From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugwar] Single Injection Promising for Heroin Addiction
Date: January 31, 2004 at 10:26:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/31/04 11:43:08 PM, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
Get the phone number and call Dr. George E. Bigelow of Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine in Baltimore, MF.
Sorry, that is Baltimore, MD
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugwar] Single Injection Promising for Heroin Addiction
Date: January 31, 2004 at 6:39:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/31/04 10:24:55 PM, Match27552@aol.com writes:
I am very interested in becoming a part of any current study of drugs
designed to get people off heroin and keep them off. What I have read
about
buprenorphine is interesting. How could a person get involved in a study
like
this?
Any information you have would be greatly appreciated.
Get the phone number and call Dr. George E. Bigelow of Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine in Baltimore, MF.
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
From: Match27552@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugwar] Single Injection Promising for Heroin Addiction
Date: January 31, 2004 at 5:23:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
How can a person get in on this study? I’m 55 years old and have been addicted to heroin since I was 18. I have never been in jail or prison and would desperately like to get off all drugs for good. I have tried methadone for one year but I am a petroleum landman and spend most week days out of town. Methadone killed the withdrawing feelings but had their own when I quit the methadone. Like changing one dog for another except one is legal.
I am very interested in becoming a part of any current study of drugs designed to get people off heroin and keep them off. What I have read about buprenorphine is interesting. How could a person get involved in a study like this?
Any information you have would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Bill Shipman
Dixieexploration@aol.com
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugwar] Single Injection Promising for Heroin Addiction
Date: January 31, 2004 at 11:24:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jules Siegel” <siegel@cafecancun.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:11 AM
Subject: [drugwar] Single Injection Promising for Heroin Addiction
Single Injection Promising for Heroin Addiction
Fri 30 January, 2004 20:43
<http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=4252898&
section=news>
By Merritt McKinney
[Excerpt]
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) – A single dose of an experimental drug holds
promise for the treatment of heroin addiction, according to the results
of a small study.
The findings suggest that a new, long-lasting formulation of the drug
buprenorphine is safe and seems to prevent withdrawal symptoms for 6
weeks. What’s more, the long-lasting form of the drug, known as a
“depot” formulation, seems to block the effect of other opioid drugs,
the class of drugs that includes heroin and morphine.
“I believe the depot medication offers promise as a way to make
effective treatment more accessible to opioid-addicted patients without
the need to worry that the treatment medication itself might be misused
or abused,” Dr. George E. Bigelow of Johns Hopkins University School of
Medicine in Baltimore told Reuters Health.
Lead author Bigelow said he was impressed with the drug’s effectiveness
in providing long-lasting relief from symptoms of withdrawal that
usually occur when people stop taking heroin and other similar drugs.
The Johns Hopkins researcher said that more research is needed to
confirm the results of this small trial and to identify the best use of
this new formulation of buprenorphine.
—
JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764 77501-Cancun Q. Roo Mexico
http://www.madlaughter.com
Newsroom-l, news and issues for journalists
http://www.newsroom-l.net
<]=———————————————————————–=[
[ Moderated by: Preston Peet |
.drugwar.com ]
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From: “ann b mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine questions also anyone in MI.
Date: January 30, 2004 at 8:41:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thank you for this source of information.
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine questions also anyone in MI.
There are a lot of good sources for buprenorphine information.
http://buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/bwns/about.html
As to the questions, I can only respond to one. Generally the transfer
dose
from methadone to buprenorphine is considered to be 30mg/day or less.
You can also make inquires on two bulletin boards directed towards opioid
agonist treatment.
http://members.boardhost.com/SPEAKMETHADONE/
http://atwatchdog.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
In a message dated 1/30/04 4:34:06 PM, goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com writes:
—– Original Message —–
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine
I have some questions too. Whats the withdrawl time for buprenorphine?
how long is its half life? is it better or worse or possitives verse
negatives
than methadone or otheres? heroin versus bupren? .methadone versus
Buprenorphine?
i want to know whats the correct dose if your at 55 mgs of methadone?
i have lots of questions and i would also like to here from some real
people
that have used it. I know one guy that swears by it he used it as a
detoxification
method from methadone in like a week the slowly detox you and the half
life m guessing is real short! Do you feel a high from it? does it lower
your blood pressure? these are all things im considering i have heard
lots
of good things about it the only bad one was this one person that was
an alcoholic then got hooked on Vicodin e.s.7.5mgs and she sadi she was
takin 12 a day on average then she went to in patient then they but her
on the buprenorphine and i think that it was alot stronger than what shew
neede then they
released her probably on her own will cuz i dont think at the time she
knew what she was getting into. and they released her with a
buprenorphine
habit cold turkey and she said she was sick for 10 days but then againk
i would be so greatful from were i sit now looking at a vicodin habit as
a very light opiote! to mee. But i believe that if she hadnt had so much
false hope or uninformed thoughts she would have stayed longer in
treatment
and detoxed slower to were From what i hear the detox is not nearly as
bad as methadone! but thats all rumors and heresay! i think that i can
beat my metnhadone/opiate addictyion I have to io am noow 25 and have had
a hard opiate addiction for 7 yearsa doesnt sound like much but alot of
those yeasr were spent with a cancer patient sucking down700mgs of
morphine
plus a whole lota other shit peace man thats my take and i hope someonwe
can help me witrh my questions!
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine questions also anyone in MI.
Date: January 30, 2004 at 2:29:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
There are a lot of good sources for buprenorphine information.
http://buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/bwns/about.html
As to the questions, I can only respond to one. Generally the transfer dose
from methadone to buprenorphine is considered to be 30mg/day or less.
You can also make inquires on two bulletin boards directed towards opioid
agonist treatment.
http://members.boardhost.com/SPEAKMETHADONE/
http://atwatchdog.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=1
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
In a message dated 1/30/04 4:34:06 PM, goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com writes:
—– Original Message —–
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine
I have some questions too. Whats the withdrawl time for buprenorphine?
how long is its half life? is it better or worse or possitives verse
negatives
than methadone or otheres? heroin versus bupren? .methadone versus
Buprenorphine?
i want to know whats the correct dose if your at 55 mgs of methadone?
i have lots of questions and i would also like to here from some real people
that have used it. I know one guy that swears by it he used it as a
detoxification
method from methadone in like a week the slowly detox you and the half
life m guessing is real short! Do you feel a high from it? does it lower
your blood pressure? these are all things im considering i have heard lots
of good things about it the only bad one was this one person that was
an alcoholic then got hooked on Vicodin e.s.7.5mgs and she sadi she was
takin 12 a day on average then she went to in patient then they but her
on the buprenorphine and i think that it was alot stronger than what shew
neede then they
released her probably on her own will cuz i dont think at the time she
knew what she was getting into. and they released her with a buprenorphine
habit cold turkey and she said she was sick for 10 days but then againk
i would be so greatful from were i sit now looking at a vicodin habit as
a very light opiote! to mee. But i believe that if she hadnt had so much
false hope or uninformed thoughts she would have stayed longer in treatment
and detoxed slower to were From what i hear the detox is not nearly as
bad as methadone! but thats all rumors and heresay! i think that i can
beat my metnhadone/opiate addictyion I have to io am noow 25 and have had
a hard opiate addiction for 7 yearsa doesnt sound like much but alot of
those yeasr were spent with a cancer patient sucking down700mgs of morphine
plus a whole lota other shit peace man thats my take and i hope someonwe
can help me witrh my questions!
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
From: Nik <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine questions also anyone in MI.
Date: January 30, 2004 at 11:33:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine
I have some questions too. Whats the withdrawl time for buprenorphine? how long is its half life? is it better or worse or possitives verse negatives than methadone or otheres? heroin versus bupren? .methadone versus Buprenorphine? i want to know whats the correct dose if your at 55 mgs of methadone? i have lots of questions and i would also like to here from some real people that have used it. I know one guy that swears by it he used it as a detoxification method from methadone in like a week the slowly detox you and the half life m guessing is real short! Do you feel a high from it? does it lower your blood pressure? these are all things im considering i have heard lots of good things about it the only bad one was this one person that was an alcoholic then got hooked on Vicodin e.s.7.5mgs and she sadi she was takin 12 a day on average then she went to in patient then they but her on the buprenorphine and i think that it was alot stronger than what shew neede then they released her probably on her own will cuz i dont think at the time she knew what she was getting into. and they released her with a buprenorphine habit cold turkey and she said she was sick for 10 days but then againk i would be so greatful from were i sit now looking at a vicodin habit as a very light opiote! to mee. But i believe that if she hadnt had so much false hope or uninformed thoughts she would have stayed longer in treatment and detoxed slower to were From what i hear the detox is not nearly as bad as methadone! but thats all rumors and heresay! i think that i can beat my metnhadone/opiate addictyion I have to io am noow 25 and have had a hard opiate addiction for 7 yearsa doesnt sound like much but alot of those yeasr were spent with a cancer patient sucking down700mgs of morphine plus a whole lota other shit peace man thats my take and i hope someonwe can help me witrh my questions!
P.s. there is non 1 uno answer i think that if all resorces are used properly i.e heroin to buprenorphine medium speed detox from that.{comfortable never rushed] then towards the end a ibogaine treatment or three coupled with N.A.heroin anonymous. and A,.A. then dedicating some of your time helping an addict recover just like the one that i hope helps me but you gotta ask for it to work thats my take right now! times change! people change! thoughts change . as long as i/ we stay very openminded we can alwasy learn from mistakes and triumphs! Your friend in MI Kriss
addiction
> last year. It is the only opioid that is allowed to be dispensed from a
> doctors office for the treatment of opioid (heroin/oxycotontin, etc.)
dependence.
> $255.00 is on the cheap end to my understanding. Burprenophine will cause
> dependence. In other words if you stop it you will go into withdrawal.
It is
> like every other pharmaceutical product. Some people do very well with it
and
> others do not. Same for ibogaine. You will become dependent on
buprenorphine.
> It is a maintenance drug. There is a lot of information on the internet.
> Do a google.com search for buprenorphine. The US government cut a deal
with
> the manufacturer and is promoting it (collaborative research and
development
> agreement). Every drug that helps people is a good drug. Your call. If
you
> have a specific question I will try to answer it.
>
> Howard S. Lotsof
> President
> Dora Weiner Foundation
> 46 Oxford Place
> Staten Island, NY 10301
> USA
> dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
> dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
> email, dwf123@earthlink.net
> http://www.doraweiner.org
>
>
>
I
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder – Free web site building tool. Try it!
From: “ann b mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine
Date: January 29, 2004 at 8:49:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks so much for your prompt response. Questions coming up!! 🙂
ann
think@francomm.com
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine
In a message dated 1/30/04 12:53:44 AM, think@francomm.com writes:
I hope I spelled it right? I would appreciate any comments
about this drug. Is it useful? There is a doc nearby who
prescribes it but found out today that he wants $255.00 “up
front”. I would appreciate any feedback at all
Buprenorphine was approved by the FDA for the treatment of opioid
addiction
last year. It is the only opioid that is allowed to be dispensed from a
doctors office for the treatment of opioid (heroin/oxycotontin, etc.)
dependence.
$255.00 is on the cheap end to my understanding. Burprenophine will cause
dependence. In other words if you stop it you will go into withdrawal.
It is
like every other pharmaceutical product. Some people do very well with it
and
others do not. Same for ibogaine. You will become dependent on
buprenorphine.
It is a maintenance drug. There is a lot of information on the internet.
Do a google.com search for buprenorphine. The US government cut a deal
with
the manufacturer and is promoting it (collaborative research and
development
agreement). Every drug that helps people is a good drug. Your call. If
you
have a specific question I will try to answer it.
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine
Date: January 29, 2004 at 8:04:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/30/04 12:53:44 AM, think@francomm.com writes:
I hope I spelled it right? I would appreciate any comments
about this drug. Is it useful? There is a doc nearby who
prescribes it but found out today that he wants $255.00 “up
front”. I would appreciate any feedback at all
Buprenorphine was approved by the FDA for the treatment of opioid addiction
last year. It is the only opioid that is allowed to be dispensed from a
doctors office for the treatment of opioid (heroin/oxycotontin, etc.) dependence.
$255.00 is on the cheap end to my understanding. Burprenophine will cause
dependence. In other words if you stop it you will go into withdrawal. It is
like every other pharmaceutical product. Some people do very well with it and
others do not. Same for ibogaine. You will become dependent on buprenorphine.
It is a maintenance drug. There is a lot of information on the internet.
Do a google.com search for buprenorphine. The US government cut a deal with
the manufacturer and is promoting it (collaborative research and development
agreement). Every drug that helps people is a good drug. Your call. If you
have a specific question I will try to answer it.
Howard S. Lotsof
President
Dora Weiner Foundation
46 Oxford Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
USA
dir tel, 1 718 442-2754
dir fax, 1 718 442-1957
email, dwf123@earthlink.net
http://www.doraweiner.org
From: “ann b mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Buprenorphine
Date: January 29, 2004 at 7:53:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I hope I spelled it right? I would appreciate any comments
about this drug. Is it useful? There is a doc nearby who
prescribes it but found out today that he wants $255.00 “up
front”. I would appreciate any feedback at all
thanks
ann
think@francomm.com
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [drugwar] Lower HIV rates among black tar heroin users
Date: January 29, 2004 at 6:01:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think this is facinating. The fact that prohibitionists lump all drug use
of any kind into one sole category, abuse, news like this will not ever
reach a mainstream audience. I think it should obviously be noted more
widely, in that perhaps some of the mechanical reasons for the lower HIV
rates among IDUs out West could be copied here, even if the dope is
different.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Vigilius Haufniensis
To: drugwar@mindvox.com
Cc: Mr_Tracys_Corner@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 8:58 PM
Subject: [drugwar] Lower HIV rates among black tar heroin users
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2202
Lower HIV rates among black tar heroin users
Posted on Monday, 26 January 2004 @ 21:59:43 EST by BJS
Researchers have found that use of black tar heroin by injection drug users
in West Coast cities accounts for a dramatically lower percentage of
intravenous drug users in these locations who are infected with HIV. The
finding is based on comparison to East Coast cities, where powder heroin is
commonly used. Possible reasons: First, before injecting black tar heroin,
it must be heated to about 165 degrees F, according to research done
elsewhere. This temperature is sufficient for killing the HIV virus, which
limits the likelihood of HIV transmission through sharing of drug
preparation paraphernalia, according to the UCSF researchers. In addition,
black tar heroin clogs syringes, they note. Frequent rinsing and flushing is
required, reducing the amount of residual blood and HIV virus present.
From UC San Francisco:
Black tar heroin use explains lower HIV levels among injection drug users in
the Western US
UCSF researchers have found that use of black tar heroin by injection drug
users in West Coast cities accounts for a dramatically lower percentage of
IDUs in these locations who are infected with HIV. The finding is based on
comparison to East Coast cities, where powder heroin is commonly used.
“In the early 1990s, about 40 percent of IDUs in New York City were
HIV-infected, while only about four percent of IDUs in Los Angeles were
infected with HIV. Yet in both cities, about 25 percent of gay men were
HIV-infected. The solution to this discrepancy is found in the distribution
and use of black tar heroin and is due to its unique chemical properties,”
said the study’s lead author, Daniel H. Ciccarone, MD, MPH, assistant
professor in the UCSF departments of family and community medicine and of
anthropology, history and social medicine.
The study, published in the December 2003 issue of Substance Use & Misuse,
examined data from the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) on the predominant
types of heroin used in 20 US cities from 1990 to 1993. This data was
compared with estimates published in the American Journal of Public Health
in 1996 of the percentages of both IDUs and gay men infected with HIV in the
same cities during the same time frame.
In cities west of the Mississippi, black tar heroin – a dark, gummy,
resinous substance from Mexico – is the type of heroin predominately
available. On the East Coast, white and light brown powder heroin from South
Asia and South America is the type predominately available. Study findings
showed the percentage of IDUs infected with HIV was sharply lower in cities
where black tar heroin use predominated compared to cities where powder
heroin use predominated, a pattern that was not mirrored in the percentages
of HIV-infected gay men.
Using ethnographic, clinical, epidemiological, and laboratory data,
researchers determined that black tar use by IDUs could lead to less HIV
transmission. First, before injecting black tar heroin, it must be heated to
about 165 degrees F, according to research done elsewhere. This temperature
is sufficient for killing the HIV virus, which limits the likelihood of HIV
transmission through sharing of drug preparation paraphernalia, according to
the UCSF researchers.
In addition, black tar heroin clogs syringes, they note. Frequent rinsing
and flushing is required, reducing the amount of residual blood and HIV
virus present.
“In California, injectors are constantly complaining that their needles
clog. They almost always rinse their syringes immediately after shooting up
in order to keep them from jamming. The grounds of shooting encampments and
the walls of shooting galleries are wet from the water that they squirt
through their used needles. This is not the case in New York, where white
powder heroin does not ‘gum up’ needles. Laboratory studies have shown that
rinsing syringes copiously with water works well to clean out HIV,” said the
study’s co-author, Philippe Bourgois, PhD, professor and chair of the UCSF
Department of Anthropology, History, and Social Medicine.
Moreover, using gummy black tar heroin ruins syringes, leading to increased
turnover of syringes. “Black tar injectors rarely report using a single
syringe more than five times, while powder heroin users claim many more uses
out of their syringes,” said Ciccarone.
The study also noted that injecting black tar heroin leads rapidly to venous
sclerosis – a condition that results in the loss of veins for injection
sites. Thus, black tar heroin users are much quicker to move to subcutaneous
and intramuscular injecting. Studies have shown that these are not as
efficient as venous injection for transmitting HIV.
“We believe that we have solved this longstanding epidemiological puzzle
thanks to multidisciplinary science and data from the DEA on the types and
distribution patterns of heroin. This data is valuable to public health
authorities. Consider that if powder heroin were to become more widely
available on the West Coast, public health agencies would need to prepare
for the possibility that currently successful interventions to prevent HIV
transmission among IDUs may lose much of their effectiveness,” said
Ciccarone.
“Likewise, while black tar heroin use becoming predominate on the East Coast
may positively affect HIV transmission rates among IDUs, public health offic
ials will need to be aware in order to prepare for the different risks
associated with its use. The increased intramuscular injecting associated
with black tar heroin use leads to higher rates of abscesses, wound
botulism, tetanus, gas gangrene, and necrotizing fasciitis. In fact, soft
tissue infections are the number one medical/surgical admission at San
Francisco General Hospital,” said Ciccarone.
From: nruhtra@dsskcorp.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] sport
Date: January 28, 2004 at 12:17:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
i think laibach is the best thing to come outa Slovenija. shit off topic
again sorry.
n
Whatdayathink?
😉
Marko
From: Marko <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] sport
Date: January 28, 2004 at 4:56:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all,
EU championship in handball is going on right now in Slovenija. Our team
hasn’t lost yet and is in second round now, and everybody here are
suddenly great handball fans…
The same happened when my home town football (soccer) team qualified for
whatever EU cup finals – everybody was great football (soccer) fans…
I guess that this pattern repeats in every country and certain sport has
great nation-wide support during certain contests…
… so I propose a new sport; could be called IBOGAINISING. Perhaps it
could be combined with very popular sport called EXTREME COUCHING (where
people lay on the couch for extreme periods of time, ususally watching TV)
Perhaps we could establish an Ibogainising club in every country (maybe
even in every town?), and later establish a world-wide federation? With
support on the Internet, of course!
I’m quite sure that this would popularise Ibogaine!
If you have doubts about this idea, please see Extreme Ironing at
http://www.extremeironing.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=albums.php&set_albumListPage=1
If they could make such a popular sport from dull household work, then we
can do even better!!
Of course, rules for Ibogainising should be set, and all this paperwork…
but I think it’s worth the efford!
Whatdayathink?
😉
Marko
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] mindvox made with what please
Date: January 27, 2004 at 9:05:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Bill Ross, am I in the spirit of Mindvox and do I at least get a lousy
alias now???? 😉 🙂 🙂
Oops, forgot to mention, I’m not an authority.. however diagnosing
mindvox’s innards (tho fascinating) probably isn’t the same as
finding your inner mindvox.
🙂
Bill
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] mindvox made with what please
Date: January 27, 2004 at 8:49:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Harv Raskin <sputnik@post.com> wrote:
I am having a hard time tryi
ng to do the same thing with much simpler pages using Dreamweaver mx
and Frontpage, neither one will do anything like it. if I take even
the page parts that will download on a single page and try to load it
into Dreamweaver to see how it is made, it breaks and won’t put it
back together. How do you do this please?
Thanks for any help
Use carriage returns?
Read the source code?
Go to html school for 5 years?
Read this until it makes sense?
http://www.apple.com/webobjects/specs.html
I think Mindvox is made by going to a unix shell and typing vi then
coding 🙂 Parts of it are macromedia and photoshop graphics slices but
the rest looks by hand. How does it work is by loading a 800 line long
css file for every different machine including suns 🙂
Or go to the word wide web standards page and try to validate mindvox:
http://validator.w3.org
According to their site it won’t work with anything 🙂 Of course it
looks like it works with everything.
It says on one of the 100000 tag lines ‘Made wif Crack!’ there’s your
answer! 🙂
Bill Ross, am I in the spirit of Mindvox and do I at least get a lousy
alias now???? 😉 🙂 🙂
.:vector:.
Technical answer rep for Mindvox
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder – Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
From: “Harv Raskin” <sputnik@post.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] mindvox made with what please
Date: January 27, 2004 at 8:10:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi I tried leaving email but none of the email addresses that are listed work, it says “cannot find user” I took them from here http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=About/VoxBios.html
I got the link to Mindvox here and like it very much but I have questions please. http://www.magic-mushrooms.net/psychedelic-art.html I really like the whole site but what is it?? The link says it is psychedelic art and I see that but I don’t understand anything is it being serious? The question I have about the whole site is how is it made? I tried to download it using HTTrack and vbCity website downloader. Neither one downloads anything at all, not even the main page. It downloads either a blank page which is totally empty or it downloads one link which is a link and nothing else. It won’t follow anything. When I try to save any page on the site, it will only save the text and some of the graphics, the rest are not there at all it is only empty space. What I would like to know is what tools is mindvox made with please. How do you make the purple frames that change sizes around the text and graphics and how do you make it work with all browsers? I am having a hard time tryi
ng to do the same thing with much simpler pages using Dreamweaver mx and Frontpage, neither one will do anything like it. if I take even the page parts that will download on a single page and try to load it into Dreamweaver to see how it is made, it breaks and won’t put it back together. How do you do this please?
Thanks for any help
—
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] Jon M. testamoney
Date: January 27, 2004 at 8:35:47 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Friends
I am writing this to endorse Sara’s House as I just kicked a 140 mg. habit a bundle a day of heroin on top of the methadone (HARLEM LIFE METHADONE CLINIC-121 AND LEXININGTON-New York City) as well as 4 Xanex sticks a days and 8 kolonopins.
I have never even imagined this was possible as I Have been to the best treatment centres all over the world. Menninger Foundation Tokeka Kansas. I was there a year and suffered was put through endless painful experiences that made me worse and more emotionally traumatized –I had the same failures at every methadone clinic or methadone detox such as Medical arts (12 different detox’s—all painful and uninsightful) Medical arts 57 w.57 st. N.Y.C. N.Y.
I also tried Elan in Maine-McNeil in Illinois and Pacific hills in California o sick and
Couldn’t handle being locked down –poked and prodded-stuck in endless
Stupid N.A. meetings and A.A meetings-I even tried N.A. with all my heart but it’s the blind leading the blind with slogans and talking in bumper stickers—I.E the 12 and 12—the steps a sponsor—I did it all and I made a meeting a day for 90 days and guess what—
All I ever wanted to do was get that euphoric high back-and then CAME SARA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sara’s House is too good to be believed. A [place anyone even a college graduate SON OF A LAWYER AND COLLEGE PROFFESSOR LIKE ME CAN COME NEXT TO AN English
Crack and heroin USER OR A TOUGH American Black Man of20 years of 175 Mg. of Methadone and were it is all safe all honest and were there are no cops-no doctors
No locked doors—and no detox needed for Sara has cracked what the National Council On Drug abuse is impotent against for they are bound by laws over protection
Them the Pharmaceutical industry and they would rather have 100,000 addicts
And have them coming back every day for there legal fix-for addiction is big business for doctors nurses judges cops d.e.a.-f.b.i.- law enforcement Interpol- and drug councillors and after care and medical and social welfare system that one gets trapped into and can never get out of.
SARA HAS MADE A 4-6 MONTH WITHDRAWEL GO AWAY INSTANTLY
AND IF ANYONE DOUGHT S MY WORDS-PLEASE-PLEASE-CALL ME AT 347-2491886
I Can honestly say I came here and couldn’t believe it—3 daughters ages 9 13,and 17—all sweet beautiful and 2 brothers ages 5 and 16. In America addicts are considered
Dangerous—would you leave a stranger—hard core addict with your children
In your home unsupervised—WELL THIS LITTLE ISREALY WOMAN IN THE NETHERLANDS HAS CRSACKED ADDICTION WIDE OPEN BE IT COMPUSIVE BEHIOR GAMLING OR EATING DISORDER—HEROIN, CRACK, ALCOHOL
Benzo”s even Cancer—now I know that sounds improbable and impossible.
I couldn’t believe what I’d seen done to William-to Liz to and Jack—all walked off
10 year or more Heroin and Xanex addictions with no sweats
no Back aches-no insomnia-I am sleeping like a baby and only missed 2 nights of sleep were as it usually takes 6 agonizing months and Leaves on so wore down
Relapse is inevitable.
I am eating like a starved growing boy at age 45 and with in a day or to after getting here—and allowing the treatment to begin
Here you can have the best in dairy meats poultry and Sara accommodates Kosher or vegetarian. ————
–there is no excuse not to come here if one really wants to get out of the endless cycle of drug addiction
I’ve been to Amsterdam alone 3 times were all drugs are readily available on the street and I have my mind back—I’d no more want to unleash my addiction than I want to eat out of some dirty street persons hands food of the ground. Before my addiction was so strong I have spent all my money on heroin and forget food or anything let alone grooming or family
Or my own real life needs—Id become an empty vessel just one raw epodes
Aching nerve—
This treatment gave me back not only my health physically but my thirst for life the ability to dream and believe in myself for the fear behind any addiction kills ones soul if failure in kicking is become ones own secret companion –we all feel like you did that but I –I AM DIFFERENT—I CAN OR MY HABBIT IS WORSE OR MY BOPDY CANT OR MY MIND CANR ANDD THE MOST DABGEROUS –I HAVRE TO LKEAVE SARAS BESAUSE THE WORLD IS CALLING OR MY GIRLFRIEND OR WORK AND IF ONE RUNS BACK TO THE FIRE AND DOESN’T LET SARA DO HER FULL TREATMENT ON IS PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULETER WITH THERE TREATMENT.
I KNOW-I CAME HERE ONCE BEFOR AND LEFT BACK TO NY FOR COURT AFER A WEEK __I RELAPSED THEN AS The treatment process takes 2-3 weeks to filter and in all reality it is a miracle that in 2-3 weeks ones body can start to fully heal not just from the drugs but lack of real R.E.M. sleep and lack of proper nutrition s well as the toxins and impurities all be filtered out and for one to have mental clarity and emotional well being. Which sounds liken an impossibly tall order?
Sara’s house has no locked doors no cops no restraints no hassles and
The real family environment great food –open land as far as your eye can see.
No doctor or medical facility possibly touch this even if they wanted to they don’t have Sara knowledge-experience-environment and legal ability to treat this Monstrous fatal disease for they are bound by protocol-formality laws that are absurd and
Lack of a true healers heart spirit and knowledge.. It’s beyond homeopathic which is new age Bullshit—its Dear Friends
I am writing this to endorse Sara’s House as I just kicked a 140 mg. habit a bundle a day of heroin on top of the methadone (HARLEM LIFE METHADONE CLINIC-121 AND LEXININGTON-New York City) as well as 4 Xanex sticks a days and 8 kolonopins.
I have never even imagined this was possible as I have been to the best treatment centres all over the world. Menninger Foundation Tokeka Kansas. I was there a year and suffered was put through endless painful experiences that made worse and more emotionally traumatized –I had the same failures at every methadone clinic or methadone detox such as Medical arts (12 different detox’s—all painful and uninsightful) Medical arts 57 w.57 st. N.Y.C. N.Y.
I also tried Elan in Maine-Mcneil in Illinois—I tried Pacific hills inCalifornia-I was to sick and
Couldn’t handle being locked down –poked and prodded-stuck in endless
Stupid N.A. meetings and A.A meetings-I even tried N.A. with all my heart but it’s the blind leading the blind with slogans and talking in bumper stickers—I.E the 12 and 12—the steps a sponsor—I did it all and I made a meeting a day for 90 days and guess what—
All I ever wanted to do was get that euphoric high back-and then CAME SARA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sara’s House is to good to be believed. A [place were a college graduate SON OF A LAWYER AND COLLEGE PROFFESSOR LIKE ME CAN COME NEXT TO AN English
Crack and heroin USER OR A TOUGH American Black Man of 20 years of 175 Mg. of Methadone and were its all safe all honest and were there are no cops-no doctors
No locked doors—and no detox needed for Sara has cracked what the National Council On Drug abuse is impotent against for they are bound by lays over protection
Them the Pharmaceuticals industry and they would rather have 10,000 addicts
And have them coming back every day fir there legal fix-for addiction is big business for doctors nurses judges ciops d,,ea law enforcement and drug councillors and after care and medical and social welfare system that one gets trapped into and can never get out of.
SARA HAS MADE A 4-6 MONTH WITHDRAWEL GO AWAY INSTANTLY
AND IF ANYONE DOUGHT S MY WORDS-PLEASE-PLEASE-CALL ME AT 347-2491886
I Can honestly say I came here and couldn’t believe it—3 daughters ages 913,and 17—all sweet beautiful and 2 brothers ages 5 and 16. In America addicts are considered
Dangerous—would you leave a stranger—hard core addict with your children
In your home unsupervised—WELL THIS LITTLE ISREALY WOMAN IN THE NETHERLANDS HAS CRSACKED ADDICTION WIDE OPEN BE IT COMPUSIVE BEHIOR GAMLING OR EATING DISORDER—HERO8N CRACK ALCOHOL
Benzo”s even Cancer—now I know that sounds improbable and impossible.
I couldn’t believe what I’d seen done to William-to Liz to and Jack—all walled off
10 year or more Heroin and Xanex addictions with no sweats
no Back aches-no insomnia-I am sleeping like a baby and only missed 2 nights of sleep were as it usually takes 6 agonizing months and Leaves on so wore down
Relapse is inevitable.
I am eating like a starved growing boy age 45 and with in a day or to after getting here—and
Here you can have the best in dairy meats poultry and Sara accommodates Kosher
–there is no excuse not to come here if one really wants to get out of the endless cycle of drug addiction
I’ve been to Amste4rdam alone 3 times were all drugs are readily available on the street and I have my mind back—I’d no more want to unleash my addiction than I want to eat out of some dirty street persons hands food of the ground. Before my addiction was so strong I have spent all my money on heroin and forget food or anything let alone grooming or family
Or my own real life needs—Id become an empty vessel just one raw epodes
Aching nerve—
This treatment gave me back not only my health physically but my thirst for life the ability to dream and believe in myself for the fear behind any addiction kills ones soul if failure in kicking is become ones own secret companion –we all feel like you did that but I –I AM DIFFERENT—I CAN OR MY HABBIT IS WORSE OR MY BOPDY CANT OR MY MIND CANR ANDD THE MOST DABGEROUS –I HAVRE TO LKEAVE SARAS BESAUSE THE WORLD IS CALLING OR MY GIRLFRIEND OR WORK AND IF ONE RUNS BACK TO THE FIRE AND DOESN’T LET SARA DO HER FULL TREATMENT ON IS PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULETER WITH THERE TREATMENT.
I KNOW-I CAME HERE ONCE BEFOR AND LEFT BACK TO NY FOR COURT AFER A WEEK __i RELAPSED THEN AS The treatment process takes 2-3 weeks to filter and in all reality it is a miracle that in 2-3 weeks ones body can start to fully heal not just from the drugs but lack of real R.E.M. sleep and lack of proper nutrition s well as the toxins and impurities to all be filtered out and for one to have mental clarity and emotional well being. That sounds like an impossible tall order.
Sara’s house has not locked doors no cops no restraints no hassles and
The real family environment great food –open land as far as your eye can see.
No doctor or medical facility can possibly touch this even if they wanted to they don’t have Sara knowledge-experience-environment and legal ability to treat this Monstrous fatal disease for they are bound by protocol-formality laws that are absurd and
Lack of a true healers heart spirit and knowledge. It’s beyond homeopathic which is new age Bullshit—it’s a Gestalt holistic healing. Children Rabbits sheep-land kids fresh dairy and all milks and cheeses being write from the farmer aid in putting back energy and life into ones drained body.
The Mystery to this is not to be minimized in the herbs (all organic and grown with out pollutants or chemicals) roots teas
is a Gestalt holistic healing. Children Rabbits sheep-land kids fresh dairy and all milks and cheeses being write from the farmer aid in putting back energy and life into ones drained body.
The Mystery to this is not to be minimized in the herbs (all organic and grown with out pollutants or chemicals) roots teas seeds and old world formulas that are as real as aspirin or penicillin. Sara can detox anyone from any addiction-Barbiturates-opiates synthetics such as methadone (Me) not to mention compulsive behaviours such as eating and smoking. Sara accomplishes all this with out the patient feeling like a p[patient or suffering at all.
This is what Lourdes is supposed to be for cripples and hunch backs and I do not believe in Lourdes or any new age or superstitious things. I am a man of science and doubted this and tried to shoot this down with all my strength. The environment here is so wholesome it would disarm any one is a true equalizer for all of us were born clean and open to goodness God and Life. Dope is all a lie and keeps one living in the shadows of life. I didn’t even see this until I had my 4th Iboga experience. I have stayed here for 1 month. This is too serious to play with. I wasn’t leaving to I could eat sleep laugh and be happy playing with children-and strong enough to bike ride in the cold winter here and be strong healthy and content with myself—no regrets and no guilt or fear or anger—But a quiet contentment a inner peace and a connection back to my music life family and the person I was 30 years ago before I got on the unstoppable rollercoaster of addiction. 5 years in prison for a college Grad son of a lawyer shows how far left I went instead of taking advantage of the Love Money and opportunity that my Parents had provided me. I shot down private schools and wholesome friends to associate with junkies in the Ghettoes of Chicago and N.Y because of inner pains and fears and doubts that stemmed from My parents divorce my being very short as a child and overcompensating by being either the best at sports and school or giving up and preferring being the BADDEST IF I COULDN’T BGE THE BEST.
I can honestly say as a Bar Mitzvah Jew that my training values all went out the window once I was truly hooked on dope as of age 16.
I call this ther ATOMIC AIR CONDITIONER—THIS IS NUCLEOT REHAB OR 10 YEARS OF THERAPY IN 1 week.
The seizures and flat lining associated with Benzo’s and alcohol detox and the damn near suicidal depression of kicking opiates-= doesn’t even come into the picture. For I have more faith in Sara than any medical or quote professional treatment centers that are run by the medical community. This is a 24 hour a day 7day a week treatment that feels as wholesome as summer camp and as less painful than a serious flue and has worked for male, female-white-black young and old all equally well. The real truth and key to making this stick and be a permanent change is staying here long enough for your health to be 100% and for ones mind to process all the information of the insights one can possibly miss through the treatment
That only Sara can provide. This treatment is a fraction of the cost of treatment elsewhere that isn’t even successful as this is or that utilizes natures own remedies that have eluded western knowledge for centuries. There is a cure for addiction-.A. Is wrong—addiction doesn’t have to be a life long disease, in remission always being on guard against relapse and unable to have a social drink etc…
That mode of thinking is like Christian science followers who wont go to doctors to set even a broken bone—they are trapped by their ignorance and locked into a religious mode that doesn’t account for the advances in medicine –though these advanced are great in Heart Transplant or Aero Space-=—we still cant cure addiction using traditional western medicine any more than we can cure the common cold.
So for me to see natural ways to detour cancer used here at Sara’s and a perfect way
Of detoxing people leaves my jaw on the floor and my sensibilities boggled—I swear on My soul-Family and life that this endorsement
Is real and from my heart and of my own volition in providing for you as well as both my # and through family so you have no excuse to doubt this- I have already referred people who have come from the states and this is the Gods truth
Today is Jan 28th 2004 and this testimony of mine is the beginning of a new life and as I leave
Here-I can say in all honesty-I have used no sleeping pills or chemicals to aid me in what I never could have done even with Iboga with out Sara’s supervision and all the other ingredients and components that make this treatment what it is—a mitzvah-or a God send—It is a key and map and transition back to life.
Jonathan Mishne
@family@ 212-799-3588
@cell-347-249-1886
From: “Jamilah” <jamilah@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] so sad
Date: January 25, 2004 at 2:37:54 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Salaams Mustafa;
I’d love to know your story.
My email is Jamilah@rcn.org
Peace,
Jamilah
—– Original Message —–
From: Mustafa izgi
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 3:49 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] so sad
Dear Friends,
This group saved my life; gave me new hope for keep on my life. Iboga foundation is the maybe only one thing that help addicted people all around the world; I’m gratefull to everybody who tried to help me specialy Amon and Sara.
Best Regards
Mustafa Izgi
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iboga Foundation deleted
Date: January 25, 2004 at 2:41:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Vector, you really need to find your inner mindvox first.
Forgot to add a smiley.. 🙂
Bill
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iboga Foundation deleted
Date: January 25, 2004 at 2:28:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
A POP account. $100 for a year.
…
Come on. You gave him a shell inside phantom! He’s sending from pine!
Come on come on come on. $100 for a POP it will take you 2 minutes to
set up!
I will pay $100 a year to have POP where I can have email which says
vector@mindvox.com
Vector, you really need to find your inner mindvox first.
Bill
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iboga Foundation deleted
Date: January 25, 2004 at 3:50:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That’s great Marko, I’ve asked for only a alias at mindvox for over 2
years now and haven’t had one message or email answered 🙁
C’mon! You have two domains, two two two domains, phantom and mindvox.
I will pay $100 a year to have POP where I can have email which says
vector@mindvox.com
Not vector323984239 or vector20042004 or vector 400000000.
vector@mindvox.com
A POP account. $100 for a year. I do not expect miracles. If it works
90% of the time I’ll be happy.
Come on. You gave him a shell inside phantom! He’s sending from pine!
Come on come on come on. $100 for a POP it will take you 2 minutes to
set up!
.:vector:.
— Marko Resinovic <marko@mindvox.com> wrote:
I received several private questions, basically, what are my other
E-mail
addresses… I’d like to answer to everybody at once ;-))
And sorry, I forgot <sigh>
So, this is THE adresse I’m using lately 😉
And another one, for those interested exclusively in IBO HCl and the
Sacrament of Transition, can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/ibopictures/price.html
Iboga Foundation is gone, but Sacrament of Transition lives on and
fortifies. VIVA RELIGIA!!
And with a bit of luck, our on-line temple will be
finished…eee….soon…?…eee….prolly next month….or perhaps
next
year….or next decade…?…I dunno, sometime in the future….it’s
mainly in God’s <ooups!> hands…
Marko
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, IBOGA Foundation wrote:
Hi all,
I’d just like to notify you that I had to delete Iboga Foundation
on
December 31, 2003.
After almost 10 years of work, we ran out of institutions to talk
to, as
well as out of money.
Sad but true.
At the moment, legal processes to erase the Foundation are going
on.
When they will be finished and someone at ARNES (provider of this
E-mail
account) realises that there’s no more need (or no more legal
reason) for
this account, they’ll delete it. Permanently. And nobody knows when
this
will happen…
If anyone needs me, please use my other E-mail addresses. Thank
you.
Marko
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder – Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
From: NeekaBhushan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] so sad
Date: January 24, 2004 at 8:43:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
PS: My name is Monika Kumari Bhushan (I have a East Indian father, and Eastern Europe and European Mom). My E-address is my nickname and my last name (no space), NeekaBhushan@aol.com
From: NeekaBhushan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] so sad
Date: January 24, 2004 at 8:41:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello, I don’t know your name/id, but “hi,” and I agree; This group rules!!!
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Dang!
Date: January 24, 2004 at 7:57:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I will NEVER have enough time to check out all those sites!!
Cool! Thanks! Callie
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] sucks that people could be gettin help from ibo and cant!
Date: January 24, 2004 at 7:03:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/24/04 5:12:04 PM, goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com writes:
Hi i am 25 and detoxing on methadone yet again but with absolutly no
intention
of ever going back to heroin or other opiates. this disease is
scary(addiction).
I am gonna be going to an inpatient rehab center in about 3 weeks maybe
two i was at 115mgs of met.i am now at 60mgs and have been detoxing 1mg
a day but obviosuly its gonna have to start going faster.i am scared! to
be honest. not of loiving with out opiate glow but juust the sheer length
of withdrawl!
The Ibogaine Dossier
http://www.ibogaine.org
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl
http://www.doraweiner.org
WHATS NEW
http://www.ibogaine.org/whatsnew.html
http://www.ibogaine.org/links.html
Brochure for confernce on drug user activism
http://www.doraweiner.org/contentsbf.html
************************************
Multi conference ibogaine reports
http://www.doraweiner.org/e_w_report.html
Introduction
California Society of Addiction Medicine conference
Stanley D. Glick, MD, PhD
Deborah C. Mash, PhD and Jeffrey Kamlet, MD
Dorit Ron, PhD
Office Based Treatment with Buprenorphine
Invitational Conference on Drug User Activism
Overview
International Drug Users Day
Tenth Anniversary Celebration of BrugerForeningen
Drug Policy Alliance 2003 Biennial conference
DPA Mission Statement
Conference Review
Plenary
Ibogaine Roundtable
Prescribing Heroin
Harm Reduction Psychotherapy
Methadone and Buprenorphine
Pain, Opiates and Opiophobia
Reverend Edwin Sander, II
Exhibits
1. MP3 Recordings of CSAM ibogaine presentations
2. California Society of Addiction Medicine (CSAM) web page
3. Brochure – Conference on Drug User Activism
http://www.doraweiner.org/coverbf.html
4. Danish Drug Users Union web page
5. Drug Policy Alliance (DPA) Web page
************************************
Case Studies of Ibogaine Treatment: Implications for Patient Management
Strategies by Howard S. Lotsof and Norma E. Alexander provides examples of ibogaine
use from its drug user beginnings through clinical development. Explicit
examples of the experience as well as discussion of psychological aftereffects and
dreamlike visualization make this chapter a must read for patients and
researchers alike. http://www.dorweiner.org/alexanderlotsof.html
Search and translator functions have been added to the Ibogaine Dossier. The
Dossier can now be searched by subject as well as, translated into French,
German, Spanish and some other languages.
http://www.ibogaine.org/search.html
State of the art information on ibogaine therapy in The Manual for Ibogaine
Therapy, second revision, 2003. http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html
The Contemporary History of Ibogaine in the United States and Europe
http://www.ibogaine.org/history.html
An art gallery of ibogaine inspired paintings and photographs has been added
http://www.ibogaine.org/gallery.html
Ibogaine politics – political images in action
http://www.ibogaine.org/polgraph.html
NEW** Great Bwiti photographs and more!!
http://www.ibogaine.org/sazy.html
http://www.ibogaine.org/gollnhofer.html
Claudio Naranjo’s chapter on ibogaine from his book the Healing Journey.
http://www.ibogaine.org/naranjo.html
Use in the treatment of addiction
http://www.Ibogaine.org/clin-perspectives.html
** Tripping on Iboga. Daniel Pinchbeck’s amazing story of his search to
experience iboga (Tabernanthe iboga) the source of ibogaine used in African
religious rituals. http://www.salon.com/travel/feature/1999/11/03/iboga/
Photographs are universal in any language
<http://www.f-i-a.org/ebando/revelations.htm>
http://www.ibogaine.co.uk **Major UK page**
The Dreaming” http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/platt.htm
Brief non technical history
http://www.ibogaine.org/citysun.html
Conference on Ibogaine will be held at New York University School
of Medicine on November 5 and 6, 1999. A Conference web page has been
set up, and the URL is, http://www.med.nyu.edu/Psych/ibogaineconf/
(The conference is over but, the web page remains an excellent source of
information.)
Thorough scientific review of all ibogaine research. Drs. Popik & Skolnick,
Academic Press. http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html
General Review of Ibogaine including history, chemistry, botany, ethnography
http://www.Ibogaine.org/Bwiti1.html
—————————————————-
Scientific review of Ibogaine
http://www.Ibogaine.org/review-dotf.html
—————————————————–
Religious use in Bwiti religion of Africa
http://www.Ibogaine.org/fernandez.html
http://www.ibogaine.org/barabe.html
http://www.ibogaine.org/samorini.html
—————————————————–
SITES
http://www.addictionfoundation.com/
http://www.mindvox.com
http://www.erowid.com/entheogens/ibogaine/ibogaine.shtml
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/ (search term ibogaine)
http://kaput.com/Getting_Ready/Escape/Ibogain/ibogain.html (botanical)
http://ibogaine.lycaeum.org/
http://www.lycaeum.org (search page for psychedelics and select ibogaine)
different then url above.
http://www.pcworks.demon.co.uk/magazine/campaign/ibogaine.htm
http://www.ibogatherapyhouse.org
http://www.ibogaine-research.org/Ibogaine-Research-Project/Ibogaine.htm
http://www.nettuno.it/electric-italy/ibogaine.htm
http://www.ustanova-iboga.si (Slovenian language)
http://www.schmoo.co.uk/iboa.htm
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/ (search engine)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ (medline search)
http://www.uspto.gov/patft/ (U.S. Patent Office – for patent searches)
http://www.european-patent-office.org/ (European patent office -for patent
searches)
http://www.televideonet.com.br/usuarios/dr.bruno/ibo.htm
<First portogues language ibogaine page>
(French language) Bwiti
http://perso.club-internet.fr/ideesun/table_m.htm
From: <deartheo@ziplip.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Nick in D
Date: January 24, 2004 at 1:47:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick,
I would agree that if you don’t have to go down so quickly that I would slow it down a bit if you can. Is their a certain amount of time you need to kick by? I’m sure you have already tasted a bit of the sickness, but in my experience, if I continued to go down consistently on my dose, like 5 ml/day for example, eventually making the sickness feedback in circles because not enough time to ‘stabalize’ or whatever. It seems to take at least 3 to 4 weeks to get the main sick out of the systM from going down.
I think I had a hard time going down at the ‘for profit’ clinics then the free/sliding scale clinics. This was justified by saying why should I not get as much product (methadone/orlaam) for my money. Sure, $250 per month is nothing compaired to what I was spending on the street version of the sickness, but that is still a car payment.
One of the last things my ‘methadone couns. told me before I kicked and told him ‘I’m a bit nervious about kicking’, ‘You should be.” He said. The other thing to consider, of course, is how stable of environment will you be awaking to?
Nick, I wish you all the best. Just give the sickness the respect it deserves and I think you will be fine. I do think that dosing with iboga even a year or two after you kick would help so much. Have you considered going down on your dose like (I’m conservative regarding this) 1 ml per 3 or 4 weeks. Buy some time, get dose level down, while saving for iboga treatment during physical kick? I think that would be preferred but I’m not sure if it’s possible.
Let me know if I can help in any way.
-J
—–Original Message—–
From: Nik [mailto:goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004, 9:11 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] sucks that people could be gettin help from ibo and
cant!
Hi i am 25 and detoxing on methadone yet again but with absolutly no intention
of ever going back to heroin or other opiates. this disease is
scary(addiction). I am gonna be going to an inpatient rehab center in about 3
weeks maybe two i was at 115mgs of met.i am now at 60mgs and have been
detoxing 1mg a day but obviosuly its gonna have to start going faster.i am
scared! to be honest. not of loiving with out opiate glow but juust the sheer
length of withdrawl! i have been on this site for 3 or 4 years and have been
on meth for i think 2 years 8 months ghoing on three well anyways i have done
opiates basically my entire adult life and lots of other drugs most of the
first part i go to A.A. N.A. sometimes i have even been known to go to
methadone anonymous. but im still using meth even if its not enogh to sustain
me or whatever the funk oyu want to cxall it. I know that if Iboga/ibogaine or
some of the other intermediate alkaloids i would have pursued them at one
point i almost had
enough money to get oon a plane to san diego to try the clinic down thgere. I
just wish i had that as an option to try the ibogaine i mean i dont dsee how
the govewrment can keep something illegal if it can help the most needy
people in this country i do believe i have been a drain on socitey derictly
caused by my opiate addiction. and if there is soemething that can ease the
withdrawl and open ones mind and heart at the same time wh7y the PHUNK NOT?
well i am in detroit michigan i here that you can get iboga in canada btu how
much is it you know i know that i need help not just with the physicall part
but all the other aspects that go along with methadone maintanence. Met.
maintenance is mnot the right word for what it really is it is a great way to
control people ill tell ya that but if anyone has had a similar experience to
what im going through or goin to go throught let mne know.I am still skeptical
about iboga i have heard soem horrible stories but i think there could be
soem great benifits to just taking the lower doses during early withdrawl.
let me know and i also want to know of some other suites i can go to to learn
more the pros and cons. I will probably eventualy try to do the iboga but it
will probably be long after i go through the actual withdrawl.from this evil
methadone habit I impossed on myself! well yours truly a scared25yr old
methadone addict from detroit NICK!
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:High,
You really want to go check the link below out! :-)) It’s free and it’s
legal!
Thanx & have A Hempy Day,
Lynne Wilson, Dir.
The Happy Hemptress
HempRock Productions
513-68-4-HEMP vm/fax
www.hemprock.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Ross Hamilton [mailto:ophi@greatserpentmound.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 2:26 AM
To: happy hemptress
Subject: Tripwonker
http://www.verylowsodium.com/tripwonker.php
———————————
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder – Free web site building tool. Try it!
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Nick in Detroit
Date: January 24, 2004 at 12:43:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick!
I admire you for detoxing from Methadone! That is great!
Is there any way you can slow your detox down a bit? A milligram a day is pretty fast. I mean I am sure you could detox that way but I am afraid you might be so uncomfortable that you are setting yourself up to relapse. I am glad you will be in an inpatient treatment setting. Realistically though, if you are sick from withdrawals you will not be able to concentrate on what you are given to do in treatment.
You sound like you have made the decision to not return to opiates and that is important.
Pray a LOT! I will be thinking of you. Keep us posted!
Callie
From: Nik <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] sucks that people could be gettin help from ibo and cant!
Date: January 24, 2004 at 12:11:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi i am 25 and detoxing on methadone yet again but with absolutly no intention of ever going back to heroin or other opiates. this disease is scary(addiction). I am gonna be going to an inpatient rehab center in about 3 weeks maybe two i was at 115mgs of met.i am now at 60mgs and have been detoxing 1mg a day but obviosuly its gonna have to start going faster.i am scared! to be honest. not of loiving with out opiate glow but juust the sheer length of withdrawl! i have been on this site for 3 or 4 years and have been on meth for i think 2 years 8 months ghoing on three well anyways i have done opiates basically my entire adult life and lots of other drugs most of the first part i go to A.A. N.A. sometimes i have even been known to go to methadone anonymous. but im still using meth even if its not enogh to sustain me or whatever the funk oyu want to cxall it. I know that if Iboga/ibogaine or some of the other intermediate alkaloids i would have pursued them at one point i almost had enough money to get oon a plane to san diego to try the clinic down thgere. I just wish i had that as an option to try the ibogaine i mean i dont dsee how the govewrment can keep something illegal if it can help the most needy people in this country i do believe i have been a drain on socitey derictly caused by my opiate addiction. and if there is soemething that can ease the withdrawl and open ones mind and heart at the same time wh7y the PHUNK NOT? well i am in detroit michigan i here that you can get iboga in canada btu how much is it you know i know that i need help not just with the physicall part but all the other aspects that go along with methadone maintanence. Met. maintenance is mnot the right word for what it really is it is a great way to control people ill tell ya that but if anyone has had a similar experience to what im going through or goin to go throught let mne know.I am still skeptical about iboga i have heard soem horrible stories but i think there could be soem great benifits to just taking the lower doses during early withdrawl. let me know and i also want to know of some other suites i can go to to learn more the pros and cons. I will probably eventualy try to do the iboga but it will probably be long after i go through the actual withdrawl.from this evil methadone habit I impossed on myself! well yours truly a scared25yr old methadone addict from detroit NICK!
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
High,
You really want to go check the link below out! :-)) It’s free and it’s legal!
Thanx & have A Hempy Day,
Lynne Wilson, Dir.
The Happy Hemptress
HempRock Productions
513-68-4-HEMP vm/fax
www.hemprock.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Ross Hamilton [mailto:ophi@greatserpentmound.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 2:26 AM
To: happy hemptress
Subject: Tripwonker
http://www.verylowsodium.com/tripwonker.php
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder – Free web site building tool. Try it!
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re:King of Torts/det. too “cute” so drug charges dismissed.
Date: January 23, 2004 at 5:18:22 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for the heads up Callie, I’ll look out for this Grishom book.
Also, check out the snipped article below.
Peace,
Preston
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7766272.htm
Detective ruled too cute in drug bust
By Paula McMahon
KNIGHT RIDDER TRIBUNE
FORT LAUDERDALE – He’s so good looking it ought not to be a crime.
Fort Lauderdale Detective Mike Nahum’s handsome appearance lost him a
criminal case, but there is a consolation prize. He may be the only guy in
the world with a court order declaring he is a “very attractive man.”
Nahum is so cute that a Broward Circuit Court judge threw out a criminal
charge against a West Palm Beach man charged with selling drugs to Nahum
during an undercover sting at a gay nightclub in Fort Lauderdale. Judge
Susan Lebow ruled the defendant, Julio Blanco, was lured by the police
officer into committing a crime in hopes he would be rewarded with sex.
On Wednesday, an appeals court backed the trial judge’s decision and ruled
the police officer’s actions were so “outrageous” that it was entrapment.
Blanco had never been arrested before and was not under any suspicion of
criminal activity until he was talked into it by law enforcement, the Fourth
District Court of Appeal ruled.
In the frequently dry and dusty world of law, the case gave the courtroom
staff a rare opportunity to pause and appreciate the finer things in life.
Dismissing the case, Judge Lebow certified Nahum as cute.
“I make that a finding. He’s a very attractive man,” she said, according to
a transcript.
Blanco’s attorney, Kevin Kulik, spoke up to ensure the transcript would
accurately reflect Nahum’s macho, muscular appearance. “For the record, I
would submit he was about 6’ 2″. He was in good shape, you know, a fit
individual, young detective, looked to be maybe 30.”
The judge was not the only one to notice Nahum’s charms.
“Let’s just say that all of the women in court that day were paying a lot of
attention to him,” Kulik said on Wednesday. “After he left the courtroom,
they were all like, ‘Wow.'”
Diligent efforts to get a photograph of Nahum so that readers could judge
for themselves proved fruitless. Fort Lauderdale Detective Andy Pallen said
Nahum could not be photographed because he still is working undercover.
Fort Lauderdale police and Nahum declined to comment on the case. Drug
Enforcement Administration spokesman Joe Kilmer said agency lawyers would
have to review the ruling before he could comment.
—– Original Message —–
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 11:02 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] King of Torts
Hello fellow addicts!
I am reading a work of fiction by John Grisham titled King of Torts.
The storyline so far is about a miraculous new drug to treat opiate and
cocaine addicts called Tarvan. The medication seemed to work so well but
after you are on it awhile it causes you to murder without any provocation
at all!
I had to take my father to Emergency Room at midnight last night and he was
not released until 7 this morning so I had plenty of time to read!
I did not finish the book though! And even if I did I wouldn’t want to give
it all away!
Peace and hoping you all have a great weekend!
Callie
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] tripwonker
Date: January 23, 2015 at 11:23:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
High,
You really want to go check the link below out! :-)) It’s free and it’s legal!
Thanx & have A Hempy Day,
Lynne Wilson, Dir.
The Happy Hemptress
HempRock Productions
513-68-4-HEMP vm/fax
www.hemprock.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Ross Hamilton [mailto:ophi@greatserpentmound.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 2:26 AM
To: happy hemptress
Subject: Tripwonker
http://www.verylowsodium.com/tripwonker.php
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] King of Torts
Date: January 23, 2004 at 11:02:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello fellow addicts!
I am reading a work of fiction by John Grisham titled King of Torts.
The storyline so far is about a miraculous new drug to treat opiate and cocaine addicts called Tarvan. The medication seemed to work so well but after you are on it awhile it causes you to murder without any provocation at all!
I had to take my father to Emergency Room at midnight last night and he was not released until 7 this morning so I had plenty of time to read!
I did not finish the book though! And even if I did I wouldn’t want to give it all away!
Peace and hoping you all have a great weekend!
Callie
From: “Mustafa izgi” <fakeplacebo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] so sad
Date: January 23, 2004 at 3:49:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Friends,
This group saved my life; gave me new hope for keep on my life. Iboga foundation is the maybe only one thing that help addicted people all around the world; I’m gratefull to everybody who tried to help me specialy Amon and Sara.
Best Regards
Mustafa Izgi
From: lpg <cwotuget@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] removal
Date: January 23, 2004 at 2:16:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
sorry . . i’m not the proper address
if u manage to get off this list could u plz tell me how u did it
i’d love to stop receiving this ramble too
regards
lpg
on 1/23/04 12:48 AM, darkpo3t at darkpo3t@aol.com wrote:
remove me
Christina Thibeau wrote on 1/22/2004, 8:58 AM:
I don’t know if this is the proper address, but is it possible that I
can be
removed from the ibogaine mailing list.
Thank-you,
Christina
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/photos&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.
msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
From: darkpo3t <darkpo3t@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] removal
Date: January 22, 2004 at 7:48:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
remove me
Christina Thibeau wrote on 1/22/2004, 8:58 AM:
I don’t know if this is the proper address, but is it possible that I
can be
removed from the ibogaine mailing list.
Thank-you,
Christina
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/photos&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
From: “Christina Thibeau” <christinathibeau@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] removal
Date: January 22, 2004 at 11:58:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I don’t know if this is the proper address, but is it possible that I can be removed from the ibogaine mailing list.
Thank-you,
Christina
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/photos&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
From: Marko Resinovic <marko@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iboga Foundation deleted
Date: January 22, 2004 at 9:11:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I received several private questions, basically, what are my other E-mail
addresses… I’d like to answer to everybody at once ;-))
And sorry, I forgot <sigh>
So, this is THE adresse I’m using lately 😉
And another one, for those interested exclusively in IBO HCl and the
Sacrament of Transition, can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/ibopictures/price.html
Iboga Foundation is gone, but Sacrament of Transition lives on and
fortifies. VIVA RELIGIA!!
And with a bit of luck, our on-line temple will be
finished…eee….soon…?…eee….prolly next month….or perhaps next
year….or next decade…?…I dunno, sometime in the future….it’s
mainly in God’s <ooups!> hands…
Marko
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, IBOGA Foundation wrote:
Hi all,
I’d just like to notify you that I had to delete Iboga Foundation on
December 31, 2003.
After almost 10 years of work, we ran out of institutions to talk to, as
well as out of money.
Sad but true.
At the moment, legal processes to erase the Foundation are going on.
When they will be finished and someone at ARNES (provider of this E-mail
account) realises that there’s no more need (or no more legal reason) for
this account, they’ll delete it. Permanently. And nobody knows when this
will happen…
If anyone needs me, please use my other E-mail addresses. Thank you.
Marko
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iboga Foundation deleted
Date: January 21, 2004 at 9:41:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/21/04 8:10:39 PM, iboga@guest.arnes.si writes:
Hi all,
I’d just like to notify you that I had to delete Iboga Foundation on
December 31, 2003.
After almost 10 years of work, we ran out of institutions to talk to, as
well as out of money.
Sad but true.
At the moment, legal processes to erase the Foundation are going on.
When they will be finished and someone at ARNES (provider of this E-mail
account) realises that there’s no more need (or no more legal reason) for
this account, they’ll delete it. Permanently. And nobody knows when this
will happen…
If anyone needs me, please use my other E-mail addresses. Thank you.
Marko
Dear Marko,
A loss to all of us. God love you and keep you.
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] PATIENT DIGNITY PROJECT THREATENED
Date: January 21, 2004 at 9:39:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/21/04 7:10:21 PM, CallieMimosa@aol.com writes:
Hi Howard!
Sent my two letters of support as soon as I read your e-mail.
I feel us folk on Methadone are lucky to have an advocate like you!
Callie
Dear Callie,
I only wish I had the strength two work harder. The two people who are
really dedicating their lives to helping methadone patients are NAMA’s president,
Joycelyn S. Woods and NAMA’s Vice President, Walter Ginter.
Howard Lotsof
NAMA
Board of Directors
http://www.methdone.org
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Iboga Foundation deleted
Date: January 21, 2004 at 1:58:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sorry to hear that Marko, I hope this
doesn’t mean we’re going to be seeing
less of you 😉
all the best to you and yours,
Adam Gur
—– Original Message —–
From: “IBOGA Foundation” <iboga@guest.arnes.si>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 2:50 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Iboga Foundation deleted
Hi all,
I’d just like to notify you that I had to delete Iboga Foundation on
December 31, 2003.
After almost 10 years of work, we ran out of institutions to talk to, as
well as out of money.
Sad but true.
At the moment, legal processes to erase the Foundation are going on.
When they will be finished and someone at ARNES (provider of this E-mail
account) realises that there’s no more need (or no more legal reason) for
this account, they’ll delete it. Permanently. And nobody knows when this
will happen…
If anyone needs me, please use my other E-mail addresses. Thank you.
Marko
From: IBOGA Foundation <iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: [ibogaine] Iboga Foundation deleted
Date: January 21, 2004 at 7:50:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all,
I’d just like to notify you that I had to delete Iboga Foundation on
December 31, 2003.
After almost 10 years of work, we ran out of institutions to talk to, as
well as out of money.
Sad but true.
At the moment, legal processes to erase the Foundation are going on.
When they will be finished and someone at ARNES (provider of this E-mail
account) realises that there’s no more need (or no more legal reason) for
this account, they’ll delete it. Permanently. And nobody knows when this
will happen…
If anyone needs me, please use my other E-mail addresses. Thank you.
Marko
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] PATIENT DIGNITY PROJECT THREATENED
Date: January 21, 2004 at 11:23:44 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Howard!
Sent my two letters of support as soon as I read your e-mail.
I feel us folk on Methadone are lucky to have an advocate like you!
Callie
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] PATIENT DIGNITY PROJECT THREATENED
Date: January 21, 2004 at 6:31:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
National Alliance of Methadone Advocates (NAMA)
For Immediate Release
Date: January 12, 2004
Contact: Joycelyn Woods and Walter Ginter
Phone: (212) 595-6262
PATIENT DIGNITY PROJECT THREATENED
NAMA has been involved in a Methadone Emergency Database Project which will
create a way to verify a patient’s dose in the case of an emergency. Now we
hear that the Methadone Emergency Database Project, which we have been referring
to as the “Patients Dignity Project”, is not going to be funded. Apparently,
patient dignity, specifically, methadone patient dignity doesn’t have the
support necessary.
Why This Is Project Called The Patient Dignity Project?
The reason we call it the patient dignity project is that it will allow
patients to go to any program and eventually any hospital and get their medicine
immediately in the event of an emergency. Currently, in an emergency, patients
have to wait hours to have their doses verified. When that is not possible, and
most times it is not, patients are given a few milligrams at a time by
worried physicians. Patients are left begging for hours for more medication.
But MORE OFTEN THEY AREN’T MEDICATED AT ALL forcing many patients back to the
streets from which they are escaping. That is why advocates call this the
PATIENT DIGNITY PROJECT.
After September 11 many of us at NAMA became concerned about what would
happen to methadone patients in the event of similar crisis. A number of groups,
including NAMA formed a stakeholder committee to look into possible solutions
for this problem and to insure that patients would never be turned away from
programs again.
The Methadone Emergency Database Project
Patients need a way to get their medication in times of an emergency. The
project, funded by the Center for Substance Abuse Treatment (CSAT) has just
completed its report and is ready to advance to a demonstration project in the New
York, New Jersey, and Connecticut area. The report calls for the establishment
of an emergency database that could be accessed only in the presence of the
patient requesting his or her medication at a place other then the patients
home program. The project calls for the use of a finger imaging system that
besides being inexpensive and easy to maintain fully protects the rights, privacy
and dignity of the patients.
NAMA has visited programs in the states involved. The patients interviewed
were 100% in favor of the project.
What Happens Without The Methadone Emergency Database Project
In the past 2 years there have been at least 3 major emergencies, where
despite the “emergencies plans” called for in the Accreditation Guidelines
patients were left for between 1 and 3 days without medication. The Presidents Day
Storm where at least 9 programs failed to open in the Mid Atlantic states, the
east coast blackout, and the recent northeaster where hundreds of patients in
Boston were left without medication despite repeated warnings about severe
weather.
NAMA is aware that many patients were forced to resort to heroin during those
emergencies. There is no way to tell the ultimate impact that this had on
patients being forced into using again. Whatever the effects they can’t be good.
If an emergency database were available those patients could have gone to any
program, and eventually any emergency room, to get their medicine.
What Should Happen Next?
The next stage is just a demonstration project and admittedly it will be
several years before all the kinks are ironed out and it is ready to go national.
But this is the start of a strategy to insure that ALL patients are able to
get their medication no matter the crisis. By not being funded the project will
be delayed further and we can’t wait another thirty-five years.
NAMA believes that this project is important and should take precedence over
other projects. We encourage all advocates, methadone patients, friends and
family of methadone patients and all concerned individuals to contact Mr. Curie
of the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) and
Dr. Clark of the Center for Substance Abuse Treatment (CSAT) and tell them
that you care about the dignity of methadone patients and encourage them to fund
the Methadone Emergency Database Project.
The email links for the esteemed gentlemen mentioned are listed below:
wclark@samhsa.gov ccurie@samhsa.gov
Please e-mail them today and tell them you support the Methadone Emergency
Database Project. Ask your friends and family to do the same.
From: <crownofthorns@hushmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Thoughts on the coming ‘discovery’ of Bin Laden: the best propaganda a campaign can buy
Date: January 19, 2004 at 5:51:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thought this was interesting enough to forward 🙂
Peace out,
Curtis
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:59:15 -0800 Eric Smith <snowdog@juno.ocn.ne.jp>
wrote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact:
Eric A. Smith
Hot Damn! Design
81-03-3959-5371
snowdog@juno.ocn.ne.jp
OPINION: THOUGHTS ON THE COMING “DISCOVERY” OF BIN LADEN
–The Best Propaganda Money can Buy
Unless preparations are made for its eventuality, the announcement
of Bin Laden’s capture will be the death-knell for the 2004 Democratic
campaign. And, like the “heroic rescue” of Jessica Lynch or the toppling
of Hussein’s statue by “jubilant throngs” of Iraqis, it needn’t even
be real:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/3028585.stm
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-scheer20may20,
1,2187120.column
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1762/3907255.html
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2838.htm
So Democrats must have a pre-emptive strategy in place; the most
obvious being, early in the game, to accuse the White House of sitting
on Bin Laden for political gain.
A better one is to launch an independent investigation to find Bin
Laden first and announce the discovery before Rove’s political operatives;
this would be a huge coup.
In case you haven’t been paying attention, this election year, Republicans
are playing a deadly game of attrition — death by a thousand tiny
cuts, so to speak: extreme gerrymandering in Texas, the recall of
a governor in California, the installation of inauditable, easily
“preprogrammed” DRE e-vote machines in as many counties as will allow
them to be stuffed down their throats, relentless and bloody character
assassinations in a bought-and-paid-for Murdoch-dominated media empire,
absentee ballots counted by an untouchable firm in Kuwait, stacked
courts ready to deliver decisions for which 2000’s Gore vs. Bush
set the precedent.
The odds look dire for Democrats (and, by extension, the majority
of Americans, though they are as yet blissfully unaware of the slender
thread from which all our liberties hang).
But, in case you haven’t connected the dots, this time the GOP is
playing for keeps.
Once the fix is in, there will be no turning back: by an invisible,
carefully planned coup, the neoconservatives will have transformed
America into an autocracy, and any remaining political opposition
will be window dressing.
And so, I challenge you: this is a battle we perhaps cannot win,
but, at all costs, MUST NOT LOSE.
The consequences of surrender will be incalculable: one by one,
like dominos, institutions we cherish will fall — environmental
laws, social security, independent media, healthy advocacy groups,
assistance for the unemployed, impoverished and disenfranchised
— and, foremost, the right to choose our leaders.
We will be left with one remaining liberty: the right to choose
which products to buy to keep the militaristic money machine well-
oiled, and its minders well-heeled.
This year, unless YOU act — BOLDLY, DECISIVELY, PERSISTENTLY AND
INCESSANTLY — the dream our forefathers nurtured to life will die.
Don’t let the dream die.
Stand up and fight for America.
Stand up and fight for the vote.
This will be your last chance.
sincerely,
Eric A. Smith
Tokyo
About the author:
Eric A. Smith is a freelance journalist, editor and IT instructor
living in Tokyo, Japan. An activist for over 25 years, he has worked
with such diverse publications as the RTP Beacon, Common Ground and
Adbusters magazine.
Smith is currently volunteering to assist Bev Harris of Blackboxvoting.org,
Attorney Philip Berg in 9-11 widow Ellen Mariani’s RICO suit against
Bush, et al, and is a charter member of the Open Voting Consortium.
Smith earned his BA at the University of North Carolina in 1992,
and holds MCP, field service technician, A+ and Network+ certifications
from Microsoft, COMPTIA and the Control Data Institute.
He can be reached for comment at 81-03-3959-5371 or snowdog@juno.ocn.ne.jp
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 18, 2004 at 12:29:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks Howard for your response to Carlas question.
I too, had the same questions she had but was unable to ask in the eloquent way she did.
In fact, I was having a hard time believing many of the things being said about Ibogaine because I thought folks were ‘stretching’ their truth quite a bit.
Guess I need to be less judgmental and more open minded! I am cautious to be that way because I feel it got me to where I am today! lol!
Peace to all! Callie
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 18, 2004 at 9:40:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/18/04 6:35:43 AM, carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:
To ask a question that I wonder about sometimes with
what some of you are doing in particular with
methadone. I read a few times that patrick was on 200
and then doing xanax and 2 or 3 grams of heroin over
that every day and I thought that was insane, you said
you were on 180, marc posted how he is detoxing
someone from methadone who was on 400? (sorry if I got
the exact number wrong marc I am not reading my
ibogaine folder i’m only remembering it). Then this
person is on 610mg of methadone?????
In some ways maybe I am naive and its reaching the
stage where it would not shock me for someone to speak
up in the future and say they are on 1200mg or 2000mg
of methadone and I guess if you keep raising your
tolerence it is possible but my question is why do any
of you do this??? Do any of you even feel heroin when
you are on 180 or 200, I know you can’t feel it when
you’re on 610 or am I wrong?
Why do you keep going up until you are at such a huge
dose? Do you keep using at the lower doses or not feel
good and then somewhere at some humongous dose level
it gets better for you? Does anyone really need 610mg
of methadone to feel normal or even 400, 200. I was on
80 and that was a lot. Is there really a difference
for you between 400mg and 610?
Why keep going up and up when you know that after a
while you’re not even going to feel it anymore and
then you will be on that dose of methadone. I think
most states wont even go over 100mg in most cases,
where is it that all of you are doing methadone
maintennce that they keep letting you escalate?
Please understand im not in any way judging anyone i’m
only wanting to understand why any of you did this to
yourselves. I know how addiction works but I still
have a hard time understanding numbers like 200mg,
400mg, 600mg. I really do keep waiting for someone to
show up and say ‘i’m on 2000mg of methadone, will
ibogaine work for me?’ will it work for them?
Hi Carla,
Well, there are people on 1000mg of methadone and if my memory serves me
there are a few people receiving 2000mg/day or close to it. The doses are
determined by the comfort of the patient. There are very few methadone providers
who will dose patients at these doses but, 200 – 300mgs doses are becoming more
common. When methadone maintenance was first started by Dole and Nyswander it
was not uncommon to see 200mg+ doses and then when the program expanded in
the 1970s the doses initially were in the 100mg range for most patients. As
time went on various states and doctors not experienced with methadone limited
the amount of methadone one could receive or that they would give and you saw
low doses in the 40mg range that were not sufficient for blockade to stop heroin
craving. In 2003, a set of new federal regulations were introduced that
transferred control of methadone regulation from the FDA to the Substance Abuse
and Mental Health Services Administration. These regulations removed dose caps
and indicated better results were seen in the 80-120mg range of methadone.
The new regulations were adapted in an attempt to bring methadone maintenance
into mainstream medicine. The regulations were less onerous concerning
treatment of patients than the previous regulations and required accreditation of
methadone clinics by the same agencies that accredit hospitals and other health
care facilities. The federal guidelines set minimal standards for patients
rights and treatment. States may provide stricter guidelines in some areas and
individual clinics stricter guidelines than the states. Some area where this is
seen is in the number of urine tests required (the federal guidelines require
only 8 per year) and how many takehome doses a patient may have (the new
federal guidelines allow up to 30).
As with all drugs, individual pharmacological dynamics play an important part
and experienced methadone doctors believe that the correct dose for any given
patient is one where the patient feels comfortable and heroin and or other
opioid craving has ceased. For some patients, this dose may be over 1000mg/day
of methadone though the vast majority of patients are receiving doses of
between 60mg and 120mg/day.
For information on methadone:
http://www.methadone.org/library/m101.html#history (contains a linked
bibliography)
http://www.atforum.com/ (an excellent source of methadone information with a
site search engine)
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2001_register&docid=
01-723-filed (a bit difficult to read but and interesting discussion of and
the new federal regulations).
Ibogaine information:
http://www.ibogaine.org/whatsnew.html
Howard Lotsof
Board of Directors
National Alliance of Methadone Advocates
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemadeextract
Date: January 18, 2004 at 1:35:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick your coming from one month in the future, fix
your time machine 😉
Carla B
— Nick Sandberg <nicks22@onetel.com> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine]
rootbark & homemadeextract
On 8/01/04 9:54, “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
wrote:
Nick, In other words I would say ,A good
Ceremony is like a good wine in
a good company and a “hotel room” setting is
like a cheap one all alone,
you may get drunk from both though.
S.
I can’t agree with this for I have seen how the
intentions and vibes
works,
It isn’t only the Iboga or the place or the
Shaman but the whole.
If you understand what is placebo you
understand that there is more
then
a milieu of self-aggrandisement, which is
trust, being a shamen is
self-fulfilment in service of the life. It
isn’t self-interest that
makes a human become a shamen.
For sure, I agree with you. And, furthermore, a
lot of the work done in
shamanism and also therapy requires a strong
ego. You aren’t going to be
able to lead people into their own fear if you
come on to them like a
dithering, uncertain idiot. A bit of bravado
definitely has its uses.
And,
in both Western and African settings, a bit of
showmanship doesn’t go
amiss
either. BUT, it’s also, imo, worth being aware
that the risk of all this
ego-strengthening is that you, as a shaman,
therapist, or individual,
ultimately MISS the bigger picture. Developing
psychic or shamanic
powers
has the associated risk of the individual
(so-called) becoming highly
identified with his or her role as shaman, and
using it to cover over
all
the places of vulnerability where their own
actual liberation is to be
found.
Ultimately, there’s no difference between
liberating yourself or
liberating
others. But someone locked into a shaman trip is
unlikely to understand
the
immense and liberating truth in this statement
Nick
It is only self-interest when it is done for
self liberating or for
Data’s. Iboga will not liberate anyone who is
not willing to be
liberated. That isn’t a magic bullet; it will
show a data that hard to
make sense because it acts differently on each
person.
No one is to say where and when it should be
eaten but where and when
are important for those who feel vibes and
intentions around them like
kids do.
It’s everyone agenda,and it is how a person
feels about doing the
right
thing.
Greetings,
S
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nicks22@onetel.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 januari 2004 20:30
Aan: Ibogaine Mindvox
Onderwerp: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re:
[ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
I have to say I think your post was a bit
strong, really, Laurent.
Shamen
the world over have for millenia battled (some
not so hard!) with the
tendency to create a “cult of the individual”
from their work. And,
frankly,
posts like yours only reinforces this tendency.
The notion of the
“great
healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with
only limited real use
in
the
work itself. What starts out as a healing gift
can easily soon become
simply
a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has
exclusive rights over
iboga,
neither corporations nor ethnic or religious
groups. I’m sure there a
plenty
of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and
Missoko tribespeople
are
inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s
to say how and where
iboga
should be eaten.
The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has
thus direct connection
with
the formative, primal state of existence from
which our own conscious
experience of reality descends. Meaning,
roughly, that it can manifest
pretty much according to its own agenda when,
where, and unto whom it
wants.
In addition to this, the hardship of African
initiations might be
considered
necessary for humans from certain cultural and
racial backgrounds, but
I
can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not
necessary to use it in
ritual
context. It’s beyond all that
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine]
rootbark & homemade
extract
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where
I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas,
not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I
throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans
and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all
shamans, we’re all
bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s
revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy;
one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was
saying, I think fresh root
is
best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really
wish I could stomach
it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk
away?
From your email I realize you are a decent
person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say,
‘they’ve been doing this
for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have
customs and beliefs and
purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing
though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss
it, there’s more coming
at
you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some
funky dancing for
us…
that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not
saying they are trying
to
pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of
humanity and I’m
sorry
but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to
impart but I’m not
following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for
permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own
ancestor. You can
take
iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can
hop on your cosmic
harley
and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few
angel feathers while
you’re
at
it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is
‘self-actualization’ and
you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting
this liberation from, or
thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great
sense of humor too. You
just
got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you
know gabonese eat
iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from
centuries and they have
the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are
you a shaman to eat
yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you
don’t go to Gabon and
eat
iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and
extraordinary and shamans
will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will
discredit iboga in the
future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a
game. Iboga is a drug(
the
best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If
taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my
friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade
extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
Yes Sarah I do agree with you
There is quiet difference to do experience of wine
for example where it
grows or where people will give you the knowledge
about wine (tanin,arom,
year, how it grows, etc why 1987 is better than
1985).
There is quiet difference if you take coca leaf in
Peru and taking cocaine
in city.
It’s the same for iboga&bwiti.
Shamanism is not an easy, soft, and funny
experience.
Do you think that to be a pilote of spaceship you
doesn’t need a hard work
during years?
If iboga taste is nasty it is like that. You must
go throught. Do yoy
think
with should put some sugar in it?
Just women put some palm wine with iboga in Gabon.
You can try direct in the ass( I’m not joking,
people tried), it goes
directly from ass to your brain.You have an direct
access to vision.It
goes
directly trought the vertebral colonn. I didn’t
try.
laurent
Hi Laurent,
You’re a beautiful guy and all I’m gonna add here is
that at some point
you’re still going to have to deal with the question
of WHO IT ACTUALLY IS
that is doing all this “going through it” stuff. And
that it is through
looking at this question that the real business of
the treatment will become
apparent.
All these ideas about setting and conditions are
fine, fine, fine, but if
you’re left believing that an experience has to be
like so, or like so, or
like this so instead, you are actually MISSING your
own healing through this
belief. Healing requires nothing else than that you
are PRESENT. Healing =
Presence, that’s it. When you are present with a
situation, when you are
there in the moment, you are healed. There is
absolutely NOTHING else that
needs to happen. NOW……see how your mind reacts
to this statement, if it
does, and you have all the guide posts you need.
love
Nick
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 18, 2004 at 1:34:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To ask a question that I wonder about sometimes with
what some of you are doing in particular with
methadone. I read a few times that patrick was on 200
and then doing xanax and 2 or 3 grams of heroin over
that every day and I thought that was insane, you said
you were on 180, marc posted how he is detoxing
someone from methadone who was on 400? (sorry if I got
the exact number wrong marc I am not reading my
ibogaine folder i’m only remembering it). Then this
person is on 610mg of methadone?????
In some ways maybe I am naive and its reaching the
stage where it would not shock me for someone to speak
up in the future and say they are on 1200mg or 2000mg
of methadone and I guess if you keep raising your
tolerence it is possible but my question is why do any
of you do this??? Do any of you even feel heroin when
you are on 180 or 200, I know you can’t feel it when
you’re on 610 or am I wrong?
Why do you keep going up until you are at such a huge
dose? Do you keep using at the lower doses or not feel
good and then somewhere at some humongous dose level
it gets better for you? Does anyone really need 610mg
of methadone to feel normal or even 400, 200. I was on
80 and that was a lot. Is there really a difference
for you between 400mg and 610?
Why keep going up and up when you know that after a
while you’re not even going to feel it anymore and
then you will be on that dose of methadone. I think
most states wont even go over 100mg in most cases,
where is it that all of you are doing methadone
maintennce that they keep letting you escalate?
Please understand im not in any way judging anyone i’m
only wanting to understand why any of you did this to
yourselves. I know how addiction works but I still
have a hard time understanding numbers like 200mg,
400mg, 600mg. I really do keep waiting for someone to
show up and say ‘i’m on 2000mg of methadone, will
ibogaine work for me?’ will it work for them?
no matter what I always find a lot of hope here. Jolly
ho and further is right 🙂
Carla B
— Schmoolyboy@aol.com wrote:
I guess you are at Shindermans clinic in Chicago. I
have used Ibo to detox a
femal with brittle diabetis . She was on 475 mgs
meth for 5 years and did
well. Of course , the protocol was tweeked to meet
her specific needs and she was
very motivatred and did a lot of work for her
recovery post Ibo. She is clean
one year later.
Yes it can be done , but please find caring people
who have experience with
high dose chronic opiod patients. G-D bless you and
good luck. I’m sure Howard
can put you in the right direction to find good
people to accomplishn this
goal with you. Not easy but yes… doable. Keep the
faith . I was on 180 meth for
10 years and detoxed to zero over 8 months ans it
was hard but 9 years later
I am clean and feel well . It initially took me
another 4 months to get
through it and it was hard . But if you really want
it and have a good support
network .. It can be done. Jolly ho and further
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Peter Staley
Date: January 17, 2004 at 3:55:35 PM EST
To: Kenneth Alper <kra1@nyu.edu>
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please send chapters 1, 2 & 8 in PDF to editors@aidsmeds.com . Also,
anyone on the list with human data on efficacy, can email it to
Staley at this address. He is open to advocating research, he wants
to see more before he advocates ibo.
Dana/cnw
From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemadeextract
Date: January 15, 2004 at 12:06:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > On 8/01/04 9:54, “Sara Glatt” wrote:
> > > Nick, In other words I would say ,A good Ceremony is like a good wine in
> > > a good company and a “hotel room” setting is like a cheap one all alone,
> > > you may get drunk from both though.
> > >
> > > S.
> > >
> > >> I can’t agree with this for I have seen how the intentions and vibes
> > >> works,
> > >> It isn’t only the Iboga or the place or the Shaman but the whole.
> > >> If you understand what is placebo you understand that there is more
> > > then
> > >> a milieu of self-aggrandisement, which is trust, being a shamen is
> > >> self-fulfilment in service of the life. It isn’t self-interest that
> > >> makes a human become a shamen.
> > >
> > > For sure, I agree with you. And, furthermore, a lot of the work done in
> > > shamanism and also therapy requires a strong ego. You aren’t going to be
> > > able to lead people into their own fear if you come on to them like a
> > > dithering, uncertain idiot. A bit of bravado definitely has its uses.
> > > And,
> > > in both Western and African settings, a bit of showmanship doesn’t go
> > > amiss
> > > either. BUT, it’s also, imo, worth being aware that the risk of all this
> > > ego-strengthening is that you, as a shaman, therapist, or individual,
> > > ultimately MISS the bigger picture. Developing psychic or shamanic
> > > powers
> > > has the associated risk of the individual (so-called) becoming highly
> > > identified with his or her role as shaman, and using it to cover over
> > > all
> > > the places of vulnerability where their own actual liberation is to be
> > > found.
> > >
> > > Ultimately, there’s no difference between liberating yourself or
> > > liberating
> > > others. But someone locked into a shaman trip is unlikely to understand
> > > the
> > > immense and liberating truth in this statement
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > >> It is only self-interest when it is done for self liberating or for
> > >> Data’s. Iboga will not liberate anyone who is not willing to be
> > >> liberated. That isn’t a magic bullet; it will show a data that hard to
> > >> make sense because it acts differently on each person.
> > >> No one is to say where and when it should be eaten but where and when
> > >> are important for those who feel vibes and intentions around them like
> > >> kids do.
> > >> It’s everyone agenda,and it is how a person feels about doing the
> > > right
> > >> thing.
> > >>
> > >> Greetings,
> > >>
> > >> S
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> —–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
> > >> Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nicks22@onetel.com]
> > >> Verzonden: dinsdag 6 januari 2004 20:30
> > >> Aan: Ibogaine Mindvox
> > >> Onderwerp: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
> > >> extract
> > >>
> > >> I have to say I think your post was a bit strong, really, Laurent.
> > >> Shamen
> > >> the world over have for millenia battled (some not so hard!) with the
> > >> tendency to create a “cult of the individual” from their work. And,
> > >> frankly,
> > >> posts like yours only reinforces this tendency. The notion of the
> > > “great
> > >> healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with only limited real use
> > > in
> > >> the
> > >> work itself. What starts out as a healing gift can easily soon become
> > >> simply
> > >> a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has exclusive rights over
> > > iboga,
> > >> neither corporations nor ethnic or religious groups. I’m sure there a
> > >> plenty
> > >> of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and Missoko tribespeople
> > > are
> > >> inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s to say how and where
> > >> iboga
> > >> should be eaten.
> > >>
> > >> The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has thus direct connection
> > >> with
> > >> the formative, primal state of existence from which our own conscious
> > >> experience of reality descends. Meaning, roughly, that it can manifest
> > >> pretty much according to its own agenda when, where, and unto whom it
> > >> wants.
> > >> In addition to this, the hardship of African initiations might be
> > >> considered
> > >> necessary for humans from certain cultural and racial backgrounds, but
> > > I
> > >> can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
> > >>
> > >> Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not necessary to use it in
> > >> ritual
> > >> context. It’s beyond all that
> > >>
> > >> Nick
> > >>
> > >> —– Original Message —–
> > >> From: “adam gur”
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
> > >> Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
> > > extract
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Salut Laurent,
> > >>>
> > >>> First of all, I love your photos man…
> > >>>
> > >>> I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
> > >>> been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
> > >>>
> > >>> And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
> > >>> from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
> > >>>
> > >>> We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all
> > >> bullshit
> > >>> artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
> > >>>
> > >>> And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
> > >>>
> > >>> It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
> > >>> this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root
> > > is
> > >> best,
> > >>> better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach
> > > it.
> > >>> But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
> > >>>
> > >>> From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
> > >>> But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this
> > > for
> > >>> centuries
> > >>> and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and
> > >> purposes
> > >>> that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
> > >>>
> > >>> Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming
> > >> at
> > >> you.
> > >>> Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for
> > > us…
> > >> that’s
> > >>> where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying
> > > to
> > >>> the
> > >>> knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m
> > > sorry
> > >> but
> > >>> I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not
> > >> following
> > >>> anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
> > >>> directions; I
> > >>> don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can
> > > take
> > >> iboga
> > >>> with
> > >>> all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic
> > > harley
> > >> and
> > >>> rip a tear
> > >>> thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while
> > > you’re
> > >> at
> > >> it.
> > >>>
> > >>> That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and
> > >> you
> > >>> can’t accomplish
> > >>> that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or
> > >> thru,
> > >>> others.
> > >>>
> > >>> Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You
> > > just
> > >> got
> > >>> to have
> > >>> your wits about you.
> > >>>
> > >>> peace,
> > >>> Adam
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> —– Original Message —–
> > >>> From: “laurent sazy”
> > >>> To:
> > >>> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> My Friend,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat
> > >> iboga
> > >>> roots(
> > >>>> fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have
> > >> the
> > >>>> knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat
> > >> yourself
> > >>>> iboga?
> > >>>> Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and
> > > eat
> > >> iboga
> > >>>> in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans
> > >> will
> > >>>> teach you a lot.
> > >>>> Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the
> > >> future
> > >>>> and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug(
> > > the
> > >> best
> > >>>> drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
> > >>>> necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Laurent / kombo KA
> > Yes Sarah I do agree with you
> There is quiet difference to do experience of wine for example where it
> > grows or where people will give you the knowledge about wine (tanin,arom,
> > year, how it grows, etc why 1987 is better than 1985).
> > There is quiet difference if you take coca leaf in Peru and taking cocaine
> > in city.
> > It’s the same for iboga&bwiti.
> > Shamanism is not an easy, soft, and funny experience.
> > Do you think that to be a pilote of spaceship you doesn’t need a hard work
> > during years?
> >
> > If iboga taste is nasty it is like that. You must go throught. Do yoy
>think
> > with should put some sugar in it?
> > Just women put some palm wine with iboga in Gabon.
> >
> > You can try direct in the ass( I’m not joking, people tried), it goes
> > directly from ass to your brain.You have an direct access to vision.It
>goes
> > directly trought the vertebral colonn. I didn’t try.
> >
> > laurent
>
>
>Hi Laurent,
>
>You’re a beautiful guy and all I’m gonna add here is that at some point
>you’re still going to have to deal with the question of WHO IT ACTUALLY IS
>that is doing all this “going through it” stuff. And that it is through
>looking at this question that the real business of the treatment will become
>apparent.
>
>All these ideas about setting and conditions are fine, fine, fine, but if
>you’re left believing that an experience has to be like so, or like so, or
>like this so instead, you are actually MISSING your own healing through this
>belief. Healing requires nothing else than that you are PRESENT. Healing =
>Presence, that’s it. When you are present with a situation, when you are
>there in the moment, you are healed. There is absolutely NOTHING else that
>needs to happen. NOW……see how your mind reacts to this statement, if it
>does, and you have all the guide posts you need.
>
>love
>
>Nick
>
>
>
I have to throw in my two cents to this discussion since it’s been nagging at me for a bit. I just can’t fathom why humans are so incredibly hung up on “it’s my way or it’s the wrong way.” I think getting drunk on cheap wine all alone in a motel room could sound very appealing (I enjoy solitude alot!)
If a person ever takes a glance at nature, one of it’s most obvious incredible “blow me away” characteristics is that it’s incredibly diverse. Who would say that a bat is less beautiful or necessary than a dog or even an ant. It seems like whatever designed all of this thought everything was cool… Just follow your own path and quit worrying about what the other is doing. All this insistence on us “knowing what’s best” for everyone else just fuels wars and killing and hatred. Boy I wish we could give it a rest.
Sandy Watson
Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software optimizes dial-up to the max!
From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 14, 2004 at 9:49:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I guess you are at Shindermans clinic in Chicago. I have used Ibo to detox a femal with brittle diabetis . She was on 475 mgs meth for 5 years and did well. Of course , the protocol was tweeked to meet her specific needs and she was very motivatred and did a lot of work for her recovery post Ibo. She is clean one year later.
Yes it can be done , but please find caring people who have experience with high dose chronic opiod patients. G-D bless you and good luck. I’m sure Howard can put you in the right direction to find good people to accomplishn this goal with you. Not easy but yes… doable. Keep the faith . I was on 180 meth for 10 years and detoxed to zero over 8 months ans it was hard but 9 years later I am clean and feel well . It initially took me another 4 months to get through it and it was hard . But if you really want it and have a good support network .. It can be done. Jolly ho and further
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Psychedlic Reviews
Date: January 14, 2004 at 5:06:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
MAPS has archived the original Psychedelic Reviews (1974- 1971)
http://www.maps.org/psychedelicreview/
Howard
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: Three fine French papers on methadone/buprenorphine (community, pregnancy, HIV).
Date: January 14, 2004 at 4:17:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It’s not really about ibogaine, but it is about treatment modalities.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: “Andrew Byrne” <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au>
To: “Andrew Byrne” <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 10:41 PM
Subject: Three fine French papers on methadone/buprenorphine (community,
pregnancy, HIV).
Illicit drug use and injection practices among drug users on methadone
and buprenorphine maintenance treatment in France. Guichard A, Lert F,
Calderon C, Gaigi H, Maguet O, Soletti J, Brodeur J-M, Richard L,
Zunzunegui M-V. Addiction (2003) 98: 1585-1597
The November Addiction starts with a rather gauche exercise by Griffith
Edwards et al. in which a hand-picked group of sub-editors, chosen for
‘their insight into Addiction’s ways of working’, are asked their
suggestions for future directions in publication. It will come as no
surprise to the reader that it is to be more of the same. While these
distinguished folk come up with numerous worthy suggestions, the
‘uncomfortable’ issues are not raised to any level of prominence. These
include the standard of opioid treatments; heroin prescription trials;
controlled drinking; injecting centres; views direct from ‘consumers’;
urine testing protocols; rapid opioid detoxification; naltrexone
implants; medicinal uses of cannabis; the effects of criminal sanctions
on the use of drugs, aka ‘drug law reform’; harm reduction philosophy
and practice.
The authors congratulate themselves in advance by writing “the exercise
has fulfilled its intentions”. They then concede that at some time in
the future such an exercise may be repeated ‘with a wider sample’ and
from ‘a younger generation’. We can only hope.
In spite of its current management, Addiction still attracts leading
researchers, publishing key items of interest. An important item in this
journal comes from France where in a three-city study, 340 addicts in
maintenance treatment for at least 6 months were interviewed regarding
illicit drug use, treatment characteristics and demographics. There were
200 on methadone while 140 were prescribed buprenorphine. About half the
methadone patients and 80% of buprenorphine patients were treated in
general practice, the remainder in specialist dependency treatment units.
The authors write that in France methadone can only be started in formal
dependency treatment units. After stabilization, patients may attend
pharmacies and receive up to a week’s supply of methadone on a GP
prescription. In contrast, buprenorphine tablets (‘pure’, sub-lingual)
can be prescribed for up to 28 days by any physician. Thus the latter
has had a rather broader uptake even though both were introduced around
the same time in France. This is especially so in regions without
specialist units. The authors state that buprenorphine was generally
considered the ‘first line’ drug in France.
This study found that methadone patients had been using drugs for longer
and had been in treatment slightly longer than the buprenorphine
recipients.
Mean daily dose for methadone was 67mg (SD 30) and for buprenorphine
10mg (SD 9).
The important finding of this study was a low rate of illicit drug use
of around 35% of subjects (18% heroin, 25% cocaine, 7% crack). There was
little significant difference between patients being cared for in
specialist clinics or by GPs. It was noteworthy that 40% of the
buprenorphine patients had injected their own substitution drug (ever)
while only 15% of the methadone patients had done so. In addition, the
higher dose buprenorphine cases were more likely to have injected, a
trend which was not seen with the methadone patients.
About 80% of methadone patients received a prescription for two weeks or
less. Two thirds of buprenorphine prescriptions were for 3 weeks or more.
About half of the subjects had a jail history. About 90% of patients had
been tested for HCV and HIV. Around 50% were HCV positive while 22% HIV
positive. These figures may relate to the late introduction of harm
reduction measures in France compared with experience elsewhere (eg.
Australia and Hong Kong). It is partly as a result of increasing HIV and
overdoses that France took the bold step of making buprenorphine so
widely available.
My ‘theory’ on the buprenorphine injecting is that a proportion of
patients who do not do well initially on buprenorphine doses may
increase their dose, still without suppressing cravings. Such unstable
and unhappy patients may tend to inject their buprenorphine, thus
defeating one of the main purposes of the treatment. Whether relapse to
heroin use or buprenorphine injecting, such behaviour should indicate a
consideration of transfer to methadone or another agonist drug such as
long acting morphine if available.
With arbitrary regulations in some jurisdictions these options are not
always available in the same treatment settings. This would be unlikely
to occur in other fields, rather like banning some doctors or
pharmacists from using certain antibiotics. The principles governing
methadone treatment should be parallel to those for buprenorphine with
emphasis on real risks and benefits, not implied or theoretical ones.
Historical regulatory anomalies should be removed in the interests of
all involved since agonist treatments are evidence based, cost-effective
and can be simply delivered using existing resources and facilities.
Fortunately, all Australian jurisdictions now permit (limited) take-away
provisions for buprenorphine, including New South Wales (up to two per
week as well as for emergencies and travel in suitably approved
patients). South Australia allows up to 5 dispensed doses per week in
stable patients who have been in treatment for over 18 months. Such
dosing encourages retention and is recommended by the new Australian
treatment guidelines. Intriguingly, both France and the US allow
unlimited unsupervised doses even though these have not been researched
to any degree. Such are the anomalies of our field.
This Addiction edition also has some largely reassuring information on
buprenorphine in pregnancy with 13 cases reported from France. The
authors state that no teratogenic effects have been reported, and that
their cases had variable neonatal abstinence syndrome but of shorter
duration than with methadone. Two cases (15%) had some motor
abnormalities which did not resolve completely at follow-up.
[Kayemba-Kay’s S et al.]
Another important recent comparative description is: Carrieri M-P, Reya
D, Loundoua A, Lepeuc G, Sobeld A, Obadia Y .Evaluation of buprenorphine
maintenance treatment in a French cohort of HIV-infected injecting drug
users. Drug Alc Depend (2003) 72; 1:13-21
comments by Andrew Byrne ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Dependency Medicine,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016, Australia
Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524 Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My grandfather Harry Gracie’s letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm
Opera reviews (Met & Syd): send email request to receive.
author of: “Addict in the Family” and
“Methadone in the Treatment of Narcotic Addiction”
http://www.csdp.org/addict/
http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/byrne_contents_methadone2.cfm
Photo (ugly):
http://www.opiateaddictionrx.info/aboutus/aboutus06.html#
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemadeextract
Date: February 13, 2004 at 9:11:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemadeextract
On 8/01/04 9:54, “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Nick, In other words I would say ,A good Ceremony is like a good wine in
a good company and a “hotel room” setting is like a cheap one all alone,
you may get drunk from both though.
S.
I can’t agree with this for I have seen how the intentions and vibes
works,
It isn’t only the Iboga or the place or the Shaman but the whole.
If you understand what is placebo you understand that there is more
then
a milieu of self-aggrandisement, which is trust, being a shamen is
self-fulfilment in service of the life. It isn’t self-interest that
makes a human become a shamen.
For sure, I agree with you. And, furthermore, a lot of the work done in
shamanism and also therapy requires a strong ego. You aren’t going to be
able to lead people into their own fear if you come on to them like a
dithering, uncertain idiot. A bit of bravado definitely has its uses.
And,
in both Western and African settings, a bit of showmanship doesn’t go
amiss
either. BUT, it’s also, imo, worth being aware that the risk of all this
ego-strengthening is that you, as a shaman, therapist, or individual,
ultimately MISS the bigger picture. Developing psychic or shamanic
powers
has the associated risk of the individual (so-called) becoming highly
identified with his or her role as shaman, and using it to cover over
all
the places of vulnerability where their own actual liberation is to be
found.
Ultimately, there’s no difference between liberating yourself or
liberating
others. But someone locked into a shaman trip is unlikely to understand
the
immense and liberating truth in this statement
Nick
It is only self-interest when it is done for self liberating or for
Data’s. Iboga will not liberate anyone who is not willing to be
liberated. That isn’t a magic bullet; it will show a data that hard to
make sense because it acts differently on each person.
No one is to say where and when it should be eaten but where and when
are important for those who feel vibes and intentions around them like
kids do.
It’s everyone agenda,and it is how a person feels about doing the
right
thing.
Greetings,
S
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nicks22@onetel.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 januari 2004 20:30
Aan: Ibogaine Mindvox
Onderwerp: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
I have to say I think your post was a bit strong, really, Laurent.
Shamen
the world over have for millenia battled (some not so hard!) with the
tendency to create a “cult of the individual” from their work. And,
frankly,
posts like yours only reinforces this tendency. The notion of the
“great
healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with only limited real use
in
the
work itself. What starts out as a healing gift can easily soon become
simply
a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has exclusive rights over
iboga,
neither corporations nor ethnic or religious groups. I’m sure there a
plenty
of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and Missoko tribespeople
are
inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s to say how and where
iboga
should be eaten.
The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has thus direct connection
with
the formative, primal state of existence from which our own conscious
experience of reality descends. Meaning, roughly, that it can manifest
pretty much according to its own agenda when, where, and unto whom it
wants.
In addition to this, the hardship of African initiations might be
considered
necessary for humans from certain cultural and racial backgrounds, but
I
can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not necessary to use it in
ritual
context. It’s beyond all that
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all
bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root
is
best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach
it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this
for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and
purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming
at
you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for
us…
that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying
to
pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m
sorry
but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not
following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can
take
iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic
harley
and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while
you’re
at
it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and
you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or
thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You
just
got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat
iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have
the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat
yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and
eat
iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans
will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the
future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug(
the
best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
Yes Sarah I do agree with you
There is quiet difference to do experience of wine for example where it
grows or where people will give you the knowledge about wine (tanin,arom,
year, how it grows, etc why 1987 is better than 1985).
There is quiet difference if you take coca leaf in Peru and taking cocaine
in city.
It’s the same for iboga&bwiti.
Shamanism is not an easy, soft, and funny experience.
Do you think that to be a pilote of spaceship you doesn’t need a hard work
during years?
If iboga taste is nasty it is like that. You must go throught. Do yoy
think
with should put some sugar in it?
Just women put some palm wine with iboga in Gabon.
You can try direct in the ass( I’m not joking, people tried), it goes
directly from ass to your brain.You have an direct access to vision.It
goes
directly trought the vertebral colonn. I didn’t try.
laurent
Hi Laurent,
You’re a beautiful guy and all I’m gonna add here is that at some point
you’re still going to have to deal with the question of WHO IT ACTUALLY IS
that is doing all this “going through it” stuff. And that it is through
looking at this question that the real business of the treatment will become
apparent.
All these ideas about setting and conditions are fine, fine, fine, but if
you’re left believing that an experience has to be like so, or like so, or
like this so instead, you are actually MISSING your own healing through this
belief. Healing requires nothing else than that you are PRESENT. Healing =
Presence, that’s it. When you are present with a situation, when you are
there in the moment, you are healed. There is absolutely NOTHING else that
needs to happen. NOW……see how your mind reacts to this statement, if it
does, and you have all the guide posts you need.
love
Nick
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] marijuana after iboga treatment
Date: January 13, 2004 at 12:17:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It matters that a range of correctly-grown strains is available, a
variety of delivery methods, and of course wise & experienced advice
tailored to the needs of the individual.
Under these conditions my observations with 6 clients is that they
report marked improvements in several key aspects of their recovery
compared with those who chose not to use cannabis.
Unfortunately there is only one healing centre in the west which can
provide/enable this without inviting the narcs to the party, and that’s
this one here in peaceful rural Holland.
It’s early days for me, but my feeing is that although cannabis is not
for everyone, it is a useful & valued adjunct to the main Iboga
treatment, a tool that both treatment guides & clients are glad is
available here.
The pros outweigh the cons by a long, long way.
If you live in a free country.
^..^<
—–Original Message—–
From: deartheo@ziplip.com [mailto:deartheo@ziplip.com]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 3:52 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] marijuana after iboga treatment
Everyone may have a different personal view, but what has been anyone’s
experience (direct or witnessed) with using or not using marijuana after
iboga(ine) treatment? Do the pro’s outweigh the con’s, both recovery
wise (staying away from drug of choice) and legally (barrier to becoming
a productive member of society)? Does it matter how much or how often
herb is used? Has anyone who administers iboga(ine) seen a pattern
either way?
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: High caused by exercise may be related to cannabis
Date: January 13, 2004 at 7:59:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 7:57 AM
Subject: High caused by exercise may be related to cannabis
Hey all,
It’s no wonder I always feel so…well, that’s streching it a bit…so
somewhat exercised.
Someone in Oz sent me this this morning, so I pass it on to you all.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/01/11/1073769454351.html
High caused by exercise may be related to cannabis
January 12, 2004
Atlanta: The same family of chemicals that produces a buzz in marijuana
smokers may be responsible for “runner’s high”, the euphoric feeling that
some people get when they exercise, US researchers say.
High levels of anandamide were found in young men who ran or cycled at a
moderate rate for about an hour, the study by the Georgia Institute of
Technology and the University of California, Irvine, found.
Anandamide is a cannabinoid, or lipid molecule, that is naturally produced
in the body. It is known to produce sensations that are similar to those
of
THC, the psychoactive property in marijuana.
snip-
Peace,
Preston
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 12, 2004 at 3:59:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Bud, Who in the hell prescribes you 650 mg of Methadone?!!!!!!
Astonished, Callie
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 12, 2004 at 2:43:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/12/04 6:14:10 PM, brad.fisher@guaranty.com writes:
Howard, from your reply it sounds reasonable to attempt coming off Methadone
from my current level even though it may be experimental. Am I reading
your
response correctly?
Coming off yes. Single treatment, no. Patient observations required. Some
questions.
1. How long after dosing with methadone do you begin to go into withdrawal?
2. What withdrawal signs do you have?
Once I receive you answers I will discuss some possibilities.
Have to run now.
Howard
From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 12, 2004 at 1:06:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Howard, from your reply it sounds reasonable to attempt coming off Methadone
from my current level even though it may be experimental. Am I reading your
response correctly?
bf
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 9:30 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
In a message dated 1/12/04 4:38:25 PM, brad.fisher@guaranty.com writes:
I read your note to Callie, I am on 650 mg of Methadone,have been 5 years,
I’ve talked (Internet)
to people who think I am on much to high of a dose to consider Ibogaine,
and
another who feels Ibogaine most certainly would be beneficial, at least
to
help bring my dose lower. More than one session ultimately would be best.
You mentioned others on (huge) doses and that prompted this inquiry. What
is
your thought on my (chances)
bud
Because your dose of methadone is 650mg the procedure will be experimental
more than most. You will also have the opportunity to determine if you want
to
come off of methadone or drop your dose and/or simply feel more comfortable
as
a methadone patient. Of course how you approach is will have to be a
decision between yourself and the provider who treats you. Basically, it
will be a
dose and see protocol.
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 12, 2004 at 12:30:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/12/04 4:38:25 PM, brad.fisher@guaranty.com writes:
I read your note to Callie, I am on 650 mg of Methadone,have been 5 years,
I’ve talked (Internet)
to people who think I am on much to high of a dose to consider Ibogaine,
and
another who feels Ibogaine most certainly would be beneficial, at least
to
help bring my dose lower. More than one session ultimately would be best.
You mentioned others on (huge) doses and that prompted this inquiry. What
is
your thought on my (chances)
bud
Because your dose of methadone is 650mg the procedure will be experimental
more than most. You will also have the opportunity to determine if you want to
come off of methadone or drop your dose and/or simply feel more comfortable as
a methadone patient. Of course how you approach is will have to be a
decision between yourself and the provider who treats you. Basically, it will be a
dose and see protocol.
Howard
From: “Brad Fisher” <brad.fisher@guaranty.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 12, 2004 at 11:42:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Carla B
I read your note to Callie, I am on 650 mg of Methadone,have been 5 years,
I’ve talked (Internet)
to people who think I am on much to high of a dose to consider Ibogaine, and
another who feels Ibogaine most certainly would be beneficial, at least to
help bring my dose lower. More than one session ultimately would be best.
You mentioned others on (huge) doses and that prompted this inquiry. What is
your thought on my (chances)
bud
—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 6:34 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Hi Callie, I wasn’t on a huge dose like some people on
this list, I was at 80mg. I’ve been on mmt for a
little over 3 years, it was my second time on
methadone maintenence. I was on heroin for almost 6
years, I’ve been mostly clean for 2 years now, not
counting mostly 😉 I’ve been off all opiates for 12
months now, I’m not on any other medication and yes I
do smoke pot 😉 I took ibogaine 3 times in total,
each time I lasted a little longer until this last
time where I kept lasting 🙂 🙂 🙂
Carla B
— CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Carla, I am not Joseph but I have a question or two.
How much Methadone were you on and for how long. How
many Ibogaine sessions
did it take. If you don’t mind, are you using
opiates now. If so, how much. Do
you smoke weed regularly?
Thanks in advance, Callie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] african art site
Date: January 12, 2004 at 10:30:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/12/04 3:26:14 PM, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 1/12/04 2:42:12 PM, CallieMimosa@aol.com writes:
Beautiful stuff!
I spent a few dollars there!
Thanks! Callie
Looking forward to your sharing the web page or other address.
Thanks
Sorry, it was in the other email.
www.african-art-net.com
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] african art site
Date: January 12, 2004 at 10:25:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/12/04 2:42:12 PM, CallieMimosa@aol.com writes:
Beautiful stuff!
I spent a few dollars there!
Thanks! Callie
Looking forward to your sharing the web page or other address.
Thanks
Howard
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] african art site
Date: January 12, 2004 at 9:41:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Beautiful stuff!
I spent a few dollars there!
Thanks! Callie
From: “iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] marijuana after iboga treatment
Date: January 12, 2004 at 8:08:06 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
a Website on central african art:
www.african-art-net.com
From: <deartheo@ziplip.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] marijuana after iboga treatment
Date: January 11, 2004 at 9:51:39 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Everyone may have a different personal view, but what has been anyone’s experience (direct or witnessed) with using or not using marijuana after iboga(ine) treatment? Do the pro’s outweigh the con’s, both recovery wise (staying away from drug of choice) and legally (barrier to becoming a productive member of society)? Does it matter how much or how often herb is used? Has anyone who administers iboga(ine) seen a pattern either way?
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] hh
Date: January 11, 2004 at 9:33:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Callie, I wasn’t on a huge dose like some people on
this list, I was at 80mg. I’ve been on mmt for a
little over 3 years, it was my second time on
methadone maintenence. I was on heroin for almost 6
years, I’ve been mostly clean for 2 years now, not
counting mostly 😉 I’ve been off all opiates for 12
months now, I’m not on any other medication and yes I
do smoke pot 😉 I took ibogaine 3 times in total,
each time I lasted a little longer until this last
time where I kept lasting 🙂 🙂 🙂
Carla B
— CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Carla, I am not Joseph but I have a question or two.
How much Methadone were you on and for how long. How
many Ibogaine sessions
did it take. If you don’t mind, are you using
opiates now. If so, how much. Do
you smoke weed regularly?
Thanks in advance, Callie
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 11, 2004 at 9:24:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dave, congratulations! Love to you and your family!
Carla B
— Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
News Flash:
Jasmine Josephine Hunter was born at 10:59am(HST)
Jan 5th 2004 at 8.5 lbs
a healthy and happy little baby.
Mom and Dad both successfully kicked opiate habits
with the help of Ibo… so
perhaps this is the first western Ibo Baby!
not bad for a couple of ex-junkies!
Mom and Dad are overwhelmed, we’ll be contacting
those of you who are our dear
friends individually, when we get settled into our
new routine.
Aloha, boga boga!
~Dave H
aka: G A M M A
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus”
Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
From: Schmoolyboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 11, 2004 at 8:50:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is not the first Western Ibi Baby but still, thats gonna be a really interesting child. Congrats to the parents and stay clean so you will be there for the little love bundle. Teach by example not dogma. You are off to a great start. New life all around.
From: AADeHart@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Rebuttle to High Cost of Prescription Drugs
Date: January 10, 2004 at 3:27:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, sara119@xs4all.nl, ninagay@vonl.com, jimigoodson@hotmail.com, Rickistuart@aol.com, alisharitt@hotmail.com
Cc: jmunding@yahoo.com, daquick@rocketmail.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To those who previously forwarded this, ending with me …
Anne
Dear Ann, I sent your article to all my distributors and got this one reply. I do not use prescription drugs so do not know what they cost. Love, Jean M.
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:54:23 -0800 (PST)
From: “David Quick” <daquick@rocketmail.com> Add to Address Book
Subject: Re: The cost of Drugs
To: “Jean Munding” <jmunding@yahoo.com>
Hi Jean,
I have a question. Where did the prices for the drugs
come from. Case in point: Xanax for a three month
supply has only cost us ~$20.00 not the $136.79 that
is listed below. I don’t mind passing information
along but not when it is blown out of proportion.
Zoloft also is not that expensive. Who ever put this
list together has done a disservice by not stating the
right costs. I would be the first person to say that
the prices are inflated.
Here’s a fact that few may know of: the costs under
research and marketing for the drug companies include
all the free samples that the doctors pass out to
their patients. No that doesn’t make things better
but it is one of the ways that drive up the costs of
the drugs. Also unknown to many is that the
government gives millions of dollars to these drug
companies to develop new drugs–now why don’t they
pass that on to the consumer?
Whoever sent that message to you needs to do more
research.
David
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemadeextract
Date: January 8, 2004 at 7:19:31 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes Sarah I do agree with you
There is quiet difference to do experience of wine for example where it
grows or where people will give you the knowledge about wine
(tanin,arom,
year, how it grows, etc why 1987 is better than 1985).
There is quiet difference if you take coca leaf in Peru and taking
cocaine
in city.
It’s the same for iboga&bwiti.
Shamanism is not an easy, soft, and funny experience.
Do you think that to be a pilote of spaceship you doesn’t need a hard
work
during years?
If iboga taste is nasty it is like that. You must go throught. Do yoy
think
with should put some sugar in it?
Just women put some palm wine with iboga in Gabon.
You can try direct in the ass( I’m not joking, people tried), it goes
directly from ass to your brain.You have an direct access to vision.It
goes
directly trought the vertebral colonn. I didn’t try.
laurent
Dear Mr.Laurent.
Doing an enema works very well indeed. I have seen at an exposition of
old African ceremony tools that they used a tool which has a long tube,
where another person blows the herb into the initiate ass.
That is much easier way for people who have stomach problems.
S.
From: laurent sazy <laurentsazy@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 9, 2004 at 6:02:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On 8/01/04 9:54, “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Nick, In other words I would say ,A good Ceremony is like a good wine in
a good company and a “hotel room” setting is like a cheap one all alone,
you may get drunk from both though.
S.
I can’t agree with this for I have seen how the intentions and vibes
works,
It isn’t only the Iboga or the place or the Shaman but the whole.
If you understand what is placebo you understand that there is more
then
a milieu of self-aggrandisement, which is trust, being a shamen is
self-fulfilment in service of the life. It isn’t self-interest that
makes a human become a shamen.
For sure, I agree with you. And, furthermore, a lot of the work done in
shamanism and also therapy requires a strong ego. You aren’t going to be
able to lead people into their own fear if you come on to them like a
dithering, uncertain idiot. A bit of bravado definitely has its uses.
And,
in both Western and African settings, a bit of showmanship doesn’t go
amiss
either. BUT, it’s also, imo, worth being aware that the risk of all this
ego-strengthening is that you, as a shaman, therapist, or individual,
ultimately MISS the bigger picture. Developing psychic or shamanic
powers
has the associated risk of the individual (so-called) becoming highly
identified with his or her role as shaman, and using it to cover over
all
the places of vulnerability where their own actual liberation is to be
found.
Ultimately, there’s no difference between liberating yourself or
liberating
others. But someone locked into a shaman trip is unlikely to understand
the
immense and liberating truth in this statement
Nick
It is only self-interest when it is done for self liberating or for
Data’s. Iboga will not liberate anyone who is not willing to be
liberated. That isn’t a magic bullet; it will show a data that hard to
make sense because it acts differently on each person.
No one is to say where and when it should be eaten but where and when
are important for those who feel vibes and intentions around them like
kids do.
It’s everyone agenda,and it is how a person feels about doing the
right
thing.
Greetings,
S
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nicks22@onetel.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 januari 2004 20:30
Aan: Ibogaine Mindvox
Onderwerp: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
I have to say I think your post was a bit strong, really, Laurent.
Shamen
the world over have for millenia battled (some not so hard!) with the
tendency to create a “cult of the individual” from their work. And,
frankly,
posts like yours only reinforces this tendency. The notion of the
“great
healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with only limited real use
in
the
work itself. What starts out as a healing gift can easily soon become
simply
a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has exclusive rights over
iboga,
neither corporations nor ethnic or religious groups. I’m sure there a
plenty
of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and Missoko tribespeople
are
inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s to say how and where
iboga
should be eaten.
The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has thus direct connection
with
the formative, primal state of existence from which our own conscious
experience of reality descends. Meaning, roughly, that it can manifest
pretty much according to its own agenda when, where, and unto whom it
wants.
In addition to this, the hardship of African initiations might be
considered
necessary for humans from certain cultural and racial backgrounds, but
I
can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not necessary to use it in
ritual
context. It’s beyond all that
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all
bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root
is
best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach
it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this
for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and
purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming
at
you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for
us…
that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying
to
pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m
sorry
but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not
following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can
take
iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic
harley
and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while
you’re
at
it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and
you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or
thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You
just
got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat
iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have
the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat
yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and
eat
iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans
will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the
future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug(
the
best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
Yes Sarah I do agree with you
There is quiet difference to do experience of wine for example where it
grows or where people will give you the knowledge about wine (tanin,arom,
year, how it grows, etc why 1987 is better than 1985).
There is quiet difference if you take coca leaf in Peru and taking cocaine
in city.
It’s the same for iboga&bwiti.
Shamanism is not an easy, soft, and funny experience.
Do you think that to be a pilote of spaceship you doesn’t need a hard work
during years?
If iboga taste is nasty it is like that. You must go throught. Do yoy think
with should put some sugar in it?
Just women put some palm wine with iboga in Gabon.
You can try direct in the ass( I’m not joking, people tried), it goes
directly from ass to your brain.You have an direct access to vision.It goes
directly trought the vertebral colonn. I didn’t try.
laurent
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 8, 2004 at 3:54:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick, In other words I would say ,A good Ceremony is like a good wine in
a good company and a “hotel room” setting is like a cheap one all alone,
you may get drunk from both though.
S.
I can’t agree with this for I have seen how the intentions and vibes
works,
It isn’t only the Iboga or the place or the Shaman but the whole.
If you understand what is placebo you understand that there is more
then
a milieu of self-aggrandisement, which is trust, being a shamen is
self-fulfilment in service of the life. It isn’t self-interest that
makes a human become a shamen.
For sure, I agree with you. And, furthermore, a lot of the work done in
shamanism and also therapy requires a strong ego. You aren’t going to be
able to lead people into their own fear if you come on to them like a
dithering, uncertain idiot. A bit of bravado definitely has its uses.
And,
in both Western and African settings, a bit of showmanship doesn’t go
amiss
either. BUT, it’s also, imo, worth being aware that the risk of all this
ego-strengthening is that you, as a shaman, therapist, or individual,
ultimately MISS the bigger picture. Developing psychic or shamanic
powers
has the associated risk of the individual (so-called) becoming highly
identified with his or her role as shaman, and using it to cover over
all
the places of vulnerability where their own actual liberation is to be
found.
Ultimately, there’s no difference between liberating yourself or
liberating
others. But someone locked into a shaman trip is unlikely to understand
the
immense and liberating truth in this statement
Nick
It is only self-interest when it is done for self liberating or for
Data’s. Iboga will not liberate anyone who is not willing to be
liberated. That isn’t a magic bullet; it will show a data that hard to
make sense because it acts differently on each person.
No one is to say where and when it should be eaten but where and when
are important for those who feel vibes and intentions around them like
kids do.
It’s everyone agenda,and it is how a person feels about doing the
right
thing.
Greetings,
S
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nicks22@onetel.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 januari 2004 20:30
Aan: Ibogaine Mindvox
Onderwerp: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
I have to say I think your post was a bit strong, really, Laurent.
Shamen
the world over have for millenia battled (some not so hard!) with the
tendency to create a “cult of the individual” from their work. And,
frankly,
posts like yours only reinforces this tendency. The notion of the
“great
healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with only limited real use
in
the
work itself. What starts out as a healing gift can easily soon become
simply
a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has exclusive rights over
iboga,
neither corporations nor ethnic or religious groups. I’m sure there a
plenty
of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and Missoko tribespeople
are
inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s to say how and where
iboga
should be eaten.
The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has thus direct connection
with
the formative, primal state of existence from which our own conscious
experience of reality descends. Meaning, roughly, that it can manifest
pretty much according to its own agenda when, where, and unto whom it
wants.
In addition to this, the hardship of African initiations might be
considered
necessary for humans from certain cultural and racial backgrounds, but
I
can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not necessary to use it in
ritual
context. It’s beyond all that
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all
bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root
is
best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach
it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this
for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and
purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming
at
you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for
us…
that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying
to
pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m
sorry
but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not
following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can
take
iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic
harley
and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while
you’re
at
it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and
you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or
thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You
just
got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat
iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have
the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat
yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and
eat
iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans
will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the
future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug(
the
best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
From: “wachtel” <wachtel@shani.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 9, 2004 at 2:26:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Very Very Mazal Tov to the parents and the baby. May you know only joy and happiness forever and ever.
I am truly delighted.
Boaz wachtel
P.O.Box 2983 E.ven Yehuda 40500
Israel
Tel: 972-54-573679
Fax: 972-9-8996639
—–Original Message—– From: Sara Glatt [mailto:sara119@xs4all.nl] Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 2:04 AM To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
To baby drink well
To Mom &Dad sleep well, enjoy your miracle.
Hugs &Kisses
Sara
> News Flash:
>
> Jasmine Josephine Hunter was born at 10:59am(HST) Jan 5th 2004 at 8.5 lbs
>
> a healthy and happy little baby.
>
> Mom and Dad both successfully kicked opiate habits with the help of Ibo… so
> perhaps this is the first western Ibo Baby!
>
> not bad for a couple of ex-junkies!
>
> Mom and Dad are overwhelmed, we’ll be contacting those of you who are our dear
> friends individually, when we get settled into our new routine.
>
> Aloha, boga boga!
>
> ~Dave H
> aka: G A M M A
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
>
>
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 7, 2004 at 7:04:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To baby drink well
To Mom &Dad sleep well, enjoy your miracle.
Hugs &Kisses
Sara
> News Flash:
>
> Jasmine Josephine Hunter was born at 10:59am(HST) Jan 5th 2004 at 8.5 lbs
>
> a healthy and happy little baby.
>
> Mom and Dad both successfully kicked opiate habits with the help of Ibo… so
> perhaps this is the first western Ibo Baby!
>
> not bad for a couple of ex-junkies!
>
> Mom and Dad are overwhelmed, we’ll be contacting those of you who are our dear
> friends individually, when we get settled into our new routine.
>
> Aloha, boga boga!
>
> ~Dave H
> aka: G A M M A
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
>
>
From: Jeffgd1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 8, 2004 at 3:12:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Congrats!!!!
That is gonna be one special kid!
Freak Freely!
Jeff G
From: “Martine Docin-Julien” <jardin.dj@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 8, 2004 at 1:40:05 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Boga Baby: don’t worry, be happy 🙂
Congratulations to the happy parents, you’re lucky ones for sure ! I wish you the best.
Friendly, Martine
> News Flash:
>
> Jasmine Josephine Hunter was born at 10:59am(HST) Jan 5th 2004 at 8.5 lbs
>
> a healthy and happy little baby.
>
> Mom and Dad both successfully kicked opiate habits with the help of Ibo… so
> perhaps this is the first western Ibo Baby!
>
> not bad for a couple of ex-junkies!
>
> Mom and Dad are overwhelmed, we’ll be contacting those of you who are our dear
> friends individually, when we get settled into our new routine.
>
> Aloha, boga boga!
>
> ~Dave H
> aka: G A M M A
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
>
>
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com>
Subject: Fw: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: February 8, 2004 at 9:11:49 AM EST
To: “Ibogaine Mindvox” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
Hi Adam,
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
I wonder if it is possible to download the many lives of
experience that the Bwiti have with iboga in a single
initiation? Or to make a judgement about what it’s about.
I think a person could download no more than his or her
own ibo experience… and that’s more than plenty in itself.
Put another way, I understand that in a Bwiti initiation there
is a lot going on, someone said it’s like a whole village,
each with a different role, working to enable your rebirth.
It is claimed that this activity works with the iboga.
Given the amount of intention involved (for example the harp
player is said to be actually married to his instrument in a
formal ceremony), I bet it is impossible to fathom what is being
done and why in one visit. And given the comparison of Bwiti
rhythms to theta waves in the brain, I can imagine all that
intention may reflect an understanding of humanity, accumulated
through many people’s experiences with iboga as initiates and
facilitators.
http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules/mmmagazine/showarticle.php?articleto
show=63&language=en
I like the part of ‘engaging in a collective process’– but I
wasn’t aware of the bwiti’s collective shamanism. How so?
The ‘it takes a village’ angle – all those people cooperating
and developing what they do over time.
I know that initiation is a one-time deal, and unless one
has voyaged to the land of the ancestors, one has failed and
will never be ‘banzi’.
Hi guys,
IMO, this notion is a piece of over-macho shamanic bullshit. That there
exists
some inner realm to which only the chosen few have access might give you the
strength to help you face what you fear, but the idea that you only get one
try at it is just crap. If someone chooses to believe a statement like that
above, it says more about what’s going on inside of them than anything else.
Travel deep enough inside and you will realize that there is simply NO ONE
travelling.
About collective shamanism and the power of taking iboga in ritual context,
it’s a great concept but, speaking personally, by far the most powerful
iboga experience I’ve had was all alone in my flat in Soho in Jan 99. Taking
massive amounts in the Cameroun later that year nearly killed me but wasn’t
such a big deal in terms of the visionary state.
In addition, the “past lives” I experienced during that trip were so many in
number (I was “away”
for nearly 7 days) and so placeable in time and space that it couldn’t have
been me who lived them all, not unless I could be in 2 or 3 places at once!
The massive, initiatory dose is to blow away the ego – the false concept of
personal identity. Once this has gone, God knows how much stuff will be
pumped past the eyes of the observing presence within before the drug leaves
the system. And, again, God knows what it all may or may not mean. According
to the Bwiti, as I understand it, once this has been done once, the head is
now “open” and the ego can now be knocked away by much lower doses.
Thanks for the links and references to Bwiti music. If anyone fancies
burning me a copy and sending it to me in the UK, I’d be eternally grateful.
And thanks, Howard, for the info about multiple large doses used by the
Bwiti.
By my reckoning, a highly auspicious time to imbibe iboga, by the way, will
be on the night of 5th Feb, a Thursday, this year. Located right after the
Celtic festival of Imbolc (at the apex of winter and Aquarius), and on the
cusp of a full moon, the energy should be very attuned to rising awareness
and liberation.
Nick
Other than that, iboga is really an annual,
ten-day religious ceremony where the congregation only sips
minute amounts of ‘automatique’, the iboga brew…
Can anyone else confirm this? Do Ngangas and musicians go through
anything further than the initiation? I have heard that some people
(civilians as it were) do the larger doses on a more ongoing basis.
My preference is for people to undergo their experience
as part of a small group comprised of strangers, as opposed
to friends. To share this experience with strangers is very powerful.
As only a stranger can represent the rest of humanity. It is as though
all of mankind, thru this stranger, has beared witness to your
rebirth and then you realize that you are also bearing witness in
return…
Nice idea.
There are other such things that can sanctify, intensify and heck,
I’ll say it, beautify one’s ibo experience. We need to make this list
a collective shamanistic-cartographic endeavor….
Also good to do.
About the Pygmy music you listen to-are these recordings
of Baka Pygmies? I have 2 cds, “Spirit of the Forest” and
“Heart of the Forest” by Martin Cradick…
‘Heart’ is pure pygmy music while ‘Spirit’ is Martin jamming
with them…. very cool stuff indeed….
I have ‘Heart’ and like it; so far have listened mostly to
Turnbull’s recordings of Mbuti, and Ba-benzele also sounds
good. These two would make a good addition to ‘Heart’:
SFCD 40401 MBUTI PYGMIES OF THE ITURI RAINFOREST
(SMITHSONIAN/FOLKWAYS,1992)
(merges both of Turnbull’s original releases)
CD 5107 AFRICA : THE BA-BENZELE PYGMIES (ROUNDER,1998)
Just scored ‘Bayaka’ (out of print) on ebay yesterday, so
am looking forward to that. There are big similarities between
all the Pygmy recordings I’ve heard, no matter what the group.
Here’s a big list of recordings of Pygmies:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/fbeat/africa/08-dengu/08102.html
Bill
From: “contact” <contact@art-africain.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract/laurent answer
Date: January 8, 2004 at 9:40:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Tout a fait d’accord avec toi Laurent.
Djoan/kombo Ngomoko
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 8, 2004 at 8:06:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
…. this year is starting to look better by the day….
all the best, gamma-dada,
http://www.henry.martinez.net/misc/ucandoit.htm
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “Gamma” <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 11:45 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
News Flash:
Jasmine Josephine Hunter was born at 10:59am(HST) Jan 5th 2004 at 8.5 lbs
a healthy and happy little baby.
Mom and Dad both successfully kicked opiate habits with the help of Ibo…
so
perhaps this is the first western Ibo Baby!
not bad for a couple of ex-junkies!
Mom and Dad are overwhelmed, we’ll be contacting those of you who are our
dear
friends individually, when we get settled into our new routine.
Aloha, boga boga!
~Dave H
aka: G A M M A
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
From: IBOGA Foundation <iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 8, 2004 at 3:00:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jasmine Josephine,
welcome to this beautiful world!
(your first words wil probbably be “boga boga” ;-))
And congratulations to Dave and Geerte!
Marko
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Gamma wrote:
News Flash:
Jasmine Josephine Hunter was born at 10:59am(HST) Jan 5th 2004 at 8.5 lbs
a healthy and happy little baby.
Mom and Dad both successfully kicked opiate habits with the help of Ibo… so
perhaps this is the first western Ibo Baby!
not bad for a couple of ex-junkies!
Mom and Dad are overwhelmed, we’ll be contacting those of you who are our dear
friends individually, when we get settled into our new routine.
Aloha, boga boga!
~Dave H
aka: G A M M A
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 7, 2004 at 11:19:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Nick! re: “Ultimately, there’s no difference between liberating yourself or liberating
others. But someone locked into a shaman trip is unlikely to understand the
immense and liberating truth in this statement”
Wow, I mean really wow. This sort of says everything in one epiphanous statement–and yet with the understanding that we, both observers and participants, as everyone really is, in our “little” piece of the quantum universe, are related in the One, even when we can’t see it because we must discern in order to perform. Awesome.
Still after all these years, Jane
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] RE:Medication price,
Date: January 6, 2004 at 7:15:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Did you ever wonder how much it costs a drug company for the active
ingredient in prescription medications? Some people think it must cost a
lot, since many drugs sell for more than $2.00 per tablet. We did a
search of offshore chemical synthesizers that supply the active
ingredients found in drugs approved by the FDA. As we have revealed in
past issues of Life Extension, a significant percentage of drugs sold in
the United States contain active ingredients made in other countries. In
our independent investigation of how much profit drug companies really
make, we obtained the actual price of active ingredients used in some of
the most popular drugs sold in America. The chart below speaks for
itself.
BRAND NAME OF DRUG
CONSUMER PRICE 100 TABS
COST OF GENERAL ACTIVE INGREDIENTS
PERCENT MARKUP
Celebrex 100 mg $130.27 $0.60 21,712%
Claritin 10 mg $215.17 $0.71 30,306%
Keflex 250 mg $157.39 $1.88 8,372%
Lipitor 20 mg $272.37 $5.80 4,696%
Norvasc 10 mg $188.29 $0.14 134,493%
Paxil 20 mg $220.27 $7.60 2,898%
Prevacid 30 mg $44.77 $1.01 34,136%
Prilosec 20 mg $360.97 $0.52 69,417%
Prozac 20 mg $247.47 $0.11 224,973%
Tenormin 50 mg $104.47 $0.13 80,362%
Vasotec 10 mg $102.37 $0.20 51,185%
Xanax 1mg $136.79 $0.024 569,958%
Zestril 20 mg $89.89 $3.20 2,809%
Zithromax 600mg $1,482.19 $18.78 7,892%
Zocor 40mg $350.27 $8.63 4,059%
Zoloft 50mg $206.87 $1.75 11,821%
***** Since the cost of prescription drugs is so outrageous, I thought
everyone I knew should know about this. Please read the following
and pass it on.
It pays to shop around. This helps to solve the mystery as to why they
can afford to put a Walgreens on every corner………………
On Monday night, Steve Wilson, an investigative reporter for channel 7
News in Detroit, did a story on generic drug price gouging by
pharmacies. He found in his investigation, that some of these generic
drugs were marked up as much as 3,000% or more. Yes, that’s not a
typo….. three thousand percent!
So often, we blame the drug companies for the high cost of drugs, and
usually rightfully so. But in this case, the fault clearly lies with the
pharmacies themselves. For example, if you had to buy a prescription
drug, and bought the name brand, you might pay $100 for 100 pills. The
pharmacist might tell you that if you get the generic equivalent, they
would only cost $80, making you think you are “saving” $20. What the
pharmacist is not telling you is that those 100 generic pills may have
only cost him $10!
At the end of the report, one of the anchors asked Mr. Wilson whether or
not there were any pharmacies that did not adhere to this practice, and
he said that Costco consistently charged little over their cost for the
generic drugs.
I went to the Costco site, where you can look up any drug, and get its
online price. It says that the in-store prices are consistent with the
online prices. I was appalled. Just to give you one example from my own
experience, I had to use the drug, Compazine, which helps prevent nausea
in chemo patients. I used the generic equivalent, which cost $54.99 for
60pills at CVS. I checked the price at Costco, and I! could have bought
100 pills for $19.89. For 145 of my pain pills, I paid $72.57. I could
have got 150 at Costco for $28.08.I would like to mention, that although
Costco is a “membership” type store, you do NOT have to be a member to
buy prescriptions there, as it is a federally regulated substance. You
just tell them at the door that you wish to use the pharmacy, and they
will let you in.
I am asking each of you to please help me by copying this letter, and
pasting it into your own email, and send it to everyone you know with an
email
From: laurent sazy <laurentsazy@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 7, 2004 at 5:40:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On 7/01/04 16:56, “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
Hi Adam,
Put another way, I understand that in a Bwiti initiation there
is a lot going on, someone said it’s like a whole village,
each with a different role, working to enable your rebirth.
It is claimed that this activity works with the iboga.
Given the amount of intention involved (for example the harp
player is said to be actually married to his instrument in a
formal ceremony), I bet it is impossible to fathom what is being
done and why in one visit.
Hi Bill,
That is one bet you would loose.
It is like a whole village, unless it’s not.
Everyone plays a role, but most play the role of attendees, just as
any congregation, except there’s almost no sitting down…
And just like churches, mosques and synagogues everwhere,
they may be running a full-house with top-billings or getting by on
a meager turn-out.
And all this does not matter in the least.
Btw, I’ll add a small jpg to this email, which you and others may find
interesting…
That’s St. Michael, not Jesus, savior and patron of iboga, but this is not
true for all Bwitis.
I would have agreed with you, from my arrival there till a little into my
initiation, that I
am not in a position to understand nor assess anything I was witnessing, let
alone all
things Bwiti.
But once you take iboga, you wake-up to your higher self,
and you *know*; you flicked on a floodlight in a dark-room.
And the one thing you can take to the bank is that the whole ceremony is
just a show…
No offense intended, and it’s a great show… but I’ve been backstage.
This show comes with a programme, and I’m not using this word
lightly. According to my dic’, ‘programme’ means, among
other things-
1) A system of projects or services intended to meet a public need
2) A performance (or series of performances) at a public presentation
3) A series of steps to be carried out or goals to be accomplished
And yes this programme serves the bwiti initiates, and the continuity
of the bwiti tradition, culture and way of life. But you and westerners in
general would be in for a rude awakening. Because….
The programme is to make your immediate surroundings a living hell and
they are very, very accomplished in that respect. Because the iboga, for
the
initiate, is intended strictly for ‘voyaging’ and the best way they can send
you
off is to freak you right out of yourself… It’s all part of the show…
It starts with painting you red, then the 2 wreaths that crisscross your
chest like
ammo-belts and the crown one. Once you lie down, (on your right side only,
for
the next 3 days) the crushing of the wreaths releases this awful,
nauseating, fragrance
that just torments the hell out of you.
They also burn bouquets of the same stuff from the other side of the wall,
and the wall
doesn’t reach the floor, see, in fact, there’s almost a foot missing at the
bottom, right by
our heads, and a little further in, another embankment, maybe 3 feet high..
so while you
can’t see anything, every once in a while, they smoke a bouquet in this
space, and this
too just overwhelms you…
It gets better… the music.. yes, there was the harpsichord, but also a
dozen wood logs for
drums, and most were not the hollow cool-sounding ones; the cacophony is
literally intended
to crack open your head…
And then you tune-in to this alluring and seductive melody..
Until you snap out in shock- how the hell did I listened to that thru all
the racket? How can I
know/follow the harp player around in the other room, with or without the
racket? How can
I even tell that he’s playing it very gently, almost too softly for normal
hearing conditions?
The answer is ‘assemblage point’, which is sort of the focal point of your
being.
And in our daily lives, we are too attached to, and identified with, our own
physical bodies
to let our ‘assemblage point’ go wandering about… Just knowing about this
can go a very long
way on your next ibo trip… (For more info on the ‘assemblage point’, I
recommend Jon Whale’s
‘The Catalyst of Power’…)
Here’s another personal example.. I’m lying on my side, supporting my head
in an upright position
with my forearm, and there’s this little bug crawling on the floor next to
me… I’m checking him out..
not fascinated by it, just observing him, but in doing so I’m zooming in,
easily, and checking him out
some more, and now he’s occupying most of my field of vison, as though he
was the size of a tank,
and then the size of a macy-parade balloon-character, and I’m checking out
his under-side!!!
-“whoooaa” is right, I snap out and realize, I never ‘physically’ moved an
inch…
I attended a 10-day vipassana retreat (meditation) a year ago, where they
teach you to focus your ‘self’
or ‘assemblage point’ on this one tiny spot just underneath the nose,
between the nostrils and to shrink
that spot so that your ‘presence’ occupies less and less space…
With practice, you can experience/merge with a single cell, in its entirety,
access the dna, or go further
and experience quantum reality… Until less than a century ago, no western
scholar could make heads
or tails from eastern esoteric writings; we had to first discover quantum
physics for ourselves…
And there I was, knowing that this was something that I actually experienced
in africa; I knew,
intimately, parts of my body, anywhere I chose to roam-scan-know, and I knew
that I would never manage
to put any of it into words– like Neo in the first Matrix, I was
‘mouthless’… I didn’t know, though, that I
could go even beyond the spot/area on my body… now I’m aware of this
potentiality and so are you.
So you could attend, in theory, a great, authentic, bwiti initiation, or a
lousy one, with an abbe
who rummages thru your bags and where money and valuables disappear, where
the
abbe’s father molests 7 year old girls, where people bare naked aggression
in hourly matches of
bravura and where a whole lot of shit just goes on and on for the pettiest
of reasons..
And you know what, it makes no difference, because you are going to take
iboga and flick the light
on, you’re going to go backstage and laugh at that old ‘you’ that set out to
meet noble, enlightened
spiritual tribesmen and ended up in an african hillbillia, and even then,
you’re going to see yourself
in them- maybe be lucky enough to turn around to glance at the initiate next
to you, who happens
to be the trembling, bug-eyed 8 year old daughter of the abbe and
connect/download/merge with
her… even if just for a few secs…
…so you’d loose the bet, Bill, because iboga would not be iboga, if it
required anything, other
than you stepping up to the plate….
That’s not to say I advocate taking iboga without a guide… But we need
western guides for
western initiates… we won’t approach the cultural heritage of the bwiti,
but we’ve got to start
somewhere….
Many thanks on the Pygmy music link/info, I’d love to get my hands on more
for my upcoming
voyage…
sincerely,
Adam Gur
Bokayé Adam,
I just read your camerounese experience after answering you. Sorry for the
bad experience. I’m very lucky to work with quiet good people.
I can understand what is your feeling after so much violence. I saw bad
comportement from initiate people . Even sometimes when I saw how they act,
I asked myself why giving iboga to this man. He just need to eat “caca de
poules”( chicken shit).
Yes in Africa, people spoke strongly with violence, yes they robe your money
, yes you have to take care of your pocket, even in the Bwiti, yes they can
brings machettes……etc Africa has a strong past and I saw in Gabon how
much was the influence of colonisation and religion(mostly christian).
Mind is broken….but still alive and the réunification with the past
through iboga and Bwiti is an interesting road because we crossed on the
same ways.
This is why the rituals and protocoles are interresting(you have to find
good master), because like in School or every where, students or teachers
can be bad but the program is interesting. You can learn for your
environment..
Before in the Bwiti they were working with ancestor crâne, and others bad
things, now with the people with I’m working they decide to stop black or
white magie or sorcellery and just works for the light and to exchange
knowledge because it is the way to survive.
Sorry for the music but you had probably bad musicians. Because I have
discovered the Mongongo ( arc en bouche) great instrument and what about
harp or percussions or songs with female voice……….The voice of the
mongongo it is the iboga road…….
Clapping hands for all night under iboga influence or dancing ……it is
good for heart and iboga works with heart and brain……….probably for
some people it doesn’t work…..what can we do
For iboga taste ….in french we said “c’est comme boire la mer ou la mère”
mais iboga est un bois amer because life is amertume no?
Peace
laurent
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 7, 2004 at 5:07:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 01:45:59PM -0800], [Gamma] wrote:
| News Flash:
|
| Jasmine Josephine Hunter was born at 10:59am(HST) Jan 5th 2004 at 8.5 lbs
|
| a healthy and happy little baby.
|
| Mom and Dad both successfully kicked opiate habits with the help of Ibo… so
| perhaps this is the first western Ibo Baby!
|
| not bad for a couple of ex-junkies!
|
| Mom and Dad are overwhelmed, we’ll be contacting those of you who are our dear
| friends individually, when we get settled into our new routine.
|
| Aloha, boga boga!
To repeat whut wuz just screamed over da phone: Rock the fuck out meng!
And congratulations!
When she starts to levitate I expect pikshoOrz.
Dana, this calls for sum kinda present. Boxes packed with hunnert dollah
billz are usually appropriate for all occasions I think, I thunk,
therefore I wuz.
Patrick
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Baby Boga
Date: January 7, 2004 at 4:45:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
News Flash:
Jasmine Josephine Hunter was born at 10:59am(HST) Jan 5th 2004 at 8.5 lbs
a healthy and happy little baby.
Mom and Dad both successfully kicked opiate habits with the help of Ibo… so
perhaps this is the first western Ibo Baby!
not bad for a couple of ex-junkies!
Mom and Dad are overwhelmed, we’ll be contacting those of you who are our dear
friends individually, when we get settled into our new routine.
Aloha, boga boga!
~Dave H
aka: G A M M A
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the “Signing Bonus” Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
From: laurent sazy <laurentsazy@free.fr>
Subject: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract/laurent answer
Date: January 7, 2004 at 4:36:14 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On 6/01/04 20:29, “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com> wrote:
I have to say I think your post was a bit strong, really, Laurent. Shamen
the world over have for millenia battled (some not so hard!) with the
tendency to create a “cult of the individual” from their work. And, frankly,
posts like yours only reinforces this tendency. The notion of the “great
healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with only limited real use in the
work itself. What starts out as a healing gift can easily soon become simply
a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has exclusive rights over iboga,
neither corporations nor ethnic or religious groups. I’m sure there a plenty
of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and Missoko tribespeople are
inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s to say how and where iboga
should be eaten.
The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has thus direct connection with
the formative, primal state of existence from which our own conscious
experience of reality descends. Meaning, roughly, that it can manifest
pretty much according to its own agenda when, where, and unto whom it wants.
In addition to this, the hardship of African initiations might be considered
necessary for humans from certain cultural and racial backgrounds, but I
can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not necessary to use it in ritual
context. It’s beyond all that
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root is
best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming at
you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for us…
that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying to
pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m sorry but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not
following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can take
iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic harley and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while you’re at
it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You just got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat
yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and eat
iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the
future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug( the best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
Bokayé Nick,
Like I replied to Adam, or others, I just give my feeling and observations
after working with Ngangas-shaman since 3-4Years and see many
initiations(black and white people) with iboga.
In the beginning I refused the protocole or the ritual. After long talk with
Mallendi, I understand and find an extraordinary technology even clapping my
hands all night like a machine and repeating pygmés song in which you
understand nothing…etc even seating on a hard piece of wood all night, and
facing the mirror etc…
I’m working with Ngangas mallendi and his Spiritual father Nganga
Ehoumou(who was formed in pygmés campement in Congo 40 years ago).
I really can confirm about knowledge. They really know how to use leaves,
root, animals, and read in invisible. They know to read your body and to
read Nature. And much more I can’t descripted
Yes, for sure there is ego but who is not.
Shamanism is an old technology and if you want to learn it , it’s better to
have an adviser. Who is going to teach you the bird language or what is the
parrot feather rule in the process. Oral language so you need teachers and
have experience. First you do and after you have explications. There is an
explication.
Even in Gabon I saw gabonese in the Bwiti making mistake after being looking
for iboga. It was like iboga but not.
Banzi were lucky that Mallendi check it before. How can you recognize your
iboga root than others?
For iboga initiations It is 3 days with protocoles (to die and rebirth ).
I mean, it is a delicate operation. But they have natural tools to do it.
And the protocole is to help you to see and to “fly” correctly. You are
never loose on the road. Even with them it is a fucking experience!
And it is bigger than that. And the way they do it give you an extraordinary
sens of understanding.
Nobody has the exlusive right on iboga and nobody could tell me where I can
eat iboga……well Do you know the story on Lauren Miller who tried to put
a patent on ayahuasca. With the great gift, pygmés give to us, we must
respected ,and listen how Shamans from Gabon Or peru can teach us.
after many centuries of colonialism, slavery,and now economic roberry with
petrol and forest I will prefer the royalties going back to people in Gabon
or to give money for initiation to Mallendi who is a shaman who tried to do
a lot than to market system or pharmaceutical or going to take iboga in
hospital. I really prefer the “folklore” of the ritual which is not
folklore, but really serious, natural and ecologic…etc
Why do you think religion and now movies, fictions and scientific research
give more importance in “shamanism”. Why J.Narby in cosmic snake makes link
between shamanism, language, DNA,plants…Why Mallendi transform himself to
a panther for healing, why prehistoric shamans paint wall in
grottes………why Bouddhist are talking about réincarnation, what about
mineral, vegetal, animal , human cycle,
How with iboga you can connect with past present and future and learn to
see? Iboga, bwiti and yourself will answer to all yours questions and give
you the good road to follow. Bwiti is like the oldest university for human
to survive in rainforest. Ngangas explain all from the top of your head to
your feet, from all your body to environment around(the world of forest).
they are teachers like in school.
I hope this will explain why I prefer people going to have experience in a
good place where grow iboga naturally and where people practise it since
centuries (paléolithic time).Pygmés are probably the oldest people from
where we all come from.
Also it will be probably the experience of your life and you will discover a
fantastic tradition really in the future.
As I said before, Mallendi is trying to open a village in South Gabon, a new
village for initiations and more. I just can invite people to visit him and
to see how things happen there.( you can have information on bwiti.com or
mallendi@voila.fr).
You know it is not my business, I just did photo on what I see . I’m not
Christian, jews or bouddhist, muslem etc maybe just trying to be
“religere”(latin language) . Iboga is probably the tree of knowledge, the
root of time, something we do respect so much because it is sacred.
Laurent/ka
Ngenza
Ps Mallendi grand father was killed by missionaries for practising shamanism
like our sorcery in Middle age
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 7, 2004 at 4:03:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Many thanks on the Pygmy music link/info, I’d love to get my
hands on more for my upcoming voyage…
Two other African albums that remind me of Bwiti music:
Soubindoor by Jali Musa Jawara (harp and other instruments)
Masters of the African Mbira, Ephat Mujuru /ARC MUSIC 1549
(some tracks, including the 1st)
Both include vocals.
I see the mbira one has samples you can listen to on bn.com.
Other mbira albums did not impress me the same way.
Bill
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: February 7, 2004 at 3:04:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
I can’t agree with this for I have seen how the intentions and vibes
works,
It isn’t only the Iboga or the place or the Shaman but the whole.
If you understand what is placebo you understand that there is more then
a milieu of self-aggrandisement, which is trust, being a shamen is
self-fulfilment in service of the life. It isn’t self-interest that
makes a human become a shamen.
For sure, I agree with you. And, furthermore, a lot of the work done in
shamanism and also therapy requires a strong ego. You aren’t going to be
able to lead people into their own fear if you come on to them like a
dithering, uncertain idiot. A bit of bravado definitely has its uses. And,
in both Western and African settings, a bit of showmanship doesn’t go amiss
either. BUT, it’s also, imo, worth being aware that the risk of all this
ego-strengthening is that you, as a shaman, therapist, or individual,
ultimately MISS the bigger picture. Developing psychic or shamanic powers
has the associated risk of the individual (so-called) becoming highly
identified with his or her role as shaman, and using it to cover over all
the places of vulnerability where their own actual liberation is to be
found.
Ultimately, there’s no difference between liberating yourself or liberating
others. But someone locked into a shaman trip is unlikely to understand the
immense and liberating truth in this statement
Nick
It is only self-interest when it is done for self liberating or for
Data’s. Iboga will not liberate anyone who is not willing to be
liberated. That isn’t a magic bullet; it will show a data that hard to
make sense because it acts differently on each person.
No one is to say where and when it should be eaten but where and when
are important for those who feel vibes and intentions around them like
kids do.
It’s everyone agenda,and it is how a person feels about doing the right
thing.
Greetings,
S
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nicks22@onetel.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 januari 2004 20:30
Aan: Ibogaine Mindvox
Onderwerp: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
I have to say I think your post was a bit strong, really, Laurent.
Shamen
the world over have for millenia battled (some not so hard!) with the
tendency to create a “cult of the individual” from their work. And,
frankly,
posts like yours only reinforces this tendency. The notion of the “great
healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with only limited real use in
the
work itself. What starts out as a healing gift can easily soon become
simply
a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has exclusive rights over iboga,
neither corporations nor ethnic or religious groups. I’m sure there a
plenty
of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and Missoko tribespeople are
inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s to say how and where
iboga
should be eaten.
The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has thus direct connection
with
the formative, primal state of existence from which our own conscious
experience of reality descends. Meaning, roughly, that it can manifest
pretty much according to its own agenda when, where, and unto whom it
wants.
In addition to this, the hardship of African initiations might be
considered
necessary for humans from certain cultural and racial backgrounds, but I
can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not necessary to use it in
ritual
context. It’s beyond all that
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all
bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root is
best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and
purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming
at
you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for us…
that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying to
pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m sorry
but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not
following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can take
iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic harley
and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while you’re
at
it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and
you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or
thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You just
got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat
iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have
the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat
yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and eat
iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans
will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the
future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug( the
best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 7, 2004 at 10:56:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
Hi Adam,
Put another way, I understand that in a Bwiti initiation there
is a lot going on, someone said it’s like a whole village,
each with a different role, working to enable your rebirth.
It is claimed that this activity works with the iboga.
Given the amount of intention involved (for example the harp
player is said to be actually married to his instrument in a
formal ceremony), I bet it is impossible to fathom what is being
done and why in one visit.
Hi Bill,
That is one bet you would loose.
It is like a whole village, unless it’s not.
Everyone plays a role, but most play the role of attendees, just as
any congregation, except there’s almost no sitting down…
And just like churches, mosques and synagogues everwhere,
they may be running a full-house with top-billings or getting by on
a meager turn-out.
And all this does not matter in the least.
Btw, I’ll add a small jpg to this email, which you and others may find
interesting…
That’s St. Michael, not Jesus, savior and patron of iboga, but this is not
true for all Bwitis.
I would have agreed with you, from my arrival there till a little into my
initiation, that I
am not in a position to understand nor assess anything I was witnessing, let
alone all
things Bwiti.
But once you take iboga, you wake-up to your higher self,
and you *know*; you flicked on a floodlight in a dark-room.
And the one thing you can take to the bank is that the whole ceremony is
just a show…
No offense intended, and it’s a great show… but I’ve been backstage.
This show comes with a programme, and I’m not using this word
lightly. According to my dic’, ‘programme’ means, among
other things-
1) A system of projects or services intended to meet a public need
2) A performance (or series of performances) at a public presentation
3) A series of steps to be carried out or goals to be accomplished
And yes this programme serves the bwiti initiates, and the continuity
of the bwiti tradition, culture and way of life. But you and westerners in
general would be in for a rude awakening. Because….
The programme is to make your immediate surroundings a living hell and
they are very, very accomplished in that respect. Because the iboga, for
the
initiate, is intended strictly for ‘voyaging’ and the best way they can send
you
off is to freak you right out of yourself… It’s all part of the show…
It starts with painting you red, then the 2 wreaths that crisscross your
chest like
ammo-belts and the crown one. Once you lie down, (on your right side only,
for
the next 3 days) the crushing of the wreaths releases this awful,
nauseating, fragrance
that just torments the hell out of you.
They also burn bouquets of the same stuff from the other side of the wall,
and the wall
doesn’t reach the floor, see, in fact, there’s almost a foot missing at the
bottom, right by
our heads, and a little further in, another embankment, maybe 3 feet high..
so while you
can’t see anything, every once in a while, they smoke a bouquet in this
space, and this
too just overwhelms you…
It gets better… the music.. yes, there was the harpsichord, but also a
dozen wood logs for
drums, and most were not the hollow cool-sounding ones; the cacophony is
literally intended
to crack open your head…
And then you tune-in to this alluring and seductive melody..
Until you snap out in shock- how the hell did I listened to that thru all
the racket? How can I
know/follow the harp player around in the other room, with or without the
racket? How can
I even tell that he’s playing it very gently, almost too softly for normal
hearing conditions?
The answer is ‘assemblage point’, which is sort of the focal point of your
being.
And in our daily lives, we are too attached to, and identified with, our own
physical bodies
to let our ‘assemblage point’ go wandering about… Just knowing about this
can go a very long
way on your next ibo trip… (For more info on the ‘assemblage point’, I
recommend Jon Whale’s
‘The Catalyst of Power’…)
Here’s another personal example.. I’m lying on my side, supporting my head
in an upright position
with my forearm, and there’s this little bug crawling on the floor next to
me… I’m checking him out..
not fascinated by it, just observing him, but in doing so I’m zooming in,
easily, and checking him out
some more, and now he’s occupying most of my field of vison, as though he
was the size of a tank,
and then the size of a macy-parade balloon-character, and I’m checking out
his under-side!!!
-“whoooaa” is right, I snap out and realize, I never ‘physically’ moved an
inch…
I attended a 10-day vipassana retreat (meditation) a year ago, where they
teach you to focus your ‘self’
or ‘assemblage point’ on this one tiny spot just underneath the nose,
between the nostrils and to shrink
that spot so that your ‘presence’ occupies less and less space…
With practice, you can experience/merge with a single cell, in its entirety,
access the dna, or go further
and experience quantum reality… Until less than a century ago, no western
scholar could make heads
or tails from eastern esoteric writings; we had to first discover quantum
physics for ourselves…
And there I was, knowing that this was something that I actually experienced
in africa; I knew,
intimately, parts of my body, anywhere I chose to roam-scan-know, and I knew
that I would never manage
to put any of it into words– like Neo in the first Matrix, I was
‘mouthless’… I didn’t know, though, that I
could go even beyond the spot/area on my body… now I’m aware of this
potentiality and so are you.
So you could attend, in theory, a great, authentic, bwiti initiation, or a
lousy one, with an abbe
who rummages thru your bags and where money and valuables disappear, where
the
abbe’s father molests 7 year old girls, where people bare naked aggression
in hourly matches of
bravura and where a whole lot of shit just goes on and on for the pettiest
of reasons..
And you know what, it makes no difference, because you are going to take
iboga and flick the light
on, you’re going to go backstage and laugh at that old ‘you’ that set out to
meet noble, enlightened
spiritual tribesmen and ended up in an african hillbillia, and even then,
you’re going to see yourself
in them- maybe be lucky enough to turn around to glance at the initiate next
to you, who happens
to be the trembling, bug-eyed 8 year old daughter of the abbe and
connect/download/merge with
her… even if just for a few secs…
…so you’d loose the bet, Bill, because iboga would not be iboga, if it
required anything, other
than you stepping up to the plate….
That’s not to say I advocate taking iboga without a guide… But we need
western guides for
western initiates… we won’t approach the cultural heritage of the bwiti,
but we’ve got to start
somewhere….
Many thanks on the Pygmy music link/info, I’d love to get my hands on more
for my upcoming
voyage…
sincerely,
Adam Gur
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 6, 2004 at 11:43:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I can’t agree with this for I have seen how the intentions and vibes
works,
It isn’t only the Iboga or the place or the Shaman but the whole.
If you understand what is placebo you understand that there is more then
a milieu of self-aggrandisement, which is trust, being a shamen is
self-fulfilment in service of the life. It isn’t self-interest that
makes a human become a shamen.
It is only self-interest when it is done for self liberating or for
Data’s. Iboga will not liberate anyone who is not willing to be
liberated. That isn’t a magic bullet; it will show a data that hard to
make sense because it acts differently on each person.
No one is to say where and when it should be eaten but where and when
are important for those who feel vibes and intentions around them like
kids do.
It’s everyone agenda,and it is how a person feels about doing the right
thing.
Greetings,
S
—–Oorspronkelijk bericht—–
Van: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nicks22@onetel.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 januari 2004 20:30
Aan: Ibogaine Mindvox
Onderwerp: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade
extract
I have to say I think your post was a bit strong, really, Laurent.
Shamen
the world over have for millenia battled (some not so hard!) with the
tendency to create a “cult of the individual” from their work. And,
frankly,
posts like yours only reinforces this tendency. The notion of the “great
healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with only limited real use in
the
work itself. What starts out as a healing gift can easily soon become
simply
a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has exclusive rights over iboga,
neither corporations nor ethnic or religious groups. I’m sure there a
plenty
of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and Missoko tribespeople are
inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s to say how and where
iboga
should be eaten.
The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has thus direct connection
with
the formative, primal state of existence from which our own conscious
experience of reality descends. Meaning, roughly, that it can manifest
pretty much according to its own agenda when, where, and unto whom it
wants.
In addition to this, the hardship of African initiations might be
considered
necessary for humans from certain cultural and racial backgrounds, but I
can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not necessary to use it in
ritual
context. It’s beyond all that
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all
bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root is
best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and
purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming
at
you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for us…
that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying to
pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m sorry
but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not
following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can take
iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic harley
and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while you’re
at
it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and
you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or
thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You just
got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat
iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have
the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat
yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and eat
iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans
will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the
future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug( the
best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine conference reports
Date: January 6, 2004 at 11:50:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I am pleased to provide the Dora Weiner Foundation report on the California
Society of Addiction Medicine, Invitational Conference on Drug User Activism
and the Drug Policy Alliance 2003 Biennial conference.
The index below is available from http://www.doraweiner.org/e_w_report.html
Index
Introduction
California Society of Addiction Medicine conference
Stanley D. Glick, MD, PhD
Deborah C. Mash, PhD and Jeffrey Kamlet, MD
Dorit Ron, PhD
Office Based Treatment with Buprenorphine
Invitational Conference on Drug User Activism
Overview
International Drug Users Day
Tenth Anniversary Celebration of BrugerForeningen
Drug Policy Alliance 2003 Biennial conference
DPA Mission Statement
Conference Review
Plenary
Ibogaine Roundtable
Prescribing Heroin
Harm Reduction Psychotherapy
Methadone and Buprenorphine
Pain, Opiates and Opiophobia
Reverend Edwin Sander, II
Exhibits
1. MP3 Recordings of CSAM presentations
2. California Society of Addiction Medicine (CSAM) web page
3. Brochure – Conference on Drug User Activism
4. Danish Drug Users Union web page
5. Drug Policy Alliance (DPA) Web page
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 6, 2004 at 6:52:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 1/6/04 11:33:23 PM, ross@cgl.ucsf.edu writes:
I know that initiation is a one-time deal, and unless one
has voyaged to the land of the ancestors, one has failed and
will never be ‘banzi’. Other than that, iboga is really an annual,
ten-day religious ceremony where the congregation only sips
minute amounts of ‘automatique’, the iboga brew…
Can anyone else confirm this? Do Ngangas and musicians go through
anything further than the initiation? I have heard that some people
(civilians as it were) do the larger doses on a more ongoing basis.
I can’t confirm it by first person observation but, everything I have been
told or read indicates individuals may take high doses of iboga on more than one
occasion. The Bwiti initiation may be distinct from other high dose use. I
would like Laurent to comment on this but, from his photographic exhibit <
http://ibogaine.org/ehoumou19.html> as it seems Ehoumou conducts Bwiti initiations
that he is using high or mid dose iboga on these occasions for medical
consultations. It is common knowledge that low doses are used for remembrance and
stimulant purposes by chapel members during Bwiti initiations and possibly
other Bwiti rites. There are reports of Bwiti and possibly others taking high
doses of iboga on more than one occasion for various reasons other than Bwiti
initiations, principally for healing purposes it appears. But, the exact doses
used are not given and doses vary from individual to individual. As to the
annual aspect of the rites, some rites are annual and others are when necessary or
indicated. Sazy’s photographs show both but, let’s hear from Laurent on
this. http://www.ibogaine.org/sazy.html
Howard
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 6, 2004 at 6:32:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Adam,
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
I wonder if it is possible to download the many lives of
experience that the Bwiti have with iboga in a single
initiation? Or to make a judgement about what it’s about.
I think a person could download no more than his or her
own ibo experience… and that’s more than plenty in itself.
Put another way, I understand that in a Bwiti initiation there
is a lot going on, someone said it’s like a whole village,
each with a different role, working to enable your rebirth.
It is claimed that this activity works with the iboga.
Given the amount of intention involved (for example the harp
player is said to be actually married to his instrument in a
formal ceremony), I bet it is impossible to fathom what is being
done and why in one visit. And given the comparison of Bwiti
rhythms to theta waves in the brain, I can imagine all that
intention may reflect an understanding of humanity, accumulated
through many people’s experiences with iboga as initiates and
facilitators.
http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules/mmmagazine/showarticle.php?articletoshow=63&language=en
I like the part of ‘engaging in a collective process’– but I
wasn’t aware of the bwiti’s collective shamanism. How so?
The ‘it takes a village’ angle – all those people cooperating
and developing what they do over time.
I know that initiation is a one-time deal, and unless one
has voyaged to the land of the ancestors, one has failed and
will never be ‘banzi’. Other than that, iboga is really an annual,
ten-day religious ceremony where the congregation only sips
minute amounts of ‘automatique’, the iboga brew…
Can anyone else confirm this? Do Ngangas and musicians go through
anything further than the initiation? I have heard that some people
(civilians as it were) do the larger doses on a more ongoing basis.
My preference is for people to undergo their experience
as part of a small group comprised of strangers, as opposed
to friends. To share this experience with strangers is very powerful.
As only a stranger can represent the rest of humanity. It is as though
all of mankind, thru this stranger, has beared witness to your
rebirth and then you realize that you are also bearing witness in return…
Nice idea.
There are other such things that can sanctify, intensify and heck,
I’ll say it, beautify one’s ibo experience. We need to make this list
a collective shamanistic-cartographic endeavor….
Also good to do.
About the Pygmy music you listen to-are these recordings
of Baka Pygmies? I have 2 cds, “Spirit of the Forest” and
“Heart of the Forest” by Martin Cradick…
‘Heart’ is pure pygmy music while ‘Spirit’ is Martin jamming
with them…. very cool stuff indeed….
I have ‘Heart’ and like it; so far have listened mostly to
Turnbull’s recordings of Mbuti, and Ba-benzele also sounds
good. These two would make a good addition to ‘Heart’:
SFCD 40401 MBUTI PYGMIES OF THE ITURI RAINFOREST (SMITHSONIAN/FOLKWAYS,1992)
(merges both of Turnbull’s original releases)
CD 5107 AFRICA : THE BA-BENZELE PYGMIES (ROUNDER,1998)
Just scored ‘Bayaka’ (out of print) on ebay yesterday, so
am looking forward to that. There are big similarities between
all the Pygmy recordings I’ve heard, no matter what the group.
Here’s a big list of recordings of Pygmies:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/fbeat/africa/08-dengu/08102.html
Bill
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 6, 2004 at 2:29:59 PM EST
To: “Ibogaine Mindvox” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have to say I think your post was a bit strong, really, Laurent. Shamen
the world over have for millenia battled (some not so hard!) with the
tendency to create a “cult of the individual” from their work. And, frankly,
posts like yours only reinforces this tendency. The notion of the “great
healer” is a strong ego archetype and one with only limited real use in the
work itself. What starts out as a healing gift can easily soon become simply
a milieu for self-agrandisement. No one has exclusive rights over iboga,
neither corporations nor ethnic or religious groups. I’m sure there a plenty
of pygmy groups who complain that the Fang and Missoko tribespeople are
inadequate to become Bwiti, for instance. Who’s to say how and where iboga
should be eaten.
The drug is strongly astral in nature, and has thus direct connection with
the formative, primal state of existence from which our own conscious
experience of reality descends. Meaning, roughly, that it can manifest
pretty much according to its own agenda when, where, and unto whom it wants.
In addition to this, the hardship of African initiations might be considered
necessary for humans from certain cultural and racial backgrounds, but I
can’t imagine this is so for everyone.
Iboga is a self-liberating drug and it is not necessary to use it in ritual
context. It’s beyond all that
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root is
best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming at
you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for us…
that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying to
pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m sorry but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not
following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can take
iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic harley and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while you’re at
it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You just got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat
yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and eat
iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the
future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug( the best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
From: “GanjaCat” <ganjacat@ganjacat.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine maps
Date: January 6, 2004 at 6:47:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Tony from Tony’s’ Hemp Corner in London certainly used to sell the HCL
just over two years ago. Now? Who knows.
^..^<
—–Original Message—–
From: adam gur [mailto:adamg@013.net.il]
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 8:50 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine maps
A more sensible question is, where can I get ibogaine
in the U.K.?
Cheers
David
Actually, I heard of a source in London that sells HCL for 50 pounds per
grm, which is the cheapest
price I’ve heard for HCL… I’ll post down the info, once I get in touch
with the person who was
telling me about this…. anybody else heard about this….??? Don’t be
shy
now….
Adam
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: [ibogaine] Planteur -Nick- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 6, 2004 at 12:44:10 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Salut planteur,
Yes in fact like I said, the little that I tried was extremely bitter and brought back memories
from my initiation in Cameroon. So I don’t think I’m going to have a problem with this.
If you wish to send me a sample, I’ll be glad to make comparisons and post the results… If you sell
better rootbark, at a reasonable price, I would be interested in doing business with you.
I must say though that Jean Claude has been honorable in our transactions, so I’d want for people to know that.
I don’t understand why some of your friends would buy from him in the first place.
all the best,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: iboga_planteur
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 5:35 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] -Nick- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Adam are you sure what you got from Jean Claude is
Iboga, some of my friends bought from him, it wasn’t Iboga, it looked like it and tasted like it though, did you try it? just a spoon should be enough to make you feel alert and focused. test it please.
—–Message d’origine—–
De : adam gur [mailto:adamg@013.net.il]
Envoyé : lundi 5 janvier 2004 15:11
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : [ibogaine] -Nick- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Nick old man!!!
You went thru that stuff as though it was cornflakes…
You left them stumped you know that..? They gave you a frigging
bowl and you just gobbled it up and a then few glasses and you
downed those as well… all within the first *#@! hour!!!!
They never had someone pull a stunt like that, let alone a white guy…
Of course, you left the galaxy for about a week and you didn’t know
any of us when you came back, for over a day you didn’t even know
your own name… I’ll never forget that, looking at you and seeing
someone who’s just landed back on earth and is waiting to pick up
his identity….
Those were the good ol’ days.. ok, maybe not….
Btw, I heard that one can take rootbark rectally… I presume it’s not the
pieces and bits but some kind of enemaic concoction… on one hand, this
apparently bypasses the liver but it’s supposedly more powerful and no
nausea nor throwing up…
Any recipe you can impart?
peace,
A-
p.s. I hope this is cool, I’m posting a very small jpg from our first night…. I’m the one at the
far end…
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
>
> Hi Adam,
>
> I recall well being in the back of that temple/shack in the Cameroun with
> you a few years ago! It is indeed a hideous experience to have to eat the
> stuff raw, and, imo, an unnecessary one.
>
> The following recipe, pasted below, for an alcohol-water extraction I’ve
> used a few times on myself and others and it’s always given great results.
> The key to avoiding nausea is to keep straining off the liquid from the
> sediment. And, of course, to shout “bandji” before drinking it!
>
> all the best
>
> Nick
>
> Put the rootbark into a large clean jar and add approx half a 70cl bottle of
> vodka, two cups of red wine and the juice of a lemon. Some users like to
> also add a half-teaspoon of vinegar.
> Shake vigorously and then leave to stand for one week, shaking occasionally.
>
> After one week has passed, empty the contents into a bowl or pan and place
> gently over boiling water. DO NOT DO THIS CLOSE TO A NAKED FLAME AS ALCOHOL
> IS HIGHLY FLAMMABLE. ENSURE THE AREA IS WELL VENTILATED.
>
> Alcohol boils at around 80 degrees centigrade, (as opposed to water which
> boils at 100). When the alcohol has boiled gently away, remove the bowl and
> strain the contents through cloth. (The solid that remains should no longer
> have the bitter taste it did prior to beginning the extraction. If it does,
> mix everything back together and return it to the jar for another week. Then
> repeat the above.)
>
> Assuming that the solid is not now distinctly bitter, discard it and allow
> the liquid that remains after straining to stand for about 12 hours.
>
> The extract is now ready for consumption. For details on administration,
> obtain medical approval and consult one of the protocols on our treatment
> page.
>
> Storage – It is recommended you consume the extract within a few days of
> making it. However, if necessary, it can be stored for about 2 – 3 weeks in
> a domestic refrigerator. After this period it will begin to brew, and the
> composition will be altered. Smelling the extract will tell you if it’s
> started to deteriorate.
>
>
>
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 6, 2004 at 12:23:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
I wonder if it is possible to download the many lives of
experience that the Bwiti have with iboga in a single
initiation? Or to make a judgement about what it’s about.
hi Bill,
I think a person could download no more than his or her
own ibo experience… and that’s more than plenty in itself.
The collective body of Bwiti experience only exists in the realm
of mental constructs; it cannot reside with a person nor conveyed
to another. You can touch a tree but not a forest.
Passing judgement on it would therefore be nonsensical. The same
goes for cultural, traditional and religious structures and beliefs.
Knowledge, on the other hand, is a free-for-all; it is only as valid
as it is proffered, assimilated and cross-pollinated.
My one contestation is that the Bwitis are not iboga’s custodians.
Nor the medical profession its’ dispensers.
I like the part of ‘engaging in a collective process’– but I
wasn’t aware of the bwiti’s collective shamanism. How so?
I know that initiation is a one-time deal, and unless one
has voyaged to the land of the ancestors, one has failed and
will never be ‘banzi’. Other than that, iboga is really an annual,
ten-day religious ceremony where the congregation only sips
minute amounts of ‘automatique’, the iboga brew…
My preference is for people to undergo their experience
as part of a small group comprised of strangers, as opposed
to friends. To share this experience with strangers is very powerful.
As only a stranger can represent the rest of humanity. It is as though
all of mankind, thru this stranger, has beared witness to your
rebirth and then you realize that you are also bearing witness in return…
I managed recently to bring together such a group. One close friend
was very relunctant to experience this with these unknown others, but
I managed to convey this point and even though the rootbark was
almost entirely alkaloid-free, the experience of participating in this,
vomitting and all, with strangers, was something he still cherishes…
There are other such things that can sanctify, intensify and heck,
I’ll say it, beautify one’s ibo experience. We need to make this list
a collective shamanistic-cartographic endeavor….
About the Pygmy music you listen to-are these recordings
of Baka Pygmies? I have 2 cds, “Spirit of the Forest” and
“Heart of the Forest” by Martin Cradick…
‘Heart’ is pure pygmy music while ‘Spirit’ is Martin jamming
with them…. very cool stuff indeed….
all the best,
Adam
It seems like one underlying difference here is between
collective and individual shamanism. What interests me
about the collective shamanism of the Bwiti is the notion
that a group of people might come to a deeper understanding
of a sacrament than a shaman working alone or with isolated
teachers. That understanding would require some translation
from one culture to another, and even within a culture may
take more time to convey than a single initiation.
One thing that might make translation more difficult is that
the individualism of our society (finding its low point in
consumerism) encourages us to take things home for ourselves
rather than engage in a collective process.
This doesn’t invalidate anything that one might learn on one’s
own, nor is it to say that what comes from such a group
should be accepted uncritically.
It took me over a year of listening to Pygmy music regularly
before the collective nature of it began making sense. At first
it was almost like an interesting noise that I couldn’t take
for long at a time. Now it seems like almost a purer form of
Bwiti music than the actual Bwiti music I happen to have. This
makes some sense in that the Bwiti credit the Pygmies with
giving them iboga, and Pygmy culture seems to have been constant
since at least as long ago as the ancient Egyptians.
Bill Ross
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Pagine Patrick Kroupa are you still alive?
Date: January 5, 2004 at 10:20:24 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I say god smiles upon him yet again, he wins a couple of lotteries, and buys
me a life of security and leazure, not to mention pays off a bunch of
crooked politicians to either reform the drug laws, or do away with them all
together.
Death will never come for Patrick, as I think it’ll get lost on the way
to even trying to find ol’ Patrick Kroupa.
Or something.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: <gboy@hush.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Pagine Patrick Kroupa are you still alive?
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA1
$1000 says he makes it through 2004 and bites it first quarter of 2005
Violent death not a OD.
.g
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:13:18 -0800 Vector Vector
<vector620022002@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Patrick! I wanted to congratulate you, you’ve made the rotten.com
deadpool! 🙂
http://deadpool.rotten.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?n=patrick+kroupa
Taking side bets now, will Patrick get killed violently, or OD?
How
much time does he have left?
Just kidding, but this is too funny 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
.:vector:.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
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From: <gboy@hush.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Pagine Patrick Kroupa are you still alive?
Date: January 5, 2004 at 8:42:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
Hash: SHA1
$1000 says he makes it through 2004 and bites it first quarter of 2005
Violent death not a OD.
.g
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:13:18 -0800 Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Patrick! I wanted to congratulate you, you’ve made the rotten.com
deadpool! 🙂
http://deadpool.rotten.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?n=patrick+kroupa
Taking side bets now, will Patrick get killed violently, or OD?
How
much time does he have left?
Just kidding, but this is too funny 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
.:vector:.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Pagine Patrick Kroupa are you still alive?
Date: January 5, 2004 at 8:13:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick! I wanted to congratulate you, you’ve made the rotten.com
deadpool! 🙂
http://deadpool.rotten.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?n=patrick+kroupa
Taking side bets now, will Patrick get killed violently, or OD? How
much time does he have left?
Just kidding, but this is too funny 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
.:vector:.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker – Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 5, 2004 at 2:06:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
I wonder if it is possible to download the many lives of
experience that the Bwiti have with iboga in a single
initiation? Or to make a judgement about what it’s about.
It seems like one underlying difference here is between
collective and individual shamanism. What interests me
about the collective shamanism of the Bwiti is the notion
that a group of people might come to a deeper understanding
of a sacrament than a shaman working alone or with isolated
teachers. That understanding would require some translation
from one culture to another, and even within a culture may
take more time to convey than a single initiation.
One thing that might make translation more difficult is that
the individualism of our society (finding its low point in
consumerism) encourages us to take things home for ourselves
rather than engage in a collective process.
This doesn’t invalidate anything that one might learn on one’s
own, nor is it to say that what comes from such a group
should be accepted uncritically.
It took me over a year of listening to Pygmy music regularly
before the collective nature of it began making sense. At first
it was almost like an interesting noise that I couldn’t take
for long at a time. Now it seems like almost a purer form of
Bwiti music than the actual Bwiti music I happen to have. This
makes some sense in that the Bwiti credit the Pygmies with
giving them iboga, and Pygmy culture seems to have been constant
since at least as long ago as the ancient Egyptians.
Bill Ross
From: “iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] -Nick- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 5, 2004 at 10:35:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Adam are you sure what you got from Jean Claude is
Iboga, some of my friends bought from him, it wasn’t Iboga, it looked like it and tasted like it though, did you try it? just a spoon should be enough to make you feel alert and focused. test it please.
—–Message d’origine—–
De : adam gur [mailto:adamg@013.net.il]
Envoyé : lundi 5 janvier 2004 15:11
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : [ibogaine] -Nick- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Nick old man!!!
You went thru that stuff as though it was cornflakes…
You left them stumped you know that..? They gave you a frigging
bowl and you just gobbled it up and a then few glasses and you
downed those as well… all within the first *#@! hour!!!!
They never had someone pull a stunt like that, let alone a white guy…
Of course, you left the galaxy for about a week and you didn’t know
any of us when you came back, for over a day you didn’t even know
your own name… I’ll never forget that, looking at you and seeing
someone who’s just landed back on earth and is waiting to pick up
his identity….
Those were the good ol’ days.. ok, maybe not….
Btw, I heard that one can take rootbark rectally… I presume it’s not the
pieces and bits but some kind of enemaic concoction… on one hand, this
apparently bypasses the liver but it’s supposedly more powerful and no
nausea nor throwing up…
Any recipe you can impart?
peace,
A-
p.s. I hope this is cool, I’m posting a very small jpg from our first night…. I’m the one at the
far end…
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
>
> Hi Adam,
>
> I recall well being in the back of that temple/shack in the Cameroun with
> you a few years ago! It is indeed a hideous experience to have to eat the
> stuff raw, and, imo, an unnecessary one.
>
> The following recipe, pasted below, for an alcohol-water extraction I’ve
> used a few times on myself and others and it’s always given great results.
> The key to avoiding nausea is to keep straining off the liquid from the
> sediment. And, of course, to shout “bandji” before drinking it!
>
> all the best
>
> Nick
>
> Put the rootbark into a large clean jar and add approx half a 70cl bottle of
> vodka, two cups of red wine and the juice of a lemon. Some users like to
> also add a half-teaspoon of vinegar.
> Shake vigorously and then leave to stand for one week, shaking occasionally.
>
> After one week has passed, empty the contents into a bowl or pan and place
> gently over boiling water. DO NOT DO THIS CLOSE TO A NAKED FLAME AS ALCOHOL
> IS HIGHLY FLAMMABLE. ENSURE THE AREA IS WELL VENTILATED.
>
> Alcohol boils at around 80 degrees centigrade, (as opposed to water which
> boils at 100). When the alcohol has boiled gently away, remove the bowl and
> strain the contents through cloth. (The solid that remains should no longer
> have the bitter taste it did prior to beginning the extraction. If it does,
> mix everything back together and return it to the jar for another week. Then
> repeat the above.)
>
> Assuming that the solid is not now distinctly bitter, discard it and allow
> the liquid that remains after straining to stand for about 12 hours.
>
> The extract is now ready for consumption. For details on administration,
> obtain medical approval and consult one of the protocols on our treatment
> page.
>
> Storage – It is recommended you consume the extract within a few days of
> making it. However, if necessary, it can be stored for about 2 – 3 weeks in
> a domestic refrigerator. After this period it will begin to brew, and the
> composition will be altered. Smelling the extract will tell you if it’s
> started to deteriorate.
>
>
>
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: [ibogaine] -Nick- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 5, 2004 at 9:10:57 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick old man!!!
You went thru that stuff as though it was cornflakes…
You left them stumped you know that..? They gave you a frigging
bowl and you just gobbled it up and a then few glasses and you
downed those as well… all within the first *#@! hour!!!!
They never had someone pull a stunt like that, let alone a white guy…
Of course, you left the galaxy for about a week and you didn’t know
any of us when you came back, for over a day you didn’t even know
your own name… I’ll never forget that, looking at you and seeing
someone who’s just landed back on earth and is waiting to pick up
his identity….
Those were the good ol’ days.. ok, maybe not….
Btw, I heard that one can take rootbark rectally… I presume it’s not the
pieces and bits but some kind of enemaic concoction… on one hand, this
apparently bypasses the liver but it’s supposedly more powerful and no
nausea nor throwing up…
Any recipe you can impart?
peace,
A-
p.s. I hope this is cool, I’m posting a very small jpg from our first night…. I’m the one at the
far end…
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
>
> Hi Adam,
>
> I recall well being in the back of that temple/shack in the Cameroun with
> you a few years ago! It is indeed a hideous experience to have to eat the
> stuff raw, and, imo, an unnecessary one.
>
> The following recipe, pasted below, for an alcohol-water extraction I’ve
> used a few times on myself and others and it’s always given great results.
> The key to avoiding nausea is to keep straining off the liquid from the
> sediment. And, of course, to shout “bandji” before drinking it!
>
> all the best
>
> Nick
>
> Put the rootbark into a large clean jar and add approx half a 70cl bottle of
> vodka, two cups of red wine and the juice of a lemon. Some users like to
> also add a half-teaspoon of vinegar.
> Shake vigorously and then leave to stand for one week, shaking occasionally.
>
> After one week has passed, empty the contents into a bowl or pan and place
> gently over boiling water. DO NOT DO THIS CLOSE TO A NAKED FLAME AS ALCOHOL
> IS HIGHLY FLAMMABLE. ENSURE THE AREA IS WELL VENTILATED.
>
> Alcohol boils at around 80 degrees centigrade, (as opposed to water which
> boils at 100). When the alcohol has boiled gently away, remove the bowl and
> strain the contents through cloth. (The solid that remains should no longer
> have the bitter taste it did prior to beginning the extraction. If it does,
> mix everything back together and return it to the jar for another week. Then
> repeat the above.)
>
> Assuming that the solid is not now distinctly bitter, discard it and allow
> the liquid that remains after straining to stand for about 12 hours.
>
> The extract is now ready for consumption. For details on administration,
> obtain medical approval and consult one of the protocols on our treatment
> page.
>
> Storage – It is recommended you consume the extract within a few days of
> making it. However, if necessary, it can be stored for about 2 – 3 weeks in
> a domestic refrigerator. After this period it will begin to brew, and the
> composition will be altered. Smelling the extract will tell you if it’s
> started to deteriorate.
>
>
>
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: [ibogaine] -Laurent- Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 5, 2004 at 8:33:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Salut Laurent,
First of all, I love your photos man…
I guess you didn’t understand the part where I’ve already
been initiated by the Bwiti- in Cameroun alas, not Gabon.
And yes I am a shaman, I live in Israel, if I throw a stone
from my balcony, I hit at least two shamans and one meshuganah.
We’re all in this together, Laurent, we’re all shamans, we’re all bullshit
artists, we’re all spirit… same difference..
And fresh iboga does taste like montezuma’s revenge served cold.
It’s the world’s greatest tough-love remedy; one taste and you know,
this is fuckin’ personal. And as I was saying, I think fresh root is best,
better than HCl or any extract, I just really wish I could stomach it.
But if I can’t, I’m supposed to just walk away?
From your email I realize you are a decent person, one with dignity.
But I don’t like the part where you say, ‘they’ve been doing this for
centuries
and they have the knowledge’. They have customs and beliefs and purposes
that I do not require. The music was amazing though.
Knowledge is one hot potato – catch it, toss it, there’s more coming at you.
Try and pocket it and you’re going to do some funky dancing for us… that’s
where’s ‘pants on fire’ comes from. I’m not saying they are trying to pocket
the
knowledge but come on, this gift is for all of humanity and I’m sorry but
I’ll be glad to hear whatever anyone wishes to impart but I’m not following
anyone anywhere… I’m not asking for permission, supplication or
directions; I
don’t want to go see the ancestors, I’m my own ancestor. You can take iboga
with
all the trepidation in the world, or you can hop on your cosmic harley and
rip a tear
thru a couple of dimensions. Ruffle a few angel feathers while you’re at it.
That’s all just my way of saying, iboga is ‘self-actualization’ and you
can’t accomplish
that by prostrating yourself and requesting this liberation from, or thru,
others.
Btw, Iboga the teacher-spirit has a great sense of humor too. You just got
to have
your wits about you.
peace,
Adam
—– Original Message —–
From: “laurent sazy” <laurentsazy@free.fr>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat iboga
roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and eat iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug( the best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nicks22@onetel.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 4, 2004 at 6:44:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 2:30 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
….hey,
I just got a really good batch of rootbark, some 400gms or so, from Jean
Claude (Cameroon)
and a few seeds as well… at 700euros/kilo it is by far the best pricing
for rootbark out there…
Problem is, there’s no way I can eat this stuff… I’ve had the real-real
stuff in Cameroon, the kind
that goes active in your mouth, releasing fumes and the four horses of the
Apocalypse… and I’m
extremely grateful for that experience, as I’m dead-sure I could not have
pulled it off had I had
previous ibo experiences… And since then, I’ve had HCl and Indra on a
number of occasions,
and that requires a few self-inflicted face slaps to step up to the
plate…
unless it’s your maiden
voyage, in which case, bon fuckin’ voyage, ya lucky tourist
bastard….(don’t waste your 1 free-pass)
It’s been my contention however that HCl and Indra, by lacking the
bulk/fiber, don’t match up to the
raw stuff… while I don’t doubt the efficacy of HCl, it doesn’t heat up
your stomach like you swallowed
a steam-engine or something… and I miss that… call me a romantic
fool….
So rootbark, I thought, hey, 20 gms- maybe 40 tops, no big deal, last but
not least on my wishlist…
So some 3 months ago, I got my first batch and I was real happy about the
taste not being anywhere
near as foul, in fact, I was ecstatic about it… But that was extremely
deceptive, as every spoonful just
got exponentially nastier… and wouldn’t you know it, that batch was
alkaloid-free, so no take-off, not
even trailers….
Now this batch is much better… how do I know..? Well, it’s *#@! times
nastier than the first one…
How nasty? After chewing on a small piece (that I let soak in water) for
like 3 secs , I had to brush
my tongue twice, especially the sides… it just permeated my head…
So I’m hoping to do some home-made extract with vinegar/alcohol or
whatever,
because otherwise it’s
going to just sit there and mock me… Ideally, I would like to just
reduce
it by half or so, take the stinger
out of it,. and still be left with some bulk if possible…
Jenks, if you’re reading this, a multitude of thanks for that link and the
body of work that you’ve
put into puzzlepiece.org…. I’m probably going to have a few questions as
I’ve never been even
remotely interested in ‘extraction’ or chemistry for that matter, but
first
I’ll cover the various other
articles on the site…
I hope 400 gms of good rootbark can produce enough base-extract, or
whatever
I’m supposed to call it..
all the best,
Adam Gur
P.S. Can anyone name the poem from the following- been hunting this for
years;
“…I’ve been a beast, at the feast, before I became a man…” …tia….
Hi Adam,
I recall well being in the back of that temple/shack in the Cameroun with
you a few years ago! It is indeed a hideous experience to have to eat the
stuff raw, and, imo, an unnecessary one.
The following recipe, pasted below, for an alcohol-water extraction I’ve
used a few times on myself and others and it’s always given great results.
The key to avoiding nausea is to keep straining off the liquid from the
sediment. And, of course, to shout “bandji” before drinking it!
all the best
Nick
Put the rootbark into a large clean jar and add approx half a 70cl bottle of
vodka, two cups of red wine and the juice of a lemon. Some users like to
also add a half-teaspoon of vinegar.
Shake vigorously and then leave to stand for one week, shaking occasionally.
After one week has passed, empty the contents into a bowl or pan and place
gently over boiling water. DO NOT DO THIS CLOSE TO A NAKED FLAME AS ALCOHOL
IS HIGHLY FLAMMABLE. ENSURE THE AREA IS WELL VENTILATED.
Alcohol boils at around 80 degrees centigrade, (as opposed to water which
boils at 100). When the alcohol has boiled gently away, remove the bowl and
strain the contents through cloth. (The solid that remains should no longer
have the bitter taste it did prior to beginning the extraction. If it does,
mix everything back together and return it to the jar for another week. Then
repeat the above.)
Assuming that the solid is not now distinctly bitter, discard it and allow
the liquid that remains after straining to stand for about 12 hours.
The extract is now ready for consumption. For details on administration,
obtain medical approval and consult one of the protocols on our treatment
page.
Storage – It is recommended you consume the extract within a few days of
making it. However, if necessary, it can be stored for about 2 – 3 weeks in
a domestic refrigerator. After this period it will begin to brew, and the
composition will be altered. Smelling the extract will tell you if it’s
started to deteriorate.
From: “iboga_planteur” <iboga_planteur@yahoo.fr>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 4, 2004 at 4:50:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Are you sure your stuff is Iboga, what I’ve heard from Jean Claude in
Cameroon is not really good!
—–Message d’origine—–
De : adam gur [mailto:adamg@013.net.il]
Envoyé : dimanche 4 janvier 2004 03:31
À : ibogaine@mindvox.com
Objet : [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
….hey,
I just got a really good batch of rootbark, some 400gms or so, from Jean
Claude (Cameroon)
and a few seeds as well… at 700euros/kilo it is by far the best pricing
for rootbark out there…
Problem is, there’s no way I can eat this stuff… I’ve had the real-real
stuff in Cameroon, the kind
that goes active in your mouth, releasing fumes and the four horses of the
Apocalypse… and I’m
extremely grateful for that experience, as I’m dead-sure I could not have
pulled it off had I had
previous ibo experiences… And since then, I’ve had HCl and Indra on a
number of occasions,
and that requires a few self-inflicted face slaps to step up to the plate…
unless it’s your maiden
voyage, in which case, bon fuckin’ voyage, ya lucky tourist
bastard….(don’t waste your 1 free-pass)
It’s been my contention however that HCl and Indra, by lacking the
bulk/fiber, don’t match up to the
raw stuff… while I don’t doubt the efficacy of HCl, it doesn’t heat up
your stomach like you swallowed
a steam-engine or something… and I miss that… call me a romantic
fool….
So rootbark, I thought, hey, 20 gms- maybe 40 tops, no big deal, last but
not least on my wishlist…
So some 3 months ago, I got my first batch and I was real happy about the
taste not being anywhere
near as foul, in fact, I was ecstatic about it… But that was extremely
deceptive, as every spoonful just
got exponentially nastier… and wouldn’t you know it, that batch was
alkaloid-free, so no take-off, not
even trailers….
Now this batch is much better… how do I know..? Well, it’s *#@! times
nastier than the first one…
How nasty? After chewing on a small piece (that I let soak in water) for
like 3 secs , I had to brush
my tongue twice, especially the sides… it just permeated my head…
So I’m hoping to do some home-made extract with vinegar/alcohol or whatever,
because otherwise it’s
going to just sit there and mock me… Ideally, I would like to just reduce
it by half or so, take the stinger
out of it,. and still be left with some bulk if possible…
Jenks, if you’re reading this, a multitude of thanks for that link and the
body of work that you’ve
put into puzzlepiece.org…. I’m probably going to have a few questions as
I’ve never been even
remotely interested in ‘extraction’ or chemistry for that matter, but first
I’ll cover the various other
articles on the site…
I hope 400 gms of good rootbark can produce enough base-extract, or whatever
I’m supposed to call it..
all the best,
Adam Gur
P.S. Can anyone name the poem from the following- been hunting this for
years;
“…I’ve been a beast, at the feast, before I became a man…” …tia….
From: laurent sazy <laurentsazy@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 4, 2004 at 6:52:38 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On 4/01/04 3:30, “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il> wrote:
….hey,
I just got a really good batch of rootbark, some 400gms or so, from Jean
Claude (Cameroon)
and a few seeds as well… at 700euros/kilo it is by far the best pricing
for rootbark out there…
Problem is, there’s no way I can eat this stuff… I’ve had the real-real
stuff in Cameroon, the kind
that goes active in your mouth, releasing fumes and the four horses of the
Apocalypse… and I’m
extremely grateful for that experience, as I’m dead-sure I could not have
pulled it off had I had
previous ibo experiences… And since then, I’ve had HCl and Indra on a
number of occasions,
and that requires a few self-inflicted face slaps to step up to the plate…
unless it’s your maiden
voyage, in which case, bon fuckin’ voyage, ya lucky tourist
bastard….(don’t waste your 1 free-pass)
It’s been my contention however that HCl and Indra, by lacking the
bulk/fiber, don’t match up to the
raw stuff… while I don’t doubt the efficacy of HCl, it doesn’t heat up
your stomach like you swallowed
a steam-engine or something… and I miss that… call me a romantic
fool….
So rootbark, I thought, hey, 20 gms- maybe 40 tops, no big deal, last but
not least on my wishlist…
So some 3 months ago, I got my first batch and I was real happy about the
taste not being anywhere
near as foul, in fact, I was ecstatic about it… But that was extremely
deceptive, as every spoonful just
got exponentially nastier… and wouldn’t you know it, that batch was
alkaloid-free, so no take-off, not
even trailers….
Now this batch is much better… how do I know..? Well, it’s *#@! times
nastier than the first one…
How nasty? After chewing on a small piece (that I let soak in water) for
like 3 secs , I had to brush
my tongue twice, especially the sides… it just permeated my head…
So I’m hoping to do some home-made extract with vinegar/alcohol or whatever,
because otherwise it’s
going to just sit there and mock me… Ideally, I would like to just reduce
it by half or so, take the stinger
out of it,. and still be left with some bulk if possible…
Jenks, if you’re reading this, a multitude of thanks for that link and the
body of work that you’ve
put into puzzlepiece.org…. I’m probably going to have a few questions as
I’ve never been even
remotely interested in ‘extraction’ or chemistry for that matter, but first
I’ll cover the various other
articles on the site…
I hope 400 gms of good rootbark can produce enough base-extract, or whatever
I’m supposed to call it..
all the best,
Adam Gur
P.S. Can anyone name the poem from the following- been hunting this for
years;
“…I’ve been a beast, at the feast, before I became a man…” …tia….
My Friend,
Very good, you find some iboga roots . Do you know gabonese eat iboga roots(
fresh bark or dried iboga) like that from centuries and they have the
knowledge. Do you know how iboga works?. Are you a shaman to eat yourself
iboga?
Please, if you want to take iboga, why you don’t go to Gabon and eat iboga
in a ritual Bwiti? It is 100% better and extraordinary and shamans will
teach you a lot.
Taking iboga in your room with friends will discredit iboga in the future
and we tried to do opposite. It is not a game. Iboga is a drug( the best
drug) but not a game to be out of order. If taste is nasty, it is
necessary… You have a lot to learn my friend………
I wish you a good time with your homemade extract.
Laurent / kombo KA
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: [ibogaine] rootbark & homemade extract
Date: January 3, 2004 at 9:30:45 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
….hey,
I just got a really good batch of rootbark, some 400gms or so, from Jean
Claude (Cameroon)
and a few seeds as well… at 700euros/kilo it is by far the best pricing
for rootbark out there…
Problem is, there’s no way I can eat this stuff… I’ve had the real-real
stuff in Cameroon, the kind
that goes active in your mouth, releasing fumes and the four horses of the
Apocalypse… and I’m
extremely grateful for that experience, as I’m dead-sure I could not have
pulled it off had I had
previous ibo experiences… And since then, I’ve had HCl and Indra on a
number of occasions,
and that requires a few self-inflicted face slaps to step up to the plate…
unless it’s your maiden
voyage, in which case, bon fuckin’ voyage, ya lucky tourist
bastard….(don’t waste your 1 free-pass)
It’s been my contention however that HCl and Indra, by lacking the
bulk/fiber, don’t match up to the
raw stuff… while I don’t doubt the efficacy of HCl, it doesn’t heat up
your stomach like you swallowed
a steam-engine or something… and I miss that… call me a romantic
fool….
So rootbark, I thought, hey, 20 gms- maybe 40 tops, no big deal, last but
not least on my wishlist…
So some 3 months ago, I got my first batch and I was real happy about the
taste not being anywhere
near as foul, in fact, I was ecstatic about it… But that was extremely
deceptive, as every spoonful just
got exponentially nastier… and wouldn’t you know it, that batch was
alkaloid-free, so no take-off, not
even trailers….
Now this batch is much better… how do I know..? Well, it’s *#@! times
nastier than the first one…
How nasty? After chewing on a small piece (that I let soak in water) for
like 3 secs , I had to brush
my tongue twice, especially the sides… it just permeated my head…
So I’m hoping to do some home-made extract with vinegar/alcohol or whatever,
because otherwise it’s
going to just sit there and mock me… Ideally, I would like to just reduce
it by half or so, take the stinger
out of it,. and still be left with some bulk if possible…
Jenks, if you’re reading this, a multitude of thanks for that link and the
body of work that you’ve
put into puzzlepiece.org…. I’m probably going to have a few questions as
I’ve never been even
remotely interested in ‘extraction’ or chemistry for that matter, but first
I’ll cover the various other
articles on the site…
I hope 400 gms of good rootbark can produce enough base-extract, or whatever
I’m supposed to call it..
all the best,
Adam Gur
P.S. Can anyone name the poem from the following- been hunting this for
years;
“…I’ve been a beast, at the feast, before I became a man…” …tia….
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] rats on cocaine
Date: January 3, 2004 at 3:24:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The things people send me.
http://www.apocalypsecartoons.com/roc/ep1/roc1.html
The homepage contains things even stranger than rats on cocaine. I wrote to
the artists suggesting the next story might be cocaine maintained rats on
ibogaine.
Howard
From: “adam gur” <adamg@013.net.il>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine maps
Date: January 3, 2004 at 2:49:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
A more sensible question is, where can I get ibogaine
in the U.K.?
Cheers
David
Actually, I heard of a source in London that sells HCL for 50 pounds per
grm, which is the cheapest
price I’ve heard for HCL… I’ll post down the info, once I get in touch
with the person who was
telling me about this…. anybody else heard about this….??? Don’t be shy
now….
Adam
From: “Kyle Portman-International Man of Mystery” <fforest12@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] shelf life
Date: January 3, 2004 at 6:22:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I heard that the extract that Indra was selling was quite old like 10 to 15 years?( I am not sure if this is true or not)and it was still quite potent…….
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] shelf life
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:12:08 EST
Manufacturers indicate a three year shelf life for ibogaine but, as the
article stipulates that is the shelf life they are willing to stipulate for legal
reasons of responsibility. Most drugs will last longer if kept refrigerated,
though dry is a must and ibogaine does not like light so keep in a dark bottle,
the same as many vitamins you buy. Ibogaine HCl is much more stable than
ibogaine base and I have seen ibogaine HCl with little subjective lose of potency
fifteen years after production. However, considering all of the variables
involved, you would simply have to evaluate any given product at any given time.
Howard
In a message dated 1/1/04 8:25:33 PM, gammalyte9000@yahoo.com writes:
>Good article.
>
>which leads me to ask, what is the shelf life of ibogaine hcl?
>
>should it be kept fridgerated?
>
>frozen?
>
>out of direct light?
>
>inquiring minds vant to know.
_________________________________________________________________
Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine maps
Date: January 2, 2004 at 11:54:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cheers David!
Thanks!
You made me smile and even chuckle outloud!
I sincerely hope that was the reaction you were going for!
Peace, Callie
From: David Varossi <dvarossi@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine maps
Date: January 2, 2004 at 9:29:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@Mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Wanted to say hi, read the interesting article in MAPS
and wound up here.
Still haven’t the slightest idea where ‘here’ is, I
understand these are elists but it seems like as good
a time as any to ask what is this place? Your alexa
most visited cross site list is: 2600 magazine, LOD
com, Phonelosers.org, takedown.com, chaos computer
club, Wired magazine, the l0pht (which goes to @stake
security) and the EFF site.
Reading the site, I don’t understand any of it. Having
a great time at it too, thanks!
This is one of the greatest things I’ve ever read,
still don’t understand it but I love it. I think
that’s what I’m saying with my whole message.
http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=Trajectories
Now obviously, this explains why Gestalt is mostly
correct, EMDR works some of the time, and Primal
Therapy has the right idea. Schroedinger saw some
light in the darkness, Neitzsche saw darkness in the
light, and Hitler, Jesus, and Max Planck discussed it
over tea one day, with the Mad Hatter acting as an
independent peer-review committee, and Dostoyevsky
taking down the minutes — but he wasn’t paying
attention a lotta the time; this is okay ‘cuz Godel
had a parabolic mic aimed at the whole-entire
scenario. Also, furthermore, this is only accurate on
every other Tuesday, of leap-years, unless Peter
Melchior manages to reintegrate John Lilly, and
Timothy Leary gives him some therapy.
Because sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, unless
Freud didn’t say that, uhm, what did he say again, oh
yeah, “you people are all basically just totally
fucked up. Now, who took my cocaine, and where the
hell did my niece go… I’d call Sherlock Holmes to
figure this out, but he’s off somewhere banging-up
speedballs. He’s repressed anyway, and really needs to
get laid.” Of course, this is only metaphorically a
parable, because Sherlock Holmes was a real person,
whereas Freud was a strung-out champion of law and
order, only in books, and on the astral planes.
But anyway, as anyone can see this only works on the
primary and secondary levels of quaternary dualism,
unless it doesn’t. Christian Science, the Koran,
Buddhism, Shivaism, Scientology, and the Muslims, are
seeing at least part of the spectrum of possibility,
except when they’re not. But it really doesn’t matter
because Socrates knew it — tho’ he didn’t write it
down — Plato (who was a whiny little fuckhead)
plagiarized it, and Aristotle retrieved and refined
it.
Strings are a good theory, but sometimes Viagra works
better, because as Heisenberg explained, the
Uncertainty Principle doesn’t really start to throb
unless the strange attractor is wearing a mini and
heels, in which case non-linear dynamics will cause
the butterfly with broken wings to nose-dive, this
will make Voltaire depressed a lot of the time; but
ultimately it’s all-good because when Freud dropped
the cigar, Fromm picked it up and re-lit it, Sartre
stuck it in his mouth but never inhaled, and Jung
understood all of it, in its entire totality, some of
the time — even though he didn’t smoke cigars.
Baudelaire and Rimbaud lived it, Shelley kinda flopped
around a lot and drowned, but his wife nailed it;
Byron also nailed a lot of things — lacking a
camcorder and a web site, on occasion he even wrote
some of them down. Tesla and Willhelm Reich had it all
written out in invisible ink on SekRet DocumenTz,
hidden under an orgone accumulator, until THEY, THEM,
and THOSE PEOPLE, ruined everything. Escher took the
remnants and made a moebious-strip out of them. Once
the colors got all smeared, C.S. Lewis and Dr. Seuss
summed it all up in one cohesive whole, understandable
by any child; however, when most adults try to
cross-connect the spirals of rainbows, they just end
up with mud.
Lately though, I’m starting to have a lot of dreams
about sex. This means its time to take a really long
plane-ride. In conclusion, black-lights are pretty
groovy, but somehow — for me anyway — lava-lamps,
just get real old, real fast. The ‘Dead mahn —
Yahhhhhhhh — Uhm, I don’t like the dead; it’s not an
option dude, they’re the Dead Mahn, yahhhhh! — Uhm,
okay, I guess, do you have any Nine Inch Nails?
A more sensible question is, where can I get ibogaine
in the U.K.?
Cheers
David
________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger – Communicate instantly…”Ping”
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] shelf life
Date: January 1, 2004 at 7:12:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Manufacturers indicate a three year shelf life for ibogaine but, as the
article stipulates that is the shelf life they are willing to stipulate for legal
reasons of responsibility. Most drugs will last longer if kept refrigerated,
though dry is a must and ibogaine does not like light so keep in a dark bottle,
the same as many vitamins you buy. Ibogaine HCl is much more stable than
ibogaine base and I have seen ibogaine HCl with little subjective lose of potency
fifteen years after production. However, considering all of the variables
involved, you would simply have to evaluate any given product at any given time.
Howard
In a message dated 1/1/04 8:25:33 PM, gammalyte9000@yahoo.com writes:
Good article.
which leads me to ask, what is the shelf life of ibogaine hcl?
should it be kept fridgerated?
frozen?
out of direct light?
inquiring minds vant to know.
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] shelf life
Date: January 1, 2004 at 5:13:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Good article but I would beg to differ on some medications.
It may have been purely psychological on my part but I have gotten hold of ‘stale’ Valium, Xanax and Soma before from the pharmacy. They have often got stale sitting on my shelf but not too often as those drugs don’t sit untouched on my shelf very long!
Being a nurse I would encourage everyone to use expiration dates as just what they are. It would be better safe than sorry if you have some illness that require cardiovascular meds, anticoagulant therapy or even anti psychotic meds.
Aspirin, Tylenol, laxatives, antacids and such are probably okay as their use is usually not life or death if you miss a dose or take a weakened dose.
Just my two cents!
Happy New Year!
Callie
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] shelf life
Date: January 1, 2004 at 3:25:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Good article.
which leads me to ask, what is the shelf life of ibogaine hcl?
should it be kept fridgerated?
frozen?
out of direct light?
inquiring minds vant to know.
– G A M M A
— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
September 9, 2002
DO MEDICATIONS REALLY EXPIRE?
Try An Experiment With Your Mother-In-Law
By Richard Altschuler
Does the expiration date on a bottle of a medication mean anything? If a
bottle of Tylenol, for example, says something like “Do not use after June
1998,”
and it is August 2002, should you take the Tylenol? Should you discard it?
Can
you get hurt if you take it? Will it simply have lost its potency and do you
no good?
In other words, are drug manufacturers being honest with us when they put an
expiration date on their medications, or is the practice of dating just
another drug industry scam, to get us to buy new medications when the old
ones that
purportedly have “expired” are still perfectly good?
These are the pressing questions I investigated after my mother-in-law
recently said to me, “It doesn’t mean anything,” when I pointed out that the
Tylenol
she was about to take had “expired” 4 years and a few months ago. I was a bit
mocking in my pronouncement — feeling superior that I had noticed the
chemical corpse in her cabinet — but she was equally adamant in her reply,
and is
generally very sage about medical issues.
So I gave her a glass of water with the purportedly “dead” drug, of which she
took 2 capsules for a pain in the upper back. About a half hour later she
reported the pain seemed to have eased up a bit. I said “You could be having
a
placebo effect,” not wanting to simply concede she was right about the drug,
and
also not actually knowing what I was talking about. I was just happy to hear
that her pain had eased, even before we had our evening cocktails and hot tub
dip (we were in “Leisure World,” near Laguna Beach, California, where the hot
tub is bigger than most Manhattan apartments, and “Heaven,” as generally
portrayed, would be raucous by comparison).
Upon my return to NYC and high-speed connection, I immediately scoured the
medical databases and general literature for the answer to my question about
drug expiration labeling. And voila, no sooner than I could say “Screwed
again by
the pharmaceutical industry,” I had my answer. Here are the simple facts:
First, the expiration date, required by law in the United States, beginning
in 1979, specifies only the date the manufacturer guarantees the full potency
and safety of the drug — it does not mean how long the drug is actually
“good”
or safe to use. Second, medical authorities uniformly say it is safe to take
drugs past their expiration date — no matter how “expired” the drugs
purportedly are. Except for possibly the rarest of exceptions, you won’t get
hurt and
you certainly won’t get killed. A contested example of a rare exception is a
case of renal tubular damage purportedly caused by expired tetracycline
(reported by G. W. Frimpter and colleagues in JAMA, 1963;184:111). This
outcome
(disputed by other scientists) was supposedly caused by a chemical
transformation
of the active ingredient. Third, studies show that expired drugs may lose
some
of their potency over time, from as little as 5% or less to 50% or more
(though usually much less than the latter). Even 10 years after the
“expiration
date,” most drugs have a good deal of their original potency. So wisdom
dictates
that if your life does depend on an expired drug, and you must have 100% or
so
of its original strength, you should probably toss it and get a refill, in
accordance with the cliché, “better safe than sorry.” If your life does not
depend on an expired drug — such as that for headache, hay fever, or
menstrual
cramps — take it and see what happens.
One of the largest studies ever conducted that supports the above points
about “expired drug” labeling was done by the US military 15 years ago,
according
to a feature story in the Wall Street Journal (March 29, 2000), reported by
Laurie P. Cohen. The military was sitting on a $1 billion stockpile of drugs
and
facing the daunting process of destroying and replacing its supply every 2 to
3 years, so it began a testing program to see if it could extend the life of
its inventory. The testing, conducted by the US Food and Drug Administration
(FDA), ultimately covered more than 100 drugs, prescription and
over-the-counter. The results showed that about 90% of them were safe and
effective as far as
15 years past their original expiration date.
In light of these results, a former director of the testing program, Francis
Flaherty, said he concluded that expiration dates put on by manufacturers
typically have no bearing on whether a drug is usable for longer. Mr.
Flaherty
noted that a drug maker is required to prove only that a drug is still good
on
whatever expiration date the company chooses to set. The expiration date
doesn’t
mean, or even suggest, that the drug will stop being effective after that,
nor that it will become harmful. “Manufacturers put expiration dates on for
marketing, rather than scientific, reasons,” said Mr. Flaherty, a pharmacist
at
the FDA until his retirement in 1999. “It’s not profitable for them to have
products on a shelf for 10 years. They want turnover.”
The FDA cautioned there isn’t enough evidence from the program, which is
weighted toward drugs used during combat, to conclude most drugs in
consumers’
medicine cabinets are potent beyond the expiration date. Joel Davis, however,
a
former FDA expiration-date compliance chief, said that with a handful of
exceptions — notably nitroglycerin, insulin, and some liquid antibiotics —
most
drugs are probably as durable as those the agency has tested for the
military.
“Most drugs degrade very slowly,” he said. “In all likelihood, you can take a
product you have at home and keep it for many years, especially if it’s in
the
refrigerator.” Consider aspirin. Bayer AG puts 2-year or 3-year dates on
aspirin and says that it should be discarded after that. However, Chris
Allen, a
vice president at the Bayer unit that makes aspirin, said the dating is
“pretty
conservative”; when Bayer has tested 4-year-old aspirin, it remained 100%
effective, he said. So why doesn’t Bayer set a 4-year expiration date?
Because the
company often changes packaging, and it undertakes “continuous improvement
programs,” Mr. Allen said. Each change triggers a need for more
expiration-date
testing, and testing each time for a 4-year life would be impractical. Bayer
has never tested aspirin beyond 4 years, Mr. Allen said. But Jens Carstensen
has. Dr. Carstensen, professor emeritus at the University of Wisconsin’s
pharmacy school, who wrote what is considered the main text on drug
stability, said,
“I did a study of different aspirins, and after 5 years, Bayer was still
excellent. Aspirin, if made correctly, is very stable.
Okay, I concede. My mother-in-law was right, once again. And I was wrong,
once again, and with a wiseacre attitude to boot. Sorry mom. Now I think I’ll
take a swig of the 10-year dead package of Alka Seltzer in my medicine chest
—
to ease the nausea I’m feeling from calculating how many billions of dollars
the pharmaceutical industry bilks out of unknowing consumers every year who
discard perfectly good drugs and buy new ones because they trust the
industry’s
“expiration date labeling.”
Reprinted with permission of Redflagsdaily
2003
Thomas A. M. Kramer, MD, Associate Professor of Psychiatry, University of
Chicago, Chicago, Illinois
Medscape General Medicine 5(3), 2003. İ 2003 Medscape
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