’re incapacitated on the drug and you have to look at
yourself. That’s what it’s all about psychologically. I mean, you can come
towards ibogaine from the whole pain-management and neurochemical
perspective and that’s totally fine. But make no mistake, when you start
dealing with larger doses you’re dealing with a fencing-in tool par
excellence. This is a strange place to hang out if you’re not into
fencing-in!
Again, you wrote >I’m not advocating that junkies are made social
scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness.<
This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping
their use, I
would hope you would leave them alone (unless they’re breaking into your
home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means, take action
and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to force others to
curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you
competely
shocks me and saddens me.
What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
>That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m
pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want
to try and
shift me from it.<
Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it, unless you
try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your
viewpoint?
Then I’ll not only shift you, I’ll probably fight you tooth and nail with
all my heart.
>To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not
that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” <
Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and
“go a little
deeper” is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest, at least not
for me. It’s too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment
plans. Ick as
hell.
Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from
ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking
ibogaine and
still get something (beneficial I mean- I’m not talking about the
“ah shit,
I’m running low” stuff) from opiates.
Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling encroached
upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad,
pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don’t know, not
me? To me it
simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big white horse and
looking down from your self-described position of enlightened
enlightenment
and saying how much better you are than those who still want to
use opiates
for whatever reason. That’s the message I’m gradually getting
from you Nick,
and I must say I’m a bit surprised to read from anyone on a list dealing
with ibogaine that they’re into the idea of forcing people into fenced in
enclosures because they use the wrong drugs.
Well, fencing-in stuff I talked about above. I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself. And I’m not enlightened, I
don’t even know what it means. I live in a community I love and I work and I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.
with love
Nick
Damn, that’s scary, as I’ve
already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite
pointedly blunt here, but I’m not actually feeling hostile in
your directon
Nick, but rather, I’m very strongly disagreeing with you and
attempting to
explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary
and to me,
well, wrong.
;-))
But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you
don’t ever have
any power over me, I won’t ever want to “shift you away” or stop you from
expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you,
nor would I
want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force you to look
deeper. I’d love to read from you, “oh, you know what, yer right Preston,
what was I thinking,” but don’t expect to see that, and don’t
particularly
care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have
enough power to
force me to do anything.
The whole notion that it’s ok to force others into life situations
because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary
and facist so
far as I define fascism.
>It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it
showed me
>my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
interract with
>people but not communicate to them what I know.<
As the title to one of Disinfo’s books puts it, “Everything you ‘KNOW’ is
Wrong.”
Nuther ;-))
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Date: January 26, 2005 at 3:14:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
“But I’m actually not trying to get anything across.”
My bad. You do that well.
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 3:10:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2005 19:08
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
(with heroin/cocaine)
“Where do you live?!”
🙂
Osho Leela
Thorngrove House
Gillingham
Dorset over here in good old England! Come and visit! Community Experience
Programme only £70/week. Gotta be clean though, and you’ve gotta have some
energy for living or at least be up for getting it.
love
Nick
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com
[mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where
you wrote:
What about just being a
general fucking drag, junkie
or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be
great to have some
social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in
life? OK, it could be
abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but
really I think some
people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made
to take part.
Are you serious that you think
people should be forced
out of their homes and then forced into doing things
that other people feel
they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious.
What if we only get one
life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks
we should do to really
get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet
peeves is nosy people
who feel that they know what is best for everyone
else. Being a drug addict
it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage
of people who get off
hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd
can’t wait to feel that
spiritual better than thouness when they take you by
the hand and guide you
through all that nastiness and bring you into the
light. I have complete
respect for people who spend time helping other
people, but I think it is
important that they don’t try to force people into
that help, because it
won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking
their noses into your
private little thought processes! Why not? What are
you hiding?
Also when you said you are
anti-heroin, I would like
to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you
think it ruins people’s
lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness.
Heroin’s a painkiller,
an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness,
blocks development.
Everything we take acts like
a drug in our brains,
from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen
is probably the most
addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about
trying to kick oxygen
because our quality of life would be pretty shitty
without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for
some people, because of
a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of
awareness, chronic immaturity,
laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that
their quality of life
with opiates is higher than without it. All in all
it should be up to the
individual, as long as they are not hurting any one
else, to decide how they
want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think
dragging people out of
their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean
it. Drag all those seedy
little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the
world out into daylight
and get to recognize who you really are. Why not?
Confront your fears! Show
yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in
my life that some people
would have loved to have the control to stop me, but
I am thankful that they
couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more
understanding about
myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If
you can’t be in someone
else’s head you can’t know what they want or need,
so don’t you think it
would be better to let people come to their own
conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t
my experience. A lot of
people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually
need. They’re stuck in
repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face
and hold down feelings,
desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten
their image of
themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go
round and round, and if
they come past me I try to encourage them to look
deeper in whatever way I
can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help
people, wait until they
decide what they want to change, and then help them,
as opposed to forcing
what you think is best for them upon them? You
always seem so positive and
up-beat that I think you are probably great at
helping people, but from some
of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a
little forceful (the
whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of
course it’s hard to know
what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from
people. And if someone is
coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit
from useful feedback, then
I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am.
About knowing how
people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails
are a bit limited
generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Date: January 26, 2005 at 3:08:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:51
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Some Ibo Vids:
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/archive.cgi?q=ibogaine
“stick mY dick in tha mashed potatoes” sound comes
from ISBN: 724382859925 Trk 3
Fair Use Contact?
Try http://capitalrecords.com/contact.htm
to see, I dunno.
I figure they got it from someone else so Why Not?
Nick, I think the term “fencing in” comes across a
little threatening and sounds like coming from a
source that doesn’t take it’s own perspective with a
grain of salt. (Umm..I do that too if you can’t
already tell)
Well, it doesn’t threaten me personally. How you see it is up to you, for
sure.
I couldn’t agree with “Hi Feds”Preston more re: it’s
not as simple as heroin bad/ibogaine good, because,
well, it’s just not.
OK, thank you for pointing that out.
Some almost conclusions I have reached through My
Limited experience is Prohibition of “drugs” (Ibo AND
Heroin too) caused/causes MUCH more damage then the
“drugs” themselves could ever cause. Way More. All
the way down to
Invoking Shame
Because they have some sort of self percieved moral
authority to invoke it.
In case you haven’t noticed, Junkies don’t like being
told what to do, just like non junkies.
Yes, but they rarely, in my experience, have the guts to really put their
negativity out. Not necessarily through any innate personality disfunction,
but because using heroin blocks expression. Because you use h you’re too
numbed out to express your authority trips and thus they stay forever, and
that makes for a seriously DULL planet. That’s why I advocate dragging this
stuff out into the light of day, kicking and screaming if necessary. If you
really put out an authority trip you can see how, underneath it, you’re just
keeping yourself small and safe, then you can move beyond this position and
expand. Whilst you’re too gauched out to even express a feeling properly
nothing can move and you become, imo, one serious fucking drag.
I like people to give me my options then let me
decide.
How am I not supposed to see this as scarry?:
“a fencing-in tool”
“I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.”
I couldn’t disagree more with what is written here:
“I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose
it.”
HOw can you use fencing-in and liberating
consciousness together like that, dat dunt muk scaunse
2 me mohn.
You mention treatment centers that do this, well ok.
If they were that sucessful at it we wouldn’t be here
talking about Ibogaine.
Study the process of initiation, man. It’s all the same principle –
containment. Really, study it. You’ll see the same pattern everywhere. It’s
“fixation” in alchemy, crucifixion in Christianity, iboga in Bwiti – and
it’s all the same process. Mutability, Fixation, Cardinality (Godliness).
Maybe if you do enough smack you can miss it in this lifetime but, rest
assured, we’ll get you in the next (if you get one)! It’s Huis Clos, no way
out! Really! We’ll sucker you in with some nice spacey chit-chat about
ibogaine being a psychoactive, then when the exit is blocked, Wham! Now
you’re gonna look at who you are, like it or not!
People aren’t bad people just because they eat
chocolate, Same with Opiate users (moderate or
heavy).
I have been “clean” <– see even that term is loaded
with SHame, to imply that if not meeting some
determined (by who) formula that I am somehow
“unclean”, can we say bRa1NwA$h1nG?
Look, I’m not laying SHame on you. You’re doing that to yourself.
Anyways without Methadone or opiates for going on 2
years now. I am Cynical as FUck, always have been. I
don’t think that just because I choose not to, that
everybody in the world has to stop too, again, not
taking own perspective with a grain of salt.
I don’t think hugging/saying fuck off, fuzzy
feelings/resentful feeling, some oneiric Christ
experience, overanalysing or underanaylsing is NOT
required, each has different goals when taking ibo.
If I could be arrested and given my prescribed
medication I wouldn’t think twice about getting on and
staying on for life, but that ain’t how it is, so I
don’t.
Nick, I don’t really have a problem with what you
are saying, I just think their may be a more workable
way to communicate what you are trying to get across,
that’s all.
But I’m actually not trying to get anything across.
with love
Nick
“I like it when I can see the whole person,”
You have to have trust first. Making LOve and
Fucking are not the same thing. If you want to see
the whole person…use the terms “ego” and “fencing
in” More More More, or not.
Ok enough of dat.
<tucking sheets 憂 bed>
May I hear the Blue Pearl Story Please?
[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0
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From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] QUESTION on ‘The Nature of Addiction’
Date: January 26, 2005 at 2:55:36 PM EST
To: “DPF Texas” <DPFT-L@LISTSERV.TAMU.EDU>
Cc: “Ibogaine List” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I wanted the opinion of experts, so I’m asking that y’all read this and let me know if it is quality work. There’s a new term in prison medical lingo being reported in papers all over the country. They call the dental problems related to drugs, “Meth Mouth”. I am adding this to my medical section and I want to link addiction information – if it is superior information. This article is part one of a five-part series.
If anyone knows of a better resource, I’d like to read it. Thanks, Kay Lee
The nature of addiction
http://www.smythnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=SCN/MGArticle/SCN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031780461336&path=!home
by Lee Ann Prescott
lprescot@wythenews.com | 276-783-5121
Smyth County News
Wednesday, January 26, 2005
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hokey pokey do you want to dance ?!
Date: January 26, 2005 at 2:44:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston !!
“Hokey pokey ice cream” I like your title.
” Hokey Pokey” is a participation dance from the 50 ‘s.
I guess that when you dance long enought you will get the ice cream.;-)
I dance a lot in the A’s Room and the promesses are actualy true .
Personaly, I don’t believe in my uniqueness and the rooms are a good world
playground where I can learn how to relate to people of all venues. I am
confortable with anyone and anywhere now, because I see what we have in
commun. Honestly, in my humble opinion NA or AA are incredible tools for
change.
I was a very individualist man, free like the wind, rebellious,a looner
with no rules, but with a lot secrets flaws of character. I hit my botton
and crash psycologicly around 30 something.Paradoxaly, I crash when I had
everything I had dreamt of and fought for….. I was living in a wonderful
place on a lake in Swiss , in a small tax heaven , sport cars bla..bla..
bla.. The all nine yards….
I was lonely, empty, suicidal.My uniquiness was separating me from everybody
and everything in my life. I felt dis-ease in my own skin.
Thank good i make it throught!!
The best thing I ever done was to participate in group therapy where I
learnt more from the pain, the self doubt, the suffering of a 15 years old
kid who needed a 10 inches long spoon to feed himself while in a wellchair.
He was a teenager and wanted , what all the teenager wants.Get love,
understanding and get laid. This kid teach me more, about my selfishness,
my pseudo uniqueness, than 20 books on the subject !!
Things like this can’t be told you have to live it. Throught your personal
experience as the member of a group where lies and B….shit are left
outside. AA and NA are designed for this too..
Love you, Man
Francis
PS I don’t forget your physical pain , this E_mail was refering
infortunately to psicologycal pain.
Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hokey pokey icecream? LOL!
Francis asked >What matter what you do or where you go : it’still your
best
thinking that
bring you where ever you are ?/!
So , I do you know what is your best thinking ?
The one who bring you in the rooms or the one who keep you out of the
rooms<
The one who keeps me out of rooms where people tell me I have to comform
to
a different way of doing things or I’m never going to be happy. As was the
message I repeatedly got from most groups no matter what. The only “group”
I
ever attended this didn’t happen with was the loosely meeting ibo group
here
in NYC, but it wasn’t very exciting and I went just twice due to
irritation
right away with another person there in attendence. Plus, it turned out to
be just a meeting of people in a park to chat about stuff, and ended up
with
me feeling like I should be doing something else instead of sitting and
chatting.
You are correct though Francis, that it is my “best thinking” that
keeps
me where I am and takes me where I go. And I’m not complaining about it at
all- I’m usually when posting sad or depressed note here just venting and
trying to get that sort of feeling out of me and onto paper/email/into
print
somehow, as that helps me cope. Plus, this here list is a group of sorts
too
come to think of it, and this one I do enjoy, a lot. So I do get something
out of some group situations, just not sitting in rooms with lots of other
people.
Kirsty nailed it with her reminder that there’s the pain issue too
that
some seem to be ignoring, or brushing off. That’s an irritating thing-
when
folk (which hasn’t actually happened here, yet, or at least, not too much)
tell me there are great ways to get through life without pain killers and
to
deal with pain without pain killers and etc, etc. Great, I’m happy for
those
who can and do make it through life in pain without pain killers, but I
don’t feel like being one of them, nor with trying to cope with this sort
of
non-stop pain and anguish without pain killers. Yuck. Doesn’t appeal to me
at all.
But that all said, the hoky pokey icecream does sound appealing, and I
want some- NOW! That might turn myself around, ’cause I know that what
it’s
all about. Right?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:12 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism, ibogaine, and hokey pokey
icecream……
I think people are missing the main point here……..what about the
pain???
And I argue (again) that since there IS no right and no wrong… then
nobody
CAN be right!!!
(And by the way, I’m always right, even when I’m wrong, I am right.)
Koiky
—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 7:03 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism and ibogaine
Hi Preston !!
You wrote :
” While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and
I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
despite
my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to
have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?”
They said : “it was your own best thinking that got you here,”
When you are there, in the A’s rooms and when you are not in the rooms
(using ) it still your
own best thinking that keep you out-there.
What matter what you do or where you go : it’still your best thinking
that
bring you where ever you are ?/!
So , I do you know what is your best thinking ?
The one who bring you in the rooms or the one who keep you out of the
rooms
?/!
Maybee you should quit or maybee not ?/! Using or thinking,. you never
don’t know .
You are a lot smarter than most of people and you should figure out .
I know that it take a lot of humility to accept to be told what to do,
(even
when people are right.)specialy when you are young, sensible, smart and
confronted closely ( too early ) with the possibility of your own
death.
In my humble opinion : addiction keep you away from the regular , normal
times and rythm of passage in life.
We are like lobter, we have to change our hard shell regularly if we
want
to
grow.When the lobster change her hard shell she feel very vunerable for
a
while but not for ever. She don’t rationalize and just do her job on
going
on with life ..stronger than before.Each one of us have to go throught
this….. Using or not using , soon or later. … but always.
Death could be a premature exit to avoid the change of season; but it’s
not
a good idea to trought away the hard shell with the lobster. I believe
in
reeincarnation, so I am fuck any way 🙂
Change sucks……. so do not changing. It’s your call !
Love you, Man
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal at all,
not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside
such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to
assist
me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to
resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not always
fun
or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying something
along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally agree with
this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates
(the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not
to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the
option
of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a dose,
kill
my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if
I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want to be
able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a source,
and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there ain’t no
source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that I’m
mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular, although I
admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have to
conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or don’t, use
or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it was said
to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own
best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and
I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
despite
my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost
always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to
have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism
substance:
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.<
Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly,
feeling
slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with
dh here, as
this is pretty much bologna.
I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two
times taking
ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t really
count,
because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone
apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so
didn’t supply
quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a
treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did
use that
term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the
first time, I
also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first
time
round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were
nice and
glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards,
but I knew
even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that. I’ve not
yet
admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t
think, but
as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very
depressed the
second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely
negated
the
first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up,
in less than
12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t
quite right,
that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt
that I had
not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire
to
do,
that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single
vision, not
had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and
disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want
to go again
sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation
actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t necessarily
be
abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their
wares. I would
feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the
lines of, “we
don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work
in
two
times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own
environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or
the
folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even
remotely
wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love to take
it
at
Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way,
our
way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go
see this or
that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected
at
meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not
enough/etc.
I
want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my
significant other
think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever
fashion the two
of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want
someone
judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this
heavy so this
much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,”
and that’s
about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at
the same
time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just
this or that
amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand where
it’s
coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this
just
doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me
to do this
stuff.
I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by
laying
out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve had
these
thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
(I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t
help myself,
I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko,
probably even
a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m
freakin all
out ILL! Or something.)
Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing everyone a
good
evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be
all nice
and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or whatever
is
anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
Good to hear of your feelings. Correct me if I’m wrong here –
basically
you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.
Is this right?
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical
about
life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism –
really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 2:41:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where you wrote:
>>What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
>>don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
>>don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
>>Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
>>out of their homes and made to take part.
Are you serious that you think people should be forced out of their homes and then forced into doing things that other people feel they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious. What if we only get one life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks we should do to really get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet peeves is nosy people who feel that they know what is best for everyone else. Being a drug addict it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage of people who get off hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd can’t wait to feel that spiritual better than thouness when they take you by the hand and guide you through all that nastiness and bring you into the light. I have complete respect for people who spend time helping other people, but I think it is important that they don’t try to force people into that help, because it won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking their noses into your private little thought processes! Why not? What are you hiding?
Also when you said you are anti-heroin, I would like to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you think it ruins people’s lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness. Heroin’s a painkiller, an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness, blocks development.
Everything we take acts like a drug in our brains, from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen is probably the most addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about trying to kick oxygen because our quality of life would be pretty shitty without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for some people, because of a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of awareness, chronic immaturity, laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that their quality of life with opiates is higher than without it. All in all it should be up to the individual, as long as they are not hurting any one else, to decide how they want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think dragging people out of their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean it. Drag all those seedy little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the world out into daylight and get to recognize who you really are. Why not? Confront your fears! Show yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in my life that some people would have loved to have the control to stop me, but I am thankful that they couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more understanding about myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If you can’t be in someone else’s head you can’t know what they want or need, so don’t you think it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t my experience. A lot of people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually need. They’re stuck in repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face and hold down feelings, desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten their image of themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go round and round, and if they come past me I try to encourage them to look deeper in whatever way I can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help people, wait until they decide what they want to change, and then help them, as opposed to forcing what you think is best for them upon them? You always seem so positive and up-beat that I think you are probably great at helping people, but from some of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a little forceful (the whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of course it’s hard to know what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from people. And if someone is coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit from useful feedback, then I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am. About knowing how people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails are a bit limited generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 2:32:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Let me lock you up before you do any drugs as preventive imprisonment.
If you are prostituting and Mom gave up on you, you own your dealer money
or your pimp is after you + the police on the other side and you are
paranoid, then please let me
Imprison you for your own safety. where do you live?
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: woensdag 26 januari 2005 20:07
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Let me shoot you up please.
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com
[mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where
you wrote:
What about just being a
general fucking drag, junkie
or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be
great to have some
social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in
life? OK, it could be
abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but
really I think some
people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made
to take part.
Are you serious that you think
people should be forced
out of their homes and then forced into doing things
that other people feel
they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious.
What if we only get one
life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks
we should do to really
get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet
peeves is nosy people
who feel that they know what is best for everyone
else. Being a drug addict
it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage
of people who get off
hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd
can’t wait to feel that
spiritual better than thouness when they take you by
the hand and guide you
through all that nastiness and bring you into the
light. I have complete
respect for people who spend time helping other
people, but I think it is
important that they don’t try to force people into
that help, because it
won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking
their noses into your
private little thought processes! Why not? What are
you hiding?
Also when you said you are
anti-heroin, I would like
to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you
think it ruins people’s
lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness.
Heroin’s a painkiller,
an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness,
blocks development.
Everything we take acts like
a drug in our brains,
from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen
is probably the most
addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about
trying to kick oxygen
because our quality of life would be pretty shitty
without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for
some people, because of
a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of
awareness, chronic immaturity,
laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that
their quality of life
with opiates is higher than without it. All in all
it should be up to the
individual, as long as they are not hurting any one
else, to decide how they
want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think
dragging people out of
their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean
it. Drag all those seedy
little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the
world out into daylight
and get to recognize who you really are. Why not?
Confront your fears! Show
yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in
my life that some people
would have loved to have the control to stop me, but
I am thankful that they
couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more
understanding about
myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If
you can’t be in someone
else’s head you can’t know what they want or need,
so don’t you think it
would be better to let people come to their own
conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t
my experience. A lot of
people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually
need. They’re stuck in
repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face
and hold down feelings,
desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten
their image of
themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go
round and round, and if
they come past me I try to encourage them to look
deeper in whatever way I
can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help
people, wait until they
decide what they want to change, and then help them,
as opposed to forcing
what you think is best for them upon them? You
always seem so positive and
up-beat that I think you are probably great at
helping people, but from some
of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a
little forceful (the
whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of
course it’s hard to know
what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from
people. And if someone is
coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit
from useful feedback, then
I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am.
About knowing how
people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails
are a bit limited
generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
—————————————————————————-
—
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web –
http://www.myway.com
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 2:07:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
(with heroin/cocaine)
“Where do you live?!”
🙂
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com
[mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where
you wrote:
What about just being a
general fucking drag, junkie
or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be
great to have some
social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in
life? OK, it could be
abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but
really I think some
people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made
to take part.
Are you serious that you think
people should be forced
out of their homes and then forced into doing things
that other people feel
they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious.
What if we only get one
life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks
we should do to really
get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet
peeves is nosy people
who feel that they know what is best for everyone
else. Being a drug addict
it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage
of people who get off
hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd
can’t wait to feel that
spiritual better than thouness when they take you by
the hand and guide you
through all that nastiness and bring you into the
light. I have complete
respect for people who spend time helping other
people, but I think it is
important that they don’t try to force people into
that help, because it
won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking
their noses into your
private little thought processes! Why not? What are
you hiding?
Also when you said you are
anti-heroin, I would like
to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you
think it ruins people’s
lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness.
Heroin’s a painkiller,
an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness,
blocks development.
Everything we take acts like
a drug in our brains,
from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen
is probably the most
addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about
trying to kick oxygen
because our quality of life would be pretty shitty
without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for
some people, because of
a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of
awareness, chronic immaturity,
laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that
their quality of life
with opiates is higher than without it. All in all
it should be up to the
individual, as long as they are not hurting any one
else, to decide how they
want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think
dragging people out of
their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean
it. Drag all those seedy
little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the
world out into daylight
and get to recognize who you really are. Why not?
Confront your fears! Show
yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in
my life that some people
would have loved to have the control to stop me, but
I am thankful that they
couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more
understanding about
myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If
you can’t be in someone
else’s head you can’t know what they want or need,
so don’t you think it
would be better to let people come to their own
conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t
my experience. A lot of
people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually
need. They’re stuck in
repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face
and hold down feelings,
desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten
their image of
themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go
round and round, and if
they come past me I try to encourage them to look
deeper in whatever way I
can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help
people, wait until they
decide what they want to change, and then help them,
as opposed to forcing
what you think is best for them upon them? You
always seem so positive and
up-beat that I think you are probably great at
helping people, but from some
of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a
little forceful (the
whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of
course it’s hard to know
what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from
people. And if someone is
coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit
from useful feedback, then
I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am.
About knowing how
people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails
are a bit limited
generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
—————————————————————————-
—
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web –
http://www.myway.com
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 2:06:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Let me shoot you up please.
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com
[mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary
fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where
you wrote:
What about just being a
general fucking drag, junkie
or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be
great to have some
social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in
life? OK, it could be
abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but
really I think some
people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made
to take part.
Are you serious that you think
people should be forced
out of their homes and then forced into doing things
that other people feel
they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious.
What if we only get one
life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks
we should do to really
get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet
peeves is nosy people
who feel that they know what is best for everyone
else. Being a drug addict
it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage
of people who get off
hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd
can’t wait to feel that
spiritual better than thouness when they take you by
the hand and guide you
through all that nastiness and bring you into the
light. I have complete
respect for people who spend time helping other
people, but I think it is
important that they don’t try to force people into
that help, because it
won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking
their noses into your
private little thought processes! Why not? What are
you hiding?
Also when you said you are
anti-heroin, I would like
to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you
think it ruins people’s
lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness.
Heroin’s a painkiller,
an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness,
blocks development.
Everything we take acts like
a drug in our brains,
from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen
is probably the most
addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about
trying to kick oxygen
because our quality of life would be pretty shitty
without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for
some people, because of
a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of
awareness, chronic immaturity,
laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that
their quality of life
with opiates is higher than without it. All in all
it should be up to the
individual, as long as they are not hurting any one
else, to decide how they
want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think
dragging people out of
their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean
it. Drag all those seedy
little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the
world out into daylight
and get to recognize who you really are. Why not?
Confront your fears! Show
yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in
my life that some people
would have loved to have the control to stop me, but
I am thankful that they
couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more
understanding about
myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If
you can’t be in someone
else’s head you can’t know what they want or need,
so don’t you think it
would be better to let people come to their own
conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t
my experience. A lot of
people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually
need. They’re stuck in
repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face
and hold down feelings,
desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten
their image of
themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go
round and round, and if
they come past me I try to encourage them to look
deeper in whatever way I
can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help
people, wait until they
decide what they want to change, and then help them,
as opposed to forcing
what you think is best for them upon them? You
always seem so positive and
up-beat that I think you are probably great at
helping people, but from some
of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a
little forceful (the
whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of
course it’s hard to know
what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from
people. And if someone is
coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit
from useful feedback, then
I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am.
About knowing how
people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails
are a bit limited
generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
—————————————————————————-
—
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web –
http://www.myway.com
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 1:45:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: thethird@myway.com [mailto:thethird@myway.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Hey Nick, I read a post where you wrote:
>>What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
>>don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
>>don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
>>Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
>>out of their homes and made to take part.
Are you serious that you think people should be forced out of their homes and then forced into doing things that other people feel they should do.
Yes! Where do you live?!
That sounds pretty serious. What if we only get one life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks we should do to really get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet peeves is nosy people who feel that they know what is best for everyone else. Being a drug addict it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage of people who get off hearing all the gritty details of your life a nd can’t wait to feel that spiritual better than thouness when they take you by the hand and guide you through all that nastiness and bring you into the light. I have complete respect for people who spend time helping other people, but I think it is important that they don’t try to force people into that help, because it won’t work unless that person wants to be helped.
You don’t want people poking their noses into your private little thought processes! Why not? What are you hiding?
Also when you said you are anti-heroin, I would like to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you think it ruins people’s lives?
No, because I’m pro-awareness. Heroin’s a painkiller, an analgesic. It numbs you out and blocks awareness, blocks development.
Everything we take acts like a drug in our brains, from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen is probably the most addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about trying to kick oxygen because our quality of life would be pretty shitty without it,
This is true
and I truly believe that for some people, because of a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, lack of awareness, chronic immaturity, laziness (just to give both sides) or whatever, that their quality of life with opiates is higher than without it. All in all it should be up to the individual, as long as they are not hurting any one else, to decide how they want to live their life.
Well, I don’t agree. I think dragging people out of their homes is a far better option. Really, I mean it. Drag all those seedy little secrets that you don’t want to reveal to the world out into daylight and get to recognize who you really are. Why not? Confront your fears! Show yourself! Give it!
I’ve done a lot of things in my life that some people would have loved to have the control to stop me, but I am thankful that they couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more understanding about myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If you can’t be in someone else’s head you can’t know what they want or need, so don’t you think it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions,
I’m sorry, but this just isn’t my experience. A lot of people don’t seem to have a clue what they actually need. They’re stuck in repetitive patterns in life, trying to maintain face and hold down feelings, desperate to cling to anything that doesn’t theaten their image of themselves, few more so than addicts. They just go round and round, and if they come past me I try to encourage them to look deeper in whatever way I can. I’m learning.
and then, if you like to help people, wait until they decide what they want to change, and then help them, as opposed to forcing what you think is best for them upon them? You always seem so positive and up-beat that I think you are probably great at helping people, but from some of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a little forceful (the whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of course it’s hard to know what people are like from a few emails.
I like people. I learn from people. And if someone is coming into my vicinity who I think could benefit from useful feedback, then I give it. My energy is pro-active, that’s how I am. About knowing how people are, for sure it’s hard from emails. Emails are a bit limited generally but, still, something can happen!
love
Nick
Laura
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] HSS violates first amendment
Date: January 26, 2005 at 1:34:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I forgot who posted all the HSS stock mail to the list this month, I
think it was Brett? (sorry if it isn’t). The center for cognitive
liberties, is filing suits to stop the use of HSS as a violation of
freedom of thought and the first amendment.
Besides the potential use of HSS as a weapon, It looks like they feel
the same way as Dave Hunter did about the idea of advertising being
beamed into his head.
.:vector:.
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/issues/first_amend_index.html
FREEDOM OF THOUGHT & THE FIRST AMENDMENT
The United States Supreme Court has recognized:
“Freedom of thought… is the matrix, the indispensable condition, of
nearly every other form of freedom. With rare aberrations a pervasive
recognition of this truth can be traced in our history, political and
legal” (Palko v. Connecticut (1937) 302 U.S. 319, 326-27.)
Without freedom of thought, the First Amendment right to freedom of
speech is moot, because you can only express what you can think.
Constraining or censoring how a person thinks (cognitive censorship) is
the most fundamental kind of censorship, and is contrary to some of our
most cherished constitutional principles.
In 2003, the CCLE filed a legal brief on the relationship between
Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Thought, and psychotropic drugs in the
United States Supreme Court. We are now examining other aspects of the
First Amendment that protect freedom of thought. Scientists, for
example, are discovering that nearly everyone engages in what they are
terming “internal speech.” We use language to navigate within our own
thoughts. The CCLE is examining whether the freedom of speech protects
“internal speech.” (We think it does, and we’re working to prove it).
In addition, while most people are capable of shutting their eyes and
thereby blocking out external images, it is not so easy to shut one’s
ears. New technology like Hypersonic Sound — which transmits a beam of
sound that is silent until you walk into it — is raising the question
of what rights people have to internal auditory integrity. If the First
Amendment blocks the government from putting words in a person’s mouth,
does it also block the government from putting words in a person’s
head? (We think it does, and we’re working to prove it).
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] I’m going to stick my dick in the mashed potetoes
Date: January 26, 2005 at 12:50:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Some Ibo Vids:
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/archive.cgi?q=ibogaine
“stick mY dick in tha mashed potatoes” sound comes
from ISBN: 724382859925 Trk 3
Fair Use Contact?
Try http://capitalrecords.com/contact.htm
to see, I dunno.
I figure they got it from someone else so Why Not?
Nick, I think the term “fencing in” comes across a
little threatening and sounds like coming from a
source that doesn’t take it’s own perspective with a
grain of salt. (Umm..I do that too if you can’t
already tell)
I couldn’t agree with “Hi Feds”Preston more re: it’s
not as simple as heroin bad/ibogaine good, because,
well, it’s just not.
Some almost conclusions I have reached through My
Limited experience is Prohibition of “drugs” (Ibo AND
Heroin too) caused/causes MUCH more damage then the
“drugs” themselves could ever cause. Way More. All
the way down to
Invoking Shame
Because they have some sort of self percieved moral
authority to invoke it.
In case you haven’t noticed, Junkies don’t like being
told what to do, just like non junkies.
I like people to give me my options then let me
decide.
How am I not supposed to see this as scarry?:
“a fencing-in tool”
“I think some people should just be
dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.”
I couldn’t disagree more with what is written here:
“I mean ibogaine IS
fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose
it.”
HOw can you use fencing-in and liberating
consciousness together like that, dat dunt muk scaunse
2 me mohn.
You mention treatment centers that do this, well ok.
If they were that sucessful at it we wouldn’t be here
talking about Ibogaine.
People aren’t bad people just because they eat
chocolate, Same with Opiate users (moderate or
heavy).
I have been “clean” <– see even that term is loaded
with SHame, to imply that if not meeting some
determined (by who) formula that I am somehow
“unclean”, can we say bRa1NwA$h1nG?
Anyways without Methadone or opiates for going on 2
years now. I am Cynical as FUck, always have been. I
don’t think that just because I choose not to, that
everybody in the world has to stop too, again, not
taking own perspective with a grain of salt.
I don’t think hugging/saying fuck off, fuzzy
feelings/resentful feeling, some oneiric Christ
experience, overanalysing or underanaylsing is NOT
required, each has different goals when taking ibo.
If I could be arrested and given my prescribed
medication I wouldn’t think twice about getting on and
staying on for life, but that ain’t how it is, so I
don’t.
Nick, I don’t really have a problem with what you
are saying, I just think their may be a more workable
way to communicate what you are trying to get across,
that’s all.
“I like it when I can see the whole person,”
You have to have trust first. Making LOve and
Fucking are not the same thing. If you want to see
the whole person…use the terms “ego” and “fencing
in” More More More, or not.
Ok enough of dat.
<tucking sheets n bed>
May I hear the Blue Pearl Story Please?
[* *]
(_)
Sp^ce k0k0
___________________________________________________________
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Pain killers and group therapy
Date: January 26, 2005 at 12:40:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston, I think you know how I feel about pain killers. I love ’em, but they
don’t love me. It isn’t the dope that I don’t like, it is what my addiction
made me do that I didn’t like. Flipping out on my family when I was short on
dope, or out completely, having to bow to some mother fucker I can’t stand to
get a hook up, and being so emotionally unstable that no one would trust me with
good or bad information. If I had a Doc who would give me all the dope that I
needed I don’t know if I ever would stop. I never could find that Doc. AA
helped me and AA kept my addiction going too. I would go to an AA group and talk
about drugs and some old timer would tell me to keep my discusion to alcohol
and the problems it caused. Well in that case I can do all the dope I want and
still be OK as long as I don’t drink. I had a script, maybe not for the oxy’s
I was doing, but I had a script. Look at me I haven’t had a drink in 5 years,
just don’t look too close at my veins. Fuck that. I go to meetings to get
what I want now. I don’t fall for all the bullshit anymore. My peace of mind is
my own, I don’t need somebody to tell me if I’m happy or clean enough or what
the fuck ever. I feel for you dude. I wish I could say something that would
help you. All I can say is that I send you my love and that I have a supreme
desire for you to be happy and relatively pain free. I don’t know about scream
therapy, but I do know that when shit gets bad I crank up the jams till my ears
ring, and it helps. Randy
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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism:Nick
Date: January 26, 2005 at 12:11:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Nick, I read a post where you wrote:
>>What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
>>don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
>>don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
>>Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
>>out of their homes and made to take part.
Are you serious that you think people should be forced out of their homes and then forced into doing things that other people feel they should do. That sounds pretty serious. What if we only get one life and here is some jerk telling us what he thinks we should do to really get the most of it. I have to say that one of my pet peeves is nosy people who feel that they know what is best for everyone else. Being a drug addict it becomes pretty obvious that there is no shortage of people who get off hearing all the gritty details of your life and can’t wait to feel that spiritual better than thouness when they take you by the hand and guide you through all that nastiness and bring you into the light. I have complete respect for people who spend time helping other people, but I think it is important that they don’t try to force people into that help, because it won’t work unless that person wants to be helped. Also when you said you are anti-heroin, I would like to ask you why. Because it is so addictive and you think it ruins people’s lives? Everything we take acts like a drug in our brains, from the food we eat to the air we breathe. Oxygen is probably the most addictive thing out there, but nobody thinks about trying to kick oxygen because our quality of life would be pretty shitty without it, and I truly believe that for some people, because of a chemical imbalance, pain reasons, or whatever, that their quality of life with opiates is higher than without it. All in all it should be up to the individual, as long as they are not hurting any one else, to decide how they want to live their life. I’ve done a lot of things in my life that some people would have loved to have the control to stop me, but I am thankful that they couldn’t because I got a lot from those things, more understanding about myself and what I wanted this life to be about. If you can’t be in someone else’s head you can’t know what they want or need, so don’t you think it would be better to let people come to their own conclusions, and then, if you like to help people, wait until they decide what they want to change, and then help them, as opposed to forcing what you think is best for them upon them? You always seem so positive and up-beat that I think you are probably great at helping people, but from some of your posts I got the feeling that you could be a little forceful (the whole dragging people out of their homes thing). Of course it’s hard to know what people are like from a few emails.
Laura
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 26, 2005 at 11:21:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Kirsty,
I take 100 mgs of 5htp in the morning and I have noticed a difference in the levels of my anxiety and depression. But, if I try and remember back to when I was on zoloft I would say that zoloft made more of a difference. In fact, because I get such bad panic attacks during school I am thinking about going back on something like zoloft, at least until I get settled back into the routine of being in class. I’m thinking about decreasing the 5htp, but am a little nervous about it, but I assume that I have to stop taking it if I go back on zoloft. There was an interesting book out awhile ago about 5htp and it explained how much to take for certain problems, but I can’t remember the name of it. I will try looking for it, and I can look something up in it if there is any info that you’d like to know.
— On Tue 01/25, Kirsty Sutherland < captkirk@kol.co.nz > wrote:
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto: captkirk@kol.co.nz]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:57:38 +1300
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Thank you muchly…will look into it (for depression at the mo…)
:o)
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 7:04 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
hi Kirk,
Here is a link to a short, concise description of
5HTP:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/5-htp.htm
5-HTP is the chemical precursor to serotonin. I took
one capsule about 24 hours after my treatment, and
could swear I felt some of the Ibogaine’s effects come
back.
Julie
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Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 10:52:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 26 January 2005 14:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats,
that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
living that.<
Nick, that’s a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone
might have
enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the
direction they
feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to force me to do
so…oh, wait, that’s already happening with the whole stinkin’
war on some
drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as
loving or at
least caring as you come across being.
Hi Preston,
Well, for me, I like to be able to feel someone, you know. Feel who they
are, connect with them. I’m not so interested in being presented with the
drug-edited version of who they are that they want to show the world. For
sure, we all hide ourselves, drug-users or otherwise, but it’s a drag. I
like it when I can see the whole person, including all the crazy or bad shit
they think they have to hide away. Druggies are no different from anybody
else in this.
And I think a bit of fencing-in is fine. The whole “therapeutic community”
concept, from Synanon to Phoenix House to Humaniversity, I think it’s great.
When you’re surrounded by others 24 hours a day, reflecting your behaviour
back at you, you get to find out who you are pretty quickly – what you’ll
back down about, what you’ll take a stand about, what you care about, and
what you’ll let go. The core of Christianity was the same – the whole
crucifixion thing is a metaphor, it means you stay in once place and you
face your shit, they called it the Fixed Cross in astrology – a few zillion
incarnations on the Mutable cross, then you’re initiated on the Fixed cross
and have to look, then, when freed from delusion you get to hang out on the
Cardinal cross. It’s the same principle throughout mythology and symbolism –
JC on his cross, Odin on his tree, whatever. Bwiti the same, iboga
initiation means you’re incapacitated on the drug and you have to look at
yourself. That’s what it’s all about psychologically. I mean, you can come
towards ibogaine from the whole pain-management and neurochemical
perspective and that’s totally fine. But make no mistake, when you start
dealing with larger doses you’re dealing with a fencing-in tool par
excellence. This is a strange place to hang out if you’re not into
fencing-in!
Again, you wrote >I’m not advocating that junkies are made social
scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness.<
This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping
their use, I
would hope you would leave them alone (unless they’re breaking into your
home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means, take action
and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to force others to
curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you
competely
shocks me and saddens me.
What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
don’t you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don’t want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.
That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m
pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want
to try and
shift me from it.<
Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it, unless you
try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your
viewpoint?
Then I’ll not only shift you, I’ll probably fight you tooth and nail with
all my heart.
To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not
that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” <
Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and
“go a little
deeper” is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest, at least not
for me. It’s too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment
plans. Ick as
hell.
Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from
ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking
ibogaine and
still get something (beneficial I mean- I’m not talking about the
“ah shit,
I’m running low” stuff) from opiates.
Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling encroached
upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad,
pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don’t know, not
me? To me it
simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big white horse and
looking down from your self-described position of enlightened
enlightenment
and saying how much better you are than those who still want to
use opiates
for whatever reason. That’s the message I’m gradually getting
from you Nick,
and I must say I’m a bit surprised to read from anyone on a list dealing
with ibogaine that they’re into the idea of forcing people into fenced in
enclosures because they use the wrong drugs.
Well, fencing-in stuff I talked about above. I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness – enclose it. Let it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself. And I’m not enlightened, I
don’t even know what it means. I live in a community I love and I work and I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.
with love
Nick
Damn, that’s scary, as I’ve
already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite
pointedly blunt here, but I’m not actually feeling hostile in
your directon
Nick, but rather, I’m very strongly disagreeing with you and
attempting to
explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary
and to me,
well, wrong.
;-))
But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you
don’t ever have
any power over me, I won’t ever want to “shift you away” or stop you from
expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you,
nor would I
want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force you to look
deeper. I’d love to read from you, “oh, you know what, yer right Preston,
what was I thinking,” but don’t expect to see that, and don’t
particularly
care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have
enough power to
force me to do anything.
The whole notion that it’s ok to force others into life situations
because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary
and facist so
far as I define fascism.
It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it
showed me
my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
interract with
people but not communicate to them what I know.<
As the title to one of Disinfo’s books puts it, “Everything you ‘KNOW’ is
Wrong.”
Nuther ;-))
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 26, 2005 at 9:27:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jerry,
I don’t know about anyone else, but I would love to
hear about your encounters with the ‘blue pearl’….
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
Date: January 26, 2005 at 9:26:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
living that.<
Nick, that’s a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone might have enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the direction they feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to force me to do so…oh, wait, that’s already happening with the whole stinkin’ war on some drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as loving or at least caring as you come across being.
Again, you wrote >I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness.<
This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping their use, I would hope you would leave them alone (unless they’re breaking into your home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means, take action and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to force others to curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you competely shocks me and saddens me.
That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want to try and
shift me from it.<
Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it, unless you try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your viewpoint? Then I’ll not only shift you, I’ll probably fight you tooth and nail with all my heart.
To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” <
Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and “go a little deeper” is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest, at least not for me. It’s too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment plans. Ick as hell.
Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking ibogaine and still get something (beneficial I mean- I’m not talking about the “ah shit, I’m running low” stuff) from opiates.
Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling encroached upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad, pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don’t know, not me? To me it simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big white horse and looking down from your self-described position of enlightened enlightenment and saying how much better you are than those who still want to use opiates for whatever reason. That’s the message I’m gradually getting from you Nick, and I must say I’m a bit surprised to read from anyone on a list dealing with ibogaine that they’re into the idea of forcing people into fenced in enclosures because they use the wrong drugs. Damn, that’s scary, as I’ve already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite pointedly blunt here, but I’m not actually feeling hostile in your directon Nick, but rather, I’m very strongly disagreeing with you and attempting to explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary and to me, well, wrong.
;-))
But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you don’t ever have any power over me, I won’t ever want to “shift you away” or stop you from expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you, nor would I want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force you to look deeper. I’d love to read from you, “oh, you know what, yer right Preston, what was I thinking,” but don’t expect to see that, and don’t particularly care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have enough power to force me to do anything.
The whole notion that it’s ok to force others into life situations because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary and facist so far as I define fascism.
It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it showed me my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to interract with people but not communicate to them what I know.<
As the title to one of Disinfo’s books puts it, “Everything you ‘KNOW’ is Wrong.”
Nuther ;-))
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi Preston,
Sorry if I come on a bit haughty, it’s not my intention. I don’t know it all
by a long shot. It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and
it showed me my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
interract with people but not communicate to them what I know. OK, so that’s
my trip but I’m going to keep laying it on people because that is what I do.
And I’m going to keep learning. I don’t like to see people using opiates,
except for temporary pain control in crisis situations. That’s my trip, man.
I wanna change the fucking world. Personally, if Ekki wants to complain
about the German government trying to fence addicts in, well, to me, it’s
fair enough what they do. Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
living that.
That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want to try and
shift me from it.
To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” The
whole fencing-in of the personal perspective is broken by the drug. For me,
I believe that’s why they take it in Africa. For sure, it happened to me
when I took it in London, and in the Cameroun.
I’m not talking about you personally here, it’s general.
Anyway, that’s my position. I apologize if it seems haughty to you or anyone
else but this is my position. Che sera.
With love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 25 January 2005 23:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
> Sent: 25 January 2005 22:07
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
>
>
> Hi all,
> Nick asked,
>
> >Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
> want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
> terms.<
>
> No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal
> at all, not
> at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
> Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside > such
> constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to
> assist me
> with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
> occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able
to resist
> going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not
> always fun or
> easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying
> something along
> the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally
> agree with this
> idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates > (the
> physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come
across, not to
> mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the
> option of
> what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a
> dose, kill my
> tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if > I
> need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want
> to be able
> to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
> gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a
> source, and
> at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
> possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there
> ain’t no source
> to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
> listening/reading?)
> So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that
> I’m mainly
> just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular,
> although I admit
> I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
> different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
> things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have
> to conform
> to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or
> don’t, use or
> don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it
> was said to
> me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own > best
> thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those
rooms, and I’ve
> been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
> despite my
> need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost > always
> legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs,
> just to have
> the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
> Any thoughts anyone?
>
> Peace and love,
> Preston
>
Hey Preston,
I’d just point out that the human body and mind are just machines
at the end
of the day. Your personality is unique in that everything is unique, but
it’s just a structure. And, research has shown, if you put that
personality
through the processes of therapy it becomes a lot more efficient – a lot
calmer and happier, more capable of getting its needs met directly, a lot
more grounded. In early life, people develop a fascination with proving to
themselves their own uniqueness, and that’s fine, but it usually wears off
with advancing years and a more practical approach develops. What
I’m try to
say is….does it really matter so much what you do with therapy, ibogaine
or whatever? That you have to conform to someone else’s protocol – is it
really such a big deal? I mean, where do you have a way of evaluating
something if you haven’t tried it anyway? Can you really tell if something
won’t work for you if you don’t go fully into it, just to see, without a
pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my
own sense of
uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I really
appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of
doing groups,
ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider
world, it’s a
gift, man, the greatest journey there is.
with love
Nick
> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is > often
> mistaken for madness”
> Richard Davenport-Hines
>
> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
> Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
> Cont. High Times mag/.com
> Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> Columnist New York Waste
> Etc.
>
>
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hokey pokey icecream? LOL!
Date: January 26, 2005 at 8:58:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Francis asked >What matter what you do or where you go : it’still your best thinking that
bring you where ever you are ?/!
So , I do you know what is your best thinking ?
The one who bring you in the rooms or the one who keep you out of the rooms<
The one who keeps me out of rooms where people tell me I have to comform to a different way of doing things or I’m never going to be happy. As was the message I repeatedly got from most groups no matter what. The only “group” I ever attended this didn’t happen with was the loosely meeting ibo group here in NYC, but it wasn’t very exciting and I went just twice due to irritation right away with another person there in attendence. Plus, it turned out to be just a meeting of people in a park to chat about stuff, and ended up with me feeling like I should be doing something else instead of sitting and chatting.
You are correct though Francis, that it is my “best thinking” that keeps me where I am and takes me where I go. And I’m not complaining about it at all- I’m usually when posting sad or depressed note here just venting and trying to get that sort of feeling out of me and onto paper/email/into print somehow, as that helps me cope. Plus, this here list is a group of sorts too come to think of it, and this one I do enjoy, a lot. So I do get something out of some group situations, just not sitting in rooms with lots of other people.
Kirsty nailed it with her reminder that there’s the pain issue too that some seem to be ignoring, or brushing off. That’s an irritating thing- when folk (which hasn’t actually happened here, yet, or at least, not too much) tell me there are great ways to get through life without pain killers and to deal with pain without pain killers and etc, etc. Great, I’m happy for those who can and do make it through life in pain without pain killers, but I don’t feel like being one of them, nor with trying to cope with this sort of non-stop pain and anguish without pain killers. Yuck. Doesn’t appeal to me at all.
But that all said, the hoky pokey icecream does sound appealing, and I want some- NOW! That might turn myself around, ’cause I know that what it’s all about. Right?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:12 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism, ibogaine, and hokey pokey icecream……
I think people are missing the main point here……..what about the pain???
And I argue (again) that since there IS no right and no wrong… then nobody
CAN be right!!!
(And by the way, I’m always right, even when I’m wrong, I am right.)
Koiky
—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 7:03 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism and ibogaine
Hi Preston !!
You wrote :
” While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?”
They said : “it was your own best thinking that got you here,”
When you are there, in the A’s rooms and when you are not in the rooms
(using ) it still your
own best thinking that keep you out-there.
What matter what you do or where you go : it’still your best thinking that
bring you where ever you are ?/!
So , I do you know what is your best thinking ?
The one who bring you in the rooms or the one who keep you out of the rooms
?/!
Maybee you should quit or maybee not ?/! Using or thinking,. you never
don’t know .
You are a lot smarter than most of people and you should figure out .
I know that it take a lot of humility to accept to be told what to do, (even
when people are right.)specialy when you are young, sensible, smart and
confronted closely ( too early ) with the possibility of your own death.
In my humble opinion : addiction keep you away from the regular , normal
times and rythm of passage in life.
We are like lobter, we have to change our hard shell regularly if we want to
grow.When the lobster change her hard shell she feel very vunerable for a
while but not for ever. She don’t rationalize and just do her job on going
on with life ..stronger than before.Each one of us have to go throught
this….. Using or not using , soon or later. … but always.
Death could be a premature exit to avoid the change of season; but it’s not
a good idea to trought away the hard shell with the lobster. I believe in
reeincarnation, so I am fuck any way 🙂
Change sucks……. so do not changing. It’s your call !
Love you, Man
Francis
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
>Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal at all,
not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to assist
me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not always fun
or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying something
along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally agree with
this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the option
of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a dose, kill
my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want to be
able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a source,
and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there ain’t no
source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular, although I
admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have to
conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen despite
my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
>
>
>> —–Original Message—–
>> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
>> Sent: 25 January 2005 00:10
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
>>
>>
>> dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism
>> substance:
>>
>> >100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
>>
>> no additives or preservatives, either.
>>
>> Virgin Bullshit.<
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly,
feeling
>> slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with
>> dh here, as
>> this is pretty much bologna.
>> I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two
>> times taking
>> ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t really >> count,
>> because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone
>> apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so
>> didn’t supply
>> quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a
>> treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did
>> use that
>> term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the
>> first time, I
>> also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first
time
>> round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were
>> nice and
>> glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards,
>> but I knew
>> even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that. I’ve not >> yet
>> admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t
>> think, but
>> as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very
>> depressed the
>> second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely negated
the
>> first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up,
>> in less than
>> 12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t
>> quite right,
>> that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt
>> that I had
>> not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire to
do,
>> that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single
>> vision, not
>> had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and
>> disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want
>> to go again
>> sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
>> I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation
>> actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t necessarily be
>> abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their
>> wares. I would
>> feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the
>> lines of, “we
>> don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work in
two
>> times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own
>> environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or
the
>> folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even
>> remotely
>> wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love to take it
at
>> Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way,
our
>> way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go
>> see this or
>> that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected at
>> meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not >> enough/etc.
I
>> want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my
>> significant other
>> think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever
>> fashion the two
>> of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want
someone
>> judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this
>> heavy so this
>> much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,”
>> and that’s
>> about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at
>> the same
>> time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just
>> this or that
>> amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand where >> it’s
>> coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this
just
>> doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me
>> to do this
>> stuff.
>> I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by
laying
>> out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve had these
>> thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
>> (I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t
>> help myself,
>> I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko,
>> probably even
>> a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m
>> freakin all
>> out ILL! Or something.)
>> Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing everyone a >> good
>> evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be
>> all nice
>> and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or whatever is
>> anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
>>
>>
>> Peace and love,
>> Preston
>
> Hey Preston,
>
> Good to hear of your feelings. Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically
> you
> want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
> terms.
> Is this right?
>
> Nick
>
>
>>
>> “Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
>> mistaken for madness”
>> Richard Davenport-Hines
>>
>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>> Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>> Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>> Cont. High Times mag/.com
>> Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>> Columnist New York Waste
>> Etc.
>>
>>
>> —– Original Message —–
>> From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
>> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
>>
>>
>> >>>> And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical
about
>> >>>> life, then
>> >>>> it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism –
really!
>> >
>> > 100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
>> >
>> > no additives or preservatives, either.
>> >
>> > Virgin Bullshit.
>> >
>> > _.dh
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> /]=—————————————————————
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>> > [%]
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> /]=—————————————————————
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 26, 2005 at 7:40:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Guys
As you know i am planning to detox from heroin in a couple of weeks I was thinking would taking a smaller dose of ibogaine at the start of detox help?????? (I was having ibo but treatment fell through) I am using subutex, I wondered if I self administered a small dose of ibo and then see how I felt what do you think??????
love donna
From: Martin Steldinger <tribble@hanfplantage.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] video of a ibogaine session
Date: January 26, 2005 at 6:58:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi there,
i’d like to know if there are any video footages of a typical ibogaine
session? As in the book “staten island project – the ibogaine story”
described a session is almost 36h and much sleep involved?
Here in Berlin, Germany there is a Hemp Museum. Dana was here once as a
speaker on the “Hanf Parade”. We are building an video archive of various
topics related to drugs and some material about ibogaine would be great.
read you,
t.
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From: Martin Steldinger <tribble@hanfplantage.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibongaine conference in february
Date: January 26, 2005 at 6:45:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi there,
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, knowone knowwhere wrote:
My bad again lol
I ment:
[..]
that looks interessting. are there any rights on the tracks? i’d like to
put it into my drug related internet radio if there is no problem withit.
read you,
t.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 26, 2005 at 6:35:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto:captkirk@kol.co.nz]
Sent: 26 January 2005 10:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
I have to ask then, if people with major pain problems shouldn’t take
opiates to help, then what should they do? I’ve suffered pain….I’ve
swallowed a lot of pills, opiate and non-opiate, I’ve meditated (trust me,
unless you are a novice, it’s bluddy hard when you’re in pain,
try doing it
when you’re hangin’), I’ve had reiki, I’ve learnt reiki…. massage is
pretty bluddy amazing, but I can’t afford it when I need it…..
Which leaves??????????????????????????????????????????
Pure smack! Yehhhhhhh!!! Addiction, yes, damage to other organs? No.
Interested to hear what else there is…………..
Kirk
Hi Kirk,
If that’s all you can do, then I guess that’s all you can do. I’ve haven’t
had the experience of being overwhelmed with pain all day long so bad I
couldn’t release it, so I’ve no knowledge here. If you’re in daily agony and
just can’t function at all, then for sure, you’re going to likely get into
painkillers. All I can talk about is my experience, which so far is that
pain seems to me to be an attempt by the body to expand. When you really
scream it the fuck out, and it can take a year or so to learn this, then the
body expands, physically and energetically, and it can support a level of
daily feeling that previously wasn’t possible. I guess, if you do all this
and you’re still in agony then painkillers would seem a pretty good option.
Hope this helps.
Love
Nick
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism, ibogaine, and hokey pokey icecream……
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:31:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Other people no doubt have different ways of dealing with pain. And others
probably have more of it to deal with on a regular basis.
Nick
Yes! It’s called “BED, CRAWL INTO AND UNDER THE DOONA (DUVET) AND TELL THE
WORLD TO PISS THE HELL OFF~!!!!!!” (that’s the emotional shit…)
And you know what I’ve done for physical….
—
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:18:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have to ask then, if people with major pain problems shouldn’t take
opiates to help, then what should they do? I’ve suffered pain….I’ve
swallowed a lot of pills, opiate and non-opiate, I’ve meditated (trust me,
unless you are a novice, it’s bluddy hard when you’re in pain, try doing it
when you’re hangin’), I’ve had reiki, I’ve learnt reiki…. massage is
pretty bluddy amazing, but I can’t afford it when I need it…..
Which leaves??????????????????????????????????????????
Pure smack! Yehhhhhhh!!! Addiction, yes, damage to other organs? No.
Interested to hear what else there is…………..
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 10:54 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi Preston,
Sorry if I come on a bit haughty, it’s not my intention. I don’t know it all
by a long shot. It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and
it showed me my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
interract with people but not communicate to them what I know. OK, so that’s
my trip but I’m going to keep laying it on people because that is what I do.
And I’m going to keep learning. I don’t like to see people using opiates,
except for temporary pain control in crisis situations. That’s my trip, man.
I wanna change the fucking world. Personally, if Ekki wants to complain
about the German government trying to fence addicts in, well, to me, it’s
fair enough what they do. Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
living that.
That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want to try and
shift me from it.
To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” The
whole fencing-in of the personal perspective is broken by the drug. For me,
I believe that’s why they take it in Africa. For sure, it happened to me
when I took it in London, and in the Cameroun.
I’m not talking about you personally here, it’s general.
Anyway, that’s my position. I apologize if it seems haughty to you or anyone
else but this is my position. Che sera.
With love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 25 January 2005 23:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 22:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal
at all, not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to
assist me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able
to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not
always fun or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying
something along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally
agree with this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come
across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the
option of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a
dose, kill my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want
to be able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a
source, and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there
ain’t no source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that
I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular,
although I admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have
to conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or
don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it
was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those
rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs,
just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
I’d just point out that the human body and mind are just machines
at the end
of the day. Your personality is unique in that everything is unique, but
it’s just a structure. And, research has shown, if you put that
personality
through the processes of therapy it becomes a lot more efficient – a lot
calmer and happier, more capable of getting its needs met directly, a lot
more grounded. In early life, people develop a fascination with proving to
themselves their own uniqueness, and that’s fine, but it usually wears off
with advancing years and a more practical approach develops. What
I’m try to
say is….does it really matter so much what you do with therapy, ibogaine
or whatever? That you have to conform to someone else’s protocol – is it
really such a big deal? I mean, where do you have a way of evaluating
something if you haven’t tried it anyway? Can you really tell if something
won’t work for you if you don’t go fully into it, just to see, without a
pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my
own sense of
uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I really
appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of
doing groups,
ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider
world, it’s a
gift, man, the greatest journey there is.
with love
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism, ibogaine, and hokey pokey icecream……
Date: January 26, 2005 at 5:16:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
OK, OK, about the pain! Personally, the only regular experience of pain,
physical pain, I have is from a botched ankle operation I had as kid, my
achilles tendons didn’t grow and the surgeons thought it would be a good
strategy to cut them. But it went a bit wrong somewhere and my right one
still hurts a lot at times. What I find helps is screaming! Screaming really
fucking loud, from the belly, on a daily basis really moves it. Sometimes I
also squirt a bit of tobacco liquid up my nostrils first, something I
learned from a man called Ratu Bagus, this certainly helps access the
feelings. According to doctors and my mother “I’ve had a lot of pain in my
life” from surgery and stuff, but personally it doesn’t really bother me
now. So, I’m not a pain expert but shouting like fuck works for me. Sure you
have to find somewhere you can do it without freaking people out. And it
takes a bit of practise til you can get the body open enough to shout really
loud.
About emotional pain, my experience is that it doesn’t exist. It’s a mind
trip. There is the fear of pain and the fear of re-experiencing pain but,
when you really look, hey where is that pain!? The body contracts with the
expectation of pain, that pain is coming, but it’s just the mind. You
breathe, you move, you make a sound, and the body relaxes. Again, it can
take a little practice to get the experience and see that actually
everything is OK, that it’s all in the mind.
Other people no doubt have different ways of dealing with pain. And others
probably have more of it to deal with on a regular basis.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto:captkirk@kol.co.nz]
Sent: 26 January 2005 09:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism, ibogaine, and hokey pokey
icecream……
I think people are missing the main point here……..what about
the pain???
And I argue (again) that since there IS no right and no wrong…
then nobody
CAN be right!!!
(And by the way, I’m always right, even when I’m wrong, I am right.)
Koiky
—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 7:03 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism and ibogaine
Hi Preston !!
You wrote :
” While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?”
They said : “it was your own best thinking that got you here,”
When you are there, in the A’s rooms and when you are not in the rooms
(using ) it still your
own best thinking that keep you out-there.
What matter what you do or where you go : it’still your best thinking that
bring you where ever you are ?/!
So , I do you know what is your best thinking ?
The one who bring you in the rooms or the one who keep you out of
the rooms
?/!
Maybee you should quit or maybee not ?/! Using or thinking,. you never
don’t know .
You are a lot smarter than most of people and you should figure out .
I know that it take a lot of humility to accept to be told what
to do, (even
when people are right.)specialy when you are young, sensible, smart and
confronted closely ( too early ) with the possibility of your own death.
In my humble opinion : addiction keep you away from the regular , normal
times and rythm of passage in life.
We are like lobter, we have to change our hard shell regularly if
we want to
grow.When the lobster change her hard shell she feel very vunerable for a
while but not for ever. She don’t rationalize and just do her job on going
on with life ..stronger than before.Each one of us have to go throught
this….. Using or not using , soon or later. … but always.
Death could be a premature exit to avoid the change of season;
but it’s not
a good idea to trought away the hard shell with the lobster. I believe in
reeincarnation, so I am fuck any way 🙂
Change sucks……. so do not changing. It’s your call !
Love you, Man
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal at all,
not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to assist
me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able
to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not always fun
or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying something
along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally agree with
this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come
across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the option
of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a
dose, kill
my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want to be
able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a source,
and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there ain’t no
source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that
I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular, although I
admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have to
conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or
don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it
was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those
rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street
denizen despite
my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs,
just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism
substance:
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.<
Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly,
feeling
slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with
dh here, as
this is pretty much bologna.
I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two
times taking
ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t
really count,
because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone
apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so
didn’t supply
quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a
treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did
use that
term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the
first time, I
also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first
time
round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were
nice and
glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards,
but I knew
even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that.
I’ve not yet
admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t
think, but
as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very
depressed the
second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely negated
the
first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up,
in less than
12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t
quite right,
that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt
that I had
not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire to
do,
that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single
vision, not
had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and
disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want
to go again
sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation
actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t
necessarily be
abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their
wares. I would
feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the
lines of, “we
don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work in
two
times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own
environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or
the
folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even
remotely
wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love
to take it
at
Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way,
our
way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go
see this or
that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected at
meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not
enough/etc.
I
want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my
significant other
think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever
fashion the two
of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want
someone
judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this
heavy so this
much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,”
and that’s
about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at
the same
time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just
this or that
amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand
where it’s
coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this
just
doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me
to do this
stuff.
I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by
laying
out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve
had these
thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
(I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t
help myself,
I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko,
probably even
a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m
freakin all
out ILL! Or something.)
Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing
everyone a good
evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be
all nice
and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or
whatever is
anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
Good to hear of your feelings. Correct me if I’m wrong here –
basically
you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.
Is this right?
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical
about
life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism –
really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 26, 2005 at 4:54:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston,
Sorry if I come on a bit haughty, it’s not my intention. I don’t know it all
by a long shot. It’s just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and
it showed me my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
interract with people but not communicate to them what I know. OK, so that’s
my trip but I’m going to keep laying it on people because that is what I do.
And I’m going to keep learning. I don’t like to see people using opiates,
except for temporary pain control in crisis situations. That’s my trip, man.
I wanna change the fucking world. Personally, if Ekki wants to complain
about the German government trying to fence addicts in, well, to me, it’s
fair enough what they do. Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world’s most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it’s fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it’s totally
fine. I’m not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they’re pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that’s fine. In fact I think it’s great and a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
living that.
That’s where I am. I’m pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I’m pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That’s my position, and I am happy if you want to try and
shift me from it.
To me, when the Bwiti say “Break open the Head” what they mean is – the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing “I do this, not that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this.” The
whole fencing-in of the personal perspective is broken by the drug. For me,
I believe that’s why they take it in Africa. For sure, it happened to me
when I took it in London, and in the Cameroun.
I’m not talking about you personally here, it’s general.
Anyway, that’s my position. I apologize if it seems haughty to you or anyone
else but this is my position. Che sera.
With love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 25 January 2005 23:39
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 22:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal
at all, not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to
assist me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able
to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not
always fun or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying
something along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally
agree with this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come
across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the
option of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a
dose, kill my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want
to be able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a
source, and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there
ain’t no source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that
I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular,
although I admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have
to conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or
don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it
was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those
rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs,
just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
I’d just point out that the human body and mind are just machines
at the end
of the day. Your personality is unique in that everything is unique, but
it’s just a structure. And, research has shown, if you put that
personality
through the processes of therapy it becomes a lot more efficient – a lot
calmer and happier, more capable of getting its needs met directly, a lot
more grounded. In early life, people develop a fascination with proving to
themselves their own uniqueness, and that’s fine, but it usually wears off
with advancing years and a more practical approach develops. What
I’m try to
say is….does it really matter so much what you do with therapy, ibogaine
or whatever? That you have to conform to someone else’s protocol – is it
really such a big deal? I mean, where do you have a way of evaluating
something if you haven’t tried it anyway? Can you really tell if something
won’t work for you if you don’t go fully into it, just to see, without a
pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my
own sense of
uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I really
appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of
doing groups,
ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider
world, it’s a
gift, man, the greatest journey there is.
with love
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 26, 2005 at 4:27:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Iboga is offering spiritual insight and inspiration,
We have multi ego’s or multi archetypes that are being Expressed. One day
you say “I’m not feeling myself today”.
All the ego’s like to be satisfied, the one who likes to be well
Without drugs and the one who can’t feel well in a painful physical body.
the one ego likes to be detached and the other ego likes to be attached,
all in the same body.
You are talking to the same person but to what ego of that person?
( DH wrote few times), your monkey on the shoulder is one ego
And the music in you heart is another which always be there,which are you
listening to…?
Iboga can give you the insight how to observe your own ego’s.
So it’s ibogaine for limited withdrawals but also ibogaine for
Insight and inspiration.
Iboga will reduce big amount of bacteria ( parasites) that are living in
symbiotic relationship with our bodies, which is another story but make
iboga worth trying to reduce the chance of total invasion of your body,
And bring you closer to your original “you” when born, who is different to
the “you”
When invaded, also the bacteria is “asking to be satisfied”, it will tell
Your brain and then you forget all the resolution. Which ego are you talking
to?
Anyways, I think it is more complexes then we can think of or more simple
then we can think of, but not yet realized.
Be well,
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 26 januari 2005 1:05
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Nick wrote in somewhat something fashion >Can you really tell if something
won’t work for you if you don’t go fully into it, just to see, without a
pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my own sense of
uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I really
appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of doing groups,
ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider world, it’s a
gift, man, the greatest journey there is.<
Well Nick,
I gotta say first someone else recently noted you write with a
particular tone that’s somehow, oh, what was the word, condesending?
Haughty? I can’t remember, but think it was something along these lines. I
don’t think you mean it that way, I really don’t (but what the hell, I could
be wrong), so I try to overlook it and put it down to my own idiocyncracies,
but….
I could swear I did mention those -A rooms in my very last post before
this one. As far as I can tell those myriad meetings in rooms full of other
people talking about the same topics I was would probably qualify as
“groups.” I’ve done them many times (and not just in the -A rooms either)
over many years. I’ve also gone the one-on-one counseling route too, more
than twice. I guess it comes down to what helps each of us be most happy and
comfortable- and it ain’t always the same for each of us, funny enough.
Counseling and groups always leave me feeling really gross and icky, so I’m
glad you enjoy them but I can’t freakin’ stand them, not at all. They irk
me, or rather, I always seemed to end up irking myself when I found myself
in one.
I think I’m gonna leave it at this though, as I’m not sure how
comfortable I am with the tone of your note (no offense to you at all in the
least, just stating that I get kinda grrrr when someone implies things about
me based on themselves and their own outlook on things, and starts causually
throwing around such niceties as “you’ve got ego trouble” and “you’re too
focused on being unique,” and other interesting but baseless commentary).
What works for you is great and I’m glad it does- but please do try and
refrain from thinking, or worse, calling me a “closed” person etc, etc.), so
want to think about it a while and decide whether I’ll post more reply or
just shunt it into the “already been there and answered that enough” pile.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 22:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal
at all, not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to
assist me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not
always fun or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying
something along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally
agree with this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the
option of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a
dose, kill my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want
to be able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a
source, and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there
ain’t no source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that
I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular,
although I admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have
to conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or
don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it
was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs,
just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
I’d just point out that the human body and mind are just machines at the
end
of the day. Your personality is unique in that everything is unique, but
it’s just a structure. And, research has shown, if you put that
personality
through the processes of therapy it becomes a lot more efficient – a lot
calmer and happier, more capable of getting its needs met directly, a lot
more grounded. In early life, people develop a fascination with proving to
themselves their own uniqueness, and that’s fine, but it usually wears off
with advancing years and a more practical approach develops. What I’m try
to
say is….does it really matter so much what you do with therapy, ibogaine
or whatever? That you have to conform to someone else’s protocol – is it
really such a big deal? I mean, where do you have a way of evaluating
something if you haven’t tried it anyway? Can you really tell if something
won’t work for you if you don’t go fully into it, just to see, without a
pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my own sense
of
uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I really
appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of doing
groups,
ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider world, it’s
a
gift, man, the greatest journey there is.
with love
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism, ibogaine, and hokey pokey icecream……
Date: January 26, 2005 at 4:12:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think people are missing the main point here……..what about the pain???
And I argue (again) that since there IS no right and no wrong… then nobody
CAN be right!!!
(And by the way, I’m always right, even when I’m wrong, I am right.)
Koiky
—–Original Message—–
From: The Garden [mailto:GardenRestaurant@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 7:03 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism and ibogaine
Hi Preston !!
You wrote :
” While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?”
They said : “it was your own best thinking that got you here,”
When you are there, in the A’s rooms and when you are not in the rooms
(using ) it still your
own best thinking that keep you out-there.
What matter what you do or where you go : it’still your best thinking that
bring you where ever you are ?/!
So , I do you know what is your best thinking ?
The one who bring you in the rooms or the one who keep you out of the rooms
?/!
Maybee you should quit or maybee not ?/! Using or thinking,. you never
don’t know .
You are a lot smarter than most of people and you should figure out .
I know that it take a lot of humility to accept to be told what to do, (even
when people are right.)specialy when you are young, sensible, smart and
confronted closely ( too early ) with the possibility of your own death.
In my humble opinion : addiction keep you away from the regular , normal
times and rythm of passage in life.
We are like lobter, we have to change our hard shell regularly if we want to
grow.When the lobster change her hard shell she feel very vunerable for a
while but not for ever. She don’t rationalize and just do her job on going
on with life ..stronger than before.Each one of us have to go throught
this….. Using or not using , soon or later. … but always.
Death could be a premature exit to avoid the change of season; but it’s not
a good idea to trought away the hard shell with the lobster. I believe in
reeincarnation, so I am fuck any way 🙂
Change sucks……. so do not changing. It’s your call !
Love you, Man
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal at all,
not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to assist
me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not always fun
or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying something
along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally agree with
this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the option
of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a dose, kill
my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want to be
able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a source,
and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there ain’t no
source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular, although I
admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have to
conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen despite
my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism
substance:
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.<
Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly,
feeling
slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with
dh here, as
this is pretty much bologna.
I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two
times taking
ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t really count,
because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone
apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so
didn’t supply
quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a
treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did
use that
term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the
first time, I
also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first
time
round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were
nice and
glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards,
but I knew
even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that. I’ve not yet
admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t
think, but
as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very
depressed the
second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely negated
the
first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up,
in less than
12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t
quite right,
that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt
that I had
not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire to
do,
that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single
vision, not
had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and
disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want
to go again
sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation
actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t necessarily be
abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their
wares. I would
feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the
lines of, “we
don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work in
two
times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own
environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or
the
folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even
remotely
wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love to take it
at
Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way,
our
way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go
see this or
that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected at
meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not enough/etc.
I
want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my
significant other
think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever
fashion the two
of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want
someone
judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this
heavy so this
much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,”
and that’s
about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at
the same
time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just
this or that
amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand where it’s
coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this
just
doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me
to do this
stuff.
I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by
laying
out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve had these
thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
(I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t
help myself,
I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko,
probably even
a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m
freakin all
out ILL! Or something.)
Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing everyone a good
evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be
all nice
and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or whatever is
anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
Good to hear of your feelings. Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically
you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.
Is this right?
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical
about
life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism –
really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
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[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Preston cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 26, 2005 at 1:03:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston !!
You wrote :
” While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?”
They said : “it was your own best thinking that got you here,”
When you are there, in the A’s rooms and when you are not in the rooms
(using ) it still your
own best thinking that keep you out-there.
What matter what you do or where you go : it’still your best thinking that
bring you where ever you are ?/!
So , I do you know what is your best thinking ?
The one who bring you in the rooms or the one who keep you out of the rooms
?/!
Maybee you should quit or maybee not ?/! Using or thinking,. you never
don’t know .
You are a lot smarter than most of people and you should figure out .
I know that it take a lot of humility to accept to be told what to do, (even
when people are right.)specialy when you are young, sensible, smart and
confronted closely ( too early ) with the possibility of your own death.
In my humble opinion : addiction keep you away from the regular , normal
times and rythm of passage in life.
We are like lobter, we have to change our hard shell regularly if we want to
grow.When the lobster change her hard shell she feel very vunerable for a
while but not for ever. She don’t rationalize and just do her job on going
on with life ..stronger than before.Each one of us have to go throught
this….. Using or not using , soon or later. … but always.
Death could be a premature exit to avoid the change of season; but it’s not
a good idea to trought away the hard shell with the lobster. I believe in
reeincarnation, so I am fuck any way 🙂
Change sucks……. so do not changing. It’s your call !
Love you, Man
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal at all,
not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to assist
me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not always fun
or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying something
along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally agree with
this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the option
of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a dose, kill
my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want to be
able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a source,
and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there ain’t no
source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular, although I
admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have to
conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen despite
my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism
substance:
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.<
Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly,
feeling
slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with
dh here, as
this is pretty much bologna.
I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two
times taking
ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t really count,
because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone
apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so
didn’t supply
quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a
treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did
use that
term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the
first time, I
also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first
time
round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were
nice and
glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards,
but I knew
even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that. I’ve not yet
admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t
think, but
as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very
depressed the
second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely negated
the
first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up,
in less than
12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t
quite right,
that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt
that I had
not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire to
do,
that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single
vision, not
had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and
disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want
to go again
sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation
actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t necessarily be
abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their
wares. I would
feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the
lines of, “we
don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work in
two
times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own
environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or
the
folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even
remotely
wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love to take it
at
Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way,
our
way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go
see this or
that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected at
meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not enough/etc.
I
want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my
significant other
think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever
fashion the two
of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want
someone
judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this
heavy so this
much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,”
and that’s
about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at
the same
time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just
this or that
amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand where it’s
coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this
just
doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me
to do this
stuff.
I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by
laying
out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve had these
thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
(I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t
help myself,
I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko,
probably even
a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m
freakin all
out ILL! Or something.)
Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing everyone a good
evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be
all nice
and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or whatever is
anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
Good to hear of your feelings. Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically
you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.
Is this right?
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical
about
life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism –
really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 26, 2005 at 1:00:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Jerry,
Well, I for one am always fascinated with “other worldly/spiritual” experiences, especially when they happen to me!!!!!! But others stories are great as well!
The gift of the blue baby…awesome, kind of like giving you a new start….and you so deserve it, we all do….. there is no right or wrong, just choices that lead to experiences. We can at any stage of it all take a new path, start again, worthy you most certainly are.
Have you ever tried healing? Do you experience any warmth or tingling in your hands, or the urge to put them on someone who needs healing?
Would be interested to hear more, and I really don’t think anyone would be offended by it…. It’s really interesting stuff.
But, of course, that’s just me!!
Great story….
Kirsty Dawn :o)
From: jerry harville [mailto:jharville@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 6:07 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hello
J,
Good question.I have a good friend that was recently ( last year ) disbarred by the
Texas Medical board for treating mostly ADD and pain patients with more CII’s than
was politically correct. This guy was treating me and we became good friends.We
are in the process of writing a book about some of the Spiritual things that happend
to me. I have worked for a very large company where the CEO and all the top folks
heavy into occult power.I went to a chinese shaman that was in Arlington and had
some really wild things happen.This guy was 5th generation acupunture and shaman
priest.Its not the right forum to go into all that happened, but to sum it up I was reborn
in the Eastern tradition as well as the Christian tradition withing weeks of each other.
I saw what some call the ” Blue Pearl” and while on an accupuncture table saw three
beings of blue light. They were giving me a gift.I could see the closest one holding
something in his arms but could not see what it was.I remember thinking how glorious
these beings would want to give me a gift.Soon I saw that the gift was a baby! A blue
light baby just like them! My hands went to my head and I had what some call a life
review.I was found guilty only of damaging my body by years of self abuse.Mostly
drinking.I have not had a drink in comming up on 9 years. I jumped off the table and
told the priest NO! I was not worthy to take the gift due to my shame.He just said,
perhaps that dor will be opened for you.If not it will be the other way.
Bottomline I want to see if with Eboka I can open the door.I have issues with pain that are
very legit.I also feel that the Morphine is dulling me.I at least want to stop for a period long enough to see how bad the pain is without the meds.I may be nuts but they tell me its
either another fusion or the meds.I really like the tone of the folks on this list.I feel that
I can say just about anything and not be judged too harshly. FYI I still don’t know what
the real deal was with the shaman guy and the many other crazy things that happened
with him.I have some ideas though.I know that this is an Ibogaine topic list and am sorry
if I have offended anyone.On the other hand folks like us that push the limits are the
ones that have these kinds of things happen! I would love anyones feedback regarding
similar events that have taken place with them.Either on or off list site.Sorry to ramble so.
Thanks, Jerry
knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hey there Jerry,
Yes, Small World indeed : )
Memories>
Re: quitting, I’m curious, I assume you have tried
quitting before, Were those attempts before or after
your pain issues?
*Preston, I know your busy Bro, but when you find
some time, would you mind refreshing my memory on how
your pain management levels where after dosing
Ibogaine HCL?
If not that’s cool…
Anyways, I’m interested in “Why Quit?”
You have a ‘script for ’em….That is good. From
the sounds of it, you don’t sound naive about the
cultural aspect of ‘drugs’,
If you end up self admining, Good Luck and Drink
LOTS & *LOTS OF GOOD WATER BEFORE DURING AND AFTER.
btw howz your heart? and H0w long is long enough to
take off work? (I’d take off 2 weeks min. but what do
I know)
Cheers,
-J
— jerry harville wrote:
> Small world I would say. When I was hit with an
> ex-parte restraining order with a kick out clause 10
> days after a c-fusion I lived in the Motel 6 on the
> corner of Euless Main and 183.
> I was there for a while, I didn’t know where my next
> days rent was comming from most of
> the time.I got in a little misunderstanding over the
> controlled substance laws with the
> Tarrant county sheriff’s office.I ended up in the “
> Major Drug Court “. Enough of my darker
> past.It all turned out ok. I am still here.If the
> state of Texas had their way they would lock folks
> up for life, or better yet let them ” ride the
> needle” for any drug infraction.How long were you in
> the Metroplex?
>
>
>
>
> knowone knowwhere wrote:
> 🙂 Useless was were my shooting gallery Apartment
> wuz,
>
> -J
> — jerry harville wrote:
> > > Where are you at?
> >
> > A little town between Dallas and Fort Worth called
> > Euless.Its really not so bad.
> > Approx 10 minutes from work.Its right by the DFW
> > airport but no flyover noise…
> > I am in the aviation business so its real handy!
> >
> > One of my concerns re treatment is it sounds like
> a
> > week off work mininum is required.
> >
> > We are owned by a British firm ( the company I
> work
> > for.)
> >
> > knowone knowwhere wrote:
> > >but have lived in Texas
> > > more years than l like to admit.
> >
> > Hey Jerry
> > know whatchya mean dood.
> > where are you at?
> > -J
> >
> >
> >
> > — jerry harville wrote:
> > > how to obtain
> >
> > and
> >
> > self
> >
> > administer the proper
> > > dose
> >
> > of ibogaine hydrocloride to
> > end
> > >
> > > a long term
> >
> > dependence???
> >
> >
> > At this time I am taking a
> > > dail y dose o f 400 mg MS Con tin along with
> > >
> > > benzos an hydro co.
> >
> > —->Where does t h e ph ysical pain
> > >
> > > end and the psychogical pain begin\?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
___________________________________________________________
> >
> > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
> > more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> >
>
\]=———————————————————————=[/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________
>
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
> more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
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>
>
>
>
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– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
From: jerry harville <jharville@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 26, 2005 at 12:07:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
J,
Good question.I have a good friend that was recently ( last year ) disbarred by the
Texas Medical board for treating mostly ADD and pain patients with more CII’s than
was politically correct. This guy was treating me and we became good friends.We
are in the process of writing a book about some of the Spiritual things that happend
to me. I have worked for a very large company where the CEO and all the top folks
heavy into occult power.I went to a chinese shaman that was in Arlington and had
some really wild things happen.This guy was 5th generation acupunture and shaman
priest.Its not the right forum to go into all that happened, but to sum it up I was reborn
in the Eastern tradition as well as the Christian tradition withing weeks of each other.
I saw what some call the ” Blue Pearl” and while on an accupuncture table saw three
beings of blue light. They were giving me a gift.I could see the closest one holding
something in his arms but could not see what it was.I remember thinking how glorious
these beings would want to give me a gift.Soon I saw that the gift was a baby! A blue
light baby just like them! My hands went to my head and I had what some call a life
review.I was found guilty only of damaging my body by years of self abuse.Mostly
drinking.I have not had a drink in comming up on 9 years. I jumped off the table and
told the priest NO! I was not worthy to take the gift due to my shame.He just said,
perhaps that dor will be opened for you.If not it will be the other way.
Bottomline I want to see if with Eboka I can open the door.I have issues with pain that are
very legit.I also feel that the Morphine is dulling me.I at least want to stop for a period long enough to see how bad the pain is without the meds.I may be nuts but they tell me its
either another fusion or the meds.I really like the tone of the folks on this list.I feel that
I can say just about anything and not be judged too harshly. FYI I still don’t know what
the real deal was with the shaman guy and the many other crazy things that happened
with him.I have some ideas though.I know that this is an Ibogaine topic list and am sorry
if I have offended anyone.On the other hand folks like us that push the limits are the
ones that have these kinds of things happen! I would love anyones feedback regarding
similar events that have taken place with them.Either on or off list site.Sorry to ramble so.
Thanks, Jerry
knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hey there Jerry,
Yes, Small World indeed : )
Memories>
Re: quitting, I’m curious, I assume you have tried
quitting before, Were those attempts before or after
your pain issues?
*Preston, I know your busy Bro, but when you find
some time, would you mind refreshing my memory on how
your pain management levels where after dosing
Ibogaine HCL?
If not that’s cool…
Anyways, I’m interested in “Why Quit?”
You have a ‘script for ’em….That is good. From
the sounds of it, you don’t sound naive about the
cultural aspect of ‘drugs’,
If you end up self admining, Good Luck and Drink
LOTS & *LOTS OF GOOD WATER BEFORE DURING AND AFTER.
btw howz your heart? and H0w long is long enough to
take off work? (I’d take off 2 weeks min. but what do
I know)
Cheers,
-J
— jerry harville wrote:
> Small world I would say. When I was hit with an
> ex-parte restraining order with a kick out clause 10
> days after a c-fusion I lived in the Motel 6 on the
> corner of Euless Main and 183.
> I was there for a while, I didn’t know where my next
> days rent was comming from most of
> the time.I got in a little misunderstanding over the
> controlled substance laws with the
> Tarrant county sheriff’s office.I ended up in the ”
> Major Drug Court “. Enough of my darker
> past.It all turned out ok. I am still here.If the
> state of Texas had their way they would lock folks
> up for life, or better yet let them ” ride the
> needle” for any drug infraction.How long were you in
> the Metroplex?
>
>
>
>
> knowone knowwhere wrote:
> 🙂 Useless was were my shooting gallery Apartment
> wuz,
>
> -J
> — jerry harville wrote:
> > > Where are you at?
> >
> > A little town between Dallas and Fort Worth called
> > Euless.Its really not so bad.
> > Approx 10 minutes from work.Its right by the DFW
> > airport but no flyover noise…
> > I am in the aviation business so its real handy!
> >
> > One of my concerns re treatment is it sounds like
> a
> > week off work mininum is required.
> >
> > We are owned by a British firm ( the company I
> work
> > for.)
> >
> > knowone knowwhere wrote:
> > >but have lived in Texas
> > > more years than l like to admit.
> >
> > Hey Jerry
> > know whatchya mean dood.
> > where are you at?
> > -J
> >
> >
> >
> > — jerry harville wrote:
> > > how to obtain
> >
> > and
> >
> > self
> >
> > administer the proper
> > > dose
> >
> > of ibogaine hydrocloride to
> > end
> > >
> > > a long term
> >
> > dependence???
> >
> >
> > At this time I am taking a
> > > dail y dose o f 400 mg MS Con tin along with
> > >
> > > benzos an hydro co.
> >
> > —->Where does t h e ph ysical pain
> > >
> > > end and the psychogical pain begin\?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
___________________________________________________________
> >
> > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
> > more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> > http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> >
>
\]=———————————————————————=[/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________
>
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
> more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
>
\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Date: January 25, 2005 at 9:28:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Hey Ken,
Yes,..there are opium poppies growing in Tasmania.
However I believe they are well fenced and gaurded
to a certain degree. I have never seen them.
Believe me when I say,..they have been talked about
and thought about by many here in Oz over the years.
I am sure you have seen more of your share of poppies
and opium in Asia.
…….Jasen
In the past I certainly did, but the U.S./Thai poppy erradication program
was rather effective in the last decade.
I remember being in a dirt floor, bamboo house with a few ‘hilltribe’ chaps
sitting around the indoor campfire.
I asked this one Hmong fellow what is it like now that the government forces
them to grow cabbages instead of poppy. The Hmong say, ” the women are
happy, there is more food, but for the men ….we have nothing.”
Opium is quite overrated, there is a reason it is refined. Best actual ‘den’
I had ever been in was in Hanoi, just after they opened the country to
outsiders. They had a more refined opium, strained and boiled to evaporate
off the moisture.
……Ken
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Date: January 25, 2005 at 9:10:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Being from New Zealand, or rather Dunedin, Otago….we have VERY limited
choice of drugs…..so every person game enough to grow poppies in the
season is risking every junkie in the region (yes, we travel far and
wide,…) stomping through their chrysanthemums and marigolds to pluck the
afore said plant from the ground in which it grows. And then we see doco’s
and gardening books from around the world with gardens just bursting with
these plants. Oh, a kiwis paradise!!
A few years back I got a job in my home town picking asparagus (or scary
grass as my partners child called it…it literally grows before your
eyes!!) anyway this farmer had a couple of years before tried growing
poppies for commercial purpose..for the seed I think (geez!!) anyway, he’d
given this up but if you know how many seeds a poppy produces then you can
imagine how many years he’s going to have them popping up in his field.
What a joy it was in the season to sneak in the back way to the field and
just relax whilst bleeding the plants. We would also take all the gears with
us so we could cook up there and then!
That would be the closest I got to a big poppy field!!!
Lol
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Jasen Chamoun [mailto:jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 2:01 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Hey Ken,
Yes,..there are opium poppies growing in Tasmania.
However I believe they are well fenced and gaurded
to a certain degree. I have never seen them.
Believe me when I say,..they have been talked about
and thought about by many here in Oz over the years.
I am sure you have seen more of your share of poppies
and opium in Asia.
…….Jasen
Hey Ken,
I also would like to see you stick around.
Watta ya reckon mate?
Jasen.
Hello Jasen,
I believe I will, thanks. At least I am now doing it willingly after
Vector
wisely suggested that I follow the directions at the end of each post.
Is it really true that there are huge ‘licensed’ poppy fields in Tasmania
?
…….Ken
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 25, 2005 at 9:01:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What a brilliant idea…..especially if it works like that. Imagine how many
pain patients could be helped with something like that? Even the terminally
ill… who have so much opiates in their system that NOTHING kills the
pain…..they could be pain free (and maybe meet a maker before they pass
over? Wow!! Cool!)
Gee Preston, you’re not just a pretty face! (Even…. Hehheh)
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 11:07 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal at all, not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to assist me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not always fun or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying something along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally agree with this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the option of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a dose, kill my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want to be able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a source, and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there ain’t no source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular, although I admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have to conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism
substance:
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.<
Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly, feeling
slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with
dh here, as
this is pretty much bologna.
I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two
times taking
ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t really count,
because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone
apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so
didn’t supply
quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a
treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did
use that
term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the
first time, I
also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first time
round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were
nice and
glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards,
but I knew
even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that. I’ve not yet
admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t
think, but
as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very
depressed the
second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely negated the
first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up,
in less than
12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t
quite right,
that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt
that I had
not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire to do,
that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single
vision, not
had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and
disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want
to go again
sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation
actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t necessarily be
abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their
wares. I would
feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the
lines of, “we
don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work in two
times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own
environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or the
folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even
remotely
wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love to take it at
Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way, our
way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go
see this or
that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected at
meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not enough/etc. I
want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my
significant other
think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever
fashion the two
of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want someone
judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this
heavy so this
much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,”
and that’s
about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at
the same
time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just
this or that
amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand where it’s
coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this just
doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me
to do this
stuff.
I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by laying
out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve had these
thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
(I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t
help myself,
I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko,
probably even
a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m
freakin all
out ILL! Or something.)
Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing everyone a good
evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be
all nice
and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or whatever is
anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
Good to hear of your feelings. Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically
you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.
Is this right?
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical >>about
life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – >>really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 25, 2005 at 8:57:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thank you muchly…will look into it (for depression at the mo…)
:o)
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 7:04 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
hi Kirk,
Here is a link to a short, concise description of
5HTP:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/5-htp.htm
5-HTP is the chemical precursor to serotonin. I took
one capsule about 24 hours after my treatment, and
could swear I felt some of the Ibogaine’s effects come
back.
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Date: January 25, 2005 at 8:56:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lol, not at all……but it certainly shuts people up when they chirpily ask
“so how are you??”.
Any cartoonists round here??
kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: jon [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 5:47 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
eheheh… i hope this doesn’t sound like i’m minimising your problems, but
a box of suicidal frothy ducks is a pretty funny mental image.
could make a good cartoon =)
Hey cool, did I manage to fool you into thinking my life is a box of
fluffy
ducks???? Wow!! My life is a box of suicidal frothy ducks actually…..
so
I come on here to get a break from it, and sometimes a giggle or two….
I can give you some misery every now n then if you prefer???
Lol
Luff a l’il bit…
Head nod in your direction…(not feeling huggy wuggy today)
Kirsty Dawn
—–Original Message—–
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com [mailto:Jeffgd1@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 2:17 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Hi Donna et al…
Well it has been a v-e-r-y slow but steady climb out of the 20 plus year
opiate haze…the last ten years being strictly a methadone diet. At 45
years old my brain had a lot of reconnecting to do with itself and my
body.
I was on 50mgs when i did the ibo…looking back (ahh hindsight!) maybe i
should have tried switching to a shorter acting opiate but didnt have a
sympathetic Dr or want to go back to copping on the street
I went thru some very tough weeks post ibo i did a couple of “booster”
doses
about 2-3 weeks out and the nor-ibo (or wheteever it is) was flowing
bigtime
and gave me a great spirit (just as advertised) and then about 7 weeks
post
it simply dried up! I was still only about 75% back to’normal’ and then it
became much more difficult to focus on the positve.
Even now at 10 plus weeks my energy level is still low (as it was before
ibo) and i am to put it simply, still, uncomfortable. Some nights i could
swear i am feeling honest to god (minor) withdrawal pain though i cannot
actually believe that i am at this point
I still try to focus on the fact that i am free now-to go and be wherever
I
want (as soon as the $ are thier) and that compared to 20 years 10 weeks
aint but a drop in the bucket but it is hard.
I only chimed into the “ken” discussion cuz his posts seemed to hit home
for me much more so than the full of positivity posts that i simply cant
relate to right now. I am only glad for those that feel great and see the
light so to speak but for me the road is still long.
Dont get me wrong I am a livemusiclovinglonghairedhippiefreak and all
that-no doubt!but I am out of the old school grateful dead model no
flowrpowerdaisyloving but hardpartyingbustyerballscraziness
-toomuchofeverythingisjustenuff shut-upandpassthetray-pipe-joint type
To be fair I need to get out of the house more and excercise more and eat
better and get into counseling and stop daydreaming so much and get
moving
and eat better and excercise and get back to work and get a hobby and move
out of new york and meditate and join some kind of group and get back to
my
spiritual needs and eat more vegatables and see a chiroprator and do some
volunteer work and get rolfed or something and focus on the just how far
I
have come but otherwise everything is fucking great!
hope that helps
Freak Freely!
Jeff
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Date: January 25, 2005 at 8:00:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Ken,
Yes,..there are opium poppies growing in Tasmania.
However I believe they are well fenced and gaurded
to a certain degree. I have never seen them.
Believe me when I say,..they have been talked about
and thought about by many here in Oz over the years.
I am sure you have seen more of your share of poppies
and opium in Asia.
…….Jasen
Hey Ken,
I also would like to see you stick around.
Watta ya reckon mate?
Jasen.
Hello Jasen,
I believe I will, thanks. At least I am now doing it willingly after Vector
wisely suggested that I follow the directions at the end of each post.
Is it really true that there are huge ‘licensed’ poppy fields in Tasmania ?
…….Ken
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 25, 2005 at 7:05:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick wrote in somewhat something fashion >Can you really tell if something
won’t work for you if you don’t go fully into it, just to see, without a
pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my own sense of
uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I really
appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of doing groups,
ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider world, it’s a
gift, man, the greatest journey there is.<
Well Nick,
I gotta say first someone else recently noted you write with a particular tone that’s somehow, oh, what was the word, condesending? Haughty? I can’t remember, but think it was something along these lines. I don’t think you mean it that way, I really don’t (but what the hell, I could be wrong), so I try to overlook it and put it down to my own idiocyncracies, but….
I could swear I did mention those -A rooms in my very last post before this one. As far as I can tell those myriad meetings in rooms full of other people talking about the same topics I was would probably qualify as “groups.” I’ve done them many times (and not just in the -A rooms either) over many years. I’ve also gone the one-on-one counseling route too, more than twice. I guess it comes down to what helps each of us be most happy and comfortable- and it ain’t always the same for each of us, funny enough. Counseling and groups always leave me feeling really gross and icky, so I’m glad you enjoy them but I can’t freakin’ stand them, not at all. They irk me, or rather, I always seemed to end up irking myself when I found myself in one.
I think I’m gonna leave it at this though, as I’m not sure how comfortable I am with the tone of your note (no offense to you at all in the least, just stating that I get kinda grrrr when someone implies things about me based on themselves and their own outlook on things, and starts causually throwing around such niceties as “you’ve got ego trouble” and “you’re too focused on being unique,” and other interesting but baseless commentary). What works for you is great and I’m glad it does- but please do try and refrain from thinking, or worse, calling me a “closed” person etc, etc.), so want to think about it a while and decide whether I’ll post more reply or just shunt it into the “already been there and answered that enough” pile.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 22:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
>Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal
at all, not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to
assist me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not
always fun or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying
something along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally
agree with this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the
option of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a
dose, kill my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want
to be able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a
source, and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there
ain’t no source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that
I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular,
although I admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have
to conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or
don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it
was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs,
just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
I’d just point out that the human body and mind are just machines at the end
of the day. Your personality is unique in that everything is unique, but
it’s just a structure. And, research has shown, if you put that personality
through the processes of therapy it becomes a lot more efficient – a lot
calmer and happier, more capable of getting its needs met directly, a lot
more grounded. In early life, people develop a fascination with proving to
themselves their own uniqueness, and that’s fine, but it usually wears off
with advancing years and a more practical approach develops. What I’m try to
say is….does it really matter so much what you do with therapy, ibogaine
or whatever? That you have to conform to someone else’s protocol – is it
really such a big deal? I mean, where do you have a way of evaluating
something if you haven’t tried it anyway? Can you really tell if something
won’t work for you if you don’t go fully into it, just to see, without a
pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my own sense of
uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I really
appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of doing groups,
ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider world, it’s a
gift, man, the greatest journey there is.
with love
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 25, 2005 at 6:39:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 22:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal
at all, not
at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such
constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to
assist me
with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to resist
going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not
always fun or
easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying
something along
the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally
agree with this
idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the
physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not to
mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the
option of
what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a
dose, kill my
tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I
need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want
to be able
to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you
gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a
source, and
at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of
possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there
ain’t no source
to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that
I’m mainly
just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular,
although I admit
I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have
to conform
to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or
don’t, use or
don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it
was said to
me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best
thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve
been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
despite my
need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always
legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs,
just to have
the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
I’d just point out that the human body and mind are just machines at the end
of the day. Your personality is unique in that everything is unique, but
it’s just a structure. And, research has shown, if you put that personality
through the processes of therapy it becomes a lot more efficient – a lot
calmer and happier, more capable of getting its needs met directly, a lot
more grounded. In early life, people develop a fascination with proving to
themselves their own uniqueness, and that’s fine, but it usually wears off
with advancing years and a more practical approach develops. What I’m try to
say is….does it really matter so much what you do with therapy, ibogaine
or whatever? That you have to conform to someone else’s protocol – is it
really such a big deal? I mean, where do you have a way of evaluating
something if you haven’t tried it anyway? Can you really tell if something
won’t work for you if you don’t go fully into it, just to see, without a
pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my own sense of
uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I really
appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of doing groups,
ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider world, it’s a
gift, man, the greatest journey there is.
with love
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 25, 2005 at 5:06:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all,
Nick asked,
Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own terms.<
No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn’t really my goal at all, not at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery. Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside such constantly angry nerve endings, I’ll continue to rely on drugs to assist me with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I’ve been able to resist going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It’s not always fun or easy being addicted though, so I’d like the option of trying something along the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally agree with this idea, but personally? I think that if I’m going to be using opiates (the physically safest, least toxic pain killers I’ve ever come across, not to mention most effective) for a while to come, I’d like to have the option of what’s been described to me as “resetting.” Where I can take a dose, kill my tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if I need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want to be able to do just that without being told “you only get so many chances or you gotta find a new source.” (Of course, this is assuming I have a source, and at the moment- listening feds?- there ain’t no source. I’m thinking of possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there ain’t no source to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be listening/reading?)
So with the “no source” thing in mind, remember please that I’m mainly just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular, although I admit I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do things on my own terms. I’m so freakin’ sick of being told I have to conform to this or that label, that I’m this or that because I do or don’t, use or don’t use, vote or don’t vote, hate or don’t, etc. While as it was said to me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, “it was your own best thinking that got you here,” well, I ain’t still in those rooms, and I’ve been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen despite my need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost always legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don’t want off drugs, just to have the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
Any thoughts anyone?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism
substance:
>100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.<
Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly, feeling
slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with
dh here, as
this is pretty much bologna.
I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two
times taking
ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t really count,
because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone
apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so
didn’t supply
quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a
treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did
use that
term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the
first time, I
also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first time
round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were
nice and
glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards,
but I knew
even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that. I’ve not yet
admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t
think, but
as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very
depressed the
second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely negated the
first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up,
in less than
12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t
quite right,
that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt
that I had
not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire to do,
that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single
vision, not
had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and
disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want
to go again
sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation
actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t necessarily be
abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their
wares. I would
feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the
lines of, “we
don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work in two
times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own
environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or the
folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even
remotely
wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love to take it at
Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way, our
way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go
see this or
that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected at
meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not enough/etc. I
want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my
significant other
think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever
fashion the two
of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want someone
judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this
heavy so this
much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,”
and that’s
about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at
the same
time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just
this or that
amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand where it’s
coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this just
doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me
to do this
stuff.
I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by laying
out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve had these
thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
(I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t
help myself,
I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko,
probably even
a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m
freakin all
out ILL! Or something.)
Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing everyone a good
evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be
all nice
and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or whatever is
anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
Good to hear of your feelings. Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own terms.
Is this right?
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
>>>> And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical >>about
>>>> life, then
>>>> it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – >>really!
>
> 100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
>
> no additives or preservatives, either.
>
> Virgin Bullshit.
>
> _.dh
>
>
>
>
>
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] <OT> % Führerschein % driving ban %
Date: January 25, 2005 at 2:19:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Am 25.01.2005 um 14:12 schrieb “” <thethird@myway.com>:
Hey Ekki, Why do you have to take the concentration and IQ tests? Is that kooky German government making all drug addicts register their IQ or is it part of a therapy thing? Or do the reaction time and concentration tests have to do with getting your license to drive back? I just thought it was odd to have to take those, especially the IQ test.
It sounds like you have are dealing with a real pain in the ass.
oh yes, german government has a large database with the iq of every junky registered. the ones with high iq get reputable jobs in the fields of science and economy and the ones with low iq become politicians. this sensible procedure has proved to be highly successful. hairdressers are somewhere in the middle.
to get my licence back they will do some checking of mental and physical abilities. they don´t really check the iq, i was wrong. what is more effort is to make them believe that you will never take drugs again, because its your turn to prove that. therefore i need all this therapy stuff. in court its the other way round: the public prosecutor has to prove that youre guilty.
From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 25, 2005 at 1:19:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey there Jerry,
Yes, Small World indeed : ) <Pause for Soto Grande
Memories>
Re: quitting, I’m curious, I assume you have tried
quitting before, Were those attempts before or after
your pain issues?
*Preston, I know your busy Bro, but when you find
some time, would you mind refreshing my memory on how
your pain management levels where after dosing
Ibogaine HCL?
If not that’s cool…
Anyways, I’m interested in “Why Quit?”
You have a ‘script for ’em….That is good. From
the sounds of it, you don’t sound naive about the
cultural aspect of ‘drugs’,
If you end up self admining, Good Luck and Drink
LOTS & *LOTS OF GOOD WATER BEFORE DURING AND AFTER.
btw howz your heart? and H0w long is long enough to
take off work? (I’d take off 2 weeks min. but what do
I know)
Cheers,
-J
— jerry harville <jharville@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Small world I would say. When I was hit with an
ex-parte restraining order with a kick out clause 10
days after a c-fusion I lived in the Motel 6 on the
corner of Euless Main and 183.
I was there for a while, I didn’t know where my next
days rent was comming from most of
the time.I got in a little misunderstanding over the
controlled substance laws with the
Tarrant county sheriff’s office.I ended up in the ”
Major Drug Court “. Enough of my darker
past.It all turned out ok. I am still here.If the
state of Texas had their way they would lock folks
up for life, or better yet let them ” ride the
needle” for any drug infraction.How long were you in
the Metroplex?
knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
🙂 Useless was were my shooting gallery Apartment
wuz,
-J
— jerry harville wrote:
Where are you at?
A little town between Dallas and Fort Worth called
Euless.Its really not so bad.
Approx 10 minutes from work.Its right by the DFW
airport but no flyover noise…
I am in the aviation business so its real handy!
One of my concerns re treatment is it sounds like
a
week off work mininum is required.
We are owned by a British firm ( the company I
work
for.)
knowone knowwhere wrote:
but have lived in Texas
more years than l like to admit.
Hey Jerry
know whatchya mean dood.
where are you at?
-J
— jerry harville wrote:
how to obtain
and
self
administer the proper
dose
of ibogaine hydrocloride to
end
a long term
dependence???
At this time I am taking a
dail y dose o f 400 mg MS Con tin along with
benzos an hydro co.
—->Where does t h e ph ysical pain
end and the psychogical pain begin\?
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] 5-HTP
Date: January 25, 2005 at 1:03:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi Kirk,
Here is a link to a short, concise description of
5HTP:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/5-htp.htm
5-HTP is the chemical precursor to serotonin. I took
one capsule about 24 hours after my treatment, and
could swear I felt some of the Ibogaine’s effects come
back.
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Date: January 25, 2005 at 11:54:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 25/01/2005 16:47:13 GMT Standard Time, jfreed1@umbc.edu writes:
Even now at 10 plus weeks my energy level is still low (as it was before
> ibo) and i am to put it simply, still, uncomfortable. Some nights i could
> swear i am feeling honest to god (minor) withdrawal pain though i cannot
> actually believe that i am at this point
Could they really be withdrawals 10 weeks on???????? You are doing it and well done to you, Im planning to detox on subutex in a couple of weeks! would love to do the ibo but can not get the cash together
love Donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Date: January 25, 2005 at 11:51:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Ken
Glad you are sticking around, Jasen is a great guy
Love Donna
From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Date: January 25, 2005 at 11:46:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
eheheh… i hope this doesn’t sound like i’m minimising your problems, but
a box of suicidal frothy ducks is a pretty funny mental image.
could make a good cartoon =)
Hey cool, did I manage to fool you into thinking my life is a box of
fluffy
ducks???? Wow!! My life is a box of suicidal frothy ducks actually…..
so
I come on here to get a break from it, and sometimes a giggle or two….
I can give you some misery every now n then if you prefer???
Lol
Luff a l’il bit…
Head nod in your direction…(not feeling huggy wuggy today)
Kirsty Dawn
—–Original Message—–
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com [mailto:Jeffgd1@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 2:17 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Hi Donna et al…
Well it has been a v-e-r-y slow but steady climb out of the 20 plus year
opiate haze…the last ten years being strictly a methadone diet. At 45
years old my brain had a lot of reconnecting to do with itself and my
body.
I was on 50mgs when i did the ibo…looking back (ahh hindsight!) maybe i
should have tried switching to a shorter acting opiate but didnt have a
sympathetic Dr or want to go back to copping on the street
I went thru some very tough weeks post ibo i did a couple of “booster”
doses
about 2-3 weeks out and the nor-ibo (or wheteever it is) was flowing
bigtime
and gave me a great spirit (just as advertised) and then about 7 weeks
post
it simply dried up! I was still only about 75% back to’normal’ and then it
became much more difficult to focus on the positve.
Even now at 10 plus weeks my energy level is still low (as it was before
ibo) and i am to put it simply, still, uncomfortable. Some nights i could
swear i am feeling honest to god (minor) withdrawal pain though i cannot
actually believe that i am at this point
I still try to focus on the fact that i am free now-to go and be wherever
I
want (as soon as the $ are thier) and that compared to 20 years 10 weeks
aint but a drop in the bucket but it is hard.
I only chimed into the “ken” discussion cuz his posts seemed to hit home
for me much more so than the full of positivity posts that i simply cant
relate to right now. I am only glad for those that feel great and see the
light so to speak but for me the road is still long.
Dont get me wrong I am a livemusiclovinglonghairedhippiefreak and all
that-no doubt!but I am out of the old school grateful dead model no
flowrpowerdaisyloving but hardpartyingbustyerballscraziness
-toomuchofeverythingisjustenuff shut-upandpassthetray-pipe-joint type
To be fair I need to get out of the house more and excercise more and eat
better and get into counseling and stop daydreaming so much and get
moving
and eat better and excercise and get back to work and get a hobby and move
out of new york and meditate and join some kind of group and get back to
my
spiritual needs and eat more vegatables and see a chiroprator and do some
volunteer work and get rolfed or something and focus on the just how far
I
have come but otherwise everything is fucking great!
hope that helps
Freak Freely!
Jeff
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Date: January 25, 2005 at 11:45:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Hey Ken,
I also would like to see you stick around.
Watta ya reckon mate?
Jasen.
Hello Jasen,
I believe I will, thanks. At least I am now doing it willingly after Vector
wisely suggested that I follow the directions at the end of each post.
Is it really true that there are huge ‘licensed’ poppy fields in Tasmania ?
…….Ken
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 25, 2005 at 10:56:41 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 January 2005 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism
substance:
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.<
Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly, feeling
slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with
dh here, as
this is pretty much bologna.
I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two
times taking
ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t really count,
because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone
apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so
didn’t supply
quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a
treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did
use that
term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the
first time, I
also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first time
round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were
nice and
glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards,
but I knew
even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that. I’ve not yet
admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t
think, but
as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very
depressed the
second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely negated the
first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up,
in less than
12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t
quite right,
that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt
that I had
not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire to do,
that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single
vision, not
had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and
disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want
to go again
sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation
actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t necessarily be
abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their
wares. I would
feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the
lines of, “we
don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work in two
times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own
environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or the
folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even
remotely
wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love to take it at
Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way, our
way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go
see this or
that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected at
meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not enough/etc. I
want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my
significant other
think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever
fashion the two
of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want someone
judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this
heavy so this
much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,”
and that’s
about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at
the same
time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just
this or that
amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand where it’s
coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this just
doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me
to do this
stuff.
I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by laying
out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve had these
thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
(I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t
help myself,
I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko,
probably even
a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m
freakin all
out ILL! Or something.)
Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing everyone a good
evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be
all nice
and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or whatever is
anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
Peace and love,
Preston
Hey Preston,
Good to hear of your feelings. Correct me if I’m wrong here – basically you
want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own terms.
Is this right?
Nick
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical >>about
life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – >>really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ken/was/Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 25, 2005 at 9:54:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/25/05 12:43:18 AM, chayco@island.net writes:
<< My concern with methamphetamine abusers was the elevated heart rate and
entrenched psychotic behaviour.
It seems to me that ibogaine as an effective interrupter of opiate addiction
is a given, in most situations, but the effectiveness of ibogaine to
‘interrupt’ chronic methamphetamine abuse appears to not be as dramatic as
with opiates.
If there is a risk of ibogaine raising amphetamine levels in the brain, and
the ‘self administered’ is acting in an extremely psychotic and harmful
manner, what steps can the ‘care giver’ take immediately ? >>
Ibogaine is not as dramatic in interrupting methamphetamine dependence as it
is heroin dependence because there is no similar withdrawal signs seen with
methamphetamine as with opioids and thus the very dramatic elimination of opioid
withdrawal signs by ibogaine is absent with methamphetamine.
I anticipate that raised heart levels would be seen with active
methamphetamine use. If this is not the case then a cardiac disorder may exist. Cardiac
disorders are reason for the elimination of many patients from ibogaine
therapy. Additionally, drug dependence, adverse drug effects and psychotic symptoms
are all distinct and may have to be dealt with in a distinct manner. If the
subject to be treated is exhibiting psychotic symptoms that may or may not be
associated with amphetamine use and/or cannot be depended on to cease
methamphetamine use long enough to be treated with ibogaine than I would only feel
comfortable treating the patient in a controlled environment. A hospital would
be great but, I guess that is non existent. Has an EKG and blood chemistry
including liver profile been obtained? Is the patent HCV or HIV positive? Any
other medical disorders? Does the subject want to be treated with ibogaine?
How much amphetamine and by what route is it administered? There are
variables here that could result in a fatal reaction.
Howard
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From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] <OT> % Führerschein % driving ban %
Date: January 25, 2005 at 8:12:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Ekki, Why do you have to take the concentration and IQ tests? Is that kooky German government making all drug addicts register their IQ or is it part of a therapy thing? Or do the reaction time and concentration tests have to do with getting your license to drive back? I just thought it was odd to have to take those, especially the IQ test.
It sounds like you have are dealing with a real pain in the ass.
— On Mon 01/24, ekki < ekkijdfg@gmx.de > wrote:
From: ekki [mailto: ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:00:58 +0100
Subject: [Ibogaine] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_%_F=FChrerschein_%_driving_ban_%?=
i had to give away my drivers licence last week due to being busted
with c&h in december. at the townhall they strongly recommended to go
to a counseler by a federal medical-psychological institute dealing
with drivers licences(in germany TÜV-MPI). he should tell me what i
have to do to get my licence back.
so today i rode the train to stuttgart, paid 85 euro and the
īpsychologistī told me he is
and more such bullshit for 30 minutes. big fun. he believes i will be
soon on drugs again and i take the whole thing too lightheartedly ;( i
didnīt tell anything on ibogaine though.
go to a drug counseler, do a psychotherapy and join a
self-help/12-steps group “for my own good”! then i need all this
documented after a year. the worst thing is a screening for 12-15
month, i.e. they can call me any time and i have to come and piss in a
bottle within 48 hours. whenever i leave town for more than a day i
have to inform them. if they only find thc once i have to start all
over again.
if iīm lucky i can do a test in maybe 15 months, tell them that iīm
really sorry for ever doing drugs, explain the grave and severe
personal problems that got me on the wrong track, make clear why iīm
stable now and why i will never ever touch any drug again.
also there will be tests on reaction time, concentration and iq, all
designed for and by utter morons.
(the screening and the test are quite expensive, a therapy can be paid
by insurance)
anyone in germany who underwent this procedure may contact me off-list.
never had an accident, never mixed drinking and driving.
i have to do the shopping and get the medication for my parents because
they are both old and ill. but that doesnt count because to withdraw
the licence is not to punish, itīs to protect the other road users from
fucked up junkies.
not driving is great for enviroment! what bothers me is that you are
flushed down into a stupid system. they want to break your spine, make
you regret what you dont want to regret and find some psychic “issues”
to work on.
everbody is happy when youre a junky. you get to know all kinds of new
people: doctors, nurses, lawyers, judges, public prosecutors, social
workers, pushers, pharmacists, policemen, therapists. you help them
make a living, but they dont help you. you are raising the gross
national product. well big news every junky knows that. iīm just
annoyed. they must do ibo. then they will believe me iīm off drugs and
we will hug and hand each other flowers and drivers licence smile and
lift each other up into the light we will refuse to go to heaven
without ken and love is the way.
cheers ekki
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No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 25, 2005 at 2:28:17 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have got a sense of humour dammit!!! Or at least that’s what I call
it….thousands probly differ..,…..
Where’s my opiates?
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 25 January 2005 7:11 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Great and even occasionally OZ like, Ima soddy sire Ken sir, but I canna
‘ep
you in your unsubscribe endevour.
But I think Vector may have steered youse in the correct and proper
connect…correcti..direction I mean.
Any particular reason why you’re spliting so soonly? Just curious and
not judging or anything remotely like it, just curious..oh, wait a minute,
I
just said that.
Peace and love,
Preston
]
Hi Preston,
Well, actually it was ….because…..well, I really am quite
sensitive…..sniffle, sniffle and my feelings were hurt.
But, I figure ….wat da ‘ell…..at least Preston has a bleedin’ sense of
humour !
Ya know……I think it all comes down to that gawddamned pot smoking
business. I bet you it’s those gawddamned pot smokers who have lost their
sense of humour. Now, junkies….well, what a fine group of irreverant and
……oh, oh, I think I am going to piss some people off . I’ll just back up
a bit.
regards…Ken
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—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] stick around mate.
Date: January 25, 2005 at 2:00:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Ken,
I also would like to see you stick around.
Watta ya reckon mate?
Jasen.
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out- dear Jeff
Date: January 25, 2005 at 1:59:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
solarium is good against end-of-winter-depressions. but then you look like a roasted redneck.
That’s interesting what you say about Seratonin levels, cos for years at the
end of winter I’d usually be a depressive mess. Managed to pull myself out
of it, cept for last winter.. it all went on a bit long plus other dramas as
well, so I’m on anti-depressants now (just mild ones..) and feeling heapum
better for it. I still don’t want to go anywhere much, or do much but I’ll
get there. Besides, if the govt wants to pay me for staying at home I’ll
take it at the moment!
Cheers for the info on serotonin, anymore would be good…. like 5 HTP?
Wassat?
:o)
Kirk
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 25, 2005 at 1:11:06 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Great and even occasionally OZ like, Ima soddy sire Ken sir, but I canna
‘ep
you in your unsubscribe endevour.
But I think Vector may have steered youse in the correct and proper
connect…correcti..direction I mean.
Any particular reason why you’re spliting so soonly? Just curious and
not judging or anything remotely like it, just curious..oh, wait a minute,
I
just said that.
Peace and love,
Preston
]
Hi Preston,
Well, actually it was ….because…..well, I really am quite
sensitive…..sniffle, sniffle and my feelings were hurt.
But, I figure ….wat da ‘ell…..at least Preston has a bleedin’ sense of
humour !
Ya know……I think it all comes down to that gawddamned pot smoking
business. I bet you it’s those gawddamned pot smokers who have lost their
sense of humour. Now, junkies….well, what a fine group of irreverant and
……oh, oh, I think I am going to piss some people off . I’ll just back up
a bit.
regards…Ken
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 25, 2005 at 12:48:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Great and even occasionally OZ like, Ima soddy sire Ken sir, but I canna ‘ep you in your unsubscribe endevour.
But I think Vector may have steered youse in the correct and proper connect…correcti..direction I mean.
Any particular reason why you’re spliting so soonly? Just curious and not judging or anything remotely like it, just curious..oh, wait a minute, I just said that.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
As I keep repeating my ‘unsubscribe ibogaine’ message to listserv, to no
avail as yet and try to ignore the new messages in my inbox…..I finally
gave in..
ARRRrrrrgggggg !
The following is the second such post received :
**********************************************
** THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY **
** YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE **
**********************************************
The original message was received at Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:13:57 -0800
from dyn24.qb.island.net [199.60.231.34]
—– Transcript of session follows —–
<listproc@ns2.calyx.net>… Deferred: Connection refused by ns2.calyx.net.
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
Will keep trying until message is 5 days old
I’m bleedin’ wired to this list…………I have beat old mom morpheous, I
have suffered through iboga…I have been beat up by Nick Sandberg, and
barely survived……but, will I ever throw this ibogaine LIST monkey of my
back !!!!!
I suspect Preston is behind this……twiddling the levers like the great OZ
he may well be.
Free me Preston…….Freeeeee meeeee.
……Ken
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ken/was/Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 25, 2005 at 12:42:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Ah come on Ken,
Hang out.
Thanks Howard.
This site does does allow access to firsthand information not readily
available. I will remain awhile longer.
I just needed to learn which personalities are best left unruffled.
Dose regimens in treating methamphetamine dependence can be quite
varied. Everything from the normal 15mg/kg doses to prolonged regimens of
50mg to 150mg/day for a week or two or doses that are determined by the
patient
on an as needed basis as a substitute for amphetamine. What has been seen
in
some cases is that after a week or so the subject will lose interest in
amphetamine. Some issues of concern related to concurrent use and
toxicity of
ibogaine and amphetamines and/or the issue of the subject remaining well
hydrated
are serious. Lack of hydration may prove fatal. What is shown in both
animal
model research and human observations is that ibogaine will raise brain
levels
of amphetamine. The inverse may also be true. It is quite a crap shoot
and
requires either knowledgeable drug users or knowledgeable doctors. Both
in
combination would be best. Too bad we don’t have an approved drug that
could be
given to hundreds of methamphetamine users so we could begin to accumulate
data.
Howard
My concern with methamphetamine abusers was the elevated heart rate and
entrenched psychotic behaviour.
It seems to me that ibogaine as an effective interrupter of opiate addiction
is a given, in most situations, but the effectiveness of ibogaine to
‘interrupt’ chronic methamphetamine abuse appears to not be as dramatic as
with opiates.
If there is a risk of ibogaine raising amphetamine levels in the brain, and
the ‘self administered’ is acting in an extremely psychotic and harmful
manner, what steps can the ‘care giver’ take immediately ?
…Ken
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 25, 2005 at 12:21:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Being skeptical or cautious of things are varying degrees of deciding that things are safe or not. Being cautious, using past experiences, aquired facts and using intuition to make a right decision for oneself is everyday stuff. I feel being skeptical all the time without obtaining enough facts on a case by case basis, or not using ones intuition because one is coming from a wounded place and can’t (won’t) examine those things, can wind up becoming cynical. This is not unlike the same formula that is responsible for bigotry and rascism. Being condescending is yet another defense mechanism. However, it is the abusive edge here that I agree , is inappropriate and gets old. There is, I feel, a hugh difference between being sharp and crass while using wit and sarcasm versus being cynicial and condescending . But then this is just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Vector,
Well, personally I found him a bit abusive and a bit of a drag so I wrote
him a few things and now it seems he’s run off. I’ve no problem with Ken
being on the list, and even if I did have it’s got nothing to do with me who
stays and who goes. The way I see it, Ken’s just doing his trip.
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical about life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – really!
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 January 2005 14:46
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
I thought Ken was going to have problems fitting in with his first msg
to the list. I didn’t need to worry 😉
I don’t know what all everyone else gets reading Ken’s messages but I
don’t read anything from him that’s like what you’ve described here.
He’s funny and cynical, that describes most of the people on this list
who have been junkies for years, whether they got clean or not.
.:vector:.
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Hey Walter,
>
> Ken’s a drag, man. He pushes people away who are just trying to
> communicate with him, because he’s scared of sharing himself, and
> won’t
> own that. And when someone confronts him a little he hides himself
> away
> in self pity. Well, poor baby! I’m sorry, but I’ve seen it a hundred
>
> times in the group room and it’s just a drag to me. He’s not going
> anywhere with this attitude and until he himself changes it nothing
> is
> going to change in his life.
>
> So he’s taken ibogaine a few times, well big deal. Anyone can take
> ibogaine, the question is whether you can follow through in life with
>
> what it shows you.
>
> Ken, why don’t you share a little more about your life, from the
> heart.
> I for one would like to know and I’m sure others would too.
>
> with love
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
> Sent: 23 January 2005 22:05
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
>
>
> quite a self-indulgent little spasm
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Kirsty Sutherland
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:30 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
>
>
> Lol, piss off you freaky troll!!! And calling me young aint gonna
> help
> ya!
>
> Andif Im your child, where the hell ya been all these years you
> useless old bugger????
>
> Gee, being abusive is fun isnt it???
>
> :oP
>
>
>
>
> From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
> Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 5:06 p.m.
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
>
>
>
> Come now ,Lass,
>
>
>
> Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we
> should all share with the world ?
>
> Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is
>
> certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the
>
> light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
>
>
>
> Bless you
> my
> child……Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
>
> From: Kirsty Sutherland
>
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
>
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
>
>
>
> Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll
> like
> creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for
> having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the
> feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might
> find
> one that helps!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
> Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m.
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
>
>
>
> Hello Nick,
>
>
>
> Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a
> troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are
> ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
>
> That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
>
>
>
> There is a hidden side of me that
> just warms up to this stuff 😉
>
>
>
>
>
> ……Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
>
> From: Nick Sandberg
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey Ken,
>
>
>
> I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are
> from
> the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or
> someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine
>
> experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that
>
> you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
>
>
>
> Would love to hear more.
>
>
>
> with love
>
>
>
> Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
>
>
>
> Hello Nick,
>
>
>
> Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey Ken,
>
>
>
> Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what
>
> it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set
> me
> straight if needed –
>
>
>
> No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an
> advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
>
>
>
> OK, this bit I get.
>
>
>
> I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in
> first
> hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I
> have little
> experience.
>
>
>
> OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to
>
> take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of
>
> before?
>
>
>
>
>
> This interest is not for myself personally,
>
>
>
> Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself?
> Is
> that right?
>
>
>
> but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say,
> chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
>
>
>
> You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members
> about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
>
>
>
> Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m
> simply missing something obvious here.
>
>
>
> Hope you’re doing good.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
>
>
>
> regards……Ken
>
>
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ken/was/Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 9:23:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/24/05 8:54:55 PM, chayco@island.net writes:
<< I suspect Preston is behind this……twiddling the levers like the great
OZ
he may well be.
Free me Preston…….Freeeeee meeeee.
Ah come on Ken,
Hang out. Dose regimens in treating methamphetamine dependence can be quite
varied. Everything from the normal 15mg/kg doses to prolonged regimens of
50mg to 150mg/day for a week or two or doses that are determined by the patient
on an as needed basis as a substitute for amphetamine. What has been seen in
some cases is that after a week or so the subject will lose interest in
amphetamine. Some issues of concern related to concurrent use and toxicity of
ibogaine and amphetamines and/or the issue of the subject remaining well hydrated
are serious. Lack of hydration may prove fatal. What is shown in both animal
model research and human observations is that ibogaine will raise brain levels
of amphetamine. The inverse may also be true. It is quite a crap shoot and
requires either knowledgeable drug users or knowledgeable doctors. Both in
combination would be best. Too bad we don’t have an approved drug that could be
given to hundreds of methamphetamine users so we could begin to accumulate data.
Howard
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 9 weeks in.
Date: January 24, 2005 at 9:22:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey guys,
Yes slow and steady,..I undersdtand what you mean Jeff.
The ship is still on course though the sails are not as full of wind.
It has been a 20 year plus opiate haze for me also. I am
39 now,..was on the Methadone since 15.
This is my ninth week,..my energy still is not right,..however
much better than before.
I was on 60mg when treatment started,..however 3 to 4 days
before doing the trearment I double and triple dosed.
I was scared shitless only to discover there was nothing
to fear.
The road for me is also long. I am still conected to the
all of it. I am very confused and not, if you understand
what I mean. My mind is still not firing properly.
I sometimes let out a big roar in frustration of the sickness.
My neighbours must think I am off my head.
I suppose I was,.. without thinking I was,.. the years previously.
Hey,..it’s all good,..as long as I stay on track.
I own the track. The ship is pushing through ice,..the
freesailing will come soon.
I am still in love with everything,..I still see the man across
the road and see me,..the woman at the bustop and there I am again.
I was a lot like this before Iboga,..Iboga took me over the top
and it was/is wonderfull. Though I have come down some.
What a great and ful filling experience,..WOW
People are more attractred to me now,..woman are noticing me,..
it feels great flirting. I have missed so much,..no regrets.
Even though I am still not quite right,..I am
still loving it,..this state I am now in.(No anesthetic)
Even 6 weeks ago when I was sicker,.I still felt great,..Free,
lighter.
I am more sociable,..I used to get invited to 10 things and
maybe go to 1,..now I get invited to 10 and go to at least 9.
I am free from opiates,..even the cig’s however the cig’s are
,…seem to be a different type of challenge. I fight the urge,,
maybe “urge” is not the right word,..I fight the habit of having
a cigg more than anythig else.
Broken the urge and habit of eating loads of sugar in all forms.
I am not as arrogant as before,..nor could I have seen my
arrogance before Iboga.
When people are talking to me now I don’t drift off.
I am more steadfast,..grounded. People are more exciting.
I am feeling alot better than I was a month ago that’s for sure.
Still have longer to go,..but then we are talking about Methadone.
I feel like I can become anything now,..good or bad,..it is a choice.
Some of what society labels “bad” can be good. Good and bad is relevent.
Hey,..maybe I’ll be both,..the all of it. Mmmm.
love,.Jasen. (A big kiss for you Ken baby) (your big enough to handle it) 🙂
(All in good humor mate)
—– Original Message —– From: <Jeffgd1@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:17 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Hi Donna et al…
Well it has been a v-e-r-y slow but steady climb out of the 20 plus year
opiate haze…the last ten years being strictly a methadone diet. At 45
years old my brain had a lot of reconnecting to do with itself and my
body.
I was on 50mgs when i did the ibo…looking back (ahh hindsight!) maybe i
should have tried switching to a shorter acting opiate but didnt have a
sympathetic Dr or want to go back to copping on the street
I went thru some very tough weeks post ibo i did a couple of “booster”
doses about 2-3 weeks out and the nor-ibo (or wheteever it is) was flowing
bigtime and gave me a great spirit (just as advertised) and then about 7
weeks post it simply dried up! I was still only about 75% back to’normal’
and then it became much more difficult to focus on the positve.
Even now at 10 plus weeks my energy level is still low (as it was before
ibo) and i am to put it simply, still, uncomfortable. Some nights i could
swear i am feeling honest to god (minor) withdrawal pain though i cannot
actually believe that i am at this point
I still try to focus on the fact that i am free now-to go and be wherever
I want (as soon as the $ are thier) and that compared to 20 years 10 weeks
aint but a drop in the bucket but it is hard.
I only chimed into the “ken” discussion cuz his posts seemed to hit home
for me much more so than the full of positivity posts that i simply cant
relate to right now. I am only glad for those that feel great and see the
light so to speak but for me the road is still long.
Dont get me wrong I am a livemusiclovinglonghairedhippiefreak and all
that-no doubt!but I am out of the old school grateful dead model no
flowrpowerdaisyloving but
hardpartyingbustyerballscraziness -toomuchofeverythingisjustenuff
shut-upandpassthetray-pipe-joint type
To be fair I need to get out of the house more and excercise more and eat
better and get into counseling and stop daydreaming so much and get
moving and eat better and excercise and get back to work and get a hobby
and move out of new york and meditate and join some kind of group and get
back to my spiritual needs and eat more vegatables and see a chiroprator
and do some volunteer work and get rolfed or something and focus on the
just how far I have come but otherwise everything is fucking great!
hope that helps
Freak Freely!
Jeff
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 8:57:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I don’t thiink that has worked in 5 years 😉 The problem could be that
you’re not reading the instructions that are on every message you post
‘How do I get off the list?’ messages to 😉
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
You send email to ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
Good luck! 🙂 I thought you were fun and fit in perfectly, you’re
trying to escape yourself 🙂 Maybe Nick too, who might be having a bad
week 😉 😉
.:vector:.
— “….Ken” <chayco@island.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
As I keep repeating my ‘unsubscribe ibogaine’ message to listserv,
to
no
avail as yet and try to ignore the new messages in my inbox…..I
finally
gave in..
ARRRrrrrgggggg !
The following is the second such post received :
**********************************************
** THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY **
** YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE **
**********************************************
The original message was received at Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:13:57 -0800
from dyn24.qb.island.net [199.60.231.34]
—– Transcript of session follows —–
<listproc@ns2.calyx.net>… Deferred: Connection refused by
ns2.calyx.net.
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
Will keep trying until message is 5 days old
I’m bleedin’ wired to this list…………I have beat old mom
morpheous, I
have suffered through iboga…I have been beat up by Nick Sandberg,
and
barely survived……but, will I ever throw this ibogaine LIST monkey
of my
back !!!!!
I suspect Preston is behind this……twiddling the levers like the
great OZ
he may well be.
Free me Preston…….Freeeeee meeeee.
……Ken
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 7:46:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
As I keep repeating my ‘unsubscribe ibogaine’ message to listserv, to no
avail as yet and try to ignore the new messages in my inbox…..I finally
gave in..
ARRRrrrrgggggg !
The following is the second such post received :
**********************************************
** THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY **
** YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE **
**********************************************
The original message was received at Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:13:57 -0800
from dyn24.qb.island.net [199.60.231.34]
—– Transcript of session follows —–
<listproc@ns2.calyx.net>… Deferred: Connection refused by ns2.calyx.net.
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
Will keep trying until message is 5 days old
I’m bleedin’ wired to this list…………I have beat old mom morpheous, I
have suffered through iboga…I have been beat up by Nick Sandberg, and
barely survived……but, will I ever throw this ibogaine LIST monkey of my
back !!!!!
I suspect Preston is behind this……twiddling the levers like the great OZ
he may well be.
Free me Preston…….Freeeeee meeeee.
……Ken
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ken……
Date: January 24, 2005 at 7:54:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Man, I bet my new age ass that you used to (or still do..) get into heaps of
fights!!!! It’s ok to say it how you see it….but when it’s just dumping
on someone for doing something you don’t like it just seems like a total
waste of energy. What did someones grammar used to say? If you can’t say
anything nice….. blah blah…..damn, whose granny was that???
Anyway…..my abuse is 99.9% of the time purely in fun and jest (which does
get me into trouble specially with a lot of Americans.. the ones that have
no sense of humour and are offended by everything lol… no, no NOT you
lot….)
Back to computer games….much better than dealing with people lol
Kirsty Dawn :o)
:oP~~~~~~~~~~~@
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out- dear Jeff
Date: January 24, 2005 at 7:44:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That’s interesting what you say about Seratonin levels, cos for years at the
end of winter I’d usually be a depressive mess. Managed to pull myself out
of it, cept for last winter.. it all went on a bit long plus other dramas as
well, so I’m on anti-depressants now (just mild ones..) and feeling heapum
better for it. I still don’t want to go anywhere much, or do much but I’ll
get there. Besides, if the govt wants to pay me for staying at home I’ll
take it at the moment!
Cheers for the info on serotonin, anymore would be good…. like 5 HTP?
Wassat?
:o)
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 25 January 2005 4:22 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out- dear Jeff
Dear Jeff,
Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in
your experiences. I was only on opiates for 4 years
(with one year on the ‘done) and my sleeping patterns
are still fucked up. I could have sworn that the
whole ‘glow’ thing was gone within 2-4 weeks, due to
my metabolic rate- you’re probably a fast metabolizer
like me
I have heard that the longer you’re ‘opiated’, so to
speak, the longer it will take to return to normal.
For methadone recovery, the time-frame is usually
listed in MONTHS, not weeks. My doctor said methadone
is definitely the hardest opiate to bounce back from,
as it commandeers your whole system. He said the
normalization period is usually 3-6 months, but
sometimes up to 12.
I believe that many people(including myself) whose
drug-of-choice is heroin or another opiate, had low
levels of serotonin before we picked up our habits.
My provider recommended 5-HTP, yoga or Tai Chi, and
well-balanced meals to stimulate production of
serotonin/endorphins. Theses methods seem to be
helping. But nothing can heal your body like the
passage of time.
I would almost recommend that you try a low-dose
session soon. Do you have access to Ibo? Would you
want to try another dosing?
Smiles, Julie
__________________________________
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Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Date: January 24, 2005 at 7:40:12 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey cool, did I manage to fool you into thinking my life is a box of fluffy
ducks???? Wow!! My life is a box of suicidal frothy ducks actually….. so
I come on here to get a break from it, and sometimes a giggle or two….
I can give you some misery every now n then if you prefer???
Lol
Luff a l’il bit…
Head nod in your direction…(not feeling huggy wuggy today)
Kirsty Dawn
—–Original Message—–
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com [mailto:Jeffgd1@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 2:17 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Hi Donna et al…
Well it has been a v-e-r-y slow but steady climb out of the 20 plus year
opiate haze…the last ten years being strictly a methadone diet. At 45
years old my brain had a lot of reconnecting to do with itself and my body.
I was on 50mgs when i did the ibo…looking back (ahh hindsight!) maybe i
should have tried switching to a shorter acting opiate but didnt have a
sympathetic Dr or want to go back to copping on the street
I went thru some very tough weeks post ibo i did a couple of “booster” doses
about 2-3 weeks out and the nor-ibo (or wheteever it is) was flowing bigtime
and gave me a great spirit (just as advertised) and then about 7 weeks post
it simply dried up! I was still only about 75% back to’normal’ and then it
became much more difficult to focus on the positve.
Even now at 10 plus weeks my energy level is still low (as it was before
ibo) and i am to put it simply, still, uncomfortable. Some nights i could
swear i am feeling honest to god (minor) withdrawal pain though i cannot
actually believe that i am at this point
I still try to focus on the fact that i am free now-to go and be wherever I
want (as soon as the $ are thier) and that compared to 20 years 10 weeks
aint but a drop in the bucket but it is hard.
I only chimed into the “ken” discussion cuz his posts seemed to hit home
for me much more so than the full of positivity posts that i simply cant
relate to right now. I am only glad for those that feel great and see the
light so to speak but for me the road is still long.
Dont get me wrong I am a livemusiclovinglonghairedhippiefreak and all
that-no doubt!but I am out of the old school grateful dead model no
flowrpowerdaisyloving but hardpartyingbustyerballscraziness
-toomuchofeverythingisjustenuff shut-upandpassthetray-pipe-joint type
To be fair I need to get out of the house more and excercise more and eat
better and get into counseling and stop daydreaming so much and get moving
and eat better and excercise and get back to work and get a hobby and move
out of new york and meditate and join some kind of group and get back to my
spiritual needs and eat more vegatables and see a chiroprator and do some
volunteer work and get rolfed or something and focus on the just how far I
have come but otherwise everything is fucking great!
hope that helps
Freak Freely!
Jeff
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
Date: January 24, 2005 at 7:10:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
dh wrote, in reply to the notion that ibogaine is an anti-cynicism substance:
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.<
Yeah, to pipe up here, while I might not put it quite as harshly, feeling slightly more huggy this evening than snarly, I gotta agree with dh here, as this is pretty much bologna.
I was still and am still quite the freakin cynic, despite two times taking ibogaine (although someone told me the second time didn’t really count, because even though I was trying to get another treatment, someone apparently thought I didn’t really know what I needed and so didn’t supply quite the amount I thought I was getting so it was considered not a treatment per se but rather a psychospiritual effort. While I did use that term when expressing my desire to go again so soon after the first time, I also noted my desire to further explore issues I’d touched on first time round, but I digress- let me get back to the cynism). Things were nice and glowy when I first did ibogaine, I mean immediately afterwards, but I knew even then that wouldn’t last and felt weirded out by that. I’ve not yet admitted this publicly I don’t think, not to anyone but V I don’t think, but as soon as I came out of the nausea and dizziness, I was very depressed the second time ’round, and truly felt that I had just completely negated the first experience, right there. As soon as I was able to sit up, in less than 12 hours, (which was another signal to me that something wasn’t quite right, that I hadn’t taken the amount I’d expected to be taking), I felt that I had not gotten in nearly as far as I’d needed and expressed the desire to do, that I hadn’t this time been to the holodeck, not seen a single vision, not had much of any experience the second time round but feeling ill and disappointed and in a very black mood when finished (and I want to go again sometime- what am I thinking? LOL).
I feel personally that a provider, depending upon the situation actually, but a provider on the black market, shouldn’t necessarily be abritrary about how they supply those who want to buy their wares. I would feel almost resentful if a provider tells me things along the lines of, “we don’t want to treat people more than twice, and if it doesn’t work in two times we’re going to recommend they go elsewhere, out of their own environment, to do it again, with someone else like Sara perhaps, or the folk in Mexico.” Now, I’m not at all saying there’s anything even remotely wrong with taking ibogaine in Mexico or with Sara- I’d love to take it at Sara’s someday actually. But I don’t want to be told “it’s this way, our way, or no way at all.” I don’t want to be told that I must go see this or that psych-type person for counseling, I don’t want to be expected at meetings, I don’t want to be told it’s too soon/toolate/not enough/etc. I want to be able to obtain the stuff and do it as I and my significant other think most beneficial, for whatever reason and in whatever fashion the two of us think most fit. T hat’s the best way I think. I don’t want someone judging from outside me how much I’d need beyond, “he’s this heavy so this much is needed for him to really, really do the three day thing,” and that’s about it. I don’t want someone obtaining this stuff for me and at the same time saying things along the lines of, “I think he needs just this or that amount for this or that reason.” Somehow, while I understand where it’s coming from and that that is a good place and very well meant, this just doesn’t strike me as the very best or more beneficial way for me to do this stuff.
I sincerely hope I’ve not screwed my chances for the future by laying out my feelings in this fashion on the public list, but I’ve had these thoughts for a while and Dave sorta shook them loose with his post.
(I’m blaming you dh, you and my disease- you know I can’t help myself, I’m not responsible, I’m sick, a really reaeealy sicky sicko, probably even a somewhat pinko sicko, in need of treatment ’cause damn it I’m freakin all out ILL! Or something.)
Seriously, sorry to vent on you all. Here’s wishing everyone a good evening, except for those who might not want me to do that, to be all nice and stuff, and would rather I be hostile or pessimistic or whatever is anti-huggy and peaceful and such.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical >>about life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – >>really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] <OT> % Führerschein % driving ban %
Date: January 24, 2005 at 5:38:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ekki, I say tell ’em about the Ibogaine, I mean what the fuck it isn’t going
to make it any worse is it? Put them on the Mindvox list, we’ll straighten
their ass out. Hey, if we can’t staighten ’em out we will twist their head around
with inane bullshit ’till they submit. Randy
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 5:18:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: D H [mailto:dave@phantom.com]
Sent: 24 January 2005 20:31
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical >>about
life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – >>really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
Cynicism is a learned reaction to feelings. When the mind is too scared to
allow the free flow of feelings (sometimes justifiably) one of myriad
defences it has available is Cynicism. You become Cynical about things [hey,
I’ve heard all this before and it’ll never work for me]. When the feelings
can flow the need for cynicism dissipates and you move more into the moment.
Ibogaine will most definitely bring on cynicism if this is someone’s way of
keeping things down, if this is their mental orientation to dealing with
rising feeling. The drug tries to push feelings up and the mind sometimes
tries to push them back down. In this situation, if you move more toward
expression and emotional release the cynicism will move. That is, of course,
if the logic of this statement overwhelms the belief that it’ll never work
for me.
Nick
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 4:57:35 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 24 January 2005 19:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
As I keep repeating my ‘unsubscribe ibogaine’ message to listserv, to no
avail as yet and try to ignore the new messages in my inbox…..I finally
gave in..
I opened this singular post from the following, who I personally
refer to as
the ‘sanctimonius pup’.
I will take the time to clarify myself regarding my cynicism of the
saccharine sentiments I see posted here…..being a product of
the ’60’s we
thought that ‘we’ invented alturism, free expression of feelings
etc…….with reflection, it is evident that we were simply yet another
generation egocentric enough to believe that we were ‘special’. Countless
times I have seen new age twaddle coming from people who often use these
plattitudes to disarm others and obtain an advantage over them, be it
monetarily, psychologically…..or simply to encourage their best friend’s
wife into removing her knickers.
I am not saying Nick manufactures his saccharine sentiments for his own
profits……hmmm, do you turn a few coins with ibogaine Nick ?
Rise above me, dear Nick…..rise above
oooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
😉
…..Ken
Ken, nice to hear from you. I make no money from ibogaine! I don’t even have
any banners on my site. There’s no money in this stuff, least not unless you
want to battle it out with lawyers, patents, and all that madness. Other
people are into those things. For me, it just intrigued me that a chemical
so revelationary was so close yet so far from the public. I thought “Wow,
this is really a situation here! This is something I want to be involved
in.”
And, besides all this, YOU ARE SPECIAL! And you can just take that
in…………………You don’t have to put people in a box because they
say something nice to you and “He’s just doing this to get this” and “She’s
only this way because of so” – that’s the mind fencing-in experience, all
this classification stuff, protecting itself. I’m sorry about your wife.
Guys are always trying to fuck my girlfriend. It’s my fault, I’m attracted
to unbelievably cute women, and of course other guys want to fuck her.
Somewhere I set myself up for it, but I can’t be bothered looking.
with love
Nick
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 4:38:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Jeff,
Cynicism isn’t an emotion, it’s just a way of dealing with feelings. I get
cynical when I think the world is too much for me, too much for me to
change. There are feelings, yes, and they get judged negative and positive,
and some are easier to share, and others it’s like you feel no one will
accept you if you show you have them. Yes, and this goes on, ibogaine will
not change this. Probably make it worse!
Any use to you?
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com [mailto:Jeffgd1@aol.com]
Sent: 24 January 2005 19:57
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical
about life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – >>really!
Nick>>
Nick I am a bit cynical a bit frustrated a bit pissed off a bit
grateful a bit tired a bit happy a bit sad do you think one ibo
session is a cure all for negative emotions for the rest of ones life?
just curious?
Jeff
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From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 3:31:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical >>about life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – >>really!
100%, Pure, unadulterated… Bullshit.
no additives or preservatives, either.
Virgin Bullshit.
_.dh
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 2:56:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical >>about life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – >>really!
Nick>>
Nick I am a bit cynical a bit frustrated a bit pissed off a bit grateful a bit tired a bit happy a bit sad do you think one ibo session is a cure all for negative emotions for the rest of ones life?
just curious?
Jeff
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 2:53:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
As I keep repeating my ‘unsubscribe ibogaine’ message to listserv, to no
avail as yet and try to ignore the new messages in my inbox…..I finally
gave in..
I opened this singular post from the following, who I personally refer to as
the ‘sanctimonius pup’.
I will take the time to clarify myself regarding my cynicism of the
saccharine sentiments I see posted here…..being a product of the ’60’s we
thought that ‘we’ invented alturism, free expression of feelings
etc…….with reflection, it is evident that we were simply yet another
generation egocentric enough to believe that we were ‘special’. Countless
times I have seen new age twaddle coming from people who often use these
plattitudes to disarm others and obtain an advantage over them, be it
monetarily, psychologically…..or simply to encourage their best friend’s
wife into removing her knickers.
I am not saying Nick manufactures his saccharine sentiments for his own
profits……hmmm, do you turn a few coins with ibogaine Nick ?
Rise above me, dear Nick…..rise above oooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
😉
…..Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Vector,
Well, personally I found him a bit abusive and a bit of a drag so I wrote
him a few things and now it seems he’s run off. I’ve no problem with Ken
being on the list, and even if I did have it’s got nothing to do with me
who
stays and who goes. The way I see it, Ken’s just doing his trip.
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical about life,
then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – really!
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 January 2005 14:46
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
I thought Ken was going to have problems fitting in with his first msg
to the list. I didn’t need to worry 😉
I don’t know what all everyone else gets reading Ken’s messages but I
don’t read anything from him that’s like what you’ve described here.
He’s funny and cynical, that describes most of the people on this list
who have been junkies for years, whether they got clean or not.
.:vector:.
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Hey Walter,
Ken’s a drag, man. He pushes people away who are just trying to
communicate with him, because he’s scared of sharing himself, and
won’t
own that. And when someone confronts him a little he hides himself
away
in self pity. Well, poor baby! I’m sorry, but I’ve seen it a hundred
times in the group room and it’s just a drag to me. He’s not going
anywhere with this attitude and until he himself changes it nothing
is
going to change in his life.
So he’s taken ibogaine a few times, well big deal. Anyone can take
ibogaine, the question is whether you can follow through in life with
what it shows you.
Ken, why don’t you share a little more about your life, from the
heart.
I for one would like to know and I’m sure others would too.
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 23 January 2005 22:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
quite a self-indulgent little spasm
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Lol, piss off you freaky troll!!! And calling me young aint gonna
help
ya!
Andif Im your child, where the hell ya been all these years you
useless old bugger????
Gee, being abusive is fun isnt it???
:oP
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 5:06 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we
should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is
certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the
light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you
my
child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll
like
creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for
having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the
feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might
find
one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a
troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are
‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that
just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are
from
the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or
someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine
experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that
you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what
it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set
me
straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an
advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in
first
hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I
have little
experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to
take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of
before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself?
Is
that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say,
chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members
about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m
simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out- dear Jeff
Date: January 24, 2005 at 2:53:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My provider recommended 5-HTP, yoga or Tai Chi, and
well-balanced meals to stimulate production of
serotonin/endorphins. Theses methods seem to be
helping. But nothing can heal your body like the
passage of time>>.
I would almost recommend that you try a low-dose
session soon. Do you have access to Ibo? Would you
want to try another dosing?
hey Julie
yes the methadone is tough-est!
I was thinking the same thing about another dosing BUT i almost feel like it would be a step back-in other words will i feel better after? or will it be another few weeks just to recover from the session and get back to where I am now.?? Anyone have any insight on this??
I do believe that time is a healer (doin just for you) and continue to look ahead but some nights if i could get “relief” i think i would
It is key fro me to get back to work most days i feel like i can. I am a electrician on a large construction project and i went out on workers comp and then found that i had the opportunity to do the Ibo so the timing was great But once back i will not be able to take time off for another Ibo session …though there is the good chance that i will be laid off and then out for another 8 weeks or so ( work picture is slow in nyc right now) so maybe just maybe i will…
Thanks
Jeff
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 2:16:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Vector,
Well, personally I found him a bit abusive and a bit of a drag so I wrote
him a few things and now it seems he’s run off. I’ve no problem with Ken
being on the list, and even if I did have it’s got nothing to do with me who
stays and who goes. The way I see it, Ken’s just doing his trip.
And, frankly, if you take ibogaine and you’re still cynical about life, then
it’s not working for you. Ibogaine is 100% anti-cynicism – really!
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 24 January 2005 14:46
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
I thought Ken was going to have problems fitting in with his first msg
to the list. I didn’t need to worry 😉
I don’t know what all everyone else gets reading Ken’s messages but I
don’t read anything from him that’s like what you’ve described here.
He’s funny and cynical, that describes most of the people on this list
who have been junkies for years, whether they got clean or not.
.:vector:.
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Hey Walter,
Ken’s a drag, man. He pushes people away who are just trying to
communicate with him, because he’s scared of sharing himself, and
won’t
own that. And when someone confronts him a little he hides himself
away
in self pity. Well, poor baby! I’m sorry, but I’ve seen it a hundred
times in the group room and it’s just a drag to me. He’s not going
anywhere with this attitude and until he himself changes it nothing
is
going to change in his life.
So he’s taken ibogaine a few times, well big deal. Anyone can take
ibogaine, the question is whether you can follow through in life with
what it shows you.
Ken, why don’t you share a little more about your life, from the
heart.
I for one would like to know and I’m sure others would too.
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 23 January 2005 22:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
quite a self-indulgent little spasm
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Lol, piss off you freaky troll!!! And calling me young aint gonna
help
ya!
Andif Im your child, where the hell ya been all these years you
useless old bugger????
Gee, being abusive is fun isnt it???
:oP
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 5:06 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we
should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is
certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the
light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you
my
child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll
like
creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for
having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the
feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might
find
one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a
troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are
‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that
just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are
from
the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or
someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine
experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that
you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what
it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set
me
straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an
advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in
first
hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I
have little
experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to
take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of
before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself?
Is
that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say,
chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members
about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m
simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
/]=—————————————————————
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] <OT> % Führerschein % driving ban %
Date: January 24, 2005 at 2:00:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
i had to give away my drivers licence last week due to being busted with c&h in december. at the townhall they strongly recommended to go to a counseler by a federal medical-psychological institute dealing with drivers licences(in germany TÜV-MPI). he should tell me what i have to do to get my licence back.
so today i rode the train to stuttgart, paid 85 euro and the ´psychologist´ told me he is
<personally shocked!>
and more such bullshit for 30 minutes. big fun. he believes i will be soon on drugs again and i take the whole thing too lightheartedly ;( i didn´t tell anything on ibogaine though.
go to a drug counseler, do a psychotherapy and join a self-help/12-steps group “for my own good”! then i need all this documented after a year. the worst thing is a screening for 12-15 month, i.e. they can call me any time and i have to come and piss in a bottle within 48 hours. whenever i leave town for more than a day i have to inform them. if they only find thc once i have to start all over again.
if i´m lucky i can do a test in maybe 15 months, tell them that i´m really sorry <sob> for ever doing drugs, explain the grave and severe personal problems that got me on the wrong track, make clear why i´m stable now and why i will never ever touch any drug again.
also there will be tests on reaction time, concentration and iq, all designed for and by utter morons.
(the screening and the test are quite expensive, a therapy can be paid by insurance)
anyone in germany who underwent this procedure may contact me off-list.
never had an accident, never mixed drinking and driving.
i have to do the shopping and get the medication for my parents because they are both old and ill. but that doesnt count because to withdraw the licence is not to punish, it´s to protect the other road users from fucked up junkies.
not driving is great for enviroment! what bothers me is that you are flushed down into a stupid system. they want to break your spine, make you regret what you dont want to regret and find some psychic “issues” to work on.
everbody is happy when youre a junky. you get to know all kinds of new people: doctors, nurses, lawyers, judges, public prosecutors, social workers, pushers, pharmacists, policemen, therapists. you help them make a living, but they dont help you. you are raising the gross national product. well big news every junky knows that. i´m just annoyed. they must do ibo. then they will believe me i´m off drugs and we will hug and hand each other flowers and drivers licence smile and lift each other up into the light we will refuse to go to heaven without ken and love is the way.
cheers ekki
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 1:13:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi All
Would’nt it be boring if we were all the same and agreed with each other all the time??????
You have all given me priceless advice that I really take notice of what advice you all give because 1.you have experienced the ibogaine and most of you have 2.broken an addiction, perhaps we dont all express ourselves in the same way
With love Donna
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 11:33:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
He’s funny and cynical, that describes most of the people >>on this list
who have been junkies for years, whether they got clean or >>not.
yeah what he said
jeff
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Date: January 24, 2005 at 11:13:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jeff, dude your honesty is heart warming. Keep doing what works for you. I
had some rough spots that I really didn’t talk about because it just reinforced
the negative in me and I knew I wouldn’t stop bitchin’. That’s just me. I know
now how my head works alot better than before Ibogaine. I look at Ibogaine
the same way that I look at God. God helped me quit drinking when I couldn’t do
it by myself but, he wouldn’t fix my car or cut my grass. Ibogaine helped me
stop the cycle of addiction but won’t KEEP ME CLEAN, I have to do that myself.
It’s a bitch, ( cue the Stones play it’s a Bitch), but it gets easier all the
time. Just sitting here doing this is completely different for me. It keeps my
head where it needs to be. I have a gig with a new band this weekend and
normally I would be figuring out how to get enough people together to make a run
to Buffaloe and get a bunch of bundles. I don’t feel that irrational
nervousness I used to feel. I’m not compelled to fuck this up like I would before.
Hell, heroin just fucks up my voice anyway. I look forward to the adrenalin rush
that I would ignore if I was high. I just haven’t figured out how I will leave
my mark on the crowd yet. Anybody have a fire hose, or maybe some flash bang
grenades? Randy
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out- dear Jeff
Date: January 24, 2005 at 10:22:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Jeff,
Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in
your experiences. I was only on opiates for 4 years
(with one year on the ‘done) and my sleeping patterns
are still fucked up. I could have sworn that the
whole ‘glow’ thing was gone within 2-4 weeks, due to
my metabolic rate- you’re probably a fast metabolizer
like me
I have heard that the longer you’re ‘opiated’, so to
speak, the longer it will take to return to normal.
For methadone recovery, the time-frame is usually
listed in MONTHS, not weeks. My doctor said methadone
is definitely the hardest opiate to bounce back from,
as it commandeers your whole system. He said the
normalization period is usually 3-6 months, but
sometimes up to 12.
I believe that many people(including myself) whose
drug-of-choice is heroin or another opiate, had low
levels of serotonin before we picked up our habits.
My provider recommended 5-HTP, yoga or Tai Chi, and
well-balanced meals to stimulate production of
serotonin/endorphins. Theses methods seem to be
helping. But nothing can heal your body like the
passage of time.
I would almost recommend that you try a low-dose
session soon. Do you have access to Ibo? Would you
want to try another dosing?
Smiles, Julie
__________________________________
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Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 9:45:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I thought Ken was going to have problems fitting in with his first msg
to the list. I didn’t need to worry 😉
I don’t know what all everyone else gets reading Ken’s messages but I
don’t read anything from him that’s like what you’ve described here.
He’s funny and cynical, that describes most of the people on this list
who have been junkies for years, whether they got clean or not.
.:vector:.
— Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Hey Walter,
Ken’s a drag, man. He pushes people away who are just trying to
communicate with him, because he’s scared of sharing himself, and
won’t
own that. And when someone confronts him a little he hides himself
away
in self pity. Well, poor baby! I’m sorry, but I’ve seen it a hundred
times in the group room and it’s just a drag to me. He’s not going
anywhere with this attitude and until he himself changes it nothing
is
going to change in his life.
So he’s taken ibogaine a few times, well big deal. Anyone can take
ibogaine, the question is whether you can follow through in life with
what it shows you.
Ken, why don’t you share a little more about your life, from the
heart.
I for one would like to know and I’m sure others would too.
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 23 January 2005 22:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
quite a self-indulgent little spasm
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Lol, piss off you freaky troll!!! And calling me young aint gonna
help
ya!
And
if Im your child, where the hell ya been all these years you
useless old bugger????
Gee, being abusive is fun isnt it???
:oP
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 5:06 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we
should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is
certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the
light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you
my
child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll
like
creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for
having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the
feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might
find
one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a
troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are
‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that
just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are
from
the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or
someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine
experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that
you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what
it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set
me
straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an
advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in
first
hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I
have little
experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to
take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of
before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself?
Is
that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say,
chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members
about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m
simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
__________________________________
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 24, 2005 at 5:27:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Walter,
Ken’s a drag, man. He pushes people away who are just trying to communicate with him, because he’s scared of sharing himself, and won’t own that. And when someone confronts him a little he hides himself away in self pity. Well, poor baby! I’m sorry, but I’ve seen it a hundred times in the group room and it’s just a drag to me. He’s not going anywhere with this attitude and until he himself changes it nothing is going to change in his life.
So he’s taken ibogaine a few times, well big deal. Anyone can take ibogaine, the question is whether you can follow through in life with what it shows you.
Ken, why don’t you share a little more about your life, from the heart. I for one would like to know and I’m sure others would too.
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 23 January 2005 22:05
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
quite a self-indulgent little spasm
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Lol, piss off you freaky troll!!! And calling me young aint gonna help ya!
And……if I’m your child, where the hell ya been all these years you useless old bugger????
Gee, being abusive is fun isn’t it???
:oP
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 5:06 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you my child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll like creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might find one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net] Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Date: January 24, 2005 at 4:40:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 24/01/2005 01:17:59 GMT Standard Time, Jeffgd1@aol.com writes:
hi jeff
you wrote:
only chimed into the “ken” discussion cuz his posts seemed to hit home for me much more so than the full of positivity posts that i simply cant relate to right now. I am only glad for those that feel great and see the light so to speak but for me the road is still long.
I think everythink i have heard & researched what you are feeling is normal like you said having a drug problem for years and then stopping, you are bound to feel like this. Do you mind me asking did you treat yourself??????
Thanks for the advice love donna
From: jerry harville <jharville@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 23, 2005 at 11:48:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Small world I would say. When I was hit with an ex-parte restraining order with a kick out clause 10 days after a c-fusion I lived in the Motel 6 on the corner of Euless Main and 183.
I was there for a while, I didn’t know where my next days rent was comming from most of
the time.I got in a little misunderstanding over the controlled substance laws with the
Tarrant county sheriff’s office.I ended up in the ” Major Drug Court “. Enough of my darker
past.It all turned out ok. I am still here.If the state of Texas had their way they would lock folks
up for life, or better yet let them ” ride the needle” for any drug infraction.How long were you in the Metroplex?
knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
🙂 Useless was were my shooting gallery Apartment wuz,
-J
— jerry harville wrote:
> > Where are you at?
>
> A little town between Dallas and Fort Worth called
> Euless.Its really not so bad.
> Approx 10 minutes from work.Its right by the DFW
> airport but no flyover noise…
> I am in the aviation business so its real handy!
>
> One of my concerns re treatment is it sounds like a
> week off work mininum is required.
>
> We are owned by a British firm ( the company I work
> for.)
>
> knowone knowwhere wrote:
> >but have lived in Texas
> > more years than l like to admit.
>
> Hey Jerry
> know whatchya mean dood.
> where are you at?
> -J
>
>
>
> — jerry harville wrote:
> > how to obtain
>
> and
>
> self
>
> administer the proper
> > dose
>
> of ibogaine hydrocloride to
> end
> >
> > a long term
>
> dependence???
>
>
> At this time I am taking a
> > dail y dose o f 400 mg MS Con tin along with
> >
> > benzos an hydro co.
>
> —->Where does t h e ph ysical pain
> >
> > end and the psychogical pain begin\?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________
>
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
> more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibongaine conference in february
Date: January 23, 2005 at 8:26:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My bad again lol
I ment:
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=479ddb2e5fc7a6039cff45f0727a32b1
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=4f8b3a0f6d7494b226173cf6ac7ef5e0
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=48c81fa1d28f2bd0410f198519ff5a85
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=22a2b975f0b84b027e68c84ec1cd4514
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=fd4360de67285d2b4d03d7ac5b1b7bed
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=e89ba77400a956f98138adbf01da6bd0
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=8ef18cf0ef4f69550233fa6e8d73bce9
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=b3c1dc50002a62251d11bd68e2cd17f5
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=a3b68369a57f2649363840d080bcbea8
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=9e0c7e5d4568088a9e5dd4b2e94babf0
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=39ba33348e80fce33e48edcaa40ec97c
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=0d9247a6109c54730af4dfe6ebac9e5f
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=aa614518784ba5ca837e263f84bcb36c
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=c43025a9f62b0b6e30b54204ca5017be
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=e34f51ada6be275ca5838beb4c209b8e
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=2693c99efdfb5357c72d71d931b22dab
— knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
wrote:
On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:03 PM, jon wrote:
Hi there,
i’d like to know if there are some recordings
planned for the panels
on
the ibogaine conference in february in new
york.
It would be really
cool
to get some mp3′ downloads from it…. Its a
long
way over the ocean..
if there aren’t plans to record it already, i
could prolly rig up
something.
patrick, dana, howard…. whatcha guys think?
Yeah…
I’ll talk to you in the next coupla daze.
Lettuce do this.
Hum … <thinking ’bout video>
Okay, fuck it … let’s Do sumthiN MagicaL.
Patrick
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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 10 weeks out
Date: January 23, 2005 at 8:17:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Donna et al…
Well it has been a v-e-r-y slow but steady climb out of the 20 plus year opiate haze…the last ten years being strictly a methadone diet. At 45 years old my brain had a lot of reconnecting to do with itself and my body.
I was on 50mgs when i did the ibo…looking back (ahh hindsight!) maybe i should have tried switching to a shorter acting opiate but didnt have a sympathetic Dr or want to go back to copping on the street
I went thru some very tough weeks post ibo i did a couple of “booster” doses about 2-3 weeks out and the nor-ibo (or wheteever it is) was flowing bigtime and gave me a great spirit (just as advertised) and then about 7 weeks post it simply dried up! I was still only about 75% back to’normal’ and then it became much more difficult to focus on the positve.
Even now at 10 plus weeks my energy level is still low (as it was before ibo) and i am to put it simply, still, uncomfortable. Some nights i could swear i am feeling honest to god (minor) withdrawal pain though i cannot actually believe that i am at this point
I still try to focus on the fact that i am free now-to go and be wherever I want (as soon as the $ are thier) and that compared to 20 years 10 weeks aint but a drop in the bucket but it is hard.
I only chimed into the “ken” discussion cuz his posts seemed to hit home for me much more so than the full of positivity posts that i simply cant relate to right now. I am only glad for those that feel great and see the light so to speak but for me the road is still long.
Dont get me wrong I am a livemusiclovinglonghairedhippiefreak and all that-no doubt!but I am out of the old school grateful dead model no flowrpowerdaisyloving but hardpartyingbustyerballscraziness -toomuchofeverythingisjustenuff shut-upandpassthetray-pipe-joint type
To be fair I need to get out of the house more and excercise more and eat better and get into counseling and stop daydreaming so much and get moving and eat better and excercise and get back to work and get a hobby and move out of new york and meditate and join some kind of group and get back to my spiritual needs and eat more vegatables and see a chiroprator and do some volunteer work and get rolfed or something and focus on the just how far I have come but otherwise everything is fucking great!
hope that helps
Freak Freely!
Jeff
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 23, 2005 at 7:47:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
oops…hmmm…if you need to, go ahead and download
those,
but If your cool, let Julie have ’em.
Sorry bout dat.
___________________________________________________________
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 23, 2005 at 7:42:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=85a55b107203132c6e24b7cb7de6b0db
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=5dc373213791d88b1166da8c7b0bdee8
Those Pics were cooL Julie, I’d love to see some more
when you find time. Hope youz is doin’ good. : )
Cheers,
-J
— Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear list,
I have been working on an article about my
experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired
by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am
by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
love Julie
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Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search.
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibongaine conference in february
Date: January 23, 2005 at 7:39:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:03 PM, jon wrote:
Hi there,
i’d like to know if there are some recordings
planned for the panels
on
the ibogaine conference in february in new york.
It would be really
cool
to get some mp3′ downloads from it…. Its a long
way over the ocean..
if there aren’t plans to record it already, i
could prolly rig up
something.
patrick, dana, howard…. whatcha guys think?
Yeah…
I’ll talk to you in the next coupla daze.
Lettuce do this.
Hum … <thinking ’bout video>
Okay, fuck it … let’s Do sumthiN MagicaL.
Patrick
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=0a8ed008d4f9fd67bade95b107c92075
http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=e63fae0aa30834d64cf8a60cbadfb5fb
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http://www.dropload.com/redeem.php?t=dc945a0f7091b37d0e73c6d5fc8cdfb0
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 7:22:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Jeff
Did you do ibogaine 10 weeks ago and feeling what? whats it feel like 10 weeks after??????????
love donna
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 5:39:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
There there Walt, it’s ok, we’re juss Playin’
:o)
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 11:05 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
quite a self-indulgent little spasm
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Lol, piss off you freaky troll!!! And calling me young aint gonna help ya!
And……if I’m your child, where the hell ya been all these years you useless old bugger????
Gee, being abusive is fun isn’t it???
:oP
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 5:06 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you my child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll like creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might find one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net] Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT….Please go see this movie for me!!
Date: January 23, 2005 at 5:31:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://www.indigothemovie.com/showing.html
could someone go see this movie and let me know if it’s any good???
It’s not a major release, it’s kinda host your own viewing of it lol.
Being played in a lot of healing centres and churches.
Could be interesting.
Cheers
Kirk
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 5:14:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick, I think what he meant was that he is interested in hearing from other people who have had first hand experience with other drugs…….
Help any?
kirk
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 3:01 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 23 January 2005 02:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Nick,
Perhaps a silly dialogue but what the hey. It was clear to me when I read Ken’s post that he was
primarily interested in learning more about the efficacy of ibogaine when used for drugs other than
opiates and wanted to hear personal experiences or other pertinent info. Didnt seem mysterious.
Not that he doesnt have unconscious reasons or motives as does any participant but the gist of
his message was clear to me. It just seemed to me that by sort of deconstructing his message
line by line you managed to stir in confusion where there really was none. Appeared to me you
were bored and having some fun.
No, I wouldn’t do that. Just trying to get a bit of clarity. Ken was talking about wanting first-hand experiences with drugs, which I assume means taking them, don’t know how you could get a first-hand experience otherwise. Then it’s like he doesn’t want to do it himself. You understand this? I don’t! Here’s the sentence below:
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience. This interest is not for myself personally, but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
Anyway, things are more clear now.
Love
Nick
Walt
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Walt,
I’m just trying to get a little clarity. Do you understand what Ken is asking? I genuinely don’t make sense of it.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 22 January 2005 01:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Nick,
Unless you have suffered serious mental deterioration since my last association with
the list a few years ago I KNOW you are not as obtuse as you present yourself here.
Walt D.
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
—–Original Message—– From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net] Sent: 21 January 2005 17:44 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
From: “walt denton” <wally1@willitsonline.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 5:05:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
quite a self-indulgent little spasm
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Lol, piss off you freaky troll!!! And calling me young aint gonna help ya!
And……if I’m your child, where the hell ya been all these years you useless old bugger????
Gee, being abusive is fun isn’t it???
:oP
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 5:06 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you my child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll like creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might find one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net] Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] New Scientist short article on Ibogaine-link
Date: January 23, 2005 at 4:55:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dunno if you’ve already seen this but thought you might be interested in it. I think they’re too vague about certain facts…
Anyway, look and see!
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18524834.200
Love to everybody, particularly you,
Hannah
From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 23, 2005 at 4:37:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
🙂 Useless was were my shooting gallery Apartment wuz,
-J
— jerry harville <jharville@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Where are you at?
A little town between Dallas and Fort Worth called
Euless.Its really not so bad.
Approx 10 minutes from work.Its right by the DFW
airport but no flyover noise…
I am in the aviation business so its real handy!
One of my concerns re treatment is it sounds like a
week off work mininum is required.
We are owned by a British firm ( the company I work
for.)
knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
but have lived in Texas
more years than l like to admit.
Hey Jerry
know whatchya mean dood.
where are you at?
-J
— jerry harville wrote:
how to obtain
and
self
administer the proper
dose
of ibogaine hydrocloride to
end
a long term
dependence???
At this time I am taking a
dail y dose o f 400 mg MS Con tin along with
benzos an hydro co.
—->Where does t h e ph ysical pain
end and the psychogical pain begin\?
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even
more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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___________________________________________________________
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From: jerry harville <jharville@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 3:29:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I love it! “I refuse to go to heaven without you!” Great form!
Jerry
“….Ken” <chayco@island.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Yes, but you have to be lifted up too, Ken. For it is our way. Just because you appear to be some demented old shag-sack wanking all sorts of nonsense all over the place won’t stop me. I refuse to go to heaven without you! Even if we have to go back to psychology lesson 1 – those who don’t want to examine their own conflicts are condemned to forever try and create conflict around them – it matters not. You WILL be nice. And you WILL hug. And you WILL enjoy it. Yes, it WILL happen. For it is the Way. California uber alles.
with love
Nick
I trust the above was tongue in cheek humour……but hearing from some of you love/hugs and damnation folks,
I think I will just take a pass. Anyone who wants to discuss ibogaine with me personally please feel welcome to email me directly.
So long…….Ken
From: jerry harville <jharville@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 23, 2005 at 3:18:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Where are you at?
A little town between Dallas and Fort Worth called Euless.Its really not so bad.
Approx 10 minutes from work.Its right by the DFW airport but no flyover noise…
I am in the aviation business so its real handy!
One of my concerns re treatment is it sounds like a week off work mininum is required.
We are owned by a British firm ( the company I work for.)
knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>but have lived in Texas
> more years than l like to admit.
Hey Jerry
know whatchya mean dood.
where are you at?
-J
— jerry harville wrote:
> how to obtain
and
self
administer the proper
> dose
of ibogaine hydrocloride to
end
>
> a long term
dependence???
At this time I am taking a
> dail y dose o f 400 mg MS Con tin along with
>
> benzos an hydro co.
—->Where does t h e ph ysical pain
>
> end and the psychogical pain begin\?
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 2:36:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ken
I for one enjoy and relate to your POV…stick around
Jeff
Feeling like I did ibogaine 10 weeks ago….every fucking bit of it.
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 2:24:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My understanding is that ibogaine has been less successful at
interrupting the desire to use for stimulant addicts (probably
based mainly on results with crack). So if one might hope for 75%
year-later success rate for opioids (with all the ibogaine doses
needed, plus aftercare), it may be more like 25% for stimulants.
However this is just an impression from discussions on this and the
other ibogaine list over the past number of years.
Sara, can you comment?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 04:29:04 -0800 BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Eric writes, I think Ken wants to know what impact Ibogaine has on
stimulants. I’ve been wondering the same thing myself. I’m of the
opinoin that Ibogaine
can help with any problem, I’m just not sure of the addiction
interruption
aspects involved with crank and other non opioid drugs.
Randy
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 1:30:50 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Yes, but you have to be lifted up too, Ken. For it is our way. Just because you appear to be some demented old shag-sack wanking all sorts of nonsense all over the place won’t stop me. I refuse to go to heaven without you! Even if we have to go back to psychology lesson 1 – those who don’t want to examine their own conflicts are condemned to forever try and create conflict around them – it matters not. You WILL be nice. And you WILL hug. And you WILL enjoy it. Yes, it WILL happen. For it is the Way. California uber alles.
with love
Nick
I trust the above was tongue in cheek humour……but hearing from some of you love/hugs and damnation folks,
I think I will just take a pass. Anyone who wants to discuss ibogaine with me personally please feel welcome to email me directly.
So long…….Ken
From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 1:21:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Eric writes, I think Ken wants to know what impact Ibogaine has on
stimulants. I’ve been wondering the same thing myself. I’m of the opinoin
that Ibogaine
can help with any problem, I’m just not sure of the addiction interruption
aspects involved with crank and other non opioid drugs. Randy
i’m in the midst of trying to compile info from treatment providers who’ve
treated people for meth problems to present at the conference next month.
the laboratory research that’s been done (on rats and such) looks pretty
promising.. from the anectodal reports i’ve heard/read so far, it seems
there’s been some success in real treatment situtations, but i need to
collect more info before i can really say anything more than that.
j0n
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 23, 2005 at 11:32:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
but have lived in Texas
more years than l like to admit.
Hey Jerry
know whatchya mean dood.
where are you at?
-J
— jerry harville <jharville@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
how to obtain
and
self
administer the proper
dose
of ibogaine hydrocloride to
end
a long term
dependence???
At this time I am taking a
dail y dose o f 400 mg MS Con tin along with
benzos an hydro co.
—->Where does t h e ph ysical pain
end and the psychogical pain begin\?
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 9:10:54 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes, but you have to be lifted up too, Ken. For it is our way. Just because you appear to be some demented old shag-sack wanking all sorts of nonsense all over the place won’t stop me. I refuse to go to heaven without you! Even if we have to go back to psychology lesson 1 – those who don’t want to examine their own conflicts are condemned to forever try and create conflict around them – it matters not. You WILL be nice. And you WILL hug. And you WILL enjoy it. Yes, it WILL happen. For it is the Way. California uber alles.
with love
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 23 January 2005 04:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you my child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll like creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might find one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net] Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 9:00:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 23 January 2005 02:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Nick,
Perhaps a silly dialogue but what the hey. It was clear to me when I read Ken’s post that he was
primarily interested in learning more about the efficacy of ibogaine when used for drugs other than
opiates and wanted to hear personal experiences or other pertinent info. Didnt seem mysterious.
Not that he doesnt have unconscious reasons or motives as does any participant but the gist of
his message was clear to me. It just seemed to me that by sort of deconstructing his message
line by line you managed to stir in confusion where there really was none. Appeared to me you
were bored and having some fun.
No, I wouldn’t do that. Just trying to get a bit of clarity. Ken was talking about wanting first-hand experiences with drugs, which I assume means taking them, don’t know how you could get a first-hand experience otherwise. Then it’s like he doesn’t want to do it himself. You understand this? I don’t! Here’s the sentence below:
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience. This interest is not for myself personally, but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
Anyway, things are more clear now.
Love
Nick
Walt
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Walt,
I’m just trying to get a little clarity. Do you understand what Ken is asking? I genuinely don’t make sense of it.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 22 January 2005 01:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Nick,
Unless you have suffered serious mental deterioration since my last association with
the list a few years ago I KNOW you are not as obtuse as you present yourself here.
Walt D.
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 21 January 2005 17:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 7:29:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Eric writes, I think Ken wants to know what impact Ibogaine has on
stimulants. I’ve been wondering the same thing myself. I’m of the opinoin that Ibogaine
can help with any problem, I’m just not sure of the addiction interruption
aspects involved with crank and other non opioid drugs. Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: jerry harville <jharville@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hello
Date: January 23, 2005 at 6:42:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello to All,
My name is Jerry and I am new to the list.I have been lurking a while.My goal it to learn more
about how to obtain and self administer the proper dose of ibogaine hydrocloride to end
a long term dependence. At this time I am taking a daily dose of 400 mg MS Contin along with
benzos and hydrocodone. I am a chronic pain patient. I don’t know where the physical pain
ends and the psychogical pain begins. I have taken lots of mind expanding drugs in my
day. I started partying with them and ended up considering them as sacred.
I am greatful to have a list like this! I will be glad to answer any questions that will help
you get to know me better. Please forgive in advance my poor spelling as my spell check is
useless. I am from Detroit but have lived in Texas more years than l like to admit. Thanks
in advance for all your input! Jerry
From: Marcus <aktionman@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] patrik inna book!!!!!
Date: January 23, 2005 at 5:49:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Luv the photograph of Richard Hell and Johnny Thunders!
Thanks. That right up there ^^^ is an excellent summary. You fill up
a message with angst about pimpin’ junk’s mystique, and close with,
“Richard Hell and Johnny Thunders!!!! They’re soooooo fucked-up. How
cooL! <SwooN>” The end.<
hey….load dijjial!!!!
junk’s mystique…..havent thought abou that inna long time. having
spent the ’70s in marin co. (north side of golden gate bridge) that
image grabbed me hard. what a place to get seduced by that sweetheart
w/fangs.
chasin’ the dragon w/ garcia & others in the deadosphere.
nothin’ heavy or evil……..justtanother spice in the gumbo!!!
and always the shades……wear them night or day. like u board up the
windows to u’r soul. so no one will know.
sent shivers thru my spine just thinkin about it.
p, l, an u!!!!!
marcus
p,l,&u
marcus
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “suzanne corey” <pugsofcherryvalley@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_dreams
Date: January 23, 2005 at 4:31:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
TOO Good.TOO Real
Thank-you for sharing
—– Original Message —–
From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 5:47 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_dreams
”
like a feeling that i’m down
deep inside my heart
like i’m looking out through
splitting blood red
windows in my heart
from a higher up than heaven
and a harder down than stone
shake the fear that always clawing
pulls me clawing down alone
as i spitting splitting blood red
breaking windows in my heart
and the past is taunting
fear of ghosts
is forcing me apart
and the further i get
from the things that i care about
the less i care about
how much further away i get…
”
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%]
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Crank CrystaL Speed Meth amphfffffffffffetamine
Date: January 23, 2005 at 3:32:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
……………….Still waiting for Plane Tickets@!!!!
Geez, what a caring bunch…
Hehheh
koik
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 7:46 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Crank CrystaL Speed Meth amphfffffffffffetamine
My understanding is that Jonathan Freedlander is preparing a report on iboga
alkaloids and the amphetamines for presentation during one of the NY
Ibogaine
Forum science panels on Monday, February 21. Jon and I would look forward
to
an mp3 recording of his presentations and possibly others being made
available. I am not sure who else will be on his panel but as these things
come
together the presenters and agenda will be announced.
Thanks and looking forward to meeting all of you who can make the two-day
forum; Sunday, February 20 and Monday, February 21.
Howard
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel: 1 718 442-2754
dir fax: 1 718 442-1957
email: dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
In a message dated 1/22/05 6:32:49 PM, kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<< I too would love to hear any personal accounts of a
crystaL kick w/ ibo.
???Any ‘Providerz’ have any *Experience widdat that
wouldn’t mind Sh-Sh-Sharing to help K-K-Ken?
here’s a lazy link:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=ibogaine+methamphetamine&btnG=
Se
arch >>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 3:30:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lol, piss off you freaky troll!!! And calling me young aint gonna help ya!
And……if I’m your child, where the hell ya been all these years you useless old bugger????
Gee, being abusive is fun isn’t it???
:oP
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 5:06 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you my child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll like creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might find one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net] Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Crank CrystaL Speed Meth amphfffffffffffetamine
Date: January 23, 2005 at 1:46:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My understanding is that Jonathan Freedlander is preparing a report on iboga
alkaloids and the amphetamines for presentation during one of the NY Ibogaine
Forum science panels on Monday, February 21. Jon and I would look forward to
an mp3 recording of his presentations and possibly others being made
available. I am not sure who else will be on his panel but as these things come
together the presenters and agenda will be announced.
Thanks and looking forward to meeting all of you who can make the two-day
forum; Sunday, February 20 and Monday, February 21.
Howard
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel: 1 718 442-2754
dir fax: 1 718 442-1957
email: dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
In a message dated 1/22/05 6:32:49 PM, kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<< I too would love to hear any personal accounts of a
crystaL kick w/ ibo.
???Any ‘Providerz’ have any *Experience widdat that
wouldn’t mind Sh-Sh-Sharing to help K-K-Ken?
here’s a lazy link:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=ibogaine+methamphetamine&btnG=Se
arch >>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibongaine conference in february
Date: January 23, 2005 at 1:33:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think ya need some music for dem dare Ibogaine peoploids. I might could
hook ya up. Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 12:27:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ick.
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:06:16 -0800 “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
wrote:
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we
should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that
is certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself
up………into the light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless
you my child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a
troll like creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody
in it for having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason
I get the feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying,
you might find one that helps!!
——————————————————————-
———–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as
a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are
‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me
that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your
needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone
seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more
about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with
therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere
unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following
exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit
and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I
am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and
interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than
opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And
you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you
haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for
yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with
….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-
members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is
this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else
if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date:
01/12/2005
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date:
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Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 23, 2005 at 12:23:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Perhaps a silly dialogue but what the hey.
Reading in my own message, I wondered if Ken has a friend on
methamphetamine to whom he might recommend ibogaine.
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:33:54 -0800 walt denton
<wally1@willitsonline.com> wrote:
Hi Nick,
Perhaps a silly dialogue but what the hey. It was clear to me
when I read Ken’s post that he was
primarily interested in learning more about the efficacy of
ibogaine when used for drugs other than
opiates and wanted to hear personal experiences or other pertinent
info. Didnt seem mysterious.
Not that he doesnt have unconscious reasons or motives as does any
participant but the gist of
his message was clear to me. It just seemed to me that by sort of
deconstructing his message
line by line you managed to stir in confusion where there really
was none. Appeared to me you
were bored and having some fun.
Walt
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Walt,
I’m just trying to get a little clarity. Do you understand what
Ken is asking? I genuinely don’t make sense of it.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 22 January 2005 01:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Nick,
Unless you have suffered serious mental deterioration
since my last association with
the list a few years ago I KNOW you are not as obtuse as you
present yourself here.
Walt D.
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 21 January 2005 17:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your
needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone
seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more
about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with
therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere
unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following
exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit
and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post
I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and
interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than
opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And
you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you
haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs
for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person
with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer
ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-
members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is
this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone
else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early
years.
regards……Ken
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Patrick you’re in another book
Date: January 23, 2005 at 12:03:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yet Neal Cassady, along with Jim Carroll and Bob Dylan,
will always belong in hip’s cannon.
This sounds threatening… like another email I received today:
If you choose to ignore our request, you leave us no choise but
to temporaly suspend your account.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Huge amount of ibogaine press
Date: January 22, 2005 at 11:38:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for pointing that out.
From a brief look into GDNF, it seems to have both brain and
stomach effects, plus there seems to be a linkage of low GDNF with
insufficient breathing. Here are some items:
From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=600837
“Boucher et al. (2000) demonstrated that glial cell line-derived
neurotrophic factor (GDNF) both prevented and reversed sensory
abnormalities that developed in neuropathic pain models, without
affecting pain-related behavior in normal animals. GDNF reduced
ectopic discharges within sensory neurons after nerve injury.
Boucher et al. (2000) hypothesized that this may arise as a
consequence of reversal by GDNF of the injury-induced plasticity of
several sodium channel subunits, and argued that their findings
provide a rational basis for the use of GDNF as a therapeutic
treatment for neuropathic pain states.”
“In rodents, GDNF stimulates an increase in midbrain dopamine
levels, protects dopamine neurons from some neurotoxins, and
maintains injured dopamine neurons. Gash et al. (1996) extended the
rodent studies to rhesus monkey by evaluating the effects of GDNF
injected intracerebrally into monkeys that had had the
symptomatology and pathophysiologic features of Parkinson disease
induced by MPTP. The recipients of GDNF displayed significant
improvements in 3 of the cardinal symptoms of parkinsonism:
bradykinesia, rigidity, and postural instability. ”
“Experimental application of growth factors can alter the density
and distribution of axon branches; hence, growth factor release may
be one means by which target cells regulate the number of synaptic
connections they receive. Nguyen et al. (1998) generated several
lines of transgenic mice that overexpress GDNF under a muscle-
specific (myogenin; 159980) promoter. They found that
overexpression of GDNF by muscle greatly increased the number of
motor axons innervating neuromuscular junctions in neonatal mice.
The extent of hyperinnervation correlated with the amount of GDNF
expressed in 4 transgenic lines. Overexpression of GDNF by glia and
overexpression of NTF3 and neurotrophin-4 (NTF4; 162662) did not
cause hyperinnervation. During the period of greatest
hyperinnervation (birth to 3 weeks postnatal), the Myo-GDNF mice
exhibited a tremor. At neonatal ages, the shaking was sufficiently
obvious that transgenic animals could be distinguished from their
littermates without error. The severity of the tremor waned as
multiple innervation diminished. Normal rodent neonates have a
tremor that is most obvious during the first few postnatal days and
gradually subsides over the next week. This tremor may be analogous
to ‘jitteriness’ in human neonates. Disappearance of tremor
corresponded to the loss of multiple innervation in each transgenic
line, as it did in wildtype animals. ”
It looks like some people were administered GDNF directly, but
unlike the announcement, the result is not in the top Google hits.
From a news announcement on the part of 6 doctors, web page dated
2002:
“Developed by Amgen Inc., GDNF is a natural growth factor for
dopamine neurons and is found in low levels in the adult human
brain. It is believed the destruction of these neurons in the mid-
brain causes the symptoms of Parkinsons disease; current FDA-
approved treatments improve the symptoms but do not alter the
underlying disease process. Laboratory studies have demonstrated
that GDNF both protects and promotes regeneration of injured
midbrain dopamine neurons, and thus may directly influence the
degenerative disease process.
“This new investigational treatment uses a version of the Medtronic
SynchroMedź Infusion System, a surgically implantable, programmable
pump developed by Medtronic Inc. and pre-clinically tested at UK.
The system will deliver GDNF directly into the patients brain.
This new therapeutic approach makes possible treatments with drugs
that cannot be used at present because they do not cross the blood
brain barrier.”
http://www.mc.uky.edu/parkinsons/HTM/GDNF.htm
Here’s another study which sounds the same but the authors are
different:
“Gill et al. (2003) delivered GDNF directly into the putamen of 5
Parkinson patients in a phase 1 safety trial. One catheter needed
to be repositioned and there were changes in the MRIs that
disappeared after lowering the concentration of GDNF. After 1 year,
there were no serious clinical side effects, a 39% improvement in
the off-medication motor subscore of the Unified Parkinson Disease
Rating Scale (UPDRS), and a 61% improvement in the activities of
daily living subscore. Medication-induced dyskinesias were reduced
by 64% and were not observed off medication during chronic GDNF
delivery. Positron emission tomography (PET) scans of [18F]dopamine
uptake showed a significant 28% increase in putamen dopamine
storage after 18 months, suggesting a direct effect of GDNF on
dopamine function.”
GenAtlas has an interesting bunch of data:
http://www.dsi.univ-paris5.fr/genatlas/fiche.php?symbol=GDNF
Looking for possible ibogaine connections (there is much more,
including the DNA sequence):
“physiological period: fetal, pregnancy – developing gut, kidney,
mesenchyma, developing and regenerating peripheral nerves and
central nervous system, gut and kidney
“SUBCELLULAR LOCATION: extracellular
“basic FUNCTION:
– promoting survival and differentiation of subpopulations of
central and peripheral neurons including several groups;
stimulating Schwann cell migration via NCAM but independently of
RET
– playing an essential role in neural crest stem cell migration”
Brain cells allowed to change sounds familiar.
“cellular process: cell life, antiapoptosis
“text: neurogenesis,development and maintenance of intrahippocampal
circuitry and neuronal function and neuromuscular synapse”
I wonder if ‘neuromuscular synapse’ could have anything to do with
ibogaine’s ataxic effect.
“signaling: signal transduction
“associated pathology:
– many neurodegenerative disorders
– gliomas
“susceptibility: susceptibility to Hirschsprung disease and to
phaeochromocytoma”
I wonder if people with these problems would react differently to
ibogaine. Perhaps it would be worth adding a question about this to
any data-gathering on takers of ibogaine.
Random info from other sites:
“Nonmetastatic testicular tumors were regularly formed in older
GDNF-overexpressing mice.”
“This gene encodes a highly conserved neurotrophic factor. The
recombinant form of this protein was shown to promote the survival
and differentiation of dopaminergic neurons in culture, and was
able to prevent apoptosis of motor neurons induced by axotomy.”
“Function: Neurotrophic factor that enhances survival and
morphological differentiation of dopaminergic neurons and increases
their high-affinity dopamine uptake.”
“Disease: defects in gdnf may be a cause of hirschsprung disease
(hscr) [mim:142623]. In association with mutations of RET gene,
defects in GDNF may be involved in Hirschsprung’s disease. This
genetic disorder of neural crest development is characterized by
the absence of intramural ganglion cells in the hindgut, often
resulting in intestinal obstruction.
“Disease: defects in gdnf are a cause of congenital central
hypoventilation syndrome (cchs) [mim:209880]; also known as
congenital failure of autonomic control or Ondine’s curse. CCHS is
a rare disorder characterized by abnormal control of respiration in
the absence of neuromuscular or lung disease, or an identifiable
brain stem lesion. A deficiency in autonomic control of respiration
results in inadequate or negligible ventilatory and arousal
responses to hypercapnia and hypoxemia”
“hypercapnia: [n] the presence of an abnormally high level of
carbon dioxide in the circulating blood”
[hypercapnia: not breathing enough]
“Hypoxemia, or reduced oxygen in the blood,”
“On the Aug 2004 Human genome, NCBI 35 version of the human genome:
8 genes relate directly or indirectly to GDNF”
“10 bioalma disease relationships for GDNF are shown
Disease Score Articles
hirschsprung disease 135.29 78
parkinson disease 83.87 171
neurodegenerative diseases 79.31 114
multiple endocrine neoplasia 63.44 31
amyotrophic lateral sclerosis 49.99 49
multiple endocrine neoplasia type 2a 40.92 26
nerve degeneration 31.33 36
other motor neuron diseases 25.89 2
thyroid carcinoma, familial medullary 23.94 5
multiple endocrine neoplasia type 2b 21.82 12 ”
“10 bioalma chemical compound relationships for GDNF are shown
Compound Score Articles
tyrosine 69.02 247
heparan sulphate glycosaminoglycan 43.07 3
dopamine 38.88 120
mesencephalic dopamine 34.79 6
neurotoxin 6-hydroxydopamine 33.55 6
6-hydroxydopamine 33.07 27
glycosyl-phosphatidylinositol 29.39 9
ototoxin 24.97 2
rasagiline 24.79 3
phosphatidylinositide 22.84 5 ”
There is lots more out there..
“The paper looks very solid,” says Stanley Glick, a
neuropharmacologist at Albany Medical Center in New York, who has
studied ibogaine for many years. “They may indeed be on to a major
finding.” However, both Glick and Ron point out that boosting GDNF
may be only one of several mechanisms by which ibogaine acts to
ease addiction.
A synthetic ibogaine compound, 18-methoxycoronaridine, which Glick
has shown can help addicts with fewer harmful side effects than
ibogaine, may also work by controlling GDNF levels. In preliminary
studies with cultured nerve cells, Ron’s team found that 18-MC
also
raises GDNF levels.
I wonder what else may also raise GDNF levels, from antidepressants
to ayahuasca.
But the team is not pursuing the ibogaine approach. Instead, Ron
thinks it is time to narrow her focus. “Our idea now is to move
away from ibogaine and concentrate on GDNF,” she says. Her team
plans to look for ways to stimulate GDNF without side effects.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 11:06:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Come now ,Lass,
Where are all those warm and fuzzy, open hearted, feeeeeeelings we should all share with the world ?
Just because I’m a condescending, moldy spirited, curmudgeon that is certainly no reason why you cannot lift yourself up………into the light. I expect better of you young Kristy.
Bless you my child……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll like creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might find one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net] Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibongaine conference in february
Date: January 22, 2005 at 10:09:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:03 PM, jon wrote:
Hi there,
i’d like to know if there are some recordings planned for the panels on
the ibogaine conference in february in new york. It would be really cool
to get some mp3′ downloads from it…. Its a long way over the ocean..
if there aren’t plans to record it already, i could prolly rig up something.
patrick, dana, howard…. whatcha guys think?
Yeah…
I’ll talk to you in the next coupla daze.
Lettuce do this.
Hum … <thinking ’bout video>
Okay, fuck it … let’s Do sumthiN MagicaL.
Patrick
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibongaine conference in february
Date: January 22, 2005 at 10:03:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi there,
i’d like to know if there are some recordings planned for the panels on
the ibogaine conference in february in new york. It would be really cool
to get some mp3′ downloads from it…. Its a long way over the ocean..
if there aren’t plans to record it already, i could prolly rig up something.
patrick, dana, howard…. whatcha guys think?
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Patrick you’re in another book
Date: January 22, 2005 at 9:41:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Jan 22, 2005, at 1:24 AM, Vivienne Elanta wrote:
He cautions against drugs and then shows how all the coolest people are f***’d
up 24/7 and it’s nearly a commercial for heroin. He’s got you Patrick with
heroin, technology, the new edge and loads of good stuff, but ibogaine has a
one word mention in a sentence somewhere in the back.
Hullo. I neither wrote nor edited the book. I haven’t read it yet. When I talk about drugs then yes, heroin is always mentioned. So is ibogaine, and usually other whitelight molecules such as LSD.
What hits paper is almost exclusively junk. Ibogaine is stripped out, and LSD hasn’t landed a single time.
The demographic that appears interested in whitelight molecules are the entheogen crowd. The people who want to listen ’bout ibogaine, are a broader mix. But primarily it all amounts to: preaching to the choir.
Everybody else wants the dirT. Junkie war stories.
Luv the photograph of Richard Hell and Johnny Thunders!
Thanks. That right up there ^^^ is an excellent summary. You fill up a message with angst about pimpin’ junk’s mystique, and close with, “Richard Hell and Johnny Thunders!!!! They’re soooooo fucked-up. How cooL! <SwooN>” The end.
And, of course, you purchased the book.
“I was so shocked, disgusted, offended and outraged … I bought 5 copies.”
Patrick
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 9:38:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Trolls! How interesting this is my impression of you, Ken, a troll like creature constantly sneering at the world and everybody in it for having beliefs, ideas or traditions, and for some reason I get the feeling you were a lot happier on drugs!!! Keep trying, you might find one that helps!!
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net] Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 4:27 p.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] unsubscruibe
Date: January 22, 2005 at 9:38:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Unsubscribe yourself!! Please..
From: Robert Ray [mailto:robertray_2000@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 7:46 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] unsubscruibe
unsubscribe me please.
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
From: “walt denton” <wally1@willitsonline.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 9:33:54 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick,
Perhaps a silly dialogue but what the hey. It was clear to me when I read Ken’s post that he was
primarily interested in learning more about the efficacy of ibogaine when used for drugs other than
opiates and wanted to hear personal experiences or other pertinent info. Didnt seem mysterious.
Not that he doesnt have unconscious reasons or motives as does any participant but the gist of
his message was clear to me. It just seemed to me that by sort of deconstructing his message
line by line you managed to stir in confusion where there really was none. Appeared to me you
were bored and having some fun.
Walt
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Walt,
I’m just trying to get a little clarity. Do you understand what Ken is asking? I genuinely don’t make sense of it.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 22 January 2005 01:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Nick,
Unless you have suffered serious mental deterioration since my last association with
the list a few years ago I KNOW you are not as obtuse as you present yourself here.
Walt D.
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 21 January 2005 17:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Crank CrystaL Speed Meth amphfffffffffffetamine
Date: January 22, 2005 at 7:04:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m not going to share it har,har,har!
If you want to know get addicted for a while take ibogaine self administer
And find out if it works then it may work for others, we are no rats!
S.
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: zondag 23 januari 2005 0:32
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Crank CrystaL Speed Meth amphfffffffffffetamine
I too would love to hear any personal accounts of a
crystaL kick w/ ibo.
???Any ‘Providerz’ have any *Experience widdat that
wouldn’t mind Sh-Sh-Sharing to help K-K-Ken?
here’s a lazy link:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=ibogaine+methamphetamine&btnG=
Search
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
Hey Hannah, it’s really cool your doin’ better.
Cheers,
-J
111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 6:51:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
OK!
—–Original Message—–
From: IBEGINAGAIN@aol.com [mailto:IBEGINAGAIN@aol.com]
Sent: 22 January 2005 22:32
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Nick,
I think Ken just wants to know what impact ibogaine has on stimulants.
Eric
From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Crank CrystaL Speed Meth amphfffffffffffetamine
Date: January 22, 2005 at 6:32:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I too would love to hear any personal accounts of a
crystaL kick w/ ibo.
???Any ‘Providerz’ have any *Experience widdat that
wouldn’t mind Sh-Sh-Sharing to help K-K-Ken?
here’s a lazy link:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=ibogaine+methamphetamine&btnG=Search
11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
Hey Hannah, it’s really cool your doin’ better.
Cheers,
-J
111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_dreams
Date: January 22, 2005 at 5:47:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
”
like a feeling that i’m down
deep inside my heart
like i’m looking out through
splitting blood red
windows in my heart
from a higher up than heaven
and a harder down than stone
shake the fear that always clawing
pulls me clawing down alone
as i spitting splitting blood red
breaking windows in my heart
and the past is taunting
fear of ghosts
is forcing me apart
and the further i get
from the things that i care about
the less i care about
how much further away i get…
”
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Disturbances in The Force
Date: January 22, 2005 at 5:34:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
We are experiencing Disturbances in The Force. MindVox may flicker in and out of existence for a while. Do not panic. All is well. Light up a blunt and find sumthin’ else to do in the event of CrisiS.
Thank youz,
Patrick
Begin forwarded message:
From: “Evan D. Baer” <evan@wiretap.com>
Date: January 22, 2005 2:49:54 PM EST
To: [Undisclosed]
Subject: [Open Bandwidth] denial of service traffic
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619)
There have been bursts in the outbound traffic on the network since earlier this morning.
If you are noticing slowness on the network or see a high number of connections on your server – let me know.
AboveNet operations is debugging this right now.
– Evan
…
From: AboveNet Client Services [Undisclosed]
Subject: Network Events – January 22nd, 2005
We are currently experiencing network
connectivity issues. These issues began at
04:00am (EST). We are investigating the cause
and will continue to keep you updated as to the
progress and resolution of this event.
If you have any further questions or concerns,
please feel free to call the AboveNet 24×7 NMC.
The contact numbers for the NOC follow:
[Undisclosed]
Thank you,
AboveNet Client Services
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From: IBEGINAGAIN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 5:31:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick,
I think Ken just wants to know what impact ibogaine has on stimulants.
Eric
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 4:00:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Walt,
I’m just trying to get a little clarity. Do you understand what Ken is asking? I genuinely don’t make sense of it.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: walt denton [mailto:wally1@willitsonline.com]
Sent: 22 January 2005 01:07
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Nick,
Unless you have suffered serious mental deterioration since my last association with
the list a few years ago I KNOW you are not as obtuse as you present yourself here.
Walt D.
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 21 January 2005 17:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Date: January 22, 2005 at 2:24:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi hannah
Thank you so much for the valuable advice,I am sure i will need to ask more questions and in a few months i hope im feeling like you, what about stopping the sub is that fairly easy??
once again thank you i really appreciate all your advice
love Donna
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 1:52:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Sapphirestardus@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Ken. My name is Julian and I rarely write to the forum anymore but I do read it all the time. All I really wanted to say is Ibogaine can ‘reprogram’ our physical organ where the mind, soul, essence et al manifest theirselves. My experience convinced me that with virtually every known abused substance, Ibogaine can yield phenomenal success. The problem, though is too many people perceive this as ‘The Panacea’. There are a wide assortment of treatments in our culture and they all work for somebody! It always comews down to the same shit though, and that is what you really want, what you expect from the treatment. Ibogaine is wonderful, but if you are not wholly committed to abstain from whatever drug you wish to delete from your life, it won’t work. At best it will buy you some time, but I also believe with the proper guide(s) many haullucinogens could achieve similiar results. Ibogaine’s main property is the reversal of the withdrawal syndrome, but beyond that, it is as effective as you wish it to be.
I don’t know if I responded to your inquiry appropriately, but it is what it is!
Regards,
Julian
Hello Julian,
If Ibogaine can,as you believe, “cure virtually every known abused substance” I would like to hear some personal testimonies of some of the lesser known ‘cures’.
I certainly agre with you that ibogaine allows a ‘window of opportunity’ but it takes prolonged conviction to remain free of addiction. However, I feel that the chemical ingredients within tabernanthe iboga will render most consumers opiate dependent free (at least temporarily) whether they wish it to be or not.
As for other hallucinogens having ‘similar’ therapeutic value…… hhmmmm. Certainly, for a someone new to hallucinogens there is a fuzzy little glow of self perceived increase in self absorbed ‘conciousness’ but in my experience….LSD/peyote/psilocybin is child’s play comapared to Ibogaine.
Good talking with you…….Ken
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Date: January 22, 2005 at 1:56:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The waiting lists here are like 9months before you get treatment so I tried to use that time to use harm reduction-reduce the amount I was taking and reduce the actual number of times I had a dig per day. Its hard. You have to leave enough time for the H to leave your body before you take your Subutex-this may be where you went wrong before. The general guidelines are 12hrs or when you know you are starting to rattle-you should feel bad but not dying if you know what I mean. It helps to cuz then when it works you’re so much more grateful! I found the first 3 days rough when I first did it-tearful and rattley-its really good if you have a way of contacting your Doctor more personally if you do feel bad cuz they can up the dose or whatever. Yet I’ve been through that routine lots of times since and have never felt bad. It doesn’t make you dopey like Meth. I was on it a year and used H concurrently sometimes. The best thing you can do is just Never allow yourself ‘Just the one’ Whether there is WD is controversial. I have decreased amount very quickly and not really noticed! One time I was at 12mg a day and now its 1 or 2. They are blockers anyway so doing gears pointless-you either don’t feel it, only feel enough to make you want more and little else and you have to spend lotsa cash and risk ODing!
I reckon its the best thing the NHS is currently offering-its relatively painless but you do need to start thinking about how you’re going to fill up that excess time? Treat yourself to massages or hairdo’s or horseriding or whatever makes you happy, with the money you would have been spending on gear! I’m really glad I’ve the Uni work cuz I think of it when I’m bored and comedowny. Try to avoid these states and any triggers like people, places, etc. Get rid of ALL of your works. (Don’t leave one…just in case! ;-)) Do anything to make a new situation. It is hard. Try not to change over to another drug like when you’re on a rebound. Really give yourself a break and eventually the best thing for you could be a night out with a couple of drinks with a friend and all of as sudden you have a whole new set of clean friends! That’s how it went for me anyway.
I’ll stop rambling now. I’m no Doctor, these are just my experiences and I don’t want you to have to make the same mistakes I did (like doing H and Sub for a year before I started using it properly, risking my script). I hope I can help you evolve quicker! I feel like a different person. I started H at 19 and since 16 it had been drink and pills and before that I was a teenager. I guess this ‘different person’ must be me! I’m 24btw.
Anyway, ask ANYTHING and I hope I can help.
In a prefect world we’d have been able to do Ibogaine and the process would’ve been much quicker!
Love Hannah
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Hi Hannah
how did you switch from h to the sub? what was it like? (I have done it before but took a large dose and went into severe withdrawals) I ask because i am planning to do this soon as the ibogaine treatment fell through.
Love Donna
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety (Jason)
Date: January 22, 2005 at 1:31:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Francis,
I did have a friend who was training as a life coach so gave me a few
sessions. I really miss her but I’m still try those NLP techniques and
really believe in their power.
Let me just say I’m so happy to be back on the list! I’m still not up to
date (only 545 to go! 😉 ) but it’s just great to be receiving support,
friendship and most importantly help from people who I really feel a special
bond with.
Jason-I just read a couple of your posts from January and they were
empowering words my brother! I really really hope as I catch up, that your
posts won’t change one bit! 🙂
Lotsa love Hannah
—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Hannah,
You wrote :
I saw a friend today who I
used to score with and I know he still does. Immediately I very nearly
asked him to score for me. I don’t know why, it was totally on
impulse-association I guess
Don’t worry this is an anchor : you had a visual, auditive stimulation
that
trigger the desire to score.
Sometimes the tought of using will comes from nowhere like a bird in the
sky: let it pass and don’t let the bird nest in your head 🙂
Talking about ” anchor ” I found a place where the concept of anchor is
well
explain :
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/neurological-2.html
Actualy, the good news is that you can create your own “anchors”
# confidence
# Excelence and so on
NlP are very powerful tools for change.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Thanks so much for the support Francis. I will definitely use your
technique. I’ve been trying use visualisation to help my depression and
lack of self-confidence. I do find it difficult though-maybe it was the
drugs?-but I find imagining hard now, picturing something in my head.
Especially me as a wonderful self-confident woman!!! 😉
I’ll keep you all updated. I still can’t face going through my backlog
of
messages so I don’t know what else is going on! I saw a friend today
who
I
used to score with and I know he still does. Immediately I very nearly
asked him to score for me. I don’t know why, it was totally on
impulse-association I guess. I just forget why I’m doing this
immediately!
Luckily my brain is starting to act more quickly and so I never said
anything….and you know what? 5 minutes later after I’d left the guy I
was
SO glad I didn’t score! Its like all my rational thoughts suddenly
reappeared.
I have a long way to go before I’m over it but the first steps are the
hardest and I hope it gets easier. Most of the time I’m so busy doing
uni
reading or walking my dog or actually socialising (with clean or
understanding friends) I don’t even think about it.
Yes I’m scared but I just have to get through it-I couldn’t go on as I
was.
I would more likely be dead or else locked up!
Thanks again,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Hi Hannah !
I am really happy to see how good you are doing 🙂
Regarding anxiety, in my humble opinion. Anxiety is there to tell you
something.
Like a pain in the back is telling you wich movement you have to
avoid
to
hurt yourself more.
Now, I give you an example: a young child learning how to walk. Is at
the
bottom of a long stairway.
He realy want to go upstair, like everybody else.But now is paralysed
by
fear, is full of self doubt, he had a strange feeling somewhere in his
guts,
a kind of disconfort that later , as an adult he will label :anxiety.
Do you think he can make it ?/!
I am learning now something I realy don’t like to do but that I want
to
do
it ,and…, and this is producing in me some
(or a lot , I do I know ?/!) of” anxiety “.
Actualy, I am not even sure that this is anxiety. Somebody told me…
I call it fear and I am not even sure this is fear..
To make a long story short. When this “thing ” comes I like to play
with
it
( a friend teach me this technique )
First you welcome the “thing”.like ” hi !! welcome back, would like a
cup
of
tea ?” ” So wat’s up ? ”
Then you try hard to intensify the feeling to the max. then try to
reduce
it. then try to make it big, realy big, intense…..Then you
visualize
it
outside of you, then inside… so on and so on..
The “thing” realy don’t like to be play with and will leave you.
It’s normal to feel a little bet of disconfort at the begining of a
new,
great, adventure, but that the deal. You have to go throught the pain
and
no
pill in the world will do the job for you.We have to win our own
battle
one
step at the time..
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hello Hannah,
The anxiety is rough. Have you tried ‘clonidine’ ? You will need a
‘script.
Do some on line research first to see if you think it is worthwhile
for
you.
It lowers the blood pressure and it helped me through some rough
times.
best regards…..Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
I must be really quick cuz I have to go to bed cuz I’m up early in
the
morning. Basically I’ve been busy keeping clean ( :-)))) and my
PC’s
been
down for ages. I have 624 messages from the list to work through
and
dunno
when I’ll get round to it! Hope everybody’s ok and happy? I’ve
been
up
and
down. I’ve dabbled so I guess I’m not clean but I FEEL clean! It
doesn’t
rule my life anymore though I still unfortunately have a few
problems
with
people from the scene. I feel like its ages since I had any but
now
I
see
it was only 8 days ago but only a tiny bit. Put it like this-in
the
past
4.5wks I’ve had it 4 times n that’s AMAZING for me. Today I was
unfortunate
enough to have to sit in a room with people doing it but I felt
NOTHING!
Its like I can see rationally again. And when I have slipped its
been
small
amounts and each time I’ve instantly regretted it. I’m down from
8mg
to
2mg
of Subutex a day. It feels like its been months! I don’t want
anymore
though I’m taking it one day at a time. Most people don’t know
but
even
those that don’t have said how much happier and healthier I look.
I’m
still
cut up about being dumped from my 3yr relationship but I’m used to
it
now
and enjoying the freedom-my flat’s never been so tidy! Now
there’s
no
man
to mess it up as soon as I’ve cleaned it! 😉 I said I was gonna
be
quick
and I really must go. I’m working on my self-confidence and just
started
my
Open University course so I can finally complete the last 2yrs of
my
BSc
Psychology degree! I’m very poor on benefits and trying to pay
rent
alone
etc but compared to when I was doing gear I’m rich! I can’t
believe
all
the
money I threw away (or shot up my veins)-now I can see how much
£25
actually
buys you! I can’t believe I was spending hundreds some days! I
was
getting
badly into crack aswell so really my boyf did the best thing.
Without
him
judging me and making me feel ashamed I’m a totally different
person.
I’ve
met loads of new (clean) friends and now actually have a social
life!
I
walk my dog miles each day and I’m getting back into my Yoga and
trying
to
eat healthily. I am taking the odd Valium tough, probably 3 a
week-will
this become a problem? Its just I still get periods of intense
despair
and
anxiety, especially about starting my course and they really help.
I
don’t
want to abuse them though, just use them if I really need them.
This
is
turning into an essay! I’ve missed you guys so much and always
wondered
how
you’re all doing. I’ll probably have to put a couple of days
aside
to
get
through this backlog! Oh and my friend is training in Reflexology
so
I
get
that weekly too!
Now I really must go! I just wanted to share the good news. Its
doesn’t
sound so great on paper but it honestly feels like months to me!
I
grow
stronger every day and suddenly I have a future!
Thanks for caring,
Loads and loads of love to you all,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hi Hannah,
how are ya, girl? Haven’t heard from you in a
while…wondering how yer doin’?
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 1:11:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I would personally go with the “being at home with someone I trust” for sure. I am not all that keen to go elsewhere to try the stuff.
Again.
I’ve thought a lot about it, but the “own home” thing is just so much better in my book- but my book isn’t others’ book. It might not be the same with others.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Ken
Thanks for that advice, I was due to be treated last sunday and it all fell through but originally i wanted to treat myself with my husband being there but most people advised against this, the main reason is from what i’ve heard about ibogaine i would rather be in my own home with some one i really trust.
love donna
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 1:10:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Just to reiterate what Ken just said:
For some it can be ‘a one shot deal’ but I believe it may depend on the depth of the addiction.<
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: ….Ken
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Ken
Thank you for that, I have only heard of binge drinkers having the ibogaine. Also what was it like when you had the ibogaine???, How did you feel afterwards?
Love Donna
Hi Donna,
Ibogaine is rather intense and quite exhausting…..In my case, nausea was a problem (only) if I moved.
If I laid still it was intense and ‘entertaining’. Afterwards….physically, it took me several days to regain my usually feeling of ‘narmalcy’. Psychologically, I was simply awed that I had NO taste for H. After seven years it was like getting rid of a houseguest that I had become to resent.
I gather that you have not ‘experimented’ with ibogaine yet. For some it can be ‘a one shot deal’ but I believe it may depend on the depth of the addiction. Weaning off beforehand ,as best as you are able is a good idea, especially with methadone.
take care…….Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 11:55:52 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Ken
Thanks for that advice, I was due to be treated last sunday and it all fell through but originally i wanted to treat myself with my husband being there but most people advised against this, the main reason is from what i’ve heard about ibogaine i would rather be in my own home with some one i really trust.
love donna
Hi Donna,
This may be unpopular…..but I generally support self administering with support. Take full responsibility for yourself…..it is your choice alone. You will require a support person, if only to pass you a glass of water. My wife sat beside me, and when it was her turn, I sat beside her.
Be well read on the subject, have your general health checked and simply commit yourself. Anyone who studies addiction without ever have been a ‘participant’ will caution you of the ‘potential risks’ of ibogaine…..chronic drug users live with greater risks than ibogaine every bloody day……in my opinion.
best regards…..Ken
From: Sapphirestardus@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 11:50:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ken. My name is Julian and I rarely write to the forum anymore but I do read it all the time. All I really wanted to say is Ibogaine can ‘reprogram’ our physical organ where the mind, soul, essence et al manifest theirselves. My experience convinced me that with virtually every known abused substance, Ibogaine can yield phenomenal success. The problem, though is too many people perceive this as ‘The Panacea’. There are a wide assortment of treatments in our culture and they all work for somebody! It always comews down to the same shit though, and that is what you really want, what you expect from the treatment. Ibogaine is wonderful, but if you are not wholly committed to abstain from whatever drug you wish to delete from your life, it won’t work. At best it will buy you some time, but I also believe with the proper guide(s) many haullucinogens could achieve similiar results. Ibogaine’s main property is the reversal of the withdrawal syndrome, but beyond that, it is as effective as you wish it to be.
I don’t know if I responded to your inquiry appropriately, but it is what it is!
Regards,
Julian
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 11:36:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ken
Thanks for that advice, I was due to be treated last sunday and it all fell through but originally i wanted to treat myself with my husband being there but most people advised against this, the main reason is from what i’ve heard about ibogaine i would rather be in my own home with some one i really trust.
love donna
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 11:31:13 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Ken
Thank you for that, I have only heard of binge drinkers having the ibogaine. Also what was it like when you had the ibogaine???, How did you feel afterwards?
Love Donna
Hi Donna,
Ibogaine is rather intense and quite exhausting…..In my case, nausea was a problem (only) if I moved.
If I laid still it was intense and ‘entertaining’. Afterwards….physically, it took me several days to regain my usually feeling of ‘narmalcy’. Psychologically, I was simply awed that I had NO taste for H. After seven years it was like getting rid of a houseguest that I had become to resent.
I gather that you have not ‘experimented’ with ibogaine yet. For some it can be ‘a one shot deal’ but I believe it may depend on the depth of the addiction. Weaning off beforehand ,as best as you are able is a good idea, especially with methadone.
take care…….Ken
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Patrick you’re in another book
Date: January 22, 2005 at 9:57:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have got to say this. When I read the line about Patrick and the drug
commercial, one popped in my head. Picture this, THIS YOUR BRAIN, ( footage of
person at work with post-it notes stuck to their forehead and all over their
computer screen with their boss screaming at them in the background). THIS IS YOUR
BRAIN ON HEROIN, ( footage of Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt, your choice,
naked, about to screw you within an inch of your life). THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON
IBOGAINE, fill in the blanks, my footage is too personal.hehehehehehehe Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Richard Hell and the Voidoids
Date: January 22, 2005 at 9:23:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston, the next time you see Brooks and Dunn, (country act), look at the
lead guitar player. When he was younger he looked dead on Richard Hell. He still
does if you ask me. I still fuck with him about it. That’s it!!!! I’m goin’
cross over to country punk. Cowboy hat with safety pins all over it and get
real drunk and yell abusive stuff at the audience……. wait, George Jones did
that.hehehe Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Date: January 22, 2005 at 5:48:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Hannah
how did you switch from h to the sub? what was it like? (I have done it before but took a large dose and went into severe withdrawals) I ask because i am planning to do this soon as the ibogaine treatment fell through.
Love Donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 22, 2005 at 5:40:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ken
Thank you for that, I have only heard of binge drinkers having the ibogaine. Also what was it like when you had the ibogaine???, How did you feel afterwards?
Love Donna
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Patrick you’re in another book
Date: January 22, 2005 at 4:24:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Vivien (?) wrote >Really tho he starts by cautioning folks in the opener, he’s got loads of great
material with you Patrick, interviews and quoting your writing and he’s got an
whole chapter on why heroin is so cool, with Paul Krassner opening it up.<
Then I must say I’m glad I got the honor of writing the “heroin” story in Paul’s “other drugs” collection/book.
;-))
He cautions against drugs and then shows how all the coolest people are f***’d
up 24/7 and it’s nearly a commercial for heroin.<
Ahhh, the definition of “cool.” That helps, a lot, specially at about this time, that “oh shit, I’ve got how many pills until I can see the doc again” stage.
Two generations of so-called yippie culture, with Paul Krassner and Patrick and
the both of you are one long heroin commercial. Shame on you both! I shouldn’t
say that, there isn’t anyone in his book who isn’t a drug commercial.<
For shame.
Luv the photograph of Richard Hell and Johnny Thunders!<
If I had a dime for every person who told me while I was on the streets of LES strung out that they’d hung out/got high/played guitar/otherwise jammed with Thunders, I’d have enough money for all the drugs I could ever..well, that’s impossible, but you get my drift, right?
I’ve redicovered the secret of drinking vodka to kill that “ouch, my skin hurts a lot along with all the rest of my pain.” It doesn’t really kill it, but it makes everything more wobbly, and slightly warmer, which makes the rest of it almost bearable.
Anuther one of those :-0) things.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Vivienne Elanta” <vivienneelanta@yahoo.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Patrick you’re in another book
I have this book, it’s really a good read for all the historical research he’s
put in and how memes and cool propagates through generations. He makes that
clear in the Yippies and Patrick with Legion of Doom.
Really tho he starts by cautioning folks in the opener, he’s got loads of great
material with you Patrick, interviews and quoting your writing and he’s got an
whole chapter on why heroin is so cool, with Paul Krassner opening it up.
He cautions against drugs and then shows how all the coolest people are f***’d
up 24/7 and it’s nearly a commercial for heroin. He’s got you Patrick with
heroin, technology, the new edge and loads of good stuff, but ibogaine has a
one word mention in a sentence somewhere in the back.
Largest organized secret service manhunt in history on legion of doom, the cool
of being dead, the cool of being hip, that’s all there. Ibogaine is missing in
action. The only reference is under your name patrick, his very large index
doesn’t even list ibogaine.
His whole premise is that the only cool whites are the criminals and junkies,
the ‘white niggers’ as he writes.
Two generations of so-called yippie culture, with Paul Krassner and Patrick and
the both of you are one long heroin commercial. Shame on you both! I shouldn’t
say that, there isn’t anyone in his book who isn’t a drug commercial.
Luv the photograph of Richard Hell and Johnny Thunders!
Blessed be.
Vivienne Elanta
— Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Patrick, from my college bookstore 🙂
Hip: The History
by John Leland
Your quotes open one of his sections, you’ve got 9 or 10 pages, you,
Legion of Doom, secret service, how it connects to the Yippies, ending
with you in Florida, heroin addiction and ibogaine.
Another fine job of tying it all together 🙂
Congrats, in his closing White Niggers, he’s got you with Dylan, Mark
Twain and compares you to modern day Jesse James 🙂 Love you Patrick,
but I’m not typing in all those pages, I’m sure he sent you a copy
anyway.
You’re a beautiful psycho 🙂
I’ll type one sentence for you 🙂 Give me email already!
“The hip antihero gathers no moss. We think of Dylan, Huck or Sal, or
Jesse James, or Lord Digital, as traveling through a world with no
baggage. Reinventing themselves on the road.”
“What is missing from this story is what the travelers bring back to us
when they arrive. Along with their own unique epiphanies, the road
warriors also transport ideas and knowledge from one place to another.
Their adventures, in turn, seduce other travelers into motion.”
.:vector:.
The proper way to read this book is of course, from the back. Checking
to see if your name is in the index. If it’s not in there (and let’s
face it, what are the chances?) my apologies. For some reason your hang
time at the Six Gallery, or Northsix in Williamsburg, your matted coif
and ironic eyeglasses, your collection of final vinyl and Burroughs
first-editions, has escaped everyone’s notice but your own. Probably
the hip guy you knew in high school, or wish you were, or the ghost you
passed at the needle exchange, didn’t make it into this book either.
Hip is an elusive thing and sometimes must be its own reward.
If you are in the index, another sort of apology is in order. This is
not a conventional history, faithfully reporting the experiences of
people who lived it. Instead, it is a history of public perception,
which by its nature is sometimes awry. Its distortions are part of what
makes hip.
If you think of Thelonious Monk or Miles Davis onstage, or Rakim
writing rhymes in Long Island, Jay Z in the Bronx, you might think they
are thinking very hip thoughts, but it is their imagination and the
actions that people who are seduced by it take, that form hip’s course.
Hip is romanticism, not a catalog of facts.
Hip is about people who cause waves that ripple through the big pond,
it is not a suggestion to follow in their footsteps and become the next
Neal Cassady, freezing to death in a ditch in Mexico after a
methamphetmine induced heart attack. Yet Neal Cassady, along with Jim
Carroll and Bob Dylan, will always belong in hip’s cannon.
In truth far too many of the celebrated figures in these pages led
melancholy and difficult lives of isolation, mental illness and drug
addiction. Interesting and romantic to read about, but very tough on
those who live them.
In the words of Ice-T, don’t hate the player, hate the game. As the
saying goes those who can, do. Those who can’t, purchased this book.
This book takes the reader on a remarkable journey from 17th century
plantations to 21st century Williamsburg, Brooklyn. On route, we meet
America’s greatest hipsters- people who used language and manipulated
the forces around them to transform society, from Mark Twain to
Muhammed Ali, from Charlie Parker to Richard Hell. Leland draws a
family tree linking the most influential cultural movements across
generations, detailing not only how the unique American experience
begat our cultural icons, but how, in turn, those enlightened
individuals have shaped the world around them, our world.
“Hip: A History” is sufficiently thorough and analytical to read like a
textbook of American cultural history. But its much more than that.
Leland’s narratives put us right in the middle of some of the most
provocative scenes: minstrel shows, the beats, bebops, early hip-hop
and grafetti art, to name a few. You may not always agree with Leland
about what is hip; that’s part of the fun. But get on board for this
trip across the racial, ethnic, geographic, economic and cultural
divide that has brought us together and torn us apart over the last 350
years and catch a glimpse of the artists who had their fingers on the
pulse of their America. Its quite a ride.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Robert Ray <robertray_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] unsubscruibe
Date: January 22, 2005 at 1:45:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
unsubscribe me please.
From: Vivienne Elanta <vivienneelanta@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Patrick you’re in another book
Date: January 22, 2005 at 1:24:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have this book, it’s really a good read for all the historical research he’s
put in and how memes and cool propagates through generations. He makes that
clear in the Yippies and Patrick with Legion of Doom.
Really tho he starts by cautioning folks in the opener, he’s got loads of great
material with you Patrick, interviews and quoting your writing and he’s got an
whole chapter on why heroin is so cool, with Paul Krassner opening it up.
He cautions against drugs and then shows how all the coolest people are f***’d
up 24/7 and it’s nearly a commercial for heroin. He’s got you Patrick with
heroin, technology, the new edge and loads of good stuff, but ibogaine has a
one word mention in a sentence somewhere in the back.
Largest organized secret service manhunt in history on legion of doom, the cool
of being dead, the cool of being hip, that’s all there. Ibogaine is missing in
action. The only reference is under your name patrick, his very large index
doesn’t even list ibogaine.
His whole premise is that the only cool whites are the criminals and junkies,
the ‘white niggers’ as he writes.
Two generations of so-called yippie culture, with Paul Krassner and Patrick and
the both of you are one long heroin commercial. Shame on you both! I shouldn’t
say that, there isn’t anyone in his book who isn’t a drug commercial.
Luv the photograph of Richard Hell and Johnny Thunders!
Blessed be.
Vivienne Elanta
— Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Patrick, from my college bookstore 🙂
Hip: The History
by John Leland
Your quotes open one of his sections, you’ve got 9 or 10 pages, you,
Legion of Doom, secret service, how it connects to the Yippies, ending
with you in Florida, heroin addiction and ibogaine.
Another fine job of tying it all together 🙂
Congrats, in his closing White Niggers, he’s got you with Dylan, Mark
Twain and compares you to modern day Jesse James 🙂 Love you Patrick,
but I’m not typing in all those pages, I’m sure he sent you a copy
anyway.
You’re a beautiful psycho 🙂
I’ll type one sentence for you 🙂 Give me email already!
“The hip antihero gathers no moss. We think of Dylan, Huck or Sal, or
Jesse James, or Lord Digital, as traveling through a world with no
baggage. Reinventing themselves on the road.”
“What is missing from this story is what the travelers bring back to us
when they arrive. Along with their own unique epiphanies, the road
warriors also transport ideas and knowledge from one place to another.
Their adventures, in turn, seduce other travelers into motion.”
.:vector:.
The proper way to read this book is of course, from the back. Checking
to see if your name is in the index. If it’s not in there (and let’s
face it, what are the chances?) my apologies. For some reason your hang
time at the Six Gallery, or Northsix in Williamsburg, your matted coif
and ironic eyeglasses, your collection of final vinyl and Burroughs
first-editions, has escaped everyone’s notice but your own. Probably
the hip guy you knew in high school, or wish you were, or the ghost you
passed at the needle exchange, didn’t make it into this book either.
Hip is an elusive thing and sometimes must be its own reward.
If you are in the index, another sort of apology is in order. This is
not a conventional history, faithfully reporting the experiences of
people who lived it. Instead, it is a history of public perception,
which by its nature is sometimes awry. Its distortions are part of what
makes hip.
If you think of Thelonious Monk or Miles Davis onstage, or Rakim
writing rhymes in Long Island, Jay Z in the Bronx, you might think they
are thinking very hip thoughts, but it is their imagination and the
actions that people who are seduced by it take, that form hip’s course.
Hip is romanticism, not a catalog of facts.
Hip is about people who cause waves that ripple through the big pond,
it is not a suggestion to follow in their footsteps and become the next
Neal Cassady, freezing to death in a ditch in Mexico after a
methamphetmine induced heart attack. Yet Neal Cassady, along with Jim
Carroll and Bob Dylan, will always belong in hip’s cannon.
In truth far too many of the celebrated figures in these pages led
melancholy and difficult lives of isolation, mental illness and drug
addiction. Interesting and romantic to read about, but very tough on
those who live them.
In the words of Ice-T, don’t hate the player, hate the game. As the
saying goes those who can, do. Those who can’t, purchased this book.
This book takes the reader on a remarkable journey from 17th century
plantations to 21st century Williamsburg, Brooklyn. On route, we meet
America’s greatest hipsters- people who used language and manipulated
the forces around them to transform society, from Mark Twain to
Muhammed Ali, from Charlie Parker to Richard Hell. Leland draws a
family tree linking the most influential cultural movements across
generations, detailing not only how the unique American experience
begat our cultural icons, but how, in turn, those enlightened
individuals have shaped the world around them, our world.
“Hip: A History” is sufficiently thorough and analytical to read like a
textbook of American cultural history. But its much more than that.
Leland’s narratives put us right in the middle of some of the most
provocative scenes: minstrel shows, the beats, bebops, early hip-hop
and grafetti art, to name a few. You may not always agree with Leland
about what is hip; that’s part of the fun. But get on board for this
trip across the racial, ethnic, geographic, economic and cultural
divide that has brought us together and torn us apart over the last 350
years and catch a glimpse of the artists who had their fingers on the
pulse of their America. Its quite a ride.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 10:27:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello Nick,
Since I am new to this group I will not immediately label you as a troll….maybe you have personal ‘issues’….maybe you are ‘challenged’…… or simply on DRUGS !
That’s okay…….let’s HUG !
There is a hidden side of me that just warms up to this stuff 😉
……Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thai proverb
Date: January 21, 2005 at 10:12:54 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thai proverb
“do good and receive good, do evil and receive evil”
Thai proverb 🙂
I’m sorry……you must mean ‘tum sing dee di dee, tum sing lii di lii’.
I think we have ignition Houston !
Chok di (good luck … in Thai)
….Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: ….Ken
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Ken !
You wrote
Well, for one thing…..I hope, to dear belzebub, you never says gawd bless to me again. Please note that belzebub is in lower case. ….also…please insert a smiley face here……and a bleedin’ hug if necessary….see, Iam learning.
* I don’t wan,t with my blessing to bore ( in the sens of drilling ) the living shit out of you, as you will say 🙂
Infortunately for me , it’s like an habit like people will say ; ” have a good day !! ” Even if I want absolutely to have a bad day, I can’t stop the bleeding assholes of wishing me : Bonne journee . That used to pissed me off. It’s like the fucking ” Salam Aleikum ” Peace upon you . Who told the freaking arabs that I wanted to have peace, anyway ?/!
Is like when you put at the end of your E-mail ; Regards. That use realy to piss me off and ruin my day !!
Regards:from the french regarder : consideration, kindly feeling, heed, to guard.
It’s almost like the Bless thing : to consacrate, make holy !
I never understood why people have to wish me well. That was a mystery for me …What about this persistence at wishing well to everybody and everywhere ?/!
Salve
Allah Akbar !
Now, that was a good post !
I quite appreciated it.
Non lap fun dee (pleasant dreams)
…..Ken
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Patrick you’re in another book
Date: January 21, 2005 at 8:54:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick, from my college bookstore 🙂
Hip: The History
by John Leland
Your quotes open one of his sections, you’ve got 9 or 10 pages, you,
Legion of Doom, secret service, how it connects to the Yippies, ending
with you in Florida, heroin addiction and ibogaine.
Another fine job of tying it all together 🙂
Congrats, in his closing White Niggers, he’s got you with Dylan, Mark
Twain and compares you to modern day Jesse James 🙂 Love you Patrick,
but I’m not typing in all those pages, I’m sure he sent you a copy
anyway.
You’re a beautiful psycho 🙂
I’ll type one sentence for you 🙂 Give me email already!
“The hip antihero gathers no moss. We think of Dylan, Huck or Sal, or
Jesse James, or Lord Digital, as traveling through a world with no
baggage. Reinventing themselves on the road.”
“What is missing from this story is what the travelers bring back to us
when they arrive. Along with their own unique epiphanies, the road
warriors also transport ideas and knowledge from one place to another.
Their adventures, in turn, seduce other travelers into motion.”
.:vector:.
The proper way to read this book is of course, from the back. Checking
to see if your name is in the index. If it’s not in there (and let’s
face it, what are the chances?) my apologies. For some reason your hang
time at the Six Gallery, or Northsix in Williamsburg, your matted coif
and ironic eyeglasses, your collection of final vinyl and Burroughs
first-editions, has escaped everyone’s notice but your own. Probably
the hip guy you knew in high school, or wish you were, or the ghost you
passed at the needle exchange, didn’t make it into this book either.
Hip is an elusive thing and sometimes must be its own reward.
If you are in the index, another sort of apology is in order. This is
not a conventional history, faithfully reporting the experiences of
people who lived it. Instead, it is a history of public perception,
which by its nature is sometimes awry. Its distortions are part of what
makes hip.
If you think of Thelonious Monk or Miles Davis onstage, or Rakim
writing rhymes in Long Island, Jay Z in the Bronx, you might think they
are thinking very hip thoughts, but it is their imagination and the
actions that people who are seduced by it take, that form hip’s course.
Hip is romanticism, not a catalog of facts.
Hip is about people who cause waves that ripple through the big pond,
it is not a suggestion to follow in their footsteps and become the next
Neal Cassady, freezing to death in a ditch in Mexico after a
methamphetmine induced heart attack. Yet Neal Cassady, along with Jim
Carroll and Bob Dylan, will always belong in hip’s cannon.
In truth far too many of the celebrated figures in these pages led
melancholy and difficult lives of isolation, mental illness and drug
addiction. Interesting and romantic to read about, but very tough on
those who live them.
In the words of Ice-T, don’t hate the player, hate the game. As the
saying goes those who can, do. Those who can’t, purchased this book.
This book takes the reader on a remarkable journey from 17th century
plantations to 21st century Williamsburg, Brooklyn. On route, we meet
America’s greatest hipsters- people who used language and manipulated
the forces around them to transform society, from Mark Twain to
Muhammed Ali, from Charlie Parker to Richard Hell. Leland draws a
family tree linking the most influential cultural movements across
generations, detailing not only how the unique American experience
begat our cultural icons, but how, in turn, those enlightened
individuals have shaped the world around them, our world.
“Hip: A History” is sufficiently thorough and analytical to read like a
textbook of American cultural history. But its much more than that.
Leland’s narratives put us right in the middle of some of the most
provocative scenes: minstrel shows, the beats, bebops, early hip-hop
and grafetti art, to name a few. You may not always agree with Leland
about what is hip; that’s part of the fun. But get on board for this
trip across the racial, ethnic, geographic, economic and cultural
divide that has brought us together and torn us apart over the last 350
years and catch a glimpse of the artists who had their fingers on the
pulse of their America. Its quite a ride.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “walt denton” <wally1@willitsonline.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 8:07:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick,
Unless you have suffered serious mental deterioration since my last association with
the list a few years ago I KNOW you are not as obtuse as you present yourself here.
Walt D.
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 21 January 2005 17:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Date: January 21, 2005 at 7:56:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hannah,
You wrote :
I saw a friend today who I
used to score with and I know he still does. Immediately I very nearly
asked him to score for me. I don’t know why, it was totally on
impulse-association I guess
Don’t worry this is an anchor : you had a visual, auditive stimulation that
trigger the desire to score.
Sometimes the tought of using will comes from nowhere like a bird in the
sky: let it pass and don’t let the bird nest in your head 🙂
Talking about ” anchor ” I found a place where the concept of anchor is well
explain :
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/neurological-2.html
Actualy, the good news is that you can create your own “anchors”
# confidence
# Excelence and so on
NlP are very powerful tools for change.
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Thanks so much for the support Francis. I will definitely use your
technique. I’ve been trying use visualisation to help my depression and
lack of self-confidence. I do find it difficult though-maybe it was the
drugs?-but I find imagining hard now, picturing something in my head.
Especially me as a wonderful self-confident woman!!! 😉
I’ll keep you all updated. I still can’t face going through my backlog of
messages so I don’t know what else is going on! I saw a friend today who
I
used to score with and I know he still does. Immediately I very nearly
asked him to score for me. I don’t know why, it was totally on
impulse-association I guess. I just forget why I’m doing this
immediately!
Luckily my brain is starting to act more quickly and so I never said
anything….and you know what? 5 minutes later after I’d left the guy I
was
SO glad I didn’t score! Its like all my rational thoughts suddenly
reappeared.
I have a long way to go before I’m over it but the first steps are the
hardest and I hope it gets easier. Most of the time I’m so busy doing uni
reading or walking my dog or actually socialising (with clean or
understanding friends) I don’t even think about it.
Yes I’m scared but I just have to get through it-I couldn’t go on as I
was.
I would more likely be dead or else locked up!
Thanks again,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Hi Hannah !
I am really happy to see how good you are doing 🙂
Regarding anxiety, in my humble opinion. Anxiety is there to tell you
something.
Like a pain in the back is telling you wich movement you have to avoid
to
hurt yourself more.
Now, I give you an example: a young child learning how to walk. Is at
the
bottom of a long stairway.
He realy want to go upstair, like everybody else.But now is paralysed by
fear, is full of self doubt, he had a strange feeling somewhere in his
guts,
a kind of disconfort that later , as an adult he will label :anxiety.
Do you think he can make it ?/!
I am learning now something I realy don’t like to do but that I want to
do
it ,and…, and this is producing in me some
(or a lot , I do I know ?/!) of” anxiety “.
Actualy, I am not even sure that this is anxiety. Somebody told me…
I call it fear and I am not even sure this is fear..
To make a long story short. When this “thing ” comes I like to play with
it
( a friend teach me this technique )
First you welcome the “thing”.like ” hi !! welcome back, would like a
cup
of
tea ?” ” So wat’s up ? ”
Then you try hard to intensify the feeling to the max. then try to
reduce
it. then try to make it big, realy big, intense…..Then you visualize
it
outside of you, then inside… so on and so on..
The “thing” realy don’t like to be play with and will leave you.
It’s normal to feel a little bet of disconfort at the begining of a
new,
great, adventure, but that the deal. You have to go throught the pain
and
no
pill in the world will do the job for you.We have to win our own battle
one
step at the time..
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hello Hannah,
The anxiety is rough. Have you tried ‘clonidine’ ? You will need a
‘script.
Do some on line research first to see if you think it is worthwhile
for
you.
It lowers the blood pressure and it helped me through some rough
times.
best regards…..Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
I must be really quick cuz I have to go to bed cuz I’m up early in
the
morning. Basically I’ve been busy keeping clean ( :-)))) and my
PC’s
been
down for ages. I have 624 messages from the list to work through
and
dunno
when I’ll get round to it! Hope everybody’s ok and happy? I’ve
been
up
and
down. I’ve dabbled so I guess I’m not clean but I FEEL clean! It
doesn’t
rule my life anymore though I still unfortunately have a few
problems
with
people from the scene. I feel like its ages since I had any but now
I
see
it was only 8 days ago but only a tiny bit. Put it like this-in the
past
4.5wks I’ve had it 4 times n that’s AMAZING for me. Today I was
unfortunate
enough to have to sit in a room with people doing it but I felt
NOTHING!
Its like I can see rationally again. And when I have slipped its
been
small
amounts and each time I’ve instantly regretted it. I’m down from
8mg
to
2mg
of Subutex a day. It feels like its been months! I don’t want
anymore
though I’m taking it one day at a time. Most people don’t know but
even
those that don’t have said how much happier and healthier I look.
I’m
still
cut up about being dumped from my 3yr relationship but I’m used to
it
now
and enjoying the freedom-my flat’s never been so tidy! Now there’s
no
man
to mess it up as soon as I’ve cleaned it! 😉 I said I was gonna be
quick
and I really must go. I’m working on my self-confidence and just
started
my
Open University course so I can finally complete the last 2yrs of my
BSc
Psychology degree! I’m very poor on benefits and trying to pay rent
alone
etc but compared to when I was doing gear I’m rich! I can’t believe
all
the
money I threw away (or shot up my veins)-now I can see how much £25
actually
buys you! I can’t believe I was spending hundreds some days! I was
getting
badly into crack aswell so really my boyf did the best thing.
Without
him
judging me and making me feel ashamed I’m a totally different
person.
I’ve
met loads of new (clean) friends and now actually have a social
life!
I
walk my dog miles each day and I’m getting back into my Yoga and
trying
to
eat healthily. I am taking the odd Valium tough, probably 3 a
week-will
this become a problem? Its just I still get periods of intense
despair
and
anxiety, especially about starting my course and they really help.
I
don’t
want to abuse them though, just use them if I really need them.
This
is
turning into an essay! I’ve missed you guys so much and always
wondered
how
you’re all doing. I’ll probably have to put a couple of days aside
to
get
through this backlog! Oh and my friend is training in Reflexology
so
I
get
that weekly too!
Now I really must go! I just wanted to share the good news. Its
doesn’t
sound so great on paper but it honestly feels like months to me! I
grow
stronger every day and suddenly I have a future!
Thanks for caring,
Loads and loads of love to you all,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hi Hannah,
how are ya, girl? Haven’t heard from you in a
while…wondering how yer doin’?
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: “L.J.” <lj76@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] unsubscruibe
Date: January 21, 2005 at 4:25:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
unsubscribe me please
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 – Release Date: 3/01/2005
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Huge amount of ibogaine press
Date: January 21, 2005 at 4:17:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
New mechanism of action?
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18524834.200
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18524834.200
http://www.psycport.com/showArticle.cfm?xmlFile=comtex_2005_01_18_up_0000-4408-b
c-us-ibogaine.ew.xml&provider=United%20Press%20International
http://www.betterhumans.com/News/news.aspx?articleID=2005-01-18-6
These are the first 3 hits, there are alot more then this and not all
of them are the same article, they’re the same story re written.
You can find them on yahoo or google in the News section
http://news.google.com/news?q=ibogaine
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=ibogaine
.:vector:.
African herb yields its anti-addiction secret
22 January 2005
From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
Bob Holmes
More Health Stories
African herb yields its anti-addiction secret
Explore: health
THE secret of an African herb that helps drug addicts and alcoholics
kick
the habit has been discovered. The finding could lead to safer and more
effective medications for treating addiction.
Since the 1960s, many addicts have reported that even a single dose of
ibogaine, a hallucinogenic alkaloid extracted from the root of an
African
shrub, helps them kick their habit by reducing their cravings for
drugs.
And there is hard evidence to back these claims, as well. However,
troubling side effects – including heart problems and several deaths –
have kept ibogaine from being widely accepted as a medical treatment.
Instead, a few researchers have begun searching for ways to deliver
ibogaine’s benefits without its risks (New Scientist, 26 April 2003, p
34).
A few previous studies have suggested that becoming addicted to a
substance lowers the production of a nerve growth factor called glial
cell-line derived neurotrophic factor, or GDNF. So Dorit Ron’s team at
the
University of California, San Francisco, decided to test whether
ibogaine
affects GDNF levels in the brain.
In rats injected with ibogaine, the researchers found that production
of
GDNF increased in a region of the brain called the ventral tegmental
area.
What’s more, injecting either ibogaine or GDNF itself directly into
this
brain area decreased alcohol cravings in addicted rats, whereas
injecting
anti-GDNF antibodies eliminated any beneficial effect of ibogaine. The
results appear in The Journal of Neuroscience.
“The paper looks very solid,” says Stanley Glick, a neuropharmacologist
at
Albany Medical Center in New York, who has studied ibogaine for many
years. “They may indeed be on to a major finding.” However, both Glick
and
Ron point out that boosting GDNF may be only one of several mechanisms
by
which ibogaine acts to ease addiction.
A synthetic ibogaine compound, 18-methoxycoronaridine, which Glick has
shown can help addicts with fewer harmful side effects than ibogaine,
may
also work by controlling GDNF levels. In preliminary studies with
cultured
nerve cells, Ron’s team found that 18-MC also raises GDNF levels.
But the team is not pursuing the ibogaine approach. Instead, Ron thinks
it
is time to narrow her focus. “Our idea now is to move away from
ibogaine
and concentrate on GDNF,” she says. Her team plans to look for ways to
stimulate GDNF without side effects.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: Skeen410@cs.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] unsubscruibe
Date: January 21, 2005 at 4:13:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
unsubscribe me please
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Date: January 21, 2005 at 3:50:44 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks so much for the support Francis. I will definitely use your
technique. I’ve been trying use visualisation to help my depression and
lack of self-confidence. I do find it difficult though-maybe it was the
drugs?-but I find imagining hard now, picturing something in my head.
Especially me as a wonderful self-confident woman!!! 😉
I’ll keep you all updated. I still can’t face going through my backlog of
messages so I don’t know what else is going on! I saw a friend today who I
used to score with and I know he still does. Immediately I very nearly
asked him to score for me. I don’t know why, it was totally on
impulse-association I guess. I just forget why I’m doing this immediately!
Luckily my brain is starting to act more quickly and so I never said
anything….and you know what? 5 minutes later after I’d left the guy I was
SO glad I didn’t score! Its like all my rational thoughts suddenly
reappeared.
I have a long way to go before I’m over it but the first steps are the
hardest and I hope it gets easier. Most of the time I’m so busy doing uni
reading or walking my dog or actually socialising (with clean or
understanding friends) I don’t even think about it.
Yes I’m scared but I just have to get through it-I couldn’t go on as I was.
I would more likely be dead or else locked up!
Thanks again,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Hi Hannah !
I am really happy to see how good you are doing 🙂
Regarding anxiety, in my humble opinion. Anxiety is there to tell you
something.
Like a pain in the back is telling you wich movement you have to avoid to
hurt yourself more.
Now, I give you an example: a young child learning how to walk. Is at the
bottom of a long stairway.
He realy want to go upstair, like everybody else.But now is paralysed by
fear, is full of self doubt, he had a strange feeling somewhere in his
guts,
a kind of disconfort that later , as an adult he will label :anxiety.
Do you think he can make it ?/!
I am learning now something I realy don’t like to do but that I want to do
it ,and…, and this is producing in me some
(or a lot , I do I know ?/!) of” anxiety “.
Actualy, I am not even sure that this is anxiety. Somebody told me…
I call it fear and I am not even sure this is fear..
To make a long story short. When this “thing ” comes I like to play with
it
( a friend teach me this technique )
First you welcome the “thing”.like ” hi !! welcome back, would like a cup
of
tea ?” ” So wat’s up ? ”
Then you try hard to intensify the feeling to the max. then try to reduce
it. then try to make it big, realy big, intense…..Then you visualize it
outside of you, then inside… so on and so on..
The “thing” realy don’t like to be play with and will leave you.
It’s normal to feel a little bet of disconfort at the begining of a new,
great, adventure, but that the deal. You have to go throught the pain and
no
pill in the world will do the job for you.We have to win our own battle
one
step at the time..
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hello Hannah,
The anxiety is rough. Have you tried ‘clonidine’ ? You will need a
‘script.
Do some on line research first to see if you think it is worthwhile for
you.
It lowers the blood pressure and it helped me through some rough times.
best regards…..Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
I must be really quick cuz I have to go to bed cuz I’m up early in the
morning. Basically I’ve been busy keeping clean ( :-)))) and my PC’s
been
down for ages. I have 624 messages from the list to work through and
dunno
when I’ll get round to it! Hope everybody’s ok and happy? I’ve been
up
and
down. I’ve dabbled so I guess I’m not clean but I FEEL clean! It
doesn’t
rule my life anymore though I still unfortunately have a few problems
with
people from the scene. I feel like its ages since I had any but now I
see
it was only 8 days ago but only a tiny bit. Put it like this-in the
past
4.5wks I’ve had it 4 times n that’s AMAZING for me. Today I was
unfortunate
enough to have to sit in a room with people doing it but I felt
NOTHING!
Its like I can see rationally again. And when I have slipped its been
small
amounts and each time I’ve instantly regretted it. I’m down from 8mg
to
2mg
of Subutex a day. It feels like its been months! I don’t want
anymore
though I’m taking it one day at a time. Most people don’t know but
even
those that don’t have said how much happier and healthier I look. I’m
still
cut up about being dumped from my 3yr relationship but I’m used to it
now
and enjoying the freedom-my flat’s never been so tidy! Now there’s no
man
to mess it up as soon as I’ve cleaned it! 😉 I said I was gonna be
quick
and I really must go. I’m working on my self-confidence and just
started
my
Open University course so I can finally complete the last 2yrs of my
BSc
Psychology degree! I’m very poor on benefits and trying to pay rent
alone
etc but compared to when I was doing gear I’m rich! I can’t believe
all
the
money I threw away (or shot up my veins)-now I can see how much £25
actually
buys you! I can’t believe I was spending hundreds some days! I was
getting
badly into crack aswell so really my boyf did the best thing. Without
him
judging me and making me feel ashamed I’m a totally different person.
I’ve
met loads of new (clean) friends and now actually have a social life!
I
walk my dog miles each day and I’m getting back into my Yoga and
trying
to
eat healthily. I am taking the odd Valium tough, probably 3 a
week-will
this become a problem? Its just I still get periods of intense
despair
and
anxiety, especially about starting my course and they really help. I
don’t
want to abuse them though, just use them if I really need them. This
is
turning into an essay! I’ve missed you guys so much and always
wondered
how
you’re all doing. I’ll probably have to put a couple of days aside to
get
through this backlog! Oh and my friend is training in Reflexology so
I
get
that weekly too!
Now I really must go! I just wanted to share the good news. Its
doesn’t
sound so great on paper but it honestly feels like months to me! I
grow
stronger every day and suddenly I have a future!
Thanks for caring,
Loads and loads of love to you all,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hi Hannah,
how are ya, girl? Haven’t heard from you in a
while…wondering how yer doin’?
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah/Naltrexone
Date: January 21, 2005 at 3:09:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
🙂 I look forward to hearing it! Still going good. I’m coming off my
Subbies quite quick but havn’t felt bad really. (Good!) I think I’m gonna
get a Naltrexone script after (the clinic would sort it all out). All I
know is it really helped my mate stay clean as he knew there was no point to
doing gear when he got cravings. But then I know someone else who has the
implant and he just learnt he could get over its blocking capabilities! I’m
gonna take the last 1mg down to nothing really slow though, stretching out
the days in between when I can’t make it any smaller. I’ve been on it a
year you see but I didn’t always take it. What do you lot think of
Naltrexone?
Just an example of how crap hospitals are-my psychiatrist as referred me
both to a Pschlogist and a Psychtherapist (apparently I havn’t delt with
stuff from the past, bad things that happened to me, gear hid it) But the
waiting lists are 1 year and 1 and a half years!!! I do get counselling in
the meantime.
Shit i’ve just seen thw time! Gotta go. Good to hear your voice (?) Randy
🙂
Loads of love, hope and faith, Hannah.
—– Original Message —–
From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hannah, it is so good to see you back on the list. I was worried about
you.
Now you are giving me the happy ending I was looking for so I can finish
the
lyrics for your song. It’s kind of ballad rock with a twist. Keep up the
good
work. Randy
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thai proverb
Date: January 21, 2005 at 2:09:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“do good and receive good, do evil and receive evil”
Thai proverb 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: ….Ken
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Ken !
You wrote
Well, for one thing…..I hope, to dear belzebub, you never says gawd bless to me again. Please note that belzebub is in lower case. ….also…please insert a smiley face here……and a bleedin’ hug if necessary….see, Iam learning.
* I don’t wan,t with my blessing to bore ( in the sens of drilling ) the living shit out of you, as you will say 🙂
Infortunately for me , it’s like an habit like people will say ; ” have a good day !! ” Even if I want absolutely to have a bad day, I can’t stop the bleeding assholes of wishing me : Bonne journee . That used to pissed me off. It’s like the fucking ” Salam Aleikum ” Peace upon you . Who told the freaking arabs that I wanted to have peace, anyway ?/!
Is like when you put at the end of your E-mail ; Regards. That use realy to piss me off and ruin my day !!
Regards:from the french regarder : consideration, kindly feeling, heed, to guard.
It’s almost like the Bless thing : to consacrate, make holy !
I never understood why people have to wish me well. That was a mystery for me …What about this persistence at wishing well to everybody and everywhere ?/!
Salve
Allah Akbar !
Now, that was a good post !
I quite appreciated it.
Non lap fun dee (pleasant dreams)
…..Ken
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 1:42:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 21 January 2005 17:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
Hey Ken,
Look, maybe it’s me but I’m still have trouble following exactly what it is you want. How about I go through it bit by bit and you can set me straight if needed –
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years.
OK, this bit I get.
I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience.
OK, so you’ve given ibogaine extract to people. Yes? And you want to take drugs which are not opiates? Something you haven’t done much of before?
This interest is not for myself personally,
Now I get confused. You don’t want to take these drugs for yourself? Is that right?
but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
You want to gain experience from listening to other list-members about how suitable ibogaine is for various addictions? Is this it?
Grateful for any more light, from yourself, or anyone else if I’m simply missing something obvious here.
Hope you’re doing good.
Nick
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah. Anxiety
Date: January 21, 2005 at 1:32:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Hannah !
I am really happy to see how good you are doing 🙂
Regarding anxiety, in my humble opinion. Anxiety is there to tell you
something.
Like a pain in the back is telling you wich movement you have to avoid to
hurt yourself more.
Now, I give you an example: a young child learning how to walk. Is at the
bottom of a long stairway.
He realy want to go upstair, like everybody else.But now is paralysed by
fear, is full of self doubt, he had a strange feeling somewhere in his guts,
a kind of disconfort that later , as an adult he will label :anxiety.
Do you think he can make it ?/!
I am learning now something I realy don’t like to do but that I want to do
it ,and…, and this is producing in me some
(or a lot , I do I know ?/!) of” anxiety “.
Actualy, I am not even sure that this is anxiety. Somebody told me…
I call it fear and I am not even sure this is fear..
To make a long story short. When this “thing ” comes I like to play with it
( a friend teach me this technique )
First you welcome the “thing”.like ” hi !! welcome back, would like a cup of
tea ?” ” So wat’s up ? ”
Then you try hard to intensify the feeling to the max. then try to reduce
it. then try to make it big, realy big, intense…..Then you visualize it
outside of you, then inside… so on and so on..
The “thing” realy don’t like to be play with and will leave you.
It’s normal to feel a little bet of disconfort at the begining of a new,
great, adventure, but that the deal. You have to go throught the pain and no
pill in the world will do the job for you.We have to win our own battle one
step at the time..
Francis
God bless
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hello Hannah,
The anxiety is rough. Have you tried ‘clonidine’ ? You will need a
‘script.
Do some on line research first to see if you think it is worthwhile for
you.
It lowers the blood pressure and it helped me through some rough times.
best regards…..Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
I must be really quick cuz I have to go to bed cuz I’m up early in the
morning. Basically I’ve been busy keeping clean ( :-)))) and my PC’s
been
down for ages. I have 624 messages from the list to work through and
dunno
when I’ll get round to it! Hope everybody’s ok and happy? I’ve been up
and
down. I’ve dabbled so I guess I’m not clean but I FEEL clean! It
doesn’t
rule my life anymore though I still unfortunately have a few problems
with
people from the scene. I feel like its ages since I had any but now I
see
it was only 8 days ago but only a tiny bit. Put it like this-in the
past
4.5wks I’ve had it 4 times n that’s AMAZING for me. Today I was
unfortunate
enough to have to sit in a room with people doing it but I felt NOTHING!
Its like I can see rationally again. And when I have slipped its been
small
amounts and each time I’ve instantly regretted it. I’m down from 8mg to
2mg
of Subutex a day. It feels like its been months! I don’t want anymore
though I’m taking it one day at a time. Most people don’t know but even
those that don’t have said how much happier and healthier I look. I’m
still
cut up about being dumped from my 3yr relationship but I’m used to it
now
and enjoying the freedom-my flat’s never been so tidy! Now there’s no
man
to mess it up as soon as I’ve cleaned it! 😉 I said I was gonna be
quick
and I really must go. I’m working on my self-confidence and just
started
my
Open University course so I can finally complete the last 2yrs of my BSc
Psychology degree! I’m very poor on benefits and trying to pay rent
alone
etc but compared to when I was doing gear I’m rich! I can’t believe all
the
money I threw away (or shot up my veins)-now I can see how much £25
actually
buys you! I can’t believe I was spending hundreds some days! I was
getting
badly into crack aswell so really my boyf did the best thing. Without
him
judging me and making me feel ashamed I’m a totally different person.
I’ve
met loads of new (clean) friends and now actually have a social life! I
walk my dog miles each day and I’m getting back into my Yoga and trying
to
eat healthily. I am taking the odd Valium tough, probably 3 a week-will
this become a problem? Its just I still get periods of intense despair
and
anxiety, especially about starting my course and they really help. I
don’t
want to abuse them though, just use them if I really need them. This is
turning into an essay! I’ve missed you guys so much and always wondered
how
you’re all doing. I’ll probably have to put a couple of days aside to
get
through this backlog! Oh and my friend is training in Reflexology so I
get
that weekly too!
Now I really must go! I just wanted to share the good news. Its
doesn’t
sound so great on paper but it honestly feels like months to me! I grow
stronger every day and suddenly I have a future!
Thanks for caring,
Loads and loads of love to you all,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hi Hannah,
how are ya, girl? Haven’t heard from you in a
while…wondering how yer doin’?
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: Martin Steldinger <tribble@hanfplantage.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibongaine conference in february
Date: January 21, 2005 at 6:20:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi there,
i’d like to know if there are some recordings planned for the panels on the ibogaine conference in february in new york. It would be really cool to get some mp3′ downloads from it…. Its a long way over the ocean..
read you,
t.
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 12:57:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Ken !
You wrote
Well, for one thing…..I hope, to dear belzebub, you never says gawd bless to me again. Please note that belzebub is in lower case. ….also…please insert a smiley face here……and a bleedin’ hug if necessary….see, Iam learning.
* I don’t wan,t with my blessing to bore ( in the sens of drilling ) the living shit out of you, as you will say 🙂
Infortunately for me , it’s like an habit like people will say ; ” have a good day !! ” Even if I want absolutely to have a bad day, I can’t stop the bleeding assholes of wishing me : Bonne journee . That used to pissed me off. It’s like the fucking ” Salam Aleikum ” Peace upon you . Who told the freaking arabs that I wanted to have peace, anyway ?/!
Is like when you put at the end of your E-mail ; Regards. That use realy to piss me off and ruin my day !!
Regards:from the french regarder : consideration, kindly feeling, heed, to guard.
It’s almost like the Bless thing : to consacrate, make holy !
I never understood why people have to wish me well. That was a mystery for me …What about this persistence at wishing well to everybody and everywhere ?/!
Salve
Allah Akbar !
Now, that was a good post !
I quite appreciated it.
Non lap fun dee (pleasant dreams)
…..Ken
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 12:51:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
HI Ken
As you have had 3 self administerd ibogaine experiences would you recommend it to others wishing to be free from drugs or drink??????????????????????
Love Donna
Hi Donna,
Well, certainly for H and methadone. I believe that you have to reduce your methdone as much as possible before hand. It seems to have a more tenacious hold than H.. Ibogaine for alcohol………I do not know. Harold and others would certainly be more informed than I. My concern with alcoholics is their general health.
Has anyone here used ibogaine successfully for chronic alcoholism ?
regards….Ken
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 12:43:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
Hello Nick,
Yet another emotionally demonstrative person.
No, I am not seeking help. As mentioned in another post I am an advocate of ibogaine and have been so for ten years. I have facilitated the use of ibogaine extract and interested in first hand experiences with drugs other than opioids…..which I have little experience. This interest is not for myself personally, but whether it is appropriate to reccomend a person with ….say, chronic methamphetamine use to self administer ibogaine.
This forum has changed considerably from its early years.
regards……Ken
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 21 January 2005 04:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
Hi Ken
Sorry to ask you this silly question , but
What are you exactly expecting from this list ?
God bless
Francis
Hello Francis,
Well, for one thing…..I hope, to dear belzebub, you never says gawd bless to me again. Please note that belzebub is in lower case. ….also…please insert a smiley face here……and a bleedin’ hug if necessary….see, Iam learning.
What I would like to discuss is pragmatic details of the use of ibogaine in eliminating physical addiction and addictive behaviour regarding opioids,alcohol and stimulants. As I have mentioned, I can wax poetic regarding my own experiences regarding ibogaines radical success in eliminating both my physical addiction as well as my addictive behaviour (opiates) however, I would like to hear of the unsuccessful attempts and try to understand why.
I would also like to hear first hand accounts of ibogaines effectiveness with stimulants such as methamphetamine.
Ibogaine is a rather fantastic chemical combination.
regards…..Ken
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] z00m
Date: January 21, 2005 at 12:03:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Above.net faw down, go boOm, hurt itself, at roughly 1AM EST.
Back. All good.
Patrick
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] TesT I
Date: January 21, 2005 at 12:01:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
. doT
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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@sacrament.kibla.si>
Subject: [Ibogaine] TesT II
Date: January 21, 2005 at 12:02:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@wiretap.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] TesT III
Date: January 21, 2005 at 12:02:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
doT .
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 11:54:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ken !
You wrote
Well, for one thing…..I hope, to dear belzebub, you never says gawd bless to me again. Please note that belzebub is in lower case. ….also…please insert a smiley face here……and a bleedin’ hug if necessary….see, Iam learning.
* I don’t wan,t with my blessing to bore ( in the sens of drilling ) the living shit out of you, as you will say 🙂
Infortunately for me , it’s like an habit like people will say ; ” have a good day !! ” Even if I want absolutely to have a bad day, I can’t stop the bleeding assholes of wishing me : Bonne journee . That used to pissed me off. It’s like the fucking ” Salam Aleikum ” Peace upon you . Who told the freaking arabs that I wanted to have peace, anyway ?/!
Is like when you put at the end of your E-mail ; Regards. That use realy to piss me off and ruin my day !!
Regards:from the french regarder : consideration, kindly feeling, heed, to guard.
It’s almost like the Bless thing : to consacrate, make holy !
I never understood why people have to wish me well. That was a mystery for me …What about this persistence at wishing well to everybody and everywhere ?/!
Salve
—– Original Message —–
From: ….Ken
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
Hi Ken
Sorry to ask you this silly question , but
What are you exactly expecting from this list ?
God bless
Francis
Hello Francis,
Well, for one thing…..I hope, to dear belzebub, you never says gawd bless to me again. Please note that belzebub is in lower case. ….also…please insert a smiley face here……and a bleedin’ hug if necessary….see, Iam learning.
What I would like to discuss is pragmatic details of the use of ibogaine in eliminating physical addiction and addictive behaviour regarding opioids,alcohol and stimulants. As I have mentioned, I can wax poetic regarding my own experiences regarding ibogaines radical success in eliminating both my physical addiction as well as my addictive behaviour (opiates) however, I would like to hear of the unsuccessful attempts and try to understand why.
I would also like to hear first hand accounts of ibogaines effectiveness with stimulants such as methamphetamine.
Ibogaine is a rather fantastic chemical combination.
regards…..Ken
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 11:33:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
HI Ken
As you have had 3 self administerd ibogaine experiences would you recommend it to others wishing to be free from drugs or drink??????????????????????
Love Donna
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 21, 2005 at 6:48:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Ken,
I’m also having a little trouble understanding what your needs are from the list. Are you presenting yourself as someone seeking help, or someone offering it? Would you care to share more about your ibogaine experiences, perhaps? My gut instinct, with therapist hat on, is that you are seeking help but somewhere unsure how to ask for it.
Would love to hear more.
with love
Nick Sandberg www.ibogaine.co.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Sent: 21 January 2005 04:27
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
Hi Ken
Sorry to ask you this silly question , but
What are you exactly expecting from this list ?
God bless
Francis
Hello Francis,
Well, for one thing…..I hope, to dear belzebub, you never says gawd bless to me again. Please note that belzebub is in lower case. ….also…please insert a smiley face here……and a bleedin’ hug if necessary….see, Iam learning.
What I would like to discuss is pragmatic details of the use of ibogaine in eliminating physical addiction and addictive behaviour regarding opioids,alcohol and stimulants. As I have mentioned, I can wax poetic regarding my own experiences regarding ibogaines radical success in eliminating both my physical addiction as well as my addictive behaviour (opiates) however, I would like to hear of the unsuccessful attempts and try to understand why.
I would also like to hear first hand accounts of ibogaines effectiveness with stimulants such as methamphetamine.
Ibogaine is a rather fantastic chemical combination.
regards…..Ken
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]test
Date: January 21, 2005 at 11:11:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
TEST TEST test TesT
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Date: January 21, 2005 at 11:15:46 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Hannah
Im so pleased you are doing so great!!!!!!!!!, an inspiration to me keep the attitude you have and you wont go wrong
love Donna
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Date: January 21, 2005 at 9:13:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hannah, it is so good to see you back on the list. I was worried about you.
Now you are giving me the happy ending I was looking for so I can finish the
lyrics for your song. It’s kind of ballad rock with a twist. Keep up the good
work. Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Date: January 20, 2005 at 11:34:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello Hannah,
The anxiety is rough. Have you tried ‘clonidine’ ? You will need a ‘script.
Do some on line research first to see if you think it is worthwhile for you.
It lowers the blood pressure and it helped me through some rough times.
best regards…..Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
I must be really quick cuz I have to go to bed cuz I’m up early in the
morning. Basically I’ve been busy keeping clean ( :-)))) and my PC’s been
down for ages. I have 624 messages from the list to work through and
dunno
when I’ll get round to it! Hope everybody’s ok and happy? I’ve been up
and
down. I’ve dabbled so I guess I’m not clean but I FEEL clean! It doesn’t
rule my life anymore though I still unfortunately have a few problems with
people from the scene. I feel like its ages since I had any but now I see
it was only 8 days ago but only a tiny bit. Put it like this-in the past
4.5wks I’ve had it 4 times n that’s AMAZING for me. Today I was
unfortunate
enough to have to sit in a room with people doing it but I felt NOTHING!
Its like I can see rationally again. And when I have slipped its been
small
amounts and each time I’ve instantly regretted it. I’m down from 8mg to
2mg
of Subutex a day. It feels like its been months! I don’t want anymore
though I’m taking it one day at a time. Most people don’t know but even
those that don’t have said how much happier and healthier I look. I’m
still
cut up about being dumped from my 3yr relationship but I’m used to it now
and enjoying the freedom-my flat’s never been so tidy! Now there’s no man
to mess it up as soon as I’ve cleaned it! 😉 I said I was gonna be quick
and I really must go. I’m working on my self-confidence and just started
my
Open University course so I can finally complete the last 2yrs of my BSc
Psychology degree! I’m very poor on benefits and trying to pay rent alone
etc but compared to when I was doing gear I’m rich! I can’t believe all
the
money I threw away (or shot up my veins)-now I can see how much £25
actually
buys you! I can’t believe I was spending hundreds some days! I was
getting
badly into crack aswell so really my boyf did the best thing. Without him
judging me and making me feel ashamed I’m a totally different person.
I’ve
met loads of new (clean) friends and now actually have a social life! I
walk my dog miles each day and I’m getting back into my Yoga and trying to
eat healthily. I am taking the odd Valium tough, probably 3 a week-will
this become a problem? Its just I still get periods of intense despair
and
anxiety, especially about starting my course and they really help. I
don’t
want to abuse them though, just use them if I really need them. This is
turning into an essay! I’ve missed you guys so much and always wondered
how
you’re all doing. I’ll probably have to put a couple of days aside to get
through this backlog! Oh and my friend is training in Reflexology so I
get
that weekly too!
Now I really must go! I just wanted to share the good news. Its doesn’t
sound so great on paper but it honestly feels like months to me! I grow
stronger every day and suddenly I have a future!
Thanks for caring,
Loads and loads of love to you all,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hi Hannah,
how are ya, girl? Haven’t heard from you in a
while…wondering how yer doin’?
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
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[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
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[%]
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 20, 2005 at 11:26:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
Hi Ken
Sorry to ask you this silly question , but
What are you exactly expecting from this list ?
God bless
Francis
Hello Francis,
Well, for one thing…..I hope, to dear belzebub, you never says gawd bless to me again. Please note that belzebub is in lower case. ….also…please insert a smiley face here……and a bleedin’ hug if necessary….see, Iam learning.
What I would like to discuss is pragmatic details of the use of ibogaine in eliminating physical addiction and addictive behaviour regarding opioids,alcohol and stimulants. As I have mentioned, I can wax poetic regarding my own experiences regarding ibogaines radical success in eliminating both my physical addiction as well as my addictive behaviour (opiates) however, I would like to hear of the unsuccessful attempts and try to understand why.
I would also like to hear first hand accounts of ibogaines effectiveness with stimulants such as methamphetamine.
Ibogaine is a rather fantastic chemical combination.
regards…..Ken
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Date: January 20, 2005 at 11:09:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
just started my Open University course so I can finally complete
the last 2yrs of my BSc Psychology degree!
That’s wonderful, Hannah! Congratulations!
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 20, 2005 at 11:08:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Three runs on the Ibogaine and I should …..what, want to hug YOU
?
That’s about the size of it, particularly so in Martee’s case. 🙂
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 20, 2005 at 10:50:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
There seems to be life in this group after all.
🙂 This is like someone who walks into a bar right after a big
shootout and says, “humph, it’s so quiet, this isn’t the wild west
I heard about.”
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] nail in the brain- how’d that get there?
Date: January 20, 2005 at 10:35:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Maybe everyone should check themselves for nails?
Reminds me of the story of Phineas Gage:
http://www.deakin.edu.au/hbs/GAGEPAGE/Pgstory.htm
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:51:15 -0800 Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
wrote:
This is a bit off topic for some of these lists, (and I apologize
for cross
posting if it bothers anyone) but I just had to forward this one
on to you
all:
Cause of Man’s Toothache? A 4-Inch Nail
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 17, 2005
LITTLETON, Colo., Jan. 16 (AP) – A dentist found the source of the
toothache
Patrick Lawler was complaining about on the roof of his mouth: a
four-inch
nail he had unknowingly embedded in his skull six days earlier.
snip-
How in the heck did this guy not know he’d shot himself in the
face? Egad.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=————————————————————–
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\]=————————————————————–
——-=[/
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Date: January 20, 2005 at 8:42:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
((((Hannah))))
That’s awesome news matey, 8 days is HUGE, you know that!! You sound
wonderful, thanx for sharing!!
Gives me hope
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Hannah Clay [mailto:hannah.clay@ntlworld.com]
Sent: Friday, 21 January 2005 1:35 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
I must be really quick cuz I have to go to bed cuz I’m up early in the
morning. Basically I’ve been busy keeping clean ( :-)))) and my PC’s been
down for ages. I have 624 messages from the list to work through and dunno
when I’ll get round to it! Hope everybody’s ok and happy? I’ve been up and
down. I’ve dabbled so I guess I’m not clean but I FEEL clean! It doesn’t
rule my life anymore though I still unfortunately have a few problems with
people from the scene. I feel like its ages since I had any but now I see
it was only 8 days ago but only a tiny bit. Put it like this-in the past
4.5wks I’ve had it 4 times n that’s AMAZING for me. Today I was unfortunate
enough to have to sit in a room with people doing it but I felt NOTHING!
Its like I can see rationally again. And when I have slipped its been small
amounts and each time I’ve instantly regretted it. I’m down from 8mg to 2mg
of Subutex a day. It feels like its been months! I don’t want anymore
though I’m taking it one day at a time. Most people don’t know but even
those that don’t have said how much happier and healthier I look. I’m still
cut up about being dumped from my 3yr relationship but I’m used to it now
and enjoying the freedom-my flat’s never been so tidy! Now there’s no man
to mess it up as soon as I’ve cleaned it! 😉 I said I was gonna be quick
and I really must go. I’m working on my self-confidence and just started my
Open University course so I can finally complete the last 2yrs of my BSc
Psychology degree! I’m very poor on benefits and trying to pay rent alone
etc but compared to when I was doing gear I’m rich! I can’t believe all the
money I threw away (or shot up my veins)-now I can see how much £25 actually
buys you! I can’t believe I was spending hundreds some days! I was getting
badly into crack aswell so really my boyf did the best thing. Without him
judging me and making me feel ashamed I’m a totally different person. I’ve
met loads of new (clean) friends and now actually have a social life! I
walk my dog miles each day and I’m getting back into my Yoga and trying to
eat healthily. I am taking the odd Valium tough, probably 3 a week-will
this become a problem? Its just I still get periods of intense despair and
anxiety, especially about starting my course and they really help. I don’t
want to abuse them though, just use them if I really need them. This is
turning into an essay! I’ve missed you guys so much and always wondered how
you’re all doing. I’ll probably have to put a couple of days aside to get
through this backlog! Oh and my friend is training in Reflexology so I get
that weekly too!
Now I really must go! I just wanted to share the good news. Its doesn’t
sound so great on paper but it honestly feels like months to me! I grow
stronger every day and suddenly I have a future!
Thanks for caring,
Loads and loads of love to you all,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hi Hannah,
how are ya, girl? Haven’t heard from you in a
while…wondering how yer doin’?
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Hannah Clay” <hannah.clay@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Date: January 20, 2005 at 7:34:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I must be really quick cuz I have to go to bed cuz I’m up early in the
morning. Basically I’ve been busy keeping clean ( :-)))) and my PC’s been
down for ages. I have 624 messages from the list to work through and dunno
when I’ll get round to it! Hope everybody’s ok and happy? I’ve been up and
down. I’ve dabbled so I guess I’m not clean but I FEEL clean! It doesn’t
rule my life anymore though I still unfortunately have a few problems with
people from the scene. I feel like its ages since I had any but now I see
it was only 8 days ago but only a tiny bit. Put it like this-in the past
4.5wks I’ve had it 4 times n that’s AMAZING for me. Today I was unfortunate
enough to have to sit in a room with people doing it but I felt NOTHING!
Its like I can see rationally again. And when I have slipped its been small
amounts and each time I’ve instantly regretted it. I’m down from 8mg to 2mg
of Subutex a day. It feels like its been months! I don’t want anymore
though I’m taking it one day at a time. Most people don’t know but even
those that don’t have said how much happier and healthier I look. I’m still
cut up about being dumped from my 3yr relationship but I’m used to it now
and enjoying the freedom-my flat’s never been so tidy! Now there’s no man
to mess it up as soon as I’ve cleaned it! 😉 I said I was gonna be quick
and I really must go. I’m working on my self-confidence and just started my
Open University course so I can finally complete the last 2yrs of my BSc
Psychology degree! I’m very poor on benefits and trying to pay rent alone
etc but compared to when I was doing gear I’m rich! I can’t believe all the
money I threw away (or shot up my veins)-now I can see how much £25 actually
buys you! I can’t believe I was spending hundreds some days! I was getting
badly into crack aswell so really my boyf did the best thing. Without him
judging me and making me feel ashamed I’m a totally different person. I’ve
met loads of new (clean) friends and now actually have a social life! I
walk my dog miles each day and I’m getting back into my Yoga and trying to
eat healthily. I am taking the odd Valium tough, probably 3 a week-will
this become a problem? Its just I still get periods of intense despair and
anxiety, especially about starting my course and they really help. I don’t
want to abuse them though, just use them if I really need them. This is
turning into an essay! I’ve missed you guys so much and always wondered how
you’re all doing. I’ll probably have to put a couple of days aside to get
through this backlog! Oh and my friend is training in Reflexology so I get
that weekly too!
Now I really must go! I just wanted to share the good news. Its doesn’t
sound so great on paper but it honestly feels like months to me! I grow
stronger every day and suddenly I have a future!
Thanks for caring,
Loads and loads of love to you all,
Hannah 🙂
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Hi Hannah,
how are ya, girl? Haven’t heard from you in a
while…wondering how yer doin’?
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 20, 2005 at 6:29:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ken
Sorry to ask you this silly question , but
What are you exactly expecting from this list ?
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: ….Ken
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
In a message dated 1/18/05 8:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, vector620022002@yahoo.com writes:
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three
> self
> administered ibogaine sessions…….and not interested in
> hugs……….am
> I looking at the wrong site?
>
> Advice appreciated……..Ken
Ken, we don’t HAVE to be touchy feely. We fuck with each other quite regularly here. Just let us know when we should give you shit, and I’m sure we can work it out. We haven’t had a sour ass here for a little while now. Randy
Hi Randy,
I was beginning to wonder….but, I am seeing now that you aren’t all refugees from a ‘hug fest’.
Nothing better than good, constructive, critical dialogue. Makes us a bit sharper. However, I do respect those who are going through a period in their life when they may be most fragile and need to hear supportive plattitudes.
I will tread more softly.
…….Ken
From: “mo” <mlo@ravemail.co.za>
Subject: [Ibogaine] unsubscruibe
Date: January 20, 2005 at 5:25:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
unsubscribe
_____________________________________________________________________
For super low premiums, click here http://www.dialdirect.co.za/quote
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 20, 2005 at 12:10:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
In a message dated 1/18/05 8:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, vector620022002@yahoo.com writes:
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three
> self
> administered ibogaine sessions…….and not interested in
> hugs……….am
> I looking at the wrong site?
>
> Advice appreciated……..Ken
Ken, we don’t HAVE to be touchy feely. We fuck with each other quite regularly here. Just let us know when we should give you shit, and I’m sure we can work it out. We haven’t had a sour ass here for a little while now. Randy
Hi Randy,
I was beginning to wonder….but, I am seeing now that you aren’t all refugees from a ‘hug fest’.
Nothing better than good, constructive, critical dialogue. Makes us a bit sharper. However, I do respect those who are going through a period in their life when they may be most fragile and need to hear supportive plattitudes.
I will tread more softly.
…….Ken
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 20, 2005 at 11:22:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/18/05 8:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, vector620022002@yahoo.com writes:
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three
> self
> administered ibogaine sessions…….and not interested in
> hugs……….am
> I looking at the wrong site?
>
> Advice appreciated……..Ken
Ken, we don’t HAVE to be touchy feely. We fuck with each other quite regularly here. Just let us know when we should give you shit, and I’m sure we can work it out. We haven’t had a sour ass here for a little while now. Randy
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: Caffeine story in National Geographic.
Date: January 20, 2005 at 10:35:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston!!
Thank you for this story. I am addicted to coffe and cig ( another seats on
the Titanic ) and I am planning to quit with Ibo
God bless
Francis
Dear Colleagues,
This month the National Geographic Magazine has a 30 page cover story on
caffeine which makes fascinating reading. Caffeine is the world’s most
popular drug, even eclipsing tobacco and alcohol.
The history of beverages, nuts and confection containing caffeine makes
quite a story, paralleling civilisation itself. Prior to the industrial
revolution there was little to be gained in keeping awake after dark.
Since
caffeine increases alertness, improves reflexes and reduces fatigue, it is
an ideal accompaniment to round-the-clock factory work. With few proven
side effects at normal doses, it would thus appear to be the ideal drug
for
the modern era.
After tea, coffee and cocoa, the latest incarnation is in ‘energy drinks’.
We are told that “Red Bull” was an Austrian invention which is now copied
all around the world. I recall seeing “Jolt” cola when in Japan over ten
years ago. Strangely, it is compulsory in many countries to state
contents
details on the label of most products, but tea, coffee and cola often
still
remain exempt from this requirement.
We are informed that dark chocolate contains up to three times as much
caffeine as milk chocolate and 12mg is a typical dose contained in a small
block. The article quotes a cup of brewed tea at 50mg, about the same as
a
single shot of espresso coffee. A 20oz (US) bottle of Coca-Cola has 57mg
caffeine while a small tin of Red Bull contains 80mg.
There is an exhaustive discussion of the benefits versus the potential
side
effects of the drug, including its use in pregnancy and in children. The
author’s conclusion on balance is parallel with the FDA, that the drug is
‘generally recognized as safe’ in doses of up to 300mg daily. However
they
sound a warning that ‘people who consume caffeine have higher rates of
kidney and bladder cancer, fibrocystic breast disease, pancreatic cancer
and
osteoporosis’ even if these are not necessarily causative. Nervousness,
panic attacks and temporary increases in blood pressure are also
occasional
associations of caffeine consumption.
Other interesting quotes: “The caffeine extracted from coffee beans to
make
‘decaf’ is sold to drug and soft drink manufacturers”. “Military studies
of
subjects who had not slept for 48 hours showed that 600mg of caffeine
improved alertness and mood as much as 20mg of amphetamine”. “The robusta
coffee beans used in less expensive brands contain almost twice as much
caffeine as the arabica beans favored by connoisseurs”. “Going without
caffeine for a day and a half increases blood flow in the brain which may
explain why people get headaches when they first give it up”. “Cigarette
smoking nearly doubles the rate at which the body metabolises caffeine”.
“Vietnam is now the world’s second largest coffee producer, yet is largely
a
nation of tea drinkers”.
See also http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2004/09_29_04.html
(Caffeine withdrawal recognised as DSM disorder).
comments by Andrew Byrne ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524 Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My grandfather Harry Gracie’s letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] reap/sow
Date: January 20, 2005 at 8:04:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
always liked a good detective story. thanx…M
—– Original Message —– From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:16 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] reap/sow
btw…he’s a cop.
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 20, 2005 at 3:59:43 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Excellent!!! I think it’s reading up about other people’s experiences and wanting the same thing that can hide the true therapy of what’s happening….we become disappointed and think that it didn’t work instead of working with it.
Would be nice to hear from her….how bout you plonk her down in front of the keyboard??
lol
From: Adam [mailto:keysers420@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, 20 January 2005 9:22 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Actualy she does seem to have a much more positive attitude and she wants to go out and get things done I think it it was a positive itermediat treetment
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/19/05 6:38:05 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
<< >One positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get
>by.. she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a
>week. <
Sounds like it wasn’t a total waste already. >>
More than not a total waste but, a highly successful intermediate treatment.
What is he mental state like at this time? Is she more comfortable with
herself, have a sense of wellbeing?
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 20, 2005 at 3:22:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Actualy she does seem to have a much more positive attitude and she wants to go out and get things done I think it it was a positive itermediat treetment
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/19/05 6:38:05 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
<< >One positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get
>by.. she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a
>week. <
Sounds like it wasn’t a total waste already. >>
More than not a total waste but, a highly successful intermediate treatment.
What is he mental state like at this time? Is she more comfortable with
herself, have a sense of wellbeing?
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Try it today!
From: “Vigilius Haufniensis” <thehatefulnerd@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine
Date: January 20, 2005 at 4:20:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Attorney Douglas Palaschak” <lawyerdude@adelphia.net>
To: <The_Lawyerdude@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:58 PM
Subject: [The_Lawyerdude] Ibogaine
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005030513,00.html
http://www.homosapiens.net/ibogaine/page/what.htm
By SUN ONLINE REPORTER
A TRIPPY drug taken by hippies could help cure alcoholics, scientists
believe.
Ibogaine, found in a West African shrub, became popular in the
Sixties because it caused vivid hallucinations.
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From: Robert Ray <robertray_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] please please unsubscribe me
Date: January 20, 2005 at 1:59:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Can anyone please give me a good address to unsubsubscribe from this lists?
Thank you,
R Ray
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] UK ibogaine atticle BBC
Date: January 20, 2005 at 1:37:23 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Howard,
Ibogaine is way too expensive to be used recreationally, if anyone like to
stay up all night and party there are better drugs to be used for that,
because Ibogaine is not a social drug but an introvert drug, makes no fun.
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2005 6:38
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] UK ibogaine atticle BBC
In a message dated 1/19/05 11:49:37 PM, captkirk@kol.co.nz writes:
<< Yeh, read that last night…..recreational use??? Does that really happen
or
is this article just a stab in the dark? >>
There may be a few people who approach ibogaine recreationally but, I do not
believe the relationship remains recreational. Ibogaine has a way of moving
away from that point.
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] UK ibogaine atticle BBC
Date: January 20, 2005 at 12:38:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/19/05 11:49:37 PM, captkirk@kol.co.nz writes:
<< Yeh, read that last night…..recreational use??? Does that really happen
or
is this article just a stab in the dark? >>
There may be a few people who approach ibogaine recreationally but, I do not
believe the relationship remains recreational. Ibogaine has a way of moving
away from that point.
Howard
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] UK ibogaine atticle BBC
Date: January 19, 2005 at 11:47:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeh, read that last night…..recreational use??? Does that really happen or
is this article just a stab in the dark?
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, 20 January 2005 3:14 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] UK ibogaine atticle BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4182233.stm
1960s drug ‘alcoholism cure hope’
A hallucinogenic drug popular in the 1960s could help scientists find a
medical treatment for alcoholism, US researchers believe.
A University of California team said ibogaine blocked alcohol cravings in
rats by boosting a brain protein.
It was already thought it could combat addiction, but scientists have been
wary as the drug is also toxic.
It is hoped a treatment which works in the same way as ibogaine but without
the side effects could be developed.
Ibogaine
It causes hallucinations as well a feeling of lightness
Effects strongest after two hours
Users can experience a deep dreamy trance-like state for long periods
Used as a recreational drug
Also taken by heroin and cocaine addicts to beat cravings
In the UK, about 2.9 million adults – 7% of the population – are alcohol
dependent.
Alcohol misuse is linked to 22,000 deaths a year and costs the economy £20bn
a year in lost production and treatment.
People who misuse alcohol tend to be treated through counselling, although
there are a few drugs available which are sometimes used in conjunction with
rehabilitation programmes.
Reduced drinking
The research team believes the findings, published in the Journal of
Neuroscience, could lead to a change in approach to treating alcohol
addiction.
Report co-author Patricia Janak said they found the drug worked by
increasing
the level of the GDNF protein in the brain.
Previously, scientists were aware the drug may reduce dependency but did not
fully understand how it worked.
She said the team induced the rats to consume alcohol and found once they
were injected with ibogaine their GDNF levels increased and they reduced
their
drinking.
There is a link to craving in the brain and if we can influence that it
is feasible to develop a drug treatment
Dr Bruce Ritson
She said the effect may stop people “falling off the wagon” as when rats
were
denied alcohol for two weeks those given ibogaine had a much lower craving
when offered alcohol.
“The discovery that ibogaine reduced binge drinking after a period of
abstinence was an exiting finding for us because this is the type of
behaviour in
alcoholics for which very few effective drugs exist.”
While the drug remains unlicensed in the UK and much of the rest of the
world, it is used to treat addiction in several private clinics in the
Caribbean
and Mexico.
But Alcohol Concern said the findings should be treated with caution.
‘Shed light’
A spokeswoman said: “This type of study could prove useful in the long term
to shed light on the relationship between the brain and alcohol intake.
“However, very little can be drawn from a single animal-based study at this
stage.”
A further note of caution was added by Martin Plant, professor of addiction
studies at the University of the West of England, who said: “People become
addicted to alcohol for many different reason. The idea that taking tablets
cures
the problem is naive.”
Dr Bruce Ritson, of the Medical Council on Alcohol, said: “Addiction is a
complex area and I would not believe it is the whole answer.”
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/4182233.stm
Published: 2005/01/19 01:22:53 GMT
© BBC MMV
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 11:47:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Not an artist??? Well, shit, I look forward to your work when you finally
become one!!!! LOL
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, 20 January 2005 5:25 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Dear list,
I have been working on an article about my experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Caffeine story in National Geographic. ‘The world’s most popular psychoactive drug’. Sent fyi.
Date: January 19, 2005 at 11:30:55 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: Caffeine story in National Geographic. ‘The world’s most popular psychoactive drug’. Sent fyi.
Dear Colleagues,
This month the National Geographic Magazine has a 30 page cover story on caffeine which makes fascinating reading. Caffeine is the world’s most popular drug, even eclipsing tobacco and alcohol.
The history of beverages, nuts and confection containing caffeine makes quite a story, paralleling civilisation itself. Prior to the industrial revolution there was little to be gained in keeping awake after dark. Since caffeine increases alertness, improves reflexes and reduces fatigue, it is an ideal accompaniment to round-the-clock factory work. With few proven side effects at normal doses, it would thus appear to be the ideal drug for the modern era.
After tea, coffee and cocoa, the latest incarnation is in ‘energy drinks’. We are told that “Red Bull” was an Austrian invention which is now copied all around the world. I recall seeing “Jolt” cola when in Japan over ten years ago. Strangely, it is compulsory in many countries to state contents details on the label of most products, but tea, coffee and cola often still remain exempt from this requirement.
We are informed that dark chocolate contains up to three times as much caffeine as milk chocolate and 12mg is a typical dose contained in a small block. The article quotes a cup of brewed tea at 50mg, about the same as a single shot of espresso coffee. A 20oz (US) bottle of Coca-Cola has 57mg caffeine while a small tin of Red Bull contains 80mg.
There is an exhaustive discussion of the benefits versus the potential side effects of the drug, including its use in pregnancy and in children. The author’s conclusion on balance is parallel with the FDA, that the drug is ‘generally recognized as safe’ in doses of up to 300mg daily. However they sound a warning that ‘people who consume caffeine have higher rates of kidney and bladder cancer, fibrocystic breast disease, pancreatic cancer and osteoporosis’ even if these are not necessarily causative. Nervousness, panic attacks and temporary increases in blood pressure are also occasional associations of caffeine consumption.
Other interesting quotes: “The caffeine extracted from coffee beans to make ‘decaf’ is sold to drug and soft drink manufacturers”. “Military studies of subjects who had not slept for 48 hours showed that 600mg of caffeine improved alertness and mood as much as 20mg of amphetamine”. “The robusta coffee beans used in less expensive brands contain almost twice as much caffeine as the arabica beans favored by connoisseurs”. “Going without caffeine for a day and a half increases blood flow in the brain which may explain why people get headaches when they first give it up”. “Cigarette smoking nearly doubles the rate at which the body metabolises caffeine”. “Vietnam is now the world’s second largest coffee producer, yet is largely a nation of tea drinkers”.
See also http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2004/09_29_04.html (Caffeine withdrawal recognised as DSM disorder).
comments by Andrew Byrne ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524 Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My grandfather Harry Gracie’s letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm
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From: Andrea Wellman <crazyhazeyworld@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free misstyfyd@aol.com
Date: January 19, 2005 at 7:03:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Also, i wanted to add that i wasn’t myself at all. at that time, i was all strung out and thats a big reason why i can’t stand to see or talk to anyone from those days. It’s so painful. Your husband may have found himself now. Maybe he wasn’t who he was then. I’m sorry—i don’t know you or your husband. I just feel like i may be able to relate to your problem. (seeing that I was on the other end). Who knows, maybe he will come back to you. I realize that i hurt a lot of people on the way, but I am happy to be who i am now–and that’s priceless. These realities are harsh, Jessica. if you were as supportive as you say you have been, then props to you. you will be rewarded with a more appreciative partner.
Andrea
Misstyfyd@aol.com wrote:
Hi Andrea. Thanks for replying. Well, it doesn’t help a whole lot to think that you still don’t talk to those people, because i want to talk to him soooo bad. (we have three children) but at least i know there doesn’t have to be anything really wrong with me for him to cut the ties. The real pisser is that he still talks to the guys that started him on the wrong track, and some of them that went down with him. He went with them on his birthday instead of talking to his kids (who had planned on seeing him, and bought him gifts) I just really want some hope, but i have to get it from inside and from what i think i know. However, this group has helped me somewhat in an odd way. I just want my husband, the one I thought i married. He was my best friend. Even when an addict, and trying to be my enemy (well, not that that is the goal…) anyway, he too, was a star athlete (pro water-skiier), and top grade achiever. Went to one of those private schools, and was everyone’s hero. Still is to a lot of people. I work in the town where he grew up, so it really sucks, because people recognize the last name and want to tell me how great he is all day, and i just want to cry, cuz i only saw that for a few months. Oh well, have lovely day, group! I’m sposed to be at work at 8:30, i have three kids to get ready and take to daycare and it is 7:45. Can i do it? Jessica
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 5:58:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie,
you are an artist.
with love,..Jasen.
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 2:24 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Dear list,
I have been working on an article about my experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] reap/sow
Date: January 19, 2005 at 5:47:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Is that so? A bwiti cop? Or a junkie cop?
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: knowone knowwhere [mailto:kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: woensdag 19 januari 2005 22:16
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] reap/sow
btw…he’s a cop.
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 4:40:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Very balanced, lots of depth, harmonious, reflective of the spirit at that
moment? These expressive pictures make the artist in me want to do the
ibogaine trip even more!
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Julie, I dig the cosmic surfer! The tribal character is great!
here’s one of my recent iboga works…
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] reap/sow
Date: January 19, 2005 at 4:16:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
btw…he’s a cop.
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 4:01:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
tell me something interesting, or am I not cool enough
or whatever 😉
— “….Ken” <chayco@island.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a
newly re-surfaced
vein… must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a
‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a
delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in
our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me
……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that
we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would
stretch out my arms for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all
‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual
fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine
has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include
considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this
group.
regards……..Ken
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 4:01:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I mean…
that’s facinating.
— “….Ken” <chayco@island.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a
newly re-surfaced
vein… must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a
‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a
delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in
our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me
……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that
we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would
stretch out my arms for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all
‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual
fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine
has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include
considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this
group.
regards……..Ken
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 3:59:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
<yawn>
— “….Ken” <chayco@island.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a
newly re-surfaced
vein… must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a
‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a
delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in
our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me
……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that
we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would
stretch out my arms for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all
‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual
fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine
has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include
considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this
group.
regards……..Ken
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] GDNF anybody??
Date: January 19, 2005 at 3:55:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Where the author gets the idea that ibogaine is not used clinically because
of side effects is a mystery but it sounds good if you have an alternate
product in mind. I guess 18-mc and noribogaine get cut out of the loop too.
Howard
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/3/619
Glial Cell Line-Derived Neurotrophic Factor Mediates the Desirable Actions of
the Anti-Addiction Drug Ibogaine against Alcohol Consumption
Dao-Yao He,1 * Nancy N. H. McGough,1 * Ajay Ravindranathan,1 Jerome Jeanblanc,
1 Marian L. Logrip,1,3 Khanhky Phamluong,1 Patricia H. Janak,1,2,3 and Dorit
Ron1,2,3
1Ernest Gallo Research Center, 2Department of Neurology, 3Neuroscience
Graduate Program, University of California, San Francisco, Emeryville, California
94608
Alcohol addiction manifests as uncontrolled drinking despite negative
consequences. Few medications are available to treat the disorder. Anecdotal reports
suggest that ibogaine, a natural alkaloid, reverses behaviors associated with
addiction including alcoholism; however, because of side effects, ibogaine is
not used clinically. In this study, we first characterized the actions of
ibogaine on ethanol self-administration in rodents. Ibogaine decreased ethanol
intake by rats in two-bottle choice and operant self-administration paradigms.
Ibogaine also reduced operant self-administration of ethanol in a relapse model.
Next, we identified a molecular mechanism that mediates the desirable
activities of ibogaine on ethanol intake. Microinjection of ibogaine into the ventral
tegmental area (VTA), but not the substantia nigra, reduced
self-administration of ethanol, and systemic administration of ibogaine increased the expression
of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) in a midbrain region
that includes the VTA. In dopaminergic neuron-like SHSY5Y cells, ibogaine
treatment upregulated the GDNF pathway as indicated by increases in phosphorylation
of the GDNF receptor, Ret, and the downstream kinase, ERK1 (extracellular
signal-regulated kinase 1). Finally, the ibogaine-mediated decrease in ethanol
self-administration was mimicked by intra-VTA microinjection of GDNF and was
reduced by intra-VTA delivery of anti-GDNF neutralizing antibodies. Together,
these results suggest that GDNF in the VTA mediates the action of ibogaine on
ethanol consumption. These findings highlight the importance of GDNF as a new
target for drug development for alcoholism that may mimic the effect of ibogaine
against alcohol consumption but avoid the negative side effects.
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 3:39:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Wow, that image is very cool…I like the metallic
sheen…
I saw some more of your images on MindVox, and Dave, I
gotta tell you, I saw visions of striking similarity
during my Ibo session…WOW!
Rock on,
Julie
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 3:31:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie, I dig the cosmic surfer! The tribal character is great!
here’s one of my recent iboga works…
On Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 06:24 AM, Ms Iboga wrote:
Dear list,
I have been working on an article about my experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
love Julie
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250<space-surfer.gif><tunnel.gif>
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From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 3:19:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
But, he claimed there was no longer a need for it, just
pleasure. What do y’all think?
I think he was strung out on Peyote.
LOL.
in all seriousness, I know a few Native Elders on the west Coast who eat peyote 4X a year ceremoniously (each solstice & equinox), and several other times a year not-so ceremoniously.
Grandfather Medicine… good stuff.
The Peyote Ceremonies I attended were very “old school” meaning there was a lot of structure and following of the old ways/rituals – each motion and word spoken had deep reverence and symbolism. They were held in a gigantic TeePee, and only the elders were allowed to site in the inner circle. then there was a second circle outside of that that the family members sat, and then a third outer circle where us “guests” sat. The peyote was offered in a tin cup with a spoon, powdered. That was swallowed down [gliCK!] with as many swigs of button tea that you wanted. 16 hours in that teepee drumming and chanting, with only 1 break to get up, pee and stretch… then more chanting and drumming. It was quite intense. The highlight for me was listening to a 55 year old baptist preacher who had never even smoked a joint give praise to what he called “Gods Great Cosmic Pinball Game”, in other words he was tripping his face off with visuals and loving it.
Note to self: Do NOT shoot heroin and cocaine right before eating peyote.
_.dh
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:54:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi key,
What the old Indian told you
is my opinion too.
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Kay Lee [mailto:kaylee1@charter.net]
Verzonden: woensdag 19 januari 2005 19:51
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Oh my gosh. The Tunnel is amazing, so ibogaine is like looking into
yourself. How interesting. And I do see talent in your portrayals, Julie.
An old indian man in northern california once told me that every
‘psychedelic’ plant can show you the light and that once you’ve taken the
right dose to see the light, you don’t need the plant anymore. He was
particularly fond of peyote, and even though he had seen the light, he still
used the plant. But, he claimed there was no longer a need for it, just
pleasure. What do y’all think?
Kay Lee
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Dear list,
I have been working on an article about my experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
love Julie
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—-
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Almost clean…& about chipping
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:32:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi shelly, on your last mail you wrote “Lonliness is a big reason why I picked up again”.
i don´t know if this helps, but there is a nice text i read last autum when withdrawing and feeling lonely:
http://www.sfgoth.com/~immanis/rilke/letter6.html
best wishes ekki
Am 19.01.2005 um 19:40 schrieb shelley krupa:
Hey List, glad to see so many active folks aboard. Guess I’d qualify as one of the lurkers lately, although the last time I posted ,I had only one response..from Howard. I had started chippin’ about when the holiday season started,not in the celebratory mode but more like..holidays hurt for me.Of course ,we all know what happens after chippin around.Im a fellow x3 ibonaut ,but cant really take a week out to do ibogaine right now ,so I picked the lesser of the evils & got a doc I know to help me with buprenex,Im doing a taper,on miniscule amounts & actually following directions!Probalably b/c no real HIGH reward form the bup, after no drug of choice now for over 2 weeks ,Im seeing more clearly how insane it was/is to pick up again,& Im not willing to do the guilt thingy like Preston was discussing,even tho the doc is shoving 12 step down my throat,Im holding steady,Im only taking an eigth of a 2 mg pill ,dont know how bad its actually gonna be to stop completely,working on getting into the right spiritual state of mind instead of the bleak junkie thought process.No one here to help with an at home detox like last time,had an angel ,cant get off work due to unreliable behavior lately( but still salvagable b/c Im catching myself so quickly). Howard suggested the ibogaine sessions in the past are still having a good influence in the present.Still wanting to do another session in the spring when I can schedule time off ,I need at least a week without the pressure of my job (psych RN).Enough about me ,glad every one is here & for some new blood too,Shell
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:25:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thank you Kay, Jon, and Todd…your kind words mean a
lot. Thank God for computers- I can’t draw worth
shit, but I have all these ideas in my head that I
need to get out. Photoshop rules!
Kay, I would definitely say that Ibogaine is like
looking into yourself. Personally, I felt that
Ibogaine gave me the ability to directly communicate
with my unconscious mind. It must work on the part of
the brain associated with dreaming and memory storage.
The language of Ibogaine is complex and simple at the
same time. Some of my visions made no sense, but over
the last couple of months I have started to decode
some of the symbolic language. I’d like to do a mini
session soon, to reap the full benefits of the
Ibogaine experience. Using it to detox was great, but
I want to try it again in full health, and see how the
experience differs.
Much love, and good luck Kay,
Julie
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:21:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
ken,
You either get it or you don’t. Like it or you don’t. Want to
respond
or you don’t. There does exist a way to respond without attacking people.
I was just asking and a lot of times what’s written to one persons query
may
not do a damn thing for them but possibly some of the many voyeurs on the
site or others get something. Kind of like a sense of community, ever
heard
of it. I could have called you a condescending, pathological angry
schmuck
that should not be let off the leash for the sake of mankind… however I
didn’t. So you can take all your preconceived stereotypical therories
with
you on your quest for that giant ass kicking you appear to be looking for.
Oh and if you come across any guilt while you’re looking send some this
way
because I DON’T HAVE ANY!!
Regards,
Martee
Dear Martee,
Let’s hug.
Warm and
fuzzy ….Ken
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:13:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
BTW, when did you self-administer ibogaine? What form was it in? Did it
help
you attain what you were after, or give you what you were trying to find
by
doing it? Why did you take it three times?
Where did you take it, if you don’t mind my asking all these questions.
Orally, Preston……orally. 😉
Was it helpful? When did you last
take it, and how long did the “glow” (if you experienced any for that
matter) last for you? Do you feel you got some lasting effects from taking
ibogaine, anything either beneficial or harmful overall? Any longterm
effects you’re still aware of at all?
Thanks for your time and for all the big smiles you keep giving me.
Peace and love,
Preston
Hello Preston, et al
I imported a fair bit of ibogaine extract from Indrah a good ten years ago
(my youngest daughter is 9 yrs, that’s how I remember). I had a substantial
habit from having access to a substantial amount of H. It used to cost me
$7.00 (seven)
a gram @ approx. 89% purity. When I found myself (and wife) removed from the
source…..the future looked rather daunting so I began to do
research…….and found out about ibogaine.
I did 3 grams first as a test run…….and when I became physically
functional again….I realized that I had no withdrawal
feelings at all. I remember getting up and going to the fridge for a beer
and noticing the drawer with my stash…..hhmmm, I wasn’t interested…..on
to the fridge and as my hand reached out for that cold beer……hhhmmm, I
wasn’t even interested in a beer. That was just too much !! I worked for
several days to get my taste for alcohol back.
I should also add that I flushed just under an ounce down the crapper (it
sure wasn’t an ounce of ibogaine)…..how is that for a testimonial of
ibogaines effectiveness. I was quite motivated to end my ‘run’.
One thing led to another and within three months or so the psychological
cravings (aka that hungry worm deep in your belly) was strong enough to
misdirect me. Second time on ibogaine I took 4 grams with the same effects
and also repeated my relapse. Third time, 5 grams (all within one full year)
it was ‘done’. The desire was gone and I simply dreaded going through yet
another ibogaine ‘session’.
I have ‘chipped’ a couple of three times or so since, with no ill
effect……the thrill is gone.
The wife basically duplicated the above experiences.
In regards to dosages and the effectiveness of that dosage I believe it is
hard to determine. I wonder if the point when you begin visualising images
of your life history….rapid image flashes….may be a determining point
that you have taken a ‘therapeutic dose’ or not. Any comments ?
Anyone with first hand reports on using ibogaine to end methamphetamine use
?
I took some extract to rural North Thailand to see if it may prove
beneficial for the Thais who are induldging
in meth far too much….but I wasn’t able to satisfy myself that they
understood what ibogaine actually was and to make an informed decision to
accept potential risks, so I aborted the project. Self administering, in my
opinion, is fine….if you are well informed.
I better
go milk the chickens…..Ken
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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:16:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sounds to me like she didn’t take enough and she didn’t give it a chance to work. Most of us addicts get more sick from the fear of being sick, than from actual withdrawal. Most of us, IMO, are very dramatic because we have been manipulaters of everything around us to get what it is we think we need. Whether it be whining, crying, hustling, stealing, whatever, we convince ourselves we need it, so believing we don’t need it is very difficult and at the first sign of pain or sickness, we run to the old stand-by. Ibogaine is a great tool, but it takes a sincere desire to quit, not just wanting to keep from being sick. BTW, my name is Shawn and I was treated by Sara at the end of March 2004. I have been clean ever since returning and when I broke my wrist I had taken some Vicodins for pain, but when the pain stopped I gave the rest away, with no withdrawal. It took about 2 weeks of minor flu-like symptoms (nothing like cold turkey or even a clinic detox, but sniffles and sneezing and minor stomach cramps), all of which were all but alleviated with high quality Cannabis. And it took about two months before I felt like I was back to the old me, before opiates. Thanks to Sara I have been clean for almost 10 months and I have no desire to use again.
Kay Lee <kaylee1@charter.net> wrote:
I thought the Ibogaine treatment took only 10 hours. Is the actual Iboga
plant different than Ibogaine?
Kay Lee
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet”
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
>but she said that the iboga was poisoning her her whole body hurt her skin
>her joints her bones…<
sounds exactly like I felt at about the 12 hour mark.
Sorry to hear she went through the pain and didn’t get off as she wanted to.
Best thoughts to you both.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Adam
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:36 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Hi its Adam, just to let you know she wasnt able to kick. I dont know if
the indra product is old or if she is elergic or just sensitive… but she
said that the iboga was poisoning her her whole body hurt her skin her
joints her bones… she said it felt alot like how you feel after taking
acide ( how the stricknine poision they use to perserve lsd effects the
body). I gave her 3 grams and she didnt want to take anymore. She said she
was sure it was not withdraw she was feeling but the iboga, which is werid
because I have never heard of anyone having an experince like that. But she
has gone through withdraw before and knows what it feels like. I do believe
that even if it was causeing her discomfort she still did not take enough
iboga becasue she was withdrawing near the end 20 hours into the kick. So
after 20 hours of crying about the unbarable pain she snuck a little
heroin…. which she said helped alot but her skin still hurt.&n! bsp;One
positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get by..
she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a week. we
have 17grams left. Im going to try to take 6 in a couple days and see if I
experience what she did and if it works for me the she will take it again..
thanks for your concern everyone 93
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%]
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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents – Jib Jab’s ‘Second Term’
From: Todd Morgan <sovntm@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:13:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie,
Your art is very cool. I would love to see more.
— Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear list,
I have been working on an article about my
experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired
by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am
by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search.
Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
ATTACHMENT part 2 image/gif name=space-surfer.gif
ATTACHMENT part 3 image/gif name=tunnel.gif
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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:08:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have been working on an article about my experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
very nice!
i especially like the tunnel one. =)
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 19, 2005 at 1:53:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I thought the Ibogaine treatment took only 10 hours. Is the actual Iboga
plant different than Ibogaine?
Kay Lee
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
but she said that the iboga was poisoning her her whole body hurt her skin
her joints her bones…<
sounds exactly like I felt at about the 12 hour mark.
Sorry to hear she went through the pain and didn’t get off as she wanted to.
Best thoughts to you both.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Adam
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:36 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Hi its Adam, just to let you know she wasnt able to kick. I dont know if
the indra product is old or if she is elergic or just sensitive… but she
said that the iboga was poisoning her her whole body hurt her skin her
joints her bones… she said it felt alot like how you feel after taking
acide ( how the stricknine poision they use to perserve lsd effects the
body). I gave her 3 grams and she didnt want to take anymore. She said she
was sure it was not withdraw she was feeling but the iboga, which is werid
because I have never heard of anyone having an experince like that. But she
has gone through withdraw before and knows what it feels like. I do believe
that even if it was causeing her discomfort she still did not take enough
iboga becasue she was withdrawing near the end 20 hours into the kick. So
after 20 hours of crying about the unbarable pain she snuck a little
heroin…. which she said helped alot but her skin still hurt.&n! bsp;One
positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get by..
she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a week. we
have 17grams left. Im going to try to take 6 in a couple days and see if I
experience what she did and if it works for me the she will take it again..
thanks for your concern everyone 93
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
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From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 1:51:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Oh my gosh. The Tunnel is amazing, so ibogaine is like looking into
yourself. How interesting. And I do see talent in your portrayals, Julie.
An old indian man in northern california once told me that every
‘psychedelic’ plant can show you the light and that once you’ve taken the
right dose to see the light, you don’t need the plant anymore. He was
particularly fond of peyote, and even though he had seen the light, he still
used the plant. But, he claimed there was no longer a need for it, just
pleasure. What do y’all think?
Kay Lee
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Dear list,
I have been working on an article about my experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
love Julie
——————————————————————————–
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Almost clean…& about chipping
Date: January 19, 2005 at 1:40:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey List, glad to see so many active folks aboard. Guess I’d qualify as one of the lurkers lately, although the last time I posted ,I had only one response..from Howard. I had started chippin’ about when the holiday season started,not in the celebratory mode but more like..holidays hurt for me.Of course ,we all know what happens after chippin around.Im a fellow x3 ibonaut ,but cant really take a week out to do ibogaine right now ,so I picked the lesser of the evils & got a doc I know to help me with buprenex,Im doing a taper,on miniscule amounts & actually following directions!Probalably b/c no real HIGH reward form the bup, after no drug of choice now for over 2 weeks ,Im seeing more clearly how insane it was/is to pick up again,& Im not willing to do the guilt thingy like Preston was discussing,even tho the doc is shoving 12 step down my throat,Im holding steady,Im only taking an eigth of a 2 mg pill ,dont know how bad its actually gonna be to stop completely,working on getting into the right spiritual state of mind instead of the bleak junkie thought process.No one here to help with an at home detox like last time,had an angel ,cant get off work due to unreliable behavior lately( but still salvagable b/c Im catching myself so quickly). Howard suggested the ibogaine sessions in the past are still having a good influence in the present.Still wanting to do another session in the spring when I can schedule time off ,I need at least a week without the pressure of my job (psych RN).Enough about me ,glad every one is here & for some new blood too,Shell
Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Drug War Chronicle in 2005Hi all,
Yes, I know, it looks like I’m bleating about myself while beating my
own drum, but this is definitely a first for me (well, that’s not surprising
considering it’s my first book anyway) and so cool that I had to share. My
book is being offered as an incentive by DRCNet to draw in donations. That
is one of the coolest things I could think of to have happen (other than for
that magic “hey, yer a best selling multi-millionaire now- what book would
you like to be paid lots of money to write now?” and “another agent called
seeking to represent you.” Those would also be very cool of course and rank
pretty high up on my “how cool is that” list.)
>As a special encouragement, we are offering an exciting new incentive:
>Donate $40 or more once, or $10 or more per month, and receive a
>complimentary copy of Under The Influence: The Disinformation Guide to
>Drugs, edited by Preston Peet, an engaging collection of 49 essays about
>the drug war, including two by Drug War Chronicle’s own Phil Smith. Click
>here to read the Drug War Chronicle review of Under The Influence.<
snip-
see the rest below.
;-0)))
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: David Borden
To: Preston Peet
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 10:03 AM
Subject: Drug War Chronicle in 2005
DRCNet Foundation
StoptheDrugWar.org
Dear Drug War Chronicle devotee:
Thanks to your enthusiasm, Drug War Chronicle has completed 7 Н years of
publishing – 370 issues, nearly 4,800 articles – and we now move into 2005
and another year of hopeful, distressing, interesting, ridiculous and
dangerous developments in drug policy and its impact on our communities and
world. From mandatory minimum sentencing, to pain doctor prosecutions,
police ignoring state medical marijuana laws, Afghanistan’s drug war, major
court rulings, ongoing chronicling of the consequences of prohibition, the
latest hair-brained drug warrior idea, David Borden’s editorials, This
Week’s Corrupt Cops Stories, coverage of the drug policy reform movement, to
leading drug warriors like drug czar John Walters and congressman Mark
Souder and the usually bad things they say and do, Drug War Chronicle will
be there to provide you with the detailed story behind the story.
Drug War Chronicle is more than a good read, but a tool used by individuals
and organizations to inform and empower their own work. Following are some
testimonials:
Media:
… “[Drug War Chronicle] is absolutely the best way to keep abreast of the
issue. It’s just a phenomenal resource – full of interesting stories and
links.” – a reporter at the Los Angeles Times
“I’ve covered the drug story for years, in many places and on many levels.
Your coverage of the drug scene has been a vital resource for us. You
provide a continuous flow of information that isn’t available from any other
media source.” – a producer of documentaries for HBO
“I thought you’d like to know that I follow your bulletins religiously for
the simple reason that the Canadian press says little about drugs. So when
you have drug news, it has very often not been reported here. I flag items
for my editor – we’ve had a number of stories that started that way. In
fact, Pastrana’s call for a world conference was a recent example of just
that. So, your work, based on my experience, is helping making waves even
when you don’t realize it.” – a prominent reporter in Canada.
Activists:
“I use [Drug War Chronicle] as a source for information I disseminate to the
chapter’s local members use the information in conversations and more formal
talks about drug policy, as well as in letters to the editor.” – the
coordinator of a local chapter of a national organization
“Your newsletter has been an invaluable source of information to us as far
as keeping up to date on all of the latest issues surrounding addiction and
drug policy. I read every issue as thoroughly as I can, and reprint and pass
along many articles to my colleagues and associates. I also have used [Drug
War Chronicle] in my monthly meetings and also in Patient run support
groups.” – head of a state chapter of a national addiction-related advocacy
organization
Policymakers:
After we ran a story in June 2003 about the cancellation of a NORML/SSDP
fundraiser in Billings, MT, following a threat by DEA agents to prosecute
club owners under the controversial “RAVE Act,” our story was forwarded by a
constituent of a member of Congress to one of her staffers, who then
contacted us for information. The staffer is working on monitoring the Act
to prevent abuses, and subscribed to our list.
A prominent agency head in South America wrote: “Our work is well known in
Brazil and I serve on government committees as well as present at most of
the conferences here. [Drug War Chronicle] has been a major source of
information and has helped shape our treatment programs as well as
influenced many policies and conferences, where the only other sources have
been the official USG and UN policies.”
This year’s Chronicle coverage owes much thanks to a generous $40,000 grant
provided late last year by the Educational Foundation of America. However,
the Chronicle’s total expenses last year came to approximately $67,000, and
we’re anticipating a similar budget for it this year. With a sixth of the
grant having gone to 2004, that leaves us needing to generate roughly half
of that amount, or $33,500, from other sources. We had hoped to be able to
raise and set this money aside last year. But frankly, the presidential
election campaigns, which were the most expensive in history, hit our
fundraising like a ton of bricks. The numbers tell the story: During the
first half of 2004, donations under $500 in size to DRCNet totaled $40,374.
During the second half of 2004, they came to only $21,095, slightly over
half as much.
If we don’t raise the other $33,500… to be honest, we’ll squeak by, but
the money will then have to come out of our other programs. And since DRCNet
is not just a reporting organization, but an activist one as well, that will
mean less work done for drug policy reform on Capitol Hill and out in the
grassroots trenches. To make 2005 an activist year fostering change, we are
asking you to donate to support Drug War Chronicle or to make a pledge to
donate at some specified time this year. Please click here to make a
one-time donation to Drug War Chronicle, or click here to sign up to donate
monthly. Or, send us an e-mail to let us know how much you are pledging and
for when.
As a special encouragement, we are offering an exciting new incentive:
Donate $40 or more once, or $10 or more per month, and receive a
complimentary copy of Under The Influence: The Disinformation Guide to
Drugs, edited by Preston Peet, an engaging collection of 49 essays about the
drug war, including two by Drug War Chronicle’s own Phil Smith. Click here
to read the Drug War Chronicle review of Under The Influence.
When Ecuadoran former army colonel Lucio Gutierrez gave an interview to
Chronicle editor Phil Smith at an anti-Plan Colombia conference, he didn’t
expect it to come back to haunt him when three years later as President of
Ecuador, under US pressure, he denied attending that conference or ever
opposing Plan Colombia. But El Universo, one of Ecuador’s largest daily
papers, found the interview online. The article ran on the front page –
click here to read it online (in Spanish).
Contributions to DRCNet Foundation to support Drug War Chronicle are
tax-deductible. (If you select a gift item, the portion of your donation
that you can deduct is reduced by the item’s retail price.) Contributions to
the Drug Reform Coordination Network supporting our lobbying work are
not-deductible. If you want to make a donation in this category, please lick
here to go to our main donation page instead. The address for checks or
money orders is P.O. Box 18402, Washington, DC 20036; contact us for
information if you wish to make a donation of stock.
Thank you for your support of Drug War Chronicle. As the book title
suggests, the drug war is sustained in part by a torrent of disinformation.
And disinformation can only be countered by… valid information… hence
Drug War Chronicle. Please feel free to write or call if you have any
questions, and stay tuned for a challenging but hopefully successful year in
drug policy reform!
Sincerely,
David Borden
Executive Director
Visit the web address below to tell your friends about this.
Tell-a-friend!
If you received this message from a friend, you can sign up for DRCNet.
This message was sent to ptpeet@nyc.rr.com. Visit your subscription
management page to modify your email communication preferences or update
your personal profile. Click here (or reply via email with “remove” in the
subject line) to remove yourself from ALL email lists maintained by DRCNet
Rapid Response Team.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Kay Lee” <kaylee1@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 1:31:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What has brought me here is a desire to experience an ibogaine treatment.
I’d give up cigarettes for a treatment. (that’s kind of a joke, since the
session would ostensibly be to stop smoking).
When I watched the film, I was impressed by the spiritual nature of the
young man’s ‘trip’/treatment. I do want to know more about personal
experiences with the plant – the experience and what it did or did not do
for you.
Kay Lee
Atlanta GA
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a newly re-surfaced vein…
must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a ‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me ……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would stretch out my arms for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all ‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this group.
regards……..Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Drug War Chronicle in 2005
Date: January 19, 2005 at 12:50:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Drug War Chronicle in 2005Hi all,
Yes, I know, it looks like I’m bleating about myself while beating my own drum, but this is definitely a first for me (well, that’s not surprising considering it’s my first book anyway) and so cool that I had to share. My book is being offered as an incentive by DRCNet to draw in donations. That is one of the coolest things I could think of to have happen (other than for that magic “hey, yer a best selling multi-millionaire now- what book would you like to be paid lots of money to write now?” and “another agent called seeking to represent you.” Those would also be very cool of course and rank pretty high up on my “how cool is that” list.)
As a special encouragement, we are offering an exciting new incentive: Donate $40 or more once, or $10 or more per month, and receive a complimentary copy of Under The Influence: The Disinformation Guide to Drugs, edited by Preston Peet, an engaging collection of 49 essays about the drug war, including two by Drug War Chronicle’s own Phil Smith. Click here to read the Drug War Chronicle review of Under The Influence.<
snip-
see the rest below.
;-0)))
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: David Borden
To: Preston Peet
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 10:03 AM
Subject: Drug War Chronicle in 2005
DRCNet Foundation
StoptheDrugWar.org
Dear Drug War Chronicle devotee:
Thanks to your enthusiasm, Drug War Chronicle has completed 7 ½ years of publishing – 370 issues, nearly 4,800 articles – and we now move into 2005 and another year of hopeful, distressing, interesting, ridiculous and dangerous developments in drug policy and its impact on our communities and world. From mandatory minimum sentencing, to pain doctor prosecutions, police ignoring state medical marijuana laws, Afghanistan’s drug war, major court rulings, ongoing chronicling of the consequences of prohibition, the latest hair-brained drug warrior idea, David Borden’s editorials, This Week’s Corrupt Cops Stories, coverage of the drug policy reform movement, to leading drug warriors like drug czar John Walters and congressman Mark Souder and the usually bad things they say and do, Drug War Chronicle will be there to provide you with the detailed story behind the story.
Drug War Chronicle is more than a good read, but a tool used by individuals and organizations to inform and empower their own work. Following are some testimonials:
Media:
… “[Drug War Chronicle] is absolutely the best way to keep abreast of the issue. It’s just a phenomenal resource – full of interesting stories and links.” – a reporter at the Los Angeles Times
“I’ve covered the drug story for years, in many places and on many levels. Your coverage of the drug scene has been a vital resource for us. You provide a continuous flow of information that isn’t available from any other media source.” – a producer of documentaries for HBO
“I thought you’d like to know that I follow your bulletins religiously for the simple reason that the Canadian press says little about drugs. So when you have drug news, it has very often not been reported here. I flag items for my editor – we’ve had a number of stories that started that way. In fact, Pastrana’s call for a world conference was a recent example of just that. So, your work, based on my experience, is helping making waves even when you don’t realize it.” – a prominent reporter in Canada.
Activists:
“I use [Drug War Chronicle] as a source for information I disseminate to the chapter’s local members use the information in conversations and more formal talks about drug policy, as well as in letters to the editor.” – the coordinator of a local chapter of a national organization
“Your newsletter has been an invaluable source of information to us as far as keeping up to date on all of the latest issues surrounding addiction and drug policy. I read every issue as thoroughly as I can, and reprint and pass along many articles to my colleagues and associates. I also have used [Drug War Chronicle] in my monthly meetings and also in Patient run support groups.” – head of a state chapter of a national addiction-related advocacy organization
Policymakers:
After we ran a story in June 2003 about the cancellation of a NORML/SSDP fundraiser in Billings, MT, following a threat by DEA agents to prosecute club owners under the controversial “RAVE Act,” our story was forwarded by a constituent of a member of Congress to one of her staffers, who then contacted us for information. The staffer is working on monitoring the Act to prevent abuses, and subscribed to our list.
A prominent agency head in South America wrote: “Our work is well known in Brazil and I serve on government committees as well as present at most of the conferences here. [Drug War Chronicle] has been a major source of information and has helped shape our treatment programs as well as influenced many policies and conferences, where the only other sources have been the official USG and UN policies.”
This year’s Chronicle coverage owes much thanks to a generous $40,000 grant provided late last year by the Educational Foundation of America. However, the Chronicle’s total expenses last year came to approximately $67,000, and we’re anticipating a similar budget for it this year. With a sixth of the grant having gone to 2004, that leaves us needing to generate roughly half of that amount, or $33,500, from other sources. We had hoped to be able to raise and set this money aside last year. But frankly, the presidential election campaigns, which were the most expensive in history, hit our fundraising like a ton of bricks. The numbers tell the story: During the first half of 2004, donations under $500 in size to DRCNet totaled $40,374. During the second half of 2004, they came to only $21,095, slightly over half as much.
If we don’t raise the other $33,500… to be honest, we’ll squeak by, but the money will then have to come out of our other programs. And since DRCNet is not just a reporting organization, but an activist one as well, that will mean less work done for drug policy reform on Capitol Hill and out in the grassroots trenches. To make 2005 an activist year fostering change, we are asking you to donate to support Drug War Chronicle or to make a pledge to donate at some specified time this year. Please click here to make a one-time donation to Drug War Chronicle, or click here to sign up to donate monthly. Or, send us an e-mail to let us know how much you are pledging and for when.
As a special encouragement, we are offering an exciting new incentive: Donate $40 or more once, or $10 or more per month, and receive a complimentary copy of Under The Influence: The Disinformation Guide to Drugs, edited by Preston Peet, an engaging collection of 49 essays about the drug war, including two by Drug War Chronicle’s own Phil Smith. Click here to read the Drug War Chronicle review of Under The Influence.
When Ecuadoran former army colonel Lucio Gutierrez gave an interview to Chronicle editor Phil Smith at an anti-Plan Colombia conference, he didn’t expect it to come back to haunt him when three years later as President of Ecuador, under US pressure, he denied attending that conference or ever opposing Plan Colombia. But El Universo, one of Ecuador’s largest daily papers, found the interview online. The article ran on the front page – click here to read it online (in Spanish).
Contributions to DRCNet Foundation to support Drug War Chronicle are tax-deductible. (If you select a gift item, the portion of your donation that you can deduct is reduced by the item’s retail price.) Contributions to the Drug Reform Coordination Network supporting our lobbying work are not-deductible. If you want to make a donation in this category, please lick here to go to our main donation page instead. The address for checks or money orders is P.O. Box 18402, Washington, DC 20036; contact us for information if you wish to make a donation of stock.
Thank you for your support of Drug War Chronicle. As the book title suggests, the drug war is sustained in part by a torrent of disinformation. And disinformation can only be countered by… valid information… hence Drug War Chronicle. Please feel free to write or call if you have any questions, and stay tuned for a challenging but hopefully successful year in drug policy reform!
Sincerely,
David Borden
Executive Director
Visit the web address below to tell your friends about this.
Tell-a-friend!
If you received this message from a friend, you can sign up for DRCNet.
This message was sent to ptpeet@nyc.rr.com. Visit your subscription management page to modify your email communication preferences or update your personal profile. Click here (or reply via email with “remove” in the subject line) to remove yourself from ALL email lists maintained by DRCNet Rapid Response Team.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 11:40:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Jessica
He is still there, it must be so hard for you, I think you must be a great person to have put up with it for as long as you did and to still care about him. I dont know what else to say except he is the only one who can stop the drugs. Live your life with your kids dont put your life on hold, If and when he gets clean you might be there you might not. Be strong
Love Donna
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo artwork
Date: January 19, 2005 at 11:24:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear list,
I have been working on an article about my experience,
and have also been trying to craft a few visual
pieces. I would like to share two images inspired by
my Ibo experience with everyone on this list. I am by
no means an artist, so please don’t judge them too
harshly.
love Julie
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free- Misstyfyd
Date: January 19, 2005 at 10:15:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Misstyfyd,
Hi, my name is Julie, and I’m an addict…haha, just
joking. Girl, I was strung out for four years, and
the whole time I was DEFINITELY NOT myself. In fact,
towards the end of my ‘run’, I no longer resembled the
22 year old girl I had been when I started-physically,
spiritually, or psychologically. I was a drug-seeking
zombie, ripping off family and friends in order to
chase the dragon through the Underworld. I had
rapidly aged myself. My friends didn’t want anything
to do with me; my dad cried when he saw me.
I used Ibogaine to get off methadone. It took away
80-90% of my physically symptoms, and 100% of the
psychological. For me, it was always the depression
and malaise that drove me back to dope/pills. I’ve
been opiate-clean for just over 3 months.
I am pretty much back to ‘myself’- whoever and
whatever that might be. It’s still me, but a wiser,
more satisfied me, with a tinge of melancholy. When
you kiss the face of death, you should expect to leave
a small part of yourself behind.
Girl, I would venture to say that when your hubby
finally DOES get off dope, he’ll be banging down your
door. Don’t give up hope!
love Julie
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free- Martee
Date: January 19, 2005 at 9:56:46 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Martee,
I love you.
Julie 🙂
— “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net> wrote:
ken,
You either get it or you don’t. Like it or you
don’t. Want to respond
or you don’t. There does exist a way to respond
without attacking people.
I was just asking and a lot of times what’s written
to one persons query may
not do a damn thing for them but possibly some of
the many voyeurs on the
site or others get something. Kind of like a sense
of community, ever heard
of it. I could have called you a condescending,
pathological angry schmuck
that should not be let off the leash for the sake of
mankind… however I
didn’t. So you can take all your preconceived
stereotypical therories with
you on your quest for that giant ass kicking you
appear to be looking for.
Oh and if you come across any guilt while you’re
looking send some this way
because I DON’T HAVE ANY!!
Regards,
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Ken,
So sorry you converged upon us in the
middle of our mini
lovefest……we’ll give you a two day warning
when the formal one is
going
to be underway. I assume you were referring to
yourself when you
mentioned
being able to “chip”. Personally I have always
had issue with that
particular word. It sounds so casual,practically
accidental and
unintentional. Almost dainty…like something
you would do with your
pinky
extended. It’s like temporarily holding your
brothers ice cream cone and
licking the melting drips. You can justify
everyone of those licks as
harmless and necessary but the bottom line is
you’re eating ice cream!
I’m
curious how long ago you did your sessions and at
what intervals. And as
you
stated” that writhiring worm that has finally
shut up” I feel can be
force
fed and brought back to life. Maybe you’ve been
doing this for years and
are o.k. I just don’t see it as my scenario. So
how does someone do
three
ibogaine sessions and not only has no use for
cyberhugs, regards and
acknowledgments but bahumbugs them? I feel it
is quite possible that
these
things are one of the many things that have a
hand in keeping me from
eating
ice cream cones!! Not to mention all the lovely
sarcasm that gives me a
reason to get up in the morning.
Hope you find what you need. You get what
you give. So don’t sit
back and wait to be entertained. Although
Jasen’s last post made me
laugh
way out loud!!
Ahhhhhhh………what ?
Three runs on the Ibogaine and I should …..what,
want to hug YOU ?
For me ……..after 3 ‘redirections’ I found that
I had finally killed
the
‘worm’ that kept saying ….psssst Ken, pssssst
Ken ,
feeeeeeeeeeeeeed me. Okay, but after a ‘sufficient
number of months past
it
might be time to time to ‘test’ the voice. We all
know the old
rule…….not more than two days in a
row……okay, okay……not more
than three days in a row. That three day run is
pretty bloody concrete.
Stop
or your are in for the next long haul. ANYTHING,
such as stopping is
better
than doing ibogaine AGAIN…………..It ain’t
fun. If the worm is
dead……….I do mean DEAD…chipping on a two
day run is not the end of
the world……………………….once
every….hmmmm, three months ?
Oh
yeah, right, if you are one of those ‘higher
power’ schmuck
believers…….well, you just tuck into your book
of dreams and wallow in
your self imposed guilt. I have a real problem
with that.
Peace, flowers and bright
green bugs……….Ken
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From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I am free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 9:53:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I used to have shakes in the middle of the night while I was sleeping on methadone and it used to scare my girl. She thought I might have been having a seizure.
Allison Senepart <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz> wrote:
My partner sleeps with an arm raised most nights. I thought it was to do with blood circulation but perhaps its a methadone side-effect as you suggest. Would be good to know more from anyone else. Allison
——-Original Message——-
From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Monday, 10 January 2005 4:39:53 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I am free
Hi Brad,
I once asked you if you ever sleep with one arm raised.
The reason I asked is that I have known several people
on Methadone as well as my brother and myself that raise
their arm when sleeping,..this was only experienced whilst
on the ‘done.
There seems to be a pattern,…I am thinking that maybe,..
it is a call for help,..like a pull me out of here type of thing.
Whilst under the Iboga experience I understood this action
as a feeling of drowning and lifting the arm to be pulled out.
Like the yin part of your soul saying to the yang part that
leaves at night,..take me with you,.I don’t like being in here
anymore.
It would be interesting to know if anyone else on the ‘done
sleeps with one arm raised, or has done.
When you replied,”that went over my head”
The reason it cracked me up was I thought to my self
if he doesn’t sleep with an arm raised sometimes,..then
my question would seem crazy,..like,”what’s this bloke
talking about?…an arm raised???
with love, Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I am free free Jasen at Sara’s
> Hi Jasen
> I have followed your journey with much interest, I am happy for you and
> your
> accomplishment. A new life!!!!!! I have spoke(on-line) briefly with Sara
> also so have been interested in your reports and experiance. I am
> contemplating making the journey off of 600+ mg Meth. for the past several
> years. As you can imagine I have received much interesting input/advice
> regarding this journey. Fortunately, qualified providers, I believe, are
> interested in helping/working with me. Sara has expressed an interest in
> exploring the idea. I have come off H many times, a variety of ways, never
> Meth. I perked-up at your comment “I got fire burning in me again” that is
> an incredibly exciting space to be, and you’ve earned it!!!
> bf
>
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From: IBEGINAGAIN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 19, 2005 at 9:31:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
What i said was since i never worked with indra, i’m not sure how to determine exactly what the dose should be. It’s generally understood that since indra is a 20% extract it appeared she took 600 mgs. equivelent of HCL and for her body weight she may have needed 200 mgs. more. However, i also said that he needs to speak with someone who works with the indra because there are other variables such as synergy between the alcoloids located in indra. When i received the post a few evenings ago i knew Sara who works with indra would pick up the mail in her morning which is 6 hours later than me. And in the morning there she was posting her phone no. for him to call to receive the advice he needs. And now it appears she was doing the treatment for methadone and not heroin which is also a very different protocol. I wish whoever provides ibogaine in any form at least speak with all parties and help lay out a protocol given the absence of an experienced provider. I never condone doing this type of treatment this way. Never. But once in a while a woman from S. Africa or another mom from Hong Kong will call me and they have HCL and i’ll help them by talking them through a couple to a few day procedure because they will do it anyway but i wouldn’t do so with the indra because never using it i’m not at all sure.
Eric
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 19, 2005 at 9:18:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/19/05 6:38:05 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
<< >One positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get
by.. she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a
week. <
Sounds like it wasn’t a total waste already. >>
More than not a total waste but, a highly successful intermediate treatment.
What is he mental state like at this time? Is she more comfortable with
herself, have a sense of wellbeing?
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] UK ibogaine atticle BBC
Date: January 19, 2005 at 9:14:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4182233.stm
1960s drug ‘alcoholism cure hope’
A hallucinogenic drug popular in the 1960s could help scientists find a
medical treatment for alcoholism, US researchers believe.
A University of California team said ibogaine blocked alcohol cravings in
rats by boosting a brain protein.
It was already thought it could combat addiction, but scientists have been
wary as the drug is also toxic.
It is hoped a treatment which works in the same way as ibogaine but without
the side effects could be developed.
Ibogaine
It causes hallucinations as well a feeling of lightness
Effects strongest after two hours
Users can experience a deep dreamy trance-like state for long periods
Used as a recreational drug
Also taken by heroin and cocaine addicts to beat cravings
In the UK, about 2.9 million adults – 7% of the population – are alcohol
dependent.
Alcohol misuse is linked to 22,000 deaths a year and costs the economy £20bn
a year in lost production and treatment.
People who misuse alcohol tend to be treated through counselling, although
there are a few drugs available which are sometimes used in conjunction with
rehabilitation programmes.
Reduced drinking
The research team believes the findings, published in the Journal of
Neuroscience, could lead to a change in approach to treating alcohol addiction.
Report co-author Patricia Janak said they found the drug worked by increasing
the level of the GDNF protein in the brain.
Previously, scientists were aware the drug may reduce dependency but did not
fully understand how it worked.
She said the team induced the rats to consume alcohol and found once they
were injected with ibogaine their GDNF levels increased and they reduced their
drinking.
There is a link to craving in the brain and if we can influence that it
is feasible to develop a drug treatment
Dr Bruce Ritson
She said the effect may stop people “falling off the wagon” as when rats were
denied alcohol for two weeks those given ibogaine had a much lower craving
when offered alcohol.
“The discovery that ibogaine reduced binge drinking after a period of
abstinence was an exiting finding for us because this is the type of behaviour in
alcoholics for which very few effective drugs exist.”
While the drug remains unlicensed in the UK and much of the rest of the
world, it is used to treat addiction in several private clinics in the Caribbean
and Mexico.
But Alcohol Concern said the findings should be treated with caution.
‘Shed light’
A spokeswoman said: “This type of study could prove useful in the long term
to shed light on the relationship between the brain and alcohol intake.
“However, very little can be drawn from a single animal-based study at this
stage.”
A further note of caution was added by Martin Plant, professor of addiction
studies at the University of the West of England, who said: “People become
addicted to alcohol for many different reason. The idea that taking tablets cures
the problem is naive.”
Dr Bruce Ritson, of the Medical Council on Alcohol, said: “Addiction is a
complex area and I would not believe it is the whole answer.”
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/4182233.stm
Published: 2005/01/19 01:22:53 GMT
© BBC MMV
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From: Misstyfyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 7:54:14 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I know he’s feeling guilty because he let me down, but he doesn’t understand that i don’t hold him entirely accountable for the years of hell. It was a time in his life that he would have experienced with or without me, and i’m glad i was there for him. I don’t mean to imply a codependency or anything, but i met him right at the start of his decent into madness (though i didn’t know it at the time) and i know who he is. I know because i’ve never been closer to a human being in all my life and i don’t think that i ever will be again. That kept me there, and now he says that person was a lark, but there is no possible way it could have been faked. and i still think there some kind of denial, or stage that he has to hit or go through. i’m not sure. everyone says that he is dead, and i have to let it go. but i know what was inside of him. I do. i saw it. I have tears in my eyes just thinking on it. Does that person die? That’s all i’m wondering, because when i look at him, once a month when he lets me, i see him in there, i can’t explain it, but there is something deep down in his eyes that lets me know he’s lost in there. and i can’t do anything right, and i can’t say anything right to bring him back, but i can’t believe that he’s not who he was. Okay, totally babbling. you are not a counselor. i know. I go to far. Jessica
From: Misstyfyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 7:44:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Andrea. Thanks for replying. Well, it doesn’t help a whole lot to think that you still don’t talk to those people, because i want to talk to him soooo bad. (we have three children) but at least i know there doesn’t have to be anything really wrong with me for him to cut the ties. The real pisser is that he still talks to the guys that started him on the wrong track, and some of them that went down with him. He went with them on his birthday instead of talking to his kids (who had planned on seeing him, and bought him gifts) I just really want some hope, but i have to get it from inside and from what i think i know. However, this group has helped me somewhat in an odd way. I just want my husband, the one I thought i married. He was my best friend. Even when an addict, and trying to be my enemy (well, not that that is the goal…) anyway, he too, was a star athlete (pro water-skiier), and top grade achiever. Went to one of those private schools, and was everyone’s hero. Still is to a lot of people. I work in the town where he grew up, so it really sucks, because people recognize the last name and want to tell me how great he is all day, and i just want to cry, cuz i only saw that for a few months. Oh well, have lovely day, group! I’m sposed to be at work at 8:30, i have three kids to get ready and take to daycare and it is 7:45. Can i do it? Jessica
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 19, 2005 at 6:33:36 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
One positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get by.. she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a week. <
Sounds like it wasn’t a total waste already.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Adam
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:36 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Hi its Adam, just to let you know she wasnt able to kick. I dont know if the indra product is old or if she is elergic or just sensitive… but she said that the iboga was poisoning her her whole body hurt her skin her joints her bones… she said it felt alot like how you feel after taking acide ( how the stricknine poision they use to perserve lsd effects the body). I gave her 3 grams and she didnt want to take anymore. She said she was sure it was not withdraw she was feeling but the iboga, which is werid because I have never heard of anyone having an experince like that. But she has gone through withdraw before and knows what it feels like. I do believe that even if it was causeing her discomfort she still did not take enough iboga becasue she was withdrawing near the end 20 hours into the kick. So after 20 hours of crying about the unbarable pain she snuck a little heroin…. which she said helped alot but her skin still hurt.&n! bsp;One positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get by.. she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a week. we have 17grams left. Im going to try to take 6 in a couple days and see if I experience what she did and if it works for me the she will take it again.. thanks for your concern everyone 93
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 19, 2005 at 6:33:00 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
but she said that the iboga was poisoning her her whole body hurt her skin her joints her bones…<
sounds exactly like I felt at about the 12 hour mark.
Sorry to hear she went through the pain and didn’t get off as she wanted to. Best thoughts to you both.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Adam
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:36 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Hi its Adam, just to let you know she wasnt able to kick. I dont know if the indra product is old or if she is elergic or just sensitive… but she said that the iboga was poisoning her her whole body hurt her skin her joints her bones… she said it felt alot like how you feel after taking acide ( how the stricknine poision they use to perserve lsd effects the body). I gave her 3 grams and she didnt want to take anymore. She said she was sure it was not withdraw she was feeling but the iboga, which is werid because I have never heard of anyone having an experince like that. But she has gone through withdraw before and knows what it feels like. I do believe that even if it was causeing her discomfort she still did not take enough iboga becasue she was withdrawing near the end 20 hours into the kick. So after 20 hours of crying about the unbarable pain she snuck a little heroin…. which she said helped alot but her skin still hurt.&n! bsp;One positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get by.. she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a week. we have 17grams left. Im going to try to take 6 in a couple days and see if I experience what she did and if it works for me the she will take it again.. thanks for your concern everyone 93
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 6:29:17 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
HI Ken, and all others too of course,
Ken asked >BTW……what da bleedin’ ‘ell is this peace and love bit ?<
I figure to plant a few seeds of positive vibes and this is one way I’ve personally chosen to do so. How others react and respond and use those vibes is up to them.
>Ahh, come on Preston………..I don’t know your past on this group…<
It’s fairly long and varied.
but, I
got this here fuzzy feeling that you have some great potential as a story
teller. You got to admit…….there aren’t many (any) of us who haven’t got
a bucketful of bizarre storys……..that only ‘we’ may relate to.<
You can always check out http://www.drugwar.com for some of my stories, news and otherwise.
There’s also this link, which takes you directly to my page at my website:
http://www.drugwar.com/PrestonPeetIndex.shtm
and here’s one that goes even deeper into that one page, where I’ve a few chapters of a book-in-progress called Something in the Way, that’s currently going through yet another rewrite. Anyway, here’s the link:
http://www.drugwar.com/somethingintheway.shtm
I remember them symbolically burying the ‘hippie’ in SF back on the eve of ’69/’70.<
While I do seem to remember reading something about this happening, I have to ask: Who is “them” and why does “them” always get the blame?
Seriously though, are you implying that by my adding peace and love to my sig line I’m a hippie? Or a wannabe hippie? Is this what yer getting at? LOL, ok, you got me, I’ma hippie. Just kidding, I’m not. Or am I? I do have hair and a beard, I might be a hippie and not even know it. But I suspect I’d know, and I’m not a hippie. Just kidding, I am. Oh wait, no I’m not. Now you’ve got me all confused damnit.
Being myself a poor Canuck with flowers and bugs in my intentions and discovering that the hippie was dead and the yippie was born. Aye, lad……..may be a tad before yer time.<
Um, ok.
I was just now talking to an old friend on the phone in England about when I lived there and we hung out together, going through the whole, “hey, let’s get high, let’s score, let’s get straight, holy shit where are we gonna get money, can you fit through that window, ok, they’re gone let’s split- got the luggage, ouch that hurt I missed, boy does that gear suck, hey, you alright? Wake up.” (come to think of it, she’s mentioned briefly in this story at this link: http://www.drugwar.com/sitwspitonfloor.shtm) That sort of thing. Her brother has two kids, who when I last saw them one was a baby, a wee teeny thing and the little girl was just that, a little girl of 6. Now the baby is 12 and the little girl is databl…no, that’s not right, I didn’t mean that, I mean, she’s 16 now and apparently a cutey. Or something like that. Anyway, the point is not to imply pedophilia, as I’m not one who leans even remotely that way I’m really just scribbling silly nonsense at way too early a time of the morning, but rather to point out that I was suddenly feeling a little old. Or getting old. Or feeling my age no longer creeping but rather leaping up at me and grabbing ahold with a vengence. But then you write to remind me that there are others who can still tell me their memories are “a tad before my time” and that’s a good thing. So without even trying you passed on a good vibe to me, thanks kindly Ken.
;-))
BTW, when did you self-administer ibogaine? What form was it in? Did it help you attain what you were after, or give you what you were trying to find by doing it? Why did you take it three times? Where did you take it, if you don’t mind my asking all these questions. Was it helpful? When did you last take it, and how long did the “glow” (if you experienced any for that matter) last for you? Do you feel you got some lasting effects from taking ibogaine, anything either beneficial or harmful overall? Any longterm effects you’re still aware of at all?
Thanks for your time and for all the big smiles you keep giving me.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:31 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
>So what is politically correct here ?<
>.<
Again, you did it agAIN, you’ve made me laugh out loud.
I myself refuse to take responsibility for bringing life into this group
darn it.
Plenty enough as it is, I’m afraid I’d create one of those Frankenstein
monster things if I added yet more life to this here list.
Oh, and this is pretty off topic too I guess, sorta kinda.
Peace and love,
Preston
Ahh, come on Preston………..I don’t know your past on this group…but, I
got this here fuzzy feeling that you have some great potential as a story
teller. You got to admit…….there aren’t many (any) of us who haven’t got
a bucketful of bizarre storys……..that only ‘we’ may relate to.
I am waitin’ and no place to go for the minute.
BTW……what da bleedin’ ‘ell is this peace and love bit ? I remember
them symbolically burying the ‘hippie’ in SF
back on the eve of ’69/’70. Being myself a poor Canuck with flowers and
bugs in my intentions and discovering that the hippie was dead and the
yippie was born. Aye, lad……..may be a tad before yer time.
good regards…….Ken
………Ken
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 6:22:43 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
If the worm is
dead……….I do mean DEAD…chipping on a two day run is not the end of
the world……………………….once every….hmmmm, three months ? Oh
yeah, right, if you are one of those ‘higher power’ schmuck
believers…….well, you just tuck into your book of dreams and wallow in
your self imposed guilt. I have a real problem with that.<
While I suspect from the above that I’m not feeling quite so angry about things right this second, I pretty much agree with the above. I hate it when I find myself wallowing in that whole “feeling guilty for getting high” trip. It’s a major drag.
Oh, and come to think of it just now, I gotta say, a Higher Power? I don’t think I ever met a Power who really ever got much higher than I did. Ever.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Ken,
So sorry you converged upon us in the middle of our mini
lovefest……we’ll give you a two day warning when the formal one is
going
to be underway. I assume you were referring to yourself when you
mentioned
being able to “chip”. Personally I have always had issue with that
particular word. It sounds so casual,practically accidental and
unintentional. Almost dainty…like something you would do with your
pinky
extended. It’s like temporarily holding your brothers ice cream cone and
licking the melting drips. You can justify everyone of those licks as
harmless and necessary but the bottom line is you’re eating ice cream!
I’m
curious how long ago you did your sessions and at what intervals. And as
you
stated” that writhiring worm that has finally shut up” I feel can be force
fed and brought back to life. Maybe you’ve been doing this for years and
are o.k. I just don’t see it as my scenario. So how does someone do
three
ibogaine sessions and not only has no use for cyberhugs, regards and
acknowledgments but bahumbugs them? I feel it is quite possible that
these
things are one of the many things that have a hand in keeping me from
eating
ice cream cones!! Not to mention all the lovely sarcasm that gives me a
reason to get up in the morning.
Hope you find what you need. You get what you give. So don’t sit
back and wait to be entertained. Although Jasen’s last post made me laugh
way out loud!!
Ahhhhhhh………what ?
Three runs on the Ibogaine and I should …..what, want to hug YOU ?
For me ……..after 3 ‘redirections’ I found that I had finally killed the
‘worm’ that kept saying ….psssst Ken, pssssst Ken ,
feeeeeeeeeeeeeed me. Okay, but after a ‘sufficient number of months past it
might be time to time to ‘test’ the voice. We all know the old
rule…….not more than two days in a row……okay, okay……not more
than three days in a row. That three day run is pretty bloody concrete. Stop
or your are in for the next long haul. ANYTHING, such as stopping is better
than doing ibogaine AGAIN…………..It ain’t fun. If the worm is
dead……….I do mean DEAD…chipping on a two day run is not the end of
the world……………………….once every….hmmmm, three months ? Oh
yeah, right, if you are one of those ‘higher power’ schmuck
believers…….well, you just tuck into your book of dreams and wallow in
your self imposed guilt. I have a real problem with that.
Peace, flowers and bright green bugs……….Ken
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 19, 2005 at 4:34:06 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It is a shame about Providers but it’s just not always possible. So people
like me (and Adam and co.) end up doing it and not having good results.
That’s why I am examining every piece of info I get on here…..in case I
can’t get a provider by the time I want to do it again. I know it’s hard to
give people advice over the ‘net, but people are going to do it anyway.
Roll on Provider University
(As part of the medicine/healer course? Heh)
Kirsty
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 8:39 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
In a message dated 1/19/05 1:18:08 AM, keysers420@yahoo.com writes:
<< I wish it had worked and I know that she wants to get off. Im going to
try the ibogain next and try 6 or 7 grams and if doesnt work for me or I
get
the same phisical effects she got then we will go back to methodone and try
to
get some pure ibogain and try that.
One issue of doing it yourself is, at least in your case and that of your
girlfriend, of just guesing about doses. She took 3 grams and it didn’t
work and
you are going to try 6 or 7 grams. Can you give me some idea how these
doses
were decided on? Your girlfriend took too little apparently and for all you
know you are going to take too much. Didn’t any instructions or advice come
with the extract you purchased? The first priority is that you be safe.
Too
bad you couldn’t manage an experienced provider.
Howard
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—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 19, 2005 at 4:32:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Adam
I’ve been thinking of you and your girlfriend, im glad shes ok, do you think she will try it again??? let us know how you get on when you take it.
love donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 4:26:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
He Is still in there your husband, do you think he is feeling guilty because he let you down and lied to you??
Love Donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 4:22:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ken
Would you self administer ibogaine again????
From: Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 19, 2005 at 3:35:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Let me be a little more clear. Actualy I was wrong the guy from I begin again said that she should have taken 4 grams ..I think which is equivilent to 80mg of pure HCL. So I figure that I will start with one gram wait an hour and then take 4 more and if I need a booster later on Ill take it. I shure hope it works I dont want to go through it for nothing
Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com> wrote:
Good question. Im not to sure what is the right amount. From what I have read online about other people that have taken indra extract wich is 1/5 the strenght of pure iboga , I have heard people take from 3 to 5 grams I my girlfriend weights 110 and i weight 145. I Was talking to tHe guy that runs Ibeginagain who has done 300+ treatments and he said that she should have taken 5 grams, she took only 3 and she never even through up. So I guess Ill just cross my fingers when I take it
HSLotsof`aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/19/05 1:18:08 AM, keysers420@yahOo.com writes:3CBR>
26lt;< I wish it had worked and I know that she wants to get off. Im going to
try the ibogain next and try 6 or 7 grams and if doesnt work for me or I get
the same phisical effects she got then we will go back to methodone and try to
get some pure ibogain and try that.
>>
One issue of doing it yourself is, at least in your case and that of your
girlfriend, of just guesing about doses. She took 3 grams and it didn’t work and
you are going to try 6 or 7 grams. Can you give me some idea how these doses
were decided on? Your girlfriend took too little apparently and for all you
know you are going to take too much. Didn’t any instructions or advice come
with the extract you purchased? The first priority is that you be safe. Too
bad you couldn’t manage an experienced provider.
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! Get yours free!
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – You care about security. So do we.
From: Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 19, 2005 at 3:26:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Good question. Im not to sure what is the right amount. From what I have read online about other people that have taken indra extract wich is 1/5 the strenght of pure iboga , I have heard people take from 3 to 5 grams I my girlfriend weights 110 and I weight 145. I was talking to the guy that runs Ibeginagain who has done 300+ treatments and he said that she should have taken 5 grams, she took only 3 and she never even through up. So I guess Ill just cross my fingers when I take it
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/19/05 1:18:08 AM, keysers420@yahoo.com writes:
<< I wish it had worked and I know that she wants to get off. Im going to
try the ibogain next and try 6 or 7 grams and if doesnt work for me or I get
the same phisical effects she got then we will go back to methodone and try to
get some pure ibogain and try that.
>>
One issue of doing it yourself is, at least in your case and that of your
girlfriend, of just guesing about doses. She took 3 grams and it didn’t work and
you are going to try 6 or 7 grams. Can you give me some idea how these doses
were decided on? Your girlfriend took too little apparently and for all you
know you are going to take too much. Didn’t any instructions or advice come
with the extract you purchased? The first priority is that you be safe. Too
bad you couldn’t manage an experienced provider.
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! Get yours free!
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 19, 2005 at 2:39:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/19/05 1:18:08 AM, keysers420@yahoo.com writes:
<< I wish it had worked and I know that she wants to get off. Im going to
try the ibogain next and try 6 or 7 grams and if doesnt work for me or I get
the same phisical effects she got then we will go back to methodone and try to
get some pure ibogain and try that.
One issue of doing it yourself is, at least in your case and that of your
girlfriend, of just guesing about doses. She took 3 grams and it didn’t work and
you are going to try 6 or 7 grams. Can you give me some idea how these doses
were decided on? Your girlfriend took too little apparently and for all you
know you are going to take too much. Didn’t any instructions or advice come
with the extract you purchased? The first priority is that you be safe. Too
bad you couldn’t manage an experienced provider.
Howard
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 1:48:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
ken,
You either get it or you don’t. Like it or you don’t. Want to respond or you don’t. There does exist a way to respond without attacking people. I was just asking and a lot of times what’s written to one persons query may not do a damn thing for them but possibly some of the many voyeurs on the site or others get something. Kind of like a sense of community, ever heard of it. I could have called you a condescending, pathological angry schmuck that should not be let off the leash for the sake of mankind… however I didn’t. So you can take all your preconceived stereotypical therories with you on your quest for that giant ass kicking you appear to be looking for. Oh and if you come across any guilt while you’re looking send some this way because I DON’T HAVE ANY!!
Regards, Martee
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Ken,
So sorry you converged upon us in the middle of our mini
lovefest……we’ll give you a two day warning when the formal one is
going
to be underway. I assume you were referring to yourself when you
mentioned
being able to “chip”. Personally I have always had issue with that
particular word. It sounds so casual,practically accidental and
unintentional. Almost dainty…like something you would do with your
pinky
extended. It’s like temporarily holding your brothers ice cream cone and
licking the melting drips. You can justify everyone of those licks as
harmless and necessary but the bottom line is you’re eating ice cream!
I’m
curious how long ago you did your sessions and at what intervals. And as
you
stated” that writhiring worm that has finally shut up” I feel can be force
fed and brought back to life. Maybe you’ve been doing this for years and
are o.k. I just don’t see it as my scenario. So how does someone do
three
ibogaine sessions and not only has no use for cyberhugs, regards and
acknowledgments but bahumbugs them? I feel it is quite possible that
these
things are one of the many things that have a hand in keeping me from
eating
ice cream cones!! Not to mention all the lovely sarcasm that gives me a
reason to get up in the morning.
Hope you find what you need. You get what you give. So don’t sit
back and wait to be entertained. Although Jasen’s last post made me laugh
way out loud!!
Ahhhhhhh………what ?
Three runs on the Ibogaine and I should …..what, want to hug YOU ?
For me ……..after 3 ‘redirections’ I found that I had finally killed the
‘worm’ that kept saying ….psssst Ken, pssssst Ken ,
feeeeeeeeeeeeeed me. Okay, but after a ‘sufficient number of months past it
might be time to time to ‘test’ the voice. We all know the old
rule…….not more than two days in a row……okay, okay……not more
than three days in a row. That three day run is pretty bloody concrete. Stop
or your are in for the next long haul. ANYTHING, such as stopping is better
than doing ibogaine AGAIN…………..It ain’t fun. If the worm is
dead……….I do mean DEAD…chipping on a two day run is not the end of
the world……………………….once every….hmmmm, three months ? Oh
yeah, right, if you are one of those ‘higher power’ schmuck
believers…….well, you just tuck into your book of dreams and wallow in
your self imposed guilt. I have a real problem with that.
Peace, flowers and bright green bugs……….Ken
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 1:43:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ken, most of us are born again Bwiti’s round here.
From the Iboganauts tradition.
And also some of the people here are not yet born again Bwiti’s.
at least we don’t walk with white pain on our faces, we talk symbolically
and there are no answers back.
Free,free yourself from… love fests, support groups, verbal abuse,
messianic complexes,
guardian angels…
And
What ever … simply folks who are ………Interesting, irreverent,
irresolute,
irrestible,
irrepressible,irreplevisable,irrepealable,irremissable,irrelievable
or those simply suffering from irregularity at the Hospital or at home…
and those who feel feed to write …
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: ….Ken [mailto:chayco@island.net]
Verzonden: woensdag 19 januari 2005 6:43
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
this list is an odd creature… different things to different people. odds
are if you look hard enough, you’d be able to find anything you want in
it… love fests, support groups, verbal abuse, messianic complexes,
guardian angels…
what exactly are you looking for?
Ohh, simply folks who are ………Interesting, irreverent, irresolute,
irrestible,
irrepressible,irreplevisable,irrepealable,irremissable,irrelievable
or those simply suffering from irregularity.
………Ken
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From: Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 19, 2005 at 1:17:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think she wants to quit but she realy didnt want to do the ibogain thing that day. But during the ibogain she said that she look at her life or saw it or something and she cryed and she was talking about how she was so sick of her life and what she was doing to herself and how she wants to quit. She said that she wishes that she didnt do any so soon before she had done the treetment, and the only reason she took some 20 hours in ( which was a very small amount) was because she had been crying because of the pain for 20 hours. I know that she tryed to give it her all, I wanted to be mad at her for doing H and giveing up I couldnt because I was there and know how hard she tryed to make it work during those 20 hours. I wish it had worked and I know that she wants to get off. Im going to try the ibogain next and try 6 or 7 grams and if doesnt work for me or I get the same phisical effects she got then we will go back to methodone and try to get some pure ibogain and try that.
Kirsty Sutherland <captkirk@kol.co.nz> wrote:
Hi Adam,
I might be totally off base here, but does your gf really want to quit? Sounds like she might need to do some head work first
. I just get a feeling shes not quite ready. I mean, ,most of us get to a stage where were sick of relying on something to get us thru the day, and the WDs etc, but unless youre ready to change things, nothing is going to work, really
.
Just a thought
.perhaps you can talk to her about this? Are you guys in any rehab group/therapy etc, something to help afterwards
I reckon you need something to reinforce a change in lifestyle
Ok, forget all this if Im wrong!!
With luff n lite
Kirsty
From: Adam [mailto:keysers420@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 6:52 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
To answer some of your questions the three grams did hold off the withdraws for a while for about 20 hours. We split half a gram a day normaly, the amount of H she did during the ibogain treetment was a dollar worth a tenth of a $10 bag. She didnt taper down and now admits that she snuck some, she says a little but I didnt see, 3 hours before the treetment started ( maybe thats what caused the pain, but when she took a little durning the treetment it seemd to help the pain) she weights 105 which is a healthy weight for her size shes a dancer. She didnt want to take anymore iboga even if it helped the withdraws because she thought it was poisoning her and causing pain, and since she had been into the prosses for 20+ hours she wanted to sleep and try again at a later date so she waited 6 hours after she took the H during the iboga treetment took some more ( a very small amount) took some zanex and valium and went to sleep woke up and felt alot better. She is back to normal now and will try again soon.
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Did the 3 grams of indra hold off your girlfriend’s withdrawal
symptoms at all? How much heroin was she on? Did she try to taper
down in advance? When was the last dose of heroin before the
ibogaine dose? How much does she weigh? This information would give
an indication of how effective that dose of ibogaine was.
**Speaking purely from what I have read,** it seems like the rule
of thumb is to give more ibogaine if withdrawal symptoms appear.
The critical question would seem to be, now that some heroin has
been added to the mix: how much heroin did she take, and how long
ago?
It may be that there just wasn’t enough ibogaine to do the job.
This doesn’t mean that your girlfriend can’t do it on her own
still. In the end it has to be your and her decision.
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 19, 2005 at 1:05:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Adam,
I might be totally off base here, but does your gf really want to quit? Sounds like she might need to do some head work first…. I just get a feeling she’s not quite ready. I mean, ,most of us get to a stage where we’re sick of relying on something to get us thru the day, and the WD’s etc, but unless you’re ready to change things, nothing is going to work, really….
Just a thought….perhaps you can talk to her about this? Are you guys in any rehab group/therapy etc, something to help afterwards……I reckon you need something to reinforce a change in lifestyle…
Ok, forget all this if I’m wrong!!
With luff n lite
Kirsty
From: Adam [mailto:keysers420@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 6:52 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
To answer some of your questions the three grams did hold off the withdraws for a while for about 20 hours. We split half a gram a day normaly, the amount of H she did during the ibogain treetment was a dollar worth a tenth of a $10 bag. She didnt taper down and now admits that she snuck some, she says a little but I didnt see, 3 hours before the treetment started ( maybe thats what caused the pain, but when she took a little durning the treetment it seemd to help the pain) she weights 105 which is a healthy weight for her size shes a dancer. She didnt want to take anymore iboga even if it helped the withdraws because she thought it was poisoning her and causing pain, and since she had been into the prosses for 20+ hours she wanted to sleep and try again at a later date so she waited 6 hours after she took the H during the iboga treetment took some more ( a very small amount) took some zanex and valium and went to sleep woke up and felt alot better. She is back to normal now and will try again soon.
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Did the 3 grams of indra hold off your girlfriend’s withdrawal
symptoms at all? How much heroin was she on? Did she try to taper
down in advance? When was the last dose of heroin before the
ibogaine dose? How much does she weigh? This information would give
an indication of how effective that dose of ibogaine was.
**Speaking purely from what I have read,** it seems like the rule
of thumb is to give more ibogaine if withdrawal symptoms appear.
The critical question would seem to be, now that some heroin has
been added to the mix: how much heroin did she take, and how long
ago?
It may be that there just wasn’t enough ibogaine to do the job.
This doesn’t mean that your girlfriend can’t do it on her own
still. In the end it has to be your and her decision.
__________________________________________________
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From: Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 19, 2005 at 12:52:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To answer some of your questions the three grams did hold off the withdraws for a while for about 20 hours. We split half a gram a day normaly, the amount of H she did during the ibogain treetment was a dollar worth a tenth of a $10 bag. She didnt taper down and now admits that she snuck some, she says a little but I didnt see, 3 hours before the treetment started ( maybe thats what caused the pain, but when she took a little durning the treetment it seemd to help the pain) she weights 105 which is a healthy weight for her size shes a dancer. She didnt want to take anymore iboga even if it helped the withdraws because she thought it was poisoning her and causing pain, and since she had been into the prosses for 20+ hours she wanted to sleep and try again at a later date so she waited 6 hours after she took the H during the iboga treetment took some more ( a very small amount) took some zanex and valium and went to sleep woke up and felt alot better. She is back to normal now and will try again soon.
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
Did the 3 grams of indra hold off your girlfriend’s withdrawal
symptoms at all? How much heroin was she on? Did she try to taper
down in advance? When was the last dose of heroin before the
ibogaine dose? How much does she weigh? This information would give
an indication of how effective that dose of ibogaine was.
**Speaking purely from what I have read,** it seems like the rule
of thumb is to give more ibogaine if withdrawal symptoms appear.
The critical question would seem to be, now that some heroin has
been added to the mix: how much heroin did she take, and how long
ago?
It may be that there just wasn’t enough ibogaine to do the job.
This doesn’t mean that your girlfriend can’t do it on her own
still. In the end it has to be your and her decision.
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 12:42:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
this list is an odd creature… different things to different people. odds
are if you look hard enough, you’d be able to find anything you want in
it… love fests, support groups, verbal abuse, messianic complexes,
guardian angels…
what exactly are you looking for?
Ohh, simply folks who are ………Interesting, irreverent, irresolute,
irrestible,
irrepressible,irreplevisable,irrepealable,irremissable,irrelievable
or those simply suffering from irregularity.
………Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Update on how everything went with my girlfriend
Date: January 19, 2005 at 12:36:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi its Adam, just to let you know she wasnt able to kick. I dont know if the indra product is old or if she is elergic or just sensitive… but she said that the iboga was poisoning her her whole body hurt her skin her joints her bones… she said it felt alot like how you feel after taking acide ( how the stricknine poision they use to perserve lsd effects the body). I gave her 3 grams and she didnt want to take anymore. She said she was sure it was not withdraw she was feeling but the iboga, which is werid because I have never heard of anyone having an experince like that. But she has gone through withdraw before and knows what it feels like. I do believe that even if it was causeing her discomfort she still did not take enough iboga becasue she was withdrawing near the end 20 hours into the kick. So after 20 hours of crying about the unbarable pain she snuck a little heroin…. which she said helped alot but her skin still hurt. One positve is that she only needs a fifth of what she use to need to get by.. she wants to try and lower her level even more and try again in a week. we have 17grams left. Im going to try to take 6 in a couple days and see if I experience what she did and if it works for me the she will take it again.. thanks for your concern everyone 93
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 12:23:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hey Ken,
Give us a hug mate. 🙂
Here,..you will find the all of it,..everything
you mentioned.
Politically,…nothing is correct.
You sound interesting,..it would
be nice to hear your story.
Lets touch on the subject. 🙂
All in good humor.
with love,..Jasen. Mmmm 🙂
Spending too many years in SE Asia……..I have drank with a lot of them Oz
fellers. Damned good blokes to drink with. Spend an hour with ’em and they
will fight the biggest arsehole in the bar for you. Their judgement might be
suspect, but gawd damned good mates to be sure !
We don’t hug much up North.
I know a wee bit about the politics of who produced when and who is
producing now in SE Asia.
Gawdamned politics………..but we are here to talk about
IBOGAINE………and recovery. To give hope to those who are wired and
looking fo a chance to have ……options.
Bleedin’ problem is……….being straight, for prolonged periods is simply
…..less than ‘interesting’. War stories are always a better
sell……………..unless you are selling ibogaine (which I have done).
regards…..Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 12:09:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Ken,
So sorry you converged upon us in the middle of our mini
lovefest……we’ll give you a two day warning when the formal one is
going
to be underway. I assume you were referring to yourself when you
mentioned
being able to “chip”. Personally I have always had issue with that
particular word. It sounds so casual,practically accidental and
unintentional. Almost dainty…like something you would do with your
pinky
extended. It’s like temporarily holding your brothers ice cream cone and
licking the melting drips. You can justify everyone of those licks as
harmless and necessary but the bottom line is you’re eating ice cream!
I’m
curious how long ago you did your sessions and at what intervals. And as
you
stated” that writhiring worm that has finally shut up” I feel can be force
fed and brought back to life. Maybe you’ve been doing this for years and
are o.k. I just don’t see it as my scenario. So how does someone do
three
ibogaine sessions and not only has no use for cyberhugs, regards and
acknowledgments but bahumbugs them? I feel it is quite possible that
these
things are one of the many things that have a hand in keeping me from
eating
ice cream cones!! Not to mention all the lovely sarcasm that gives me a
reason to get up in the morning.
Hope you find what you need. You get what you give. So don’t sit
back and wait to be entertained. Although Jasen’s last post made me laugh
way out loud!!
Ahhhhhhh………what ?
Three runs on the Ibogaine and I should …..what, want to hug YOU ?
For me ……..after 3 ‘redirections’ I found that I had finally killed the
‘worm’ that kept saying ….psssst Ken, pssssst Ken ,
feeeeeeeeeeeeeed me. Okay, but after a ‘sufficient number of months past it
might be time to time to ‘test’ the voice. We all know the old
rule…….not more than two days in a row……okay, okay……not more
than three days in a row. That three day run is pretty bloody concrete. Stop
or your are in for the next long haul. ANYTHING, such as stopping is better
than doing ibogaine AGAIN…………..It ain’t fun. If the worm is
dead……….I do mean DEAD…chipping on a two day run is not the end of
the world……………………….once every….hmmmm, three months ? Oh
yeah, right, if you are one of those ‘higher power’ schmuck
believers…….well, you just tuck into your book of dreams and wallow in
your self imposed guilt. I have a real problem with that.
Peace, flowers and bright green bugs……….Ken
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 12:04:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
BTW……what da bleedin’ ‘ell is this peace and love bit ? Ken
Good god, I never realised I was fraternising with a bunch of bloody
hippies!! Fucksake that goes right against my gun toting, war mongering
attitudes!!!
I do apologise for this bunch, Ken, I think most of em just had far too much
LSD in past times.
So,
Um…
War and hate to ya, ya ole bugger!
;o)
Kirsty (the bloody ole Kiwi)
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From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 19, 2005 at 12:03:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hmmmm……?
So this ibogaine forum is a touchy/ feely/let’s hug kind of place ?
Any ibogaine group that discussing the grittier side of recovery,
potential
and real problems of ibogaine and folks with compromised health ?
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three self
administered ibogaine sessions…….and not interested in
hugs……….am
I looking at the wrong site?
Advice appreciated……..Ken
this list is an odd creature… different things to different people. odds
are if you look hard enough, you’d be able to find anything you want in
it… love fests, support groups, verbal abuse, messianic complexes,
guardian angels…
what exactly are you looking for?
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 11:51:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:31 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
So what is politically correct here ?<
.<
Again, you did it agAIN, you’ve made me laugh out loud.
I myself refuse to take responsibility for bringing life into this group
darn it.
Plenty enough as it is, I’m afraid I’d create one of those Frankenstein
monster things if I added yet more life to this here list.
Oh, and this is pretty off topic too I guess, sorta kinda.
Peace and love,
Preston
Ahh, come on Preston………..I don’t know your past on this group…but, I
got this here fuzzy feeling that you have some great potential as a story
teller. You got to admit…….there aren’t many (any) of us who haven’t got
a bucketful of bizarre storys……..that only ‘we’ may relate to.
I am waitin’ and no place to go for the minute.
BTW……what da bleedin’ ‘ell is this peace and love bit ? I remember
them symbolically burying the ‘hippie’ in SF
back on the eve of ’69/’70. Being myself a poor Canuck with flowers and
bugs in my intentions and discovering that the hippie was dead and the
yippie was born. Aye, lad……..may be a tad before yer time.
good regards…….Ken
………Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Touch me, Feel me
Date: January 18, 2005 at 11:50:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Fark me, any good looking single males out there are MORE THAN WELCOME TO
COME HERE AND TOUCH/FEEL ME!!!
Ok, got that off my mind…….and to the rest of the group, HOW DARE YOU BE
HUGGY WUGGY ON AN IBOGAINE SITE!!!! TSK TSK!! I ask for more snarly
warlies and eyebrow raising. Can’t have anymore nicey wicey’s.
Kirky Wirky
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 11:21:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ken,
So sorry you converged upon us in the middle of our mini lovefest……we’ll give you a two day warning when the formal one is going to be underway. I assume you were referring to yourself when you mentioned being able to “chip”. Personally I have always had issue with that particular word. It sounds so casual,practically accidental and unintentional. Almost dainty…like something you would do with your pinky extended. It’s like temporarily holding your brothers ice cream cone and licking the melting drips. You can justify everyone of those licks as harmless and necessary but the bottom line is you’re eating ice cream! I’m curious how long ago you did your sessions and at what intervals. And as you stated” that writhiring worm that has finally shut up” I feel can be force fed and brought back to life. Maybe you’ve been doing this for years and are o.k. I just don’t see it as my scenario. So how does someone do three ibogaine sessions and not only has no use for cyberhugs, regards and acknowledgments but bahumbugs them? I feel it is quite possible that these things are one of the many things that have a hand in keeping me from eating ice cream cones!! Not to mention all the lovely sarcasm that gives me a reason to get up in the morning.
Hope you find what you need. You get what you give. So don’t sit back and wait to be entertained. Although Jasen’s last post made me laugh way out loud!!
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a newly re-surfaced
vein… must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a ‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me ……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would stretch out my arms for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all ‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this group.
regards……..Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Andrea Wellman <crazyhazeyworld@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 11:00:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey, I’m sorta new at this, so I’m not sure if i’m doing this right. I wanted to reply to this particular message “misstyfyd” i was a good student, and a star athlete in high school. After I graduated I experimented with all sorts of drugs. I was the most addicted to heroin (for obvious reasons). I soon after dropped out of high school. i blamed everyone around me. Looking at my friends then (even the clean ones) made me cringe because I couldn’t stand the thought of those memories. I lost friends. But, it’s what i needed to do. For myself. I don’t know what your husband is feeling but I just wanted to tell you this. maybe it will help? later, andrea
From:
Misstyfyd@aol.com
Date:
Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:33:03 EST
To:
ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject:
Re: [Ibogaine] free
HTML Attachment [ Download File | Save to my Yahoo! Briefcase ]
ummm… actually, I’m here secondhand, and it would appear that the guy who was babysitting his girlfriend through her ibogaine treatment is also a second-hander. I have a husband who announced that he was addicted to heroine a month after we married (he was Very good at the game), and now he is on methadone. Obviously not the man i thought that i married, and now, of course he’s wanting to divorce me. I have seen changes in a beautiful human being over the course of our short time together (5 years, 3 married) and i believe he’s in there somewhere. I just was curious as to if anyone ever comes out of it retaining some essence of their prior self, and you guys are the first group of people i’ve found who had a problem, but somehow, still have a conscience. (i reallllllly don’t mean that offensively) My husband will not talk to me now (it’s been 6 months since he moved in with his parents), because of all the bad that he associates me with (i was not a doper, but i was there to hold his hand, and he can’t look at me or talk to me now), but somehow, reading what you guys write, the feelings that you are able to put in to words, brings me some kind of hope (this is my crazy substitute for Narc-anon, or whatever). Maybe this all falls under the category of TMI (too much information), but thanks! I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.
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From: Misstyfyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 10:33:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
ummm… actually, I’m here secondhand, and it would appear that the guy who was babysitting his girlfriend through her ibogaine treatment is also a second-hander. I have a husband who announced that he was addicted to heroine a month after we married (he was Very good at the game), and now he is on methadone. Obviously not the man i thought that i married, and now, of course he’s wanting to divorce me. I have seen changes in a beautiful human being over the course of our short time together (5 years, 3 married) and i believe he’s in there somewhere. I just was curious as to if anyone ever comes out of it retaining some essence of their prior self, and you guys are the first group of people i’ve found who had a problem, but somehow, still have a conscience. (i reallllllly don’t mean that offensively) My husband will not talk to me now (it’s been 6 months since he moved in with his parents), because of all the bad that he associates me with (i was not a doper, but i was there to hold his hand, and he can’t look at me or talk to me now), but somehow, reading what you guys write, the feelings that you are able to put in to words, brings me some kind of hope (this is my crazy substitute for Narc-anon, or whatever). Maybe this all falls under the category of TMI (too much information), but thanks! I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 10:31:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
So what is politically correct here ?<
LOL, you’re going from funny to hilarious Ken.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this group.<
Again, you did it agAIN, you’ve made me laugh out loud.
I myself refuse to take responsibility for bringing life into this group darn it.
Plenty enough as it is, I’m afraid I’d create one of those Frankenstein monster things if I added yet more life to this here list.
Oh, and this is pretty off topic too I guess, sorta kinda.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a newly re-surfaced
vein… must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a ‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me ……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would stretch out my arms for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all ‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this group.
regards……..Ken
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From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 10:31:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 04:24 PM, ….Ken wrote:
So what is politically correct here ?
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html :
-=/[ List Rules ]/=-
Do What Thou Wilt
Other than all that, try not to act like an asshole. If you are an asshole, just, pretend that you’re cool. Act AS IF and become.
Don’t spam the list with commercial ads (unless you give us kickbacks).
-=/[ Terms and Conditions (TOS) ]/=-
We are Completely Incompetent Idiots, who are Terrible People,
Stuck in a Perpetual Cycle of doing Really Awful Things.
Nothing, at all, ever, is our fault.
-=/[ Disclaimer ]/=-
MindVox is Completely Devoid of Fluffy Vapid Recovery Drivel
If you can’t handle people being real, this is probably not the place for you.
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 10:26:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
yer gonna get both hugs and kicks in the teeth here Ken, so hang around. Depending on my mood, there’s always something here for me, either hugs or kicks, and I sometimes appreciate them, sometimes not.
But it’s for sure not always hugs here, although most of us do try to be huggy and positive and such, despite all the horror and misadventures we’ve, or at least I’ve put myself through while pursuing a career in drugs, use and reform.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hmmmm……?
So this ibogaine forum is a touchy/ feely/let’s hug kind of place ?
Any ibogaine group that discussing the grittier side of recovery, potential
and real problems of ibogaine and folks with compromised health ?
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three self
administered ibogaine sessions…….and not interested in hugs……….am
I looking at the wrong site?
Advice appreciated……..Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Julian ,
Are you free from the Hospital? I’m think about you a lot.
I like to wish you a quick recovery.
All the best.
Sara
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free? sorry my mistake
Date: January 18, 2005 at 10:04:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sorry my mistake, I hit by mistake a key that sent my E-Mail
it was not my intention to send an answer, I was just collecting some
expressions :
crawl onto the crapper
delerium of nausea wash
bleedin’ ‘ happy’
fucking CURED
‘writhing worm’
Francis
God bless
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 9:56:42 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a newly re-surfaced
vein… must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a ‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me ……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would stretch out my arms
for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all ‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this group.
regards……..Ken
crawl onto the crapper
delerium of nausea wash
bleedin’ ‘ happy’
fucking CURED
‘writhing worm’
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 9:42:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Ken,
Give us a hug mate. 🙂
Here,..you will find the all of it,..everything
you mentioned.
Politically,…nothing is correct.
You sound interesting,..it would
be nice to hear your story.
Lets touch on the subject. 🙂
All in good humor.
with love,..Jasen. Mmmm 🙂
—– Original Message —– From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a newly re-surfaced
vein… must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a ‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me ……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would stretch out my arms for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all ‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this group.
regards……..Ken
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 9:24:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “D H” <dave@phantom.com>
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a newly re-surfaced
vein… must touch and feel…
Hello ….. all ?
Ahhhh……..geez………..maybe I have touched a ‘vein’ ?
There seems to be life in this group after all.
So what is politically correct here ?
Stories of the ‘life’?
Stories of trying to crawl onto the crapper in a delerium of nausea wash
from ibogaine?
Stories of how bleedin’ ‘ happy’ we are?
Stories about the fact that the ‘writhing worm’ in our guts (who knows our
name) has finally shut up and quit saying ‘feed me ……feed me’ ?
Stories about how we are so fucking CURED……that we can still
‘chip’……..just a little bit?
Come on ……… I am reaching out here….I would stretch out my arms for
a hug….if I didn’t truely believe that all ‘huggers’ are really hiding
some machiavellian, perverted sexual fantasy……..not you in particular
gentle reader.
I expect that a personal experience with ibogaine has brought us all here.
It is a gawddamned wonderful thing.
BTW……my personal experiences include considerable time (years) in
Southeast Asia.
Now it is YOUR turn to bring some life into this group.
regards……..Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 8:44:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Jan 18, 2005, at 8:12 PM, ….Ken wrote:
Hmmmm……?
So this ibogaine forum is a touchy/ feely/let’s hug kind of place ?
Welcome to MindVox! <Group Hug>
<Handing you a Flower … It’s Pretty!>
<Radiating Positive Energy>
Patrick
MindVox Transcendental Enlightenment Temple / Heroin Maintenance Clinic
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From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 8:44:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
BTW,
sounds like you’ve made it thru the thick.
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three self
administered ibogaine sessions
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 8:33:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You made a funny joke 🙂
.:vector:.
— “….Ken” <chayco@island.net> wrote:
Hmmmm……?
So this ibogaine forum is a touchy/ feely/let’s hug kind of place ?
Any ibogaine group that discussing the grittier side of recovery,
potential
and real problems of ibogaine and folks with compromised health ?
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three
self
administered ibogaine sessions…….and not interested in
hugs……….am
I looking at the wrong site?
Advice appreciated……..Ken
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
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From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 8:34:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
ROFLMAO.
“touchy feely”…
would you like to touch and feel my absess scars and track marx? … or perhaps my gums where I used to have teeth?
</end sarcastic wise-ass remark #2937541>
well, you’ve come to the right place. we get all types here, about 10% of the info posted here is relevant to any one person at any one time. on a good daY. myself included.
then again, i can only speak for myself.
best way… is start a thread you’d like to hear more on… and see what happens. add a few provocative words or phrases and you’re sure to get a response, probably.
there’s a lot of people in lurk mode here… every once and a while one of us will crawl out from under our keyboards and say something profound and useful, or, maybe not.
in the meantime, the delete key comes in handy.
you’ll have to excuse me… I just discovered a newly re-surfaced vein… must touch and feel…
_.dh
On Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 03:12 PM, ….Ken wrote:
Hmmmm……?
So this ibogaine forum is a touchy/ feely/let’s hug kind of place ?
Any ibogaine group that discussing the grittier side of recovery, potential
and real problems of ibogaine and folks with compromised health ?
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three self
administered ibogaine sessions…….and not interested in hugs……….am
I looking at the wrong site?
Advice appreciated……..Ken
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “….Ken” <chayco@island.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 8:12:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hmmmm……?
So this ibogaine forum is a touchy/ feely/let’s hug kind of place ?
Any ibogaine group that discussing the grittier side of recovery, potential
and real problems of ibogaine and folks with compromised health ?
I am a beat up old chap that survived the ‘life’ and survived three self
administered ibogaine sessions…….and not interested in hugs……….am
I looking at the wrong site?
Advice appreciated……..Ken
—– Original Message —–
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Julian ,
Are you free from the Hospital? I’m think about you a lot.
I like to wish you a quick recovery.
All the best.
Sara
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 18, 2005 at 5:04:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Julian ,
Are you free from the Hospital? I’m think about you a lot.
I like to wish you a quick recovery.
All the best.
Sara
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dear Martee/Jasen
Date: January 18, 2005 at 12:30:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jasen,
The power of Love, Brings peace and smiles. Keep vibing high.
Martee
— Original Message —– From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dear Martee
I love ya too Martee.
Jasen. 🙂
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dear Martee
Martee,
I don’t think you have ever offended me. I hold you
in high regard, and respect you opinions and input to
this list….
I’m thinking of coming down in February, but am unsure
if I can arrange all the logistics. I might have to
work…
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dear Martee
Date: January 18, 2005 at 12:17:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I love ya too Martee.
Jasen. 🙂
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dear Martee
Martee,
I don’t think you have ever offended me. I hold you
in high regard, and respect you opinions and input to
this list….
I’m thinking of coming down in February, but am unsure
if I can arrange all the logistics. I might have to
work…
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] nail in the brain- how’d that get there?
Date: January 17, 2005 at 8:44:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pretty easy I reckon, the nail gun would have gone off…..it would have
felt like one hell of a sting to the face…but if you didn’t realise
something had gone in there, you wouldn’t think anything of it!! Pretty
bizarre, yes, but hey, some women have had babies and not known they are
pregnant, so this is nothing really LOL
Kirk
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 18 January 2005 2:51 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com; drugwar@mindvox.com; Newsroom-L
Subject: [Ibogaine] nail in the brain- how’d that get there?
This is a bit off topic for some of these lists, (and I apologize for cross
posting if it bothers anyone) but I just had to forward this one on to you
all:
Cause of Man’s Toothache? A 4-Inch Nail
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 17, 2005
LITTLETON, Colo., Jan. 16 (AP) – A dentist found the source of the toothache
Patrick Lawler was complaining about on the roof of his mouth: a four-inch
nail he had unknowingly embedded in his skull six days earlier.
snip-
How in the heck did this guy not know he’d shot himself in the face? Egad.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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—
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
—
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] nail in the brain- how’d that get there?
Date: January 17, 2005 at 8:51:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>, “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is a bit off topic for some of these lists, (and I apologize for cross posting if it bothers anyone) but I just had to forward this one on to you all:
Cause of Man’s Toothache? A 4-Inch Nail
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 17, 2005
LITTLETON, Colo., Jan. 16 (AP) – A dentist found the source of the toothache Patrick Lawler was complaining about on the roof of his mouth: a four-inch nail he had unknowingly embedded in his skull six days earlier.
snip-
How in the heck did this guy not know he’d shot himself in the face? Egad.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 17, 2005 at 5:53:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sorry Ekki that was to adam
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 17, 2005 at 5:52:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ekki
Hows your girlfriend?? Ive just read she had a bad time of it, I really hope she is ok, please let me know
Love Donna
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 17, 2005 at 5:17:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 17, 2005 at 4:14:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Adam, if you like you can call me at 31—346-241770 .
Van: Adam [mailto:keysers420@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: maandag 17 januari 2005 2:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
I read the help log and need help still. My girlfriend is on Iboga to break her heroin addiction and Im readly worryed about her its not working can anyone help? First her whole body hurts to where she has been crying for the last day . she has had to do a small amount of heroin to deal with it. Because the pain was waaaay too much .she has taken 3 grams so far of indra extract 24 hours ago and even thought it almost seems like its killing her she wants to kick the addiction so bad she wants to take the last gram after sleeping a little. what should I do she I not let her take it will it even help her since she just did a small amount of heroin …. did doing a small amount ruin the whole thing?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 17, 2005 at 4:11:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
She should take the one gram and start breathing deep counting slowly to 10, focus of her breathing only and if posible breath out loud with her.
That three gram will not kill her, but that is one reason not to experiment on your own.
Wish you well.
Sara
Van: Adam [mailto:keysers420@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: maandag 17 januari 2005 2:14
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
I read the help log and need help still. My girlfriend is on Iboga to break her heroin addiction and Im readly worryed about her its not working can anyone help? First her whole body hurts to where she has been crying for the last day . she has had to do a small amount of heroin to deal with it. Because the pain was waaaay too much .she has taken 3 grams so far of indra extract 24 hours ago and even thought it almost seems like its killing her she wants to kick the addiction so bad she wants to take the last gram after sleeping a little. what should I do she I not let her take it will it even help her since she just did a small amount of heroin …. did doing a small amount ruin the whole thing?
__________________________________________________
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 17, 2005 at 2:41:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
i hope everything goes well and i wish you good luck.
i believe iboga will help and do some cleaning, even it may take a few days before she realizes it.
maybe it wasn´t enough and she needs a second treatment after some rest. mixing with opiates can be lethal.
i´m planing to treat my friend, too, either sara will do it or i have to do it myself (depending on money), so i´d like to hear how this turns out.
best wishes, ekki
Am 17.01.2005 um 02:13 schrieb Adam:
I read the help log and need help still. My girlfriend is on Iboga to break her heroin addiction and Im readly worryed about her its not working can anyone help? First her whole body hurts to where she has been crying for the last day . she has had to do a small amount of heroin to deal with it. Because the pain was waaaay too much .she has taken 3 grams so far of indra extract 24 hours ago and even thought it almost seems like its killing her she wants to kick the addiction so bad she wants to take the last gram after sleeping a little. what should I do she I not let her take it will it even help her since she just did a small amount of heroin …. did doing a small amount ruin the whole thing?
__________________________________________________
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 17, 2005 at 1:23:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Did the 3 grams of indra hold off your girlfriend’s withdrawal
symptoms at all? How much heroin was she on? Did she try to taper
down in advance? When was the last dose of heroin before the
ibogaine dose? How much does she weigh? This information would give
an indication of how effective that dose of ibogaine was.
**Speaking purely from what I have read,** it seems like the rule
of thumb is to give more ibogaine if withdrawal symptoms appear.
The critical question would seem to be, now that some heroin has
been added to the mix: how much heroin did she take, and how long
ago?
It may be that there just wasn’t enough ibogaine to do the job.
This doesn’t mean that your girlfriend can’t do it on her own
still. In the end it has to be your and her decision.
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:13:34 -0800 Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I read the help log and need help still. My girlfriend is on Iboga
to break her heroin addiction and Im readly worryed about her its
not working can anyone help? First her whole body hurts to where
she has been crying for the last day . she has had to do a small
amount of heroin to deal with it. Because the pain was waaaay too
much .she has taken 3 grams so far of indra extract 24 hours ago
and even thought it almost seems like its killing her she wants to
kick the addiction so bad she wants to take the last gram after
sleeping a little. what should I do she I not let her take it
will it even help her since she just did a small amount of heroin
…. did doing a small amount ruin the whole thing?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 16, 2005 at 10:03:59 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I just remember,heroin can mask some pain and as soon the body start to detox the pain come back. Now for sure she can’t take heroine , will be very dangerous. From an E-mail I read a couple month ago, she can smoke some pot. Nobody died in the last 40 years after 24 hours.
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: The Garden
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Hi !!
I am not an expert but she should be OK.
How is a her health ? specialy heart and liver ?
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
I’m not an expert but I would NOT let her do any more Heroin. NONE. She could die like that. Ibogaine lowers the tolerence level and ANY amount is dangerous. Let me make a phone call. Randy
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 16, 2005 at 9:36:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi !!
I am not an expert but she should be OK.
How is a her health ? specialy heart and liver ?
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
I’m not an expert but I would NOT let her do any more Heroin. NONE. She could die like that. Ibogaine lowers the tolerence level and ANY amount is dangerous. Let me make a phone call. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 16, 2005 at 8:57:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m not an expert but I would NOT let her do any more Heroin. NONE. She could die like that. Ibogaine lowers the tolerence level and ANY amount is dangerous. Let me make a phone call. Randy
From: Adam <keysers420@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Can I post a Question to this mail group
Date: January 16, 2005 at 8:13:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I read the help log and need help still. My girlfriend is on Iboga to break her heroin addiction and Im readly worryed about her its not working can anyone help? First her whole body hurts to where she has been crying for the last day . she has had to do a small amount of heroin to deal with it. Because the pain was waaaay too much .she has taken 3 grams so far of indra extract 24 hours ago and even thought it almost seems like its killing her she wants to kick the addiction so bad she wants to take the last gram after sleeping a little. what should I do she I not let her take it will it even help her since she just did a small amount of heroin …. did doing a small amount ruin the whole thing?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dear Martee
Date: January 16, 2005 at 11:59:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Martee,
I don’t think you have ever offended me. I hold you
in high regard, and respect you opinions and input to
this list….
I’m thinking of coming down in February, but am unsure
if I can arrange all the logistics. I might have to
work…
love Julie
__________________________________
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Read only the mail you want – Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: [Ibogaine ramblings
Date: January 16, 2005 at 10:45:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I just got back from watching the deer. It’s so quiet you can here them run off if you sneak. I don’t know if I could ever shoot one again. Maybe I’ll take a camera shot of that buck that I know is there somewhere, and then watch him run off to get laid. I’m from KY but I would have to say that this is the prettiest place I know of. And KY is real pretty. I’ll end up here before it’s over. Randy
From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [Ibogaine ramblings
Date: January 16, 2005 at 10:15:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Randy, I too live in the Catskills. I’ve been gone for a couple of years, but am back now and I am very happy about it. I can’t wait ’till summer when it’s time to hit Platte Clove and go sleeping outside to listen to the coyotes and other wild things of the wood. The last time I did all these things was pre-Ibogaine and I have a feeling it is all going to be a little bit different now, a little more meaningful if you know what I mean.
— On Sun 01/16, < BiscuitBoy714@aol.com > wrote:
From: [mailto: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:54:12 EST
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [Ibogaine ramblings
Hey list, I just have to say this. Ibogaine still amazes me after almost 4 months. I was properly starting the day (caught, caught) and watching it get light in the woods up here in the Catskills and I came to a couple of conclusions. I’ve said that this list is sacred ground to me, and it is, but I think sacred ground is wherever you are standing at the time. Ibogaine gave me that. I ALWAYS had to have external things to hold in high regard. Not anymore. I have a peace now that I just can’t explain. Ibogaine opened my mind to things I have ignored for a long time. Hell, things I absolutely missed. I just heard some triads and harmonic licks that Mick Taylor did on Wild Horses that I have never heard before. I’ve been covering that song for 30 years. Well, I might add, but not well enough. I swear I think Ibogaine has made me a better musician. Ibogaine has made me a better person no doubt. Preston said it best a little while ago. He said Ibogaine, or maybe he said an African, (I heard African’s when I did it) told him “You know what you know.” That’s how I feel. I still have my external stimuli, but I’m OK with me now. I have internalized. Thanx list for being here and letting me rant. Randy
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [Ibogaine ramblings
Date: January 16, 2005 at 7:54:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey list, I just have to say this. Ibogaine still amazes me after almost 4 months. I was properly starting the day (caught, caught) and watching it get light in the woods up here in the Catskills and I came to a couple of conclusions. I’ve said that this list is sacred ground to me, and it is, but I think sacred ground is wherever you are standing at the time. Ibogaine gave me that. I ALWAYS had to have external things to hold in high regard. Not anymore. I have a peace now that I just can’t explain. Ibogaine opened my mind to things I have ignored for a long time. Hell, things I absolutely missed. I just heard some triads and harmonic licks that Mick Taylor did on Wild Horses that I have never heard before. I’ve been covering that song for 30 years. Well, I might add, but not well enough. I swear I think Ibogaine has made me a better musician. Ibogaine has made me a better person no doubt. Preston said it best a little while ago. He said Ibogaine, or maybe he said an African, (I heard African’s when I did it) told him “You know what you know.” That’s how I feel. I still have my external stimuli, but I’m OK with me now. I have internalized. Thanx list for being here and letting me rant. Randy
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
Date: January 16, 2005 at 5:11:49 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Heh, it’s amazing how quick you do pick this stuff up…… man even my parents are learning it and they’re wayyy old (lol. Don’t tell em I said that for gawd’s sake…) although can get expensive with toll calls trying to explain how to do stuff!!! Now my older neighbour has gone and bought one so I’m teaching the basics yet again!
And I am so amazed at how fast people can type with two fingers!!!!! I had lessons in about 1981 (only a third of a year at tech before I fell down a lift shaft and broke my back lol) and they came back to me, so I’m using ten fingers but my daughter can almost type as fast with two!!
Youth aye?
Yoool get thar mate!
Kirk
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, 16 January 2005 3:19 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
In a message dated 1/15/2005 9:10:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
no, but it should be under your “format” button in the row at the top of
your emails. Where it says- file, edit, view, insert, format, tools,
message, help- click the format one, then click “pain text” instead of “rich
text” which is what mine says. Don’t know if it’s the same with yours, but
take a look.
It’s not a big deal, but the attachments to scare me.
I hope I don’t piss anyone off with my clumsy attempts at learning how to live in the 21st century. I’ve got to get this shit down to do what I want to do. I can already type a hell of a lot faster than I could a couple of months ago. Randy
– No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
– No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 – Release Date: 01/12/2005
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Tset tets EtTs Testes
Date: January 15, 2005 at 11:04:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
oops, meant “quick” work.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Tset tets EtTs Testes
yeah, seems like you got it right Randy. Yer a work learn.
;-))
Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —– From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Tset tets EtTs Testes
Well, I think I have figure out the copy thing. This is test of the emergency
back up system. If this had been a real emergency, you would be directed to
twist as many as you can and procede to get as stoned as you can, as fast as
you can. Is my laptop working? The dust is making it hard to see this AOL 4.0
shit on this computer that desperately needs an upgrade. I’m gearing up for the
onslaught. Where is the spill chigger on this thing? Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Tset tets EtTs Testes
Date: January 15, 2005 at 6:04:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
yeah, seems like you got it right Randy. Yer a work learn.
;-))
Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —– From: <BiscuitBoy714@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Tset tets EtTs Testes
Well, I think I have figure out the copy thing. This is test of the emergency
back up system. If this had been a real emergency, you would be directed to
twist as many as you can and procede to get as stoned as you can, as fast as
you can. Is my laptop working? The dust is making it hard to see this AOL 4.0
shit on this computer that desperately needs an upgrade. I’m gearing up for the
onslaught. Where is the spill chigger on this thing? Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Tset tets EtTs Testes
Date: January 15, 2005 at 5:45:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well, I think I have figure out the copy thing. This is test of the emergency
back up system. If this had been a real emergency, you would be directed to
twist as many as you can and procede to get as stoned as you can, as fast as
you can. Is my laptop working? The dust is making it hard to see this AOL 4.0
shit on this computer that desperately needs an upgrade. I’m gearing up for the
onslaught. Where is the spill chigger on this thing? Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 15, 2005 at 11:56:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Jen,
Best to check www.ibogaine.co.uk/options.htm for a list of what’s available.
If you just want to buy the drug then you need to look at the sections
called “Options for Supply”
Hope things work out
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Jen Reilly [mailto:jenreilly@gmail.com]
Sent: 15 January 2005 10:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Julie, Sara,
Hi i’m Jen. I’m new to the list. im looking for opinions on where i
can purchase the highest quality, most consistent ibogaine product
online. because of financial reasons, i will be having my treatment
at home, in the company of a nurse. im hoping to interupt a seven
year heroin addiction. i would appreciate any feedback, direction,
advice, or whatever has been learned through experience.
Jen
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 18:25:29 -0800, slowone@hush.ai
<slowone@hush.ai> wrote:
I have used both the extract and the HCL, and in my
experience the HCL was WAY WAY more effective. The
extract did absolutely nothing, and I had to ingest so
much it was ridiculous.
Julie, which extract was this again? My experience with both the
indra extract and my own homemade extract was that with the broader
range of alkaloids in an extract, the experience is longer-lasting
for a given level of intensity, plus there was more effect on
movement and vision.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
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/]=—————————————————————
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[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
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\]=—————————————————————
——=[/
—
Jennifer Reilly -~^’^~-., ,.-^*”*^-.,
————+++++===== ({ >x< })
<‘>:”:_|_:”^<^>*^ *^~-. _
, IndustrialEye ” _,..-;:” \
_,..-~v^*”*^v~-.,_
h: 415.674.7792 (\ ~<@) ;
@^,/)
c: 415.722.9177 c^c
/]=—————————————————————
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[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dana
Date: January 15, 2005 at 11:46:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dana, are you out there? Does anyone know Dana’s E mail address? I’ve lost his phone number and I need to get in touch with him. I figure he will be too busy to read E mail, what with all the preparations and mind bending involved with putting on a fiesta for the bizarre but, I’ll try it anyway. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
Date: January 15, 2005 at 9:18:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/15/2005 9:10:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
no, but it should be under your “format” button in the row at the top of
your emails. Where it says- file, edit, view, insert, format, tools,
message, help- click the format one, then click “pain text” instead of “rich
text” which is what mine says. Don’t know if it’s the same with yours, but
take a look.
It’s not a big deal, but the attachments to scare me.
I hope I don’t piss anyone off with my clumsy attempts at learning how to live in the 21st century. I’ve got to get this shit down to do what I want to do. I can already type a hell of a lot faster than I could a couple of months ago. Randy
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
Date: January 15, 2005 at 9:10:10 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
no, but it should be under your “format” button in the row at the top of your emails. Where it says- file, edit, view, insert, format, tools, message, help- click the format one, then click “pain text” instead of “rich text” which is what mine says. Don’t know if it’s the same with yours, but take a look.
It’s not a big deal, but the attachments to scare me.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
Help me out dude. What do I do? Are you familiar with AOL? Randy
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
Date: January 15, 2005 at 8:43:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/15/2005 8:03:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
now you gotta get the “plain texting” thing down to cut down on the
attachments coming through Randy. Not that I personally Mind as I never open
them, but they scare me too a bit I admit (or I wouldn’t bother being a
nitpicker like this), never quite sure if they’re really from the person
who’s name is on the return address box or not, or if they’ve come load with
extra special gifts, like, you know, oh, viruses and such.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:35 PM
Subject: Fwd: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine
conference i…
In a message dated 1/14/2005 8:03:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
Copying and sending is easy Randy. Via AOL just either highlight what you
want to appear and hit send or send all depending on who you want the
message to
go to and then just add your message OR use the FORWARD button and just
write
your email. You won’t see the forwarded message until is received on the
list or if by private email just cc or bcc it to yourself.
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Howard, you are the man. I’ve said that about 10 times in the past couple of
days. Thanx for the info. I’ll save your post so I won’t forget how. Thanx
again. Randy PS Thanx for all the Ibogaine info too. You helped
me get my life back.
How is that? Aint Mamma’s great?
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
Date: January 15, 2005 at 8:18:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Help me out dude. What do I do? Are you familiar with AOL? Randy
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
Date: January 15, 2005 at 8:03:26 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
now you gotta get the “plain texting” thing down to cut down on the attachments coming through Randy. Not that I personally Mind as I never open them, but they scare me too a bit I admit (or I wouldn’t bother being a nitpicker like this), never quite sure if they’re really from the person who’s name is on the return address box or not, or if they’ve come load with extra special gifts, like, you know, oh, viruses and such.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:35 PM
Subject: Fwd: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
In a message dated 1/14/2005 8:03:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
Copying and sending is easy Randy. Via AOL just either highlight what you
want to appear and hit send or send all depending on who you want the message to
go to and then just add your message OR use the FORWARD button and just write
your email. You won’t see the forwarded message until is received on the
list or if by private email just cc or bcc it to yourself.
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Howard, you are the man. I’ve said that about 10 times in the past couple of days. Thanx for the info. I’ll save your post so I won’t forget how. Thanx again. Randy PS Thanx for all the Ibogaine info too. You helped me get my life back.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Jen Reilly <jenreilly@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 15, 2005 at 5:14:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie, Sara,
Hi i’m Jen. I’m new to the list. im looking for opinions on where i
can purchase the highest quality, most consistent ibogaine product
online. because of financial reasons, i will be having my treatment
at home, in the company of a nurse. im hoping to interupt a seven
year heroin addiction. i would appreciate any feedback, direction,
advice, or whatever has been learned through experience.
Jen
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 18:25:29 -0800, slowone@hush.ai <slowone@hush.ai> wrote:
I have used both the extract and the HCL, and in my
experience the HCL was WAY WAY more effective. The
extract did absolutely nothing, and I had to ingest so
much it was ridiculous.
Julie, which extract was this again? My experience with both the
indra extract and my own homemade extract was that with the broader
range of alkaloids in an extract, the experience is longer-lasting
for a given level of intensity, plus there was more effect on
movement and vision.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
—
Jennifer Reilly -~^’^~-., ,.-^*”*^-.,
————+++++===== ({ >x< })
<‘>:”:_|_:”^<^>*^ *^~-. _
, IndustrialEye ” _,..-;:” \ _,..-~v^*”*^v~-.,_
h: 415.674.7792 (\ ~<@) ; @^,/)
c: 415.722.9177 c^c
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings re:fear
Date: January 15, 2005 at 3:08:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: N
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Martee,
I am sorry. You must have misunderstood me. My provider has been a god send. The things that he says make me feel comfort. But when I was posting questions he asked me would I feel more comfortable doing this under a hospital scene. He was actually wanting me to be more comfortable. I really appreciated that very much. When I explained that my fear was not from my trust in my provider but from the ibogaine itself, he then understood what I had meant. I am sorry that I didnt state that clearly. I appreciate you telling me that it is very normal to have the fear that I have. But he makes me feel better every day and people like you that have recently done it with no problems are making me feel better. Just glad that other people have felt the same way going into this. Thank you, Steve
————– Original message ————–
Steve,
Very strange that your provider would make your fear about him. Normally I would launch into this tirade of sarcastic remarks, however It may be there are conversations between the two of you that I am not privy to that take it out of context. So I shall refrain. sadly.
Your comment was that you wanted to be reassured it is safe under a good provider with correct dosage as long as one is healthy. If that is the ideal situation I would assume statistically you would be safe . My session had variables that took me out of that categorie as far as I had no provider present only phone contact between two people who didn’t speak the same language (not literally)
dose not sufficient for my metabolism which led to things e v e n t u a l l y ( Stop Yield Detour)being worked out and my health….well I guess there are people in worse shape than me but my lack of good health then is probably ions away from where you are. I came out ok. Everything I was blaming on all that at the time turned out to be normal for a lot of folks with my type of usage and age who had normal smooth sessions. I found I was letting fear enter and take over the possibilities. I was also over intellectualizing everything.
The fda probably takes more payola than the mob. But that’s how we all feed our fears or build any case by accepting certain info. So that’s where faith comes in.
The thing is to take a real slow deep breath and feel what does your heart and gut and brain tell you is the real deal. It should come to you quickly before you start to factor in the opinions of those with their own motives and your fears. Your mention of not wanting the dose cut so you can get the full experience and not be sorry.. this also sounds like beyond all this doubt and fear you have come to terms about doing this and have very definite feelings re: what you want from it.
When I mentioned how big a deal physical death was in the scheme of things, I didn’t mean how bad things were. I meant in the scheme of things refering to my belief system that come what may I will be really allright whether it’s in this body or not in this body.
In hindsight to my own experience I feel it’s all normal what you’re going through right now. You’d be suprised how calm you can get just taking a few deep breaths.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings re:fear
Martee,
Thanks so much for your words of wisdom. My provider saw my post and thought that I did not have confidence in him. I told him that it did not have anything to do with him. He asked me if I would be better off if I was under a hospital setting, and I told him no. It is not the provider the setter or the assistants involved, it is the plant itself. I have a little different story than most people that have or considered ibogaine. I have only done drugs for less than three years and my provider says that my habit is as small as he has encountered with ibogaine(100 mg. of hydrocodone per day) He even said that he may be able to cut my dose of ibogaine. But I dont want to do that and cut some of the effects from ibogaine and be sorry. So my reason to send that message was hopefully that I would hear from people that have done it to reasure me it is safe under a good provider with correct dosage as long as I am healthy. I am a statistic person and was trying something to compare it to as far as safety. I know that you can get killed crossing the street. But if I am smart about it and look both ways I have a great chance that I will be ok. I feel like ibogaine is like the unknown with different effects on different people. I am also ok with that unless it may have the effect that it kills some people that take it. I have read that people have died from it and I guess what my real fear was if we really know how many people have died from this since it is a underground deal. I know that I may be way out there, but what I have felt reading alot of post is that most people do this was actually to the point that they were so tired of where they are if they died from it, they were ready because they were going to die anyway. So I guess that you can see a little why someone like me could be scared. I see that the fda has deemed it possibly fatal and then the girls were found dead and then hear people discuss ing in post that they were ready for whatever because they knew this was there only choice or they were dying anyway. I do worry too much but I took all those things and said to myself “is this thing like a crap shot” I have had some good things said about my provider but I know nothing solid about this plant. I would think that it is so rare that people could die from it and they wouldnt even know what it is in a autopsy. But anyway I appreciate your words of encouragement they mean alot to me. My faith should be stronger and that maybe something that I need to come to grips with during this journey. It is real wiered what is going on in my life right now. I have had two of the best years of my life in many ways and the drugs actually helped me be productive but all of the sudden I feel to stop and stop now. I am following through and you gave me some good advice with the faith statement. If you have anytime I would like even more info. Even a little more detail if possib le. Not trying to get personal just very curious. I would like to hear about the trip and details how you felt. Anyway I feel like you are helping save me so I appreciate you. When I go through this I will be on this list doing what you are doing just about everyday encouraging people through this. Steve
————– Original message ————–
Hi,
I’m 5mos+ out from my ibogaine after 20++years of insanity. I consider it nothing short of a miracle and am aware many times a day how different life is for me now. I actually cannot picture that I was the one that lived that existance for all those years. When I think back on it occasionally It’s like watching a movie and not having any idea who the leading actor is.
I’m curious who these “experts” are. Could they be makers of methedone, or politicians that get rich importing heroin or could it be some provider who wants you to spend a years income to get treated in their “safe surroundings”? Maybe it’s my lack of respect for authority (since I was 6) that has me questioning things validity regardless of what someone with a god complex or financial motives says. You did comment that in what you read you don’t find it statistically to be unsafe. Your brain and instincts got you this far. I’ll have a large glass of faith and could I get a shot of confidence to go with that! Glug Glug. Ok silly but it’s a good visualization if in the end you crap out fear!!
Fear and people dying, makes me think of all the people who od’d on street drugs or died of HIV or been thrown off of rooftops or out of windows because of drugs.
I had no fear at 4:00am crawling into unbricked abandoned buildings on the lower east side or over the bridge in williamsburg and walking up some almost nonexistant stairs to hand a whole lot of cash to some guy and then walk out onto a street full of junkies and cops. I always figured I had beat out the statistics on all that stuff that I was meant for other things and if all that didn’t get me and kill me it wasn’t going to happen now.
Other than wanting hope and salvation from all this (which is what I feel I got) and being practical and taking some precautions I guess the thing would be to get an ekg (which is all I had) and if there are doubts about your heart an echo cardiogram would reveal more. Blood work for liver levels if you suspect problems there.
I remember after my flooding dose after being dope sick before starting as it hit and I was lying on the bed as all the visuals in my head came on I recall taking a second to realize that my body at that point in time was as still and peaceful as it ever had been. Pretty good for someone who was just dopesick!
Physical death is a possibility crossing the street or getting out of the bathtub. I guess it would depend on how concrete your spiritual beliefs are as to how big a deal in the scheme of things that is. I remember knowing that death was something that was a possibility and I took precautions to make sure the peoples who’s house I was in would take no heat( what’s one more dead junkie in the bronx anyway). The rest was something I wasn’t going to anxt about because the bottom line was I was doing the ibogaine and let come what may.
I wish for you the peace and calm to realize that which you already know.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings
I am new to this site and I am doing ibogaine in feb. Saw your comments and dont know what you mean by dead ends, but I have an idea. Is it the off the wall comments from some people, I guess I am neither not on some peoples level or maybe it is a post ibo language or it is inside conversation, I just dont know. I cant follow what some people are talking about. Any way I am glad that ibogane saved you. I would really appreciate any comments that would help reduce my fear of the ibogaine experience. I have a fear of dying from it. Is that normal .I have read alot on it and I dont see any evidence that it is statistacally dangerous. But the so called experts on the web make you feel like that you are crazy for doing it and more crazy if it is not under stringent medical care. What is your comment on it. Would you be scared to do it again?
————– Original message ————–
> greetings,
> i’m guessing that i might need to introduce myself. my name’s chretien and
> i’ve been living in mexico this past year. i took the long hard road of
> heroin addiction for 10 years until i met up with ibogaine. in a nutshell,
> it saved my life and gave me renewed direction and i’ve been dope-free for
> over 18 moons now. woohoo! anyways, i used to be on this list until i got
> feed up with dead ends and no action, just alot of talk. maybe things are
> different now, i know they are with me. ok, that’s my intro in a nutshell.
> more later…
>
> mucho amor,
> chretien schiffer
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings re:fear
Date: January 15, 2005 at 1:09:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Steve,
Very strange that your provider would make your fear about him. Normally I would launch into this tirade of sarcastic remarks, however It may be there are conversations between the two of you that I am not privy to that take it out of context. So I shall refrain. sadly.
Your comment was that you wanted to be reassured it is safe under a good provider with correct dosage as long as one is healthy. If that is the ideal situation I would assume statistically you would be safe . My session had variables that took me out of that categorie as far as I had no provider present only phone contact between two people who didn’t speak the same language (not literally)
dose not sufficient for my metabolism which led to things e v e n t u a l l y ( Stop Yield Detour)being worked out and my health….well I guess there are people in worse shape than me but my lack of good health then is probably ions away from where you are. I came out ok. Everything I was blaming on all that at the time turned out to be normal for a lot of folks with my type of usage and age who had normal smooth sessions. I found I was letting fear enter and take over the possibilities. I was also over intellectualizing everything.
The fda probably takes more payola than the mob. But that’s how we all feed our fears or build any case by accepting certain info. So that’s where faith comes in.
The thing is to take a real slow deep breath and feel what does your heart and gut and brain tell you is the real deal. It should come to you quickly before you start to factor in the opinions of those with their own motives and your fears. Your mention of not wanting the dose cut so you can get the full experience and not be sorry.. this also sounds like beyond all this doubt and fear you have come to terms about doing this and have very definite feelings re: what you want from it.
When I mentioned how big a deal physical death was in the scheme of things, I didn’t mean how bad things were. I meant in the scheme of things refering to my belief system that come what may I will be really allright whether it’s in this body or not in this body.
In hindsight to my own experience I feel it’s all normal what you’re going through right now. You’d be suprised how calm you can get just taking a few deep breaths.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings re:fear
Martee,
Thanks so much for your words of wisdom. My provider saw my post and thought that I did not have confidence in him. I told him that it did not have anything to do with him. He asked me if I would be better off if I was under a hospital setting, and I told him no. It is not the provider the setter or the assistants involved, it is the plant itself. I have a little different story than most people that have or considered ibogaine. I have only done drugs for less than three years and my provider says that my habit is as small as he has encountered with ibogaine(100 mg. of hydrocodone per day) He even said that he may be able to cut my dose of ibogaine. But I dont want to do that and cut some of the effects from ibogaine and be sorry. So my reason to send that message was hopefully that I would hear from people that have done it to reasure me it is safe under a good provider with correct dosage as long as I am healthy. I am a statistic person and was trying something to compare it to as far as safety. I know that you can get killed crossing the street. But if I am smart about it and look both ways I have a great chance that I will be ok. I feel like ibogaine is like the unknown with different effects on different people. I am also ok with that unless it may have the effect that it kills some people that take it. I have read that people have died from it and I guess what my real fear was if we really know how many people have died from this since it is a underground deal. I know that I may be way out there, but what I have felt reading alot of post is that most people do this was actually to the point that they were so tired of where they are if they died from it, they were ready because they were going to die anyway. So I guess that you can see a little why someone like me could be scared. I see that the fda has deemed it possibly fatal and then the girls were found dead and then hear people discuss ing in post that they were ready for whatever because they knew this was there only choice or they were dying anyway. I do worry too much but I took all those things and said to myself “is this thing like a crap shot” I have had some good things said about my provider but I know nothing solid about this plant. I would think that it is so rare that people could die from it and they wouldnt even know what it is in a autopsy. But anyway I appreciate your words of encouragement they mean alot to me. My faith should be stronger and that maybe something that I need to come to grips with during this journey. It is real wiered what is going on in my life right now. I have had two of the best years of my life in many ways and the drugs actually helped me be productive but all of the sudden I feel to stop and stop now. I am following through and you gave me some good advice with the faith statement. If you have anytime I would like even more info. Even a little more detail if possib le. Not trying to get personal just very curious. I would like to hear about the trip and details how you felt. Anyway I feel like you are helping save me so I appreciate you. When I go through this I will be on this list doing what you are doing just about everyday encouraging people through this. Steve
————– Original message ————–
Hi,
I’m 5mos+ out from my ibogaine after 20++years of insanity. I consider it nothing short of a miracle and am aware many times a day how different life is for me now. I actually cannot picture that I was the one that lived that existance for all those years. When I think back on it occasionally It’s like watching a movie and not having any idea who the leading actor is.
I’m curious who these “experts” are. Could they be makers of methedone, or politicians that get rich importing heroin or could it be some provider who wants you to spend a years income to get treated in their “safe surroundings”? Maybe it’s my lack of respect for authority (since I was 6) that has me questioning things validity regardless of what someone with a god complex or financial motives says. You did comment that in what you read you don’t find it statistically to be unsafe. Your brain and instincts got you this far. I’ll have a large glass of faith and could I get a shot of confidence to go with that! Glug Glug. Ok silly but it’s a good visualization if in the end you crap out fear!!
Fear and people dying, makes me think of all the people who od’d on street drugs or died of HIV or been thrown off of rooftops or out of windows because of drugs.
I had no fear at 4:00am crawling into unbricked abandoned buildings on the lower east side or over the bridge in williamsburg and walking up some almost nonexistant stairs to hand a whole lot of cash to some guy and then walk out onto a street full of junkies and cops. I always figured I had beat out the statistics on all that stuff that I was meant for other things and if all that didn’t get me and kill me it wasn’t going to happen now.
Other than wanting hope and salvation from all this (which is what I feel I got) and being practical and taking some precautions I guess the thing would be to get an ekg (which is all I had) and if there are doubts about your heart an echo cardiogram would reveal more. Blood work for liver levels if you suspect problems there.
I remember after my flooding dose after being dope sick before starting as it hit and I was lying on the bed as all the visuals in my head came on I recall taking a second to realize that my body at that point in time was as still and peaceful as it ever had been. Pretty good for someone who was just dopesick!
Physical death is a possibility crossing the street or getting out of the bathtub. I guess it would depend on how concrete your spiritual beliefs are as to how big a deal in the scheme of things that is. I remember knowing that death was something that was a possibility and I took precautions to make sure the peoples who’s house I was in would take no heat( what’s one more dead junkie in the bronx anyway). The rest was something I wasn’t going to anxt about because the bottom line was I was doing the ibogaine and let come what may.
I wish for you the peace and calm to realize that which you already know.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings
I am new to this site and I am doing ibogaine in feb. Saw your comments and dont know what you mean by dead ends, but I have an idea. Is it the off the wall comments from some people, I guess I am neither not on some peoples level or maybe it is a post ibo language or it is inside conversation, I just dont know. I cant follow what some people are talking about. Any way I am glad that ibogane saved you. I would really appreciate any comments that would help reduce my fear of the ibogaine experience. I have a fear of dying from it. Is that normal .I have read alot on it and I dont see any evidence that it is statistacally dangerous. But the so called experts on the web make you feel like that you are crazy for doing it and more crazy if it is not under stringent medical care. What is your comment on it. Would you be scared to do it again?
————– Original message ————–
> greetings,
> i’m guessing that i might need to introduce myself. my name’s chretien and
> i’ve been living in mexico this past year. i took the long hard road of
> heroin addiction for 10 years until i met up with ibogaine. in a nutshell,
> it saved my life and gave me renewed direction and i’ve been dope-free for
> over 18 moons now. woohoo! anyways, i used to be on this list until i got
> feed up with dead ends and no action, just alot of talk. maybe things are
> different now, i know they are with me. ok, that’s my intro in a nutshell.
> more later…
>
> mucho amor,
> chretien schiffer
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] randy/twisted drug heads
Date: January 15, 2005 at 12:27:38 AM EST
To: ibo <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Randy,
Twisted drug heads may be my specialty although if you take away the drug stuff we really aren’t all that different from the other folk. Just a variation in how we manifested our stuff. Everyone has their stuff. Thank you for the acknowledgment and yes I have actually considered the possibility.
I’ve also think if someone wants something bad enough they find a way to pay for it……. did you ever notice???
It’s so thoughtful of you to give me a heads up on that manipulation tactic although I threw away that doormat I used to wear years ago. Did you ever consider manipulative behavior is something left over from addictive behavior and there are other ways to get what you need? (yes I know you were kidding, sort of).
Which brings us back to faith and intention. But that’s a chapter I can’t get into right now as I have to get up for work tomorrow.
Looking forward to seeing you again.
Martee
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Date: January 14, 2005 at 11:54:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/14/2005 6:46:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, mafinman@optonline.net writes:
Julie,
Are you thinking of coming down? It’s local for me and I am looking
forward to meeting those I have offended on this list (sorry I have my Eliza
Doolittle moments) and those I have not. It will be like a masked ball
without the masks.
Martee
Martee, it’s good to hear from you, and hear you are coming to the Ibo happening. I want to talk if we meet up. I’m sure we will. Just like always your post about fear was dead on, and hit me right between the eye’s. Have you ever thought about being a therapist for twisted drug heads like us? I’d pay you. Well, I’d pay you if I had the money, and if I didn’t, I’d try and manipulate you into giving me therapy free.?#$ Where am I going with this? O yea, I say we rock this mother right, and have a great time in the Village come Feb. 20th. Be there or be oblong, or rectangular, or square or something.
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Date: January 14, 2005 at 6:46:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie,
Are you thinking of coming down? It’s local for me and I am looking forward to meeting those I have offended on this list (sorry I have my Eliza Doolittle moments) and those I have not. It will be like a masked ball without the masks.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 12:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Dear Howard,
Please post any information about this conference as
soon as you have it…
Thanks,
Julie 🙂
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference i…
Date: January 14, 2005 at 11:35:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/14/2005 8:03:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
Copying and sending is easy Randy. Via AOL just either highlight what you
want to appear and hit send or send all depending on who you want the message to
go to and then just add your message OR use the FORWARD button and just write
your email. You won’t see the forwarded message until is received on the
list or if by private email just cc or bcc it to yourself.
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Howard, you are the man. I’ve said that about 10 times in the past couple of days. Thanx for the info. I’ll save your post so I won’t forget how. Thanx again. Randy PS Thanx for all the Ibogaine info too. You helped me get my life back.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Date: January 14, 2005 at 7:54:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/14/05 2:51:49 PM, BiscuitBoy714@aol.com writes:
<< Julie, I can tell you where and when, but thats about it. The name of the
place is Alex Gray’s Chapel of mirrors and it is located on 27th street
between
10th and 11th above the nightclub Spirit. Preston sent this out, I just don’t
know how to copy and send without an attachment. The date that Dana sent out
is
Feb. 20th & 21st . He should know, I think he is in on doing this. So if it
sucks it’s all Dana’s fault. It wouldn’t be, but we could blame him anyway.
YEEEE ha I’ll be there! Randy >>
Copying and sending is easy Randy. Via AOL just either highlight what you
want to appear and hit send or send all depending on who you want the message to
go to and then just add your message OR use the FORWARD button and just write
your email. You won’t see the forwarded message until is received on the
list or if by private email just cc or bcc it to yourself.
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings re:fear
Date: January 14, 2005 at 10:43:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Martee,
Thanks so much for your words of wisdom. My provider saw my post and thought that I did not have confidence in him. I told him that it did not have anything to do with him. He asked me if I would be better off if I was under a hospital setting, and I told him no. It is not the provider the setter or the assistants involved, it is the plant itself. I have a little different story than most people that have or considered ibogaine. I have only done drugs for less than three years and my provider says that my habit is as small as he has encountered with ibogaine(100 mg. of hydrocodone per day) He even said that he may be able to cut my dose of ibogaine. But I dont want to do that and cut some of the effects from ibogaine and be sorry. So my reason to send that message was hopefully that I would hear from people that have done it to reasure me it is safe under a good provider with correct dosage as long as I am healthy. I am a statistic person and was trying something to compare it to as far as safety. I know that you can get killed crossing the street. But if I am smart about it and look both ways I have a great chance that I will be ok. I feel like ibogaine is like the unknown with different effects on different people. I am also ok with that unless it may have the effect that it kills some people that take it. I have read that people have died from it and I guess what my real fear was if we really know how many people have died from this since it is a underground deal. I know that I may be way out there, but what I have felt reading alot of post is that most people do this was actually to the point that they were so tired of where they are if they died from it, they were ready because they were going to die anyway. So I guess that you can see a little why someone like me could be scared. I see that the fda has deemed it possibly fatal and then the girls were found dead and then hear people discussing in post that they were ready for whatever because they knew this was there only choice or they were dying anyway. I do worry too much but I took all those things and said to myself “is this thing like a crap shot” I have had some good things said about my provider but I know nothing solid about this plant. I would think that it is so rare that people could die from it and they wouldnt even know what it is in a autopsy. But anyway I appreciate your words of encouragement they mean alot to me. My faith should be stronger and that maybe something that I need to come to grips with during this journey. It is real wiered what is going on in my life right now. I have had two of the best years of my life in many ways and the drugs actually helped me be productive but all of the sudden I feel to stop and stop now. I am following through and you gave me some good advice with the faith statement. If you have anytime I would like even more info. Even a little more detail if possible. Not trying to get personal just very curious. I would like to hear about the trip and details how you felt. Anyway I feel like you are helping save me so I appreciate you. When I go through this I will be on this list doing what you are doing just about everyday encouraging people through this. Steve
————– Original message ————–
Hi,
I’m 5mos+ out from my ibogaine after 20++years of insanity. I consider it nothing short of a miracle and am aware many times a day how different life is for me now. I actually cannot picture that I was the one that lived that existance for all those years. When I think back on it occasionally It’s like watching a movie and not having any idea who the leading actor is.
I’m curious who these “experts” are. Could they be makers of methedone, or politicians that get rich importing heroin or could it be some provider who wants you to spend a years income to get treated in their “safe surroundings”? Maybe it’s my lack of respect for authority (since I was 6) that has me questioning things validity regardless of what someone with a god complex or financial motives says. You did comment that in what you read you don’t find it statistically to be unsafe. Your brain and instincts got you this far. I’ll have a large glass of faith and could I get a shot of confidence to go with that! Glug Glug. Ok silly but it’s a good visualization if in the end you crap out fear!!
Fear and people dying, makes me think of all the people who od’d on street drugs or died of HIV or been thrown off of rooftops or out of windows because of drugs.
I had no fear at 4:00am crawling into unbricked abandoned buildings on the lower east side or over the bridge in williamsburg and walking up some almost nonexistant stairs to hand a whole lot of cash to some guy and then walk out onto a street full of junkies and cops. I always figured I had beat out the statistics on all that stuff that I was meant for other things and if all that didn’t get me and kill me it wasn’t going to happen now.
Other than wanting hope and salvation from all this (which is what I feel I got) and being practical and taking some precautions I guess the thing would be to get an ekg (which is all I had) and if there are doubts about your heart an echo cardiogram would reveal more. Blood work for liver levels if you suspect problems there.
I remember after my flooding dose after being dope sick before starting as it hit and I was lying on the bed as all the visuals in my head came on I recall taking a second to realize that my body at that point in time was as still and peaceful as it ever had been. Pretty good for someone who was just dopesick!
Physical death is a possibility crossing the street or getting out of the bathtub. I guess it would depend on how concrete your spiritual beliefs are as to how big a deal in the scheme of things that is. I remember knowing that death was something that was a possibility and I took precautions to make sure the peoples who’s house I was in would take no heat( what’s one more dead junkie in the bronx anyway). The rest was something I wasn’t going to anxt about because the bottom line was I was doing the ibogaine and let come what may.
I wish for you the peace and calm to realize that which you already know.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings
I am new to this site and I am doing ibogaine in feb. Saw your comments and dont know what you mean by dead ends, but I have an idea. Is it the off the wall comments from some people, I guess I am neither not on some peoples level or maybe it is a post ibo language or it is inside conversation, I just dont know. I cant follow what some people are talking about. Any way I am glad that ibogane saved you. I would really appreciate any comments that would help reduce my fear of the ibogaine experience. I have a fear of dying from it. Is that normal .I have read alot on it and I dont see any evidence that it is statistacally dangerous. But the so called experts on the web make you feel like that you are crazy for doing it and more crazy if it is not under stringent medical care. What is your comment on it. Would you be scared to do it again?
————– Original message ————–
> greetings,
> i’m guessing that i might need to introduce myself. my name’s chretien and
> i’ve been living in mexico this past year. i took the long hard road of
> heroin addiction for 10 years until i met up with ibogaine. in a nutshell,
> it saved my life and gave me renewed direction and i’ve been dope-free for
> over 18 moons now. woohoo! anyways, i used to be on this list until i got
> feed up with dead ends and no action, just alot of talk. maybe things are
> different now, i know they are with me. ok, that’s my intro in a nutshell.
> more later…
>
> mucho amor,
> chretien schiffer
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Copying out of email/was Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Date: January 14, 2005 at 7:54:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/14/05 2:51:49 PM, BiscuitBoy714@aol.com writes:
<< Julie, I can tell you where and when, but thats about it. The name of the
place is Alex Gray’s Chapel of mirrors and it is located on 27th street
between
10th and 11th above the nightclub Spirit. Preston sent this out, I just don’t
know how to copy and send without an attachment. The date that Dana sent out
is
Feb. 20th & 21st . He should know, I think he is in on doing this. So if it
sucks it’s all Dana’s fault. It wouldn’t be, but we could blame him anyway.
YEEEE ha I’ll be there! Randy >>
Copying and sending is easy Randy. Via AOL just either highlight what you
want to appear and hit send or send all depending on who you want the message to
go to and then just add your message OR use the FORWARD button and just write
your email. You won’t see the forwarded message until is received on the
list or if by private email just cc or bcc it to yourself.
Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “” <thethird@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Date: January 14, 2005 at 7:37:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey guys, I live about two hours out of the city and am planning on going to the conference, and don’t feel like driving or taking the train home on Sunday night just to turn around and come back Monday morning so I need to know of some cheap hotels in the area. Is there a hotel where the non-NYC residents that are going are all planning to stay at? I can not wait!
Any suggestions on lodging would be great!
— On Fri 01/14, m.finman < mafinman@optonline.net > wrote:
From: m.finman [mailto: mafinman@optonline.net]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:46:01 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Julie,
Are you thinking of coming down? It’s local for me and I am looking
forward to meeting those I have offended on this list (sorry I have my Eliza
Doolittle moments) and those I have not. It will be like a masked ball
without the masks.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga”
To:
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 12:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
> Dear Howard,
>
> Please post any information about this conference as
> soon as you have it…
>
> Thanks,
>
> Julie 🙂
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
> [%]
>
> ]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>
/]=———————————————————————=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=———————————————————————=[/
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine Conference – Chapel of Sacred Mirrors
Date: January 14, 2005 at 6:53:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Uhm … like, here, or sumthin’
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/News/2005COSM.html
Nailing Jello to the wall, is not yet, one of my gifts. (Although, I am nothing if not extremely open-minded and always willing to try new kinks.)
The FACTS (We pause now to giggle) … such as they are, will doubtlessly change. 25 times. Between Right Now, and … Monday. Once things are more stable, and not FLYING out of everything. Further updates will be posted.
Unless, of course, everything is still utter and complete chaos, right up until the opening day. Which would be, about typical.
Anywaze. This is an EVENT being put on by Cures Not Wars. If you have any QUESTIONS about, uhm, FACTS or DETAILS. Ask Dana. He’ll explain EVERYTHING.
What is ABSOLUTELY SOLID is the LOCATION (COSM), and the DATES (Feb 20 & 21). All of us will be there. So, if you can make it to NYC. Show up. It’ll totally fuckin’ rock and be a blast.
Plus, also, one giant, extended, 2 day long, clusterfuck, and the opportunity to experience a complete derangement of the senses, without doin’ any drugZ even… Though, I’m sure a variety of WhiteLight Molecules will be FLYING hither and yon.
I didn’t actually say that last sentence, up yonder. It’s an ilLusiOn.
God bless us all, everyone.
Patrick
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Date: January 14, 2005 at 6:46:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie,
Are you thinking of coming down? It’s local for me and I am looking forward to meeting those I have offended on this list (sorry I have my Eliza Doolittle moments) and those I have not. It will be like a masked ball without the masks.
Martee
—– Original Message —– From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 12:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Dear Howard,
Please post any information about this conference as
soon as you have it…
Thanks,
Julie 🙂
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “m.finman” <mafinman@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings re:fear
Date: January 14, 2005 at 6:40:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
I’m 5mos+ out from my ibogaine after 20++years of insanity. I consider it nothing short of a miracle and am aware many times a day how different life is for me now. I actually cannot picture that I was the one that lived that existance for all those years. When I think back on it occasionally It’s like watching a movie and not having any idea who the leading actor is.
I’m curious who these “experts” are. Could they be makers of methedone, or politicians that get rich importing heroin or could it be some provider who wants you to spend a years income to get treated in their “safe surroundings”? Maybe it’s my lack of respect for authority (since I was 6) that has me questioning things validity regardless of what someone with a god complex or financial motives says. You did comment that in what you read you don’t find it statistically to be unsafe. Your brain and instincts got you this far. I’ll have a large glass of faith and could I get a shot of confidence to go with that! Glug Glug. Ok silly but it’s a good visualization if in the end you crap out fear!!
Fear and people dying, makes me think of all the people who od’d on street drugs or died of HIV or been thrown off of rooftops or out of windows because of drugs.
I had no fear at 4:00am crawling into unbricked abandoned buildings on the lower east side or over the bridge in williamsburg and walking up some almost nonexistant stairs to hand a whole lot of cash to some guy and then walk out onto a street full of junkies and cops. I always figured I had beat out the statistics on all that stuff that I was meant for other things and if all that didn’t get me and kill me it wasn’t going to happen now.
Other than wanting hope and salvation from all this (which is what I feel I got) and being practical and taking some precautions I guess the thing would be to get an ekg (which is all I had) and if there are doubts about your heart an echo cardiogram would reveal more. Blood work for liver levels if you suspect problems there.
I remember after my flooding dose after being dope sick before starting as it hit and I was lying on the bed as all the visuals in my head came on I recall taking a second to realize that my body at that point in time was as still and peaceful as it ever had been. Pretty good for someone who was just dopesick!
Physical death is a possibility crossing the street or getting out of the bathtub. I guess it would depend on how concrete your spiritual beliefs are as to how big a deal in the scheme of things that is. I remember knowing that death was something that was a possibility and I took precautions to make sure the peoples who’s house I was in would take no heat( what’s one more dead junkie in the bronx anyway). The rest was something I wasn’t going to anxt about because the bottom line was I was doing the ibogaine and let come what may.
I wish for you the peace and calm to realize that which you already know.
Martee
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings
I am new to this site and I am doing ibogaine in feb. Saw your comments and dont know what you mean by dead ends, but I have an idea. Is it the off the wall comments from some people, I guess I am neither not on some peoples level or maybe it is a post ibo language or it is inside conversation, I just dont know. I cant follow what some people are talking about. Any way I am glad that ibogane saved you. I would really appreciate any comments that would help reduce my fear of the ibogaine experience. I have a fear of dying from it. Is that normal .I have read alot on it and I dont see any evidence that it is statistacally dangerous. But the so called experts on the web make you feel like that you are crazy for doing it and more crazy if it is not under stringent medical care. What is your comment on it. Would you be scared to do it again?
————– Original message ————–
> greetings,
> i’m guessing that i might need to introduce myself. my name’s chretien and
> i’ve been living in mexico this past year. i took the long hard road of
> heroin addiction for 10 years until i met up with ibogaine. in a nutshell,
> it saved my life and gave me renewed direction and i’ve been dope-free for
> over 18 moons now. woohoo! anyways, i used to be on this list until i got
> feed up with dead ends and no action, just alot of talk. maybe things are
> different now, i know they are with me. ok, that’s my intro in a nutshell.
> more later…
>
> mucho amor,
> chretien schiffer
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Date: January 14, 2005 at 2:34:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie, I can tell you where and when, but thats about it. The name of the place is Alex Gray’s Chapel of mirrors and it is located on 27th street between 10th and 11th above the nightclub Spirit. Preston sent this out, I just don’t know how to copy and send without an attachment. The date that Dana sent out is Feb. 20th & 21st . He should know, I think he is in on doing this. So if it sucks it’s all Dana’s fault. It wouldn’t be, but we could blame him anyway. YEEEE ha I’ll be there! Randy
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine conference in February
Date: January 14, 2005 at 12:27:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Howard,
Please post any information about this conference as
soon as you have it…
Thanks,
Julie 🙂
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna; Best of luck on your treatment
Date: January 13, 2005 at 9:01:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Donna, there has to be a reason this happened. Stay tough. Work it out. It is a lot better now than it used to be. I waited a year and I don’t think you will have to do that. I hope not. Keep us informed. Randy
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Hannah
Date: January 13, 2005 at 2:57:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Hannah,
how are ya, girl? Haven’t heard from you in a
while…wondering how yer doin’?
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna; Best of luck on your treatment
Date: January 13, 2005 at 2:56:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Iboga has a plan of it’s own, regardless of our “schedules”.
whatever happens, it was meant to be.
trust in iboga.
best of luck,
_.dh
On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 08:35 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com wrote:
Hi guys
Its bad news I am not being treated on sunday I am so upset and gutted I was so close to it, now i will have to rearrange it.
love donna
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna; Best of luck on your treatment
Date: January 13, 2005 at 2:25:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
yes a safe and successful journey
Jeff and Rachel
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Donna; Best of luck on your treatment
Date: January 13, 2005 at 1:35:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi guys
Its bad news I am not being treated on sunday I am so upset and gutted I was so close to it, now i will have to rearrange it.
love donna
From: “FakePlacebo” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Donna; Best of luck on your treatment
Date: January 13, 2005 at 10:58:07 AM EST
To: “Summary” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Donna,
Wish you best and beautiful Iboga journey. I was treated around almost two months ago and I’m still opiate free and very happy so I hope you’ll be also…
With My Best Wishes
FakePlacebo
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings
Date: January 13, 2005 at 3:15:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
we need some more info to make accurate (as we can)statements. what drug are you coming off….where are you being treated….that sort of stuff and age especially if you are scared of dying have you had an ekg and blood work done their are certainly things you can do to ease your fears
I was 45 when treated 10 weeks ago for a 11 year methadone addiction preceded by many many years of dope and other opiates
Ibo works it isn’t easy but the best way fro me and many others who have tried all else ….
curious to hear back glad you found it
Jeff
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From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] greetings
Date: January 13, 2005 at 1:40:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I am new to this site and I am doing ibogaine in feb. Saw your comments and dont know what you mean by dead ends, but I have an idea. Is it the off the wall comments from some people, I guess I am neither not on some peoples level or maybe it is a post ibo language or it is inside conversation, I just dont know. I cant follow what some people are talking about. Any way I am glad that ibogane saved you. I would really appreciate any comments that would help reduce my fear of the ibogaine experience. I have a fear of dying from it. Is that normal .I have read alot on it and I dont see any evidence that it is statistacally dangerous. But the so called experts on the web make you feel like that you are crazy for doing it and more crazy if it is not under stringent medical care. What is your comment on it. Would you be scared to do it again?
————– Original message ————–
> greetings,
> i’m guessing that i might need to introduce myself. my name’s chretien and
> i’ve been living in mexico this past year. i took the long hard road of
> heroin addiction for 10 years until i met up with ibogaine. in a nutshell,
> it saved my life and gave me renewed direction and i’ve been dope-free for
> over 18 moons now. woohoo! anyways, i used to be on this list until i got
> feed up with dead ends and no action, just alot of talk. maybe things are
> different now, i know they are with me. ok, that’s my intro in a nutshell.
> more later…
>
> mucho amor,
> chretien schiffer
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
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>
>
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] greetings
Date: January 12, 2005 at 10:14:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey there from New Zealand Chretien,
Wow, congratulations on your new found freedom and health!! I’m hoping to
do the Ibogaine sometime this year. Yesturday would have been good, but
there ya go, nobody I know won Lotto!! LOL
Anyway, nice to meet you, tell us about your experience, the more info we
all have the better.
Kirsty
—–Original Message—–
From: Justin Thyme [mailto:junkieshaman@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 13 January 2005 11:49 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] greetings
greetings,
i’m guessing that i might need to introduce myself. my name’s chretien and
i’ve been living in mexico this past year. i took the long hard road of
heroin addiction for 10 years until i met up with ibogaine. in a nutshell,
it saved my life and gave me renewed direction and i’ve been dope-free for
over 18 moons now. woohoo! anyways, i used to be on this list until i got
feed up with dead ends and no action, just alot of talk. maybe things are
different now, i know they are with me. ok, that’s my intro in a nutshell.
more later…
mucho amor,
chretien schiffer
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee/dfs
Date: January 12, 2005 at 10:11:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ahhhh the ole DHC’s!!! Yes I managed to stop hanging out with those things! They’re basically a synthetic codeine Howard….
I think I’d prefer a valium based pill for residuals, would help with any anxiety and sleep as well…. Once I’ve detoxed, putting things like DHC’s into my system makes me feel blah. Probly cos my liver is a bit tired!!
Anyway…. All the best Donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, 13 January 2005 5:29 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee/dfs
Hi Howard
Dyhidrocodine if that how you spell it!!!!!
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
From: “Justin Thyme” <junkieshaman@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] greetings
Date: January 12, 2005 at 5:49:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
greetings,
i’m guessing that i might need to introduce myself. my name’s chretien and i’ve been living in mexico this past year. i took the long hard road of heroin addiction for 10 years until i met up with ibogaine. in a nutshell, it saved my life and gave me renewed direction and i’ve been dope-free for over 18 moons now. woohoo! anyways, i used to be on this list until i got feed up with dead ends and no action, just alot of talk. maybe things are different now, i know they are with me. ok, that’s my intro in a nutshell. more later…
mucho amor,
chretien schiffer
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today – it’s FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] FWD fungal intelligence
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:23:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
ORIGINAL TEXT FOLLOWS:
Paul Stamets, one of the best known mushroom enthousiasts in the world,
is serious when he talks about the intelligence of mycelial networks. In
his view the fungal world consists of zillions of mycelial mats which
are in instant contact with eachother and exchange information much like
the internet works. In this way each mycelial cell of every network
‘knows’ where the it is needed to convert dead biomass (or petrochemical
pollution!) into compost.
The idea about fungal intelligence sounds pretty off the wall at first,
also to me, but I have to say that the following RealAudio program of
ABC Australia explains a lot. There is a mechanism which can explain it:
the small world phenomenon. No matter how large and interconnected a
network is, necessary information never needs to be more than a few
nodes/fungal cells away. Mycelial mats literally can ‘know’ about all
the places on this planet where they can convert waste into compost!
The program does not mention mycelia even once but listen to it. Or read
the transcript. It explains a lot!
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/default.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s1266953.htm
transcript:
The New Science of Networks
Saturday 8 January 2005
Summary
Q: What do Hollywood actor Kevin Bacon, a North American firefly, Al
Qaeda and the World Wide Web all have in common?
A: Each of them organise themselves in a network.
Annamaria Talas wrote and produced this Science Show special on the new
science of networks; the connectedness of nearly everything, which began
with Duncan Watts, an Australian PhD student from Cornell University,
and is set to change our understanding of the world.
Program Transcript
Robyn Williams: What do Hollywood actor Kevin Bacon, a North American
firefly, Al Qaeda and the World Wide Web have in common? Not much you
might think but in fact they’ve all played a big role in helping us make
one of the first really big new discoveries in science. Each of them
organise themselves in a network. There’s a mechanism by which actors,
insects, terrorists and web pages link together and make connections. We
used to think these links were more or less random but in the past few
years scientists studying networks have discovered an astonishing thing;
nature it seems has a hidden language and for the first time we’re able
to read it.
It’s a discovery that some are saying may prove to be as important as
Newton’s observations of gravity and Darwin’s theory of evolution. The
new science of networks is set to change our understanding of the world.
It all began with bugs and is so new there isn’t even a scientific word
for it – yet. This Science Show special is written and produced by
Annamaria Talas and presented by Simon Nasht.
President Bill Clinton: Today we are learning the language in which God
created life. We’re gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the
beauty, the wonder of God’s most divine and sacred gift.
Simon Nasht: Former US president, Bill Clinton, announcing the decoding
of the human genome, at a White House ceremony in 1999. But nature is
more than bits of pieces. Despite seeing the text of 3 billion chemical
letters of our genome – we still can’t read the book of life .
T.J Higgins: I think certainly at the beginning it was overestimated as
to what we would learn from just knowing what the coded instructions
were for every protein in a human or in a plant.
Simon Nasht: Professor T.J Higgins is deputy head of CSIRO Plant
Industry in Canberra. For centuries we’ve tried to understand the
Universe by pulling it apart – we’ve studied atoms to comprehend
creation, molecules to reveal life, genes to decipher human behaviour.
But nature organises itself in immensely complex ways. And in these huge
interconnected systems, where every player affects every other, the
linear logic of cause and effect falls apart. However there’s a
revolution in thinking taking place. Scientists from diverse disciplines
have begun to see how the world really connects. And the view is staggering.
Eugene Stanley: The big thing is that there is one single law that
explains a wide variety of networks.
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: When we look only in the level of the components
how they interact together, that is when we look at the nodes and links
and the networks they create they are more similar than different.
Richard Sole: These particular webs might explain some something that
we’ve been asking for years and years.
Eugene Stanley: In science usually when someone sees a simplifying
feature that says very, very profound consequences.
Simon Nasht: Today in the Science Show we’re joining a new generation of
scientists to witness what’s been called the first big idea of the 21st
Century. The new science of networks. And as with most discoveries, this
one has its own amazing story. It started with deep awe at the hidden
patterns in nature.
The swings of Foucault’s pendulum, an interpretation by Larry Sitsky.
Steve Strogatz: A very dramatic piece of music.
Simon Nasht: Steve Strogatz – Professor of Applied Mathematics at
Cornell University is an expert in complex systems. Steve, this music in
a way takes us back to the beginning of your career. What is it about
pendulums that fascinated you?
Steve Strogatz: I had a very visceral sort of reaction to my first
experiment in high school. I was just 13 years old. We all were given a
stopwatch and this pendulum and as we tried letting it swing 10 times
back and forth and then click record how long it takes and than we make
it longer, 10 times back and forth, click, and so on doing it over and
over again. As I started to make maybe 4 or 5 dots in the page, I’ve
noticed something spooky which was that these dots were falling on a
very particular curve that I recognised because I’ve seen it in my
algebra class it was what we call a parabola. And I can remember this
very chilling feeling, with, the proverbial hairs on the back of my neck
standing up thinking to myself, how could that be? How could this
pendulum know about algebra? In that moment, I suddenly understood what
people mean by the phrase, ‘Law of Nature’.
There is a hidden world that you can’t see unless you know mathematics.
It’s a secret world that suddenly becomes open to you and I felt likeI
was being told this marvellous secret and suddenly I was let into the
society.
Simon Nasht: Thirty years later Steve Strogatz, one of the world’s most
distinguished mathematicians is still fascinated by the patterns of
nature. Can you give us an example?
Steve Strogatz: I think one of the most visually spectacular is a
phenomenon that occurs in Southeast Asia. If you are say in a canoe
going down one of the tidal rivers from Bangkok out to the sea. On
pretty nearly any night of the year you’ll see an unbelievable display
of thousands upon thousands of fireflies in the mangrove trees. And what
is so odd about this is that they will all be flashing but not just that
they’re flashing in perfect synchrony – in perfect time together.
Simon Nasht: A decade ago, Professor Jonathan Copeland – a
neuroethologist and firefly researcher from Statesboro, Georgia, made
his own pilgrimage to South-East Asia.
Jonathan Copeland: What we were looking was called the silent counter.
We had come up the river in a canoe and off in the distance I could see
something flashing vaguely and we got closer and closer and then I
realized that it was the firefly tree.
Simon Nasht: For someone in your line of work it must have been quite a
sight.
Jonathan Copeland: It was breathtaking. It’s like a Christmas tree with
blinkered lights on it. The lights go on off, on off, on off, on off,
rhythmically and regularly through the night.
Simon Nasht: Professor Copeland’s adventures in Southeast Asia were
picked up by the press. And for Lynn Faust from Knoxville Tennessee, it
struck a cord.
Lynn Faust: The cover of the magazine had this firefly tree in Malaysia
and I picked it up thinking ‘Gosh! I wonder if there are talking about
the Elkmont fireflies in here’. And so reading the article and reading
the article realized that there was a statement made that there was only
this one synchronized species in the world and it was in Malaysia. And I
thought no, no, we have been watching them for years up in Elkmont!
Jonathan Copeland: I thought it was another crank call. Not so much
because of what was being described but because the prevailing dogma at
that time was that North American fireflies just did not synchronize.
Lynn Faust: It’s a unison blinking, it is pounding you almost feel like
you should hear drum beats it is so rhythmic, pulsating. And on the
hillside it is more like a waterfall.
Simon Nasht: Professor Copeland was intrigued and approached Lynn with
an unusual request.
Jonathan Copeland: What I asked her to do was to draw five lines like a
musical staff and have every line represent a different firefly.
Lynn Faust: So I said well sure, I will try. And it’s funny when you
watch something as a thing of beauty that is very different from
watching it scientifically. They blinked 6 times in rapid succession and
then they’re dark for six seconds. There were a lot of individuals – and
that you do get a few early birds and you get a few late ones, you know
that blink a little past everybody else – but in general it’s a mass
synchrony. When you see it you can’t believe that you are looking in
silence. So I guess it does bring something musical out in you because
it’s so rhythmic.
Simon Nasht: We had composer Llaszlo Kiss turn Lynn’s original
observations into a symphony for fireflies. But the ability to
synchronize isn’t exclusive to bugs. It seems that at the heart of the
Universe there is a steady, insistent beat.
Steve Strogatz: Synchrony is one of the most pervasive phenomena in
nature. That in the sense that it occurs in every scale from the
smallest scale of subatomic particles to the grandest scale of the
cosmos, the solar system.
Simon Nasht: What were the big questions that intrigued you, what were
the outstanding major, philosophical questions really about synchrony?
Steve Strogatz: You’re right to put your finger on the word
philosophical because some of them do touch on very deep philosophical
issues. I’m thinking in particular of the question of where is the
source of all the order in the Universe? We see order all around us. We
see ecosystems with hundreds of thousands of species interacting and
it’s all stable. We see the structures of our own body, it’s incredible
with all of those different organs and trillions of cells in our brain
capable of consciousness and love and hate and wanting to write music
like the song you played at the beginning. And so these questions of how
simple individuals like brain cells, or fireflies or the atoms in a
laser can conspire to create marvellous organised structures and do it
on their own. That is a very deep question for a scientist because so
long we’ve been taught that the universe has this opposite tendency that
things left to their own will degenerate, will tend towards ever greater
entropy – meaning greater disorder or greater randomness. And yet we see
lots of examples of things that do just the opposite that seem to drive
themselves to ever greater patterns.
Simon Nasht: So how does chaos synchronize? And can its patterns be
revealed by mathematics? Steve Strogatz wanted to find out.
Steve Strogatz: So we were looking for a case that would be tractable.
And it happens that in Ithaca, where I live there is a particular
species of cricket, called the snowy tree cricket which just happens to
chorus. That is hundreds of thousands of the male crickets at night will
be out chirping rhythmically in unison in an attempt to attract females.
Simon Nasht: All of this sounded pretty interesting to Strogatz’s PhD
student – at the time a young Australian– Duncan Watts.
Duncan Watts: There is a lot of biological interest in this and there is
also a lot of mathematics involved. And we were doing some experiments
with some crickets that we had caught on the campus of Cornell.
Simon Nasht: So set the scene for me a little bit – a couple of grown
men climbing around trees in the campus. What did they think of you?
Duncan Watts: Well, one grown man which was me…so there was a little
sort of physical adventure involved and then we took them inside and
when we caught a few into a sound-proof chamber in the laboratory and
subjected them to different kinds of simulated chirps.
Steve Strogatz: And the hope was that by studying the way that
individual crickets respond to the chirps of others, that we could
figure out what it was about their interaction that led to them all
synchronising.
Duncan Watts: We were wondering how when you put you know many, many
crickets possibly hundreds of crickets together on a tree, each of which
has its own particular rhythm that it follows in isolation, when you put
them together they somehow interact with each other and all end up
chirping perfectly together.
Steve Strogatz: The real problem was that it wasn’t understood
mathematically why all of these interactions would inevitably lead to
synchrony. Why couldn’t they for instance just result in some kind of
cacophony? And as he was out in the field, Duncan came to realise that
the assumptions we were making in our theories were completely
ridiculous. We had been assuming that individual crickets could be
thought of as arranged sort of like the squares on the checker board. A
very regular arrangement, because that’s the kind of thing that
physicists have worked out good theories for. And yet clearly that
wasn’t what was happening. They were all over the place in the trees and
it got Duncan thinking.
Duncan Watts: They couldn’t all be listening to each other equally;
probably each one was only listening to a few others.
Steve Strogatz: Do I even know which cricket can hear which other and
does it really matter? How does the pattern of their connection affect
their ability to synchronize?
Duncan Watts: We started to imagine a tree full of crickets as a 3
dimensional network where every individual in the tree was somehow
influencing and responding to some of the others. In some ways it’s like
a network of friends. You know other people and you influence them and
they influence you. But you don’t know everybody in the world and not
everybody influences you equally.
Steve Strogatz: And so from that he got an idea in his head which was
suddenly triggered into fruition by something his father said.
Duncan Watts: He just mentioned this story which at the time I took to
be an urban myth which was what we now call, ‘Six Degrees of Separation’
or what sociologists call, ‘The Small World Problem’.
Steve Strogatz: That term by the way comes from the experience we’ve all
had where you’re travelling a foreign country and suddenly you’re
standing on the steps of a cathedral in Florence and you find that you
meet someone you went to elementary school with or someone who knows
your cousin or whatever and then both people say, ‘Ah, it’s a small world!’
Duncan Watts: And my Dad mentioned this to me and he said well did you
know that anybody can connect themselves to the President of the US in
just six handshakes?
Simon Nasht: Six Degrees of Separation became something of an urban myth
following John Guare’s 1990 play.
Excerpt from film, Six Degrees of Separation: I read somewhere that
everybody on this planet is separated by only six other people. Six
degrees of separation between us and everybody else on this planet, The
president of the United States, a gondolier in Venice. It’s not just the
big names. It’s anyone. A native in the rainforest, a Tierra del Fuegan,
an Eskimo. I am bound – you are bound to everyone on this planet by a
trail of six people. It’s a profound thought.
Simon Nasht: That was Stockard Channing in the film version of Six
Degrees of Separation. However, the original idea came from a famous
sociology experiment in the 1960s – designed by Harvard psychologist,
Stanley Milgram.
Duncan Watts: He was a great experimenter. So he designed this method
that even today is called the small world method, where he picked a
single person in Boston. So Milgram nominated him as a target of this
experiment and then he chose about 300 other people whom he called
senders. And about 100 of those were chosen randomly from the population
of Boston and the other 200 came from Omaha Nebraska. Milgram
deliberately picked Omaha not just because it was geographically distant
from Boston but because it was also socially distant.
Simon Nasht: Milgram wanted to find out the ‘distance’ between any two
people in America. 300 randomly chosen men and women had to find someone
they didn’t know and all they had to go was that he was from Boston.
Actor reading Milgram’s words: OK, OK – now listen up. This is what I
want you to do. If you actually know the target person mail the package
directly to them. You only do this if you know the person or if you’ve
previously met the target person and know them on a first name basis. If
you don’t know the target person don’t try to contact them by asking
around. Don’t look them up. Instead, mail the package to someone you
know who is more likely than you to know the target person. You can send
the package to a friend, to a relative or an acquaintance, it just has
to be someone you know on a first name basis. And then they’ll do the
same thing.
Duncan Watts: What he set up effectively was a series of chain letters
that wended their ways through different professions and different towns
and different demographics and about 20% of them or roughly 60 made it
to the target. And of those 60 the average length, the number of steps
in each of those chains was about six. So I thought that was an
interesting thought. I had these two problems in my mind – one about
crickets synchronizing and one about networks of social relationships
and whether or not those networks had this unusual or seemingly
surprising property that everyone can could connect to everyone else in
just a few steps. And I started to wonder if maybe they had something to
say about each other.
Simon Nasht: Assuming that network structure and synchronicity must be
well-covered subjects, Watts went to look it up.
Duncan Watts: You know when you are at graduate student you assume that
every question that comes into your head has been already answered. But
once I have started to look I realized that very little had been done
and what had been done didn’t really fit with this picture that I was
starting to think about in terms of my cricket problem.
Simon Nasht: Not only was the relationship between networks and
synchronization completely unexplored, no one really seemed to have
thought about big complex networks at all. Except for one – an eccentric
Hungarian mathematician, Paul Erdös.
Steve Strogatz: So he really was a pioneer in our understanding of
enormous large complex networks.
Simon Nasht: Erdös was the first to ask questions about networks. He
wanted to know how many links it took between isolated groups to form a
network in which they could all talk to each other. These questions were
important because the threshold between isolation and connectedness is
crucial for understanding the flow of information, the spread of
disease, the movement of money; the workings of our modern world. Erdös
was a genius with eccentricities to match.
Steve Strogatz: He essentially lived as a homeless person and travelled
around from one mathematician to another. He would knock on your door
and say, ‘My brain is open’. Which meant he’s ready to work with you on
some unsolved math problem. And you were then to take care of him
because he was so incompetent in all aspects of daily life. He was like
a baby except he was a mathematical genius.
George Csicsery: As I got to know Paul Erdös I developed a sense that he
was actually quite clever and he had designed a perfect life for himself.
Simon Nasht: George Csicsery is a documentary filmmaker who made a
portrait of Erdös.
George Csicsery: Not knowing how to boil an egg guaranteed that someone
else would do it for you. Not knowing how to go shopping guaranteed that
someone else would go shopping for you. So this gave him an immense
amount of freedom to pursue the thing he really cared about, which was
mathematics.
Simon Nasht: Erdös was a prolific mathematician. He published 1500
papers in his lifetime with several hundred colleagues.
George Csicsery: He would find new approaches to the problems that other
people were working on. And this is how he developed so many collaborations.
Paul Erdös: Somebody asked me a problem and sometimes I see immediately
what do you have to do. And then later one has to carry out the details.
And very often it works immediately that you know that you are on the
right track. Of course sometimes you are deceived.
Simon Nasht: One of Erdös’s theories was developed with his countryman –
Albert Renyi – the theory of random networks.
Albert-László Barabási: Erdös had a particular model of how networks
would look like whether it is a social network or any other network.
That is let’s assume that the nodes are connected randomly.
Simon Nasht: Albert-László Barabási Professor of Physics at University
of Notre Dame, yet another Hungarian and one of the leading thinkers in
the science of networks. Erdös hypothesised that in networks information
can spread extremely quickly.
Albert-László Barabási: Let me give you an example of a cocktail party.
If you would organize a cocktail party let’s say with a hundred people
which are carefully selected that nobody knows anybody else actually so
when they come to the room there are no acquaintances over there and you
would find that people would start pairing up – you know forming groups
of 2 or 3 or 4 and start chatting and getting introduced and so on. And
among the many many wines there is one particular bottle that is like a
prized Hungarian Tokai. And you would just tell it just to one person.
The question is how long would it take until everybody in the party
would know that. Now if you do a little bit of math and you assume that
every 2 people would talk for kind of 10 minutes before they get bored
with each other and move on to somebody else, you’d figure out that for
about 100 people it would take about 16 hours. It takes about 20-30 minutes.
Imagine that you would start connecting with invisible lines the people
who have met and they talked to each other, who could actually pass on
information to each other. And what you find is that first you have just
lines between pairs and trios of people. But then as people start
mixing, then like a giant component emerges when everybody suddenly
becomes in a few minutes part of one big network. And Erdös told us that
for that to happen it is sufficient that everybody knows at least one
other person. When you reach this threshold of one node per link then
suddenly out of nothing this giant cluster emerges which is very similar
to a phase transition.
Duncan Watts: Which is that you go from a world in which everything is
disconnected to a world in which very, very suddenly everything gets
connected.
Albert-László Barabási: And a good example is to think about how water
freezes.
Duncan Watts: It’s not the case that right at the freezing point you
just get a little bit of frozen water and then as you get colder you get
more and more. It’s either all frozen or it’s not frozen.
Albert-László Barabási: So you go from this stage of disorder of a
chaotic motion to the phase of order.
Duncan Watts: What Erdös and Renyi managed to show is that the same kind
of phase transition occurs in networks.
Simon Nasht: The way in which water molecules form ice can be thought of
as crickets chirp, or fireflies flash in unison or how randomly
introduced people in a party learn about the precious wine. They all
reach a tipping point where suddenly order emerges from chaos. It was
Erdös who identified this phase transition as it’s called in networks.
But for all his brilliance he wasn’t able to move beyond the
theoretical. Back in the 50s there was no way to test his ideas. Real
networks aren’t as readily connected as Erdös imagined. Life is not a
Hungarian cocktail party where connectivity is just a handshake away.
Duncan Watts: Now if that were the case in the real world, in the social
world, then you would be just as likely to know someone in rural China
as somebody down the street.
Steve Strogatz: If I have two friends, the chances of them knowing each
other are much greater than if I just asked two people at random on the
surface of the Earth whether they know each other. Two of my friends
have much greater chance because I may have introduced them. They are
part of my circle. This same property we find is true in many naturally
occurring networks as well that there it tends to be a kind of
clumpiness to their structure, which you don’t see, in random networks.
Simon Nasht: And this clumpiness, this clustering makes the world in a
way, larger. It slows down connectivity, the flow of information, as you
are more likely to have more links within your own circle. Yet Milgram’s
experiment with the packages showed us that somehow we can still manage
to reach anyone in just a few steps. So how can the world be both
clustered AND connected? This is the paradox at the heart of the small
world problem.
Duncan Watts: It became clear to me and also to Steve, that we had
stumbled on something that everybody in science is more or less looking
for, which is a new problem.
Steve Strogatz: He had a particular question that he posed to me which
was what could we say how a network like this would synchronize? Would
it synchronize better than the square grid we had been thinking about or
would it synchronize better than one of Erdös’s random networks? And
then Duncan raised an even larger question – we should be looking at all
kind of networks, everything out there is a network today. Is the World
Wide Web like this? Does it have this property that every web page is
just a few clicks away from every other? What about the network of
neurons in your brain? I’ve heard neurologists saying every neuron is
just a few synapses from every other. Is that really true?
Duncan Watts: We started to believe that the way the system behaves –
can a population synchronize or variously can an organization solve a
complicated problem, can an epidemic of disease break out and spread
around the world, can a particular sort of fad become popular, or not
become popular? Lots of these behavioural questions have to do with how
the system is connected and therefore have to do with the networks.
Steve Strogatz: We started to ask ourselves what would it be like for a
network to have this property of being a small world of satisfying
something like six degrees of separation.
Duncan Watts: And what we were looking for was a world – a kind of world
– in which you had the high clustering, the fact that most of your
friends know each other and also the short path links. The fact, that
you can get from anyone to anyone else in just a few steps.
Simon Nasht: But instead of trying to ‘measure’ the world, – as Milgram
did with his packages – they’ve decided to move in between the two
theoretical extremes; from the completely clustered to the totally
random world, – in the hope to tuning in to the world we live in.
Steve Strogatz: And we tried to imagine just by drawing pictures on
paper with dots connected by lines what it would take. And one picture
stood out. We drew lots of complicated things but as we paired it down
we started to realize what was very important were what we came to call
shortcuts. Just a few shortcuts and the world was contracted as small as
it could be. And so from this we came to think that since the conditions
on a small world were so mild, that you only needed a shortcuts in any
network. We started to think that in fact this property of being a small
world should be ubiquitous and that if we could just get our hands on
real data, for giant networks we’d see the same pair of properties.
Duncan Watts: When we have looked at this whole universe of worlds we
found that almost everything is like this.
Simon Nasht: How did you go about testing this?
Steve Strogatz: We came up with what seems like a whimsical example –
the Hollywood network of actors who have been in movies together.
Simon Nasht: In 1997 computer scientists Brett Tjaden and Glenn Wasson
at University of Virginia launched an amusing website – the Oracle of
Kevin Bacon. This is a game where every actor can be connected to Bacon
by the movies in which they’ve played together. If, for instance, the
actor played with Bacon in the same film, he’s given a Bacon number one.
If he’s never been in a film with him, but has been in a film with
someone else who has been in a film with Kevin Bacon, he’s given a Bacon
number of two.
Steve Strogatz: So for instance Charlie Chaplin who acted in silent
films in the 20s and 30s you might think, well, how could I connect
Charlie Chaplin to Kevin Bacon. But you can. Charlie Chaplin was in the
movie Countess from Hong Kong with Marlon Brando. Marlon Brando was in
Apocalypse Now with Lawrence Fishburn. and Lawrence Fishburn was in
Quicksilver with Kevin Bacon. That’s three movies separating Chaplin
from Bacon and so for that reason we would say that Charlie Chaplin has
a Bacon number of three.
Simon Nasht: The game is based on half a million actors listed in the
Internet movie database – a micro-cosmos of the social world.
Duncan Watts: And we were able to get hold of that database and look for
the features that we had predicted, this high clustering and short pathlink.
Simon Nasht: As it turned out not only Kevin Bacon but every actor could
be connected to every other in an average of less than 4 steps. It was
small world. To test their model further Strogatz and Watts went looking
for networks that had nothing to do with the social world.
Duncan Watts: There was nothing in this model that made it seem like it
was about people and friendships. It was just about nodes and links.
Steve Strogatz: There was data available for this network of 5000 power
plants and all their transmission lines.
Duncan Watts: So in one case you have movie actors and they are linked
by co-starring in movies, in another case you have power stations linked
by transmission cables.
Simon Nasht: And much to their delight they’d found the same phenomenon
as before. And because in small worlds the flow of information is very
efficient it was natural to wonder whether the nervous system also
exploits this trick.
Steve Strogatz: There is only one nervous system that has been fully
mapped out and it’s the nervous system of a very simple creature, a
worm, called C. elegans which has just about 900 hundred cells in it’s
whole body, of which are about 300 devoted to the nervous system.
Duncan Watts: So I emailed a friend of Steve’s at Columbia University
actually who was an expert on C.elegans and he said ‘Oh, yes! We have
done that.’ And he gave me a reference. Oddly enough it wasn’t just a
description of the network, they had actually encoded it into a pair of
floppy disks. I went to the librarian and she said, ‘Ah no don’t have
them, sorry’. So I was very crestfallen because this was our last great
hope for a network to study and we didn’t know what to do and a couple
of days later the librarian actually called me back and said they’d
found them in a box somewhere in the basement.
Simon Nasht: And sure enough, when Watts and Strogatz looked at the
neural map of C.elegans the results didn’t disappoint. The brain of that
worm was a small world too.
Steve Strogatz: All of these networks, all turn out to be small worlds.
It’s not just a curiosity or a quirk about how are they connected, there
is real meaning to it. Like in the case of the nervous systems the fact
that everything is just a few synapses away from everything else helps
the network communicate and sends signals rapidly. It may make even
higher functions possible at least in the case of the human brain like
perception or attention or consciousness. In the case of the power grid
the connectivity helps the rapid transmission of power back and forth.
And of course sometimes this sort of connectivity is undesirable like in
the case of computer viruses surging across the internet.
Simon Nasht: In 1998 Strogatz and Watts published their landmark
findings in Nature magazine. Their discovery was the beginning of the
new science of networks.
Steve Strogatz: It seemed like it could be revolutionary for all of
science because networks occur in every field from economics to physics.
So the undertaking of looking into the structure of these gigantic
networks was extremely exciting.
Duncan Watts: It was kind of like hitting the jackpot. It was my very
first publication ever and as my father explained to me it was all
downhill from there.
Simon Nasht: Just 10 month later, Albert-Laszlo Barabasi contacted Watts.
Duncan Watts: And he was looking for some of the data sets that we had
been using, and several months later actually he published a very nice
paper in Science.
Simon Nasht: Barabasi and his team were trying to probe a truly gigantic
network – the World Wide Web.
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: We wanted to know who is connected to whom and
for that reason we built up this robot that started from a web page and
went to every single web page it could go from there and then went from
those web pages to where you could go and step by step built up a map of
the World Wide Web.
Simon Nasht: The web is a jungle where anyone is free to put up a page
and add a link to any other they choose. In this democratic mess, there
was no reason to expect any bias; that some pages would be significantly
more connected than others.
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: Once we had the map we could start looking how
democratic it is. And the big surprise was that it was by no means
democratic. What we have found was that instead of most pages with
roughly the same number of links, we found many, many pages that had
only one or two links. There were however a few web pages that had a
very large number of links, like Yahoo and Google and Amazon and a
couple of other pages were like these hubs, these highly connected nodes.
Simon Nasht: Barabasi had found structure where he didn’t expect it. But
did this discovery of a few highly connected hubs apply just to the web,
or was it a feature of other networks too? Barabasi needed another
example to test, so he went back to the Hollywood database. Watts and
Strogatz had established that actors lived in a small world, closely
connected through the movies in which they’ve worked. But was there and
underlying structure to the network? Are there hubs in Hollywood?
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: Sure enough the same picture emerged. That is
that you had many actors that had played with only few actors together
during their career so they had only a few links to other actors but
then you had a few that had thousands of links to other actors.’
Simon Nasht: When they studied the most connected actors, Barabasi’s
team discovered that it was a mixture of the most prolific and those who
had worked in different genres who were at the top of the list. Not the
Tom Hanks and Humphrey Bogarts, but the character actors like Rod
Steiger, Donald Pleasance and Christopher Lee. And in today’s Hollywood,
the actor most connected to everyone else, is The West Wing’s President,
Martin Sheen.
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: So that was the second hint that this is perhaps
not a peculiar property of the world wide web but hubs emerge in other
networks as well. And sure enough then we started looking systematically
in other networks and other people have started looking at other
networks as well and more networks were looked at more and more a
general kind of picture has emerged that networks are dominated by hubs.
They seem to be an inherent property of most large networks in nature
whether you think about the world wide web, the cell, if you think about
the cell as a network, whether you think about social networks or the
Internet or you name it.
Simon Nasht: But why do all these different networks end up looking so
similar? How does Nature spin its web?
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: Yes, that was actually a pretty big question.
And really if you think about how networks had become the way they are,
you had to realise that networks always started out with a few nodes and
they grow out from that. So you don’t have six billion nodes that you
have to somehow connect together, they are not static objects, they are
growing, they are expanding through the addition of new modes and links
into the system.
So that’s one important part. The other part, when new node decides
where to link, it doesn’t do so randomly. But it prefers to connect to
the nodes that are highly connected in the first place. If you decide
where you connect on the World Wide Web, you connect to the pages that
you know. And inevitably the pages that you are familiar with are those
pages that have a very large number of links in the first place, because
that’s how you got to know them. If a page is very connected, more
connected than anybody else, the new nodes will tend to connect to it,
so therefore it will go faster than the less connected pages.
So what kicks in is what we call a ‘Rich Gets Richer’ phenomenon. Where
a rich node will grow faster than a poorer node and will eventually
become a hub. So this architecture which we see is pretty much
unavoidable for these different types of networks. They don’t have much
of a choice. They are bound to follow this architecture because the way
these networks are formed is governed by very simple common laws.
Simon Nasht: Barabasi’s discovery of this simple organizing law inspired
American composer Mike Edgerton to write this sonata – performed
especially for The Science Show in Berlin.
It’s not an easy piece to play. Was the complexity a function of trying
to follow the laws or did simple laws just reveal a complex piece of music?
Mike Edgerton: The generating structures were incredibly simple and so I
thought that was pretty interesting that we don’t need to have really
complicated mathematics to put together complicated music. I found that
this is a really nice opportunity to meld the two worlds together.
Simon Nasht: How did you apply the theories or the laws of scale free
networks?
Mike Edgerton: Well it kind of worked in terms of a large general
metaphor. But the other way was more literal and this had to do with how
the structure and the actual pictures and rhythms were generated. What I
had done was I had identified a series of base values; rhythmic or
temporal values, which I viewed as hubs and then over those I had an
irregular number of innerations that were applied within each value and
then it would cycle through at different rates.
Simon Nasht: Slowly, the hidden structure of Nature is revealing itself.
And the more we learn about how networks are organised, the more we see
their strengths and weaknesses, with profound implications for all of us.
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: These hub dominated networks are very robust
against random failures that is you can knock out 80% of the nodes and
the 20% remaining nodes will be still be able to talk to each other.
However, they are very fragile against attacks. If you know how the
network looks like, you can easily break them into pieces. And this
finding has many, many consequences.
Mark Newman: So one important application is if we can vaccinate people
in the network or in some other way prevent them from catching the
disease, then that removes them from the network and if we can remove
enough people from the network in that way the point where the network
itself collapses then the disease cannot spread any more.
Richard Sole: The way ecosystems might vanish in the future is going to
depend on how much we understand about the web structure. In some,
actually some naturalists and some field ecologists are strongly
preventing us of thinking of ecosystems like independent species and a
properly conserved ecosystem means conserve the web of interactions.
Alessandro Vespigniani: These systems are driven by necessity in the
sense that the system is evolving and you try to optimise itself for
some task. An example is the internet. The internet is a self organising
system and this is trying to optimise itself for data transmission and
for reliability.
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: But then there is another aspect of network
robustness and vulnerability and that has to do with what we call a
cascading failures and a good example of that was year’s big Eastern
United States power grid failure. Failure of a generator has created
disturbances in the network that resulted in the shut down of a number
of generators and within a 25 second time frame the whole Eastern United
States was without electricity. And it’s a wonderful example that while
networks offer lots of benefits by allowing to spread not only
information but also resources like electricity very widely among a very
large number of people, they also carry these vulnerabilities that a
local disturbance, a local problem can suddenly become, through the
network a global problem.
Duncan Watts: The SARS virus provided something of a global scare
because it was spreading from individual to individual from a very
remote location in south eastern China to Hong Kong and to Taiwan and to
Vietnam and then finally on to Canada. And for a while there nobody knew
where it was going to stop. And so in that kind of environment for that
kind of problem, the fact that we can all be connected to each other
through some short chain of intermediaries is actually extremely
pertinent. The kind of mathematics that we see in these sorts of
networks that we study is very similar to the spread of that particular
epidemic.
Simon Nasht: Another network of course that’s in people’s minds at the
moment are terrorist networks.
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: The way we think and I think most people think
about terrorist networks is no different to the way we think about the
World Wide Web. The existence of a network really implies that something
is flowing along the links. And in the case of the terrorist networks,
supplies, information and money which is really the one which is flowing
in the network. And in the moment you actually cut these supplies, then
you have the possibility of starting a cascading failure in the system
that could successfully break the whole network down.
Simon Nasht: On a personal level Laszlo, how does it feel to have been
privy to such a remarkable discovery?
Albert-Laszlo Barabasi: Well, it perhaps gives you hope that there is
more out there. There are other organizing principles that we still have
to see and so it motivates me to think harder and to try to see what
else could we learn about nature, about society, about the world around
us by looking at it as a network.
Simon Nasht: The science of networks is just beginning, and there’s
surely much more to be discovered. But already it’s forcing us to look
at the world differently.
Steve Strogatz: We’ve made tremendous progress in science for 300 years,
since the days of Isaac Newton and the scientific revolution by chopping
problems up into smaller and smaller bits and analysing the tiniest
parts. From whole organisms we look at cells, and then from cells we
look at genes. And by studying genes and then down to DNA we’ve made
wonderful progress but the time has come to move back up. I mean how we
understand the behaviour of a whole economy? How do we understand the
resilience and stability of ecosystems? Or global warming? These are
problems with a similar character in that you can’t understand them by
looking at the little bits. And this is a daunting challenge – going up
turns out to be much harder that going down. Synthesis and holism is
much more scientifically subtle than analysis and reductionism.
Duncan Watts: The problem is that everything we experience is local in
the sense that it’s right around us. But the small world phenomenon is a
global phenomenon and we really don’t have good intuitions about global
phenomena and we need a new paradigm for understanding how it does work.
And I think that that paradigm is starting to come into focus with this
science of networks.
Simon Nasht: It sounds to me like we’re facing the 21st century’s great
scientific challenge.
Steve Strogatz: Yes, that’s right. The thing that is going to have the
most impact on human affairs is going to be the understanding of complex
systems.
Robyn Williams: The connectedness of nearly everything. Something David
Suzuki always says about us and nature. That Science Show Special was
written by Annamaria Talas and presented by Simon Nasht, production by
David Fisher. Next week the science of torture.
Guests on this program:
Steve Strogatz
Professor of Applied Mathematics
Cornell University
Author: ‘Synch:The Emerging Science
of Spontaneous Order’
Published by; Hyperion 2003
http://tam.cornell.edu/Strogatz.html
Jonathan Copeland
Professor of Biology
Neuroethologist & firefly researcher
Southern Georgia University
Statesboro
Georgia
http://alpha.marsci.uga.edu/coastalcouncil/Affiliates/copeland_jonathan.htm
Lynn Faust
Knoxville
Tennessee
http://www.acfnewsource.org/science/firefly_find.html
Duncan Watts
Assoc Prof of Sociology
Columbia University
Author: ‘Six Degrees:The Science of a Connected Age’
Published by: WW Norton 2003
http://smallworld.columbia.edu/watts.html
George Csicsery
Documentary Film Maker
‘N is a Number’
Albert-László Barabási
Professor of Physics
University of Notre Dame
Author: ‘Linked – The New Science of Networks”
http://www.nd.edu/~alb/
Further information:
Erdos Number Project
http://www.oakland.edu/enp/
Oracle of Kevin Bacon
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/oracle/
Internet Movie Database
http://www.imdb.com/
Small World Project
http://smallworld.columbia.edu/
Mike Edgerton – Composer
http://www.geocities.com/edgertonmichael/
Laszlo Kiss
Presenter: Robyn Williams
Producer: Annamaria Talas and David Fisher
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From: “boaz wachtel” <wachtel@shani.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee/dfs
Date: January 12, 2005 at 2:56:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dona – do not even think of taking opiates for a few days after treatment. If you think you have some withdrawal take a very small dose of Ibogaine for a few days.
boaz
—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:40 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee/dfs
Donna, I have to say this. Try and not take any opiates at all. You shouldn’t have them around you when you take the Ibogaine. Your tolerance will be different and people have died like that. Someone with more info can tell you more about how long the effect is, but I don’t think anyone will recommend taking opiates after Ibogaine. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] To guy who has friend with clinic in Lex. Ky.
Date: January 12, 2005 at 2:08:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Faith, my friend runs the one for Comp Care in Lexington. They have a waiting list that is 2 years long. I could call him but I don’t know if it will help getting your son in. There is a clinic in Lexington on Southland Drive that is a pay clinic. I don’t think they have a waiting list. All they care about is money but it would at least get your son off the street dope. I could get him into some good counseling at Comp Care I’m sure. The pay clinic shouldn’t be that hard to do. It will cost about 400 bucks all in all, to get in. Randy
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee
Date: January 12, 2005 at 1:06:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
yes, same here Donna, best wishes and luck to you on your journey.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee
In a message dated 1/12/05 4:51:11 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com writes:
<<
I really hope I feel like you the middle of next week, I to know ibogaine is
the answer for me and I am so excited and apprehensive about sunday but watch
this space!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
All eyes.
Howard
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From: “Faith Bowling” <bchloej@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] To guy who has friend with clinic in Lex. Ky.
Date: January 12, 2005 at 1:05:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please contact me with this info. My personal E is bchloej@hotmail.com. Thanks. Faith
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Date: January 12, 2005 at 12:58:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I mean, Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, not Temple. I keep thinking temple though.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
It’s gonna be held at Alex Gray’s Temple of Sacred Mirrors, which I HIGHLY recommend any and all to visit when in Manhattan.
It’s a beautiful and awe inspiring place.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:00 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Cures-Not-Wars is in the final stages of organizing a two-day ibogaine forum
to be held Sunday, February 20 and Monday, February 21, 2005. Just wanted to
give the list a heads up on the days. I am hoping Dana will post the
preliminary schedule and look forward to seeing as many of you as can make it.
Howard
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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Modafinil for coke–what about speed?
Date: January 12, 2005 at 12:42:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Posted on Tue, Jan. 11, 2005
Drug offers cocaine addicts hope
Modafinil boosts alertness and may curb impulsiveness, a Penn study shows.
By Stacey Burling
Inquirer Staff Writer
After decades of failed attempts to find a drug that helps addicts kick cocaine, researchers at the University of Pennsylvania say they have finally found a medication that looks promising – a drug currently approved to treat sleepiness.
Addicts who took modafinil – used to treat narcolepsy and help pilots and night-shift workers stay alert – were about twice as likely to avoid cocaine in a given week as those who received a placebo pill, according to a small Penn study published this month in the Journal of Neuropsychopharmacology.
Patients taking the medicine, marketed as Provigil, were also nearly three times as likely as unmedicated counterparts to stay off cocaine for a three-week stretch – 33 percent vs. 13 percent, said Charles Dackis, chief of psychiatry at Penn’s Medical Center-Presbyterian and lead investigator of the 62-patient study.
The National Institute on Drug Abuse funded the Penn study and is paying for three longer, larger studies as well.
The institute is also funding similar studies of three other medicines: baclofen, which is used to treat spastic disorders; topiramate, an anti-convulsant; and disulfiram or Antabuse. Ultimately, the medicines may be targeted at specific subgroups within the nation’s 1.5 million cocaine users, said Frank Vocci, director of the division of pharmacotherapies and medical consequences of drug abuse.
Modafinil, he said, has qualities that could “propel it to the top.” Addicts don’t mind its side effects and like its “alerting effect.” It may also reduce impulsiveness, a key factor in addiction.
Given the high percentage of addicts in the study who still used cocaine, the drug clearly is not a cure for cocaine addiction, which is notoriously difficult to treat. But it may be an important, early step toward better drug therapies, said Robert Malcolm, a Medical University of South Carolina psychiatrist who heads another of the modafinil studies. “Is this drug a home run?” he asked. “No. Maybe it’s a single or at best a double.”
Nonetheless, he and Dackis said modafinil is the most promising drug they have seen for cocaine addiction in 20 years.
Dackis said researchers had tried as many as a 100 drugs against cocaine during that time with no success.
Modafinil, made by Cephalon Inc. of West Chester, earned $300 million in 2003 and has projected sales of $410 million for 2004. The company is awaiting word on its request to market the drug for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Dackis believes that modafinil helps restore function to the brain’s pleasure center, which is thrown chemically off balance by long-term cocaine use. Addicts often say they don’t “feel right” without cocaine. “You’re craving something that will make you feel better,” he said.
Modafinil, he added, “does promote a sense of well being but not euphoria and certainly not the rush of euphoria you experience with cocaine.” One of his previous studies showed that the drug blunted the cocaine euphoria. The government lists modafinil as having mild potential for abuse. Dackis said he saw no evidence that modafanil is addictive.
A middle-aged man who participated in the Penn study believes the drug helped him go 14 weeks without cocaine, an unusually long time for him during 15 years of addiction.
“I had more energy to stay focused on things I had to do on my job, things I had to do at home, at church,” he said. “I didn’t have time to sneak off into North Philly and get lost.”
The man, a professional with a college degree who asked that his name not be used, said he stopped taking the medicine when the study ended. He used cocaine again last week. Now, he has asked his primary-care doctor to prescribe modafinil for him. He also plans to go back into therapy. “I guess I need that crutch,” he said.
Contact staff writer Stacey Burling at 215-854-4944 or sburling@phillynews.com.
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee/dfs
Date: January 12, 2005 at 12:39:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Donna, I have to say this. Try and not take any opiates at all. You shouldn’t have them around you when you take the Ibogaine. Your tolerance will be different and people have died like that. Someone with more info can tell you more about how long the effect is, but I don’t think anyone will recommend taking opiates after Ibogaine. Randy
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee/dfs
Date: January 12, 2005 at 11:29:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Howard
Dyhidrocodine if that how you spell it!!!!!
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee- Donna
Date: January 12, 2005 at 11:28:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Julie
Thanks for tips about residule withdrawals, no im coming off heroin. I’ll keep you posted
Love donna
From: laurentsazy <laurentsazy@free.fr>
Subject: [Ibogaine] happy new year 2005
Date: January 12, 2005 at 9:52:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
to all iboganautes
i wish an happy new year , heart, love and creation
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee/dfs
Date: January 12, 2005 at 9:37:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/12/05 5:54:56 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com writes:
<< yeah my provider has told me no coffee and to start drinking water now, he
also said try and get hold of some dfs for any residual withdrawals thanks
for
the advice i wont sweat about not sleeping the way i look at it is i have
been asleep for so long on heroin if you know what i mean, how is your
sleeping
know?? also of people have said lie still, what about vitamins afterwards did
you take any????? I really really appreciate yours and everyones advice on
the list. >>
Sorry to be so non informed but, what are dfs?
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 12, 2005 at 9:35:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/12/05 5:09:06 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com writes:
<< Thank you for your kind words 2pm sunday uk time I am so excited and can
not
wait to feel clean again but i am a bit scared. I will see how i go with
recovery but im not the sort of person to be down for long, Heroin has taken
me
away emotionally from my boy for to long so the sooner i can get back to
normal the better >>
Think… better than normal. Scared is OK. Good luck and enjoy the wonder
of it.
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee
Date: January 12, 2005 at 9:32:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/12/05 4:51:11 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com writes:
<<
I really hope I feel like you the middle of next week, I to know ibogaine is
the answer for me and I am so excited and apprehensive about sunday but watch
this space!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
All eyes.
Howard
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee- Donna
Date: January 12, 2005 at 9:28:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Donna,
Best of luck on your Ibonauting journey. About the
residual withdrawals- personally, I found marijuana to
be quite useful in controlling/alleviating the
discomfort. Melatonin helped for sleep, and ginger
tea w/honey helped with stomach and intestinal
discomfort.
Are you detoxing from methadone? I”m sorry if you
have already posted this, but I have the brain of a
sieve, sometimes….
love Julie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Date: January 12, 2005 at 7:38:59 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It’s on 27St, between 10th and 11th, 4th floor, above the interesting (vegitarian-ownen) nightclub Spirit.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Where is Alex Gray’s Chapel of Mirror’s? Is it close to number 9 Beeker St.? In the village? In the park? After dark? Am I asking too many questions? Can I bring firearms or donuts or maybe a freak on a leash? Are there cob webs on my face? Randy
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Date: January 12, 2005 at 7:33:49 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It’s gonna be held at Alex Gray’s Temple of Sacred Mirrors, which I HIGHLY recommend any and all to visit when in Manhattan.
It’s a beautiful and awe inspiring place.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:00 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Cures-Not-Wars is in the final stages of organizing a two-day ibogaine forum
to be held Sunday, February 20 and Monday, February 21, 2005. Just wanted to
give the list a heads up on the days. I am hoping Dana will post the
preliminary schedule and look forward to seeing as many of you as can make it.
Howard
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 0T- This messag3 Bro7ght too youj by LSD =)
Date: January 12, 2005 at 7:21:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
bendy
CRAIN E AL Kernal Pop
—>STO[p Stupid.
Shoe Shoe Retarded Flu
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Shoe Shoe Retarded Flu
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 0T- This messag3 Bro7ght too youj by LSD =)
Date: January 12, 2005 at 7:15:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else
<reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca> wrote:
If you’re reading this,
–>you are **b e a u t i f u l**.
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee
Date: January 12, 2005 at 6:40:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Donna, I sleep pretty good now. 6 or 7 hours at a time. I take power naps when I can. I highly recommend vitamins afterwards, valerian and kava too. It sounds like your provider knows what he is doing, I’m very glad of that. I can’t wait to hear what you think afterwards. Randy
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee
Date: January 12, 2005 at 5:53:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Randy
yeah my provider has told me no coffee and to start drinking water now, he also said try and get hold of some dfs for any residual withdrawals thanks for the advice i wont sweat about not sleeping the way i look at it is i have been asleep for so long on heroin if you know what i mean, how is your sleeping know?? also of people have said lie still, what about vitamins afterwards did you take any????? I really really appreciate yours and everyones advice on the list.
Donna
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee
Date: January 12, 2005 at 5:47:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Donna, one or two bits of advice here if you don’t mind. Don’t eat for at least 12 hours before the treatment and drink LOTS of water for two days before. Also don’t sweat the lack of need for sleep like I did, it passes, and it is worth it. I got real anxious about that, and really didn’t have to. It’s all about perspective. I think 2pm. in the UK is 2am. here. Somebody help me out here, if I’m wrong. I’ll send good vibes and collective conciseness your way while you are on the Holideck. I think staying busy will help a lot afterwards, just don’t push yourself to hard, and I wouldn’t drive till I really felt up to it, if I were you. I think this could be a great thing for you, and your son. Keep your chin up and enjoy the view. Randy PS lay real still if you can. You’ll see.
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:50:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Randy and Jasen
I really hope I feel like you the middle of next week, I to know ibogaine is the answer for me and I am so excited and apprehensive about sunday but watch this space!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT:- CWG
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:46:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Capt’
WOW, I can’t wait,I have all his books and read them many times over.
I met him 3 years ago and shook his hand, he really is great.
love, Jasen.
Original Message —–
From: Kirsty Sutherland
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:21 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT:- CWG
Just heard the bestus news, Neale Donald Walsche has finally given permission for Stephen Simon to do his Conversations with God books ……. Into Movies!! I haven’t read much, but what I did tells me should be worth watching.
Yay, more spiritual-type movies!!
Kirsty
—
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:42:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Thanks so much for the kind words everyone on the list has been fantastic, I am so excited but quite scared
With love donna
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:41:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Howard
Thank you for your kind words 2pm sunday uk time I am so excited and can not wait to feel clean again but i am a bit scared. I will see how i go with recovery but im not the sort of person to be down for long, Heroin has taken me away emotionally from my boy for to long so the sooner i can get back to normal the better
with love donna
From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] 0T- This messag3 Bro7ght too youj by LSD =)
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:39:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
If you’re reading this,
–>you are **b e a u t i f u l**.
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free,Weeeee
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:39:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey brother,
Good to hear your doing good Randy, I loved receiving your post.
I am fine, many things to handle, like I am being taught to handle
life’s so called problems without opiates. Hey guess what,..I am
handling it.
It sure is a personal experience, something people “not on this list”
cannot understand, especially all the revelations and connections to
the all of it.
As you know I have battled with this for many years, like yourself
and have tried for years to come of the ‘done, We took the plunge
and it really works. This treatment is second to none, to be embraced
not feared.
I am laughing so so much, it feels wonderful, I am sure you can relate.
people are like, gee,..he is laughing his head off and that joke wasn’t
even funny.
Hopefully talk to you soon.
love, Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Jasen, it’s great to read your post and know that you are OK. When I read how you feel it gives me goose bumps too, because I know how you feel. It amazes me the parallels that come up with everybody. Some of my friends didn’t know how to handle the new me either, but I have stayed the course and almost everyone excepts me now. The one thing lately that I have been thinking, (I do that sometimes), is how personal and introspective the whole experience is. I know before, if I tripped, the last thing I wanted to do is be by myself. With Ibogaine it wasn’t like that with me, I wanted to stay there with myself and experience everything that came my way. I knew it was medicine and I knew that it was going to work. I don’t know how but I knew that this was going to give me some choices that I have never had before. But when it comes down to it, Ibogaine doesn’t take life’s trials away, it just gives you a better outlook on it, we still have to make it work ourselves. Therapy, 12 step groups, Rock and Roll, Sex, everything we can think of to keep us on track, we have to follow through on. I’ll leave no stone unturned because I don’t want to go back to Hell. I don’t use, and I walk through high cotton, all the time, and it ROCKS. The universe looks great from up there doesn’t it? Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:35:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Where is Alex Gray’s Chapel of Mirror’s? Is it close to number 9 Beeker St.? In the village? In the park? After dark? Am I asking too many questions? Can I bring firearms or donuts or maybe a freak on a leash? Are there cob webs on my face? Randy
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Date: January 12, 2005 at 4:33:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yo, Howard! I’m there man!!! Just one thing…you forgot to send me my
ticket!!!
Hey, DOG luvs a trier?
Heh
Kirsty
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 January 2005 8:00 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Cures-Not-Wars is in the final stages of organizing a two-day ibogaine forum
to be held Sunday, February 20 and Monday, February 21, 2005. Just wanted
to
give the list a heads up on the days. I am hoping Dana will post the
preliminary schedule and look forward to seeing as many of you as can make
it.
Howard
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—
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
—
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Date: January 12, 2005 at 3:04:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Jan 12, 2005, at 2:33 AM, D H wrote:
Yo, yo, yo … I shallz.
Dana … yoO Hoo . werDz. Anywhere near done?
It’ll take place at Alex Grey’s Chapel of Sacred Mirrors:
Patrick,
get the webcast set up and I’ll help provide ambiance.
On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:00 PM, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Cures-Not-Wars is in the final stages of organizing a two-day ibogaine forum
to be held Sunday, February 20 and Monday, February 21, 2005. Just wanted to
give the list a heads up on the days. I am hoping Dana will post the
preliminary schedule and look forward to seeing as many of you as can make it.
Howard
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From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Date: January 12, 2005 at 2:33:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick,
get the webcast set up and I’ll help provide ambiance.
On Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:00 PM, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Cures-Not-Wars is in the final stages of organizing a two-day ibogaine forum
to be held Sunday, February 20 and Monday, February 21, 2005. Just wanted to
give the list a heads up on the days. I am hoping Dana will post the
preliminary schedule and look forward to seeing as many of you as can make it.
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] NY ibogaine alert
Date: January 12, 2005 at 2:00:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cures-Not-Wars is in the final stages of organizing a two-day ibogaine forum
to be held Sunday, February 20 and Monday, February 21, 2005. Just wanted to
give the list a heads up on the days. I am hoping Dana will post the
preliminary schedule and look forward to seeing as many of you as can make it.
Howard
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: MAPS Events / Including Jan. 12th internet audio with Albert Hofmann
Date: January 12, 2005 at 12:44:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —– From: <rick@maps.org>
To: <maps-news@maps.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: MAPS Events / Including Jan. 12th internet audio with Albert Hofmann
MAPS MEMBERS AND FRIENDS,
MAPS has major new opportunities and challenges now that the FDA has
approved the MAPS-sponsored study of the use of MDMA-assisted
psychotherapy in subjects with anxiety associated with advanced-stage
cancer, to be conducted by Dr. John Halpern, Harvard Medical School,
McLean Hospital. 2005 looks to be an incredible year.
We’re writing you now to mention three upcoming events that may be of
interest and to which all MAPS members are invited. The first is scheduled
for tomorrow (January 12) and is an internet radio broadcast with Albert
Hofmann, the Swiss chemist who created LSD and first synthesized
psilocybin, on the occasion of his 99th birthday(which is today, January
11.) The second event is scheduled for January 26 in Park City, Utah, at
the Sundance Film Festival. The third event is a MAPS-sponsored conference
in Israel on March 24, 2005.
1) MAPS-SPONSORED INTERNET AUDIO BROADCAST WITH ALBERT HOFMANN, WEDNESDAY
JANUARY 12, 2005 AT NOON EST, AND SEVERAL PSYCHEDELIC RESEARCHERS
Join us Wednesday at 12 noon EST for a live internet audio broadcast of
our celebration of Albert Hofmann’s 99th birthday as Dr. Rick Doblin,
president of MAPS and our panel of prominent scientists speak to Albert
live in Switzerland about the renewal of psychedelic research and their
work.
Present during the conference call with Dr. Hofmann will be:
Rick Doblin, Ph.D., President of MAPS.
* Dr. Michael Mithoefer, MD. Principal Investigator, MAPS sponsored MDMA PTSD study
* Dr. John Halpern, MD. (Harvard), Principal Investigator, MAPS sponsored MDMA Cancer Anxiety study
* Dr. Andrew Sewell, MD. (Harvard), Principal Investigator, MAPS sponsored LSD cluster headache study
* Dr. Charles Grob, MD (Harbor-UCLA), Principal Investigator, Heffter Institute sponsored Psilocybin Cancer Anxiety study
The MAPS conference call starts at 12 noon EST (USA). It is being
broadcast from multiple servers in mp3 format in multiple streams suitable
for broadband and 56k modem uers.
For more information, see: http://www.maps.org/conferences/ah99/
2) JANUARY 26, 2005 SUNDANCE FILM FESTIVAL: MAPS LECTURES AND PREVIEW OF THE
TRAILER FOR THE MOVIE, ENTHEOGEN: AWAKENING THE GOD WITHIN, BY CRITICAL
MASS PRODUCTIONS
The trailer for the movie, Entheogen: Awakening the God Within, produced
by Critical Mass Productions, directed by Rod Mann, which focuses in part
on MAPS-sponsored psychedelic research, will be shown at a party at the
Sundance Film Festival. Speakers at the party will include Dr. John
Halpern (MAPS’ MDMA/cancer anxiety study), Dr. Charles Grob
(Heffter-sponsored psilocybin/cancer anxiety study), and Rick Doblin,
Ph.D. The party will be held at the club Suede Wednesday evening, January
26 and all MAPS members and friends are invited to attend. If you are
considering attending, please contact Valerie Mojeiko, MAPS staff person,
at valerie@maps.org. See the listing for Jan. 26 on the MAPS conference
page at http://www.maps.org/conferences/index.html for more information
and links to the trailer.
3) MARCH 24, 2005 MAPS-SPONSORED CONFERENCE IN ISRAEL.
As part of MAPS’ efforts to sponsor a pilot study in Israel into the use
of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy in subjects with war and terrorism-related
posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), MAPS is sponsoring a one-day
conference in Israel on Thursday, March 24, 2005, in association with the
Israeli Ministry of Health, the Israeli Anti-Drug Authority, and the
Israeli Society of Addiction Medicine. MAPS is inviting all MAPS members
and friends to attend and may also organize a 6-day tour of Israel,
scheduled around the conference. If you are interested in attending, or
would like more information, please contact Valerie Mojeiko, MAPS staff
person, at valerie@maps.org.
Speakers at the conference include:
* Rick Doblin,Ph.D. President of MAPS.
* Dr. Michael Mithoefer, MD. Principal Investigator, MAPS sponsored MDMA PTSD study
* Jose Carlos Bouso, Ph.D. candidate, Principal Investigator, proposd MAPS sponsored MDMA PTSD study in Spain
* June May Ruse, Ph.D., director of MAPS’ MDMA Treatment Manual Project
* Dr. Raphael Mechoulam, Hebrew University, Marijuana/PTSD Study in Israel
* Dr. John Halpern, MD. (Harvard), Principal Investigator, MAPS sponsored MDMA Cancer Anxiety study
* Dr. Charles Grob, MD (Harbor-UCLA), Principal Investigator, Heffter Institute sponsored Psilocybin Cancer Anxiety study
* Valerie Mojeiko, MAPS’ ibogaine outcome study
best wishes for a promising new year,
Rick Doblin, Ph.D.
MAPS
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From: “Allison Senepart” <paradisepaint@callsouth.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I am free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 10:46:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My partner sleeps with an arm raised most nights. I thought it was to do with blood circulation but perhaps its a methadone side-effect as you suggest. Would be good to know more from anyone else. Allison
——-Original Message——-
From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Monday, 10 January 2005 4:39:53 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I am free
Hi Brad,
I once asked you if you ever sleep with one arm raised.
The reason I asked is that I have known several people
on Methadone as well as my brother and myself that raise
their arm when sleeping,..this was only experienced whilst
on the ‘done.
There seems to be a pattern,…I am thinking that maybe,..
it is a call for help,..like a pull me out of here type of thing.
Whilst under the Iboga experience I understood this action
as a feeling of drowning and lifting the arm to be pulled out.
Like the yin part of your soul saying to the yang part that
leaves at night,..take me with you,.I don’t like being in here
anymore.
It would be interesting to know if anyone else on the ‘done
sleeps with one arm raised, or has done.
When you replied,”that went over my head”
The reason it cracked me up was I thought to my self
if he doesn’t sleep with an arm raised sometimes,..then
my question would seem crazy,..like,”what’s this bloke
talking about?…an arm raised???
with love, Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I am free free Jasen at Sara’s
> Hi Jasen
> I have followed your journey with much interest, I am happy for you and
> your
> accomplishment. A new life!!!!!! I have spoke(on-line) briefly with Sara
> also so have been interested in your reports and experiance. I am
> contemplating making the journey off of 600+ mg Meth. for the past several
> years. As you can imagine I have received much interesting input/advice
> regarding this journey. Fortunately, qualified providers, I believe, are
> interested in helping/working with me. Sara has expressed an interest in
> exploring the idea. I have come off H many times, a variety of ways, never
> Meth. I perked-up at your comment “I got fire burning in me again” that is
> an incredibly exciting space to be, and you’ve earned it!!!
> bf
>
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.
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT:- CWG
Date: January 11, 2005 at 8:21:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Just heard the bestus news, Neale Donald Walsche has finally given permission for Stephen Simon to do his Conversations with God books ……. Into Movies!! I haven’t read much, but what I did tells me should be worth watching.
Yay, more spiritual-type movies!!
Kirsty
– No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
– No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 8:13:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ohhhhhhhhhhh
Bestus luck for you Donna!!!
I’ll be thinking of ya, jealously over here in NZ and sending warm fuzzies your way.
Wow, what a journey you are about to take!!!!!
Luff n hugz
Kirsty
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com [mailto:AbbotAngel@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 January 2005 1:38 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Randy
Due to be treated on sunday, I have read so much on ibogaine treatments and experiences, i am very excited and a bit scared, were you well enough to work after 3 days?? I can not afford to be out of action and my provider says i will be well enough to look after my son and work after 3 days its amazing as every time i have stopped using heroin in the past the withdrawals peak on the 3rd day
donna
– No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
– No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 6:08:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/11/05 7:39:33 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com writes:
<<
Due to be treated on sunday, I have read so much on ibogaine treatments and
experiences, i am very excited and a bit scared, were you well enough to work
after 3 days?? I can not afford to be out of action and my provider says i
will be well enough to look after my son and work after 3 days its amazing
as
every time i have stopped using heroin in the past the withdrawals peak on
the
3rd day >>
Hi Donna,
I can’t really provide an answer to your recovery time but, what I do
anticipate and would love to hear a report from you is how absolutely wonderful
(renewed wonder) you will most likely feel towards your child or anyone else you
care for. Let us know how it goes.
Howard
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 4:17:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
i am very excited and a bit scared, were you well enough to work after 3 days?? I can not afford to be out of action and my provider says i will be well enough to look after my son and work after 3 days its amazing as every time i have stopped using heroin in the past the withdrawals peak on the 3rd day<
I think it depends upon the individual as to whether they’re going to be up to working and watching children after JUST 3 DAYS. To me, wow, that doesn’t sound like NEARLY enough time, but as noted, it probably depends upon each individual and the amount of drugs they’re getting off of and how they react to the ibogaine itself.
Personally? Not to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but 3 days sounds like an awfully short time to go right back into the thick of things. But that’s just me. After 3 days I myself was up and about- all the way from Ave. A to 2nd Ave, on a walk up 2nd Street I took ON THE THIRD DAY, or heck maybe the fourth come to think of it, then realized that hey, that was a lot of walking and I’d better go home and take it easy for a couple more days. I think I went out to dinner the night of the fourth, STILL TRIPPING. So I myself would advise strongly having someone to help watch your child Donna. Again, this is just from my own experiences. You might be ok that first night or two, I don’t know, but again, 3 days seems like a really very short time to go right back to work and child rearing.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Hi Randy
Due to be treated on sunday, I have read so much on ibogaine treatments and experiences, i am very excited and a bit scared, were you well enough to work after 3 days?? I can not afford to be out of action and my provider says i will be well enough to look after my son and work after 3 days its amazing as every time i have stopped using heroin in the past the withdrawals peak on the 3rd day
donna
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From: Peter Haaf <peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 2:06:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi donna,
i was up he next Morning and really fit theone day after,
Peter
AbbotAngel@aol.com schrieb:
Hi Randy
Due to be treated on sunday, I have read so much on ibogaine treatments and experiences, i am very excited and a bit scared, were you well enough to work after 3 days?? I can not afford to be out of action and my provider says i will be well enough to look after my son and work after 3 days its amazing as every time i have stopped using heroin in the past the withdrawals peak on the 3rd day
donna
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 10:41:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/11/05 7:39:33 AM, AbbotAngel@aol.com writes:
<< Due to be treated on sunday, I have read so much on ibogaine treatments
and
experiences, i am very excited and a bit scared, were you well enough to work
after 3 days?? I can not afford to be out of action and my provider says i
will be well enough to look after my son and work after 3 days its amazing
as
every time i have stopped using heroin in the past the withdrawals peak on
the
3rd day >>
Some people are recovered after three days and some are not. Keep us
informed.
Howard
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 8:29:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Randy
Yes I have got support if it takes longer thank you so much for your kind words i am being treated sunday at 2pm but im in the uk i will let you know how it goes i am a bit scared but if i can feel like you and jasen afterwards it will be worth it
love donna
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 7:56:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Donna, I came off of Methadone and it lasted a lot longer than 3 days. I would think that 3 days would be pushing it a little but, everyone is different. I think I could have done more than I did but, hindsight is 20/20. Do you have anyone to help you afterwards? How old is your son? You may very well be a lot stronger than I am, I think we all do whatever we have to do to get through it. None of this is easy but Heroin creates less problems afterwards from everything I have read about it. Please tell us when your treatment starts so that I can light a candle and send positive vibes your way. I think I can speak for most of us here and say that we are all with you on this, and I’m glad that you aren’t going to do this alone. Welcome to the edge. Randy
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 7:37:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Randy
Due to be treated on sunday, I have read so much on ibogaine treatments and experiences, i am very excited and a bit scared, were you well enough to work after 3 days?? I can not afford to be out of action and my provider says i will be well enough to look after my son and work after 3 days its amazing as every time i have stopped using heroin in the past the withdrawals peak on the 3rd day
donna
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 11, 2005 at 7:32:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jasen, it’s great to read your post and know that you are OK. When I read how you feel it gives me goose bumps too, because I know how you feel. It amazes me the parallels that come up with everybody. Some of my friends didn’t know how to handle the new me either, but I have stayed the course and almost everyone excepts me now. The one thing lately that I have been thinking, (I do that sometimes), is how personal and introspective the whole experience is. I know before, if I tripped, the last thing I wanted to do is be by myself. With Ibogaine it wasn’t like that with me, I wanted to stay there with myself and experience everything that came my way. I knew it was medicine and I knew that it was going to work. I don’t know how but I knew that this was going to give me some choices that I have never had before. But when it comes down to it, Ibogaine doesn’t take life’s trials away, it just gives you a better outlook on it, we still have to make it work ourselves. Therapy, 12 step groups, Rock and Roll, Sex, everything we can think of to keep us on track, we have to follow through on. I’ll leave no stone unturned because I don’t want to go back to Hell. I don’t use, and I walk through high cotton, all the time, and it ROCKS. The universe looks great from up there doesn’t it? Randy
From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] 5th Step options…
Date: January 11, 2005 at 1:40:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://capwiz.com/norml2/dbq/officials/agencies/?id=4185&dir=norml2&command=depresult&submit.x=7&submit.y=12
Select Compose your own message And Paste 4th Step
into the message.
then…
Place Ibogaine on forehead
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4161413.stm
then…
Donate Body Here (include 4th Step with donation)
http://www.bodyworlds.co.uk/en/pages/koerperspende.asp
Then forgive yourself.
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] HCL (was: iboga experience & therapy)
Date: January 10, 2005 at 10:46:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“The second option available, using Iboga extract seems to be
the best option available yet: it has not got the drawbacks of
Ibogaine HCI, which may be very effective, but is very hard on
the body and requires a higher degree of medical skill from
those administering it.
My personal, subjective experience is that extract is harder on the
body than HCl. Also I think that HCl is safer to administer because
it is more of a known quantity. However I don’t think that the
difference is critical. I prefer extract for lower doses.
Also, people have died from the rootbark in Bwiti ceremonies.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 10, 2005 at 9:05:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jasen,
You sound so good! I’m so happy for you. And a firm
resolve never hurt anyone…
love Julie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] free
Date: January 10, 2005 at 8:53:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello Angel,
I am still reading the posts and sitting on the sidelines at the moment.
Donna,..I feel great,..my mind is so alive,..my senses are
giving me goosebumps whenever I hear or see something beautiful.
I am clean and choose to stay clean. Yes,..a thought now and again
however very shallow. Methadone and heroin are not desirable anymore
as I can clearly see the consequence,..I can look further ahead
I really can’t wait to hear your experiences. My mind is still not firing
at 100%,but clearer every day.
If you can, try to change your living enviroment before you take the
treatment. Ideally moving to another area,..or at least residence.
It is now the 7th week,..still some of the flu hanging around,..not much though.
I am sleeping 6 to 8 hours a day.Still not as active as I will be.I am down to
4 sneezes at a time.(in a row)
I am still in love with everything,..most people cannot handle it,..i find this hard
to handle. I have some good friends that love it,..they say,..your eyes are so alive
you feel so different, yet the same.I can see who everyone really is,..it is so
generating,..filling.
I look at my friend and see me,I look at the crows and see me, the flower and see me
I see the dictator and see me, the rock,the beetle it’s all me and it is so freeing,I am
the all of it, like you.
I still find it hard to work as my work needs a lot of mental energy. Studying or
reading is much easier now than before.What Lee said about your mind taking
6 months to start firing properley makes sense.
Please let me know the day you start your treatment
Life just gets brighter and brighter.
with love, Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I am free
Hi Jasen
I was thinking about you and how you are getting on, it looks like i might be having ibo treatment soon,how are you feeling??? please let me know
Love donna
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] HCL (was: iboga experience & therapy)
Date: January 10, 2005 at 6:36:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: ekki [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: 07 January 2005 10:12
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HCL (was: iboga experience & therapy)
hallo peter,
i don´t know if hcl is better. i got an email with the following info:
“The second option available, using Iboga extract seems to be the best
option available yet: it has not got the drawbacks of Ibogaine HCI,
which may be very effective, but is very hard on the body and requires
a higher degree of medical skill from those administering it. Among the
severe effects of HCI are respiratory problems, heart problems and
kidney or liver problems.
– In fact, I am presuming that all of the
recorded deaths to date occurred as a result of the administration of
HCI.
Hey Ekki,
Just to mention that I wouldn’t consider the opinion so much of someone who
makes a statement like “I am PRESUMING that all of the recorded
deaths….”[my caps]. I mean it’s great they mention it’s just a presumption
and don’t try and pass it off as established fact, but basically if someone
doesn’t even care enough to try and check out the information that is
available then that’s someone who’s opinion is not worth so much. Just my
opinion!
My knowledge is: 3-4 people have died after taking ibogaine HCl, perhaps
more; 1 person has died after taking the Indra iboga extract, perhaps more;
it’s generally held that people have died, some would say regularly, after
taking whole rootbark. My opinion is that if you’re going to take iboga or
ibogaine in any form then there is a basic risk of death. To minimize this
go for medical tests, you need liver and heart minimum.
If someone tells you that the extract or the whole rootbark or the HCL is
safe in the face of well established facts about ibogaine related deaths
then that person has a “hidden agenda” – something they don’t want to tell
you. Maybe they’re on a healer trip; maybe they hate non-medical settings;
maybe they have some pet theory about the universe that they don’t really
want to examine too closely, but whatever it is it means you can’t really
trust what they say so much.
I’m not trying to put anybody down, we’ve all got stuff we don’t want to
examine, me along with everybody else. But I don’t think you can really take
it that ibogaine is any safer in one form than the other. That’s my reading
of all the ibogaine stuff I’ve seen over the last 5 years or so.
with love
Nick www.ibogaine.co.uk
One other problem that has been mentioned by suppliers of the
basic materials for HCI production is that toxic plants can pollute the
quality of both Extract and HCI, for this reason they agree that
leaves, wood and fruit or other identifying material must be supplied
with the root, so that the source material is certifiable.
Iboga extraction has benefits that make it ideal for addiction therapy,
because the substance is an extract containing all the plant alkaloids,
and not only HCI, and it is widely presumed by those working with
medicinal plants that the combination of chemicals that make up the
plants efficacy should be extracted, not only the single purified and
identifiable chemical that we believe is solely responsible for
breaking off addiction.”
-ekki
Am 07.01.2005 um 09:58 schrieb Peter Haaf:
Hi Ekki,
bitte kein Extraakt, gebe ihr IBoHCL, welches nach allen bekannten
Studien sicherer und effektiver ist.
Wende dich an Brian aus Prag, er macht einen wunderbaren Job.
Peter
PS. Sorry List that i answered in german…..
Ekkehard Rau schrieb:
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] “you really jarred something loose tiger”/Spotless Mind Flick/My Private Ibogaine
Date: January 10, 2005 at 7:36:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Spotting her mannerisms in Spotless movie, remind me
of Erin. Lately, Been having to come to that, you
know, similar to onion Layers, before iboga before
jail before 9/11 before wake up to knock on car window
with police flashlight,
Next Layer Leads to –>best friend
betrays….obviously because I had slowly been
betraying her.
Rejection & Shame & forever stumbling Attempts to
Anticipate Rejection, new strategies over and over
again etc. <
I NEVER thought it would happen to me after going through my own break up (which films like Spotless will inevitably bring up memories of) with a girl I moved from Atlanta to Holland with back in 1991. We had the most horrible breakup I could imagine (though I’m sure most here have gone through similar heartbreak at least once at some point in time) and used it as reason to continue using prodigous amounts of mind warping, feelings killing narcotics for years afterwards. I realized that it took until the very end of the second time (I sat through Spotless four times in 24 hours- it really struck a chord in me) watching it for me to even think of Jennifer, a girl I loved so much I slit my wrists deeply when realizing I’d gone to far and said to much been to unkind…errr, (sorry all, and nods to R. Smith) and our relationship was really finished- because of my drug abuse patterns. It used to be that a film like Spotless would have me weeping in memory of Jennifer, as I haven’t any idea what happened to her, where she is and that sort of thing, and still to this day feel extremely sharp pangs of pain in my chest when I stop to think about that, that I don’t know where she is or what she’s doing or if she’s survived the intervening years. (And I can’t think of any way to track her down either, not knowing her SS number.) But like I said, it wasn’t until the second time through that I even thought of Jennifer and our breakup- all I was thinking about while watching Spotless the first time through, and most of each other time through too, was how awful it would be to ever reach that phase with V.
I am one of the very luckiest men in the entire world, what with having V in my life (knock loudly on lotsa wood please.) She is a very special person, and I never thought I’d EVER get to be with someone who could make me forget Jennifer for even a minute- but somehow I have succeeded and found just that person who could.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “knowone knowwhere” <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:33 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] “you really jarred something loose tiger”/Spotless Mind Flick/My Private Ibogaine
Repot for []\/[] [] |\| |) \/ 0 X : Sunday Jan 9th
2005 5:39 AM
Spotting her mannerisms in Spotless movie, remind me
of Erin. Lately, Been having to come to that, you
know, similar to onion Layers, before iboga before
jail before 9/11 before wake up to knock on car window
with police flashlight,
Next Layer Leads to –>best friend
betrays….obviously because I had slowly been
betraying her.
Rejection & Shame & forever stumbling Attempts to
Anticipate Rejection, new strategies over and over
again etc.
“What’s methadone” she said. ; ) She was too
trusting in the world and wouldn’t know about anything
like that. “I’ll tell you later”, I said.
I miss her. I really miss her. Or at least, I miss
“her”, weather that her is anywhere close to the
actual her is highly unlikely.
The real question is would I go through it all again
knowing what I know now. Roots of –>[ ]<–
bending Spotless. bendinG coagulation
epresectambodimyism embrmorphopam
cc®ldldlaieeek rdldlocks var vesential vor thle
paranoia therapy to take effect own re-living
dejaoi\/ukxking\/ynL widow Today window did are darky
witty minty wint entity ear ring buzz cranial saw
Taste
\/isions
Bitter Granola Blanket RED
\/\/armth, ..4 the world.
Smoldering Orlaam kick
Sleep 4 hours in 6 weeks
“Take that you freaky piece of shit!!”
Sleep 240 minutes in 6 weeks
Orlaam kick *_* “you really jarred something loose
tiger.”
4 hours 6 weeks
ON.
4 hours 6 weeks
A Hurricane for the
4 hours in 6 weeks
Sickness Super Glue
4 hours 6 weeks
Internal Gravity Crushing, but I wasn’t alone.
She stays, even when I tell her that touch fells like
a bruise, She stays.
She stayed. She should have left. And She Left, when
she should have stayed.
Pe0ple crawling up building in HCL were, in part, me
avoiding at all cost, in the case of the feelings
spotless movie brought up, it is, in part, about Erin
and the perceived verification of the inevitability of
rejection, this leads to shame, and avoiding/hiding
true self as long as possible, because if they find
true self, (shame is a belief that something is
essentially wrong with our being) they will reject.
Just a matter of time. What are the pro’s and con’s
of this way of seeing or meme or paradigm or whatever.
The nano Bugs we’re obviously everywhere, I think I’ve
already told you about the tapping the agents with the
blow up doll routine. Who’s to say that wasn’t just
bait to get us to expose our position in that point in
space time. A false sense of security is one of the
quickest methods for extracting marketable
information. In the same way that few people in
Dallas paint their bodies with a colored afro-wig in a
crowd unless they are at the Cowboy game.
I really only read non-fiction. The only two
non-fiction books in the entire Prison was a History
book from the 1960’s and an old 200 page Britannica
Essay Collection (it had a blue cover). I came across
the history book first. The main thing that stood out
to me was that while I was reading, I was living a
more comfortable life then George Washington. I had
hot water. I had hot “food”. This was essential
information because I had no money for commentary, I
had just kicked ‘done, and my multi-year xanex and
tamazepam ‘scripts got lost in the system. I knew I
was physically weak and thus a potential target, so
alliances were vital, and not letting ANY opportunity
get by and was able to squeak out without adding too
much to any harm done.
Most of the books were that Armageddon series but the
Essay Collection had some decent introductions to
ideas, especially for prison books. There is a great
Essay about guerrilla warfare, and how killing is not
for the objective of killing but killing is
essentially only a stage for information objectives.
High Pitched “Static” sound was the sound of the
microphone/bugs sensitivity being turned up, hot on
the set energy, like when you turn up the volume on a
receiver without input, the noise of “silence” that
results. Products of previous environments, random
environments influencing paths, how much influence I
wonder..
So does good always equal random or random always
equal good?? Of course not. Each Now has it’s own
particular gravitational influences due to its
placement and spacing. Random is like a trick play or
Heroin, it works Less the More it is consumed. For
example, when applying intention Random is fickle. It
is easier to banish negativity with Random then Create
Positive with Random. This seems to happen at the
beginning.
Has traditional compulsion rehabilitation used social
pressure to re-enforce an agenda, and can that
re-enforcement be abused or perhaps even contributes
to it’s own potential for abuse? If so can it be
reversed. If not is it possible or likely that it
will? Is it in the subjects interest for them to be
aware they are being hypnotized? Is all hypnosis bad?
Could we define manipulation without the existence of
non-manipulation?
Aware of the bugs, we must do something to prevent
being predictable, to stay a step ahead of
agents/”cia” ; In random chaos is a comfort that is
difficult for machines to reach, in the same way a
program designed to determine a beats per minute
number is puzzled by the sound of a Compact Disk
“skipping”.
In “skipping” is a temple without agents of control.
A womb during apocalypse.
Not to mention, I have been considering doing an mdma
deluxe session w/ a girl I’m not really that attracted
to. I think I’ve decided against it. But the idea of
it brought up yearning type energy for Erin that I
hadn’t consciously thought of in a couple of years at
least due to being so preoccupied with legal and
opioid kick shyt. I didn’t even really think about
that either, then Preston mentions the Spotless movie,
and it is like a flood gate was opened. “It” Says:
So, ok, their was like this major thing that really
affected you that you haven’t looked at yet, here’s
the last 3 years of that. <clu-plump> (sound of
dense black hole rock dropping in pool of water).
In “skipping” is a temple without agents of control.
A womb during apocalypse.
/111111
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I am free
Date: January 10, 2005 at 6:29:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Jasen
I was thinking about you and how you are getting on, it looks like i might be having ibo treatment soon,how are you feeling??? please let me know
Love donna
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I am free
Date: January 10, 2005 at 12:32:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jasen, I used to do that sometimes. ‘Course I thought I was just nodding, come to think of it I was nodding all the time, or so it seemed, but I always had some kind of con going and took at least twice my prescribed dose most of the time. Randy
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] I am free
Date: January 9, 2005 at 10:39:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Brad,
I once asked you if you ever sleep with one arm raised.
The reason I asked is that I have known several people
on Methadone as well as my brother and myself that raise
their arm when sleeping,..this was only experienced whilst
on the ‘done.
There seems to be a pattern,…I am thinking that maybe,..
it is a call for help,..like a pull me out of here type of thing.
Whilst under the Iboga experience I understood this action
as a feeling of drowning and lifting the arm to be pulled out.
Like the yin part of your soul saying to the yang part that
leaves at night,..take me with you,.I don’t like being in here
anymore.
It would be interesting to know if anyone else on the ‘done
sleeps with one arm raised, or has done.
When you replied,”that went over my head”
The reason it cracked me up was I thought to my self
if he doesn’t sleep with an arm raised sometimes,..then
my question would seem crazy,..like,”what’s this bloke
talking about?…an arm raised???
with love, Jasen.
—– Original Message —– From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] I am free free Jasen at Sara’s
Hi Jasen
I have followed your journey with much interest, I am happy for you and your
accomplishment. A new life!!!!!! I have spoke(on-line) briefly with Sara
also so have been interested in your reports and experiance. I am
contemplating making the journey off of 600+ mg Meth. for the past several
years. As you can imagine I have received much interesting input/advice
regarding this journey. Fortunately, qualified providers, I believe, are
interested in helping/working with me. Sara has expressed an interest in
exploring the idea. I have come off H many times, a variety of ways, never
Meth. I perked-up at your comment “I got fire burning in me again” that is
an incredibly exciting space to be, and you’ve earned it!!!
bf
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] low budget 5-MeO-DMT snuff T33N XXX!@#
Date: January 9, 2005 at 10:30:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Are you for real????????????????????????????????????????????????
—–Original Message—–
From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com [mailto:nruhtra@dsskcorp.com]
Sent: Monday, 10 January 2005 1:21 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] low budget 5-MeO-DMT snuff T33N XXX!@#
right-o
i see in subject lines alot about !b0 and films and people comparing shiz
and shat. i havent had a chance to read any of them yet. but just for a
big fucking FYI – there is a DMT snuff film in existance. no shit.
its right here. www.dsskcorp.com/after-birtherday.wmv
i am actually (sadly) in this movie. im the kid wearin the einsturzende
neubauten shirt (who recieves the DMT via EYEternet)
it was done by an indie film making troupe called “the stain resistant
aids quilt theater” who are responsible for the critically acclaimed?
short film entitled: the centipede rape video (dont bother)
i have washed my hands of this and _other_ films associated with these
psychotic fucking people. ok maybe not.
n.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
—
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
—
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 – Release Date: 01/06/2005
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From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] low budget 5-MeO-DMT snuff T33N XXX!@#
Date: January 9, 2005 at 7:20:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
right-o
i see in subject lines alot about !b0 and films and people comparing shiz
and shat. i havent had a chance to read any of them yet. but just for a
big fucking FYI – there is a DMT snuff film in existance. no shit.
its right here. www.dsskcorp.com/after-birtherday.wmv
i am actually (sadly) in this movie. im the kid wearin the einsturzende
neubauten shirt (who recieves the DMT via EYEternet)
it was done by an indie film making troupe called “the stain resistant
aids quilt theater” who are responsible for the critically acclaimed?
short film entitled: the centipede rape video (dont bother)
i have washed my hands of this and _other_ films associated with these
psychotic fucking people. ok maybe not.
n.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] “you really jarred something loose tiger”/Spotless Mind Flick/My Private Ibogaine
Date: January 9, 2005 at 6:33:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Repot for []\/[] [] |\| |) \/ 0 X : Sunday Jan 9th
2005 5:39 AM
Spotting her mannerisms in Spotless movie, remind me
of Erin. Lately, Been having to come to that, you
know, similar to onion Layers, before iboga before
jail before 9/11 before wake up to knock on car window
with police flashlight,
Next Layer Leads to –>best friend
betrays
..obviously because I had slowly been
betraying her.
Rejection & Shame & forever stumbling Attempts to
Anticipate Rejection, new strategies over and over
again etc
Whats methadone she said. ; ) She was too
trusting in the world and wouldnt know about anything
like that. Ill tell you later, I said.
I miss her. I really miss her. Or at least, I miss
her, weather that her is anywhere close to the
actual her is highly unlikely.
The real question is would I go through it all again
knowing what I know now. Roots of –>[ ]<–
bending Spotless
bendinG coagulation
epresectambodimyism embrmorphopam
cc®ldldlaieeek rdldlocks var vesential vor thle
paranoia therapy to take effect own re-living
dejaoi\/ukxking\/ynL widow Today window did are darky
witty minty wint entity ear ring buzz cranial saw
Taste
\/isions
Bitter Granola Blanket RED
\/\/armth,
.4 the world.
Smoldering Orlaam kick
Sleep 4 hours in 6 weeks
Take that you freaky piece of shit!!
Sleep 240 minutes in 6 weeks
Orlaam kick *_* you really jarred something loose
tiger.
4 hours 6 weeks
ON.
4 hours 6 weeks
A Hurricane for the
4 hours in 6 weeks
Sickness Super Glue
4 hours 6 weeks
Internal Gravity Crushing, but I wasnt alone
She stays, even when I tell her that touch fells like
a bruise, She stays.
She stayed. She should have left. And She Left, when
she should have stayed.
Pe0ple crawling up building in HCL were, in part, me
avoiding at all cost, in the case of the feelings
spotless movie brought up, it is, in part, about Erin
and the perceived verification of the inevitability of
rejection, this leads to shame, and avoiding/hiding
true self as long as possible, because if they find
true self, (shame is a belief that something is
essentially wrong with our being) they will reject.
Just a matter of time. What are the pros and cons
of this way of seeing or meme or paradigm or whatever.
The nano Bugs were obviously everywhere, I think Ive
already told you about the tapping the agents with the
blow up doll routine. Whos to say that wasnt just
bait to get us to expose our position in that point in
space time. A false sense of security is one of the
quickest methods for extracting marketable
information. In the same way that few people in
Dallas paint their bodies with a colored afro-wig in a
crowd unless they are at the Cowboy game.
I really only read non-fiction. The only two
non-fiction books in the entire Prison was a History
book from the 1960s and an old 200 page Britannica
Essay Collection (it had a blue cover). I came across
the history book first. The main thing that stood out
to me was that while I was reading, I was living a
more comfortable life then George Washington. I had
hot water. I had hot food. This was essential
information because I had no money for commentary, I
had just kicked done, and my multi-year xanex and
tamazepam scripts got lost in the system. I knew I
was physically weak and thus a potential target, so
alliances were vital, and not letting ANY opportunity
get by and was able to squeak out without adding too
much to any harm done.
Most of the books were that Armageddon series but the
Essay Collection had some decent introductions to
ideas, especially for prison books. There is a great
Essay about guerrilla warfare, and how killing is not
for the objective of killing but killing is
essentially only a stage for information objectives.
High Pitched Static sound was the sound of the
microphone/bugs sensitivity being turned up, hot on
the set energy, like when you turn up the volume on a
receiver without input, the noise of silence that
results. Products of previous environments, random
environments influencing paths, how much influence I
wonder
.
So does good always equal random or random always
equal good?? Of course not. Each Now has its own
particular gravitational influences due to its
placement and spacing. Random is like a trick play or
Heroin, it works Less the More it is consumed. For
example, when applying intention Random is fickle. It
is easier to banish negativity with Random then Create
Positive with Random. This seems to happen at the
beginning.
Has traditional compulsion rehabilitation used social
pressure to re-enforce an agenda, and can that
re-enforcement be abused or perhaps even contributes
to its own potential for abuse? If so can it be
reversed. If not is it possible or likely that it
will? Is it in the subjects interest for them to be
aware they are being hypnotized? Is all hypnosis bad?
Could we define manipulation without the existence of
non-manipulation?
Aware of the bugs, we must do something to prevent
being predictable, to stay a step ahead of
agents/cia ; In random chaos is a comfort that is
difficult for machines to reach, in the same way a
program designed to determine a beats per minute
number is puzzled by the sound of a Compact Disk
skipping.
In skipping is a temple without agents of control.
A womb during apocalypse.
Not to mention, I have been considering doing an mdma
deluxe session w/ a girl Im not really that attracted
to. I think Ive decided against it. But the idea of
it brought up yearning type energy for Erin that I
hadnt consciously thought of in a couple of years at
least due to being so preoccupied with legal and
opioid kick shyt. I didnt even really think about
that either, then Preston mentions the Spotless movie,
and it is like a flood gate was opened. It Says:
So, ok, their was like this major thing that really
affected you that you havent looked at yet, heres
the last 3 years of that. <clu-plump> (sound of
dense black hole rock dropping in pool of water).
In skipping is a temple without agents of control.
A womb during apocalypse.
/111111
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 9, 2005 at 11:59:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all
I was just looking at sources that supply ibogaine could you tell me the difference between hydro and root bark????????
donna
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Testes
Date: January 9, 2005 at 10:22:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Testes left right Testes left right
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract- Slowone
Date: January 8, 2005 at 3:26:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Julie,
It was powdered rootbark, light greenish-brown in colour, and I
think I swallowed something like 15-20 grams.
For what it’s worth, my powdered rootbark was brown. Has anyone
else encountered greenish-brown rootbark, and if so, how strong was
it?
I notice that Maya’s current rootbark offering looks darkish-brown
on the web, and claims 3-6% alkaloid content – possibly a different
source or batch.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
http://www.hushmail.com/about-affiliate?l=427
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From: “boaz wachtel” <wachtel@shani.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 8, 2005 at 3:02:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hello ekki
I would advise against treating your ex with the extract since you have no
idea of the alkaloid content and u can’t tell how much is enough. The fact
that she is thin, female and the fact that she would have H in her system
are all not good starting points. Ibogaine potentiates the analgesic effect
of H. So that’s why this is dangerous. Also, you do not up to date EKG and
liver count. Another matter is that even if you check her Blood pressure and
pulse you have no experience with what is a normal range under the influence
of Iboga and what is not. The range also differs from one individual to
another and and between genders. you must establish a base line couple of
hours before the treatment over a period of few hours.
I suggest you rethink the treatment until you finalize all the checks, find
a good source for the HCL (so you know exactly how much you are giving her),
do a first dose first and wait 2-3 hours to see how she is and don’t go
above 10mg/kg.
I understand your desire to help her, but taking care of a her safety is the
first priority and the outcome of the treatment is secondary.
boaz wachtel
—–Original Message—–
From: Ekkehard Rau [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 2:19 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
hello everybody!
i was on this list a while ago, was off for a year and are back now.
here´s my story:
i became a daily user of h nearly 4 years ago.
since two years my life has been a circle of withdrawals and relapses.
in october i was in the black forest (i live in south-west germany at
the moment) when i ran out of dope. after two days i had to call a
doctor and he send me to a lokal hospital. it was ridiculous: i got so
much methadon, haldol, valium, tramadol and some pills that i felt
higher than when i was still on h and downers. after 5 days i was
released, not detoxed at all. i spend about 6 weeks with not much
sleep. i drank lots of vodka and layed in bed most of the time.
occasionally i would take some valium, tramadol or fentanyl.
on friday, december the 10th, i took about 25 grams of rootbark extract
all by myself. (my provider emailed that 15g should be maximum.) it
really blew me away. after 8 hours i took more extract, maybe 10g. i
flushed the rest (i had 50g) down the toilet since i feared to od on
ibo. i was in a nice dreamy state until saturday noon. then i felt
terrible. on tuesday(12/14/04) i od´ed on speedballs, probably because
my system was already fairly clean and i still had the iboga in my
body. i stopped breathing, my lips turned blue, my heartbeat was 190
and bloodpressure 60 to 88, i learned later. luckily someone was around
to call an ambulance. they pumped me with oxygen and i came back to
consciousness at the emergency station of a hospital. the next day i
gave a lecture at university about william burroughs (funny
coincidence). i drank heavily until sunday the 18th. i awoke on monday
morning the 19th, badly shaking, and knew it was all over. i really
woke up. no craving any more. no drinking or drugs necessary since
then. i felt the big, enormous, radiating and rotating sun i saw on
iboga shining all inside and outside of me.
the next couple of days i started to digest my iboga experience. i saw
very sad and dead lifeless fields and landscapes that filled me with
grief and compassion. i think those are the realms of my addiction.
then lots of demons where welcoming me with scornful laughter. for a
while every thought i had was spoken by changing characters that i saw
standing before me. i seemed to leave my_self, also my body. i cannot
remember everything that happened afterwards. there were ancient
tribes,plants and flowers, mutating grimaces, a smiling girl. most
impressive was the sun.
while this experience can be seen as something coming out of the
(un)conscious to be interpreted as a bunch of symbols, i also felt like
entering another world that exists independent of myself, still i seem
to be related to it.
being a psychedelic oldtimer of berlin techno scene in the 90s i
already made some synaptic journeys, but iboga is really something
else.
what wonders me is that it needed 10 days to free me. then i also
stopped smoking without any effort or will-power.
while there is a lot of i in this text i feel quite unpersonal these
days, a state i know from times of 3 or 4 weeks of intense
zen-meditation. the iboga gave me the desire to practice zen again, it
also sparkled an interest in shamanism. i recently met a mexican indian
initiated into a peyote cult. i told him my experience and he gave very
good and helpful remarks like he knows about those other worlds.
i plan to try iboga on my ex. she is shooting up lots of c&h and ran
out of veins. also she is very small and thin and has hep c, but not
acute. we became junkies together.
i want to give her a dose large enough, so that she can cope with
withdrawal and has a strong experience, on the other hand i fear she
might collapse since she is in bad shape. the plan is that she leaves
the scene in berlin a few days before and stays some days at her
mothers place in munich, where dope is much more expensive, so she will
reduce her habit there a bit and get good food and some rest. then she
will come to my place, use up her leftovers, wait for withdrawal to set
in and then start with the rootbark extract. i have taken a course in
first aid 2 years ago and i will have a oxygen mask as well as phone
numbers of emergency medical doctors. i read everything on ibogatherapy
i found in the net. she was in hospital in nov to detox where they
didn´t report anything wrong with her heart or liver, but i don´t have
an actual EKG or blood values. there is no open scene for drugs where i
life (at least not in winter), so she won´t be able to cop easily the
first days after the session. she is planing some aftercare program
like travelling to italy and afrika.
do you guys think bwiti-music and incense can be of help? are there any
other measures of caution to be taken?
i´ll be greatful for any comments.
-ekki
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract- Slowone
Date: January 8, 2005 at 2:37:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Slowone,
It was powdered rootbark, light greenish-brown in colour, and I think I swallowed something like 15-20 grams. I felt a little dizzy, nauseous, and had this weird burning sensation in my gut the whole time. After 7 hours of waiting, I finally just stuck my finger down my throat and got rid of it. I should also mention that I treated myself, which may have had something to do with the outcome. Interestingly enough, I had no problems getting to sleep that night, all things considered.
I find your descriptions/recipes of extracting your own Ibogaine extract very interesting. I would like to do a follow up session in the next couple of months, but can’t afford an additional treatment. I was considering the Indra extract, but have heard several stories of how it doesn’t work, and thus chickened out. Maybe I’ll give it another try…Especially if that is the product Sara uses- I have heard so many glowing, positive reviews. If I could afford it, I would head to Sara’s place straightforward.
thanks for all the info, slowone,
Julie
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 8, 2005 at 2:23:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Julie,
I bought it online from Maya Ethnobotanicals.
Did you get root, or root bark? It sounds like it may have been
root, which would have a very low percentage of alkaloids overall.
Perhaps, like Howard said, it was inactive. All I
know, is that after having to swallow something like
60 gel capsules of that crap, it was a relief to
swallow only 4-5 of the HCL. The HCL came on within
20-30 minutes, while the other stuff NEVER seemed to
come on; it just made my stomach burn.
As far as I can remember, Indra took 45 minutes or so and my own
extract took an hour or two.
I have never tried the Indra version, as I was advised
that it is getting quite old. I would be interested
in trying it, but only if there is some form of
quality control…
There have been mixed reports. The maker of indra, Carl, has said
that the original whole batch was homogeneous, and has suggested
that the negative reports may be based on samples that were not
stored properly, e.g. they may have been exposed to light. I
believe this was disputed by Marko, based on lab analysis of a few
samples showing variable alkaloid content. I can vouch for 40g that
I got directly from Indra in Copenhagen, and Sara has used indra
that I believe she got directly from Carl extensively.
How did you make your own extract?
Soaked powdered root bark in vodka with lemon juice for a couple of
weeks, shaking once or twice a day. Strained the liquid, evaporated
off the alcohol at low heat. Drank the black liquid. (It was very
strong and also burned my stomach considerably. I vomited soon
after it began to come on, and the experience immediately subsided.
Estimated 36 mg/kg.) Soaked the root bark a second time for a year
without much shaking, this time evaporated down to a black tar. The
low dose that resulted (estimated 5 mg/kg) was one of my most
productive iboga experiences.
My conclusion is that one should experiment with the extract before
launching into a full experience. I would assume 8% alkaloids
(maximal content) and try for 5 mg/kg. Wait 2 hours before deciding
whether to take more, or if possible wait a few days and start
over, to see if there are any interesting subliminal effects.
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 8, 2005 at 11:01:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Slowone,
I bought it online from Maya Ethnobotanicals.
Perhaps, like Howard said, it was inactive. All I
know, is that after having to swallow something like
60 gel capsules of that crap, it was a relief to
swallow only 4-5 of the HCL. The HCL came on within
20-30 minutes, while the other stuff NEVER seemed to
come on; it just made my stomach burn.
I have never tried the Indra version, as I was advised
that it is getting quite old. I would be interested
in trying it, but only if there is some form of
quality control…
How did you make your own extract?
Julie
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From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: January 8, 2005 at 10:49:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
There is some kind of “sick” comfort in knowing someone else been through the Naltreaxone withdrawals then trying desperately to get high/well before the Naltreaxone has wore off…..
bf
—–Original Message—–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:18 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Patrick, you are most definitely a commando. You took Naltrexone 3 times on purpose? I did it once and I thought I would die. 3 times? The overriding theme of this thread is everyone wanted to be clean no matter what. Aint che glad that we have Ibogaine and we don’t have to do that anymore. I mean, it aint perfect but it beats the hell out of a sharp stick in the eye or going through withdrawals with Naltrexone both of which would have to suck badly to go through again. I did it in a hospital in Erie. They used the Naltrexone pills to bring on the withdrawals faster and gave me phenobarb and serax to fight the discomfort. Not enough of them even though I was seeing double the whole time. Then they would come and fuck with me and make me go to an AA meeting while I was whacked out like that. In pajama’s nodding out at an AA meeting. JOY!!! I got high as soon as the Naltrexone wore off. I tried to sooner. God what a nightmare. Randy
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 8, 2005 at 4:43:08 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That is why I think that each person who relapses should
Give a treatment another go and not give up if the first time
Didn’t work out. You learn from experience and look what can be done
To make it work better next treatment, if you have a treatment provider
You better counsel him/her about what went wrong first time and what can be
done next, and if you listen to their advise you probably gain more out of
the whole experience.
Some people feel better with one product and others with another and that
always be that way.
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: slowone@hush.ai [mailto:slowone@hush.ai]
Verzonden: zaterdag 8 januari 2005 3:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
I have used both the extract and the HCL, and in my
experience the HCL was WAY WAY more effective. The
extract did absolutely nothing, and I had to ingest so
much it was ridiculous.
Julie, which extract was this again? My experience with both the
indra extract and my own homemade extract was that with the broader
range of alkaloids in an extract, the experience is longer-lasting
for a given level of intensity, plus there was more effect on
movement and vision.
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo Article
Date: January 8, 2005 at 4:21:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Howard, thanx for the info. I kind of figured that, but I would rather know for sure before I tell someone something that would give them the wrong impression. I will attest to the fact that perspective is needed about the sleep interruption after Ibogaine. Lord knows I needed some after my experience. Randy
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 7, 2005 at 9:25:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have used both the extract and the HCL, and in my
experience the HCL was WAY WAY more effective. The
extract did absolutely nothing, and I had to ingest so
much it was ridiculous.
Julie, which extract was this again? My experience with both the
indra extract and my own homemade extract was that with the broader
range of alkaloids in an extract, the experience is longer-lasting
for a given level of intensity, plus there was more effect on
movement and vision.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
secure FREE email: http://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
http://www.hushmail.com/services-messenger?l=434
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo Article
Date: January 7, 2005 at 9:13:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/7/05 8:33:46 PM, BiscuitBoy714@aol.com writes:
Yep Dave, that sounds like somebody did an Ibogaine treatment. It sounds
so
beautiful, I want to do it again. I think we all see some of the same stuff.
Maybe in a different way, but the theme is always the same. Can you tell
me
something? When a person does Ibogaine and he/she is not addicted anymore,
do the
sleep problems occur in the same way? Future reference if you know what
I
mean. Randy
I have too few examples to draw conclusions but, elimination for sleep is
seen in both dependent and non dependent individuals after ibogaine. The
difference may be in interpretation where the dependent individual classifies lack of
ability to sleep as a sign of withdrawal and a problem while the non
dependent individual, based on age and health, may view it only as a lack of need for
sleep and, not a problem. In many cases problems are what we make of them.
And of course I am as guilty as anyone.
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 7, 2005 at 9:08:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/7/05 5:45:47 PM, ms_iboga@yahoo.com writes:
Also,
If the nor ibogaine is so effective in stopping the
craving then why from
my personal experience and others
people relapsed right after using HCL, where is the
working of the nor
ibogaine then? The glow didn’t come, how comes? Even
when it was HCl spent
12,000 dollars for a treatment relapsed right after.
Sara,
I have used both the extract and the HCL, and in my
experience the HCL was WAY WAY more effective. The
extract did absolutely nothing, and I had to ingest so
much it was ridiculous. After 7-8 hours of waiting
for the extract to kick in, I finally made myself sick
to get the burning, queasy, nauseous sensation out of
my stomach. HCL is, in my opinion, smoother, more
reliable and more effective. I have not relapsed, and
it’s been 3 months since I was treated with HCL. I
only paid $1000.
Julie
Hi Julie,
Just a few comments. 1) Unless you were able to test the extract you had it i
s possible that the extract you had was inactive. 2) As for noribogaine I am
uncertain if it is a long acting metabolite or not. I mean it is an
interesting claim but, Glick’s theory that ibogaine is sequestered in fat and released
over time is more likely. When the liver coverts ibogaine to noribogaine,
the noribogaine levels are somewhat higher than the ibogaine levels and may be
detected for some time longer than ibogaine would be but, that is not because
it is longer lasting. Unpublished results have found that noribogaine was
rapidly eliminated and as it is water soluble, unlike ibogaine it is not
sequestered in fat. No one has published data indicating noribogaine is long lasting,
only that when ibogaine is administered, nor is detected in some persons for
longer periods than ibogaine and that is explained by Glick’s theory of
ibogaine being sequestered in fat. Don’t you think it strange that no research has
been published showing noribogaine to be administered and to be long lasting?
Most likely the best results are achieved by the natural combination of
ibogaine and metabolized noribogaine concurrently. Sara may be getting better
results with her extract because it may come from more reliable sources. Even in
the regulated drug industry periodically batches of poor quality goods make it
to market.
One cannot argue with a quality product and one cannot demean enough a poor
quality product. Reliable sources are always important.
I think it all comes to the quality of the product and the quality of the
care that is given and the time that is provided to such care and the repetition
of dosing as may be needed. My bet is that there is good HCl and good extract
as well as, poor examples of each. And, then there are individual and diverse
responses that are normal to medicine as well as completely atypical
responses to any drug.
Howard
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibo Article
Date: January 7, 2005 at 8:32:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yep Dave, that sounds like somebody did an Ibogaine treatment. It sounds so beautiful, I want to do it again. I think we all see some of the same stuff. Maybe in a different way, but the theme is always the same. Can you tell me something? When a person does Ibogaine and he/she is not addicted anymore, do the sleep problems occur in the same way? Future reference if you know what I mean. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: January 7, 2005 at 8:18:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick, you are most definitely a commando. You took Naltrexone 3 times on purpose? I did it once and I thought I would die. 3 times? The overriding theme of this thread is everyone wanted to be clean no matter what. Aint che glad that we have Ibogaine and we don’t have to do that anymore. I mean, it aint perfect but it beats the hell out of a sharp stick in the eye or going through withdrawals with Naltrexone both of which would have to suck badly to go through again. I did it in a hospital in Erie. They used the Naltrexone pills to bring on the withdrawals faster and gave me phenobarb and serax to fight the discomfort. Not enough of them even though I was seeing double the whole time. Then they would come and fuck with me and make me go to an AA meeting while I was whacked out like that. In pajama’s nodding out at an AA meeting. JOY!!! I got high as soon as the Naltrexone wore off. I tried to sooner. God what a nightmare. Randy
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 7, 2005 at 6:28:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have to admit to feeling a bit confused about the whole
ibogaine thing. I felt wonderful and KNEW it was going to fade
and many have made their various suggestions, and yet, here I
am, right back near pretty freakin much where I started…
Preston, did you ever go for any aftercare? I remember you were
kind of avoiding or postponing it early on.
One of the hardest things I have dealt with from my ibogaine
experiences has been the shock of having discovered that I am
damaged. It took a long time to get used to this, 6 to 20 months
depending on how you count it, and in the end it was a church
(serving ayahuasca) that gave me hope again.
Anyway, especially to folks who feel elated after ibogaine, I
strongly recommend cultivating some form of therapeutic attachment
if you don’t already have one.
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From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 5:22:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Am 07.01.2005 um 11:26 schrieb AbbotAngel@aol.com:
Ekki
God you were so lucky, im glad everything turned out ok for you. Do you think it wise to do this to your girlfriend, I say this because I wanted to self administer and everyone who has taken ibo advised against it, but you did it and you are clean!! One guy did self administer and it did not work, In your oppinion would you say it would be ok to self adminiter??? I hope all goes well with your girlfriend and well done im so jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Donna
hello donna
thank you for your kind words.
obviously my self-administration was not responsible or save.
the opinions of other people on this list, who have more experience, may be more profund than mine.
also no one wants to be blamed if anything goes wrong with you.
first read all info on the www in case you haven´t jet. then there should be someone around to look after you, provide herbal tea or whatever, empty the vomit in the bukett and make sure you don´t fall on the floor when using the toilet. your heart must be ok, on ibo mine was pumping like a 4tothefloor bassdrum. you should increase the amount you take very slowly and stop when you are tripping or at least got rid of withdrawal symtoms.
i ate the extract spoonwise with tea until after two hours i started to puke and couldn´t take anymore. it felt like my body decided that it was enough and i was already tripping. when i took more later on i felt i was loosing control so i did throw the rest away. the ibo was hard on body and mind, but i didn´t want it to stop.
make sure there are no drugs around and don´t cop the next 7 or 10 days, even when you think the ibo hasn´t worked. it might kill you like it nearly killed me.
i´m still exited about the ibo and feel stable and energetic, but its only 24 days without drugs,19 without booze and 16 without cigarettes. the whole breaking of addictions was a present i was granted and not an achievement. i feel i have to make use of it and consolidate my new cleanness, because there will be other times and new problems one day.
i got rid of my flat in berlin, since my habit was closly related to this city, and i won´t visit for say 3 years. i go for healthy veg. food, physical exercises, getting busy at university, meditation, walking around in the woods, making music, meeting new people that are not junkies etc.
about the girl: if we get her family to pay for a professional treatment, then she will do it. if not, then i will very carefully administer it at my place.
-ekki
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 7, 2005 at 3:18:50 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Julie that is very good, and I’m very happy for you.
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 18:04
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Also,
If the nor ibogaine is so effective in stopping the
craving then why from
my personal experience and others
people relapsed right after using HCL, where is the
working of the nor
ibogaine then? The glow didn’t come, how comes? Even
when it was HCl spent
12,000 dollars for a treatment relapsed right after.
Sara,
I have used both the extract and the HCL, and in my
experience the HCL was WAY WAY more effective. The
extract did absolutely nothing, and I had to ingest so
much it was ridiculous. After 7-8 hours of waiting
for the extract to kick in, I finally made myself sick
to get the burning, queasy, nauseous sensation out of
my stomach. HCL is, in my opinion, smoother, more
reliable and more effective. I have not relapsed, and
it’s been 3 months since I was treated with HCL. I
only paid $1000.
Julie
__________________________________
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From: D H <dave@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibo Article
Date: January 7, 2005 at 2:54:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
One Pill Makes You Better
By Vince Beiser, Sacramento News & Review. Posted January 6, 2005.
Drug and alcohol addicts are crossing the border to try an addiction treatment called ibogaine, a powerful hallucinogen that is banned in the US.
The first thing was a loud buzzing in his ears, as though a swarm of bees was swirling around his head. Then the hallucinations kicked in. The patterns in the blanket tacked to the ceiling above him glowed vibrantly and then began transforming into the faces of members of his family, faces that turned themselves inside-out and back again. He saw his father finding him dead with a needle in his arm. He saw himself in a beautiful field of flowers. He saw Jesus standing outside the Earth, creating different races of men and placing them on different continents…
http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/20913/
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] the black box
Date: January 7, 2005 at 1:22:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick et al…
Digital@phantom.com wrote
All that being said, I still have nuthin’ negative to say >>about
Resnick… He didn’t preach at me; didn’t go out of his >>way to try to
make me feel like a piece of shit. He was just … trying >>to help.
The fact he didn’t have too much to work with, is more a >>reflection on
the “state of the art” in opiate/opioid treatment, when you >>remove
ibogaine from the picture.
Yes i hope I didnt sound like i was dissin’ Dr Resnick as he was a very kind and helpful guy when i needed him badly..Even when i went back to him, or his therapist woman i should say ,(she was in his office townhouse as well) and i was using though denying it ,he put up with it until finally after a few visits he said if you are clean let me hit you with this shot of naltrexan…. i figured he wouldnt waste it on me so said sure and only as the needle was about to plunge through my opiated skin did i cop to my strung out-ness again and still they were kind and non judgemental .I suggested i go on Bupe in a week or so and he agreed but told me not use for the day before we start which i knew and understood BUT even then i fucked myself as i went to him high (stupid junkie!) and took it then of course went into wd’s fairly quickly as i sat in central park where he sent me to wait a bit when i returned he took one look at me and asked why i did that… he seemed more concerned than pissed and i split to get well (quick!!)never to return. i did get a note from him six months later (most likely with a bill for outstanding fee from the bupe) asking how i was-I was quite strung out and didnt answer ….
All in all he seemed a caring guy doing all he could in this screwed up system …
It takes a while… Hang in there. If you need a tune-up, >>then
fuckin’ go for it. And congratulations on making it >>through a party
weekend without pickin’ up dOpe when it’s right in your >>face. That can
be really hard. You should try to remember That Moment
yes That Moment looking back it wasnt as hard decision as i would have thought( maybe because i was tripping my face off ??)
I have been through so much i dont think i could do it all over again i almost feel like any dabbling would be either a life or death sentence… a lifetime of opiate use most likely back on the dreaded meth or bupe…or a death sentence of a final heavy run which i cant handle….
as far as a TUnE uP yes i very much think that is in order
Thanks again for everything this list does, to you and all on it
FF
Jeff
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] the black box
Date: January 7, 2005 at 12:37:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Jan 7, 2005, at 10:54 AM, Jeffgd1@aol.com wrote:
hey Patrick or anyone else
Resnick had me try the black box. He was the only Dr here in the states with it back in 94ish andit was a joke. Despite it’s ineffectiveness He did help me through a quick strictly dope detox and for that i can only be grateful ….of course i picked up again as soon as the authorities were off my back.
Black Box didn’t do dick
Hey Jeff, I can relate.
he was also doing bupe treatments….they lined up at the door like the lower east side…hmmm
That was always surreal. Uhm, I go where? “Just step down, to the side of the townhouse, you’re calling me (@ 3AM, a Holiday, the Weekend, 8PM), walk down the stairs. Call me again when you’re on the block. Have your cash ready. Stick your hand through the grate, and I’ll drop the materials in your hand.”
Hum … I can’t QUITE PLACE IT … but this scenario seems strangely familiar and fillZ me with a strong sense of Deja Vu.
All that being said, I still have nuthin’ negative to say about Resnick… He didn’t preach at me; didn’t go out of his way to try to make me feel like a piece of shit. He was just … trying to help. The fact he didn’t have too much to work with, is more a reflection on the “state of the art” in opiate/opioid treatment, when you remove ibogaine from the picture.
“Okay! We attach leeches to the patient until the Evil Spirits leave!!@#!!!”
Erm, yeah, okay. Doesn’t seem to be working.
Patrick your writing about it takinga full 6 months to get the brain firing correctly again is the most realistic thing i have read it aint no 6-8 week deal at least for this 45 year old head
It takes a while… Hang in there. If you need a tune-up, then fuckin’ go for it. And congratulations on making it through a party weekend without pickin’ up dOpe when it’s right in your face. That can be really hard. You should try to remember That Moment.
“Hum. Well. Ya know. I *DO* have control and I *AM* making choices again. It’s been a while!”
Rock ouT do0d & CongratulationS!
Patrick
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From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: January 7, 2005 at 12:27:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Jan 7, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Brad Fisher wrote:
I wanted very badly to have the Dr., who at the time was head of the Pain
Mgmt. Dept. at the hospital where the procedure was done, to have to go thru
what I had just gone thru!!!!!! He would walk into my room with this
(shit-eatin) grin on his face and ask if I was ready to go home???? They
were planning to send me home the same afternoon of the procedure, telling
me I would be hungry for dinner. They did kick me out the next day, I spent
the next 5-6 days in my room at home in bed. My wife told me later that my
youngest daughter, 11-12 at the time, said to her one day” Dad’s dying isn’t
he!” The room they used in the hospital was on the top floor at one end, as
far from other patients as possible. I should have understood then.
bf
Yeah … complete summary of UROD: Welcome to Clockwork Orange. You are there. ‘Cept, you’ve got so much self-hate and desperation going that you are actually paying someone to do this to you…
I was stupid enough to try it twice. Obviously, it’s my fault. And … ya know, partially it was. No, it doesn’t “work” worth a shit. Neither did the next 3 times when I tried the home version of UROD (naltrexone, handful of Xanax + clonidine).
Patrick
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy- HCL vs. extract
Date: January 7, 2005 at 12:04:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Also,
If the nor ibogaine is so effective in stopping the
craving then why from
my personal experience and others
people relapsed right after using HCL, where is the
working of the nor
ibogaine then? The glow didn’t come, how comes? Even
when it was HCl spent
12,000 dollars for a treatment relapsed right after.
Sara,
I have used both the extract and the HCL, and in my
experience the HCL was WAY WAY more effective. The
extract did absolutely nothing, and I had to ingest so
much it was ridiculous. After 7-8 hours of waiting
for the extract to kick in, I finally made myself sick
to get the burning, queasy, nauseous sensation out of
my stomach. HCL is, in my opinion, smoother, more
reliable and more effective. I have not relapsed, and
it’s been 3 months since I was treated with HCL. I
only paid $1000.
Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 11:10:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/7/05 1:15:59 AM, sara119@xs4all.nl writes:
<< You provider is crazy.
And you don’t need to over do it.
It isn’t so that the more you take the better.
If your girl will die from intoxication of Iboga,
Then it will most probably become illegal in your country.
Your provider doesn’t care he will move to another country
But you be stuck with hard feelings.
Did your provider try to take 15 gram by himself?
Or is he just a kid who like to make some money? >>
One of the questions that might be asked is what is the potency of this
particular extract? But, your warnings of fatal reactions must be taken seriously.
Howard
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From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] the black box
Date: January 7, 2005 at 10:54:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hey Patrick or anyone else
Resnick had me try the black box. He was the only Dr here in the states with it back in 94ish andit was a joke. Despite it’s ineffectiveness He did help me through a quick strictly dope detox and for that i can only be grateful ….of course i picked up again as soon as the authorities were off my back.
Black Box didn’t do dick
he was also doing bupe treatments….they lined up at the door like the lower east side…hmmm
as for me the nor ibo is absofuckinglutly gone but i am still somewhat okay…went through a wild partying week while our favorite band was here in town for a few gigs ending their run at Radio city for nye…i was offered oxy’s and other yummy temptations but no takers on that it was strictly a psychedelic ride for this boy but the boredom of being out of work is killing me almost to the point i want to watch TV again oh no!!
i am gong back to work on Monday so hopefully….
I kind of am thinking a small dose of ibo is in order,mmmmmmm
Patrick your writing about it takinga full 6 months to get the brain firing correctly again is the most realistic thing i have read it aint no 6-8 week deal at least for this 45 year old head
and Dana hope all went greatthis morning at the hearings you rock again….
Freaking Freely not out still
Jeff
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From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: January 7, 2005 at 10:15:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I wanted very badly to have the Dr., who at the time was head of the Pain
Mgmt. Dept. at the hospital where the procedure was done, to have to go thru
what I had just gone thru!!!!!! He would walk into my room with this
(shit-eatin) grin on his face and ask if I was ready to go home???? They
were planning to send me home the same afternoon of the procedure, telling
me I would be hungry for dinner. They did kick me out the next day, I spent
the next 5-6 days in my room at home in bed. My wife told me later that my
youngest daughter, 11-12 at the time, said to her one day” Dad’s dying isn’t
he!” The room they used in the hospital was on the top floor at one end, as
far from other patients as possible. I should have understood then.
bf
—–Original Message—–
From: Vector Vector [mailto:vector620022002@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 4:15 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Patrick, wake up! 🙂 You’ve been in wired 10 times, I think their UROD
article deserves a rebuttal!
You’ve had UROD two or three times, you’re the ibogaine poster child,
you’ve been featured in Wired with MindVox mad times.
Do something!
.:vector:.
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:59:18 -0500
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:17:21PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.” Lance Gooberman, I mean.
| Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
|
| Dana/cnw
Gooberman is a total and absolute fuckhead. Resnick and Gooberman
are
—
or were — the two main detox doctors in the NYC area roughly 5 years
back. Resnick is, well, whatever. He’s okay. He may or may not
take
various actions that are highly questionable in terms of how he
dispenses
“medication,” which is entirely between him and whomever is
attempting
to
prosecute him; but he’s an okay person and NOT totally full of shit.
Lance invented the whole entire assembly-line UROD conveyor belt
paradigm;
junkie in one end –> UROD –> <presto!> You are CURED! spin
control,
and
plastered huge billboards all over sugar hill, spanish harlem, and
Hunt’s
Point advertising his shit. While Andre Waismann invented UROD,
Lance
is
the one who made it highly popular, very profitable, and totally
sleazy.
Most of his former clients have expressed the general wish that it’d
be
karmically correct to get Lance strung out, and then repeatedly detox
him
using his own methodology.
I can’t find any fault with that line of reasoning.
Patrick
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 7:30:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
Sara, you are beautiful. Randy
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 7:22:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sara, you are beautiful. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 7:17:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sara, I think you have to be ready for it no matter what. I wanted to be clean, so I looked for the glow. After I freaked our for a while, do you remember? Kinda’ like you have to look for God to see him/her too. But it is real. I felt it. I guess if someone wants to ignore that feeling and get high anyway that is on them. You all have me wanting to try the extract to see the difference for myself. I see a new quest brewing. O yea, thanx again for your help when I was freaking after the no sleep thing kicked in post Ibogaine. Randy
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 6:53:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Peter,
Yes, I understand that study.
Look, even when you use pharma product you can’t be sure that you
Have enough ibogaine using the traditional methode of mg? per Kg?
Some will say I didn’t get enough and some too much and it would be just the
same amount of mg/ per kg, that is the nature of humanity.
And that’s why a Doctor will ask you to come back after few days or weeks
To check that the medication works in the amount it was advised by the
pharma, Your local doctor is also working with “tuning”, after coming back
to the check up he may find that a patient needs a higher or a lower dose of
the same, or a totally another product.
That’s also how I work with both HCL or extract or Root bark.
I work with safe dosages , asking the patient if they feel they had enough,
Some will say yes I feel fine and some will say I still feel withdrawals.
That what I call “tuning”.
So really I think that a good treatment is done when a person leaves with a
smile, when they can roll their on joint ;).
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Peter Haaf [mailto:peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 11:07
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Hi Sara,
i just read the long term study from the Amsterdam Uni. The median of
people beeing clean
is much higher after the HCl treatment, do not ask me why.
And just an other thought: how do you know how much ibogaine you will
provide using the extract ?
And what about all the other alkaloids ? Well in my opinion (beeing very
influenced from my father, who
udes to be a chemist in the pharma industrie) it is allways a good idea
to take a controlled substance
rather than something undefined ….. Us drugies took enough shit in our
lives, but that is a different story.
Peter
Sara Glatt schrieb:
In the research no one looked at the quality of the treatment setting and
the amount of Iboga given to the patient while in treatment., will power
and
life experience is not taking in account, which I think is the major thing
in the whole treatment.
Also,
If the nor ibogaine is so effective in stopping the craving then why from
my personal experience and others
people relapsed right after using HCL, where is the working of the nor
ibogaine then? The glow didn’t come, how comes? Even when it was HCl spent
12,000 dollars for a treatment relapsed right after.
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Peter Haaf [mailto:peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 9:59
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Hi Ekki,
bitte kein Extraakt, gebe ihr IBoHCL, welches nach allen bekannten
Studien sicherer und effektiver ist.
Wende dich an Brian aus Prag, er macht einen wunderbaren Job.
Peter
PS. Sorry List that i answered in german…..
Ekkehard Rau schrieb:
hallo sara
thanks for your answer.
actually i think its my own fault to have taken that much, but i
guess i had to play on edges and the dose was right for me. my
provider emphasized to be very careful.
i was happy to get this extract for a fair price, since i tried some
other rookbark 1 1/2 years ago which gave me only stomach problems,
nothing else.
do you think 15g are already to much for a grown up male of 80kg?
maybe different extracts have different strengh.
i will be more careful on the girl. to get a professional iboga
treatment instead is a financial problem. also she prefers to do it
with me.
how do you find out how much you give your clients?
-ekki
Am 07.01.2005 um 07:08 schrieb Sara Glatt:
You provider is crazy.
And you don’t need to over do it.
It isn’t so that the more you take the better.
If your girl will die from intoxication of Iboga,
Then it will most probably become illegal in your country.
Your provider doesn’t care he will move to another country
But you be stuck with hard feelings.
Did your provider try to take 15 gram by himself?
Or is he just a kid who like to make some money?
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ekkehard Rau [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 1:19
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
hello everybody!
i was on this list a while ago, was off for a year and are back now.
here´s my story:
i became a daily user of h nearly 4 years ago.
since two years my life has been a circle of withdrawals and relapses.
in october i was in the black forest (i live in south-west germany at
the moment) when i ran out of dope. after two days i had to call a
doctor and he send me to a lokal hospital. it was ridiculous: i got so
much methadon, haldol, valium, tramadol and some pills that i felt
higher than when i was still on h and downers. after 5 days i was
released, not detoxed at all. i spend about 6 weeks with not much
sleep. i drank lots of vodka and layed in bed most of the time.
occasionally i would take some valium, tramadol or fentanyl.
on friday, december the 10th, i took about 25 grams of rootbark extract
all by myself. (my provider emailed that 15g should be maximum.) it
really blew me away. after 8 hours i took more extract, maybe 10g. i
flushed the rest (i had 50g) down the toilet since i feared to od on
ibo. i was in a nice dreamy state until saturday noon. then i felt
terrible. on tuesday(12/14/04) i od´ed on speedballs, probably because
my system was already fairly clean and i still had the iboga in my
body. i stopped breathing, my lips turned blue, my heartbeat was 190
and bloodpressure 60 to 88, i learned later. luckily someone was around
to call an ambulance. they pumped me with oxygen and i came back to
consciousness at the emergency station of a hospital. the next day i
gave a lecture at university about william burroughs (funny
coincidence). i drank heavily until sunday the 18th. i awoke on monday
morning the 19th, badly shaking, and knew it was all over. i really
woke up. no craving any more. no drinking or drugs necessary since
then. i felt the big, enormous, radiating and rotating sun i saw on
iboga shining all inside and outside of me.
the next couple of days i started to digest my iboga experience. i
saw
very sad and dead lifeless fields and landscapes that filled me with
grief and compassion. i think those are the realms of my addiction.
then lots of demons where welcoming me with scornful laughter. for a
while every thought i had was spoken by changing characters that i saw
standing before me. i seemed to leave my_self, also my body. i cannot
remember everything that happened afterwards. there were ancient
tribes,plants and flowers, mutating grimaces, a smiling girl. most
impressive was the sun.
while this experience can be seen as something coming out of the
(un)conscious to be interpreted as a bunch of symbols, i also felt like
entering another world that exists independent of myself, still i seem
to be related to it.
being a psychedelic oldtimer of berlin techno scene in the 90s i
already made some synaptic journeys, but iboga is really something
else.
what wonders me is that it needed 10 days to free me. then i also
stopped smoking without any effort or will-power.
while there is a lot of i in this text i feel quite unpersonal these
days, a state i know from times of 3 or 4 weeks of intense
zen-meditation. the iboga gave me the desire to practice zen again, it
also sparkled an interest in shamanism. i recently met a mexican indian
initiated into a peyote cult. i told him my experience and he gave very
good and helpful remarks like he knows about those other worlds.
i plan to try iboga on my ex. she is shooting up lots of c&h and ran
out of veins. also she is very small and thin and has hep c, but not
acute. we became junkies together.
i want to give her a dose large enough, so that she can cope with
withdrawal and has a strong experience, on the other hand i fear she
might collapse since she is in bad shape. the plan is that she leaves
the scene in berlin a few days before and stays some days at her
mothers place in munich, where dope is much more expensive, so she will
reduce her habit there a bit and get good food and some rest. then she
will come to my place, use up her leftovers, wait for withdrawal to set
in and then start with the rootbark extract. i have taken a course in
first aid 2 years ago and i will have a oxygen mask as well as phone
numbers of emergency medical doctors. i read everything on ibogatherapy
i found in the net. she was in hospital in nov to detox where they
didn´t report anything wrong with her heart or liver, but i don´t have
an actual EKG or blood values. there is no open scene for drugs where i
life (at least not in winter), so she won´t be able to cop easily the
first days after the session. she is planing some aftercare program
like travelling to italy and afrika.
do you guys think bwiti-music and incense can be of help? are there any
other measures of caution to be taken?
i´ll be greatful for any comments.
-ekki
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 5:26:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ekki
God you were so lucky, im glad everything turned out ok for you. Do you think it wise to do this to your girlfriend, I say this because I wanted to self administer and everyone who has taken ibo advised against it, but you did it and you are clean!! One guy did self administer and it did not work, In your oppinion would you say it would be ok to self adminiter??? I hope all goes well with your girlfriend and well done im so jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Donna
From: ekki <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] HCL (was: iboga experience & therapy)
Date: January 7, 2005 at 5:11:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hallo peter,
i don´t know if hcl is better. i got an email with the following info:
“The second option available, using Iboga extract seems to be the best option available yet: it has not got the drawbacks of Ibogaine HCI, which may be very effective, but is very hard on the body and requires a higher degree of medical skill from those administering it. Among the severe effects of HCI are respiratory problems, heart problems and kidney or liver problems. In fact, I am presuming that all of the recorded deaths to date occurred as a result of the administration of HCI. One other problem that has been mentioned by suppliers of the basic materials for HCI production is that toxic plants can pollute the quality of both Extract and HCI, for this reason they agree that leaves, wood and fruit or other identifying material must be supplied with the root, so that the source material is certifiable.
Iboga extraction has benefits that make it ideal for addiction therapy, because the substance is an extract containing all the plant alkaloids, and not only HCI, and it is widely presumed by those working with medicinal plants that the combination of chemicals that make up the plants efficacy should be extracted, not only the single purified and identifiable chemical that we believe is solely responsible for breaking off addiction.”
-ekki
Am 07.01.2005 um 09:58 schrieb Peter Haaf:
Hi Ekki,
bitte kein Extraakt, gebe ihr IBoHCL, welches nach allen bekannten Studien sicherer und effektiver ist.
Wende dich an Brian aus Prag, er macht einen wunderbaren Job.
Peter
PS. Sorry List that i answered in german…..
Ekkehard Rau schrieb:
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From: Peter Haaf <peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 5:06:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Sara,
i just read the long term study from the Amsterdam Uni. The median of people beeing clean
is much higher after the HCl treatment, do not ask me why.
And just an other thought: how do you know how much ibogaine you will provide using the extract ?
And what about all the other alkaloids ? Well in my opinion (beeing very influenced from my father, who
udes to be a chemist in the pharma industrie) it is allways a good idea to take a controlled substance
rather than something undefined ….. Us drugies took enough shit in our lives, but that is a different story.
Peter
Sara Glatt schrieb:
In the research no one looked at the quality of the treatment setting and
the amount of Iboga given to the patient while in treatment., will power and
life experience is not taking in account, which I think is the major thing
in the whole treatment.
Also,
If the nor ibogaine is so effective in stopping the craving then why from
my personal experience and others
people relapsed right after using HCL, where is the working of the nor
ibogaine then? The glow didn’t come, how comes? Even when it was HCl spent
12,000 dollars for a treatment relapsed right after.
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Peter Haaf [mailto:peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de] Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 9:59
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Hi Ekki,
bitte kein Extraakt, gebe ihr IBoHCL, welches nach allen bekannten Studien sicherer und effektiver ist.
Wende dich an Brian aus Prag, er macht einen wunderbaren Job.
Peter
PS. Sorry List that i answered in german…..
Ekkehard Rau schrieb:
hallo sara
thanks for your answer.
actually i think its my own fault to have taken that much, but i guess i had to play on edges and the dose was right for me. my provider emphasized to be very careful.
i was happy to get this extract for a fair price, since i tried some other rookbark 1 1/2 years ago which gave me only stomach problems, nothing else.
do you think 15g are already to much for a grown up male of 80kg? maybe different extracts have different strengh.
i will be more careful on the girl. to get a professional iboga treatment instead is a financial problem. also she prefers to do it with me.
how do you find out how much you give your clients?
-ekki
Am 07.01.2005 um 07:08 schrieb Sara Glatt:
You provider is crazy.
And you don’t need to over do it.
It isn’t so that the more you take the better.
If your girl will die from intoxication of Iboga,
Then it will most probably become illegal in your country.
Your provider doesn’t care he will move to another country
But you be stuck with hard feelings.
Did your provider try to take 15 gram by himself?
Or is he just a kid who like to make some money?
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ekkehard Rau [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 1:19
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
hello everybody!
i was on this list a while ago, was off for a year and are back now.
here´s my story:
i became a daily user of h nearly 4 years ago.
since two years my life has been a circle of withdrawals and relapses.
in october i was in the black forest (i live in south-west germany at
the moment) when i ran out of dope. after two days i had to call a
doctor and he send me to a lokal hospital. it was ridiculous: i got so
much methadon, haldol, valium, tramadol and some pills that i felt
higher than when i was still on h and downers. after 5 days i was
released, not detoxed at all. i spend about 6 weeks with not much
sleep. i drank lots of vodka and layed in bed most of the time.
occasionally i would take some valium, tramadol or fentanyl.
on friday, december the 10th, i took about 25 grams of rootbark extract
all by myself. (my provider emailed that 15g should be maximum.) it
really blew me away. after 8 hours i took more extract, maybe 10g. i
flushed the rest (i had 50g) down the toilet since i feared to od on
ibo. i was in a nice dreamy state until saturday noon. then i felt
terrible. on tuesday(12/14/04) i od´ed on speedballs, probably because
my system was already fairly clean and i still had the iboga in my
body. i stopped breathing, my lips turned blue, my heartbeat was 190
and bloodpressure 60 to 88, i learned later. luckily someone was around
to call an ambulance. they pumped me with oxygen and i came back to
consciousness at the emergency station of a hospital. the next day i
gave a lecture at university about william burroughs (funny
coincidence). i drank heavily until sunday the 18th. i awoke on monday
morning the 19th, badly shaking, and knew it was all over. i really
woke up. no craving any more. no drinking or drugs necessary since
then. i felt the big, enormous, radiating and rotating sun i saw on
iboga shining all inside and outside of me.
the next couple of days i started to digest my iboga experience. i saw
very sad and dead lifeless fields and landscapes that filled me with
grief and compassion. i think those are the realms of my addiction.
then lots of demons where welcoming me with scornful laughter. for a
while every thought i had was spoken by changing characters that i saw
standing before me. i seemed to leave my_self, also my body. i cannot
remember everything that happened afterwards. there were ancient
tribes,plants and flowers, mutating grimaces, a smiling girl. most
impressive was the sun.
while this experience can be seen as something coming out of the
(un)conscious to be interpreted as a bunch of symbols, i also felt like
entering another world that exists independent of myself, still i seem
to be related to it.
being a psychedelic oldtimer of berlin techno scene in the 90s i
already made some synaptic journeys, but iboga is really something
else.
what wonders me is that it needed 10 days to free me. then i also
stopped smoking without any effort or will-power.
while there is a lot of i in this text i feel quite unpersonal these
days, a state i know from times of 3 or 4 weeks of intense
zen-meditation. the iboga gave me the desire to practice zen again, it
also sparkled an interest in shamanism. i recently met a mexican indian
initiated into a peyote cult. i told him my experience and he gave very
good and helpful remarks like he knows about those other worlds.
i plan to try iboga on my ex. she is shooting up lots of c&h and ran
out of veins. also she is very small and thin and has hep c, but not
acute. we became junkies together.
i want to give her a dose large enough, so that she can cope with
withdrawal and has a strong experience, on the other hand i fear she
might collapse since she is in bad shape. the plan is that she leaves
the scene in berlin a few days before and stays some days at her
mothers place in munich, where dope is much more expensive, so she will
reduce her habit there a bit and get good food and some rest. then she
will come to my place, use up her leftovers, wait for withdrawal to set
in and then start with the rootbark extract. i have taken a course in
first aid 2 years ago and i will have a oxygen mask as well as phone
numbers of emergency medical doctors. i read everything on ibogatherapy
i found in the net. she was in hospital in nov to detox where they
didn´t report anything wrong with her heart or liver, but i don´t have
an actual EKG or blood values. there is no open scene for drugs where i
life (at least not in winter), so she won´t be able to cop easily the
first days after the session. she is planing some aftercare program
like travelling to italy and afrika.
do you guys think bwiti-music and incense can be of help? are there any
other measures of caution to be taken?
i´ll be greatful for any comments.
-ekki
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 4:38:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In the research no one looked at the quality of the treatment setting and
the amount of Iboga given to the patient while in treatment., will power and
life experience is not taking in account, which I think is the major thing
in the whole treatment.
Also,
If the nor ibogaine is so effective in stopping the craving then why from
my personal experience and others
people relapsed right after using HCL, where is the working of the nor
ibogaine then? The glow didn’t come, how comes? Even when it was HCl spent
12,000 dollars for a treatment relapsed right after.
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Peter Haaf [mailto:peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 9:59
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Hi Ekki,
bitte kein Extraakt, gebe ihr IBoHCL, welches nach allen bekannten
Studien sicherer und effektiver ist.
Wende dich an Brian aus Prag, er macht einen wunderbaren Job.
Peter
PS. Sorry List that i answered in german…..
Ekkehard Rau schrieb:
hallo sara
thanks for your answer.
actually i think its my own fault to have taken that much, but i
guess i had to play on edges and the dose was right for me. my
provider emphasized to be very careful.
i was happy to get this extract for a fair price, since i tried some
other rookbark 1 1/2 years ago which gave me only stomach problems,
nothing else.
do you think 15g are already to much for a grown up male of 80kg?
maybe different extracts have different strengh.
i will be more careful on the girl. to get a professional iboga
treatment instead is a financial problem. also she prefers to do it
with me.
how do you find out how much you give your clients?
-ekki
Am 07.01.2005 um 07:08 schrieb Sara Glatt:
You provider is crazy.
And you don’t need to over do it.
It isn’t so that the more you take the better.
If your girl will die from intoxication of Iboga,
Then it will most probably become illegal in your country.
Your provider doesn’t care he will move to another country
But you be stuck with hard feelings.
Did your provider try to take 15 gram by himself?
Or is he just a kid who like to make some money?
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ekkehard Rau [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 1:19
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
hello everybody!
i was on this list a while ago, was off for a year and are back now.
here´s my story:
i became a daily user of h nearly 4 years ago.
since two years my life has been a circle of withdrawals and relapses.
in october i was in the black forest (i live in south-west germany at
the moment) when i ran out of dope. after two days i had to call a
doctor and he send me to a lokal hospital. it was ridiculous: i got so
much methadon, haldol, valium, tramadol and some pills that i felt
higher than when i was still on h and downers. after 5 days i was
released, not detoxed at all. i spend about 6 weeks with not much
sleep. i drank lots of vodka and layed in bed most of the time.
occasionally i would take some valium, tramadol or fentanyl.
on friday, december the 10th, i took about 25 grams of rootbark extract
all by myself. (my provider emailed that 15g should be maximum.) it
really blew me away. after 8 hours i took more extract, maybe 10g. i
flushed the rest (i had 50g) down the toilet since i feared to od on
ibo. i was in a nice dreamy state until saturday noon. then i felt
terrible. on tuesday(12/14/04) i od´ed on speedballs, probably because
my system was already fairly clean and i still had the iboga in my
body. i stopped breathing, my lips turned blue, my heartbeat was 190
and bloodpressure 60 to 88, i learned later. luckily someone was around
to call an ambulance. they pumped me with oxygen and i came back to
consciousness at the emergency station of a hospital. the next day i
gave a lecture at university about william burroughs (funny
coincidence). i drank heavily until sunday the 18th. i awoke on monday
morning the 19th, badly shaking, and knew it was all over. i really
woke up. no craving any more. no drinking or drugs necessary since
then. i felt the big, enormous, radiating and rotating sun i saw on
iboga shining all inside and outside of me.
the next couple of days i started to digest my iboga experience. i
saw
very sad and dead lifeless fields and landscapes that filled me with
grief and compassion. i think those are the realms of my addiction.
then lots of demons where welcoming me with scornful laughter. for a
while every thought i had was spoken by changing characters that i saw
standing before me. i seemed to leave my_self, also my body. i cannot
remember everything that happened afterwards. there were ancient
tribes,plants and flowers, mutating grimaces, a smiling girl. most
impressive was the sun.
while this experience can be seen as something coming out of the
(un)conscious to be interpreted as a bunch of symbols, i also felt like
entering another world that exists independent of myself, still i seem
to be related to it.
being a psychedelic oldtimer of berlin techno scene in the 90s i
already made some synaptic journeys, but iboga is really something
else.
what wonders me is that it needed 10 days to free me. then i also
stopped smoking without any effort or will-power.
while there is a lot of i in this text i feel quite unpersonal these
days, a state i know from times of 3 or 4 weeks of intense
zen-meditation. the iboga gave me the desire to practice zen again, it
also sparkled an interest in shamanism. i recently met a mexican indian
initiated into a peyote cult. i told him my experience and he gave very
good and helpful remarks like he knows about those other worlds.
i plan to try iboga on my ex. she is shooting up lots of c&h and ran
out of veins. also she is very small and thin and has hep c, but not
acute. we became junkies together.
i want to give her a dose large enough, so that she can cope with
withdrawal and has a strong experience, on the other hand i fear she
might collapse since she is in bad shape. the plan is that she leaves
the scene in berlin a few days before and stays some days at her
mothers place in munich, where dope is much more expensive, so she will
reduce her habit there a bit and get good food and some rest. then she
will come to my place, use up her leftovers, wait for withdrawal to set
in and then start with the rootbark extract. i have taken a course in
first aid 2 years ago and i will have a oxygen mask as well as phone
numbers of emergency medical doctors. i read everything on ibogatherapy
i found in the net. she was in hospital in nov to detox where they
didn´t report anything wrong with her heart or liver, but i don´t have
an actual EKG or blood values. there is no open scene for drugs where i
life (at least not in winter), so she won´t be able to cop easily the
first days after the session. she is planing some aftercare program
like travelling to italy and afrika.
do you guys think bwiti-music and incense can be of help? are there any
other measures of caution to be taken?
i´ll be greatful for any comments.
-ekki
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From: Peter Haaf <peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 3:58:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Ekki,
bitte kein Extraakt, gebe ihr IBoHCL, welches nach allen bekannten Studien sicherer und effektiver ist.
Wende dich an Brian aus Prag, er macht einen wunderbaren Job.
Peter
PS. Sorry List that i answered in german…..
Ekkehard Rau schrieb:
hallo sara
thanks for your answer.
actually i think its my own fault to have taken that much, but i guess i had to play on edges and the dose was right for me. my provider emphasized to be very careful.
i was happy to get this extract for a fair price, since i tried some other rookbark 1 1/2 years ago which gave me only stomach problems, nothing else.
do you think 15g are already to much for a grown up male of 80kg? maybe different extracts have different strengh.
i will be more careful on the girl. to get a professional iboga treatment instead is a financial problem. also she prefers to do it with me.
how do you find out how much you give your clients?
-ekki
Am 07.01.2005 um 07:08 schrieb Sara Glatt:
You provider is crazy.
And you don’t need to over do it.
It isn’t so that the more you take the better.
If your girl will die from intoxication of Iboga,
Then it will most probably become illegal in your country.
Your provider doesn’t care he will move to another country
But you be stuck with hard feelings.
Did your provider try to take 15 gram by himself?
Or is he just a kid who like to make some money?
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ekkehard Rau [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 1:19
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
hello everybody!
i was on this list a while ago, was off for a year and are back now.
here´s my story:
i became a daily user of h nearly 4 years ago.
since two years my life has been a circle of withdrawals and relapses.
in october i was in the black forest (i live in south-west germany at
the moment) when i ran out of dope. after two days i had to call a
doctor and he send me to a lokal hospital. it was ridiculous: i got so
much methadon, haldol, valium, tramadol and some pills that i felt
higher than when i was still on h and downers. after 5 days i was
released, not detoxed at all. i spend about 6 weeks with not much
sleep. i drank lots of vodka and layed in bed most of the time.
occasionally i would take some valium, tramadol or fentanyl.
on friday, december the 10th, i took about 25 grams of rootbark extract
all by myself. (my provider emailed that 15g should be maximum.) it
really blew me away. after 8 hours i took more extract, maybe 10g. i
flushed the rest (i had 50g) down the toilet since i feared to od on
ibo. i was in a nice dreamy state until saturday noon. then i felt
terrible. on tuesday(12/14/04) i od´ed on speedballs, probably because
my system was already fairly clean and i still had the iboga in my
body. i stopped breathing, my lips turned blue, my heartbeat was 190
and bloodpressure 60 to 88, i learned later. luckily someone was around
to call an ambulance. they pumped me with oxygen and i came back to
consciousness at the emergency station of a hospital. the next day i
gave a lecture at university about william burroughs (funny
coincidence). i drank heavily until sunday the 18th. i awoke on monday
morning the 19th, badly shaking, and knew it was all over. i really
woke up. no craving any more. no drinking or drugs necessary since
then. i felt the big, enormous, radiating and rotating sun i saw on
iboga shining all inside and outside of me.
the next couple of days i started to digest my iboga experience. i saw
very sad and dead lifeless fields and landscapes that filled me with
grief and compassion. i think those are the realms of my addiction.
then lots of demons where welcoming me with scornful laughter. for a
while every thought i had was spoken by changing characters that i saw
standing before me. i seemed to leave my_self, also my body. i cannot
remember everything that happened afterwards. there were ancient
tribes,plants and flowers, mutating grimaces, a smiling girl. most
impressive was the sun.
while this experience can be seen as something coming out of the
(un)conscious to be interpreted as a bunch of symbols, i also felt like
entering another world that exists independent of myself, still i seem
to be related to it.
being a psychedelic oldtimer of berlin techno scene in the 90s i
already made some synaptic journeys, but iboga is really something
else.
what wonders me is that it needed 10 days to free me. then i also
stopped smoking without any effort or will-power.
while there is a lot of i in this text i feel quite unpersonal these
days, a state i know from times of 3 or 4 weeks of intense
zen-meditation. the iboga gave me the desire to practice zen again, it
also sparkled an interest in shamanism. i recently met a mexican indian
initiated into a peyote cult. i told him my experience and he gave very
good and helpful remarks like he knows about those other worlds.
i plan to try iboga on my ex. she is shooting up lots of c&h and ran
out of veins. also she is very small and thin and has hep c, but not
acute. we became junkies together.
i want to give her a dose large enough, so that she can cope with
withdrawal and has a strong experience, on the other hand i fear she
might collapse since she is in bad shape. the plan is that she leaves
the scene in berlin a few days before and stays some days at her
mothers place in munich, where dope is much more expensive, so she will
reduce her habit there a bit and get good food and some rest. then she
will come to my place, use up her leftovers, wait for withdrawal to set
in and then start with the rootbark extract. i have taken a course in
first aid 2 years ago and i will have a oxygen mask as well as phone
numbers of emergency medical doctors. i read everything on ibogatherapy
i found in the net. she was in hospital in nov to detox where they
didn´t report anything wrong with her heart or liver, but i don´t have
an actual EKG or blood values. there is no open scene for drugs where i
life (at least not in winter), so she won´t be able to cop easily the
first days after the session. she is planing some aftercare program
like travelling to italy and afrika.
do you guys think bwiti-music and incense can be of help? are there any
other measures of caution to be taken?
i´ll be greatful for any comments.
-ekki
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From: Ekkehard Rau <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 2:57:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hallo sara
thanks for your answer.
actually i think its my own fault to have taken that much, but i guess i had to play on edges and the dose was right for me. my provider emphasized to be very careful.
i was happy to get this extract for a fair price, since i tried some other rookbark 1 1/2 years ago which gave me only stomach problems, nothing else.
do you think 15g are already to much for a grown up male of 80kg? maybe different extracts have different strengh.
i will be more careful on the girl. to get a professional iboga treatment instead is a financial problem. also she prefers to do it with me.
how do you find out how much you give your clients?
-ekki
Am 07.01.2005 um 07:08 schrieb Sara Glatt:
You provider is crazy.
And you don’t need to over do it.
It isn’t so that the more you take the better.
If your girl will die from intoxication of Iboga,
Then it will most probably become illegal in your country.
Your provider doesn’t care he will move to another country
But you be stuck with hard feelings.
Did your provider try to take 15 gram by himself?
Or is he just a kid who like to make some money?
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ekkehard Rau [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 1:19
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
hello everybody!
i was on this list a while ago, was off for a year and are back now.
here´s my story:
i became a daily user of h nearly 4 years ago.
since two years my life has been a circle of withdrawals and relapses.
in october i was in the black forest (i live in south-west germany at
the moment) when i ran out of dope. after two days i had to call a
doctor and he send me to a lokal hospital. it was ridiculous: i got so
much methadon, haldol, valium, tramadol and some pills that i felt
higher than when i was still on h and downers. after 5 days i was
released, not detoxed at all. i spend about 6 weeks with not much
sleep. i drank lots of vodka and layed in bed most of the time.
occasionally i would take some valium, tramadol or fentanyl.
on friday, december the 10th, i took about 25 grams of rootbark extract
all by myself. (my provider emailed that 15g should be maximum.) it
really blew me away. after 8 hours i took more extract, maybe 10g. i
flushed the rest (i had 50g) down the toilet since i feared to od on
ibo. i was in a nice dreamy state until saturday noon. then i felt
terrible. on tuesday(12/14/04) i od´ed on speedballs, probably because
my system was already fairly clean and i still had the iboga in my
body. i stopped breathing, my lips turned blue, my heartbeat was 190
and bloodpressure 60 to 88, i learned later. luckily someone was around
to call an ambulance. they pumped me with oxygen and i came back to
consciousness at the emergency station of a hospital. the next day i
gave a lecture at university about william burroughs (funny
coincidence). i drank heavily until sunday the 18th. i awoke on monday
morning the 19th, badly shaking, and knew it was all over. i really
woke up. no craving any more. no drinking or drugs necessary since
then. i felt the big, enormous, radiating and rotating sun i saw on
iboga shining all inside and outside of me.
the next couple of days i started to digest my iboga experience. i saw
very sad and dead lifeless fields and landscapes that filled me with
grief and compassion. i think those are the realms of my addiction.
then lots of demons where welcoming me with scornful laughter. for a
while every thought i had was spoken by changing characters that i saw
standing before me. i seemed to leave my_self, also my body. i cannot
remember everything that happened afterwards. there were ancient
tribes,plants and flowers, mutating grimaces, a smiling girl. most
impressive was the sun.
while this experience can be seen as something coming out of the
(un)conscious to be interpreted as a bunch of symbols, i also felt like
entering another world that exists independent of myself, still i seem
to be related to it.
being a psychedelic oldtimer of berlin techno scene in the 90s i
already made some synaptic journeys, but iboga is really something
else.
what wonders me is that it needed 10 days to free me. then i also
stopped smoking without any effort or will-power.
while there is a lot of i in this text i feel quite unpersonal these
days, a state i know from times of 3 or 4 weeks of intense
zen-meditation. the iboga gave me the desire to practice zen again, it
also sparkled an interest in shamanism. i recently met a mexican indian
initiated into a peyote cult. i told him my experience and he gave very
good and helpful remarks like he knows about those other worlds.
i plan to try iboga on my ex. she is shooting up lots of c&h and ran
out of veins. also she is very small and thin and has hep c, but not
acute. we became junkies together.
i want to give her a dose large enough, so that she can cope with
withdrawal and has a strong experience, on the other hand i fear she
might collapse since she is in bad shape. the plan is that she leaves
the scene in berlin a few days before and stays some days at her
mothers place in munich, where dope is much more expensive, so she will
reduce her habit there a bit and get good food and some rest. then she
will come to my place, use up her leftovers, wait for withdrawal to set
in and then start with the rootbark extract. i have taken a course in
first aid 2 years ago and i will have a oxygen mask as well as phone
numbers of emergency medical doctors. i read everything on ibogatherapy
i found in the net. she was in hospital in nov to detox where they
didn´t report anything wrong with her heart or liver, but i don´t have
an actual EKG or blood values. there is no open scene for drugs where i
life (at least not in winter), so she won´t be able to cop easily the
first days after the session. she is planing some aftercare program
like travelling to italy and afrika.
do you guys think bwiti-music and incense can be of help? are there any
other measures of caution to be taken?
i´ll be greatful for any comments.
-ekki
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 7, 2005 at 1:08:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You provider is crazy.
And you don’t need to over do it.
It isn’t so that the more you take the better.
If your girl will die from intoxication of Iboga,
Then it will most probably become illegal in your country.
Your provider doesn’t care he will move to another country
But you be stuck with hard feelings.
Did your provider try to take 15 gram by himself?
Or is he just a kid who like to make some money?
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Ekkehard Rau [mailto:ekkijdfg@gmx.de]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 januari 2005 1:19
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
hello everybody!
i was on this list a while ago, was off for a year and are back now.
here´s my story:
i became a daily user of h nearly 4 years ago.
since two years my life has been a circle of withdrawals and relapses.
in october i was in the black forest (i live in south-west germany at
the moment) when i ran out of dope. after two days i had to call a
doctor and he send me to a lokal hospital. it was ridiculous: i got so
much methadon, haldol, valium, tramadol and some pills that i felt
higher than when i was still on h and downers. after 5 days i was
released, not detoxed at all. i spend about 6 weeks with not much
sleep. i drank lots of vodka and layed in bed most of the time.
occasionally i would take some valium, tramadol or fentanyl.
on friday, december the 10th, i took about 25 grams of rootbark extract
all by myself. (my provider emailed that 15g should be maximum.) it
really blew me away. after 8 hours i took more extract, maybe 10g. i
flushed the rest (i had 50g) down the toilet since i feared to od on
ibo. i was in a nice dreamy state until saturday noon. then i felt
terrible. on tuesday(12/14/04) i od´ed on speedballs, probably because
my system was already fairly clean and i still had the iboga in my
body. i stopped breathing, my lips turned blue, my heartbeat was 190
and bloodpressure 60 to 88, i learned later. luckily someone was around
to call an ambulance. they pumped me with oxygen and i came back to
consciousness at the emergency station of a hospital. the next day i
gave a lecture at university about william burroughs (funny
coincidence). i drank heavily until sunday the 18th. i awoke on monday
morning the 19th, badly shaking, and knew it was all over. i really
woke up. no craving any more. no drinking or drugs necessary since
then. i felt the big, enormous, radiating and rotating sun i saw on
iboga shining all inside and outside of me.
the next couple of days i started to digest my iboga experience. i saw
very sad and dead lifeless fields and landscapes that filled me with
grief and compassion. i think those are the realms of my addiction.
then lots of demons where welcoming me with scornful laughter. for a
while every thought i had was spoken by changing characters that i saw
standing before me. i seemed to leave my_self, also my body. i cannot
remember everything that happened afterwards. there were ancient
tribes,plants and flowers, mutating grimaces, a smiling girl. most
impressive was the sun.
while this experience can be seen as something coming out of the
(un)conscious to be interpreted as a bunch of symbols, i also felt like
entering another world that exists independent of myself, still i seem
to be related to it.
being a psychedelic oldtimer of berlin techno scene in the 90s i
already made some synaptic journeys, but iboga is really something
else.
what wonders me is that it needed 10 days to free me. then i also
stopped smoking without any effort or will-power.
while there is a lot of i in this text i feel quite unpersonal these
days, a state i know from times of 3 or 4 weeks of intense
zen-meditation. the iboga gave me the desire to practice zen again, it
also sparkled an interest in shamanism. i recently met a mexican indian
initiated into a peyote cult. i told him my experience and he gave very
good and helpful remarks like he knows about those other worlds.
i plan to try iboga on my ex. she is shooting up lots of c&h and ran
out of veins. also she is very small and thin and has hep c, but not
acute. we became junkies together.
i want to give her a dose large enough, so that she can cope with
withdrawal and has a strong experience, on the other hand i fear she
might collapse since she is in bad shape. the plan is that she leaves
the scene in berlin a few days before and stays some days at her
mothers place in munich, where dope is much more expensive, so she will
reduce her habit there a bit and get good food and some rest. then she
will come to my place, use up her leftovers, wait for withdrawal to set
in and then start with the rootbark extract. i have taken a course in
first aid 2 years ago and i will have a oxygen mask as well as phone
numbers of emergency medical doctors. i read everything on ibogatherapy
i found in the net. she was in hospital in nov to detox where they
didn´t report anything wrong with her heart or liver, but i don´t have
an actual EKG or blood values. there is no open scene for drugs where i
life (at least not in winter), so she won´t be able to cop easily the
first days after the session. she is planing some aftercare program
like travelling to italy and afrika.
do you guys think bwiti-music and incense can be of help? are there any
other measures of caution to be taken?
i´ll be greatful for any comments.
-ekki
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] too strange not to share
Date: January 6, 2005 at 9:42:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well,
This came via another list and I am hoping the attachment goes through and it
works.
Look at this closely for about 30 seconds for an optical illusion of a
giraffe to pop up.
Howard
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 9:26:00 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Maybe I could get a shit load of shrooms and then turn on the tube<
I had brownies and a bowl or two and not enough opiates and felt way tripping already. Shrooms might not have been the best thing actually, considering they’re already in the realm of possibility and I’m not leaping to eat them.
;-))
Seriously Randy, the flick is on pay-per-view right now and it’s well worth renting. You’ll feel plenty tripping enough just watching it I assure you. You don’t need to wait for shrooms. I promise.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Well, guys, I don’t know about yall, but I’m down with another session. It’s been over 3 months for me now and I feel like all the noribogaine is gone. I’ve thought about getting high a time er two but, so far no problem. It’s good to see you back Steve, you helped me when I first got here. Going to Africa is on my must do before you die lists. Amsterdam too. What about this guy saying Ibogaine caused some brain damage? Any real proof of that or is it another guy spewing without any real information? I’ve been guilty of that on the positive side of Ibogaine and I have tried to refrain from such stuff as that lately. I’ll check out that flick Preston. Maybe I could get a shit load of shrooms and then turn on the tube……….of course I could time it so that I am peaking when the movie peaks. Whataya think? Randy
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: [Ibogaine( ]Out of Topic ) Bunyan’s Apologies
Date: January 6, 2005 at 8:37:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
John Bunnyan ‘s original apology for ” the Pilgrim’s progress ”
<SNIP>
If that thou wilt not read, let it alone:
Some love the meat, some love to pick the bone:
Yea, that I might them better palliate,
I did too with them thus Expostulate:
May I not write in such a stile as this ?
In such a method too, and yet not miss
Mine end, thy good? why may it not be done ?
Dark Clouds bring Waters,when the bright bring none,
Yea , dark or bright, if they their Silver drops
Cause to descend; the earth by Yielding Crops,
Give praise to both, and carpeth not at either,
But treasures up the Fruit they yield together;
Yea, so commixes both, that in her Fruit
None can distinguish this from that: they suit
Her well, when hungry: but if she be full,
She spues out both, and make their blessings null.
<SNIP>
God bless
francis
—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:26 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Apologies
Dear List,
I want to apologise for my last few posts, in particular to Carla. I know you were only trying to help. I am afraid I lost the thread of myself.
If it helps to understand, in the last week I have fully relived deeply repressed stuff about repeated abuse as a boy by a female and I am afraid that has spilled over onto the list. It seems that my Shadow came out of the bag. Had to happen. I am only sorry that it has not been an entirely positive esperience.
On top of that my mother is not well and that has been upsetting me.
Many apologies once again.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Ekkehard Rau <ekkijdfg@gmx.de>
Subject: [Ibogaine] iboga experience & therapy
Date: January 6, 2005 at 7:19:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hello everybody!
i was on this list a while ago, was off for a year and are back now.
here´s my story:
i became a daily user of h nearly 4 years ago.
since two years my life has been a circle of withdrawals and relapses. in october i was in the black forest (i live in south-west germany at the moment) when i ran out of dope. after two days i had to call a doctor and he send me to a lokal hospital. it was ridiculous: i got so much methadon, haldol, valium, tramadol and some pills that i felt higher than when i was still on h and downers. after 5 days i was released, not detoxed at all. i spend about 6 weeks with not much sleep. i drank lots of vodka and layed in bed most of the time. occasionally i would take some valium, tramadol or fentanyl.
on friday, december the 10th, i took about 25 grams of rootbark extract all by myself. (my provider emailed that 15g should be maximum.) it really blew me away. after 8 hours i took more extract, maybe 10g. i flushed the rest (i had 50g) down the toilet since i feared to od on ibo. i was in a nice dreamy state until saturday noon. then i felt terrible. on tuesday(12/14/04) i od´ed on speedballs, probably because my system was already fairly clean and i still had the iboga in my body. i stopped breathing, my lips turned blue, my heartbeat was 190 and bloodpressure 60 to 88, i learned later. luckily someone was around to call an ambulance. they pumped me with oxygen and i came back to consciousness at the emergency station of a hospital. the next day i gave a lecture at university about william burroughs (funny coincidence). i drank heavily until sunday the 18th. i awoke on monday morning the 19th, badly shaking, and knew it was all over. i really woke up. no craving any more. no drinking or drugs necessary since then. i felt the big, enormous, radiating and rotating sun i saw on iboga shining all inside and outside of me.
the next couple of days i started to digest my iboga experience. i saw very sad and dead lifeless fields and landscapes that filled me with grief and compassion. i think those are the realms of my addiction. then lots of demons where welcoming me with scornful laughter. for a while every thought i had was spoken by changing characters that i saw standing before me. i seemed to leave my_self, also my body. i cannot remember everything that happened afterwards. there were ancient tribes,plants and flowers, mutating grimaces, a smiling girl. most impressive was the sun.
while this experience can be seen as something coming out of the (un)conscious to be interpreted as a bunch of symbols, i also felt like entering another world that exists independent of myself, still i seem to be related to it.
being a psychedelic oldtimer of berlin techno scene in the 90s i already made some synaptic journeys, but iboga is really something else.
what wonders me is that it needed 10 days to free me. then i also stopped smoking without any effort or will-power.
while there is a lot of i in this text i feel quite unpersonal these days, a state i know from times of 3 or 4 weeks of intense zen-meditation. the iboga gave me the desire to practice zen again, it also sparkled an interest in shamanism. i recently met a mexican indian initiated into a peyote cult. i told him my experience and he gave very good and helpful remarks like he knows about those other worlds.
i plan to try iboga on my ex. she is shooting up lots of c&h and ran out of veins. also she is very small and thin and has hep c, but not acute. we became junkies together.
i want to give her a dose large enough, so that she can cope with withdrawal and has a strong experience, on the other hand i fear she might collapse since she is in bad shape. the plan is that she leaves the scene in berlin a few days before and stays some days at her mothers place in munich, where dope is much more expensive, so she will reduce her habit there a bit and get good food and some rest. then she will come to my place, use up her leftovers, wait for withdrawal to set in and then start with the rootbark extract. i have taken a course in first aid 2 years ago and i will have a oxygen mask as well as phone numbers of emergency medical doctors. i read everything on ibogatherapy i found in the net. she was in hospital in nov to detox where they didn´t report anything wrong with her heart or liver, but i don´t have an actual EKG or blood values. there is no open scene for drugs where i life (at least not in winter), so she won´t be able to cop easily the first days after the session. she is planing some aftercare program like travelling to italy and afrika.
do you guys think bwiti-music and incense can be of help? are there any other measures of caution to be taken?
i´ll be greatful for any comments.
-ekki
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Patrick Read Me Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine question seattle
Date: January 6, 2005 at 7:17:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Here’s more of you on UROD 🙂
.:vector:.
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine question seattle
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:02:02 -0500
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 07:12:39PM -0800],
[crownofthorns@hushmail.com] wrote:
| That was very restrained Patrick, what no top 100 reasons you
hate
| Lance Gooberman list? 😉
|
| If I remember your little speech right bro, Richard Resnick was a
| wonderful doctor who is being persecuted for helping people and
Lance
| Gooberman should be cut into little pieces. Resnick gave you a lot
of
| drugs and all you got from Gooberman were 2 lousy urods 😉
I didn’t say that, I said Lance should be strung-out and then detoxed
using the exact methodology he feels okay to employ on other people.
Lance is a basehead (not past tense in the mid-late 90’s) not a
junkie
—
that was his partner — Lance has never been sprung.
He’s also a piece of shit, and an idiot. Having said all that I am
unsure
that I could wish anything worse upon him that what he already lives
within every day of his life. He’s THE fat, bald, stupid, Ronald
McDonald
looking Archetype for treatment pimp.
There is nothing I can possibly say that expresses any of it better
than
what Lance has to say for himself. What is stunning and absolutely
blows
my mind, is how proud he is of creating this little paradigm, and so
loving it that he has willingly filled his mind with this shit,
crawled
inside it, and appears to be happy living locked inside a box and
ruled
by
fear.
This is Lance Gooberman’s headspace, he splatters it all over the
place
and spends all his free time attempting to inflict his beliefs upon
anyone
stupid enough to want a UROD.
152 slides of the contents of Lance’s head. Truly a beautiful place,
filled with a lot of beauty, strength and hope:
http://www.lancegooberman.com/tutorial.htm
Apocalyptic visions of hell filled with infernos and legions of
demons,
are all pretty cartoony, videogame-like, and ultimately
fun!@#121!@!!!!!
What’s really at the very deepest, darkest, heart of darkness, is a
little
room with Lance Gooberman inside of it, where you will sit and listen
to
him talk bullshit for All Eternity — or longer, if at all possible
—
while going through withdrawal. And every time you kill him, all the
pieces reassemble until you wind up with an endless ocean of Lance
Gooberman’s who will simply not shut the fuck up.
I am highly resentful of having had to waste a fucking HUGE amount of
processing time on the Cosmic CPU just to strip all that shit out of
my
mind, and set fire to it.
All of which is a long way of saying I hate Lance Gooberman, and
believe
he should burst into fucking flames and die. But in a loving,
nurturing,
compassionate way.
– – – – – – – – –
Resnick is nothing whatsoever like this. He’s a reasonably smart guy
and
a decent person. All he did was flip through my list of former
shrinks
and treatment pimps, arrive at the conclusion that nothing he said to
me
was gonna make much of a dent, explained all the options for the
different
things he does, and asked me what I wanted to try.
Well, everything of course! Why else would I possibly be wandering
through this headspace if I didn’t want all experience?
He gets harassed because he has an, uhm, arrangement to do various
studies. He doesn’t write for narcotic analgesics, he just goes into
the
magical room, and then throws handfuls of nEaT DruGZ at you. Then
every
so often one of his clients gets busted going through a metal
detector
holding 50 syringes and 300 ampules of buprinex with no script, and
no
name on any of it.
So you have some guy with enough drugs on him to kill half the
neighborhood who is explaining it’s all for him and he doesn’t have
intent
to distribute and it all came from his doctor, this dude named
Resnick,
and so it goes…
When all is said and done I dropped maybe $15K on Lance, and $30K on
Resnick. My feelings towards Gooberman are obvious, but I have no
ill-will towards Resnick at all. He isn’t a treatment pimp. It was
just like, oh well, it didn’t work out, maybe another 200-300 tries
and
I’ll finally get it right. Catcha later do0d.
Patrick
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: January 6, 2005 at 7:14:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick, wake up! 🙂 You’ve been in wired 10 times, I think their UROD
article deserves a rebuttal!
You’ve had UROD two or three times, you’re the ibogaine poster child,
you’ve been featured in Wired with MindVox mad times.
Do something!
.:vector:.
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:59:18 -0500
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:17:21PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.” Lance Gooberman, I mean.
| Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
|
| Dana/cnw
Gooberman is a total and absolute fuckhead. Resnick and Gooberman
are
—
or were — the two main detox doctors in the NYC area roughly 5 years
back. Resnick is, well, whatever. He’s okay. He may or may not
take
various actions that are highly questionable in terms of how he
dispenses
“medication,” which is entirely between him and whomever is
attempting
to
prosecute him; but he’s an okay person and NOT totally full of shit.
Lance invented the whole entire assembly-line UROD conveyor belt
paradigm;
junkie in one end –> UROD –> <presto!> You are CURED! spin
control,
and
plastered huge billboards all over sugar hill, spanish harlem, and
Hunt’s
Point advertising his shit. While Andre Waismann invented UROD,
Lance
is
the one who made it highly popular, very profitable, and totally
sleazy.
Most of his former clients have expressed the general wish that it’d
be
karmically correct to get Lance strung out, and then repeatedly detox
him
using his own methodology.
I can’t find any fault with that line of reasoning.
Patrick
__________________________________________________
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Dr. Drew/ was/ Re: thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 6:41:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Howard said : ” What utter crap.”
And I totally agree with you Howard.
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 6 januari 2005 23:47
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] Dr. Drew/ was/ Re: thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Dear Steve,
What utter crap. Three months of interruption of drug dependence in a
runaway addiction is anything but a failure and I certainly would like to
know what
Dr. Drew considers “hallucinogen induced brain injuries” and, if we are
going
to talk science what baseline evaluation he had on these patients. Yes, Dr.
Drew is quite scary.
Howard
In a message dated 1/6/05 12:42:51 PM, stevenanker@hotmail.com writes:
<<
Ibogaine is heavy shit, eh? A while ago I contacted Dr. Drew from that radio
show ‘love-line’ about ibo. He works by day at a drug clinic. I thought it
would help the cause to have a national known addiction specialist work with
it. He did and this is what he wrote me about his experience:
Steve,
I have now had two cases since we have begun exchanging emails who had been
treated with Ibogaine. I am sorry to say that both were abject and scary
failures. Indeed, both were able to stop doing drugs seemingly
spontaneously for three months after the the Ibogaine but both drifted
slowly back to their disease at still greater intensity. The scary thing is
that both had evidence of hallucinogen induced brain injuries. They were
both opiate addicts and had never done any other drugs known to injure the
brain in this way.
Scary, eh?
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] rapid detox- egad!
Date: January 6, 2005 at 6:29:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Big choice, let this guy hit you up with naltrexone and sodium pentathol or what ever and puke, or, take the Ibogaine, see the colors, trip your ass off, find life affirming things in the holideck and puke. I want in the long line. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 6:17:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well, guys, I don’t know about yall, but I’m down with another session. It’s been over 3 months for me now and I feel like all the noribogaine is gone. I’ve thought about getting high a time er two but, so far no problem. It’s good to see you back Steve, you helped me when I first got here. Going to Africa is on my must do before you die lists. Amsterdam too. What about this guy saying Ibogaine caused some brain damage? Any real proof of that or is it another guy spewing without any real information? I’ve been guilty of that on the positive side of Ibogaine and I have tried to refrain from such stuff as that lately. I’ll check out that flick Preston. Maybe I could get a shit load of shrooms and then turn on the tube……….of course I could time it so that I am peaking when the movie peaks. Whataya think? Randy
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] chipping turned back to habit,again
Date: January 6, 2005 at 5:51:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Go for it Shelly and keep us posted. I’d say the ibogaine factor is still
playing a part in how you are responding. Would you agree?
Howard
In a message dated 1/6/05 2:05:19 PM, skrupa20022002@yahoo.com writes:
<< Hi Yall ,its been a while since Ive posted.Last time I did ,I think I was
celebrating the fact that I got past the 6 month mark post ibogaine without
going back to the same ol’same ol’.I had been chipping ,well using hydrocodone
or oxy once or twice a week orally.Cant say exactly when I crossed the line
,but i know the holiday stuff is difficult for me,to say the least.I even went
off on a coke binge smoking crack a day and a half.Well ,i noticed I had violent
diarrhea and sweats,Im back there,again.My habit is very light,I can go 24
hours or more without using,but Im addicted.I had a falling out with my best
friend when I told her Ive been slipping.Ive been calling in sick at
work,spending money,etc,you know the drill.Im commited to work until the end of
February,schedule wise.Ive been contemplating going to Sara’s in the spring.But I know
if I continue using whats to come,a heavier habit,more debt,my deal is online
supply,some street supply but nothing reliable,to say the least.So
rather than continuing the downward spiral,Ive decided to do a brief
buprenex detox.I called the doc that helped me last year,he was more than happy to
help , it’ll even cost alot less too.Of course bup is not my first choice, I
love ibogaine to detox.But Im at the point where I still have enough free will to
decide rather than being backed into a corner with calamity.I dont have to
keep on fucking up to the point that Ive lost my job & put my nursing license in
jeaprody.I also have hep c ,and all the tylenol in the pills is scary too.Im
not big on 12 step,especially after doing ibogaine 3 times,but I need to take
some action now.Lonliness is a big reason why I picked up again,I was doing
Smart online,no meetings here.Im not hooked up with a therapist whose hip to
ibogaine,and live in the bible belt.The list in a godsend,to be sure ,but I need
to look people in the eye and get hugs.So Ive chosen bup to get unhooked for
now ,maybe Sara’s will be an option come March ,but for now
…Im trying to avoid the “oh why do I fuck up again & again” deal,angd just
get back on the path.Im grateful to yall for the attention & care shown on
this list,guess its my turn to ask for support.I know it’ll be hard without the
noribogaine that skips the post detox depression,but this feels like the best
choice.Please send good intention prayers my way.feels pretty dismal and my
thinking is screwed,but Im on the way back!!!!!Love yall and will be psting more
now -shell >>
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Dr. Drew/ was/ Re: thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 5:47:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Steve,
What utter crap. Three months of interruption of drug dependence in a
runaway addiction is anything but a failure and I certainly would like to know what
Dr. Drew considers “hallucinogen induced brain injuries” and, if we are going
to talk science what baseline evaluation he had on these patients. Yes, Dr.
Drew is quite scary.
Howard
In a message dated 1/6/05 12:42:51 PM, stevenanker@hotmail.com writes:
<<
Ibogaine is heavy shit, eh? A while ago I contacted Dr. Drew from that radio
show ‘love-line’ about ibo. He works by day at a drug clinic. I thought it
would help the cause to have a national known addiction specialist work with
it. He did and this is what he wrote me about his experience:
Steve,
I have now had two cases since we have begun exchanging emails who had been
treated with Ibogaine. I am sorry to say that both were abject and scary
failures. Indeed, both were able to stop doing drugs seemingly
spontaneously for three months after the the Ibogaine but both drifted
slowly back to their disease at still greater intensity. The scary thing is
that both had evidence of hallucinogen induced brain injuries. They were
both opiate addicts and had never done any other drugs known to injure the
brain in this way.
Scary, eh?
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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] chipping turned back to habit,again
Date: January 6, 2005 at 1:56:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Yall ,its been a while since Ive posted.Last time I did ,I think I was celebrating the fact that I got past the 6 month mark post ibogaine without going back to the same ol’same ol’.I had been chipping ,well using hydrocodone or oxy once or twice a week orally.Cant say exactly when I crossed the line ,but i know the holiday stuff is difficult for me,to say the least.I even went off on a coke binge smoking crack a day and a half.Well ,i noticed I had violent diarrhea and sweats,Im back there,again.My habit is very light,I can go 24 hours or more without using,but Im addicted.I had a falling out with my best friend when I told her Ive been slipping.Ive been calling in sick at work,spending money,etc,you know the drill.Im commited to work until the end of February,schedule wise.Ive been contemplating going to Sara’s in the spring.But I know if I continue using whats to come,a heavier habit,more debt,my deal is online supply,some street supply but nothing reliable,to say the least.So rather than continuing the downward spiral,Ive decided to do a brief buprenex detox.I called the doc that helped me last year,he was more than happy to help , it’ll even cost alot less too.Of course bup is not my first choice, I love ibogaine to detox.But Im at the point where I still have enough free will to decide rather than being backed into a corner with calamity.I dont have to keep on fucking up to the point that Ive lost my job & put my nursing license in jeaprody.I also have hep c ,and all the tylenol in the pills is scary too.Im not big on 12 step,especially after doing ibogaine 3 times,but I need to take some action now.Lonliness is a big reason why I picked up again,I was doing Smart online,no meetings here.Im not hooked up with a therapist whose hip to ibogaine,and live in the bible belt.The list in a godsend,to be sure ,but I need to look people in the eye and get hugs.So Ive chosen bup to get unhooked for now ,maybe Sara’s will be an option come March ,but for now …Im trying to avoid the “oh why do I fuck up again & again” deal,angd just get back on the path.Im grateful to yall for the attention & care shown on this list,guess its my turn to ask for support.I know it’ll be hard without the noribogaine that skips the post detox depression,but this feels like the best choice.Please send good intention prayers my way.feels pretty dismal and my thinking is screwed,but Im on the way back!!!!!Love yall and will be psting more now -shell
Brad Fisher <brad.fisher@guaranty.com> wrote:
This report does not even begin to give an accurate description of what an
addict of a few years of heavy use will endure…
When I was called (once) as a follow-up, after a few minutes they did not
want to talk to me any more and needless to say they never called back.
AGAIN, the most horrible experiance of my 52 years..
bf
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 3:31 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com; drugwar@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] rapid detox- egad!
hi all,
From my friend Alex Burns at Disinfo. I’m reminded once again how little
fun this technique sounds.
> From Wired Magazine, available online at:
> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.01/detox.html?tw=wn_tophead_4
>
> Instant Detox Kick heroin in 24 hours – no willpower, withdrawal, or
> preaching required. Call it a cure. Call it junk science. Call it the
> one-step program.By Joshua DavisPage 1 of 4 next
>
> Bryan Peterson sat on the toilet in the master bathroom of his Palm
> Springs, California, home and tried to find a vein between his
> knuckles. It was virgin territory – he had never injected himself in a
> spot he couldn’t cover up. But now that he’d been fired from his job
> in the estimating department of a construction company, he didn’t care
> about covering up anymore. Plus, he couldn’t find a vein in his arms,
> which were swollen with pools of pus and heroin. The thin, translucent
> blue veins snaking across the back of his hand filled him with joy. He
> slid the needle in beside his knucklebone. It hurt. Story Tools
> [an error occurred while processing this directive]
>
> Two weeks later, he’d blown out all the tiny veins in his hands and
> feet. Unable to absorb all that fluid, they burst, adding more blood
> to the already toxic mix festering under his skin. He started plunging
> the needle deep into his bicep, shooting heroin directly into the
> muscle. The drug seemed to sizzle as he injected it.
>
> Peterson was 36 and had been addicted for three years. Before that, he
> was just a normal working guy who liked to play guitar in a local rock
> band. Over the past two and a half years, he’d tried to kick his habit
> cold turkey three times and attended a few Narcotics Anonymous
> meetings. He’d make it through the first step – acknowledging that he
> was powerless over his addiction – and that was it. Even with the
> group therapy sessions and encouragement from fellow addicts, he
> couldn’t stay clean for more than 10 days. The withdrawal pains were
> so unbearable, he fantasized about cutting off his legs to stop the
> aching. And when the pain subsided for a moment, he was racked with
> nausea and diarrhea. His body was holding him hostage: Either take the
> drug, it said, or you’ll feel so much pain you’ll want to die.
>
> Then one day Peterson was talking to a friend who mentioned a miracle
> treatment gaining popularity in the Los Angeles area. Doctors were
> anesthetizing addicts and using an intravenous drug cocktail to induce
> an almost instantaneous withdrawal from the heroin. Within 24 hours,
> an addict would be pronounced clean and sober. Peterson borrowed the
> $15,000 for the procedure from his family, shot up one last time, and
> headed for Orange County.
>
> “The 12-step program is an outdated 20th-century concept,” says
> Clifford Bernstein, an assistant clinical professor of anesthesiology
> at UC Irvine and medical director of the Waismann Institute, the
> nation’s leading rapid detox center. “For 70 years, thanks to
> Alcoholics Anonymous, addicts have been told they’re suffering from a
> spiritual problem. AA assumes that you can talk someone out of their
> addiction – which is ridiculous. Addiction is a medical problem. If
> somebody has cancer, you don’t try to talk them out of their disease.”
>
>
> Bernstein’s steeply angled eyebrows make him look surprised and angry.
> When he speaks, he’s quiet and measured, but his expression suggests
> amazement at the foolish things people believe. His eyebrows arch even
> higher when he examines Peterson’s ravaged arms.
>
> The procedure is scheduled to take place in the Garden Grove Hospital
> and Medical Center’s intensive care unit, which Peterson now shares
> with a burn victim, a barely breathing obese woman, and a screaming
> elderly lady with multiple bone fractures. If he weren’t about to
> undergo rapid detox, Peterson would be considered too healthy to be
> here. It’s been 30 hours since he last shot up, and though he’s well
> into the early stages of withdrawal, he’s only suffering from a cold
> sweat, a dull ache in his leg, and a mounting panic.
>
> The reaction is normal. Opiate molecules have a chemical structure
> similar to endorphins – a natural hormone that regulates pain and
> pleasure. When a heroin user shoots up, the opiates in the drug plug
> into the nerve receptors normally occupied by endorphins. If opiates
> are administered repeatedly, endorphin production drops. The body has
> essentially been tricked into short-circuiting the natural
> pain-pleasure regulation system.
>
> The addiction turns ugly when the opiate is withheld. Without the
> presence of either the opiates or the natural endorphins, an addict’s
> pain receptors cease to regulate brain signals. The unimpeded flow of
> stimulation causes acute pain while triggering a cascade of reactions
> throughout the body: sweating, uncontrollable diarrhea, vomiting, and
> severe depression. It’s not fatal – though it may feel like it – and
> the addict often relapses just to stop the torment. It usually takes
> two to three weeks of suffering before natural endorphin production
> resumes and the pleasure-pain equilibrium is restored.
>
> Considering the ordeal, it’s not surprising that quitting cold turkey
> works only about 5 percent of the time. To improve on that success
> rate, drug treatment experts have traditionally relied on three
> approaches: methadone, symptomatic treatment, and Narcotics Anonymous.
> Methadone, and its modern substitute buprenorphine, are opiates that
> don’t produce a high. An addict taking these drugs has essentially
> moved from a risky, illegal dependency to a safer, legal one. But if
> they don’t take the methadone, withdrawal begins within hours. For
> users who don’t want to be addicted to any substance, treating the
> symptoms with a combination of anti-nausea, antidiarrheal, and
> sedation drugs can help ease the pain of withdrawal. Finally, the
> support of an NA group is usually recommended in conjunction with all
> other treatments. These methods have a success rate of 30 percent to
> 40 percent after a year.
>
> Bernstein says he has a better way to kick opiate addiction – one that
> painlessly strips the drug from the brain’s nerve receptors in 20
> minutes. The procedure, which relies on a combination of medicines, is
> carried out while the patient is anesthetized – a conscious patient
> would be in so much agony there would be risk of a heart attack.
> According to Bernstein, the roughly 2,500 patients the institute has
> treated wake up after an hour and are no longer addicted. Even if an
> addict were to shoot up after the procedure, there would be no effect.
> The opiate would be blocked from binding with the receptors already
> occupied by naltrexone, a drug which must be taken orally for a year.
> Bernstein says 65 percent of Waismann patients are still clean after a
> year.
>
> Critics dismiss those numbers and denounce the Waismann method as a
> scam that takes advantage of desperate addicts. But the American
> Society of Addiction Medicine has come out in support of the
> treatment, and the society’s former president claims that it’s one of
> the most innovative developments in the field since the advent of the
> 12-step program in the 1930s.
>
> With a recent surge in the abuse of opiate-based painkillers such as
> OxyContin, the institute’s business is booming. He has put up
> billboards across the country and has explained the procedure on MTV,
> CBS, and NBC. So far, he’s drowning out his critics. And, like Lasik
> eye surgery in the 1990s, rapid detox is making the transition from
> experimental technique to standard procedure offered nationwide.
> Competitors have emerged: A rival rapid detox center opened last year
> in Los Angeles, and there are centers in Colorado, Florida, Illinois,
> Michigan, New Jersey, and New York. Hundreds of addicts are going
> through rapid detox each year, and proponents like Bernstein are
> positioning the approach as a modern, humane alternative to Narcotics
> Anonymous.
>
> Which makes Peterson an early adopter. Now anesthetized, he lies
> almost motionless in the intensive care unit. Blue fluid is being
> pumped through his veins. Withdrawal has never been so easy. But it’s
> also never been so deadly.
>
> In 1988, Austrian physician Norbert Loimer was studying opiate
> withdrawal when he discovered that injecting addicts with naloxone –
> the intravenous form of the opiate blocker naltrexone – achieved what
> he referred to as “acute detoxification.” It was accompanied by
> intense suffering, which he tried to alleviate by sedating the
> patients. It worked. His experimental process condensed the typical
> weeks-long withdrawal into a matter of days. Though he believed that
> the procedure was too dangerous to be offered to the public, he
> published his findings in a medical journal, where they were read with
> interest by addiction medicine specialists.
>
> One of them was Lance Gooberman, an American MD who concluded that the
> danger of Loimer’s rapid detox method was outweighed by the fact that
> addicts were dying on the streets every day. Gooberman knew the risks
> of drug dependence first hand – he was an alcoholic and had been
> hooked on methamphetamines before he began treating other addicts. He
> understood that many junkies wouldn’t even consider kicking –
> conventional detox scared them too much. A faster, less painful
> withdrawal could mean the difference between going into treatment and
> death for many. So in 1994 Gooberman took Loimer’s experimental work
> and turned it into a business.
>
> Over the next five years, Gooberman performed more than 2,300 rapid
> detoxifications in his offices in Philadelphia and southern New
> Jersey. According to county coroners, seven of those addicts died of
> complications relating to the procedure. That was enough for David
> Samson, New Jersey’s attorney general, to file civil charges against
> Gooberman in October 1999, accusing him of “repeated gross
> malpractice, professional negligence, professional incompetence, and
> professional misconduct.” Samson contended that rapid detox was an
> unproven treatment that put too much strain on patients’ bodies. It
> just wasn’t reasonable, the complaint explained, to assume that a
> two-week ordeal could be safely condensed into an hour. He argued that
> Gooberman was promising more than he could deliver and creating “a
> clear and imminent danger to the public’s health, safety, and
> welfare.”
>
> While Gooberman was building his practice on the East Coast, Bernstein
> was recruited to head up the Waismann Institute in Beverly Hills,
> California. The institute was founded by Clare Waismann, a Brazilian
> businesswoman who realized that rapid detox addressed an unmet need.
> The market was crowded with 12-step programs and methadone clinics,
> but all of them required addicts to stick with a program. Rapid detox
> largely removed willpower from the experience – it was a concept
> Waismann thought would make her institute the dominant detox facility
> on the West Coast and, eventually, in the nation.
>
> Bernstein was an ideal partner. He had attended a respected medical
> school (Rutgers), understood opiate addiction, and was a med school
> faculty member. He was energetic, believed in the treatment, and was
> ready to devote his credentials and time to winning mainstream
> acceptance for it.
>
> But the headlines generated by the case against Gooberman weren’t
> making it easy. Gooberman was on trial, but the defendant in the
> three-year case was really the procedure itself. Most of the testimony
> concerned the alleged dangers and benefits of rapid detox. And since
> the FDA does not regulate medical procedures, the case became a battle
> over the legitimacy of the treatment.
>
> Samson laid out his argument clearly, beginning with the obvious:
> Opiate withdrawal is a nonlethal condition, but seven of Gooberman’s
> patients had died. Anesthesia alone carries a small risk of death.
> When coupled with an infusion of novel drugs, there’s no telling how
> dangerous it can be, particularly since there have been no large-scale
> scientific studies on the procedure’s effectiveness. In essence, he
> was saying that the cure was worse than the disease.
>
> David Smith, a leading addiction doctor and former president of the
> American Society of Addiction Medicine, disagreed. Smith testified
> that rapid detox was the procedure of last resort for addicts who had
> tried everything else and failed. Many of them just couldn’t withstand
> the pain of withdrawal. Gooberman offered them another option. His
> patients came from a population whose health was already compromised –
> just treating them was a risk. But the fact that he tried to help them
> didn’t mean he was responsible for their deaths. “How many would have
> died if they’d stayed on drugs?” Smith asks. “Treatment is not a
> threat to public health, and the attorney general did a disservice by
> trying to criminalize it.”
>
> The judge in the case agreed that Samson was overreaching. In a
> 353-page opinion handed down at the end of 2002, he concluded there
> was no evidence that rapid detox “caused or contributed” to the seven
> deaths. He called the treatment “potentially promising” – but rebuked
> Gooberman for a variety of medical oversights, fined him $11,500, and
> revoked his license for six months. The attorney general appealed, and
> Gooberman soon settled the case out of court. He agreed to pay
> $375,500 to the state and $30,000 to the families of the deceased. He
> also agreed to have his medical license revoked for two years. His
> reputation was damaged beyond repair. No hospital would hire him, and
> he disappeared from public view.
>
> That left one man in the media spotlight – just in time for a surge in
> demand. Bernstein made it through rapid detox’s early years without a
> fatality, and now OxyContin abuse was skyrocketing. The treatment had
> been legally vindicated, and Bernstein’s main competitor on the
> national stage couldn’t practice medicine anymore.
>
> Bernstein smiles as the cameraman holds the shot. It’s early in 2001,
> and the Gooberman case rages on. 48 Hours, the CBS newsmagazine show,
> is documenting the plight of Troy Swett, a 22-year-old OxyContin
> addict. Swett has just arrived at the hospital in Orange County to be
> detoxed, and Bernstein is ready for his close-up. “Congratulations for
> coming,” Bernstein says, shaking Swett’s hand. “It’s the first step.”
>
> In a traditional 12-step program, the first step is to admit
> powerlessness over the addiction. Now, according to Bernstein, the
> first step is arriving at the Waismann Institute. This kind of
> national exposure is important for Bernstein. It’s an opportunity to
> continue redefining how the public thinks about addiction.
>
> During the segment, Bernstein notes that 90 to 95 percent of his
> patients are clean after a month. The on-air reporter asks about
> long-term effectiveness, to which Bernstein replies, “People walk out
> of here, their withdrawal is finished, and they’re not craving.” And
> the segment moves on.
>
> But the numbers deserve more scrutiny. They are compiled by the
> Waismann staff without independent confirmation. They are also based
> solely on follow-up phone calls, and there’s no guarantee that
> everyone is called. (At least one Waismann client, OxyContin addict
> Tim Lincoln, says he was never contacted after he returned home to
> Texas. He relapsed after two months.) Bernstein doesn’t defend the
> absolute accuracy of the success rate stats. “Maybe it’s a little
> off,” he says, “but it’s still much, much higher than methadone or
> Narcotics Anonymous programs.”
>
> Even substantiated statistics wouldn’t necessarily prove that rapid
> detox is better than conventional treatments. The type of patients who
> come to the Waismann Institute tend to have more family and social
> support and can afford the $15,000 fee. They are more likely to get
> clean in any kind of treatment program. And there’s another twist:
> Bernstein says that about 70 percent of his patients are addicted to
> prescription painkillers. He admits that the success rate for heroin
> addicts is probably lower, but he doesn’t know the exact figure.
> Still, Waismann advertises a single success rate – 65 percent – and is
> therefore luring heroin abusers with a potentially exaggerated
> promise.
>
> Bernstein cites independent studies to buttress his claims. A study
> from the University of Miami School of Medicine in 2000 reports a 55
> percent abstinence rate six months after rapid detoxification. A
> German clinical investigation in 2000 found a 68 percent success rate
> at 12 months. But neither study compared the procedure with a control
> group, so it’s impossible to state whether patients would have been
> more or less successful with another treatment.
>
> Herbert Kleber, director of the division on substance abuse at
> Columbia University, takes issue with Bernstein’s claims. “I challenge
> him to take 100 addicts off the street and show a 65 percent success
> rate,” Kleber says. “He won’t be able to.”
>
> Kleber has just completed the largest scientific study of rapid detox
> to date, and his numbers don’t come close to matching Bernstein’s.
> Using a $1 million grant from the National Institute on Drug Abuse,
> Kleber followed 105 abusers through rapid detox and two other
> treatments. He found that after three months, rapid detox fared no
> better than other methods.
>
> But even if it doesn’t work as advertised, it’s still a useful
> treatment that can seem like a miracle cure. Even Tim Lincoln, the
> relapsed OxyContin addict from Texas, grudgingly admits it served a
> purpose. Before he went to see Bernstein, he tried to quit twice, only
> to suffer a week of diarrhea, nausea, and severe depression each time.
> Though he didn’t feel good after rapid detox, he didn’t have any
> diarrhea or nausea. Essentially, Bernstein’s treatment allowed him to
> skip that first and most painful week of the process.
>
> It was an illusory victory – Lincoln relapsed within two months. He
> eventually found the willpower to suffer through the withdrawal on his
> own and, with the help of Narcotics Anonymous, is clean now. But for
> addicts who cannot make it through that first week of withdrawal any
> other way, the $15,000 procedure may be their only hope. And for white
> collar addicts – business executives, doctors, celebrities, sports
> stars – the quick fix promised by rapid detox is a powerful draw.
>
> Amanda, a busy Northern California medical-supply sales rep who asked
> that her real name not be used, was popping 20 Vicodins a day but
> didn’t want to take a lot of time to deal with her addiction. Before
> she found out about Waismann, she was preparing for a 30-day detox in
> Malibu. Bernstein, she says, cured her in a weekend: “They put me
> under Friday. I was a little groggy Saturday. By Sunday, I was ready
> to get back to work. And I had no desire for the pills.”
>
> While criticism from within the medical community hasn’t influenced
> Bernstein, competition may. In November, Chicago-based Midwest Rapid
> Opiate Detoxification Specialists opened a center in LA. Jake Epperly,
> the clinical director, distinguishes his method from the Waismann
> practice by emphasizing “the absolute necessity of a continuing care
> recovery program” based on Narcotics Anonymous. Epperly runs his own
> halfway house in Chicago and markets his group as the only rapid detox
=== message truncated ===
From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 6, 2005 at 1:46:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Peter
Just read your mail to steve, and i see that you have just been treated by Brian, I am hoping to soon just trying to save up the cash to do so. What was it like the whole eperience?? what was Brian like??? Did you have the treatment at home?? I am sorry to bombard you with questions but I am so interested and excited about the whole ibo experience, how do you feel now??
donna
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] some painkillers may cause damage to small intestine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 1:44:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I find it interesting that legal OTC painkillers cause
damage to the body, while opiates do not.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/01/04/analgesics.reut/
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: “Steven Anker” <stevenanker@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 12:31:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Preston,
Thanks for venting. I relate.
Hang in there dude… Your situation is tough because you seem to have that junkie feed me vibe as well as actual pain to deal with. Very tough scene you must be in. Be good and maybe a few activities to get you out of your head. Golf perhaps or watching a movie… At least you’re not an orphan in Sri Lanka. Things will work themselves out.
The same writer who wrote “Eternal” wrote “Adaptation.” The beginning has a distinctly hallucinogenic vibe and the orchids give powerful trips.. Check it out, you will relate to it. I thought of iboga/mushrooms/whatever when I saw it.
It makes sense to be confused about ibogaine. I don’t think we understand it completely.
Ibogaine is heavy shit, eh? A while ago I contacted Dr. Drew from that radio show ‘love-line’ about ibo. He works by day at a drug clinic. I thought it would help the cause to have a national known addiction specialist work with it. He did and this is what he wrote me about his experience:
Steve,
I have now had two cases since we have begun exchanging emails who had been treated with Ibogaine. I am sorry to say that both were abject and scary failures. Indeed, both were able to stop doing drugs seemingly spontaneously for three months after the the Ibogaine but both drifted slowly back to their disease at still greater intensity. The scary thing is that both had evidence of hallucinogen induced brain injuries. They were both opiate addicts and had never done any other drugs known to injure the brain in this way.
Scary, eh?
When I was in Gabon it really struck me how few Bwiti (practically no one) ever took the initiation more than once. There is this belief around that ibogaine works better for addiction if done multiple times, each relapse go in and take the magic bullet. With enough times, the brain and mind is fixed. I don’t know if this is true, perhaps with some people.
It’s been over two years since I first took ibogaine for my opiate addiction and my thoughts about it have changed over the course of time. Some things I’ve noticed: The most dogmatic are those who just took it or those who have never taken it. Ibo is a useful tool for some, a magic bullet for some, harmful for some, and for some makes no real difference a little poorer, but no worse for wear. For me, it was helpful but I made many other changes in my life in order to stay clean. Getting arrested for dope, for instance. We don’t really know what the best way to treat addiction is. Maybe ibo once and then a combo of the nor-ibogaine patch and 18-mc. Perhaps iboga is best left in the jungles of West Africa. One of the Bwiti priest’s told me “It’s a sad day when the holy root is put in a pill.” We don’t know. They thought ibogaine was the white man’s evil.
The thing I have come to believe completely is that addiction treatment sucks in it’s current state. Maybe there just needs to be many more options for people. AA works for some, methadone helps others, ibo for some. A very close friend was helped by UROD, even though the detox was hellish. He was the sort of guy who needed more dope than a raging bull rhino, big guy right? He woke up in the middle of the detox and had no clue where he was, full of needles and tubes and no one came when he called for help. The medication afterwards helped and he had high regards for the Matrix (Non 12 step) after-care program. He’s been clean for a couple of years. Many people also just plain stop on their own. UROD seems slightly cool as a poor-man’s version of the Keith Richards travel to Switzerland and swap your blood out treatment.
I put Keeping Clean together for a friend who had relapsed and was taking ibogaine for the second time. Keeping Clean was meant to help him afterwards, right? Anyway, he does the ibogaine and a few days later back on the yam yam visiting the dark master. Half a year later, completely strung out, he goes cold turkey grits his teeth and manages to stop.
Do the potential risks outweigh the benefits? Is the statement “has the cure for addiction been suppressed since the sixties” true? My guess is that the people who have had bad experiences don’t come on this list. I’m saddened that more people haven’t wanted to visit the Bwiti, they need our cash every bit as much as the clinics.
I’ve been off the list for a time busy with a baby, glad to see it’s the same shit. Let the love flow.
Preston, peace out motherfucker… thinking of you brother,
Steve.
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:57:33 -0500
so,
I have some thought after watching Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, and that mainly consists of not only holy shit that was an emotional session watching this flick all by myself trying to ration out the last of my pain meds before seeing my doc on Friday (god this sounds freakin weird, kinda like deja vu) but I kept being reminded of my ibogaine sessions while watching the whole dream session where they wiped his memories. He kept struggling to wake up and fight the eraser people and they kept finding him no matter where he tried to hide his memories of Clementine.
Now granted, I realize fully that lack of sufficiant opiates is making me a bit emotional, but I highly recommend this film to anyone who isn’t afraid to watch a very different kind of film, utterly fucking brilliant but very different. If you’ve not tried something along the lines of ibogaine or massive doses of mushrooms (you know, over 7 grams at a time) or mainlining ketamine, this film will give you somewhat of an idea of some of what I myself felt at times on each and every of those experiences.
Wow, I am wiped out after sitting through this.
I have to admit to feeling a bit confused about the whole ibogaine thing. I felt wonderful and KNEW it was going to fade and many have made their various suggestions, and yet, here I am, right back near pretty freakin much where I started…well, that’s not really quite right, I’m not doing 30 40 dilaudids a day, but I am taking them at a level that my doc is calling “a lot” which is never a good sign. God damn it I’d set up aother session for “before Christmas” but when the provider called saying “we’ve got to set/finalize this up,” I’ve blown off calling him back (and feel very badly about it as I feel he’s a friend of mine) but it’s very hard to call someone like this and say, “no, can’t quite afford it,” or “no, not really quite ready to go again as much as I think I might want to sometimes” etc, etc, you know, all jumbled and confused and not quite sure what I want to do. Or what to think really.
Anyway, the point of this is I still recommend ibogaine to anyone who wants to give it a try, and would probably at some point yes do it again. But watching this film tonight made me realize just how much I really am unsure about subjecting myself to that experience again- even with an insatiable opiate appetite. After what has happened to many (to the best of my very, very limited knowlege “a lot”) in NYC after going through what was a very happy time but now experiencing not quite as happy times I’d imagine, I’m as noted confused. and unsure about stuff. Heck, again, I don’t really know how I feel or really even what I’m trying to say but wanted to vent here and hope you don’t mind.
Carry on, and again, I highly recommend this movie I spoke of above, it’s brilliant, or at least I myself thought.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: Peter Haaf <peter.haaf@schokofabrik-studio.de>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 6, 2005 at 12:31:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Steve,
just had my treeatment, at my home place in germany. It was done by Brian, a remarkable man. Why don`t you
travel to Prague, book a hotel room and have your treatment done in europe, where no legal problems can araise ?
I was on 4mg Subutex the last week before the treatment (8mg before) and now i have no need, no wish to take anything
also i have very little body problems, feels like a floo, nothing serious, nothing to worry about. My mind does not bring
the two things together. I simply feel wonderful, born again.
Peter
Jasen Chamoun schrieb:
Hey Steve,
Your excited are you,..I understand,.I am still excited. 🙂
I did my treatment in Holland, Amsterdam. All I can say
is WOW.
I took Iboga which is the whole plant extract,..and took this
extract with a remarkable woman called Sara.
I hear Ibogaine is also great.
Sara is in Amsterdam,..her basic treatment is 1500 Euro.
It is done in a family environment, which for me was
wholesome and healing.
The price includes home cooked meals and accommodation.
Sara even picks you up from the airport,you are very well
looked after. Sara is a Shaman healer.
The Iboga took away a lot of the underlying reasons to
be anesthetised, it worked beautifully for me.
The first few days of taking iboga I had no withdrawals,
then I started to get up to 15% withdrawals,..however they
were shallow,..not annoying me on an emotional or soul
level. Like I had the flu and new it would pass.
As the saying goes,”this too shall pass”
I was also on Methadone,..which takes longer
to come off.
The Iboga filled me with love untill I overflowed, it
showed me many things,..confirmed things I felt
to be true,..and also showed me situations where I thought I
was so right,..when I was so so wrong.
There are many beautiful people on this list that will assist
you,..if they could they would reach inside you and pull out
all the hurt, blockages and clear your addiction.
Iboga did this for me,.allot of beautiful people put there
hands inside me and pulled out all the sh*t,..90% of it.
I believe the Iboga doesn’t take it all away for a reason,
it leaves a little behind,..I believe,..so you have something
strong to rise up from,..like the yin changing to the yang.
I don’t know about the treatment you speak off, however
I have tried many and this is the only one that has worked for me.
If we talk on the list,it may help others that are thinking of doing this treatment.
I am excited Steve.
with love.Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
*From:* stowe01@comcast.net <mailto:stowe01@comcast.net>
*To:* ibogaine@mindvox.com <mailto:ibogaine@mindvox.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:28 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Jason,
Thanks so much!!! You have to know how excited that I am
getting right now with all this positive feedback. I really want
off this stuff. Even though I believe that I actually use for the
next year without trouble. I dont care. I can easily afford my
habit which is about $100 a day. I am not a veteran drug guy. I
never even tried a drug until 3 years ago and I was 37. Most
people that I read about has had this problrm for years. But I
recognize it has to stop NOW!!! Please tell me as much as you can
about where you did it? How was it? How much did it cost? Did you
have any Withdraws during it? After it? Are you Struggling
now? Jusy anything that you can help me. GOD will bless you for
helping people and I promise I am going to help people. I have
access to money to help promote this more if it helps me the way
that it has you. By the way is this definitely the best way .Is
the Anesthnesia Rapid detox better or worse or what. I know I am
asking alot but if you dont mind I would love your number so that
we could talk(I am not a stalker just very excited) or I can give
you mine. Just let me know .
With Love,
Steve
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] thoughts on ANOTHER movie and ibogaine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 11:09:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston,
I saw that movie when it first came out on DVD, and it
blew my fucking mind too. I LUV Charlie
Kauffman(sp?)- he did Adaptation and Being John
Malkovitch too, which were also incredible flicks.
On the topic of movies, I just saw ‘Maria Full of
Grace’, and I would highly, highly recommend it. It’s
the story of a 17 year old Latina ‘mule’, and some of
the scenes are just crazy, fucking crazy. After
seeing what these young women go through to transport
drugs across international borders, I swore I would
never purchase heroin again.
love Julie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of Topic Discussions – Are they effective for the list?
Date: January 6, 2005 at 10:23:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey list, I have to apologize for my comments the other day. I have been under a little stress lately, and I know that is no excuse, I’m just sayin’. I’m back in paradise in the Catskills, and I sure can use the peace. Lee, I like to read what you post most of the time. I’m not always looking to laugh, just some of the time. I shouldn’t have said anything about the purpose of this list ’cause it ‘aint’ mine to say anything about. I just thank God that the list was here when I needed it, and I was shown the way to the light. You have helped me a lot and made me think more than a few times. I would hope that we all get what we need here. All of us. Hell, as twisted as some of us are here, there is a little of everything discussed, and that’s what I like about it. I guess I was bein’ kind of a dick. Sorry. I was havin’ a bad day. I didn’t have sex that day at ALL. The cops ran out of donuts.I swear it wasn’t my fault. Randy
From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] rapid detox- egad!
Date: January 6, 2005 at 10:18:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This report does not even begin to give an accurate description of what an
addict of a few years of heavy use will endure…
When I was called (once) as a follow-up, after a few minutes they did not
want to talk to me any more and needless to say they never called back.
AGAIN, the most horrible experiance of my 52 years..
bf
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 3:31 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com; drugwar@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] rapid detox- egad!
hi all,
From my friend Alex Burns at Disinfo. I’m reminded once again how little
fun this technique sounds.
From Wired Magazine, available online at:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.01/detox.html?tw=wn_tophead_4
Instant Detox Kick heroin in 24 hours – no willpower, withdrawal, or
preaching required. Call it a cure. Call it junk science. Call it the
one-step program.By Joshua DavisPage 1 of 4 next
Bryan Peterson sat on the toilet in the master bathroom of his Palm
Springs, California, home and tried to find a vein between his
knuckles. It was virgin territory – he had never injected himself in a
spot he couldn’t cover up. But now that he’d been fired from his job
in the estimating department of a construction company, he didn’t care
about covering up anymore. Plus, he couldn’t find a vein in his arms,
which were swollen with pools of pus and heroin. The thin, translucent
blue veins snaking across the back of his hand filled him with joy. He
slid the needle in beside his knucklebone. It hurt. Story Tools
[an error occurred while processing this directive]
Two weeks later, he’d blown out all the tiny veins in his hands and
feet. Unable to absorb all that fluid, they burst, adding more blood
to the already toxic mix festering under his skin. He started plunging
the needle deep into his bicep, shooting heroin directly into the
muscle. The drug seemed to sizzle as he injected it.
Peterson was 36 and had been addicted for three years. Before that, he
was just a normal working guy who liked to play guitar in a local rock
band. Over the past two and a half years, he’d tried to kick his habit
cold turkey three times and attended a few Narcotics Anonymous
meetings. He’d make it through the first step – acknowledging that he
was powerless over his addiction – and that was it. Even with the
group therapy sessions and encouragement from fellow addicts, he
couldn’t stay clean for more than 10 days. The withdrawal pains were
so unbearable, he fantasized about cutting off his legs to stop the
aching. And when the pain subsided for a moment, he was racked with
nausea and diarrhea. His body was holding him hostage: Either take the
drug, it said, or you’ll feel so much pain you’ll want to die.
Then one day Peterson was talking to a friend who mentioned a miracle
treatment gaining popularity in the Los Angeles area. Doctors were
anesthetizing addicts and using an intravenous drug cocktail to induce
an almost instantaneous withdrawal from the heroin. Within 24 hours,
an addict would be pronounced clean and sober. Peterson borrowed the
$15,000 for the procedure from his family, shot up one last time, and
headed for Orange County.
“The 12-step program is an outdated 20th-century concept,” says
Clifford Bernstein, an assistant clinical professor of anesthesiology
at UC Irvine and medical director of the Waismann Institute, the
nation’s leading rapid detox center. “For 70 years, thanks to
Alcoholics Anonymous, addicts have been told they’re suffering from a
spiritual problem. AA assumes that you can talk someone out of their
addiction – which is ridiculous. Addiction is a medical problem. If
somebody has cancer, you don’t try to talk them out of their disease.”
Bernstein’s steeply angled eyebrows make him look surprised and angry.
When he speaks, he’s quiet and measured, but his expression suggests
amazement at the foolish things people believe. His eyebrows arch even
higher when he examines Peterson’s ravaged arms.
The procedure is scheduled to take place in the Garden Grove Hospital
and Medical Center’s intensive care unit, which Peterson now shares
with a burn victim, a barely breathing obese woman, and a screaming
elderly lady with multiple bone fractures. If he weren’t about to
undergo rapid detox, Peterson would be considered too healthy to be
here. It’s been 30 hours since he last shot up, and though he’s well
into the early stages of withdrawal, he’s only suffering from a cold
sweat, a dull ache in his leg, and a mounting panic.
The reaction is normal. Opiate molecules have a chemical structure
similar to endorphins – a natural hormone that regulates pain and
pleasure. When a heroin user shoots up, the opiates in the drug plug
into the nerve receptors normally occupied by endorphins. If opiates
are administered repeatedly, endorphin production drops. The body has
essentially been tricked into short-circuiting the natural
pain-pleasure regulation system.
The addiction turns ugly when the opiate is withheld. Without the
presence of either the opiates or the natural endorphins, an addict’s
pain receptors cease to regulate brain signals. The unimpeded flow of
stimulation causes acute pain while triggering a cascade of reactions
throughout the body: sweating, uncontrollable diarrhea, vomiting, and
severe depression. It’s not fatal – though it may feel like it – and
the addict often relapses just to stop the torment. It usually takes
two to three weeks of suffering before natural endorphin production
resumes and the pleasure-pain equilibrium is restored.
Considering the ordeal, it’s not surprising that quitting cold turkey
works only about 5 percent of the time. To improve on that success
rate, drug treatment experts have traditionally relied on three
approaches: methadone, symptomatic treatment, and Narcotics Anonymous.
Methadone, and its modern substitute buprenorphine, are opiates that
don’t produce a high. An addict taking these drugs has essentially
moved from a risky, illegal dependency to a safer, legal one. But if
they don’t take the methadone, withdrawal begins within hours. For
users who don’t want to be addicted to any substance, treating the
symptoms with a combination of anti-nausea, antidiarrheal, and
sedation drugs can help ease the pain of withdrawal. Finally, the
support of an NA group is usually recommended in conjunction with all
other treatments. These methods have a success rate of 30 percent to
40 percent after a year.
Bernstein says he has a better way to kick opiate addiction – one that
painlessly strips the drug from the brain’s nerve receptors in 20
minutes. The procedure, which relies on a combination of medicines, is
carried out while the patient is anesthetized – a conscious patient
would be in so much agony there would be risk of a heart attack.
According to Bernstein, the roughly 2,500 patients the institute has
treated wake up after an hour and are no longer addicted. Even if an
addict were to shoot up after the procedure, there would be no effect.
The opiate would be blocked from binding with the receptors already
occupied by naltrexone, a drug which must be taken orally for a year.
Bernstein says 65 percent of Waismann patients are still clean after a
year.
Critics dismiss those numbers and denounce the Waismann method as a
scam that takes advantage of desperate addicts. But the American
Society of Addiction Medicine has come out in support of the
treatment, and the society’s former president claims that it’s one of
the most innovative developments in the field since the advent of the
12-step program in the 1930s.
With a recent surge in the abuse of opiate-based painkillers such as
OxyContin, the institute’s business is booming. He has put up
billboards across the country and has explained the procedure on MTV,
CBS, and NBC. So far, he’s drowning out his critics. And, like Lasik
eye surgery in the 1990s, rapid detox is making the transition from
experimental technique to standard procedure offered nationwide.
Competitors have emerged: A rival rapid detox center opened last year
in Los Angeles, and there are centers in Colorado, Florida, Illinois,
Michigan, New Jersey, and New York. Hundreds of addicts are going
through rapid detox each year, and proponents like Bernstein are
positioning the approach as a modern, humane alternative to Narcotics
Anonymous.
Which makes Peterson an early adopter. Now anesthetized, he lies
almost motionless in the intensive care unit. Blue fluid is being
pumped through his veins. Withdrawal has never been so easy. But it’s
also never been so deadly.
In 1988, Austrian physician Norbert Loimer was studying opiate
withdrawal when he discovered that injecting addicts with naloxone –
the intravenous form of the opiate blocker naltrexone – achieved what
he referred to as “acute detoxification.” It was accompanied by
intense suffering, which he tried to alleviate by sedating the
patients. It worked. His experimental process condensed the typical
weeks-long withdrawal into a matter of days. Though he believed that
the procedure was too dangerous to be offered to the public, he
published his findings in a medical journal, where they were read with
interest by addiction medicine specialists.
One of them was Lance Gooberman, an American MD who concluded that the
danger of Loimer’s rapid detox method was outweighed by the fact that
addicts were dying on the streets every day. Gooberman knew the risks
of drug dependence first hand – he was an alcoholic and had been
hooked on methamphetamines before he began treating other addicts. He
understood that many junkies wouldn’t even consider kicking –
conventional detox scared them too much. A faster, less painful
withdrawal could mean the difference between going into treatment and
death for many. So in 1994 Gooberman took Loimer’s experimental work
and turned it into a business.
Over the next five years, Gooberman performed more than 2,300 rapid
detoxifications in his offices in Philadelphia and southern New
Jersey. According to county coroners, seven of those addicts died of
complications relating to the procedure. That was enough for David
Samson, New Jersey’s attorney general, to file civil charges against
Gooberman in October 1999, accusing him of “repeated gross
malpractice, professional negligence, professional incompetence, and
professional misconduct.” Samson contended that rapid detox was an
unproven treatment that put too much strain on patients’ bodies. It
just wasn’t reasonable, the complaint explained, to assume that a
two-week ordeal could be safely condensed into an hour. He argued that
Gooberman was promising more than he could deliver and creating “a
clear and imminent danger to the public’s health, safety, and
welfare.”
While Gooberman was building his practice on the East Coast, Bernstein
was recruited to head up the Waismann Institute in Beverly Hills,
California. The institute was founded by Clare Waismann, a Brazilian
businesswoman who realized that rapid detox addressed an unmet need.
The market was crowded with 12-step programs and methadone clinics,
but all of them required addicts to stick with a program. Rapid detox
largely removed willpower from the experience – it was a concept
Waismann thought would make her institute the dominant detox facility
on the West Coast and, eventually, in the nation.
Bernstein was an ideal partner. He had attended a respected medical
school (Rutgers), understood opiate addiction, and was a med school
faculty member. He was energetic, believed in the treatment, and was
ready to devote his credentials and time to winning mainstream
acceptance for it.
But the headlines generated by the case against Gooberman weren’t
making it easy. Gooberman was on trial, but the defendant in the
three-year case was really the procedure itself. Most of the testimony
concerned the alleged dangers and benefits of rapid detox. And since
the FDA does not regulate medical procedures, the case became a battle
over the legitimacy of the treatment.
Samson laid out his argument clearly, beginning with the obvious:
Opiate withdrawal is a nonlethal condition, but seven of Gooberman’s
patients had died. Anesthesia alone carries a small risk of death.
When coupled with an infusion of novel drugs, there’s no telling how
dangerous it can be, particularly since there have been no large-scale
scientific studies on the procedure’s effectiveness. In essence, he
was saying that the cure was worse than the disease.
David Smith, a leading addiction doctor and former president of the
American Society of Addiction Medicine, disagreed. Smith testified
that rapid detox was the procedure of last resort for addicts who had
tried everything else and failed. Many of them just couldn’t withstand
the pain of withdrawal. Gooberman offered them another option. His
patients came from a population whose health was already compromised –
just treating them was a risk. But the fact that he tried to help them
didn’t mean he was responsible for their deaths. “How many would have
died if they’d stayed on drugs?” Smith asks. “Treatment is not a
threat to public health, and the attorney general did a disservice by
trying to criminalize it.”
The judge in the case agreed that Samson was overreaching. In a
353-page opinion handed down at the end of 2002, he concluded there
was no evidence that rapid detox “caused or contributed” to the seven
deaths. He called the treatment “potentially promising” – but rebuked
Gooberman for a variety of medical oversights, fined him $11,500, and
revoked his license for six months. The attorney general appealed, and
Gooberman soon settled the case out of court. He agreed to pay
$375,500 to the state and $30,000 to the families of the deceased. He
also agreed to have his medical license revoked for two years. His
reputation was damaged beyond repair. No hospital would hire him, and
he disappeared from public view.
That left one man in the media spotlight – just in time for a surge in
demand. Bernstein made it through rapid detox’s early years without a
fatality, and now OxyContin abuse was skyrocketing. The treatment had
been legally vindicated, and Bernstein’s main competitor on the
national stage couldn’t practice medicine anymore.
Bernstein smiles as the cameraman holds the shot. It’s early in 2001,
and the Gooberman case rages on. 48 Hours, the CBS newsmagazine show,
is documenting the plight of Troy Swett, a 22-year-old OxyContin
addict. Swett has just arrived at the hospital in Orange County to be
detoxed, and Bernstein is ready for his close-up. “Congratulations for
coming,” Bernstein says, shaking Swett’s hand. “It’s the first step.”
In a traditional 12-step program, the first step is to admit
powerlessness over the addiction. Now, according to Bernstein, the
first step is arriving at the Waismann Institute. This kind of
national exposure is important for Bernstein. It’s an opportunity to
continue redefining how the public thinks about addiction.
During the segment, Bernstein notes that 90 to 95 percent of his
patients are clean after a month. The on-air reporter asks about
long-term effectiveness, to which Bernstein replies, “People walk out
of here, their withdrawal is finished, and they’re not craving.” And
the segment moves on.
But the numbers deserve more scrutiny. They are compiled by the
Waismann staff without independent confirmation. They are also based
solely on follow-up phone calls, and there’s no guarantee that
everyone is called. (At least one Waismann client, OxyContin addict
Tim Lincoln, says he was never contacted after he returned home to
Texas. He relapsed after two months.) Bernstein doesn’t defend the
absolute accuracy of the success rate stats. “Maybe it’s a little
off,” he says, “but it’s still much, much higher than methadone or
Narcotics Anonymous programs.”
Even substantiated statistics wouldn’t necessarily prove that rapid
detox is better than conventional treatments. The type of patients who
come to the Waismann Institute tend to have more family and social
support and can afford the $15,000 fee. They are more likely to get
clean in any kind of treatment program. And there’s another twist:
Bernstein says that about 70 percent of his patients are addicted to
prescription painkillers. He admits that the success rate for heroin
addicts is probably lower, but he doesn’t know the exact figure.
Still, Waismann advertises a single success rate – 65 percent – and is
therefore luring heroin abusers with a potentially exaggerated
promise.
Bernstein cites independent studies to buttress his claims. A study
from the University of Miami School of Medicine in 2000 reports a 55
percent abstinence rate six months after rapid detoxification. A
German clinical investigation in 2000 found a 68 percent success rate
at 12 months. But neither study compared the procedure with a control
group, so it’s impossible to state whether patients would have been
more or less successful with another treatment.
Herbert Kleber, director of the division on substance abuse at
Columbia University, takes issue with Bernstein’s claims. “I challenge
him to take 100 addicts off the street and show a 65 percent success
rate,” Kleber says. “He won’t be able to.”
Kleber has just completed the largest scientific study of rapid detox
to date, and his numbers don’t come close to matching Bernstein’s.
Using a $1 million grant from the National Institute on Drug Abuse,
Kleber followed 105 abusers through rapid detox and two other
treatments. He found that after three months, rapid detox fared no
better than other methods.
But even if it doesn’t work as advertised, it’s still a useful
treatment that can seem like a miracle cure. Even Tim Lincoln, the
relapsed OxyContin addict from Texas, grudgingly admits it served a
purpose. Before he went to see Bernstein, he tried to quit twice, only
to suffer a week of diarrhea, nausea, and severe depression each time.
Though he didn’t feel good after rapid detox, he didn’t have any
diarrhea or nausea. Essentially, Bernstein’s treatment allowed him to
skip that first and most painful week of the process.
It was an illusory victory – Lincoln relapsed within two months. He
eventually found the willpower to suffer through the withdrawal on his
own and, with the help of Narcotics Anonymous, is clean now. But for
addicts who cannot make it through that first week of withdrawal any
other way, the $15,000 procedure may be their only hope. And for white
collar addicts – business executives, doctors, celebrities, sports
stars – the quick fix promised by rapid detox is a powerful draw.
Amanda, a busy Northern California medical-supply sales rep who asked
that her real name not be used, was popping 20 Vicodins a day but
didn’t want to take a lot of time to deal with her addiction. Before
she found out about Waismann, she was preparing for a 30-day detox in
Malibu. Bernstein, she says, cured her in a weekend: “They put me
under Friday. I was a little groggy Saturday. By Sunday, I was ready
to get back to work. And I had no desire for the pills.”
While criticism from within the medical community hasn’t influenced
Bernstein, competition may. In November, Chicago-based Midwest Rapid
Opiate Detoxification Specialists opened a center in LA. Jake Epperly,
the clinical director, distinguishes his method from the Waismann
practice by emphasizing “the absolute necessity of a continuing care
recovery program” based on Narcotics Anonymous. Epperly runs his own
halfway house in Chicago and markets his group as the only rapid detox
service in the US with a 28-day inpatient aftercare program.
Of course, closely monitoring a former user’s sobriety is a pillar of
NA. Addicts are expected to attend 90 meetings in 90 days and speak
regularly with a sponsor who has been off drugs for an extended
period.
Bernstein has never offered a robust aftercare program. He trusts in
the science, not the therapy. At the Waismann Institute, the $15,000
fee includes 6 to 12 follow-up phone calls from a psychologist.
Bernstein is particularly adamant that the Narcotics Anonymous
approach is counterproductive. “The last thing I want is for my
patients to sit in a room with a bunch of other addicts and spend all
their time talking about drugs,” he says. “It’s like a cult. Plus,
that’s where all the drug dealers hang out.”
But Bernstein is adapting. He says that he is in the process of
creating his own Waismann-branded luxury recovery center near a beach
in Orange County, where addicts can stay after detox. According to
Bernstein, it’ll be nicer and more effective than Epperly’s program.
Rather than attend group meetings, patients will be encouraged to play
golf and take walks on the beach.
Epperly scoffs at the approach. “Golfing won’t keep them off drugs,”
he says. “Just because their bodies don’t crave it doesn’t mean they
psychologically don’t want it.”
Bryan Peterson is sitting in the backyard of his parents’ suburban
home in the hills outside Las Vegas. It has been two weeks since he
underwent rapid detox. The swelling in his extremities has gone down,
and the scabs on his arms have fallen off. There are dark bags under
his eyes, and his skin looks like yellowed parchment. But he manages a
meager smile. For the first time in two years, he’s been sober for
more than a few days. “Everything just looks a little greener,” he
says, staring out at the mostly gray desert.
Then he taps his fingers on the glass table in front of him. He lights
a cigarette. He’s got nothing to do. His next scheduled phone
conversation with the Waismann psychologist isn’t for three days.
Peterson admits that he opened the yellow pages a couple of days ago
and found the address of a local methadone clinic. “It’s the easiest
place to score,” he says. But he didn’t go, and he says that he feels
better every day. By mid-November, he was still clean and he moved
with his fiancée to Glasgow, Kentucky. It’s a dry town – no alcohol is
sold within city limits – and it’s supposed to be very green.
Contributing editor Joshua Davis (jd@wiredmag.com) wrote about
supercoca in issue 12.11.
Copyright (C) 1993-99 The Conde Nast Publications Inc. All rights
reserved.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%]
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] [ot] Time in the woods
Date: January 6, 2005 at 7:22:55 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Guys,
Just a quick post.
I am going to stay off the list for a little while as I need to take some time to absorb a lot of stuff going on with me. It’s all good. The last few weeks have been very powerful for me and its not just about the list – which by the way is teaching me a thing or two. I feel a lot of changes going on. Pretty much how the eboga process (with or without tm 🙂 ) or whatever you want to call it works.
Love & Light,
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 3:49:23 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Film sounds good, is it an Independent? Will have to keep an eye out for it.
Also, has anyone in the USA seen the movie “INDIGO”? I would advise anyone
interested or into spiritual stuff/indigo children to go see it. Has got
Donald Neal Walsche (sp?) who had something to do with What Dreams May
Come…..
We have to wait til it gets here cos it’s not a major release type movie.
Ah well, all in good time ay?
Kirk
PS I know what you mean about emotions/lack of opiates!! I went to see the
South Park movie when I was withdrawing from Methadone (about week two…)
and I darn near wet myself laughing so hard! Was a weird sensation,
withdrawal symptoms, feeling grotty as, but high on laughter!
—–Original Message—–
From: Marcus [mailto:aktionman@phantom.com]
Sent: Thursday, 6 January 2005 7:26 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
preston……
your post kinda hit me where i live. i took ibo for a 25yr opiate
dependence 7 yrs ago this march 28. i was able to stay offa dope except
for a handful of times the first 4 yrs. i got my life pretty much on
track. it has stayed that way even with some personal setbacks. i’ve
been reading the list since before i took ibo, so i kinda know most of
the rogues gallery here…..and can relate.
like you, i too have pain probs i have to deal with. however i was
determind to not go back to coping & everything that it involves. i
sought out a pain mgmt. speacialist, who turned out to be very
understanding. so after 2 & 1/2 yrs. i’ve been on oxys (80mgs 3x
daily). i seem to be ok with this. i don’t escalate too much……altho
i started out on 20mgs. but with my history, this is ok.
i even have an emergency dose of ibo…….should things get outta hand.
i’ve had this sitting for close to 3 yrs. every so often i get
depressed and try to find a 4-5 day window……..but by the time i do,
i’m not in the shithouse anymore.
the insight i gained from my ibo trip has long since faded in
intensity……but sumwhere the lessons have stayed.
i don’t know where i’m goin’ with this………’cept i feel ya,
bro!!!!
On 1/6/2005, “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
so,
I have some thought after watching Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind,
and that mainly consists of not only holy shit that was an emotional
session
watching this flick all by myself trying to ration out the last of my pain
meds before seeing my doc on Friday (god this sounds freakin weird, kinda
like deja vu) but I kept being reminded of my ibogaine sessions while
watching the whole dream session where they wiped his memories. He kept
struggling to wake up and fight the eraser people and they kept finding him
no matter where he tried to hide his memories of Clementine.
Now granted, I realize fully that lack of sufficiant opiates is making
me a bit emotional, but I highly recommend this film to anyone who isn’t
afraid to watch a very different kind of film, utterly fucking brilliant
but
very different. If you’ve not tried something along the lines of ibogaine
or
massive doses of mushrooms (you know, over 7 grams at a time) or mainlining
ketamine, this film will give you somewhat of an idea of some of what I
myself felt at times on each and every of those experiences.
Wow, I am wiped out after sitting through this.
I have to admit to feeling a bit confused about the whole ibogaine
thing. I felt wonderful and KNEW it was going to fade and many have made
their various suggestions, and yet, here I am, right back near pretty
freakin much where I started…well, that’s not really quite right, I’m not
doing 30 40 dilaudids a day, but I am taking them at a level that my doc is
calling “a lot” which is never a good sign. God damn it I’d set up aother
session for “before Christmas” but when the provider called saying “we’ve
got to set/finalize this up,” I’ve blown off calling him back (and feel
very
badly about it as I feel he’s a friend of mine) but it’s very hard to call
someone like this and say, “no, can’t quite afford it,” or “no, not really
quite ready to go again as much as I think I might want to sometimes” etc,
etc, you know, all jumbled and confused and not quite sure what I want to
do. Or what to think really.
Anyway, the point of this is I still recommend ibogaine to anyone who
wants to give it a try, and would probably at some point yes do it again.
But watching this film tonight made me realize just how much I really am
unsure about subjecting myself to that experience again- even with an
insatiable opiate appetite. After what has happened to many (to the best of
my very, very limited knowlege “a lot”) in NYC after going through what was
a very happy time but now experiencing not quite as happy times I’d
imagine,
I’m as noted confused. and unsure about stuff. Heck, again, I don’t really
know how I feel or really even what I’m trying to say but wanted to vent
here and hope you don’t mind.
Carry on, and again, I highly recommend this movie I spoke of above,
it’s brilliant, or at least I myself thought.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
p,l,&u
marcus
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
—
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 – Release Date: 12/26/2004
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Marcus <aktionman@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 6, 2005 at 1:25:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
preston……
your post kinda hit me where i live. i took ibo for a 25yr opiate
dependence 7 yrs ago this march 28. i was able to stay offa dope except
for a handful of times the first 4 yrs. i got my life pretty much on
track. it has stayed that way even with some personal setbacks. i’ve
been reading the list since before i took ibo, so i kinda know most of
the rogues gallery here…..and can relate.
like you, i too have pain probs i have to deal with. however i was
determind to not go back to coping & everything that it involves. i
sought out a pain mgmt. speacialist, who turned out to be very
understanding. so after 2 & 1/2 yrs. i’ve been on oxys (80mgs 3x
daily). i seem to be ok with this. i don’t escalate too much……altho
i started out on 20mgs. but with my history, this is ok.
i even have an emergency dose of ibo…….should things get outta hand.
i’ve had this sitting for close to 3 yrs. every so often i get
depressed and try to find a 4-5 day window……..but by the time i do,
i’m not in the shithouse anymore.
the insight i gained from my ibo trip has long since faded in
intensity……but sumwhere the lessons have stayed.
i don’t know where i’m goin’ with this………’cept i feel ya,
bro!!!!
On 1/6/2005, “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
so,
I have some thought after watching Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind,
and that mainly consists of not only holy shit that was an emotional session
watching this flick all by myself trying to ration out the last of my pain
meds before seeing my doc on Friday (god this sounds freakin weird, kinda
like deja vu) but I kept being reminded of my ibogaine sessions while
watching the whole dream session where they wiped his memories. He kept
struggling to wake up and fight the eraser people and they kept finding him
no matter where he tried to hide his memories of Clementine.
Now granted, I realize fully that lack of sufficiant opiates is making
me a bit emotional, but I highly recommend this film to anyone who isn’t
afraid to watch a very different kind of film, utterly fucking brilliant but
very different. If you’ve not tried something along the lines of ibogaine or
massive doses of mushrooms (you know, over 7 grams at a time) or mainlining
ketamine, this film will give you somewhat of an idea of some of what I
myself felt at times on each and every of those experiences.
Wow, I am wiped out after sitting through this.
I have to admit to feeling a bit confused about the whole ibogaine
thing. I felt wonderful and KNEW it was going to fade and many have made
their various suggestions, and yet, here I am, right back near pretty
freakin much where I started…well, that’s not really quite right, I’m not
doing 30 40 dilaudids a day, but I am taking them at a level that my doc is
calling “a lot” which is never a good sign. God damn it I’d set up aother
session for “before Christmas” but when the provider called saying “we’ve
got to set/finalize this up,” I’ve blown off calling him back (and feel very
badly about it as I feel he’s a friend of mine) but it’s very hard to call
someone like this and say, “no, can’t quite afford it,” or “no, not really
quite ready to go again as much as I think I might want to sometimes” etc,
etc, you know, all jumbled and confused and not quite sure what I want to
do. Or what to think really.
Anyway, the point of this is I still recommend ibogaine to anyone who
wants to give it a try, and would probably at some point yes do it again.
But watching this film tonight made me realize just how much I really am
unsure about subjecting myself to that experience again- even with an
insatiable opiate appetite. After what has happened to many (to the best of
my very, very limited knowlege “a lot”) in NYC after going through what was
a very happy time but now experiencing not quite as happy times I’d imagine,
I’m as noted confused. and unsure about stuff. Heck, again, I don’t really
know how I feel or really even what I’m trying to say but wanted to vent
here and hope you don’t mind.
Carry on, and again, I highly recommend this movie I spoke of above,
it’s brilliant, or at least I myself thought.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
p,l,&u
marcus
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] thoughts on a movie and ibogaine
Date: January 5, 2005 at 10:57:33 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
so,
I have some thought after watching Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, and that mainly consists of not only holy shit that was an emotional session watching this flick all by myself trying to ration out the last of my pain meds before seeing my doc on Friday (god this sounds freakin weird, kinda like deja vu) but I kept being reminded of my ibogaine sessions while watching the whole dream session where they wiped his memories. He kept struggling to wake up and fight the eraser people and they kept finding him no matter where he tried to hide his memories of Clementine.
Now granted, I realize fully that lack of sufficiant opiates is making me a bit emotional, but I highly recommend this film to anyone who isn’t afraid to watch a very different kind of film, utterly fucking brilliant but very different. If you’ve not tried something along the lines of ibogaine or massive doses of mushrooms (you know, over 7 grams at a time) or mainlining ketamine, this film will give you somewhat of an idea of some of what I myself felt at times on each and every of those experiences.
Wow, I am wiped out after sitting through this.
I have to admit to feeling a bit confused about the whole ibogaine thing. I felt wonderful and KNEW it was going to fade and many have made their various suggestions, and yet, here I am, right back near pretty freakin much where I started…well, that’s not really quite right, I’m not doing 30 40 dilaudids a day, but I am taking them at a level that my doc is calling “a lot” which is never a good sign. God damn it I’d set up aother session for “before Christmas” but when the provider called saying “we’ve got to set/finalize this up,” I’ve blown off calling him back (and feel very badly about it as I feel he’s a friend of mine) but it’s very hard to call someone like this and say, “no, can’t quite afford it,” or “no, not really quite ready to go again as much as I think I might want to sometimes” etc, etc, you know, all jumbled and confused and not quite sure what I want to do. Or what to think really.
Anyway, the point of this is I still recommend ibogaine to anyone who wants to give it a try, and would probably at some point yes do it again. But watching this film tonight made me realize just how much I really am unsure about subjecting myself to that experience again- even with an insatiable opiate appetite. After what has happened to many (to the best of my very, very limited knowlege “a lot”) in NYC after going through what was a very happy time but now experiencing not quite as happy times I’d imagine, I’m as noted confused. and unsure about stuff. Heck, again, I don’t really know how I feel or really even what I’m trying to say but wanted to vent here and hope you don’t mind.
Carry on, and again, I highly recommend this movie I spoke of above, it’s brilliant, or at least I myself thought.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Apologies
Date: January 5, 2005 at 7:37:35 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Kirsty I totally agree with you, big hug from me too ( Lee).
Sara
Van: Kirsty Sutherland [mailto:captkirk@kol.co.nz]
Verzonden: donderdag 6 januari 2005 0:32
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: RE: [Ibogaine] Apologies
Big hugs to ya ((Lee))
You don’t have to explain yourself.
Would anyone on this list who considers themselves to be perfect in every way PLEASE step forward so we may kiss your feet?
Thank you muchly
Kirsty Dawn ;o)
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, 5 January 2005 11:27 p.m.
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Apologies
Dear List,
I want to apologise for my last few posts, in particular to Carla. I know you were only trying to help. I am afraid I lost the thread of myself.
If it helps to understand, in the last week I have fully relived deeply repressed stuff about repeated abuse as a boy by a female and I am afraid that has spilled over onto the list. It seems that my Shadow came out of the bag. Had to happen. I am only sorry that it has not been an entirely positive esperience.
On top of that my mother is not well and that has been upsetting me.
Many apologies once again.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
— Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 – Release Date: 12/28/2004
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Apologies
Date: January 5, 2005 at 6:31:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Big hugs to ya ((Lee))
You don’t have to explain yourself.
Would anyone on this list who considers themselves to be perfect in every way PLEASE step forward so we may kiss your feet?
Thank you muchly
Kirsty Dawn ;o)
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, 5 January 2005 11:27 p.m.
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Apologies
Dear List,
I want to apologise for my last few posts, in particular to Carla. I know you were only trying to help. I am afraid I lost the thread of myself.
If it helps to understand, in the last week I have fully relived deeply repressed stuff about repeated abuse as a boy by a female and I am afraid that has spilled over onto the list. It seems that my Shadow came out of the bag. Had to happen. I am only sorry that it has not been an entirely positive esperience.
On top of that my mother is not well and that has been upsetting me.
Many apologies once again.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] rapid detox- egad!
Date: January 5, 2005 at 6:30:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi all,
From my friend Alex Burns at Disinfo. I’m reminded once again how little fun this technique sounds.
From Wired Magazine, available online at:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.01/detox.html?tw=wn_tophead_4
Instant Detox Kick heroin in 24 hours – no willpower, withdrawal, or
preaching required. Call it a cure. Call it junk science. Call it the
one-step program.By Joshua DavisPage 1 of 4 next
Bryan Peterson sat on the toilet in the master bathroom of his Palm
Springs, California, home and tried to find a vein between his
knuckles. It was virgin territory – he had never injected himself in a
spot he couldn’t cover up. But now that he’d been fired from his job
in the estimating department of a construction company, he didn’t care
about covering up anymore. Plus, he couldn’t find a vein in his arms,
which were swollen with pools of pus and heroin. The thin, translucent
blue veins snaking across the back of his hand filled him with joy. He
slid the needle in beside his knucklebone. It hurt. Story Tools
[an error occurred while processing this directive]
Two weeks later, he’d blown out all the tiny veins in his hands and
feet. Unable to absorb all that fluid, they burst, adding more blood
to the already toxic mix festering under his skin. He started plunging
the needle deep into his bicep, shooting heroin directly into the
muscle. The drug seemed to sizzle as he injected it.
Peterson was 36 and had been addicted for three years. Before that, he
was just a normal working guy who liked to play guitar in a local rock
band. Over the past two and a half years, he’d tried to kick his habit
cold turkey three times and attended a few Narcotics Anonymous
meetings. He’d make it through the first step – acknowledging that he
was powerless over his addiction – and that was it. Even with the
group therapy sessions and encouragement from fellow addicts, he
couldn’t stay clean for more than 10 days. The withdrawal pains were
so unbearable, he fantasized about cutting off his legs to stop the
aching. And when the pain subsided for a moment, he was racked with
nausea and diarrhea. His body was holding him hostage: Either take the
drug, it said, or you’ll feel so much pain you’ll want to die.
Then one day Peterson was talking to a friend who mentioned a miracle
treatment gaining popularity in the Los Angeles area. Doctors were
anesthetizing addicts and using an intravenous drug cocktail to induce
an almost instantaneous withdrawal from the heroin. Within 24 hours,
an addict would be pronounced clean and sober. Peterson borrowed the
$15,000 for the procedure from his family, shot up one last time, and
headed for Orange County.
“The 12-step program is an outdated 20th-century concept,” says
Clifford Bernstein, an assistant clinical professor of anesthesiology
at UC Irvine and medical director of the Waismann Institute, the
nation’s leading rapid detox center. “For 70 years, thanks to
Alcoholics Anonymous, addicts have been told they’re suffering from a
spiritual problem. AA assumes that you can talk someone out of their
addiction – which is ridiculous. Addiction is a medical problem. If
somebody has cancer, you don’t try to talk them out of their disease.”
Bernstein’s steeply angled eyebrows make him look surprised and angry.
When he speaks, he’s quiet and measured, but his expression suggests
amazement at the foolish things people believe. His eyebrows arch even
higher when he examines Peterson’s ravaged arms.
The procedure is scheduled to take place in the Garden Grove Hospital
and Medical Center’s intensive care unit, which Peterson now shares
with a burn victim, a barely breathing obese woman, and a screaming
elderly lady with multiple bone fractures. If he weren’t about to
undergo rapid detox, Peterson would be considered too healthy to be
here. It’s been 30 hours since he last shot up, and though he’s well
into the early stages of withdrawal, he’s only suffering from a cold
sweat, a dull ache in his leg, and a mounting panic.
The reaction is normal. Opiate molecules have a chemical structure
similar to endorphins – a natural hormone that regulates pain and
pleasure. When a heroin user shoots up, the opiates in the drug plug
into the nerve receptors normally occupied by endorphins. If opiates
are administered repeatedly, endorphin production drops. The body has
essentially been tricked into short-circuiting the natural
pain-pleasure regulation system.
The addiction turns ugly when the opiate is withheld. Without the
presence of either the opiates or the natural endorphins, an addict’s
pain receptors cease to regulate brain signals. The unimpeded flow of
stimulation causes acute pain while triggering a cascade of reactions
throughout the body: sweating, uncontrollable diarrhea, vomiting, and
severe depression. It’s not fatal – though it may feel like it – and
the addict often relapses just to stop the torment. It usually takes
two to three weeks of suffering before natural endorphin production
resumes and the pleasure-pain equilibrium is restored.
Considering the ordeal, it’s not surprising that quitting cold turkey
works only about 5 percent of the time. To improve on that success
rate, drug treatment experts have traditionally relied on three
approaches: methadone, symptomatic treatment, and Narcotics Anonymous.
Methadone, and its modern substitute buprenorphine, are opiates that
don’t produce a high. An addict taking these drugs has essentially
moved from a risky, illegal dependency to a safer, legal one. But if
they don’t take the methadone, withdrawal begins within hours. For
users who don’t want to be addicted to any substance, treating the
symptoms with a combination of anti-nausea, antidiarrheal, and
sedation drugs can help ease the pain of withdrawal. Finally, the
support of an NA group is usually recommended in conjunction with all
other treatments. These methods have a success rate of 30 percent to
40 percent after a year.
Bernstein says he has a better way to kick opiate addiction – one that
painlessly strips the drug from the brain’s nerve receptors in 20
minutes. The procedure, which relies on a combination of medicines, is
carried out while the patient is anesthetized – a conscious patient
would be in so much agony there would be risk of a heart attack.
According to Bernstein, the roughly 2,500 patients the institute has
treated wake up after an hour and are no longer addicted. Even if an
addict were to shoot up after the procedure, there would be no effect.
The opiate would be blocked from binding with the receptors already
occupied by naltrexone, a drug which must be taken orally for a year.
Bernstein says 65 percent of Waismann patients are still clean after a
year.
Critics dismiss those numbers and denounce the Waismann method as a
scam that takes advantage of desperate addicts. But the American
Society of Addiction Medicine has come out in support of the
treatment, and the society’s former president claims that it’s one of
the most innovative developments in the field since the advent of the
12-step program in the 1930s.
With a recent surge in the abuse of opiate-based painkillers such as
OxyContin, the institute’s business is booming. He has put up
billboards across the country and has explained the procedure on MTV,
CBS, and NBC. So far, he’s drowning out his critics. And, like Lasik
eye surgery in the 1990s, rapid detox is making the transition from
experimental technique to standard procedure offered nationwide.
Competitors have emerged: A rival rapid detox center opened last year
in Los Angeles, and there are centers in Colorado, Florida, Illinois,
Michigan, New Jersey, and New York. Hundreds of addicts are going
through rapid detox each year, and proponents like Bernstein are
positioning the approach as a modern, humane alternative to Narcotics
Anonymous.
Which makes Peterson an early adopter. Now anesthetized, he lies
almost motionless in the intensive care unit. Blue fluid is being
pumped through his veins. Withdrawal has never been so easy. But it’s
also never been so deadly.
In 1988, Austrian physician Norbert Loimer was studying opiate
withdrawal when he discovered that injecting addicts with naloxone –
the intravenous form of the opiate blocker naltrexone – achieved what
he referred to as “acute detoxification.” It was accompanied by
intense suffering, which he tried to alleviate by sedating the
patients. It worked. His experimental process condensed the typical
weeks-long withdrawal into a matter of days. Though he believed that
the procedure was too dangerous to be offered to the public, he
published his findings in a medical journal, where they were read with
interest by addiction medicine specialists.
One of them was Lance Gooberman, an American MD who concluded that the
danger of Loimer’s rapid detox method was outweighed by the fact that
addicts were dying on the streets every day. Gooberman knew the risks
of drug dependence first hand – he was an alcoholic and had been
hooked on methamphetamines before he began treating other addicts. He
understood that many junkies wouldn’t even consider kicking –
conventional detox scared them too much. A faster, less painful
withdrawal could mean the difference between going into treatment and
death for many. So in 1994 Gooberman took Loimer’s experimental work
and turned it into a business.
Over the next five years, Gooberman performed more than 2,300 rapid
detoxifications in his offices in Philadelphia and southern New
Jersey. According to county coroners, seven of those addicts died of
complications relating to the procedure. That was enough for David
Samson, New Jersey’s attorney general, to file civil charges against
Gooberman in October 1999, accusing him of “repeated gross
malpractice, professional negligence, professional incompetence, and
professional misconduct.” Samson contended that rapid detox was an
unproven treatment that put too much strain on patients’ bodies. It
just wasn’t reasonable, the complaint explained, to assume that a
two-week ordeal could be safely condensed into an hour. He argued that
Gooberman was promising more than he could deliver and creating “a
clear and imminent danger to the public’s health, safety, and
welfare.”
While Gooberman was building his practice on the East Coast, Bernstein
was recruited to head up the Waismann Institute in Beverly Hills,
California. The institute was founded by Clare Waismann, a Brazilian
businesswoman who realized that rapid detox addressed an unmet need.
The market was crowded with 12-step programs and methadone clinics,
but all of them required addicts to stick with a program. Rapid detox
largely removed willpower from the experience – it was a concept
Waismann thought would make her institute the dominant detox facility
on the West Coast and, eventually, in the nation.
Bernstein was an ideal partner. He had attended a respected medical
school (Rutgers), understood opiate addiction, and was a med school
faculty member. He was energetic, believed in the treatment, and was
ready to devote his credentials and time to winning mainstream
acceptance for it.
But the headlines generated by the case against Gooberman weren’t
making it easy. Gooberman was on trial, but the defendant in the
three-year case was really the procedure itself. Most of the testimony
concerned the alleged dangers and benefits of rapid detox. And since
the FDA does not regulate medical procedures, the case became a battle
over the legitimacy of the treatment.
Samson laid out his argument clearly, beginning with the obvious:
Opiate withdrawal is a nonlethal condition, but seven of Gooberman’s
patients had died. Anesthesia alone carries a small risk of death.
When coupled with an infusion of novel drugs, there’s no telling how
dangerous it can be, particularly since there have been no large-scale
scientific studies on the procedure’s effectiveness. In essence, he
was saying that the cure was worse than the disease.
David Smith, a leading addiction doctor and former president of the
American Society of Addiction Medicine, disagreed. Smith testified
that rapid detox was the procedure of last resort for addicts who had
tried everything else and failed. Many of them just couldn’t withstand
the pain of withdrawal. Gooberman offered them another option. His
patients came from a population whose health was already compromised –
just treating them was a risk. But the fact that he tried to help them
didn’t mean he was responsible for their deaths. “How many would have
died if they’d stayed on drugs?” Smith asks. “Treatment is not a
threat to public health, and the attorney general did a disservice by
trying to criminalize it.”
The judge in the case agreed that Samson was overreaching. In a
353-page opinion handed down at the end of 2002, he concluded there
was no evidence that rapid detox “caused or contributed” to the seven
deaths. He called the treatment “potentially promising” – but rebuked
Gooberman for a variety of medical oversights, fined him $11,500, and
revoked his license for six months. The attorney general appealed, and
Gooberman soon settled the case out of court. He agreed to pay
$375,500 to the state and $30,000 to the families of the deceased. He
also agreed to have his medical license revoked for two years. His
reputation was damaged beyond repair. No hospital would hire him, and
he disappeared from public view.
That left one man in the media spotlight – just in time for a surge in
demand. Bernstein made it through rapid detox’s early years without a
fatality, and now OxyContin abuse was skyrocketing. The treatment had
been legally vindicated, and Bernstein’s main competitor on the
national stage couldn’t practice medicine anymore.
Bernstein smiles as the cameraman holds the shot. It’s early in 2001,
and the Gooberman case rages on. 48 Hours, the CBS newsmagazine show,
is documenting the plight of Troy Swett, a 22-year-old OxyContin
addict. Swett has just arrived at the hospital in Orange County to be
detoxed, and Bernstein is ready for his close-up. “Congratulations for
coming,” Bernstein says, shaking Swett’s hand. “It’s the first step.”
In a traditional 12-step program, the first step is to admit
powerlessness over the addiction. Now, according to Bernstein, the
first step is arriving at the Waismann Institute. This kind of
national exposure is important for Bernstein. It’s an opportunity to
continue redefining how the public thinks about addiction.
During the segment, Bernstein notes that 90 to 95 percent of his
patients are clean after a month. The on-air reporter asks about
long-term effectiveness, to which Bernstein replies, “People walk out
of here, their withdrawal is finished, and they’re not craving.” And
the segment moves on.
But the numbers deserve more scrutiny. They are compiled by the
Waismann staff without independent confirmation. They are also based
solely on follow-up phone calls, and there’s no guarantee that
everyone is called. (At least one Waismann client, OxyContin addict
Tim Lincoln, says he was never contacted after he returned home to
Texas. He relapsed after two months.) Bernstein doesn’t defend the
absolute accuracy of the success rate stats. “Maybe it’s a little
off,” he says, “but it’s still much, much higher than methadone or
Narcotics Anonymous programs.”
Even substantiated statistics wouldn’t necessarily prove that rapid
detox is better than conventional treatments. The type of patients who
come to the Waismann Institute tend to have more family and social
support and can afford the $15,000 fee. They are more likely to get
clean in any kind of treatment program. And there’s another twist:
Bernstein says that about 70 percent of his patients are addicted to
prescription painkillers. He admits that the success rate for heroin
addicts is probably lower, but he doesn’t know the exact figure.
Still, Waismann advertises a single success rate – 65 percent – and is
therefore luring heroin abusers with a potentially exaggerated
promise.
Bernstein cites independent studies to buttress his claims. A study
from the University of Miami School of Medicine in 2000 reports a 55
percent abstinence rate six months after rapid detoxification. A
German clinical investigation in 2000 found a 68 percent success rate
at 12 months. But neither study compared the procedure with a control
group, so it’s impossible to state whether patients would have been
more or less successful with another treatment.
Herbert Kleber, director of the division on substance abuse at
Columbia University, takes issue with Bernstein’s claims. “I challenge
him to take 100 addicts off the street and show a 65 percent success
rate,” Kleber says. “He won’t be able to.”
Kleber has just completed the largest scientific study of rapid detox
to date, and his numbers don’t come close to matching Bernstein’s.
Using a $1 million grant from the National Institute on Drug Abuse,
Kleber followed 105 abusers through rapid detox and two other
treatments. He found that after three months, rapid detox fared no
better than other methods.
But even if it doesn’t work as advertised, it’s still a useful
treatment that can seem like a miracle cure. Even Tim Lincoln, the
relapsed OxyContin addict from Texas, grudgingly admits it served a
purpose. Before he went to see Bernstein, he tried to quit twice, only
to suffer a week of diarrhea, nausea, and severe depression each time.
Though he didn’t feel good after rapid detox, he didn’t have any
diarrhea or nausea. Essentially, Bernstein’s treatment allowed him to
skip that first and most painful week of the process.
It was an illusory victory – Lincoln relapsed within two months. He
eventually found the willpower to suffer through the withdrawal on his
own and, with the help of Narcotics Anonymous, is clean now. But for
addicts who cannot make it through that first week of withdrawal any
other way, the $15,000 procedure may be their only hope. And for white
collar addicts – business executives, doctors, celebrities, sports
stars – the quick fix promised by rapid detox is a powerful draw.
Amanda, a busy Northern California medical-supply sales rep who asked
that her real name not be used, was popping 20 Vicodins a day but
didn’t want to take a lot of time to deal with her addiction. Before
she found out about Waismann, she was preparing for a 30-day detox in
Malibu. Bernstein, she says, cured her in a weekend: “They put me
under Friday. I was a little groggy Saturday. By Sunday, I was ready
to get back to work. And I had no desire for the pills.”
While criticism from within the medical community hasn’t influenced
Bernstein, competition may. In November, Chicago-based Midwest Rapid
Opiate Detoxification Specialists opened a center in LA. Jake Epperly,
the clinical director, distinguishes his method from the Waismann
practice by emphasizing “the absolute necessity of a continuing care
recovery program” based on Narcotics Anonymous. Epperly runs his own
halfway house in Chicago and markets his group as the only rapid detox
service in the US with a 28-day inpatient aftercare program.
Of course, closely monitoring a former user’s sobriety is a pillar of
NA. Addicts are expected to attend 90 meetings in 90 days and speak
regularly with a sponsor who has been off drugs for an extended
period.
Bernstein has never offered a robust aftercare program. He trusts in
the science, not the therapy. At the Waismann Institute, the $15,000
fee includes 6 to 12 follow-up phone calls from a psychologist.
Bernstein is particularly adamant that the Narcotics Anonymous
approach is counterproductive. “The last thing I want is for my
patients to sit in a room with a bunch of other addicts and spend all
their time talking about drugs,” he says. “It’s like a cult. Plus,
that’s where all the drug dealers hang out.”
But Bernstein is adapting. He says that he is in the process of
creating his own Waismann-branded luxury recovery center near a beach
in Orange County, where addicts can stay after detox. According to
Bernstein, it’ll be nicer and more effective than Epperly’s program.
Rather than attend group meetings, patients will be encouraged to play
golf and take walks on the beach.
Epperly scoffs at the approach. “Golfing won’t keep them off drugs,”
he says. “Just because their bodies don’t crave it doesn’t mean they
psychologically don’t want it.”
Bryan Peterson is sitting in the backyard of his parents’ suburban
home in the hills outside Las Vegas. It has been two weeks since he
underwent rapid detox. The swelling in his extremities has gone down,
and the scabs on his arms have fallen off. There are dark bags under
his eyes, and his skin looks like yellowed parchment. But he manages a
meager smile. For the first time in two years, he’s been sober for
more than a few days. “Everything just looks a little greener,” he
says, staring out at the mostly gray desert.
Then he taps his fingers on the glass table in front of him. He lights
a cigarette. He’s got nothing to do. His next scheduled phone
conversation with the Waismann psychologist isn’t for three days.
Peterson admits that he opened the yellow pages a couple of days ago
and found the address of a local methadone clinic. “It’s the easiest
place to score,” he says. But he didn’t go, and he says that he feels
better every day. By mid-November, he was still clean and he moved
with his fiancée to Glasgow, Kentucky. It’s a dry town – no alcohol is
sold within city limits – and it’s supposed to be very green.
Contributing editor Joshua Davis (jd@wiredmag.com) wrote about
supercoca in issue 12.11.
Copyright (C) 1993-99 The Conde Nast Publications Inc. All rights reserved.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ot (don’t look)
Date: January 5, 2005 at 10:53:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’M VERY INTERESTED IN THIS KIND OF REASERCH,
Creating sound with a remote control can make people go nut.
Some sounds we can not even hear.
In that way no one can see the attacker or who is being attacked
the victim wouldn’t even feel being a victim.
It would be very interesting to find a sound detector and a neutralizer too.
but it will not kill the person like any other conventional weapon.
It would be a war without killing but with the possibility to control,
So, new type of implants, anti-sound weapon.
Some animal will get confused but that’s ok new type of behaviors will be
adapted , that’s fun after so many years of the same.
Hey, so I’m going to call G-d directly, I know he has a straight line to G.
Bush, G-d told me things too , you know, he told me some cosmic jokes,
One of them was about Bush&Jeff , the two brothers, one will kill the other
just wait… history has always been repeated, it happens in the best
families.
“Don’t worry” G-D said “thing are just under control and even when it
doesn’t look that way, from chaos will come order. Even I HAVE A REMORE
CONTROL.”
BLESSING,
Sara
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else [mailto:reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca]
Verzonden: dinsdag 4 januari 2005 8:25
Aan: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Onderwerp: [Ibogaine] ot (don’t look)
Tiny corkscrew pulls blood clots from brain
Brain surgery robot begins trials more autonomous
robots would have to be used.
“We would like to make a political system that could
go inside the bloodstream,” Mei told New Scientist.
“Maybe we can make it even smaller using
nanotechnology.”
DNA robot takes its first steps
The underwater astronauts will try to carry out
several procedures
– such as ultrasonic diagnostics and kidney stone
extraction
– under the guidance of surgeons on the surface.
– We need to understand what level of medical
background
– a person needs to be able to carry out medical
procedures, says Williams.
Mei admits that the project is at an early stage but
Baby buckyballs believes remote controlled swimming
machines could be used to deliver drugs to a
particular part of the human body, through the blood
stream.
(Drugs delivered by robots in the blood_)
A microscopic swimming robot unveiled by Chinese
scientists could eventually be used for drug delivery
or to clear arteries in humans, say researchers.
The 3 millimetre-long triangular machine was
constructed by Tao Mei of the Chinese Academy of
Sciences, Beijing, and colleagues from the University
of Science and Technology of China.
The craft is propelled using an external magnetic
field which controls its microscopic fins. The fins
are made from an alloy that contracts in response to
application of the field. Applying the field quickly
makes the tiny submersible paddle forwards and
gradually switching the field off slowly moves the
fins back to their original position.
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Open Access to the Neuropsychopharmacology Online Archive
Date: January 5, 2005 at 8:20:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks Howard.
-J
— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
For better or worse. For richer for poorer.
Howard
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
FREE access to the Neuropsychopharmacology online
archive!*
Neuropsychopharmacology, the official publication of
the
American College of Neuropsychopharmacology,
publishes the
highest quality original research that advances the
understanding of the brain and behavior.
We are pleased to announce that the journal now
offers free
access to its online archive, including full-text
articles,
with the exception of articles published within the
last 12
months.
To view the online archive, visit the journal’s
website at
http://www.neuropsychopharmacology.org any time.
Simply click
on any article (more than a year old) from the
Archive link on
the homepage.
*Open archive includes all articles published more
than 12
months from current issue date. Articles are
available in
full-text PDF or HTML format to all site visitors.
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___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Apologies
Date: January 5, 2005 at 5:26:44 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear List,
I want to apologise for my last few posts, in particular to Carla. I know you were only trying to help. I am afraid I lost the thread of myself.
If it helps to understand, in the last week I have fully relived deeply repressed stuff about repeated abuse as a boy by a female and I am afraid that has spilled over onto the list. It seems that my Shadow came out of the bag. Had to happen. I am only sorry that it has not been an entirely positive esperience.
On top of that my mother is not well and that has been upsetting me.
Many apologies once again.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 9:48:03 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeh, I have to agree with Randy here.
If I were new to this list (and I am fairly new…) I would be put off by the – emails you are sending each other. They don’t have anything to do with the rest of us… just two people who have differing views. How bout you write to eachother personally see if you can’t resolve this???
Love to you both
No offence….don’t ya just love the EGOOOOOOOOOOOOO??????? Hehheh it works well n’est pas?
Kirk
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, 5 January 2005 2:45 a.m. To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll try not to get personal here but some if not most of the people who read this list are looking for help for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the appropriate word. Most of here us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand the context of what your saying. Both of you. In other words what is your point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi and I get intimidated by your intellegence. HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available to the people who need it. “Scuse me for shooting from the hip. Randy
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of Topic Discussions – Are they effective for the list?
Date: January 4, 2005 at 6:25:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Carla,
Its easy to judge someone without knowing them in person.
I am sure there is a lot of truth in what you say but I dont really go along with all your character assessments particular when you try to psych me online.
Your entitled to your opinion but you would be making a mistake to assume it is correct.
The website I set up is an attempt to convey the spiritual aspects of eboga and by your own admission you have not read it. It is not a personal statement of anything other than my own struggle to understand something that might help others. I am not going to go through its contents as that would be very boooring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry to be so negative but I am in a very combative place right now and not really in the mood to be patronised.
All the best to you,
Lee
Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:
Guys 😉 Calm down a little!
If you haven’t noticed in the last zillion messages
here, a lot of people already start messages with ‘ot’
[OT] ‘-OT-‘ which means Off Topic. Sometimes they
don’t remember to post that 😉
This is the list charter at the bottom of all the
messages, I think Patrick said he wrote it years after
the list started to describe what it is. He did a
great job and did it with humor but it’s honest
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
I think the list does exactly what it’s supposed to
do, people look for help they find it, they talk,
there are all these messages of gratitude to this
place. I have the same feelings, I looked for help and
inspiration and I found it here years ago and yes
Patrick I won’t mention you by name a zillion times
anymore 😉
The list doesn’t have any problems I can see, its a
great community.
Lee I like reading your messages, sometimes they give
me something to think about sometimes I read a
sentence and skip the rest. I also wrote you a short
message when you first came on here about coming
across with a lot of ego. Instead of arguing you
changed your tone, which made me have more respect for
you. I think part of your problem might be that you
view yourself as this spiritual teacher and get
frustrated when nobody shows too much interest in
following you to wherever it is that you think you’re
going. Reading your web site I think you made this
whole personal world without noticing what everyone
else in ibogaine is doing and then showed up and get
upset when everyone else doesn’t want to join you
wherever it is that you are. Now you’re down on
yourself because you’ve failed to live up to your own
standards? I don’t honestly know! I think you’re a
very smart, messed up person, which describes most of
the best contributors to this list.
If you want to gain followers or become more known as
a ibogaine spiritual expert or whatever it is that you
want, you might be looking in the wrong place.
Lorenzo has never said anything except about ayahausca
and art paintings, you set him off by writing a
message about addiction that was less then enlightened
😉 right in the middle of a good message Howard
posted. I hate to say it, but nobody is paying too
much attention to the views of anyone about addiction,
unless they have been a drug addict. Maybe somewhere
else but not here.
Francis is another crazy smart guy whos messages I
like reading 😉 Hi Francis! Except he doesn’t have
the attitude of acting like he’s looking for followers
he’s only talking 😉
Patrick what are the other lists here besides
sacrament?
The only thing that has ever truly offended me here
are the little kids who feel the need to repost
rotten.com pictures to this list. Hi, I know Patrick
is friends with the person who runs rotten. I know
they’ve been friends since they were both little kids.
But neither Patrick or the person who runs rotten.com
has ever seen the need to post their pictures to this
list. I personally find them disgusting and if someone
wants to view rotten.com they can go view it, I do not
need to open my email and see little boys with Jesus
on the ibogaine list. I think being openly disruptive
for no reason is the one reason that someone should be
thrown off this list.
That isn’t having a opinion that’s acting like a 5
year old who wants attention and bothering people who
are here to get help. This is the Re elect Bush Cheney
in 08 person who does this.
My opinions only.
Love to all
Carla B
— Lee Albert wrote:
> Hi Frances,
>
> I think thats a good idea. I am beginning to
> question my contributions to the list and whether
> there is any point. I am also thinking they are way
> too academic to be of any real use. Apart from that
> I don’t think my last few posts were in any way
> helpful as I allowed myself to get too personal for
> which I apologise.
>
> The list after all is primarily for people seeking
> advice on ibogaine. Is there room for discussions on
> healing systems etc?
>
> How do we best meet the primary needs of the list?
>
> Randy, any comments?
>
> Lee
>
> The Garden wrote:
> Why could we not use something like ( out of topic )
> in the subject ligne ?
> like :
> ( out of topic ) Mental
> ( out of topic ) Drug news
> ( out of topic ) Spiritual
> ( out of topic ) Fun
> ( out of topic ) Botanical
> ( out of topic ) Politics
> ( out of topic ) Where to get drugs in the Village
> ( out of topic ) Shrooms
> ( out of topic ) Music
>
> and so on …..so on.
> God Bless
> Francis
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Carla Barnes”
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper –
> Att. Lorenzo
>
>
> > LMAO, Thanks Randy!
> >
> > There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of
> new
> > messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
> > talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out
> their
> > fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
> >
> > Carla B
> >
> > — BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll
> try
> > > not to get personal here
> > > but some if not most of the people who read this
> > > list are looking for help
> > > for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
> > > appropriate word. Most of here
> > > us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand
> the
> > > context of what your
> > > saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
> > > point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
> > > and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
> > > HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
> > > war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available
> to
> > > the people who need it.
> > > “Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
> > > Randy
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced
> search.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> >
> >
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] -=> [nOTe] <=-
Date: January 4, 2005 at 5:43:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Jan 4, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Carla Barnes wrote:
Patrick what are the other lists here besides
sacrament?
The only thing that has ever truly offended me here
are the little kids who feel the need to repost
rotten.com pictures to this list. Hi, I know Patrick
is friends with the person who runs rotten. I know
they’ve been friends since they were both little kids.
But neither Patrick or the person who runs rotten.com
has ever seen the need to post their pictures to this
list. I personally find them disgusting and if someone
wants to view rotten.com they can go view it, I do not
need to open my email and see little boys with Jesus
on the ibogaine list. I think being openly disruptive
for no reason is the one reason that someone should be
thrown off this list.
Right now the only two “ibogaine” lists open are ThE lIsT (this one) and Sacrament. We nearly opened an after-ibogaine list, but after kicking it back and forth with various people; we decided against it.
I mean, I can open an infinite number of ibogaine lists, neatly organized, sorted into sub-categories, alphabetized, color-coded, and Perfectly Aligned so all the LABELS are FACING in the SAME DIRECTION.
But all that’s gonna happen is; as each new list opens, 25-50 people will SIGN ON to it. Post half a dozen messages, and then start cross-posting everything back and forth across all the lists, because they realize, “Do’h! This could apply in more than one place!”
The end result is either: absolute silence. Or tangled spaghetti strewn across multiple lists. Same Mess, made BiggeR and sPlatTerEd.
This isn’t a new dynamic, and it’s not exclusive to ibogaine. It’s sumthin’ that has remained relatively consistent over the decade+plus, mINDvOX haz been here.
Basically, everybody ends up drifting back to THE LIST.
Which is … okay. It’s not really hard to follow or read, presuming you take 5 minutes to familiarize yourself with the capabilities of your email client.
There are usually half a dozen — or more — conversations taking place at any given time; which are of interest to the participants, and their self-selected readers. If you pulled aside Any Given Person on THE LIST, and asked them what they read today. Chances are, you’ll get a variety of replies; all different.
The only major change that’ll take place Real Soon Now, is we’re gonna export everything to a web-interface, that makes it easier to search through what is ALREADY HERE. ‘Cuz, we’re approaching 20,000 messages.
As far as anything else goes, I’m not the babysitter; there is no hands-on moderation, I’m not gonna pull anyone aside and tell ’em what they’re doing is inappropriate. Because, for the most part, it’s not.
If somebody posts random bullshit, they usually error-correct and STOP after a little while; once they’ve worked it out of their system. Or, it’s entertaining. Why not?
There has been exactly ONE TIME I have ever removed anyone from this list; and that was a guy who just kept posting this endless stream of 3 line messages. And kept going … for a day and a half. And he wasn’t actually talking to anybody who is … here. He seems to have cross-connected half his address book and just started typing.
A lotta people complained, I looked at it, and he was either tweaking out on crack; ran out of meds; or The Planets were Aligned thaT Day, and it was just ThaT TIME.
Two or three days later he signed himself back on the list, and didn’t cause any further problems. A few months later he was one of the people who took ibogaine, got unsprung, and became a positive contributor. <Shrug>.
This isn’t the Perfect People in a Perfect World, Aren’t We All Lit Up and Radiating Excellent Mental Health List.
Shit happens.
You can actually bl1p out the variable called “ibogaine,” insert anything else, such as, “computer security,” and all forums go through similar stages and phases.
This is a symptom of being human, and interacting online.
LaterS,
Patrick
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of Topic Discussions – Are they effective for the list?
Date: January 4, 2005 at 5:23:34 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Carla !!
You wrote :
Francis is another crazy smart guy whos messages I
like reading 😉 Hi Francis!
* Call me poor of spirit I tought that OT was part of ” the space opera as
theology” from Scientology.
I was thinking : why so many Scientologist are in this group 🙂 !!?
I don’t feel offended by the fact that you call me crazy : ” I am a ” fou
de Dieu ”
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of Topic Discussions – Are they effective for
the list?
Guys 😉 Calm down a little!
If you haven’t noticed in the last zillion messages
here, a lot of people already start messages with ‘ot’
[OT] ‘-OT-‘ which means Off Topic. Sometimes they
don’t remember to post that 😉
This is the list charter at the bottom of all the
messages, I think Patrick said he wrote it years after
the list started to describe what it is. He did a
great job and did it with humor but it’s honest
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
I think the list does exactly what it’s supposed to
do, people look for help they find it, they talk,
there are all these messages of gratitude to this
place. I have the same feelings, I looked for help and
inspiration and I found it here years ago and yes
Patrick I won’t mention you by name a zillion times
anymore 😉
The list doesn’t have any problems I can see, its a
great community.
Lee I like reading your messages, sometimes they give
me something to think about sometimes I read a
sentence and skip the rest. I also wrote you a short
message when you first came on here about coming
across with a lot of ego. Instead of arguing you
changed your tone, which made me have more respect for
you. I think part of your problem might be that you
view yourself as this spiritual teacher and get
frustrated when nobody shows too much interest in
following you to wherever it is that you think you’re
going. Reading your web site I think you made this
whole personal world without noticing what everyone
else in ibogaine is doing and then showed up and get
upset when everyone else doesn’t want to join you
wherever it is that you are. Now you’re down on
yourself because you’ve failed to live up to your own
standards? I don’t honestly know! I think you’re a
very smart, messed up person, which describes most of
the best contributors to this list.
If you want to gain followers or become more known as
a ibogaine spiritual expert or whatever it is that you
want, you might be looking in the wrong place.
Lorenzo has never said anything except about ayahausca
and art paintings, you set him off by writing a
message about addiction that was less then enlightened
😉 right in the middle of a good message Howard
posted. I hate to say it, but nobody is paying too
much attention to the views of anyone about addiction,
unless they have been a drug addict. Maybe somewhere
else but not here.
Francis is another crazy smart guy whos messages I
like reading 😉 Hi Francis! Except he doesn’t have
the attitude of acting like he’s looking for followers
he’s only talking 😉
Patrick what are the other lists here besides
sacrament?
The only thing that has ever truly offended me here
are the little kids who feel the need to repost
rotten.com pictures to this list. Hi, I know Patrick
is friends with the person who runs rotten. I know
they’ve been friends since they were both little kids.
But neither Patrick or the person who runs rotten.com
has ever seen the need to post their pictures to this
list. I personally find them disgusting and if someone
wants to view rotten.com they can go view it, I do not
need to open my email and see little boys with Jesus
on the ibogaine list. I think being openly disruptive
for no reason is the one reason that someone should be
thrown off this list.
That isn’t having a opinion that’s acting like a 5
year old who wants attention and bothering people who
are here to get help. This is the Re elect Bush Cheney
in 08 person who does this.
My opinions only.
Love to all
Carla B
— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Frances,
I think thats a good idea. I am beginning to
question my contributions to the list and whether
there is any point. I am also thinking they are way
too academic to be of any real use. Apart from that
I don’t think my last few posts were in any way
helpful as I allowed myself to get too personal for
which I apologise.
The list after all is primarily for people seeking
advice on ibogaine. Is there room for discussions on
healing systems etc?
How do we best meet the primary needs of the list?
Randy, any comments?
Lee
The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Why could we not use something like ( out of topic )
in the subject ligne ?
like :
( out of topic ) Mental
( out of topic ) Drug news
( out of topic ) Spiritual
( out of topic ) Fun
( out of topic ) Botanical
( out of topic ) Politics
( out of topic ) Where to get drugs in the Village
( out of topic ) Shrooms
( out of topic ) Music
and so on …..so on.
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper –
Att. Lorenzo
LMAO, Thanks Randy!
There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of
new
messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out
their
fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
Carla B
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll
try
not to get personal here
but some if not most of the people who read this
list are looking for help
for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
appropriate word. Most of here
us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand
the
context of what your
saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available
to
the people who need it.
“Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
Randy
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced
search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] for http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/comm/Alcohol/20041215/
Date: January 4, 2005 at 4:50:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please feel free to suggest changes, corrections. Any one else who wants to testify should.
Dana/cnw
My name is Dana Beal, and I represent the AIDS activist group Cures not Wars. First I would like to thank Chairmans Dinowitz and Gottfried for the opportunity to testify fully and frankly on this public health crisis. Let me by blunt:
When all other illicit substances are eliminated by interdiction, methamphetamine is what’s left. Crystal meth is easily manufactured in thousands of small guerrilla labs using products available over the counter. Therefore to ask what more law enforcement can do to dry up the supply or disrupt the traffic is an exercise in political misdirection. Law enforcement turns polydrug users into crystal addicts. Law enforcement caused the problem.
Likewise there are severe limits on what can be done with education. Crystal already has a TERRIBLE reputation among drug users–but the ones who do abuse it do so in defiance of all social norms–all sanity. The only answer is to cut demand, and to do that you need effective treatment that will stop people from doing crystal meth as effectively as naltrexan or methadone block heroin use.
You need a treatment breakthrough, since conventional wisdom as represented by the recent GMHC report on Crystal Meth and AIDS in the Gay community is that “there is no known treatment for crystal meth.” You need to bite the bullet and turn to nostrums in the medication development pipeline that have been rejected until now as too innovative, too big of a paradigm shift.
It’s time to take a look at the first true addiction interrupters, the iboga alkaloids, effective across the broad spectrum of abused substances–cocaine, methamphetamine, nicotine, opiates and alcohol–which work by upping the level of dopamine in the part of the brain that initiates drug seeking behavior. It is noteworthy that mice or rats, once started, will inject cocaine or amphetamines, ignoring food and water, until they die. But mice bio-engineered not to have something called the Messenger Glutamate Receptor 5 soon stopped pushing the lever that injected them with stimulants. Catheters showed that their dopamine was spiking, serotonin was spiking…but nonetheless they lost interest in the lever after a few injections and went back to their food and water.
We believe this is the mechanism for ibogaine and the iboga alkaloids, which are a kind of glutamate antagonist.
These compounds have been too controversial for the National Institute of Drug Abuse, which abandoned ibogaine development in 1995 in favor of buprenorphin, which has no utility whatsoever in combatting stimulant abuse. Worldwide, 85% of all drug development money for addiction treatments comes from NIDA. Big pharma is not interested in either the stigma or the excessive regulatory requirements involved in new treatments for addictions. And private philanthropical resources (together with whatever government monies they can leverage) are almost exclusively channeled into feel-good public relations efforts like the current “Crystal Free and Sexy” campaign in the Gay Community designed by AmFAR and partially funded by the City of New York under a special no-bid arrangement.
Assemblyman Lentol once asked if he should worry that Ibogaine, if legalized, would make it to the street and become a new drug of abuse. Let me say, for the record, that not only is ibogaine physically hard to take, requiring constant personal attendants, especially during the early hours when the subject is in a form of sleep paralysis, but also that only the FDA case officer who ever really looked it, Dr. Curtis Wrght, characterized its abuse potential as “very low to nonexistent.” It is also the only semi-licit drug where providers require 3 medical tests–EKG, EEG and liver assay–before they’ll give it. I say semi-licit because ibogaine is already legally available in Canada and Mexico, making the 4 month after-effect impossible to prohibit, and denying effective treatment only to those impoverished by addiction who need it most.
Rich addicts can already fly to St. Kitts, and pay $12,000. The middle class pays $3,000 in Mexico.
Chairman Lentol’s question is emblematic of the special problem with medications development for treatment of drug dependency. Unlike the victims of every other disease, society does not trust patients who have exhibited a pattern of drug abuse to tell them what treatments work for them.
Even though Ibogaine is currently the only compound available for the interruption of compulsive stimulant abuse, the kneejerk reaction seems to be to keep it illegal because it was discovered by a heroin addict, and is principally used to detoxify addicts from methadone, the gold standard of opiate maintenance. Many’s the time Ibogaine exponents have encountered methadone practitioners incensed at the very notion that an ibogaine-like substance might be a better answer for addicts with compromised immune systems or impaired liver function.
Yet the fact is both methamphetamine and methadone up-regulate the replication of HIV. And methadone competes with protease inhibitors, for instance, in the liver, so that even higher doses are required to achieve opiate satiation.
One of the concerns in assessing potential treatments for crystal meth addiction is not just how conventional treatment for hepatitis and HIV can be better targeted for hidden addict populations, but how to treat these people’s addictions with pharmacotherapies that help–instead of messing up–the patients liver function and immune status. We have enough anecdotal data in this respect to be confident in the anti-viral effects of iboga alkaloids. Significant improvement in T-cell count, impressive drying-up of herpes, dramatic improvement in hepatitis C status are not unusual in folks who take ibogaine to interrupt their addictions.
Recently the New York State Office of Alcohol and Substance Abuse Services updated their ibogaine webpage to address the issue of efficacy of ibogaine in treating addiction to crystal. Unfortunately they only inserted the word methamphetamine in the list of things the Glick drug, 18 MC is good for. I need to dispell any impression that ibogaine is not also every bit as useful, since careful reading of results of animal studies at Glick’s lab at Albany Medical College reveals that ibogaine is actually more effective for amphetamine than 18 MC. (Conversely, 18 MC is twice as effective for cigarettes). Presently, the only treatments in humans of crystal meth addiction have been with the natural compound, Ibogaine HCl or the “Indra” extract.
The OASAS Website is: http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/AdMed/meds/fyiibogaine.htm
Dr Stanley Glick at the Albany Medical Center was not looking for a more effective treatment for cigarettes when he designed 18 MC. He was trying to come up with an iboga alkaloid without the potential for bradycardia (dangerous slowing of heartbeat and breathing), or the NMDA and Sigma-2 toxicity. Yet the implication is plain: somewhere among the iboga alkaloids is one that is particularly effective for crystal meth.
If the voters of California can earmark $3 Billion for stem-cell research, the least it seems the New York State Assembly can do is provide a much more modest amount for Dr. Glick to finish his research and bring some medications to market, as well loosening restrictions on research by re-scheduling Ibogaine to reflect the fact that it has NO potential for abuse, and abundant medical uses besides treatment of addictions, including anti-stroke, anti-viral, anti-tumor, anti-obsessive/compulsive disorder indications, as well as potential in the treatment of drug resistant tuberculosis.
[I should note that ibogaine also addresses, as an obsessive/compulsive disorder, binge sex on crystal .]
If the Assembly is not willing to recognize the work of New York State researchers and the State’s own substance abuse office, OASAS, and take official notice that a whole new family of compounds exists to treat stimulant abuse, then we’ll never avail ourselves of the most obvious place to look for new answers — the new treatments that are already in the medications development pipeline.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of Topic Discussions – Are they effective for the list?
Date: January 4, 2005 at 4:22:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I hate to say it, but nobody is paying too
much attention to the views of anyone about addiction,
unless they have been a drug addict. Maybe somewhere
else but not here. <
The police listen to non-addicts, as do legislators and other prohibitionist types, unfortunately. Other than for those exceptions from “elsewhere,” as noted by Carla, she/you’ve hit the nail on the head. I haven’t actually been following the thread she’s/you’re talking about here but I agree with the above sentence completely. If someone starts trying to tell me about addiction and they’ve not actually experienced it, I don’t care if they even live with an addict- they might know what that is like but they still don’t really, really, really know what the whole “I’m addicted” thing entails. It’s too personal. V “knows” addiction like few others, but she still doesn’t KNOW what it entails for me inside, the physical and mental torments. She knows a lot, but not the roots of it, the deep, dark aspects way hidden inside that never come to light ever, and she won’t unless she becomes personally addicted to something (other than for her wonderful, beautiful, incredible, can’t-be-beat addiction to me that is of course. big smile). So when someone begins talking about addiction, without that personal experience, they might be able to tell me some things about it, but I will still have more trouble listening to them than if the person speaking actually is speaking from experience. This isn’t to say I can’t learn from non-addicts, even about addictions, only that I will be more readily able to pay attention to addicts than non- when discussing addiction.
Does this make sense? Am I rambling? Does it matter? Who is it? What does it all meen? Why aren’t there fields of poppies growing outside my window?
Questions without answers.
Um, ok, I’m slipping off the track now, gotta go.
Peace and love,
Preston the ramblin rambler.
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of Topic Discussions – Are they effective for the list?
Guys 😉 Calm down a little!
If you haven’t noticed in the last zillion messages
here, a lot of people already start messages with ‘ot’
[OT] ‘-OT-‘ which means Off Topic. Sometimes they
don’t remember to post that 😉
This is the list charter at the bottom of all the
messages, I think Patrick said he wrote it years after
the list started to describe what it is. He did a
great job and did it with humor but it’s honest
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
I think the list does exactly what it’s supposed to
do, people look for help they find it, they talk,
there are all these messages of gratitude to this
place. I have the same feelings, I looked for help and
inspiration and I found it here years ago and yes
Patrick I won’t mention you by name a zillion times
anymore 😉
The list doesn’t have any problems I can see, its a
great community.
Lee I like reading your messages, sometimes they give
me something to think about sometimes I read a
sentence and skip the rest. I also wrote you a short
message when you first came on here about coming
across with a lot of ego. Instead of arguing you
changed your tone, which made me have more respect for
you. I think part of your problem might be that you
view yourself as this spiritual teacher and get
frustrated when nobody shows too much interest in
following you to wherever it is that you think you’re
going. Reading your web site I think you made this
whole personal world without noticing what everyone
else in ibogaine is doing and then showed up and get
upset when everyone else doesn’t want to join you
wherever it is that you are. Now you’re down on
yourself because you’ve failed to live up to your own
standards? I don’t honestly know! I think you’re a
very smart, messed up person, which describes most of
the best contributors to this list.
If you want to gain followers or become more known as
a ibogaine spiritual expert or whatever it is that you
want, you might be looking in the wrong place.
Lorenzo has never said anything except about ayahausca
and art paintings, you set him off by writing a
message about addiction that was less then enlightened
😉 right in the middle of a good message Howard
posted. I hate to say it, but nobody is paying too
much attention to the views of anyone about addiction,
unless they have been a drug addict. Maybe somewhere
else but not here.
Francis is another crazy smart guy whos messages I
like reading 😉 Hi Francis! Except he doesn’t have
the attitude of acting like he’s looking for followers
he’s only talking 😉
Patrick what are the other lists here besides
sacrament?
The only thing that has ever truly offended me here
are the little kids who feel the need to repost
rotten.com pictures to this list. Hi, I know Patrick
is friends with the person who runs rotten. I know
they’ve been friends since they were both little kids.
But neither Patrick or the person who runs rotten.com
has ever seen the need to post their pictures to this
list. I personally find them disgusting and if someone
wants to view rotten.com they can go view it, I do not
need to open my email and see little boys with Jesus
on the ibogaine list. I think being openly disruptive
for no reason is the one reason that someone should be
thrown off this list.
That isn’t having a opinion that’s acting like a 5
year old who wants attention and bothering people who
are here to get help. This is the Re elect Bush Cheney
in 08 person who does this.
My opinions only.
Love to all
Carla B
— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Frances,
I think thats a good idea. I am beginning to
question my contributions to the list and whether
there is any point. I am also thinking they are way
too academic to be of any real use. Apart from that
I don’t think my last few posts were in any way
helpful as I allowed myself to get too personal for
which I apologise.
The list after all is primarily for people seeking
advice on ibogaine. Is there room for discussions on
healing systems etc?
How do we best meet the primary needs of the list?
Randy, any comments?
Lee
The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Why could we not use something like ( out of topic )
in the subject ligne ?
like :
( out of topic ) Mental
( out of topic ) Drug news
( out of topic ) Spiritual
( out of topic ) Fun
( out of topic ) Botanical
( out of topic ) Politics
( out of topic ) Where to get drugs in the Village
( out of topic ) Shrooms
( out of topic ) Music
and so on …..so on.
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —– From: “Carla Barnes”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper –
Att. Lorenzo
> LMAO, Thanks Randy!
>
> There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of
new
> messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
> talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out
their
> fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
>
> Carla B
>
> — BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
>
> > That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll
try
> > not to get personal here
> > but some if not most of the people who read this
> > list are looking for help
> > for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
> > appropriate word. Most of here
> > us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand
the
> > context of what your
> > saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
> > point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
> > and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
> > HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
> > war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available
to
> > the people who need it.
> > “Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
> > Randy
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced
search.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 4:07:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I thought OT worked just fine actually, and takes less time to type.
;-))
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Why could we not use something like ( out of topic ) in the subject ligne ?
like :
( out of topic ) Mental
( out of topic ) Drug news
( out of topic ) Spiritual
( out of topic ) Fun
( out of topic ) Botanical
( out of topic ) Politics
( out of topic ) Where to get drugs in the Village
( out of topic ) Shrooms
( out of topic ) Music
and so on …..so on.
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —– From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
LMAO, Thanks Randy!
There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of new
messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out their
fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
Carla B
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
> That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll try
> not to get personal here
> but some if not most of the people who read this
> list are looking for help
> for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
> appropriate word. Most of here
> us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand the
> context of what your
> saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
> point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
> and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
> HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
> war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available to
> the people who need it.
> “Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
> Randy
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 4, 2005 at 3:37:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
No Steve, I have not yet, however I believe it is what I want to do at the right time for me. I read some of your “story”, we are much alike. I too am very functional in sales using Opiates. Have eaten thousands of Lortab’s in my time. Have been on Methadone the past 6 years, has worked well for me, keeps me away from H and the problems that brings. I am very glad I was able to help you stay away from UROD.!!!!!!! I do not exagerate one bit when I tell you it was the most horrible experiance in my 54 years.
bf
—–Original Message—–
From: stowe01@comcast.net [mailto:stowe01@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:23 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Brad,
Thanks for that account of rapid detox. I know now for sure that I am not going to do that. Have u done Ibogaine and if u did how successful was it?
Thanks,
Steve
————– Original message ————–
> I just had to throw my (two-cents) in!!!! I did an Ultra Rapid Opiate Detox
> in Portland Or. $10,000.00+ . Was the most horrible experiance of my life.
> That takes into acct. an accidental taking of Naltraxone (100) mg on top of
> 30 Perc./day habit. As terrible as that was it was over at about 9 hours,
> like my brain had been squeegie’d clean. The UROD went on and on from the
> time I “came-to” and was “cured”. Whoever might be considering
> this…RECONSIDER!!!!
> bf
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:41 AM
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
>
>
> Dear Steve,
>
> How are you? I have heard Ultra Rapid Opiate Detox is
> a scam, and a nightmare. There is negative
> press/postings about it all over the internet.
> Apparently, you have a pretty high chance of still
> going through painful withdrawal AFTER you awake from
> the anaesthesia.
>
> IMHO, Ibogaine is the way to go, especially for opiate
> detox. I used to be addicted to heroin/methadone, and
> have been clean for three months now. I did my
> treatment in Toronto with a music therapist- if you’re
> interested, send me an email offlist, and I’ll give
> you details.
>
> Good luck with everything- Ibogaine is nothing short
> of a complete miracle…another key piece in the big
> puzzle of LIFE.
>
> cheers,
> Julie ms_iboga@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
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> [%]
>
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of Topic Discussions – Are they effective for the list?
Date: January 4, 2005 at 3:12:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Guys 😉 Calm down a little!
If you haven’t noticed in the last zillion messages
here, a lot of people already start messages with ‘ot’
[OT] ‘-OT-‘ which means Off Topic. Sometimes they
don’t remember to post that 😉
This is the list charter at the bottom of all the
messages, I think Patrick said he wrote it years after
the list started to describe what it is. He did a
great job and did it with humor but it’s honest
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
I think the list does exactly what it’s supposed to
do, people look for help they find it, they talk,
there are all these messages of gratitude to this
place. I have the same feelings, I looked for help and
inspiration and I found it here years ago and yes
Patrick I won’t mention you by name a zillion times
anymore 😉
The list doesn’t have any problems I can see, its a
great community.
Lee I like reading your messages, sometimes they give
me something to think about sometimes I read a
sentence and skip the rest. I also wrote you a short
message when you first came on here about coming
across with a lot of ego. Instead of arguing you
changed your tone, which made me have more respect for
you. I think part of your problem might be that you
view yourself as this spiritual teacher and get
frustrated when nobody shows too much interest in
following you to wherever it is that you think you’re
going. Reading your web site I think you made this
whole personal world without noticing what everyone
else in ibogaine is doing and then showed up and get
upset when everyone else doesn’t want to join you
wherever it is that you are. Now you’re down on
yourself because you’ve failed to live up to your own
standards? I don’t honestly know! I think you’re a
very smart, messed up person, which describes most of
the best contributors to this list.
If you want to gain followers or become more known as
a ibogaine spiritual expert or whatever it is that you
want, you might be looking in the wrong place.
Lorenzo has never said anything except about ayahausca
and art paintings, you set him off by writing a
message about addiction that was less then enlightened
😉 right in the middle of a good message Howard
posted. I hate to say it, but nobody is paying too
much attention to the views of anyone about addiction,
unless they have been a drug addict. Maybe somewhere
else but not here.
Francis is another crazy smart guy whos messages I
like reading 😉 Hi Francis! Except he doesn’t have
the attitude of acting like he’s looking for followers
he’s only talking 😉
Patrick what are the other lists here besides
sacrament?
The only thing that has ever truly offended me here
are the little kids who feel the need to repost
rotten.com pictures to this list. Hi, I know Patrick
is friends with the person who runs rotten. I know
they’ve been friends since they were both little kids.
But neither Patrick or the person who runs rotten.com
has ever seen the need to post their pictures to this
list. I personally find them disgusting and if someone
wants to view rotten.com they can go view it, I do not
need to open my email and see little boys with Jesus
on the ibogaine list. I think being openly disruptive
for no reason is the one reason that someone should be
thrown off this list.
That isn’t having a opinion that’s acting like a 5
year old who wants attention and bothering people who
are here to get help. This is the Re elect Bush Cheney
in 08 person who does this.
My opinions only.
Love to all
Carla B
— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Frances,
I think thats a good idea. I am beginning to
question my contributions to the list and whether
there is any point. I am also thinking they are way
too academic to be of any real use. Apart from that
I don’t think my last few posts were in any way
helpful as I allowed myself to get too personal for
which I apologise.
The list after all is primarily for people seeking
advice on ibogaine. Is there room for discussions on
healing systems etc?
How do we best meet the primary needs of the list?
Randy, any comments?
Lee
The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Why could we not use something like ( out of topic )
in the subject ligne ?
like :
( out of topic ) Mental
( out of topic ) Drug news
( out of topic ) Spiritual
( out of topic ) Fun
( out of topic ) Botanical
( out of topic ) Politics
( out of topic ) Where to get drugs in the Village
( out of topic ) Shrooms
( out of topic ) Music
and so on …..so on.
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper –
Att. Lorenzo
LMAO, Thanks Randy!
There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of
new
messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out
their
fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
Carla B
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll
try
not to get personal here
but some if not most of the people who read this
list are looking for help
for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
appropriate word. Most of here
us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand
the
context of what your
saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available
to
the people who need it.
“Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
Randy
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced
search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] kick
Date: January 4, 2005 at 3:03:50 PM EST
To: guinie_pig@mkultra.cia.gov
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Out of Topic Discussions – Are they effective for the list?
Date: January 4, 2005 at 2:35:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Frances,
I think thats a good idea. I am beginning to question my contributions to the list and whether there is any point. I am also thinking they are way too academic to be of any real use. Apart from that I don’t think my last few posts were in any way helpful as I allowed myself to get too personal for which I apologise.
The list after all is primarily for people seeking advice on ibogaine. Is there room for discussions on healing systems etc?
How do we best meet the primary needs of the list?
Randy, any comments?
Lee
The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Why could we not use something like ( out of topic ) in the subject ligne ?
like :
( out of topic ) Mental
( out of topic ) Drug news
( out of topic ) Spiritual
( out of topic ) Fun
( out of topic ) Botanical
( out of topic ) Politics
( out of topic ) Where to get drugs in the Village
( out of topic ) Shrooms
( out of topic ) Music
and so on …..so on.
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
> LMAO, Thanks Randy!
>
> There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of new
> messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
> talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out their
> fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
>
> Carla B
>
> — BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
>
> > That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll try
> > not to get personal here
> > but some if not most of the people who read this
> > list are looking for help
> > for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
> > appropriate word. Most of here
> > us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand the
> > context of what your
> > saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
> > point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
> > and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
> > HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
> > war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available to
> > the people who need it.
> > “Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
> > Randy
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
>
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
>
\]=———————————————————————=[/
>
>
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] = ) [out of topic] all of the above
Date: January 4, 2005 at 2:33:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 4, 2005 at 2:23:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Brad,
Thanks for that account of rapid detox. I know now for sure that I am not going to do that. Have u done Ibogaine and if u did how successful was it?
Thanks,
Steve
————– Original message ————–
> I just had to throw my (two-cents) in!!!! I did an Ultra Rapid Opiate Detox
> in Portland Or. $10,000.00+ . Was the most horrible experiance of my life.
> That takes into acct. an accidental taking of Naltraxone (100) mg on top of
> 30 Perc./day habit. As terrible as that was it was over at about 9 hours,
> like my brain had been squeegie’d clean. The UROD went on and on from the
> time I “came-to” and was “cured”. Whoever might be considering
> this…RECONSIDER!!!!
> bf
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:41 AM
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
>
>
> Dear Steve,
>
> How are you? I have heard Ultra Rapid Opiate Detox is
> a scam, and a nightmare. There is negative
> press/postings about it all over the internet.
> Apparently, you have a pretty high chance of still
> going through painful withdrawal AFTER you awake from
> the anaesthesia.
>
> IMHO, Ibogaine is the way to go, especially for opiate
> detox. I used to be addicted to heroin/methadone, and
> have been clean for three months now. I did my
> treatment in Toronto with a music therapist- if you’re
> interested, send me an email offlist, and I’ll give
> you details.
>
> Good luck with everything- Ibogaine is nothing short
> of a complete miracle…another key piece in the big
> puzzle of LIFE.
>
> cheers,
> Julie ms_iboga@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
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>
>
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
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>
>
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 1:54:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Why could we not use something like ( out of topic ) in the subject ligne ?
like :
( out of topic ) Mental
( out of topic ) Drug news
( out of topic ) Spiritual
( out of topic ) Fun
( out of topic ) Botanical
( out of topic ) Politics
( out of topic ) Where to get drugs in the Village
( out of topic ) Shrooms
( out of topic ) Music
and so on …..so on.
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Carla Barnes” <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
LMAO, Thanks Randy!
There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of new
messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out their
fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
Carla B
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll try
not to get personal here
but some if not most of the people who read this
list are looking for help
for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
appropriate word. Most of here
us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand the
context of what your
saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available to
the people who need it.
“Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
Randy
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 12:50:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sorry folks.
Just having a bad week.
Have to find somewhere to live.
Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:
LMAO, Thanks Randy!
There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of new
messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out their
fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
Carla B
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
> That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll try
> not to get personal here
> but some if not most of the people who read this
> list are looking for help
> for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
> appropriate word. Most of here
> us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand the
> context of what your
> saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
> point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
> and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
> HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
> war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available to
> the people who need it.
> “Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
> Randy
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 10:51:39 AM EST
To: digital@phantom.com
— Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:38:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper –
Att. Lorenzo
LMAO, Thanks Randy!
There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of new
messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out their
fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
Carla B
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll
try
not to get personal here
but some if not most of the people who read this
list are looking for help
for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
appropriate word. Most of here
us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand
the
context of what your
saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available to
the people who need it.
“Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
Randy
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced
search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 10:38:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
LMAO, Thanks Randy!
There is a sacrament list here that had a lot of new
messages when it opened but then everyone stopped
talking. Everyone who wants to could bash out their
fight about spirituality and no ego over there 😉
Carla B
— BiscuitBoy714@aol.com wrote:
That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll try
not to get personal here
but some if not most of the people who read this
list are looking for help
for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the
appropriate word. Most of here
us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand the
context of what your
saying. Both of you. In other words what is your
point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi
and I get intimidated by your intellegence.
HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a
war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available to
the people who need it.
“Scuse me for shooting from the hip.
Randy
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 4, 2005 at 10:09:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I just had to throw my (two-cents) in!!!! I did an Ultra Rapid Opiate Detox
in Portland Or. $10,000.00+ . Was the most horrible experiance of my life.
That takes into acct. an accidental taking of Naltraxone (100) mg on top of
30 Perc./day habit. As terrible as that was it was over at about 9 hours,
like my brain had been squeegie’d clean. The UROD went on and on from the
time I “came-to” and was “cured”. Whoever might be considering
this…RECONSIDER!!!!
bf
—–Original Message—–
From: Ms Iboga [mailto:ms_iboga@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:41 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Dear Steve,
How are you? I have heard Ultra Rapid Opiate Detox is
a scam, and a nightmare. There is negative
press/postings about it all over the internet.
Apparently, you have a pretty high chance of still
going through painful withdrawal AFTER you awake from
the anaesthesia.
IMHO, Ibogaine is the way to go, especially for opiate
detox. I used to be addicted to heroin/methadone, and
have been clean for three months now. I did my
treatment in Toronto with a music therapist- if you’re
interested, send me an email offlist, and I’ll give
you details.
Good luck with everything- Ibogaine is nothing short
of a complete miracle…another key piece in the big
puzzle of LIFE.
cheers,
Julie ms_iboga@yahoo.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
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From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 9:50:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
LOL, Randy
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 8:45:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That’s it, you guys are fucking killing me. I’ll try not to get personal here but some if not most of the people who read this list are looking for help for their addiction. Who cares if hubris is the appropriate word. Most of here us kan’t spel rite aniway. Much less understand the context of what your saying. Both of you. In other words what is your point? I’m just a dumb cuntry boi and I get intimidated by your intellegence. HeHeHeHe,,,,,,,never mind. It’s a war out here and Ibogaine needs to be available to the people who need it. “Scuse me for shooting from the hip. Randy
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo Correction
Date: January 4, 2005 at 6:24:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lorenzo,
Sorry, I said in pt 7 that its your idea that there are no common traits in humanity. Thats incorrect. You dont state that. Also, I am sorry if my post is a little reactive. Perhaps I am feeling a little tired and frustrated.
All the best to you
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Lorenzo,
Let me make a few responses to your post:
1. I never ask anyone to believe a word I say.
2. I don’t seek to express superiority. Maybe my ego from time to time gets out of the bag. Bad boy – in you go! However in the same way as someone who has studied their subject and tries to share it with others I don’t pretend to be ignorant of it either. I am sorry if you take that as trying to be superior. Its not my intention.
3. In regards to the Bwiti I mean no disrepect and apologise if some was given. I also prefixed that point with: ‘a reactive thought’. What I stated there is (to my recollection) documented by observers. I imagine that a true eboga doctor would have no problem with the point I made and probably smile. However, i do see your point and once again I apologise for any offense given. I can see how the word hubris would apply there. Apart from this example though I am not aware of it being a regular part of my posts.
4. As far as overcomplicating goes. Look mate I am just sharing my experiences and if you don’t agree with them so be it. Do you want me to keep them quiet because they perhaps challenge you to consider something you haven’t considered before or is it that you feel they are irrelevant to the discussion and thus making matters unnecessarily complicated? Perhaps they are. So perhaps I should seek out a different forum to express them? What do you think? I am open to guidance on that.
4.1 I would add though that these discussions have emerged out of a defense on my part to my analysis of a path to healing and how to deal with that. ie. the ego, the emotional body and the soul. I sometimes am left with no choice but to defend these positions when they are being knocked down so that others can decide for themselves. I consider the notion of “source” only as dangerously simple for a healing journey.
5. You keep saying I enjoy doing ibogaine. With all due respect please read the account of my first ibogaine experience detailed in my book and then you can make an informed opinion.
6. Having said that as time goes by and there are less issues to deal with (which you seem to ignore in your post i.e. the difficulty of dealing with issues) and there are many wonderful aspects to it. Does that offend you?
7. I take offense when you say that I presume to fit everyone into my ideology. For what its worth we are all different and I believe that there are common aspects to all of us which I am trying to document. Each has their own path. I am sharing mine. if everyone took your idea that there were no common traits in humanity, literature would be a lot poorer for it. For what its worth I keep repeating there are many paths.
8. Regarding cigarettes. Does it matter that I keep repeating that I am only using it as an example or are so pissed off with what I have written that you have this idea that I consider myself on a par with other addicts in terms of the problems they have? However, I do consider the possibility that there is a common route to addiction linked to childhood trauma etc. And smoking is an addiction. Its not the major problem in my life. Just a reflection of the state I find myself in from time to time.
9. If you read my post correctly to Howard you would realise I was stating an opinion for discussion. Not laying down the law. Can I not develop ideas and seek responses? Could you not simply have said you disagreed and we could have opened up the discussion?
Finally, in case I have not made it clear I do not consider myself perfect nor never will be. If you find what I write offensive can you at least show a little curtesy in making your point rather than resorting to offensiveness? I am (whether you accept it or not) dedicating myself to help others in the best way I know how. Do I not deserve at least a little common curtesy? Or should I just sit back and grovel everytime someone gets pissed off with me and decides to tell me I have nothing but arrogance born out of disrespect and insolence towards others – hubris? If I wait for the day when I reach perfection I think I will miss out the opportunity to help a lot of people. I know I have a lot to learn and on that point I thank you for challenging me in this way as it does make me think and work on myself.
You say I am lucky I never was a drug addict. That is very true. But does that mean that drug addicts are the most suffering in society? Don’t be blind to how much other people have suffered and are suffering right now. The world is sadly full of deep and unimaginable suffering. There is no way on earth I would have gone down the eboga path if there were not very, very pressing reasons!
On a last note, I wish you a very successful 2005 and I hope that it is a wonderful year for you. If I can in any way help in that please do not hesitate to contact me. I can only apologise for an offence given. It was not my intention.
Love & Light
Lee
Lorenzo <lorenzo-aguila@excite.com> wrote:
Lee to clarify what I meant to say. Firstly in reading my message, I was rude and there’s no need for that so sorry for that. My point is the same though. I do not at all mind the theological and spiritual discussions that happen here, I rather enjoy them and think them to be part of iboga.
When I use the word hubris in relation to what you write, there are two exact examples I can give in the last some odd days. You enjoy doing ibogaine and I think that’s nice and I am sure that you are making progress in whatever way you think you need to. I do tend to agree more with Nick and think that in some or many ways you are overly complicating the simple but being human I think we all do this.
What I find offensive is your attitude towards all others using ibogaine and your expressed superiority to what they do. A simple example from the last days is your attitude towards the Bwiti. It is their sacred root, they are on this list and you disrespect them. “Hence I think some of the reports coming from the Bwiti would seem to indicate that the doctors there are sometimes a little teetchy, i.e., contrary to others. I think that comes from too much culture/religion and not enough spirituality.”
This is more then a little filled with judgment. My use of the word hubris you so objected to. Thank you I too have dictionary 🙂
What prompted my letter was where you chose to give your view on all addiction. Which was in a post that Howard made which reprinted one of the first or the first, examples of doctors accepting that addiction is not always a psychological choice but instead a biological response that is different for different people. You presuming to fit everyone into your idealogy is maybe again to use that word, hubris.
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason you struggle so much with cigarettes and have such a hard time stopping, when someone else can set them down and simply quit, without doing ibogaine who knows how many times or all this self observation, may have something to do with how your body and genes respond to it, which may be a very different response then that of someone else? Or do you attribute all of it to your psychological problems and this long journey you are on?
In any event you are most likely very lucky that you never did hard drugs 🙂
Happy new years to everyone in the world.
Cheers
Lorenzo
— On Mon 01/03, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:55:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Hi Frances!
Thanks for your strong defense.
Don’t worry. I am not left defenseless after this response from
Lorenzo. I understand where he is coming from and I can only say I am
sorry that my posts sometimes elicit this response but thats to be
expected. I just hope that somehow it can be perceived that I am trying
to ignite and contribute to the spiritual aspects of eboga for those
who will take it and then ask the question:
What next?
Perhaps I could write a lot of dribble in my posts to make them more
paletable but to be honest I rather just shoot from the hip. If I do
become overbearing many apologies.
Love & Light
Lee
The Garden wrote:
Hi Lorenzo !1
With all due respect, but that is only my humble opinion.
You wrote :
> With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the
chance for endless navel gazing. That’s good for you and all but there
would
be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are
many
who smoke pot for the same reason..
* The navel gazing thing at least his god for us as you said, but I will
call this ” introspection ” Called it navel gazing if you wish.that do
not
bother me 🙂
You wrote : there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with
your
opinions
* who told you that Lee wanted to have all the addicts and doctors to
agree
with his views on spirituality ?. I can t speak for Lee, but personaly I
don’t give a dime of the opinion of doctors regarding addiction and
jugement
on the spirituality of addicts.
Unless they prove us that they can have good result on addiction, I will
trust more a Pakistani dishwasher working at Taco Bell than a doctor
regarding my sobriety.
You wrote :To put it into perspective there are countless people who
have
stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages
about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop
smoking,
that was all.
* Good for them, more power to them!! I am happy for them, but
unfortunately
most of smokers are not abble to do so and will die from their
addiction.
By the way you don’t have to do Ibo 50 times to quit smoking. 🙂
* Actualy Lee was sharing about is experience post Ibogaine, not
particularly about his pain.
You wrote : I think all these things give you something to do, but
projecting it all over all others is hubris.
* That your opinion , but you are probably not aware that this is a
Mailing
list on the subject of Ibogaine, about the treatment and the after
effect in
the life of patient who took it. This a list where people share theirs
experience and strenght with complete sincerity and honesty; if that
bother
you you and if you are not used to see real human beings talking about
theirs real experience, I can understand that….. A lot of people hate
sincerity and are seriously disturb by it.
You wrote : “The way I look at addiction” is with a lot of hubris, ego
and
little understanding.
* In fact that exactly how I see your E-Mail. You put in it a lot of
hubris,
ego and very little understanding.
What exactly bother you : the fact that Lee share is deep spirituality
or
is it something else ? Let me know, I am always fascinated by people who
try for no reason to destroy spiritual growth in others.
God Bless
Francis
>
> Cheers
> Lorenzo
>
> — On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A
positive
experience?
>
> Howard,
Thanks for posting those links.
I had a read
through the pdf and if I am
not mistaken it argues that
addiction is
more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than
a particular
personality type.
The way I look on addiction is this:
We
take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional
control
over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad
emotional
states those repressed problems exert nuerologically
speaking, with
good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but
we cannot put
them back up after the substance has worn off and hence
the addiction.
Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic
state prior to
taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive
personality but
I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all
capable of such
character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage
that is
opened.
Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems
imo.
I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few
days I
became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have
been
avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends
the
good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to
the
healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke
practically disappeared.
Another perspective on addiction I
would like to consider is this:
1. What lessons has the period of
addiction taught?
2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person
who fights the
addiction?
I think there is a very positive side
to addiction worth exploring and
one which, as one heals the causes,
one can then as part of the healing
tap into as giving one the sense
that it was not senseless and actually
led someone to where their soul
wanted them to go.
Love & Light,
Lee
HSLotsof@aol.com
wrote:
Dear list,
More than twenty years ago when I was performing
literature searches on
ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology
to support proposed
ibogaine patents
I obtained a copy of Heroin
Addiction – A Metabolic Disease by Drs.
Dole and
Nyswander, the
developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper
remained in my
files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it
and
provided
it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the
Treatment of
Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in
Washington, DC in April
2003
. Most of the papers except for
the
Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora
Weiner Foundation
web page following the conference. There was no
PDF file of the Dole
paper
available and I did not have the
knowledge or time to provide such
then. It is
an amazingly original
paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who
might read it and to
any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded
the respect
in
the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.
All
that being said, Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease is
available as
a
downloadable PDF file from
http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf
Howard
<
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Free copies of
Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media
available
here:
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ALL-NEW Yahoo!
Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
>
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year
period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media /
librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! – http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ot just numbers
Date: January 4, 2005 at 5:32:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Titanic Flea & Tick Panic
Banana fanna fo fanic
Hey Kn0w Be One KeKn0w Be Where…
fuck off.
______________________________________________________________________
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From: knowone knowwhere <kn0m0n3@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ot just numbers
Date: January 4, 2005 at 5:27:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Titanic Flea & Tick Panic
Banana fanna fo fanic
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Att. Lorenzo
Date: January 4, 2005 at 5:20:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lorenzo,
Let me make a few responses to your post:
1. I never ask anyone to believe a word I say.
2. I don’t seek to express superiority. Maybe my ego from time to time gets out of the bag. Bad boy – in you go! However in the same way as someone who has studied their subject and tries to share it with others I don’t pretend to be ignorant of it either. I am sorry if you take that as trying to be superior. Its not my intention.
3. In regards to the Bwiti I mean no disrepect and apologise if some was given. I also prefixed that point with: ‘a reactive thought’. What I stated there is (to my recollection) documented by observers. I imagine that a true eboga doctor would have no problem with the point I made and probably smile. However, i do see your point and once again I apologise for any offense given. I can see how the word hubris would apply there. Apart from this example though I am not aware of it being a regular part of my posts.
4. As far as overcomplicating goes. Look mate I am just sharing my experiences and if you don’t agree with them so be it. Do you want me to keep them quiet because they perhaps challenge you to consider something you haven’t considered before or is it that you feel they are irrelevant to the discussion and thus making matters unnecessarily complicated? Perhaps they are. So perhaps I should seek out a different forum to express them? What do you think? I am open to guidance on that.
4.1 I would add though that these discussions have emerged out of a defense on my part to my analysis of a path to healing and how to deal with that. ie. the ego, the emotional body and the soul. I sometimes am left with no choice but to defend these positions when they are being knocked down so that others can decide for themselves. I consider the notion of “source” only as dangerously simple for a healing journey.
5. You keep saying I enjoy doing ibogaine. With all due respect please read the account of my first ibogaine experience detailed in my book and then you can make an informed opinion.
6. Having said that as time goes by and there are less issues to deal with (which you seem to ignore in your post i.e. the difficulty of dealing with issues) and there are many wonderful aspects to it. Does that offend you?
7. I take offense when you say that I presume to fit everyone into my ideology. For what its worth we are all different and I believe that there are common aspects to all of us which I am trying to document. Each has their own path. I am sharing mine. if everyone took your idea that there were no common traits in humanity, literature would be a lot poorer for it. For what its worth I keep repeating there are many paths.
8. Regarding cigarettes. Does it matter that I keep repeating that I am only using it as an example or are so pissed off with what I have written that you have this idea that I consider myself on a par with other addicts in terms of the problems they have? However, I do consider the possibility that there is a common route to addiction linked to childhood trauma etc. And smoking is an addiction. Its not the major problem in my life. Just a reflection of the state I find myself in from time to time.
9. If you read my post correctly to Howard you would realise I was stating an opinion for discussion. Not laying down the law. Can I not develop ideas and seek responses? Could you not simply have said you disagreed and we could have opened up the discussion?
Finally, in case I have not made it clear I do not consider myself perfect nor never will be. If you find what I write offensive can you at least show a little curtesy in making your point rather than resorting to offensiveness? I am (whether you accept it or not) dedicating myself to help others in the best way I know how. Do I not deserve at least a little common curtesy? Or should I just sit back and grovel everytime someone gets pissed off with me and decides to tell me I have nothing but arrogance born out of disrespect and insolence towards others – hubris? If I wait for the day when I reach perfection I think I will miss out the opportunity to help a lot of people. I know I have a lot to learn and on that point I thank you for challenging me in this way as it does make me think and work on myself.
You say I am lucky I never was a drug addict. That is very true. But does that mean that drug addicts are the most suffering in society? Don’t be blind to how much other people have suffered and are suffering right now. The world is sadly full of deep and unimaginable suffering. There is no way on earth I would have gone down the eboga path if there were not very, very pressing reasons!
On a last note, I wish you a very successful 2005 and I hope that it is a wonderful year for you. If I can in any way help in that please do not hesitate to contact me. I can only apologise for an offence given. It was not my intention.
Love & Light
Lee
Lorenzo <lorenzo-aguila@excite.com> wrote:
Lee to clarify what I meant to say. Firstly in reading my message, I was rude and there’s no need for that so sorry for that. My point is the same though. I do not at all mind the theological and spiritual discussions that happen here, I rather enjoy them and think them to be part of iboga.
When I use the word hubris in relation to what you write, there are two exact examples I can give in the last some odd days. You enjoy doing ibogaine and I think that’s nice and I am sure that you are making progress in whatever way you think you need to. I do tend to agree more with Nick and think that in some or many ways you are overly complicating the simple but being human I think we all do this.
What I find offensive is your attitude towards all others using ibogaine and your expressed superiority to what they do. A simple example from the last days is your attitude towards the Bwiti. It is their sacred root, they are on this list and you disrespect them. “Hence I think some of the reports coming from the Bwiti would seem to indicate that the doctors there are sometimes a little teetchy, i.e., contrary to others. I think that comes from too much culture/religion and not enough spirituality.”
This is more then a little filled with judgment. My use of the word hubris you so objected to. Thank you I too have dictionary 🙂
What prompted my letter was where you chose to give your view on all addiction. Which was in a post that Howard made which reprinted one of the first or the first, examples of doctors accepting that addiction is not always a psychological choice but instead a biological response that is different for different people. You presuming to fit everyone into your idealogy is maybe again to use that word, hubris.
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason you struggle so much with cigarettes and have such a hard time stopping, when someone else can set them down and simply quit, without doing ibogaine who knows how many times or all this self observation, may have something to do with how your body and genes respond to it, which may be a very different response then that of someone else? Or do you attribute all of it to your psychological problems and this long journey you are on?
In any event you are most likely very lucky that you never did hard drugs 🙂
Happy new years to everyone in the world.
Cheers
Lorenzo
— On Mon 01/03, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:55:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Hi Frances!
Thanks for your strong defense.
Don’t worry. I am not left defenseless after this response from
Lorenzo. I understand where he is coming from and I can only say I am
sorry that my posts sometimes elicit this response but thats to be
expected. I just hope that somehow it can be perceived that I am trying
to ignite and contribute to the spiritual aspects of eboga for those
who will take it and then ask the question:
What next?
Perhaps I could write a lot of dribble in my posts to make them more
paletable but to be honest I rather just shoot from the hip. If I do
become overbearing many apologies.
Love & Light
Lee
The Garden wrote:
Hi Lorenzo !1
With all due respect, but that is only my humble opinion.
You wrote :
> With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the
chance for endless navel gazing. That’s good for you and all but there
would
be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are
many
who smoke pot for the same reason..
* The navel gazing thing at least his god for us as you said, but I will
call this ” introspection ” Called it navel gazing if you wish.that do
not
bother me 🙂
You wrote : there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with
your
opinions
* who told you that Lee wanted to have all the addicts and doctors to
agree
with his views on spirituality ?. I can t speak for Lee, but personaly I
don’t give a dime of the opinion of doctors regarding addiction and
jugement
on the spirituality of addicts.
Unless they prove us that they can have good result on addiction, I will
trust more a Pakistani dishwasher working at Taco Bell than a doctor
regarding my sobriety.
You wrote :To put it into perspective there are countless people who
have
stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages
about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop
smoking,
that was all.
* Good for them, more power to them!! I am happy for them, but
unfortunately
most of smokers are not abble to do so and will die from their
addiction.
By the way you don’t have to do Ibo 50 times to quit smoking. 🙂
* Actualy Lee was sharing about is experience post Ibogaine, not
particularly about his pain.
You wrote : I think all these things give you something to do, but
projecting it all over all others is hubris.
* That your opinion , but you are probably not aware that this is a
Mailing
list on the subject of Ibogaine, about the treatment and the after
effect in
the life of patient who took it. This a list where people share theirs
experience and strenght with complete sincerity and honesty; if that
bother
you you and if you are not used to see real human beings talking about
theirs real experience, I can understand that….. A lot of people hate
sincerity and are seriously disturb by it.
You wrote : “The way I look at addiction” is with a lot of hubris, ego
and
little understanding.
* In fact that exactly how I see your E-Mail. You put in it a lot of
hubris,
ego and very little understanding.
What exactly bother you : the fact that Lee share is deep spirituality
or
is it something else ? Let me know, I am always fascinated by people who
try for no reason to destroy spiritual growth in others.
God Bless
Francis
>
> Cheers
> Lorenzo
>
> — On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A
positive
experience?
>
> Howard,
Thanks for posting those links.
I had a read
through the pdf and if I am
not mistaken it argues that
addiction is
more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than
a particular
personality type.
The way I look on addiction is this:
We
take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional
control
over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad
emotional
states those repressed problems exert nuerologically
speaking, with
good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but
we cannot put
them back up after the substance has worn off and hence
the addiction.
Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic
state prior to
taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive
personality but
I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all
capable of such
character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage
that is
opened.
Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems
imo.
I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few
days I
became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have
been
avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends
the
good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to
the
healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke
practically disappeared.
Another perspective on addiction I
would like to consider is this:
1. What lessons has the period of
addiction taught?
2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person
who fights the
addiction?
I think there is a very positive side
to addiction worth exploring and
one which, as one heals the causes,
one can then as part of the healing
tap into as giving one the sense
that it was not senseless and actually
led someone to where their soul
wanted them to go.
Love & Light,
Lee
HSLotsof@aol.com
wrote:
Dear list,
More than twenty years ago when I was performing
literature searches on
ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology
to support proposed
ibogaine patents
I obtained a copy of Heroin
Addiction – A Metabolic Disease by Drs.
Dole and
Nyswander, the
developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper
remained in my
files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it
and
provided
it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the
Treatment of
Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in
Washington, DC in April
2003
. Most of the papers except for
the
Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora
Weiner Foundation
web page following the conference. There was no
PDF file of the Dole
paper
available and I did not have the
knowledge or time to provide such
then. It is
an amazingly original
paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who
might read it and to
any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded
the respect
in
the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.
All
that being said, Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease is
available as
a
downloadable PDF file from
http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf
Howard
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Free copies of
Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media
available
here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo!
Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! – http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>
>
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year
period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media /
librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! – http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot the Anti-Tamazepam
Date: January 4, 2005 at 4:52:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot just numbers
Date: January 4, 2005 at 2:28:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
[a(d)]just numbers :
Geyser Full Pure Water Spring
<boing>
Organic Manic
Titanic Flea & Tick Panic
Rehab Shtick
Click Pick Doblin Quick
Reversing Spirals Polar Rolls
Synthetic War Synthetic Warmth Synthetic Weather
Electric Coffin Buried Alive Therapy Tolls
Coughing
Enlightenment Under Ice Club Ride
Squeaking Treadmills
TMs Cosmic Giggle
River Trickle
Cranberry and Sweet Pickle
Tummy Tickle
Blow Jobs for a Nickel
Beams Triple
Buttery Nipple
Super handi-tard cripple
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Open Access to the Neuropsychopharmacology Online Archive
Date: January 4, 2005 at 2:27:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
For better or worse. For richer for poorer.
Howard
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
FREE access to the Neuropsychopharmacology online archive!*
Neuropsychopharmacology, the official publication of the
American College of Neuropsychopharmacology, publishes the
highest quality original research that advances the
understanding of the brain and behavior.
We are pleased to announce that the journal now offers free
access to its online archive, including full-text articles,
with the exception of articles published within the last 12
months.
To view the online archive, visit the journal’s website at
http://www.neuropsychopharmacology.org any time. Simply click
on any article (more than a year old) from the Archive link on
the homepage.
*Open archive includes all articles published more than 12
months from current issue date. Articles are available in
full-text PDF or HTML format to all site visitors.
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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot (don’t look)
Date: January 4, 2005 at 2:24:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Tiny corkscrew pulls blood clots from brain
Brain surgery robot begins trials
more autonomous
robots would have to be used.
“We would like to make a political system that could
go inside the bloodstream,” Mei told New Scientist.
“Maybe we can make it even smaller using
nanotechnology.”
DNA robot takes its first steps
The underwater astronauts will try to carry out
several procedures
– such as ultrasonic diagnostics and kidney stone
extraction
– under the guidance of surgeons on the surface.
– We need to understand what level of medical
background
– a person needs to be able to carry out medical
procedures, says Williams.
Mei admits that the project is at an early stage but
Baby buckyballs believes remote controlled swimming
machines could be used to deliver drugs to a
particular part of the human body, through the blood
stream.
(Drugs delivered by robots in the blood_)
A microscopic swimming robot unveiled by Chinese
scientists could eventually be used for drug delivery
or to clear arteries in humans, say researchers.
The 3 millimetre-long triangular machine was
constructed by Tao Mei of the Chinese Academy of
Sciences, Beijing, and colleagues from the University
of Science and Technology of China.
The craft is propelled using an external magnetic
field which controls its microscopic fins. The fins
are made from an alloy that contracts in response to
application of the field. Applying the field quickly
makes the tiny submersible paddle forwards and
gradually switching the field off slowly moves the
fins back to their original position.
______________________________________________________________________
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From: Re-Elect Bush/Cheney 08 Or Else <reelectbushcheney2008@yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ototototot
Date: January 4, 2005 at 2:08:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It was McCoy.
2 gram Po Chai bottles C 17 H 17 NO (C2H3O2)2
Heinrich Dreser syringe fraternity rampant Morphinism
agents renamed Army units of the Kuomintang (KMT) and
various CIA involvement in Narcotics trade.
Daily intake
Required specific chemist for operational efficiency.
Quantities of
Dr. John Hill
Dr. Samuel Crumpe
Dr. Samuel Johnson
Dr. John Freitag
Dr. John Jones
Robert Burton –> Anatomy of Melancholy, the problem
of those who were insomniacs by reason of their
continual cares, fears, sorrows, dry brains [which] is
a symptom that much crucifies melancholy men.
Anointing the forehead upon retiring with an
opium-rosewater mixture and applying leeches behind
the ears then rubbing opium into their puncture marks.
Dr. Charles Hunter
***********Dr Fordyce Barker***********
Two of these chains, the heavy (H) chains, are
identical to each other and contain approximately 400
amino acids each. The other two chains, the Light (L)
chains, are also identical to each other, but only
about half as long as each H chain. The four chains
combined form a molecule, called an anti-body monomer
(mon o-mer), with two identical halves, each
consisting of a heavy and light chain. The molecule
as a whole is T or Y shaped.
Nine in the fourth place means:
Yes but-
But nothing! Think about it. The Meaning of Life!
We get our fingers on that we can hold every shrink
in the Galaxy up to ransom, and thats worth a bundle.
I owe mine a mint.
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine]Here
Date: January 4, 2005 at 1:11:23 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeh, it’s not illegal here, I’ve already had some Ibogaine sent here (was not HCL, or anything like I need…) and they also sent lavender, sage and patchouli. The lavender and Patchouli got nabbed by customs cos they thought there might be seeds in it. “rolls eyes”. There wasn’t but they destroyed them anyway. Eejits. So it’s not a prob here, yet….
If there are any providers in NZ, they’re keeping an extremely low profile. I just don’t think it’s made it this far.
Soon………………….
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 4 January 2005 7:02 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Here
Kirsty, trust me they are here. It is illegal in the US and everyone is paranoid for good reason so no one will come out and tell you that “yea, I’m a provider and here’s my address and phone number”, but you can rest assured that most of the major player’s are reading this list. DEA, FDA, FBI included. Why wouldn’t they? In my opinion it would be political suicide for someone to prosecute people for trying to help addicts but, the IRS doesn’t care about politics and that is how they will bust people for doing Ibogaine treatments. Excuse me while I look out the window to see if the man is coming to get me. I know they are out there………..did you here that? I swear to God I didn’t do anything illegal… well, not that illegal anyway. I’m not a provider but I know some, and they keep a real low profile. Everywhere else in the world it is pretty much ignored. Randy
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT/earthquake-tsunami….
Date: January 4, 2005 at 1:08:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey thar,
Has anyone seen the movie, the Core? Centre of the earth stops spinning and weather goes nutz on the planet. Including a full on thunder storm (static burst from earth core or summink….) anywayyyyyyy to cut a long story short….. we had a very minor version of the storm on the same day as the earthquake, a thunderstorm that went on and on for about an hour, constant electrical flashes and constant thunder…we never get storms like that here. Dunedin probly has the most boring weather on the planet…..
Related?
Very probably……bit scary to see the movie after the storm!
Well, thought it might interest.
Kirk
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From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Here
Date: January 4, 2005 at 1:02:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Kirsty, trust me they are here. It is illegal in the US and everyone is paranoid for good reason so no one will come out and tell you that “yea, I’m a provider and here’s my address and phone number”, but you can rest assured that most of the major player’s are reading this list. DEA, FDA, FBI included. Why wouldn’t they? In my opinion it would be political suicide for someone to prosecute people for trying to help addicts but, the IRS doesn’t care about politics and that is how they will bust people for doing Ibogaine treatments. Excuse me while I look out the window to see if the man is coming to get me. I know they are out there………..did you here that? I swear to God I didn’t do anything illegal… well, not that illegal anyway. I’m not a provider but I know some, and they keep a real low profile. Everywhere else in the world it is pretty much ignored. Randy
From: Mauro Solorzano <msolorza@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: unsubscribe
Date: January 3, 2005 at 11:15:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Leah, I love you. We can work this out baby,
Don’t you know how special it is, huh?
just kidding.
On Monday, January 03, 2005, at 05:51PM, Leah martian <martian_9@graffiti.net> wrote:
nothing personal.
so am i unsubscribed?
—– Original Message —–
From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Leah martian
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 15:22:21 -0800 (PST)
Leah martian, why? we coulda been something. this could have been special.
i think i miss you already.
shitfucklife.
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 3, 2005 at 7:58:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“looking around” Where???
lol
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 4 January 2005 4:58 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Kirsty, there ARE providers here. Randy
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 3, 2005 at 7:55:30 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Not as yet, I am mentioning it to people though… so we’ll see. Why, do you think someone would come over if we all pitched in??
:o)
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, 4 January 2005 1:04 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Kirsty,
Are you the only one interested in doing ibogaine in NZ are are there more?
Lee
Kirsty Sutherland <captkirk@kol.co.nz> wrote:
Hi Lee,
Not as yet, I’m still looking and hoping. I have a couple in mind, who do healing stuff and are in contact with “the other side”……..very awesome people, figure if I can get them onboard and talking to a provider about what to do and what not…….
We need some Providers here!!
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, 3 January 2005 3:12 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Kirsty,
Do you have a provider down in NZ?
Lee
Kirsty Sutherland <captkirk@kol.co.nz> wrote:
Hi Steve, and welcome to this list!
You’ll get to know some awesome people here from all over the world. Most of us are/were addicted to something or everything at some stage, the reason why I like this list so much…. There’s addicts at all stages of addiction! Where else could you see this?
Just stick around and you’ll read about experiences, and discover if it’s something for you…then you can take it from there.
I’m relatively new to this list, but I love being here and reading the emails. Topics are varied.
I’m also addicted to opiates for many years and I’m looking at Ibogaine treatment, hopefully sometime this year.. it’s all relative to the ole $$ … sadly.
So, welcome again, enjoy your stay :o)
Kirsty
Aka captain kirk
New Zealand
From: stowe01@comcast.net [mailto:stowe01@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, 2 January 2005 6:53 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—– From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didn’t find Krisnamurti – I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didn’t work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesn’t matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going…a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle….
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. “Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.”
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. “NO MIND”, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. “The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.”
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. “My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.”
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of “NO MIND” as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: “You are unclean. You touched that woman!” He replied: “I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.”
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
”spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
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http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
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From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: unsubscribe
Date: January 3, 2005 at 6:04:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
nothing personal? you only broke my heart.
go here babe. http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
nothing personal.
so am i unsubscribed?
—– Original Message —–
From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Leah martian
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 15:22:21 -0800 (PST)
Leah martian, why? we coulda been something. this could have been
special.
i think i miss you already.
shitfucklife.
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From: “Lorenzo” <lorenzo-aguila@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Date: January 3, 2005 at 5:57:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lee to clarify what I meant to say. Firstly in reading my message, I was rude and there’s no need for that so sorry for that. My point is the same though. I do not at all mind the theological and spiritual discussions that happen here, I rather enjoy them and think them to be part of iboga.
When I use the word hubris in relation to what you write, there are two exact examples I can give in the last some odd days. You enjoy doing ibogaine and I think that’s nice and I am sure that you are making progress in whatever way you think you need to. I do tend to agree more with Nick and think that in some or many ways you are overly complicating the simple but being human I think we all do this.
What I find offensive is your attitude towards all others using ibogaine and your expressed superiority to what they do. A simple example from the last days is your attitude towards the Bwiti. It is their sacred root, they are on this list and you disrespect them. “Hence I think some of the reports coming from the Bwiti would seem to indicate that the doctors there are sometimes a little teetchy, i.e., contrary to others. I think that comes from too much culture/religion and not enough spirituality.”
This is more then a little filled with judgment. My use of the word hubris you so objected to. Thank you I too have dictionary 🙂
What prompted my letter was where you chose to give your view on all addiction. Which was in a post that Howard made which reprinted one of the first or the first, examples of doctors accepting that addiction is not always a psychological choice but instead a biological response that is different for different people. You presuming to fit everyone into your idealogy is maybe again to use that word, hubris.
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason you struggle so much with cigarettes and have such a hard time stopping, when someone else can set them down and simply quit, without doing ibogaine who knows how many times or all this self observation, may have something to do with how your body and genes respond to it, which may be a very different response then that of someone else? Or do you attribute all of it to your psychological problems and this long journey you are on?
In any event you are most likely very lucky that you never did hard drugs 🙂
Happy new years to everyone in the world.
Cheers
Lorenzo
— On Mon 01/03, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:55:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Hi Frances!<br> <br>Thanks for your strong defense.<br> <br>Don’t worry. I am not left defenseless after this response from <br>Lorenzo. I understand where he is coming from and I can only say I am <br>sorry that my posts sometimes elicit this response but thats to be <br>expected. I just hope that somehow it can be perceived that I am trying <br>to ignite and contribute to the spiritual aspects of eboga for those <br>who will take it and then ask the question:<br> <br>What next?<br> <br>Perhaps I could write a lot of dribble in my posts to make them more <br>paletable but to be honest I rather just shoot from the hip. If I do <br>become overbearing many apologies.<br> <br>Love & Light<br> <br>Lee<br> <br><br><br>The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:<br>Hi Lorenzo !1<br><br>With all due respect, but that is only my humble opinion.<br><br><br>You wrote :<br> > With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the<br>chance for endless navel gazing. That’s good for you and all but there <br>would<br>be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are <br>many<br>who smoke pot for the same reason..<br><br>* The navel gazing thing at least his god for us as you said, but I will<br>call this ” introspection ” Called it navel gazing if you wish.that do <br>not<br>bother me :-)<br><br>You wrote : there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with <br>your<br>opinions<br>* who told you that Lee wanted to have all the addicts and doctors to <br>agree<br>with his views on spirituality ?. I can t speak for Lee, but personaly I<br>don’t give a dime of the opinion of doctors regarding addiction and <br>jugement<br>on the spirituality of addicts.<br>Unless they prove us that they can have good result on addiction, I will<br>trust more a Pakistani dishwasher working at Taco Bell than a doctor<br>regarding my sobriety.<br><br>You wrote :To put it into perspective there are countless people who <br>have<br>stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages<br>about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop <br>smoking,<br>that was all.<br><br><br>* Good for them, more power to them!! I am happy for them, but <br>unfortunately<br>most of smokers are not abble to do so and will die from their <br>addiction.<br>By the way you don’t have to do Ibo 50 times to quit smoking. :-)<br>* Actualy Lee was sharing about is experience post Ibogaine, not<br>particularly about his pain.<br><br>You wrote : I think all these things give you something to do, but<br>projecting it all over all others is hubris.<br><br>* That your opinion , but you are probably not aware that this is a <br>Mailing<br>list on the subject of Ibogaine, about the treatment and the after <br>effect in<br>the life of patient who took it. This a list where people share theirs<br>experience and strenght with complete sincerity and honesty; if that <br>bother<br>you you and if you are not used to see real human beings talking about<br>theirs real experience, I can understand that….. A lot of people hate<br>sincerity and are seriously disturb by it.<br><br><br><br>You wrote : “The way I look at addiction” is with a lot of hubris, ego <br>and<br>little understanding.<br><br>* In fact that exactly how I see your E-Mail. You put in it a lot of <br>hubris,<br>ego and very little understanding.<br>What exactly bother you : the fact that Lee share is deep spirituality <br>or<br>is it something else ? Let me know, I am always fascinated by people who<br>try for no reason to destroy spiritual growth in others.<br><br>God Bless<br>Francis<br> ><br> > Cheers<br> > Lorenzo<br> ><br> > — On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:<br> > From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]<br> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com<br> > Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)<br> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A <br>positive<br>experience?<br> ><br> > Howard,<br><br>Thanks for posting those links.<br><br>I had a read<br>through the pdf and if I am
not mistaken it argues that<br> addiction is<br>more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than<br> a particular<br>personality type.<br><br>The way I look on addiction is this:<br><br>We<br>take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional<br> control<br>over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad<br> emotional<br>states those repressed problems exert nuerologically<br> speaking, with<br>good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but<br> we cannot put<br>them back up after the substance has worn off and hence<br> the addiction.<br>Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic<br> state prior to<br>taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive<br> personality but<br>I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all<br> capable of such<br>character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage<br> that is<br>opened.<br><br>Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems<br>imo.<br><br>I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few<br>days I<br>became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have<br>been<br> avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends<br>the<br> good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to<br>the<br> healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke<br><br>practically disappeared.<br><br>Another perspective on addiction I<br>would like to consider is this:<br><br>1. What lessons has the period of<br>addiction taught?<br>2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person<br>who fights the<br> addiction?<br><br>I think there is a very positive side<br>to addiction worth exploring and<br> one which, as one heals the causes,<br>one can then as part of the healing<br> tap into as giving one the sense<br>that it was not senseless and actually<br> led someone to where their soul<br>wanted them to go.<br><br>Love & Light,<br><br>Lee<br><br>HSLotsof@aol.com<br>wrote:<br>Dear list,<br><br>More than twenty years ago when I was performing<br>literature searches on<br>ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology<br>to support proposed<br> ibogaine patents<br>I obtained a copy of Heroin<br>Addiction – A Metabolic Disease by Drs.<br> Dole and<br>Nyswander, the<br>developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper<br>remained in my<br>files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it<br>and<br>provided<br>it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the<br><br>Treatment of<br>Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in<br>Washington, DC in April<br> 2003<br>. Most of the papers except for<br>the<br>Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora<br><br>Weiner Foundation<br>web page following the conference. There was no<br>PDF file of the Dole<br> paper<br>available and I did not have the<br>knowledge or time to provide such<br> then. It is<br>an amazingly original<br>paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who<br>might read it and to<br>any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded<br> the respect<br>in<br>the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.<br><br>All<br>that being said, Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease is<br>available as<br>a<br>downloadable PDF file from<br><br>http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf<br><br>Howard<br><br><<br>br>/]=—————————————————————— <br>—<br><br> =[\<br>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:<br><br>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html<br>[%]<br>\]=——————————————————————<br>—<br>=[/<br><br><br><br><br>http://www.my-eboga.com<br><br>Free copies of<br>Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media<br> available<br>here:<br><br>www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html<br><br><br>ALL-NEW Yahoo!<br>Messenger – all new features – even more fun!<br><br> ><br> > _______________________________________________<br> > Join Excite! – http://www.excite.com<br> > The most personalized portal on the Web!<br> ><br> ><br> ><br>/]=———-
———————————————————– <br>=[\<br> > [%] Ibogaine List Commands: <br>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html<br>[%]<br> ><br>\]=——————————————————————— <br>=[/<br> ><br> ><br><br><br><br>/]=——————————————————————— <br>=[\<br>[%] Ibogaine List Commands: <br>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]<br>\]=——————————————————————— <br>=[/<br><br><br><br><br>Author: Amazing Grace<br> <br>A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year <br>period.<br> <br>www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html<br> <br>Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / <br>librarians etc:<br> <br>www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html<br> <br><br>
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From: “Leah martian” <martian_9@graffiti.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: unsubscribe
Date: January 3, 2005 at 5:50:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
nothing personal.
so am i unsubscribed?
—– Original Message —–
From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Leah martian
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 15:22:21 -0800 (PST)
Leah martian, why? we coulda been something. this could have been special.
i think i miss you already.
shitfucklife.
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Date: January 3, 2005 at 2:55:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Frances!
Thanks for your strong defense.
Don’t worry. I am not left defenseless after this response from Lorenzo. I understand where he is coming from and I can only say I am sorry that my posts sometimes elicit this response but thats to be expected. I just hope that somehow it can be perceived that I am trying to ignite and contribute to the spiritual aspects of eboga for those who will take it and then ask the question:
What next?
Perhaps I could write a lot of dribble in my posts to make them more paletable but to be honest I rather just shoot from the hip. If I do become overbearing many apologies.
Love & Light
Lee
The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Lorenzo !1
With all due respect, but that is only my humble opinion.
You wrote :
> With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the
chance for endless navel gazing. That’s good for you and all but there would
be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are many
who smoke pot for the same reason..
* The navel gazing thing at least his god for us as you said, but I will
call this ” introspection ” Called it navel gazing if you wish.that do not
bother me 🙂
You wrote : there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your
opinions
* who told you that Lee wanted to have all the addicts and doctors to agree
with his views on spirituality ?. I can t speak for Lee, but personaly I
don’t give a dime of the opinion of doctors regarding addiction and jugement
on the spirituality of addicts.
Unless they prove us that they can have good result on addiction, I will
trust more a Pakistani dishwasher working at Taco Bell than a doctor
regarding my sobriety.
You wrote :To put it into perspective there are countless people who have
stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages
about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop smoking,
that was all.
* Good for them, more power to them!! I am happy for them, but unfortunately
most of smokers are not abble to do so and will die from their addiction.
By the way you don’t have to do Ibo 50 times to quit smoking. 🙂
* Actualy Lee was sharing about is experience post Ibogaine, not
particularly about his pain.
You wrote : I think all these things give you something to do, but
projecting it all over all others is hubris.
* That your opinion , but you are probably not aware that this is a Mailing
list on the subject of Ibogaine, about the treatment and the after effect in
the life of patient who took it. This a list where people share theirs
experience and strenght with complete sincerity and honesty; if that bother
you you and if you are not used to see real human beings talking about
theirs real experience, I can understand that….. A lot of people hate
sincerity and are seriously disturb by it.
You wrote : “The way I look at addiction” is with a lot of hubris, ego and
little understanding.
* In fact that exactly how I see your E-Mail. You put in it a lot of hubris,
ego and very little understanding.
What exactly bother you : the fact that Lee share is deep spirituality or
is it something else ? Let me know, I am always fascinated by people who
try for no reason to destroy spiritual growth in others.
God Bless
Francis
>
> Cheers
> Lorenzo
>
> — On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive
experience?
>
> Howard,
Thanks for posting those links.
I had a read
through the pdf and if I am not mistaken it argues that
addiction is
more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than
a particular
personality type.
The way I look on addiction is this:
We
take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional
control
over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad
emotional
states those repressed problems exert nuerologically
speaking, with
good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but
we cannot put
them back up after the substance has worn off and hence
the addiction.
Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic
state prior to
taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive
personality but
I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all
capable of such
character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage
that is
opened.
Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems
imo.
I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few
days I
became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have
been
avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends
the
good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to
the
healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke
practically disappeared.
Another perspective on addiction I
would like to consider is this:
1. What lessons has the period of
addiction taught?
2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person
who fights the
addiction?
I think there is a very positive side
to addiction worth exploring and
one which, as one heals the causes,
one can then as part of the healing
tap into as giving one the sense
that it was not senseless and actually
led someone to where their soul
wanted them to go.
Love & Light,
Lee
HSLotsof@aol.com
wrote:
Dear list,
More than twenty years ago when I was performing
literature searches on
ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology
to support proposed
ibogaine patents
I obtained a copy of Heroin
Addiction – A Metabolic Disease by Drs.
Dole and
Nyswander, the
developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper
remained in my
files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it
and
provided
it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the
Treatment of
Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in
Washington, DC in April
2003
. Most of the papers except for
the
Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora
Weiner Foundation
web page following the conference. There was no
PDF file of the Dole
paper
available and I did not have the
knowledge or time to provide such
then. It is
an amazingly original
paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who
might read it and to
any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded
the respect
in
the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.
All
that being said, Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease is
available as
a
downloadable PDF file from
http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf
Howard
<
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http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of
Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media
available
here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo!
Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! – http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>
>
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 3, 2005 at 2:46:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Frances,
It might be overstating it to say it is a magic bullet. However for opiate dependence it does seem that a session and perhaps a follow up leads to complete elimination of physical withdrawal. In that sense, yes, it is a magic bullet. But the full cure is quite demanding and involves self encounter over a period of time, as I am sure you are aware.
Lee
The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Steve !!
Never used it for now. I am getting a session around Mai. I have been reading everything on this plant for the past six month and is no doubt in my mind that this is the way to go to get rid of most addictions. I truly believe that Ibogaine is a kind of magic bullet to get clean.
Now,I hate to write this because this will offend few readers : but I believe also that a work on the personality of the user have to be done, new skills have to be learnt. Group therapy or NA could help to teach how to live clean.
I now that some facilitators are on this list, and they will help you .Where do you live Steve ? In wich state.?
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[
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http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] guns/table : easy to read
Date: January 3, 2005 at 11:12:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Francis, do you think gun control will keep evil people from being evil? Won’t happen. Murder, suicide, mayhem and general madness will go on forever. I for one would like to see a place where you don’t have to worry about these assholes with guns. I knew it once. A family farm in KY where we left our doors unlocked and no one ever came on our land and disrespected us. Ever. We hunted for food and pleasure. Everyone had guns. No one got murdered in Robertson County ever that I know of. Firearms were a way of life. Without them we wouldn’t be who we are. The people on my Mom’s side of the family were here for the Revolutionary War. They had guns and they used them then. Good thing. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 3, 2005 at 10:58:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Kirsty, there ARE providers here. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Comparing/Contrasting
Date: January 3, 2005 at 10:54:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I hope that Desert Eagle is in 50 caliber A and E. Randy
From: Dana Beal <dana@phantom.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] U.K. Set to ban living mushrooms
Date: January 3, 2005 at 9:23:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
indymedia.org.uk::Forwarded Article
save our MAGIC MUSHROOMS!!!
Yet again the government are trying to crack down on our rights to choose. This week labour has proposed ammedments to the law to make all sale and use of magic mushrooms illegal.
Yet again the government are trying to crack down on our rights to choose. This week labour has proposed ammedments to the law to make all sale and use of magic mushrooms illegal. Up untill now any preparation and consumption of mushrooms has been considered illegal, but using and selling them as long as they are fresh has not been stopped. The proposed amendments will make any possession of them, irrespective of whether they are dried or not, a class a offence. This means mushrooms will be on par with crack, heroin and cocaine, and punishable by life imprisonment if judged to be selling them.
I personally believe all drugs should be legal, as prohibition creates more problems than solutions, however thats another argument for another day.
However the case of keeping mushrooms legal is particularly important. The reasons are numerous. First and foremost, they are a matter of personal choice, and no government should decide what one can and cannot fill their own body with.
Furthermore, Britain has several varieties of native magic mushroom, and it would be absurd to ban a naturally occurring plant. It would be like outlawing brambles, or sycamores!!
This poses the further question, are landowners who have magic mushrooms growing on their land breaking the law? Watch out farmers of Britain!!
Banning mushrooms would also be banning age old tradition. Throughout the history of our country, magic mushrooms have been used to enlighten and open eyes. Its part of our culture, and has been for millennia.
Moreover, its a victimless crime! No one has ever died from eating magic mushrooms. Nor are they part of drug trafficking or gang crime. More often than not, mushrooms are either grown or picked by individuals and passed on to friends and associates, but not traffic-d.
These are only some of the reasons for keeping mushrooms legal and there are many more. Just remember, a crack down of civil liberties and right affects EVERYONE.
– WE DONT WANT STATE CONTROLED FUN!!
Attached comment from goodjeff:
As you know Magic Mushroom are bein gsold everywhere even by Asian stallholders and now the government wants to stop it…Blair seems more interested in this than the Tsunami….Happy New Year, GoodJeff(Kate’s stepdad) in Oxford
http://publish.uk.indymedia.org/en/2004/12/302975.html
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 3, 2005 at 7:03:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Kirsty,
Are you the only one interested in doing ibogaine in NZ are are there more?
Lee
Kirsty Sutherland <captkirk@kol.co.nz> wrote:
Hi Lee,
Not as yet, Im still looking and hoping. I have a couple in mind, who do healing stuff and are in contact with the other side
..very awesome people, figure if I can get them onboard and talking to a provider about what to do and what not
.
We need some Providers here!!
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, 3 January 2005 3:12 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Kirsty,
Do you have a provider down in NZ?
Lee
Kirsty Sutherland <captkirk@kol.co.nz> wrote:
Hi Steve, and welcome to this list!
Youll get to know some awesome people here from all over the world. Most of us are/were addicted to something or everything at some stage, the reason why I like this list so much
. Theres addicts at all stages of addiction! Where else could you see this?
Just stick around and youll read about experiences, and discover if its something for you
then you can take it from there.
Im relatively new to this list, but I love being here and reading the emails. Topics are varied.
Im also addicted to opiates for many years and Im looking at Ibogaine treatment, hopefully sometime this year.. its all relative to the ole $$
sadly.
So, welcome again, enjoy your stay :o)
Kirsty
Aka captain kirk
New Zealand
From: stowe01@comcast.net [mailto:stowe01@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, 2 January 2005 6:53 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—– From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
”spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
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www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
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From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 3, 2005 at 1:59:42 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Lee,
Not as yet, I’m still looking and hoping. I have a couple in mind, who do healing stuff and are in contact with “the other side”……..very awesome people, figure if I can get them onboard and talking to a provider about what to do and what not…….
We need some Providers here!!
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, 3 January 2005 3:12 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Kirsty,
Do you have a provider down in NZ?
Lee
Kirsty Sutherland <captkirk@kol.co.nz> wrote:
Hi Steve, and welcome to this list!
You’ll get to know some awesome people here from all over the world. Most of us are/were addicted to something or everything at some stage, the reason why I like this list so much…. There’s addicts at all stages of addiction! Where else could you see this?
Just stick around and you’ll read about experiences, and discover if it’s something for you…then you can take it from there.
I’m relatively new to this list, but I love being here and reading the emails. Topics are varied.
I’m also addicted to opiates for many years and I’m looking at Ibogaine treatment, hopefully sometime this year.. it’s all relative to the ole $$ … sadly.
So, welcome again, enjoy your stay :o)
Kirsty
Aka captain kirk
New Zealand
From: stowe01@comcast.net [mailto:stowe01@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, 2 January 2005 6:53 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—– From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didn’t find Krisnamurti – I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didn’t work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesn’t matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going…a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle….
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. “Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.”
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. “NO MIND”, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. “The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.”
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. “My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.”
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of “NO MIND” as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: “You are unclean. You touched that woman!” He replied: “I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.”
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
”spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
— Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 – Release Date: 12/28/2004
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Comparing/Contrasting
Date: January 2, 2005 at 7:10:08 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Amazing contrast, specialy in jpg number two. Very scary young wolf.
You look now like another man,
You can be proud of yourself .
Keep preciously the Jpeg because sometimes it’s necessary to remember the
crazyness of the disease.
I cant wait to see Jpeg number 4 a month after Ibo 🙂
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: <nruhtra@dsskcorp.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 5:35 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Comparing/Contrasting
A visual comparison of three different stages of junkiedom with noted
effect on the physical appearance.
++ As told by a Canon Powershot
++ Subject: A Junky Scum
Pic 01: [ junky.jpg ] . beginning of daily use of heroin, smoked on tin
foil via hollowed out Bic pen. Street grease living a rich kid’s life.
Pic 02: [ uberjunky.jpg ] . everyday intravenous heroin user (as seen in a
McDonalds bathroom toilet shit smell stall – 16th and Mission, a.k.a Kung
Fu.). Unkempt, uptight, and all around piece of shit human being (human
being, borderline) ; unless pre, during or post getting off.
Pic 03: [ zerojunkyallocated.jpg ] . Four months no heroin via cold
turkey. Happy(ier), cleaner, emancipated, standing in the freezing cold
and enjoying it, rockin’ the vibes of the Ol’ fuckin Mississippi right
behind me, experiencing transcendence, and thinking about Latin American
beaches and firing off nickel plated Desert Eagles into the ocean.
—————————————————————————-
—-
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
[%]
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[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Leah martian
Date: January 2, 2005 at 6:22:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Leah martian, why? we coulda been something. this could have been special.
i think i miss you already.
shitfucklife.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Leah martian” <martian_9@graffiti.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: unsubscribe
Date: January 2, 2005 at 5:50:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Comparing/Contrasting
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:35:13 -0800 (PST)
A visual comparison of three different stages of junkiedom with noted
effect on the physical appearance.
++ As told by a Canon Powershot
++ Subject: A Junky Scum
Pic 01: [ junky.jpg ] . beginning of daily use of heroin, smoked on tin
foil via hollowed out Bic pen. Street grease living a rich kids life.
Pic 02: [ uberjunky.jpg ] . everyday intravenous heroin user (as seen in a
McDonalds bathroom toilet shit smell stall – 16th and Mission, a.k.a Kung
Fu.). Unkempt, uptight, and all around piece of shit human being (human
being, borderline) ; unless pre, during or post getting off.
Pic 03: [ zerojunkyallocated.jpg ] . Four months no heroin via cold
turkey. Happy(ier), cleaner, emancipated, standing in the freezing cold
and enjoying it, rockin’ the vibes of the Ol’ fuckin Mississippi right
behind me, experiencing transcendence, and thinking about Latin American
beaches and firing off nickel plated Desert Eagles into the ocean.
<< junky.jpg >>
<< uberjunky.jpg >>
<< zerojunkyallocated.jpg >>
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—
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Check out our value-added Premium features, such as a 1 GB mailbox for just US$9.95 per year!
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From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Comparing/Contrasting
Date: January 2, 2005 at 5:35:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
A visual comparison of three different stages of junkiedom with noted
effect on the physical appearance.
++ As told by a Canon Powershot
++ Subject: A Junky Scum
Pic 01: [ junky.jpg ] . beginning of daily use of heroin, smoked on tin
foil via hollowed out Bic pen. Street grease living a rich kids life.
Pic 02: [ uberjunky.jpg ] . everyday intravenous heroin user (as seen in a
McDonalds bathroom toilet shit smell stall – 16th and Mission, a.k.a Kung
Fu.). Unkempt, uptight, and all around piece of shit human being (human
being, borderline) ; unless pre, during or post getting off.
Pic 03: [ zerojunkyallocated.jpg ] . Four months no heroin via cold
turkey. Happy(ier), cleaner, emancipated, standing in the freezing cold
and enjoying it, rockin’ the vibes of the Ol’ fuckin Mississippi right
behind me, experiencing transcendence, and thinking about Latin American
beaches and firing off nickel plated Desert Eagles into the ocean.
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <JasenHappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 4:49:48 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Steve,
Your excited are you,..I understand,.I am still excited. 🙂
I did my treatment in Holland, Amsterdam. All I can say
is WOW.
I took Iboga which is the whole plant extract,..and took this
extract with a remarkable woman called Sara.
I hear Ibogaine is also great.
Sara is in Amsterdam,..her basic treatment is 1500 Euro.
It is done in a family environment, which for me was
wholesome and healing.
The price includes home cooked meals and accommodation.
Sara even picks you up from the airport,you are very well
looked after. Sara is a Shaman healer.
The Iboga took away a lot of the underlying reasons to
be anesthetised, it worked beautifully for me.
The first few days of taking iboga I had no withdrawals,
then I started to get up to 15% withdrawals,..however they
were shallow,..not annoying me on an emotional or soul
level. Like I had the flu and new it would pass.
As the saying goes,”this too shall pass”
I was also on Methadone,..which takes longer
to come off.
The Iboga filled me with love untill I overflowed, it
showed me many things,..confirmed things I felt
to be true,..and also showed me situations where I thought I
was so right,..when I was so so wrong.
There are many beautiful people on this list that will assist
you,..if they could they would reach inside you and pull out
all the hurt, blockages and clear your addiction.
Iboga did this for me,.allot of beautiful people put there
hands inside me and pulled out all the sh*t,..90% of it.
I believe the Iboga doesn’t take it all away for a reason,
it leaves a little behind,..I believe,..so you have something
strong to rise up from,..like the yin changing to the yang.
I don’t know about the treatment you speak off, however
I have tried many and this is the only one that has worked for me.
If we talk on the list,it may help others that are thinking of doing this treatment.
I am excited Steve.
with love.Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Jason,
Thanks so much!!! You have to know how excited that I am getting right now with all this positive feedback. I really want off this stuff. Even though I believe that I actually use for the next year without trouble. I dont care. I can easily afford my habit which is about $100 a day. I am not a veteran drug guy. I never even tried a drug until 3 years ago and I was 37. Most people that I read about has had this problrm for years. But I recognize it has to stop NOW!!! Please tell me as much as you can about where you did it? How was it? How much did it cost? Did you have any Withdraws during it? After it? Are you Struggling now? Jusy anything that you can help me. GOD will bless you for helping people and I promise I am going to help people. I have access to money to help promote this more if it helps me the way that it has you. By the way is this definitely the best way .Is the Anesthnesia Rapid detox better or worse or what. I know I am asking alot but if you dont mind I would love your number so that we could talk(I am not a stalker just very excited) or I can give you mine. Just let me know .
With Love,
Steve
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] Schedule of events for the Bush presidency.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 3:52:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Dear List,
I was wondering if anyone had the answers to these questions:
I’ll do my best to help Lee 😉
1. How long will it be before American muslims are placed in
internment
camps?
This could take a long time, it might not even happen because the
highest selling genre of music is rap and many of the rappers are both
black and muslim 😉 I think Bush makes exceptions for black’s who are
multi millionaire rappers or active in sports 😉 The rap industry also
doesn’t look to have any problems with Bush, Eminem, 50 Cent, Dre, more
that I can’t think of right now have all boasted in their cd’s in songs
filled with lyrics about killing people, ‘I’m what would happen if Bush
rapped’ Bush is a badass murderer. They support him 🙂
Except Suge Knight from Death Row records. In spite of being almost a
billionaire he is still serving life in prison for murder. With his
lawyers that means he will be in prison for at least 2 more years. I am
sure he would support Bush even more if he was given a pardon because
he’s very rich and doesn’t belong in prison.
Then I was wondering how long more it would be before gays who
wish to get married followed by any other group in society deemed a
threat or social nuisance. Will it affect house prices?
The gays might go sooner, neither the Republicans or Rappers like the
gays.
2. Does anyone happen to know what the final death count will be in
Iraq? I am curious as I am just wondering if the Iraqis can have more
Can’t help you with this one.
babies so as to offset the numbers? Perhaps if they can be
Christianised and told its God’s law not to use a condom and to make
babies for the fatherland. What would be a good number or does it
really matter? Whats a life anyway, heh!
3. What is the total number of new arms that will be manufactured and
will the arms industry be given sufficient support to build advanced
weapons systems? Its better we aren’t too close when we let them off.
Maybe Brett knows 🙂
4. Do you think it will be possible to convince people of an upcoming
social security crises so we can privatise the industry and give the
financial services a much needed break after the bitter years of the
last crash? Hopefully by then the planet will be unihabitable so the
issue will be obselete.
The issue is already obsolete, this already happened. Social Security
is already privitized, Bush did that in the last couple years, if the
final papers haven’t yet been signed I think thats only a technicality.
Maybe they’ll fit it into latest version of the pariot act.
5. Given that we now have possibly managed to miss the deadline to
clean up the environment, do you think we can keep this up and secure
the energy industry as the planet visibly deteriorates around us? (It
might be tough if and when the ice shelf cracks and the global
currents
are thrown off.) Remember its the last man with the most money wins!
Heh Heh!!!!
Should be interesting to watch, except I won’t be here.
6. Have arrangements been made in all the major population centers
for
the mass transportation of dissenters to detention centers following
demonstrations, publication of emails to incite dissent, dissent
against government…. If so which city is the best organised to
handle
a 100,000?
Finally if you are looking for a tip on the stock market I would look
at kits to build nuclear fall out shelters, radiation protection and
anything that generally relates to human disaster. I think there will
be a boom in that side of the market.
Brett? What are the best stocks?
.:vector:.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 3:26:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi steve
His email is brian@ibogainetreatment.net, and he has a web site www.ibogaine .net the site is unfinished but there is useful info on there. Gather as much information as possible, the people on this list have experienced the ibo so you we can learn so much from them. This Brian guy sounds good i spoke to a guy named mark and he was on heroin for years, brian treated him and he is clean that was coming up for a year now. Brian is from Prague I dont know if he would travel to the states, he said he would to the UK if i payed his airfare, he comes to your home treats you and when you are ok he goes, i am in the process of saving to have this done but email him he seems really nice.
Love Donna
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 3:13:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Steve, I’m not a addict and most of what I’ve learned about
addiction is from being on this list for nearly 4 years so in some way
I may have accidentally became more knowledgeable about addiction then
I ever planned to be 😉
The person who runs MindVox, has a whole series of ibogaine articles
published starting with less then 6 months clean and continuing for 2
or 3 years after that.
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/index.html?Articles/HeroinTimes.html~mainFrame
Patrick was on methadone, heroin and xanax and maybe something else I
forgot, I’m sure he or someone else will correct me if I’m wrong 🙂 He
does write about doing ultra rapid opiate detox twice or three times
and everything else, he was another person like you who had a lot of
money and kept going to doctors. He didn’t rate any of them very high
😉
He finally detoxed with Deborah Mash in St. Kitts, but that was 5 or 6
years ago and his experience was different then a lot of other people’s
because being tactful 😉 he has a different relationship with her then
most other people 😉 so what he got and what everybody else gets there,
might not be the same story 🙂 🙂
If you have a lot of money, the medical ibogaine detoxes that I know
about are St. Kitts and Mexico
http://www.ibogaine.net
http://www.ibogaine-therapy.net
Though I get the idea St. Kitts may have changed a lot in 6 years and
now people say they keep you sick there and the same about Mexico.
There are lots of people on the list who have detoxed at both. I think
what both centers have in common is that they have their program and
you will follow their program and not get what you want, which is where
all the other ibogaine places will work with you differently.
The best places to look on MindVox are Articles, Keeping Clean and
Links.
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com
For treatment I think you are already in the best place, right here 🙂
I’m sure a lot of people can write you email and help you get ibogaine
and you can pick what sounds the best for you.
Happy New Year to everybody!
.:vector:.
— stowe01@comcast.net wrote:
I live in the U.S would he travel here? I would love that. If so do
you have a number for him?
————– Original message ————–
Hi Steve
I am looking to do the ibo in the new year there is a guy called
Brian
who comes to your home to treat you he charges ฃ600 plus his expenses
are you in the UK??? talk to Jasen about what he experienced he was
so
helpful. I wish you all the luck in the world
:Love donna
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Date: January 2, 2005 at 2:13:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 02 January 2005 14:50
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Nick wrote:
I am just offering that you point your attention back toward your actual identity, back before the mind’s conception of who you were commenced.
Nick,
Point taken on board and I will certainly push the boat out to go as far as I can in understanding what there is that can in some way be comprehended.
I would however like to add that I believe in a God the Creator as I have met him.
Hi Lee,
First of all, Happy New Year to you and all on the list! Think I forgot to mention that before. And, yes, me too, I believe in God, it’s just that I’m also aware that I am this God, you too, everyone else and all, whether consciously aware of it or not!
This came about after I realised I had been created and I simply had to give thanks and thanks for this amazing gift of being. I said it to him and he came out from above and knodded like, yeh, so now you know what I do. And then he went back in like a humble inventor preocupied with his creation. An amazing moment. The Goddess is a Goddess of love and like humans I think we are the children of this union in the same way as babies are the fruit of the human womb.
So to burn my point a little more. What I think you are refering to is the material of creation and I am refering to the fruits of creation – both to be appreciated. However, there are no Gods as such in the source other than the source itself. Which is probably why you experience what you do – it seems to me.
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
Interesting mix. Must explain somethings.
Well, I guess so! I was adopted as a kid by a regular british family so have no cultural connection to Iran. Women in particular tell me I have a lot of Iranian energy though, so I guess it comes out anyway.
Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives.
Sounds like our discussions.
Yes, I can always see your side of it. It’s just that the mind trying to make sense of the world can’t ever really get there, for the simple reason that our existence is a complete fucking mystery, and our actual identity the biggest mystery of all. A few years ago I thought I really knew it all, nowadays I’m aware just how limited my knowledge is.
I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to.
Is that because you have closed the door on knowledge of creation? You can say that you and I are one but I know I dont sleep in the same bed with you. So why cant we be one and not one? If so why not explore the not one for a while and maybe I can go and explore the one?
Well, the thing I have with “spiritual paths” is that they all seem to have this basic idea that following a series of beliefs or practices will take you somewhere. And, in a way it’s true, but once you’ve actually been where they’re purporting to lead then the desire to follow them gets dissipated. For most, I guess, freedom comes once they’ve given up on all the paths. This said, I’ve studied Qabalah about 5 and a half years. I keep giving it up but somewhere I get sucked back in. Guess I need more resolve! If I name a path then mine’s satsang and advaita with encounter and bioenergetics. But this is not really a path it’s just what I’ve experienced.
You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea.
Ok, I like what you are saying here and in someone who is cleaned up spiritually, this is possibly a way to experience union with all. Yet, Self Awareness is a characteristic of Creation and I think that Self Awareness helps Creation to grow as the Self develops a greater closeness to All out of Self Awareness and also Self Interest.
Lee
PS When did you start having these experiences & why?
Why? Fuck knows! I could relate an experience I had the last time I did any iboga. It was last May, I think. I’d taken a few grams of rootbark with a friend and we were hanging out chatting about life and stuff. Later on I went back to my room and lay down. At some point I became aware that I had always been there, watching all this stuff go by. I’d seen the big bang and the rest of it all. Then, at some point, this thought “I, I, I” had just started arising and it had accreted this body to it and now I was in this physical realm having all these great physical experiences. When I looked back behind this “I”, shit, it was really fucking madness! After this I resumed working on my crazy side with more zeal!
I’ve had plenty of other experiences but frankly I usually find it pretty tedious to read people’s spiritual experiences, unless they’re really juicy, so I try not to go on about my own. Doing so only drags me back into all this spiritual foolishness anyway. There’s a terrible reidentification that comes in when people get into all this spiritual stuff. For sure you can let go of a lot but there can be a wicked price.
with love
Nick
From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 2:05:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I live in the U.S would he travel here? I would love that. If so do you have a number for him?
————– Original message ————–
Hi Steve
I am looking to do the ibo in the new year there is a guy called Brian who comes to your home to treat you he charges ｣600 plus his expenses are you in the UK??? talk to Jasen about what he experienced he was so helpful. I wish you all the luck in the world
:Love donna
From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 2, 2005 at 2:03:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Tennessee
————– Original message ————–
Hi Steve !!
Never used it for now. I am getting a session around Mai. I have been reading everything on this plant for the past six month and is no doubt in my mind that this is the way to go to get rid of most addictions. I truly believe that Ibogaine is a kind of magic bullet to get clean.
Now,I hate to write this because this will offend few readers : but I believe also that a work on the personality of the user have to be done, new skills have to be learnt. Group therapy or NA could help to teach how to live clean.
I now that some facilitators are on this list, and they will help you .Where do you live Steve ? In wich state.?
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] guns/table : easy to read
Date: January 2, 2005 at 1:58:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sorry !!
I send you a very nice table, very clean and easy to read but the table
formating disappears.:-(
Anyway, you can get this table at :
http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/international.html
—– Original Message —–
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] guns/violence in Canada
Hi !!
Not to make a point , but to make it more visual on the relation
beetween
guns, homicide and suicide
Table 1 – International Firearms Regulation, Access and Death Country
Licensing of gun owners? Registration of firearms? Other Households with
firearms (%) Gun Homicide (per 100,000) Gun Suicide (per 100,000) Total
Intentional Gun Death Rate per 100,000
Japan Yes Yes Prohibits handguns with few exceptions 0.6 0.03
0.04 0.07
Singapore Yes Yes Most handguns and rifles prohibited 0.01 (795 in
the
country) 0.07 0.17 0.24
Taiwan N/A N/A N/A 0.15 0.12 0.27
Kuwait N/A N/A N/A 0.34 0.03 0.37
England/ Wales Yes Yes Prohibits handguns 4.0 0.07 0.33 0.4
Scotland Yes Yes Same as England and Wales 4.0 0.19 0.30 0.49
Netherlands Yes Yes 1.9 0.27 0.28 0.55
Spain Yes Yes Some handguns and rifles are prohibited 13.1 0.19
0.55 0.74
Ireland Yes Yes N/A 0.30 0.94 1.24
Germany Yes Yes 8.9 0.21 1.23 1.44
Italy Yes Yes N/A 1.16 1.11 2.27
Sweden Yes Yes Restrictions in some regions 20 0.18 2.09 2.27
Denmark Yes Long guns only 8 0.23 2.25 2.48
Israel Yes Yes N/A 0.72 1.84 2.56
New Zealand Yes Handguns. Proposed for long guns 20 0.22 2.45
2.67
Australia Yes Yes Banned semiautomatics unless good reason 16.0
0.56 2.38 2.94
Belgium Some Yes Some rifles are prohibited 16.6 0.87 2.45 3.32
Canada by 2001 All guns by 2003 Assault weapons and some handguns
26
0.60 3.35 3.95
Norway Yes Unknown 32 0.36 3.87 4.23
Austria Yes Yes Some handguns and rifles are prohibited 16-18% 0.42
4.06 4.48
Northern Ireland Yes Yes UK legislation applies 8.4 3.55 1.18
4.72
France Yes Yes, except sporting rifles 22.6 0.55 4.93 5.48
Switzerland Yes Yes 27.2 0.46 5.74 6.2
Finland Yes Yes No prohibitions 50 0.87 5.78 6.65
USA in some states Handguns in some states Some weapons in some
states 41 6.24 7.23 13.47
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:13 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] guns/violence in Canada
The only ‘legal’ guns in Canada are licensed hunting
rifles (usually in rural areas), and those on the hips
of police officers. Concealed weapons are strictly
not permitted, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
There are shootings here too, just not on so massive
of a scale as in the US. I believe this might be a
population/numbers type of thing, coupled with the
fact that personal handguns are NOT legal in urban
areas. If they were- oh god, who knows what would be
going on.
In fact, there have been gruesome, weekly teenage male
stabbings here for months- think swarmings. And one
of the worst serial killers of all time is from the
west coast of Canada- Robert Picton. He murdered and
butchered many dozens of transient, unfortunate women,
and then fed them to his pet pig. Fucking sick
asshole.
Canada is NOT exempt from violence- we just have fewer
people and fewer guns, that’s all.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 2, 2005 at 1:48:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Steve !!
Never used it for now. I am getting a session around Mai. I have been reading everything on this plant for the past six month and is no doubt in my mind that this is the way to go to get rid of most addictions. I truly believe that Ibogaine is a kind of magic bullet to get clean.
Now,I hate to write this because this will offend few readers : but I believe also that a work on the personality of the user have to be done, new skills have to be learnt. Group therapy or NA could help to teach how to live clean.
I now that some facilitators are on this list, and they will help you .Where do you live Steve ? In wich state.?
God Bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] guns/violence in Canada
Date: January 2, 2005 at 1:31:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi !!
Not to make a point , but to make it more visual on the relation beetween
guns, homicide and suicide
Table 1 – International Firearms Regulation, Access and Death Country
Licensing of gun owners? Registration of firearms? Other Households with
firearms (%) Gun Homicide (per 100,000) Gun Suicide (per 100,000) Total
Intentional Gun Death Rate per 100,000
Japan Yes Yes Prohibits handguns with few exceptions 0.6 0.03
0.04 0.07
Singapore Yes Yes Most handguns and rifles prohibited 0.01 (795 in the
country) 0.07 0.17 0.24
Taiwan N/A N/A N/A 0.15 0.12 0.27
Kuwait N/A N/A N/A 0.34 0.03 0.37
England/ Wales Yes Yes Prohibits handguns 4.0 0.07 0.33 0.4
Scotland Yes Yes Same as England and Wales 4.0 0.19 0.30 0.49
Netherlands Yes Yes 1.9 0.27 0.28 0.55
Spain Yes Yes Some handguns and rifles are prohibited 13.1 0.19
0.55 0.74
Ireland Yes Yes N/A 0.30 0.94 1.24
Germany Yes Yes 8.9 0.21 1.23 1.44
Italy Yes Yes N/A 1.16 1.11 2.27
Sweden Yes Yes Restrictions in some regions 20 0.18 2.09 2.27
Denmark Yes Long guns only 8 0.23 2.25 2.48
Israel Yes Yes N/A 0.72 1.84 2.56
New Zealand Yes Handguns. Proposed for long guns 20 0.22 2.45
2.67
Australia Yes Yes Banned semiautomatics unless good reason 16.0
0.56 2.38 2.94
Belgium Some Yes Some rifles are prohibited 16.6 0.87 2.45 3.32
Canada by 2001 All guns by 2003 Assault weapons and some handguns 26
0.60 3.35 3.95
Norway Yes Unknown 32 0.36 3.87 4.23
Austria Yes Yes Some handguns and rifles are prohibited 16-18% 0.42
4.06 4.48
Northern Ireland Yes Yes UK legislation applies 8.4 3.55 1.18
4.72
France Yes Yes, except sporting rifles 22.6 0.55 4.93 5.48
Switzerland Yes Yes 27.2 0.46 5.74 6.2
Finland Yes Yes No prohibitions 50 0.87 5.78 6.65
USA in some states Handguns in some states Some weapons in some
states 41 6.24 7.23 13.47
God bless
Francis
—– Original Message —–
From: “Ms Iboga” <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:13 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] guns/violence in Canada
The only ‘legal’ guns in Canada are licensed hunting
rifles (usually in rural areas), and those on the hips
of police officers. Concealed weapons are strictly
not permitted, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
There are shootings here too, just not on so massive
of a scale as in the US. I believe this might be a
population/numbers type of thing, coupled with the
fact that personal handguns are NOT legal in urban
areas. If they were- oh god, who knows what would be
going on.
In fact, there have been gruesome, weekly teenage male
stabbings here for months- think swarmings. And one
of the worst serial killers of all time is from the
west coast of Canada- Robert Picton. He murdered and
butchered many dozens of transient, unfortunate women,
and then fed them to his pet pig. Fucking sick
asshole.
Canada is NOT exempt from violence- we just have fewer
people and fewer guns, that’s all.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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From: AbbotAngel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 1:08:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Steve
I am looking to do the ibo in the new year there is a guy called Brian who comes to your home to treat you he charges £600 plus his expenses are you in the UK??? talk to Jasen about what he experienced he was so helpful. I wish you all the luck in the world
:Love donna
From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Date: January 2, 2005 at 12:34:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Lorenzo !1
With all due respect, but that is only my humble opinion.
You wrote :
With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the
chance for endless navel gazing. That’s good for you and all but there would
be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are many
who smoke pot for the same reason..
* The navel gazing thing at least his god for us as you said, but I will
call this ” introspection ” Called it navel gazing if you wish.that do not
bother me 🙂
You wrote : there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your
opinions
* who told you that Lee wanted to have all the addicts and doctors to agree
with his views on spirituality ?. I can t speak for Lee, but personaly I
don’t give a dime of the opinion of doctors regarding addiction and jugement
on the spirituality of addicts.
Unless they prove us that they can have good result on addiction, I will
trust more a Pakistani dishwasher working at Taco Bell than a doctor
regarding my sobriety.
You wrote :To put it into perspective there are countless people who have
stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages
about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop smoking,
that was all.
* Good for them, more power to them!! I am happy for them, but unfortunately
most of smokers are not abble to do so and will die from their addiction.
By the way you don’t have to do Ibo 50 times to quit smoking. 🙂
* Actualy Lee was sharing about is experience post Ibogaine, not
particularly about his pain.
You wrote : I think all these things give you something to do, but
projecting it all over all others is hubris.
* That your opinion , but you are probably not aware that this is a Mailing
list on the subject of Ibogaine, about the treatment and the after effect in
the life of patient who took it. This a list where people share theirs
experience and strenght with complete sincerity and honesty; if that bother
you you and if you are not used to see real human beings talking about
theirs real experience, I can understand that….. A lot of people hate
sincerity and are seriously disturb by it.
You wrote : “The way I look at addiction” is with a lot of hubris, ego and
little understanding.
* In fact that exactly how I see your E-Mail. You put in it a lot of hubris,
ego and very little understanding.
What exactly bother you : the fact that Lee share is deep spirituality or
is it something else ? Let me know, I am always fascinated by people who
try for no reason to destroy spiritual growth in others.
God Bless
Francis
Cheers
Lorenzo
— On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive
experience?
Howard,<br> <br>Thanks for posting those links.<br> <br>I had a read
through the pdf and if I am not mistaken it argues that <br>addiction is
more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than <br>a particular
personality type.<br> <br>The way I look on addiction is this:<br> <br>We
take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional <br>control
over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad <br>emotional
states those repressed problems exert nuerologically <br>speaking, with
good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but <br>we cannot put
them back up after the substance has worn off and hence <br>the addiction.
Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic <br>state prior to
taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive <br>personality but
I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all <br>capable of such
character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage <br>that is
opened.<br> <br>Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems
imo.<br> <br>I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few
days I <br>became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have
been <br>avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends
the <br>good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to
the <br>healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke
<br>practically disappeared.<br> <br>Another perspective on addiction I
would like to consider is this:<br> <br>1. What lessons has the period of
addiction taught?<br>2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person
who fights the <br>addiction?<br> <br>I think there is a very positive side
to addiction worth exploring and <br>one which, as one heals the causes,
one can then as part of the healing <br>tap into as giving one the sense
that it was not senseless and actually <br>led someone to where their soul
wanted them to go.<br> <br>Love & Light,<br> <br>Lee<br><br>HSLotsof@aol.com
wrote:<br>Dear list,<br><br>More than twenty years ago when I was performing
literature searches on<br> ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology
to support proposed <br>ibogaine patents<br> I obtained a copy of Heroin
Addiction – A Metabolic Disease by Drs. <br>Dole and<br> Nyswander, the
developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper<br> remained in my
files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it <br>and
provided<br> it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the
<br>Treatment of<br> Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in
Washington, DC in April <br>2003<br> . Most of the papers except for
the<br> Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora
<br>Weiner Foundation<br> web page following the conference. There was no
PDF file of the Dole <br>paper<br> available and I did not have the
knowledge or time to provide such <br>then. It is<br>an amazingly original
paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who<br> might read it and to
any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded <br>the respect<br> in
the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.<br><br>All
that being said, Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease is <br>available as
a<br>downloadable PDF file from
<br>http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf<br><br>Howard<br><br><
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— <br>=[/<br><br><br><br><br>http://www.my-eboga.com<br> <br>Free copies of
Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media <br>available
here:<br> <br>www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html<br> <br><br>ALL-NEW Yahoo!
Messenger – all new features – even more fun! <br>
_______________________________________________
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] [ot] Schedule of events for the Bush presidency.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 12:30:41 PM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear List,
I was wondering if anyone had the answers to these questions:
1. How long will it be before American muslims are placed in internment camps? Then I was wondering how long more it would be before gays who wish to get married followed by any other group in society deemed a threat or social nuisance. Will it affect house prices?
2. Does anyone happen to know what the final death count will be in Iraq? I am curious as I am just wondering if the Iraqis can have more babies so as to offset the numbers? Perhaps if they can be Christianised and told its God’s law not to use a condom and to make babies for the fatherland. What would be a good number or does it really matter? Whats a life anyway, heh!
3. What is the total number of new arms that will be manufactured and will the arms industry be given sufficient support to build advanced weapons systems? Its better we aren’t too close when we let them off.
4. Do you think it will be possible to convince people of an upcoming social security crises so we can privatise the industry and give the financial services a much needed break after the bitter years of the last crash? Hopefully by then the planet will be unihabitable so the issue will be obselete.
5. Given that we now have possibly managed to miss the deadline to clean up the environment, do you think we can keep this up and secure the energy industry as the planet visibly deteriorates around us? (It might be tough if and when the ice shelf cracks and the global currents are thrown off.) Remember its the last man with the most money wins! Heh Heh!!!!
6. Have arrangements been made in all the major population centers for the mass transportation of dissenters to detention centers following demonstrations, publication of emails to incite dissent, dissent against government…. If so which city is the best organised to handle a 100,000?
Finally if you are looking for a tip on the stock market I would look at kits to build nuclear fall out shelters, radiation protection and anything that generally relates to human disaster. I think there will be a boom in that side of the market.
Love & Light,
Lee
Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Date: January 2, 2005 at 9:50:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick wrote:
I am just offering that you point your attention back toward your actual identity, back before the mind’s conception of who you were commenced.
Nick,
Point taken on board and I will certainly push the boat out to go as far as I can in understanding what there is that can in some way be comprehended.
I would however like to add that I believe in a God the Creator as I have met him. This came about after I realised I had been created and I simply had to give thanks and thanks for this amazing gift of being. I said it to him and he came out from above and knodded like, yeh, so now you know what I do. And then he went back in like a humble inventor preocupied with his creation. An amazing moment. The Goddess is a Goddess of love and like humans I think we are the children of this union in the same way as babies are the fruit of the human womb.
So to burn my point a little more. What I think you are refering to is the material of creation and I am refering to the fruits of creation – both to be appreciated. However, there are no Gods as such in the source other than the source itself. Which is probably why you experience what you do – it seems to me.
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
Interesting mix. Must explain somethings.
Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives.
Sounds like our discussions.
I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to.
Is that because you have closed the door on knowledge of creation? You can say that you and I are one but I know I dont sleep in the same bed with you. So why cant we be one and not one? If so why not explore the not one for a while and maybe I can go and explore the one?
You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea.
Ok, I like what you are saying here and in someone who is cleaned up spiritually, this is possibly a way to experience union with all. Yet, Self Awareness is a characteristic of Creation and I think that Self Awareness helps Creation to grow as the Self develops a greater closeness to All out of Self Awareness and also Self Interest.
Lee
PS When did you start having these experiences & why?
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 01 January 2005 14:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning.
Hi Lee,
I am just offering that you point your attention back toward your actual identity, back before the mind’s conception of who you were commenced. When you start this many things will change spontaneously. Whilst the mind is relatively content with it’s idea of who it is it is easy to talk all this stuff about gods, demons, shadows, souls, etc. You can view the world through this filter of myriad dualisms, it is relatively safe and you can expand your mind’s idea of who you are little by little. This is the business of therapy, of healing. I do it day in day out, it’s a nice easy way to deal with reality. But what I’m talking about is something different – that you stop trying to heal, stop trying to “get better,” at least for a little while, and actually start to examine the core preconception that this whole process of self-improvement is based upon, this idea of who you are.
Like you say, it’s not for everybody. But once the addictive and more fucked up tendencies have been healed within the experience of individuality then maybe it’s time to start looking.
with love
Nick
It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
From: Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 9:40:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Steve,
How are you? I have heard Ultra Rapid Opiate Detox is
a scam, and a nightmare. There is negative
press/postings about it all over the internet.
Apparently, you have a pretty high chance of still
going through painful withdrawal AFTER you awake from
the anaesthesia.
IMHO, Ibogaine is the way to go, especially for opiate
detox. I used to be addicted to heroin/methadone, and
have been clean for three months now. I did my
treatment in Toronto with a music therapist- if you’re
interested, send me an email offlist, and I’ll give
you details.
Good luck with everything- Ibogaine is nothing short
of a complete miracle…another key piece in the big
puzzle of LIFE.
cheers,
Julie ms_iboga@yahoo.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 2, 2005 at 9:12:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Kirsty,
Do you have a provider down in NZ?
Lee
Kirsty Sutherland <captkirk@kol.co.nz> wrote:
Hi Steve, and welcome to this list!
Youll get to know some awesome people here from all over the world. Most of us are/were addicted to something or everything at some stage, the reason why I like this list so much
. Theres addicts at all stages of addiction! Where else could you see this?
Just stick around and youll read about experiences, and discover if its something for you
then you can take it from there.
Im relatively new to this list, but I love being here and reading the emails. Topics are varied.
Im also addicted to opiates for many years and Im looking at Ibogaine treatment, hopefully sometime this year.. its all relative to the ole $$
sadly.
So, welcome again, enjoy your stay :o)
Kirsty
Aka captain kirk
New Zealand
From: stowe01@comcast.net [mailto:stowe01@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, 2 January 2005 6:53 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—– From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
”spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 2, 2005 at 9:00:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Frances,
Its a amazing plant, absolutely frigging amazing. Its a door opened to the spirit world unlike any I have heard of. In fact in all honesty I think it comes from the tree of life as that is the knowledge it bestows with time.
Anyone who genuinely follows the eboga path will in your words:
” Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?”
In the beginning though one can be more cranky as the defenses and the desire for defenses are coming down making you less tolerant of neurosis in others. If the work is not completed properly this state of being will persist imo with occasional use of eboga.
Hence I think some of the reports coming from the Bwiti would seem to indicate that the doctors there are sometimes a little teetchy, i.e., contrary to others. I think that comes from too much culture/religion and not enough spirituality. Just a reactive thought. I want to go down there and observe it for myself.
You either go with the energy or you dont and if you do the qualities you refer to come naturally.
Lee
The Garden <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net> wrote:
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
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Author: Amazing Grace
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html
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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 7:27:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sorry about that guy, I thought you were in Canada. I’ll try and answer your questions the best that I can. This is the place for Ibogaine info. I found out about it here too. Read as much info as you can so you know what to expect. For me it was a miracle. I first did opiates in 1973, got on Methadone in 1985 after two major surgeries, and had been addicted ever since with a couple of years of clean time in between. I’m clean now since Sept. 30 when I had the Ibogaine treatment. Methadone is very hard to get off of so I had some minor withdrawals for about 3 weeks afterwards, but nothing like quitting cold turkey. NOTHING like it!!! I detoxed off of Methadone without Ibogaine in 1994 and thought I would die before it was over and the withdrawals lasted for 2 months. Bad withdrawals. Coming off of Loratabs or another oxycodone, hydrocodone type of drug should be easier to do. Benzodiazapams (valium, zanex type drugs) are the hardest drugs to deal with with Ibogaine. With some people saying it doesn’t work and some saying it does. The jury is still out on that one but Ibogaine would still help with it a lot, in my opinion. The hallucinations I experienced were some of the coolest most life affirming things I have ever experienced. It is intense and there is some motion sickness involved among other things but well worth the effort that you will put out. And you will put out some effort. A good provider will help you through anything that comes up, they know what to expect and can talk to you as you are being treated. My provider instilled so much confidence in me about the treatment that I never really worried about anything except missing the bucket when I yakked. Not everybody throws up, but some do, and I was a lucky one who did. HeHe It never frightened me at all. My now friend, (provider), told me what to expect and what to do if I did get scared, but he was so cool about the whole thing that I never felt scared at all. He also had enough confidence about the Ibogaine treatment that he left me alone to experience it, but was never more than a few feet away in case I needed him. Turns out that I did need him. I had to tell somebody how beautiful things were in my head. All in all it was the most positive thing I ever did, short of watching my ex-wife go through being pregnant and then having my son. It has changed my whole outlook on life. Welcome to the list and I hope you stick around and find the information that you need and do the Ibogaine. I highly recommend it. Randy
From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 6:28:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jason,
Thanks so much!!! You have to know how excited that I am getting right now with all this positive feedback. I really want off this stuff. Even though I believe that I actually use for the next year without trouble. I dont care. I can easily afford my habit which is about $100 a day. I am not a veteran drug guy. I never even tried a drug until 3 years ago and I was 37. Most people that I read about has had this problrm for years. But I recognize it has to stop NOW!!! Please tell me as much as you can about where you did it? How was it? How much did it cost? Did you have any Withdraws during it? After it? Are you Struggling now? Jusy anything that you can help me. GOD will bless you for helping people and I promise I am going to help people. I have access to money to help promote this more if it helps me the way that it has you. By the way is this definitely the best way .Is the Anesthnesia Rapid detox better or worse or what. I know I am asking alot but if you dont mind I would love your number so that we could talk(I am not a stalker just very excited) or I can give you mine. Just let me know .
With Love,
Steve
————– Original message ————–
Hey Steve,
I believe you have come to the right place.
There are many people here who have done Ibogaine/Iboga
with great results.
I am one of these people, and will help in any way I can, as I
am sure others will also.
My addictions were opiates, occasional cocaine use, ciggarettes,
and believe it or not,..sweets(sugar).With the help of Ibogaine/Iboga
I was able to get rid of my addictions.
I was addicted to these things for 23 years +.
I am now a free man.
Go for it Steve,..with your income you can travel any where in the world.
Don’t do it at home by yourself.
Some will power is still needed,.however the treatment makes the choice
clearer.
with love, Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] guns/violence in Canada
New to this group and really dont have it down yet, so excuse me If I am not at the right place, but hope that I am.
The reason for my email is that I have been abusing loratab now for about three years.Recently it has got worse and even though that I have been a addict for majority of three years it is more evident to me now than ever, and I want to beat this. Like just about everybody I am terrified of the actually detox. I have been all over the internet to educate myself on the best and most humane way to accomplish this. I have seen a rapid detox(legitimate one in New York highlighted by dateline). They followed a girl around right b4 her process. She has been a junkie for 3 years she went through it and has not touched herion for 6 months. Then I found info on Ibogaine and I seemed to like that better, for the phscotherpay effects it seems to have. My story is much different than most people. I have drank moderately sometimes a little heavy but have never have had a desire to do any drug. I am 40 years old and started on loratabs when I was 37. I had a surgery had them prescribed but did not immediately fall for them. I dabbled in them months after, but hit me about a year later. The reason that it kind of snuck up on me is that I am very functional addict, at work. I had my best professional year with an income of $350,000 this year. I have to say that I have to give the drug alot of the credit I worked like crazy on it. I have always been a chronic worrier and sometimes the fear of hearing a no or bad news kept me from trying. This drug dramatically reduced these fears. I am a business dynamo on this drug. But now the effect is not the same I have uped my intake to around 100 mg a day from about 30 mg when I started. I had to be put in the hospital a couple of months ago for a bleeding ulcer stress from work but the doctor said mainly from the drugs eating through my stomach. My liver counts were perfect lucky for me it probably shouldnt be. I actaully read somewhere on the internet that loratabs are actually better for you than drinking because there is no toxic bodys in the drug. I dont know if that is true or not. Anyway I hope someone can give me some good news on libogaine The readings that I have done seems to suggest that this stuff actually makes youm deal with the real underlining reason for the addiction and also detoxes you and you have either no or very little desire to do the drug for at least a small window of time. That is what I need I feel like if I can break the habit for a month I can handle it from there. If anyone out there has actually done this or knows someone that has write me and let me know yours or theres experience. Any experiences with anesteshia detox that if would b helpful also. Also one last thing if anyone has any info on that guy in Vancouver(pot tv) that is helping people do libogaine at his center and if anyone has actually done this yourself at your home with no supervision. Thanx ps sorry that my message was so long just the first one the rest want be. Steve
From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 6:14:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have had 3 people reply to me and I am getting excited. I must have misinformed you I dont live in Canada, I live in the usa. You said in your email that you had the procedure in Septemeber. Where did you do it?Are you clean? Did you have any Wlthdraw?
Please tell me anything that will help me.
God will bless you for helping people and I intend to.
Thanks,
Love ,
Steve
————– Original message ————–
Steve, from what I understand Marc Emery, (however you spell his name), isn’t able to treat people at this time. He just got out of jail a few months ago over some complete bullshit the Canadian government trumped up for him. Since you live in Canada it might help if you call them or send them a letter to see when they will start treatments again. I was set up to go to his treatment center last year but couldn’t ever get my ducks all in a row to get it done. They were concerned that I might have trouble getting across the border from the US because of some old misdemeanor drug charges that I had to cop to. I think the name of his place is The Iboga Therapy House. There should be a link here on the Mindvox home page. If they can’t help you, don’t give up because things are looking better all the time for people looking for Ibogaine treatment. Look for the provider link on the home page and I think you should get some kind of idea of how prevalent Ibogaine is becoming. I had Ibogaine treatment in September and had a provider there with me. You don’t have to do this alone. There are a few risks involved, and if you have an experienced provider with you it will definitely make the whole experience more therapeutic, and you will have a whole lot better chance of getting what you want from the whole thing. Clean in other words. Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 4:33:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Steve, from what I understand Marc Emery, (however you spell his name), isn’t able to treat people at this time. He just got out of jail a few months ago over some complete bullshit the Canadian government trumped up for him. Since you live in Canada it might help if you call them or send them a letter to see when they will start treatments again. I was set up to go to his treatment center last year but couldn’t ever get my ducks all in a row to get it done. They were concerned that I might have trouble getting across the border from the US because of some old misdemeanor drug charges that I had to cop to. I think the name of his place is The Iboga Therapy House. There should be a link here on the Mindvox home page. If they can’t help you, don’t give up because things are looking better all the time for people looking for Ibogaine treatment. Look for the provider link on the home page and I think you should get some kind of idea of how prevalent Ibogaine is becoming. I had Ibogaine treatment in September and had a provider there with me. You don’t have to do this alone. There are a few risks involved, and if you have an experienced provider with you it will definitely make the whole experience more therapeutic, and you will have a whole lot better chance of getting what you want from the whole thing. Clean in other words. Randy
From: “Jasen Chamoun” <JasenHappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Hey Steve.
Date: January 2, 2005 at 3:46:38 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Steve,
I believe you have come to the right place.
There are many people here who have done Ibogaine/Iboga
with great results.
I am one of these people, and will help in any way I can, as I
am sure others will also.
My addictions were opiates, occasional cocaine use, ciggarettes,
and believe it or not,..sweets(sugar).With the help of Ibogaine/Iboga
I was able to get rid of my addictions.
I was addicted to these things for 23 years +.
I am now a free man.
Go for it Steve,..with your income you can travel any where in the world.
Don’t do it at home by yourself.
Some will power is still needed,.however the treatment makes the choice
clearer.
with love, Jasen.
—– Original Message —–
From: stowe01@comcast.net
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] guns/violence in Canada
New to this group and really dont have it down yet, so excuse me If I am not at the right place, but hope that I am.
The reason for my email is that I have been abusing loratab now for about three years.Recently it has got worse and even though that I have been a addict for majority of three years it is more evident to me now than ever, and I want to beat this. Like just about everybody I am terrified of the actually detox. I have been all over the internet to educate myself on the best and most humane way to accomplish this. I have seen a rapid detox(legitimate one in New York highlighted by dateline). They followed a girl around right b4 her process. She has been a junkie for 3 years she went through it and has not touched herion for 6 months. Then I found info on Ibogaine and I seemed to like that better, for the phscotherpay effects it seems to have. My story is much different than most people. I have drank moderately sometimes a little heavy but have never have had a desire to do any drug. I am 40 years old and started on loratabs when I was 37. I had a surgery had them prescribed but did not immediately fall for them. I dabbled in them months after, but hit me about a year later. The reason that it kind of snuck up on me is that I am very functional addict, at work. I had my best professional year with an income of $350,000 this year. I have to say that I have to give the drug alot of the credit I worked like crazy on it. I have always been a chronic worrier and sometimes the fear of hearing a no or bad news kept me from trying. This drug dramatically reduced these fears. I am a business dynamo on this drug. But now the effect is not the same I have uped my intake to around 100 mg a day from about 30 mg when I started. I had to be put in the hospital a couple of months ago for a bleeding ulcer stress from work but the doctor said mainly from the drugs eating through my stomach. My liver counts were perfect lucky for me it probably shouldnt be. I actaully read somewhere on the internet that loratabs are actually better for you than drinking because there is no toxic bodys in the drug. I dont know if that is true or not. Anyway I hope someone can give me some good news on libogaine The readings that I have done seems to suggest that this stuff actually makes youm deal with the real underlining reason for the addiction and also detoxes you and you have either no or very little desire to do the drug for at least a small window of time. That is what I need I feel like if I can break the habit for a month I can handle it from there. If anyone out there has actually done this or knows someone that has write me and let me know yours or theres experience. Any experiences with anesteshia detox that if would b helpful also. Also one last thing if anyone has any info on that guy in Vancouver(pot tv) that is helping people do libogaine at his center and if anyone has actually done this yourself at your home with no supervision. Thanx ps sorry that my message was so long just the first one the rest want be. Steve
From: “Kirsty Sutherland” <captkirk@kol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 2, 2005 at 1:37:43 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Steve, and welcome to this list!
You’ll get to know some awesome people here from all over the world. Most of us are/were addicted to something or everything at some stage, the reason why I like this list so much…. There’s addicts at all stages of addiction! Where else could you see this?
Just stick around and you’ll read about experiences, and discover if it’s something for you…then you can take it from there.
I’m relatively new to this list, but I love being here and reading the emails. Topics are varied.
I’m also addicted to opiates for many years and I’m looking at Ibogaine treatment, hopefully sometime this year.. it’s all relative to the ole $$ … sadly.
So, welcome again, enjoy your stay :o)
Kirsty
Aka captain kirk
New Zealand
From: stowe01@comcast.net [mailto:stowe01@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, 2 January 2005 6:53 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—– From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48 To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didn’t find Krisnamurti – I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didn’t work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesn’t matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going…a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle….
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. “Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.”
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. “NO MIND”, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. “The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.”
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. “My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.”
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of “NO MIND” as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: “You are unclean. You touched that woman!” He replied: “I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.”
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
”spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
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ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
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From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 2, 2005 at 12:52:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Frances,
I am very interested in doing Ibogain and was just wondering. You have a beautiful desription of the plant. Have you ever used it? And were you an addict? Waiting anxiously, Steve
————– Original message ————–
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
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From: “The Garden” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 2, 2005 at 12:01:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
-Hi Lee !
From a purely spiritual point of view I see Ibogaine as a pure gift of God and Mother Nature. What a powerful plant !!
A plant that can erase withdraw, craving, addiction and can act as years of therapy.
it’s a medecine , one of God signature.
Looking at the flower I see a lot of white : (Yang) – Poised and confident, white works better when it is combined with gold or silver to generate an atmosphere of influence and control. The color of purity, goodness and trustworthiness.
The heart of the little flower is yellow : (Yang) – Considered as auspicious as red, yellow represents sunbeams, warmth and motion. This color can make you feel cheerful. Yellow is the color of communication and health, cheerfulness and friendliness.
The heart is Gold…… (Yang) – The color of God consciousness.
The form is one of the star to show the relation of Ibogaine too the above.
Do you think that people who went throught the Ibogaine sacrement where more cheerful, healthy, helpful somehow , warm , commmunicative , tolerant and more in control of their life ?
Is that the magic behind the magic ?/ !
God Bless
Francis
—- Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
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From: stowe01@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] guns/violence in Canada
Date: January 1, 2005 at 9:17:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
New to this group and really dont have it down yet, so excuse me If I am not at the right place, but hope that I am.
The reason for my email is that I have been abusing loratab now for about three years.Recently it has got worse and even though that I have been a addict for majority of three years it is more evident to me now than ever, and I want to beat this. Like just about everybody I am terrified of the actually detox. I have been all over the internet to educate myself on the best and most humane way to accomplish this. I have seen a rapid detox(legitimate one in New York highlighted by dateline). They followed a girl around right b4 her process. She has been a junkie for 3 years she went through it and has not touched herion for 6 months. Then I found info on Ibogaine and I seemed to like that better, for the phscotherpay effects it seems to have. My story is much different than most people. I have drank moderately sometimes a little heavy but have never have had a desire to do any drug. I am 40 years old and started on loratabs when I was 37. I had a surgery had them prescribed but did not immediately fall for them. I dabbled in them months after, but hit me about a year later. The reason that it kind of snuck up on me is that I am very functional addict, at work. I had my best professional year with an income of $350,000 this year. I have to say that I have to give the drug alot of the credit I worked like crazy on it. I have always been a chronic worrier and sometimes the fear of hearing a no or bad news kept me from trying. This drug dramatically reduced these fears. I am a business dynamo on this drug. But now the effect is not the same I have uped my intake to around 100 mg a day from about 30 mg when I started. I had to be put in the hospital a couple of months ago for a bleeding ulcer stress from work but the doctor said mainly from the drugs eating through my stomach. My liver counts were perfect lucky for me it probably shouldnt be. I actaully read somewhere on the internet that loratabs are actually better for you than drinking because there is no toxic bodys in the drug. I dont know if that is true or not. Anyway I hope someone can give me some good news on libogaine The readings that I have done seems to suggest that this stuff actually makes youm deal with the real underlining reason for the addiction and also detoxes you and you have either no or very little desire to do the drug for at least a small window of time. That is what I need I feel like if I can break the habit for a month I can handle it from there. If anyone out there has actually done this or knows someone that has write me and let me know yours or theres experience. Any experiences with anesteshia detox that if would b helpful also. Also one last thing if anyone has any info on that guy in Vancouver(pot tv) that is helping people do libogaine at his center and if anyone has actually done this yourself at your home with no supervision. Thanx ps sorry that my message was so long just the first one the rest want be. Steve
————– Original message ————–
Hi all,
I can remember two or three times Detroit was called the murder capital of America. In one of Detroit’s record years for homicide Windsor, Ontario (Canada) had one murder by a handgun. I don’t have the answer, just thought I would mention it. How you can cross the Detroit River and be in a completly different country with completely different results.
I’ll leave this to the professionals to figure out.
– JIM
Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
The only ‘legal’ guns in Canada are licensed hunting
rifles (usually in rural areas), and those on the hips
of police officers. Concealed weapons are strictly
not permitted, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
There are shootings here too, just not on so massive
of a scale as in the US. I believe this might be a
population/numbers type of thing, coupled with the
fact that personal handguns are NOT legal in urban
areas. If they were- oh god, who knows what would be
going on.
In fact, there have been gruesome, weekly teenage male
stabbings here for months- think swarmings. And one
of the worst serial killers of all time is from the
west coast of Canada- Robert Picton. He murdered and
butchered many dozens of transient, unfortunate women,
and then fed them to his pet pig. Fucking sick
asshole.
Canada is NOT exempt from violence- we just have fewer
people and fewer guns, that’s all.
__________________________________
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From: Jim Hadey <jimhadey3@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] guns/violence in Canada
Date: January 1, 2005 at 8:11:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all,
I can remember two or three times Detroit was called the murder capital of America. In one of Detroit’s record years for homicide Windsor, Ontario (Canada) had one murder by a handgun. I don’t have the answer, just thought I would mention it. How you can cross the Detroit River and be in a completly different country with completely different results.
I’ll leave this to the professionals to figure out.
– JIM
Ms Iboga <ms_iboga@yahoo.com> wrote:
The only ‘legal’ guns in Canada are licensed hunting
rifles (usually in rural areas), and those on the hips
of police officers. Concealed weapons are strictly
not permitted, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
There are shootings here too, just not on so massive
of a scale as in the US. I believe this might be a
population/numbers type of thing, coupled with the
fact that personal handguns are NOT legal in urban
areas. If they were- oh god, who knows what would be
going on.
In fact, there have been gruesome, weekly teenage male
stabbings here for months- think swarmings. And one
of the worst serial killers of all time is from the
west coast of Canada- Robert Picton. He murdered and
butchered many dozens of transient, unfortunate women,
and then fed them to his pet pig. Fucking sick
asshole.
Canada is NOT exempt from violence- we just have fewer
people and fewer guns, that’s all.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Date: January 1, 2005 at 2:18:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 01 January 2005 14:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning.
Hi Lee,
I am just offering that you point your attention back toward your actual identity, back before the mind’s conception of who you were commenced. When you start this many things will change spontaneously. Whilst the mind is relatively content with it’s idea of who it is it is easy to talk all this stuff about gods, demons, shadows, souls, etc. You can view the world through this filter of myriad dualisms, it is relatively safe and you can expand your mind’s idea of who you are little by little. This is the business of therapy, of healing. I do it day in day out, it’s a nice easy way to deal with reality. But what I’m talking about is something different – that you stop trying to heal, stop trying to “get better,” at least for a little while, and actually start to examine the core preconception that this whole process of self-improvement is based upon, this idea of who you are.
Like you say, it’s not for everybody. But once the addictive and more fucked up tendencies have been healed within the experience of individuality then maybe it’s time to start looking.
with love
Nick
It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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From: Sapphirestardus@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (on topic) How was it Julian?
Date: January 1, 2005 at 1:32:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You are a hundred percent right my friend! The4 fact that most of us have to experience this no differently than doing smack or anything else we choose is the biggest injustice of all. I did have some visual experience but I will say I intend to do it again for I want it to be more intense than it was.
I will be more specific with you in the near future for I am going to the hospital now. I am going to have more of my foot amputated and I need to take some blood tests to determine how much of the foot they want. But one particular thing stick in my memory. I was lying down on my bed and all of a sudden there were these elctric like trails flashing off any and every light source. I wanted to create more of them for I thought them beautiful and I got up really fast. I fell back in bed and felt like I was being pulled through a forest or jungle like atmosphere really fast. I never hit a tree or anything. I always seemed to move just right so I could fly through it with ease and speed. Then I stopped, I think i closed my eyes and in front of me, where I had stopped flying, a whole bunch of hands were building totem poles of mayan culture. They would start from the bottom and go up. When it was done, it would go away and they would start over.
I hope this is enough for now. I am on my way to the hospital. I promise I will be in touch soon.
Regards,
Julian
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Date: January 1, 2005 at 11:18:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lorenzo,
In case you haven’t notices this list covers a range of topics of interest to many. It is not simply a place to get a lead on ibogaine.
What you call endless navel gazing is an attempt on my part to understand things relevant to eboga and to try and put different perspectives on that. That is what I do as i consider it worthwhile. So if you find it tiring I suggest you skip over my posts as there will be plenty more like them. Hopefully they will contribute in some way. If not, well at least I tried.
As far as enjoying eboga goes, I use it as a tool and yes I do enjoy what I am learning about its ability to heal. Enjoyment is a part of life, is it not? As far as enjoying reliving past events and the work that has to be done, I can only say it sounds like you have never taken it and you have no real idea of what is involved.
It is not necessary to take ibogaine to stop smoking. I was using it as an example of addiction that i can relate to and bridge a discussion to others on the list.
BTW I discuss trauma and pain freely and without distress as I believe it is very relevant and is what most people are running away from. Its not the bogeyman it once was for me. I guess in someone who is running away from theirs this kind of openness can cause an angry reaction.
I looked up the definition of hubris:
“An arrogance due to excessive pride and an insolence toward others.”
Love & Light,
Lee
Lorenzo <lorenzo-aguila@excite.com> wrote:
With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the chance for endless navel gazing. That’s good for you and all but there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are many who smoke pot for the same reason.
To put it into perspective there are countless people who have stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop smoking, that was all.
I think all these things give you something to do, but projecting it all over all others is hubris.
“The way I look at addiction” is with a lot of hubris, ego and little understanding.
Cheers
Lorenzo
— On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Howard,
Thanks for posting those links.
I had a read through the pdf and if I am not mistaken it argues that
addiction is more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than
a particular personality type.
The way I look on addiction is this:
We take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional
control over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad
emotional states those repressed problems exert nuerologically
speaking, with good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but
we cannot put them back up after the substance has worn off and hence
the addiction. Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic
state prior to taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive
personality but I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all
capable of such character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage
that is opened.
Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems imo.
I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few days I
became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have been
avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends the
good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to the
healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke
practically disappeared.
Another perspective on addiction I would like to consider is this:
1. What lessons has the period of addiction taught?
2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person who fights the
addiction?
I think there is a very positive side to addiction worth exploring and
one which, as one heals the causes, one can then as part of the healing
tap into as giving one the sense that it was not senseless and actually
led someone to where their soul wanted them to go.
Love & Light,
Lee
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Dear list,
More than twenty years ago when I was performing literature searches on
ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology to support proposed
ibogaine patents
I obtained a copy of Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease by Drs.
Dole and
Nyswander, the developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper
remained in my files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it
and provided
it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the
Treatment of
Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in Washington, DC in April
2003
. Most of the papers except for the
Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora
Weiner Foundation
web page following the conference. There was no PDF file of the Dole
paper
available and I did not have the knowledge or time to provide such
then. It is
an amazingly original paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who
might read it and to any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded
the respect
in the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.
All that being said, Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease is
available as a
downloadable PDF file from
http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf
Howard
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Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media
available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! – http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
From: “Lorenzo” <lorenzo-aguila@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Date: January 1, 2005 at 10:53:41 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the chance for endless navel gazing. That’s good for you and all but there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are many who smoke pot for the same reason.
To put it into perspective there are countless people who have stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop smoking, that was all.
I think all these things give you something to do, but projecting it all over all others is hubris.
“The way I look at addiction” is with a lot of hubris, ego and little understanding.
Cheers
Lorenzo
— On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: Lee Albert [mailto: my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Howard,<br> <br>Thanks for posting those links.<br> <br>I had a read through the pdf and if I am not mistaken it argues that <br>addiction is more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than <br>a particular personality type.<br> <br>The way I look on addiction is this:<br> <br>We take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional <br>control over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad <br>emotional states those repressed problems exert nuerologically <br>speaking, with good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but <br>we cannot put them back up after the substance has worn off and hence <br>the addiction. Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic <br>state prior to taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive <br>personality but I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all <br>capable of such character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage <br>that is opened.<br> <br>Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems imo.<br> <br>I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few days I <br>became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have been <br>avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends the <br>good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to the <br>healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke <br>practically disappeared.<br> <br>Another perspective on addiction I would like to consider is this:<br> <br>1. What lessons has the period of addiction taught?<br>2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person who fights the <br>addiction?<br> <br>I think there is a very positive side to addiction worth exploring and <br>one which, as one heals the causes, one can then as part of the healing <br>tap into as giving one the sense that it was not senseless and actually <br>led someone to where their soul wanted them to go.<br> <br>Love & Light,<br> <br>Lee<br><br>HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:<br>Dear list,<br><br>More than twenty years ago when I was performing literature searches on<br> ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology to support proposed <br>ibogaine patents<br> I obtained a copy of Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease by Drs. <br>Dole and<br> Nyswander, the developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper<br> remained in my files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it <br>and provided<br> it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the <br>Treatment of<br> Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in Washington, DC in April <br>2003<br> . Most of the papers except for the<br> Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora <br>Weiner Foundation<br> web page following the conference. There was no PDF file of the Dole <br>paper<br> available and I did not have the knowledge or time to provide such <br>then. It is<br>an amazingly original paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who<br> might read it and to any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded <br>the respect<br> in the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.<br><br>All that being said, Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease is <br>available as a<br>downloadable PDF file from <br>http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf<br><br>Howard<br><br><br>/]=——————————————————————— <br>=[\<br>[%] Ibogaine List Commands: <br>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]<br>\]=——————————————————————— <br>=[/<br><br><br><br><br>http://www.my-eboga.com<br> <br>Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media <br>available here:<br> <br>www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html<br> <br><br>ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun! <br>
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! – http://www.excite.com
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper – Addiction: A positive experience?
Date: January 1, 2005 at 10:23:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Howard,
Thanks for posting those links.
I had a read through the pdf and if I am not mistaken it argues that addiction is more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than a particular personality type.
The way I look on addiction is this:
We take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional control over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad emotional states those repressed problems exert nuerologically speaking, with good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but we cannot put them back up after the substance has worn off and hence the addiction. Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic state prior to taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive personality but I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all capable of such character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage that is opened.
Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems imo.
I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few days I became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have been avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends the good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to the healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke practically disappeared.
Another perspective on addiction I would like to consider is this:
1. What lessons has the period of addiction taught?
2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person who fights the addiction?
I think there is a very positive side to addiction worth exploring and one which, as one heals the causes, one can then as part of the healing tap into as giving one the sense that it was not senseless and actually led someone to where their soul wanted them to go.
Love & Light,
Lee
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Dear list,
More than twenty years ago when I was performing literature searches on
ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology to support proposed ibogaine patents
I obtained a copy of Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease by Drs. Dole and
Nyswander, the developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper
remained in my files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it and provided
it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the Treatment of
Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in Washington, DC in April 2003
. Most of the papers except for the
Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora Weiner Foundation
web page following the conference. There was no PDF file of the Dole paper
available and I did not have the knowledge or time to provide such then. It is
an amazingly original paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who
might read it and to any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded the respect
in the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.
All that being said, Heroin Addiction – A Metabolic Disease is available as a
downloadable PDF file from http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf
Howard
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
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Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick – Clarification
Date: January 1, 2005 at 9:57:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I wanted to say I have only the experience of God & Goddess to date. I am speculating on the existence of other Gods. Maybe there aren’t any? Who knows?
Lee
Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://www.my-eboga.com
Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media available here:
www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Date: January 1, 2005 at 9:44:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick,
There are many streams but only one river, it is said.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don’t know much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.
I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps where we differ significantly is this:
My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light also. Just a thought.
Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.
This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from, i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e. we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really acknowledge who we really are in all its “darkness” also.) These dark entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of the experience and is not the motivation itself.
Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further. When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning. It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person finds themself.
The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.
In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
Hi Lee,
I don’t consider what you’re doing to be folly. I just put my energy out, that’s all.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
Well, I’m anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
It’s a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when their mind is attracted to saying “Everything is alright as it is.” There’s no easy way out of the position. It’s just part of the whole drama of existence. Existence grows you, what to do?
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
I’m not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward what is existential true – (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?
Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego (I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to “improve yourself”. With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You also can’t play small any longer, you can’t hide behind the facade of “little me”, this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it’s no longer my reality. I don’t have a choice to take a spiritual path because I already know there’s nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it’s a fucking drag half the time, but that’s how things are for me.
with love
Nick
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger – all new features – even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
/]=———————————————————————=[
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From: Lee Albert <my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga
Date: January 1, 2005 at 9:13:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Planteur,
Thats a good question. I dont honestly know. His views sometimes seemed to me to be very definite or disdainful of many systems or ways. Yet there was an integrity that encouraged people to let go of all beliefs which is what I did due to his influence. A good influence.
I think he himself would have to admit that we each find our own way and if eboga helps who is he to say no? I think he was right in one sense to be against all drugs but even as an “enlightened” being it doesn’t mean you know it all. Much knowledge in this state is on a need to know basis as enlightenment is not the same as suddenly gaining lots of non-personal technical knowledge imo, eg, how does a rocket get to the moon?
So his reaction against all drugs as you put it (not my words and I am not sure if that was his position 100%) was probably a safe position to take. I mayself was very sceptical of eboga at the beginning as I still had the idea that all change had to be catalysed by “myself.” However,
I like to think that I graduated out of the basic training he gave which is what any true teacher imo should be aiming to do.
The point of any real teaching is to empower the person because when you encounter the truth within yourself there is no teacher to reference only yourself. But they can open the door or perhaps point to the door and that is what I seek to do, i.e., share my insights to help others see what is possible with eboga (one of many ways) but in the end no one can get someone else to do their work. You have to build a real inner connection and live your life out of its center as it will, by default, bring you home eventually, i.e., back to your center, your Self.
There many many streams but only one river.
The sad truth is this: many will try eboga but only the truely determined will succeed. Perhaps also, those who are ready to succeed. There are a lot of spiritual dynamics at work in any given person.
Lee
Iboga_planteur <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr> wrote:
Krishnamurti was against the use of any drugs, what do you think he would have thought about Eboka?
Thanks!
Planteur
—–Message d’origine—–
De : Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Envoyé : vendredi 31 décembre 2004 15:48
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga – Att. Nick
Hi Nick,
I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the way you think J
Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody’s beliefs etc. That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly of sorts.
One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE! Hence, I was very excited when I didnt find Krisnamurti I found myself!
So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a way I have not since I was a child.
So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to take your advice I would only have myself to blame.
You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand. I do and this is fundamental to my experience.
A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your own catholic upbringing?
I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I say this because the simple spiritual answers didnt work for me or for many others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesnt matter what system you use as long as you get where you are going a car, a plane, a train, a bicycle .
Where I disagree:
1. Whether you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind, there’s nothing to relate it to.
I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. NO MIND, as interconnected spiritual phenomena.
2. The only “spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego) surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I – yet we are one at a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also utterly connected.
That is what makes for the greatness of “GOD” as it can have so many separate parts that are at the same time “ONE.” Contrast this with planet earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!
So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:
1. “We are the source.”
Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another form of source.
2. “Everything that can be related is relative.”
Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.
3. “With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.”
Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with eboga. And because I have recognised my humanity and how it works the doors are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate – you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.
4. My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is. They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be anything other than 100% who you are.
Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.
Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?
I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of NO MIND as you call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used along the way.
It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking some way the other who was irritated by this said: You are unclean. You touched that woman! He replied: I left that woman behind a long time ago but you are still carrying her.
Love & Light,
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell – att Jasen
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
> I hit send on my TV
> internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
> this one “brief.”
>
Hi Lee,
Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!
> In the same way there is probably a unifying field
> theory that
> explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
> there is also
> a source from which all comes and through the power of
> creation,
> which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
> created.
>
there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field. it
doesn’t need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that rises in
humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having fun with
itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a field.
> If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
> what has derived
> from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
>
we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative. Whether
you’re experiencing a lot of source, or not, you’ve no real way to know
this, because an undifferentiated field can’t be known with the mind,
there’s nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at the
source or something.
With Osho we call it “no mind.” If you’ve got a lot of it mostly you’re
happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.
> I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
> spiritual and work to
> integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
> enourages ignorance of one
> or the other.
>
My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there for the
mind that’s having trouble dealing with just how simple life actually is.
They don’t do anything because there’s no possibility you could ever be
anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us, certainly me,
regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.
> I have a question for you:
>
> Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
> through the eboga
> spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
> they be ignored or is
> a certain amount of gratiude in order?
>
Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga initiation
in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the only
“spiritual helper” I’ve encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is myself.
I’ve had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful experiences but
they’ve all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my experience.
with love
Nick
> A Happy New Year to you
>
> Lee
>
>
> — Nick Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Lee Albert [mailto:my-eboga@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
> > Hell – att Jasen
> >
> >
> > Hi Jasen,
> >
> > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
> > but I am sorry, I dont
> > think it is that simple.
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
> > insanely simple. I was in the
> > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
>
>
> =====
> http://www.my-eboga.com
>
> Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
> media available here:
>
> www.my-eboga.com/freecopy.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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