Ibogaine List Archives – 2002-06

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what changed?
Date: June 30, 2002 at 11:58:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is for Kerry not Carrie ūüôā Kerry I don’t know that much about addiction and don’t do any drugs I want to stop doing, I hang at this place because it’s cool as fuck and has real people, not because I need to get off anything. But that’s one of the most stupid questions anyone has ever asked. Is it just me who thinks that? What are 99.99999999999999% of all the most talented and creative artistic people in the world. ON DRUGS AND VERY MESSED UP. Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Shocking. .:vector:. On Sun, 30 June 2002, Carrie Rollins wrote > > > This I’d like to know too! > > -carrie > > — Kerry Dawson wrote: > > > > Patrick everything I know about you is from this > > list, your writing and now reading Mindvox for the > > first time thouroughly, excuse my spelling its very > > late. I don’t know what art is but it’s damn good. > > It’s better then damn good. Why did you end up on > > heroin. You said you’ve chipped since 14, that’s > > more years then anyone I know manages it to get a > > habit at 23? What happened, what changed that drove > > you from where you were to where you went for 8 > > years? > > > > I know it’s none of my business but all of you use > > this list like most people use the rooms and after > > reading Mindvox like I’ve done just now I am very, > > more then curious what happened? When and how did > > you cross the line from in control to out of > > control. I am familiar with how you returned, but > > that part is a blank to me. > > > > Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC > > > > > > > > ——————————— > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what changed?
Date: June 30, 2002 at 11:35:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

why do you ask??

From: Mzzthangg13@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 30, 2002 at 11:23:46 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hi i am karina i am going on 7/11-7/15 to get off `100 mg of methadone i have researched it and talked to the doctor and Howard lotsof….i am ready i live a normal life work, movies have not done heroin but 2 times in12 yrs have been with my husband who is straight for 6 yrs………..i got back on methadone not for heroin it was after my hysterectomy i was taking Demerol then i do not know why i wanted methadone and was buying it off the street..so i have tried to get off before and also i have hep¬† not active…i am ready to get off meth i have been on it this time for 2yrs….i went to last yr inpatient in a hospital they took me off the meth in 3 days but gave me all at once depocote,thorazine,flexaril,clonodine.clonopin,doxepin,nalttrexone,darvocet,zyprexa,seroquil…….i do not remember 1 month i stopped the pills i was taking moms xanax had a seizure and got back on methadone…anyway this is the last hope for me i cannot afford rapid detox the damm us i think has something for withdrawals and is holding back cause these clinics are federal right so it’s all about $$$$they do not care about us the clinics will detox you but i have to work i cannot stay home till feel better you know what i mean sorry i hate them they have something for us and will not give it¬† to us…so ibogaine is it for me thank you karina

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] what changed?
Date: June 30, 2002 at 11:20:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This I’d like to know too!

-carrie

— Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com> wrote:

Patrick everything I know about you is from this
list, your writing and now reading Mindvox for the
first time thouroughly, excuse my spelling its very
late. I don’t know what art is but it’s damn good.
It’s better then damn good. Why did you end up on
heroin. You said you’ve chipped since 14, that’s
more years then anyone I know manages it to get a
habit at 23? What happened, what changed that drove
you from where you were to where you went for 8
years?

I know it’s none of my business but all of you use
this list like most people use the rooms and after
reading Mindvox like I’ve done just now I am very,
more then curious what happened? When and how did
you cross the line from in control to out of
control. I am familiar with how you returned, but
that part is a blank to me.

Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 30, 2002 at 11:10:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Exactly, exactly exactly!

Repeat 1000 times!!! ūüôā

-carrie

where this is NOT the case for many
non-addict speakers, and F,
| does it show. There have been moments at such
events, where I have literally
| felt physically sick observing all the ego-mania
that marches on..

Yeah, Fuck Them mahn, what do they know ’bout
addikshun anywaze. Go do
some Real research, live through that, then run your
mouth.

Patrick

— Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com> wrote:

Valid point Patrick, no I can’t say that I have. And
might feel very differently having gone through that
sort of recovery. But statistically and in my
experience it does work for many people. There are
very few people, if I had to use a percentage I
would say the percentage is less then 1% who can
simply do whatever they want or feel they need to do
in order to back off from hard drugs, or step back
from the cliff’s edge.
Statistically and also in my experience this does
not happen often. Addictionology which you view as a
joke was not invented to annoy or amuse you, the
field exists like every other field, it’s built up
through trial and error and seeing what does or does
not work.

I am completely sure that at this stage I will get 5
responses and personal emails from people telling me
I’m wrong, but I would bring to your attention that
the people reading this list are a very self
selecting group and do not represent any “norm” that
I know about. They are people who wound up here
through mindvox or ibogaine, either group being
considerably different then any baseline.

You and Preston do not a majority make. Neither does
the rest of this list, by which I mean no disrespect
whatsoever, in fact all of you have much of my
respect for what you’ve accomplished.

And Andrea brought up what I thought was a very
important and true point. I would also much rather
listen to you Patrick, then to some acedemic talking
crap *grin* Her point was that I don’t care how you
did it but if someone goes through all that and can
remain off their drugs, then I don’t think it
matters how much ibogaine you do or not, you cannot
remain “sober” if all you are is a inflated ego and
empty shell. Which very much to my regret DP
conferences are full of. If that is all you are, you
will be back to whatever you were on very fast.
Every addict I have known again no matter how they
did it, has some sort of real inner core and
strength. They have the ability to get real and cut
the shit.

Academics operate under no such burden or blessing.

Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:10:57AM -0700], [Kerry
Dawson] wrote:

| I think I made that statement in response to
Patrick’s feelings about
| coerced treatment, I agreed with Rick that it
works in some cases,

That’s all very nice. Ever been at the *receiving*
end of it do0d?

|

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0006/alpha/index.cfm

That’s just the Zen of Testosterone.

|

http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=About/Mission.html

Look, that’s ART!

| But it’s not the whole story, if I want to regress
to psych 101 again I
| can throw in cyclothymic (the new word for bi
polor or manic
| depressive), antisocial, schizotypal, suffering
from hppd (hallucinogen

You skipped a bunch, certainly narcissistic; I mean,
everything IS all
about ME after all.

| All of which added up indicate he should be locked
in a padded room and
| hooked up to iv morphine. Not doing neuroscience,
computers, writing,

Can you give me that in writing…? I mean, if I
ever need a vacation, I
would definitely love to spend it in a padded room
hooked to a morphine
drip. Sounds Fully Excellent! Woo Hoo!

| speaking. So what does any of it amount to. Who
knows. You should ask
| someone in Florida who has ever tried to treat him
that.

I love my medical and psych records. Especially the
last series with
“extremely poor prognosis” written all over ’em.
They belong in the great
big I Will Not Be Digested By Elves! file, inside my
mind; just left of
the Absolutely Fucking Hysterical filing cabinet.

Alla dat bein’ sed, it’s a great big whatever.
Western models of
psychology and mind are extremely good at making
detailed diagnosis’ of
the whole entire everything that’s wrong with you.
And completely useless
for solving any of it. My complete summation of
“therapy” as it works in
the west: if you keep digging in shit, you’ll be
covered in it. The End.

| yoh! as u say.. it was originally just a comment
based on the fact that you
| did such a good job in London.

Tanks.

| Then Kerry pops up and calls you an alpha male(!)-
still trying to find out
| exactly what that means.., and I recalled the only
thing about your pres. in
| London that bothered me at all; you kinda got all
male/drug war story-teller
| at some points, and my past synanon brain-washing
kicked in: “if it was that
| f exciting, why the hell did u give it up? Stop
showing off big boy etc!” It
| was probably jealousy as much as anything else
that I couldn’t have the same
| opportunity as you.

Laughing, yeah I did okay. The one thing to remember
is, that was my
first time ever doing that. I’ve done panels and
interviews. Never, just
get up and talk for an hour. My main concern was
figuring out how to fill
up so much time, and I had no idea what to say. When
I’m looking down,
it’s not because i’m lost in thoughtful reflection,
I’m reading the list
of bullets I wrote on a piece of paper an hour
beforehand.

It turned out not to be a problem, ‘cuz I was only
’bout halfway done at
the one hour mark, and the war stories went on a
little long, the
reintegration was a little short. No worries,

| conferences. And I guess that’s where the likes of
you are vital. However
| much ego an addict gets from doing talks at
conference circuits, their life
| experience will ground them firmly, and return
them to human humble
| articulacy, where this is NOT the case for many
non-addict speakers, and F,
| does it show. There have been moments at such
events, where I have literally
| felt physically sick observing all the ego-mania
that marches on..

Yeah, Fuck Them mahn, what do they know ’bout
addikshun anywaze. Go do
some Real research, live through that, then run your
mouth.

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 30, 2002 at 6:33:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

i put in the `my sentiments exactly…

larry-

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 30, 2002 at 4:42:05 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

nope, I didn’t write even a single world of this message below.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rhafner77@cs.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences

In a message dated 6/30/2002 8:48:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

do
some Real research, live through that, then run your mouth.

Patrick

my sentiments EXACTLY..

From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 30, 2002 at 2:12:17 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 6/30/2002 8:48:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:

do
some Real research, live through that, then run your mouth.

Patrick

my sentiments EXACTLY..

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 30, 2002 at 11:41:14 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>There are very few people, if I had to use a percentage I would say the percentage is less then 1% who can simply do whatever they want or feel they need to do in order to back off from hard drugs, or step back from the cliff’s edge. Statistically and also in my experience this does not happen often. Addictionology which you view as a joke was not invented to annoy or amuse you, the field exists like every other field, it’s built up through trial and error and seeing what does or does not work.I am completely sure that at this stage I will get 5 responses and personal emails from people telling me I’m wrong, but I would bring to your attention that the people reading this list are a very self selecting group and do not represent any “norm” that I know about. They are people who wound up here through mindvox or ibogaine, either group being considerably different then any baseline.<
Hi Kerry,
Actually, at least one of us here did not come to this list through either ibogaine or mindvox. (I know,¬†what am I doing here?), which though it might seem I’m saying you are “wrong” I’n not, I’m only clarifying;-)) I realize of course that some on this list are not overly or completely enthusiatic about Stanton Peele, (including me for instance), but here’s a clip from one of the new articles at drugwar.com, which I just posted a link¬†on to this list early this morning-
http://www.drugwar.com/cheadshrinking.shtm
SPONTANEOUS RECOVERY
For example, how do abstinence proponents reconcile their beliefs with a study commissioned by the National Institute on Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse (NIAAA), published in 1996, which found that a large majority of persons deemed “alcohol dependent” were capable of spontaneous recovery without any form of abstinence-based treatment? In fact, more than half of those who participated in the organization¬ís National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiological Survey (NLAES) and met the diagnostic criteria for alcoholism were capable of moderating their alcohol intake without swearing off booze.
Drugs are different? Not so according to long-term studies of US drug users. Peele reveals that, “Long-term cocaine users, for example, do not become addicts. And when they do go through periods of abuse, they typically cut back or quit on their own.” To substantiate this statement the addiction expert cites statistics from the National Household Survey on Drug Abuse (NHSDA) which show that some 3 million Americans have used heroin. Based on this figure, one would think that we are in the midst of a crippling pandemic of addiction. However, roughly 5% had used the drug within the past month. The statistics for cocaine are similar. As Peele explains, “These findings indicate that the vast majority of heroin and cocaine users either never become addicted or, if they do, soon manage to moderate their use or abstain.”
>¬†I would also much rather listen to you Patrick, then to some acedemic talking crap *grin* Her point was that I don’t care how you did it but if someone goes through all that and can remain off their drugs, then I don’t think it matters how much ibogaine you do or not, you cannot remain “sober” if all you are is a inflated ego and empty shell. Which very much to my regret DP conferences are full of. If that is all you are, you will be back to whatever you were on very fast. Every addict I have known again no matter how they did it, has some sort of real inner core and strength. They have the ability to get real and cut the shit. <
I read recently that the government of Scotland at least is asking addicts for their input on what can be done positively to cut down the harms associated with drug abuse and prohibition. Perhaps more drug policy conferences will take their lead.¬†I tend to agree with you on your assessment of addicts being fairly good at getting real and cutting the shit, usually, though not always,¬†once they’ve quit being “junkies” that is.
>Addictionology which you view as a joke was not invented to annoy or amuse you, the field exists like every other field, it’s built up through trial and error and seeing what does or does not work.<
Ahh, but here’s the rub- Addictionology was “invented” because people keep insisting they want to use all sorts of¬†drugs, despite whatever penalties the prohibitionist fascists mandated. Hence, the drug users¬†must¬†be sick or crazy to risk prison “just” for a “high.” But to me this is both¬†most arrogant and¬†simplistic, leaving out so much of what getting high is all about to so many people, and treats all use of illegal drugs as abuse. Seems to me that is the main reason “addictionology” was invented. The idea that one drug is “good” and others “bad” flies in the face of reason, at least, my reason, especially when “addictionology” completely ignores the very real and very destructive¬†repercussions of prohibition.¬†I realize I alone don’t a majority make, but I thought I’d pipe up anyway. AND, what does and does not work? Has there been any consensus whatsoever at all in the history of treatment? Ask any drug addiction treater what addiction is, and chances are, I’d be willing to be tons of money, every single one of them will give a different answer.Ask what the most “effective” treatment methods are, even of different treaters in the same clinic, and again you will receive a¬†vast assortment¬†of different answers. No?‚Ä®Peace,‚Ä®Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Kerry Dawson
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences

Valid point Patrick, no I can’t say that I have. And might feel very differently having gone through that sort of recovery. But statistically and in my experience it does work for many people. There are very few people, if I had to use a percentage I would say the percentage is less then 1% who can simply do whatever they want or feel they need to do in order to back off from hard drugs, or step back from the cliff’s edge.
Statistically and also in my experience this does not happen often. Addictionology which you view as a joke was not invented to annoy or amuse you, the field exists like every other field, it’s built up through trial and error and seeing what does or does not work.
I am completely sure that at this stage I will get 5 responses and personal emails from people telling me I’m wrong, but I would bring to your attention that the people reading this list are a very self selecting group and do not represent any “norm” that I know about. They are people who wound up here through mindvox or ibogaine, either group being considerably different then any baseline.
You and Preston do not a majority make. Neither does the rest of this list, by which I mean no disrespect whatsoever, in fact all of you have much of my respect for what you’ve accomplished.
And Andrea brought up what I thought was a very important and true point. I would also much rather listen to you Patrick, then to some acedemic talking crap *grin* Her point was that I don’t care how you did it but if someone goes through all that and can remain off their drugs, then I don’t think it matters how much ibogaine you do or not, you cannot remain “sober” if all you are is a inflated ego and empty shell. Which very much to my regret DP conferences are full of. If that is all you are, you will be back to whatever you were on very fast. Every addict I have known again no matter how they did it, has some sort of real inner core and strength. They have the ability to get real and cut the shit.
Academics operate under no such burden or blessing.
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:10:57AM -0700], [Kerry Dawson] wrote:‚Ä®‚Ä®| I think I made that statement in response to Patrick’s feelings about‚Ä®| coerced treatment, I agreed with Rick that it works in some cases,
That’s all very nice. Ever been at the *receiving* end of it do0d?‚Ä®‚Ä®| http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0006/alpha/index.cfm‚Ä®‚Ä®That’s just the Zen of Testosterone.‚Ä®‚Ä®| http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=About/Mission.html‚Ä®‚Ä®Look, that’s ART! ‚Ä®‚Ä®| But it’s not the whole story, if I want to regress to psych 101 again I‚Ä®| can throw in cyclothymic (the new word for bi polor or manic‚Ä®| depressive), antisocial, schizotypal, suffering from hppd (hallucinogen‚Ä®‚Ä®You skipped a bunch, certainly narcissistic; I mean, everything IS all‚Ä®about ME after all.‚Ä®‚Ä®| All of which added up indicate he should be locked in a padded room and‚Ä®| hooked up to iv morphine. Not doing neuroscience, computers, writing,‚Ä®‚Ä®Can you give me that in writing…? I mean, if I ever need a vacation, I‚Ä®would definitely love to spend it in a padded room hooked to a morphine‚Ä®drip. Sounds Fully Exce! llent! Woo Hoo!‚Ä®‚Ä®| speaking. So what does any of it amount to. Who knows. You should ask‚Ä®| someone in Florida who has ever tried to treat him that.‚Ä®‚Ä®I love my medical and psych records. Especially the last series with‚Ä®”extremely poor prognosis” written all over ’em. They belong in the great‚Ä®big I Will Not Be Digested By Elves! file, inside my mind; just left of‚Ä®the Absolutely Fucking Hysterical filing cabinet.‚Ä®‚Ä®Alla dat bein’ sed, it’s a great big whatever. Western models of‚Ä®psychology and mind are extremely good at making detailed diagnosis’ of‚Ä®the whole entire everything that’s wrong with you. And completely useless‚Ä®for solving any of it. My complete summation of “therapy” as it works in‚Ä®the west: if you keep digging in shit, you’ll be covered in it. The End.‚Ä®‚Ä®| yoh! as u say.. it was originally just a comment based on the fact that you‚Ä®| did such a good job in London.‚Ä®‚Ä®Tanks.‚Ä®‚Ä®| Then Kerry pops up and calls yo! u an alpha male(!)- still trying to find out‚Ä®| exactly what that means.., and I recalled the only thing about your pres. in‚Ä®| London that bothered me at all; you kinda got all male/drug war story-teller‚Ä®| at some points, and my past synanon brain-washing kicked in: “if it was that‚Ä®| f exciting, why the hell did u give it up? Stop showing off big boy etc!” It‚Ä®| was probably jealousy as much as anything else that I couldn’t have the same‚Ä®| opportunity as you.‚Ä®‚Ä®Laughing, yeah I did okay. The one thing to remember is, that was my‚Ä®first time ever doing that. I’ve done panels and interviews. Never, just‚Ä®get up and talk for an hour. My main concern was figuring out how to fill‚Ä®up so much time, and I had no idea what to say. When I’m looking down,‚Ä®it’s not because i’m lost in thoughtful reflection, I’m reading the list‚Ä®of bullets I wrote on a piece of paper an hour beforehand. ‚Ä®‚Ä®It turned out not to be a problem, ‘cuz I was only ’bout hal! fway done at‚Ä®the one hour mark, and the war stories went on a little long, the‚Ä®reintegration was a little short. No worries, ‚Ä®‚Ä®| conferences. And I guess that’s where the likes of you are vital. However‚Ä®| much ego an addict gets from doing talks at conference circuits, their life‚Ä®| experience will ground them firmly, and return them to human humble‚Ä®| articulacy, where this is NOT the case for many non-addict speakers, and F,‚Ä®| does it show. There have been moments at such events, where I have literally‚Ä®| felt physically sick observing all the ego-mania that marches on..‚Ä®‚Ä®Yeah, Fuck Them mahn, what do they know ’bout addikshun anywaze. Go do‚Ä®some Real research, live through that, then run your mouth.‚Ä®‚Ä®Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] what changed?
Date: June 30, 2002 at 5:16:08 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick everything I know about you is from this list, your writing and now reading Mindvox for the first time thouroughly, excuse my spelling its very late. I don’t know what art is but it’s damn good. It’s better then damn good. Why did you end up on heroin. You said you’ve chipped since 14, that’s more years then anyone I know manages it to get a habit at 23? What happened, what changed that drove you from where you were to where you went for 8 years?
I know it’s none of my business but all of you use this list like most people use the rooms and after reading Mindvox like I’ve done just now I am very, more then curious what happened? When and how did you cross the line from in control to out of control. I am familiar with how you returned, but that part is a blank to me.
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 30, 2002 at 4:55:21 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Valid point Patrick, no I can’t say that I have. And might feel very differently having gone through that sort of recovery. But statistically and in my experience it does work for many people. There are very few people, if I had to use a percentage I would say the percentage is less then 1% who can simply do whatever they want or feel they need to do in order to back off from hard drugs, or step back from the cliff’s edge.
Statistically and also in my experience this does not happen often. Addictionology which you view as a joke was not invented to annoy or amuse you, the field exists like every other field, it’s built up through trial and error and seeing what does or does not work.
I am completely sure that at this stage I will get 5 responses and personal emails from people telling me I’m wrong, but I would bring to your attention that the people reading this list are a very self selecting group and do not represent any “norm” that I know about. They are people who wound up here through mindvox or ibogaine, either group being considerably different then any baseline.
You and Preston do not a majority make. Neither does the rest of this list, by which I mean no disrespect whatsoever, in fact all of you have much of my respect for what you’ve accomplished.
And Andrea brought up what I thought was a very important and true point. I would also much rather listen to you Patrick, then to some acedemic talking crap *grin* Her point was that I don’t care how you did it but if someone goes through all that and can remain off their drugs, then I don’t think it matters how much ibogaine you do or not, you cannot remain “sober” if all you are is a inflated ego and empty shell. Which very much to my regret DP conferences are full of. If that is all you are, you will be back to whatever you were on very fast. Every addict I have known again no matter how they did it, has some sort of real inner core and strength. They have the ability to get real and cut the shit.
Academics operate under no such burden or blessing.
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:10:57AM -0700], [Kerry Dawson] wrote:‚Ä®‚Ä®| I think I made that statement in response to Patrick’s feelings about‚Ä®| coerced treatment, I agreed with Rick that it works in some cases,
That’s all very nice. Ever been at the *receiving* end of it do0d?‚Ä®‚Ä®| http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0006/alpha/index.cfm‚Ä®‚Ä®That’s just the Zen of Testosterone.‚Ä®‚Ä®| http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=About/Mission.html‚Ä®‚Ä®Look, that’s ART! ‚Ä®‚Ä®| But it’s not the whole story, if I want to regress to psych 101 again I‚Ä®| can throw in cyclothymic (the new word for bi polor or manic‚Ä®| depressive), antisocial, schizotypal, suffering from hppd (hallucinogen‚Ä®‚Ä®You skipped a bunch, certainly narcissistic; I mean, everything IS all‚Ä®about ME after all.‚Ä®‚Ä®| All of which added up indicate he should be locked in a padded room and‚Ä®| hooked up to iv morphine. Not doing neuroscience, computers, writing,‚Ä®‚Ä®Can you give me that in writing…? I mean, if I ever need a vacation, I‚Ä®would definitely love to spend it in a padded room hooked to a morphine‚Ä®drip. Sounds Fully Excellent! Woo Hoo!‚Ä®‚Ä®| speaking. So what does any of it amount to. Who knows. You should ask‚Ä®| someone in Florida who has ever tried to treat him that.‚Ä®‚Ä®I love my medical and psych records. Especially the last series with‚Ä®”extremely poor prognosis” written all over ’em. They belong in the great‚Ä®big I Will Not Be Digested By Elves! file, inside my mind; just left of‚Ä®the Absolutely Fucking Hysterical filing cabinet.‚Ä®‚Ä®Alla dat bein’ sed, it’s a great big whatever. Western models of‚Ä®psychology and mind are extremely good at making detailed diagnosis’ of‚Ä®the whole entire everything that’s wrong with you. And completely useless‚Ä®for solving any of it. My complete summation of “therapy” as it works in‚Ä®the west: if you keep digging in shit, you’ll be covered in it. The End.‚Ä®‚Ä®| yoh! as u say.. it was originally just a comment based on the fact that you‚Ä®| did such a good job in London.‚Ä®‚Ä®Tanks.‚Ä®‚Ä®| Then Kerry pops up and calls you an alpha male(!)- still trying to find out‚Ä®| exactly what that means.., and I recalled the only thing about your pres. in‚Ä®| London that bothered me at all; you kinda got all male/drug war story-teller‚Ä®| at some points, and my past synanon brain-washing kicked in: “if it was that‚Ä®| f exciting, why the hell did u give it up? Stop showing off big boy etc!” It‚Ä®| was probably jealousy as much as anything else that I couldn’t have the same‚Ä®| opportunity as you.‚Ä®‚Ä®Laughing, yeah I did okay. The one thing to remember is, that was my‚Ä®first time ever doing that. I’ve done panels and interviews. Never, just‚Ä®get up and talk for an hour. My main concern was figuring out how to fill‚Ä®up so much time, and I had no idea what to say. When I’m looking down,‚Ä®it’s not because i’m lost in thoughtful reflection, I’m reading the list‚Ä®of bullets I wrote on a piece of paper an hour beforehand. ‚Ä®‚Ä®It turned out not to be a problem, ‘cuz I was only ’bout halfway done at‚Ä®the one hour mark, and the war stories went on a little long, the‚Ä®reintegration was a little short. No worries, ‚Ä®‚Ä®| conferences. And I guess that’s where the likes of you are vital. However‚Ä®| much ego an addict gets from doing talks at conference circuits, their life‚Ä®| experience will ground them firmly, and return them to human humble‚Ä®| articulacy, where this is NOT the case for many non-addict speakers, and F,‚Ä®| does it show. There have been moments at such events, where I have literally‚Ä®| felt physically sick observing all the ego-mania that marches on..‚Ä®‚Ä®Yeah, Fuck Them mahn, what do they know ’bout addikshun anywaze. Go do‚Ä®some Real research, live through that, then run your mouth.‚Ä®‚Ä®Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] treatment, race, and the War on Some Drugs
Date: June 30, 2002 at 12:47:52 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all,
I think I forgot to post this note here, and due primarily to the second article featured in this letter, Headshrinking the American Addict- Recovery in the 21st Century, I thought I’d share. Aww, I’d probably share anyway. (Never let it be said I didn’t take anything at all from the “rooms”.;-))
Peace,
Preston

Greetings and salutations.
Xerox announced today that it had copied other corporate leaders in fudging their books to claims higher earnings. How is the US government, chock full of “former” corporate board members, able to justify such repressive, unscientific, and¬†blatantly racist anti-drug laws, yet do next to nothing to go after these people stealing billions of dollars? Seems pretty clear which “criminals”¬†are doing more damage to society. Perhaps we could¬†institute some type of corporate-crime courts, insisting these people have a disease and need coerced treatment, if¬†our leaders and law enforcement personnel¬†aren’t going to insist they be imprisoned.

Speaking of the racist aspects of the War on Some Drugs and¬†Users, something the editor of Drugwar.com has noticed at the various conferences and events he’s attended is the relative scarcity of black and other “minority” groups being involved. This could be because the editor is white, and isn’t invited to the events sponsored by blacks and others, but¬†other than for¬†Dedon Kamathi,¬†co-chair of Crack the CIA,
(one of the¬†activists and researchers¬†featured here- http://www.drugwar.com/pciadrugsconnections.shtm), the editor is unaware of many black activists. (Of course, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really seem there’re too¬†many white activists working towards¬†War on Some Drugs¬†reforms either.)
Clifford Wallace Thornton, co-founder of Efficacy-online.org, feels there is a distinct lack of outcry by black community, religious, and political leaders against the damages caused to the black communities by the War.
Read his impassioned editorial for Drugwar.com here-

Wake Up Black America-
http://www.drugwar.com/thornton1.shtm

And speaking of possible forced treatment for corporate crooks, we are happy to publish Cletus Nelson’s latest piece for Drugwar.com¬†dissecting trends in the drug treatment industry¬†towards creating¬†vaccinations aimed at cutting off forever the ability in “addicts” to get high from any assortment of drugs both legal and not so. See:

Headshrinking the American Addict- Recovery in the 21st Century
http://www.drugwar.com/cheadshrinking.shtm

We also have a wide ranging¬†list of links, updated daily, to stories covering the slide of the US dollar towards freefall, the FBI visiting libraries to inquire about reading habits of Americans, how the War on Some Drugs strategies are fatally flawed despite DEA head Asa¬†Hutchinson’s assertions in London to the contrary a week and a half ago, unanswered questions swirling around the Sept. 11 attacks, notes on a legal pot initiative in Nevada and a medical marijuana compromise in Vermont, drug corruption in Australia, and a heck of a lot more.
Peace,
Preston Peet
Editor in Chief http://www.drugwar.com
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com

And, I must also add Sister Somayah to the short list of black American activists. She is a High Times freedom fighter, and incredibly dedicated woman who definitely deserves props.
http://www.geocities.com/sistersomayah/

And of course Ed Forchion, the New Jersey Weedman-
http://www.njweedman.com/press_release.htm
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Of course Bush knew!
Date: June 29, 2002 at 6:43:10 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

For Mash: Thought for Today….

Question: Which is worse, Bush or NIxon?

Ans: Nixon was impeached, and would be no threat even if he were still alive.

Question: Which is worse, Bush or Hitler?

Ans: Hitler’s dead.

Question: Which is worse, G.W. Bush or Satan Incarnate?

Ans: G.W. IS Satan Incarnate!

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] bush knew?
Date: June 29, 2002 at 4:49:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey, I don’t particularily doubt that you are correct. ¬†I simply don’t
know… ¬†I have never voted for anybody in my entire life thus far. ¬†And
on one hand I have Bruce, who will EXPLAIN why the Republicans are
correct, on the other I have Deborah. ¬†And she’s uhm, very CLEAR on things
and stuff, “honey, sit down, allow me to explain the top 101 reasons why
George Bush is SATAN!” ¬†And if Bruce sorta believes he’s right, Deborah
absolutely, totally, and completely believes the Satan bit.

Tell her she’s right. Bush IS Satan. On this one, Mash and Howard can
finally bury the hatchet.

Do you think this is why Fancher doesn’t want to talk to me?

Dana/cnw

From: Henk <knehnav@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] psychedelic art
Date: June 29, 2002 at 10:20:31 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

a bit of topic but……………….
http://w1.736.telia.com/~u73602493/flashback.html
This sight is worth checking out, but stick with it for a moment to > really get to the good part!
Henk


http://www.xs4all.nl/~knehnav/

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here
Date: June 28, 2002 at 11:24:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To Vector6

We are very nice people and Andrea is the best.  She has done so much for the movement in the UK, and I respect her immensely.
She’s as cool as a cucumber and has been around a block or two.

Stay with the site, you will learn as you go.

Judith Ostergard…Advocates for Methadone Maintenance at Omaha (AMMO)

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 28, 2002 at 5:40:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Please get with someone and work thru these things.  I know it
doesn’t feel this way, but you’re not to blame for your sons problems.

Even if his problems _are_ your fault, they are not your
problems, and you won’t be able to help until your own
issues are worked out.

Bill Ross

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here
Date: June 28, 2002 at 1:34:44 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Vector, what’s your real flimming name; u can’t possibly be called Vector – NO, not even in America!!

A Potty professor is a proffesorial type, who likes to indulge all sorts of cannabinoids, and (in my case it does have other connotations, but I’d have to tell you that bit off line) In the meantime, it’s probably an ally of the reform movement who dons a suit, behaves like a straight, and probably is one but indulges happily de herb

Yoh; PLEASE tell me yr real name before I become potty also! And I have no idea what a toilet doctor is: did i write that!!?
Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: vector6@space.com [mailto:vector6@space.com]
Sent: 28 June 2002 18:21
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here

Yeah me! So when is the mindvox ibogaine world meeting taking place? I’m so there. This reminds me of something I have wanted to ask you and then never did. WHAT is a ‘potty professor’ ? a toilet doctor? a proctologist, what? I understand it is some kind of slang from england but I’ve never seen that before, what does it mean? .:vector:. On Fri, 28 June 2002, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt wrote What does geezing Ritalin mean? I never saw anything about it on this list. PK, are the different lists getting lines crossed? BTW, the more I communicate with you people, the more I wanna meet you all; does anyone else get that feeling?
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here
Date: June 28, 2002 at 1:21:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yeah me! So when is the mindvox ibogaine world meeting taking place? I’m so there. This reminds me of something I have wanted to ask you and then never did. WHAT is a ‘potty professor’ ? a toilet doctor? a proctologist, what? I understand it is some kind of slang from england but I’ve never seen that before, what does it mean? .:vector:. On Fri, 28 June 2002, Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt wrote What does geezing Ritalin mean? I never saw anything about it on this list. PK, are the different lists getting lines crossed? BTW, the more I communicate with you people, the more I wanna meet you all; does anyone else get that feeling?
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here
Date: June 28, 2002 at 12:00:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

geezing = fixing- shooting, dope usually…..

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 28, 2002 at 10:43:10 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Have no idea what u r referring to

Hope u get what u need

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com [mailto:Joatammmo23@aol.com]
Sent: 28 June 2002 04:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

This one is for Andria.
Andria girl, I know that U know¬† what’s happening, yet I know not if you have grown¬† children?¬† Question being:¬† I have 2 sons,¬† one of which is mentally challenged and the other is 38, a bachelor¬† and is very angry at the world for reasons¬† that¬† he won’t speak about.
He is an avid daily smoker of marijuana (which I¬† think makes him show his anger unreasonably…especially when he¬† can’t get it.
He also drinks¬† much¬† beer, has done his share of¬† cocaine and I blame myself¬† for it as I¬† come up in the 70’s smoking pot and¬† doing¬† everything that he is doing¬† right now.
I managed  to  keep  my family together in spite of my addictions.

He has worked his whole life,¬† doesn’t¬† like any of his¬† jobs.¬† I¬† begged him¬† to stay in¬†¬† college,¬† but no,¬† partying¬† was¬† more¬† fun.
I’ve been there also,¬†¬† but did manage to¬† get my degree.
I hurt  so  bad inside  from the  day  to day   bullshit  that  at  times I feel like putting  an end  to it all just to find peace.  I have  failed him in  some way,  but he  never had to  go without, ever.
I know that booze makes a mean SOB out of men, but¬† pot I¬† never realized¬† this.¬† If you have any idea¬† what¬† I should do please¬† give¬†¬† me¬† some advice.¬† I realize that you are not Ann Landers,¬† but he is making my life a living hell.¬† After giving my home to him while I pay rent¬† on a flat, it¬† doesn’t seem to be enough.
If  this is  his fathers gene I guess all I  can do is pray.

I want  ibogaine so  bad to rid me of this fucking  stupid no high addiction  that I  would  do  anything  to end  this misery.

If there is anyone that  can advise me besides you Andria  send  the  advise on please.

Ready to end it all…
Judith from Nebraska

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here
Date: June 28, 2002 at 10:22:51 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Larry

What does geezing Ritalin mean?

I never saw anything about it on this list. PK, are the different lists getting lines crossed?

BTW, the more I communicate with you people, the more I wanna meet you all; does anyone else get that feeling?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Rhafner77@cs.com [mailto:Rhafner77@cs.com]
Sent: 27 June 2002 21:59
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here

I guess folks will wonder the same thing about me, considering my responses to some of the posts, but I just can`t get with some of the posts <posters> that I see here. I don`t mean to be too rude, but at times… Like this morn. upon waking & turning on `vox, I see this post about geezing ritalin?? My response was ¬†amazingly out-there, < particularly to myself> & I usually wait awhile before hitting `reply` but I was still asleep enuff to whip one out. I`ve been using ¬†for quite awhile now, (50 yrs actually, GOD!) & believe Me I don`t know how, -or why- even tho` I`ve been to most programs in the states, both forced & by My own volition. a.a.-n.a. etc.etc. ad nauseum, & I really don`t believe I learned much from any of `em! Have been very interested in Ibogaine, but haven`t had the means or opportunity, Still lookin`tho`, mebbe one day. I think I`m able to handle a dose sufficient to ¬†kik this 150 a day of methadon e, but getting less certain if I really want to let it go now. Anyhow, just a few lines to say hi , & pardon if I get too wierd with my responses.. ¬†larry-

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 28, 2002 at 8:59:51 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Judith,
Please get with someone and work thru these things.  I know it
doesn’t feel this way, but you’re not to blame for your sons problems.
We all do the best we can, at the moment, with whatever we have at that
time.  Genetics are involved, as well as a whole host of other factors.
For the record, I had a severly alcoholic father, and a very messed up
mother.  Only 2 or 3 siblings messed with drugs or alcohol (7 of us
altogether). Only one had a serious addiction problem.  Who was to
blame? Not my parents, though I could, and did, play that card to get
what I wanted.  I was the one who began sneaking around, lying,
drinking, etc.

Many times, the best thing a person with an addiction can do is go
to Al-anon in order to learn how to deal with an addict in a healthier
fashion. ¬†Work thru the guilt and self-condemnation issues. ¬†I’ve seen
hundreds of people who have done this and then finally begin to be able
to make progress on their own problems as they are no longer burning
energy on problems which aren’t theirs and that they have no actual
control over.

My hopes and prayers go out to you.  May the God of heaven and your
understanding make his face to shine upon you. May he bless you and keep
you and give you strength.  Grace and mercy.  Good luck.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

Joatammmo23@aol.com 06/27/02 11:43PM >>>
This one is for Andria.
Andria girl, I know that U know ¬†what’s happening, yet I know not if
you have
grown  children?  Question being:  I have 2 sons,  one of which is
mentally
challenged and the other is 38, a bachelor  and is very angry at the
world
for reasons ¬†that ¬†he won’t speak about.
He is an avid daily smoker of marijuana (which I  think makes him show
his
anger unreasonably…especially when he ¬†can’t get it.
He also drinks  much  beer, has done his share of  cocaine and I blame
myself
for it as I ¬†come up in the 70’s smoking pot and ¬†doing ¬†everything
that he
is doing  right now.
I managed  to  keep  my family together in spite of my addictions.

He has worked his whole life, ¬†doesn’t ¬†like any of his ¬†jobs. ¬†I
begged him
to stay in   college,  but no,  partying  was  more  fun.
I’ve been there also, ¬†¬†but did manage to ¬†get my degree.
I hurt  so  bad inside  from the  day  to day   bullshit  that  at
times I
feel like putting  an end  to it all just to find peace.  I have
failed him
in  some way,  but he  never had to  go without, ever.
I know that booze makes a mean SOB out of men, but  pot I  never
realized
this.  If you have any idea  what  I should do please  give   me  some

advice.  I realize that you are not Ann Landers,  but he is making my
life a
living hell.  After giving my home to him while I pay rent  on a flat,
it
doesn’t seem to be enough.
If  this is  his fathers gene I guess all I  can do is pray.

I want  ibogaine so  bad to rid me of this fucking  stupid no high
addiction
that I  would  do  anything  to end  this misery.

If there is anyone that  can advise me besides you Andria  send  the
advise
on please.

Ready to end it all…
Judith from Nebraska

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 28, 2002 at 1:12:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Nick, aka God
No harm intended.¬† I suppose because of the amazing change in my own life I merely wanted to share it with others out there suffering like I was…
Peace.
Linda Kay
—– Original Message —–
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

—– Original Message —–
From: lhutcherson
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston & Andria,
I, too have the hep c virus.¬† I also got it from my years of self abuse.¬† But I am claiming my victory now!¬† I refuse to “lie down” because of this diagnosis.¬† I know God is walking with me.¬† As for depression, if you CLAIM your spirituality, identify God in yourself, get a personal relationship with Him, I swear, it will change your life.¬† PEACE is all any of us crave in this world.¬† Everything we do superficially is merely a quest for Peace.¬† Let us stop all of this INTELLECTUALIZING about addiction.¬† Science (man/woman) has manufactured all kinds of help eg. Ibogaine, methadone etc.¬†and we should use the gifts God gave us to help ourselves, but FIRST AND FOREMOST¬†make your foundation the One who Created You, and you can’t go wrong.

BTW, I too, find that the lack of the¬†energy that I once had can be difficult to deal with.¬†Working with a good doctor, and doing the aforementioned things I said, keeping healthy ie. healthy diet etc.is the way to go.¬† Don’t be afraid.¬† You are not alone.
Love and Kindness
Linda

Hey Linda, God made intellectuals too, you know. Are you dissing His creation? And where do you get off like TELLING people what they have to do? All that shows is that you’re still NOT THERE. If you love God and he/she/it saved your life…great! If you want to run around telling people how God saved your life….great! But when you feel some urge to like TELL people that THIS is what they also NEED to do….well it shows it hasn’t really worked for you after all, that a big part of you is still unhealed. The “God” you’re talking about is simply a state of surrender you’re putting a name to because that’s where you are at the moment. If you wanna keep going you’re gonna have to drop telling people what to do. Right now you’re just backpedalling.

God

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 28, 2002 at 1:10:15 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey Andria!
Yes, I’m in the good ‘ol USA- Detroit, Michigan to be exact.
Linda Kay
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Thanx for sharing Linda. And especially for your love and kindness.
And which bit of the U.S are you in? I’m assuming you are in the U.S?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: lhutcherson [mailto:lhutcherson3@comcast.net]
Sent: 25 June 2002 23:41
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston & Andria,
I, too have the hep c virus.¬† I also got it from my years of self abuse.¬† But I am claiming my victory now!¬† I refuse to “lie down” because of this diagnosis.¬† I know God is walking with me.¬† As for depression, if you CLAIM your spirituality, identify God in yourself, get a personal relationship with Him, I swear, it will change your life.¬† PEACE is all any of us crave in this world.¬† Everything we do superficially is merely a quest for Peace.¬† Let us stop all of this INTELLECTUALIZING about addiction.¬† Science (man/woman) has manufactured all kinds of help eg. Ibogaine, methadone etc.¬†and we should use the gifts God gave us to help ourselves, but FIRST AND FOREMOST¬†make your foundation the One who Created You, and you can’t go wrong.

BTW, I too, find that the lack of the¬†energy that I once had can be difficult to deal with.¬†Working with a good doctor, and doing the aforementioned things I said, keeping healthy ie. healthy diet etc.is the way to go.¬† Don’t be afraid.¬† You are not alone.
Love and Kindness
Linda Kay
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression; the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it, that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true to anyone¬†else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my mood lately¬†in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down, but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

>
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this summer. i’ve had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load, and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do you think i
> have anything to worry about?
> Poppy
>
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to
>> “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
>>
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that
>> says volumes.
>>
>> On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my
>> nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn’t
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.
>>
>> I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>>
>>
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>>
>>
>>
>> “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May 22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>>
>> | Jon
>> |
>> | Which country are you in?
>>
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>>
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts)
>> but
>> | as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state
>> of
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on
>> HCV)
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or
>> so
>>
>> Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
>> pretty simple:
>>
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
>> then you are more or less — probably — okay.
>>
>> This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>>
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
>> the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It should not
>> be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>>
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
>> isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>>
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>>
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
>> already.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Now… Here’s the great big grey area…
>>
>> What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.
>>
>> Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
>> living.
>>
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).
>>
>> All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
>> done to myself.
>>
>> However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
>> well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
>> like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>>
>> What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
>> want or don’t want.
>>
>> And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
>> something similar.
>>
>> This is called desperation.
>>
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
>> people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
>> with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
>> fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.
>>
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
>> intentions were.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
>> wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe… This may be
>> stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
>> feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
>> ‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
>> rapidly.”
>>
>> Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all fucked up and
>> acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
>> or because there’s something seriously wrong with them… Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>>
>> Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate, tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> ———————————
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction
Date: June 28, 2002 at 1:04:34 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Alexis,
I promise you I will begin including your brother in my prayers.  I believe that God answers prayers on His time not ours.  Everything happens for a reason-there are no accidents.
Perhaps your brother just hasn’t reached “his bottom” yet.¬† Enabling him only lengthens the time he continues using-sometimes we have to really suffer or have nothing left to hold onto before we change…and then if we are lucky, we fall on our knees and call out to God to HELP US- for the final time.¬† Sometimes it takes several tries before he (your brother) may get it right.
God Bless,
Linda Kay
—– Original Message —–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction

I have a hard time with “the Lord will deliver him from his torment” thing. ¬†I have a brother who has, ¬†and still is killing me inside from his excessive drinking.
It always begins as a recreational thing just as heroin addiction and it’s still legal. ¬†He has been in rehab 7 times, every hospital in the city of Chicago at least 5 times after being found in the dead of winter, ¬†dead drunk in someone yard.

As much as it hurts to admit that I have enabled him by giving him money to make him go away, or layed down credit cards for ¬†48 day stays in ¬†motels so he wouldn’t freeze to death. ¬†Oh Lord please help him I would cry.
I have prayed and prayed for him, and while in dry out bins he has accepted the Lord, only to come out and start all over.
I can only blame it on a father and mother who did nothing for him, nor cared enough for him to give him a proper life.
Can I blame him for using an enabler?  Why does God enable us to enable?
Please pray for my brother.

Alexis

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s SPEAKING OF SEROTONIN!
Date: June 28, 2002 at 12:56:43 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Andria,
My name is Linda…
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:47 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s SPEAKING OF SEROTONIN!

Hey
I’m ‘listening; – what’s your name?!

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: lhutcherson [mailto:lhutcherson3@comcast.net]
Sent: 25 June 2002 23:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s SPEAKING OF SEROTONIN!

I don’t know if anyone will pay attention to me, but here goes-
I got my H, C and Zanax addictions under control after I detoxed completely off methadone and going to a medical doctor who was empathetic to my woes.¬† He prescribed 20mg of Paxil and after two weeks of taking it (of course you have to take it that long to even get an effect) and then he upped it to 30 mg.¬† I haven’t looked back since…
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s

Michael

As I was preparing to take it some time ago, I learned that essentially what Iboga does is reset your serotonin levels; that is, I assume, to a higher level than before the treatment, in order for you to cope better after; -u know more feel good chemicals swimming around the bloodstream.

I am not a pharmacologist; even if I was, I’m not sure that I’d go into the chemical detail on this list; for most of us on th9is list, I think the thinkg to know is that it does work, it’s got its drawbacks, (possibly fewer) than most other ‘addiction’ treatments and that you may get deeply reflective for a while, and even see some lovely colours (for a short while) duriong the experience.

Are you thinking about using Iboga to detox someone?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Michael Synergy [mailto:synergy9_11@yahoo.com]
Sent: 23 June 2002 10:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s

I enjoy reading this list if for not other reason then it’s much less depressing then any other addiction oriented list I’ve ever read before.
I also do my best to look up answers to questions I may have and try not to post every thought that crosses my mind here without first doing some homework.
The following questions which I hope someone can answer are not explained in any way that I can either find or understand on any of the ibogaine sites. Not org, net, co.uk and if there is some other source of ibogaine info I am missing please tell me, because those three are about it each in their own way.
Someone mentioned that doing MDMA after ibogaine was a dangerous idea. Why is that? And how soon after is after. A week a month, 6 months?
The much larger question I have I don’t think has an answer. That question is based in part on reading the entheogen review article which was reprinted here.
Do any of you know how ibogaine really works? Does anyone? Because the impression I’m getting from reading all the material I could find on those three sites as well as doing a search through Patrick’s writing for Heroin Times does nothing but bring up theories all of which have been disproved over time or aren’t complete.
It looks like nobody is exactly sure how ibogaine works despite real scientists working with it for a decade or more now.
I know that this could be applied to most hallucinogens and yes I know ibogaine isn’t technically a hallucinogenic drug.
The key difference looks to be that whatever any hallucinogenic drug might do to your perceptions, it will not get rid of your addictions. Ibogaine gets rid of all of them all at once. That’s a little spooky. What sounds even more spooky is that review saying that ibogaine re writes genetic expression. Re writes it to what? What exactly is it doing to the brain to re arrange everything in one dose?
It would worry me more if it wasn’t for the fact that most of you who have done it look like you’re not in wheelchairs or walking around with brain damage and whatever might be said about using the term ‘crazy’ saying different or not normal is a better description.
Is there a reasonable expection that somebody is going to figure it out in the next 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Because as far as I know, even now they still haven’t done so with LSD.
This is a exact quote from Patrick and I understand it’s a joke but it doesn’t look like it’s that funny or far from truth.

‘Seems like a good theory, theories are important. Like fer instance without theories you couldn’t hold Ibogaine conferences and go up on stage and point at little charts and graphs, and write monographs and things. Saying, “it seems to interact with 90% of the brain, for the most part we dunno what the fuck it does, but these guys in the Gabon have been making tea outta this stuff for hundreds of years and it doesn’t seem ta kill most of ’em, a lot of the time. So just eat the shit, and then somethin’ simply magical happens,” doesn’t sound quite as impressive.’
I’m not writing this letter to make chit chat, I’m trying to sort out if it might not be a safer idea to dose with the ibogaine extract from indra over a period of time instead of taking one large dose of hcl all at once. I know a lot of you are very blase about this, but I’m not in the same place. If I saw half of what Patrick and Dave in particular talk about and act comfortable with I would be more then ready for a mental hospital. Ibogaine aside Patrick is or was dosing LSD at 5 and 10 mg levels which I can’t find at the moment but did read somewhere on this list I think. 5 or 10 mg is 50 to 100 times the normal dose level.
What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a different place mentally, where you accept all this and even enjoy being in different realities. I think you crossed the boundary from solving your drug problems to religious experience and kept on going.
I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only want to detox. From all I have read and I have done my best to understand the material online, none of you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of you accept all these different realities as fact. Most of you are not troubled by the fact that ibogaine can kill you and I have to think that if Dr. Mash is so set on hooking people up to heart monitors and equipment and what else I don’t know, it’s because she either knows something or has seen something which scared her a lot, or she wouldn’t be doing all that.
I don’t want to kill myself or see lights and eyes. I only want to detox.
Is there any reason past personal preference that I would have better results from hcl instead of indra extract?
Thank you for reading this far to those who have.
_Synergy_

Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine, Check my private incest photos its kinda weird ūüôā
Date: June 28, 2002 at 12:51:11 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I completely missed this thread. What???

Carla B

— Joatammmo23@aol.com wrote:
Selling your filth on this site should get you life
in prison.

The Honorable Judge Frank Bemis

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 28, 2002 at 12:50:17 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick your really smart and funny and cute and all
that and let’s not forget a total dickhead.

Some of the time.

You’re seriously like so many different people who
spin all around and sometimes you are up there nearly
glowing and I mean that in such a good way, preston
and dave and some of you do that, then you go around
to obnoxious.

Whatever else the dsm stuff is, manic depressive is
still true ūüôā

Carla B

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:10:57AM -0700], [Kerry
Dawson] wrote:

| I think I made that statement in response to
Patrick’s feelings about
| coerced treatment, I agreed with Rick that it
works in some cases,

That’s all very nice. ¬†Ever been at the *receiving*
end of it do0d?

|

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0006/alpha/index.cfm

<grunt> That’s just the Zen of Testosterone.

|

http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=About/Mission.html

Look, that’s ART!

| But it’s not the whole story, if I want to regress
to psych 101 again I
| can throw in cyclothymic (the new word for bi
polor or manic
| depressive), antisocial, schizotypal, suffering
from hppd (hallucinogen

You skipped a bunch, certainly narcissistic; I mean,
everything IS all
about ME after all.

| All of which added up indicate he should be locked
in a padded room and
| hooked up to iv morphine. Not doing neuroscience,
computers, writing,

Can you give me that in writing…? ¬†I mean, if I
ever need a vacation, I
would definitely love to spend it in a padded room
hooked to a morphine
drip.  Sounds Fully Excellent!  Woo Hoo!

| speaking. So what does any of it amount to. Who
knows. You should ask
| someone in Florida who has ever tried to treat him
that.

I love my medical and psych records.  Especially the
last series with
“extremely poor prognosis” written all over ’em.
They belong in the great
big I Will Not Be Digested By Elves! file, inside my
mind; just left of
the Absolutely Fucking Hysterical filing cabinet.

Alla dat bein’ sed, it’s a great big whatever.
Western models of
psychology and mind are extremely good at making
detailed diagnosis’ of
the whole entire everything that’s wrong with you.
And completely useless
for solving any of it.  My complete summation of
“therapy” as it works in
the west: if you keep digging in shit, you’ll be
covered in it.  The End.

| yoh! as u say.. it was originally just a comment
based on the fact that you
| did such a good job in London.

Tanks.

| Then Kerry pops up and calls you an alpha male(!)-
still trying to find out
| exactly what that means.., and I recalled the only
thing about your pres. in
| London that bothered me at all; you kinda got all
male/drug war story-teller
| at some points, and my past synanon brain-washing
kicked in: “if it was that
| f exciting, why the hell did u give it up? Stop
showing off big boy etc!” It
| was probably jealousy as much as anything else
that I couldn’t have the same
| opportunity as you.

Laughing, yeah I did okay.  The one thing to
remember is, that was my
first time ever doing that. ¬†I’ve done panels and
interviews.  Never, just
get up and talk for an hour.  My main concern was
figuring out how to fill
up so much time, and I had no idea what to say.
When I’m looking down,
it’s not because i’m lost in thoughtful reflection,
I’m reading the list
of bullets I wrote on a piece of paper an hour
beforehand.

It turned out not to be a problem, ‘cuz I was only
’bout halfway done at
the one hour mark, and the war stories went on a
little long, the
reintegration was a little short.  No worries,

| conferences. And I guess that’s where the likes of
you are vital. However
| much ego an addict gets from doing talks at
conference circuits, their life
| experience will ground them firmly, and return
them to human humble
| articulacy, where this is NOT the case for many
non-addict speakers, and F,
| does it show. There have been moments at such
events, where I have literally
| felt physically sick observing all the ego-mania
that marches on..

Yeah, Fuck Them mahn, what do they know ’bout
addikshun anywaze.  Go do
some Real research, live through that, then run your
mouth.

Patrick

__________________________________________________
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 28, 2002 at 12:46:23 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Judith, hi. I’m sorry it sounds like a really rough
situation. Whatever your sons problems are I dont
think that your personally responsible for them when
he’s 38 years old. I mean yes you probably didnt do a
perfect job as a mother and you have guilt about that,
but its not usually pot that makes people get all
weird. every study i have ever read about that is that
when people stop smoking pot they become aggresive and
angry for a while before calming down.

please dont do anything bad to yourself even if you
feel awful, talk with someone ok? i’ve felt really
terrible so many times and been in the same place and
it does get less awful.

What are you addicted to? heroin? didnt you write when
you came on this list a while ago that you had access
to ibogaine, what happened with that?

Carla B

— Joatammmo23@aol.com wrote:
This one is for Andria.
Andria girl, I know that U know ¬†what’s happening,
yet I know not if you have
grown  children?  Question being:  I have 2 sons,
one of which is mentally
challenged and the other is 38, a bachelor  and is
very angry at the world
for reasons ¬†that ¬†he won’t speak about.
He is an avid daily smoker of marijuana (which I
think makes him show his
anger unreasonably…especially when he ¬†can’t get
it.
He also drinks  much  beer, has done his share of
cocaine and I blame myself
for it as I ¬†come up in the 70’s smoking pot and
doing  everything that he
is doing  right now.
I managed  to  keep  my family together in spite of
my addictions.

He has worked his whole life, ¬†doesn’t ¬†like any of
his  jobs.  I  begged him
to stay in   college,  but no,  partying  was  more
fun.
I’ve been there also, ¬†¬†but did manage to ¬†get my
degree.
I hurt  so  bad inside  from the  day  to day
bullshit  that  at  times I
feel like putting  an end  to it all just to find
peace.  I have  failed him
in  some way,  but he  never had to  go without,
ever.
I know that booze makes a mean SOB out of men, but
pot I  never realized
this.  If you have any idea  what  I should do
please  give   me  some
advice.  I realize that you are not Ann Landers,
but he is making my life a
living hell.  After giving my home to him while I
pay rent  on a flat, it
doesn’t seem to be enough.
If  this is  his fathers gene I guess all I  can do
is pray.

I want  ibogaine so  bad to rid me of this fucking
stupid no high addiction
that I  would  do  anything  to end  this misery.

If there is anyone that  can advise me besides you
Andria  send  the  advise
on please.

Ready to end it all…
Judith from Nebraska

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 27, 2002 at 11:43:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This one is for Andria.
Andria girl, I know that U know¬† what’s happening, yet I know not if you have grown¬† children?¬† Question being:¬† I have 2 sons,¬† one of which is mentally challenged and the other is 38, a bachelor¬† and is very angry at the world for reasons¬† that¬† he won’t speak about.
He is an avid daily smoker of marijuana (which I¬† think makes him show his anger unreasonably…especially when he¬† can’t get it.
He also drinks¬† much¬† beer, has done his share of¬† cocaine and I blame myself¬† for it as I¬† come up in the 70’s smoking pot and¬† doing¬† everything that he is doing¬† right now.
I managed  to  keep  my family together in spite of my addictions.

He has worked his whole life,¬† doesn’t¬† like any of his¬† jobs.¬† I¬† begged him¬† to stay in¬†¬† college,¬† but no,¬† partying¬† was¬† more¬† fun.
I’ve been there also,¬†¬† but did manage to¬† get my degree.
I hurt  so  bad inside  from the  day  to day   bullshit  that  at  times I feel like putting  an end  to it all just to find peace.  I have  failed him in  some way,  but he  never had to  go without, ever.
I know that booze makes a mean SOB out of men, but¬† pot I¬† never realized¬† this.¬† If you have any idea¬† what¬† I should do please¬† give¬†¬† me¬† some advice.¬† I realize that you are not Ann Landers,¬† but he is making my life a living hell.¬† After giving my home to him while I pay rent¬† on a flat, it¬† doesn’t seem to be enough.
If  this is  his fathers gene I guess all I  can do is pray.

I want  ibogaine so  bad to rid me of this fucking  stupid no high addiction  that I  would  do  anything  to end  this misery.

If there is anyone that  can advise me besides you Andria  send  the  advise on please.

Ready to end it all…
Judith from Nebraska

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine, Check my private incest photos its kinda weird ūüôā
Date: June 27, 2002 at 10:36:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Selling your filth on this site should get you life in prison.

The Honorable Judge Frank Bemis

From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here
Date: June 27, 2002 at 7:51:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ahh yes, why indeed?
Mainly because of the state of methadone treatment .. No question that I have a reasonable hookup, but I`ve recently moved to an area where the methadone availability is difficult to say the least. Not  that I have anything against methadone, but I guess its been so long since I`ve made it without heroin , methadone, or opiates of some type, that I`d just like to try sumpin different.. `The human condition` as it were. Whats the old cliche?
The grass is always greener..heh.. Isn`t that one of the reasons I started using in the first place??! Actually, I have degenerative bone disease, & the methadone is the main thing that has kept Me on My feet this long. I know several others likewise afflicted, & they`ve been bedridden for a long. long, time. Also, being unusually honest, I`d just like to do  a hit of dope that I could feel without spending a couple hundred  bucks. Regardless why I started using junk, one does come to love that ol`feeling. Know what I mean????
Well, I didn`t intend a book here, so later…..

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 27, 2002 at 7:06:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:10:57AM -0700], [Kerry
Dawson] wrote:

| I think I made that statement in response to
Patrick’s feelings about
| coerced treatment, I agreed with Rick that it
works in some cases,

That’s all very nice. ¬†Ever been at the *receiving*
end of it do0d?

|

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0006/alpha/index.cfm

<grunt> That’s just the Zen of Testosterone.

Ohhhh. ūüôā

Does anyone have tape or dvd of the london conference
and where do I order it from?

Thanks!

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here
Date: June 27, 2002 at 7:01:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Larry and welcome to the ibogaine list! As far as
being weird goes I wouldn’t worry too much about that,
if there is anywhere that is ‘normal’ then here is 180
in the other direction. No problems with weird that
I’ve seen. ūüėČ

My question would be, if you’ve been on drugs for 50
years now why do you want to detox now? Is it working
any less better then it’s worked for all that time or.
I don’t understand the motivation?

-carrie

— Rhafner77@cs.com wrote:
I guess folks will wonder the same thing about me,
considering my responses
to some of the posts, but I just can`t get with some
of the posts <posters>
that I see here. I don`t mean to be too rude, but at
times… Like this morn.
upon waking & turning on `vox, I see this post about
geezing ritalin?? My
response was  amazingly out-there, < particularly to
myself> & I usually wait
awhile before hitting `reply` but I was still asleep
enuff to whip one out.
I`ve been using  for quite awhile now, (50 yrs
actually, GOD!) & believe Me I
don`t know how, -or why- even tho` I`ve been to most
programs in the states,
both forced & by My own volition. a.a.-n.a. etc.etc.
ad nauseum, & I really
don`t believe I learned much from any of `em! Have
been very interested in
Ibogaine, but haven`t had the means or opportunity,
Still lookin`tho`, mebbe
one day. I think I`m able to handle a dose
sufficient to  kik this 150 a day
of methadone, but getting less certain if I really
want to let it go now.
Anyhow, just a few lines to say hi , & pardon if I
get too wierd with my
responses..  larry-

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thanks for the support of my resident alcoholic
Date: June 27, 2002 at 3:18:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

is there any
hope of getting an
experienced administrator who really knows what
they’re doing for just a
grand or two?

Answer=yes

Administrator??? Never heard it called that (a guide),
cute.

Call me or give me your number and MEANWHILE, if that
is what you want to do (or as soon as you decide it
is) get the requisit medical tests done. No matter who
you have treat your friend even if they say it is not
needed, it is totally safe, only INDRA, bla bla bla –
get the tests. No one has ever died who followed
protocol, everyone died didn’t… (3 people).
FYI, alcohol addiction is at the lower end of the
dosage levels for ibo – translation it could cost a
bit less than some other addictions and it is less
likely recovery time will be very long. As with
anything ibo related, results vary, symptoms vary,
effects vary, everything varies even in the same
person on a different day.

Oh yeah, I work at Qwes – one of dem failed telco
things – so the sooner
the better, as far as me being able to help him out
financially with this.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“We feel and know that we are eternal.”
-Benedict de Spinoza
——————————————-

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: why are ya` here
Date: June 27, 2002 at 4:59:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I guess folks will wonder the same thing about me, considering my responses to some of the posts, but I just can`t get with some of the posts <posters> that I see here. I don`t mean to be too rude, but at times… Like this morn. upon waking & turning on `vox, I see this post about geezing ritalin?? My response was ¬†amazingly out-there, < particularly to myself> & I usually wait awhile before hitting `reply` but I was still asleep enuff to whip one out. I`ve been using ¬†for quite awhile now, (50 yrs actually, GOD!) & believe Me I don`t know how, -or why- even tho` I`ve been to most programs in the states, both forced & by My own volition. a.a.-n.a. etc.etc. ad nauseum, & I really don`t believe I learned much from any of `em! Have been very interested in Ibogaine, but haven`t had the means or opportunity, Still lookin`tho`, mebbe one day. I think I`m able to handle a dose sufficient to ¬†kik this 150 a day of methadone, but getting less certain if I really want to let it go now. Anyhow, just a few lines to say hi , & pardon if I get too wierd with my responses.. ¬†larry-

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 27, 2002 at 4:32:13 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:10:57AM -0700], [Kerry Dawson] wrote:

| I think I made that statement in response to Patrick’s feelings about
| coerced treatment, I agreed with Rick that it works in some cases,

That’s all very nice. ¬†Ever been at the *receiving* end of it do0d?

| http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0006/alpha/index.cfm

<grunt> That’s just the Zen of Testosterone.

| http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=About/Mission.html

Look, that’s ART!

| But it’s not the whole story, if I want to regress to psych 101 again I
| can throw in cyclothymic (the new word for bi polor or manic
| depressive), antisocial, schizotypal, suffering from hppd (hallucinogen

You skipped a bunch, certainly narcissistic; I mean, everything IS all
about ME after all.

| All of which added up indicate he should be locked in a padded room and
| hooked up to iv morphine. Not doing neuroscience, computers, writing,

Can you give me that in writing…? ¬†I mean, if I ever need a vacation, I
would definitely love to spend it in a padded room hooked to a morphine
drip.  Sounds Fully Excellent!  Woo Hoo!

| speaking. So what does any of it amount to. Who knows. You should ask
| someone in Florida who has ever tried to treat him that.

I love my medical and psych records.  Especially the last series with
“extremely poor prognosis” written all over ’em. ¬†They belong in the great
big I Will Not Be Digested By Elves! file, inside my mind; just left of
the Absolutely Fucking Hysterical filing cabinet.

Alla dat bein’ sed, it’s a great big whatever. ¬†Western models of
psychology and mind are extremely good at making detailed diagnosis’ of
the whole entire everything that’s wrong with you. ¬†And completely useless
for solving any of it. ¬†My complete summation of “therapy” as it works in
the west: if you keep digging in shit, you’ll be covered in it. ¬†The End.

| yoh! as u say.. it was originally just a comment based on the fact that you
| did such a good job in London.

Tanks.

| Then Kerry pops up and calls you an alpha male(!)- still trying to find out
| exactly what that means.., and I recalled the only thing about your pres. in
| London that bothered me at all; you kinda got all male/drug war story-teller
| at some points, and my past synanon brain-washing kicked in: “if it was that
| f exciting, why the hell did u give it up? Stop showing off big boy etc!” It
| was probably jealousy as much as anything else that I couldn’t have the same
| opportunity as you.

Laughing, yeah I did okay.  The one thing to remember is, that was my
first time ever doing that. ¬†I’ve done panels and interviews. ¬†Never, just
get up and talk for an hour.  My main concern was figuring out how to fill
up so much time, and I had no idea what to say. ¬†When I’m looking down,
it’s not because i’m lost in thoughtful reflection, I’m reading the list
of bullets I wrote on a piece of paper an hour beforehand.

It turned out not to be a problem, ‘cuz I was only ’bout halfway done at
the one hour mark, and the war stories went on a little long, the
reintegration was a little short.  No worries,

| conferences. And I guess that’s where the likes of you are vital. However
| much ego an addict gets from doing talks at conference circuits, their life
| experience will ground them firmly, and return them to human humble
| articulacy, where this is NOT the case for many non-addict speakers, and F,
| does it show. There have been moments at such events, where I have literally
| felt physically sick observing all the ego-mania that marches on..

Yeah, Fuck Them mahn, what do they know ’bout addikshun anywaze. ¬†Go do
some Real research, live through that, then run your mouth.

Patrick

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Cool new full .pdf scan for all ya’ll
Date: June 27, 2002 at 2:51:44 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Well golly, sure would help to have the URL:

www.uccs.edu/splat/files

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“We feel and know that we are eternal.”
-Benedict de Spinoza
——————————————-

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG wrote:

Yes, off topic, but since there’s no entheogens list yet (hint hint)…

I finally scanned in the _entire_ text of what I feel is the Greatest Book
Ever Written, about my cause celebre ketamine.  This book falls into the
“no way in hell” category in terms of acquisition – I’ve seen four copies
come through alibris.com and abebooks.com in the last two years, of which
I own two.  (Only 5000 copies were printed, after which it was suppressed
due to the death of the author – long story.)

I hope someone out there enjoys this half as much as I did. ¬†There’s two
files – the 333k one is the front and back pages (color) and the 25 meg
one is the actual text. ¬†I’m very proud of myself for doing this, but
sorry the pages aren’t necessarily 100% flush with the margins of the
paper – what can I say, I had a friend go off another friend’s Xerox work.
Seriously, I consider this about the most thoughtful, interesting, and
downright bizarre book that I’ve ever read on entheogens, and I think you
will enjoy it whether or not you think K is clUbB k1dd13 “cat
tranquilizer” or the best Metaphorical Mental Modem devised yet, as long
as you’re a fan of eloquently written English.

A Mindvox exclusive!

Journeys into the Br..> 25-Jun-2002 19:31   333k    [title/back]
Journeys into the Br..> 25-Jun-2002 19:38  24.9M    [book text]

“If religion is the opium of the masses, then hallucinogens may be the
inside dope” – Marcia Moore

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“We feel and know that we are eternal.”
-Benedict de Spinoza
——————————————-

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: [ibogaine] Thanks for the support of my resident alcoholic
Date: June 27, 2002 at 2:07:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You guys really are the best.  I had no idea about the amount of support I
would get regarding this situation.  It would be different if this were an
average person, but to see this happen to someone with such a tremendous
amount of potential is especially heartbreaking (not even counting a 15+
year friendship.)

Hypothetically, how much would Ibogaine treatment cost? ¬†We’re nowhere in
the Healing Visions demographic (esp. him, 20 fifths of Smirnoff and Grey
Goose every week is a serious habit), is there any hope of getting an
experienced administrator who really knows what they’re doing for just a
grand or two?

Oh yeah, I work at Qwes – one of dem failed telco things – so the sooner
the better, as far as me being able to help him out financially with this.

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“We feel and know that we are eternal.”
-Benedict de Spinoza
——————————————-

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: [ibogaine] Cool new full .pdf scan for all ya’ll
Date: June 27, 2002 at 2:02:19 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Yes, off topic, but since there’s no entheogens list yet (hint hint)…

I finally scanned in the _entire_ text of what I feel is the Greatest Book
Ever Written, about my cause celebre ketamine.  This book falls into the
“no way in hell” category in terms of acquisition – I’ve seen four copies
come through alibris.com and abebooks.com in the last two years, of which
I own two.  (Only 5000 copies were printed, after which it was suppressed
due to the death of the author – long story.)

I hope someone out there enjoys this half as much as I did. ¬†There’s two
files – the 333k one is the front and back pages (color) and the 25 meg
one is the actual text. ¬†I’m very proud of myself for doing this, but
sorry the pages aren’t necessarily 100% flush with the margins of the
paper – what can I say, I had a friend go off another friend’s Xerox work.
Seriously, I consider this about the most thoughtful, interesting, and
downright bizarre book that I’ve ever read on entheogens, and I think you
will enjoy it whether or not you think K is clUbB k1dd13 “cat
tranquilizer” or the best Metaphorical Mental Modem devised yet, as long
as you’re a fan of eloquently written English.

A Mindvox exclusive!

Journeys into the Br..> 25-Jun-2002 19:31   333k    [title/back]
Journeys into the Br..> 25-Jun-2002 19:38  24.9M    [book text]

“If religion is the opium of the masses, then hallucinogens may be the
inside dope” – Marcia Moore

——————————————-
Jonathan R. Armstrong
jonarmst@du.edu

“We feel and know that we are eternal.”
-Benedict de Spinoza
——————————————-

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 27, 2002 at 1:10:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I think I made that statement in response to Patrick’s feelings about coerced treatment, I agreed with Rick that it works in some cases, Patrick and Preston disagreed, that it did not in any way work for them.
If something I said in passing about someone I don’t personally know if causing you to think about it weeks later, then I probably said the wrong thing.
Here’s a simple alpha male self test. It’s not serious, but it’s about as realistic as any other classification method, see where you fit in
http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0006/alpha/index.cfm
This is not a realistic way to assess anyone, but if you look at the mission statement on mindvox, it’s a good summary of everything and clearly understandable in about 1 second.
http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=About/Mission.html
But it’s not the whole story, if I want to regress to psych 101 again I can throw in cyclothymic (the new word for bi polor or manic depressive), antisocial, schizotypal, suffering from hppd (hallucinogen induced persisting perceptual disorder) and if I worked at it for 15 minutes, probably half the classifications in a DSM.
All of which added up indicate he should be locked in a padded room and hooked up to iv morphine. Not doing neuroscience, computers, writing, speaking. So what does any of it amount to. Who knows. You should ask someone in Florida who has ever tried to treat him that.
I’ve never seen the ibogaine conference, all I have on patrick is a 20 minute tape which went through NIDA last year where he’s sitting on a couch bein interviewed by someone off camera, not sure if it’s Mash or someone else. Very charismatic, articulate, no war stories at all. How he acts may depend on the venue but I agree completely that I would much rather listen to him then another collection of academics talking about nothing.
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
Patrick

yoh! as u say.. it was originally just a comment based on the fact that you
did such a good job in London.

Then Kerry pops up and calls you an alpha male(!)- still trying to find out
exactly what that means.., and I recalled the only thing about your pres. in
London that bothered me at all; you kinda got all male/drug war story-teller
at some points, and my past synanon brain-washing kicked in: “if it was that
f exciting, why the hell did u give it up? Stop showing off big boy etc!” It
was probably jealousy as much as anything else that I couldn’t have the same
opportunity as you.

BUT there is a bigger issue here also: I can’t speak for Preston, or other
activists/Ibogaine guides and others on this list (on conference circuits),
but I can say that I personally, have become CHRONICALLY bored of listening
to non-addicts babble on about the injustice of all the various cruel myriad
of the war on drugs: almost to the point where I wish we had our own
conferences. And I guess that’s where the likes of you are vital. However
much ego an addict gets from doing talks at conference circuits, their life
experience will ground them firmly, and return them to human humble
articulacy, where this is NOT the case for many non-addict speakers, and F,
does it show. There have been moments at such events, where I have literally
felt physically sick observing all the ego-mania that marches on..

As a matter of interest, is there anybody else on this list who feels even
vaguely similar, or has ideas about ‘our own conferences’ ideas? We have a
bit of money for stuff like that

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope, 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780 Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 26 June 2002 21:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:57:08PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt]
wrote:

| PK,
|
| Watch out angry female on the sorta war-path!

It’s all-good. I love angry chicks, that’s such a sexy energy to
manifest.

| PK, I kinda took umbrage to you saying, if someone wants to pay me etc, as
| I’ve never been paid for conference work, but maybe that’s the difference
| between an alpha male with self-esteem, who has no qualms with asking for
| $$$, (not to mention the fact that who else could do that job anyway? the
| only others I know are dead, or not into the job…) and a ? female with
| less S-E bla di bla..

Dunno… That wasn’t exactly whut I meant. I don’t need a speaker’s fee
for the ibogaine stuff. I will always do that for nothing — unless
someone else on the panel is being paid, in which case, yo, pass the cash
motherfucker — cuz, well, ibogaine is GOOD and I believe in it.

What I do need are tickets and a hotel, or in the worst case, someplace to
crash. I cannot start bouncing through every single drug policy
conference, because it’s like what… Okay, I’m gonna quit my job,
collect welfare, and hitch hike across the country to these things? It
has to be a conference where ibogaine can be fit into it. This will make
it okay with whom I work for.

I’m not sure any of this is a discussion even, the London ibogaine
conference was highly successful and worked for everyone, I think it
actually made money after people’s plane tickets and hotels were paid
for.

None of it’s even that black and white. I do care — which should be
obvious — about the war on human beings (drugs), “addiction,” all these
issues. I may not spend 100% of my time and energy attempting to be as
sensitive and touchy-feely ’bout it all as humanly possible, but
it doesn’t change anything.

If there’s anyplace you feel I should show up and speak ’bout something,
then just lemme know, Dana already does that. Chances are something can
be worked out.

I am just, sadly, at this moment in time, NOT independently wealthy.

Patrick
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 27, 2002 at 12:05:47 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

To why are U here then, I agree totally.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 27, 2002 at 11:35:48 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mmh, it might be that you are better able to point things out like this; i’ve a tendency to believe that if someone gets stuck, there is a purpose (usually self-protection) to their stuckness, and i should leave em to it. And u’s into pushing people out of the comfort zone?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:sandberg@onetel.net.uk]
Sent: 27 June 2002 17:31
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘sandberg@onetel.net.uk’
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Nick, leave the lassy alone! You may be right and everything, but she means well.
She’s coming from a loving place; that’s ultimately all i ever care about.

Naive? yep, that’s me,¬†and I don’t wanna sound ungrateful for your support, cos I do appreciate it, but I’m a sorta big gal now, I can handle it.

How ya doing these days anyway; never see anyone apart from ‘on’ this list!

Andria E-
Hi Andria, I’m good, living down at a commune called Osho Leela in Dorset and having a great time. back in london for a couple of days at the moment letting my flat out to hempman Tony. don’t know about the eden project gig, btw, try hats maybe.
Didn’t think I was being unfair to Linda, just trying to point out a little of how the mind works.
12 steppers go to places like this too. They get to somewhere where the process is getting scary but instead of speaking about this they just start pushing the fear outward trying to pressurize others to join them in the journey. it’s a routine thing and imo you gotta pull people up for it. once they start to talk about their fear things’ll get easier. It’s a protection and it’s necessary for a while, but people really do get stuck here and go on to spend their whole lives proseletysing, never getting another glance in the mirror. Just wanted to bring a little general clarity here, not being personal about Linda who I’m sure is a lovely person.
lots of love
Nick

ps. posting this to list as I figure others are interested in this stuff, hope you don’t mind.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] bush knew?
Date: June 27, 2002 at 11:24:12 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston

U really are something else. That is, how you contain all this stuff, write about it and stay sane..
Of my 7 siblings, the one closest to me in age, a settled queen raising money for charities, is convinced that the reason I got hooked on dope, is cos I became socially/politically aware TOO young. Whether he’s right or not maybe irrelevant, but to to this day, he still teases me mercilessly about my reactions to things such as what u report below,

While I leap up and down enraged, he’s like, ‘hey sis, let me buy you another hot-choc, & don’t be wasting your precious time wondering how people can be so evil, off the wall, self-seeking etc etc. THEY Just are!”

I have a need to do what Patrick did with this one, and say it was stupidity rather than mal-intent to preserve good mental health..

This could be a long one, but I’ll snip it here, as it’s not related to Ibogaine, and we all gotta work on it

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 27 June 2002 00:45
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] bush knew?

>But I wouldn’t attribute malicious intent to what can be covered under the
general heading: complete stupidity. <

Ahhh Patrick, were that it were so simple. Unfortunately, in my own humble opinion, I only wish we could blame it on federal stupidity.
Here’s a little, well, a long piece on just this question- whether it was “incompetence” on the part of our drug trafficking, druggie prosecuting feds, or if history shows us that they, those very same feds who have lied to us about this, that, and the other, are more than capable of much more heinous and¬†nefarious acts than I for one would like to believe, (oh, like sending 58,000 Americans to their deaths for an evil, pointless, stupid war in Vietnam should tip us off to just what they are capable of) but can’t help but suspect…I mean, for crying out loud, the same FBI guy who Sen. Danforth (who perpetrated his own whitewash of the Waco travesty)¬†accused of withholding information on the federal murders of 80-some Davidians is now in charge of the FBI information about Sept. 11 that Congress wants- see

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0206/S00148.htm
Head of Sept. 11 Probe Allegedly Obstructed Danforth’s Waco Inquiry
Former FBI Counsel Held Onto Papers

and here’s the examination of the “stupidity or incompetence” theory-

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0206/S00123.htm
9/11 “Conspiracies” and the Defactualisation of Analysis
How Ideologues on the Left and Right Theorise Vacuously to Support Baseless Supposition
A Reply to ZNet’s ‘Conspiracy Theory?’ Section
http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm
By Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed*
http://www.globalresearch.org/

So, while this really doesn’t have a heck of a lot to do with ibogaine, I felt the need to insist that it could be a LOT worse than stupidity.;-(((((((
Peace,
PReston

—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] bush knew?

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 12:20:38PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Hi all! Wow, reading through all this in my email over
| the afternoon. Whew! I’m not even started yet, but
| before I do I have to ask this question. I started
| reading the other lists a few days ago on Mindvox and
| is that reporter for real? He really is that dumb
| isn’t he? That’s so scary, he doesn’t at all
| understand that you’re playing with him?

Apparently, no…

| Nevermind him, I am curious do you plan to do anything
| with bushknew now? They were sitting on register com
| but now they’ve started going to mindvox. You should
| do something with them!

We are, we will, it all Grinds Forward.  Stay Tuned!

| Which was my next question. Do you really think Bush
| did know?

Well, this is just my opinion, and it depends on whatcha mean by “know.”
Did all those documents indicating awareness of possible terrorist threats
exist…?¬† Yeah.¬† Did *somebody* attempt to brief him ’bout it?¬† Prolly.
Has “our” government taken the events of 9/11 and used them to grab all
sorts of powers they’ve wanted for a while anyway: absa-fucking-lootley.

But I wouldn’t attribute malicious intent to what can be covered under the
general heading: complete stupidity.

Being realistic, what happened…¬† “Look!¬† More Terrorist Threats!”¬† Okay,
well then, throw those into the Extremely Urgent Super-Critical, So Hot
it’s On Fire wheelbarrow of crap, and file it in the TO BE LOOKED INTO!
warehouse, over in pile 492, 3 feet down, to the left…¬† I’ve got other
problems right now, like that vote count thing and my approval rating.

<Shrug>

After that…¬† Yah know, I dunno.¬† Alls I duz know is, mostly when
TeRroRists get busted, the headline is sumthin’ like, “Arab person
arrested with a homemade, lawnmover engine powered atomic bomb.  Police
found the suspect in a 1971 Chevy Van, after a routine stop for a broken
taillight.”¬† Those buildings falling down going boom, well, that was
pretty fuckin’ impressive…

| I have to ask this one, I think Carla said that once
| when she asked about the tag lines on mindvox, I know
| I will regret it but is this a real joke or a joke
| joke or what??
|
| “Appearing at CBGB’s: Unicorn Rainbow and The
| Trustafarians!”

Obviously you Just Don’t Understand, the *pain* and heartache of it all.
You’ve never been to the, “Yo, daddy, send the money FEDEX motherfucker,
and don’t be givin’ me no personal check either, get it CERT E FIED, or
better still just stuff hunnet dollah billz into the envelope yo!¬† Or I’m
gonna call mom and tell her about all your mistresses,” support group.

Unicorn Rainbow raps about the TRUTH, the heartache, the pain of being out
on the streets, strung-out, wid’ nuthin’ but a lousy $15K a month from
your parents, who hate you.

It ain’t funny beeyatch.

Aside from all that, it’s not new.¬† It’s Revolutionary Evolution.¬† It
spins from the great work of Gweeds (he’s the one on the right, who is
not Mr-T):

http://www.wiretap.com/~marc/pics/may00.jpg

And the gut-wrenching sounds of the Hawd Gankstuh Rappuhs MCs Wid Ghatz

| All of you are so so sick and beautiful ūüôā

Thanks honey, right back atcha.

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 27, 2002 at 11:06:50 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick

yoh! as u say.. it was originally just a comment based on the fact that you
did such a good job in London.

Then Kerry pops up and calls you an alpha male(!)- still trying to find out
exactly what that means.., and I recalled the only thing about your pres. in
London that bothered me at all; you kinda got all male/drug war story-teller
at some points, and my past synanon brain-washing kicked in: “if it was that
f exciting, why the hell did u give it up? Stop showing off big boy etc!” It
was probably jealousy as much as anything else that I couldn’t have the same
opportunity as you.

BUT there is a bigger issue here also: I can’t speak for Preston, or other
activists/Ibogaine guides and others on this list (on conference circuits),
but I can say that I personally, have become CHRONICALLY bored of listening
to non-addicts babble on about the injustice of all the various cruel myriad
of the war on drugs: almost to the point where I wish we had our own
conferences. And I guess that’s where the likes of you are vital. However
much ego an addict gets from doing talks at conference circuits, their life
experience will ground them firmly, and return them to human humble
articulacy, where this is NOT the case for many non-addict speakers, and F,
does it show. There have been moments at such events, where I have literally
felt physically sick observing all the ego-mania that marches on..

As a matter of interest, is there anybody else on this list who feels even
vaguely similar, or has ideas about ‘our own conferences’ ideas? We have a
bit of money for stuff like that

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 26 June 2002 21:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:57:08PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt]
wrote:

| PK,
|
| Watch out angry female on the sorta war-path!

It’s all-good. ¬†I love angry chicks, that’s such a sexy energy to
manifest.

| PK, I kinda took umbrage to you saying, if someone wants to pay me etc, as
| I’ve never been paid for conference work, but maybe that’s the difference
| between an alpha male with self-esteem, who has no qualms with asking for
| $$$, (not to mention the fact that who else could do that job anyway? the
| only others I know are dead, or not into the job…) and ¬†a ? female with
| less S-E bla di bla..

Dunno… ¬†That wasn’t exactly whut I meant. ¬†I don’t need a speaker’s fee
for the ibogaine stuff. ¬†I will always do that for nothing — unless
someone else on the panel is being paid, in which case, yo, pass the cash
motherfucker — cuz, well, ibogaine is GOOD and I believe in it.

What I do need are tickets and a hotel, or in the worst case, someplace to
crash.  I cannot start bouncing through every single drug policy
conference, because it’s like what… ¬†Okay, I’m gonna quit my job,
collect welfare, and hitch hike across the country to these things?  It
has to be a conference where ibogaine can be fit into it.  This will make
it okay with whom I work for.

I’m not sure any of this is a discussion even, the London ibogaine
conference was highly successful and worked for everyone, I think it
actually made money after people’s plane tickets and hotels were paid
for.

None of it’s even that black and white. ¬†I do care — which should be
obvious — about the war on human beings (drugs), “addiction,” all these
issues.  I may not spend 100% of my time and energy attempting to be as
sensitive and touchy-feely ’bout it all as humanly possible, but <shrug>
it doesn’t change anything.

If there’s anyplace you feel I should show up and speak ’bout something,
then just lemme know, Dana already does that.  Chances are something can
be worked out.

I am just, sadly, at this moment in time, NOT independently wealthy.

Patrick

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 27, 2002 at 12:31:26 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘sandberg@onetel.net.uk’
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Nick, leave the lassy alone! You may be right and everything, but she means well.
She’s coming from a loving place; that’s ultimately all i ever care about.

Naive? yep, that’s me,¬†and I don’t wanna sound ungrateful for your support, cos I do appreciate it, but I’m a sorta big gal now, I can handle it.

How ya doing these days anyway; never see anyone apart from ‘on’ this list!

Andria E-
Hi Andria, I’m good, living down at a commune called Osho Leela in Dorset and having a great time. back in london for a couple of days at the moment letting my flat out to hempman Tony. don’t know about the eden project gig, btw, try hats maybe.
Didn’t think I was being unfair to Linda, just trying to point out a little of how the mind works.
12 steppers go to places like this too. They get to somewhere where the process is getting scary but instead of speaking about this they just start pushing the fear outward trying to pressurize others to join them in the journey. it’s a routine thing and imo you gotta pull people up for it. once they start to talk about their fear things’ll get easier. It’s a protection and it’s necessary for a while, but people really do get stuck here and go on to spend their whole lives proseletysing, never getting another glance in the mirror. Just wanted to bring a little general clarity here, not being personal about Linda who I’m sure is a lovely person.
lots of love
Nick

ps. posting this to list as I figure others are interested in this stuff, hope you don’t mind.

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Everything on the list today
Date: June 26, 2002 at 10:05:44 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’ve just read all of this from today and all I wanted
to say is all of you are so deranged and so beautiful
ūüôā

I said this before when somebody said that Preston was
posting really long messages and should stop, that I
felt exactly the opposite because I love reading them
and seeing updates here when there is new material on
drugwar.com. I know all of you or some of you or
Patrick and Preston are doing something with bushknew
but this is sooooo hysterical. I think I’ve spent 20
minutes laughing.

What I really want to know is when will Unicorn
Rainbow and the Trustafarians be appearing at CBGB’s?
I’ll come to NY for that ūüôā

All of you are soooooooooo messed up and so sweet at
the same time. You’re talented and crazy but sweet.
The only things Mindvox is missing is a big KEEP OUT
sign. I’ve just figured it out, a lot of you are the
Lost Boys. You’re little kids who never grew up.

That is so great! ūüôā This list is so cool. It does
have ibogaine and real information but it has so much
that’s fun and nice energy. I forget who I think
vectro posted that? But it’s true. If this represents
what ibogaine is, then it’s a good thing, because
every other drug list I have ever read is really
depressing. This is the only place I’ve ever come and
laughed really hard.

thanks guys ūüôā

Carla B

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 9:02:00 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:57:18PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:
| >To reiterate: PLEASE do not keep dumping this stuff to THIS list
| okay? <
|
| Ooops, ok, please excuse, I’ll join Carrie and refrain.;-))
| Ahh, darn it, I just took up bandwidth writing this short note, didn’t I?
| Peace,
| Preston

It’s not your fault, you have a Mysterious Disease.

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 8:57:18 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To reiterate: PLEASE do not keep dumping this stuff to THIS list
okay? <

Ooops, ok, please excuse, I’ll join Carrie and refrain.;-))
Ahh, darn it, I just took up bandwidth writing this short note, didn’t I?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:12:21PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

Carrie,

Hey, yeah, that one — the “I will NOT be digested by Elves!” message —
is quite possibly the most brilliant thing ever written in the history of
our planet.¬† One day I’d like to have the whole entire thing inscribed
upon my tombstone in a really small font.

Every day I thank God that some do0d sitting in his basement carefully
saved almost the entire usenet on magtape and gave it to google.  There
are so many forgotten gems.

The MindVox customer service collection is pretty groovy too; “and, and,
then I called customer service and this drunk guy screamed at me and told
me to stop making the phone ring because his head was going to explode.
He called me an idiot and slammed down the phone.  I was emotionally
scarred and i’m gonna sue everybody!”

All that being said, this shit is starting to build, so please do not dump
it to the ibogaine list.  Please?  Save it for vox.  www.bushknew.com is
also live, and we’ll make it light up with material Any Minute Now.

To reiterate: PLEASE do not keep dumping this stuff to THIS list
okay?  There are already many messages here every day and growing,
it makes it hard to sort through for people interested in that
IBOGAINE thing.

Thanks,

Patrick

| > Hmmm, sounds familiar, even nowadays with my nasty
| > cigarette habit.
| > Peace,
| > Preston
|
| You guys are are great ūüėČ
|
| I’m reading both mindvox lists now and I’m not sure if
| the other list is useless or the most useful thing
| I’ve ever found, I don’t think I’ve laughed this hard
| in years. My sides hurt and I’m dizzy.
|
| Earth to Patrick, that reporter is not kidding. You’re
| a front for the GOP! And he’s investigating all of
| you.
|
| Here’s what you get investigating Patrick:
|
| http://groups.google.com/groups?q=patrick+kroupa&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF8&safe=off&selm=3462%40news.duke.edu&rnum=5

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] bush knew?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 8:43:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 07:44:59PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| >But I wouldn’t attribute malicious intent to what can be covered under the
| general heading: complete stupidity. <
|
| Ahhh Patrick, were that it were so simple. Unfortunately, in my own
| humble opinion, I only wish we could blame it on federal stupidity.
| Here’s a little, well, a long piece on just this question- whether it
| was “incompetence” on the part of our drug trafficking, druggie
| prosecuting feds, or if history shows us that they, those very same feds
| who have lied to us about this, that, and the other, are more than
| capable of much more heinous and nefarious acts than I for one would
| like to believe, (oh, like sending 58,000 Americans to their deaths for

Preston,

Hey, I don’t particularily doubt that you are correct. ¬†I simply don’t
know… ¬†I have never voted for anybody in my entire life thus far. ¬†And
on one hand I have Bruce, who will EXPLAIN why the Republicans are
correct, on the other I have Deborah. ¬†And she’s uhm, very CLEAR on things
and stuff, “honey, sit down, allow me to explain the top 101 reasons why
George Bush is SATAN!” ¬†And if Bruce sorta believes he’s right, Deborah
absolutely, totally, and completely believes the Satan bit.  Saying she
doesn’t think much of Bush is a massive, major, extreme understatement.

So, basically, I’ve tuned them both out. ¬†I intend to start voting, as a
newly reintegrated member of society, and who I’ll be voting for are
prolly Libertarian Party candidates, because fundamentally I believe I
have the right to be left alone to live my life in peace without being
harassed.

The input I have on that from Bruce is, “Yes, absolutely. ¬†They rule. ¬†But
they’re never gonna win.” ¬†From Deborah, “that’s just your sociopathy
honey.” ¬†<Shrug>

Mostly, I believe anything is possible, nothing much surprises me, and
wherever I’ve been in the world I always find I have exactly the same
rights.  The right to do whatever I want and not get caught.  If I do get
caught I have the right to use whatever means I can to get my neck out of
the noose.  I have the right to survive.  Everything else is just wishful
thinking.

Somehow though, I don’t actually believe the above anymore… ¬†And have
some hope. ¬†Not much, but not much is more than none. ¬†I’ve never been too
good at that whole entire, “society” concept. ¬†There are just undercovers
who wanna harass me, secret service and FBI do0dz who wanna harass me,
large groups of idiots who always want me to DO something they want, and
it’s like, no thanks, I opt out altogether. ¬†I’m not a sociopath, people
are human beings, but all these rules, laws, regulations, is just this
endlessly twisted pile of crap, designed to control and limit me, so like,
take it, and stick it.

What’s funny is, the single thing that has pulled me into this whole
scenario and made me at least attempt to untangle little pieces of the
mess is drug dependence and ibogaine.  Because in a world of endless
abstractions and blurry boundaries between the concepts of right and
wrong, the war on drugs is simply WRONG, and the fact that something
fucking WORKS for drug dependence and is being completely ignored… ¬†Well
that’s wrong too. ¬†Being a slave is no fun. ¬†So Free the Niggers, Let my
People Go.  Woo Hoo!

Pardon me, just sorting out my head through writing, which is what works
for me. ¬†You’re all just the audience at the moment. ¬†Didn’t mean to dump
this all here.

Patrick

Preston: otay, emailing youz inna sec.

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: [ibogaine] bushknew
Date: June 26, 2002 at 8:08:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I won’t post more to this list about bushknew, but right now you know it’s hitting mindvox http://www.bushknew.net http://www.bushknew.org work .com doesn’t yet. I guess that’s the one your working on. .:vector:.
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] bush knew?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 7:44:59 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>But I wouldn’t attribute malicious intent to what can be covered under the
general heading: complete stupidity. <

Ahhh Patrick, were that it were so simple. Unfortunately, in my own humble opinion, I only wish we could blame it on federal stupidity.
Here’s a little, well, a long piece on just this question- whether it was “incompetence” on the part of our drug trafficking, druggie prosecuting feds, or if history shows us that they, those very same feds who have lied to us about this, that, and the other, are more than capable of much more heinous and¬†nefarious acts than I for one would like to believe, (oh, like sending 58,000 Americans to their deaths for an evil, pointless, stupid war in Vietnam should tip us off to just what they are capable of) but can’t help but suspect…I mean, for crying out loud, the same FBI guy who Sen. Danforth (who perpetrated his own whitewash of the Waco travesty)¬†accused of withholding information on the federal murders of 80-some Davidians is now in charge of the FBI information about Sept. 11 that Congress wants- see

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0206/S00148.htm
Head of Sept. 11 Probe Allegedly Obstructed Danforth’s Waco Inquiry
Former FBI Counsel Held Onto Papers

and here’s the examination of the “stupidity or incompetence” theory-

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0206/S00123.htm
9/11 “Conspiracies” and the Defactualisation of Analysis
How Ideologues on the Left and Right Theorise Vacuously to Support Baseless Supposition
A Reply to ZNet’s ‘Conspiracy Theory?’ Section
http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm
By Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed*
http://www.globalresearch.org/

So, while this really doesn’t have a heck of a lot to do with ibogaine, I felt the need to insist that it could be a LOT worse than stupidity.;-(((((((
Peace,
PReston

—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] bush knew?

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 12:20:38PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Hi all! Wow, reading through all this in my email over
| the afternoon. Whew! I’m not even started yet, but
| before I do I have to ask this question. I started
| reading the other lists a few days ago on Mindvox and
| is that reporter for real? He really is that dumb
| isn’t he? That’s so scary, he doesn’t at all
| understand that you’re playing with him?

Apparently, no…

| Nevermind him, I am curious do you plan to do anything
| with bushknew now? They were sitting on register com
| but now they’ve started going to mindvox. You should
| do something with them!

We are, we will, it all Grinds Forward.  Stay Tuned!

| Which was my next question. Do you really think Bush
| did know?

Well, this is just my opinion, and it depends on whatcha mean by “know.”
Did all those documents indicating awareness of possible terrorist threats
exist…?¬† Yeah.¬† Did *somebody* attempt to brief him ’bout it?¬† Prolly.
Has “our” government taken the events of 9/11 and used them to grab all
sorts of powers they’ve wanted for a while anyway: absa-fucking-lootley.

But I wouldn’t attribute malicious intent to what can be covered under the
general heading: complete stupidity.

Being realistic, what happened…¬† “Look!¬† More Terrorist Threats!”¬† Okay,
well then, throw those into the Extremely Urgent Super-Critical, So Hot
it’s On Fire wheelbarrow of crap, and file it in the TO BE LOOKED INTO!
warehouse, over in pile 492, 3 feet down, to the left…¬† I’ve got other
problems right now, like that vote count thing and my approval rating.

<Shrug>

After that…¬† Yah know, I dunno.¬† Alls I duz know is, mostly when
TeRroRists get busted, the headline is sumthin’ like, “Arab person
arrested with a homemade, lawnmover engine powered atomic bomb.  Police
found the suspect in a 1971 Chevy Van, after a routine stop for a broken
taillight.”¬† Those buildings falling down going boom, well, that was
pretty fuckin’ impressive…

| I have to ask this one, I think Carla said that once
| when she asked about the tag lines on mindvox, I know
| I will regret it but is this a real joke or a joke
| joke or what??
|
| “Appearing at CBGB’s: Unicorn Rainbow and The
| Trustafarians!”

Obviously you Just Don’t Understand, the *pain* and heartache of it all.
You’ve never been to the, “Yo, daddy, send the money FEDEX motherfucker,
and don’t be givin’ me no personal check either, get it CERT E FIED, or
better still just stuff hunnet dollah billz into the envelope yo!¬† Or I’m
gonna call mom and tell her about all your mistresses,” support group.

Unicorn Rainbow raps about the TRUTH, the heartache, the pain of being out
on the streets, strung-out, wid’ nuthin’ but a lousy $15K a month from
your parents, who hate you.

It ain’t funny beeyatch.

Aside from all that, it’s not new.¬† It’s Revolutionary Evolution.¬† It
spins from the great work of Gweeds (he’s the one on the right, who is
not Mr-T):

http://www.wiretap.com/~marc/pics/may00.jpg

And the gut-wrenching sounds of the Hawd Gankstuh Rappuhs MCs Wid Ghatz

| All of you are so so sick and beautiful ūüôā

Thanks honey, right back atcha.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 7:24:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:12:21PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

Carrie,

Hey, yeah, that one — the “I will NOT be digested by Elves!” message —
is quite possibly the most brilliant thing ever written in the history of
our planet. ¬†One day I’d like to have the whole entire thing inscribed
upon my tombstone in a really small font.

Every day I thank God that some do0d sitting in his basement carefully
saved almost the entire usenet on magtape and gave it to google.  There
are so many forgotten gems.

The MindVox customer service collection is pretty groovy too; “and, and,
then I called customer service and this drunk guy screamed at me and told
me to stop making the phone ring because his head was going to explode.
He called me an idiot and slammed down the phone.  I was emotionally
scarred and i’m gonna sue everybody!”

All that being said, this shit is starting to build, so please do not dump
it to the ibogaine list.  Please?  Save it for vox.  www.bushknew.com is
also live, and we’ll make it light up with material Any Minute Now.

To reiterate: PLEASE do not keep dumping this stuff to THIS list
okay?  There are already many messages here every day and growing,
it makes it hard to sort through for people interested in that
IBOGAINE thing.

Thanks,

Patrick

| > Hmmm, sounds familiar, even nowadays with my nasty
| > cigarette habit.
| > Peace,
| > Preston
|
| You guys are are great ūüėČ
|
| I’m reading both mindvox lists now and I’m not sure if
| the other list is useless or the most useful thing
| I’ve ever found, I don’t think I’ve laughed this hard
| in years. My sides hurt and I’m dizzy.
|
| Earth to Patrick, that reporter is not kidding. You’re
| a front for the GOP! And he’s investigating all of
| you.
|
| Here’s what you get investigating Patrick:
|
| http://groups.google.com/groups?q=patrick+kroupa&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF8&safe=off&selm=3462%40news.duke.edu&rnum=5

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 7:12:21 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
I agree that it’s probably better to pull up
someone u love (or simply care about) and just say
‘hey, what’s up can I help;’ but if they turn around
and say F*** U, whatcha gonna do? My life experience
has shown me that the ‘alpha male’ response as you
put it can mean a no. of different things, BUT a)
certainly it means I’m damaged, and I’m smart and I
ain’t listening to anyone right NOW, and b) how the
F*** fo u know what I need/want? and so it goes on.
<

Hmmm, sounds familiar, even nowadays with my nasty
cigarette habit.
Peace,
Preston

You guys are are great ūüėČ

I’m reading both mindvox lists now and I’m not sure if
the other list is useless or the most useful thing
I’ve ever found, I don’t think I’ve laughed this hard
in years. My sides hurt and I’m dizzy.

Earth to Patrick, that reporter is not kidding. You’re
a front for the GOP! And he’s investigating all of
you.

Here’s what you get investigating Patrick:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=patrick+kroupa&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF8&safe=off&selm=3462%40news.duke.edu&rnum=5

From: Jonathan Magid (magidj@cellbio.duke.edu)
Subject: the best posting i have ever seei
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre
View: (This is the only article in this thread) |
Original Format
Date: 1992-06-23 18:15:38 PST

this is the best posting i have ever read in n number
of years on the net.
more entertaining than richh, more wicked than the
bofh, a greater comic
genius than carasso himself!

note the clever grammar and spelling flame baits. the
hot button
cracker insinuations! this is obviously the work of a
master baiter! (well lets not go into his personal
habits…)

(or perhaps its just the best case *against* public
usenet access…)

From:  /*removed to protect the innocent and the
guilty*/
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.drugs,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Phantom Access (was Re: Legion of Doom)
Message-ID: <BqBnoy.Bux@world.std.com>
Date: 23 Jun 92 23:24:33 GMT
References: <9hmlypj.blain@netcom.com>
<1992Jun22.155753.27087@well.sf.ca.us>
<BqBn9v.Ays@world.std.com>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline,
MA
Lines: 85
Xref: news.duke.edu comp.org.eff.talk:3565
alt.drugs:12590 alt.censorship:5788

I am reposting my message that was unlawfuly deleted
by hackers from the
usenet usuing illegal methods of software.

I am not crazy or stupid I am aupset by things I
have the right to be upset
about this has not stuarted because of nothing I had
reasons to be angry before
and tried to respovle problems before but they are
never listening to.  Before
I aever posted here I sent mail to people on many
chances.  Patrick Lroapa has
replied to me two times for the over 15 message I
sent.  One weas taking what
I said as a joke abd being patronizing, the other one
was this thing

Subject: I am VICKS cough syrup
Post: 12 of 19
From: digital@mindvox.phantom.com (Lord Digital)
Message-ID: <JRsiLB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 May 92 01:22:06 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access Technologies, Inc.]
node: MindVox

I embody Vicks cough syrup and live the dream.  I do
not fear to traverse the
sacred spaces of the vast untapped collective Nyquil
dream that reaches far
far back into man’s half-forgotten mist-shrouded
(these places are always mist
shourded, sometimes even swathed) past.

I dare to cross the ocean of grape soda and say onto
the people: Interplaq
signifies the death knell of dental floss.

(shake shake)

.s
/s
/ex
/exit
/save message
^D

/sabe massage
/help me
.
dot
period

fuck

Turtles have hard shells and crawl around in slime a
lot.  I have been
noticing this lately.  When I was very little we used
to live near a
golf course and my dog would bring home turtles all
covered in doggy
drool and hiding, but then later they’d come out and
crawl around and
stuff, and I really miss that.  I want a turtle.

Wht the F**k is that suppsed to mean?  tits drunked
or drugged out
bulshit.  Youl note that the name says Lord DIgital
not Patrick Kroupa, I
have received nasty letters from people all over, len
rose has writen be
aggreveting mail, there is a account named “dronwed
fish” on phantom.cmo
that is sending me 15 yes fifteeen copies of the
goddam ross perto mailing
list, I dont want the doamn ross perot mailing list
not even one copy fo it
I pay for my disk spacem and online time and they are
sendig me junk. and now
I am put on the elfkins digest listing, I never orderd
that eflkidn anything
I dont want to erad this sick s**t what the hell is
wrong with people who
think theyre elves?  I dont want this junK!!!!!!

Nobody at phantom acces has ever shown me the
courtesy of taking me
seriolsy think its ok that because they look at me
they can judge me for
things they cant and I will not be digested.  I am
told some mailing lists
are digesting aeverything ehre into some cyberpunk
mailing listing groups
of how midnvox is beginning and my posts belong to me
and it is illegal to
digest them, I will not allow it.  I resver all the
rights to my mesages
and dont allow them to be digested.

This shows the problem with phantom acess again,
there have been over 100
meesages here and noone has had the courtesy to reply
to any of them from
phantom acess.  Where the hell is Krouap?  he is never
here, he never posts
anywhere, he is never in irc, he doesnt answer my mail
now.  What kknd of
company is that and mindvox is not accepting my logon.
I have called and it
does not let me online.  THat is illegal and I want to
access it if I pay
money I am allowed to access it like ocmpuserve or any
other company.

I can type and I will not be judged by tping skills,
I have them when I
edit it before and upload it and I will do that to
show some smug smarteasses
that I ahve the right to m opinons.

Still no stupid handle

David j Sanders


Jonathan Magid     magidj@marimba.cellbio.duke.edu
Virtual pizza Delivery ™::faxed in 30 cycles or
less or you get it
—————————————-FREE!!!———————–
////////////////////fodder for the Kibo line eater.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “JONATHAN R. ARMSTRONG” <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 26, 2002 at 5:43:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PS РDoes anyone know anything about Ultramm for pain relief.  I still
get bad headaches that nothing over-the-counter works on.  My mom has
some Ultramm which her doctor said wasn’t a narcotic, but my doc said it
can still make you high? ¬†Any advice appreciated…

Ultram (aka Tramadol) is not an opiate, to my recollection, but it does
produce euphoria that could lead to habituation, if perhaps not full-on
addiction.  A Tramadol is about the equivalent of a Tylenol-3, not a huge
deal for someone addicted to benzos or smack, surely – and its price is so
expensive that a lot of doctors have questioned why it’s on the market in
the first place.

I believe you can still buy it online, just look around.

From: “Rick Venglarcik” > >Reply-To:
ibogaine@mindvox.com > >To: > >Subject: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:42:16 -0400

I am curious…How many people on this list have been opiate addicted,
have only used Ibogaine 1-2x, and have been drug free over a year?

By “drug-free,” I refer to not using any illegal drug, and/or abusing
alcohol or prescription medications, or other substances to catch a
lift.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666

Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

<< RickVenglarcik.vcf >>

________________________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here

From: “Les Smith” <leesmithjr@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction
Date: June 26, 2002 at 4:41:12 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Bill:

12-Step Alternatives are available. Please write to me “back-channel” at leesmithjr@prodigy.net for some suggestions.

Les

——-Original Message——-

From: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 04:51:46 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction

One of my best friends is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction.

The detox process sounds awful.

I don’t really know what to do right now except try to be
supportive, but he’s already talking about craving a drink.
Is there any real way to help him?

I suggest finding an Al-anon meeting and going to it.

It’s for people who are connected to alcoholics. Lots of
experience to be found there.

Bill Ross
.

____________________________________________________
IncrediMail – Email has finally evolved – Click Here

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 26, 2002 at 4:48:16 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:57:08PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| PK,
|
| Watch out angry female on the sorta war-path!

It’s all-good. ¬†I love angry chicks, that’s such a sexy energy to
manifest.

| PK, I kinda took umbrage to you saying, if someone wants to pay me etc, as
| I’ve never been paid for conference work, but maybe that’s the difference
| between an alpha male with self-esteem, who has no qualms with asking for
| $$$, (not to mention the fact that who else could do that job anyway? the
| only others I know are dead, or not into the job…) and ¬†a ? female with
| less S-E bla di bla..

Dunno… ¬†That wasn’t exactly whut I meant. ¬†I don’t need a speaker’s fee
for the ibogaine stuff. ¬†I will always do that for nothing — unless
someone else on the panel is being paid, in which case, yo, pass the cash
motherfucker — cuz, well, ibogaine is GOOD and I believe in it.

What I do need are tickets and a hotel, or in the worst case, someplace to
crash.  I cannot start bouncing through every single drug policy
conference, because it’s like what… ¬†Okay, I’m gonna quit my job,
collect welfare, and hitch hike across the country to these things?  It
has to be a conference where ibogaine can be fit into it.  This will make
it okay with whom I work for.

I’m not sure any of this is a discussion even, the London ibogaine
conference was highly successful and worked for everyone, I think it
actually made money after people’s plane tickets and hotels were paid
for.

None of it’s even that black and white. ¬†I do care — which should be
obvious — about the war on human beings (drugs), “addiction,” all these
issues.  I may not spend 100% of my time and energy attempting to be as
sensitive and touchy-feely ’bout it all as humanly possible, but <shrug>
it doesn’t change anything.

If there’s anyplace you feel I should show up and speak ’bout something,
then just lemme know, Dana already does that.  Chances are something can
be worked out.

I am just, sadly, at this moment in time, NOT independently wealthy.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 26, 2002 at 4:36:30 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:20:20PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| Thanks for the input.  I am speaking of one individual who is
| considering ibogaine treatment…a friend of his is willing to go along
| in order to monitor…thus the use of the term “they.” ¬†I have provided
| links to ibogaine sites to both of them.  The user has tried methadone a
| number of times, detoxed, and then ends up relapsing within a few
| months. The friend who will accompany him is a non-user and is very
| supportive…they’ve known each other since age 8 or 9. ¬†Due to a number
| of factors (mainly $), they can probably swing a “european vacation,”
| but would be unable to afford to travel to Europe again for a year or
| longer.  He is 26 years old, has no significant medical problems, is
| unwilling to try methadone again, and has an awful lot to lose if daily
| opiate use continues.

Rick,

Well hey… ¬†If he still has a variety of things to lose, then he sounds
like an ideal candidate.  As Howard pointed out, the most frightening
thing can be just dealing with the reality that you’re gonna run out of
excuses. ¬†No, you don’t have to take 3 months off from your job, using
that as a reason to stay sprung.  You can go from fucked to unfucked in
’bout 3 days flat — less than that, but tossing in some time for
processing post-ibogaine.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] bush knew?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 3:54:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 12:20:38PM -0700], [Carrie Rollins] wrote:

| Hi all! Wow, reading through all this in my email over
| the afternoon. Whew! I’m not even started yet, but
| before I do I have to ask this question. I started
| reading the other lists a few days ago on Mindvox and
| is that reporter for real? He really is that dumb
| isn’t he? That’s so scary, he doesn’t at all
| understand that you’re playing with him?

Apparently, no…

| Nevermind him, I am curious do you plan to do anything
| with bushknew now? They were sitting on register com
| but now they’ve started going to mindvox. You should
| do something with them!

We are, we will, it all Grinds Forward.  Stay Tuned!

| Which was my next question. Do you really think Bush
| did know?

Well, this is just my opinion, and it depends on whatcha mean by “know.”
Did all those documents indicating awareness of possible terrorist threats
exist…? ¬†Yeah. ¬†Did *somebody* attempt to brief him ’bout it? ¬†Prolly.
Has “our” government taken the events of 9/11 and used them to grab all
sorts of powers they’ve wanted for a while anyway: absa-fucking-lootley.

But I wouldn’t attribute malicious intent to what can be covered under the
general heading: complete stupidity.

Being realistic, what happened… ¬†“Look! ¬†More Terrorist Threats!” ¬†Okay,
well then, throw those into the Extremely Urgent Super-Critical, So Hot
it’s On Fire wheelbarrow of crap, and file it in the TO BE LOOKED INTO!
warehouse, over in pile 492, 3 feet down, to the left… ¬†I’ve got other
problems right now, like that vote count thing and my approval rating.

<Shrug>

After that… ¬†Yah know, I dunno. ¬†Alls I duz know is, mostly when
TeRroRists get busted, the headline is sumthin’ like, “Arab person
arrested with a homemade, lawnmover engine powered atomic bomb.  Police
found the suspect in a 1971 Chevy Van, after a routine stop for a broken
taillight.” ¬†Those buildings falling down going boom, well, that was
pretty fuckin’ impressive…

| I have to ask this one, I think Carla said that once
| when she asked about the tag lines on mindvox, I know
| I will regret it but is this a real joke or a joke
| joke or what??
|
| “Appearing at CBGB’s: Unicorn Rainbow and The
| Trustafarians!”

Obviously you Just Don’t Understand, the *pain* and heartache of it all.
You’ve never been to the, “Yo, daddy, send the money FEDEX motherfucker,
and don’t be givin’ me no personal check either, get it CERT E FIED, or
better still just stuff hunnet dollah billz into the envelope yo! ¬†Or I’m
gonna call mom and tell her about all your mistresses,” support group.

Unicorn Rainbow raps about the TRUTH, the heartache, the pain of being out
on the streets, strung-out, wid’ nuthin’ but a lousy $15K a month from
your parents, who hate you.

It ain’t funny beeyatch.

Aside from all that, it’s not new. ¬†It’s Revolutionary Evolution. ¬†It
spins from the great work of Gweeds (he’s the one on the right, who is
not Mr-T):

http://www.wiretap.com/~marc/pics/may00.jpg

And the gut-wrenching sounds of the Hawd Gankstuh Rappuhs MCs Wid Ghatz

| All of you are so so sick and beautiful ūüôā

Thanks honey, right back atcha.

Patrick

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] bush knew?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 3:20:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi all! Wow, reading through all this in my email over
the afternoon. Whew! I’m not even started yet, but
before I do I have to ask this question. I started
reading the other lists a few days ago on Mindvox and
is that reporter for real? He really is that dumb
isn’t he? That’s so scary, he doesn’t at all
understand that you’re playing with him?

Nevermind him, I am curious do you plan to do anything
with bushknew now? They were sitting on register com
but now they’ve started going to mindvox. You should
do something with them!

Which was my next question. Do you really think Bush
did know?

And how how how did you manage that one. A few days
after the attacks I was still so freaking out, you
people are thinking hmmm, why don’t I register
bushknew. Being antisocial must be so great ūüôā

I have to ask this one, I think Carla said that once
when she asked about the tag lines on mindvox, I know
I will regret it but is this a real joke or a joke
joke or what??

“Appearing at CBGB’s: Unicorn Rainbow and The
Trustafarians!”

All of you are so so sick and beautiful ūüôā

Hi Patrick, Preston, Dave, Howard, Bill, everyone!

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 2:59:13 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>¬†I agree that it’s probably better to pull up someone u love (or simply care about) and just say ‘hey, what’s up can I help;’ but if they turn around and say F*** U, whatcha gonna do? My life experience has shown me that the ‘alpha male’ response as you put it can mean a no. of different things, BUT a) certainly it means I’m damaged, and I’m smart and I ain’t listening to anyone right NOW, and b) how the F*** fo u know what I need/want? and so it goes on. <

Hmmm, sounds familiar, even nowadays with my nasty cigarette habit.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

Dear Kerry & PK ++++

I’m not sure that PK was advocating leaving people ‘alone to drown’ – i thought he was simply quoting a Leary study which indicated that a certain % of us untouched will make our own choices and get off dope anyway, and others (perhaps a larger % need more intervention)

As it happens, I agree that it’s probably better to pull up someone u love (or simply care about) and just say ‘hey, what’s up can I help;’ but if they turn around and say F*** U, whatcha gonna do? My life experience has shown me that the ‘alpha male’ response as you put it can mean a no. of different things, BUT a) certainly it means I’m damaged, and I’m smart and I ain’t listening to anyone right NOW, and b) how the F*** fo u know what I need/want? and so it goes on. At the end of the day, only the most skillful therapist will know how to deal with that without hurting themselves. I gave up (officially) pretending to ‘help’ all the diversity of humans we label dope-fiends. 2 many of us died, and I simply couldn’t bear it, and in my life this very day in fact, if someone does the ‘alpha male’ on me, I just say ‘i love u’ and see u later (when they might be not about to bite my F***ing head off!)

I dunno, I’m older; when I was a mere gal, I might endure being ‘alpha-maled’ but I don’t have time 4 it 2day; indeed, this is something I am grateful to 12-steppers for; they taught me to ‘Let go, and let some ovver geezer!!’

Gotta go

BTW, what’s an alpha male? I thought it was a very horny (sexual) monkey! (or male human) – think I lived with one of them till he died from some stupid virus.

BTW2, sorry I keep nrly-swearing; it’s my way of emphasizing points.

The fact that we have these discussions amongst us on this list, is, I think, healthy. I just wish I knew you all better, as it might be easier to know how to respond appropriately

Solidarity and affection from WARM (for a change) London

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Kerry Dawson [mailto:kdawsonais@yahoo.com]
Sent: 19 June 2002 23:29
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

I signed up for this list after reading some of your ibogaine articles and addiction pieces. My first thought was that you are an exception and every system has those. After joining this list I find more then a few exceptions which makes me question some of the work I do.
I don’t want to make anyone hate me but part of what I do is stage interventions on people at the request of their families or employers.
Patrick you’re speaking after ibogaine for those observations? Pre ibogaine I would think the success would be much lower then that. Because on this one I’d side with Rick and against you and Preston, coercion can and does work. Maybe not for you, either of you. I don’t know too much about Preston except what he writes here, he’s obviously a intelligent person much as yourself. To throw in 2 more cents without even trying to touch psychological motivation, you’re an alpha male with at least some antisocial tendency ūüėČ whose response is to attack anything and anyone who you feel is trying to control you.
You have excellent observations. What you have written about recovery after ibogaine is high quality. But as you yourself said, I’m unsure that your exact roadmap would work for too many other people. Whatever you brought to the table other then your heroin addiction, doesn’t look like it’s there with most of the clients I have worked with. Therapy, groups and yes medication, give some of them a better chance of developing what isn’t there, then just being let loose.
What you and Preston might feel is harming you or harassing you, are techniques that I would say help the majority. Not everyone and evidently not either of you.
I have no concept at all of after ibogaine, so maybe you are right. But saying people should be left alone to drown is not something I can agree with.
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:13:43PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| >>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

| >Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
| adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers?
| What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
| methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
| methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress
| sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
| because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I
| grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
| week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
| methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is
| much more toxic for a >human sy stem, from what I’ve read.
|
| Very good points. But are you talking here about legalizing heroin, or
| using it as an alternative for methadone? As far as half-life and
| medication administration goes, Methadone wins. From what I’ve read of
| Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin has
| fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment modality.
| However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
| Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.” In terms of

Uhm, I’ve used heroin since the age of 14, injecting since
my late teens… If I cut loose the problems that exist due to
prohibition and focus merely on the results of the molecule… Heroin is
much less harsh on your body than methadone. I’m pretty bored with it, so
I’m not gonna reprint my methadone rant yet again — much of which was
based upon the clinics I was in — but I experienced an entire series of
negative side-effects from methadone (or Methadose(R)!) which NEVER
occured for me using ANY type of heroin (powder or tar).

From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities. I had money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems. After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because some of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs! woo hoo!). I gained 35 pounds which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point it all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2 weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there is
white chalky crap all over my clothes… Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING. Obviously they were doing me no good, and chelating
agents are super-fine.

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree. methadone is a buncha crap, that
generates a towering mountain of side-effects, that do not exist under
heroin.

Yeah, everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit. The universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting healthier
and eating better now! Your teeth are getting all fucked up, because
people like sweets, and the fact it appears to take people who have
broken bones, 3-4 times the normal length of time to heal, is completely
normal.

Um… Sorry, that’s all a crock of shit.

This pertains to that Methadose crap, the It’s Just Like Tang! Add Water
and look, it’s METHADONE! and whomever makes that shit which looks like
lumpy glue suspended in spoiled milk and water… I dunno who makes the
latter two, but they are highly popular at NYC methadone clinics.

Dolophine pills and the methadone wafers, did NOT produce any of these
side-effects. I’m unsure how exactly they are modifying the molecule, I
haven’t ever pursued this. But there are s ignificant differences between
how these forms are metabolized.

| >On one hand I completely agree. On the other, it is very interesting
| >that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
| >short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
| >treatment. Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
|
| Here are a few references to support my position. The research on
| treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
| making the issue rather cloudy. However, I do agree with your statement
| that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.” The
| article I read most recently which gives my position stronger support, I
| have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
| little rat-hole of an office. The references below, as a matter of
| course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research that
| supports the contrary. I feel that the diffic ulties reside in poor
| research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment programming,
| and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
| “coercion.”

All the quoted research that appears below, is interesting. However,
generally, people doing research have a THEORY. They often — though not
always — follow this up by making the facts bend around the theory, and
display the “facts” in such a manner as to make the theory appear valid,
sound, and correct.

Everything is just a point of view and “facts” only get in the way of
things.

My point of view is everybody should be free to do whatever they want.
The “drug problem” is created by the “war on drugs.” Some people want to
be on drugs and have no desire to stop. God bless.

Lately I have actually been thinking a lot about “recovery,” or to be more
exact, how do you maintain post-ibogaine. Much of this thinking is the
result of being placed in a position where people who nobody else is
having any success with, are dumped on me. “Okay well, you told everybody
to go fuck themselves, and you made it. Here, this is another version of
you, do something with this, ‘cuz nobody else is having any luck.”

And what exactly do I tell people… If I process it, then general
overall concepts are consistent, and the single, absolute piece of advice
I give, is pretty much always the same: don’t bang up heroin. This has a
100% success rate if you wanna stay off heroin. .

Everything else… I don’t think I’ve ever said exactly the same thing
twice, ‘cuz everybody is different.

However… At nearly 3 years clean, and having been around, well, MANY
drug dependent individuals who are trying to stay clean… And looking at
the long-term, overall results — NOT based upon anyone’s proprietary data
or research, merely speaking >from my personal observations…

The conclusion I have arrived at, is that Timothy Leary’s neat little
study, which I should look up again, but to paraphrase it: before the LSD,
turn on, tune in, drop out, phase, while he was still establishment and
working at one of the more prestigious psychiatric hospitals, that had a
wonderful success rate with their patients, using all the most advanced
techniques… He ran a study. Their incredible success rate using
resulted in 1/3rd
of the clients getting better, 1/3rd staying the same, and 1/3rd getting
worse… Which was like, wow, great n’ shit.

So Tim took a group of patients and basically, left them to their own
devices, “do whatever the fuck you want.” And the outstanding results of
his study?

The breakdown was EXACTLY the same. 33% improved, 33% no change, 33%
worse. (throw some .3’s back there sumplace).

And… Person does ibogaine, flies to the Vatican for an excorcism,
lives with a tribe of pygmies eating ayahausca for 6 months gaining
spiritual insights, goes to therapy, groups, takes their medication,
develops new skills and coping techniques, learns to juggle, and donates
money to needy orphans.

Person does: not a fucking thing, except get back to their life
(presupposing they still have one).

WHO will be clean 2 years later…?

It would seem likely Person .

But … it wouldn’t be correct.

Who will be clean? Flip a coin. Who the hell knows, maybe neither, maybe
both, but there are so many variables in that equation it’s mind blowing.
And NOTHING is black and white and obvious. Most — if not ALL — of it
amounts to: who and what YOU are, OTHER THAN drug dependent.

The rest of it is ’bout as scientific as throwing a shovel full of shit
against the wall and seeing what sticks.

In other words: though I do not have empirical proof of this… I
strongly suspect that Timothy Leary’s neato little psychiatric study,
could be applied to drug dependent individu als with exactly the same
results.

| http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf

| http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm

| -“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
| coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells and

| http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating

| http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Dunno, speaking for myself personally I *was* coerced into “treatment”
repeatedly. And… It never did a fucking thing for me, except fill me
with the urge to smash people’s fucking heads in. Not a single positive
change took place.

When things came together for me, was… In Thailand, where nobody had
anything to sell me, tell me, or insist that I must do. We’re
Buddhists mahn, the world goes on forever, it’s this endless cycle, what
used to work doesn’t work anymore, because faith is gone, so if you have
any input, please feel free to give it. What’re these 12 step things and
therapy? We’ve never heard of this, does any of it work?

Patrick

p.s., None of dis’ is directed at you mahn — Rick — in particular.
Being in your position, I would presume that if you care, the most
important thing you could possibly do, is listen to what people have to
express. Because some — or even much — of it, may be extremely valid.
Listening to someone, and actually hearing them, can be a very
rehumanizing experience. For both parties =)
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 26, 2002 at 2:20:20 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for the input.  I am speaking of one individual who is
considering ibogaine treatment…a friend of his is willing to go along
in order to monitor…thus the use of the term “they.” ¬†I have provided
links to ibogaine sites to both of them.  The user has tried methadone a
number of times, detoxed, and then ends up relapsing within a few
months. The friend who will accompany him is a non-user and is very
supportive…they’ve known each other since age 8 or 9. ¬†Due to a number
of factors (mainly $), they can probably swing a “european vacation,”
but would be unable to afford to travel to Europe again for a year or
longer.  He is 26 years old, has no significant medical problems, is
unwilling to try methadone again, and has an awful lot to lose if daily
opiate use continues.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

HSLotsof@aol.com 06/26/02 01:58PM >>>

In a message dated 6/26/02 1:04:10 PM, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:

They have the means
to possibly afford a european vacation for 4 or 5 days, but that’s
about
it. ¬†I don’t want to offer them false hope, but affording such a trip
would likely tap them out and they wouldn’t be able to afford regular
ibogaine treatment.
Hi Rick,

If your friends have read ibogaine.co.uk and ibogaine.org then they
have been
given realistic assessments of what can be expected from ibogaine. That
is
not false hope.  That is reality.  Ibogaine, like every medication
works very
well for some people and not well for others.  The majority of opiate
dependent persons benefit from ibogaine and if your friends are active
users
it as good a way to get an opportunity to take a break from active
addiction
that I know.  Once, they are treated there perception and ability to
make
other decisions should be more open, particularly as they should no
longer be
chemically dependent.  The hardest part is deciding to do ibogaine and
then
doing it.  It is frightening to consider that you may be a non-drug
addict in
a day or two if you are strung out.

What do you mean by regular ibogaine treatment?  Also, you mention
former
patient and then use the term “they” (not quoted above). ¬†Are we
talking one
or two people?

Howard

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 26, 2002 at 1:58:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 6/26/02 1:04:10 PM, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:

They have the means
to possibly afford a european vacation for 4 or 5 days, but that’s about
it. ¬†I don’t want to offer them false hope, but affording such a trip
would likely tap them out and they wouldn’t be able to afford regular
ibogaine treatment.
Hi Rick,

If your friends have read ibogaine.co.uk and ibogaine.org then they have been
given realistic assessments of what can be expected from ibogaine. That is
not false hope.  That is reality.  Ibogaine, like every medication works very
well for some people and not well for others.  The majority of opiate
dependent persons benefit from ibogaine and if your friends are active users
it as good a way to get an opportunity to take a break from active addiction
that I know.  Once, they are treated there perception and ability to make
other decisions should be more open, particularly as they should no longer be
chemically dependent.  The hardest part is deciding to do ibogaine and then
doing it.  It is frightening to consider that you may be a non-drug addict in
a day or two if you are strung out.

What do you mean by regular ibogaine treatment?  Also, you mention former
patient and then use the term “they” (not quoted above). ¬†Are we talking one
or two people?

Howard

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addic tion
Date: June 26, 2002 at 1:09:29 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Alexis

Just wanted to send you some strength as well as prayers; you getting support from anywhere? Other folks on here have suggested different family support groups
Take best care of you so you can best take care of whomever

STRENGTH & solidarity

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com [mailto:Joatammmo23@aol.com]
Sent: 26 June 2002 04:24
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction

I have a hard time with “the Lord will deliver him from his torment” thing. ¬†I have a brother who has, ¬†and still is killing me inside from his excessive drinking.
It always begins as a recreational thing just as heroin addiction and it’s still legal. ¬†He has been in rehab 7 times, every hospital in the city of Chicago at least 5 times after being found in the dead of winter, ¬†dead drunk in someone yard.

As much as it hurts to admit that I have enabled him by giving him money to make him go away, or layed down credit cards for ¬†48 day stays in ¬†motels so he wouldn’t freeze to death. ¬†Oh Lord please help him I would cry.
I have prayed and prayed for him, and while in dry out bins he has accepted the Lord, only to come out and start all over.
I can only blame it on a father and mother who did nothing for him, nor cared enough for him to give him a proper life.
Can I blame him for using an enabler?  Why does God enable us to enable?
Please pray for my brother.

Alexis

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 26, 2002 at 1:02:24 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

The simple answer: I have a former patient who is giving consideration
to Ibogaine and plunking down $$$ on the chance it can make THE
difference. ¬†They’re tired of using dope, coke, pills, etc. ¬†This
individual has had a problem with being able to take legitimate
prescriptions according to prescribed amounts, and begins to “abuse”
them by taking more to get high, and then, once again, ends up banging
dope. ¬†Wasn’t trying to get nit-picky…so consider all drugs with
whatever terminology can best answer the question. ¬†I’ve provided the
former client with links to ibogaine info., but they are getting all out
of whack on dope again and I doubt they will pursue healthy options.
The only person that still has an inroad for some odd reason is me…but
they are unwilling to give methadone another try.  They have the means
to possibly afford a european vacation for 4 or 5 days, but that’s about
it. ¬†I don’t want to offer them false hope, but affording such a trip
would likely tap them out and they wouldn’t be able to afford regular
ibogaine treatment.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 06/26/02 12:06PM >>>
Mmh interesting question; why is the illicit drug only used, and the
legal
ones have to be abused. You will need to ask that question a little
differently before I can feel propelled to answer

I’m not being a deliberate pain in the ass; just feel that all
potentially
addictive drugs, in the context of this question, need to be referred
to in
the same way

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 25 June 2002 19:42
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] How many??

I am curious…How many people on this list have been opiate addicted,
have only used Ibogaine 1-2x, and have been drug free over a year?

By “drug-free,” I refer to not using any illegal drug, and/or abusing
alcohol or prescription medications, or other substances to catch a
lift.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] Recall: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 26, 2002 at 12:59:53 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt would like to recall the message, “[ibogaine] Re:
ibogaine and hep c”.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 26, 2002 at 1:00:01 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanx for sharing Linda. And especially for your love and kindness.

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: lhutcherson [mailto:lhutcherson3@comcast.net]
Sent: 25 June 2002 23:41
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston & Andria,
I, too have the hep c virus.¬† I also got it from my years of self abuse.¬† But I am claiming my victory now!¬† I refuse to “lie down” because of this diagnosis.¬† I know God is walking with me.¬† As for depression, if you CLAIM your spirituality, identify God in yourself, get a personal relationship with Him, I swear, it will change your life.¬† PEACE is all any of us crave in this world.¬† Everything we do superficially is merely a quest for Peace.¬† Let us stop all of this INTELLECTUALIZING about addiction.¬† Science (man/woman) has manufactured all kinds of help eg. Ibogaine, methadone etc.¬†and we should use the gifts God gave us to help ourselves, but FIRST AND FOREMOST¬†make your foundation the One who Created You, and you can’t go wrong.

BTW, I too, find that the lack of the¬†energy that I once had can be difficult to deal with.¬†Working with a good doctor, and doing the aforementioned things I said, keeping healthy ie. healthy diet etc.is the way to go.¬† Don’t be afraid.¬† You are not alone.
Love and Kindness
Linda Kay
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression; the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it, that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true to anyone¬†else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my mood lately¬†in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down, but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

>
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this summer. i’ve had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load, and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do you think i
> have anything to worry about?
> Poppy
>
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to
>> “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
>>
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that
>> says volumes.
>>
>> On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my
>> nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn’t
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.
>>
>> I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>>
>>
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>>
>>
>>
>> “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May 22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>>
>> | Jon
>> |
>> | Which country are you in?
>>
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>>
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts)
>> but
>> | as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state
>> of
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on
>> HCV)
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or
>> so
>>
>> Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
>> pretty simple:
>>
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
>> then you are more or less — probably — okay.
>>
>> This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>>
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
>> the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It should not
>> be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>>
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
>> isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>>
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>>
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
>> already.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Now… Here’s the great big grey area…
>>
>> What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.
>>
>> Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
>> living.
>>
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).
>>
>> All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
>> done to myself.
>>
>> However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
>> well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
>> like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>>
>> What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
>> want or don’t want.
>>
>> And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
>> something similar.
>>
>> This is called desperation.
>>
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
>> people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
>> with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
>> fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.
>>
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
>> intentions were.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
>> wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe… This may be
>> stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
>> feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
>> ‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
>> rapidly.”
>>
>> Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all fucked up and
>> acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
>> or because there’s something seriously wrong with them… Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>>
>> Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate, tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> ———————————
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 26, 2002 at 12:58:10 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanx for sharing Linda. And especially for your love and kindness.
And which bit of the U.S are you in? I’m assuming you are in the U.S?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: lhutcherson [mailto:lhutcherson3@comcast.net]
Sent: 25 June 2002 23:41
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston & Andria,
I, too have the hep c virus.¬† I also got it from my years of self abuse.¬† But I am claiming my victory now!¬† I refuse to “lie down” because of this diagnosis.¬† I know God is walking with me.¬† As for depression, if you CLAIM your spirituality, identify God in yourself, get a personal relationship with Him, I swear, it will change your life.¬† PEACE is all any of us crave in this world.¬† Everything we do superficially is merely a quest for Peace.¬† Let us stop all of this INTELLECTUALIZING about addiction.¬† Science (man/woman) has manufactured all kinds of help eg. Ibogaine, methadone etc.¬†and we should use the gifts God gave us to help ourselves, but FIRST AND FOREMOST¬†make your foundation the One who Created You, and you can’t go wrong.

BTW, I too, find that the lack of the¬†energy that I once had can be difficult to deal with.¬†Working with a good doctor, and doing the aforementioned things I said, keeping healthy ie. healthy diet etc.is the way to go.¬† Don’t be afraid.¬† You are not alone.
Love and Kindness
Linda Kay
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression; the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it, that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true to anyone¬†else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my mood lately¬†in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down, but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

>
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this summer. i’ve had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load, and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do you think i
> have anything to worry about?
> Poppy
>
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to
>> “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
>>
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that
>> says volumes.
>>
>> On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my
>> nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn’t
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.
>>
>> I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>>
>>
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>>
>>
>>
>> “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May 22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>>
>> | Jon
>> |
>> | Which country are you in?
>>
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>>
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts)
>> but
>> | as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state
>> of
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on
>> HCV)
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or
>> so
>>
>> Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
>> pretty simple:
>>
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
>> then you are more or less — probably — okay.
>>
>> This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>>
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
>> the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It should not
>> be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>>
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
>> isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>>
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>>
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
>> already.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Now… Here’s the great big grey area…
>>
>> What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.
>>
>> Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
>> living.
>>
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).
>>
>> All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
>> done to myself.
>>
>> However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
>> well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
>> like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>>
>> What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
>> want or don’t want.
>>
>> And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
>> something similar.
>>
>> This is called desperation.
>>
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
>> people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
>> with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
>> fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.
>>
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
>> intentions were.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
>> wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe… This may be
>> stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
>> feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
>> ‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
>> rapidly.”
>>
>> Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all fucked up and
>> acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
>> or because there’s something seriously wrong with them… Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>>
>> Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate, tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> ———————————
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addic tion
Date: June 26, 2002 at 12:56:08 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Johnathan

Thanx for grounding us – well me, anyway.

I’m almost certain there are others on this list who know better, but as far
as I am aware, Ibogaine can be used in the detox of someone from alcohol
too. First things first though; he should probably get a good check up to
show where his Liver’s at.

Actually, coming off heroin, and coming off alcohol can be two quite
different experiences; the latter sometimes causing people to hallucinate,
and thus the need for drugs (temorarily) such as Heminevrin and maybe a
benzodiazepine; (not sure if Heminevrin is the U.S. word for this drug,) but
basically it eases the alcohol ‘come down.’ May take days, best under some
kind of medical supervision;

In the immediate, perhaps a drink isn’t the end of the world, as long as he
is ALSO checking out what the options for him are in the long term, in terms
of coming off, if that is what he truly wants.

He really needs to want it first. I guess you knew that

All the best, and tons of strength from

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

(Just so’s you know: I’m an ex addict, worked in AIDS and/or drug treatment
for many years, and am now mainly being an activist/advocate for same
peer-group, along with studies.) Otherwise, why the hell should you listen
to me right?!

Take care, and all the best to your friend too

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: lhutcherson [mailto:lhutcherson3@comcast.net]
Sent: 25 June 2002 23:29
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol
addiction

—– Original Message —–
From: “jonarmst” <jonarmst@du.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:38 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction

One of my best friends is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction.  He
was
drinking about three-fifths of Smirnoff every day before he finally got
tremors so bad that he could barely move. ¬†What’s really scary is that he
told
me he had been drinking like 1.5 fifths of vodka every day for over a year
now, which means every single time I have talked to him he has been drunk.
I
honestly had no idea about any of this at the time.

The detox process sounds awful.  Evidently he just got pumped up with a
lot of
Librium and Ativan and his body was supposed to take care of the rest.  Is
this the same wonderful way that people get detoxed from heroin?

I don’t really know what to do right now except try to be supportive, but
he’s
already talking about craving a drink.  Is there any real way to help him?
He’s definitely not the 12-step type, he was Harvard admission quality
(seriously) until he destroyed his life with alcohol.

Jonathan

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 12:49:15 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Meyers-briggs personality inventory terminology. SJ=Sensing,
Judger…basically, a sense oriented individual that only wants the
facts, and nothing more than the facts. Then based on those facts, they
make a judgment and decisions based on those facts.  Most often, they
are extremely rigid, structured, rulebook oriented individuals who have
a very difficult time coping with new information, i.e., “my mind is
made up, don’t confuse me with the facts.” ¬†An over-simplified
explanation. Very interesting stuff.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_______________________________Received: from hnncsb-MTA by mail.hnncsb.______

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 06/26/02 11:10AM >>>
What the funk is SJ?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 20 June 2002 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

That’s an awesome truth hiding in there. ¬†While I think that the
standard NA rap and recovery works for the most, Patrick is clearly
not
your rigid, structured personality types. ¬†Same here. ¬†I don’t fit
anyone’s mold…and I’m sure people often think I’m still doing drugs.

For the non-SJ personality types, SJ approaches just aren’t going to
work.  Most people tend to be conformists.  Non-conformists tend to do
better when they figure out how to rebel against the system in ways
that
work for them. ¬†It’s great to be an arrogant, prideful prick when your
right…if it works, keep it up. ¬†Just be sure to recognize when it
doesn’t work so well anymore and new things need to be added in. ¬†I’m
one of the most arrogant pricks I know…butReceived: from hnncsb-MTA
by
mail.hnncsb I let go of the pride a
long time ago, so now I can hear and consider what others are saying.
Go
Patrick!

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

erictseitz@hotmail.com 06/20/02 12:12AM >>>

Kerry I think Patrick is speaking after ibogaine. If that’s true I
wouldn’t
say he’s wrong.

Trying to figure out what makes Patrick him is not productive, I think

everyone who ever met him gives him the afternoon clean at most. He
keeps
going. After 3 years almost I think I have gained respect if not great

liking for Mr. Kroupa.

The only puzzling thing that I can’t get through my head is how him
and
Mash
can exist not only on the same planet but in the same place every day
and
not kill each other by now.

Do people change? I haven’t seen that much, do you somehow have
protective
shielding, what is the story with that. It makes as much sense as the
rest
of your life.

Keep on keeping on kid, you’re an arrogant little prick but you do
scare the
crap out of addictionologists, psychiatrists and detox doctors. That’s
got
to count for something.

You did make it. That surprises me as much as anything. As you so
often
say,
god loves fools.

-ETS-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s SPEAKING OF SEROTONIN!
Date: June 26, 2002 at 12:47:47 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey
I’m ‘listening; – what’s your name?!

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: lhutcherson [mailto:lhutcherson3@comcast.net]
Sent: 25 June 2002 23:06
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s SPEAKING OF SEROTONIN!

I don’t know if anyone will pay attention to me, but here goes-
I got my H, C and Zanax addictions under control after I detoxed completely off methadone and going to a medical doctor who was empathetic to my woes.¬† He prescribed 20mg of Paxil and after two weeks of taking it (of course you have to take it that long to even get an effect) and then he upped it to 30 mg.¬† I haven’t looked back since…
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s

Michael

As I was preparing to take it some time ago, I learned that essentially what Iboga does is reset your serotonin levels; that is, I assume, to a higher level than before the treatment, in order for you to cope better after; -u know more feel good chemicals swimming around the bloodstream.

I am not a pharmacologist; even if I was, I’m not sure that I’d go into the chemical detail on this list; for most of us on th9is list, I think the thinkg to know is that it does work, it’s got its drawbacks, (possibly fewer) than most other ‘addiction’ treatments and that you may get deeply reflective for a while, and even see some lovely colours (for a short while) duriong the experience.

Are you thinking about using Iboga to detox someone?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Michael Synergy [mailto:synergy9_11@yahoo.com]
Sent: 23 June 2002 10:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s

I enjoy reading this list if for not other reason then it’s much less depressing then any other addiction oriented list I’ve ever read before.
I also do my best to look up answers to questions I may have and try not to post every thought that crosses my mind here without first doing some homework.
The following questions which I hope someone can answer are not explained in any way that I can either find or understand on any of the ibogaine sites. Not org, net, co.uk and if there is some other source of ibogaine info I am missing please tell me, because those three are about it each in their own way.
Someone mentioned that doing MDMA after ibogaine was a dangerous idea. Why is that? And how soon after is after. A week a month, 6 months?
The much larger question I have I don’t think has an answer. That question is based in part on reading the entheogen review article which was reprinted here.
Do any of you know how ibogaine really works? Does anyone? Because the impression I’m getting from reading all the material I could find on those three sites as well as doing a search through Patrick’s writing for Heroin Times does nothing but bring up theories all of which have been disproved over time or aren’t complete.
It looks like nobody is exactly sure how ibogaine works despite real scientists working with it for a decade or more now.
I know that this could be applied to most hallucinogens and yes I know ibogaine isn’t technically a hallucinogenic drug.
The key difference looks to be that whatever any hallucinogenic drug might do to your perceptions, it will not get rid of your addictions. Ibogaine gets rid of all of them all at once. That’s a little spooky. What sounds even more spooky is that review saying that ibogaine re writes genetic expression. Re writes it to what? What exactly is it doing to the brain to re arrange everything in one dose?
It would worry me more if it wasn’t for the fact that most of you who have done it look like you’re not in wheelchairs or walking around with brain damage and whatever might be said about using the term ‘crazy’ saying different or not normal is a better description.
Is there a reasonable expection that somebody is going to figure it out in the next 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Because as far as I know, even now they still haven’t done so with LSD.
This is a exact quote from Patrick and I understand it’s a joke but it doesn’t look like it’s that funny or far from truth.

‘Seems like a good theory, theories are important. Like fer instance without theories you couldn’t hold Ibogaine conferences and go up on stage and point at little charts and graphs, and write monographs and things. Saying, “it seems to interact with 90% of the brain, for the most part we dunno what the fuck it does, but these guys in the Gabon have been making tea outta this stuff for hundreds of years and it doesn’t seem ta kill most of ’em, a lot of the time. So just eat the shit, and then somethin’ simply magical happens,” doesn’t sound quite as impressive.’
I’m not writing this letter to make chit chat, I’m trying to sort out if it might not be a safer idea to dose with the ibogaine extract from indra over a period of time instead of taking one large dose of hcl all at once. I know a lot of you are very blase about this, but I’m not in the same place. If I saw half of what Patrick and Dave in particular talk about and act comfortable with I would be more then ready for a mental hospital. Ibogaine aside Patrick is or was dosing LSD at 5 and 10 mg levels which I can’t find at the moment but did read somewhere on this list I think. 5 or 10 mg is 50 to 100 times the normal dose level.
What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a different place mentally, where you accept all this and even enjoy being in different realities. I think you crossed the boundary from solving your drug problems to religious experience and kept on going.
I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only want to detox. From all I have read and I have done my best to understand the material online, none of you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of you accept all these different realities as fact. Most of you are not troubled by the fact that ibogaine can kill you and I have to think that if Dr. Mash is so set on hooking people up to heart monitors and equipment and what else I don’t know, it’s because she either knows something or has seen something which scared her a lot, or she wouldn’t be doing all that.
I don’t want to kill myself or see lights and eyes. I only want to detox.
Is there any reason past personal preference that I would have better results from hcl instead of indra extract?
Thank you for reading this far to those who have.
_Synergy_

Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 26, 2002 at 12:06:50 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mmh interesting question; why is the illicit drug only used, and the legal
ones have to be abused. You will need to ask that question a little
differently before I can feel propelled to answer

I’m not being a deliberate pain in the ass; just feel that all potentially
addictive drugs, in the context of this question, need to be referred to in
the same way

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 25 June 2002 19:42
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] How many??

I am curious…How many people on this list have been opiate addicted,
have only used Ibogaine 1-2x, and have been drug free over a year?

By “drug-free,” I refer to not using any illegal drug, and/or abusing
alcohol or prescription medications, or other substances to catch a
lift.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] RE: Conferences
Date: June 26, 2002 at 11:57:08 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PK,

Watch out angry female on the sorta war-path!

Do you think I have time to go to f***ing conferences? Where I usually get
my heart inadvertently broken by some potty professorial American?! No I
don’t

Indeed, lately, we’ve been funding others to do our conferences! (All they
have to commit to is a 7-1400 word report back for the Users Voice..) hint
hint, maybe somebody on this list has a friend in L.A. cares about DP
Reform, is preferably from some American Ethnic Minority and/or affected by
HIV and/or HCV, and wants to attend a conference out there in September,
about Race & the Drug War; I’ll leave that here 4 u guys to think about.

PK, I kinda took umbrage to you saying, if someone wants to pay me etc, as
I’ve never been paid for conference work, but maybe that’s the difference
between an alpha male with self-esteem, who has no qualms with asking for
$$$, (not to mention the fact that who else could do that job anyway? the
only others I know are dead, or not into the job…) and ¬†a ? female with
less S-E bla di bla..
I envy people who ask for money for conference work’ wish I could. Otoh,
reform movement doesn’t have too much money.. Otoh, Daddy Soros has loads
and he funds the American wing, so perhaps…… ¬†Otoh, Otoh

In short: it seems that some folk are simply better at getting their needs
met than others, and without getting a barrage of accusations from y’all
accusing me of sexism; it does appear that men far outdo the gals on this
one

Still, I would encourage u to follow my NYC peer-leader and ACTIVATE. (Otoh,
it does sound like u have tons to do already)

That reminds me, Preston, r u going to the DPA conference in L.A?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 25 June 2002 18:34
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream

On [Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:38:38PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt]
wrote:

| Patrick
|
| U should come to more drug policy reform conferences; there you will meet
| most of the best drug treatmenters in the world, and no, I ain’t kidding.
| Not that there existence makes me wanna use again; just too busy fighting
| the drug war to entertain any silly thoughts like that

Hey Andria,

Sure I guess. ¬†The thing is, I’m not like, hangin’ out a lot and wondering
how to fill up my time. ¬†I’m on call, I work every day, I have 1001 things
to do.  If it pertains to ibogaine and they wanna gimme plane tickets and
hotels, then I’m more than happy to represent ibogaine and carefully
explain why anyone opposing it, is a complete fucking idiot with their
head up their ass — not necessarily using those exact terms. ¬†With
ibogaine I basically have the blessings of Deborah to go forth and shed
light. ¬†With everything else, it really depends what it’s about, and
whether or not these issues are of importance to anybody I work for.

That being said, everything is highly flexible. ¬†If there’s anything
interesting happening, where ibogaine could possibly fit into the agenda,
then please lemme know. ¬†Sumthin’ could prolly be worked out. ¬†While I
know absolutely nothing about “activism” — except that the Libertarian
Party seems to feel this is what we’re doing <shrug> — I’m DONE MY
RESEARCH and know all ’bout addiction. ¬†And at this point, if anybody with
Ph.D. or MD tagged behind their name wants to contradict anything I’m
saying, I’m 99.9% certain I can kick their little fucking bitch ass in.
Without like punching ’em even, using whatever paradigm they want to play
in.  Woo hoo!

Patrick

Gosh, conflict is wonderful.  Where would we be without it.  Oh yeah,
living our lives experiencing that “freedom” thing we theoretically have,
I forgot.  Nevermind.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 11:10:58 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

What the funk is SJ?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 20 June 2002 14:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

That’s an awesome truth hiding in there. ¬†While I think that the
standard NA rap and recovery works for the most, Patrick is clearly not
your rigid, structured personality types. ¬†Same here. ¬†I don’t fit
anyone’s mold…and I’m sure people often think I’m still doing drugs.
For the non-SJ personality types, SJ approaches just aren’t going to
work.  Most people tend to be conformists.  Non-conformists tend to do
better when they figure out how to rebel against the system in ways that
work for them. ¬†It’s great to be an arrogant, prideful prick when your
right…if it works, keep it up. ¬†Just be sure to recognize when it
doesn’t work so well anymore and new things need to be added in. ¬†I’m
one of the most arrogant pricks I know…butReceived: from hnncsb-MTA by
mail.hnncsb I let go of the pride a
long time ago, so now I can hear and consider what others are saying. Go
Patrick!

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

erictseitz@hotmail.com 06/20/02 12:12AM >>>

Kerry I think Patrick is speaking after ibogaine. If that’s true I
wouldn’t
say he’s wrong.

Trying to figure out what makes Patrick him is not productive, I think

everyone who ever met him gives him the afternoon clean at most. He
keeps
going. After 3 years almost I think I have gained respect if not great

liking for Mr. Kroupa.

The only puzzling thing that I can’t get through my head is how him and
Mash
can exist not only on the same planet but in the same place every day
and
not kill each other by now.

Do people change? I haven’t seen that much, do you somehow have
protective
shielding, what is the story with that. It makes as much sense as the
rest
of your life.

Keep on keeping on kid, you’re an arrogant little prick but you do
scare the
crap out of addictionologists, psychiatrists and detox doctors. That’s
got
to count for something.

You did make it. That surprises me as much as anything. As you so often
say,
god loves fools.

-ETS-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 10:47:05 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Kerry & PK ++++

I’m not sure that PK was advocating leaving people ‘alone to drown’ – i thought he was simply quoting a Leary study which indicated that a certain % of us untouched will make our own choices and get off dope anyway, and others (perhaps a larger % need more intervention)

As it happens, I agree that it’s probably better to pull up someone u love (or simply care about) and just say ‘hey, what’s up can I help;’ but if they turn around and say F*** U, whatcha gonna do? My life experience has shown me that the ‘alpha male’ response as you put it can mean a no. of different things, BUT a) certainly it means I’m damaged, and I’m smart and I ain’t listening to anyone right NOW, and b) how the F*** fo u know what I need/want? and so it goes on. At the end of the day, only the most skillful therapist will know how to deal with that without hurting themselves. I gave up (officially) pretending to ‘help’ all the diversity of humans we label dope-fiends. 2 many of us died, and I simply couldn’t bear it, and in my life this very day in fact, if someone does the ‘alpha male’ on me, I just say ‘i love u’ and see u later (when they might be not about to bite my F***ing head off!)

I dunno, I’m older; when I was a mere gal, I might endure being ‘alpha-maled’ but I don’t have time 4 it 2day; indeed, this is something I am grateful to 12-steppers for; they taught me to ‘Let go, and let some ovver geezer!!’

Gotta go

BTW, what’s an alpha male? I thought it was a very horny (sexual) monkey! (or male human) – think I lived with one of them till he died from some stupid virus.

BTW2, sorry I keep nrly-swearing; it’s my way of emphasizing points.

The fact that we have these discussions amongst us on this list, is, I think, healthy. I just wish I knew you all better, as it might be easier to know how to respond appropriately

Solidarity and affection from WARM (for a change) London

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Kerry Dawson [mailto:kdawsonais@yahoo.com]
Sent: 19 June 2002 23:29
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

I signed up for this list after reading some of your ibogaine articles and addiction pieces. My first thought was that you are an exception and every system has those. After joining this list I find more then a few exceptions which makes me question some of the work I do.
I don’t want to make anyone hate me but part of what I do is stage interventions on people at the request of their families or employers.
Patrick you’re speaking after ibogaine for those observations? Pre ibogaine I would think the success would be much lower then that. Because on this one I’d side with Rick and against you and Preston, coercion can and does work. Maybe not for you, either of you. I don’t know too much about Preston except what he writes here, he’s obviously a intelligent person much as yourself. To throw in 2 more cents without even trying to touch psychological motivation, you’re an alpha male with at least some antisocial tendency ūüėČ whose response is to attack anything and anyone who you feel is trying to control you.
You have excellent observations. What you have written about recovery after ibogaine is high quality. But as you yourself said, I’m unsure that your exact roadmap would work for too many other people. Whatever you brought to the table other then your heroin addiction, doesn’t look like it’s there with most of the clients I have worked with. Therapy, groups and yes medication, give some of them a better chance of developing what isn’t there, then just being let loose.
What you and Preston might feel is harming you or harassing you, are techniques that I would say help the majority. Not everyone and evidently not either of you.
I have no concept at all of after ibogaine, so maybe you are right. But saying people should be left alone to drown is not something I can agree with.
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:13:43PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| >>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

| >Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
| adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers?
| What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
| methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
| methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress
| sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
| because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I
| grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
| week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
| methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is
| much more toxic for a >human sy stem, from what I’ve read.
|
| Very good points. But are you talking here about legalizing heroin, or
| using it as an alternative for methadone? As far as half-life and
| medication administration goes, Methadone wins. From what I’ve read of
| Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin has
| fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment modality.
| However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
| Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.” In terms of

Uhm, I’ve used heroin since the age of 14, injecting since
my late teens… If I cut loose the problems that exist due to
prohibition and focus merely on the results of the molecule… Heroin is
much less harsh on your body than methadone. I’m pretty bored with it, so
I’m not gonna reprint my methadone rant yet again — much of which was
based upon the clinics I was in — but I experienced an entire series of
negative side-effects from methadone (or Methadose(R)!) which NEVER
occured for me using ANY type of heroin (powder or tar).

From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities. I had money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems. After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because some of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs! woo hoo!). I gained 35 pounds which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point it all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2 weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there is
white chalky crap all over my clothes… Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING. Obviously they were doing me no good, and chelating
agents are super-fine.

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree. methadone is a buncha crap, that
generates a towering mountain of side-effects, that do not exist under
heroin.

Yeah, everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit. The universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting healthier
and eating better now! Your teeth are getting all fucked up, because
people like sweets, and the fact it appears to take people who have
broken bones, 3-4 times the normal length of time to heal, is completely
normal.

Um… Sorry, that’s all a crock of shit.

This pertains to that Methadose crap, the It’s Just Like Tang! Add Water
and look, it’s METHADONE! and whomever makes that shit which looks like
lumpy glue suspended in spoiled milk and water… I dunno who makes the
latter two, but they are highly popular at NYC methadone clinics.

Dolophine pills and the methadone wafers, did NOT produce any of these
side-effects. I’m unsure how exactly they are modifying the molecule, I
haven’t ever pursued this. But there are s ignificant differences between
how these forms are metabolized.

| >On one hand I completely agree. On the other, it is very interesting
| >that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
| >short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
| >treatment. Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
|
| Here are a few references to support my position. The research on
| treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
| making the issue rather cloudy. However, I do agree with your statement
| that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.” The
| article I read most recently which gives my position stronger support, I
| have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
| little rat-hole of an office. The references below, as a matter of
| course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research that
| supports the contrary. I feel that the diffic ulties reside in poor
| research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment programming,
| and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
| “coercion.”

All the quoted research that appears below, is interesting. However,
generally, people doing research have a THEORY. They often — though not
always — follow this up by making the facts bend around the theory, and
display the “facts” in such a manner as to make the theory appear valid,
sound, and correct.

Everything is just a point of view and “facts” only get in the way of
things.

My point of view is everybody should be free to do whatever they want.
The “drug problem” is created by the “war on drugs.” Some people want to
be on drugs and have no desire to stop. God bless.

Lately I have actually been thinking a lot about “recovery,” or to be more
exact, how do you maintain post-ibogaine. Much of this thinking is the
result of being placed in a position where people who nobody else is
having any success with, are dumped on me. “Okay well, you told everybody
to go fuck themselves, and you made it. Here, this is another version of
you, do something with this, ‘cuz nobody else is having any luck.”

And what exactly do I tell people… If I process it, then general
overall concepts are consistent, and the single, absolute piece of advice
I give, is pretty much always the same: don’t bang up heroin. This has a
100% success rate if you wanna stay off heroin. .

Everything else… I don’t think I’ve ever said exactly the same thing
twice, ‘cuz everybody is different.

However… At nearly 3 years clean, and having been around, well, MANY
drug dependent individuals who are trying to stay clean… And looking at
the long-term, overall results — NOT based upon anyone’s proprietary data
or research, merely speaking from my personal observations…

The conclusion I have arrived at, is that Timothy Leary’s neat little
study, which I should look up again, but to paraphrase it: before the LSD,
turn on, tune in, drop out, phase, while he was still establishment and
working at one of the more prestigious psychiatric hospitals, that had a
wonderful success rate with their patients, using all the most advanced
techniques… He ran a study. Their incredible success rate using
resulted in 1/3rd
of the clients getting better, 1/3rd staying the same, and 1/3rd getting
worse… Which was like, wow, great n’ shit.

So Tim took a group of patients and basically, left them to their own
devices, “do whatever the fuck you want.” And the outstanding results of
his study?

The breakdown was EXACTLY the same. 33% improved, 33% no change, 33%
worse. (throw some .3’s back there sumplace).

And… Person does ibogaine, flies to the Vatican for an excorcism,
lives with a tribe of pygmies eating ayahausca for 6 months gaining
spiritual insights, goes to therapy, groups, takes their medication,
develops new skills and coping techniques, learns to juggle, and donates
money to needy orphans.

Person does: not a fucking thing, except get back to their life
(presupposing they still have one).

WHO will be clean 2 years later…?

It would seem likely Person .

But … it wouldn’t be correct.

Who will be clean? Flip a coin. Who the hell knows, maybe neither, maybe
both, but there are so many variables in that equation it’s mind blowing.
And NOTHING is black and white and obvious. Most — if not ALL — of it
amounts to: who and what YOU are, OTHER THAN drug dependent.

The rest of it is ’bout as scientific as throwing a shovel full of shit
against the wall and seeing what sticks.

In other words: though I do not have empirical proof of this… I
strongly suspect that Timothy Leary’s neato little psychiatric study,
could be applied to drug dependent individu als with exactly the same
results.

| http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf

| http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm

| -“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
| coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells and

| http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating

| http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Dunno, speaking for myself personally I *was* coerced into “treatment”
repeatedly. And… It never did a fucking thing for me, except fill me
with the urge to smash people’s fucking heads in. Not a single positive
change took place.

When things came together for me, was… In Thailand, where nobody had
anything to sell me, tell me, or insist that I must do. We’re
Buddhists mahn, the world goes on forever, it’s this endless cycle, what
used to work doesn’t work anymore, because faith is gone, so if you have
any input, please feel free to give it. What’re these 12 step things and
therapy? We’ve never heard of this, does any of it work?

Patrick

p.s., None of dis’ is directed at you mahn — Rick — in particular.
Being in your position, I would presume that if you care, the most
important thing you could possibly do, is listen to what people have to
express. Because some — or even much — of it, may be extremely valid.
Listening to someone, and actually hearing them, can be a very
rehumanizing experience. For both parties =)
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 26, 2002 at 10:23:20 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Rick and Preston, and whomever else is involved with this thread: I’m in the U.K. and we have traditionally and historically had a different attititude and hence approach to the issue of addiction. As opposed to the U.S. situ, (which seems to assume we are all evil, and/or mad) the U.K. is far more focused on social/emotional problems leading to addiction. At worst, we are described as having a ‘mental illness’ if you will, and therefore we should be prescribed medication – in the early 20th century, and up until the late 60’s this included heroin and cocaine, (not to mention methamphetamine, valium and goodness knows what else!). At best, we are lost kids who need to be put back on track. (that I am aware of) the U.K. has never had a puritanical attitude towards addicts/ion.
However – here we go – in the last 3 years, we have MORE coerced treatment; sysytems called Drug Testing & Treatment Orders (DTTOs) – if ‘caught’ you will be put on the order, meaning regular random drug-testing and visits to a probabtion officer. OR, you go to jail, or rehab. Or sao-called Drugs Abstinence Orders (DAO) which effectively mean you are heavily controlled in the community without treatment supervision, and if caught f***ing up again, you will go straight to jail (without collecting $200; Monopoly-game exist in the U.S.?)
The reason I bothered to intervene at all in your discussion is that our early research is showing that approx. 50% of opur addicts are CHOOSING jail rather than prison, which kinda says a lot about our treatment system, but also deeply questions the ‘benefits’ of coercion.
I have thought about this a lot; when I was in rehab – Synanon-type, London ’85-’87, many of the lads (especially) who were there instead of prison, opted to stay in treatment AFTER the probationary period was up; that is, having being coerced in, they carried on ‘recovering’ rather than leaving to return promptly to dope & the street.
However, the changes that occured in the last 3 yrs, came after at least 1 decade of a strong Harm Reduction DP paradigm, so it might be that we are choosing jail over rehab, cos we have been used to a more liberal system, and we resent this ‘new’ more prohibitionist one, not to mention that there certainly are more drugs in jail, than there are in rehab. (Indeed, if my memory of rehab serves me rightly, if u were caught with dope in rehab, the hell and damnation that came reigning down on you was so intense, u’d either decide to never do it again, or u’d split, lapse and f***ing die [in some cases!])
In short, U.K. junkies are choosing jail over rehab just as many times as they are sticking to recovery when given this unwelcomed choice…
Andria E-Mordaunt‚Ä®Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust‚Ä®‚Ä®MON & WEDS – C/O Drugscope,¬† 32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K‚Ä®0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel‚Ä®0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780¬† Fax‚Ä®‚Ä®andriaem@drugscope.org.uk‚Ä®or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®—–Original Message—–‚Ä®From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]‚Ä®Sent: 19 June 2002 18:14‚Ä®To: ibogaine@mindvox.com‚Ä®Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®>>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>‚Ä®‚Ä®>Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the‚Ä®adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers?‚Ä®What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like‚Ä®methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of‚Ä®methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress‚Ä®sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just‚Ä®because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I‚Ä®grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a‚Ä®week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and‚Ä®methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is‚Ä®much more toxic for a >human system, from what I’ve read.‚Ä®‚Ä®Very good points.¬† But are you talking here about legalizing heroin, or‚Ä®using it as an alternative for methadone?¬† As far as half-life and‚Ä®medication administration goes, Methadone wins.¬† From what I’ve read of‚Ä®Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin has‚Ä®fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment modality.‚Ä®However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize‚Ä®Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.”¬† In terms of‚Ä®dropping off quickly, the length and perceived severity are worse due to‚Ä®the longer half-life.¬† This goes back to the issue of using the‚Ä®medication as prescribed. The actual side-effects themselves don’t‚Ä®appear to be all that bad.¬† I have no problem with Heroin Maintenance‚Ä®Therapy, I think we should give it a go.¬† Likewise with Ibogaine,‚Ä®Buprenex, Buprenorphine, URD, etc.¬†¬† Whateve5r it takes to reduce the‚Ä®problems related to the destruction of addictive use.¬† The studies I‚Ä®have reviewed re: heroin support its use in suitably equipped outpatient‚Ä®clinics.¬† I doubt that simple legalization, however, would solve much.‚Ä®‚Ä®>On one hand I completely agree.¬† On the other, it is very interesting‚Ä®>that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the‚Ä®>short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into‚Ä®>treatment.¬† Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.‚Ä®‚Ä®Here are a few references to support my position.¬† The research on‚Ä®treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,‚Ä®making the issue rather cloudy.¬† However, I do agree with your statement‚Ä®that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.”¬† The‚Ä®article I read most recently which gives my position stronger support, I‚Ä®have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my‚Ä®little rat-hole of an office.¬† The references below, as a matter of‚Ä®course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research that‚Ä®supports the contrary.¬† I feel that the difficulties reside in poor‚Ä®research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment programming,‚Ä®and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and‚Ä®”coercion.”‚Ä®‚Ä®http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf‚Ä®-“provides overall support forthe dictum that legally referred clients‚Ä®do as well or better than voluntary clients in and aftertreatment.‚Ä®However, our review also reveals some divergence in findings which we‚Ä®consider equally illuminating. We propose that the majority of the‚Ä®variation in coerced treatment outcomesis due to (1) inconsistent‚Ä®terminologies for referral status, (2) neglected emphasis on‚Ä®internalmotivation, and (3) infidelity in program implementation.”‚Ä®‚Ä®http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm‚Ä®-“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that‚Ä®coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells and‚Ä®Simpson (1976) and Simpson and Friend (1988) examined the effect of‚Ä®contact with the criminal justice system at treatment admission on the‚Ä®length of stay in treatment and on the performance of clients during and‚Ä®after treatment. They found that those entering treatment with some‚Ä®legal involvement functioned as well as those who entered voluntarily. A‚Ä®number of other studies also report that legal pressure increases‚Ä®admission rates into treatment programs and promotes treatment‚Ä®retention.”‚Ä®‚Ä®http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating‚Ä®-“Research has shown that combining criminal justice sanctions with‚Ä®drug treatment can be effective in decreasing drug use and related‚Ä®crime. Individuals under legal coercion tend to stay in treatment for a‚Ä®longer period of time and do as well as or better than others not under‚Ä®legal pressure. Often, drug abusers come into contact with the criminal‚Ä®justice system earlier than other health or social systems, and‚Ä®intervention by the criminal justice system to engage the individual in‚Ä®treatment may help interrupt and shorten a career of drug use. Treatment‚Ä®for the criminal justice-involved drug abuser or drug addict may be‚Ä®delivered prior to, during, after, or in lieu of incarceration.”‚Ä®‚Ä®http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®Likewise:‚Ä®Berkowitz G; Brindis C; Clayson Z; Peterson S. Options for Recovery:‚Ä®Promoting success among women mandated to treatment. Journal of‚Ä®Psychoactive Drugs 28(1): 31-38, 1996. (17 refs.)‚Ä®-“In recent years imprisonment has been used increasingly for a wide‚Ä®range of nonviolent and petty offenses committed by women. Among‚Ä®incarcerated women, particularly those who are pregnant or parenting,‚Ä®substance use and its deleterious consequences are often exacerbated by‚Ä®imprisonment. Women who have been identified as chemically dependent are‚Ä®also at high risk for losing custody of their children. In California,‚Ä®the Options for Recovery (OFR) treatment program provided an alternative‚Ä®to incarceration or relinquishment of custody of children for chemically‚Ä®dependent pregnant and parenting women. This three-year pilot project‚Ä®offered alcohol and other drug abuse treatment and case management to‚Ä®these women, and included special training and recruitment of foster‚Ä®parents for their children. Findings from a three-year, multimethod‚Ä®evaluation study showed that women who were mandated to OFR treatment‚Ä®programs were more likely to successfully complete treatment than women‚Ä®who had enrolled in OFR voluntarily. An economic analysis of the costs‚Ä®associated with women in OFR compared with the combined costs of‚Ä®incarceration and alcohol and other drug abuse treatment produced a‚Ä®ratio in favor of OFR. Additionally, some innovative service‚Ä®alternatives for women mandated to treatment were developed during the‚Ä®project. The impact of such changes have implications for improving‚Ä®women’s and family health. Copyright 1996, Haight-Ashbury Publications”‚Ä®‚Ä®Also:‚Ä®Mathias, R.¬† Correctional Treatment Helps Offenders Stay Drug and‚Ä®Arrest Free. NIDA Notes (NN0026: 60-62.‚Ä®‚Ä®‚Ä®>What about all the alcoholics who respond positively to treatment, do‚Ä®you suppose they’d do better if jailing them were used as a threat, or‚Ä®do you think it might cause even more >unneeded problems for those poor‚Ä®saps?‚Ä®‚Ä®Both/and…I think some would probably do better and some would likely‚Ä®do worse.¬† I think the research indicates that treatment works.¬† It‚Ä®indicates that length of treatment and involvement in counseling and‚Ä®12-step programs increases treatment effectiveness (E.g., NIDA Notes‚Ä®V.14, #5).¬† It appears that coercing people into treatment works as‚Ä®well.¬† In the long-term, however, reading between the lines and‚Ä®deciphering the data would seem to indicate that motivation needs to‚Ä®shift from external motivation to primarily an internal motivation for‚Ä®long-term sobtriety to take place.¬† None of the foregoing should be‚Ä®understood as an argument that it is MORALLY right to force people into‚Ä®treatment for a recognized medical problem.‚Ä®‚Ä®>Do you think alcohol use should be treated differently than other‚Ä®drugs people are treated for using? (A point Maia makes quite eloquently‚Ä®in the article Dana just posted the other >day.)‚Ä®‚Ä®…that’s a huge question, with not enough space to fully respond.¬† My‚Ä®simple answer is No, not really…complicated by the flipside that all‚Ä®people are different, genetically, psychologically, etc. and that one‚Ä®drug is chemically different than another…so Yes, they should be‚Ä®treated differently.¬† I don’t think a cookie-cutter approach is the most‚Ä®effective approach.¬† Methadone works? Great.¬† Can’t seem to play by the‚Ä®clinic rules? Let’s give Ibo a whirl.¬† Hmmm…no money, no access?‚Ä®Let’s give the cold-turkey a shot and load you up with NA/God/Synagogue.‚Ä®¬†Have you checked out URD? Buprenex? Putting on white robes and getting‚Ä®dropped off with a few hundred gallons of water and a bunch of food in‚Ä®the middle of the desert?¬† …whatever the hell we can figure out to‚Ä®do…legal or illegal…to make life manageable…all the while, making‚Ä®sure they are clear on who is responsible for making the choices that‚Ä®make things better or worse.¬† One quarter, One life, No time extensions,‚Ä®and No replay…what does it mean for YOU to win?¬† Don’t think drugs are‚Ä®a problem? Fine. Use. If things get bad enough, at least consider the‚Ä®possibility of being wrong.¬† Get busted?¬† Lobby. Protest. Change the‚Ä®laws. Be a martyr…and sit in jail as the rules require.¬† If that’s how‚Ä®winning is defined for you…great.‚Ä®‚Ä®>I can personally vouch for the fact that jail is not healthy or fun,‚Ä®nor did spending time inside ever keep me from wanting to get high. When‚Ä®the judge first mandated me into >treatment, I thought it was a far‚Ä®better choice than a trip through jail. Not by any means do I support‚Ä®incarceration for any drug offense (which I hadn’t been charged with at‚Ä®that >time, anyway), but treatment at that point wasn’t better for me.‚Ä®‚Ä®Jail isn’t supposed to be fun ūüôā¬† It’s designed to keep the dangerous‚Ä®drug users off the streets…as opposed to rapists, murderers, and‚Ä®molesters.¬† I pretty much agree, but not with your qualifier “any drug‚Ä®offense.”‚Ä®‚Ä®This is getting too long…so I’ll just shut up now.¬† Thanks for the‚Ä®links. I’ll check them out.‚Ä®‚Ä®_____________________________________‚Ä®Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC‚Ä®Hampton Roads Clinic‚Ä®2236 W. Queen St., Suite C‚Ä®Hampton,¬† VA¬† 23666‚Ä®‚Ä®Office:¬† (757) 827-8430 x144‚Ä®Fax:¬† (757) 826-2772‚Ä®Cell: (757) 270-9839‚Ä®_____________________________________

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 26, 2002 at 10:02:15 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Croatia has dinosaur remains hah – excellent! Gotta get out there

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Ustanova Iboga [mailto:Iboga@guest.arnes.si]
Sent: 18 June 2002 21:02
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be

At 19:35 18.6.2002, you wrote:

Uhm, basically, people are STUPID.
To reiterate: people are idiots.

Just saying,

Patrick

SSsshhh!!! That’s supposed to be a SECRET!!

Well, we have temperatures around 34 deg. Celsius, and I decided to sign
off this list (just temporary), and go to http://www.sanpolo.cro.net/ for
awhile… Used to be a great place; the first time I was there I had to ask
a farmer if I can pitch my tent, and four families were there, so we had a
LOT of place for ourselves…. Now is somehow different… a few years ago
they brought water to the camp (before that we had to get it from 7 km away
;-)), and last year they even asphalted the road :(( ¬†BUT there’s no
electricity yet…. At least I hope so!! (This progress is spoiling
everything).

I’ll sign off on Friday, because I can’t afford to have thousands e-mails
when I come back… But I’ll have to come home regulary to empty my
snail-mailbox, and check my e-mailbox to see if someone needs me ;-))

Anyway, enjoy yourselves ;-))

And Patrick, don’t tell them ALL secrets, might be too heavy impact on some
people’s heads! (On the second thought, go on, tell them all! They won’t
understand it unless they CAN understand. Have you read that old SF story
where people were asking someone (who knew EVERYTHING) questions, but they
didn’t get any answers because questions were not precise enough and it was
not possible answering them with precision; and to pose a precise question,
one should know more than 90% of the answer… I forgot who wrote this
story (Asimov? Lem? Adams?), but he was right ūüėČ

I’ll miss you all, but can’t take you with me; if anyone wants to join me
there – he/she is most wellcome!!

;-)))

Marko

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 26, 2002 at 3:07:31 PM EDT
To: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Reply-To: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>

—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa <digital@phantom.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream

On [Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 10:38:19PM -0700], [Nick Sandberg] wrote:

Nick, I just wanted to say that I miss your active presence.  Having a
life is no excuse for not reading each and every word that emits from
here.

Or at least everything with my name in the headers.

*big kiss*

Patrick

p.s., You’ve made me realize my response to Ted was overly rational. ¬†Go
fuck yourself woulda covered it.

Hi Patrick, thanks and sorry I don’t get much time to keep up with debates.
back in town for a couple of days for my mum’s birthday which is why i’m
online a bit now. got your other email but it’s on another computer so will
reply soon. all the best, man. nick

From: vajakki@MomLovesMeBest.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Ibogaine, Check my private incest photos its kinda weird ūüôā
Date: June 26, 2002 at 12:57:00 AM EDT
To: Ibogaine <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi  Ibogaine !

We have incest of all kinds:

Daddy – Daughter,
Mommy – Son,
Mommy – Daughter,
Brother – Sister,
Sister – Sister,
Daddy – Son,
Brother – Brother…

Just take a free tour!

http://shocking-incest.com/

Our content is absolutely real, no doubt
(for 100%!!!): Shocking Family Photos, Black
and White Retro Photos Content, HOT incest
Movie Clips, Incest Family Stories and more.

http://shocking-incest.com/

My Daddy is a real sexual monster… He can fuck me 5-6 times
a day… And his crazy brother always draw me and my daddy.
In the beginning I didn’t like that, but then I felt myself
pleased…

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 26, 2002 at 1:59:47 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: lhutcherson
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston & Andria,
I, too have the hep c virus.¬† I also got it from my years of self abuse.¬† But I am claiming my victory now!¬† I refuse to “lie down” because of this diagnosis.¬† I know God is walking with me.¬† As for depression, if you CLAIM your spirituality, identify God in yourself, get a personal relationship with Him, I swear, it will change your life.¬† PEACE is all any of us crave in this world.¬† Everything we do superficially is merely a quest for Peace.¬† Let us stop all of this INTELLECTUALIZING about addiction.¬† Science (man/woman) has manufactured all kinds of help eg. Ibogaine, methadone etc.¬†and we should use the gifts God gave us to help ourselves, but FIRST AND FOREMOST¬†make your foundation the One who Created You, and you can’t go wrong.

BTW, I too, find that the lack of the¬†energy that I once had can be difficult to deal with.¬†Working with a good doctor, and doing the aforementioned things I said, keeping healthy ie. healthy diet etc.is the way to go.¬† Don’t be afraid.¬† You are not alone.
Love and Kindness
Linda

Hey Linda, God made intellectuals too, you know. Are you dissing His creation? And where do you get off like TELLING people what they have to do? All that shows is that you’re still NOT THERE. If you love God and he/she/it saved your life…great! If you want to run around telling people how God saved your life….great! But when you feel some urge to like TELL people that THIS is what they also NEED to do….well it shows it hasn’t really worked for you after all, that a big part of you is still unhealed. The “God” you’re talking about is simply a state of surrender you’re putting a name to because that’s where you are at the moment. If you wanna keep going you’re gonna have to drop telling people what to do. Right now you’re just backpedalling.

God

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] equal protection under the law- a creative exercise for adult eyes
Date: June 26, 2002 at 12:19:44 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

yeah, I can be an idiot. I noticed that I’d done that posting from Vanessa’s account, (dumb, dumb, dumb), only AFTER I’d hit send. duh.
And yeah, funny how fiction can tell a story so much better than factual reporting sometimes. I was really amazed with that little piece yesterday, as I sat down to write, and out it popped, nearly whole from the get go. It felt weird but right, just flowed right out without a pause.
Sometimes I can sit here for hours, going “what to write, what to write, think, think” with nothing ever coming out, but yesterday I didn’t have that trouble at all.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Carla Barnes
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] equal protection under the law- a creative exercise for adult eyes

Preston, besides posting this from your girlfriend’s
account? and confusing me for a minute this is really
cool. What’s so sad is how true it is.

Carla B

— Vanessa Cleary <vcleary@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> HI all,
>     Sitting here with most of my current assignments
> finished and finally turned in, I decided to write
> out an idea, a parable if you will, that popped into
> my head nearly whole this afternoon, which you can
> read at the following link. I hope that you will
> pass it on to whomever you feel may find it
> entertaining, or educational.
> Peace,
> Preston Peet
> editor http://www.drugwar.com
> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>
> Equal Protection Under the Law- a modern day parable
> http://www.drugwar.com/pequalprotection.shtm
> by Preston Peet
> June 24, 2002
>
> Thomas sits on the hard wood bench surrounded by
> piles of steaming, stinking shit in Tompkins Square
> at 10th and Ave. A. It’s impossible to tell if it’s
> human or other, but it sure as hell doesn’t slow him
> down.
>
> Middle of the hot summer afternoon in NYC, it has
> taken Thomas hours to scam up enough money to score
> both coke and dope. His morning third of a bag
> wakeup shot has long worn off, leaving him feeling
> drained and sore, ready to throw up on his shoes if
> he doesn’t get another shot into himself quickly.
> The afternoon inline skating hockey game hasn’t
> begun, and there’s no annoying groups of kids
> playing baseball, so there shouldn’t be any trouble.
>
> He whips out his accoutrements and quickly mixes up
> a big fat 40 mil shot, stirring in a bag of each
> drug, sucking up the greasy yellow liquid into his
> rig. It takes just seconds for him to deftly
> register the vein he’s been hitting the last few
> days now, on the right side of his left wrist. It’s
> a perfect vein that he doesn’t even have to tie off
> to hit, making it easy to bang no matter his locale,
> unlike his preferred spot in the elbow.
>
> snip-
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:23:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I have a hard time with “the Lord will deliver him from his torment” thing. ¬†I have a brother who has, ¬†and still is killing me inside from his excessive drinking.
It always begins as a recreational thing just as heroin addiction and it’s still legal. ¬†He has been in rehab 7 times, every hospital in the city of Chicago at least 5 times after being found in the dead of winter, ¬†dead drunk in someone yard.

As much as it hurts to admit that I have enabled him by giving him money to make him go away, or layed down credit cards for ¬†48 day stays in ¬†motels so he wouldn’t freeze to death. ¬†Oh Lord please help him I would cry.
I have prayed and prayed for him, and while in dry out bins he has accepted the Lord, only to come out and start all over.
I can only blame it on a father and mother who did nothing for him, nor cared enough for him to give him a proper life.
Can I blame him for using an enabler?  Why does God enable us to enable?
Please pray for my brother.

Alexis

From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 25, 2002 at 10:25:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi.¬† Was opiate-addicted, took ibogaine twice, was clean one year,¬† felt like I was going to relapse so¬†did a booster (worst trip, tho) and stayed clean one more year.¬† During that year I had NO desire to get high but – weird medical shit started happening and ended up relapsing,¬†altho at a¬†very reduced amount.¬† Went to the 12 steps¬†because I couldn’t stand the thought of taking any more ibogaine.¬† So far it’s working – have another 2 years.¬† (Yea!)¬† I still long for my opiates, but know my life is much better without them.¬† Ibogaine definitely turned the corner for me, tho.
Best wishes, Sandy
PS¬†– Does anyone know anything about Ultramm for pain relief.¬† I still get bad headaches that nothing over-the-counter works on.¬† My mom has some Ultramm which her doctor said wasn’t a narcotic, but my doc said it can still make you high?¬† Any advice appreciated…

>From: “Rick Venglarcik”

>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>To:

>Subject: [ibogaine] How many??

>Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:42:16 -0400

>

>I am curious…How many people on this list have been opiate addicted,

>have only used Ibogaine 1-2x, and have been drug free over a year?

>

>By “drug-free,” I refer to not using any illegal drug, and/or abusing

>alcohol or prescription medications, or other substances to catch a

>lift.

>

>_____________________________________

>Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC

>Hampton Roads Clinic

>2236 W. Queen St., Suite C

>Hampton, VA 23666

>

>Office: (757) 827-8430 x144

>Fax: (757) 826-2772

>Cell: (757) 270-9839

>_____________________________________

>

><< RickVenglarcik.vcf >>

Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 25, 2002 at 6:41:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston & Andria,
I, too have the hep c virus.¬† I also got it >from my years of self abuse.¬† But I am claiming my victory now!¬† I refuse to “lie down” because of this diagnosis.¬† I know God is walking with me.¬† As for depression, if you CLAIM your spirituality, identify God in yourself, get a personal relationship with Him, I swear, it will change your life.¬† PEACE is all any of us crave in this world.¬† Everything we do superficially is merely a quest for Peace.¬† Let us stop all of this INTELLECTUALIZING about addiction.¬† Science (man/woman) has manufactured all kinds of help eg. Ibogaine, methadone etc.¬†and we should use the gifts God gave us to help ourselves, but FIRST AND FOREMOST¬†make your foundation the One who Created You, and you can’t go wrong.

BTW, I too, find that the lack of the¬†energy that I once had can be difficult to deal with.¬†Working with a good doctor, and doing the aforementioned things I said, keeping healthy ie. healthy diet etc.is the way to go.¬† Don’t be afraid.¬† You are not alone.
Love and Kindness
Linda Kay
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression; the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it, that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true to anyone¬†else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my mood lately¬†in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down, but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

>
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this summer. i’ve had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load, and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do you think i
> have anything to worry about?
> Poppy
>
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to
>> “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
>>
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that
>> says volumes.
>>
>> On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my
>> nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn’t
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.
>>
>> I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>>
>>
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>>
>>
>>
>> “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May 22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>>
>> | Jon
>> |
>> | Which country are you in?
>>
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>>
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts)
>> but
>> | as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state
>> of
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on
>> HCV)
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or
>> so
>>
>> Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
>> pretty simple:
>>
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
>> then you are more or less — probably — okay.
>>
>> This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>>
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
>> the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It should not
>> be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>>
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
>> isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>>
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>>
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
>> already.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Now… Here’s the great big grey area…
>>
>> What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.
>>
>> Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
>> living.
>>
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).
>>
>> All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
>> done to myself.
>>
>> However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
>> well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
>> like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>>
>> What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
>> want or don’t want.
>>
>> And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
>> something similar.
>>
>> This is called desperation.
>>
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
>> people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
>> with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
>> fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.
>>
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
>> intentions were.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
>> wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe… This may be
>> stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
>> feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
>> ‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
>> rapidly.”
>>
>> Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all fucked up and
>> acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
>> or because there’s something seriously wrong with them… Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>>
>> Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate, tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> ———————————
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction
Date: June 25, 2002 at 6:30:10 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Jonathan,
No one else on this list will tell you this, but I hope you will heed  the
message- Support your friend through PRAYER most of all.  Our Creator is the
only one who can DELIVER him from his torment.  He did it for me.
Linda Kay
—– Original Message —–
From: “jonarmst” <jonarmst@du.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:38 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction

One of my best friends is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction.  He
was
drinking about three-fifths of Smirnoff every day before he finally got
tremors so bad that he could barely move. ¬†What’s really scary is that he
told
me he had been drinking like 1.5 fifths of vodka every day for over a year
now, which means every single time I have talked to him he has been drunk.
I
honestly had no idea about any of this at the time.

The detox process sounds awful.  Evidently he just got pumped up with a
lot of
Librium and Ativan and his body was supposed to take care of the rest.  Is
this the same wonderful way that people get detoxed from heroin?

I don’t really know what to do right now except try to be supportive, but
he’s
already talking about craving a drink.  Is there any real way to help him?
He’s definitely not the 12-step type, he was Harvard admission quality
(seriously) until he destroyed his life with alcohol.

Jonathan

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction
Date: June 25, 2002 at 6:28:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: “jonarmst” <jonarmst@du.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:38 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction

One of my best friends is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction.  He
was
drinking about three-fifths of Smirnoff every day before he finally got
tremors so bad that he could barely move. ¬†What’s really scary is that he
told
me he had been drinking like 1.5 fifths of vodka every day for over a year
now, which means every single time I have talked to him he has been drunk.
I
honestly had no idea about any of this at the time.

The detox process sounds awful.  Evidently he just got pumped up with a
lot of
Librium and Ativan and his body was supposed to take care of the rest.  Is
this the same wonderful way that people get detoxed from heroin?

I don’t really know what to do right now except try to be supportive, but
he’s
already talking about craving a drink.  Is there any real way to help him?
He’s definitely not the 12-step type, he was Harvard admission quality
(seriously) until he destroyed his life with alcohol.

Jonathan

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s SPEAKING OF SEROTONIN!
Date: June 25, 2002 at 6:05:42 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know if anyone will pay attention to me, but here goes-
I got my H, C and Zanax addictions under control after I detoxed completely off methadone and going to a medical doctor who was empathetic to my woes.¬† He prescribed 20mg of Paxil and after two weeks of taking it (of course you have to take it that long to even get an effect) and then he upped it to 30 mg.¬† I haven’t looked back since…
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s

Michael

As I was preparing to take it some time ago, I learned that essentially what Iboga does is reset your serotonin levels; that is, I assume, to a higher level than before the treatment, in order for you to cope better after; -u know more feel good chemicals swimming around the bloodstream.

I am not a pharmacologist; even if I was, I’m not sure that I’d go into the chemical detail on this list; for most of us on th9is list, I think the thinkg to know is that it does work, it’s got its drawbacks, (possibly fewer) than most other ‘addiction’ treatments and that you may get deeply reflective for a while, and even see some lovely colours (for a short while) duriong the experience.

Are you thinking about using Iboga to detox someone?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Michael Synergy [mailto:synergy9_11@yahoo.com]
Sent: 23 June 2002 10:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s

I enjoy reading this list if for not other reason then it’s much less depressing then any other addiction oriented list I’ve ever read before.
I also do my best to look up answers to questions I may have and try not to post every thought that crosses my mind here without first doing some homework.
The following questions which I hope someone can answer are not explained in any way that I can either find or understand on any of the ibogaine sites. Not org, net, co.uk and if there is some other source of ibogaine info I am missing please tell me, because those three are about it each in their own way.
Someone mentioned that doing MDMA after ibogaine was a dangerous idea. Why is that? And how soon after is after. A week a month, 6 months?
The much larger question I have I don’t think has an answer. That question is based in part on reading the entheogen review article which was reprinted here.
Do any of you know how ibogaine really works? Does anyone? Because the impression I’m getting from reading all the material I could find on those three sites as well as doing a search through Patrick’s writing for Heroin Times does nothing but bring up theories all of which have been disproved over time or aren’t complete.
It looks like nobody is exactly sure how ibogaine works despite real scientists working with it for a decade or more now.
I know that this could be applied to most hallucinogens and yes I know ibogaine isn’t technically a hallucinogenic drug.
The key difference looks to be that whatever any hallucinogenic drug might do to your perceptions, it will not get rid of your addictions. Ibogaine gets rid of all of them all at once. That’s a little spooky. What sounds even more spooky is that review saying that ibogaine re writes genetic expression. Re writes it to what? What exactly is it doing to the brain to re arrange everything in one dose?
It would worry me more if it wasn’t for the fact that most of you who have done it look like you’re not in wheelchairs or walking around with brain damage and whatever might be said about using the term ‘crazy’ saying different or not normal is a better description.
Is there a reasonable expection that somebody is going to figure it out in the next 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Because as far as I know, even now they still haven’t done so with LSD.
This is a exact quote from Patrick and I understand it’s a joke but it doesn’t look like it’s that funny or far from truth.

‘Seems like a good theory, theories are important. Like fer instance without theories you couldn’t hold Ibogaine conferences and go up on stage and point at little charts and graphs, and write monographs and things. Saying, “it seems to interact with 90% of the brain, for the most part we dunno what the fuck it does, but these guys in the Gabon have been making tea outta this stuff for hundreds of years and it doesn’t seem ta kill most of ’em, a lot of the time. So just eat the shit, and then somethin’ simply magical happens,” doesn’t sound quite as impressive.’
I’m not writing this letter to make chit chat, I’m trying to sort out if it might not be a safer idea to dose with the ibogaine extract from indra over a period of time instead of taking one large dose of hcl all at once. I know a lot of you are very blase about this, but I’m not in the same place. If I saw half of what Patrick and Dave in particular talk about and act comfortable with I would be more then ready for a mental hospital. Ibogaine aside Patrick is or was dosing LSD at 5 and 10 mg levels which I can’t find at the moment but did read somewhere on this list I think. 5 or 10 mg is 50 to 100 times the normal dose level.
What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a different place mentally, where you accept all this and even enjoy being in different realities. I think you crossed the boundary from solving your drug problems to religious experience and kept on going.
I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only want to detox. From all I have read and I have done my best to understand the material online, none of you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of you accept all these different realities as fact. Most of you are not troubled by the fact that ibogaine can kill you and I have to think that if Dr. Mash is so set on hooking people up to heart monitors and equipment and what else I don’t know, it’s because she either knows something or has seen something which scared her a lot, or she wouldn’t be doing all that.
I don’t want to kill myself or see lights and eyes. I only want to detox.
Is there any reason past personal preference that I would have better results from hcl instead of indra extract?
Thank you for reading this far to those who have.
_Synergy_

Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 6:01:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is great ūüôā I have to say this. I don’t have that much to contribute and try not to say stupid things here but this is the coolest list in the world. Hallucinogen lists are almost all packed full of airheads talking about dumb crap, heroin and crack lists are full of depressing and sad people going off about how miserable they are or someone was mean to them in line at methadone maintenence. This is the only place I have ever seen people go from totally awesome spiritual tripping messages which are mind blowingly cool, to go fuck yourself. Does ibogaine make you get real? ūüôā If so then somebody needs to dump it all over the rest of hippyland ūüôā You guys rule ūüôā .:vector:. On Tue, 25 June 2002, “Nick Sandberg” wrote > > > —– Original Message —– > From: Ted Elliot > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:05 PM > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream > > > > > That being said, everything is highly flexible. If > > > there’s anything > > > interesting happening, where ibogaine could possibly > > > fit into the agenda, > > > then please lemme know. Sumthin’ could prolly be > > > worked out. While I > > > know absolutely nothing about “activism” — except > > > that the Libertarian > > > Party seems to feel this is what we’re doing > > > — > > > > You do and you are. You have what was a hardcore > > hacking site and isp and and has some crazy number of > > people connecting to it, who you are now dumping right > > into the middle of pscyechedelics and ibogaine. > > > > Look, I’m sorry Ted, but your whole reply and apparently your whole like > BEING is just tooo retarded for you to be on this list which, sadly, I > rarely have time these days to read at such a deep level. > > I mean, really…….. > > > > Your media kit says it all. Secret service, FBI, > > investigations, endless busts. You and your friends > > have been in trouble since around the time you were > > born. You have never stolen any actual money at least > > not that you were ever charged with and caught, you’ve > > made people run around in circles chasing you. What > > did all of this ever teach any of you looks to be that > > with good lawyers you will walk off and get right back > > to causing twice as much trouble as you did before. > > > > No-one, like NO-ONE, LEARNS from the justice system, it’s just that, > sometimes, their ego matures and they stop doing the stuff they did, and get > into partners, kids, and things like this. The whole idea that the legal > system for offenders is somehow going to sufficiently condition a person out > of re-offending is nonsensical, as is well known by anyone in power, the > whole concept is solely kept in place for the high number of people who are > basically voting and working fodder and thus totally disrespected by both > the law-makers and the law-breakers. Basically, when you write a paragraph > like the one you just wrote above, the subtext is “I am a total fucking > idiot and you can do what the fuck you like with me.” It’s like “Please, > PLEASE abuse me.” > > > Activism is just like that, except you add a “cause” > > > > Under most circumstances I think this would present a > > problem for you since your mindvox chaos symbol logo > > says it all, chaos for the sake of chaos. You don’t > > care about anything I don’t think. > > Everyone cares. Some admit it, some don’t. It’s impossible not to care. You > couldn’t exist if you didn’t care. There’d be nothing to hold your being in > place. > > Your partner is a > > perfect example of this too, didn’t Mr. Fancher vote > > for Bush? His dad is a ultra liberal demacrat who > > started the village voice so of course his son and > > your partner is a ultra conservative republican. > > > > Most people who vote for George Bush would have a > > problem with mindvox for example. They’d definitely > > have a problem with registering domains called > > bushknew and starting to fill them crazy conspiracy > > nuts talking about the person they voted for. > > Purely as a side point, I have to point out that George W wouldn’t know if > someone put shit in his sandwich and told him it was marmite [a UK beef > spread] . He’s a total irrelevancy. No-one would have bothered explaining > Sep11 to him, not because he would have disagreed, but because he wouldn’t > have understood it. He’d just be pointing at the plans and mumbling with > bits of food dribbling out of his mouth. > > America’s whole raison d’etre is just as a delaying tactic. > > He > > doesn’t look to care, because of course it’s more > > important to cause trouble. And the only reason he > > would have voted for Bush is because he’s rich and > > wants to stay rich and get richer, not paying taxes. > > > > The only things you do appear to care about are > > psychedelics in general and ibogaine in particular. > > > > There you go. You have a cause. > > > > With your resume I’m sure you’ll cause a lot of damage > > to somebody. Whoever you think is on “the other side” > > > > > > >I’m DONE MY > > > RESEARCH and know all ’bout addiction. > > > > Yes you do. > > > > > And at this > > > point, if anybody with > > > Ph.D. or MD tagged behind their name wants to > > > contradict anything I’m > > > saying, I’m 99.9% certain I can kick their little > > > fucking bitch ass in. > > > Without like punching ’em even, using whatever > > > paradigm they want to play > > > in. Woo hoo! > > > > Right. And if they fall into the .01 percent then > > you’ll go find them in the parking lot afterwards. > > > > So much for listening to anybody else. > > > > It would be 0.1% actually. And how do even you have the gaul to make a > statement about someone else and then use it to condemn them? Shit, even GW > and his buddies at least give a person their OWN rope to hang themselves > with. > > Look, Ted, your whole existence seems to be a fucking joke, man. You babble > accusoratory, half-thought out nonsense at people whilst living, so it > seems, in a state of near pathological innability to look at yourself. You > need to clear a lot of shit out, my man. Seriously. Drug addiction is just a > microcosm of the human condition. It’s nothing out of the ordinary. All > those therapists use the same techniques for druggies they do for > non-druggies. If you need someone to condemn it’s because you don’t want to > admit you’re a slave. > > Nick > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > Gosh, conflict is wonderful. Where would we be > > > without it. Oh yeah, > > > living our lives experiencing that “freedom” thing > > > we theoretically have, > > > I forgot. Nevermind. > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
___________________________________________________________________
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 5:29:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 10:38:19PM -0700], [Nick Sandberg] wrote:

Nick, I just wanted to say that I miss your active presence.  Having a
life is no excuse for not reading each and every word that emits from
here.

Or at least everything with my name in the headers.

*big kiss*

Patrick

p.s., You’ve made me realize my response to Ted was overly rational. ¬†Go
fuck yourself woulda covered it.

From: “Nick Sandberg” <sandberg@onetel.net.uk>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 26, 2002 at 1:38:19 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

—– Original Message —–
From: Ted Elliot <tedelliot62@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream

That being said, everything is highly flexible.  If
there’s anything
interesting happening, where ibogaine could possibly
fit into the agenda,
then please lemme know. ¬†Sumthin’ could prolly be
worked out.  While I
know absolutely nothing about “activism” — except
that the Libertarian
Party seems to feel this is what we’re doing <shrug>

You do and you are. You have what was a hardcore
hacking site and isp and and has some crazy number of
people connecting to it, who you are now dumping right
into the middle of pscyechedelics and ibogaine.

Look, I’m sorry Ted, but your whole reply and apparently your whole like
BEING is just tooo retarded for you to be on this list which, sadly, I
rarely have time these days to read at such a deep level.

I mean, really……..

Your media kit says it all. Secret service, FBI,
investigations, endless busts. You and your friends
have been in trouble since around the time you were
born. You have never stolen any actual money at least
not that you were ever charged with and caught, you’ve
made people run around in circles chasing you. What
did all of this ever teach any of you looks to be that
with good lawyers you will walk off and get right back
to causing twice as much trouble as you did before.

No-one, like NO-ONE, LEARNS from the justice system, it’s just that,
sometimes, their ego matures and they stop doing the stuff they did, and get
into partners, kids, and things like this. The whole idea that the legal
system for offenders is somehow going to sufficiently condition a person out
of re-offending is nonsensical, as is well known by anyone in power, the
whole concept is solely kept in place for the high number of people who are
basically voting and working fodder and thus totally disrespected by both
the law-makers and the law-breakers. Basically, when you write a paragraph
like the one you just wrote above, the subtext is “I am a total fucking
idiot and you can do what the fuck you like with me.” It’s like “Please,
PLEASE abuse me.”

Activism is just like that, except you add a “cause”

Under most circumstances I think this would present a
problem for you since your mindvox chaos symbol logo
says it all, chaos for the sake of chaos. You don’t
care about anything I don’t think.

Everyone cares. Some admit it, some don’t. It’s impossible not to care. You
couldn’t exist if you didn’t care. There’d be nothing to hold your being in
place.

Your partner is a
perfect example of this too, didn’t Mr. Fancher vote
for Bush? His dad is a ultra liberal demacrat who
started the village voice so of course his son and
your partner is a ultra conservative republican.

Most people who vote for George Bush would have a
problem with mindvox for example. They’d definitely
have a problem with registering domains called
bushknew and starting to fill them crazy conspiracy
nuts talking about the person they voted for.

Purely as a side point, I have to point out that George W wouldn’t know if
someone put shit in his sandwich and told him it was marmite [a UK beef
spread] . He’s a total irrelevancy. No-one would have bothered explaining
Sep11 to him, not because he would have disagreed, but because he wouldn’t
have understood it. He’d just be pointing at the plans and mumbling with
bits of food dribbling out of his mouth.

America’s whole raison d’etre is just as a delaying tactic.

He
doesn’t look to care, because of course it’s more
important to cause trouble. And the only reason he
would have voted for Bush is because he’s rich and
wants to stay rich and get richer, not paying taxes.

The only things you do appear to care about are
psychedelics in general and ibogaine in particular.

There you go. You have a cause.

With your resume I’m sure you’ll cause a lot of damage
to somebody. Whoever you think is on “the other side”

I’m DONE MY
RESEARCH and know all ’bout addiction.

Yes you do.

And at this
point, if anybody with
Ph.D. or MD tagged behind their name wants to
contradict anything I’m
saying, I’m 99.9% certain I can kick their little
fucking bitch ass in.
Without like punching ’em even, using whatever
paradigm they want to play
in.  Woo hoo!

Right. And if they fall into the .01 percent then
you’ll go find them in the parking lot afterwards.

So much for listening to anybody else.

It would be 0.1% actually. And how do even you have the gaul to make a
statement about someone else and then use it to condemn them? Shit, even GW
and his buddies at least give a person their OWN rope to hang themselves
with.

Look, Ted, your whole existence seems to be a fucking joke, man. You babble
accusoratory, half-thought out nonsense at people whilst living, so it
seems, in a state of near pathological innability to look at yourself. You
need to clear a lot of shit out, my man. Seriously. Drug addiction is just a
microcosm of the human condition. It’s nothing out of the ordinary. All
those therapists use the same techniques for druggies they do for
non-druggies. If you need someone to condemn it’s because you don’t want to
admit you’re a slave.

Nick

Patrick

Gosh, conflict is wonderful.  Where would we be
without it.  Oh yeah,
living our lives experiencing that “freedom” thing
we theoretically have,
I forgot.  Nevermind.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] equal protection under the law- a creative exercise for adult eyes
Date: June 25, 2002 at 5:15:44 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, besides posting this from your girlfriend’s
account? and confusing me for a minute this is really
cool. What’s so sad is how true it is.

Carla B

— Vanessa Cleary <vcleary@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
HI all,
Sitting here with most of my current assignments
finished and finally turned in, I decided to write
out an idea, a parable if you will, that popped into
my head nearly whole this afternoon, which you can
read at the following link. I hope that you will
pass it on to whomever you feel may find it
entertaining, or educational.
Peace,
Preston Peet
editor http://www.drugwar.com
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com

Equal Protection Under the Law- a modern day parable
http://www.drugwar.com/pequalprotection.shtm
by Preston Peet
June 24, 2002

Thomas sits on the hard wood bench surrounded by
piles of steaming, stinking shit in Tompkins Square
at 10th and Ave. A. It’s impossible to tell if it’s
human or other, but it sure as hell doesn’t slow him
down.

Middle of the hot summer afternoon in NYC, it has
taken Thomas hours to scam up enough money to score
both coke and dope. His morning third of a bag
wakeup shot has long worn off, leaving him feeling
drained and sore, ready to throw up on his shoes if
he doesn’t get another shot into himself quickly.
The afternoon inline skating hockey game hasn’t
begun, and there’s no annoying groups of kids
playing baseball, so there shouldn’t be any trouble.

He whips out his accoutrements and quickly mixes up
a big fat 40 mil shot, stirring in a bag of each
drug, sucking up the greasy yellow liquid into his
rig. It takes just seconds for him to deftly
register the vein he’s been hitting the last few
days now, on the right side of his left wrist. It’s
a perfect vein that he doesn’t even have to tie off
to hit, making it easy to bang no matter his locale,
unlike his preferred spot in the elbow.

snip-

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] straight inc.
Date: June 25, 2002 at 5:06:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Andria! I’m not Carrie, but I understand how you
could confuse us when you’re replying to 20 letters
all at once ūüôā

The password was posted a while ago to this list, it’s
“wam”

Carla B

— Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
<AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk> wrote:
Carrie

I’ve mailed Synanon site as I was a t Phoenix House,
eons ago; as far as I’m
aware, Phoenix is/was a Synanon program; let’s see
if they let me in! Be
interesting if they do; keep u posted

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London,
SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 11 June 2002 23:28
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] straight inc.

I don’t know what my reaction to all this is. I mean
it’s sick but what they do, not taken to that kind
of
extreme is what happens to almost everyone who is
being ‘treated’ somewhere for drug addiction.

From the people who are hardcore 12 step freaks with
their do it this way or you will die, to counselers,
to lots of situations.

I have sooooooo many friends who are taken advantage
of because they have drug problems and are in
treatment because of legal situations. These are not
rich kids like some of the ibogaine people are, they
are regularily asked to volunteer their time for
free
or below minimum wage to do work for some 12 step
group or another.

I don’t remember where he wrote it, but that was
something Patrick wrote I think last year which I
thought was really hard but it’s true. And I’m sorry
if I’m about to mangle it up Patrick ūüôā “drug
addicts
are the last tribe of niggers on the planet, a
entire
group of people it’s ok to hate, take advantage of,
throw in jail, treat with disrespect, because you
are
guilty of the crime of altering your state of
consciousness against the government’s wishes”.
Where
is that? I know I didn’t quote it right, where’d
that
one go, it was a excellllllent drug war piece. But I
can’t find it anywhere!

With the synanon site how do I get into it? It asks
for a password. What happened with that place, I
remember stories but from when I was 10 or 11, it’s
always been closed as far back as I remember.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Here’s a look at last year’s event, the first one,
for those interested.
Peace,
Preston

http://www.hightimes.com/News/2001_08/DRUGTRET.html
DRUG TREATMENT FOR TEENS: A SECRET SHAME
FILED 08/01/2001

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 5:04:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi, as a really simple request which I know you’re not
going to listen to anyway but could you please save
the personal attacks for the other mindvox lists, at
least one of them is filled with some huge collection
of people who do what you just did all day long and
really like it a lot. That’s great, so do it there.

Before you say all kinds of negative things about
Patrick, what is it that you have done which is so
great?

If you don’t like ibogaine, you don’t like mindvox,
you don’t like Patrick, you don’t like people who do
entheogens, you don’t like all kinds of things.

Why are you signed up on this list exactly???

Carla B

— Ted Elliot <tedelliot62@yahoo.com> wrote:

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:38:38PM +0100],
[Andria
Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Patrick
|
| U should come to more drug policy reform
conferences; there you will meet
| most of the best drug treatmenters in the world,
and no, I ain’t kidding.
| Not that there existence makes me wanna use
again;
just too busy fighting
| the drug war to entertain any silly thoughts
like
that

Hey Andria,

Sure I guess. ¬†The thing is, I’m not like, hangin’
out a lot and wondering
how to fill up my time. ¬†I’m on call, I work every
day, I have 1001 things
to do.  If it pertains to ibogaine and they wanna
gimme plane tickets and
hotels, then I’m more than happy to represent
ibogaine and carefully
explain why anyone opposing it, is a complete
fucking idiot with their
head up their ass — not necessarily using those
exact terms.  With
ibogaine I basically have the blessings of Deborah
to go forth and shed
light.  With everything else, it really depends
what
it’s about, and
whether or not these issues are of importance to
anybody I work for.

That being said, everything is highly flexible.
If
there’s anything
interesting happening, where ibogaine could
possibly
fit into the agenda,
then please lemme know. ¬†Sumthin’ could prolly be
worked out.  While I
know absolutely nothing about “activism” — except
that the Libertarian
Party seems to feel this is what we’re doing
<shrug>

You do and you are. You have what was a hardcore
hacking site and isp and and has some crazy number
of
people connecting to it, who you are now dumping
right
into the middle of pscyechedelics and ibogaine.

Your media kit says it all. Secret service, FBI,
investigations, endless busts. You and your friends
have been in trouble since around the time you were
born. You have never stolen any actual money at
least
not that you were ever charged with and caught,
you’ve
made people run around in circles chasing you. What
did all of this ever teach any of you looks to be
that
with good lawyers you will walk off and get right
back
to causing twice as much trouble as you did before.

Activism is just like that, except you add a “cause”

Under most circumstances I think this would present
a
problem for you since your mindvox chaos symbol logo
says it all, chaos for the sake of chaos. You don’t
care about anything I don’t think. Your partner is a
perfect example of this too, didn’t Mr. Fancher vote
for Bush? His dad is a ultra liberal demacrat who
started the village voice so of course his son and
your partner is a ultra conservative republican.

Most people who vote for George Bush would have a
problem with mindvox for example. They’d definitely
have a problem with registering domains called
bushknew and starting to fill them crazy conspiracy
nuts talking about the person they voted for. He
doesn’t look to care, because of course it’s more
important to cause trouble. And the only reason he
would have voted for Bush is because he’s rich and
wants to stay rich and get richer, not paying taxes.

The only things you do appear to care about are
psychedelics in general and ibogaine in particular.

There you go. You have a cause.

With your resume I’m sure you’ll cause a lot of
damage
to somebody. Whoever you think is on “the other
side”

I’m DONE MY
RESEARCH and know all ’bout addiction.

Yes you do.

And at this
point, if anybody with
Ph.D. or MD tagged behind their name wants to
contradict anything I’m
saying, I’m 99.9% certain I can kick their little
fucking bitch ass in.
Without like punching ’em even, using whatever
paradigm they want to play
in.  Woo hoo!

Right. And if they fall into the .01 percent then
you’ll go find them in the parking lot afterwards.

So much for listening to anybody else.

Patrick

Gosh, conflict is wonderful.  Where would we be
without it.  Oh yeah,
living our lives experiencing that “freedom” thing
we theoretically have,
I forgot.  Nevermind.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction
Date: June 25, 2002 at 4:50:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

One of my best friends is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction.

The detox process sounds awful.

I don’t really know what to do right now except try to be
supportive, but he’s already talking about craving a drink.
Is there any real way to help him?

I suggest finding an Al-anon meeting and going to it.

It’s for people who are connected to alcoholics. Lots of
experience to be found there.

Bill Ross

From: jonarmst <jonarmst@du.edu>
Subject: [ibogaine] My friend is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction
Date: June 25, 2002 at 4:38:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

One of my best friends is currently detoxing from alcohol addiction.  He was
drinking about three-fifths of Smirnoff every day before he finally got
tremors so bad that he could barely move. ¬†What’s really scary is that he told
me he had been drinking like 1.5 fifths of vodka every day for over a year
now, which means every single time I have talked to him he has been drunk.  I
honestly had no idea about any of this at the time.

The detox process sounds awful.  Evidently he just got pumped up with a lot of
Librium and Ativan and his body was supposed to take care of the rest.  Is
this the same wonderful way that people get detoxed from heroin?

I don’t really know what to do right now except try to be supportive, but he’s
already talking about craving a drink.  Is there any real way to help him?
He’s definitely not the 12-step type, he was Harvard admission quality
(seriously) until he destroyed his life with alcohol.

Jonathan

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 3:53:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:05:22PM -0700], [Ted Elliot] wrote:

| You do and you are. You have what was a hardcore
| hacking site and isp and and has some crazy number of
| people connecting to it, who you are now dumping right
| into the middle of pscyechedelics and ibogaine.

Yeah, and so…? ¬†It’s *our* site. ¬†We can fill it up with pr0n if we
want. ¬†I don’t get your point.

| Your media kit says it all. Secret service, FBI,
| investigations, endless busts. You and your friends
| have been in trouble since around the time you were
| born. You have never stolen any actual money at least
| not that you were ever charged with and caught, you’ve
| made people run around in circles chasing you. What
| did all of this ever teach any of you looks to be that
| with good lawyers you will walk off and get right back
| to causing twice as much trouble as you did before.

What an exciting rehash of things that have already been said roughly 800
times <shrug>. ¬†It wuzzn’t me, that wuz my disease, my underlying
psychopathology, and perhaps my id. ¬†I can’t accept responsibility for any
of that. ¬†Even if it was fun. ¬†No wait, I didn’t say that.

| Activism is just like that, except you add a “cause”

Cool! ¬†That’s what I suspected when people started HURLING that ALLEGATION
in my face. ¬†I was confused at first. ¬†You’re a <asshole/criminal/pain in
the ass> I’m used to. ¬†That activist word is new.

| Under most circumstances I think this would present a
| problem for you since your mindvox chaos symbol logo
| says it all, chaos for the sake of chaos. You don’t
| care about anything I don’t think. Your partner is a
| perfect example of this too, didn’t Mr. Fancher vote
| for Bush? His dad is a ultra liberal demacrat who
| started the village voice so of course his son and
| your partner is a ultra conservative republican.

Shhhh! ¬†Don’t TELL! ¬†It’s a SECRET!

Plus, also, Chaos Rocks!

| Most people who vote for George Bush would have a
| problem with mindvox for example. They’d definitely
| have a problem with registering domains called
| bushknew and starting to fill them crazy conspiracy
| nuts talking about the person they voted for. He
| doesn’t look to care, because of course it’s more
| important to cause trouble. And the only reason he
| would have voted for Bush is because he’s rich and
| wants to stay rich and get richer, not paying taxes.

Yeah, and so?

| The only things you do appear to care about are
| psychedelics in general and ibogaine in particular.

That’s not true. ¬†Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll, religion, art, knowledge, are
also pretty cool and worthwhile.  Of course entheogens sorta help to
blend, fuse, and re-assemble all those different flavors and vibrations.

| There you go. You have a cause.

Thanks!

| > saying, I’m 99.9% certain I can kick their little
| > fucking bitch ass in.
| > Without like punching ’em even, using whatever
| > paradigm they want to play
| > in.  Woo hoo!
|
| Right. And if they fall into the .01 percent then
| you’ll go find them in the parking lot afterwards.

<Giggle>

| So much for listening to anybody else.

Look, that’s the OLD ME. ¬†I’m very good at pretending to listen! ¬†When
other people — treatment “professionals” and those involved in
addictionology — move their lips, vibrate the air, and emit nonsense,
that’s your cue to put on a thoughtful expression and act like they’re
saying something very important. ¬†Once they’ve stopped, it’s your turn to
eat their fucking life and explain why they’re so very wrong.

You’re talking debates anyway. ¬†Conferences don’t have that so much.

In conclusion, gosh you sure do have a lot of answers Ted.  Good luck with
that whole entire being strung out thing.  Lemme know when your wisdom has
sorted it all out.

Patrick

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 25, 2002 at 3:44:11 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Rick,

Not exactly to your qualifications but may help.

I have used ibo more than twice, not in a long time
and last at booster level dosages – you would have to
be one real bad-ass to hold me down for a full dose
(anti-addictive levels)… again. Note that some
protocols do include using booster dosages, not full
re-treats (somewhat different animal at about 1/2 the
amount used for addiction).

I was addicted to opiates once upon a time but that is
not why I took ibo. The opiate addiction(s) were by
prescription and not H or other abuse, though I did
get a few chippies now and then (I was a “smart”
addict). Interestingly, since taking ibo, opiates urk
me when I take them – Vicodin mainly – even bothers me
days after, codeine or oxycodone only bother me
usually while it is in my body, not much after if at
all. Depends on how much I take and over what period
of time as to the side effects. YOu have no idea how
many times I was in serious pain and went to the
cabinet to get a pill, opened it, looked at them and
went YUCK!!!! and didn’t. This never would have
happened pre-ibo, I had no special love for opiates
(it went with the coke…), had no problem keeping a
bottle in the medicine cabinet for a year or more and
had no problems/side effects from taking any (not even
a buzz – which now that I took the ibo, I do get on
occasion, from 1 pill!!! Hell I use to swallow a dozen
and nothing, nada, zero…). Mostly, it is tylenol and
asprin/ibuprofen and believe me, if I could stand them
I would take more (dope!), I can’t since the ibo –
maybe “just as well”…

Drug free… well, let me put it this way. There is an
herbal substance I once used, from the age of about 16
to, oh, about 30 and rarely after that (eg New Years
Eve) That was till I started getting severe headaches
and intense nausea with them and now I use it in very
small amounts. It does help and is better than taking
more pain meds. So, if I told you I would have to eat
a whole lot more vicodin or use this herbal substance
instead, which would you pick? I did in fact cut
narcotic use way down after I started (again) using
herbs… not that I used a lot of narcotics in the
first place.

Let me also point out that if someone came to me
addicted to/abusing  several drugs and wanted to do
ibo to stop, it would be common for one of the
following to happen;

They stop them all.
They don’t stop any
They stop one, two, 3 or more but not all
They cut way down on some, stop others and continue
others… or something to that effect.
If it was a single drug addiction they stop, don’t
stop or reduce use.
I have never heard of anyone starting a fresh
addiction with a new drug post an ibogaine treatment –
eg stopping H and starting to drink.
They may need a re-treat, booster or not, IMO success
would be better if a 2nd treatment/booster (or 3rd)
was given as standard treatment with some exceptions
(but be ready…), or at least taken as a given that
it will be needed and thankful if it isn’t.

“or other substances to catch a lift.”

DAM! I forgot about nicotine, caffine and sugar…
Does fresh air also count, that O2 going to my brain
in the morning seems to wake me up <g>

Brett

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
I am curious…How many people on this list have
been opiate addicted,
have only used Ibogaine 1-2x, and have been drug
free over a year?

By “drug-free,” I refer to not using any illegal
drug, and/or abusing
alcohol or prescription medications, or other
substances to catch a
lift.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

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__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Ted Elliot <tedelliot62@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 3:05:22 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:38:38PM +0100], [Andria
Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Patrick
|
| U should come to more drug policy reform
conferences; there you will meet
| most of the best drug treatmenters in the world,
and no, I ain’t kidding.
| Not that there existence makes me wanna use again;
just too busy fighting
| the drug war to entertain any silly thoughts like
that

Hey Andria,

Sure I guess. ¬†The thing is, I’m not like, hangin’
out a lot and wondering
how to fill up my time. ¬†I’m on call, I work every
day, I have 1001 things
to do.  If it pertains to ibogaine and they wanna
gimme plane tickets and
hotels, then I’m more than happy to represent
ibogaine and carefully
explain why anyone opposing it, is a complete
fucking idiot with their
head up their ass — not necessarily using those
exact terms.  With
ibogaine I basically have the blessings of Deborah
to go forth and shed
light.  With everything else, it really depends what
it’s about, and
whether or not these issues are of importance to
anybody I work for.

That being said, everything is highly flexible.  If
there’s anything
interesting happening, where ibogaine could possibly
fit into the agenda,
then please lemme know. ¬†Sumthin’ could prolly be
worked out.  While I
know absolutely nothing about “activism” — except
that the Libertarian
Party seems to feel this is what we’re doing <shrug>

You do and you are. You have what was a hardcore
hacking site and isp and and has some crazy number of
people connecting to it, who you are now dumping right
into the middle of pscyechedelics and ibogaine.

Your media kit says it all. Secret service, FBI,
investigations, endless busts. You and your friends
have been in trouble since around the time you were
born. You have never stolen any actual money at least
not that you were ever charged with and caught, you’ve
made people run around in circles chasing you. What
did all of this ever teach any of you looks to be that
with good lawyers you will walk off and get right back
to causing twice as much trouble as you did before.

Activism is just like that, except you add a “cause”

Under most circumstances I think this would present a
problem for you since your mindvox chaos symbol logo
says it all, chaos for the sake of chaos. You don’t
care about anything I don’t think. Your partner is a
perfect example of this too, didn’t Mr. Fancher vote
for Bush? His dad is a ultra liberal demacrat who
started the village voice so of course his son and
your partner is a ultra conservative republican.

Most people who vote for George Bush would have a
problem with mindvox for example. They’d definitely
have a problem with registering domains called
bushknew and starting to fill them crazy conspiracy
nuts talking about the person they voted for. He
doesn’t look to care, because of course it’s more
important to cause trouble. And the only reason he
would have voted for Bush is because he’s rich and
wants to stay rich and get richer, not paying taxes.

The only things you do appear to care about are
psychedelics in general and ibogaine in particular.

There you go. You have a cause.

With your resume I’m sure you’ll cause a lot of damage
to somebody. Whoever you think is on “the other side”

I’m DONE MY
RESEARCH and know all ’bout addiction.

Yes you do.

And at this
point, if anybody with
Ph.D. or MD tagged behind their name wants to
contradict anything I’m
saying, I’m 99.9% certain I can kick their little
fucking bitch ass in.
Without like punching ’em even, using whatever
paradigm they want to play
in.  Woo hoo!

Right. And if they fall into the .01 percent then
you’ll go find them in the parking lot afterwards.

So much for listening to anybody else.

Patrick

Gosh, conflict is wonderful.  Where would we be
without it.  Oh yeah,
living our lives experiencing that “freedom” thing
we theoretically have,
I forgot.  Nevermind.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] How many??
Date: June 25, 2002 at 2:42:16 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I am curious…How many people on this list have been opiate addicted,
have only used Ibogaine 1-2x, and have been drug free over a year?

By “drug-free,” I refer to not using any illegal drug, and/or abusing
alcohol or prescription medications, or other substances to catch a
lift.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: saucertrips <saucertrips@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Some questions
Date: June 25, 2002 at 2:16:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Blowing off steam
Date: June 25, 2002 at 2:15:01 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I consider it a great poverty that I have only one life, as nearly
everything I have put my hand to I have found that I can do well and end
up loving it to the Nth degree. ¬†Therein lies the problem…I cannot do
and be all things…and this is truly a sadness for me. So, for the
moment, in many ways I am both a “treatmenter” and an “advocate,” and in
other aspects of my life I am something else entirely.  Hopefully one
day I will synthesize all my knowledge, passion, and interests into one
over-arching purpose.  That day has not yet come, so I wait, loving
everything that I do…except laundry:)

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 06/25/02 01:41PM >>>
Dear Rick

This is the sort of BS that made me set up the John Mordaunt Trust,
after
the death of his namesake (my late partner) to AIDS

Maybe, u should be an advocate rather than a treatmenter?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 17 June 2002 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Blowing off steam

This is the ridiculous kind of crap that needs to end.  To make a long
story short:
1.  A few months ago, we switched to oral drug testing.
2.  After a large number of confirmed false positives (via LCMS
retesting), we decided to go back to urine testing.
3.  To use up the supply of oral tests, the nurses still do them on a
semi-regular basis.

My gripes:
4. ¬†Patient #1…not enough to retest the sample. ¬†The positive
stands.
Never mind that he’s been drug-free for 3-4 years. ¬†Sorry about you
losing them take-homes, buddy, and screwing with your work schedule.
5. ¬†Patient #2…the LCMS comes back a confirmed NEGATIVE. ¬†Well, it
doesn’t matter…”he got a urine screen a day or two later that was
positive” as well. ¬†So I kindly reply, “when he comes in, ¬†remind him
he
can do GCMS confirmation if he wishes.” ¬†The response? ¬†“Why
bother…he’s obviously dirty.” ¬†After a lengthy explanation…”I
still
don’t know why he’d want to waste his money?” ¬†Hello!!! ¬†Pretty scary.

I could go on.  I never cease to be amazed at the sheer idiocy that
can
goes on. ¬†Guess I get to “fight the good fight” again in our staff
meeting this week.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thinking out loud
Date: June 25, 2002 at 1:52:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:25:24PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| PK
|
| Carrie’s 2 goals were/are?

I really dunno her well enough to say. ¬†I’d guess she might have even MORE
than two goals!

As it pertained to her message, my point was that she smooshed together
two disparate concepts and was tripping back and forth through them.

Goal #1 being: gaining insights, experiences, whatever, from using an
entheogen.

Goal #2 being: using all of that, and fusing it into some sort of OUTPUT,
in her case writing.

1 and 2 are not the same.  Finding you have not been transformed into
<something else> overnight, in no way indicates you have “failed” or
obtained any less, from your primary goal.  It just means you might wanna
work at goal #2 and practice a bit.  Not a biggee.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 1:33:43 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:38:38PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Patrick
|
| U should come to more drug policy reform conferences; there you will meet
| most of the best drug treatmenters in the world, and no, I ain’t kidding.
| Not that there existence makes me wanna use again; just too busy fighting
| the drug war to entertain any silly thoughts like that

Hey Andria,

Sure I guess. ¬†The thing is, I’m not like, hangin’ out a lot and wondering
how to fill up my time. ¬†I’m on call, I work every day, I have 1001 things
to do.  If it pertains to ibogaine and they wanna gimme plane tickets and
hotels, then I’m more than happy to represent ibogaine and carefully
explain why anyone opposing it, is a complete fucking idiot with their
head up their ass — not necessarily using those exact terms. ¬†With
ibogaine I basically have the blessings of Deborah to go forth and shed
light. ¬†With everything else, it really depends what it’s about, and
whether or not these issues are of importance to anybody I work for.

That being said, everything is highly flexible. ¬†If there’s anything
interesting happening, where ibogaine could possibly fit into the agenda,
then please lemme know. ¬†Sumthin’ could prolly be worked out. ¬†While I
know absolutely nothing about “activism” — except that the Libertarian
Party seems to feel this is what we’re doing <shrug> — I’m DONE MY
RESEARCH and know all ’bout addiction. ¬†And at this point, if anybody with
Ph.D. or MD tagged behind their name wants to contradict anything I’m
saying, I’m 99.9% certain I can kick their little fucking bitch ass in.
Without like punching ’em even, using whatever paradigm they want to play
in.  Woo hoo!

Patrick

Gosh, conflict is wonderful.  Where would we be without it.  Oh yeah,
living our lives experiencing that “freedom” thing we theoretically have,
I forgot.  Nevermind.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Blowing off steam
Date: June 25, 2002 at 1:41:11 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Rick

This is the sort of BS that made me set up the John Mordaunt Trust, after
the death of his namesake (my late partner) to AIDS

Maybe, u should be an advocate rather than a treatmenter?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 17 June 2002 17:11
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Blowing off steam

This is the ridiculous kind of crap that needs to end.  To make a long
story short:
1.  A few months ago, we switched to oral drug testing.
2.  After a large number of confirmed false positives (via LCMS
retesting), we decided to go back to urine testing.
3.  To use up the supply of oral tests, the nurses still do them on a
semi-regular basis.

My gripes:
4. ¬†Patient #1…not enough to retest the sample. ¬†The positive stands.
Never mind that he’s been drug-free for 3-4 years. ¬†Sorry about you
losing them take-homes, buddy, and screwing with your work schedule.
5. ¬†Patient #2…the LCMS comes back a confirmed NEGATIVE. ¬†Well, it
doesn’t matter…”he got a urine screen a day or two later that was
positive” as well. ¬†So I kindly reply, “when he comes in, ¬†remind him he
can do GCMS confirmation if he wishes.” ¬†The response? ¬†“Why
bother…he’s obviously dirty.” ¬†After a lengthy explanation…”I still
don’t know why he’d want to waste his money?” ¬†Hello!!! ¬†Pretty scary.

I could go on.  I never cease to be amazed at the sheer idiocy that can
goes on. ¬†Guess I get to “fight the good fight” again in our staff
meeting this week.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 25, 2002 at 1:36:49 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Can whomever Vector is please separate his/her words from others, as I find it impossible to read the messages you send, which may well be well-worth reading

Vecto, r u reading me?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: vector6@space.com [mailto:vector6@space.com]
Sent: 16 June 2002 04:37
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!

Don’t feel bad, I listen to classic rock too. Pearl Jam isn’t bad with the older material. I hate what they do now. STP is cool. Scott Weiland is like the Robert Downey Jr. of alt-rock ūüôā He’s spent what 5 years in prison in the last 10 years? I remember every time they were going on tour, there’s a cover story Scott Weiland clean and high on life! And 2 weeks after that, he’s arrested for posession again. That’s happened at least 3 or 4 times, usually every time they are about to tour. .:vector:. On Sat, 15 June 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote > > On [Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 10:15:55AM -0400], [preston peet] wrote: > > | >We chanted, we marched, we sang…and then the blood ran in the streets > | while everyone else decided they’d rather watch television.< > | > | >The greatest lesson of Woodstock (for you dear Rick-P) was that if you give (some) people a few > | chemicals, and their MTV, they’ll stay the hell out of the way and > | willingly wallow around in mud and their own filth. The revolution > | already happened…the other guys won by pulling the wool over our eyes,< > | > | Same comment as above, please speak for yourself. Personalize this, and > | please do not include me in your personal view of how you think things > | are. There’s no wool over my eyes, thanks kindly. And if you turn MTV > | on on my tv, you’ll be in trouble. > > I uh, just feel the need to SHARE. I’ve had a wonderful evening… > sometime, a while back, during a moment of weakness — and i SWORE it > would never happen again, at all. The last time really was gonna be the > last time, but I did it just ONE MORE time… And I inserted the Pearl > Jam, Ten CD… And listened to the ENTIRE THING … and, it sounded > pretty good … I… I did it one more time… > Right now I’m listening to Stone Temple Pilots, Core… I’m really gonna > stop, I SWEAR, just as soon as it’s over….. I never watch EmptyV, or > EmptyV2… as far as you know… What are you accusing me of anyway? > > Okay, just had to let that all out. Tomorrow I will listen to NOTHING but > Skinny Puppy, and MUSIC that Drew has sent me over the last 2 months… > Which is currently something that sounds like some guy smashing his fist > into a broken ukulele, remixed in techno… Hopefully — this time — > forever and ever, ensuring that nothing he listens to will ever be liked > by more than 5 people on the planet… All of them apparently living in > Paris and CREATING this greatness for internet radio. > > G’night, > > Patrick
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 25, 2002 at 1:25:33 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HCV is NOT usually fatal; but it is usual that we will suffer chronic illness at low, middle or high levels. About 10% of us are possibly life-threatened.

Take care

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 25 June 2002 17:20
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Thanks Rick, much obliged.
I see your point about the liver transplant, and subsequent drugs too.
That said, isn’t it also true that not everyone with Hep C goes on to loose their liver? Or is Hep C usually fatal? Or do we not really know yet? As previously noted, I’ve done quite a bit of reading now on Hep C, but I haven’t really come across figures that lay this out clearly, the numbers of deaths resulting directly from Hep C, or someone’s chances for death from Hep C, oddly enough.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Here are a couple of options you could check out…

1.   LOTS of medical colleges and hospitals are doing clinical trials
for the pegolated interferon…whichi does have, as you indicate, a much
higher success rate.  Call around.
2.¬† Schering-plough also has a program called “Commitment to care”
which pays for all of the meds, but not diagnostic tests, bloodwork,
etc….I think they may have something on their website.¬† You can sign
up as an individual and have the info. forwarded to your doctor, or have
your doctor sign you up…which my Hep. C resource says is quicker.

…and yeah, you’ll probably feel pretty sick (although I DO have
clients who haven’t experienced ANY weakness or sickness at all…go
figger), but it beats the hell out of a liver transplant, anti-rejection
drugs, and the high risk of developing cancer as a result of taking
those drugs.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

>>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/25/02 10:51AM >>>
>Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other
way round<

Interestingly enough, I was just at my doctor’s last week. She said,
“you’re not actually getting any treatment for Hep C, right”
Nope, I replied. When I got my biopsy a couple or 3 years ago, the
doctors then were like, “hey, you’re ok now, you’re liver is swollen but
not cirrhosis-fied. Still, let’s bombard you with interferon anyway, and
blast that ol’ Hep right out of you.”
Having just done lots of research on interferon at that time, I
said, “no thank you. I like my hair where it is thanks kindly. And I’m
not overly fond of feeling like I have the flu either, or dealing with
massive depression, or any of the other side effects that commonly hit
people taking interferon/ribovirin, with only a 30 percent or so success
rate.”
So I didn’t accept their offer.
At that point, I had medicare, and could have gotten treatment paid
for. Now that I’m making so much money, (LOLOLOL), I can’t afford
medicare. Isn’t that something? Sooo, I can’t afford liver care.
That said, speaking with my doctor last week, (who bless her heart
only charges me the barest minimum for treating me- there’s still
doctors out there in it for the healing, not the cash-surprise,
surprise- she’s also into the idea of medical marijuana and isn’t
bothered in the slightest that I use pot, even knowing my hard-core
junky past, and she hates dealing with HMOs- a very interesting
discussion I had with her) she told me there’s a new treatment out for
Hep C, one that has raised that success rate to nearly 80 percent, if
one fits into a very narrow classification of sick, but not for all Hep
C sufferers apparently. It’s called Pegylated Interferon and Ribovirin.
doesn’t sound much different to Interferon/Ribavirin now, does it? She
said, “once you get insurance, or can afford to get treated, you might
want to think about this one.” LOL, that’s rich, as I’m not rich. I
can’t imagine trying to work all day every day while taking that crap,
nor do I see insurance looming in my near future.
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression;
the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the
constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even
more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that
I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other
way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read
somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it,
that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true
to anyone else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve
left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my
mood lately in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is
resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down,
but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com
wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on
hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email
me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

>
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this
summer. i’ve had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load,
and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do
you think i
> have anything to worry about?
> Poppy
>
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost
me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it
comes to
>> “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
>>
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do
such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the
very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It
was honest and: 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE:
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become
unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing
to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction,
I think that
>> says volumes.
>>
>> On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction
treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would
be one of my
>> nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am,
understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being
smart isn’t
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone
like that.
>>
>> I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for
fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>>
>>
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>>
>>
>>
>> “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May
22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>>
>> | Jon
>> |
>> | Which country are you in?
>>
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a
state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away
from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>>
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full
Blodd Counts)
>> but
>> | as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy
on the state
>> of
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to
Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my
teacher on
>> HCV)
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book
each 2 yrs or
>> so
>>
>> Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory,
into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
>> pretty simple:
>>
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is
not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a
biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard,
simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really
wacked,
>> then you are more or less — probably — okay.
>>
>> This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a
really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome
p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain
percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>>
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is
a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an
active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in
other parts of
>> the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It
should not
>> be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to
be safe …
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine
isn’t being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with
shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>>
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment
where there
>> isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from
dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>>
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>>
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been
published
>> already.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going.
(presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else
is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Now… Here’s the great big grey area…
>>
>> What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.
>>
>> Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very
healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being
shot, OD’ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater
number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with
them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep
right on
>> living.
>>
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with
ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or
was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody
would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone +
roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get
“normal”).
>>
>> All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma,
luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not
old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid
shit I’ve
>> done to myself.
>>
>> However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged,
said, “oh
>> well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible
treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do
not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this
is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit,
it’s not
>> like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>>
>> What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I
would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just
Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results
from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that
their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single
call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not
gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care
what you
>> want or don’t want.
>>
>> And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do
same, or
>> something similar.
>>
>> This is called desperation.
>>
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I
absolutely think
>> people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to
get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there
to deal
>> with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what
to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing
anybody who
>> fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful
equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.
>>
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over,
better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a
dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite
possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good
your
>> intentions were.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would
have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the
best, and I
>> wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe…
This may be
>> stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time
the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to
support my
>> feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened,
“hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this
situation/place
>> ‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and
approaching very
>> rapidly.”
>>
>> Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all
fucked up and
>> acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through
withdrawal,
>> or because there’s something seriously wrong with them…
Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>>
>> Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate,
tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to
lose.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> ———————————
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 25, 2002 at 1:02:54 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

for anyone interested, Here is the number for Schering’s Committment to
Care program:  1-800-521-7157.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/25/02 12:19PM >>>
Thanks Rick, much obliged.
I see your point about the liver transplant, and subsequent drugs too.
That said, isn’t it also true that not everyone with Hep C goes on to
loose their liver? Or is Hep C usually fatal? Or do we not really know
yet? As previously noted, I’ve done quite a bit of reading now on Hep C,
but I haven’t really come across figures that lay this out clearly, the
numbers of deaths resulting directly from Hep C, or someone’s chances
for death from Hep C, oddly enough.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Here are a couple of options you could check out…

1.   LOTS of medical colleges and hospitals are doing clinical
trials
for the pegolated interferon…whichi does have, as you indicate, a
much
higher success rate.  Call around.
2. ¬†Schering-plough also has a program called “Commitment to care”
which pays for all of the meds, but not diagnostic tests, bloodwork,
etc….I think they may have something on their website. ¬†You can
sign
up as an individual and have the info. forwarded to your doctor, or
have
your doctor sign you up…which my Hep. C resource says is quicker.

…and yeah, you’ll probably feel pretty sick (although I DO have
clients who haven’t experienced ANY weakness or sickness at all…go
figger), but it beats the hell out of a liver transplant,
anti-rejection
drugs, and the high risk of developing cancer as a result of taking
those drugs.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/25/02 10:51AM >>>
Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the
other
way round<

Interestingly enough, I was just at my doctor’s last week. She said,
“you’re not actually getting any treatment for Hep C, right”
Nope, I replied. When I got my biopsy a couple or 3 years ago,
the
doctors then were like, “hey, you’re ok now, you’re liver is swollen
but
not cirrhosis-fied. Still, let’s bombard you with interferon anyway,
and
blast that ol’ Hep right out of you.”
Having just done lots of research on interferon at that time, I
said, “no thank you. I like my hair where it is thanks kindly. And
I’m
not overly fond of feeling like I have the flu either, or dealing
with
massive depression, or any of the other side effects that commonly
hit
people taking interferon/ribovirin, with only a 30 percent or so
success
rate.”
So I didn’t accept their offer.
At that point, I had medicare, and could have gotten treatment
paid
for. Now that I’m making so much money, (LOLOLOL), I can’t afford
medicare. Isn’t that something? Sooo, I can’t afford liver care.
That said, speaking with my doctor last week, (who bless her
heart
only charges me the barest minimum for treating me- there’s still
doctors out there in it for the healing, not the cash-surprise,
surprise- she’s also into the idea of medical marijuana and isn’t
bothered in the slightest that I use pot, even knowing my hard-core
junky past, and she hates dealing with HMOs- a very interesting
discussion I had with her) she told me there’s a new treatment out
for
Hep C, one that has raised that success rate to nearly 80 percent,
if
one fits into a very narrow classification of sick, but not for all
Hep
C sufferers apparently. It’s called Pegylated Interferon and
Ribovirin.
doesn’t sound much different to Interferon/Ribavirin now, does it?
She
said, “once you get insurance, or can afford to get treated, you
might
want to think about this one.” LOL, that’s rich, as I’m not rich. I
can’t imagine trying to work all day every day while taking that
crap,
nor do I see insurance looming in my near future.
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond
before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression;
the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is
the
constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us
even
more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not
that
I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the
other
way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve
read
somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets
it,
that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this
true
to anyone else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve
left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting
my
mood lately in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is
resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down,
but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com

wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on
hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then
email
me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this
summer. i’ve had
hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral
load,
and my liver
enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year.
Do
you think i
have anything to worry about?
Poppy

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)

On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve
lost
me. I
understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it
comes to
“Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.

I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you
do
such a good
job of spanning the range of objective observations to the
very personal.
Which I thought was very important in what you expressed.
It
was honest and: 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE:
describes the desperation of people who are trying to
become
unaddicted.
When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are
willing
to play
russian roulette at even the chance to escape their
addiction,
I think that
says volumes.

On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction
treatment
personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that
would
be one of my
nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am,
understands
addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being
smart isn’t
enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone
like that.

I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for
fascinating
reading. Thanks to all of you!

Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed,
May
22, 2002
at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Jon
|
| Which country are you in?

John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in
a
state of
insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away
from where I
am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.

| You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full
Blodd Counts)
but
| as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full
mckoy
on the state
of
| ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to
Mat Dolan, who
| wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is
my
teacher on
HCV)
| cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his
book
each 2 yrs or
so

Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and
theory,
into the
dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But
it’s
pretty simple:

Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it
is
not possible
to accurately and exactly test liver function without a
biopsy. However,
this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard,
simple blood
tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up
really
wacked,
then you are more or less — probably — okay.

This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a
really good
idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6
[Cytochrome
p450 2D6])
for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a
certain
percentage
of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.

Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer
is
a much lower
dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an
active/uncontrolled state,
lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in
other parts of
the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here.
It
should not
be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine
to
be safe …
the end result can still be a dead body, because the
ibogaine
isn’t being
metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up
with
shit like
Q-T prolongation and torsades.

And if you wind up with these situations in an environment
where there
isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from
dropping dead.
Presto, you gots a dead body.

In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.

None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been
published
already.

– – – – – – – – –

To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going.
(presuming
this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing
else
is really
wacked the fuck out.)

– – – – – – – – –

Now… Here’s the great big grey area…

What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.

Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very
healthy people
who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being
shot, OD’ing,
or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or
greater
number of
people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong
with
them, who
really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep
right on
living.

To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with
ibogaine, I lied
about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was
or
was not
taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody
would even
attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone +
roughly 2
grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just
get
“normal”).

All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to
karma,
luck,
genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and
not
old enough to
have suffered direct physical consequences from all the
stupid
shit I’ve
done to myself.

However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged,
said, “oh
well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible
treatment? FUCK
NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I
do
not give
a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me
this
is my life,
I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a
shit,
it’s not
like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.

What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I
would have
simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just
Super Fine
Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results
from a doctor
or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch
that
their phones
are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single
call going into
or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not
gonna stop me,
I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t
care
what you
want or don’t want.

And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do
same, or
something similar.

This is called desperation.

To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I
absolutely think
people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to
get their
lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables
there
to deal
with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows
what
to do in the
event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re
dosing
anybody who
fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful
equipment
onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.

Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are
over,
better luck
in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have
a
dead body,
and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s
quite
possible you
will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how
good
your
intentions were.

– – – – – – – – –

Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would
have at the
very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for
the
best, and I
wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative
vibe…
This may be
stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single
time
the alarms
went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence
to
support my
feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I
listened,
“hey
Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this
situation/place
‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and
approaching very
rapidly.”

Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all
fucked up and
acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through
withdrawal,
or because there’s something seriously wrong with them…
Getting that
answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.

Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are
desperate,
tend to lie
an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to
lose.

Patrick

———————————
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LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
http://messenger.msn.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 25, 2002 at 1:00:10 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Good questions.  Not everyone with Hep C will go on to lose their liver.
Around 30% of those with Hep C do progress to chirrhosis.  Given the
slow, progressive nature of the disease (10-40 years last I read), a
clear answer isn’t really forthcoming re: whether it is “usually fatal.”
If a person is diagnosed at 30 and had the disease only a couple of
years, they may be fall into a number of categories…they throw off the
infection, they progress quickly, or they progress slowly. They might
well outlive the disease without any kind of treatment…which seems to
be be the reason for not pushing for treating people who are
asymptomatic.  Approximately 4 million people are infected with chronic
HCV, and 10,000 deaths per year are related to it, making it the leading
cause for liver transplants.  All of it depends on your date of
infection, your immune system, genetics, and other exacerbating issues
(drug and alcohol use, HIV), whether a person is symptomatic, etc.

Granted, none of the medication side-effects are very desirable.  Our
HIV/Hep C specialist stays way up on top of the latest information, so
going by what she says…which appears to be the new direction of HCV
treatment…the best approach is to hit it hard and hit it fast with
Interferon to drive the virus down. If/when a person relapses and the
virus climbs again, hit it hard with the pegolated therapy.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/25/02 12:19PM >>>
Thanks Rick, much obliged.
I see your point about the liver transplant, and subsequent drugs too.
That said, isn’t it also true that not everyone with Hep C goes on to
loose their liver? Or is Hep C usually fatal? Or do we not really know
yet? As previously noted, I’ve done quite a bit of reading now on Hep C,
but I haven’t really come across figures that lay this out clearly, the
numbers of deaths resulting directly from Hep C, or someone’s chances
for death from Hep C, oddly enough.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Here are a couple of options you could check out…

1.   LOTS of medical colleges and hospitals are doing clinical
trials
for the pegolated interferon…whichi does have, as you indicate, a
much
higher success rate.  Call around.
2. ¬†Schering-plough also has a program called “Commitment to care”
which pays for all of the meds, but not diagnostic tests, bloodwork,
etc….I think they may have something on their website. ¬†You can
sign
up as an individual and have the info. forwarded to your doctor, or
have
your doctor sign you up…which my Hep. C resource says is quicker.

…and yeah, you’ll probably feel pretty sick (although I DO have
clients who haven’t experienced ANY weakness or sickness at all…go
figger), but it beats the hell out of a liver transplant,
anti-rejection
drugs, and the high risk of developing cancer as a result of taking
those drugs.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/25/02 10:51AM >>>
Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the
other
way round<

Interestingly enough, I was just at my doctor’s last week. She said,
“you’re not actually getting any treatment for Hep C, right”
Nope, I replied. When I got my biopsy a couple or 3 years ago,
the
doctors then were like, “hey, you’re ok now, you’re liver is swollen
but
not cirrhosis-fied. Still, let’s bombard you with interferon anyway,
and
blast that ol’ Hep right out of you.”
Having just done lots of research on interferon at that time, I
said, “no thank you. I like my hair where it is thanks kindly. And
I’m
not overly fond of feeling like I have the flu either, or dealing
with
massive depression, or any of the other side effects that commonly
hit
people taking interferon/ribovirin, with only a 30 percent or so
success
rate.”
So I didn’t accept their offer.
At that point, I had medicare, and could have gotten treatment
paid
for. Now that I’m making so much money, (LOLOLOL), I can’t afford
medicare. Isn’t that something? Sooo, I can’t afford liver care.
That said, speaking with my doctor last week, (who bless her
heart
only charges me the barest minimum for treating me- there’s still
doctors out there in it for the healing, not the cash-surprise,
surprise- she’s also into the idea of medical marijuana and isn’t
bothered in the slightest that I use pot, even knowing my hard-core
junky past, and she hates dealing with HMOs- a very interesting
discussion I had with her) she told me there’s a new treatment out
for
Hep C, one that has raised that success rate to nearly 80 percent,
if
one fits into a very narrow classification of sick, but not for all
Hep
C sufferers apparently. It’s called Pegylated Interferon and
Ribovirin.
doesn’t sound much different to Interferon/Ribavirin now, does it?
She
said, “once you get insurance, or can afford to get treated, you
might
want to think about this one.” LOL, that’s rich, as I’m not rich. I
can’t imagine trying to work all day every day while taking that
crap,
nor do I see insurance looming in my near future.
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond
before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression;
the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is
the
constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us
even
more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not
that
I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the
other
way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve
read
somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets
it,
that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this
true
to anyone else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve
left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting
my
mood lately in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is
resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down,
but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com

wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on
hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then
email
me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this
summer. i’ve had
hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral
load,
and my liver
enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year.
Do
you think i
have anything to worry about?
Poppy

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)

On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve
lost
me. I
understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it
comes to
“Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.

I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you
do
such a good
job of spanning the range of objective observations to the
very personal.
Which I thought was very important in what you expressed.
It
was honest and: 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE:
describes the desperation of people who are trying to
become
unaddicted.
When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are
willing
to play
russian roulette at even the chance to escape their
addiction,
I think that
says volumes.

On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction
treatment
personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that
would
be one of my
nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am,
understands
addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being
smart isn’t
enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone
like that.

I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for
fascinating
reading. Thanks to all of you!

Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed,
May
22, 2002
at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Jon
|
| Which country are you in?

John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in
a
state of
insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away
from where I
am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.

| You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full
Blodd Counts)
but
| as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full
mckoy
on the state
of
| ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to
Mat Dolan, who
| wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is
my
teacher on
HCV)
| cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his
book
each 2 yrs or
so

Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and
theory,
into the
dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But
it’s
pretty simple:

Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it
is
not possible
to accurately and exactly test liver function without a
biopsy. However,
this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard,
simple blood
tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up
really
wacked,
then you are more or less — probably — okay.

This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a
really good
idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6
[Cytochrome
p450 2D6])
for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a
certain
percentage
of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.

Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer
is
a much lower
dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an
active/uncontrolled state,
lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in
other parts of
the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here.
It
should not
be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine
to
be safe …
the end result can still be a dead body, because the
ibogaine
isn’t being
metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up
with
shit like
Q-T prolongation and torsades.

And if you wind up with these situations in an environment
where there
isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from
dropping dead.
Presto, you gots a dead body.

In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.

None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been
published
already.

– – – – – – – – –

To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going.
(presuming
this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing
else
is really
wacked the fuck out.)

– – – – – – – – –

Now… Here’s the great big grey area…

What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.

Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very
healthy people
who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being
shot, OD’ing,
or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or
greater
number of
people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong
with
them, who
really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep
right on
living.

To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with
ibogaine, I lied
about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was
or
was not
taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody
would even
attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone +
roughly 2
grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just
get
“normal”).

All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to
karma,
luck,
genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and
not
old enough to
have suffered direct physical consequences from all the
stupid
shit I’ve
done to myself.

However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged,
said, “oh
well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible
treatment? FUCK
NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I
do
not give
a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me
this
is my life,
I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a
shit,
it’s not
like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.

What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I
would have
simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just
Super Fine
Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results
from a doctor
or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch
that
their phones
are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single
call going into
or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not
gonna stop me,
I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t
care
what you
want or don’t want.

And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do
same, or
something similar.

This is called desperation.

To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I
absolutely think
people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to
get their
lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables
there
to deal
with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows
what
to do in the
event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re
dosing
anybody who
fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful
equipment
onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.

Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are
over,
better luck
in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have
a
dead body,
and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s
quite
possible you
will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how
good
your
intentions were.

– – – – – – – – –

Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would
have at the
very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for
the
best, and I
wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative
vibe…
This may be
stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single
time
the alarms
went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence
to
support my
feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I
listened,
“hey
Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this
situation/place
‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and
approaching very
rapidly.”

Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all
fucked up and
acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through
withdrawal,
or because there’s something seriously wrong with them…
Getting that
answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.

Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are
desperate,
tend to lie
an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to
lose.

Patrick

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
http://messenger.msn.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 25, 2002 at 12:19:48 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks Rick, much obliged.
I see your point about the liver transplant, and subsequent drugs too.
That said, isn’t it also true that not everyone with Hep C goes on to loose their liver? Or is Hep C usually fatal? Or do we not really know yet? As previously noted, I’ve done quite a bit of reading now on Hep C, but I haven’t really come across figures that lay this out clearly, the numbers of deaths resulting directly from Hep C, or someone’s chances for death >from Hep C, oddly enough.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Here are a couple of options you could check out…

1.   LOTS of medical colleges and hospitals are doing clinical trials
for the pegolated interferon…whichi does have, as you indicate, a much
higher success rate.  Call around.
2.¬† Schering-plough also has a program called “Commitment to care”
which pays for all of the meds, but not diagnostic tests, bloodwork,
etc….I think they may have something on their website.¬† You can sign
up as an individual and have the info. forwarded to your doctor, or have
your doctor sign you up…which my Hep. C resource says is quicker.

…and yeah, you’ll probably feel pretty sick (although I DO have
clients who haven’t experienced ANY weakness or sickness at all…go
figger), but it beats the hell out of a liver transplant, anti-rejection
drugs, and the high risk of developing cancer as a result of taking
those drugs.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

>>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/25/02 10:51AM >>>
>Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other
way round<

Interestingly enough, I was just at my doctor’s last week. She said,
“you’re not actually getting any treatment for Hep C, right”
Nope, I replied. When I got my biopsy a couple or 3 years ago, the
doctors then were like, “hey, you’re ok now, you’re liver is swollen but
not cirrhosis-fied. Still, let’s bombard you with interferon anyway, and
blast that ol’ Hep right out of you.”
Having just done lots of research on interferon at that time, I
said, “no thank you. I like my hair where it is thanks kindly. And I’m
not overly fond of feeling like I have the flu either, or dealing with
massive depression, or any of the other side effects that commonly hit
people taking interferon/ribovirin, with only a 30 percent or so success
rate.”
So I didn’t accept their offer.
At that point, I had medicare, and could have gotten treatment paid
for. Now that I’m making so much money, (LOLOLOL), I can’t afford
medicare. Isn’t that something? Sooo, I can’t afford liver care.
That said, speaking with my doctor last week, (who bless her heart
only charges me the barest minimum for treating me- there’s still
doctors out there in it for the healing, not the cash-surprise,
surprise- she’s also into the idea of medical marijuana and isn’t
bothered in the slightest that I use pot, even knowing my hard-core
junky past, and she hates dealing with HMOs- a very interesting
discussion I had with her) she told me there’s a new treatment out for
Hep C, one that has raised that success rate to nearly 80 percent, if
one fits into a very narrow classification of sick, but not for all Hep
C sufferers apparently. It’s called Pegylated Interferon and Ribovirin.
doesn’t sound much different to Interferon/Ribavirin now, does it? She
said, “once you get insurance, or can afford to get treated, you might
want to think about this one.” LOL, that’s rich, as I’m not rich. I
can’t imagine trying to work all day every day while taking that crap,
nor do I see insurance looming in my near future.
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression;
the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the
constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even
more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that
I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other
way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read
somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it,
that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true
to anyone else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve
left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my
mood lately in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is
resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down,
but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com
wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on
hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email
me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

>
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this
summer. i’ve had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load,
and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do
you think i
> have anything to worry about?
> Poppy
>
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost
me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it
comes to
>> “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
>>
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do
such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the
very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It
was honest and: 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE:
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become
unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing
to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction,
I think that
>> says volumes.
>>
>> On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction
treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would
be one of my
>> nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am,
understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being
smart isn’t
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone
like that.
>>
>> I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for
fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>>
>>
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>>
>>
>>
>> “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May
22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>>
>> | Jon
>> |
>> | Which country are you in?
>>
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a
state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away
from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>>
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full
Blodd Counts)
>> but
>> | as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy
on the state
>> of
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to
Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my
teacher on
>> HCV)
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book
each 2 yrs or
>> so
>>
>> Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory,
into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
>> pretty simple:
>>
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is
not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a
biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard,
simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really
wacked,
>> then you are more or less — probably — okay.
>>
>> This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a
really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome
p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain
percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>>
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is
a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an
active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in
other parts of
>> the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It
should not
>> be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to
be safe …
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine
isn’t being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with
shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>>
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment
where there
>> isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from
dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>>
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>>
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been
published
>> already.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going.
(presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else
is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Now… Here’s the great big grey area…
>>
>> What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.
>>
>> Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very
healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being
shot, OD’ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater
number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with
them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep
right on
>> living.
>>
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with
ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or
was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody
would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone +
roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get
“normal”).
>>
>> All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma,
luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not
old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid
shit I’ve
>> done to myself.
>>
>> However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged,
said, “oh
>> well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible
treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do
not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this
is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit,
it’s not
>> like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>>
>> What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I
would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just
Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results
from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that
their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single
call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not
gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care
what you
>> want or don’t want.
>>
>> And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do
same, or
>> something similar.
>>
>> This is called desperation.
>>
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I
absolutely think
>> people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to
get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there
to deal
>> with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what
to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing
anybody who
>> fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful
equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.
>>
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over,
better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a
dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite
possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good
your
>> intentions were.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would
have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the
best, and I
>> wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe…
This may be
>> stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time
the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to
support my
>> feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened,
“hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this
situation/place
>> ‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and
approaching very
>> rapidly.”
>>
>> Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all
fucked up and
>> acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through
withdrawal,
>> or because there’s something seriously wrong with them…
Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>>
>> Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate,
tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to
lose.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> ———————————
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:45:18 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Prose conjoined with a speech from a dream where I was dreaming I was
having a nightmare. Based on Martin Luther King’s speech and coming out
with a dark twist upon my awakening, then set to paper.

Unpublished, as are most things I write down after having realized
that, for me, the deed is done once the expression is given.  I have no
strong and burning desire for the glorification of self.  If you have
some place you would like to publish it, feel free…just make sure my
name is attached. ¬†Not that I’m concerned with any recognition, as much
as the fact that I despise those who steal something of mine and call it
their own.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk 06/25/02 11:31AM >>>
Dear Rick

Is this a piece of prose?

Have u published it anywhere? Would you like to (if not?)

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
<mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 13 June 2002 21:16
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] I had a dream

..that I was dreaming I was having a nightmare.

For some reason, I woke up a few days ago with Martin Luther King’s
speech running thru the wetware, all sort of dark and twisted.  That
and
a few recent comments about addicts being the last tribe of niggers on
the planet, etc., and I waned a little poetic on my lunch hour today.
For what it’s worth, if you think it sucks, that’s fine…so do I. ¬†On
the other hand, if you enjoy it and think its good, that’s fine…so
do
I.  Somehow my mind can reconcile these two diametrically opposed
statements…probably too little sleep or too much coffee. ¬†If you’re
offended somehow, then someone else must have written it.
____________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________
I Have A Nightmare
(with apologies to Martin)

Five score years ago, as well as yesterday and today, a great
multitude
walked into the shadows of destruction.  Their decisions came like a
wave of tragedy to millions of families burned by the withering flames
of their apparent insanity and their addictions.  They came as a long
nightmare of captivity, putting an end to hope and any further joyous
daybreaks.  Today we must face the tragic fact that drug addicts are
the
last tribe of niggers on the planet, and that these niggers are still
not free.

The addict, the junky, the dope fiend are still sadly crippled by the
lashes of persecution and incarceration.  The addict lives alone on an
island of bondage and condemnation in a vast ocean of people who pay
lip
service to the “bullshit” idea that what he has is some kind of
disease.
The addict languishes away in a cage…a moral exile relegated to a
life of poverty and incarceration in a nation where child-molesting
priests can walk free.  I say to you today, my friends, that because
of
his chains, his poverty, and his suffering, that I have a nightmare.
It
is a nightmare deeply rooted in the death of the American Dream.  A
nightmare where someone who chooses to put an “unapproved” chemical
into
their own body is judged more harshly than a man who has raped a child.

It is a nightmare where all sorts of mindless robots really think
they’re free.

I hold this truth to be self-evident; that all men are NOT created
equal!  Some are, clearly, more equal than others.  I have a nightmare
where mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, all over this great
nation, are sitting chained together, devouring one another at a table
of misery and woe because it is easier and more convenient to simply
close the door, turn aside, and throw away the key.  I have a
nightmare
that this oasis of freedom, prosperity, and justice will be
transformed
into a desert, sweltering with the heat of bondage, poverty, and
oppression.  I have a nightmare that my three children will one day
live
in a formerly great nation that considers it a crime to be ill with a
disease.  I have a nightmare that one day little black boys and little
black girls and little white boys and little white girls will be
executed for taking a hit off the crack-pipe.  I have a nightmare
today.
I have a nightmare that every addict will wake up one day to find
himself in jail, with no possibility of treatment or parole.  I have a
nightmare that rapists and murderers will walk free because learned
men
say they no longer represent a threat to the community.  A nightmare
where another will spend his life behind bars for carrying around a
bag
of weed.

“Free at last?” “Free at last?” ¬†“Thank God, Almighty, we’re free at
last?” ¬†I really don’t think so…if you happen to be an addict,
you’re
just another dumb nigger.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:38:38 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick

U should come to more drug policy reform conferences; there you will meet
most of the best drug treatmenters in the world, and no, I ain’t kidding.
Not that there existence makes me wanna use again; just too busy fighting
the drug war to entertain any silly thoughts like that

Y’ALL: since most of you are in America, just wanna encourage y’all to get
involved in the incredible ‘drug peace’ activism that happens in your
country. As my Tennessee hero, Rev Sanders put it, (once I explained how i
keep ‘popping up’ at American DP Reform conferences) ” Great!We need all the
help we can get..”

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 13 June 2002 22:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream

On [Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 01:43:00PM -0700], [Kerry Dawson] wrote:

| That was great Rick!

It wuz.  Why is it, that now, when I have absolutely no need of any of
you’z, I am starting to come in contact with more and more enlightened
human beings who are involved with drug treatment…? ¬†Where were alla
youz when I coulda used you!

| I just clicked Mindvox and the tag line at the top was another Martin
| Luther King Jr. quote:
|
| “Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.”

It duz.

| I have a copy of the War on Drugs piece Patrick did, the formatting is
|
| Here’s the bootleg ūüėé

That’s IT! ¬†I’m SUING YOU. ¬†You’ve RUINED my ENTIRE LIFE.

Uhm, well, see, it’s not bad. ¬†However, when you scroll down to that
paragraph that is made obsolete by 9.11, it sorta pulls a lotta the energy
out of it.  I need to retool it a little.

In the immortal words of Malcolm X:  Kill Whitey!

No wait, that’s me. ¬†I meant to say, in the immortal words of Thomas
Jefferson, <paraphrasing the Whole Entire Declaration of Independence>:

“All I got’s ta say is: Fuck You Punk. ¬†Read me my rights n’ shit, it’s
all junk. ¬†Fuck tha’ Police (State).”

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] Recall: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:35:31 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt would like to recall the message, “[ibogaine] I
had a dream”.

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:35:21 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Patrick

U should come to more drug policy reform conferences; there you will meet
most of the best drug treatmenters in the world, and no, I ain’t kidding

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 13 June 2002 22:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] I had a dream

On [Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 01:43:00PM -0700], [Kerry Dawson] wrote:

| That was great Rick!

It wuz.  Why is it, that now, when I have absolutely no need of any of
you’z, I am starting to come in contact with more and more enlightened
human beings who are involved with drug treatment…? ¬†Where were alla
youz when I coulda used you!

| I just clicked Mindvox and the tag line at the top was another Martin
| Luther King Jr. quote:
|
| “Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.”

It duz.

| I have a copy of the War on Drugs piece Patrick did, the formatting is
|
| Here’s the bootleg ūüėé

That’s IT! ¬†I’m SUING YOU. ¬†You’ve RUINED my ENTIRE LIFE.

Uhm, well, see, it’s not bad. ¬†However, when you scroll down to that
paragraph that is made obsolete by 9.11, it sorta pulls a lotta the energy
out of it.  I need to retool it a little.

In the immortal words of Malcolm X:  Kill Whitey!

No wait, that’s me. ¬†I meant to say, in the immortal words of Thomas
Jefferson, <paraphrasing the Whole Entire Declaration of Independence>:

“All I got’s ta say is: Fuck You Punk. ¬†Read me my rights n’ shit, it’s
all junk. ¬†Fuck tha’ Police (State).”

Patrick

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:31:18 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Here are a couple of options you could check out…

1.   LOTS of medical colleges and hospitals are doing clinical trials
for the pegolated interferon…whichi does have, as you indicate, a much
higher success rate.  Call around.
2. ¬†Schering-plough also has a program called “Commitment to care”
which pays for all of the meds, but not diagnostic tests, bloodwork,
etc….I think they may have something on their website. ¬†You can sign
up as an individual and have the info. forwarded to your doctor, or have
your doctor sign you up…which my Hep. C resource says is quicker.

…and yeah, you’ll probably feel pretty sick (although I DO have
clients who haven’t experienced ANY weakness or sickness at all…go
figger), but it beats the hell out of a liver transplant, anti-rejection
drugs, and the high risk of developing cancer as a result of taking
those drugs.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/25/02 10:51AM >>>
Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other
way round<

Interestingly enough, I was just at my doctor’s last week. She said,
“you’re not actually getting any treatment for Hep C, right”
Nope, I replied. When I got my biopsy a couple or 3 years ago, the
doctors then were like, “hey, you’re ok now, you’re liver is swollen but
not cirrhosis-fied. Still, let’s bombard you with interferon anyway, and
blast that ol’ Hep right out of you.”
Having just done lots of research on interferon at that time, I
said, “no thank you. I like my hair where it is thanks kindly. And I’m
not overly fond of feeling like I have the flu either, or dealing with
massive depression, or any of the other side effects that commonly hit
people taking interferon/ribovirin, with only a 30 percent or so success
rate.”
So I didn’t accept their offer.
At that point, I had medicare, and could have gotten treatment paid
for. Now that I’m making so much money, (LOLOLOL), I can’t afford
medicare. Isn’t that something? Sooo, I can’t afford liver care.
That said, speaking with my doctor last week, (who bless her heart
only charges me the barest minimum for treating me- there’s still
doctors out there in it for the healing, not the cash-surprise,
surprise- she’s also into the idea of medical marijuana and isn’t
bothered in the slightest that I use pot, even knowing my hard-core
junky past, and she hates dealing with HMOs- a very interesting
discussion I had with her) she told me there’s a new treatment out for
Hep C, one that has raised that success rate to nearly 80 percent, if
one fits into a very narrow classification of sick, but not for all Hep
C sufferers apparently. It’s called Pegylated Interferon and Ribovirin.
doesn’t sound much different to Interferon/Ribavirin now, does it? She
said, “once you get insurance, or can afford to get treated, you might
want to think about this one.” LOL, that’s rich, as I’m not rich. I
can’t imagine trying to work all day every day while taking that crap,
nor do I see insurance looming in my near future.
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression;
the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the
constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even
more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that
I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of
depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal
ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written
about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an
indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other
way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk

—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read
somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it,
that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true
to anyone else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve
left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my
mood lately in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is
resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down,
but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com
wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on
hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email
me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this
summer. i’ve had
hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load,
and my liver
enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do
you think i
have anything to worry about?
Poppy

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)

On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost
me. I
understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it
comes to
“Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.

I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do
such a good
job of spanning the range of objective observations to the
very personal.
Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It
was honest and: 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE:
describes the desperation of people who are trying to become
unaddicted.
When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing
to play
russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction,
I think that
says volumes.

On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction
treatment
personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would
be one of my
nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am,
understands
addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being
smart isn’t
enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone
like that.

I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for
fascinating
reading. Thanks to all of you!

Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May
22, 2002
at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:

| Jon
|
| Which country are you in?

John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a
state of
insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away
from where I
am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.

| You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full
Blodd Counts)
but
| as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy
on the state
of
| ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to
Mat Dolan, who
| wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my
teacher on
HCV)
| cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book
each 2 yrs or
so

Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory,
into the
dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
pretty simple:

Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is
not possible
to accurately and exactly test liver function without a
biopsy. However,
this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard,
simple blood
tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really
wacked,
then you are more or less — probably — okay.

This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a
really good
idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome
p450 2D6])
for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain
percentage
of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.

Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is
a much lower
dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an
active/uncontrolled state,
lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in
other parts of
the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It
should not
be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to
be safe …
the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine
isn’t being
metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with
shit like
Q-T prolongation and torsades.

And if you wind up with these situations in an environment
where there
isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from
dropping dead.
Presto, you gots a dead body.

In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.

None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been
published
already.

– – – – – – – – –

To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going.
(presuming
this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else
is really
wacked the fuck out.)

– – – – – – – – –

Now… Here’s the great big grey area…

What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.

Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very
healthy people
who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being
shot, OD’ing,
or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater
number of
people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with
them, who
really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep
right on
living.

To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with
ibogaine, I lied
about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or
was not
taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody
would even
attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone +
roughly 2
grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get
“normal”).

All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma,
luck,
genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not
old enough to
have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid
shit I’ve
done to myself.

However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged,
said, “oh
well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible
treatment? FUCK
NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do
not give
a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this
is my life,
I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit,
it’s not
like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.

What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I
would have
simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just
Super Fine
Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results
from a doctor
or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that
their phones
are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single
call going into
or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not
gonna stop me,
I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care
what you
want or don’t want.

And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do
same, or
something similar.

This is called desperation.

To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I
absolutely think
people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to
get their
lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there
to deal
with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what
to do in the
event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing
anybody who
fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful
equipment
onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.

Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over,
better luck
in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a
dead body,
and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite
possible you
will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good
your
intentions were.

– – – – – – – – –

Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would
have at the
very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the
best, and I
wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe…
This may be
stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time
the alarms
went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to
support my
feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened,
“hey
Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this
situation/place
‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and
approaching very
rapidly.”

Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all
fucked up and
acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through
withdrawal,
or because there’s something seriously wrong with them…
Getting that
answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.

Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate,
tend to lie
an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to
lose.

Patrick

———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
http://messenger.msn.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] I had a dream
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:31:25 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Dear Rick

Is this a piece of prose?

Have u published it anywhere? Would you like to (if not?)

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Rick Venglarcik [mailto:RickV@hnncsb.org]
Sent: 13 June 2002 21:16
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] I had a dream

..that I was dreaming I was having a nightmare.

For some reason, I woke up a few days ago with Martin Luther King’s
speech running thru the wetware, all sort of dark and twisted.  That and
a few recent comments about addicts being the last tribe of niggers on
the planet, etc., and I waned a little poetic on my lunch hour today.
For what it’s worth, if you think it sucks, that’s fine…so do I. ¬†On
the other hand, if you enjoy it and think its good, that’s fine…so do
I.  Somehow my mind can reconcile these two diametrically opposed
statements…probably too little sleep or too much coffee. ¬†If you’re
offended somehow, then someone else must have written it.
____________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________
I Have A Nightmare
(with apologies to Martin)

Five score years ago, as well as yesterday and today, a great multitude
walked into the shadows of destruction.  Their decisions came like a
wave of tragedy to millions of families burned by the withering flames
of their apparent insanity and their addictions.  They came as a long
nightmare of captivity, putting an end to hope and any further joyous
daybreaks.  Today we must face the tragic fact that drug addicts are the
last tribe of niggers on the planet, and that these niggers are still
not free.

The addict, the junky, the dope fiend are still sadly crippled by the
lashes of persecution and incarceration.  The addict lives alone on an
island of bondage and condemnation in a vast ocean of people who pay lip
service to the “bullshit” idea that what he has is some kind of disease.
The addict languishes away in a cage…a moral exile relegated to a
life of poverty and incarceration in a nation where child-molesting
priests can walk free.  I say to you today, my friends, that because of
his chains, his poverty, and his suffering, that I have a nightmare.  It
is a nightmare deeply rooted in the death of the American Dream.  A
nightmare where someone who chooses to put an “unapproved” chemical into
their own body is judged more harshly than a man who has raped a child.
It is a nightmare where all sorts of mindless robots really think
they’re free.

I hold this truth to be self-evident; that all men are NOT created
equal!  Some are, clearly, more equal than others.  I have a nightmare
where mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, all over this great
nation, are sitting chained together, devouring one another at a table
of misery and woe because it is easier and more convenient to simply
close the door, turn aside, and throw away the key.  I have a nightmare
that this oasis of freedom, prosperity, and justice will be transformed
into a desert, sweltering with the heat of bondage, poverty, and
oppression.  I have a nightmare that my three children will one day live
in a formerly great nation that considers it a crime to be ill with a
disease.  I have a nightmare that one day little black boys and little
black girls and little white boys and little white girls will be
executed for taking a hit off the crack-pipe.  I have a nightmare today.
I have a nightmare that every addict will wake up one day to find
himself in jail, with no possibility of treatment or parole.  I have a
nightmare that rapists and murderers will walk free because learned men
say they no longer represent a threat to the community.  A nightmare
where another will spend his life behind bars for carrying around a bag
of weed.

“Free at last?” “Free at last?” ¬†“Thank God, Almighty, we’re free at
last?” ¬†I really don’t think so…if you happen to be an addict, you’re
just another dumb nigger.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Thinking out loud
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:25:24 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

PK

Carrie’s 2 goals were/are?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa [mailto:digital@phantom.com]
Sent: 13 June 2002 18:25
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Thinking out loud

On [Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 09:37:36PM -0700], [Bill Ross] wrote:

| > [entheogens/pshchedelics] don’t make you anything except a
| > babbling idiot unless you are somehow different to
| > begin with and then after all that, do some insane
| > amount of work. Because I have all this inside which
| > seems so beautiful and I look at what Patrick writes
| > or people have done and it so obviously comes from
| > that place, but when I try to do it, I can’t! ;-(
| >
| > It’s like the part of my brain that experiences all
| > that will not connect to the part of my brain which is
| > trying to write it. It just won’t do it. Why????
|
| It seems to take work. Work on who you are, which is the
| hardest thing, and work on how you express it, meaning
| lots of writing or painting or whatever – over time.
| Some are forced to do the work just to survive. If
| you aren’t forced, you have the luxury of developing
| at your own pace.

This was an interesting comment… ¬†Why do *I* do anythin’ … well, ‘cuz
I can’t stop! ¬†That’s being glib, but 95-99% of everything I have ever
done, which borders on the exceptional, happens during my manic phases.
And it has absolutely nothing to do with making a choice to sit down and
work on <whatever>. ¬†It’s a lot more like being possessed … so just,
like, ride the lightning, because it’s not like you have a choice anyway.

[Fucking ALRIGHT goddamnit, but I mean, couldn’t you just DO this shit for
me? ¬†I can only take dictation so fast. ¬†If you’re all that, just make it
materialize okay…? ¬†I’m very tired.]

I think it’s possible that you’re mixing, blending, fusing together an
entire series of thoughts and feelings which have collided together for
you upon coming down.  And realizing that perhaps you are not in the exact
space/place that you’d like to be, want to be, or have been told you
should be…

Doing entheogens with the concept or intent, “okay, this is gonna turn me
into <an artist>, <a Nobel prize winner>, <a genius>” ain’t gonna work.
They can and do pull back the magical curtain, and strip away the
illusions, which are your perceived limitations, and your seperation and
distance from what simply IS.

Spirituality seems to be breaking down those barriers, to allow what is,
to resonate within you.  Because there is no seperation, you are THAT, it
is you.

Art is taking the radiance/energy of those other spaces, and channeling
them outwards through the imperfection of being a human being.  If you do
it well, other people connect to SOME aspect of it, which happens because
you have managed to resonate with something that is already within them.
They agree with you, because you are holding up pieces of themselves, and
in some cases allowing them to access <that other space> through art.

You’re articulating what they already know to be true. ¬†A lot of the time
anyway, it doesn’t always work this way, because, nothing is ever
consistent.

You don’t need any exogenous molecules to arrive at that destination. ¬†But
they sure do accelerate the journey by a few years, decades, lifetimes…

I think — and I mean, I could be completely wrong, because I don’t really
know you — you did entheogens with the intent of gaining some sort of
insights, and/or having a good time, enterting that larger space… ¬†From
what you’re said you had a positive experience, then came back down,
attempted to write it out, and became frustrated because you couldn’t do
so, at whatever level you think you should…

Those are two very different goals… ¬†I’m just trying to articulate that,
but my brain isn’t quite turning over yet, need to add 1/2 gallon more of
coffee.

Patrick

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Thinking out loud
Date: June 25, 2002 at 11:12:12 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carrie wrote:
They don’t make you anything except a
babbling idiot unless you are somehow different to
begin with and then after all that, do some insane
amount of work.

Hi Carrie, i guess this maybe unexpected but I was taken by a particular
part of your ramble (above)”unless you are different to begin with”

Much is written and debated about whether drugs make you behave in a certain
manner; certainly some speed you up, others slow u down, some make you see
nice colours and heaving objects etc etc. When we argue for the decrim of
drugs, we point out research that shows that those who murdered (or did some
other awful thing) under the influence of drugs were already predisposed to
such behaviour, untreated and thus ‘vulnerable.’ And this relates to what
you say inasmuch as I suspect that Gamma (aka Chris) and others were already
artistically + inclined B4 drugs.

One more (slightly irrelevant thing) your e-mail immediately reminded me of
my Ibogaine experience; perhaps the 4th hour in, I decided that my thoughts
were so profound(!) i wanted to write them… mmh, not so fast. I think it
took me 20 mins to pick up a pen, and another 4 to get the paper to a
position where i might be able to write on it. I think I managed 5 words,
(which took another 30 minutes,) and then I gave up!  Ceding to the fact
that the first 7 or so hrs of Iboga make u incapable of much/any physical
movement; I should have listened to my previous guides in the first place!
Would have saved me from the disappointment of not being able to write my
thoughts down

Hope whatever entheogen it was has brightened up your life

Affection

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

This is a ramble I know, but some of you ramble a lot!
Not that I don’t enjoy reading it, I do, but the
really terrible thing I am realizing is. It’s not the
drugs and I don’t mean heroin or crack I mean
entheogens. Because I have all this inside which
seems so beautiful and I look at what Patrick writes
or people have done and it so obviously comes from
that place, but when I try to do it, I can’t! ;-(

It’s like the part of my brain that experiences all
that will not connect to the part of my brain which is
trying to write it. It just won’t do it. Why????

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 25, 2002 at 10:51:26 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other way round<

Interestingly enough, I was just at my doctor’s last week. She said, “you’re not actually getting any treatment for Hep C, right”
Nope, I replied. When I got my biopsy a couple or 3 years ago, the doctors then were like, “hey, you’re ok now, you’re liver is swollen but not cirrhosis-fied. Still, let’s bombard you with interferon anyway, and blast¬†that ol’ Hep right¬†out of you.”
Having just done lots of research on interferon at that time, I said, “no thank you. I like my hair where it is thanks kindly. And I’m not overly fond of feeling like I have the flu either, or dealing with massive depression, or any of the other side effects that commonly hit people taking interferon/ribovirin, with only a 30 percent or so success rate.”
So I didn’t accept their offer.
At that point, I had medicare, and could have gotten treatment paid for. Now that I’m making so much money, (LOLOLOL), I can’t afford medicare. Isn’t that something? Sooo, I can’t afford liver care.
That said, speaking with my doctor last week, (who bless her heart only charges me the barest minimum for treating me- there’s still doctors out there in it for the healing, not the cash-surprise, surprise- she’s also into the idea of medical marijuana and isn’t bothered in the slightest that I use pot, even knowing my hard-core¬†junky past, and she hates dealing with HMOs- a very interesting discussion I had with her) she told me there’s a new treatment out for Hep C, one that has raised that success rate to nearly 80 percent, if one fits into a very narrow classification of sick, but not for all Hep C sufferers apparently. It’s called Pegylated Interferon and Ribovirin. doesn’t sound much different to Interferon/Ribavirin now, does it? She said, “once you get insurance, or can afford to get treated, you might want to think about this one.” LOL, that’s rich, as I’m not rich. I can’t imagine trying to work all day every day while taking that crap, nor do I see insurance looming in my near future.
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression; the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it, that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true to anyone¬†else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my mood lately¬†in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down, but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

>
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this summer. i’ve had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load, and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do you think i
> have anything to worry about?
> Poppy
>
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to
>> “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
>>
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that
>> says volumes.
>>
>> On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my
>> nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn’t
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.
>>
>> I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>>
>>
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>>
>>
>>
>> “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May 22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>>
>> | Jon
>> |
>> | Which country are you in?
>>
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>>
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts)
>> but
>> | as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state
>> of
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on
>> HCV)
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or
>> so
>>
>> Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
>> pretty simple:
>>
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
>> then you are more or less — probably — okay.
>>
>> This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>>
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
>> the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It should not
>> be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>>
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
>> isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>>
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>>
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
>> already.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Now… Here’s the great big grey area…
>>
>> What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.
>>
>> Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
>> living.
>>
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).
>>
>> All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
>> done to myself.
>>
>> However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
>> well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
>> like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>>
>> What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
>> want or don’t want.
>>
>> And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
>> something similar.
>>
>> This is called desperation.
>>
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
>> people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
>> with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
>> fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.
>>
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
>> intentions were.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
>> wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe… This may be
>> stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
>> feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
>> ‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
>> rapidly.”
>>
>> Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all fucked up and
>> acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
>> or because there’s something seriously wrong with them… Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>>
>> Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate, tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> ———————————
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] straight inc.
Date: June 25, 2002 at 10:39:22 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Carrie

I’ve mailed Synanon site as I was a t Phoenix House, eons ago; as far as I’m
aware, Phoenix is/was a Synanon program; let’s see if they let me in! Be
interesting if they do; keep u posted

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Carla Barnes [mailto:carlambarnes@yahoo.com]
Sent: 11 June 2002 23:28
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] straight inc.

I don’t know what my reaction to all this is. I mean
it’s sick but what they do, not taken to that kind of
extreme is what happens to almost everyone who is
being ‘treated’ somewhere for drug addiction.

From the people who are hardcore 12 step freaks with
their do it this way or you will die, to counselers,
to lots of situations.

I have sooooooo many friends who are taken advantage
of because they have drug problems and are in
treatment because of legal situations. These are not
rich kids like some of the ibogaine people are, they
are regularily asked to volunteer their time for free
or below minimum wage to do work for some 12 step
group or another.

I don’t remember where he wrote it, but that was
something Patrick wrote I think last year which I
thought was really hard but it’s true. And I’m sorry
if I’m about to mangle it up Patrick ūüôā “drug addicts
are the last tribe of niggers on the planet, a entire
group of people it’s ok to hate, take advantage of,
throw in jail, treat with disrespect, because you are
guilty of the crime of altering your state of
consciousness against the government’s wishes”. Where
is that? I know I didn’t quote it right, where’d that
one go, it was a excellllllent drug war piece. But I
can’t find it anywhere!

With the synanon site how do I get into it? It asks
for a password. What happened with that place, I
remember stories but from when I was 10 or 11, it’s
always been closed as far back as I remember.

Carla B

— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Here’s a look at last year’s event, the first one,
for those interested.
Peace,
Preston

http://www.hightimes.com/News/2001_08/DRUGTRET.html
DRUG TREATMENT FOR TEENS: A SECRET SHAME
FILED 08/01/2001

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] 10 questions
Date: June 25, 2002 at 10:35:55 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Another problem with data indicating ‘success’ cases with Ibogaine is that
many people who are acting as guides are not always following up on people
they may have assisted in coming off. Most of the time, this is not their
fault, as there is no way of ensuring, someone does contact you after they
have stayed off for a while; only thing a guide can do is ask ‘treatmentees’
to do so. But my guess is, you would only recontact your guide for another
treatment; otherwise folk tend to just wanna get on with their lives..

And this is yet another reason why the ‘establishment’ needs to take Iboga
more seriously; this way follow ups treatmentersm and ‘success’ cases may be
easier to monitor.

Also, none of this means, success isn’t happening; it may just be, as with
many addicts who come off, they don’t then become like some of us on this
list, and wanna share it with the world!! How boring of them… apparently,
there are more addicts coming off, and staying off drugs OUTSIDE of
treatment situations than INSIDE. Wild hah; says a lot about most treatment
protocols right?

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 11 June 2002 14:47
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 10 questions

In a message dated 6/11/02 6:16:08 AM, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:

10a. Where can I find some statistics on how effective ibo is in
treating addiction?

Rick,

Short term efficacy as it applies to the elimination of narcotic withdrawal
can be found at

www.ibogaine.org/alperetal.html

The problem with tracking long term effects with ibogaine is that in many
cases ibogaine becomes more effective with multiple doses over time and the
drug is not generally available to most patients in such a manner to provide

optimum benefit.

An important question might be what makes ibogaine different from other
treatment modalities and I think an answer, that it returns hope to the
patient and allows them to overcome their addiction immediately…that is to

completely go beyond their addiction and experience not being addicted or
chemically dependent.  This is something that no other treatment modality
can
do on a regular basis.  Re-experiencing non-addiction is an important part
of
the learning process to relearn what it is to not be addicted. ¬†If you don’t

know what it is it is far more difficult to accomplish or may take years, if

ever, while ibogaine provides this effect in my conservative estimate of
better than 80 percent of all patients immediately after treatment.  How
long
it lasts is another question and a more difficult question as it is tied to
abstinence.  And in my opinion abstinence as a goal held to high esteem gets

in the way of healing the patient as the patient becomes too self critical
in
accomplishing that goal.  That self criticism effects self esteem and may
often cause a patient to return to dependence and addiction.  Here is where
multiple treatments with ibogaine have their value in accord with the
societal and personal benefits displayed by each patient individually.  In
other words, who you are and what you bring to the table is always important

in benefiting from any therapeutic system.  It is important to remember that

the majority of chemically dependent individuals who have been treated with
i
bogaine as well as, other therapeutic modalities overwhelming choose
ibogaine
as the most effective treatment because it gives them an immediate sense of
accomplishment and hope.  Nothing else does this as a specific effect.

Oh well, so much for the data that has not yet been reported.  The National
Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) that could have accomplished these studies
chose not to but, rather to abandon ibogaine clinical development at the
prompting of the pharmaceutical industry…an industry that has systemically

failed to involved itself in the development of medications to treat
chemical
dependence.

Possibly, Patrick can direct you to the data you seek.

Howard

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 25, 2002 at 10:07:49 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Guess the top part is for Michael.

— Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com> wrote:

What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a
different place mentally, where you accept all this
and even enjoy being in different realities.

That is the fun of life, everyone gets their own
experiences, their own perspective, their own values,
own ideas…

I think
you crossed the boundary from solving your drug
problems to religious experience and kept on going.

I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only
want to detox.

Then just detox. As they say “take what you need and
leave the rest”… I do have to say though that often
people taking ibo have experiences that can only be
described as from another world.

From all I have read and I have done
my best to understand the material online, none of
you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of

Don’t mean to yell but NO ONE KNOWS WHY IBOGAINE
works. As Patrick pointed out many drugs (pick up a
PDR sometime) have no known reason they work (some
ideas maybe) – try this one, welbutrin, real common
stuff, no one knows why it works though they may know
some of the chemistry that is going on.

you accept all these different realities as fact.
Most of you are not troubled by the fact that
ibogaine can kill you ”

So can anything (kill you). Water, oxygen… can and
does in fact kill, can be toxic – oh, and so can being
an active drug addict… I like my chances with ibo a
lot better. My point is ibogaine is pretty safe stuff
if protocol is followed, unless of course you can site
a single death where protocol was followed and the
person still died? Of the 3 (4 if you count the blood
clot from a pre-existing condition a month after the
ibo treatment) deaths I know of were, a hep C patient
in pretty sad physical shape, an OD from heroin taken
while on ibo (bad idea) who had a lot of ibo and a
patient with coronary blockage, I think some MDMA was
also “missing in action” in that case…

You can in fact die from anything OTC or prescribed if
taken improperly and just like not taking sugar if you
are a diabetic, each drug has its contraindications
and adverse reactions as well as some have abuse
potential (know how many people distroyed their liver
mixing tylenol containing products with alcohol or
taking too many??? – very many thousands). In fact
1/3rd of all liver failure is linked to tylenol.

Sorry but to be blunt, your reasoning sounds like a
good way to avoid getting clean – there is always a
good “reason”, the old “I can’t because” and “what if
this, what if that, then what am I gonna do”. If ibo
is not for you, fine, do something else but you are in
fact pointing a finger at US, saying something we are
doing is wrong, meanwhile you are getting high and I
at least am not.

Dear Michael, I can only speak for myself.  I was
not a heroin addict when I took ibogaine, but I did
want it to end my addictions.  I accepted that some
kind of death would inevitably be involved, because
that’s what change is in this universe. ¬†It’s not an
“other” reality where this happens; it’s this one.
Because all of the universe declares loudly that
death is necessary for new life to manifest.  One
way to look at it (for me, at least) is that what is
born is reabsorbed then born again.  That is perhaps
a more nurturing image than that “all must die.”
You seem to be saying that what you want is to hold
onto everything the way it is, except the addiction.
boy, i do really sympathise with that wish!  You
are already kind of making it true by separating
yourself from the addiction.  (It must die, not me).
But I think you should just “boldly go”; the “you ”
you are hoping to maintain may not be all that
viable without the addiction, anyway (who can know
without trying?), and the “new you” you seem to fear
may not turn out to be such a stranger after all.
Love, jane

———————————
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Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

__________________________________________________
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http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
Date: June 25, 2002 at 10:04:06 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Preston, I know this is 20 days later but I wanted to respond before

ANY chronic illness is goi9ng to make us vulnerable to depression; the thing that’s particular to HCV (as if you need to be told) is the constant struggle foir energy that comes with it, and this makes us even more prone to depression. (well, it certainly does me anyway, not that I’m sure it’s the HCV that’s wacking my energy out!)

Also, if you are put on Interferon/Ribavirin, there is a risk of depression as a side effect, and potentially even suicide/suicidal ideation – well, that’s what docs and others have seen and written about. I’m no0t sure that if u do suffer from depression, it’s an indicator that the HCV has really set in, tend to think it’s the other way round

C ya

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 04 June 2002 17:00
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on the issue of Hep C- Does it really cause depression? I’ve read somewhere that this is a serious warning sign, when depression sets it, that this is a sign that something is going on with Hep C. Is this true to anyone¬†else’s knowledge? Hep C is one of those repercussions I’ve left myself from years of self abuse, and I’m afraid it is affecting my mood lately¬†in ways I can’t seem to deal well with, if it really is resulting from the Hep C.
Anyway ideas anyone? (sorry Patrick, don’t mean to let you down, but I’m trying to cheer up…)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hattie
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c

on 5/28/02 1:43 PM, Christina Kester at poppy_1974@hotmail.com wrote:

Are you new to the list? If so there were loads of postings on hep c and
ibogaine a few weeks back. If you have not seen them then email me and I
will give you all the info.

Hattie

>
> I am planning on detoxing fro methadone using ibogaine this summer. i’ve had
> hep c for less than two years, have no detcteable viral load, and my liver
> enzymes have remained in the normal range for the past year. Do you think i
> have anything to worry about?
> Poppy
>
>> From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: ibogaine and hep c
>> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>
>> On the technical side of this conversation I admit you’ve lost me. I
>> understand liver function and Hep C but am clueless when it comes to
>> “Cytochrome P450” and what any of that means.
>>
>> I enjoy reading your articles about addiction because you do such a good
>> job of spanning the range of objective observations to the very personal.
>> Which I thought was very important in what you expressed. It was honest and
>> describes the desperation of people who are trying to become unaddicted.
>> When someone doesn’t care if they live or die and are willing to play
>> russian roulette at even the chance to escape their addiction, I think that
>> says volumes.
>>
>> On that note I’d like to wish condolences to any addiction treatment
>> personnel or doctors who have ever dealt with you, that would be one of my
>> nightmares. Here’s a guy who is much smarter then I am, understands
>> addiction but is sitting in the room with me because being smart isn’t
>> enough to get out of his addiction. How do I reach someone like that.
>>
>> I still don’t have that answer but all of this makes for fascinating
>> reading. Thanks to all of you!
>>
>>
>> Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC
>>
>>
>>
>> “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote: On [Wed, May 22, 2002
>> at 02:13:25PM +0100], [Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt] wrote:
>>
>> | Jon
>> |
>> | Which country are you in?
>>
>> John is Dr. Pablo, he lives in the country of the mind, in a state of
>> insanity. Which is to say, most of the time, 20 yards away from where I
>> am. Or Miami even, to put it another way.
>>
>> | You may be referring to Liver Function Test and FBC (Full Blodd Counts)
>> but
>> | as far as I’m aware these will not give you the full mckoy on the state
>> of
>> | ones liver. Hattie, don’t get confused. Send an e-mail to Mat Dolan, who
>> | wrote the HCV Handbook (my potty buddy and he really is my teacher on
>> HCV)
>> | cos he has to be updated as a result of re-writing his book each 2 yrs or
>> so
>>
>> Look… Alla youz can beat nomenclature, details, and theory, into the
>> dust, then sift through it sideways searching for . But it’s
>> pretty simple:
>>
>> Yes, to the best of my knowledge at this point in time, it is not possible
>> to accurately and exactly test liver function without a biopsy. However,
>> this is going off on a tangent. If you run the standard, simple blood
>> tests which include a liver panel, and nothing comes up really wacked,
>> then you are more or less — probably — okay.
>>
>> This isn’t the be all, end all, of testing, because it’s a really good
>> idea to test for the prescence of a gene (CYP2D6 [Cytochrome p450 2D6])
>> for the protein which metabolizes ibogaine. There is a certain percentage
>> of the population which does NOT have the wildtype gene.
>>
>> Ibogaine can be metabolized without it, usually the answer is a much lower
>> dose. However. If someone has Hep C — in an active/uncontrolled state,
>> lacks this gene (how you would go about testing for it in other parts of
>> the world, I do not know… I just know what happens here. It should not
>> be impossible.), you dose ’em with a “low” dose of ibogaine to be safe …
>> the end result can still be a dead body, because the ibogaine isn’t being
>> metabolized/metabolized fast enough, and then you wind up with shit like
>> Q-T prolongation and torsades.
>>
>> And if you wind up with these situations in an environment where there
>> isn’t anyone present that knows how to prevent them from dropping dead.
>> Presto, you gots a dead body.
>>
>> In short, lots of super-bad THINGS can happen.
>>
>> None of these are Great Secrets. All this shit has been published
>> already.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> To summarize: You need roughly half your liver still going. (presuming
>> this is the problem, and your heart is “okay” and nothing else is really
>> wacked the fuck out.)
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Now… Here’s the great big grey area…
>>
>> What’s “good enough” … and how do you define that.
>>
>> Medicine isn’t very exact, there are an awful lot of very healthy people
>> who drop dead for all sorts of reasons — other than being shot, OD’ing,
>> or getting hit by a truck — and there are an equal or greater number of
>> people who have a Fucking Towering Mountain of shit wrong with them, who
>> really should have dropped dead decades ago, and they keep right on
>> living.
>>
>> To drop into the subjective: when I wanted to dose with ibogaine, I lied
>> about every fucking thing imaginable, regarding what I was or was not
>> taking, and the doses I was on, because I was afraid nobody would even
>> attempt to detox me from all that shit (200mg methadone + roughly 2
>> grams of heroin + 12mg xanax, on an average day, to just get “normal”).
>>
>> All my tests are within “normal” ranges, whether due to karma, luck,
>> genetics, or simply because I’m still indestructible and not old enough to
>> have suffered direct physical consequences from all the stupid shit I’ve
>> done to myself.
>>
>> However… Were my tests NOT normal. Would I have shrugged, said, “oh
>> well, I can’t do this,” and moved on to another possible treatment? FUCK
>> NO. Tried ’em all, none worked, this is what I WANT/NEED. I do not give
>> a fuck what your inclusion/exclusion criteria is, for me this is my life,
>> I am on a kamikaze run, and if it kills me, who gives a shit, it’s not
>> like I’m living now anyway; just my time to go. Oh well.
>>
>> What I’m saying is; if my tests were in any way abnormal, I would have
>> simply engaged in some creative art, printed up some Just Super Fine
>> Perfect results, and if you wanted to receive those results from a doctor
>> or a lab; well hey, no problem, I will access the switch that their phones
>> are on, and for that entire afternoon or day, every single call going into
>> or out of those offices, will go to ME instead. You’re not gonna stop me,
>> I may be crazy, but I’m not stupid, I need this, I don’t care what you
>> want or don’t want.
>>
>> And, I’d posit there are a whole lot of people who would do same, or
>> something similar.
>>
>> This is called desperation.
>>
>> To conclude this rambling in some cohesive manner: I absolutely think
>> people who are in the “grey area” should have the chance to get their
>> lives back. However, there are a whole lot of variables there to deal
>> with… I would strongly suggest that SOMEONE who knows what to do in the
>> event of a medical emergency, is present, when you’re dosing anybody who
>> fits this criteria… If they had a few pieces of useful equipment
>> onhand, this really wouldn’t hurt either.
>>
>> Because if they drop dead, oh well, their problems are over, better luck
>> in your next life. But yours have just begun. You now have a dead body,
>> and depending on what part of the world you’re in, it’s quite possible you
>> will face murder or manslaughter charges — no matter how good your
>> intentions were.
>>
>> – – – – – – – – –
>>
>> Having said all that, what would I personally do… I would have at the
>> very least a basic emergency kit onhand. I would hope for the best, and I
>> wouldn’t touch anybody who gave me a really negative vibe… This may be
>> stupid, but I’m not dead, or in prison, and every single time the alarms
>> went off in my head really loud, despite no other evidence to support my
>> feelings… I have been extremely fucking grateful I listened, “hey
>> Patrick, it is TIME to bail, and get the fuck out of this situation/place
>> ‘cuz something really bad is right on the horizon, and approaching very
>> rapidly.”
>>
>> Beyond that, it’s very hard to say… Is this person all fucked up and
>> acting weird because they’re smoking crack, going through withdrawal,
>> or because there’s something seriously wrong with them… Getting that
>> answer without medical testing borders on the impossible.
>>
>> Because, as I may have mentioned… People who are desperate, tend to lie
>> an awful lot. Especially when they have very little left to lose.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> ———————————
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> LAUNCH – Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
>

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 25, 2002 at 7:16:50 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Very good observation.  Death is exactly what the new life springs from.
“…lest a seed fall to the ground and die…”

I clearly recall the futility and madness of my destructive behavior
back in 1988.  I felt completely unable to stop.  I realize now that it
wasn’t really a powerlessness…I was using my power to hold on to what
I thought was life, and was unable to release those things I thought
were important. ¬†August 30-31 were two days of strange premonition…I
was completely absorbed by the feeling that I was about to die.  I
couldn’t shake the feeling and talked about it with a number of
drug-buddies at the time.  They all thought I was just too high and
freaking out.  On Sept. 1st, not looking for any kind of salvation,
religious experience, and just minding my own business, I stumbled into
a situation and “got saved,” in a very powerful spiritual experience.
Afterward, I clearly understood that the old me had died.  An hour or so
later I drove back to my apartment, walked in the door, and one of my
using friends, Joe, was there hanging out.  I started to explain what
happened…”Man…you’re not even gonna believe what happened…” ¬†He
looked at me and said, “You got God or something, didn’t you? I can see
it all over you.” ¬†Then he just stood up and said, “That’s cool
man…Hey, I know what I gotta do…you don’t mind if I take all your
drugs with me do you?” ¬†Five minutes later he was walking out the door
with a good-sized stash and he wished me luck, knowing that we wouldn’t
be hanging out anymore.  I had known him since I was 4 years old, but it
was strangely easy.  The rest of my friends were pretty easy as well; I
somehow had been given the power to see that what I had been embracing
wasn’t really life at all…so I embraced my death, and the new life
that had sprung up, and I’ve been “clean” ever since. ¬†Just my two cents
on death.

Once in a while I still talk to Joe on the phone…he’s still in active
addiction.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

jellking@yahoo.com 06/25/02 03:52AM >>>

What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a different place mentally,
where you accept all this and even enjoy being in different realities. I
think you crossed the boundary from solving your drug problems to
religious experience and kept on going.

I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only want to detox. From
all I have read and I have done my best to understand the material
online, none of you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of you
accept all these different realities as fact. Most of you are not
troubled by the fact that ibogaine can kill you ”

Dear Michael, I can only speak for myself.  I was not a heroin addict
when I took ibogaine, but I did want it to end my addictions.  I
accepted that some kind of death would inevitably be involved, because
that’s what change is in this universe. ¬†It’s not an “other” reality
where this happens; it’s this one. ¬†Because all of the universe declares
loudly that death is necessary for new life to manifest.  One way to
look at it (for me, at least) is that what is born is reabsorbed then
born again. ¬†That is perhaps a more nurturing image than that “all must
die.” ¬†You seem to be saying that what you want is to hold onto
everything the way it is, except the addiction.  boy, i do really
sympathise with that wish!  You are already kind of making it true by
separating yourself from the addiction.  (It must die, not me).  But I
think you should just “boldly go”; the “you ” you are hoping to maintain
may not be all that viable without the addiction, anyway (who can know
without trying?), and the “new you” you seem to fear may not turn out to
be such a stranger after all.  Love, jane

———————————
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From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 25, 2002 at 3:52:36 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com


What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a different place mentally, where you accept all this and even enjoy being in different realities. I think you crossed the boundary from solving your drug problems to religious experience and kept on going.
I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only want to detox. From all I have read and I have done my best to understand the material online, none of you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of you accept all these different realities as fact. Most of you are not troubled by the fact that ibogaine can kill you ”
Dear Michael, I can only speak for myself.¬† I was not a heroin addict when I took ibogaine, but I did want it to end my addictions.¬† I accepted that some kind of death would inevitably be involved, because that’s what change is in this universe.¬† It’s not an “other” reality where this happens; it’s this one.¬† Because all of the universe declares loudly that death is necessary for new life to manifest.¬† One way to look at it (for me, at least) is that what is born is reabsorbed then born again.¬† That is perhaps a more nurturing image than that “all must die.”¬† You seem to be saying that what you want is to hold onto everything the way it is, except the addiction.¬† boy, i do really sympathise with that wish!¬† You are already kind of making it true by separating yourself from the¬†addiction.¬† (It must¬†die, not me).¬† But I¬†think you should just¬†“boldly go”; the “you ” you are hoping to maintain may not be all that viable without the addiction, anyway (who can know without trying?), and the “new you” you seem to fear may not turn out to be such a stranger after all.¬† Love, jane
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From: “Vanessa Cleary” <vcleary@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] equal protection under the law- a creative exercise for adult eyes
Date: June 24, 2002 at 8:45:44 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “cia-drugs” <cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com>, “CRRH” <restore@crrh.org>, <FreedomNewsNet@aol.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

HI all,
Sitting here with most of my current assignments finished and finally turned in, I decided to write out an idea, a parable if you will, that popped into my head nearly whole this afternoon, which you can read at the following link. I hope that you will pass it on to whomever you feel may find it entertaining, or educational.
Peace,
Preston Peet
editor http://www.drugwar.com
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com

Equal Protection Under the Law- a modern day parable
http://www.drugwar.com/pequalprotection.shtm
by Preston Peet
June 24, 2002
Thomas sits on the hard wood bench surrounded by piles of steaming, stinking shit in Tompkins Square at 10th and Ave. A. It’s impossible to tell if it’s human or other, but it sure as hell doesn’t slow him down.
Middle of the hot summer afternoon in NYC, it has taken Thomas hours to scam up enough money to score both coke and dope. His morning third of a bag wakeup shot has long worn off, leaving him feeling drained and sore, ready to throw up on his shoes if he doesn’t get another shot into himself quickly. The afternoon inline skating hockey game hasn’t begun, and there’s no annoying groups of kids playing baseball, so there shouldn’t be any trouble.
He whips out his accoutrements and quickly mixes up a big fat 40 mil shot, stirring in a bag of each drug, sucking up the greasy yellow liquid into his rig. It takes just seconds for him to deftly register the vein he’s been hitting the last few days now, on the right side of his left wrist. It’s a perfect vein that he doesn’t even have to tie off to hit, making it easy to bang no matter his locale, unlike his preferred spot in the elbow.
snip-
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: [ibogaine] mind/brain
Date: June 24, 2002 at 3:08:15 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Here’s a post from another list (usually very inactive) that
may interest some here. It has to do with modeling of consciousness.

Bill Ross

From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] New Kid in Town
Date: June 24, 2002 at 1:38:53 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

hello,

I’m traveling at the moment so quiet on the list for the most part, although I
am happy to report in my travels I sat in on a sucessful treatment and planet
earth has a brand spanking new sparkling initiate. I will encourage this person
to join the list and share their experience when they are ready.

As guide I also had an interesting experience and will elaborate sometime in
the near future.

-Gamma

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 24, 2002 at 1:29:29 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Michael

As I was preparing to take it some time ago, I learned that essentially what Iboga does is reset your serotonin levels; that is, I assume, to a higher level than before the treatment, in order for you to cope better after; -u know more feel good chemicals swimming around the bloodstream.

I am not a pharmacologist; even if I was, I’m not sure that I’d go into the chemical detail on this list; for most of us on th9is list, I think the thinkg to know is that it does work, it’s got its drawbacks, (possibly fewer) than most other ‘addiction’ treatments and that you may get deeply reflective for a while, and even see some lovely colours (for a short while) duriong the experience.

Are you thinking about using Iboga to detox someone?

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Michael Synergy [mailto:synergy9_11@yahoo.com]
Sent: 23 June 2002 10:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s

I enjoy reading this list if for not other reason then it’s much less depressing then any other addiction oriented list I’ve ever read before.
I also do my best to look up answers to questions I may have and try not to post every thought that crosses my mind here without first doing some homework.
The following questions which I hope someone can answer are not explained in any way that I can either find or understand on any of the ibogaine sites. Not org, net, co.uk and if there is some other source of ibogaine info I am missing please tell me, because those three are about it each in their own way.
Someone mentioned that doing MDMA after ibogaine was a dangerous idea. Why is that? And how soon after is after. A week a month, 6 months?
The much larger question I have I don’t think has an answer. That question is based in part on reading the entheogen review article which was reprinted here.
Do any of you know how ibogaine really works? Does anyone? Because the impression I’m getting from reading all the material I could find on those three sites as well as doing a search through Patrick’s writing for Heroin Times does nothing but bring up theories all of which have been disproved over time or aren’t complete.
It looks like nobody is exactly sure how ibogaine works despite real scientists working with it for a decade or more now.
I know that this could be applied to most hallucinogens and yes I know ibogaine isn’t technically a hallucinogenic drug.
The key difference looks to be that whatever any hallucinogenic drug might do to your perceptions, it will not get rid of your addictions. Ibogaine gets rid of all of them all at once. That’s a little spooky. What sounds even more spooky is that review saying that ibogaine re writes genetic expression. Re writes it to what? What exactly is it doing to the brain to re arrange everything in one dose?
It would worry me more if it wasn’t for the fact that most of you who have done it look like you’re not in wheelchairs or walking around with brain damage and whatever might be said about using the term ‘crazy’ saying different or not normal is a better description.
Is there a reasonable expection that somebody is going to figure it out in the next 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Because as far as I know, even now they still haven’t done so with LSD.
This is a exact quote from Patrick and I understand it’s a joke but it doesn’t look like it’s that funny or far from truth.

‘Seems like a good theory, theories are important. Like fer instance without theories you couldn’t hold Ibogaine conferences and go up on stage and point at little charts and graphs, and write monographs and things. Saying, “it seems to interact with 90% of the brain, for the most part we dunno what the fuck it does, but these guys in the Gabon have been making tea outta this stuff for hundreds of years and it doesn’t seem ta kill most of ’em, a lot of the time. So just eat the shit, and then somethin’ simply magical happens,” doesn’t sound quite as impressive.’
I’m not writing this letter to make chit chat, I’m trying to sort out if it might not be a safer idea to dose with the ibogaine extract from indra over a period of time instead of taking one large dose of hcl all at once. I know a lot of you are very blase about this, but I’m not in the same place. If I saw half of what Patrick and Dave in particular talk about and act comfortable with I would be more then ready for a mental hospital. Ibogaine aside Patrick is or was dosing LSD at 5 and 10 mg levels which I can’t find at the moment but did read somewhere on this list I think. 5 or 10 mg is 50 to 100 times the normal dose level.
What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a different place mentally, where you accept all this and even enjoy being in different realities. I think you crossed the boundary from solving your drug problems to religious experience and kept on going.
I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only want to detox. From all I have read and I have done my best to understand the material online, none of you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of you accept all these different realities as fact. Most of you are not troubled by the fact that ibogaine can kill you and I have to think that if Dr. Mash is so set on hooking people up to heart monitors and equipment and what else I don’t know, it’s because she either knows something or has seen something which scared her a lot, or she wouldn’t be doing all that.
I don’t want to kill myself or see lights and eyes. I only want to detox.
Is there any reason past personal preference that I would have better results from hcl instead of indra extract?
Thank you for reading this far to those who have.
_Synergy_

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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Give us a break!
Date: June 24, 2002 at 1:05:13 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Judy ++

They think that cookies and coffee will at least keep the meth drinkers in treatment as it lowers your sugar level as you well know!
AND U r totally right to question it regardless
Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Joatammmo23@aol.com [mailto:Joatammmo23@aol.com]
Sent: 23 June 2002 04:38
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Give us a break!

Rick, how unflattering your post.  Weight can be controlled with  abundant exercise, and as far as getting healthier, sweets just turn your intestines into globs of placqe that stick to the stomach and stays there.  Ask any physician in the land, except a clinic doctor as they want you sick so they can make room for the younger junkies.
And, what do counselors throw out to munch on during group sessions?  Cookies and more cookies and all the caffienated coffee that you can drink.  Nice diet for patients that are trying to get it together!

Judy

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] bugs
Date: June 24, 2002 at 12:49:48 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Be careful about opening any funny looking emails. I
have gotten a number of virus infected emails lately
which I traced back to the ibogaine list(s).
Typically, they are blank (sometimes not) and have
large attachments which are infected. Some mailers may
get infected by simply opening so be careful and use
protection.

Brett

__________________________________________________
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http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 24, 2002 at 12:36:47 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

just my 2cents worth; (and hey just to prove I really was studying social policy +/examing in the last few weeks whilst away from list) fact: Americans (poor or rich) actually contribute more to charity than Europeans BUT then they have bigger health/edu/etc needs as a result of the fact that there is no so-called socialised health care in the U.S.

Andria E-Mordaunt 
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust
MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K 
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel 
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax
andriaem@drugscope.org.uk 
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Jellking [mailto:jellking@yahoo.com]
Sent: 21 June 2002 07:29
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!

“Sorry I thought you meant it as something against most‚Ä®people in america being that way. maybe I took it the‚Ä®wrong way. ‚Ä®‚Ä®-carrie”
That’s OK.¬† I’m an American, but I actually do believe we have a sick society, and I agree with Patrick that people, in general, regardless, of where they are, look out for number one and aren’t as interested in the suffering of others.¬† Which isn’t to say we don’t all, sometimes, give enormously, etc.¬† I wasn’t aware, prior to your comment above, that American patriotism was a requirement of this list.¬† Jane
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 24, 2002 at 11:56:41 AM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thank-you for sharing, and I wish fellowship folk would show better examples
than they tend to when they engage with the Ibogaine list, and indeed any
group that includes active users

With respect

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Ted [mailto:tedelliot@netlane.com]
Sent: 20 June 2002 21:44
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple

That right there is the greatest summary of what is wrong with all this.

Hello? I am interested in getting off heroin. This entire list is full
of……………………………….very very smart people on
hallucinogens (which I hate). You could move all of you to a psych ward and
I don’t think there’s one doctor who would think any of you are normal.

What the hell is all that?

What the hell is all this. It’s weird people on drugs with high iq’s
talking metaphysics.

What does any of it have to do with addiction.

Mindvox is whatever it is. It’s weird. It’s a tribute to mental illness and
addiction taken to art.

All of this is just plain weird. And that described most of you who post
anything here.

And that described everything that has anything to do with ibogaine. Not
once have I read anyone say anything like it detoxed me without all this
insanity. Ever thought maybe it belongs back in that jungle wherever it was

From the sidelines I’d have to say that going to a meeting is a lot simpler
and better then trying to figure out what any of you are doing or even
talking about. I’ve done a lot of drugs but I guess some of you leave me in

_____________________________________________
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Eden Project / Bwiti in France
Date: June 24, 2002 at 9:03:12 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Ibo people might be happy to learn that the UK’s Eden Project, a multimedia plant spectacular featuring the two largest biospheres in the world http://www.edenproject.com/, features a sample of Tabernanthe iboga in its Tropical/Humid section. The place is an unprecedented success, currently getting about 10,000 people daily through the door. Have written to the Tropical Plants section suggesting they increase the info given by the plant to include its anti-addictive properties.

Nick

///////////////////

from Laurent Sazy

hello Nick,
how are you?
just to inform you and friends that a Bwiti Mitsogho “troup” are coming in
south france , Montpellier city, for 2 nights ceremony on july 25-27.
they will stay 14 days in Montpellier.
they also bring every thing(rapphia, woodbark(to build the “corps de garde”)
music instrument, masks , tabernanth iboga and a lot of goood thing.
Professeur Jean Noel Gassitta is also coming.

laurent

From: Oliver Sparrow <ohgs@chforum.org>
Subject: Affect
Date: June 24, 2002 at 7:19:43 AM EDT
To: cognition_affect@cs.bham.ac.uk

It does seem to me that the bootstrapping of complex structures, including
the mysteries which give rise to awareness, is something which is
necessarily grounded in afferent data. Early data are sensoria and
kinaesthetic feedback, later data may be internal (memory, affect and the
like.) Experiment shows that without this scaffolding, self-assembly halts
and necessary dedication, pruning and cross-connections do not occur.

Affect – in all its more raw, traceable forms – does seem to be associated
with specific neural structures. For example, “feeling uncomfortable
because one is being looked at” has a specific concomitant (of at least a
part of the process) and this is generically located and now routinely
detected with FMR. It can be turned off with TCMS (a localised magnetic
field which disrupts neural processing) and this ‘feels like’ the stressor
going away. The lighting up of this module responds other parts of the
brain which superimpose the sets ‘face’ and ‘face turned towards me’ from
those of ‘eyes’ and ‘eyes turned at me’, which turn out to be the two
experimental principle components of this afferent path.

This response has to have been learned, as we know that it is not present
in children and young animals before a given development stage, and that it
can be permanently lost if the stimulus is not repeatedly presented. At
issue is whether the learning process is mediated by nothing but
cell-on-cell excitation, or whether there is an affective, process-level
component. As both will use cells, it is hard to think of a discriminatory
test without knowing more about the neural plumbing, which we don’t .

However, *why* we use high order constructs is easier to address. First, I
suggest that high order states of mind – affect, expectation of a percept
pattern, motor planning – serve to sensitise circuits that might be
associated with incoming data in ways which predispose them to handle that
information in particular ways, rather than in other ways of partitioning
that may have been learned: flight rather than fight, for example.

Second, a ‘face-looking-at-me’ detector almost certainly does not have
direct connections with all of the features to which it could be expected
to communicate. An analogy, is, perhaps, the action of hormones. There is
no need for the adrenal cortex to be directly wired to every cell that is
affected by its diffusing products. However, the targeting is nonetheless
highly specific. I cannot prove that affect is ‘diffused’ in the same way,
but it seems likely that this is at least one function of awareness: to
provide a platform for the synthesis and dissemination of the output of
exactly such isolated modules. That sensors look at such a synthesis, and
use its current state to sensitise or damp a given network is relatively
conceptually straightforward, although exactly how to instantiate such a
thing in ironwork is, well, challenging.
_____________________________________
Oliver Sparrow
Tel: UK (0)20 7736 9716
www.chforum.org and www.treknepal.org

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 23, 2002 at 6:35:58 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 01:30:08AM +0000], [eric seitz] wrote:

| Want to trade lives? No you don’t have a Rolls, you’ve injected about 15 of
| them so far. you’re driving a mercedes or a acura I don’t know what it was,
| didnt look. You’re not living under a bridge or in some burnt out building
| in the bronx like you have before. I’m close to 60, you’re close to 30. You
| have a very interesting life, mine is something I’m caught in. If you don’t
| go back to heroin you’re only going to have a more interesting life, you’re
| very smart, you have talent, you have everything going for you.
|
| I do therapy, I do groups. I’ve quit meds and joined a gym. You do nothing
| but give all these people the finger as often as you can. And you are clean.
|
| I have a lot of regrets. And a Rolls a condo and some clubs.

Sorry, I don’t have a time machine. ¬†If I did, I woulda used it and
<poofed> outta here, to roughly 1998 when .dot.bomb wuz alive and well,
and kept sum of dat cash.  Or even further back, and re-edited my whole
entire life. ¬†Shit happens, try to get over it, ‘cuz odds are even more
shit will happen in the future, life’s just like that.

As an observation — which does not constitute medical advice — you sound
kinda, sorta depressed. ¬†Going to the gym is great. ¬†If you’re hitting 60
what may also be great is to hook up with a doctor and get yourself
scripts for HGH and testosterone.

I absolutely promise that you’re gonna be much less depressed ’bout
things, and get a lot more enjoyment outta life.

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 23, 2002 at 6:21:07 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 01:11:23PM -0400], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:

| In a message dated 6/23/02 5:53:23 AM, synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:
|
| >Do any of you know how ibogaine really works? Does anyone? Because the
| >impression I’m getting from reading all the material I could find on those
| >three sites as well as doing a search through Patrick’s writing for Heroin
| >Times does nothing but bring up theories all of which have been disproved
| >over time or aren’t complete.
|
| How it really works, on my part, no full answer at all.  But, research on its
| many mechanisms of actions have been done.  See
| <www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html>. ¬†You might request a copy of Dr. Glick’s
| chapter, “Mechanisms of Action of Ibogaine: Relevance to Putative Therapeutic
| Effects and Development of a Safer Iboga Alkaloid Congener”. ¬†You can write
| to him at Dept of Pharmacology, Albany medical college, Albany, NY 12208.
| Or, order a copy of the book (Ibogaine: Proceedings of the First
| International Conference <www.ibogaine.org.apcontents.html) from Amazon.com.

Hey dude,

The ibogaine book is pretty cool and presents a relatively recent
collection of scientific materials — as well as historical background,
and general overview of the whole entire ibogaine scene — from a variety
of authors who are involved with research. ¬†If you’re really interested in
the current theories regarding mechanism of action, you prolly wanna check
it out.

| Or do a medline search <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/> for ibogaine
| mechanisms of action.

Yup

|
| Patrick can also direct you to some of Dr. Mash’s writings that may indicate
| mechanisms  of action on his web pages.

Yeah, well, everything isn’t really there yet. ¬†Ibogaine.neT isn’t *my*
site, I am just paid to run it, host it, and dump things into it.  I have
extremely limited control over what I can place there.  If you click under
[Science] then cruise through what’s online at the moment… ¬†That’s
pretty what’s been published.

– – – – – – – – –

As a brief reality check type thing. ¬†I think you’ve posted maybe 3 or 4
times, ask a question, then vanish for a while and ask another series of
questions which are more specific with each iteration. ¬†So you’re reading
and educating yourself, which is good.

Basically though it sorta seems like you’re barely wading in the water and
afraid to swim.  Nobody is ever going to give you the answer you hope to
hear, “it is completely safe, works exactly like this — in 10 easy to
understand concepts written in layperson terms — and you should do it.”

Brett gave a very reasonable overview of things n’ stuff, but the simple
truth is, if you flip through a PDR and look at the thousands of molecules
which are being prescribed… ¬†How does any of that work? ¬†Really, for the
most part we don’t know exactly. ¬†We generally know many things about the
mechanism of some molecules, the rest are … well, they’ve made it
through the FDA clinical trial phases and been approved for use.  <Shrug>

This is due to the fact that if you ever do any study on neuroanatomy or
molecular pharmacology, you will find a tremendous number of ommisions.  I
mean, what idiot wrote these technical manuals anyway?  They suck.
Whoops, I meant to say, what all of this shit is, is an attempt to reverse
engineer extremely dense object code. ¬†It’d be much simpler with the
source and a comment or 30,000 thrown in, but alas, these are lacking.

If you wanna know EXACTLY how and why it works, hold your breath and wait
a lifetime or three.

None of this changes the fact that it DOES work.

If you’ve made the decision to try it, then your next series of choices
pertain to where you’d like to do it, or how you wanna obtain it. ¬†I think
pretty much anybody and everybody who is involved in ibogaine treatment is
reading this list, so if you asked for input regarding that, you’d prolly
get a lotta email with options. ¬†Or you could cruise Nick’s site and look
at the treatment options, which are usually pretty up to date:

Ibogaine Treatment Centres and supply options

Nothing is completely safe or known.  In my own personal opinion, people
who sit and spin and think and talk about ibogaine and then never do it,
have other issues going on for them, which they are repressing and not
dealing with.  How safe is it to cop <whatever> from <whomever> on some
street corner, and then bang it in your veins… ¬†<repeat several thousand
times.>  The answer is: not very.

Patrick

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 23, 2002 at 2:36:18 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Michael Synergy <synergy9_11@yahoo.com> wrote:

I enjoy reading this list if for not other reason
then it’s much less depressing then any other
addiction oriented list I’ve ever read before.

I also do my best to look up answers to questions I
may have and try not to post every thought that
crosses my mind here without first doing some
homework.

The following questions which I hope someone can
answer are not explained in any way that I can
either find or understand on any of the ibogaine
sites. Not org, net, co.uk and if there is some
other source of ibogaine info I am missing please
tell me, because those three are about it each in
their own way.

Someone mentioned that doing MDMA after ibogaine was
a dangerous idea. Why is that? And how soon after is
after. A week a month, 6 months?

Ibogaine reacts with all kinds of STUFF. I couldn’t
say (been a long time) why not with MDMA but I believe
one woman was given MDMA during ibo and died. One
thought is serotonin is toxic, ibogaine boosts the
hell out of serotonin levels (happy camper levels) and
MDMA dumps all that serotonin stored up at once (that
is one reason you get high on it). Too much serotonin
is bad, don’t want to fry too many receptors at once.
Just a thought. Then nor-ibogaine sits in the body for
months, also increasing serotonin. I would guess that
taking MDMA after doing ibo will increase its effects.
How long till it is “safe”, well as far as I am
concerned MDMA is not exactly safe stuff, would be
much safer if you actually knew it was MDMA and not
some other junk or mixed with something else – which
is frequently mixed in. I do recall something about
having wild reactions to some hallucinogens, could
have been MDMA after doing ibo – try searching the
ibogaine@ibogaine.org archives.

The much larger question I have I don’t think has an
answer. That question is based in part on reading
the entheogen review article which was reprinted
here.

Do any of you know how ibogaine really works? Does

After writing a response (below) maybe my question to
you is “what do you mean by works?” – as in on what?
Ibogaine is an anti-biotic, an aphrodesiac among other
things, it is a tonic, mood enhancer, remedy for
barren women, it can block withdrawal (for lack of a
better description), lower the need for sleep,
unscatter the mind, actually do (for lack of better
description) repair work on brain structures… It
also may do any number of things it does in a person,
some combination or none at all. It is different
depending on if someone is a male or female, what
species they are and for that matter the day of the
week.

continued

Well, the answer is sort of. No one knows exactly
how/why ibogaine works, not me, not Howard, not Glick,
not Mash, not nobody. Yes, there are contradictions,
even doing what appears to be the same tests sometimes
yield different results. Let me point out one thing in
your efforts. It is nice to know but knowing or not
will not change the fact it does work.  There is a lot
of work on the sites you already mentioned as to why
it seems to work, and yes it is contradictory in some
places. How is this, it works (just picking  a number)
dozens of different places, they all contribute, block
one or a few (eg with naltrexone) and ibogaine still
works, hummm. Does that mean ibogaine does not work at
opiate receptors because when they are blocked, it
still works, no – it works there but will still work
if it is blocked, just not as well.

anyone? Because the impression I’m getting from
reading all the material I could find on those three
sites as well as doing a search through Patrick’s
writing for Heroin Times does nothing but bring up
theories all of which have been disproved over time
or aren’t complete.

Sorry guy, that is all there is, theories though I
disagree that they have all been disproved. Ibogaine
certainly effects the dopamine and serotonin systems,
even modifies dopamine response to drugs, this is well
documented.

One thing you must understand is that NO ONE knows
what causes withdrawal, not exactly, they have
theories and such. So, you cannot say (or that is a
real hard question) is how ibogaine works to stop
something (withdrawal) when we don’t know what causes
withdrawal in the first place.

Maybe you are looking at it with the wrong question.
Your question is why does ibogaine work, well maybe
your question would be better put, why does ibogaine
work on these smaller pieces of the puzzle. Eg, it
does alter dopamine response to drugs, we pretty much
know what it does and how. Why does ibogaine improve
mood after doing ibo, why does ibogaine seem to do
resetting of the brain. Maybe we don’t have complete
answers but are closer with those than why it stops
withdrawal. Another example (different drug) is
Salvia, we don’t even know where in the brain it plugs
in (totally unknown) but it doesn’t stop it from
plugging in wherever it does and tripping one out.

It looks like nobody is exactly sure how ibogaine
works despite real scientists working with it for a
decade or more now.

I know that this could be applied to most
hallucinogens and yes I know ibogaine isn’t
technically a hallucinogenic drug.

The key difference looks to be that whatever any
hallucinogenic drug might do to your perceptions, it
will not get rid of your addictions. Ibogaine gets
rid of all of them all at once. That’s a little
spooky. What sounds even more spooky is that review
saying that ibogaine re writes genetic expression.
Re writes it to what? What exactly is it doing to
the brain to re arrange everything in one dose?

It would worry me more if it wasn’t for the fact
that most of you who have done it look like you’re
not in wheelchairs or walking around with brain
damage and whatever might be said about using the
term ‘crazy’ saying different or not normal is a
better description.

Is there a reasonable expection that somebody is
going to figure it out in the next 5 years, 10
years, 20 years? Because as far as I know, even now
they still haven’t done so with LSD.

This is a exact quote from Patrick and I understand
it’s a joke but it doesn’t look like it’s that funny
or far from truth.

‘Seems like a good theory, theories are important.
Like fer instance without theories you couldn’t hold
Ibogaine conferences and go up on stage and point at
little charts and graphs, and write monographs and
things. Saying, “it seems to interact with 90% of
the brain, for the most part we dunno what the fuck
it does, but these guys in the Gabon have been
making tea outta this stuff for hundreds of years
and it doesn’t seem ta kill most of ’em, a lot of
the time. So just eat the shit, and then somethin’
simply magical happens,” doesn’t sound quite as
impressive.’

I’m not writing this letter to make chit chat, I’m
trying to sort out if it might not be a safer idea
to dose with the ibogaine extract from indra over a
period of time instead of taking one large dose of
hcl all at once. I know a lot of you are very blase
about this, but I’m not in the same place. If I saw
half of what Patrick and Dave in particular talk
about and act comfortable with I would be more then
ready for a mental hospital. Ibogaine aside Patrick
is or was dosing LSD at 5 and 10 mg levels which I
can’t find at the moment but did read somewhere on
this list I think. 5 or 10 mg is 50 to 100 times the
normal dose level.

What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a
different place mentally, where you accept all this
and even enjoy being in different realities. I think
you crossed the boundary from solving your drug
problems to religious experience and kept on going.

I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only
want to detox. From all I have read and I have done
my best to understand the material online, none of
you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of
you accept all these different realities as fact.
Most of you are not troubled by the fact that
ibogaine can kill you and I have to think that if
Dr. Mash is so set on hooking people up to heart
monitors and equipment and what else I don’t know,
it’s because she either knows something or has seen
something which scared her a lot, or she wouldn’t be
doing all that.

I don’t want to kill myself or see lights and eyes.
I only want to detox.

Is there any reason past personal preference that I
would have better results from hcl instead of indra
extract?

Thank you for reading this far to those who have.

_Synergy_

———————————
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Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 23, 2002 at 1:11:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 6/23/02 5:53:23 AM, synergy9_11@yahoo.com writes:

Do any of you know how ibogaine really works? Does anyone? Because the
impression I’m getting from reading all the material I could find on those
three sites as well as doing a search through Patrick’s writing for Heroin
Times does nothing but bring up theories all of which have been disproved
over time or aren’t complete.

How it really works, on my part, no full answer at all.  But, research on its
many mechanisms of actions have been done.  See
<www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html>. ¬†You might request a copy of Dr. Glick’s
chapter, “Mechanisms of Action of Ibogaine: Relevance to Putative Therapeutic
Effects and Development of a Safer Iboga Alkaloid Congener”. ¬†You can write
to him at Dept of Pharmacology, Albany medical college, Albany, NY 12208.
Or, order a copy of the book (Ibogaine: Proceedings of the First
International Conference <www.ibogaine.org.apcontents.html) from Amazon.com.

Or do a medline search <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/> for ibogaine
mechanisms of action.

Patrick can also direct you to some of Dr. Mash’s writings that may indicate
mechanisms  of action on his web pages.

Howard

From: lauren_saunders@talk21.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 23, 2002 at 7:07:42 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I don’t know answers about indra or hcl or even ibogaine, someone else can say much better then I do.

Mindvox is crazy beautiful, art and spirit and madness.

Crazy mentally ill is all around and everywhere, it is not very rare and not so beautiful. If ibogaine cause that, then I would not say it is a bad thing.

I do not think ibogaine can do that, that is people taking what is given them and doing work with it. That was discussed week or so ago on this listing.

love to you all

ls

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com

From: Michael Synergy <synergy9_11@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine q’s
Date: June 23, 2002 at 5:52:56 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I enjoy reading this list if for not other reason then it’s much less depressing then any other addiction oriented list I’ve ever read before.
I also do my best to look up answers to questions I may have and try not to post every thought that crosses my mind here without first doing some homework.
The following questions which I hope someone can answer are not explained in any way that I can either find or understand on any of the ibogaine sites. Not org, net, co.uk and if there is some other source of ibogaine info I am missing please tell me, because those three are about it each in their own way.
Someone mentioned that doing MDMA after ibogaine was a dangerous idea. Why is that? And how soon after is after. A week a month, 6 months?
The much larger question I have I don’t think has an answer. That question is based in part on reading the entheogen review article which was reprinted here.
Do any of you know how ibogaine really works? Does anyone? Because the impression I’m getting from reading all the material I could find on those three sites as well as doing a search through Patrick’s writing for Heroin Times does nothing but bring up theories all of which have been disproved over time or aren’t complete.
It looks like nobody is exactly sure how ibogaine works despite real scientists working with it for a decade or more now.
I know that this could be applied to most hallucinogens and yes I know ibogaine isn’t technically a hallucinogenic drug.
The key difference looks to be that whatever any hallucinogenic drug might do to your perceptions, it will not get rid of your addictions. Ibogaine gets rid of all of them all at once. That’s a little spooky. What sounds even more spooky is that review saying that ibogaine re writes genetic expression. Re writes it to what? What exactly is it doing to the brain to re arrange everything in one dose?
It would worry me more if it wasn’t for the fact that most of you who have done it look like you’re not in wheelchairs or walking around with brain damage and whatever might be said about using the term ‘crazy’ saying different or not normal is a better description.
Is there a reasonable expection that somebody is going to figure it out in the next 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Because as far as I know, even now they still haven’t done so with LSD.
This is a exact quote from Patrick and I understand it’s a joke but it doesn’t look like it’s that funny or far from truth.

‘Seems like a good theory, theories are important. Like fer instance without theories you couldn’t hold Ibogaine conferences and go up on stage and point at little charts and graphs, and write monographs and things. Saying, “it seems to interact with 90% of the brain, for the most part we dunno what the fuck it does, but these guys in the Gabon have been making tea outta this stuff for hundreds of years and it doesn’t seem ta kill most of ’em, a lot of the time. So just eat the shit, and then somethin’ simply magical happens,” doesn’t sound quite as impressive.’
I’m not writing this letter to make chit chat, I’m trying to sort out if it might not be a safer idea to dose with the ibogaine extract from indra over a period of time instead of taking one large dose of hcl all at once. I know a lot of you are very blase about this, but I’m not in the same place. If I saw half of what Patrick and Dave in particular talk about and act comfortable with I would be more then ready for a mental hospital. Ibogaine aside Patrick is or was dosing LSD at 5 and 10 mg levels which I can’t find at the moment but did read somewhere on this list I think. 5 or 10 mg is 50 to 100 times the normal dose level.
What I’m getting at is a lot of you are in a different place mentally, where you accept all this and even enjoy being in different realities. I think you crossed the boundary from solving your drug problems to religious experience and kept on going.
I do not want to do that. At least not yet. I only want to detox. From all I have read and I have done my best to understand the material online, none of you really know how or why ibogaine works. Most of you accept all these different realities as fact. Most of you are not troubled by the fact that ibogaine can kill you and I have to think that if Dr. Mash is so set on hooking people up to heart monitors and equipment and what else I don’t know, it’s because she either knows something or has seen something which scared her a lot, or she wouldn’t be doing all that.
I don’t want to kill myself or see lights and eyes. I only want to detox.
Is there any reason past personal preference that I would have better results from hcl instead of indra extract?
Thank you for reading this far to those who have.
_Synergy_

Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Give us a break!
Date: June 22, 2002 at 11:37:44 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Rick, how unflattering your post.  Weight can be controlled with  abundant exercise, and as far as getting healthier, sweets just turn your intestines into globs of placqe that stick to the stomach and stays there.  Ask any physician in the land, except a clinic doctor as they want you sick so they can make room for the younger junkies.
And, what do counselors throw out to munch on during group sessions?  Cookies and more cookies and all the caffienated coffee that you can drink.  Nice diet for patients that are trying to get it together!

Judy

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: A pasSing thoT
Date: June 22, 2002 at 10:24:59 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is not the appropriate place for dis heah infomayshun, but I likes
youz, so

If you invest in ANYTHING, you wanna read this:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Technology%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_tech&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_technology&bt=ad_position1_technology&middle=ad_frame2_technology&s=APRLQkxVYU3VuIE1p

Sun ain’t going nowhere.

If you don’t have a broker, there are many discount brokerage houses all
over the place.

Anybody wanna lend me $250K?

Patrick

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] entheogen review
Date: June 21, 2002 at 2:25:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 6/21/02 1:38:21 PM, lauren_saunders@talk21.com writes:

<< I love to read this list! you’re all very beautiful and strange people!

Please if anyone has copy of article on ibogaine from entheogen review could
you please tell me url, post it here or mail to me?

thank you!

ls >>

The copy was provided to the list at an earlier date by Nick Sandberg.  See
below.

Howard
******
from The Entheogen Review, Vol XI, Number 1, Vernal Equinox

Ibogaine: Proceedings of the First International Conference, by KENNETH R.
ALPER and STANLEY D. GLICK (Eds) 2001. (ACADEMIC PRESS, 525 B Street, Suite
1900, San Diego, CA 92101-4495, www.academicpress.com), ISBN 0-12053-206-9
(6″ x 9″ softbound $79.95, 333 pp., alkaloid index and general index.

I’ve had a long-standing interest in Tabernanthe iboga and ibogaine studies
ever since I published the GOUTAREL, GOLLNOFER, and SILLANS summary,
“Pharmacodynamics and Therapeutic Applications of Iboga and Ibogaine,” in my
Psychedelic Monographs and Essays Vol. 6. This article collected everything
known in English in 1993 about ibogaine research. Dr GOUTAREL was the
scientist who originally helped isolate ibogaine alkaloids in the early
1950s. Soon after this article was published, several books appeared,
including The Ibogaine Project: Report on the Staten Island Project by PAUL
DE RIENZO and DANA BEAL (Autonomedia, 1997), and Iboga by AMON KNUT ML
(Maribor, 1994). And papers continue to appear in academic and medical
journals.

Along with this glut of publishing came many mystical and romantic notions
of ibogaine as an “addiction cure” (now called an “addiction interrupter”).
Ibogaine achieved – at least for a while – postmodern ‘soma’ status. Soap
opera camp – as publicized by the HOWARD LOTSOF/DEBORAH MASH “wars”
surrounding ibogaine patents – appeared as an aside. During this tug-of-war,
science continued onward. Research has been collected and serious science
has evolved regarding ibogaine. Ibogaine: The Proceedings celebrates 40
years of investigations and evolving therapy regimes.

As with soma, ibogaine is a subject which deserves the higher ground, and
this new book is written by the best minds available, with funding and
continued research as its goal. IBOGAINE: THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
was held in New York City in 1999, and this book collects the proceedings,
plus more. Adding to pharmaceutical and toxicology research is new
information regarding therapies that use ibogaine, including traditional
Bwiti therapies, various encounter and shock therapies, dream therapies –
even amateur therapies using ibogaine in uncontrolled doses, based on
self-help models.

What are the real issues here? One real issue is hard-core heroin and
cocaine addiction and the hard-core shamanic cure – a dramatic cure that
imparts psychic powers on the survivor. Another issue is talking to the
dead. A further issue is talking to angels and demons during the iboga
visions. Let’s not forget the issue of time travel, commonly reported. And
the issues of heaven and hell, both of which open their gates – what about
this? And, oh yes – somewhere in the midst of all this are the issues of
neurology and brain science.

Many of the chapters and papers in Ibogaine: The Proceedings are highly
technical, and deal with aspects of ibogaine’s pharmacological and
toxicological actions. Such include neurotransmitter activities, effects on
neuropeptides, metabolism, excretion, and locomotor activity. Of interest to
me however were the psychological papers studying ibogaine’s effects on
learning, memory, and EEG. EMMANUEL NAIVE’S chapter “Changes in Gene
Expression and Signal Transduction Following Ibogaine Treatment” presents
the startling fact that ibogaine can rewrite gene expression, which leads
directly to voltage and electrical regulation through intracellular
communication. Such cell cross-talk is connected to learning and the way
information is gated or processed into memory – something that is claimed to
be observable in real time by some ibogaine trippers.

The chapter “Returning to the Path: The Use of Iboga[ine] in Equatorial
African Ritual Context and the Binding of Time, Space, and Social
Relationship” by JAMES and RENATE FERNANDEZ is also important. JAMES wrote
the seminal study – Bwiti: An Ethnography of the Religious Imagination in
Africa (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY PRESS, 1982). The Bwiti are the celebrated
African tribe that originally used the iboga plant in its occult ceremonies.
A cult within the Bwiti called the Fang is also mentioned. The Bwiti live
partly in this world, and partly in a mythical land contacted by iboga
initiates.

We also see reviews of LOTSOF’S NDA INTERNATIONAL AND ICASH (International
Coalition of Addiction Self-Help), a therapy based loosely on the work of
ALDOUS HUXLEY and DR TIMOTHY LEARY. DR DEBORAH MASH and her ibogaine clinics
in St Kitts in the Caribbean are described. Dr MASH is also famous at the
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI MEDICAL SCHOOL for performing a brain autopsy, seeking
clues to ibogaine’s inner workings.

ERIC TAUB’S ibogaine sessions are discussed. Here we see less therapy and
more shamanic ritual (similar to the ideals of the Bwiti). MYRON STOLAROFF
reports on west coast therapy scenes and regimens, and his book ‘The Secret
Chief’ is mentioned. From the Netherlands we hear about DASH/INTASH, THE
CENTER FOR ADDICTION RESEARCH AT ERASMUS UNIVERSITY and the work of NICO
ADRIAANS, a field researcher studying street addiction and therapeutic
communities. From Slovenia we hear about the work of MARKO RESINOVIC, who
founded the SLOVENIAN IBOGAINE FOUNDATION in 1995. Worth noting is the
pricing structure – $200.00 for a gram of ibogaine hydrochloride with
therapy, as opposed to several thousand dollars for the therapy of DR. MASH
or ERIC TAUB! Curious. The section on Denmark describes interesting scenes
alleged to have existed within CHRISTIANA, the anarchist “village” near
Copenhagen. A 44 kilogram supply of ibogaine hydrochloride connected to
CHRISTIANA was mentioned, circa 1981. This stash was code named “Indra” and
used to treat over 1000 advanced heroin junkies in CHRISTIANA village. We
hear of a gram of ibogaine hydrochloride going for $25 in CHRISTIANA….
Netherlands therapists worked with this same “Indra” supply for years,
pricing therapy at $600.00 to $1000.00. In the United Kingdom, thanks to
sales of The Ibogaine Story, and a video sponsored by the group CURES NOT
WARS and promoted by the GREEN political party, ibogaine therapy flourishes.
In Italy, GIORGIO SAMORINI’S work is mentioned, as are his forays into Bwiti
Initiations. In the Czech Republic, it costs $500 for treatment with
ibogaine. In France an actual ‘nganga’ – a Bwiti ritual guide – officiated
ibogaine therapy for $1000. (I published a photo of a Bwiti Nganga sorceror
in my PM&E journal, replete with loincloth and bone pointing, once upon a
time…)

In Africa, the home of the Bwiti and the iboga plant, we hear about DAN
LIEBERMAN, an ethnobotanist who was involved in arranging Bwiti ceremonies
in Gabon (before his death in 2000). This section of the book focusses on
medical and therapeutic subcultures – something of relevance to readers of
The Entheogen Review, because we are just that – a subculture.

Ibogaine: Proceedings also shows time lines of ibogaine-related discoveries,
and has a special index just for alkaloids titled “The Alkaloids, A
Cumulative Index of Titles, 1950 – 2001.” This includes references for
syntheses of the active compounds in ‘qat’, Ephedra, ergot, and even rare
amphibian spider-, and wasp-toxin alkaloids, as well as chemicals such as
piperidine and morphine. This special index is an interesting addition to
iboga alkaloid chemistry. A 10-page regular index rounds things off.

All in all, Ibogaine: Proceedings Of The First International Conference is a
solid addition to the literature. The book is a welcome return to ibogaine
science and resets ibogaine mythology with real world, modern practices –
both within the clinic and traditional Bwiti cults. This is a book that will
serve the ibogaine community and psychedelic researchers for years to come.
Unfortunately, the book is somewhat expensive, at about $80 soft-bound.
However, owing to the tremendous resources, networks, and histories pulled
together here, we have a winner worth the dough.

DR ALPER and DR GLICK, I toast you. The Bwiti thank you, the spirits of
iboga thank you, and patients thank you, Amen and peace – THOMAS LYTTLE

From: lauren_saunders@talk21.com
Subject: [ibogaine] entheogen review
Date: June 21, 2002 at 1:31:06 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I love to read this list! you’re all very beautiful and strange people!

Please if anyone has copy of article on ibogaine from entheogen review could you please tell me url, post it here or mail to me?

thank you!

ls

——————–
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: June 21, 2002 at 12:53:01 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

It’s funny, ’cause I seem to have bucked that trend too, the one where¬†I’m supposed to stay out of heavy duty relationships when arresting drug abuse behavioral traits, as I launched right into one when I stopped shooting up, I mean, immediately, and am still in the same one nearly 6 years later.
Of course, by NA standards, I’m not clean. I’m dirty but happy, so who cares?
Would I have wanted a long term relationship had I gone the ibogaine route? Anyone heard of it affecting relationships, and/or how it affects people dealing with other people?
Happy first day of summer all.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt
To: ‘ibogaine@mindvox.com’
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox

You’re both mad, LOVE andria!

On a more serious note; in 1987, when I was very newcomer in NA London, I
hooked up with a dark, handsome, smart boy half-Iranian and half German; he
also danced very oddly!! I thought that as he hadn’t had a long habit (of H)
that it would be safe; we were both a few months ‘clean’ in NA terms except
I’d also done intense rehab, and was possibly a bit more aware of the depths
of denial we can go to to protect our drug-use. Anyway, it was lovely, and
intense and we loved to talk socio-political/phil etc: 3 months in, the
intimacy terror clicked, neither of us took note of it, and soon after he
called me at work and non-chalantly mentioned that he’d copped a bag of dope
that day.

We talked, I said I was scared shitless, and fuming about his ‘lapse’
(though he insisted he didn’t use it.) Whatever, I’d already mourned a
fellow dopefiend i’d loved, and i explained and said we should stop now, and
perhaps focus more on our own lives and recovery etc (as you do…) Many
tears, but profound friendship established very soon.

(eventually we lost contact) – he left NA, died a few yrs ago, and no I’m
not saying it was my/his fault, but I do think this is a biggy for us –
intimacy I mean. NOT CONVINCED that it’s not equally a biggy for the rest of
the human race, but we do tend to take BIGGER risks with ourselves in order
to ‘deal’ with it.

My point: the NA rhetoric might be right on that issue!! (Newcomers should
focus on getting their bodies and spirits back in gear) For me, all these
life experiences have simply made me very (RELUCTANTLY) cautious of hooking
up with active drinkers or whatever

Sorry guys, this wasn’t meant to get that serious! Anyway, hope u don’t
mind.

AND I’m back from exam-hermitization
Preston, will get onto that UV job now

HOPE you’re all well

RESPECT

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 31 May 2002 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

> Yo, that’s wrong too.¬† The REAL first step is to immediately establish a
> strong codependence on someone else of the opposite sex.  No worries, yo
> baby, yo baby, yo baby, yo…¬† I will SAVE YOU from yourself!¬† I’ve got
> whatchoo want!
>
> Unfortunately, there’s a little problem with that…¬† 2 weeks later, once
> the eXciting newness of the situation has faded a little, it spins right
> around to, “Look, that wasn’t me, that was my dick…¬† The problem is,
> you’re Completely Fucking Crazy, Annoying beyond belief, and I am FILLED
> with the URGE to STRANGLE you…¬† So, like, go to a meeting and share.”

and then the best part is you can justify all your devious mal-intent on the
DIS-EASE!!!

moohahahahahah!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox
Date: June 21, 2002 at 12:13:51 PM EDT
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You’re both mad, LOVE andria!

On a more serious note; in 1987, when I was very newcomer in NA London, I
hooked up with a dark, handsome, smart boy half-Iranian and half German; he
also danced very oddly!! I thought that as he hadn’t had a long habit (of H)
that it would be safe; we were both a few months ‘clean’ in NA terms except
I’d also done intense rehab, and was possibly a bit more aware of the depths
of denial we can go to to protect our drug-use. Anyway, it was lovely, and
intense and we loved to talk socio-political/phil etc: 3 months in, the
intimacy terror clicked, neither of us took note of it, and soon after he
called me at work and non-chalantly mentioned that he’d copped a bag of dope
that day.

We talked, I said I was scared shitless, and fuming about his ‘lapse’
(though he insisted he didn’t use it.) Whatever, I’d already mourned a
fellow dopefiend i’d loved, and i explained and said we should stop now, and
perhaps focus more on our own lives and recovery etc (as you do…) Many
tears, but profound friendship established very soon.

(eventually we lost contact) – he left NA, died a few yrs ago, and no I’m
not saying it was my/his fault, but I do think this is a biggy for us –
intimacy I mean. NOT CONVINCED that it’s not equally a biggy for the rest of
the human race, but we do tend to take BIGGER risks with ourselves in order
to ‘deal’ with it.

My point: the NA rhetoric might be right on that issue!! (Newcomers should
focus on getting their bodies and spirits back in gear) For me, all these
life experiences have simply made me very (RELUCTANTLY) cautious of hooking
up with active drinkers or whatever

Sorry guys, this wasn’t meant to get that serious! Anyway, hope u don’t
mind.

AND I’m back from exam-hermitization
Preston, will get onto that UV job now

HOPE you’re all well

RESPECT

Andria E-Mordaunt
Users Voice ed./John Mordaunt Trust

MON & WEDS РC/O Drugscope,  32 Loman St, London, SE1 OEE, U.K
0+ 44 (0)207 928 1211 Tel
0+ 44 (0)207 922 8780  Fax

andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
or Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk <mailto:Usersvoice.jmt@drugscope.org.uk>

—–Original Message—–
From: Gamma [mailto:gammalyte9000@yahoo.com]
Sent: 31 May 2002 00:10
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: mindvox

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:

Yo, that’s wrong too. ¬†The REAL first step is to immediately establish a
strong codependence on someone else of the opposite sex.  No worries, yo
baby, yo baby, yo baby, yo… ¬†I will SAVE YOU from yourself! ¬†I’ve got
whatchoo want!

Unfortunately, there’s a little problem with that… ¬†2 weeks later, once
the eXciting newness of the situation has faded a little, it spins right
around to, “Look, that wasn’t me, that was my dick… ¬†The problem is,
you’re Completely Fucking Crazy, Annoying beyond belief, and I am FILLED
with the URGE to STRANGLE you… ¬†So, like, go to a meeting and share.”

and then the best part is you can justify all your devious mal-intent on the
DIS-EASE!!!

moohahahahahah!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibo
Date: June 21, 2002 at 8:42:35 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I believe it is legal but restricted from import in
AU, unless something changed.

Brett
— Joatammmo23@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 6/14/02 8:05:20 PM Central
Daylight Time,
carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:

i’m trying to set up an ibo thing
in australia
on the west coast

Is ibo within the law in Australia?  It seems as if
your country is much more
liberal than the US.  We have to fight for any thing
new to this country and
let the FDA do their trials before it can be cut
loose, as was methadone
before Dole and Nyswander.

J. Ostergard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 21, 2002 at 2:28:30 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Sorry I thought you meant it as something against most‚Ä®people in america being that way. maybe I took it the‚Ä®wrong way. ‚Ä®‚Ä®-carrie”
That’s OK.¬† I’m an American, but I actually do believe we have a sick society, and I agree with Patrick that people, in general, regardless, of where they are, look out for number one and aren’t as interested in the suffering of others.¬† Which isn’t to say we don’t all, sometimes, give enormously, etc.¬† I wasn’t aware, prior to your comment above, that American patriotism was a requirement of this list.¬† Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] sugar
Date: June 21, 2002 at 1:40:04 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 6/20/02 10:05:19 AM Central Daylight Time, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:

everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit. ¬†The
universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting
healthier
and eating better now!  Your teeth are getting all fucked up,
because
people like sweets,

For one thing when you begin a meth program you are not told of the terrible side effects of the drug. ¬†In the beginning of meth treatment I think that patients just forget to brush their teeth before bed, because they are feeling quite good. ¬†And the sweet craving is so monumental that it’s hard to control without hardcore viligence. ¬†We have run into a catch 22…the meth makes you fat because of the sweets, yet if you would make yourself brush them babies three times per day you would still get fat, but your teeth would be in much better condition.
I have been on meth for 25yrs…so I know. ¬†The sweats are not going to go away and neither are the involuntary twitches.
Luck to all

Judith Ostergard…AMMO

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibo
Date: June 21, 2002 at 12:04:44 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 6/14/02 8:05:20 PM Central Daylight Time, carlambarnes@yahoo.com writes:

i’m trying to set up an ibo thing
> in australia
>  on the west coast

Is ibo within the law in Australia?  It seems as if your country is much more liberal than the US.  We have to fight for any thing new to this country and let the FDA do their trials before it can be cut loose, as was methadone before Dole and Nyswander.

J. Ostergard

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 10:40:16 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Wow.

This is like so much all at once and so cool.

I’m printing this.

I can’t find the URL though it won’t load it?

-carrie

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 03:25:14PM -0400], [preston
peet] wrote:

| >What really works is resonating with Purple and
letting it flow through
| you. <
|
| This is the second or third time I’ve seen this-
what does this mean,
| the reference to Purple? I mean, I love the color,
one of my very
| favorites, being royalty and all, but is there
something else to this?
| Is this a Philip K Dick reference or something? Or
a Patrick Kroupa
| original?

Laughing… ¬†Yes, *I* invented the Purple
Shit!(TM)(R)(C)(Patent Pending),
although Philip K. Dick is involved, because Valis
is woven into the
strands of all reality. ¬†Just ask Dana, he’ll tell
you.

Lemme look… ¬†<looking…>

Okay, HERE, The Whole Entire Truth (in its complete
totality):

| But what did you do though to get somewhere? You
say pieces in HT and here,
| I think I understand some of mindvox but when I
start to get it it becomes
| imcomprehensible it’s brilliant or crazy. I know
your having a book
| published or something but the only thing online
that’s even close is
|

http://www.mindvox.com/MindVox/Places/Texts/CrackPipe.html
and it looks like
| you cut pieces of different times from all over
and threw them together.
|
| What do you do??? Really, not just the recovery
talk you give people.

Nothing, anything, everything. ¬†It’s as simple or
complex as you wanna
make it; change paradigms.

Usually what I do is get horny, wander around in sex
for a while, which is
okay, but, if love doesn’t get mixed into the
picture I wind up with the
armies of the universe inside my head; which is
kinda like, oh fuck me, I
was having a great time and now there is all this
shit, it’s violence,
brutality, destruction, and every single one of the
energies taking part,
is all me, so I’m killing and being killed by
myself; which is sick,
painful and kinda cool, all at the same time.
Getting outta red and into
green is sorta a bitch because green keeps refusing
to let go, usually I
spin around in all this for a while and eventually
manage to hit gold, but
that’s rough for me — though, it’s getting easier
— I kinda hafta slide
in sideways off of compassion and empathy to hit
love.  The rest is easy,
blue is intellect, that’s just online, and all of
this is just a journey
on the road to the Purple Shit.

Eventually it feels sorta like blowing a load up
your spine, which
probably isn’t happening, I mean, intellectually I
know erection, orgasm,
ejaculation, are separate systems, but mahn, it sure
feels like it.  The
whirlpools spin and resolve into eyes, which blow
open, hyperventilating
increases the opacity of the eyes, kinda like
adjusting the alpha channel
or sumthin’, taking really slow, deep breaths, or
stopping breathing for a
while, makes them expand in number and radius and
blow outwards, until it
feels like you’re football stadium sized, and you’re
at the Purple Shit
(TM).

The Purple Shit is everywhere, in everything, it’s
energy, but alive,
sentient, and it loves you.  It feels something like
everything you are,
is a receiver/transmitter for channeling the Purple
Shit (which ya can
call God, cosmic consciousness, whatever makes you
happy).

After a while you don’t need any substances to do
this anymore. ¬†It’s like
re-remembering something you forgot a long time ago,
and just falling back
into it.  Being in touch with this on a semi-regular
basis seems to fix
90% of what’s wrong, most of the time. ¬†Though,
various PieceS and tHINGs
still come raining down, because I’m not perfect.

So, mostly, on a day-to-day basis, what holds me
together is blue and
green.  Intellect reinforced by will.  If I counted
on love, positive
energy, and being happy, to consistently prevent me
from bangin’ up dope,
I’d last half a day at most.

My main Unresolved Issue are The Colours.  The
chakras get painted with
green at the heart chakra, gold as will. ¬†I don’t
see them this way,
they’re reversed. ¬†Is my energy system color blind,
is everyone else
wrong, am I just that fucked up… ¬†dunno <shrug>
one day I’ll prolly
resolve it.

Uhm, woops, wait no, that’s wrong.

What I meant to say was; my “recovery” hinges upon
an excellent
relationship with my psychiatrist, strict adherence
to a regimen of
medication, and a solid foundation built on the
12-steps.  Yeah baby!

– – – – – – – – –

People who have said stuff which has a lotta
resonance for me are
Muktananda and lately — thanks to Nick —
Rajneesh/Osho.

A lot of books contain pieces of truth, the single
greatest collection of
truth I have ever found in one place is in two
books:

The Solaris System Admin Guide, by Sun Microsystems,
and Machiavelli’s
cool little epic, The Prince.  Though, to be honest,
the religion of BSD
calls strongly to me, and I really like Mach running
the BSD 4.4 kernel.

No, wait, that’s wrong too, I meant:

One’s by Alex Grey, which doesn’t have a lot of
words, it’s called Sacred
Mirrors.  And this was like pivotal in my life.
When a lotta this first
happened, I wasn’t in an environment where it was…
okay or accepted, and
as cool as it was, I thought I was losing my mind
until I saw this
magazine — which was a druggie mag, not High Times,
maybe Magical Blend
or sumthin’ — which had Grey’s painting called
“Dying.” ¬†At the time I
didn’t know that, I thought it was Awakening, and it
wuz like, holy shit,
this guy I know nothing about is painting exactly
what I’m looking at. ¬†He
sees ¬†it too, I’m not crazy.

The other book is called Holographic Universe by
Michael Talbot, and it’s
utterly beautiful and links together such a
disparate and wide-ranging
series of topics and phenomena that it’s amazing.
Read this if ya read
nothing else, even maybe a few paragraphs at a time.

– – – – – – – – –

Just believe.  If you believe with enough focus, a
Rift in Time and Space
may open right in the middle of the Mars bar, and
green ibogaine sludge
mixed with DMSO might Hurtle Downwards upon the
Patrons — kinda like
Cthulhu meets the Iceman Cometh, with strands of
Philip K. Dick woven in
— and a great WAVE of hEALINg will SWEEP the land,
“oh my fucking god…
I’ve been drunk and strung-out for 49 years, what
the hell is all this
crap I’m seeing, is this reality? ¬†Man do I need a
drink.”

That concludes this evening’s sermon. ¬†Donation box
is over on the left on
your way out, thank you veddy much.

In conclusion, go to a meeting and share, you’ll
feel better about things.
You’re right where you need to be, it’s all part of
God’s .plan for you.
Just take things one day at a time, you have a
horrible disease.

And if you listen very hard, the tune will come to
you at last, when all
are one and one is all.

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 20, 2002 at 10:20:26 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Carrie, well I was just agreeing with Patrick.  I
didn’t mean ALL wealthy people; thought that was
obvious.  Nor did I mean all poor people are more
generous. ¬†It’s a fact in fundraising, though, that
more mid-to-little income people give money to
causes they believe in than mid-to-upper do. (of
course, it’s less money, net, unlike income tax).
Not trying to diss anyone, just adding some
commentary.  Jane

Hi Jane!

Sorry I thought you meant it as something against most
people in america being that way. maybe I took it the
wrong way.

-carrie

__________________________________________________
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From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 10:16:33 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

OMG, poor little rich me.

Try to get over it. Do something fun. This reminds me
of the bitchfest from grumpy florida residents who
don’t want to be there.

Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

-carrie

— eric seitz <erictseitz@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>

Jesus… ¬†You people are such a bunch of pussies.
“I… Dr. Mash is gonna
breathe fire and then throw a lightning bolt at me
<hiding>” ¬†Deborah’s a
sweetheart, youz guys are just … fogget it…

To you maybe. You both have the same guidebook to
life, the one where it
says normal communication involves screaming,
yelling, smashing things,
being psychotic. The only difference is you do
psychedelics and can be a
surprisingly decent person. She doesn’t and mostly
isn’t, not to say she
can’t be, she can, but not to most.

Do0d mahn, dog yo… ¬†Thanks a bunch. ¬†That’s the
nicest thing you’ve ever
said to me <wiping tears>.

I know that whoever responded took me
straightforward I was being half
serious half not. You are an arrogant prick, you’re
also a decent human
being. Sorry to tell you that.

So, lemme ask… ¬†I’m curious. ¬†I know you did
ibogaine like even before me. ¬†I’ve seen you
around, you live in North
Beach n shit, to the best of my recollection I’ve
only met you a coupla
times with MS and Wild Bill before he OD’d, and
just thought you were
another disgruntled ibogaine didn’t fix my whole
entire life person…

I’ve grown to realize you’re just disgruntled
period.

Thanks. You could have saved me 7 years of therapy
there. Yes, I’m
disgruntled. My life isn’t what I had in mind.

But joo b clean.(?)

I b clean.

Let me help you. ¬†Gimme the Rolls you b drivin’,
get a Honda, and if your
life isn’t making you super-happy, then close the
strip clubs you own,
donate the strippers to a charity or church that
doesn’t have any
strippers and needs them, and go get a job.

Want to trade lives? No you don’t have a Rolls,
you’ve injected about 15 of
them so far. you’re driving a mercedes or a acura I
don’t know what it was,
didnt look. You’re not living under a bridge or in
some burnt out building
in the bronx like you have before. I’m close to 60,
you’re close to 30. You
have a very interesting life, mine is something I’m
caught in. If you don’t
go back to heroin you’re only going to have a more
interesting life, you’re
very smart, you have talent, you have everything
going for you.

I do therapy, I do groups. I’ve quit meds and joined
a gym. You do nothing
but give all these people the finger as often as you
can. And you are clean.

I have a lot of regrets. And a Rolls a condo and
some clubs.

When do you want to trade?

-ETS-

_________________________________________________________________
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http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

__________________________________________________
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http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 20, 2002 at 9:50:00 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi Carrie, well I was just agreeing with Patrick.¬† I didn’t mean ALL wealthy people; thought that was obvious.¬† Nor did I mean all poor people are more generous.¬† It’s a fact in fundraising, though, that more mid-to-little income people give money to causes they believe in than mid-to-upper do.¬†(of course, it’s less money, net, unlike income tax). ¬†Not trying to diss anyone, just adding some commentary.¬† Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: “eric seitz” <erictseitz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 9:30:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>

Jesus… ¬†You people are such a bunch of pussies. ¬†“I… Dr. Mash is gonna
breathe fire and then throw a lightning bolt at me <hiding>” ¬†Deborah’s a
sweetheart, youz guys are just … fogget it…

To you maybe. You both have the same guidebook to life, the one where it says normal communication involves screaming, yelling, smashing things, being psychotic. The only difference is you do psychedelics and can be a surprisingly decent person. She doesn’t and mostly isn’t, not to say she can’t be, she can, but not to most.

Do0d mahn, dog yo… ¬†Thanks a bunch. ¬†That’s the nicest thing you’ve ever
said to me <wiping tears>.

I know that whoever responded took me straightforward I was being half serious half not. You are an arrogant prick, you’re also a decent human being. Sorry to tell you that.

So, lemme ask… ¬†I’m curious. ¬†I know you did
ibogaine like even before me. ¬†I’ve seen you around, you live in North
Beach n shit, to the best of my recollection I’ve only met you a coupla
times with MS and Wild Bill before he OD’d, and just thought you were
another disgruntled ibogaine didn’t fix my whole entire life person…

I’ve grown to realize you’re just disgruntled period.

Thanks. You could have saved me 7 years of therapy there. Yes, I’m disgruntled. My life isn’t what I had in mind.

But joo b clean.(?)

I b clean.

Let me help you. ¬†Gimme the Rolls you b drivin’, get a Honda, and if your
life isn’t making you super-happy, then close the strip clubs you own,
donate the strippers to a charity or church that doesn’t have any
strippers and needs them, and go get a job.

Want to trade lives? No you don’t have a Rolls, you’ve injected about 15 of them so far. you’re driving a mercedes or a acura I don’t know what it was, didnt look. You’re not living under a bridge or in some burnt out building in the bronx like you have before. I’m close to 60, you’re close to 30. You have a very interesting life, mine is something I’m caught in. If you don’t go back to heroin you’re only going to have a more interesting life, you’re very smart, you have talent, you have everything going for you.

I do therapy, I do groups. I’ve quit meds and joined a gym. You do nothing but give all these people the finger as often as you can. And you are clean.

I have a lot of regrets. And a Rolls a condo and some clubs.

When do you want to trade?

-ETS-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 7:13:35 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 02:11:10PM -0700], [Ted Elliot] wrote:

| And that described everything that has anything to do
| with ibogaine. Not once have I read anyone say
| anything like it detoxed me without all this insanity.

It does detox you.  More effectively and faster than anything which has
yet been discovered.

| Ever thought maybe it belongs back in that jungle
| wherever it was found and whatever it’s doing is not
| beneficial.

So detox using another methadology, nobody is saying you need to do
ibogaine.

| From the sidelines I’d have to say that going to a
| meeting is a lot simpler and better then trying to
| figure out what any of you are doing or even talking

So, then, do that.

| about. I’ve done a lot of drugs but I guess some of
| you leave me in the dust because I haven’t broken my
| brain yet.

Keep trying.  Persistence pays.

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 7:09:00 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

http://www.12gauge.com/review_bar_subarton_marz.html

Yep, that’s the one, just up the street and around the corner, almost dead center between here and Dana’s.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: vector6@space.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple

Is this what you two are talking about? It sounds great! ūüôā Now I want to go there ūüôā .:vector:. http://www.12gauge.com/review_bar_subarton_marz.html http://newyork.citysearch.com/review/11350042/382786 http://www.time2shine.com/mars.html On Thu, 20 June 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote > > On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:11:52PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote: > > | Hey thanks Patrick. > | > | >If you believe with enough focus, a Rift in Time and Space > | may open right in the middle of the Mars bar,< > | > | Is this THE Mars Bar or A Mars bar candy bar? > > THE Mars Bar =) > > Welcome to hell, this is the waiting room. > > “Oh my god, that man is bleeding, there’s vomit on the floor, I am NOT > drinking out of this glass, I’m getting out of here. Why did you even > take me here, what’s wrong with you?” > > Ahhh… I miss Mars. > > P…..K
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 6:42:50 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Is this what you two are talking about? It sounds great! ūüôā Now I want to go there ūüôā .:vector:. http://www.12gauge.com/review_bar_subarton_marz.html http://newyork.citysearch.com/review/11350042/382786 http://www.time2shine.com/mars.html On Thu, 20 June 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote > > On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:11:52PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote: > > | Hey thanks Patrick. > | > | >If you believe with enough focus, a Rift in Time and Space > | may open right in the middle of the Mars bar,< > | > | Is this THE Mars Bar or A Mars bar candy bar? > > THE Mars Bar =) > > Welcome to hell, this is the waiting room. > > “Oh my god, that man is bleeding, there’s vomit on the floor, I am NOT > drinking out of this glass, I’m getting out of here. Why did you even > take me here, what’s wrong with you?” > > Ahhh… I miss Mars. > > P…..K
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 6:16:08 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:11:52PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| Hey thanks Patrick.
|
| >If you believe with enough focus, a Rift in Time and Space
| may open right in the middle of the Mars bar,<
|
| Is this THE Mars Bar or A Mars bar candy bar?

THE Mars Bar =)

Welcome to hell, this is the waiting room.

“Oh my god, that man is bleeding, there’s vomit on the floor, I am NOT
drinking out of this glass, I’m getting out of here. ¬†Why did you even
take me here, what’s wrong with you?”

Ahhh… ¬†I miss Mars.

P…..K

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 6:11:52 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hey thanks Patrick.

>If you believe with enough focus, a Rift in Time and Space
may open right in the middle of the Mars bar,<

Is this THE Mars Bar or A Mars bar candy bar?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 3:58 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Purple

On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 03:25:14PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| >What really works is resonating with Purple and letting it flow through
| you. <
|
| This is the second or third time I’ve seen this- what does this mean,
| the reference to Purple? I mean, I love the color, one of my very
| favorites, being royalty and all, but is there something else to this?
| Is this a Philip K Dick reference or something? Or a Patrick Kroupa
| original?

Laughing…¬† Yes, *I* invented the Purple Shit!(TM)(R)(C)(Patent Pending),
although Philip K. Dick is involved, because Valis is woven into the
strands of all reality.¬† Just ask Dana, he’ll tell you.

Lemme look…¬† <looking…>

Okay, HERE, The Whole Entire Truth (in its complete totality):

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 5:36:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com


All of this is just plain weird. And that described
most of you who post anything here.

… Not once have I read anyone say
anything like it detoxed me without all this insanity.

That may be because the ones who would say this don’t hang
out with all the weird psychedelic types on lists like this.
Would you? Maybe some are in NA meetings, but not making a
big deal of how an hallucinogen helped them clean up?

Bill Ross

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Doing things the Righteous Way, and more, at drugwar.com
Date: June 20, 2002 at 5:15:30 PM EDT
To: “rootsofteror” <rootsofterror@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <FreedomNewsNet@aol.com>, “CRRH” <restore@crrh.org>, “cia-drugs” <cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hello all,
Drug Czar John P. Walters¬†testified before a Senate appropriations committee on Wednesday,¬†and swore to continue rabidly¬†prosecuting the War on Some¬†Drugs and Users, especially marijuana. Walters also said that all the ONDCP anti-drug Media Campaign needs to succeed is more money and better pre-airing advertisement testing, which didn’t seem to sit too well with some of the Committee members, who have seen the ONDCP already burn through $1 billion in taxpayer money on this failed propaganda campaign. (see Doug McVay’s brief report, “Drug Czar John P. Walters Testifies to a Skeptical¬†Senate Committee”¬†at http://www.drugwar.com/pwalterstestilies.shtm)

This is not cheerful news, but in what may inspire some hope, we have printed an interview with Shawn Heller, the National Director of Students for Sensible Drug Policy. That this hard working young representative of the DARE generation is so firmly set against the War on Some Drugs, and actually doing a lot of something about it, along with countless others of his generation, does not speak well for the effectiveness of the prohibitionist propaganda and lies. Some might consider this to be very good news.

Doing Things the Righteous Way- An Interview With Shawn Heller
http://www.drugwar.com/pshellerinterview.shtm

We’ve also printed an editorial by Alan Crockett, co-founder of the Partnership for Responsible Drug Information, on the benefits we stand to reap if we could just¬†get the feds to lay off their war against¬†non-psychoactive industrial hemp.

An Open Letter to the American People- One Small Seed, On Small Tree for Humanity
http://www.drugwar.com/phempletter.shtm

Other stories, reports, and notices posted or linked to include but are not limited to-

Troops, Meth, and Off Roading in Thailand
Akha Weekly Journal
June 18, 2002
http://www.drugwar.com/akhajune18.shtm

CONFRONTING THE PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX- A Sandbox Event
http://www.drugwar.com/psandboxprison.shtm

Zone Defense
Drug-free school zones were supposed to keep dealers away from kids. But what happens when the zones engulf whole cities?
By John Gould- Washington Monthly
http://www.drugwar.com/pzonedefense.shtm

To access to following, (if hyperlinks do not work), please visit us at http://www.drugwar.com-

“Pathologizing” protest: An exploration of “conspiracy phobia” (June 20, 2002)
“…I was and continue to be viscerally astounded with the inordinate terror of “conspiracy theory” within mainstream, and yes, even progressive, media.” Read this well-argued editorial by Carolyn Baker for Online Journal.

Human Rights Watch Report- Children Are Collateral Casualties of N.Y. Drug Laws (June 20, 2002)
“Disproportionately harsh drug sentences have not only led to the unnecessary incarceration of tens of thousands of low-level drug offenders, but also deprived thousands of children of their parents,” said Jamie Fellner Director of the U.S. Program for Human Rights. Since 1980, 124,000 children in New York have lost a parent to prison because of the War on Some Drugs. Access the entire report, and related material here.

Peace,
Preston Peet
Editor in Chief http://www.drugwar.com
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
From: Rhafner77@cs.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 5:15:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

why are you even here then????

From: “Ted” <tedelliot@netlane.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 4:43:52 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That right there is the greatest summary of what is wrong with all this.

Hello? I am interested in getting off heroin. This entire list is full
of……………………………….very very smart people on
hallucinogens (which I hate). You could move all of you to a psych ward and
I don’t think there’s one doctor who would think any of you are normal.

What the hell is all that?

What the hell is all this. It’s weird people on drugs with high iq’s
talking metaphysics.

What does any of it have to do with addiction.

Mindvox is whatever it is. It’s weird. It’s a tribute to mental illness and
addiction taken to art.

All of this is just plain weird. And that described most of you who post
anything here.

And that described everything that has anything to do with ibogaine. Not
once have I read anyone say anything like it detoxed me without all this
insanity. Ever thought maybe it belongs back in that jungle wherever it was

From the sidelines I’d have to say that going to a meeting is a lot simpler
and better then trying to figure out what any of you are doing or even
talking about. I’ve done a lot of drugs but I guess some of you leave me in

_____________________________________________
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http://www.MyOwnEmail.com

From: Ted Elliot <tedelliot62@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 5:11:10 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I just wrote this from my email account and it’s not
going to the list. I am using my second account and
trying from there.

That right there is the greatest summary of what is
wrong with all this.

Hello? I am interested in getting off heroin. This
entire list is full
of……………………………….very very smart
people on hallucinogens (which I hate). You could move
all of you to a psych ward and I don’t think there’s
one doctor who would think any of you are normal.

What the hell is all that?

What the hell is all this. It’s weird people on drugs
with high iq’s talking metaphysics.

What does any of it have to do with addiction.

Mindvox is whatever it is. It’s weird. It’s a tribute
to mental illness and addiction taken to art.

All of this is just plain weird. And that described
most of you who post anything here.

And that described everything that has anything to do
with ibogaine. Not once have I read anyone say
anything like it detoxed me without all this insanity.
Ever thought maybe it belongs back in that jungle
wherever it was found and whatever it’s doing is not
beneficial.

From the sidelines I’d have to say that going to a
meeting is a lot simpler and better then trying to
figure out what any of you are doing or even talking
about. I’ve done a lot of drugs but I guess some of
you leave me in the dust because I haven’t broken my
brain yet.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Purple
Date: June 20, 2002 at 3:58:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 03:25:14PM -0400], [preston peet] wrote:

| >What really works is resonating with Purple and letting it flow through
| you. <
|
| This is the second or third time I’ve seen this- what does this mean,
| the reference to Purple? I mean, I love the color, one of my very
| favorites, being royalty and all, but is there something else to this?
| Is this a Philip K Dick reference or something? Or a Patrick Kroupa
| original?

Laughing… ¬†Yes, *I* invented the Purple Shit!(TM)(R)(C)(Patent Pending),
although Philip K. Dick is involved, because Valis is woven into the
strands of all reality. ¬†Just ask Dana, he’ll tell you.

Lemme look… ¬†<looking…>

Okay, HERE, The Whole Entire Truth (in its complete totality):

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 3:39:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 09:36:09AM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| Very interesting thoughts on the post-ibogaine maintenance. ¬†I’ve been
| musing on this issue myself over the past week or so.  What is it that
| makes it work for people after the experience, neurologically speaking.
| Seems as though it could be possible to get person off opiates without
| the withdrawal, then into the post-ibogaine glow, and possibly follow it
| up with some type of pharmacological therapy that, while not ibogaine,
| affects similar receptors and neurotransmitters.  I remember that the
| LSD and LSA afterglow would last for about a week or so for me when I
| was attempting to quit using.  I was fine for about a week or two, then
| would return to drug use.  Seems like, perhaps, some type of combination
| of serotonin affecting drugs, or low dose administration of a
| therapeutic level of LSD or LSA or one of the other scads of tryptamines
| could help a person maintain…cheaper than having to do ibogaine every

Yeah. ¬†LSD doesn’t do much to unspring you, but once unsprung, it’s one
beautiful spiritual integrator/headspace realignment tool.  MDMA,
immediately post-ibogaine is a super-bad idea… ¬†Chilling out for a while
and then using it, is pretty groovy.

| 6 months.  Sounds like for you, the anger and aspects of the rebellious
| nature work for you. That seems to be what has made things work for me.
| It got me into my addictive use, but it also got me out of it…I
| recreate myself at will, usually in rebellion against what someone says
| I can’t do, or that won’t work. ¬†Plus, there are just way too many

Dunno, I’m just wired in a way that if someone asks me for <whatever> I
will usually do whatever I can for them.  If someone tells me I must
<whatever> the answer will be along the lines of, fuck you, I would sooner
die than do anything *you* have decided I *must* do. ¬†Who the fuck’re you
to tell me what to do…

Aside from all that though… ¬†“Addiction Treatment” in general — whether
anyone tells me anything or not, which at this point is pretty irrelevent,
as nobody tries anymore — is somewhere around the stage of “okay, and now
we’re gonna attach leeches and the evil spirits will depart.” ¬†There isn’t
too much there.

The whole debate of brainwashing people in NA is valid. ¬†Yeah I won’t deal
with that, fuck you, if I wanted to be brainwashed I’d at least go find a
cult that I liked and thought was somewhat interesting, but ya know what,
I’m not a joining things kinda person, and I’m really not finding much of
any great value here, so perhaps I’ll just go start my own thing…

In general though, it’s not WHAT is being done, it’s the CONTENT of what
is being hammered into people subjected to the brainwashing.  Instead of
filling up their heads with a buncha shit, “you are diseased, powerless,
and flawed, forever n ever.” ¬†You could just as easily insert much better
paradigms and models of thought.

Just my opinion based on my own observations.

| I most definitely agree on the importance of dialogue. ¬†I don’t have
| all the answers. Neither do you, and neither does Peet.  Perhaps all of
| us carry around a piece of the puzzle.

Yup, absolutely.  Or, perhaps, all of us have the whole entire puzzle, all
done even, and we just like to pick up our favorite pieces and keep
playing with ’em.

Either one =)

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 3:25:14 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>What really works is resonating with Purple and letting it flow through
you. <

This is the second or third time I’ve seen this- what does this mean, the reference to Purple? I mean, I love the color, one of my very favorites, being royalty and all, but is there something else to this? Is this a Philip K Dick reference or something? Or a Patrick Kroupa original?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 09:48:26AM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| That’s an awesome truth hiding in there.¬† While I think that the
| standard NA rap and recovery works for the most, Patrick is clearly not
| your rigid, structured personality types.¬† Same here.¬† I don’t fit
| anyone’s mold…and I’m sure people often think I’m still doing drugs.
| For the non-SJ personality types, SJ approaches just aren’t going to
| work.  Most people tend to be conformists.  Non-conformists tend to do
| better when they figure out how to rebel against the system in ways that
| work for them.¬† It’s great to be an arrogant, prideful prick when your
| right…if it works, keep it up.¬† Just be sure to recognize when it
| doesn’t work so well anymore and new things need to be added in.¬† I’m
| one of the most arrogant pricks I know…but¬† I let go of the pride a
| long time ago, so now I can hear and consider what others are saying. Go
| Patrick!

Thanks.

Being an arrogant prideful prick — whut a neat collection of words all in
a row, one behind the other, sorta following up linear progression — is
okay.¬† But it won’t keep you clean.¬† If that’s all ya do, eventually, give
or take a few weeks, you’ll go down in flames.

This is why the love, which is the light, which are entheogens are such a
useful tool.¬† In order to stay alive, it’s necessary to self-destruct and
reconstruct, every month or two at least.¬† For me.¬† For now.¬† Although I’m
starting to have a really cool collection of other tools to blend into all
that and play with.

Whatever works.  For me that usually amounts to evolving and changing,
‘cuz what worked last month, might not be so great now.

What really works is resonating with Purple and letting it flow through
you.

z00m,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 3:15:12 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 09:48:26AM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| That’s an awesome truth hiding in there. ¬†While I think that the
| standard NA rap and recovery works for the most, Patrick is clearly not
| your rigid, structured personality types. ¬†Same here. ¬†I don’t fit
| anyone’s mold…and I’m sure people often think I’m still doing drugs.
| For the non-SJ personality types, SJ approaches just aren’t going to
| work.  Most people tend to be conformists.  Non-conformists tend to do
| better when they figure out how to rebel against the system in ways that
| work for them. ¬†It’s great to be an arrogant, prideful prick when your
| right…if it works, keep it up. ¬†Just be sure to recognize when it
| doesn’t work so well anymore and new things need to be added in. ¬†I’m
| one of the most arrogant pricks I know…but ¬†I let go of the pride a
| long time ago, so now I can hear and consider what others are saying. Go
| Patrick!

Thanks.

Being an arrogant prideful prick — whut a neat collection of words all in
a row, one behind the other, sorta following up linear progression — is
okay. ¬†But it won’t keep you clean. ¬†If that’s all ya do, eventually, give
or take a few weeks, you’ll go down in flames.

This is why the love, which is the light, which are entheogens are such a
useful tool. ¬†In order to stay alive, it’s necessary to self-destruct and
reconstruct, every month or two at least. ¬†For me. ¬†For now. ¬†Although I’m
starting to have a really cool collection of other tools to blend into all
that and play with.

Whatever works.  For me that usually amounts to evolving and changing,
‘cuz what worked last month, might not be so great now.

What really works is resonating with Purple and letting it flow through
you.

z00m,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 2:40:45 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 04:12:47AM +0000], [eric seitz] wrote:

| Kerry I think Patrick is speaking after ibogaine. If that’s true I wouldn’t
| say he’s wrong.

Yeah, that wuz post-ibo.

| Trying to figure out what makes Patrick him is not productive, I think
| everyone who ever met him gives him the afternoon clean at most. He keeps
| going. After 3 years almost I think I have gained respect if not great
| liking for Mr. Kroupa.
|
| The only puzzling thing that I can’t get through my head is how him and
| Mash can exist not only on the same planet but in the same place every day
| and not kill each other by now.

Jesus… ¬†You people are such a bunch of pussies. ¬†“I… Dr. Mash is gonna
breathe fire and then throw a lightning bolt at me <hiding>” ¬†Deborah’s a
sweetheart, youz guys are just … fogget it…

| Do people change? I haven’t seen that much, do you somehow have protective
| shielding, what is the story with that. It makes as much sense as the rest
| of your life.
|
| Keep on keeping on kid, you’re an arrogant little prick but you do scare
| the crap out of addictionologists, psychiatrists and detox doctors. That’s
| got to count for something.
|
| You did make it. That surprises me as much as anything. As you so often
| say, god loves fools.

Do0d mahn, dog yo… ¬†Thanks a bunch. ¬†That’s the nicest thing you’ve ever
said to me <wiping tears>. ¬†So, lemme ask… ¬†I’m curious. ¬†I know you did
ibogaine like even before me. ¬†I’ve seen you around, you live in North
Beach n shit, to the best of my recollection I’ve only met you a coupla
times with MS and Wild Bill before he OD’d, and just thought you were
another disgruntled ibogaine didn’t fix my whole entire life person…

I’ve grown to realize you’re just disgruntled period. ¬†But joo b clean.(?)

Let me help you. ¬†Gimme the Rolls you b drivin’, get a Honda, and if your
life isn’t making you super-happy, then close the strip clubs you own,
donate the strippers to a charity or church that doesn’t have any
strippers and needs them, and go get a job.

Just my advice.

Patrick

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] sugar
Date: June 20, 2002 at 11:03:28 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This just out:  Fat people, fast food junkies, and sugar addicts who are
10% over ideal body weight will soon be considered criminals of the
state due to the financial burden they bring upon taxpayers and the
HMO’s for their destructive lifestyle. ¬†Nancy Reagan is telling these
slobs to “just say no” to food. ¬†DEA agents will begin focusing their
efforts on eliminating the manufacture and dissemination of cholesterol,
fats, and processed sugars.  Refusal to conform to a healthy lifestyle
will result in incarceration, denigration, and ongoing discrimination.

As far as gateways…I hate the terminology…but in most cases, it
appears that the majority of Heroin addicts arrived upon the shores
after having gone thru a number of other substances first.  I think all
this really says is that people that use drugs like to get high and are
likely to use various drugs in approaching their goal.  I know lots of
people who have smoked pot, eaten pills, and dropped LSD without
travleing on toward the coast.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/20/02 10:45AM >>>
Sugar is a VERY horrible thing. <

If ever there were such a thing as a “gateway drug”, sugar would be my
nomination. But that would be buying into the gateway theory, which I
don’t.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

Thanks for sharing ūüôā ¬†Great input. ¬†I think my main point in all my
rambling is do whatever the hell works. ¬†I’ve seen people with the
same
dental problems…took care of their teeth, got on methadone, got a
bunch of cavities and teeth started falling out.  My experience has
been
that the overwhelming vast majority of them DID eat candy all day
long.
I’ve got a friend who’s a dentist. ¬†A lot of us that hang together,
as a
matter of course, use him as our dentist…when people started in on
the
breath mint thing, they all started getting tons of cavities and
losing
teeth.  Sugar is a VERY horrible thing.  I also have lots of clients
who
NEVER have any cavities or lose teeth…most of them don’t eat candy
and
sugar.  Just my personal experience. Same thing with weight
gain…some
do, some don’t. ¬†When clients go off methadone, seems like some
lose,
some don’t, and some actually gain weight. The sweating thing is
definitely pretty common.  Likewise, everybody is genetically
different,
so people experience differing levels and types of side-effects.  If
that’s the case, then it seems possible that in studies on
side-effects,
effects that are not statistically significant don’t make a blip on
the
radar.  Dunno.

Very interesting thoughts on the post-ibogaine maintenance. ¬†I’ve
been
musing on this issue myself over the past week or so.  What is it
that
makes it work for people after the experience, neurologically
speaking.
Seems as though it could be possible to get person off opiates
without
the withdrawal, then into the post-ibogaine glow, and possibly follow
it
up with some type of pharmacological therapy that, while not
ibogaine,
affects similar receptors and neurotransmitters.  I remember that
the
LSD and LSA afterglow would last for about a week or so for me when
I
was attempting to quit using.  I was fine for about a week or two,
then
would return to drug use.  Seems like, perhaps, some type of
combination
of serotonin affecting drugs, or low dose administration of a
therapeutic level of LSD or LSA or one of the other scads of
tryptamines
could help a person maintain…cheaper than having to do ibogaine
every
6 months.  Sounds like for you, the anger and aspects of the
rebellious
nature work for you. That seems to be what has made things work for
me.
It got me into my addictive use, but it also got me out of it…I
recreate myself at will, usually in rebellion against what someone
says
I can’t do, or that won’t work. ¬†Plus, there are just way too many
things I want to see, do, read, etc., that drug use to me is a waste
of
time…like watching television, or reading ONLY fiction…no real
significant value in terms of what I want out of life.

I most definitely agree on the importance of dialogue. ¬†I don’t have
all the answers. Neither do you, and neither does Peet.  Perhaps all
of
us carry around a piece of the puzzle.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

digital@phantom.com 06/19/02 05:24PM >>>
On [Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:13:43PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| >>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

| >Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget
the
| adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady
dealers?
| What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just
like
| methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot
of
| methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of
stress
| sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress,
just
| because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big
reasons
I
| grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit
a
| week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin
and
| methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over,
methadone
is
| much more toxic for a >human system, from what I’ve read.
|
| Very good points.  But are you talking here about legalizing
heroin,
or
| using it as an alternative for methadone?  As far as half-life and
| medication administration goes, Methadone wins. ¬†From what I’ve
read
of
| Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin
has
| fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment
modality.
| However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
| Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.” ¬†In terms of

Uhm, <raising hand> ¬†I’ve used heroin since the age of 14, injecting
since
my late teens… ¬†If I cut loose the problems that exist due to
prohibition and focus merely on the results of the molecule…
Heroin
is
much less harsh on your body than methadone. ¬†I’m pretty bored with
it,
so
I’m not gonna reprint my methadone rant yet again — much of which
was
based upon the clinics I was in — but I experienced an entire
series
of
negative side-effects from methadone (or Methadose(R)!) which NEVER
occured for me using ANY type of heroin (powder or tar).

From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities.  I had
money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems.
After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because
some
of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs!  woo hoo!).  I gained 35 pounds
which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point
it
all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2
weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there
is
white chalky crap all over my clothes… ¬†Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING.  Obviously they were doing me no good, and
chelating
agents are super-fine.

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree.  methadone is a buncha crap, that
generates a towering mountain of side-effects, that do not exist
under
heroin.

Yeah, everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit. ¬†The
universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting
healthier
and eating better now!  Your teeth are getting all fucked up,
because
people like sweets, and the fact it appears to take people who have
broken bones, 3-4 times the normal length of time to heal, is
completely
normal.

<bzzzz> ¬†Um… ¬†Sorry, that’s all a crock of shit.

This pertains to that Methadose crap, the It’s Just Like Tang! ¬†Add
Water
and look, it’s METHADONE! ¬†and whomever makes that shit which looks
like
lumpy glue suspended in spoiled milk and water… ¬†I dunno who makes
the
latter two, but they are highly popular at NYC methadone clinics.

Dolophine pills and the methadone wafers, did NOT produce any of
these
side-effects. ¬†I’m unsure how exactly they are modifying the
molecule,
I
haven’t ever pursued this. ¬†But there are significant differences
between
how these forms are metabolized.

| >On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very
interesting
| >that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
| >short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced
into
| >treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do
worse.
|
| Here are a few references to support my position.  The research on
| treatment coercion is not without a number of significant
problems,
| making the issue rather cloudy.  However, I do agree with your
statement
| that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.” ¬†The
| article I read most recently which gives my position stronger
support, I
| have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in
my
| little rat-hole of an office.  The references below, as a matter
of
| course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research
that
| supports the contrary.  I feel that the difficulties reside in
poor
| research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment
programming,
| and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation”
and
| “coercion.”

All the quoted research that appears below, is interesting.
However,
generally, people doing research have a THEORY. ¬†They often —
though
not
always — follow this up by making the facts bend around the theory,
and
display the “facts” in such a manner as to make the theory appear
valid,
sound, and correct.

Everything is just a point of view and “facts” only get in the way
of
things.

My point of view is everybody should be free to do whatever they
want.
The “drug problem” is created by the “war on drugs.” ¬†Some people
want
to
be on drugs and have no desire to stop.  <shrug>  God bless.

Lately I have actually been thinking a lot about “recovery,” or to
be
more
exact, how do you maintain post-ibogaine.  Much of this thinking is
the
result of being placed in a position where people who nobody else is
having any success with, are dumped on me. ¬†“Okay well, you told
everybody
to go fuck themselves, and you made it.  Here, this is another
version
of
you, do something with this, ‘cuz nobody else is having any luck.”

And what exactly do I tell people… ¬†If I process it, then general
overall concepts are consistent, and the single, absolute piece of
advice
I give, is pretty much always the same: don’t bang up heroin. ¬†This
has
a
100% success rate if you wanna stay off heroin.  <shrug>.

Everything else… ¬†I don’t think I’ve ever said exactly the same
thing
twice, ‘cuz everybody is different.

However… ¬†At nearly 3 years clean, and having been around, well,
MANY
drug dependent individuals who are trying to stay clean… ¬†And
looking
at
the long-term, overall results — NOT based upon anyone’s
proprietary
data
or research, merely speaking from my personal observations…

The conclusion I have arrived at, is that Timothy Leary’s neat
little
study, which I should look up again, but to paraphrase it: before
the
LSD,
turn on, tune in, drop out, phase, while he was still establishment
and
working at one of the more prestigious psychiatric hospitals, that
had
a
wonderful success rate with their patients, using all the most
advanced
techniques… ¬†He ran a study. ¬†Their incredible success rate using
<everything they could think of to throw at the patient> resulted in
1/3rd
of the clients getting better, 1/3rd staying the same, and 1/3rd
getting
worse… ¬†Which was like, wow, great n’ shit.

So Tim took a group of patients and basically, left them to their
own
devices, “do whatever the fuck you want.” ¬†And the outstanding
results
of
his study?

The breakdown was EXACTLY the same. 33% improved, 33% no change, 33%
worse. ¬†(throw some .3’s back there sumplace).

And… ¬†Person <A> does ibogaine, flies to the Vatican for an
excorcism,
lives with a tribe of pygmies eating ayahausca for 6 months gaining
spiritual insights, goes to therapy, groups, takes their medication,
develops new skills and coping techniques, learns to juggle, and
donates
money to needy orphans.

Person <B> does: not a fucking thing, except get back to their life
(presupposing they still have one).

WHO will be clean 2 years later…?

It would seem likely Person <A>.

But … it wouldn’t be correct.

Who will be clean?  Flip a coin.  Who the hell knows, maybe neither,
maybe
both, but there are so many variables in that equation it’s mind
blowing.
And NOTHING is black and white and obvious. ¬†Most — if not ALL —
of
it
amounts to: who and what YOU are, OTHER THAN drug dependent.

The rest of it is ’bout as scientific as throwing a shovel full of
shit
against the wall and seeing what sticks.

In other words: though I do not have empirical proof of this… ¬†I
strongly suspect that Timothy Leary’s neato little psychiatric
study,
could be applied to drug dependent individuals with exactly the same
results.

| http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf

| http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm

| -“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
| coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example,
Sells
and

| http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating

| http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Dunno, speaking for myself personally I *was* coerced into
“treatment”
repeatedly. ¬†And… ¬†It never did a fucking thing for me, except
fill
me
with the urge to smash people’s fucking heads in. ¬†Not a single
positive
change took place.

When things came together for me, was… ¬†In Thailand, where nobody
had
anything to sell me, tell me, or insist that I must do.  <shrug>
We’re
Buddhists mahn, the world goes on forever, it’s this endless cycle,
what
used to work doesn’t work anymore, because faith is gone, so if you
have
any input, please feel free to give it. ¬†What’re these 12 step
things
and
therapy? ¬†We’ve never heard of this, does any of it work?

Patrick

p.s., None of dis’ is directed at you mahn — Rick — in particular.
Being in your position, I would presume that if you care, the most
important thing you could possibly do, is listen to what people have
to
express. ¬†Because some — or even much — of it, may be extremely
valid.
Listening to someone, and actually hearing them, can be a very
rehumanizing experience.  For both parties =)

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] sugar
Date: June 20, 2002 at 10:45:45 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Sugar is a VERY horrible thing. <

If ever there were such a thing as a “gateway drug”, sugar would be my nomination. But that would be buying into the gateway theory, which I don’t.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

Thanks for sharing ūüôā¬† Great input.¬† I think my main point in all my
rambling is do whatever the hell works.¬† I’ve seen people with the same
dental problems…took care of their teeth, got on methadone, got a
bunch of cavities and teeth started falling out.  My experience has been
that the overwhelming vast majority of them DID eat candy all day long.
I’ve got a friend who’s a dentist.¬† A lot of us that hang together, as a
matter of course, use him as our dentist…when people started in on the
breath mint thing, they all started getting tons of cavities and losing
teeth.  Sugar is a VERY horrible thing.  I also have lots of clients who
NEVER have any cavities or lose teeth…most of them don’t eat candy and
sugar.¬† Just my personal experience. Same thing with weight gain…some
do, some don’t.¬† When clients go off methadone, seems like some lose,
some don’t, and some actually gain weight. The sweating thing is
definitely pretty common.  Likewise, everybody is genetically different,
so people experience differing levels and types of side-effects.  If
that’s the case, then it seems possible that in studies on side-effects,
effects that are not statistically significant don’t make a blip on the
radar.  Dunno.

Very interesting thoughts on the post-ibogaine maintenance.¬† I’ve been
musing on this issue myself over the past week or so.  What is it that
makes it work for people after the experience, neurologically speaking.
Seems as though it could be possible to get person off opiates without
the withdrawal, then into the post-ibogaine glow, and possibly follow it
up with some type of pharmacological therapy that, while not ibogaine,
affects similar receptors and neurotransmitters.  I remember that the
LSD and LSA afterglow would last for about a week or so for me when I
was attempting to quit using.  I was fine for about a week or two, then
would return to drug use.  Seems like, perhaps, some type of combination
of serotonin affecting drugs, or low dose administration of a
therapeutic level of LSD or LSA or one of the other scads of tryptamines
could help a person maintain…cheaper than having to do ibogaine every
6 months.  Sounds like for you, the anger and aspects of the rebellious
nature work for you. That seems to be what has made things work for me.
It got me into my addictive use, but it also got me out of it…I
recreate myself at will, usually in rebellion against what someone says
I can’t do, or that won’t work.¬† Plus, there are just way too many
things I want to see, do, read, etc., that drug use to me is a waste of
time…like watching television, or reading ONLY fiction…no real
significant value in terms of what I want out of life.

I most definitely agree on the importance of dialogue.¬† I don’t have
all the answers. Neither do you, and neither does Peet.  Perhaps all of
us carry around a piece of the puzzle.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

>>> digital@phantom.com 06/19/02 05:24PM >>>
On [Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:13:43PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| >>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

| >Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
| adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady
dealers?
| What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
| methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
| methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of
stress
| sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
| because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons
I
| grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
| week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
| methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone
is
| much more toxic for a >human system, from what I’ve read.
|
| Very good points.  But are you talking here about legalizing heroin,
or
| using it as an alternative for methadone?  As far as half-life and
| medication administration goes, Methadone wins.¬† From what I’ve read
of
| Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin
has
| fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment
modality.
| However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
| Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.”¬† In terms of

Uhm, <raising hand>¬† I’ve used heroin since the age of 14, injecting
since
my late teens…¬† If I cut loose the problems that exist due to
prohibition and focus merely on the results of the molecule…¬† Heroin
is
much less harsh on your body than methadone.¬† I’m pretty bored with it,
so
I’m not gonna reprint my methadone rant yet again — much of which was
based upon the clinics I was in — but I experienced an entire series
of
negative side-effects from methadone (or Methadose(R)!) which NEVER
occured for me using ANY type of heroin (powder or tar).

From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities.  I had money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems.
After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because some
of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs!  woo hoo!).  I gained 35 pounds which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point it
all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2
weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there is
white chalky crap all over my clothes…¬† Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING.  Obviously they were doing me no good, and chelating
agents are super-fine.

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree.  methadone is a buncha crap, that
generates a towering mountain of side-effects, that do not exist under
heroin.

Yeah, everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit.¬† The
universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting
healthier
and eating better now!  Your teeth are getting all fucked up, because
people like sweets, and the fact it appears to take people who have
broken bones, 3-4 times the normal length of time to heal, is
completely
normal.

<bzzzz>¬† Um…¬† Sorry, that’s all a crock of shit.

This pertains to that Methadose crap, the It’s Just Like Tang!¬† Add
Water
and look, it’s METHADONE!¬† and whomever makes that shit which looks
like
lumpy glue suspended in spoiled milk and water…¬† I dunno who makes
the
latter two, but they are highly popular at NYC methadone clinics.

Dolophine pills and the methadone wafers, did NOT produce any of these
side-effects.¬† I’m unsure how exactly they are modifying the molecule,
I
haven’t ever pursued this.¬† But there are significant differences
between
how these forms are metabolized.

| >On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very
interesting
| >that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
| >short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced
into
| >treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
|
| Here are a few references to support my position.  The research on
| treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
| making the issue rather cloudy.  However, I do agree with your
statement
| that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.”¬† The
| article I read most recently which gives my position stronger
support, I
| have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
| little rat-hole of an office.  The references below, as a matter of
| course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research
that
| supports the contrary.  I feel that the difficulties reside in poor
| research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment
programming,
| and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
| “coercion.”

All the quoted research that appears below, is interesting.  However,
generally, people doing research have a THEORY.¬† They often — though
not
always — follow this up by making the facts bend around the theory,
and
display the “facts” in such a manner as to make the theory appear
valid,
sound, and correct.

Everything is just a point of view and “facts” only get in the way of
things.

My point of view is everybody should be free to do whatever they want.
The “drug problem” is created by the “war on drugs.”¬† Some people want
to
be on drugs and have no desire to stop.  <shrug>  God bless.

Lately I have actually been thinking a lot about “recovery,” or to be
more
exact, how do you maintain post-ibogaine.  Much of this thinking is
the
result of being placed in a position where people who nobody else is
having any success with, are dumped on me.¬† “Okay well, you told
everybody
to go fuck themselves, and you made it.  Here, this is another version
of
you, do something with this, ‘cuz nobody else is having any luck.”

And what exactly do I tell people…¬† If I process it, then general
overall concepts are consistent, and the single, absolute piece of
advice
I give, is pretty much always the same: don’t bang up heroin.¬† This has
a
100% success rate if you wanna stay off heroin.  <shrug>.

Everything else…¬† I don’t think I’ve ever said exactly the same
thing
twice, ‘cuz everybody is different.

However…¬† At nearly 3 years clean, and having been around, well,
MANY
drug dependent individuals who are trying to stay clean…¬† And looking
at
the long-term, overall results — NOT based upon anyone’s proprietary
data
or research, merely speaking from my personal observations…

The conclusion I have arrived at, is that Timothy Leary’s neat little
study, which I should look up again, but to paraphrase it: before the
LSD,
turn on, tune in, drop out, phase, while he was still establishment
and
working at one of the more prestigious psychiatric hospitals, that had
a
wonderful success rate with their patients, using all the most
advanced
techniques…¬† He ran a study.¬† Their incredible success rate using
<everything they could think of to throw at the patient> resulted in
1/3rd
of the clients getting better, 1/3rd staying the same, and 1/3rd
getting
worse…¬† Which was like, wow, great n’ shit.

So Tim took a group of patients and basically, left them to their own
devices, “do whatever the fuck you want.”¬† And the outstanding results
of
his study?

The breakdown was EXACTLY the same. 33% improved, 33% no change, 33%
worse.¬† (throw some .3’s back there sumplace).

And…¬† Person <A> does ibogaine, flies to the Vatican for an
excorcism,
lives with a tribe of pygmies eating ayahausca for 6 months gaining
spiritual insights, goes to therapy, groups, takes their medication,
develops new skills and coping techniques, learns to juggle, and
donates
money to needy orphans.

Person <B> does: not a fucking thing, except get back to their life
(presupposing they still have one).

WHO will be clean 2 years later…?

It would seem likely Person <A>.

But … it wouldn’t be correct.

Who will be clean?  Flip a coin.  Who the hell knows, maybe neither,
maybe
both, but there are so many variables in that equation it’s mind
blowing.
And NOTHING is black and white and obvious.¬† Most — if not ALL — of
it
amounts to: who and what YOU are, OTHER THAN drug dependent.

The rest of it is ’bout as scientific as throwing a shovel full of
shit
against the wall and seeing what sticks.

In other words: though I do not have empirical proof of this…¬† I
strongly suspect that Timothy Leary’s neato little psychiatric study,
could be applied to drug dependent individuals with exactly the same
results.

| http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf

| http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm

| -“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
| coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells
and

| http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating

| http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Dunno, speaking for myself personally I *was* coerced into “treatment”
repeatedly.¬† And…¬† It never did a fucking thing for me, except fill
me
with the urge to smash people’s fucking heads in.¬† Not a single
positive
change took place.

When things came together for me, was…¬† In Thailand, where nobody
had
anything to sell me, tell me, or insist that I must do.  <shrug>
We’re
Buddhists mahn, the world goes on forever, it’s this endless cycle,
what
used to work doesn’t work anymore, because faith is gone, so if you
have
any input, please feel free to give it.¬† What’re these 12 step things
and
therapy?¬† We’ve never heard of this, does any of it work?

Patrick

p.s., None of dis’ is directed at you mahn — Rick — in particular.
Being in your position, I would presume that if you care, the most
important thing you could possibly do, is listen to what people have
to
express.¬† Because some — or even much — of it, may be extremely
valid.
Listening to someone, and actually hearing them, can be a very
rehumanizing experience.  For both parties =)

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 9:48:26 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

That’s an awesome truth hiding in there. ¬†While I think that the
standard NA rap and recovery works for the most, Patrick is clearly not
your rigid, structured personality types. ¬†Same here. ¬†I don’t fit
anyone’s mold…and I’m sure people often think I’m still doing drugs.
For the non-SJ personality types, SJ approaches just aren’t going to
work.  Most people tend to be conformists.  Non-conformists tend to do
better when they figure out how to rebel against the system in ways that
work for them. ¬†It’s great to be an arrogant, prideful prick when your
right…if it works, keep it up. ¬†Just be sure to recognize when it
doesn’t work so well anymore and new things need to be added in. ¬†I’m
one of the most arrogant pricks I know…butReceived: from hnncsb-MTA by mail.hnncsb I let go of the pride a
long time ago, so now I can hear and consider what others are saying. Go
Patrick!

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

erictseitz@hotmail.com 06/20/02 12:12AM >>>

Kerry I think Patrick is speaking after ibogaine. If that’s true I
wouldn’t
say he’s wrong.

Trying to figure out what makes Patrick him is not productive, I think

everyone who ever met him gives him the afternoon clean at most. He
keeps
going. After 3 years almost I think I have gained respect if not great

liking for Mr. Kroupa.

The only puzzling thing that I can’t get through my head is how him and
Mash
can exist not only on the same planet but in the same place every day
and
not kill each other by now.

Do people change? I haven’t seen that much, do you somehow have
protective
shielding, what is the story with that. It makes as much sense as the
rest
of your life.

Keep on keeping on kid, you’re an arrogant little prick but you do
scare the
crap out of addictionologists, psychiatrists and detox doctors. That’s
got
to count for something.

You did make it. That surprises me as much as anything. As you so often
say,
god loves fools.

-ETS-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 9:36:09 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for sharing ūüôā ¬†Great input. ¬†I think my main point in all my
rambling is do whatever the hell works. ¬†I’ve seen people with the same
dental problems…took care of their teeth, got on methadone, got a
bunch of cavities and teeth started falling out.  My experience has been
that the overwhelming vast majority of them DID eat candy all day long.
I’ve got a friend who’s a dentist. ¬†A lot of us that hang together, as a
matter of course, use him as our dentist…when people started in on the
breath mint thing, they all started getting tons of cavities and losing
teeth.  Sugar is a VERY horrible thing.  I also have lots of clients who
NEVER have any cavities or lose teeth…most of them don’t eat candy and
sugar. ¬†Just my personal experience. Same thing with weight gain…some
do, some don’t. ¬†When clients go off methadone, seems like some lose,
some don’t, and some actually gain weight. The sweating thing is
definitely pretty common.  Likewise, everybody is genetically different,
so people experience differing levels and types of side-effects.  If
that’s the case, then it seems possible that in studies on side-effects,
effects that are not statistically significant don’t make a blip on the
radar.  Dunno.

Very interesting thoughts on the post-ibogaine maintenance. ¬†I’ve been
musing on this issue myself over the past week or so.  What is it that
makes it work for people after the experience, neurologically speaking.
Seems as though it could be possible to get person off opiates without
the withdrawal, then into the post-ibogaine glow, and possibly follow it
up with some type of pharmacological therapy that, while not ibogaine,
affects similar receptors and neurotransmitters.  I remember that the
LSD and LSA afterglow would last for about a week or so for me when I
was attempting to quit using.  I was fine for about a week or two, then
would return to drug use.  Seems like, perhaps, some type of combination
of serotonin affecting drugs, or low dose administration of a
therapeutic level of LSD or LSA or one of the other scads of tryptamines
could help a person maintain…cheaper than having to do ibogaine every
6 months.  Sounds like for you, the anger and aspects of the rebellious
nature work for you. That seems to be what has made things work for me.
It got me into my addictive use, but it also got me out of it…I
recreate myself at will, usually in rebellion against what someone says
I can’t do, or that won’t work. ¬†Plus, there are just way too many
things I want to see, do, read, etc., that drug use to me is a waste of
time…like watching television, or reading ONLY fiction…no real
significant value in terms of what I want out of life.

I most definitely agree on the importance of dialogue. ¬†I don’t have
all the answers. Neither do you, and neither does Peet.  Perhaps all of
us carry around a piece of the puzzle.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

digital@phantom.com 06/19/02 05:24PM >>>
On [Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:13:43PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| >>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

| >Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
| adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady
dealers?
| What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
| methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
| methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of
stress
| sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
| because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons
I
| grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
| week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
| methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone
is
| much more toxic for a >human system, from what I’ve read.
|
| Very good points.  But are you talking here about legalizing heroin,
or
| using it as an alternative for methadone?  As far as half-life and
| medication administration goes, Methadone wins. ¬†From what I’ve read
of
| Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin
has
| fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment
modality.
| However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
| Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.” ¬†In terms of

Uhm, <raising hand> ¬†I’ve used heroin since the age of 14, injecting
since
my late teens… ¬†If I cut loose the problems that exist due to
prohibition and focus merely on the results of the molecule… ¬†Heroin
is
much less harsh on your body than methadone. ¬†I’m pretty bored with it,
so
I’m not gonna reprint my methadone rant yet again — much of which was
based upon the clinics I was in — but I experienced an entire series
of
negative side-effects from methadone (or Methadose(R)!) which NEVER
occured for me using ANY type of heroin (powder or tar).

From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities.  I had money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems.
After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because some
of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs!  woo hoo!).  I gained 35 pounds which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point it
all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2
weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there is
white chalky crap all over my clothes… ¬†Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING.  Obviously they were doing me no good, and chelating
agents are super-fine.

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree.  methadone is a buncha crap, that
generates a towering mountain of side-effects, that do not exist under
heroin.

Yeah, everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit. ¬†The
universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting
healthier
and eating better now!  Your teeth are getting all fucked up, because
people like sweets, and the fact it appears to take people who have
broken bones, 3-4 times the normal length of time to heal, is
completely
normal.

<bzzzz> ¬†Um… ¬†Sorry, that’s all a crock of shit.

This pertains to that Methadose crap, the It’s Just Like Tang! ¬†Add
Water
and look, it’s METHADONE! ¬†and whomever makes that shit which looks
like
lumpy glue suspended in spoiled milk and water… ¬†I dunno who makes
the
latter two, but they are highly popular at NYC methadone clinics.

Dolophine pills and the methadone wafers, did NOT produce any of these
side-effects. ¬†I’m unsure how exactly they are modifying the molecule,
I
haven’t ever pursued this. ¬†But there are significant differences
between
how these forms are metabolized.

| >On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very
interesting
| >that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
| >short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced
into
| >treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
|
| Here are a few references to support my position.  The research on
| treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
| making the issue rather cloudy.  However, I do agree with your
statement
| that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.” ¬†The
| article I read most recently which gives my position stronger
support, I
| have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
| little rat-hole of an office.  The references below, as a matter of
| course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research
that
| supports the contrary.  I feel that the difficulties reside in poor
| research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment
programming,
| and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
| “coercion.”

All the quoted research that appears below, is interesting.  However,
generally, people doing research have a THEORY. ¬†They often — though
not
always — follow this up by making the facts bend around the theory,
and
display the “facts” in such a manner as to make the theory appear
valid,
sound, and correct.

Everything is just a point of view and “facts” only get in the way of
things.

My point of view is everybody should be free to do whatever they want.
The “drug problem” is created by the “war on drugs.” ¬†Some people want
to
be on drugs and have no desire to stop.  <shrug>  God bless.

Lately I have actually been thinking a lot about “recovery,” or to be
more
exact, how do you maintain post-ibogaine.  Much of this thinking is
the
result of being placed in a position where people who nobody else is
having any success with, are dumped on me. ¬†“Okay well, you told
everybody
to go fuck themselves, and you made it.  Here, this is another version
of
you, do something with this, ‘cuz nobody else is having any luck.”

And what exactly do I tell people… ¬†If I process it, then general
overall concepts are consistent, and the single, absolute piece of
advice
I give, is pretty much always the same: don’t bang up heroin. ¬†This has
a
100% success rate if you wanna stay off heroin.  <shrug>.

Everything else… ¬†I don’t think I’ve ever said exactly the same
thing
twice, ‘cuz everybody is different.

However… ¬†At nearly 3 years clean, and having been around, well,
MANY
drug dependent individuals who are trying to stay clean… ¬†And looking
at
the long-term, overall results — NOT based upon anyone’s proprietary
data
or research, merely speaking from my personal observations…

The conclusion I have arrived at, is that Timothy Leary’s neat little
study, which I should look up again, but to paraphrase it: before the
LSD,
turn on, tune in, drop out, phase, while he was still establishment
and
working at one of the more prestigious psychiatric hospitals, that had
a
wonderful success rate with their patients, using all the most
advanced
techniques… ¬†He ran a study. ¬†Their incredible success rate using
<everything they could think of to throw at the patient> resulted in
1/3rd
of the clients getting better, 1/3rd staying the same, and 1/3rd
getting
worse… ¬†Which was like, wow, great n’ shit.

So Tim took a group of patients and basically, left them to their own
devices, “do whatever the fuck you want.” ¬†And the outstanding results
of
his study?

The breakdown was EXACTLY the same. 33% improved, 33% no change, 33%
worse. ¬†(throw some .3’s back there sumplace).

And… ¬†Person <A> does ibogaine, flies to the Vatican for an
excorcism,
lives with a tribe of pygmies eating ayahausca for 6 months gaining
spiritual insights, goes to therapy, groups, takes their medication,
develops new skills and coping techniques, learns to juggle, and
donates
money to needy orphans.

Person <B> does: not a fucking thing, except get back to their life
(presupposing they still have one).

WHO will be clean 2 years later…?

It would seem likely Person <A>.

But … it wouldn’t be correct.

Who will be clean?  Flip a coin.  Who the hell knows, maybe neither,
maybe
both, but there are so many variables in that equation it’s mind
blowing.
And NOTHING is black and white and obvious. ¬†Most — if not ALL — of
it
amounts to: who and what YOU are, OTHER THAN drug dependent.

The rest of it is ’bout as scientific as throwing a shovel full of
shit
against the wall and seeing what sticks.

In other words: though I do not have empirical proof of this… ¬†I
strongly suspect that Timothy Leary’s neato little psychiatric study,
could be applied to drug dependent individuals with exactly the same
results.

| http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf

| http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm

| -“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
| coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells
and

| http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating

| http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Dunno, speaking for myself personally I *was* coerced into “treatment”
repeatedly. ¬†And… ¬†It never did a fucking thing for me, except fill
me
with the urge to smash people’s fucking heads in. ¬†Not a single
positive
change took place.

When things came together for me, was… ¬†In Thailand, where nobody
had
anything to sell me, tell me, or insist that I must do.  <shrug>
We’re
Buddhists mahn, the world goes on forever, it’s this endless cycle,
what
used to work doesn’t work anymore, because faith is gone, so if you
have
any input, please feel free to give it. ¬†What’re these 12 step things
and
therapy? ¬†We’ve never heard of this, does any of it work?

Patrick

p.s., None of dis’ is directed at you mahn — Rick — in particular.
Being in your position, I would presume that if you care, the most
important thing you could possibly do, is listen to what people have
to
express. ¬†Because some — or even much — of it, may be extremely
valid.
Listening to someone, and actually hearing them, can be a very
rehumanizing experience.  For both parties =)

From: “eric seitz” <erictseitz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 20, 2002 at 12:12:47 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Kerry I think Patrick is speaking after ibogaine. If that’s true I wouldn’t say he’s wrong.

Trying to figure out what makes Patrick him is not productive, I think everyone who ever met him gives him the afternoon clean at most. He keeps going. After 3 years almost I think I have gained respect if not great liking for Mr. Kroupa.

The only puzzling thing that I can’t get through my head is how him and Mash can exist not only on the same planet but in the same place every day and not kill each other by now.

Do people change? I haven’t seen that much, do you somehow have protective shielding, what is the story with that. It makes as much sense as the rest of your life.

Keep on keeping on kid, you’re an arrogant little prick but you do scare the crap out of addictionologists, psychiatrists and detox doctors. That’s got to count for something.

You did make it. That surprises me as much as anything. As you so often say, god loves fools.

-ETS-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

From: lhutcherson <lhutcherson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 19, 2002 at 10:30:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I AM REQUESTING AN UNSUBCRIBE TO THIS LIST BUT B4 I LEAVE LET ME TELL ALL OF
U SOMETHING ABOUT METHADONE- very bad stuff (so is heroin for that matter
though).  Methadone MASKS all kinds of illnesses that one may have.  Only
when for some reason you go without it 4 a few days does an illness (if you
have one) comes down on you.  Many times it has been there festering so
long, you nearly die.  Case in point: Along with myself, I have personally
met 4 people who did not know they had a horrible illness called
osteomellitis (sp)?  This is a bone infection that usually pops up in your
spine.  Mine did.  But I was fortunate, I was not permanently paralyzed nor
did I need back surgery like the others.  As it was, vancomycin (sp)? one of
the STRONGEST antibiotics out, saved my life.  Only a few years ago, this
disease was always fatal.!  So beware, you could be walking around with all
kind of stuff wrong with you and not even know it!  BEWARE!!!!
Peace,
Linda Kay
Ps. By the way, I found the answer FINALLY to ALL of this “drug crap”- I
found God! ¬†You can too…U ain’t here on your own, ya know!
—– Original Message —–
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers?
What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress
sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I
grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is
much more toxic for a >human system, from what I’ve read.

Very good points.  But are you talking here about legalizing heroin, or
using it as an alternative for methadone?  As far as half-life and
medication administration goes, Methadone wins. ¬†From what I’ve read of
Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin has
fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment modality.
However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.” ¬†In terms of
dropping off quickly, the length and perceived severity are worse due to
the longer half-life.  This goes back to the issue of using the
medication as prescribed. The actual side-effects themselves don’t
appear to be all that bad.  I have no problem with Heroin Maintenance
Therapy, I think we should give it a go.  Likewise with Ibogaine,
Buprenex, Buprenorphine, URD, etc.   Whateve5r it takes to reduce the
problems related to the destruction of addictive use.  The studies I
have reviewed re: heroin support its use in suitably equipped outpatient
clinics.  I doubt that simple legalization, however, would solve much.

On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very interesting
that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.

Here are a few references to support my position.  The research on
treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
making the issue rather cloudy.  However, I do agree with your statement
that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.” ¬†The
article I read most recently which gives my position stronger support, I
have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
little rat-hole of an office.  The references below, as a matter of
course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research that
supports the contrary.  I feel that the difficulties reside in poor
research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment programming,
and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
“coercion.”

http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf
-“provides overall support forthe dictum that legally referred clients
do as well or better than voluntary clients in and aftertreatment.
However, our review also reveals some divergence in findings which we
consider equally illuminating. We propose that the majority of the
variation in coerced treatment outcomesis due to (1) inconsistent
terminologies for referral status, (2) neglected emphasis on
internalmotivation, and (3) infidelity in program implementation.”

http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm
-“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells and
Simpson (1976) and Simpson and Friend (1988) examined the effect of
contact with the criminal justice system at treatment admission on the
length of stay in treatment and on the performance of clients during and
after treatment. They found that those entering treatment with some
legal involvement functioned as well as those who entered voluntarily. A
number of other studies also report that legal pressure increases
admission rates into treatment programs and promotes treatment
retention.”

http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating
-“Research has shown that combining criminal justice sanctions with
drug treatment can be effective in decreasing drug use and related
crime. Individuals under legal coercion tend to stay in treatment for a
longer period of time and do as well as or better than others not under
legal pressure. Often, drug abusers come into contact with the criminal
justice system earlier than other health or social systems, and
intervention by the criminal justice system to engage the individual in
treatment may help interrupt and shorten a career of drug use. Treatment
for the criminal justice-involved drug abuser or drug addict may be
delivered prior to, during, after, or in lieu of incarceration.”

http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Likewise:
Berkowitz G; Brindis C; Clayson Z; Peterson S. Options for Recovery:
Promoting success among women mandated to treatment. Journal of
Psychoactive Drugs 28(1): 31-38, 1996. (17 refs.)
-“In recent years imprisonment has been used increasingly for a wide
range of nonviolent and petty offenses committed by women. Among
incarcerated women, particularly those who are pregnant or parenting,
substance use and its deleterious consequences are often exacerbated by
imprisonment. Women who have been identified as chemically dependent are
also at high risk for losing custody of their children. In California,
the Options for Recovery (OFR) treatment program provided an alternative
to incarceration or relinquishment of custody of children for chemically
dependent pregnant and parenting women. This three-year pilot project
offered alcohol and other drug abuse treatment and case management to
these women, and included special training and recruitment of foster
parents for their children. Findings from a three-year, multimethod
evaluation study showed that women who were mandated to OFR treatment
programs were more likely to successfully complete treatment than women
who had enrolled in OFR voluntarily. An economic analysis of the costs
associated with women in OFR compared with the combined costs of
incarceration and alcohol and other drug abuse treatment produced a
ratio in favor of OFR. Additionally, some innovative service
alternatives for women mandated to treatment were developed during the
project. The impact of such changes have implications for improving
women’s and family health. Copyright 1996, Haight-Ashbury Publications”

Also:
Mathias, R.  Correctional Treatment Helps Offenders Stay Drug and
Arrest Free. NIDA Notes (NN0026: 60-62.

What about all the alcoholics who respond positively to treatment, do
you suppose they’d do better if jailing them were used as a threat, or
do you think it might cause even more >unneeded problems for those poor
saps?

Both/and…I think some would probably do better and some would likely
do worse.  I think the research indicates that treatment works.  It
indicates that length of treatment and involvement in counseling and
12-step programs increases treatment effectiveness (E.g., NIDA Notes
V.14, #5).  It appears that coercing people into treatment works as
well.  In the long-term, however, reading between the lines and
deciphering the data would seem to indicate that motivation needs to
shift from external motivation to primarily an internal motivation for
long-term sobtriety to take place.  None of the foregoing should be
understood as an argument that it is MORALLY right to force people into
treatment for a recognized medical problem.

Do you think alcohol use should be treated differently than other
drugs people are treated for using? (A point Maia makes quite eloquently
in the article Dana just posted the other >day.)

…that’s a huge question, with not enough space to fully respond. ¬†My
simple answer is No, not really…complicated by the flipside that all
people are different, genetically, psychologically, etc. and that one
drug is chemically different than another…so Yes, they should be
treated differently. ¬†I don’t think a cookie-cutter approach is the most
effective approach. ¬†Methadone works? Great. ¬†Can’t seem to play by the
clinic rules? Let’s give Ibo a whirl. ¬†Hmmm…no money, no access?
Let’s give the cold-turkey a shot and load you up with NA/God/Synagogue.
Have you checked out URD? Buprenex? Putting on white robes and getting
dropped off with a few hundred gallons of water and a bunch of food in
the middle of the desert? ¬†…whatever the hell we can figure out to
do…legal or illegal…to make life manageable…all the while, making
sure they are clear on who is responsible for making the choices that
make things better or worse.  One quarter, One life, No time extensions,
and No replay…what does it mean for YOU to win? ¬†Don’t think drugs are
a problem? Fine. Use. If things get bad enough, at least consider the
possibility of being wrong.  Get busted?  Lobby. Protest. Change the
laws. Be a martyr…and sit in jail as the rules require. ¬†If that’s how
winning is defined for you…great.

I can personally vouch for the fact that jail is not healthy or fun,
nor did spending time inside ever keep me from wanting to get high. When
the judge first mandated me into >treatment, I thought it was a far
better choice than a trip through jail. Not by any means do I support
incarceration for any drug offense (which I hadn’t been charged with at
that >time, anyway), but treatment at that point wasn’t better for me.

Jail isn’t supposed to be fun ūüôā ¬†It’s designed to keep the dangerous
drug users off the streets…as opposed to rapists, murderers, and
molesters. ¬†I pretty much agree, but not with your qualifier “any drug
offense.”

This is getting too long…so I’ll just shut up now. ¬†Thanks for the
links. I’ll check them out.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 19, 2002 at 7:32:49 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities.  I had money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems.  After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because some of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs!  woo hoo!).  I gained 35 pounds which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point it all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2 weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there is
white chalky crap all over my clothes…¬† Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING.  Obviously they were doing me no good, and chelating
agents are super-fine. <

Hmmm, ditto on the teeth, and ditto on the chalky white sweat, a remarkably similar story here. I mean, almost down the exact numbers of cavities, holes I never had while on the streets, banging away speedballs all day and night long, days and sleepless night on end. I had maybe one sore spot, no gaping holes.
After methadone, I’ve had to have major reconstruction, replacement, and long way to go to get the rest of my disaster area of a mouth fixed. And I have good dental hygiene habits too.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

On [Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:13:43PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| >>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

| >Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
| adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers?
| What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
| methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
| methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress
| sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
| because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I
| grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
| week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
| methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is
| much more toxic for a >human system, >from what I’ve read.
|
| Very good points.  But are you talking here about legalizing heroin, or
| using it as an alternative for methadone?  As far as half-life and
| medication administration goes, Methadone wins.¬† From what I’ve read of
| Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin has
| fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment modality.
| However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
| Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.”¬† In terms of

Uhm, <raising hand>¬† I’ve used heroin since the age of 14, injecting since
my late teens…¬† If I cut loose the problems that exist due to
prohibition and focus merely on the results of the molecule…¬† Heroin is
much less harsh on your body than methadone.¬† I’m pretty bored with it, so
I’m not gonna reprint my methadone rant yet again — much of which was
based upon the clinics I was in — but I experienced an entire series of
negative side-effects from methadone (or Methadose(R)!) which NEVER
occured for me using ANY type of heroin (powder or tar).

From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities.  I had money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems.  After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because some of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs!  woo hoo!).  I gained 35 pounds which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point it all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2 weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there is
white chalky crap all over my clothes…¬† Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING.  Obviously they were doing me no good, and chelating
agents are super-fine.

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree.  methadone is a buncha crap, that
generates a towering mountain of side-effects, that do not exist under
heroin.

Yeah, everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit.¬† The universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting healthier
and eating better now!  Your teeth are getting all fucked up, because
people like sweets, and the fact it appears to take people who have
broken bones, 3-4 times the normal length of time to heal, is completely
normal.

<bzzzz>¬† Um…¬† Sorry, that’s all a crock of shit.

This pertains to that Methadose crap, the It’s Just Like Tang!¬† Add Water
and look, it’s METHADONE!¬† and whomever makes that shit which looks like
lumpy glue suspended in spoiled milk and water…¬† I dunno who makes the
latter two, but they are highly popular at NYC methadone clinics.

Dolophine pills and the methadone wafers, did NOT produce any of these
side-effects.¬† I’m unsure how exactly they are modifying the molecule, I
haven’t ever pursued this.¬† But there are significant differences between
how these forms are metabolized.

| >On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very interesting
| >that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
| >short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
| >treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
|
| Here are a few references to support my position.  The research on
| treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
| making the issue rather cloudy.  However, I do agree with your statement
| that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.”¬† The
| article I read most recently which gives my position stronger support, I
| have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
| little rat-hole of an office.  The references below, as a matter of
| course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research that
| supports the contrary.  I feel that the difficulties reside in poor
| research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment programming,
| and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
| “coercion.”

All the quoted research that appears below, is interesting.  However,
generally, people doing research have a THEORY.¬† They often — though not
always — follow this up by making the facts bend around the theory, and
display the “facts” in such a manner as to make the theory appear valid,
sound, and correct.

Everything is just a point of view and “facts” only get in the way of
things.

My point of view is everybody should be free to do whatever they want.
The “drug problem” is created by the “war on drugs.”¬† Some people want to
be on drugs and have no desire to stop.  <shrug>  God bless.

Lately I have actually been thinking a lot about “recovery,” or to be more
exact, how do you maintain post-ibogaine.  Much of this thinking is the
result of being placed in a position where people who nobody else is
having any success with, are dumped on me.¬† “Okay well, you told everybody
to go fuck themselves, and you made it.  Here, this is another version of
you, do something with this, ‘cuz nobody else is having any luck.”

And what exactly do I tell people…¬† If I process it, then general
overall concepts are consistent, and the single, absolute piece of advice
I give, is pretty much always the same: don’t bang up heroin.¬† This has a
100% success rate if you wanna stay off heroin.  <shrug>.

Everything else…¬† I don’t think I’ve ever said exactly the same thing
twice, ‘cuz everybody is different.

However…¬† At nearly 3 years clean, and having been around, well, MANY
drug dependent individuals who are trying to stay clean…¬† And looking at
the long-term, overall results — NOT based upon anyone’s proprietary data
or research, merely speaking from my personal observations…

The conclusion I have arrived at, is that Timothy Leary’s neat little
study, which I should look up again, but to paraphrase it: before the LSD,
turn on, tune in, drop out, phase, while he was still establishment and
working at one of the more prestigious psychiatric hospitals, that had a
wonderful success rate with their patients, using all the most advanced
techniques…¬† He ran a study.¬† Their incredible success rate using
<everything they could think of to throw at the patient> resulted in 1/3rd
of the clients getting better, 1/3rd staying the same, and 1/3rd getting
worse…¬† Which was like, wow, great n’ shit.

So Tim took a group of patients and basically, left them to their own
devices, “do whatever the fuck you want.”¬† And the outstanding results of
his study?

The breakdown was EXACTLY the same. 33% improved, 33% no change, 33%
worse.¬† (throw some .3’s back there sumplace).

And…¬† Person <A> does ibogaine, flies to the Vatican for an excorcism,
lives with a tribe of pygmies eating ayahausca for 6 months gaining
spiritual insights, goes to therapy, groups, takes their medication,
develops new skills and coping techniques, learns to juggle, and donates
money to needy orphans.

Person <B> does: not a fucking thing, except get back to their life
(presupposing they still have one).

WHO will be clean 2 years later…?

It would seem likely Person <A>.

But … it wouldn’t be correct.

Who will be clean?  Flip a coin.  Who the hell knows, maybe neither, maybe
both, but there are so many variables in that equation it’s mind blowing.
And NOTHING is black and white and obvious.¬† Most — if not ALL — of it
amounts to: who and what YOU are, OTHER THAN drug dependent.

The rest of it is ’bout as scientific as throwing a shovel full of shit
against the wall and seeing what sticks.

In other words: though I do not have empirical proof of this…¬† I
strongly suspect that Timothy Leary’s neato little psychiatric study,
could be applied to drug dependent individuals with exactly the same
results.

| http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf

| http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm

| -“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
| coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells and

| http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating

| http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Dunno, speaking for myself personally I *was* coerced into “treatment”
repeatedly.¬† And…¬† It never did a fucking thing for me, except fill me
with the urge to smash people’s fucking heads in.¬† Not a single positive
change took place.

When things came together for me, was…¬† In Thailand, where nobody had
anything to sell me, tell me, or insist that I must do.¬† <shrug>¬† We’re
Buddhists mahn, the world goes on forever, it’s this endless cycle, what
used to work doesn’t work anymore, because faith is gone, so if you have
any input, please feel free to give it.¬† What’re these 12 step things and
therapy?¬† We’ve never heard of this, does any of it work?

Patrick

p.s., None of dis’ is directed at you mahn — Rick — in particular.
Being in your position, I would presume that if you care, the most
important thing you could possibly do, is listen to what people have to
express.¬† Because some — or even much — of it, may be extremely valid.
Listening to someone, and actually hearing them, can be a very
rehumanizing experience.  For both parties =)

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] political graphics and images
Date: June 19, 2002 at 7:16:14 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

An exhibit of Dutch and US graphics and images used to promote ibogaine by
its advocates is now on view in the Ibogaine Dossier Art Gallery.  A link to
the Dutch pirate radio station that promoted the counterculture use of this
experimental antiaddictive medication is also included.

Howard

www.ibogaine.org/polgraph.html

or

www.ibogaine.desk.nl/polgraph.html

From: Kerry Dawson <kdawsonais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 19, 2002 at 6:28:40 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I signed up for this list after reading some of your ibogaine articles and addiction pieces. My first thought was that you are an exception and every system has those. After joining this list I find more then a few exceptions which makes me question some of the work I do.
I don’t want to make anyone hate me but part of what I do is stage interventions on people at the request of their families or employers.
Patrick you’re speaking after ibogaine for those observations? Pre ibogaine I would think the success would be much lower then that. Because on this one I’d side with Rick and against you and Preston, coercion can and does work. Maybe not for you, either of you. I don’t know too much about Preston except what he writes here, he’s obviously a intelligent person much as yourself. To throw in 2 more cents without even trying to touch psychological motivation, you’re an alpha male with at least some antisocial tendency ūüėČ whose response is to attack anything and anyone who you feel is trying to control you.
You have excellent observations. What you have written about recovery after ibogaine is high quality. But as you yourself said, I’m unsure that your exact roadmap would work for too many other people. Whatever you brought to the table other then your heroin addiction, doesn’t look like it’s there with most of the clients I have worked with. Therapy, groups and yes medication, give some of them a better chance of developing what isn’t there, then just being let loose.
What you and Preston might feel is harming you or harassing you, are techniques that I would say help the majority. Not everyone and evidently not either of you.
I have no concept at all of after ibogaine, so maybe you are right. But saying people should be left alone to drown is not something I can agree with.
Kerry Dawson, AIS, CAP, MAC

“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:13:43PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| >>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

| >Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
| adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers?
| What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
| methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
| methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress
| sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
| because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I
| grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
| week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
| methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is
| much more toxic for a >human system, from what I’ve read.
|
| Very good points. But are you talking here about legalizing heroin, or
| using it as an alternative for methadone? As far as half-life and
| medication administration goes, Methadone wins. From what I’ve read of
| Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin has
| fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment modality.
| However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
| Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.” In terms of

Uhm, I’ve used heroin since the age of 14, injecting since
my late teens… If I cut loose the problems that exist due to
prohibition and focus merely on the results of the molecule… Heroin is
much less harsh on your body than methadone. I’m pretty bored with it, so
I’m not gonna reprint my methadone rant yet again — much of which was
based upon the clinics I was in — but I experienced an entire series of
negative side-effects from methadone (or Methadose(R)!) which NEVER
occured for me using ANY type of heroin (powder or tar).

From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities. I had money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems. After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because some of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs! woo hoo!). I gained 35 pounds which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point it all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2 weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there is
white chalky crap all over my clothes… Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING. Obviously they were doing me no good, and chelating
agents are super-fine.

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree. methadone is a buncha crap, that
generates a towering mountain of side-effects, that do not exist under
heroin.

Yeah, everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit. The universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting healthier
and eating better now! Your teeth are getting all fucked up, because
people like sweets, and the fact it appears to take people who have
broken bones, 3-4 times the normal length of time to heal, is completely
normal.

Um… Sorry, that’s all a crock of shit.

This pertains to that Methadose crap, the It’s Just Like Tang! Add Water
and look, it’s METHADONE! and whomever makes that shit which looks like
lumpy glue suspended in spoiled milk and water… I dunno who makes the
latter two, but they are highly popular at NYC methadone clinics.

Dolophine pills and the methadone wafers, did NOT produce any of these
side-effects. I’m unsure how exactly they are modifying the molecule, I
haven’t ever pursued this. But there are significant differences between
how these forms are metabolized.

| >On one hand I completely agree. On the other, it is very interesting
| >that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
| >short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
| >treatment. Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
|
| Here are a few references to support my position. The research on
| treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
| making the issue rather cloudy. However, I do agree with your statement
| that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.” The
| article I read most recently which gives my position stronger support, I
| have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
| little rat-hole of an office. The references below, as a matter of
| course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research that
| supports the contrary. I feel that the difficulties reside in poor
| research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment programming,
| and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
| “coercion.”

All the quoted research that appears below, is interesting. However,
generally, people doing research have a THEORY. They often — though not
always — follow this up by making the facts bend around the theory, and
display the “facts” in such a manner as to make the theory appear valid,
sound, and correct.

Everything is just a point of view and “facts” only get in the way of
things.

My point of view is everybody should be free to do whatever they want.
The “drug problem” is created by the “war on drugs.” Some people want to
be on drugs and have no desire to stop. God bless.

Lately I have actually been thinking a lot about “recovery,” or to be more
exact, how do you maintain post-ibogaine. Much of this thinking is the
result of being placed in a position where people who nobody else is
having any success with, are dumped on me. “Okay well, you told everybody
to go fuck themselves, and you made it. Here, this is another version of
you, do something with this, ‘cuz nobody else is having any luck.”

And what exactly do I tell people… If I process it, then general
overall concepts are consistent, and the single, absolute piece of advice
I give, is pretty much always the same: don’t bang up heroin. This has a
100% success rate if you wanna stay off heroin. .

Everything else… I don’t think I’ve ever said exactly the same thing
twice, ‘cuz everybody is different.

However… At nearly 3 years clean, and having been around, well, MANY
drug dependent individuals who are trying to stay clean… And looking at
the long-term, overall results — NOT based upon anyone’s proprietary data
or research, merely speaking from my personal observations…

The conclusion I have arrived at, is that Timothy Leary’s neat little
study, which I should look up again, but to paraphrase it: before the LSD,
turn on, tune in, drop out, phase, while he was still establishment and
working at one of the more prestigious psychiatric hospitals, that had a
wonderful success rate with their patients, using all the most advanced
techniques… He ran a study. Their incredible success rate using
resulted in 1/3rd
of the clients getting better, 1/3rd staying the same, and 1/3rd getting
worse… Which was like, wow, great n’ shit.

So Tim took a group of patients and basically, left them to their own
devices, “do whatever the fuck you want.” And the outstanding results of
his study?

The breakdown was EXACTLY the same. 33% improved, 33% no change, 33%
worse. (throw some .3’s back there sumplace).

And… Person does ibogaine, flies to the Vatican for an excorcism,
lives with a tribe of pygmies eating ayahausca for 6 months gaining
spiritual insights, goes to therapy, groups, takes their medication,
develops new skills and coping techniques, learns to juggle, and donates
money to needy orphans.

Person does: not a fucking thing, except get back to their life
(presupposing they still have one).

WHO will be clean 2 years later…?

It would seem likely Person .

But … it wouldn’t be correct.

Who will be clean? Flip a coin. Who the hell knows, maybe neither, maybe
both, but there are so many variables in that equation it’s mind blowing.
And NOTHING is black and white and obvious. Most — if not ALL — of it
amounts to: who and what YOU are, OTHER THAN drug dependent.

The rest of it is ’bout as scientific as throwing a shovel full of shit
against the wall and seeing what sticks.

In other words: though I do not have empirical proof of this… I
strongly suspect that Timothy Leary’s neato little psychiatric study,
could be applied to drug dependent individuals with exactly the same
results.

| http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf

| http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm

| -“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
| coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells and

| http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating

| http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Dunno, speaking for myself personally I *was* coerced into “treatment”
repeatedly. And… It never did a fucking thing for me, except fill me
with the urge to smash people’s fucking heads in. Not a single positive
change took place.

When things came together for me, was… In Thailand, where nobody had
anything to sell me, tell me, or insist that I must do. We’re
Buddhists mahn, the world goes on forever, it’s this endless cycle, what
used to work doesn’t work anymore, because faith is gone, so if you have
any input, please feel free to give it. What’re these 12 step things and
therapy? We’ve never heard of this, does any of it work?

Patrick

p.s., None of dis’ is directed at you mahn — Rick — in particular.
Being in your position, I would presume that if you care, the most
important thing you could possibly do, is listen to what people have to
express. Because some — or even much — of it, may be extremely valid.
Listening to someone, and actually hearing them, can be a very
rehumanizing experience. For both parties =)
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 19, 2002 at 5:24:24 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:13:43PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| >>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

| >Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
| adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers?
| What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
| methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
| methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress
| sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
| because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I
| grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
| week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
| methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is
| much more toxic for a >human system, from what I’ve read.
|
| Very good points.  But are you talking here about legalizing heroin, or
| using it as an alternative for methadone?  As far as half-life and
| medication administration goes, Methadone wins. ¬†From what I’ve read of
| Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin has
| fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment modality.
| However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
| Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.” ¬†In terms of

Uhm, <raising hand> ¬†I’ve used heroin since the age of 14, injecting since
my late teens… ¬†If I cut loose the problems that exist due to
prohibition and focus merely on the results of the molecule… ¬†Heroin is
much less harsh on your body than methadone. ¬†I’m pretty bored with it, so
I’m not gonna reprint my methadone rant yet again — much of which was
based upon the clinics I was in — but I experienced an entire series of
negative side-effects from methadone (or Methadose(R)!) which NEVER
occured for me using ANY type of heroin (powder or tar).

From childhood until methadone I had 2, maybe 3 cavities.  I had money
during that phase of being strung-out, saw dentists, no problems.  After a
little over 1.5 years on methadone I wound up with 17 cavities…
Remarkable coincidence (well no, it was down to 14 or 15, because some of
those teeth went buh-bye and huLlO to BRAND NEW, no more titanium,
bio-compatible synthetic teefs!  woo hoo!).  I gained 35 pounds which
never, ever, went away — until I got off methadone at which point it all
magically vanished, after I took a piss which lasted for roughly 2 weeks.
Every time I’d sweat it’s like, what the fuck is this shit… there is
white chalky crap all over my clothes… ¬†Ahhh, okay, those are the
minerals LEAVING.  Obviously they were doing me no good, and chelating
agents are super-fine.

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree.  methadone is a buncha crap, that
generates a towering mountain of side-effects, that do not exist under
heroin.

Yeah, everybody who is on MMTP complains ’bout this shit. ¬†The universal
answer given, being: you’ve gained weight because you’re getting healthier
and eating better now!  Your teeth are getting all fucked up, because
people like sweets, and the fact it appears to take people who have
broken bones, 3-4 times the normal length of time to heal, is completely
normal.

<bzzzz> ¬†Um… ¬†Sorry, that’s all a crock of shit.

This pertains to that Methadose crap, the It’s Just Like Tang! ¬†Add Water
and look, it’s METHADONE! ¬†and whomever makes that shit which looks like
lumpy glue suspended in spoiled milk and water… ¬†I dunno who makes the
latter two, but they are highly popular at NYC methadone clinics.

Dolophine pills and the methadone wafers, did NOT produce any of these
side-effects. ¬†I’m unsure how exactly they are modifying the molecule, I
haven’t ever pursued this. ¬†But there are significant differences between
how these forms are metabolized.

| >On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very interesting
| >that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
| >short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
| >treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
|
| Here are a few references to support my position.  The research on
| treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
| making the issue rather cloudy.  However, I do agree with your statement
| that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.” ¬†The
| article I read most recently which gives my position stronger support, I
| have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
| little rat-hole of an office.  The references below, as a matter of
| course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research that
| supports the contrary.  I feel that the difficulties reside in poor
| research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment programming,
| and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
| “coercion.”

All the quoted research that appears below, is interesting.  However,
generally, people doing research have a THEORY. ¬†They often — though not
always — follow this up by making the facts bend around the theory, and
display the “facts” in such a manner as to make the theory appear valid,
sound, and correct.

Everything is just a point of view and “facts” only get in the way of
things.

My point of view is everybody should be free to do whatever they want.
The “drug problem” is created by the “war on drugs.” ¬†Some people want to
be on drugs and have no desire to stop.  <shrug>  God bless.

Lately I have actually been thinking a lot about “recovery,” or to be more
exact, how do you maintain post-ibogaine.  Much of this thinking is the
result of being placed in a position where people who nobody else is
having any success with, are dumped on me. ¬†“Okay well, you told everybody
to go fuck themselves, and you made it.  Here, this is another version of
you, do something with this, ‘cuz nobody else is having any luck.”

And what exactly do I tell people… ¬†If I process it, then general
overall concepts are consistent, and the single, absolute piece of advice
I give, is pretty much always the same: don’t bang up heroin. ¬†This has a
100% success rate if you wanna stay off heroin.  <shrug>.

Everything else… ¬†I don’t think I’ve ever said exactly the same thing
twice, ‘cuz everybody is different.

However… ¬†At nearly 3 years clean, and having been around, well, MANY
drug dependent individuals who are trying to stay clean… ¬†And looking at
the long-term, overall results — NOT based upon anyone’s proprietary data
or research, merely speaking from my personal observations…

The conclusion I have arrived at, is that Timothy Leary’s neat little
study, which I should look up again, but to paraphrase it: before the LSD,
turn on, tune in, drop out, phase, while he was still establishment and
working at one of the more prestigious psychiatric hospitals, that had a
wonderful success rate with their patients, using all the most advanced
techniques… ¬†He ran a study. ¬†Their incredible success rate using
<everything they could think of to throw at the patient> resulted in 1/3rd
of the clients getting better, 1/3rd staying the same, and 1/3rd getting
worse… ¬†Which was like, wow, great n’ shit.

So Tim took a group of patients and basically, left them to their own
devices, “do whatever the fuck you want.” ¬†And the outstanding results of
his study?

The breakdown was EXACTLY the same. 33% improved, 33% no change, 33%
worse. ¬†(throw some .3’s back there sumplace).

And… ¬†Person <A> does ibogaine, flies to the Vatican for an excorcism,
lives with a tribe of pygmies eating ayahausca for 6 months gaining
spiritual insights, goes to therapy, groups, takes their medication,
develops new skills and coping techniques, learns to juggle, and donates
money to needy orphans.

Person <B> does: not a fucking thing, except get back to their life
(presupposing they still have one).

WHO will be clean 2 years later…?

It would seem likely Person <A>.

But … it wouldn’t be correct.

Who will be clean?  Flip a coin.  Who the hell knows, maybe neither, maybe
both, but there are so many variables in that equation it’s mind blowing.
And NOTHING is black and white and obvious. ¬†Most — if not ALL — of it
amounts to: who and what YOU are, OTHER THAN drug dependent.

The rest of it is ’bout as scientific as throwing a shovel full of shit
against the wall and seeing what sticks.

In other words: though I do not have empirical proof of this… ¬†I
strongly suspect that Timothy Leary’s neato little psychiatric study,
could be applied to drug dependent individuals with exactly the same
results.

| http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf

| http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm

| -“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
| coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells and

| http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating

| http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Dunno, speaking for myself personally I *was* coerced into “treatment”
repeatedly. ¬†And… ¬†It never did a fucking thing for me, except fill me
with the urge to smash people’s fucking heads in. ¬†Not a single positive
change took place.

When things came together for me, was… ¬†In Thailand, where nobody had
anything to sell me, tell me, or insist that I must do. ¬†<shrug> ¬†We’re
Buddhists mahn, the world goes on forever, it’s this endless cycle, what
used to work doesn’t work anymore, because faith is gone, so if you have
any input, please feel free to give it. ¬†What’re these 12 step things and
therapy? ¬†We’ve never heard of this, does any of it work?

Patrick

p.s., None of dis’ is directed at you mahn — Rick — in particular.
Being in your position, I would presume that if you care, the most
important thing you could possibly do, is listen to what people have to
express. ¬†Because some — or even much — of it, may be extremely valid.
Listening to someone, and actually hearing them, can be a very
rehumanizing experience.  For both parties =)

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 19, 2002 at 3:55:28 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

I’m not sure I agree with that. Your message was a
little skewed to give automatic guilt to people who
are part of society in America? Or did I misread you?
Patrick I think was making a joke or being half
serious, but saying some under developed country is
superior to our way of thinking because they want to
help those who have experienced major tragedy is
unfair. From what little I’ve read there is all kinds
of support that arrived from all over the country to
people in NY. All kinds of medical equipment was
brought out to help people, people donated blood, but
none of it went anywhere because there weren’t any
survivors coming out of all that.

Saying “I feel only people who are wealthy (by world
standards) have this need to shut out everything and
everyone else in order to hold onto their “space.”
Jane” is just making a category and trying to push
people into it. I’ve met incredibly nice people who
were poor and wealthy, with all different backgrounds
and I haven’t ever seen only one kind of person coming
from either background.

I think a bunch of people on this list are from NYC.
What is it like there right now? Has everyone
forgotten about it and life gone back to normal or are
there major changes?

-carrie

— Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com> wrote:

“Perhaps it’s Just Me, but thus far it has
been my life’s experience that people in general do
not care about issues
which are not directly effecting THEIR lives.  Be
that drug addiction,
treatment, or those wacked out towel-heads living in
weird countries
nobody has ever heard of, someplace on the other
side of the planet.  What
the fuck is their problem anyway…?”

Yes, I agree.  But I saw this news item, where an
African attending college in the eastern U.S. went
home for the summer or whatever, and told the people
about 9/11, and the tribe got together and decided
to give several cows to the people of NYC>  Now,
that’s sort of heart-wrenching, as these people are
way poor by our standards, and yet to them this is
the obvious thing to do.  I had a friend in west
Oakland, really poor neighborhood, mostly blacks and
minimally employed  hispanics, and she explained to
me once, “this is the kind of neighborhood where,
when ya see someone who’s homeless, obviously in
trouble of some kind, you don’t call the cops, you
give them ¬†a sandwich….” ¬†I feel only people who
are wealthy (by world standards) have this need to
shut out everything and everyone else in order to
hold onto their “space.” ¬†Jane

———————————
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__________________________________________________
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http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Blowing off steam
Date: June 19, 2002 at 3:51:40 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for the positive. ¬†An update: Patient #1…a small
victory…can’t have his TH’s back, BUT…he can “coordinate services”
sign releases, etc., and get a hair follicle test done at his own
expense to verify his innocence. ¬†Wonder if he’ll be reimbursed if it
comes back negative??   Of course, it may come back negative and I could
hear…”Well, it stands anyway…blah, blah, blah…” ¬†Patient #2 paid
the $$$ for his GCMS and we await the results.  Small victories over
time = major paradigm shifts.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

carrierollins@yahoo.com 06/19/02 03:43PM >>>

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
This is the ridiculous kind of crap that needs to
end.  To make a long
story short:
1.  A few months ago, we switched to oral drug
testing.
2.  After a large number of confirmed false
positives (via LCMS
retesting), we decided to go back to urine testing.
3.  To use up the supply of oral tests, the nurses
still do them on a
semi-regular basis.

My gripes:
4. ¬†Patient #1…not enough to retest the sample.
The positive stands.
Never mind that he’s been drug-free for 3-4 years.
Sorry about you
losing them take-homes, buddy, and screwing with
your work schedule.
5. ¬†Patient #2…the LCMS comes back a confirmed
NEGATIVE.  Well, it
doesn’t matter…”he got a urine screen a day or two
later that was
positive” as well. ¬†So I kindly reply, “when he
comes in,  remind him he
can do GCMS confirmation if he wishes.” ¬†The
response? ¬†“Why
bother…he’s obviously dirty.” ¬†After a lengthy
explanation…”I still
don’t know why he’d want to waste his money?”
Hello!!!  Pretty scary.

I could go on.  I never cease to be amazed at the
sheer idiocy that can
goes on. ¬†Guess I get to “fight the good fight”
again in our staff
meeting this week.

At least the people who are going to the clinic where
you work have someone there who does care. Even if
things could be a lot better I think it’s great that
somebody is on their side and at least trying to see
things in some sane way!

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Blowing off steam
Date: June 19, 2002 at 3:43:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
This is the ridiculous kind of crap that needs to
end.  To make a long
story short:
1.  A few months ago, we switched to oral drug
testing.
2.  After a large number of confirmed false
positives (via LCMS
retesting), we decided to go back to urine testing.
3.  To use up the supply of oral tests, the nurses
still do them on a
semi-regular basis.

My gripes:
4. ¬†Patient #1…not enough to retest the sample.
The positive stands.
Never mind that he’s been drug-free for 3-4 years.
Sorry about you
losing them take-homes, buddy, and screwing with
your work schedule.
5. ¬†Patient #2…the LCMS comes back a confirmed
NEGATIVE.  Well, it
doesn’t matter…”he got a urine screen a day or two
later that was
positive” as well. ¬†So I kindly reply, “when he
comes in,  remind him he
can do GCMS confirmation if he wishes.” ¬†The
response? ¬†“Why
bother…he’s obviously dirty.” ¬†After a lengthy
explanation…”I still
don’t know why he’d want to waste his money?”
Hello!!!  Pretty scary.

I could go on.  I never cease to be amazed at the
sheer idiocy that can
goes on. ¬†Guess I get to “fight the good fight”
again in our staff
meeting this week.

At least the people who are going to the clinic where
you work have someone there who does care. Even if
things could be a lot better I think it’s great that
somebody is on their side and at least trying to see
things in some sane way!

-carrie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 19, 2002 at 1:13:43 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 01:42PM >>>

Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the
adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers?
What if you didn’t have to worry about the >?adulterants? Just like
methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of
methadone from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress
sometimes >for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress, just
because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I
grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with >just one visit a
week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and
methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is
much more toxic for a >human system, from what I’ve read.

Very good points.  But are you talking here about legalizing heroin, or
using it as an alternative for methadone?  As far as half-life and
medication administration goes, Methadone wins. ¬†From what I’ve read of
Heroin Maintenance Treatment, as well as anecdotal reports, Heroin has
fewer side-effects when compared to methadone in a treatment modality.
However, comparing these side-effects, I would hardly characterize
Methadone as “more vicious” or “harsh to the body.” ¬†In terms of
dropping off quickly, the length and perceived severity are worse due to
the longer half-life.  This goes back to the issue of using the
medication as prescribed. The actual side-effects themselves don’t
appear to be all that bad.  I have no problem with Heroin Maintenance
Therapy, I think we should give it a go.  Likewise with Ibogaine,
Buprenex, Buprenorphine, URD, etc.   Whateve5r it takes to reduce the
problems related to the destruction of addictive use.  The studies I
have reviewed re: heroin support its use in suitably equipped outpatient
clinics.  I doubt that simple legalization, however, would solve much.

On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very interesting
that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.

Here are a few references to support my position.  The research on
treatment coercion is not without a number of significant problems,
making the issue rather cloudy.  However, I do agree with your statement
that “drug free is not always the best answer for everyone.” ¬†The
article I read most recently which gives my position stronger support, I
have been unable to locate, but I will continue to look for it in my
little rat-hole of an office.  The references below, as a matter of
course, support my contention and I am well aware of the research that
supports the contrary.  I feel that the difficulties reside in poor
research models, terminology issues, variances in treatment programming,
and a failure to adequately address the concepts of “motivation” and
“coercion.”

http://www.ncjrs.org/ondcppubs/treat/consensus/anglin.pdf
-“provides overall support forthe dictum that legally referred clients
do as well or better than voluntary clients in and aftertreatment.
However, our review also reveals some divergence in findings which we
consider equally illuminating. We propose that the majority of the
variation in coerced treatment outcomesis due to (1) inconsistent
terminologies for referral status, (2) neglected emphasis on
internalmotivation, and (3) infidelity in program implementation.”

http://www.health.org/govpubs/bkd165/17e.htm
-“Advocates of coerced treatment also cite empirical evidence that
coercion does not impair treatment effectiveness. For example, Sells and
Simpson (1976) and Simpson and Friend (1988) examined the effect of
contact with the criminal justice system at treatment admission on the
length of stay in treatment and on the performance of clients during and
after treatment. They found that those entering treatment with some
legal involvement functioned as well as those who entered voluntarily. A
number of other studies also report that legal pressure increases
admission rates into treatment programs and promotes treatment
retention.”

http://www.drugabuse.gov/PODAT/PODAT9.html#Treating
-“Research has shown that combining criminal justice sanctions with
drug treatment can be effective in decreasing drug use and related
crime. Individuals under legal coercion tend to stay in treatment for a
longer period of time and do as well as or better than others not under
legal pressure. Often, drug abusers come into contact with the criminal
justice system earlier than other health or social systems, and
intervention by the criminal justice system to engage the individual in
treatment may help interrupt and shorten a career of drug use. Treatment
for the criminal justice-involved drug abuser or drug addict may be
delivered prior to, during, after, or in lieu of incarceration.”

http://journal.med.edu/v.2_n.1/issues/issues.htm

Likewise:
Berkowitz G; Brindis C; Clayson Z; Peterson S. Options for Recovery:
Promoting success among women mandated to treatment. Journal of
Psychoactive Drugs 28(1): 31-38, 1996. (17 refs.)
-“In recent years imprisonment has been used increasingly for a wide
range of nonviolent and petty offenses committed by women. Among
incarcerated women, particularly those who are pregnant or parenting,
substance use and its deleterious consequences are often exacerbated by
imprisonment. Women who have been identified as chemically dependent are
also at high risk for losing custody of their children. In California,
the Options for Recovery (OFR) treatment program provided an alternative
to incarceration or relinquishment of custody of children for chemically
dependent pregnant and parenting women. This three-year pilot project
offered alcohol and other drug abuse treatment and case management to
these women, and included special training and recruitment of foster
parents for their children. Findings from a three-year, multimethod
evaluation study showed that women who were mandated to OFR treatment
programs were more likely to successfully complete treatment than women
who had enrolled in OFR voluntarily. An economic analysis of the costs
associated with women in OFR compared with the combined costs of
incarceration and alcohol and other drug abuse treatment produced a
ratio in favor of OFR. Additionally, some innovative service
alternatives for women mandated to treatment were developed during the
project. The impact of such changes have implications for improving
women’s and family health. Copyright 1996, Haight-Ashbury Publications”

Also:
Mathias, R.  Correctional Treatment Helps Offenders Stay Drug and
Arrest Free. NIDA Notes (NN0026: 60-62.

What about all the alcoholics who respond positively to treatment, do
you suppose they’d do better if jailing them were used as a threat, or
do you think it might cause even more >unneeded problems for those poor
saps?

Both/and…I think some would probably do better and some would likely
do worse.  I think the research indicates that treatment works.  It
indicates that length of treatment and involvement in counseling and
12-step programs increases treatment effectiveness (E.g., NIDA Notes
V.14, #5).  It appears that coercing people into treatment works as
well.  In the long-term, however, reading between the lines and
deciphering the data would seem to indicate that motivation needs to
shift from external motivation to primarily an internal motivation for
long-term sobtriety to take place.  None of the foregoing should be
understood as an argument that it is MORALLY right to force people into
treatment for a recognized medical problem.

Do you think alcohol use should be treated differently than other
drugs people are treated for using? (A point Maia makes quite eloquently
in the article Dana just posted the other >day.)

…that’s a huge question, with not enough space to fully respond. ¬†My
simple answer is No, not really…complicated by the flipside that all
people are different, genetically, psychologically, etc. and that one
drug is chemically different than another…so Yes, they should be
treated differently. ¬†I don’t think a cookie-cutter approach is the most
effective approach. ¬†Methadone works? Great. ¬†Can’t seem to play by the
clinic rules? Let’s give Ibo a whirl. ¬†Hmmm…no money, no access?
Let’s give the cold-turkey a shot and load you up with NA/God/Synagogue.
Have you checked out URD? Buprenex? Putting on white robes and getting
dropped off with a few hundred gallons of water and a bunch of food in
the middle of the desert? ¬†…whatever the hell we can figure out to
do…legal or illegal…to make life manageable…all the while, making
sure they are clear on who is responsible for making the choices that
make things better or worse.  One quarter, One life, No time extensions,
and No replay…what does it mean for YOU to win? ¬†Don’t think drugs are
a problem? Fine. Use. If things get bad enough, at least consider the
possibility of being wrong.  Get busted?  Lobby. Protest. Change the
laws. Be a martyr…and sit in jail as the rules require. ¬†If that’s how
winning is defined for you…great.

I can personally vouch for the fact that jail is not healthy or fun,
nor did spending time inside ever keep me from wanting to get high. When
the judge first mandated me into >treatment, I thought it was a far
better choice than a trip through jail. Not by any means do I support
incarceration for any drug offense (which I hadn’t been charged with at
that >time, anyway), but treatment at that point wasn’t better for me.

Jail isn’t supposed to be fun ūüôā ¬†It’s designed to keep the dangerous
drug users off the streets…as opposed to rapists, murderers, and
molesters. ¬†I pretty much agree, but not with your qualifier “any drug
offense.”

This is getting too long…so I’ll just shut up now. ¬†Thanks for the
links. I’ll check them out.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: Jellking <jellking@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 18, 2002 at 10:00:09 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“Perhaps it’s Just Me, but thus far it has‚Ä®been my life’s experience that people in general do not care about issues‚Ä®which are not directly effecting THEIR lives.¬† Be that drug addiction,‚Ä®treatment, or those wacked out towel-heads living in weird countries‚Ä®nobody has ever heard of, someplace on the other side of the planet.¬† What‚Ä®the fuck is their problem anyway…?”
Yes, I agree.¬† But I saw this news item, where an African attending college in the eastern U.S.¬†went home for the summer or whatever, and told the people about 9/11, and the tribe got together and decided to give several cows to the people of NYC>¬† Now, that’s sort of heart-wrenching, as these people are way poor by our standards, and yet to them this is the obvious thing to do.¬† I had a friend in west Oakland, really poor neighborhood, mostly blacks and minimally employed¬† hispanics, and she explained to me once, “this is the kind of neighborhood where, when ya see someone who’s homeless, obviously in trouble of some kind, you don’t call the cops, you¬†give them¬†¬†a sandwich….”¬† I feel only people who are wealthy (by world standards) have this need to shut out everything and everyone else in order to hold onto their “space.”¬† Jane
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 4:08:01 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: Iboga@guest.arnes.si
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 10:02:02PM +0200], [Ustanova Iboga] wrote:

| Well, we have temperatures around 34 deg. Celsius, and I decided to sign
| off this list (just temporary), and go to http://www.sanpolo.cro.net/ for
| awhile… Used to be a great place; the first time I was there I had to ask
| a farmer if I can pitch my tent, and four families were there, so we had a
| LOT of place for ourselves…. Now is somehow different… a few years ago
| they brought water to the camp (before that we had to get it from 7 km away
| ;-)), and last year they even asphalted the road :(( ¬†BUT there’s no
| electricity yet…. At least I hope so!! (This progress is spoiling
| everything).
|
| I’ll sign off on Friday, because I can’t afford to have thousands e-mails
| when I come back… But I’ll have to come home regulary to empty my
| snail-mailbox, and check my e-mailbox to see if someone needs me ;-))
|
| Anyway, enjoy yourselves ;-))

Marko,

Hey, have a great vacation!  Seeya when you get back.

z00m,

Patrick

From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 4:02:02 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

At 19:35 18.6.2002, you wrote:

Uhm, basically, people are STUPID.
To reiterate: people are idiots.

Just saying,

Patrick

SSsshhh!!! That’s supposed to be a SECRET!!

Well, we have temperatures around 34 deg. Celsius, and I decided to sign off this list (just temporary), and go to http://www.sanpolo.cro.net/ for awhile… Used to be a great place; the first time I was there I had to ask a farmer if I can pitch my tent, and four families were there, so we had a LOT of place for ourselves…. Now is somehow different… a few years ago they brought water to the camp (before that we had to get it from 7 km away ;-)), and last year they even asphalted the road :(( ¬†BUT there’s no electricity yet…. At least I hope so!! (This progress is spoiling everything).

I’ll sign off on Friday, because I can’t afford to have thousands e-mails when I come back… But I’ll have to come home regulary to empty my snail-mailbox, and check my e-mailbox to see if someone needs me ;-))

Anyway, enjoy yourselves ;-))

And Patrick, don’t tell them ALL secrets, might be too heavy impact on some people’s heads! (On the second thought, go on, tell them all! They won’t understand it unless they CAN understand. Have you read that old SF story where people were asking someone (who knew EVERYTHING) questions, but they didn’t get any answers because questions were not precise enough and it was not possible answering them with precision; and to pose a precise question, one should know more than 90% of the answer… I forgot who wrote this story (Asimov? Lem? Adams?), but he was right ūüėČ

I’ll miss you all, but can’t take you with me; if anyone wants to join me there – he/she is most wellcome!!

;-)))

Marko

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 18, 2002 at 3:54:57 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

LOL, this is a discussion that took place and was
really interesting and long back in April I think it
was. I remember it because I started it, the
legalization part anyway questioning what would happen
if drugs were legal and what it would be like.

You might want to read some of that!

Carla B

— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 10:04AM >>>
You know, I think that was Russell’s point- That
despite the fact that
these and other plants can have certain alkoloids
isolated and removed
hasn’t lead to making them illegal, >so we don’t see
the headgiving,
etc. If they were isolated, introduced to the
public, then declared
illegal, I bet there’d be headgivers and other poor
schmoes struggling
to get >ahold of their fix that once they were able
to imbibe in and
function, but now must spend their days chasing,
coming up with the
money for the seriously inflated by prohibition
prices, contending with
adulterants and poor dosage standards, hiding from
cops and dealing with
shady dealers, called junkies and criminals by
friends, family, and even
strangers and treated as such for merely imbibing,
afraid to seek out
help or admit they take “drugs” because of the legal
and social
repurcussions, etc. etc.

I’m certainly for decriminalization…if I would
decide to grow some
shrooms, marijuana,  or extract LSA for my personal
use in the privacy
of my own home, I don’t feel it is any of the
government’s
business…not that I would, of course. ¬†I honestly
haven’t come to a
solid position on legalization. I see certain
benefits and certain
drawbacks.  There would likely be a significant
decrease in the
pernicious ramifications of “black-market”
profiteering.  From a
treatment perspective, legalization wouldn’t likely
resolve any of the
other unrelated destructive issues involved in
addiction (arguments re:
the terminology notwithstanding).  Family violence,
neglect, abuse,
etc., would remain and, perhaps, even increase
slightly.  Legalization
of alcohol didn’t really solve the alcoholic’s
problems…of course,
neither did prohibition.  Likewise, I imagine that
many heavy users
would simply use more because it was more easily
attainable (not that
it’s real difficult now, of course). ¬†Legalization
wouldn’t enable a
person to get and keep a job, raise healthy
children, etc…so it looks
like a fairly mixed bag.

if I could have paid the real price of what heroin
should be, you
know, about like aspirin, as it was back when Bayer
was making it, would
my drug experiences have been a hell >of a lot
different? I imagine they
might have been.

Hard to say…the best I would say is “you really
don’t know.” ¬†Prior
to the Harrison Narcotic Act you had a lot of people
who managed to
destroy themselves with Opium. ¬†As such, I don’t
think it’s an either/or
situation, but likely more of a both/and sort of
scenario.  There would
be those who it may well be better for, and those it
would be worse for,
and it wouldn’t really alleviate the primary
life-destroying effects of
an addiction.  As far as whether pricing would
really drop, I don’t have
any information regarding that…but you could place
a winning bet on
Uncle Sam throwing down some pretty big “Sin Tax” in
order to profit.
This is another reason I can sometimes sway toward
legalization…make
it legal and tax the hell out of it.

Hell, what’s the difference in giving methadone
instead of heroin,
other than for methadone being much more viscious
and harsh to the human
body than heroin? Why are we >allowed methadone, but
not heroin? (It
can’t possibly be because methadone doesn’t get
people high, because
while I never got high from it, I’ve seen scores,
and knows >scores,
that do get high from it, and chase it just as hard
as heroin, buying up
extra every single day, doubling their doses in some
cases or even more,
so they can get more high >from it, nodding off
every afternoon,
sweating and gibbering. Gee, come to think of it, I
actually used to
sweat and gibber a lot on methadone, so perhaps I
did get somewhat
“high” too. But I wasn’t chased by cops, knew I was
getting my drug
every day, knew it was methadone, not methadone and
whatever else the
dealer wanted to put into it, so it >lasted the same
amount of time
every day, and therefore I was able to focus on
other things finally.)

Methadone certainly has a longer half-life and keeps
blood serum levels
of the opiates more constant…so it is more
stabilizing and allows
people to be “able to focus on other things
finally.”
Sure, some folks are going to be getting high and
try to “kick it up a
notch,” but I think this doesn’t tend to be the
rule, rather, it seems
to be the exception..perhaps 10-15% here at our
clinic.
Though I’m sure it happens, you don’t generally have
75-90% of
methadone patients out stealing to support their
methadone habits. Even
if it was legal, you would still have a lot of
problems related to
employment. ¬†Nobody wants an “impaired” employee on
the job…usually an
eight hour period.
I disagree that methadone is more vicious or harsh
to the body.  As you
state it doesn’t have “whatever else the dealer
wanted to put in it.”
Likewise, you’re pretty unlikely to get a “hot shot”
of methadone
because you pissed off the nurse at the clinic.  But
it’s certainly more
vicious and harsh when trying to quit methadone cold
or being
“administratively detoxed,” so if that’s what you
mean, I would agree.

All of this isn’t to say that methadone is for
everyone.  Like
everything in life, it is a matter of weighing the
good and the bad.
Most institutions are like that…”jump thru our
hoops” if you want to
play on our team, otherwise, go somewhere else.
There is a lot of BS
related to methadone, but if a person makes a choice
to go for it, all
the BS, rules, and regulations go with it.  After
making an informed
decision, the “bitching” should stop. ¬†That’s not to
say that people
shouldn’t advocate for positive change and challenge
the BS…but here
at least, 99% of the bitching is done by 99% of the
people who fail to
make the rubber meet the road…they’d rather just
bitch, which amounts
to nothing.

I don’t have anything against treatment, as long as
it is entirely
voluntary.

On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is
very interesting
that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free,
both in the
short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who
are coerced into
treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation
seem to do worse.
Probably related to self-realization that making it
work is mainly a
matter of decisions, choices, habits, hobbies,
relationships, etc.  As a
pragmatist, primarily concerned with helping people
overcome the
destructive effects of their drug-using habits, I’ll
make use of
whatever I can to achieve my goals.  If and when
treatment becomes
voluntary, I’ll make due with the new reality.

=== message truncated ===> BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
X-GWTYPE:USER
FN:Rick Venglarcik
TEL;WORK:(757) 827-8430
ORG:HNNCSB;Hampton Roads Clinic
EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:RickV@hnncsb.org
N:Venglarcik;Rick
TITLE:Therapist I
ADR;INTL;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL:;;2236 W. Queen St.,
Suite C;Hampton;VA;23666;US of A

LABEL;INTL;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:Rick
Venglarcik=0A=
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
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LABEL;DOM;WORK;PARCEL;POSTAL;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:Rick
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2236 W. Queen St., Suite C=0A=
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END:VCARD

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 3:50:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

No idea, yahoo just throws it in the trash
automatically. I used to complain about this a few
months ago when I first signed up here because
suddenly I had all this crazy stuff from save the
whales and some lady who runs this

http://truedemocracy.net

Signed me up to some weird lists. Thanks I can choose
my own weird lists ūüôā

It wasn’t from Dana either, but it was from his
mailings which he sends out that look to land in
100,000 mailboxes when he takes messages from here to
share them with more people.

What worked for me was just making folders and when
someone keeps sending junk I don’t want, it
automatically goes there and I don’t have to read it.

The good side I think is a lottttttttttt of people
read all this. The bad side is the more people that
do, the more junk arrives. But it’s not so hard to get
rid of. I don’t know almost anything about computers
and I managed it ūüôā

Carla B

— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:58:36PM -0400], [Rick
Venglarcik] wrote:

| Mayhaps the individual in question is a member of
the list, then? ¬†I’ve
| gotten about 10-15 in the past few days; some sent
to ibogaine, others
| BC’d to me, and some directly to my addy. ¬†Last
time I got a virus,
| prior to signing up on this list was 6 or 7 months
ago.  I only use this
| addy for the ibogaine list and one other…with a
strict privacy policy.
|  Assumably, they could have gotten your message
digest or index, but it
| seems likely that the SOB is a list member.  I
sent a copy of the last 6
| or 7 headers to the originating domain
(fmcf.fr)…every administrative
| addy I could find at fmcf.fr, as well as nic.fr,
and the upstream
| provider.

Yeah I just looked, that’s this:

Received: (qmail 22718 invoked from network); 18 Jun
2002 18:31:56 -0000
Received: from smtp2.fmcf.fr (HELO webmail.fmcf.fr)
(160.92.109.46)
by 192.168.2.200 with SMTP; 18 Jun 2002 18:31:56
-0000
Received: by webmail.fmcf.fr (5.5.029) id
3CF76F4900011899; Tue, 18 Jun
2002 20:39:35 +0200

11  193.252.161.30 (193.252.161.30)  84.389 ms
122.408 ms  223.336 ms
12  P5-0.ntaub101.Aubervilliers.francetelecom.net
(193.251.126.181)
84.310 ms  84.072 ms  84.039 ms
13  P9-0.nrlil101.VilleneuveDAscq.francetelecom.net
(193.251.126.173)
88.122 ms  88.133 ms  88.016 ms
14  194.51.136.130 (194.51.136.130)  87.991 ms
88.095 ms  87.926 ms
15  194.51.136.158 (194.51.136.158)  88.217 ms
88.493 ms  88.285 ms
16  212.234.245.218 (212.234.245.218)  88.282 ms
88.451 ms  88.414 ms
17  ffma01.axime.com (160.92.113.98)  90.182 ms
89.522 ms  90.036 ms
18  sw-core01.axime.com (160.92.120.198)  89.603 ms
89.247 ms  88.873 ms

Prolly they have an open mail relay they dunno how
to close, and/or their
system is a mess.

| My next step, if that fails…fly to France, hunt
the bastard down with
| a crack team of undercover NetNinjas, then cut his
throat and watch him
| bleed.

Yeah, well… ¬†I wouldn’t waste the energy. ¬†This is
like, whatever, a
perpetual swarm of mosquitoes. ¬†I don’t actually see
any of this shit,
‘cuz my filters throw it into some mailbox for
“script-kiddies”. ¬†I’m not
using windoze, I have a Sun and a Mac OS/X machine.
Bruce duz have
windoze XP on his laptop, the sum total of all that
happens is, Norton
pops up a panel which sez’ <to paraphrase> “A buncha
crap intercepted,
wanna delete it or archive it?” tha end.

Your comments are strangely applicable though…
The few times in the
past when we did actually have security problems,
what’ll happen is, the
do0d(z) who duz it, is never able to keep his mouth
shut, ‘cuz what’s the
point of gaining props and rep by doing so, if
nobody knows?  Invariably
someone he brags to will wind up giving it all to
us, in another attempt
to gain props, using another methadology, at which
point it amounts to,
“hullo. ¬†I’m not gonna call the cops, or the secret
service, or do
whatever. ¬†It’s a very small planet, and what I’m
gonna do is get on a
plane, come to your house, and beat your fucking
bitch-pig computer twerp
head in. ¬†I meant to say, chat.”

Uhm, I meant to say: most mail clients will weed
this shit out.  If you
are afflicted with Windoze and like using Outlook,
God help you — I meant
to say: it’d prolly be a REALLY GOOD idea to run
Norton, or any other
halfway decent virus program.  Plus, also, perhaps,
download the exciting
Emergency M1cr0$0ft hotf1x patCHeZ, which arrive
roughly 3 times a week.
Although this usually just causes another layer of
problems once M$’s
hotfixes break the OS, forcing you to rollback
before you updated all this
junk, or wait for the next Super-Exciting Emergency
HotFix Package, which
will surely arrive a day or three later.

None of this will work on the Vox interface,
which’ll arrive Any Moment
Now.

The adventure continues.

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 3:01:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:58:36PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| Mayhaps the individual in question is a member of the list, then? ¬†I’ve
| gotten about 10-15 in the past few days; some sent to ibogaine, others
| BC’d to me, and some directly to my addy. ¬†Last time I got a virus,
| prior to signing up on this list was 6 or 7 months ago.  I only use this
| addy for the ibogaine list and one other…with a strict privacy policy.
|  Assumably, they could have gotten your message digest or index, but it
| seems likely that the SOB is a list member.  I sent a copy of the last 6
| or 7 headers to the originating domain (fmcf.fr)…every administrative
| addy I could find at fmcf.fr, as well as nic.fr, and the upstream
| provider.

Yeah I just looked, that’s this:

Received: (qmail 22718 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2002 18:31:56 -0000
Received: from smtp2.fmcf.fr (HELO webmail.fmcf.fr) (160.92.109.46)
by 192.168.2.200 with SMTP; 18 Jun 2002 18:31:56 -0000
Received: by webmail.fmcf.fr (5.5.029) id 3CF76F4900011899; Tue, 18 Jun
2002 20:39:35 +0200

11  193.252.161.30 (193.252.161.30)  84.389 ms  122.408 ms  223.336 ms
12  P5-0.ntaub101.Aubervilliers.francetelecom.net (193.251.126.181)
84.310 ms  84.072 ms  84.039 ms
13  P9-0.nrlil101.VilleneuveDAscq.francetelecom.net (193.251.126.173)
88.122 ms  88.133 ms  88.016 ms
14  194.51.136.130 (194.51.136.130)  87.991 ms  88.095 ms  87.926 ms
15  194.51.136.158 (194.51.136.158)  88.217 ms  88.493 ms  88.285 ms
16  212.234.245.218 (212.234.245.218)  88.282 ms  88.451 ms  88.414 ms
17  ffma01.axime.com (160.92.113.98)  90.182 ms  89.522 ms  90.036 ms
18  sw-core01.axime.com (160.92.120.198)  89.603 ms  89.247 ms  88.873 ms

Prolly they have an open mail relay they dunno how to close, and/or their
system is a mess.

| My next step, if that fails…fly to France, hunt the bastard down with
| a crack team of undercover NetNinjas, then cut his throat and watch him
| bleed.

Yeah, well… ¬†I wouldn’t waste the energy. ¬†This is like, whatever, a
perpetual swarm of mosquitoes. ¬†I don’t actually see any of this shit,
‘cuz my filters throw it into some mailbox for “script-kiddies”. ¬†I’m not
using windoze, I have a Sun and a Mac OS/X machine.  Bruce duz have
windoze XP on his laptop, the sum total of all that happens is, Norton
pops up a panel which sez’ <to paraphrase> “A buncha crap intercepted,
wanna delete it or archive it?” tha end.

Your comments are strangely applicable though… ¬†The few times in the
past when we did actually have security problems, what’ll happen is, the
do0d(z) who duz it, is never able to keep his mouth shut, ‘cuz what’s the
point of gaining props and rep by doing so, if nobody knows?  Invariably
someone he brags to will wind up giving it all to us, in another attempt
to gain props, using another methadology, at which point it amounts to,
“hullo. ¬†I’m not gonna call the cops, or the secret service, or do
whatever. ¬†It’s a very small planet, and what I’m gonna do is get on a
plane, come to your house, and beat your fucking bitch-pig computer twerp
head in. ¬†I meant to say, chat.”

Uhm, I meant to say: most mail clients will weed this shit out.  If you
are afflicted with Windoze and like using Outlook, God help you — I meant
to say: it’d prolly be a REALLY GOOD idea to run Norton, or any other
halfway decent virus program.  Plus, also, perhaps, download the exciting
Emergency M1cr0$0ft hotf1x patCHeZ, which arrive roughly 3 times a week.
Although this usually just causes another layer of problems once M$’s
hotfixes break the OS, forcing you to rollback before you updated all this
junk, or wait for the next Super-Exciting Emergency HotFix Package, which
will surely arrive a day or three later.

None of this will work on the Vox interface, which’ll arrive Any Moment
Now.

The adventure continues.

Patrick

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 18, 2002 at 1:42:10 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>There would
be those who it may well be better for, and those it would be worse for,
and it wouldn’t really alleviate the primary life-destroying effects of
an addiction.  <

The main point is that it would remove the added complications and stresses directly attributable to prohibition. Without those, the rest may just be a little easier to work on. Granted, there’s still a lot of trouble with alcohol, but without those extras to mess things up even further.

>Though I’m sure it happens, you don’t generally have 75-90% of
methadone patients out stealing to support their methadone habits.<

My point exactly- we give these addicts their drug and they become, in some cases, productive, and¬†when they choose to¬†buy more from other addicts, it’s really cheap. Hence,¬†little robbing, stealing, etc. to get¬†more.

>I disagree that methadone is more vicious or harsh to the body.  As you
state it doesn’t have “whatever else the dealer wanted to put in it.” Likewise, you’re pretty unlikely to get a “hot shot” of methadone because you pissed off the nurse at the clinic.¬† But it’s certainly more
vicious and harsh when trying to quit methadone cold or being
“administratively detoxed,” so if that’s what you mean, I would agree. <

Seems you’re mixing the adulterants in with the heroin. Forget the adulterants- what if the heroin wasn’t in the hands of shady dealers? What if you didn’t have to worry about the adulterants? Just like methadoen patients don’t for methadone, or worry about a hot shot of methadone >from a pissed off nurse, (who do cause lots and lots of stress sometimes for no reason whatsoever, only rarely deadly stress,¬†just because of some wild hair or other, which is one of the big reasons I grew tired of methadone and the clinic, even with just one visit a week.) So, if we’re only talking about the difference in heroin and methadone, NOT street heroin that’s been stepped all over, methadone is much more toxic for a human system, from what I’ve read.

>All of this isn’t to say that methadone is for everyone.¬† Like
everything in life, it is a matter of weighing the good and the bad.
Most institutions are like that…”jump thru our hoops” if you want to
play on our team, otherwise, go somewhere else.  There is a lot of BS
related to methadone, but if a person makes a choice to go for it, all
the BS, rules, and regulations go with it.  After making an informed
decision, the “bitching” should stop.¬† That’s not to say that people
shouldn’t advocate for positive change and challenge the BS…but here
at least, 99% of the bitching is done by 99% of the people who fail to
make the rubber meet the road…they’d rather just bitch, which amounts
to nothing.<

Ok, granted.

>On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very interesting
that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.<

Not sure I agree with you here Rick. On what are you basing this? Seems to me from what I’ve read and experienced that for one, drug free is not always the best answer for everyone, so insisting that someone remain drug free or go to jail is plain evil, and two, from what I understand, those with higher internal motivation are the ones who do best, not worst. At least in my own case, and according to Lonny Shavelson in his brilliant book, “Hooked”. What about all the alcoholics who respond positively to treatment, do you suppose they’d¬†do better if jailing them¬†were used as a threat, or do you think it might cause even more unneeded problems for those poor saps? Do you think alcohol use¬†should be treated differently than other drugs people are treated for using? (A point Maia makes quite eloquently in the article Dana just posted the other day.)
Don’t¬†think you were on this list when I first posted this, but here’s¬†a URL to M is for Methadone again, by me.
http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id838/pg1/
snip-
Of course, one has to already have the “high motivation for change” that has been recently reported to be associated with successful MMT. Otherwise the patient can and often does continue to use anything and everything else, including dope, and I see it all the time. Some may take this to mean that after all is said and done, it’s a person’s will power keeping them in line, so why should they need the Methadone, except as a crutch?
snip-

On the coerced treatment issue-
(From “Treatment vs. Jail- Is This Really a Choice” also by me¬†in “You Are Being Lied To”, now out on shelves- see here for more details- http://www.alternewswire.com/eykiw/ )
snip-
I can personally vouch for the fact that jail is not healthy or fun, nor did spending time inside ever keep me from wanting to get high. When the judge first mandated me into treatment, I thought it was a far better choice than a trip through jail. Not by any means do I support incarceration for any drug offense (which I hadn¬ít been charged with at that time, anyway), but treatment at that point wasn¬ít better for me. It merely exacerbated my already high stress levels by focusing on immediately eradicating my drug use to the exclusion of all else, which I in turn dealt with by doing more drugs. This was when I first heard that I had a disease called ¬ďaddiction,¬Ē that I had no control, that all substance use was substance abuse, that any drug use would lead me straight to jails, institutions, or death. As I wouldn¬ít accept this, even daring to question these assertions, I was in ¬ďdenial.¬Ē Coerced drug treatment ordered by the court did nothing but prolong my legal and personal difficulties.

¬ďIn thinking about linkages between drug treatment and criminal sanctions, it is important to distinguish between questions of effectiveness and fairness,¬Ē explains a recent report from the National Academy of Sciences.[5] ¬ďSupporters of using the criminal justice system for therapeutic leverage typically view treatment participation offered to offenders as an ameliorative device–an opportunity for mitigating the sentence they would otherwise receive (i.e., probation with treatment is offered in lieu of incarceration, using the threat of incarceration for noncompliance). Others worry that programs of mandated treatment will actually have the effect of increasing the severity of punishment compared with what the offenders would otherwise have received. As an example, offenders who otherwise would have been sentenced to traditional probation could be subject to treatment conditions that create a risk of imprisonment (for noncompliance) that otherwise wouldn¬ít have existed. Or an offender whose case might otherwise have been dismissed could be sentenced to conditional probation. These are classic ¬Ďnet-widening¬í concerns, because they widen the reach and deepen the intensity of punishment. This issue should be kept in mind in considering research on coerced treatment.¬Ē-snip

snip-
According to public hearings for “Changing the Conversation: A National Plan to Improve Substance Abuse Treatment,” sponsored by the US Center for Substance Abuse Treatment: ¬ďOver the last decade, spending on substance abuse prevention and treatment has increased, albeit more slowly than overall health spending, to an estimated annual total of $12.6 billion in 1996. Of this amount, public spending is estimated at $7.6 billion…. One of the main reasons for the higher outlay in public spending is the frequently limited coverage of substance abuse treatment by private insurers. Although ¬Ď70 percent of drug users are employed and most have private health insurance, 20 percent of public treatment funds were spent on people with private health insurance in 1993, due to limitations on their policy.¬í¬Ē[14]

If the current ¬ďrush to rehab is indeed going to ease our nation away from the disasters of addiction, we must first determine if treatment indeed keeps addicts off drugs,¬Ē notes author and photojournalist Lonny Shavelson when discussing US treatment efforts, primarily San Francisco¬ís September 1997 plan of treatment on demand for any addict who said he or she was ready to stop using drugs. ¬ďIf, as the data seem to show, treatment doesn¬ít actually keep addicts clean, this new push for rehab will simply become another dogma-based government strategy doomed to failure.

¬ďRehab has to work for the hardest-core of the dope fiends–those who create the vast majority of troubles we¬íve artificially lumped into a single set phrase: the drug problem. The US Department of Justice has concluded that only a small percentage of the nation¬ís drug abusers create ¬Ďan extraordinary proportion of crime.¬í Yet those most destructive addicts are the least likely to enter or be helped by rehab. This latest push towards treatment, then, may do nothing more than get the ¬Ďbetter¬í addicts off drugs, leaving the hard-core troublemakers still disastrously addicted…. Those hard-core addicts (10 to 20 percent of users) have, depending on your point of view, either brought on the drug war, or are the tragic casualties of its battles. But if frenzied addictions are indeed responses to lives often complicated by irresolute ghetto-poverty or psychological disturbances, then rehab programs that fail to address these underlying conditions will barely make a dent in our nation¬ís drug disasters.¬Ē[15]

Rather than addressing the root causes of hardcore drug abuse, the prohibitionists have a much easier time directing attention to that most benign of plants, marijuana. The Office of National Drug Control Policy estimates the numbers of hardcore drug abusers between 1988 and 1998 at 3.2 million to 3.9 million (cocaine), 630,000 to 980,000 (heroin), and 300,00 to 400,000 (methamphetamine). With these numbers, the Warriors should be hard-pressed to justify the billions spent on the war–unless they drag pot into the picture.
snip-
5.Committee on Data and Research for Policy on Illegal Drugs, Charles F. Manski, John V. Pepper, and Carol V. Petrie, Editors. ¬ďInforming America¬ís Policy on Illegal Drugs: What We Don¬ít Know Keeps Hurting Us.¬Ē Committee on Law and Justice and Committee on National Statistics, National Research Council (2001): 238.
14. ¬ďChanging the Conversation: Improving Substance Abuse Treatment: The
National Treatment Plan Initiative: Panel Reports, Public Hearings, and
Public Acknowledgements.¬Ē US Department of Health and Human Services (Nov 2000): 12. <www.natxplan.org>. For ease of reading, internal references in the quote have been left out.
15. Shavelson, Lonny. Hooked: Five Addicts Challenge Our Misguided Drug Rehab System. New York: The New Press, 2001: 7.
Peace,
Preston

 

—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?

>>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 10:04AM >>>
>You know, I think that was Russell’s point- That despite the fact that
these and other plants can have certain alkoloids isolated and removed
hasn’t lead to making them illegal, >so we don’t see the headgiving,
etc. If they were isolated, introduced to the public, then declared
illegal, I bet there’d be headgivers and other poor schmoes struggling
to get >ahold of their fix that once they were able to imbibe in and
function, but now must spend their days chasing, coming up with the
money for the seriously inflated by prohibition >prices, contending with
adulterants and poor dosage standards, hiding from cops and dealing with
shady dealers, called junkies and criminals by friends, family, and even
>strangers and treated as such for merely imbibing, afraid to seek out
help or admit they take “drugs” because of the legal and social
repurcussions, etc. etc.

I’m certainly for decriminalization…if I would decide to grow some
shrooms, marijuana,  or extract LSA for my personal use in the privacy
of my own home, I don’t feel it is any of the government’s
business…not that I would, of course.¬† I honestly haven’t come to a
solid position on legalization. I see certain benefits and certain
drawbacks.  There would likely be a significant decrease in the
pernicious ramifications of “black-market”¬† profiteering.¬† From a
treatment perspective, legalization wouldn’t likely resolve any of the
other unrelated destructive issues involved in addiction (arguments re:
the terminology notwithstanding).  Family violence, neglect, abuse,
etc., would remain and, perhaps, even increase slightly.  Legalization
of alcohol didn’t really solve the alcoholic’s problems…of course,
neither did prohibition.  Likewise, I imagine that many heavy users
would simply use more because it was more easily attainable (not that
it’s real difficult now, of course).¬† Legalization wouldn’t enable a
person to get and keep a job, raise healthy children, etc…so it looks
like a fairly mixed bag.

>if I could have paid the real price of what heroin should be, you
know, about like aspirin, as it was back when Bayer was making it, would
my drug experiences have been a hell >of a lot different? I imagine they
might have been.

Hard to say…the best I would say is “you really don’t know.”¬† Prior
to the Harrison Narcotic Act you had a lot of people who managed to
destroy themselves with Opium.¬† As such, I don’t think it’s an either/or
situation, but likely more of a both/and sort of scenario.  There would
be those who it may well be better for, and those it would be worse for,
and it wouldn’t really alleviate the primary life-destroying effects of
an addiction.¬† As far as whether pricing would really drop, I don’t have
any information regarding that…but you could place a winning bet on
Uncle Sam throwing down some pretty big “Sin Tax” in order to profit.
This is another reason I can sometimes sway toward legalization…make
it legal and tax the hell out of it.

>Hell, what’s the difference in giving methadone instead of heroin,
other than for methadone being much more viscious and harsh to the human
body than heroin? Why are we >allowed methadone, but not heroin? (It
can’t possibly be because methadone doesn’t get people high, because
while I never got high from it, I’ve seen scores, and knows >scores,
that do get high from it, and chase it just as hard as heroin, buying up
extra every single day, doubling their doses in some cases or even more,
so they can get more high >from it, nodding off every afternoon,
sweating and gibbering. Gee, come to think of it, I actually used to
sweat and gibber a lot on methadone, so perhaps I did get somewhat
>”high” too. But I wasn’t chased by cops, knew I was getting my drug
every day, knew it was methadone, not methadone and whatever else the
dealer wanted to put into it, so it >lasted the same amount of time
every day, and therefore I was able to focus on other things finally.)

Methadone certainly has a longer half-life and keeps blood serum levels
of the opiates more constant…so it is more stabilizing and allows
people to be “able to focus on other things finally.”
Sure, some folks are going to be getting high and try to “kick it up a
notch,” but I think this doesn’t tend to be the rule, rather, it seems
to be the exception..perhaps 10-15% here at our clinic.
Though I’m sure it happens, you don’t generally have 75-90% of
methadone patients out stealing to support their methadone habits. Even
if it was legal, you would still have a lot of problems related to
employment.¬† Nobody wants an “impaired” employee on the job…usually an
eight hour period.
I disagree that methadone is more vicious or harsh to the body.  As you
state it doesn’t have “whatever else the dealer wanted to put in it.”
Likewise, you’re pretty unlikely to get a “hot shot” of methadone
because you pissed off the nurse at the clinic.¬† But it’s certainly more
vicious and harsh when trying to quit methadone cold or being
“administratively detoxed,” so if that’s what you mean, I would agree.

All of this isn’t to say that methadone is for everyone.¬† Like
everything in life, it is a matter of weighing the good and the bad.
Most institutions are like that…”jump thru our hoops” if you want to
play on our team, otherwise, go somewhere else.  There is a lot of BS
related to methadone, but if a person makes a choice to go for it, all
the BS, rules, and regulations go with it.  After making an informed
decision, the “bitching” should stop.¬† That’s not to say that people
shouldn’t advocate for positive change and challenge the BS…but here
at least, 99% of the bitching is done by 99% of the people who fail to
make the rubber meet the road…they’d rather just bitch, which amounts
to nothing.

>I don’t have anything against treatment, as long as it is entirely
voluntary.

On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very interesting
that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
Probably related to self-realization that making it work is mainly a
matter of decisions, choices, habits, hobbies, relationships, etc.  As a
pragmatist, primarily concerned with helping people overcome the
destructive effects of their drug-using habits, I’ll make use of
whatever I can to achieve my goals.  If and when treatment becomes
voluntary, I’ll make due with the new reality.

 

 

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 1:35:39 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 10:14:51AM -0700], [vector6@space.com] wrote:

| You should change your email ūüôā You’ve had digital@phantom.com since
| !bang addressing stopped and the internet as we know it started.

Nah, that’d be giving up. ¬†Fuck ’em.

| That reminded me of something I always wanted to ask. What is the deal
| with alldes where they list wiretap as being hacked by the MindVox Crew
| along with microsoft and all the other stuff? And warez.phantom.com, has
| that ever gone anywhere?

Uhm, basically, people are STUPID. ¬†Wiretap is Evan’s machine, where we
briefly mirrored Vox at some point. ¬†The “Defaced by the MindVox (rew”
logo was the front of the old web site.  Some genius noticed this, then
ran nmap on “wiretap.com” ! and posted that.

What they actually did was run nmap on our firewall, which they apparently
could not figure out was BSD.  <shrug>.  People are idiots.  This is a
recurring theme.

warez.phantom.com has also been “defaced” roughly 50 times. ¬†Which is
somewhat hysterical.  It has *never* gone anywhere; whut it actually is,
is just loopback. ¬†It goes to 127.1 — at this point whomever is accessing
it should be experiencing a strange feeling of deja-vu, THINGS and STUFF
would be highly familiar.  Apparently this has not dissuaded at least a
handful of people from running a series of F3ars0me Destrukshun to0lZ upon
warez.phantom.com and then emailing us going, “Hahahahaha! ¬†LOOK WHAT I
DID!!!!!”

Whatcha just did, ‘wuz run God knows what, on your own box.
Congratulations.  Whoopsie.

If you didn’t unnerstan’ alla dat, warez.phantom.com is just holding up a
mirror and reflecting back at the beholder.  Tha end.

“The MindVox Crew” is/was some group of kids from I forget which
countries, that used to blow shit up in our honor.  God bless us all,
everyone.

| Mindvox has to be hit a lot, that would be a nice trophy for the
| defacement archive ūüôā

Yah, shit happens. ¬†Just hasn’t happened yet. ¬†Whomever eventually duz it,
will be one of a small handful of very smart people who have actual
skills, and are pissed at us.  s(r1pt kiddieZ will not manage this; whut
they’ll continue to do is click the [OK] button on sumthin’ they
downloaded here: ¬†http://www.astalavista.com ¬†because THIS TIME it’ll DO
SOMETHING *really* scary! ¬†Unlike the 980 other times they’ve tried.

To reiterate: people are idiots.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: vector6@space.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 1:14:51 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

You should change your email ūüôā You’ve had digital@phantom.com since !bang addressing stopped and the internet as we know it started. That reminded me of something I always wanted to ask. What is the deal with alldes where they list wiretap as being hacked by the MindVox Crew along with microsoft and all the other stuff? And warez.phantom.com, has that ever gone anywhere? alt.sysadmin.recovery lists phantom.com as one of the inspirations for starting system admin 12 step group for security people having nervous breakdowns ūüôā Is it real has it ever gone anywhere? Mindvox has to be hit a lot, that would be a nice trophy for the defacement archive ūüôā .:vector:. On Tue, 18 June 2002, “Patrick K. Kroupa” wrote > > On [Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:42:55AM -0700], [Dana Beal] wrote: > > | >*** A virus was detected by the security administrator; this message > | >was discarded *** > | > | I have a Mac, no a p.c. I don’t see how I could be hitting people with a > | virus. > > You’re not. This is qmail bouncing out shit which is attempting to fuck > with Outlook/Windoze. Personally I receive roughly 50 viruses a day — I > have a neat collection now — counting alla MindVox, we’re at maybe > 150-200 kids dumping this crap upon us every day. > > Whut I’m prolly gonna do is leave the list as it is, but throw a few > flags, and change the settings so that anybody who is NOT subscribed to > the list, cannot mail into it, without having it released by hand. If > this becomes too much of a headache, it’s just gonna be closed to anybody > who is not subscribed. This shouldn’t be much of a problem, since the > only reason anyone who is not actually reading it, would have to send > email to it, is ranting, junk mail, or a virus! > > By the way, I think various servers in France, all of Malaysia, and parts > of Japan, are currently automagically blocked — since 90% of the crap > which lands, is spoofed out of those places; which are more or less, swiss > cheese, in terms of “security.” So, uhm, if anybody knows someone from > those places who seemingly cannot subscribe to the list … this is why, I > hafta release their account by hand. > > Anywaze, it ain’t you Dana, it’s SOME do0D attempting to spam the list > with crap. > > Patrick
___________________________________________________________________
Join the Space Program: Get FREE E-mail at http://www.space.com.

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 12:58:36 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Mayhaps the individual in question is a member of the list, then? ¬†I’ve
gotten about 10-15 in the past few days; some sent to ibogaine, others
BC’d to me, and some directly to my addy. ¬†Last time I got a virus,
prior to signing up on this list was 6 or 7 months ago.  I only use this
addy for the ibogaine list and one other…with a strict privacy policy.
Assumably, they could have gotten your message digest or index, but it
seems likely that the SOB is a list member.  I sent a copy of the last 6
or 7 headers to the originating domain (fmcf.fr)…every administrative
addy I could find at fmcf.fr, as well as nic.fr, and the upstream
provider.

My next step, if that fails…fly to France, hunt the bastard down with
a crack team of undercover NetNinjas, then cut his throat and watch him
bleed.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

digital@phantom.com 06/18/02 12:13PM >>>
On [Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:42:55AM -0700], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| >*** A virus was detected by the security administrator; this message

| >was discarded ***
|
| I have a Mac, no a p.c. I don’t see how I could be hitting people
with a
| virus.

You’re not. ¬†This is qmail bouncing out shit which is attempting to
fuck
with Outlook/Windoze. ¬†Personally I receive roughly 50 viruses a day —
I
have a neat collection now — counting alla MindVox, we’re at maybe
150-200 kids dumping this crap upon us every day.

Whut I’m prolly gonna do is leave the list as it is, but throw a few
flags, and change the settings so that anybody who is NOT subscribed
to
the list, cannot mail into it, without having it released by hand.  If
this becomes too much of a headache, it’s just gonna be closed to
anybody
who is not subscribed. ¬†This shouldn’t be much of a problem, since the
only reason anyone who is not actually reading it, would have to send
email to it, is ranting, junk mail, or a virus!

By the way, I think various servers in France, all of Malaysia, and
parts
of Japan, are currently automagically blocked — since 90% of the crap
which lands, is spoofed out of those places; which are more or less,
swiss
cheese, in terms of “security.” ¬†So, uhm, if anybody knows someone
from
those places who seemingly cannot subscribe to the list … this is
why, I
hafta release their account by hand.

Anywaze, it ain’t you Dana, it’s SOME do0D attempting to spam the list
with crap.

Patrick

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 18, 2002 at 12:33:52 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/18/02 10:04AM >>>
You know, I think that was Russell’s point- That despite the fact that
these and other plants can have certain alkoloids isolated and removed
hasn’t lead to making them illegal, >so we don’t see the headgiving,
etc. If they were isolated, introduced to the public, then declared
illegal, I bet there’d be headgivers and other poor schmoes struggling
to get >ahold of their fix that once they were able to imbibe in and
function, but now must spend their days chasing, coming up with the
money for the seriously inflated by prohibition >prices, contending with
adulterants and poor dosage standards, hiding from cops and dealing with
shady dealers, called junkies and criminals by friends, family, and even
strangers and treated as such for merely imbibing, afraid to seek out
help or admit they take “drugs” because of the legal and social
repurcussions, etc. etc.

I’m certainly for decriminalization…if I would decide to grow some
shrooms, marijuana,  or extract LSA for my personal use in the privacy
of my own home, I don’t feel it is any of the government’s
business…not that I would, of course. ¬†I honestly haven’t come to a
solid position on legalization. I see certain benefits and certain
drawbacks.  There would likely be a significant decrease in the
pernicious ramifications of “black-market” ¬†profiteering. ¬†From a
treatment perspective, legalization wouldn’t likely resolve any of the
other unrelated destructive issues involved in addiction (arguments re:
the terminology notwithstanding).  Family violence, neglect, abuse,
etc., would remain and, perhaps, even increase slightly.  Legalization
of alcohol didn’t really solve the alcoholic’s problems…of course,
neither did prohibition.  Likewise, I imagine that many heavy users
would simply use more because it was more easily attainable (not that
it’s real difficult now, of course). ¬†Legalization wouldn’t enable a
person to get and keep a job, raise healthy children, etc…so it looks
like a fairly mixed bag.

if I could have paid the real price of what heroin should be, you
know, about like aspirin, as it was back when Bayer was making it, would
my drug experiences have been a hell >of a lot different? I imagine they
might have been.

Hard to say…the best I would say is “you really don’t know.” ¬†Prior
to the Harrison Narcotic Act you had a lot of people who managed to
destroy themselves with Opium. ¬†As such, I don’t think it’s an either/or
situation, but likely more of a both/and sort of scenario.  There would
be those who it may well be better for, and those it would be worse for,
and it wouldn’t really alleviate the primary life-destroying effects of
an addiction. ¬†As far as whether pricing would really drop, I don’t have
any information regarding that…but you could place a winning bet on
Uncle Sam throwing down some pretty big “Sin Tax” in order to profit.
This is another reason I can sometimes sway toward legalization…make
it legal and tax the hell out of it.

Hell, what’s the difference in giving methadone instead of heroin,
other than for methadone being much more viscious and harsh to the human
body than heroin? Why are we >allowed methadone, but not heroin? (It
can’t possibly be because methadone doesn’t get people high, because
while I never got high from it, I’ve seen scores, and knows >scores,
that do get high from it, and chase it just as hard as heroin, buying up
extra every single day, doubling their doses in some cases or even more,
so they can get more high >from it, nodding off every afternoon,
sweating and gibbering. Gee, come to think of it, I actually used to
sweat and gibber a lot on methadone, so perhaps I did get somewhat
“high” too. But I wasn’t chased by cops, knew I was getting my drug
every day, knew it was methadone, not methadone and whatever else the
dealer wanted to put into it, so it >lasted the same amount of time
every day, and therefore I was able to focus on other things finally.)

Methadone certainly has a longer half-life and keeps blood serum levels
of the opiates more constant…so it is more stabilizing and allows
people to be “able to focus on other things finally.”
Sure, some folks are going to be getting high and try to “kick it up a
notch,” but I think this doesn’t tend to be the rule, rather, it seems
to be the exception..perhaps 10-15% here at our clinic.
Though I’m sure it happens, you don’t generally have 75-90% of
methadone patients out stealing to support their methadone habits. Even
if it was legal, you would still have a lot of problems related to
employment. ¬†Nobody wants an “impaired” employee on the job…usually an
eight hour period.
I disagree that methadone is more vicious or harsh to the body.  As you
state it doesn’t have “whatever else the dealer wanted to put in it.”
Likewise, you’re pretty unlikely to get a “hot shot” of methadone
because you pissed off the nurse at the clinic. ¬†But it’s certainly more
vicious and harsh when trying to quit methadone cold or being
“administratively detoxed,” so if that’s what you mean, I would agree.

All of this isn’t to say that methadone is for everyone. ¬†Like
everything in life, it is a matter of weighing the good and the bad.
Most institutions are like that…”jump thru our hoops” if you want to
play on our team, otherwise, go somewhere else.  There is a lot of BS
related to methadone, but if a person makes a choice to go for it, all
the BS, rules, and regulations go with it.  After making an informed
decision, the “bitching” should stop. ¬†That’s not to say that people
shouldn’t advocate for positive change and challenge the BS…but here
at least, 99% of the bitching is done by 99% of the people who fail to
make the rubber meet the road…they’d rather just bitch, which amounts
to nothing.

I don’t have anything against treatment, as long as it is entirely
voluntary.

On one hand I completely agree.  On the other, it is very interesting
that those who seem to do best remaining drug-free, both in the
short-run and the long-run, appears to be those who are coerced into
treatment.  Those with higher internal motivation seem to do worse.
Probably related to self-realization that making it work is mainly a
matter of decisions, choices, habits, hobbies, relationships, etc.  As a
pragmatist, primarily concerned with helping people overcome the
destructive effects of their drug-using habits, I’ll make use of
whatever I can to achieve my goals.  If and when treatment becomes
voluntary, I’ll make due with the new reality.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 12:13:23 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:42:55AM -0700], [Dana Beal] wrote:

| >*** A virus was detected by the security administrator; this message
| >was discarded ***
|
| I have a Mac, no a p.c. I don’t see how I could be hitting people with a
| virus.

You’re not. ¬†This is qmail bouncing out shit which is attempting to fuck
with Outlook/Windoze. ¬†Personally I receive roughly 50 viruses a day — I
have a neat collection now — counting alla MindVox, we’re at maybe
150-200 kids dumping this crap upon us every day.

Whut I’m prolly gonna do is leave the list as it is, but throw a few
flags, and change the settings so that anybody who is NOT subscribed to
the list, cannot mail into it, without having it released by hand.  If
this becomes too much of a headache, it’s just gonna be closed to anybody
who is not subscribed. ¬†This shouldn’t be much of a problem, since the
only reason anyone who is not actually reading it, would have to send
email to it, is ranting, junk mail, or a virus!

By the way, I think various servers in France, all of Malaysia, and parts
of Japan, are currently automagically blocked — since 90% of the crap
which lands, is spoofed out of those places; which are more or less, swiss
cheese, in terms of “security.” ¬†So, uhm, if anybody knows someone from
those places who seemingly cannot subscribe to the list … this is why, I
hafta release their account by hand.

Anywaze, it ain’t you Dana, it’s SOME do0D attempting to spam the list
with crap.

Patrick

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine programs in NYC area??
Date: June 18, 2002 at 3:06:32 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

NYC is the ibogaine capital of the US. The treatment is pretty expensive and totally illegal in the US right now.
I have heard wonderful things about ibogaine and I’m sure if you search NYC long enough you may find some help.

J. Ostergard…AMMO..

To comply with federal law, we send everyone who wants it to a place where it is legal to administer it, depending on their economic resources. Of course, for penniless addicts, this makes for difficulties. They must find a sponsor. An Ibogaine working group has been formed to take up where ACT UP left off in pushing it through the various bureaucracies. Ibogaine would be approved in this country if anyone ever completed the FDA-approved clinical trial. Howard Lotsof can be contacted regarding this group.

The Ibogaine working group is pursuing forums in 6 major cities modeled on the one day forum that NIck put on in London in December. The following are a list of  cities and contacts:

Paris: Farid <gfarid@free.fr> Tel/fax : 01 44 93 93 57; Mobile: 06 14 81 56 79

San Franscisco: Julia Carter 707 987-8315/ 707 987-8303  or Nelson Commerci 415-567-0873

Detroit: Jay Statzer <jstatzer@qtm.net> 616-697-4521

Chicago: Robert Brunner 773-878-9336/773-519-9336

New York: Howard Lotsof 718-442-2754/ Dana Beal 212-677-4899

Seattle (@Harm Reduction Conference) 212-213-6376

Dana/cnw

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] more for rick, and what if drugs were legal?
Date: June 18, 2002 at 10:04:21 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Without viscerating my previous agreement with you in regard to the
government overstepping it’s authority, I don’t really give a shit what
Dan Russell or the AMA says.¬† Throw out all the terminology, and¬† I’ve
still seen THOUSANDS of people (many, perhaps even most, with few major
legal problems) whose lives have been completely decimated by the
so-called ‘jive term’¬† “habit-forming” in terms of “drug addiction.”
Disease, OD’s, destruction of relationships, poverty, sleeping on garage
floors, cotton-fever, abcesses, poor hygiene, unemployment, loss of
teeth, etc.¬† Define it however you will.¬† “Addiction” to an illicit drug
is, most typically, pretty destructive.¬† I’ve yet to see a person OD on
garlic, or hear of a guy giving head for a hit off the Oregano pipe.
Define it however you will.¬† “Addiction” to an illicit drug
is, most typically, pretty destructive.¬† I’ve yet to see a person OD on
garlic, or hear of a guy giving head for a hit off the Oregano pipe.<

You know, I think that was Russell’s point- That despite the fact that these and other plants¬†can have certain alkoloids isolated and removed hasn’t lead to making them illegal, so we don’t see the headgiving, etc. If they were isolated, introduced to the public, then¬†declared¬†illegal, I bet there’d be headgivers and other poor schmoes struggling to get ahold of their fix that once they were able to imbibe in and function, but now must spend their days chasing, coming up with the money for the seriously inflated by prohibition prices, contending with adulterants and poor dosage standards, hiding from cops and dealing with shady dealers, called junkies and criminals by friends, family, and even strangers and treated as such for merely imbibing, afraid to seek out help or admit they take “drugs” because of the legal and social repurcussions, etc. etc. I keep on wondering, (especially with my handy dilaudid perscription that I take every once in a while¬†that seems to cause no trouble for me at all whatsoever even with my seriously fucked up junky past- and my girlfriend doesn’t rag on me,¬†nor treat me¬†like a looser for¬†using what “drugs” I do¬†use regularly, like pot, or the occaisional dilaudid, or cup of poppy tea. She loves me, and understands that I am a person like any other person despite my fondness for altered conciousness and outright pain relief), if I had been able to get my dope without worrying about what else was in it, what cops might be waiting for me, if I could have paid the real price of what heroin should be, you know, about like aspirin, as it was back when Bayer was making it, would¬†my drug experiences have been a hell of a lot different? I imagine they might have been. I don’t seem to have any trouble with collapsed veins now, nor with constipation, to cover some points that were raised here a month or so back. Hell, what’s the difference in giving methadone instead of heroin, other than for methadone being much more viscious and harsh to the human body than heroin? Why¬†are we allowed¬†methadone, but not heroin? (It can’t possibly be because methadone doesn’t get people high, because while I never got high from it, I’ve seen scores, and knows scores, that do get high from it, and chase it just as hard as heroin, buying up extra every single day, doubling their doses in some cases or even more, so they can get more high from it, nodding off every afternoon, sweating and gibbering. Gee, come to think of it, I actually used to sweat and gibber a lot on methadone, so perhaps I did get somewhat “high” too. But I wasn’t chased by cops, knew I was getting my drug every day, knew it was methadone, not methadone and whatever else the dealer wanted to put into it, so it lasted the same amount of time every day, and therefore I was able to focus on other things finally.)
Stupid war. Prohibition sucks.

>Guilty by association.¬† Well, if you knew me, you would know that’s not
the case.¬† I am a different drummer, marching to no one elses beat.¬† I’m
the one to always play “devil’s advocate” because I LOVE rebelling
against the system of which I am part…most especially when I know I am
right.¬†¬†¬†I’m the one to always play “devil’s advocate” because I LOVE rebelling
against the system of which I am part…most especially when I know I am
right.  <

Opps, well then, I apologize, especially since I can empathize with that devilish advocacy. I was also mistaken then from reading the first post I replied to. Very cool to hear. I know a couple treatment folk here in NYC, working with both methadone and not, who are also expressing dissatisfaction with treatment modalities and the system as a whole. Keep on thoughtfully rebelling, please.
I don’t have anything against treatment, as long as it is entirely voluntary. As long as there are thoughtful people working in the treatment facilities, and they aren’t offering just one choice to their clients but a whole gamut of choices so they can find what works best for them, and not holding jail as a threat over people’s heads, then by all means, I am all for treatment. Otherwise, I’d rather give junkies dope, (and the rest of us health care for that matter), rather than spend money on locking people up for drug choices, be it in jails or treatment facilities.
Completely counter-productive.
I’m not saying you back forced treatment Rick, I’m really just kind of meandering here now, warming up for another full¬†day’s typing.;-))
Peace to all,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!

Thanks for the comments.¬† In actuality, I wasn’t speaking of you…I
don’t know you, so that’s not possible.¬† Nor was I speaking of myself.
I was primarily speaking toward the apathetic, lazy, do-nothing,
uninvolved sort of folks who don’t give a damn about much, and most
especially about drug addiction and treatment.  The fact that you are
involved, and a part of this list would indicate there is no wool over
your eyes.  By-and-large, however, the level of involvement of the vast
majority of people, leaves a lot to be desired.  Stand on the steps of
any state capitol during budget hearings…you’ll see a HORDE of MR
folks.¬† You’ll see a Moderate number of people concerned over MH
funding.  You can usually count on one or two hands the number of folks
who show up to lobby the $$$ holders as it relates to SA.  Perhaps I
spoke too quickly or harshly when I said the revolution was over, but
based on the current numbers and the level of advocacy I see, I have to
reiterate that the other guy won…until such time as more people get
involved and addiction is actually treated as a disease.  Cancer
patients sure aren’t thrown in jail…if they were there would be
immediate uprising and outcry.  Drug users go to jail every day with
very little outcry, and no change that I can see in that regard for the
future.¬† So who won? Or, more accurately, who’s winning?

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

>>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/14/02 10:15AM >>>

>Hi Rick,
>    Please speak for yourself, and not me, which is what I get from
your letter here.

Again, I don’t know you, so I’m not sure why you take this personally.
The nature of any public-forum commentary is that it is necessarily
generalized when making general comments on the general nature of the
current state of affairs.¬† Oddly, having stated that you don’t know me,
you refer to me as Rick-P, which would appear to me that you are calling
me a Prick. Yes?  Near the end of this post, you indicate that you have,
rightly, only seen me posting here lately.  As such, I must surmise that
you judge me a Prick based merely on the 5 or 6 things I have written
here (if that)…yet you proclaim there is no wool over your eyes.¬† From
whence comes the invective?

>The greatest lesson of Woodstock (for you dear Rick-P) was that if you
give (some) people a few
…cut…

>Same comment as above, please speak for yourself. Personalize this,
and please do not include me in your personal view of how you think
things are. There’s no wool over >my >eyes, thanks kindly. And if you
turn MTV on on my tv, you’ll be in trouble.

Abuse and addiction are those aspects of drug use that turn a persons
life into a miserable hell.¬† A person who is “using” a substance is
hardly an abuser or an addict.¬† Additionally, Nature just is…it
doesn’t “fuck up,”¬† nor does it give plants to us for myriad uses, as if
it is purposeful.  The various plants from which we isolate alkaloids
merely had longstanding survival value, or were discovered to have
cultivation value.  Some people can use these substances without having
any significant problems.  Others spend all their time, money, and
energy on them.

>”They” did actually isolate the much more potent alkaloids, but this
does not tell me that nature fucked up by creating the natural whole
plants that mix so well with my own >natural chemistry, nor that someone
else ‘created’ in me that most natural of desires, that of altering my
consciousness. Then “they” turned us into mindless comsumers of the
>idea that we are abusers and addicts for using the plants that nature,
(or god if that’s your perspective), gave us for myriad uses.

On some of the following point, we agree.  The government should have
no right to incarcerate a person for using or growing a psychoactive
substance in the privacy of their own home.  IMO, personalizing nature
is just a bunch of BS.  The desire to alter consciousness seems normal.
It seems to be a normal function of the brain.¬† That doesn’t preclude
the fact that this naturally occurring desire can be hijacked and turn
destructive.  Sex is natural.  If it is done in a non-dysfunctional way,
it conveys a lot of beneficial pleasure.¬† If I’m screwing 24-7 with
anyone that walks, consequences be damned, giving and receiving STD’s,
producing unwanted children, I would have to judge that the behavior has
become dysfunctional to the degree that it is self-destructive.

>”They” haven’t won anything, hence the continued war on those like
myself who never surrendered to their propaganda and lies, blaming
problems on my ‘drug’ use, (and other >non-socially sanctioned
behavioral traits, like critically thinking), as opposed to allowing me
to treat my problems by self medicating with the substances I was drawn
to, without >heaping huge stinking piles of prohibitionist merde on top
of me because of my choices, leaving me only the option of alkaloids,
instead of the entire plants as they were intended >to be used perhaps
by whatever power created them in the first place. Seems a bit conceited
to tell nature we can’t use the plants she supplies us as we choose,
that she is >wrong to have grown them, that humans somehow created the
desires to use those plants. Bah!!!!!.
Without viscerating my previous agreement with you in regard to the
government overstepping it’s authority, I don’t really give a shit what
Dan Russell or the AMA says.¬† Throw out all the terminology, and I’ve
still seen THOUSANDS of people (many, perhaps even most, with few major
legal problems) whose lives have been completely decimated by the
so-called ‘jive term’¬† “habit-forming” in terms of “drug addiction.”
Disease, OD’s, destruction of relationships, poverty, sleeping on garage
floors, cotton-fever, abcesses, poor hygiene, unemployment, loss of
teeth, etc.¬† Define it however you will.¬† “Addiction” to an illicit drug
is, most typically, pretty destructive.¬† I’ve yet to see a person OD on
garlic, or hear of a guy giving head for a hit off the Oregano pipe.

>¬† To quote my publisher Dan Russell’s book ‘Drug War’, (chapter :
White Hope – p 143) “The jive term ‘habit-forming’ will be applied to my
‘non-medical’ request, as if garlic, salt, >oregano, and coffee weren’t
equally habit forming. The AMA, (June 1, 1994), ‘discourages and
condemns illegal drug use and encourages physicians to do all in their
power to

>And is it possible that now that you are part of the System, (you are
the one treating drug ‘addicts’, no?), you don’t any longer find a need
to rebel, since
>the system has taken you in with open arms? That you now more feel a
need to conform to ‘their’ lies and propaganda, and feel a need to tell
those of us still engaged in >’revolution’ that we’re wrong, we’ve lost,
that it’d be better for us if we simply conformed?

Guilty by association.¬† Well, if you knew me, you would know that’s not
the case.¬† I am a different drummer, marching to no one elses beat.¬† I’m
the one to always play “devil’s advocate” because I LOVE rebelling
against the system of which I am part…most especially when I know I am
right.

But what are lies and propaganda?  I have found that most often they
stem from ANYONE who has ANY vested interest in supporting that for
which they argue.¬† Of course, that’s not always the case.¬† My first
operating principle is “Question everything”…especially if it is a
so-called “truth” that appeals to me.¬† I try to understand things as
objectively as I can, reading, researching, discussing, etc.  Then I
make an informed and thoughtful decision on my position, trying to be as
objective as possible.  Then I always leave room for more evidence, more
thought, and on a number of occasions, have even done the hard work of
throwing out sacred cows I held dear in order to adopt the new, and
better, understanding.   One of the most vexing things about my
character is that I can tell you what some of my cherished “beliefs”
are, as well as tell you why those cherished beliefs may very well be a
bunch of bullshit.¬† Those who don’t strive for objectivity, to me,
appear to be wearing too much wool.

Hopefully that hasn’t muddied up the waters too much.

 

 

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] May not be
Date: June 18, 2002 at 12:42:55 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

*** A virus was detected by the security administrator; this message
was discarded ***

I have a Mac, no a p.c. I don’t see how I could be hitting people with a virus.

dana/cnw

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine programs in NYC area??
Date: June 18, 2002 at 12:05:06 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

NYC is the ibogaine capital of the US. The treatment is pretty expensive and totally illegal in the US right now.
I have heard wonderful things about ibogaine and I’m sure if you search NYC long enough you may find some help.

J. Ostergard…AMMO..

From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Maia on 12 step
Date: June 17, 2002 at 7:16:27 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Further on this issue – when people start to tangle with
the issues underlying their substance use, there may be some
things related to how they were raised as children.

It happens that there is a program for this which lacks the
12-step programs’ theoretical baggage, Adult Survivors of
Child Abuse (ASCA). You can check it out at

http://www.ascasupport.org

Bill Ross

From: Joatammmo23@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Maia on 12 step
Date: June 17, 2002 at 4:51:03 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

While we are on the AA’s, (Alcohol Anonymous) (Narcotics anonymous)¬† and¬† now (Marijuana Anonymous) topic,¬† there¬† are much better support¬† group out here that don’t¬† go so far as to compremise your principals.¬† You¬† are¬† so right about¬† addiction being a spirtual movement to them rather than a medical problem.
And  the  very  thought of their orgs not  recognizing  methadone maintance  as a viable treatment  option keeps me  as far from them as I can  get.

Judith Ostergard…Advocates for Methadone Maintenance at Omaha
(AMMO)

From: Carrie Rollins <carrierollins@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Maia on 12 step
Date: June 17, 2002 at 4:29:49 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for posting that Dana. Cool book, I just
ordered it too ūüôā

-carrie

— HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 6/17/02 3:30:23 PM,
dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:

Yet it is important not to dismiss 12-step
programs entirely.
They provide a supportive community and
should be recommended as an option for
people with addictions.

Let evidence-based research determine
how people are treated medically for drug
problems.

Maia Szalavitz, a New York writer, is
co-author of “Recovery
Options: The Complete Guide” ( Wiley ).

Based on this article I purchased Maia’s book after
reviewing the table of
contents at amazon.com in hope that her evaluation
of just about all
treatment options might provide some insight as to
ibogaine + post treatment
therapy alternatives.  Maia even mentions ibogaine
including the normal
caveats of it being experimental and the reported
fatalities.

Check out the table of contents.

Howard

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! – Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Maia on 12 step
Date: June 17, 2002 at 3:43:04 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

In a message dated 6/17/02 3:30:23 PM, dana@cures-not-wars.org writes:

Yet it is important not to dismiss 12-step programs entirely.
They provide a supportive community and
should be recommended as an option for people with addictions.

Let evidence-based research determine
how people are treated medically for drug problems.

Maia Szalavitz, a New York writer, is co-author of “Recovery
Options: The Complete Guide” ( Wiley ).

Based on this article I purchased Maia’s book after reviewing the table of
contents at amazon.com in hope that her evaluation of just about all
treatment options might provide some insight as to ibogaine + post treatment
therapy alternatives.  Maia even mentions ibogaine including the normal
caveats of it being experimental and the reported fatalities.

Check out the table of contents.

Howard

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Maia on 12 step
Date: June 17, 2002 at 6:30:34 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Media Awareness Project

US: Breaking Out Of The 12-Step Lockstep

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1073.a09.html
Newshawk: anonymous
Pubdate: Sun, 09 Jun 2002
Source: Washington Post (DC)
Page: B03
Copyright: 2002 The Washington Post Company
Contact: letters@washpost.com
Website: http://www.washingtonpost.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/491
Author: Maia Szalavitz
Note: Maia Szalavitz, a New York writer, is co-author of
“Recovery Options:
The Complete Guide” (Wiley).

BREAKING OUT OF THE 12-STEP LOCKSTEP

In the 1980s and ’90s, 12-step programs like Alcoholics
Anonymous were the gold standard for addiction
treatment.  Even among the non-addicted, they had become an
accepted part of American culture.  In Tim
Robbins’s 1992 film, “The Player,” the title character
attended AA meetings not because he drank too
much but because that’s where the deals were being made. ¬†In
1995, New York magazine suggested that
single women attend AA to meet men.

But today, the recovery movement — with its emphasis on
childhood victimization, lifetime attendance at
12-step groups and complete abstinence from all psychoactive
substances — hasfallen from pop culture
favor. ¬†“There was a time when it was almost the ‘in thing’ to
say you were in recovery,” says William
White, author of “Slaying the Dragon,” a history of addiction
treatment.  Thankfully, that is no longer the
case.

Vogue, Elle and the New York Times Magazine have recently run
articles critical of the recovery
movement. ¬†The “addictions” section of the bookstore — once
taking up several bookcases in superstores —
has shrunk to a few shelves, with a growing proportion of
critical books. ¬†By the late ’90s, the number of
inpatient rehab facilities offering treatment centered on the
12-step process was half what it had been earlier
in the decade.  And AA membership, which grew explosively from
the late ’70s through the late ’80s, has
held steady at about 2 million since 1995.

Still, it is difficult to say goodbye to an organization and
philosophy that may have helped save my life.
Between the ages of 17 and 23, I was addicted to cocaine and
then heroin.  For the next 12 years, I was an
often enthusiastic participant in 12-step recovery.
Eventually, however, it became difficult to imagine
defining myself for the rest of my life in relation to
behavior that had taken up so few years of it.

During my last five years in the program, I had become
increasingly uncomfortable with what it presented
as truth: the notion, for example, that addiction is a
“chronic, progressive disease” that can only be arrested
by 12-stepping.  The more research I did, the more I learned
that much of what I had been told in rehab
was wrong. ¬†And yet, I’d indisputably gotten better. ¬†Once an
unemployed, 80-pound wreck, I had become
a healthy, productive science journalist.  That science part,
however, became the root of my problem with a
model based on anecdote as anodyne.

The 12-step model has always been rife with contradiction.
Its adherents recognize, for example, that
addiction is a disease, not a sin. ¬†But their treatment isn’t
medical; it’s praying, confession and meeting.
And while they claim that the belief in a “God of your
understanding” on which the program rests is
spiritual, not religious, every court that has ever been asked
whether ordering people into such programs
violates the separation of church and state has disagreed with
the “non-religious” label.

So why have the contradictions come to the fore now? For me,
the first step came in 2000 when I wrote
about New York’s Smithers Addiction Treatment and Research
Center and its attempts to modernize
treatment.  Its director, Alex DeLuca, saw that options needed
to be expanded beyond AA.  Guided by
DeLuca, Smithers began publishing studies funded by the
National Institute on Alcoholism and Alcohol
Abuse showing that adding treatment options, including support
for moderation rather than abstinence, was
effective.

However, when a group of people in recovery learned that those
options included moderation, they
protested, and DeLuca was fired.  Imagine cancer or AIDS
patients demonstrating against evidence-based
treatment offering more options.  This deeply distressed me,
as did AA’s religious aspects. ¬†In any other
area of medicine, if a physician told you the only cure for
your condition was to join a support group that
involves “turning your will and your life” over to God ( AA’s
third step ), you’d seek a second opinion.

The insistence on the primacy of God in curing addiction also
means that treatment can’t change in
response to empirical evidence.  Which leaves us with a rehab
system based more on faith than fact.
Nowhere is this clearer than in the field’s response to
medication use.  The National Institute on Drug
Abuse is pouring big bucks into developing “drugs to fight
drugs” but, once approved, they sit on the
shelves because many rehab facilities don’t believe in
medication.  Until 1997, for example, the well-known
rehab facility Hazelden refused to provide antidepressants to
people who had both depression and
addiction.

Those who promote just one means of recovery are right to find
medication threatening.  When I finally
tried antidepressants, after years of resisting “drugs”
because I’d been told they might lead to relapse, my
disillusionment with the recovery movement grew.  Years of
groups and talking couldn’t do what those pills
did: allow me not to overreact emotionally, and thus to
improve my relationships and worry less. ¬†I didn’t
need to “pray for my character defects to be lifted” ( AA’s
6th and 7th steps ) — I needed to fix my brain
chemistry.

This is not to say that I didn’t learn anything through
recovery groups.  The problem is their insistence that
their solutions should trump all others.  Many recovering
people now use medication and groups both —
but within the movement there is still an enormous hostility
toward this and a sense that people on
medications are somehow cheating by avoiding the pain that
leads to emotional growth.

Another contradiction in the notion of 12-step programs as a
medical treatment shows up in the judicial
system.  Logically, if addiction were a disease, prison and
laws would have no place in its treatment.
However, to secure support from the drug-war establishment,
many 12-step treatment providers argue that
addiction is a disease characterized by “denial” — despite
research showing thataddicts are no more likely
to be in denial than people with other diseases, and that most
addicts tell the truth about their drug use
when they won’t be punished for doing so.

Because of “denial,” however, many in-patient treatment
providers use methods that would be unheard of
for any other condition: restrictions on food and medications,
limits on sleep, hours of forced confessions
and public humiliation, bans on contact with relatives and, of
course, threats of prison for noncompliance.

If these programs wanted what was best for their patients,
they would support measures to fund more
treatment and divert people from jail.  Watching famous
12-steppers such as Martin Sheen fight against
California’s Proposition 36, which mandates treatment rather
than punishment for drug possession, was the
final straw for me.

If their argument is that people won’t attend treatment
without the threat of prison, how do they explain all
the alcoholics they treat? How, for that matter, do they
explain that 12-step programs were started by
volunteers? Their opposition only makes sense in the context
of a view of addicts as sinners, not patients.

The view that one can only recover via the moral improvement
of the 12 steps is doing more harm than
good.  It is supporting bad drug policy, preventing people
from getting the treatment they need and
hampering research.

Yet it is important not to dismiss 12-step programs entirely.
They provide a supportive community and
should be recommended as an option for people with addictions.
Let evidence-based research determine
how people are treated medically for drug problems.

Maia Szalavitz, a New York writer, is co-author of “Recovery
Options: The Complete Guide” ( Wiley ).

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] responce to rick about prick(?)
Date: June 17, 2002 at 2:58:40 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Sorry for my leap into the pit of idiocy…thanks for clearing it up.

Living in the Commonwealth of Virginia, I don’t often see a whole lot
of change…except for the negative.

Caught with drugs…lose your license. ¬†Go to jail for drugs, get fined
a bunch of $$$ and the suspension starts once you pay said fines.
Criminal record? ¬†Forget about finding a job. ¬†Oh yeah, you’d need a
driver’s license anyway. ¬†Drug charge? ¬†Too bad, but now we consider you
a high-risk driver, so your insurance is ridiculous.  Oh, yeah, we
seized your car anyway after we found your drugs in the trunk.  Pretty
scary.

A few months ago, I had a client on methadone who literally was living
on absolute rock-bottom…never worked a day in his life…never did
anything except get high.  In and out of prison numerous times.  Did a
complete turn-around…at 46, got a job, stabilized on methadone, moved
out of Mom’s, and got into NA, and a host of other positive things.
Nonetheless, he was definitely your three-strikes-and-your-out sort of
guy.  Due to some BS over being a convicted felon for drug charges, had
to deal with a bunch of unexpected emergency financial problems…he
hadn’t eaten in a couple of days in order to scrape $$$ together. ¬†Made
the mistake of pinching off a .55 candy bar and a soda.  He was popped
and assured he would be spending the rest of his life behind bars.
After 3 trial dates where the police and/or cashier couldn’t make it,
the judge decided to throw it out.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/17/02 02:20PM >>>
Oddly, having stated that you don’t know me,
| you refer to me as Rick-P, which would appear to me that you are
calling
| me a Prick. Yes?  Near the end of this post, you indicate that you
have,
| rightly, only seen me posting here lately.  As such, I must surmise
that
| you judge me a Prick based merely on the 5 or 6 things I have
written
| here (if that)…yet you proclaim there is no wool over your eyes.
From
| whence comes the invective?  <

Hello! (@$%!!&!) LOLOLOL!
Rick, no, you most definitely one hundred percent leapt to a
conclusion and took offense for nothing I’m happy to say. The P stands
for Preston, since it was a comment I inserted in the middle of one of
your quotes that I’d snipped from your original email, since I’d kept
our other comments separated into seperate paragraphs, I wanted it clear
it was my comment.
I wouldn’t bother to call you or most anyone a prick in an email,
certainly not after reading just one…well, I imagine there could be
some first posts that might lead me to suspect or even utter prickness
on the part of one person or other, but your’s did not lead me in that
direction. Besides, I try to keep away from such “invective”, finding
communication with is better than cursing at, and cursing leads to
tension, which leads to ill health and bad karma in some ways or others.
I simply found myself disagreeing with your apparent take that “they’ve”
won, and the “revolution” is killed off.
I see your points about the continued systemic oppression, and lack
of compassion, and also see much apathy among my fellow humans that
leaves me boggled and gobsmacked at times. But as Patrick points out,
this doesn’t mean things are hopeless, (you did note that, yes
Patrick?). There’s many out there, and here, who are aware, and more
becoming so all the time.
Peace,
Preston

—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won?????
Puh-leeeze!

On [Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:51:58AM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| Thanks for the comments. ¬†In actuality, I wasn’t speaking of
you…I
| don’t know you, so that’s not possible. ¬†Nor was I speaking of
myself.
| I was primarily speaking toward the apathetic, lazy, do-nothing,
| uninvolved sort of folks who don’t give a damn about much, and
most
| especially about drug addiction and treatment.  The fact that you
are
| involved, and a part of this list would indicate there is no wool
over
| your eyes.  By-and-large, however, the level of involvement of the
vast
| majority of people, leaves a lot to be desired.  Stand on the steps
of
| any state capitol during budget hearings…you’ll see a HORDE of
MR
| folks. ¬†You’ll see a Moderate number of people concerned over MH
| funding.  You can usually count on one or two hands the number of
folks
| who show up to lobby the $$$ holders as it relates to SA.  Perhaps
I
| spoke too quickly or harshly when I said the revolution was over,
but
| based on the current numbers and the level of advocacy I see, I
have to
| reiterate that the other guy won…until such time as more people
get
| involved and addiction is actually treated as a disease.  Cancer
| patients sure aren’t thrown in jail…if they were there would be
| immediate uprising and outcry.  Drug users go to jail every day
with
| very little outcry, and no change that I can see in that regard for
the
| future. ¬†So who won? Or, more accurately, who’s winning?

I don’t have a lotta time right now, but just to address the main
point
type thing you’ve brought up… ¬†Perhaps it’s Just Me, but thus far
it has
been my life’s experience that people in general do not care about
issues
which are not directly effecting THEIR lives.  Be that drug
addiction,
treatment, or those wacked out towel-heads living in weird countries
nobody has ever heard of, someplace on the other side of the planet.
What
the fuck is their problem anyway…?

I sorta think this is just human nature.

On the flipside, I don’t really see it as hopeless. ¬†Because drug
dependence is highly unprejudiced.  It crosses socio-economic
boundaries
just Super Fine, and doesn’t much care what color your skin is, or
how ya
vote. ¬†And since I’m not really too anonymous, this weird THING has
starting happening in the last 2 years or so… ¬†A lot of people who
you
really wouldn’t expect to hear it from, will start talking about
their
problems, or drag out the fact that, oh, by the way, their brother,
sister, son, daughter, is a…. JUNKIE! (usually said in same tone
of
voice, which is reserved for CHILD MOLESTER and/or Axe Murderer)
What do
I do about that!?!?!?

| Again, I don’t know you, so I’m not sure why you take this
personally.
| The nature of any public-forum commentary is that it is
necessarily
| generalized when making general comments on the general nature of
the
| current state of affairs. ¬†Oddly, having stated that you don’t know
me,
| you refer to me as Rick-P, which would appear to me that you are
calling
| me a Prick. Yes?  Near the end of this post, you indicate that you
have,
| rightly, only seen me posting here lately.  As such, I must surmise
that
| you judge me a Prick based merely on the 5 or 6 things I have
written
| here (if that)…yet you proclaim there is no wool over your eyes.
From
| whence comes the invective?

Hey, I haven’t really followed this word for word, but knowing
Preston I
really don’t think that’s whut he meant. ¬†He’s not like that yo…
Taking
whatcha wrote and processing it as an exposition/journeying through
time,
first person kinda thing … it’s pretty cool and very vivid. ¬†Taking
it
personally, and I could see why someone who wasn’t even alive back
then
(and that includes me, I was born in 1969), and is doing whatever
they can
to shed light through the darkness of the here n now… ¬†Well, they
might
be slightly offended — even if no offense was meant.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 17, 2002 at 2:40:30 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

digital@phantom.com 06/17/02 01:50PM >>>
I don’t have a lotta time right now, but just to address the main
point
type thing you’ve brought up… ¬†Perhaps it’s Just Me, but thus far it
has
been my life’s experience that people in general do not care about
issues
which are not directly effecting THEIR lives.  Be that drug
addiction,
treatment, or those wacked out towel-heads living in weird countries
nobody has ever heard of, someplace on the other side of the planet.
What
the fuck is their problem anyway…?

I sorta think this is just human nature.

Very good point. ¬†Most likely just human nature, as you say. ¬†It’s high
time that human nature begin leaping forward.  An old friend, who
eventually trailed off into full blown destruction, once related that he
thought everyone needed to drop acid at least once.  Though, of course,
I could never openly advocate such a position, I wonder what would
happen if every person judged as “wound up just a little too tight,” was
required to watch the walls breath for a few days.  I imagine it might
very well change the world. ¬†The “dangers” of LSD amounts to a whole
lotta wool pulled over a whole lotta eyes.

On the flipside, I don’t really see it as hopeless. ¬†Because drug
dependence is highly unprejudiced.  It crosses socio-economic
boundaries
just Super Fine, and doesn’t much care what color your skin is, or how
ya
vote. ¬†And since I’m not really too anonymous, this weird THING has
starting happening in the last 2 years or so… ¬†A lot of people who
you
really wouldn’t expect to hear it from, will start talking about
their
problems, or drag out the fact that, oh, by the way, their brother,
sister, son, daughter, is a…. JUNKIE! (usually said in same tone of
voice, which is reserved for CHILD MOLESTER and/or Axe Murderer)  What
do
I do about that!?!?!?

That’s EXACTLY what I’m talking about…hushed tones, shame, etc. ¬†The
damned AMA and the APA call addiction a disease.  It looks like a
disease, walks like a disease, talks like a disease, it just might be a
disease. ¬†But the average layperson often feels that it’s a bunch of
bullshit…and, often, so do family members who speak in hushed tones.
What do you do?? ¬†The same thing I do…challenge their “speak no evil,”
by putting a face on addiction. ¬†Friends ask me what “junkys” are like.
My reply: They’re like you…your wife, your sister, your Mom, etc.
After a number of follow-ups, I usually get around to talking about
stereotypes and helping them understand that addicts are just people.  I
encourage people who have family members who are users to speak
boldly…they have nothing to be ashamed of…nor does the addict. ¬†The
more addicts are willing to “come out of the closet,” the more the
general public will see that they are, indeed, the guy next door, and
not some beast to be feared.  Light dispels the darkness and mystery.

Hey, I haven’t really followed this word for word, but knowing Preston
I
really don’t think that’s whut he meant. ¬†He’s not like that yo…
Taking
whatcha wrote and processing it as an exposition/journeying through
time,
first person kinda thing … it’s pretty cool and very vivid. ¬†Taking
it
personally, and I could see why someone who wasn’t even alive back
then
(and that includes me, I was born in 1969), and is doing whatever they
can
to shed light through the darkness of the here n now… ¬†Well, they
might
be slightly offended — even if no offense was meant.

Gotcha. I’ll take your word for it unless I’m told differently. ¬†It is
very easy to misunderstand and be misunderstood in print. ¬†That’s why I
rarely take offence…even from those who are blatantly offensive in
person. ¬†In fact, I usually just tell myself, “I can’t stand this
asshole, so I’m just going to have to get to know them better.” ¬†I can
honestly say there have only been three people in this life that I have
hated. ¬†I too often forget that others don’t have this ability, so I’m
usually offending someone.  IMHO, taking offense is most often a big
waste of time and energy.  There are more important things to be
concerned about.

Thanks Patrick.

From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] responce to rick about prick(?)
Date: June 17, 2002 at 2:20:11 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

>Oddly, having stated that you don’t know me,
| you refer to me as Rick-P, which would appear to me that you are calling
| me a Prick. Yes?  Near the end of this post, you indicate that you have,
| rightly, only seen me posting here lately.  As such, I must surmise that
| you judge me a Prick based merely on the 5 or 6 things I have written
| here (if that)…yet you proclaim there is no wool over your eyes.¬† From
| whence comes the invective?  <

Hello! (@$%!!&!) LOLOLOL!
Rick, no, you most definitely one hundred percent leapt to a conclusion and took offense for nothing I’m happy to say. The P stands for Preston, since it was a comment I inserted in the middle of one of your quotes that I’d snipped from your original email, since I’d kept our other comments separated into seperate paragraphs, I wanted it clear it was my comment.
I wouldn’t bother to call you or most anyone a prick in an email, certainly not¬†after reading¬†just one…well, I imagine there could be some first posts that might lead me to suspect or even utter¬†prickness on the part of one person or other, but your’s did not lead me in that direction. Besides, I try to keep away >from such “invective”, finding communication with is better than cursing at, and cursing leads to tension, which leads to ill health and bad karma in¬†some ways or others. I simply found myself disagreeing with your apparent take that “they’ve” won, and the “revolution” is killed off.
I see your points about the continued systemic oppression, and lack of compassion, and also see much apathy among my fellow humans¬†that leaves me boggled and gobsmacked at times. But as Patrick points out, this doesn’t mean things are hopeless, (you did note that, yes Patrick?). There’s many out there, and here, who are aware, and more becoming so all the time.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!

On [Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:51:58AM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| Thanks for the comments.¬† In actuality, I wasn’t speaking of you…I
| don’t know you, so that’s not possible.¬† Nor was I speaking of myself.
| I was primarily speaking toward the apathetic, lazy, do-nothing,
| uninvolved sort of folks who don’t give a damn about much, and most
| especially about drug addiction and treatment.  The fact that you are
| involved, and a part of this list would indicate there is no wool over
| your eyes.  By-and-large, however, the level of involvement of the vast
| majority of people, leaves a lot to be desired.  Stand on the steps of
| any state capitol during budget hearings…you’ll see a HORDE of MR
| folks.¬† You’ll see a Moderate number of people concerned over MH
| funding.  You can usually count on one or two hands the number of folks
| who show up to lobby the $$$ holders as it relates to SA.  Perhaps I
| spoke too quickly or harshly when I said the revolution was over, but
| based on the current numbers and the level of advocacy I see, I have to
| reiterate that the other guy won…until such time as more people get
| involved and addiction is actually treated as a disease.  Cancer
| patients sure aren’t thrown in jail…if they were there would be
| immediate uprising and outcry.  Drug users go to jail every day with
| very little outcry, and no change that I can see in that regard for the
| future.¬† So who won? Or, more accurately, who’s winning?

I don’t have a lotta time right now, but just to address the main point
type thing you’ve brought up…¬† Perhaps it’s Just Me, but thus far it has
been my life’s experience that people in general do not care about issues
which are not directly effecting THEIR lives.  Be that drug addiction,
treatment, or those wacked out towel-heads living in weird countries
nobody has ever heard of, someplace on the other side of the planet.  What
the fuck is their problem anyway…?

I sorta think this is just human nature.

On the flipside, I don’t really see it as hopeless.¬† Because drug
dependence is highly unprejudiced.  It crosses socio-economic boundaries
just Super Fine, and doesn’t much care what color your skin is, or how ya
vote.¬† And since I’m not really too anonymous, this weird THING has
starting happening in the last 2 years or so…¬† A lot of people who you
really wouldn’t expect to hear it from, will start talking about their
problems, or drag out the fact that, oh, by the way, their brother,
sister, son, daughter, is a…. JUNKIE! (usually said in same tone of
voice, which is reserved for CHILD MOLESTER and/or Axe Murderer)  What do
I do about that!?!?!?

| Again, I don’t know you, so I’m not sure why you take this personally.
| The nature of any public-forum commentary is that it is necessarily
| generalized when making general comments on the general nature of the
| current state of affairs.¬† Oddly, having stated that you don’t know me,
| you refer to me as Rick-P, which would appear to me that you are calling
| me a Prick. Yes?  Near the end of this post, you indicate that you have,
| rightly, only seen me posting here lately.  As such, I must surmise that
| you judge me a Prick based merely on the 5 or 6 things I have written
| here (if that)…yet you proclaim there is no wool over your eyes.¬† From
| whence comes the invective?

Hey, I haven’t really followed this word for word, but knowing Preston I
really don’t think that’s whut he meant.¬† He’s not like that yo…¬† Taking
whatcha wrote and processing it as an exposition/journeying through time,
first person kinda thing … it’s pretty cool and very vivid.¬† Taking it
personally, and I could see why someone who wasn’t even alive back then
(and that includes me, I was born in 1969), and is doing whatever they can
to shed light through the darkness of the here n now…¬† Well, they might
be slightly offended — even if no offense was meant.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 17, 2002 at 1:50:38 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

On [Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:51:58AM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:

| Thanks for the comments. ¬†In actuality, I wasn’t speaking of you…I
| don’t know you, so that’s not possible. ¬†Nor was I speaking of myself.
| I was primarily speaking toward the apathetic, lazy, do-nothing,
| uninvolved sort of folks who don’t give a damn about much, and most
| especially about drug addiction and treatment.  The fact that you are
| involved, and a part of this list would indicate there is no wool over
| your eyes.  By-and-large, however, the level of involvement of the vast
| majority of people, leaves a lot to be desired.  Stand on the steps of
| any state capitol during budget hearings…you’ll see a HORDE of MR
| folks. ¬†You’ll see a Moderate number of people concerned over MH
| funding.  You can usually count on one or two hands the number of folks
| who show up to lobby the $$$ holders as it relates to SA.  Perhaps I
| spoke too quickly or harshly when I said the revolution was over, but
| based on the current numbers and the level of advocacy I see, I have to
| reiterate that the other guy won…until such time as more people get
| involved and addiction is actually treated as a disease.  Cancer
| patients sure aren’t thrown in jail…if they were there would be
| immediate uprising and outcry.  Drug users go to jail every day with
| very little outcry, and no change that I can see in that regard for the
| future. ¬†So who won? Or, more accurately, who’s winning?

I don’t have a lotta time right now, but just to address the main point
type thing you’ve brought up… ¬†Perhaps it’s Just Me, but thus far it has
been my life’s experience that people in general do not care about issues
which are not directly effecting THEIR lives.  Be that drug addiction,
treatment, or those wacked out towel-heads living in weird countries
nobody has ever heard of, someplace on the other side of the planet.  What
the fuck is their problem anyway…?

I sorta think this is just human nature.

On the flipside, I don’t really see it as hopeless. ¬†Because drug
dependence is highly unprejudiced.  It crosses socio-economic boundaries
just Super Fine, and doesn’t much care what color your skin is, or how ya
vote. ¬†And since I’m not really too anonymous, this weird THING has
starting happening in the last 2 years or so… ¬†A lot of people who you
really wouldn’t expect to hear it from, will start talking about their
problems, or drag out the fact that, oh, by the way, their brother,
sister, son, daughter, is a…. JUNKIE! (usually said in same tone of
voice, which is reserved for CHILD MOLESTER and/or Axe Murderer)  What do
I do about that!?!?!?

| Again, I don’t know you, so I’m not sure why you take this personally.
| The nature of any public-forum commentary is that it is necessarily
| generalized when making general comments on the general nature of the
| current state of affairs. ¬†Oddly, having stated that you don’t know me,
| you refer to me as Rick-P, which would appear to me that you are calling
| me a Prick. Yes?  Near the end of this post, you indicate that you have,
| rightly, only seen me posting here lately.  As such, I must surmise that
| you judge me a Prick based merely on the 5 or 6 things I have written
| here (if that)…yet you proclaim there is no wool over your eyes. ¬†From
| whence comes the invective?

Hey, I haven’t really followed this word for word, but knowing Preston I
really don’t think that’s whut he meant. ¬†He’s not like that yo… ¬†Taking
whatcha wrote and processing it as an exposition/journeying through time,
first person kinda thing … it’s pretty cool and very vivid. ¬†Taking it
personally, and I could see why someone who wasn’t even alive back then
(and that includes me, I was born in 1969), and is doing whatever they can
to shed light through the darkness of the here n now… ¬†Well, they might
be slightly offended — even if no offense was meant.

Just saying,

Patrick

From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine programs in NYC area??
Date: June 17, 2002 at 4:23:25 PM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Anybody know anything about any IBOGAINE programs in NYC area? I have an
acquaintence who needs serious help like that. But he has no money to speak
of. What is the best thing to do?
Thanks
— stv

An ibogaine working goup is starting up. Maybe pressure can be
brought on Bloomberg, or his assistant Rbt. Busan.

Picket Busan?

Dana/cnw

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Blowing off steam
Date: June 17, 2002 at 12:11:11 PM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

This is the ridiculous kind of crap that needs to end.  To make a long
story short:
1.  A few months ago, we switched to oral drug testing.
2.  After a large number of confirmed false positives (via LCMS
retesting), we decided to go back to urine testing.
3.  To use up the supply of oral tests, the nurses still do them on a
semi-regular basis.

My gripes:
4. ¬†Patient #1…not enough to retest the sample. ¬†The positive stands.
Never mind that he’s been drug-free for 3-4 years. ¬†Sorry about you
losing them take-homes, buddy, and screwing with your work schedule.
5. ¬†Patient #2…the LCMS comes back a confirmed NEGATIVE. ¬†Well, it
doesn’t matter…”he got a urine screen a day or two later that was
positive” as well. ¬†So I kindly reply, “when he comes in, ¬†remind him he
can do GCMS confirmation if he wishes.” ¬†The response? ¬†“Why
bother…he’s obviously dirty.” ¬†After a lengthy explanation…”I still
don’t know why he’d want to waste his money?” ¬†Hello!!! ¬†Pretty scary.

I could go on.  I never cease to be amazed at the sheer idiocy that can
goes on. ¬†Guess I get to “fight the good fight” again in our staff
meeting this week.

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

From: stv jns <stvjns@gargoylemechanique.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ibogaine programs in NYC area??
Date: June 17, 2002 at 6:51:47 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Hi
Anybody know anything about any IBOGAINE programs in NYC area? I have an
acquaintence who needs serious help like that. But he has no money to speak
of. What is the best thing to do?
Thanks
— stv

From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 17, 2002 at 9:51:58 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

Thanks for the comments. ¬†In actuality, I wasn’t speaking of you…I
don’t know you, so that’s not possible. ¬†Nor was I speaking of myself.
I was primarily speaking toward the apathetic, lazy, do-nothing,
uninvolved sort of folks who don’t give a damn about much, and most
especially about drug addiction and treatment.  The fact that you are
involved, and a part of this list would indicate there is no wool over
your eyes.  By-and-large, however, the level of involvement of the vast
majority of people, leaves a lot to be desired.  Stand on the steps of
any state capitol during budget hearings…you’ll see a HORDE of MR
folks. ¬†You’ll see a Moderate number of people concerned over MH
funding.  You can usually count on one or two hands the number of folks
who show up to lobby the $$$ holders as it relates to SA.  Perhaps I
spoke too quickly or harshly when I said the revolution was over, but
based on the current numbers and the level of advocacy I see, I have to
reiterate that the other guy won…until such time as more people get
involved and addiction is actually treated as a disease.  Cancer
patients sure aren’t thrown in jail…if they were there would be
immediate uprising and outcry.  Drug users go to jail every day with
very little outcry, and no change that I can see in that regard for the
future. ¬†So who won? Or, more accurately, who’s winning?

_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton,  VA  23666

Office:  (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax:  (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________

ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 06/14/02 10:15AM >>>

Hi Rick,
Please speak for yourself, and not me, which is what I get from
your letter here.

Again, I don’t know you, so I’m not sure why you take this personally.
The nature of any public-forum commentary is that it is necessarily
generalized when making general comments on the general nature of the
current state of affairs. ¬†Oddly, having stated that you don’t know me,
you refer to me as Rick-P, which would appear to me that you are calling
me a Prick. Yes?  Near the end of this post, you indicate that you have,
rightly, only seen me posting here lately.  As such, I must surmise that
you judge me a Prick based merely on the 5 or 6 things I have written
here (if that)…yet you proclaim there is no wool over your eyes. ¬†From
whence comes the invective?

The greatest lesson of Woodstock (for you dear Rick-P) was that if you
give (some) people a few
…cut…

Same comment as above, please speak for yourself. Personalize this,
and please do not include me in your personal view of how you think
things are. There’s no wool over >my >eyes, thanks kindly. And if you
turn MTV on on my tv, you’ll be in trouble.

Abuse and addiction are those aspects of drug use that turn a persons
life into a miserable hell. ¬†A person who is “using” a substance is
hardly an abuser or an addict. ¬†Additionally, Nature just is…it
doesn’t “fuck up,” ¬†nor does it give plants to us for myriad uses, as if
it is purposeful.  The various plants from which we isolate alkaloids
merely had longstanding survival value, or were discovered to have
cultivation value.  Some people can use these substances without having
any significant problems.  Others spend all their time, money, and
energy on them.

“They” did actually isolate the much more potent alkaloids, but this
does not tell me that nature fucked up by creating the natural whole
plants that mix so well with my own >natural chemistry, nor that someone
else ‘created’ in me that most natural of desires, that of altering my
consciousness. Then “they” turned us into mindless comsumers of the
idea that we are abusers and addicts for using the plants that nature,
(or god if that’s your perspective), gave us for myriad uses.

On some of the following point, we agree.  The government should have
no right to incarcerate a person for using or growing a psychoactive
substance in the privacy of their own home.  IMO, personalizing nature
is just a bunch of BS.  The desire to alter consciousness seems normal.
It seems to be a normal function of the brain. ¬†That doesn’t preclude
the fact that this naturally occurring desire can be hijacked and turn
destructive.  Sex is natural.  If it is done in a non-dysfunctional way,
it conveys a lot of beneficial pleasure. ¬†If I’m screwing 24-7 with
anyone that walks, consequences be damned, giving and receiving STD’s,
producing unwanted children, I would have to judge that the behavior has
become dysfunctional to the degree that it is self-destructive.

“They” haven’t won anything, hence the continued war on those like
myself who never surrendered to their propaganda and lies, blaming
problems on my ‘drug’ use, (and other >non-socially sanctioned
behavioral traits, like critically thinking), as opposed to allowing me
to treat my problems by self medicating with the substances I was drawn
to, without >heaping huge stinking piles of prohibitionist merde on top
of me because of my choices, leaving me only the option of alkaloids,
instead of the entire plants as they were intended >to be used perhaps
by whatever power created them in the first place. Seems a bit conceited
to tell nature we can’t use the plants she supplies us as we choose,
that she is >wrong to have grown them, that humans somehow created the
desires to use those plants. Bah!!!!!.

Without viscerating my previous agreement with you in regard to the
government overstepping it’s authority, I don’t really give a shit what
Dan Russell or the AMA says. ¬†Throw out all the terminology, and I’ve
still seen THOUSANDS of people (many, perhaps even most, with few major
legal problems) whose lives have been completely decimated by the
so-called ‘jive term’ ¬†“habit-forming” in terms of “drug addiction.”
Disease, OD’s, destruction of relationships, poverty, sleeping on garage
floors, cotton-fever, abcesses, poor hygiene, unemployment, loss of
teeth, etc. ¬†Define it however you will. ¬†“Addiction” to an illicit drug
is, most typically, pretty destructive. ¬†I’ve yet to see a person OD on
garlic, or hear of a guy giving head for a hit off the Oregano pipe.

To quote my publisher Dan Russell’s book ‘Drug War’, (chapter :
White Hope – p 143) “The jive term ‘habit-forming’ will be applied to my
‘non-medical’ request, as if garlic, salt, >oregano, and coffee weren’t
equally habit forming. The AMA, (June 1, 1994), ‘discourages and
condemns illegal drug use and encourages physicians to do all in their
power to

And is it possible that now that you are part of the System, (you are
the one treating drug ‘addicts’, no?), you don’t any longer find a need
to rebel, since
the system has taken you in with open arms? That you now more feel a
need to conform to ‘their’ lies and propaganda, and feel a need to tell
those of us still engaged in >’revolution’ that we’re wrong, we’ve lost,
that it’d be better for us if we simply conformed?

Guilty by association. ¬†Well, if you knew me, you would know that’s not
the case. ¬†I am a different drummer, marching to no one elses beat. ¬†I’m
the one to always play “devil’s advocate” because I LOVE rebelling
against the system of which I am part…most especially when I know I am
right.

But what are lies and propaganda?  I have found that most often they
stem from ANYONE who has ANY vested interest in supporting that for
which they argue. ¬†Of course, that’s not always the case. ¬†My first
operating principle is “Question everything”…especially if it is a
so-called “truth” that appeals to me. ¬†I try to understand things as
objectively as I can, reading, researching, discussing, etc.  Then I
make an informed and thoughtful decision on my position, trying to be as
objective as possible.  Then I always leave room for more evidence, more
thought, and on a number of occasions, have even done the hard work of
throwing out sacred cows I held dear in order to adopt the new, and
better, understanding.   One of the most vexing things about my
character is that I can tell you what some of my cherished “beliefs”
are, as well as tell you why those cherished beliefs may very well be a
bunch of bullshit. ¬†Those who don’t strive for objectivity, to me,
appear to be wearing too much wool.

Hopefully that hasn’t muddied up the waters too much.

From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibo in australia
Date: June 17, 2002 at 7:13:43 AM EDT
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

on 6/14/02 10:01 AM, Stratton Fox at strattonfox@bigpond.com wrote:

Sorry for taking so long to respond and it may be outdated. I have been moving house.
If you need any help on this please write to me. I have considerable experience in treating people and am in process of writing up my experiences over the last year- what to watch for, what to prepare for etc. Lots of material.

Good luck

Hattie
Hi
i’m trying to set up an ibo thing
in australia
on the west coast
get back to me on this

Stratton fox

From: “Carl Nyblom-Waltenburg” <ibogalab@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] was dream, now is- ‘they’ won????? Puh-leeeze!
Date: June 17, 2002 at 1:48:37 AM EDT
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com

“God bless America,Jesus saves & Moses invests”
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/09.17A.pitt.clarity.htm
as one making space medicine for drug war victims,I am appalled…
These conditions look Burmese,being