Ibogaine List Archives – 2005-11

From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Just kinda noticing
Date: November 30, 2005 at 11:25:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Seems like our IBO peeps kinda withdraw for a while after treatment. No complaints, just an observation. I’m sure a rigorous “Readjustment” involves a rethinking of life and calling out in it’s entirety.
Just wandering aimlessly, wondering about Kirk and Brenda. Luv ya too, Matt.
I’ll shut up now….
Bee
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 11:09:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lee,
In a perfect world, where I could obtain this stuff, if you were 205 and had access to HCL, what would you think about? Quantity-wise??
Lee Albert wrote:
Pascal,
189lbs=approx.86Kg. At 86kg, 1.5grams=17.4mg/kg, a pretty strong dose for a first time if you are not drug dependent. If you check the amounts required for drug dependence you will see that with a body weight of 70kg over 1g is taken.
The reason you probably didn’t get an answer is because this is well documented and so your question got overlooked I imagine.
Hope that helps.
Lee
pascall roland <pascal-roland@hotmail.com> wrote:
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
it seems to be more comfortable to comment endlessly about iboga’s effect on
ego/mind than elaborating on iboga’s ways of use and consumption.
this leaves me the impression that those who worked on iboga remained
someway in the realm of experimentary ways, leaving out the scientific
approach.
only the Bwitis might be able to keep out of the scientific approach, as
they benefit of a long, old oral tradition.
sincerely,
P.R.
>From: Nowwarat@aol.com
>To: pascal-roland@hotmail.com
>Subject: questions
>Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:06:34 EST
>
>Add to those thoughtful questions another one. Has anyone actually taken
>over one gram of Ibo Hcl? People say to take one and a half grams if you
>weight
>around189. But people talk about taking one gram but not more. At least in
>my
>brief research.
>
>Bruce
_________________________________________________________________
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 11:00:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I gotta pick on this one….Not you, Lee, response much appreciated and noted.
it seems to be more comfortable to comment endlessly about iboga’s effect on
ego/mind than elaborating on iboga’s ways of use and consumption.
The two are interrelated, the “Endlessly” adjective impunes your quest. I get fed up here, too, and the group has been more than patient with me. Think of this as a dinner party and you had just made that announcement. We are not here solely for you, and etiquette gets respect.
this leaves me the impression that those who worked on iboga remained
someway in the realm of experimentary ways, leaving out the scientific
approach.
One, it IS experimental, and two, scientific “Approach” by it’s name, implies experimentation. The words “Worked” and “Remained” imply the past tense, you have simply nullified your own sentence. You cannot “Have worked” on an “Approach”, either there is a conclusion or it is ongoing, and leaving out “Approach” from “Working” or worked negates the action. Kinda like saying ” The chain fell off my bicycle, therefore, no thought was ever given to my bicycle chain, other than an experiment, and those that thought of it obviously didn’t comprehend that if it could fall off and be useless, that it wasn’t needed in the first place”. Is that “Someway in the realm” of whatever you meant to say?
only the Bwitis might be able to keep out of the scientific approach, as
they benefit of a long, old oral tradition.
I’d be really appreciative if you could state your point, rather than your dissatisfaction. This is Rain Forest stuff, hidden knowledge, we have Doctors here, and, there is no formula derived as of yet. Sorry. The alternative is to buy a bag of dirt from some guy with no teeth, cook it up and inject it, bypassing ANY natural abilities to filter out garbage BEFORE it gets to our brain, as well as bypass any common sense. Then, by demanding fatality rates and wrapping prejucial questions,  possible eradication of an epidemic is overlooked.  Hear me, I said “Possible”. Much research needs and will be done.
I got gripes about this place, too, dude, but I think you have underestimated the clientele. We actually form ideas here, if you wanna spout disassociative drivel, please form cognitive sentences or at least don’t complain that you are being ignored.
Bee
Lee Albert wrote:
Pascal,
189lbs=approx.86Kg. At 86kg, 1.5grams=17.4mg/kg, a pretty strong dose for a first time if you are not drug dependent. If you check the amounts required for drug dependence you will see that with a body weight of 70kg over 1g is taken.
The reason you probably didn’t get an answer is because this is well documented and so your question got overlooked I imagine.
Hope that helps.
Lee
pascall roland <pascal-roland@hotmail.com> wrote:
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
it seems to be more comfortable to comment endlessly about iboga’s effect on
ego/mind than elaborating on iboga’s ways of use and consumption.
this leaves me the impression that those who worked on iboga remained
someway in the realm of experimentary ways, leaving out the scientific
approach.
only the Bwitis might be able to keep out of the scientific approach, as
they benefit of a long, old oral tradition.
sincerely,
P.R.
>From: Nowwarat@aol.com
>To: pascal-roland@hotmail.com
>Subject: questions
>Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:06:34 EST
>
>Add to those thoughtful questions another one. Has anyone actually taken
>over one gram of Ibo Hcl? People say to take one and a half grams if you
>weight
>around189. But people talk about taking one gram but not more. At least in
>my
>brief research.
>
>Bruce
_________________________________________________________________
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 7:45:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Vec, be nice, jeez!
Vector Vector wrote:
Everything that Jon said 😉
Besides that you’re asking the same questions that have already been
asked and answered here 2000 times, so I’d guess that the people most
qualified to give your answers have gotten bored of it by now and may
occasionally say something if they read your message. This list can be
very high traffic sometimes and alot of people only read messages from
authors whose names they recongize and are interested in. or who use a
descriptive subject line 😉
If you had looked, the same people here who would answer have already
written out detailed articles about the exact things you asked anyway.
http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html
‘Standard’ treatment dose from above and
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/Articles/MAPS-Ibogaine.pdf
16-18 mg per kg, so obviously many people are doing more then a gram at
once for addiction interruption.
Lots of people here have detoxed from 10 years plus on opiates, high
doses of methadone, and so on.
Every question you asked can be answered using the first page of google
http://www.google.com/search?q=ibogaine
Which leads you right back to the main ibogaine sites, Howard’s
ibogaine.org, Nick’s ibogaine.co.uk, Patrick and Mindvox (you are here)
and Dana Beal’s site.
If you’d bothered to do even the most basic research and then asked
more questions, probably people would have been more helpful. Expecting
people to act as your personal help desk and reference for no charge is
maybe asking a bit much 😉
Still no matter what, there’s always going to be someone here who will
give you their personal experience.
.:vector:.
— jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
Nevertheless, and even so I did not complete all the reading as I
should, the impression grows that after over 40 years of
experimental
studies and numerous clinical observations, not neglectable grey
zones
remain. At least, that’s how it appears to me by now, and that’s
the
main reason making me hesitating to book a ticket on an iboga
aeroplane.
Well, think about this… how many people have taken ibogaine in the
last 40 years? maybe a few thousand?
Now, how many people have smoked cannabis in the same time? a few
hundred million? maybe more?
And we’re not a much closer to a full understanding of how cannabis
works than we are to a full understanding of how ibogaine works. In
fact, we’ve only had an inkling of how cannabis works for the past 15
years, while we’ve had some idea how ibogaine works for the past 20
years or so.
Now, I don’t know if those usage numbers are quite right, but you get
my
point. It takes a long time and many, many administrations (and
usually
lots of money) to understand how a drug works. Make no mistake,
ibogaine
is an EXPERIMENTAL medication. While we have some idea how best to
use
it, thanks to the many years of hard work of people like Howard, Dr.
Mash, etc., we still have a great deal to learn about it. And the
only
way we can learn more about it is by observing more people who take
it.
If you decide to take ibogaine, you are, at least in some sense,
volunteering as a guinea pig.
Whether or not ibogaine is a good choice for you can only be decided
by
YOU. How badly do you need to get off your drug of choice? How much
risk
is it worth taking to try to get clean?
For example, compared to the risks of shooting heroin every day, the
risks of taking ibogaine are minimal. Yes, people have died from
taking
ibogaine. But a heroin user is far more likely to die from HIV,
hepatitis, overdose, getting shot trying to score, etc, than they
would
be if they took ibogaine.
As with any medication, it’s a matter of balancing the potential
benefits with the potential risks.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) but very, very funny
Date: November 30, 2005 at 4:21:32 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’ve no idea what those were commercials for, but that penguin made me laugh out loud.
Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —– From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) but very, very funny
I love animals! The penguin was so cute! What is the commercial for? I can’t read or speak Dutch or is it French? Whatever it is, I can’t speak it!!! Doesn’t matter it is funny!
Callie
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 3:52:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/30/05 11:19:18 AM, pascal-roland@hotmail.com writes:
yr guidance was highly helpful as I most probably overlooked that section
during my erratic internet search.
Hi, I think you mentioned in a prior email you are from Iran.  I am attaching a pdf file of a paper on the Bam earthquake and the Iranian response.  I was hoping you might comment from a user perspective.
Thanks
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 3:27:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/30/05 11:19:18 AM, pascal-roland@hotmail.com writes:
I’m ignorant about heroine effects, although opium is the mother extract,
but imagine a +/-12 years opium consentant opium hostage. How can he face
the idea of waking up after hours of iboga visions, undergoing the pain of
withdrawal without being allowed to use his drug to cut the pain? At the
risk to being listed as one of the some reported fatalities.
Two things.  One, you throw the dice and take your chances and two, hopefully you have a skilled provider who can adjust dose or give adjunct medications.  Most +/- 12 year opium users can figure things out.  Do not consider this advice.  I  can see others messages coming in most likely proving advice so we will both see.
Howard
From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 3:18:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Matt,
Was 25mg/kg your last trip?  Did you take it in one does?
Luke
On 11/30/05, matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi
Yah its funny how people complain about useless talk but dont even take time
to answer legitimate questions people ask
Bruce i just took around 25mg/kg without being dependent on anything but
life :}
Pacal —i think u ll get more responses if you adress the particular
question in the subject line becuase most people dont bother opening their
mail unless they see something that interests them
love
m
________________________________
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:31:15 +0000 (GMT)
Pascal,
189lbs=approx.86Kg. At 86kg, 1.5grams=17.4mg/kg, a pretty strong dose for a
first time if you are not drug dependent. If you check the amounts required
for drug dependence you will see that with a body weight of 70kg over 1g is
taken.
The reason you probably didn’t get an answer is because this is well
documented and so your question got overlooked I imagine.
Hope that helps.
Lee
pascall roland <pascal-roland@hotmail.com> wrote:
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
it seems to be more comfortable to comment endlessly about iboga’s effect on
ego/mind than elaborating on iboga’s ways of use and consumption.
this leaves me the impression that those who worked on iboga remained
someway in the realm of experimentary ways, leaving out the scientific
approach.
only the Bwitis might be able to keep out of the scientific approach, as
they benefit of a long, old oral tradition.
sincerely,
P.R.
From: Nowwarat@aol.com
To: pascal-roland@hotmail.com
Subject: questions
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:06:34 EST
Add to those thoughtful questions another one. Has anyone actually taken
over one gram of Ibo Hcl? People say to take one and a half grams if you
weight
around189. But people talk about taking one gram but not more. At least in
my
brief research.
Bruce
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it’s FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
________________________________
Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the
first two months FREE*
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From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 30, 2005 at 3:10:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Wow.  I didn’t try to see if it worked with other people, just my arms.
Must try to check that one out next time. 🙂
On 11/30/05, Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Yes, I did, that’s for sure. I could see all sorts of things I was doing,
and others too (even if I couldn’t always recognize them) in the room or in
my bed with my eyes closed.
Very weird but also very, very cool.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
I noticed that if I move my arm in front of my face while on ibogaine
I can see my arm even when my eyes are closed.  I wonder has anyone
else seen this!
Luke
On 11/28/05, matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african
fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking
vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and
repeating
the process
crazy bwiti :]
any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because
before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of
my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish
sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and
thats
when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
one love
matt
________________________________
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box
that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the
division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the
mind
What did the box look like?
Howard
________________________________
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy.
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 2:40:22 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Everything that Jon said 😉
Besides that you’re asking the same questions that have already been
asked and answered here 2000 times, so I’d guess that the people most
qualified to give your answers have gotten bored of it by now and may
occasionally say something if they read your message. This list can be
very high traffic sometimes and alot of people only read messages from
authors whose names they recongize and are interested in. or who use a
descriptive subject line 😉
If you had looked, the same people here who would answer have already
written out detailed articles about the exact things you asked anyway.
http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html
‘Standard’ treatment dose from above and
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/Articles/MAPS-Ibogaine.pdf
16-18 mg per kg, so obviously many people are doing more then a gram at
once for addiction interruption.
Lots of people here have detoxed from 10 years plus on opiates, high
doses of methadone, and so on.
Every question you asked can be answered using the first page of google
http://www.google.com/search?q=ibogaine
Which leads you right back to the main ibogaine sites, Howard’s
ibogaine.org, Nick’s ibogaine.co.uk, Patrick and Mindvox (you are here)
and Dana Beal’s site.
If you’d bothered to do even the most basic research and then asked
more questions, probably people would have been more helpful. Expecting
people to act as your personal help desk and reference for no charge is
maybe asking a bit much 😉
Still no matter what, there’s always going to be someone here who will
give you their personal experience.
.:vector:.
— jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
Nevertheless, and even so I did not complete all the reading as I
should, the impression grows that after over 40 years of
experimental
studies and numerous clinical observations, not neglectable grey
zones
remain. At least, that’s how it appears to me by now, and that’s
the
main reason making me hesitating to book a ticket on an iboga
aeroplane.
Well, think about this… how many people have taken ibogaine in the
last 40 years? maybe a few thousand?
Now, how many people have smoked cannabis in the same time? a few
hundred million? maybe more?
And we’re not a much closer to a full understanding of how cannabis
works than we are to a full understanding of how ibogaine works. In
fact, we’ve only had an inkling of how cannabis works for the past 15
years, while we’ve had some idea how ibogaine works for the past 20
years or so.
Now, I don’t know if those usage numbers are quite right, but you get
my
point. It takes a long time and many, many administrations (and
usually
lots of money) to understand how a drug works. Make no mistake,
ibogaine
is an EXPERIMENTAL medication. While we have some idea how best to
use
it, thanks to the many years of hard work of people like Howard, Dr.
Mash, etc., we still have a great deal to learn about it. And the
only
way we can learn more about it is by observing more people who take
it.
If you decide to take ibogaine, you are, at least in some sense,
volunteering as a guinea pig.
Whether or not ibogaine is a good choice for you can only be decided
by
YOU. How badly do you need to get off your drug of choice? How much
risk
is it worth taking to try to get clean?
For example, compared to the risks of shooting heroin every day, the
risks of taking ibogaine are minimal. Yes, people have died from
taking
ibogaine. But a heroin user is far more likely to die from HIV,
hepatitis, overdose, getting shot trying to score, etc, than they
would
be if they took ibogaine.
As with any medication, it’s a matter of balancing the potential
benefits with the potential risks.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 1:12:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Pascall & all, if you are concerned about residual withdrawal,there isnt really much in my experience ,especially compared to any other method ,unless you are doing long acting opiates like methadone ,buprenorphine, if I am reading correctly ,is that your concern?Best wishes -shell
Matthew Shriver <matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
Pascall
I think the lack of definitive, authoritative, answers lies as much in the
fact that no-one with the money and clout to do so, wants to touch ibogaine
as anything else. The reasons are numerous, from its illegal status in some
places, to the stigma attached to drug addiction to begin with, to the
unprofitable nature of a drug that isn’t taken regularly. So almost no-one
in the medical/scientific community has been able to make much happen with
getting it properly researched and studied with the result that most of the
research is being done by underground providers who only have lists like
this and the internet to help share information with each other.
I can tell you from personal experience with an 8+ year opiate addiction,
about half on heroin and half on methadone with occasional heroin use, that
if it wasn’t for ibogaine I doubt I would be clean today 2 and half years
later. There are many more people on this list who can also tell you the
same thing from their own personal experience.
It’s a risk to be sure. The risk of death and the risk that it might not
work for you are both real. But for me it came down to the fact that
absolutely nothing else had worked for me. I gave everything that I heard
could work multiple chances, including ibogaine, and in the end it was
through ibogaine that I finally got clean. But ultimately it’s your
decision to make. Hang around here, read about it on the internet, and then
decide.
Matt
—–Original Message—–
From: pascall roland [mailto:pascal-roland@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:24 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Dear Mr. Lotsof,
yr guidance was highly helpful as I most probably overlooked that section
during my erratic internet search.
amen
Nevertheless, and even so I did not complete all the reading as I should,
the impression grows that after over 40 years of experimental studies and
numerous clinical observations, not neglectable grey zones remain. At least,
that’s how it appears to me by now, and that’s the main reason making me
hesitating to book a ticket on an iboga aeroplane.
I’m ignorant about heroine effects, although opium is the mother extract,
but imagine a +/-12 years opium consentant opium hostage. How can he face
the idea of waking up after hours of iboga visions, undergoing the pain of
withdrawal without being allowed to use his drug to cut the pain? At the
risk to being listed as one of the some reported fatalities.
Only relief by now lies in continuing my readings, and hopefully come to a
conclusion.
b.r.
p.r.
>From: HSLotsof@aol.com
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
>Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:39:54 EST
>
>
>In a message dated 11/30/05 1:03:30 AM, pascal-roland@hotmail.com writes:
>
>
> > no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
> >
> >
>
>http://www.ibogaine.org/science.html
>
>Check out the papers in the clinical section. You can also check out the
>patent section.
>
>There is diversity of opinion and ibogaine is experimental.
>
>Howard
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
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Yahoo! Personals
Single? There’s someone we’d like you to meet.
Lots of someones, actually. Yahoo! Personals
From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 11:59:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nevertheless, and even so I did not complete all the reading as I should, the impression grows that after over 40 years of experimental studies and numerous clinical observations, not neglectable grey zones remain. At least, that’s how it appears to me by now, and that’s the main reason making me hesitating to book a ticket on an iboga aeroplane.
Well, think about this… how many people have taken ibogaine in the last 40 years? maybe a few thousand?
Now, how many people have smoked cannabis in the same time? a few hundred million? maybe more?
And we’re not a much closer to a full understanding of how cannabis works than we are to a full understanding of how ibogaine works. In fact, we’ve only had an inkling of how cannabis works for the past 15 years, while we’ve had some idea how ibogaine works for the past 20 years or so.
Now, I don’t know if those usage numbers are quite right, but you get my point. It takes a long time and many, many administrations (and usually lots of money) to understand how a drug works. Make no mistake, ibogaine is an EXPERIMENTAL medication. While we have some idea how best to use it, thanks to the many years of hard work of people like Howard, Dr. Mash, etc., we still have a great deal to learn about it. And the only way we can learn more about it is by observing more people who take it. If you decide to take ibogaine, you are, at least in some sense, volunteering as a guinea pig.
Whether or not ibogaine is a good choice for you can only be decided by YOU. How badly do you need to get off your drug of choice? How much risk is it worth taking to try to get clean?
For example, compared to the risks of shooting heroin every day, the risks of taking ibogaine are minimal. Yes, people have died from taking ibogaine. But a heroin user is far more likely to die from HIV, hepatitis, overdose, getting shot trying to score, etc, than they would be if they took ibogaine.
As with any medication, it’s a matter of balancing the potential benefits with the potential risks.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 9:41:13 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pascall
I think the lack of definitive, authoritative, answers lies as much in the
fact that no-one with the money and clout to do so, wants to touch ibogaine
as anything else.  The reasons are numerous, from its illegal status in some
places, to the stigma attached to drug addiction to begin with, to the
unprofitable nature of a drug that isn’t taken regularly.  So almost no-one
in the medical/scientific community has been able to make much happen with
getting it properly researched and studied with the result that most of the
research is being done by underground providers who only have lists like
this and the internet to help share information with each other.
I can tell you from personal experience with an 8+ year opiate addiction,
about half on heroin and half on methadone with occasional heroin use, that
if it wasn’t for ibogaine I doubt I would be clean today 2 and half years
later.  There are many more people on this list who can also tell you the
same thing from their own personal experience.
It’s a risk to be sure.  The risk of death and the risk that it might not
work for you are both real.  But for me it came down to the fact that
absolutely nothing else had worked for me.  I gave everything that I heard
could work multiple chances, including ibogaine, and in the end it was
through ibogaine that I finally got clean.  But ultimately it’s your
decision to make.  Hang around here, read about it on the internet, and then
decide.
Matt
—–Original Message—–
From: pascall roland [mailto:pascal-roland@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:24 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Dear Mr. Lotsof,
yr guidance was highly helpful as I most probably overlooked that section
during my erratic internet search.
amen
Nevertheless, and even so I did not complete all the reading as I should,
the impression grows that after over 40 years of experimental studies and
numerous clinical observations, not neglectable grey zones remain. At least,
that’s how it appears to me by now, and that’s the main reason making me
hesitating to book a ticket on an iboga aeroplane.
I’m ignorant about heroine effects, although opium is the mother extract,
but imagine a +/-12 years opium consentant opium hostage. How can he face
the idea of waking up after hours of iboga visions, undergoing the pain of
withdrawal without being allowed to use his drug to cut the pain? At the
risk to being listed as one of the some reported fatalities.
Only relief by now lies in continuing my readings, and hopefully come to a
conclusion.
b.r.
p.r.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:39:54 EST
In a message dated 11/30/05 1:03:30 AM, pascal-roland@hotmail.com writes:
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
http://www.ibogaine.org/science.html
Check out the papers in the clinical section.   You can also check out the
patent section.
There is diversity of opinion and ibogaine is experimental.
Howard
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
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From: “pascall roland” <pascal-roland@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Sotheby Iboga auction online….register now!
Date: November 30, 2005 at 9:31:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Matt,
good to read from you.
You might be right,
best regards from Tehran……..
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:26:32 -0500
Hi
Yah its funny how people complain about useless talk but dont even take time to answer legitimate questions people ask
Bruce i just took around 25mg/kg without being dependent on anything but life :}
Pacal —i think u ll get more responses if you adress the particular question in the subject line becuase most people dont bother opening their mail unless they see something that interests them
love
m
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:31:15 +0000 (GMT)
Pascal,
189lbs=approx.86Kg. At 86kg, 1.5grams=17.4mg/kg, a pretty strong dose for a first time if you are not drug dependent. If you check the amounts required for drug dependence you will see that with a body weight of 70kg over 1g is taken.
The reason you probably didn’t get an answer is because this is well documented and so your question got overlooked I imagine.
Hope that helps.
Lee
pascall roland <pascal-roland@hotmail.com> wrote:
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
it seems to be more comfortable to comment endlessly about iboga’s effect on
ego/mind than elaborating on iboga’s ways of use and consumption.
this leaves me the impression that those who worked on iboga remained
someway in the realm of experimentary ways, leaving out the scientific
approach.
only the Bwitis might be able to keep out of the scientific approach, as
they benefit of a long, old oral tradition.
sincerely,
P.R.
>From: Nowwarat@aol.com
>To: pascal-roland@hotmail.com
>Subject: questions
>Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:06:34 EST
>
>Add to those thoughtful questions another one. Has anyone actually taken
>over one
gram of Ibo Hcl? People say to take one and a half grams if you
>weight
>around189. But people talk about taking one gram but not more. At least in
>my
>brief research.
>
>Bruce
_________________________________________________________________
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http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from   MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*
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_________________________________________________________________
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 9:26:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi
Yah its funny how people complain about useless talk but dont even take time to answer legitimate questions people ask
Bruce i just took around 25mg/kg without being dependent on anything but life :}
Pacal —i think u ll get more responses if you adress the particular question in the subject line becuase most people dont bother opening their mail unless they see something that interests them
love
m
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:31:15 +0000 (GMT)
Pascal,
189lbs=approx.86Kg. At 86kg, 1.5grams=17.4mg/kg, a pretty strong dose for a first time if you are not drug dependent. If you check the amounts required for drug dependence you will see that with a body weight of 70kg over 1g is taken.
The reason you probably didn’t get an answer is because this is well documented and so your question got overlooked I imagine.
Hope that helps.
Lee
pascall roland <pascal-roland@hotmail.com> wrote:
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
it seems to be more comfortable to comment endlessly about iboga’s effect on
ego/mind than elaborating on iboga’s ways of use and consumption.
this leaves me the impression that those who worked on iboga remained
someway in the realm of experimentary ways, leaving out the scientific
approach.
only the Bwitis might be able to keep out of the scientific approach, as
they benefit of a long, old oral tradition.
sincerely,
P.R.
>From: Nowwarat@aol.com
>To: pascal-roland@hotmail.com
>Subject: questions
>Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:06:34 EST
>
>Add to those thoughtful questions another one. Has anyone actually taken
>over one gram of Ibo Hcl? People say to take one and a half grams if you
>weight
>around189. But people talk about taking one gram but not more. At least in
>my
>brief research.
>
>Bruce
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it’s FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “pascall roland” <pascal-roland@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 9:24:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Mr. Lotsof,
yr guidance was highly helpful as I most probably overlooked that section during my erratic internet search.
amen
Nevertheless, and even so I did not complete all the reading as I should, the impression grows that after over 40 years of experimental studies and numerous clinical observations, not neglectable grey zones remain. At least, that’s how it appears to me by now, and that’s the main reason making me hesitating to book a ticket on an iboga aeroplane.
I’m ignorant about heroine effects, although opium is the mother extract, but imagine a +/-12 years opium consentant opium hostage. How can he face the idea of waking up after hours of iboga visions, undergoing the pain of withdrawal without being allowed to use his drug to cut the pain? At the risk to being listed as one of the some reported fatalities.
Only relief by now lies in continuing my readings, and hopefully come to a conclusion.
b.r.
p.r.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:39:54 EST
In a message dated 11/30/05 1:03:30 AM, pascal-roland@hotmail.com writes:
> no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
>
>
http://www.ibogaine.org/science.html
Check out the papers in the clinical section.   You can also check out the
patent section.
There is diversity of opinion and ibogaine is experimental.
Howard
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 4:31:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pascal,
189lbs=approx.86Kg. At 86kg, 1.5grams=17.4mg/kg, a pretty strong dose for a first time if you are not drug dependent. If you check the amounts required for drug dependence you will see that with a body weight of 70kg over 1g is taken.
The reason you probably didn’t get an answer is because this is well documented and so your question got overlooked I imagine.
Hope that helps.
Lee
pascall roland <pascal-roland@hotmail.com> wrote:
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
it seems to be more comfortable to comment endlessly about iboga’s effect on
ego/mind than elaborating on iboga’s ways of use and consumption.
this leaves me the impression that those who worked on iboga remained
someway in the realm of experimentary ways, leaving out the scientific
approach.
only the Bwitis might be able to keep out of the scientific approach, as
they benefit of a long, old oral tradition.
sincerely,
P.R.
>From: Nowwarat@aol.com
>To: pascal-roland@hotmail.com
>Subject: questions
>Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:06:34 EST
>
>Add to those thoughtful questions another one. Has anyone actually taken
>over one gram of Ibo Hcl? People say to take one and a half grams if you
>weight
>around189. But people talk about taking one gram but not more. At least in
>my
>brief research.
>
>Bruce
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it’s FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 2:39:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/30/05 1:03:30 AM, pascal-roland@hotmail.com writes:
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
http://www.ibogaine.org/science.html
Check out the papers in the clinical section.  You can also check out the patent section.
There is diversity of opinion and ibogaine is experimental.
Howard
From: “pascall roland” <pascal-roland@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE: questions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 1:03:17 AM EST
To: Nowwarat@aol.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
no reply whatsoever, unless I do not know where to fish the answers….
it seems to be more comfortable to comment endlessly about iboga’s effect on ego/mind than elaborating on iboga’s ways of use and consumption.
this leaves me the impression that those who worked on iboga remained someway in the realm of experimentary ways, leaving out the scientific approach.
only the Bwitis might be able to keep out of the scientific approach, as they benefit of a long, old oral tradition.
sincerely,
P.R.
From: Nowwarat@aol.com
To: pascal-roland@hotmail.com
Subject: questions
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:06:34 EST
Add to those thoughtful questions another one. Has anyone actually taken
over one gram of Ibo Hcl? People say to take one and a half grams if you weight
around189. But people talk about taking one gram but not more. At least in my
brief research.
Bruce
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it’s FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] x-ray visions
Date: November 30, 2005 at 12:09:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
I don’t believe it!! hahahahaha!! Now tell me how to sod off!
Ah there ya go! Hiding wayyy down here at the bottom of everyone elses message!!! Hehehe
Oh yehhh you dudez don’t use the word “sod” do ya?
Well it’s pretty much the same as piss off, fek off, bugger off, or whatever ya use in place of it! I’ll leave it to you to decide how ya wanna proceed!! \
Heheheheheh
Luff n lafta
Kirky!!!
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) but very, very funny
Date: November 30, 2005 at 12:05:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I love animals! The penguin was so cute! What is the commercial for? I can’t read or speak Dutch or is it French? Whatever it is, I can’t speak it!!! Doesn’t matter it is funny!
Callie
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] x-ray visions
Date: November 29, 2005 at 11:59:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/29/2005 9:43:48 PM Central Standard Time, captkirk@clear.net.nz writes:
Wow, I haven’t had that experience on drugs, but when semi asleep, eyes closed, could hear everything around me, breathing of partner, just the colour and contrast of the room was different.
Also have seen it when we got ghost busters in to get rid of some pesky spirits, and when the woman channelled she had her eyes closed but could see everything around her “as” the spirit she was channelling.  To prove to the spirit it wsan’t his house and it wasn’t the turn of the century of 1899, we fished up a newspaper and showed “him” the date on it . With her eyes fully closed, she frowned and read out the day, date month and year on the page.  Funniest thing I ever saw.
Believe it or sod off!!
Heheheheh
Kirk ;P
From: booker w [mailto:swbooker@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2005 4:25 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] x-ray visions
Hi.  I had that experience too, standing in the shower and closing my eyes, and seeing my legs just as tho my eyes were open, altho everything was tinged in red.
It made me feel like I was being shown how much our mind can do, and that it truly isn’t all that dependent on what we think of as our physical senses.
Best, SAndy
From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date:  Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:00:47 -0500
>Yes, I did, that’s for sure. I could see all sorts of things I was 
>doing, and others too (even if I couldn’t always recognize them) in 
>the room or in my bed with my eyes closed.
>Very weird but also very, very cool.
>
>
>Peace and love,
>Preston
>
>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is 
>often mistaken for madness”
>Richard Davenport-Hines
>
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient 
>Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
>Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>Cont. High Times mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>—– Original Message —– From: “Luke Christoffersen” 
><luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
>
>
>I noticed that if I move my arm in front of my face while on 
>ibogaine
>I can see my arm even when my eyes are closed.  I wonder has anyone
>else seen this!
>
>Luke
>
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I don’t believe it!! hahahahaha!! Now tell me how to sod off!
From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] x-ray visions
Date: November 29, 2005 at 10:43:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Wow, I haven’t had that experience on drugs, but when semi asleep, eyes closed, could hear everything around me, breathing of partner, just the colour and contrast of the room was different.
Also have seen it when we got ghost busters in to get rid of some pesky spirits, and when the woman channelled she had her eyes closed but could see everything around her “as” the spirit she was channelling.  To prove to the spirit it wsan’t his house and it wasn’t the turn of the century of 1899, we fished up a newspaper and showed “him” the date on it . With her eyes fully closed, she frowned and read out the day, date month and year on the page.  Funniest thing I ever saw.
Believe it or sod off!!
Heheheheh
Kirk ;P
From: booker w [mailto:swbooker@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2005 4:25 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] x-ray visions
Hi.  I had that experience too, standing in the shower and closing my eyes, and seeing my legs just as tho my eyes were open, altho everything was tinged in red.
It made me feel like I was being shown how much our mind can do, and that it truly isn’t all that dependent on what we think of as our physical senses.
Best, SAndy
From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date:  Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:00:47 -0500
>Yes, I did, that’s for sure. I could see all sorts of things I was 
>doing, and others too (even if I couldn’t always recognize them) in 
>the room or in my bed with my eyes closed.
>Very weird but also very, very cool.
>
>
>Peace and love,
>Preston
>
>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is 
>often mistaken for madness”
>Richard Davenport-Hines
>
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient 
>Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
>Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>Cont. High Times mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>—– Original Message —– From: “Luke Christoffersen” 
><luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
>
>
>I noticed that if I move my arm in front of my face while on 
>ibogaine
>I can see my arm even when my eyes are closed.  I wonder has anyone
>else seen this!
>
>Luke
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] x-ray visions
Date: November 29, 2005 at 10:24:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi.  I had that experience too, standing in the shower and closing my eyes, and seeing my legs just as tho my eyes were open, altho everything was tinged in red.
It made me feel like I was being shown how much our mind can do, and that it truly isn’t all that dependent on what we think of as our physical senses.
Best, SAndy
From:  “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine@mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date:  Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:00:47 -0500
>Yes, I did, that’s for sure. I could see all sorts of things I was
>doing, and others too (even if I couldn’t always recognize them) in
>the room or in my bed with my eyes closed.
>Very weird but also very, very cool.
>
>
>Peace and love,
>Preston
>
>”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is
>often mistaken for madness”
>Richard Davenport-Hines
>
>ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
>Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
>Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
>Cont. High Times mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>—– Original Message —– From: “Luke Christoffersen”
><luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
>To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
>
>
>I noticed that if I move my arm in front of my face while on
>ibogaine
>I can see my arm even when my eyes are closed.  I wonder has anyone
>else seen this!
>
>Luke
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Another Ibogaine article
Date: November 29, 2005 at 9:59:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://cannabisculture.com/articles/4584.html
It’s not really new, kind of the same article re written for the Nth
time yet again but it is yet another ibogaine article 😉
.:vector:.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
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 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 29, 2005 at 8:00:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes, I did, that’s for sure. I could see all sorts of things I was doing, and others too (even if I couldn’t always recognize them) in the room or in my bed with my eyes closed.
Very weird but also very, very cool.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
I noticed that if I move my arm in front of my face while on ibogaine
I can see my arm even when my eyes are closed.  I wonder has anyone
else seen this!
Luke
On 11/28/05, matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african
fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking
vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and repeating
the process
crazy bwiti :]
any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because
before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of
my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish
sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and thats
when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
one love
matt
________________________________
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box
that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the
division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the
mind
What did the box look like?
Howard
________________________________
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) but very, very funny
Date: November 29, 2005 at 7:54:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This was sent by a friend of our in Switzerland, and to those whose computers can’t handle muchbandwidth in their box, I apologize- this is for those who can handle it, and it’s very funny.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Vanessa Cleary
To: Eleanora
Cc: Mika Frazi ; erica ; ANNA CURTIS ; Maral Sari ; Preston Peet ; Ninjastarrecords@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 5:28 PM
Subject: Fw: vive le week-end
Hey all,my friend gabi sent me this video attachmet-pretty cute- LUv nesss
—– Original Message —–
From: Gabriela Vuichoud
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:05 AM
Subject: vive le week-end
I know…it’s only Tuesday…but…I’m already looking forward to the weekend…Enjoy! G
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 29, 2005 at 6:19:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yah that is a cool feeling
i also try to squint when im blinded by all the lights and when i relize that my eyes are closed and that squinting wont do shit i always burst into an uncotroloble laugh
But i noticed that if you position your head on a slight angle and move your eyes to different sides the color is not as blinding.
mucho love
m
From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:30:25 +0000
I noticed that if I move my arm in front of my face while on ibogaine
I can see my arm even when my eyes are closed. I wonder has anyone
else seen this!
Luke
On 11/28/05, matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african
> fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking
> vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and repeating
> the process
>
> crazy bwiti :]
>
> any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because
> before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of
> my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish
> sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and thats
> when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
>
> one love
>
> matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: HSLotsof@aol.com
> Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST
>
>
> In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
>
> No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box
> that was briming with it……
> Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the
> division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the
> mind
>
>
> What did the box look like?
>
> Howard
>
>
> ________________________________
> Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy.
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
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From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 29, 2005 at 4:30:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I noticed that if I move my arm in front of my face while on ibogaine
I can see my arm even when my eyes are closed.  I wonder has anyone
else seen this!
Luke
On 11/28/05, matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african
fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking
vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and repeating
the process
crazy bwiti :]
any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because
before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of
my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish
sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and thats
when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
one love
matt
________________________________
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box
that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the
division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the
mind
What did the box look like?
Howard
________________________________
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
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 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 29, 2005 at 7:20:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Matt,
I’ll make on observation if that ok.
What this tells me is that yes ibogaine is very powerful but taking large doses does not mean it will land all its power on you.
What I read here is you were shown its power and it used its power to sabotage your trip a little bit by revealing the contents of your stomach and making you throw up, i.e., high doses are not always the answer. There is an appropriate dose for the stage of healing you are at and you need to be connected to your issues to determine that.
You may have taken too much ibogaine? Its good imo to try and exercise a little restraint using ibogaine (says he who has on occasion not) and to realise that you have to do the underlying work by focusing in on the issues and using your 6th sense to determine appropriate use.
You may have reached a stage where low doses (or no doses) are the way to go?
Just an observation and of course its just a theory.
🙂
Lee
matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and repeating the process
crazy bwiti :]
any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and thats when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
one love
matt
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind
What did the box look like?
Howard
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dream Lines ( off topic but cool!)
Date: November 29, 2005 at 6:44:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hmm.. What were you thinking of? 🙂
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
Fantastic!
I tried ibogaine, howard lotsof and deborah mash.  I wish it worked faster ala ibogaine but slow is better than nothing.
Howard
In a message dated 11/29/05 12:10:30 AM, CallieMimosa@aol.com writes:
DREAM A LITTLE DREAM – ONLINE!
You enter KEYWORDS of what you’d like to dream
about, then the thingy grabs relevant images from
the web and mishmashes them into a dreamy
ever-changing tapestry.
http://www.solaas.com.ar/dreamlines/
This is cool as shit!! I tried several things, Ibogaine, evil (get this, ticketmaster was one of the images from evil!!!), mindvox, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, tie dye…..use your imagination! It is fun to watch and relaxing!
Peace, Callie
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “pascall roland” <pascal-roland@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re:Ibogaine
Date: November 29, 2005 at 5:23:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Good afternoon,
being still a novice to Ibogaine, and whatever I learned abt it is based upon available literature on the net.
The more I read, the more I get confused because against 2-3 positive experiences, there is at least one negative or semi negative experience.
For pure opium addiction, I find several ibogaine dosis, and those to be taken acc. over several days, with sometimes several dosis daily. Now it may be impossible to establish an equation between the weight of the addicted, the daily opiate qty consumption over a period of x years, and the qty of iboga to be taken for how many times per day over a specific period.
In case such an equation exists, what would be the formula? Besides, wonder how iboga acts on the brain. Opiate-morphine molecules lock onto the brains’ receptors, making the naturally body produced endorphine uneffective.
The main reason why I did not decide as yet to go for iboga teatment, is that an unaccurate dosis can make the patient feeling the ususal withdrawal pain symptoms coming up.Sometimes with delay.
On the top, it is recommended not to use opiate drug during iboga treatment, the effect could be fatal to the patient. Except durg intake, what can eliminate the eventual withdrawal pains?
All that turns in my mind, without acceptable answer to it. So I still hesitate to do that iboga journey.
Whoever can comment, thanks.
b.r.
p.r.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it’s FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 29, 2005 at 2:30:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
i know exaxtly what it did to my head so what u tripin about?
i  dont have any knowledge about hcl etc therefore asking a question about something i m not certain about seemed likea  logical thing to do
From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:17:12 -0800 (PST)
you people are nuts….  HCl of any drug is water soluble and easily dissolves…  Your stomach has HCl, lower than any drug would have, so quit worry about what it is doin to your stomach and start thinkin about what it is doin to your head…  I mean geez, quit wiggin out over the pure alkaloid…  I took 5 grams of whole plant extract after tapering down to about 12mgs of methadone from 100mgs a day and it was FUN!!!  Yes FUN!!!  Yeah so I puked on and off for 18 hours…  SO WHAT!?!?!  It fuckin rocked, was very spiritual!!  It should be experienced by everyone at least once and, to top it all off, I have been opiate free for over a year without a single complication…  You guys all worry too much…  I can understand if you have health problems, but it does what it’s supposed to, if you let it, and as long as you aren’t a psychological wreck, from severe mental problems…  Just eat the Iboga and stop worrying, it is good for ya!!!!
matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and repeating the process
crazy bwiti :]
any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and thats when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
one love
matt
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind
What did the box look like?
Howard
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy./]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Yahoo! Music Unlimited – Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Dream Lines ( off topic but cool!)
Date: November 29, 2005 at 1:42:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Fantastic!
I tried ibogaine, howard lotsof and deborah mash.  I wish it worked faster ala ibogaine but slow is better than nothing.
Howard
In a message dated 11/29/05 12:10:30 AM, CallieMimosa@aol.com writes:
DREAM A LITTLE DREAM – ONLINE!
You enter KEYWORDS of what you’d like to dream
about, then the thingy grabs relevant images from
the web and mishmashes them into a dreamy
ever-changing tapestry.
http://www.solaas.com.ar/dreamlines/
This is cool as shit!! I tried several things, Ibogaine, evil (get this, ticketmaster was one of the images from evil!!!), mindvox, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, tie dye…..use your imagination! It is fun to watch and relaxing!
Peace, Callie
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Dream Lines ( off topic but cool!)
Date: November 29, 2005 at 12:10:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
DREAM A LITTLE DREAM – ONLINE!
You enter KEYWORDS of what you’d like to dream
about, then the thingy grabs relevant images from
the web and mishmashes them into a dreamy
ever-changing tapestry.
http://www.solaas.com.ar/dreamlines/
This is cool as shit!! I tried several things, Ibogaine, evil (get this, ticketmaster was one of the images from evil!!!), mindvox, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, tie dye…..use your imagination! It is fun to watch and relaxing!
Peace, Callie
From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 28, 2005 at 11:59:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
J  heheheh I llike you
From: Crooked Eye [mailto:iboganaut420@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2005 4:17 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
you people are nuts….  HCl of any drug is water soluble and easily dissolves…  Your stomach has HCl, lower than any drug would have, so quit worry about what it is doin to your stomach and start thinkin about what it is doin to your head…  I mean geez, quit wiggin out over the pure alkaloid…  I took 5 grams of whole plant extract after tapering down to about 12mgs of methadone from 100mgs a day and it was FUN!!!  Yes FUN!!!  Yeah so I puked on and off for 18 hours…  SO WHAT!?!?!  It fuckin rocked, was very spiritual!!  It should be experienced by everyone at least once and, to top it all off, I have been opiate free for over a year without a single complication…  You guys all worry too much…  I can understand if you have health problems, but it does what it’s supposed to, if you let it, and as long as you aren’t a psychological wreck, from severe mental problems…  Just eat the Iboga and stop worrying, it is good for ya!!!!

matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and repeating the process
crazy bwiti :]
any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and thats when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
one love
matt
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST


In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:

No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind

What did the box look like?

Howard
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy./]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Yahoo! Music Unlimited – Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
From: Crooked Eye <iboganaut420@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 28, 2005 at 10:17:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
you people are nuts….  HCl of any drug is water soluble and easily dissolves…  Your stomach has HCl, lower than any drug would have, so quit worry about what it is doin to your stomach and start thinkin about what it is doin to your head…  I mean geez, quit wiggin out over the pure alkaloid…  I took 5 grams of whole plant extract after tapering down to about 12mgs of methadone from 100mgs a day and it was FUN!!!  Yes FUN!!!  Yeah so I puked on and off for 18 hours…  SO WHAT!?!?!  It fuckin rocked, was very spiritual!!  It should be experienced by everyone at least once and, to top it all off, I have been opiate free for over a year without a single complication…  You guys all worry too much…  I can understand if you have health problems, but it does what it’s supposed to, if you let it, and as long as you aren’t a psychological wreck, from severe mental problems…  Just eat the Iboga and stop worrying, it is good for ya!!!!
matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and repeating the process
crazy bwiti :]
any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and thats when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
one love
matt
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind
What did the box look like?
Howard
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy./]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Yahoo! Music Unlimited – Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Date: November 28, 2005 at 4:16:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey,
  Someone’s seriously stoned, ’cause I’m holding the deed to Frenando Poo right here, so someone has to start getting out, now!
;-))
  And thanks Jon.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “jon” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Hi Preston,
Glad to hear you’re doing well =) I wouldn’t beat yourself up about the dilaudid… i mean you obviously have a legitimate medical reason for using it from time to time. I’d only start to worry if you find yourself using it for reasons other than that legitimate medical reason…
Anyhow, this article you posted reminded me a lot of some passages from the Illuminatus! trilogy…
“Don’t say wop,” the President shouted back. “How many times do I have to tell you? Don’t say wop or kike or any of those words anymore.” He spoke with some asperity, since he lived daily with the dread that someday the secret tapes he kept of all Oval Room transactions would be released to the public. He had long ago vowed that if that day ever came, the tapes would not be full of “(expletive deleted)” or “(characterization deleted).” He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of Russia and China.
……
In Moscow, where it was ten the next morning, the Premier called a conference and said crisply, “That character in Washington is a mental lunatic, and he means it. Get our men out of Fernando Poo right away, then find out who authorized sending them in there in the first place and transfer him to be supervisor of a hydroelectric works in Outer Mongolia.”
“We don’t have any men in Fernando Poo,” a commissar said mournfully. ‘The Americans are imagining things again.”
“Well, how the hell can we withdraw men if we don’t have them there in the first place?” the Premier demanded.
“I don’t know. We’ve got twenty-four hours to figure that out, or-” the commissar quoted an old Russian proverb which means, roughly, that when the polar bear excrement interferes with the fan belts, the machinery overheats.
“Suppose we just announce that our troops are coming out?” another commissar suggested. “They can’t say we’re lying if they don’t find any of our troops there afterward.”
“No, they never believe anything we say. They want to be shown,” the premier said thoughtfully. “We’ll have to infiltrate some troops surreptitiously and then withdraw them with a lot of fanfare and publicity. That should do it.”
“I’m afraid it won’t end the problem,” another pommissar said funereally. “Our intelligence indicates that there are Chinese troops there. Unless Peking backs down, we’re going to be caught in the middle when the bombs start flying and-” he quoted a proverb about the man in the intersection when two manure trucks collide.
“Damn,” the Premier said. “What the blue blazes do the Chinese want with Fernando Poo?”
He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on schizophrenia; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of America and China.
…..
“We’ll just get our troops out of Fernando Poo,” the Chairman of the Chinese Communist party said on April 1. “A place that size isn’t worth world war.”
“But we don’t have any troops there,” an aide told him, “it’s the Russians who do.”
“Oh?” the Chairman quoted a proverb to the effect that there was urine in the rosewater. “I wonder what the hell the Russians want with Fernando Poo?” he added thoughtfully.
He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of America and Russia.
HI all and happy Sunday morning.
I ran into a very old friend and fellow ibogaine list member, who noted more than once how happy he was to see me doing (or looking, I wasn’t always sure) so well compared to how I have at time been doing, which was a nice thing to hear (more than once, so it coulda also been the alcohol he was drinking- still, I prefer to put it down to his honest observations), as it only validate my decision and the carrying out of said decision.
Which btw, I have to say I’m doing remarkably well with (KNOCK LOUDLY UPON WOOD, THREE TIMES- personal twist on superstious bologna, so please humor me) my severe, strict adherance to my own personal teeny level of medical pain relief, trying to see if I can manage to do it on my own, but I have found there have been more than once when I simply had to take a couple dilaudid (orally) to help nail the swelling, heaving, growing pain. Otherwise, I’m for the moment doing well and am trying to give myself credit for doing so. I think it’s going to take a little while for it to become obvious to certain other sthat I mean what I’ve said and really am doing this, among other behavioral and habit changes that have nothing to do with drugs. If I get the time to show it instead of saying it (which I’m not doing except here in print, which is why I noted I’m trying to give myself credit because I can’t do it anywhere else- these are what I use as my groups instead of classic -A type grounps, as I told my friend last night) no problem I believe.
Anyway, on with the article about the President using hard drugs both legal and non.
Ohhhhh, if only this story is true, it’s a beaut. But….
Personally I’m never sure just how to take Tom Flocco’s information and reporting,
as he seems to pretty far in accusatory language but doesn’t seem to always
source his info, often who are “un-named,” or “anonymous,”  which makes it difficult to follow up on the story, (although out of the rest of the articles total reliance on unnamed sources all over the place, the name of the doctor supposedly writing the prescriptions for Ritilan and Prozac for Bush is named, a Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician, so feel free to follow this up if you have the time) such as this juicy but gossipy
piece on George W. Bush not only still drinking, but taking Prozac as well as
doing cocaine, these days as President of the United States, not years ago as
a frat boy or US Navy pilot. If this story is true that is.
http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/SecretServIntelSay.htm
Tom Flocco.com
http://tomflocco.com/
Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Date: Thursday, November 17
Topic: —
“It is not for kings, O Lemuel-not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer, lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.” Proverbs 31: 4-5
Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, Prozac, alcohol
Federal agents question out-of-control White House operating “under the influence” while continuing historical pattern of untested drug usage at highest levels places presidents above the law, jeopardizing the safety of all Americans
by Tom Flocco
Washington-November 17, 2005-TomFlocco.com-Secret Service members attached to White House domestic security, FBI and CIA agents, and written national security field reports all confirm that President Bush has been using drugs which could be affecting his performance as the nation’s war-time commander-in-chief.
Multiple federal agents having direct knowledge and access to Bush’s medical records say the President has switched from using Ritalin to taking Prozac while also succumbing to periodic alcoholic binges which have led to tirades and explosive personal conduct among White House aides, absent required random drug testing of all public employees and elected officials.
Federal law enforcement agents have at different times witnessed President Bush doing lines of cocaine in the early morning hours at the White House and drinking straight shots of whiskey in the evening hours on other occasions, according to U.S. intelligence sources who confirm multiple stories appearing in the tabloid press which say the First Lady is assigned to “keep an eye on him.”
Bush’s alleged conduct raises serious questions as to what effect the chemicals are having on his oval office decision-making, and why Democrats and Republicans facing coming voter backlash-while undoubtedly having heard the whispers-are failing to call for the release of Bush’s medical records for bipartisan congressional scrutiny.
Legislators have also failed to ask Bush to submit to drug-testing when they required President Clinton to submit to similar tests to confirm a match of his DNA with spots found on Monica Lewinsky’s blue dress-a matter of far less consequence to U.S. national security than the effects of Mr. Bush’s alleged ongoing chemical dependency.
Having observed the President smirk and laugh when discussing the war or other serious matters of state at press conferences, the White House press corps has thus far refused to muster the courage to ask whether Bush will have himself tested for drugs or whether he considers himself above the law compared to all other federal employees.
U.S. intelligence sources having direct contact with White House domestic security told TomFlocco.com that multiple federal agents would be willing to testify before a grand jury if subpoenaed regarding what they have seen and heard pertaining to Mr. Bush’s drug and alcohol usage.
Secret Service and intelligence officials are reportedly concerned about public safety while Mr. Bush has access to nuclear weapons without being subject to random drug testing to determine how the addictions are affecting his ability to govern.
Bush’s doses of Ritalin and Prozac are reportedly administered by Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician; and medical journals say they can impair the President’s mental faculties and decrease both his physical capabilities and his ability to respond to a crisis.
Medical reports also say that mixing cocaine with alcohol produces a substance in the blood called “cocaethylene” which can be more toxic to the body than the cocaine itself.
Dr. Justin Frank, a Washington D.C. psychiatrist and author of Bush On The Couch-Inside The Mind Of The President, told The National Enquirer: “I do think that Bush is drinking again. Alcoholics who are not in any program, like the President, have a hard time when stress gets to be great.”
snip-
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 28, 2005 at 2:59:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
brown paper box with handles made to hold it on both sides….two african fellows staring intently into it, each holding one side and shaking vigourously, puting it down sifting through it with both hands and repeating the process
crazy bwiti :]
any other comments about the hcl?….i m really curious about this because before i started vomiting i had this amazing ability to xray some parts of my body and i saw my stomach lining filled with a greenish yeloowish sesspool of god knows what and immieditly i thought oh fuk the hcl and thats when i started vomiting—–fuken disgusting shit!!!!!
one love
matt
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:54:05 EST
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind
What did the box look like?
Howard
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 28, 2005 at 1:30:39 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 28 November 2005 17:54
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind
It’s just that some people figure that if something’s made by mankind, or modified by it, then it’s not as good as the natural version. I think it’s nice to celebrate that everything is made by god (or whoever) whether it’s been fiddled with a bit by human consciousness or not.
Nick
What did the box look like?
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 28, 2005 at 12:54:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/28/05 12:27:45 PM, mattzielinski@hotmail.com writes:
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind
What did the box look like?
Howard
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 28, 2005 at 12:17:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick
No they didnt say where it was but they were sifting through a large box that was briming with it……
Please elaborate on what you mean by this >>>>>>>They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind
One love
a -matt
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:17:12 -0000
and the bwitit did give me this message to pass along so feel free to hand it out to anyone u wish
UNITY
and they also said that they have over 1kg of iboga hcl….all i could say is why… hcl?
crazy bwitist
Because HCl is also great! Don’t believe the ideas put out by the holistics who say you have to take whole root for they are operating from a position of low awareness. They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind. Yes, this is the message! Did they say where it was?
Nick
with love
matt
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From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory
Date: November 28, 2005 at 10:07:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Krista,
Just to let you know I am going to thoroughly review and check the two pages I have listed as giving safety info. I also intend to pass them by people in the know for further inspection and opinion.
I do recognise your concern and it is a valid one.
Lee
Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Krista,
My site is principally aimed towards low dose usage for personal healing. However high doses are also part of the healing that I am daily seeking to comprehend and catalog. So the safety info I provide is aimed at the worse case sceanario.
I attempt to provide as much practical info on safety as possible as I know people will self treat (with or without that info) and i also list important links re: treatment etc. See this page for instance:
www.my-eboga.com/providers.html
As you point out your beef is not with the material I write on dealing with trauma. Your concern is with safety and you are absolutely right. Regarding the current debate I put out the alternate theory to elicit a response to widen the knowledge on this death. And the knowledge we now have is much more than we had. That does not mean I believe my own theory in this instance or that I am arrogant enough to think I can make a fully informed judgement – I have already consulted privately others who might know something on this for their opinion – but I can raise doubts. At present I am constructing a table of fatalities to be armed in public debate & also to help others, and I want to generate as much debate/off-list communication as possible to complete it:
www.my-eboga.com/risks.html
Looking through my own site there are 2 pages which border on technical advice. The rest is safe ground imo. They are:
www.my-eboga.com/administration.html
www.my-eboga.com/safety.html
On the top of the page on administration is this:
“I would like to share some personal observations on the taking of eboga (ibogaine) based on my own use over a 6 year period.”
Not to be boring but briefly my background is: 7 years of varied personal experience, an MSc in Chemistry, assisting and observation with 3 other providers and ongoing communication with 2 reputable providers, one of whom is a close friend. Any information that goes onto these pages is considered to be safe information in my judgement or alternative views that are worth pondering.
All that said, I would be grateful if you could point to any items of technical information I have listed on these 2 pages that are not generally accepted as good practise. The first item on the safety page is: Beginners Begin Low. I am happy to debate them and change them if the debate should indicate so.
I generally reread and amend these pages from time to time to try and be as spot on as I can be. I would not post these pages if I did not believe that on balance they are for the good. If there is something there you consider eroneous can you please point it out?
Thank you for making your concerns know. I am delighted that you have taken the time to question what I have posted on my site. It all helps to get things right in the end and any particular critical observation on what I have placed there is more than welcome.
In future I may set up a vetting procedure with this information and have it agreed upon by the providers with whom I am in contact. Thanks once again for your inadvertent guidance.
🙂
Lee
Krista Vaughan <krista.vaughan@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to write that Howard 🙂
I haven’t been here that long and I know you get knocked for some of
your views Lee and I think anyone who promotes knowledge of ibogaine
is doing a good thing, but some of the time when I read your site I
get a little weirded out. Not by the religion or pain stuff, to each
their own but you’re writing a lot of text about something you don’t
seem to understand that well. Information is incredibly useful, but
when it’s wrong or something that someone wrote in some file online or
conversation, is being used as a fact then it doesn’t seem like any of
it is that useful because the real information is often missing or
you’re going so fast and trying to fill up so many pages of text that
you don’t read what you’re quoting.
Not knowing anything and not caring is one thing, but what about
people who read something you write that is way way off, take it as
fact, then think they know what they’re doing when really most of what
they know is wrong it seems like they’d be better off with ignorance
then the wrong information.
How will you feel if someone follows your instructions or reads
something you wrote, takes it seriously and then dies following your
advice? I know that some on this list are incredibly smart and write
very detailed technical and medical articles even if they are not a
PHD like Howard, Patrick, Jon Freedlander some others, but reading
their texts I have this feeling that maybe I don’t understand all of
it, but it sounds like it makes sense. With a lot of what you write,
it looks like you’re taking a lot of things other people wrote, mixing
them all together with your opinions and then ending up with?
KV
On 11/27/05, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/26/05 6:50:40 AM, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
>
>
>
> Last night thinking on this:
>
> The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9
> grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good
> reason) per Howards:
>
> Forms & Dose Regimens
> www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
> For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
>
>
>
> Dear Lee,
>
> I just wanted to provide some clarity as to the wording of your text
> above. First, thank you for providing the link to my powerpoint
> presentation on form, dose and regimen. What I want to be clear on is it is
> you and not I, who is stating that Marc Emery’s approach is conservative.
>
> You might take a look at the section of the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy
> that describes a dose regimen provided by Marc. Personally, it scared the
> hell out of me.
>
> http://ibogaine.org/manual.html#distreat
>
> “We have recently used the following regimen to clear a methadone dependent
> person who was taking 300 mg of methadone per day.
> At 52 hours after the patient’s last 300 mg. methadone dose, we gave him
> 5,200 mg Indra extract.
> Over the next 72 hours, the patient has no physical withdrawal as per usual
> (in other words, no diarrhea, vomiting, sweating, running nose, pounding
> headache) but felt miserable.
> 72 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg Ibogaine
> Hydrochloride.
> 96 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg.
> Ibogaine hydrochloride.
> 120 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 3,800 mg.
> Indra extract.
> 168 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo
> HCI.
> 192 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo
> HCI.
> By his 11th day here (12 days from his last 300 mg. methadone dose), he was
> bright, sharp, lucid, no slurring, no signs of any methadone, no withdrawal
> or craving or discomfort of any kind. Patient said “I like the way I’m
> thinking now.”
> Patient ate little in the 12 days. Lost 25 pounds. Looks robust, healthy
> skin. “On methadone, I gained 110 pounds” he commented”. The ibogaine is
> returning him to his regular body weight I feel.”
>
> I would also like to bring to your attention two of the slides in my
> presentation that provide notices (caveats) relating to the dose information
> given.
>
> (slide)
> “All doses are representative. Doses, including single administration doses
> are determined on a patient by patient basis. The graphs of dose regimens
> and information that follow should not be used by persons without experience
> to self-administer or administer to others any dose of ibogaine or total
> alkaloid extract of Tabernanthe iboga.”
>
> (slide)
> “All doses and dose regimens shown or discussed are representative and are
> not indicated to be provided to any other patient or subject. All doses and
> dose regimens are made on a patient by patient basis upon knowledge and
> prior art.”
>
> The purpose of the slide presentation was to demonstrate the diversity of
> doses only and not to indicate doses that should be used nor to comment on
> whether the doses were conservative or aggressive, only that doses may be
> diverse and that patient responses may be equally diverse. The slides
> representing activity demonstrate how varied the effects can be.
>
> Thanks for your understanding.
>
> Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory
Date: November 28, 2005 at 9:23:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Krista,
My site is principally aimed towards low dose usage for personal healing. However high doses are also part of the healing that I am daily seeking to comprehend and catalog. So the safety info I provide is aimed at the worse case sceanario.
I attempt to provide as much practical info on safety as possible as I know people will self treat (with or without that info) and i also list important links re: treatment etc. See this page for instance:
www.my-eboga.com/providers.html
As you point out your beef is not with the material I write on dealing with trauma. Your concern is with safety and you are absolutely right. Regarding the current debate I put out the alternate theory to elicit a response to widen the knowledge on this death. And the knowledge we now have is much more than we had. That does not mean I believe my own theory in this instance or that I am arrogant enough to think I can make a fully informed judgement – I have already consulted privately others who might know something on this for their opinion – but I can raise doubts. At present I am constructing a table of fatalities to be armed in public debate & also to help others, and I want to generate as much debate/off-list communication as possible to complete it:
www.my-eboga.com/risks.html
Looking through my own site there are 2 pages which border on technical advice. The rest is safe ground imo. They are:
www.my-eboga.com/administration.html
www.my-eboga.com/safety.html
On the top of the page on administration is this:
“I would like to share some personal observations on the taking of eboga (ibogaine) based on my own use over a 6 year period.”
Not to be boring but briefly my background is: 7 years of varied personal experience, an MSc in Chemistry, assisting and observation with 3 other providers and ongoing communication with 2 reputable providers, one of whom is a close friend. Any information that goes onto these pages is considered to be safe information in my judgement or alternative views that are worth pondering.
All that said, I would be grateful if you could point to any items of technical information I have listed on these 2 pages that are not generally accepted as good practise. The first item on the safety page is: Beginners Begin Low. I am happy to debate them and change them if the debate should indicate so.
I generally reread and amend these pages from time to time to try and be as spot on as I can be. I would not post these pages if I did not believe that on balance they are for the good. If there is something there you consider eroneous can you please point it out?
Thank you for making your concerns know. I am delighted that you have taken the time to question what I have posted on my site. It all helps to get things right in the end and any particular critical observation on what I have placed there is more than welcome.
In future I may set up a vetting procedure with this information and have it agreed upon by the providers with whom I am in contact. Thanks once again for your inadvertent guidance.
🙂
Lee
Krista Vaughan <krista.vaughan@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to write that Howard 🙂
I haven’t been here that long and I know you get knocked for some of
your views Lee and I think anyone who promotes knowledge of ibogaine
is doing a good thing, but some of the time when I read your site I
get a little weirded out. Not by the religion or pain stuff, to each
their own but you’re writing a lot of text about something you don’t
seem to understand that well. Information is incredibly useful, but
when it’s wrong or something that someone wrote in some file online or
conversation, is being used as a fact then it doesn’t seem like any of
it is that useful because the real information is often missing or
you’re going so fast and trying to fill up so many pages of text that
you don’t read what you’re quoting.
Not knowing anything and not caring is one thing, but what about
people who read something you write that is way way off, take it as
fact, then think they know what they’re doing when really most of what
they know is wrong it seems like they’d be better off with ignorance
then the wrong information.
How will you feel if someone follows your instructions or reads
something you wrote, takes it seriously and then dies following your
advice? I know that some on this list are incredibly smart and write
very detailed technical and medical articles even if they are not a
PHD like Howard, Patrick, Jon Freedlander some others, but reading
their texts I have this feeling that maybe I don’t understand all of
it, but it sounds like it makes sense. With a lot of what you write,
it looks like you’re taking a lot of things other people wrote, mixing
them all together with your opinions and then ending up with?
KV
On 11/27/05, HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/26/05 6:50:40 AM, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
>
>
>
> Last night thinking on this:
>
> The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9
> grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good
> reason) per Howards:
>
> Forms & Dose Regimens
> www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
> For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
>
>
>
> Dear Lee,
>
> I just wanted to provide some clarity as to the wording of your text
> above. First, thank you for providing the link to my powerpoint
> presentation on form, dose and regimen. What I want to be clear on is it is
> you and not I, who is stating that Marc Emery’s approach is conservative.
>
> You might take a look at the section of the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy
> that describes a dose regimen provided by Marc. Personally, it scared the
> hell out of me.
>
> http://ibogaine.org/manual.html#distreat
>
> “We have recently used the following regimen to clear a methadone dependent
> person who was taking 300 mg of methadone per day.
> At 52 hours after the patient’s last 300 mg. methadone dose, we gave him
> 5,200 mg Indra extract.
> Over the next 72 hours, the patient has no physical withdrawal as per usual
> (in other words, no diarrhea, vomiting, sweating, running nose, pounding
> headache) but felt miserable.
> 72 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg Ibogaine
> Hydrochloride.
> 96 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg.
> Ibogaine hydrochloride.
> 120 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 3,800 mg.
> Indra extract.
> 168 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo
> HCI.
> 192 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo
> HCI.
> By his 11th day here (12 days from his last 300 mg. methadone dose), he was
> bright, sharp, lucid, no slurring, no signs of any methadone, no withdrawal
> or craving or discomfort of any kind. Patient said “I like the way I’m
> thinking now.”
> Patient ate little in the 12 days. Lost 25 pounds. Looks robust, healthy
> skin. “On methadone, I gained 110 pounds” he commented”. The ibogaine is
> returning him to his regular body weight I feel.”
>
> I would also like to bring to your attention two of the slides in my
> presentation that provide notices (caveats) relating to the dose information
> given.
>
> (slide)
> “All doses are representative. Doses, including single administration doses
> are determined on a patient by patient basis. The graphs of dose regimens
> and information that follow should not be used by persons without experience
> to self-administer or administer to others any dose of ibogaine or total
> alkaloid extract of Tabernanthe iboga.”
>
> (slide)
> “All doses and dose regimens shown or discussed are representative and are
> not indicated to be provided to any other patient or subject. All doses and
> dose regimens are made on a patient by patient basis upon knowledge and
> prior art.”
>
> The purpose of the slide presentation was to demonstrate the diversity of
> doses only and not to indicate doses that should be used nor to comment on
> whether the doses were conservative or aggressive, only that doses may be
> diverse and that patient responses may be equally diverse. The slides
> representing activity demonstrate how varied the effects can be.
>
> Thanks for your understanding.
>
> Howard
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory
Date: November 28, 2005 at 8:16:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Howard,
Thanks for posting this.
Lee
HSLotsof@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/26/05 6:50:40 AM, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9 grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
Dear Lee,
I just wanted to provide some clarity as to the wording of your text above.  First, thank you for providing the link to my powerpoint presentation on form, dose and regimen.  What I want to be clear on is it is you and not I, who is stating that Marc Emery’s approach is conservative.
You might take a look at the section of the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy that describes a dose regimen provided by Marc.  Personally, it scared the hell out of me.
http://ibogaine.org/manual.html#distreat
“We have recently used the following regimen to clear a methadone dependent person who was taking 300 mg of methadone per day.
At 52 hours after the patient’s last 300 mg. methadone dose, we gave him 5,200 mg Indra extract.
Over the next 72 hours, the patient has no physical withdrawal as per usual (in other words, no diarrhea, vomiting, sweating, running nose, pounding headache) but felt miserable.
72 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg Ibogaine Hydrochloride.
96 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibogaine hydrochloride.
120 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 3,800 mg. Indra extract.
168 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo HCI.
192 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo HCI.
By his 11th day here (12 days from his last 300 mg. methadone dose), he was bright, sharp, lucid, no slurring, no signs of any methadone, no withdrawal or craving or discomfort of any kind. Patient said “I like the way I’m thinking now.”
Patient ate little in the 12 days. Lost 25 pounds. Looks robust, healthy skin. “On methadone, I gained 110 pounds” he commented”. The ibogaine is returning him to his regular body weight I feel.”
I would also like to bring to your attention two of the slides in my presentation that provide notices (caveats) relating to the dose information given.
(slide)
“All doses are representative. Doses, including single administration doses are determined on a patient by patient basis. The graphs of dose regimens and information that follow should not be used by persons without experience to self-administer or administer to others any dose of ibogaine or total alkaloid extract of Tabernanthe iboga.”
(slide)
“All doses and dose regimens shown or discussed are representative and are not indicated to be provided to any other patient or subject. All doses and dose regimens are made on a patient by patient basis upon knowledge and prior art.”
The purpose of the slide presentation was to demonstrate the diversity of doses only and not to indicate doses that should be used nor to comment on whether the doses were conservative or aggressive, only that doses may be diverse and that patient responses may be equally diverse.  The slides representing activity demonstrate how varied the effects can be.
Thanks for your understanding.
Howard
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 28, 2005 at 6:17:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
and the bwitit did give me this message to pass along so feel free to hand it out to anyone u wish
UNITY
and they also said that they have over 1kg of iboga hcl….all i could say is why… hcl?
crazy bwitist
Because HCl is also great! Don’t believe the ideas put out by the holistics who say you have to take whole root for they are operating from a position of low awareness. They cannot see that the division between what is man-made and what is nature-made is purely in the mind. Yes, this is the message! Did they say where it was?
Nick
with love
matt
Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – addition
Date: November 28, 2005 at 5:57:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 27 November 2005 12:40
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – addition
Hi Nick,
There are two q’s going through my mind:
1. Was Hep-C active in JW at the time or was he in remission?
2. What was his drug intake at the time?
Hi Lee,
I don’t know the answers to either of these questions. Sorry
Nick
Sorry to keep pushing this but I think there is a lot of fear around the dangers of ibogaine which is preventing us from looking at the obvious.
What I think is also clear is this: A knowledge of the problems that can result from withdrawals is knowledge which a provider should have. Perhaps Dr Ed would be good enough to put a link to a good book on the subject?
I notice on the iboga therapy website they have a very thorough and comprehensive screening and treatment program erring on the side of caution and includes a holistic approach to the treatment of addiction.
(See: www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse3558.ram) &
www.ibogatherapyhouse.com)
They also train their people to EMT level 1.
“First Responders (EMT 1) — are trained to provide basic emergency medical care because they tend to be the first persons to arrive at the scene of an incident. Many firefighters, police officers and other emergency workers have this level of training. The EMT-Basic, also known as EMT-1, represents the first component of the emergency medical technician system. An EMT-1 is trained to care for patients at the scene of an accident and while transporting patients by ambulance to the hospital under medical direction. The EMT-1 has the emergency skills to assess a patient’s condition and manage respiratory, cardiac and trauma emergencies.”
From reading the training on EMT and paramedics it seems to me that with proper equipment and a trained emergency paramedic at hand with access to a doctor on call, a client would receive a pretty secure medical environment.
Here is an excerpt from a training program:
“The EMT-Intermediate (EMT-2 and EMT-3) has more advanced training that allows the administration of intravenous fluids, the use of manual defibrillators to give life-saving shocks to a stopped heart, and the application of advanced airway techniques and equipment to assist patients experiencing respiratory emergencies. EMT-Paramedics (EMT-4) provide the most extensive prehospital care. In addition to carrying out the procedures already described, paramedics may administer drugs orally and intravenously, interpret electrocardiograms (EKGs), perform endotracheal intubations, and use monitors and other complex equipment.”
From what i have read they are also able to interpret the kinds of heart conditions that have been flagged and to respond appropriately.
I would add that it seems to me that rehydration via intravenous drip would seem a good standard if possible.
I wonder is there any way Providers could recieve inexpensive EMT level 1 training? Perhaps someone from the Iboga Therapy House could tell us how they manage it and what it costs?
Lee
Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
this actually does make a lot of sense to me too.
the idea that low doses that really are not large enough may leave a patient
ill, in withdrwal, and not able to deal with adverse health conditions.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative
Theory – addition
Something which maybe we can consider with this death is this:
In administering extract or HCl a dose which is insufficient or low may
precipitate adverse medical conditions due to the onset of withdrawals and
clients need to be carefully supervised in the days following treatment to
ensure the risk of such events has passed.
Lee
Lee Albert wrote:
Nick,
Thanks mucho. The extra info you have given here is great. Many thanks.
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9
grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good
reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
According to: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1/Ibogaine.html
The third recorded fatality occurred in 2000, in the U.K. The patient was a
38 year old male, and suffered from hepatitis C. He was administered a total
of approximately 5 grams of a total iboga extract standardised to 15%
ibogaine. This was a most peculiar case, as the fatality did not occur until
after the effects of ibogaine had subsided, 38 hours after initial
administration. Police toxicologist Dr. John Taylor told testified that the
level of ibogaine in the dead man’s blood was “well below the normal toxic
dose” (Kerr, 2001). According to writer Nick Sandberg (2002), the official
inquest named the primary cause of death as asphyxiation due to vomit
clogging airways, with liver failure as a secondary cause.
What is interesting is that this states 5grams and indeed most of the other
reports I have seen also state 5 grams, so I am not sure if you are 100% on
the amount?
Anyway, I assume JW was being treated for Heroin or was he on Methadone
maintenance at the time?
In either case, the amount he took is below what would normally be given and
I am left with the thought that death may have been due to insufficient
iboga extract been given resulting in an onset of late withdrawls agitated
in part by choking on a sandwich. This coupled with any other health issues
JW may have had such as Hep C. According to Dr Ed:
“Disorders appearing during “recovery,” included gastrointestinal
hyperactivity/acidity (ulcers, gastro-esophageal reflux, diarrhea, etc.) and
thrombosis (coronary occlusions, thrombophlebitis with pulmonary
embolism/infarction, arterial thrombosis-mesenteric occlusion/cerebral
artery strokes) and infection at sites previous dormant during stress
(pneumonia, dental and skin abscesses, etc.) In addition, gastro-esophageal
reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the
lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g.
Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).”
5grams of extract (based on the generally recognised 15% ibogaine content)
is equivalent to 750mg of ibogaine (6=900mg), a very small amount indeed.
For a 70kg male = 10,7mg/kg and 12,85 mg/kg respectively. In either case
much too low for heroin interruption treatment especially if only 5grams
were given.
So I find myself reading the coroners conclusions as basically uninformed
and highly speculative as the coroner knew nothing of the amounts of
ibogaine/extract needed for addiction treatment and perhaps knew nothing
about the complications of withdrawal as stated by Dr. Ed (whose
contributions to this list I find “wonderful”).
In this case I think withdrawals of some kind were inevitable and what this
report shows about the dangers of ibogaine or the extract itself, as opposed
to withdrawing from heroin, is this: nothing. Its quite possibly a big red
herring. In fact one could argue that death was due to insufficient
ibogaine/extract been given.
Lee
Nick Sandberg wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 25 November 2005 16:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Nick,
Can you set the record even straighter?
There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.
I have heard it reported as:
1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the
stomach .
and as you state below:
2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended
in the toilet.
Hi Lee,
I’ve not heard of the first scenario. It was number 2. I knew the girl who
gave the treatment and was at the inquest, both sittings. When the patient
began to die paramedics were called and one said that it looked like a
stomach burst. This story got propagated about for a while as it was another
year until the actual inquest began. The first inquest was adjourned when I
pointed out that J had not taken actual ibogaine but rather the Indra iboga
extract. Dr Mash was contacted by the pathologist and she confirmed that the
blood samples taken show low traces of iboga extract not pure ibogaine. The
pathologist’s report put cause of death down to inhalation of vomit, if I
recall correctly, but am not 100% on this. The coroner recorded “fatal
reaction to t.iboga extract.” Dr Mash was keen that ibogaine itself not be
blamed when J had not taken it. A year or so later t.iboga was put on a list
of substances due to be controlled in the UK. However the paper never went
through, there were 50 or so other herbs on it, and thus iboga is still not
scheduled in the UK. (Though supply would likely be an offense).
Are these two sceanarios the same person?
Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling
ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?
Frankly, if there had been a defense pathologist in court (one defending the
iboga extract) I very much doubt that the verdict would have come out the
way it did. It’s more that the coroner, Paul Knapp, if I recall, regarded it
as his duty to warn the public of any dangerous new substances about (fair
enough in a way) and as there was no one there to cross examine the state
pathologist he did just that.
Let me know if you need more
Nick
Thanks
Lee
Nick Sandberg wrote:
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been
attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in
London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long
term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga
extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some
38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine
deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”
Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone
else’s mouth. I don’t even see that idea implied here. If we are talking
about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can
be as bad as disinformation. The implication is that death by aspiration
could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine
use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN
AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning). Vomiting is certainly
a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of
food from recent eating. That is why when someone suffers a convulsive
seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction
of the air-way by the tongue. Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures,
sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a
dependency drug. You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much”
benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for
alcohol. Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and
especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present
thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”
Peace, Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of
acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and
sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in
the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux.
Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of
vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach
just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that
sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they
will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a
lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may
come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal
chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who
is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to
vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux
inhalation?
I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise
the acid and food would stay in the stomach. Reflux happens easier during
reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured
by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest. Dr. Ed.
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “Sara Glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative  Theory
Date: November 28, 2005 at 2:05:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
the info. below is not correct.
11 gram will not be taken at once but in stepwise in small dosages,only
if the person needs it and that is to observe during the treatment, that
is not a rule and i will not advice anyone to do that.
beside Marc Emery got the info. about the use of step dosages
for methedone withdrawals from me. only he put it in his own words
as if he was a knowledgable provider who had treated people but as we all
know already Sandra K. was doing the job.
Emery was getting the credits because he donated money to those
foundations which promote him only. thanks for waking up, MAPS people,
maybe Sandra will get the credits in the future.
Sara
In a message dated 11/26/05 6:50:40 AM, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara
and 9
grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for
good
reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
Dear Lee,
I just wanted to provide some clarity as to the wording of your text
above.
First, thank you for providing the link to my powerpoint presentation on
form, dose and regimen.   What I want to be clear on is it is you and not
I, who
is stating that Marc Emery’s approach is conservative.
You might take a look at the section of the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy
that
describes a dose regimen provided by Marc.   Personally, it scared the
hell
out of me.
http://ibogaine.org/manual.html#distreat
“We have recently used the following regimen to clear a methadone
dependent
person who was taking 300 mg of methadone per day.
At 52 hours after the patient’s last 300 mg. methadone dose, we gave him
5,200 mg Indra extract.
Over the next 72 hours, the patient has no physical withdrawal as per
usual
(in other words, no diarrhea, vomiting, sweating, running nose, pounding
headache) but felt miserable.
72 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg
Ibogaine
Hydrochloride.
96 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg.
Ibogaine
hydrochloride.
120 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 3,800 mg.
Indra
extract.
168 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo
HCI.
192 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo
HCI.
By his 11th day here (12 days from his last 300 mg. methadone dose), he
was
bright, sharp, lucid, no slurring, no signs of any methadone, no
withdrawal or
craving or discomfort of any kind. Patient said “I like the way I’m
thinking
now.”
Patient ate little in the 12 days. Lost 25 pounds. Looks robust, healthy
skin. “On methadone, I gained 110 pounds” he commented”. The ibogaine is
returning
him to his regular body weight I feel.”
I would also like to bring to your attention two of the slides in my
presentation that provide notices (caveats) relating to the dose
information given.
(slide)
“All doses are representative. Doses, including single administration
doses
are determined on a patient by patient basis. The graphs of dose regimens
and
information that follow should not be used by persons without experience
to
self-administer or administer to others any dose of ibogaine or total
alkaloid
extract of Tabernanthe iboga.”
(slide)
“All doses and dose regimens shown or discussed are representative and are
not indicated to be provided to any other patient or subject. All doses
and dose
regimens are made on a patient by patient basis upon knowledge and prior
art
.”
The purpose of the slide presentation was to demonstrate the diversity of
doses only and not to indicate doses that should be used nor to comment on
whether the doses were conservative or aggressive, only that doses may be
diverse
and that patient responses may be equally diverse.   The slides
representing
activity demonstrate how varied the effects can be.
Thanks for your understanding.
Howard
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From: kiersten johnson <kiers10@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] OT Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Date: November 28, 2005 at 2:03:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston and everyone,
As much as I would love to see the so-called leader of the so-called free world fried, indeed carmelized,  and arrested, and put away for a very long time behind bars, and not in one of those fancy martha stewart style wildflower growing minimum security situations, but a really gritty, gnarly, dank house of corrections, the article, when it does cite a source, calls upon the great authority of those august reporters at the National Enquirer. That pretty much means that, whether these allegations are actually true, this particular reportage is a luscious fiction. We don’t need to make shit up to prove that the man and his cadre are lunatics and hypocritical malicious maniacs. And citing such drivel kinda makes us look like the crazy ladies in curlers and slippers in front of you in line at the quickie-mart who marvel over Elvis citings or really really believe that that two-headed baby was born on Venus and traveled to earth  in a golden peapod, because that’s how they do it on Venus, and one day it will grow up just in time to save the world….
cheers and x0x
Kiersten
On Nov 27, 2005, at 10:12 AM, jon wrote:
Hi Preston,
Glad to hear you’re doing well =) I wouldn’t beat yourself up about the dilaudid… i mean you obviously have a legitimate medical reason for using it from time to time. I’d only start to worry if you find yourself using it for reasons other than that legitimate medical reason…
Anyhow, this article you posted reminded me a lot of some passages from the Illuminatus! trilogy…
“Don’t say wop,” the President shouted back. “How many times do I have to tell you? Don’t say wop or kike or any of those words anymore.” He spoke with some asperity, since he lived daily with the dread that someday the secret tapes he kept of all Oval Room transactions would be released to the public. He had long ago vowed that if that day ever came, the tapes would not be full of “(expletive deleted)” or “(characterization deleted).” He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of Russia and China.
……
In Moscow, where it was ten the next morning, the Premier called a conference and said crisply, “That character in Washington is a mental lunatic, and he means it. Get our men out of Fernando Poo right away, then find out who authorized sending them in there in the first place and transfer him to be supervisor of a hydroelectric works in Outer Mongolia.”
“We don’t have any men in Fernando Poo,” a commissar said mournfully. ‘The Americans are imagining things again.”
“Well, how the hell can we withdraw men if we don’t have them there in the first place?” the Premier demanded.
“I don’t know. We’ve got twenty-four hours to figure that out, or-” the commissar quoted an old Russian proverb which means, roughly, that when the polar bear excrement interferes with the fan belts, the machinery overheats.
“Suppose we just announce that our troops are coming out?” another commissar suggested. “They can’t say we’re lying if they don’t find any of our troops there afterward.”
“No, they never believe anything we say. They want to be shown,” the premier said thoughtfully. “We’ll have to infiltrate some troops surreptitiously and then withdraw them with a lot of fanfare and publicity. That should do it.”
“I’m afraid it won’t end the problem,” another pommissar said funereally. “Our intelligence indicates that there are Chinese troops there. Unless Peking backs down, we’re going to be caught in the middle when the bombs start flying and-” he quoted a proverb about the man in the intersection when two manure trucks collide.
“Damn,” the Premier said. “What the blue blazes do the Chinese want with Fernando Poo?”
He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on schizophrenia; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of America and China.
…..
“We’ll just get our troops out of Fernando Poo,” the Chairman of the Chinese Communist party said on April 1. “A place that size isn’t worth world war.”
“But we don’t have any troops there,” an aide told him, “it’s the Russians who do.”
“Oh?” the Chairman quoted a proverb to the effect that there was urine in the rosewater. “I wonder what the hell the Russians want with Fernando Poo?” he added thoughtfully.
He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of America and Russia.
HI all and happy Sunday morning.
I ran into a very old friend and fellow ibogaine list member, who noted more than once how happy he was to see me doing (or looking, I wasn’t always sure) so well compared to how I have at time been doing, which was a nice thing to hear (more than once, so it coulda also been the alcohol he was drinking- still, I prefer to put it down to his honest observations), as it only validate my decision and the carrying out of said decision.
Which btw, I have to say I’m doing remarkably well with (KNOCK LOUDLY UPON WOOD, THREE TIMES- personal twist on superstious bologna, so please humor me) my severe, strict adherance to my own personal teeny level of medical pain relief, trying to see if I can manage to do it on my own, but I have found there have been more than once when I simply had to take a couple dilaudid (orally) to help nail the swelling, heaving, growing pain. Otherwise, I’m for the moment doing well and am trying to give myself credit for doing so. I think it’s going to take a little while for it to become obvious to certain other sthat I mean what I’ve said and really am doing this, among other behavioral and habit changes that have nothing to do with drugs. If I get the time to show it instead of saying it (which I’m not doing except here in print, which is why I noted I’m trying to give myself credit because I can’t do it anywhere else- these are what I use as my groups instead of classic -A type grounps, as I told my friend last night) no problem I believe.
Anyway, on with the article about the President using hard drugs both legal and non.
Ohhhhh, if only this story is true, it’s a beaut. But….
Personally I’m never sure just how to take Tom Flocco’s information and reporting,
as he seems to pretty far in accusatory language but doesn’t seem to always
source his info, often who are “un-named,” or “anonymous,”  which makes it difficult to follow up on the story, (although out of the rest of the articles total reliance on unnamed sources all over the place, the name of the doctor supposedly writing the prescriptions for Ritilan and Prozac for Bush is named, a Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician, so feel free to follow this up if you have the time) such as this juicy but gossipy
piece on George W. Bush not only still drinking, but taking Prozac as well as
doing cocaine, these days as President of the United States, not years ago as
a frat boy or US Navy pilot. If this story is true that is.
http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/SecretServIntelSay.htm
Tom Flocco.com
http://tomflocco.com/
Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Date: Thursday, November 17
Topic: —
“It is not for kings, O Lemuel-not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer, lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.” Proverbs 31: 4-5
Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, Prozac, alcohol
Federal agents question out-of-control White House operating “under the influence” while continuing historical pattern of untested drug usage at highest levels places presidents above the law, jeopardizing the safety of all Americans
by Tom Flocco
Washington-November 17, 2005-TomFlocco.com-Secret Service members attached to White House domestic security, FBI and CIA agents, and written national security field reports all confirm that President Bush has been using drugs which could be affecting his performance as the nation’s war-time commander-in-chief.
Multiple federal agents having direct knowledge and access to Bush’s medical records say the President has switched from using Ritalin to taking Prozac while also succumbing to periodic alcoholic binges which have led to tirades and explosive personal conduct among White House aides, absent required random drug testing of all public employees and elected officials.
Federal law enforcement agents have at different times witnessed President Bush doing lines of cocaine in the early morning hours at the White House and drinking straight shots of whiskey in the evening hours on other occasions, according to U.S. intelligence sources who confirm multiple stories appearing in the tabloid press which say the First Lady is assigned to “keep an eye on him.”
Bush’s alleged conduct raises serious questions as to what effect the chemicals are having on his oval office decision-making, and why Democrats and Republicans facing coming voter backlash-while undoubtedly having heard the whispers-are failing to call for the release of Bush’s medical records for bipartisan congressional scrutiny.
Legislators have also failed to ask Bush to submit to drug-testing when they required President Clinton to submit to similar tests to confirm a match of his DNA with spots found on Monica Lewinsky’s blue dress-a matter of far less consequence to U.S. national security than the effects of Mr. Bush’s alleged ongoing chemical dependency.
Having observed the President smirk and laugh when discussing the war or other serious matters of state at press conferences, the White House press corps has thus far refused to muster the courage to ask whether Bush will have himself tested for drugs or whether he considers himself above the law compared to all other federal employees.
U.S. intelligence sources having direct contact with White House domestic security told TomFlocco.com that multiple federal agents would be willing to testify before a grand jury if subpoenaed regarding what they have seen and heard pertaining to Mr. Bush’s drug and alcohol usage.
Secret Service and intelligence officials are reportedly concerned about public safety while Mr. Bush has access to nuclear weapons without being subject to random drug testing to determine how the addictions are affecting his ability to govern.
Bush’s doses of Ritalin and Prozac are reportedly administered by Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician; and medical journals say they can impair the President’s mental faculties and decrease both his physical capabilities and his ability to respond to a crisis.
Medical reports also say that mixing cocaine with alcohol produces a substance in the blood called “cocaethylene” which can be more toxic to the body than the cocaine itself.
Dr. Justin Frank, a Washington D.C. psychiatrist and author of Bush On The Couch-Inside The Mind Of The President, told The National Enquirer: “I do think that Bush is drinking again. Alcoholics who are not in any program, like the President, have a hard time when stress gets to be great.”
snip-
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: Krista Vaughan <krista.vaughan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory
Date: November 28, 2005 at 12:19:24 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for taking the time to write that Howard 🙂
I haven’t been here that long and I know you get knocked for some of
your views Lee and I think anyone who promotes knowledge of ibogaine
is doing a good thing, but some of the time when I read your site I
get a little weirded out. Not by the religion or pain stuff, to each
their own but you’re writing a lot of text about something you don’t
seem to understand that well. Information is incredibly useful, but
when it’s wrong or something that someone wrote in some file online or
conversation, is being used as a fact then it doesn’t seem like any of
it is that useful because the real information is often missing or
you’re going so fast and trying to fill up so many pages of text that
you don’t read what you’re quoting.
Not knowing anything and not caring is one thing, but what about
people who read something you write that is way way off, take it as
fact, then think they know what they’re doing when really most of what
they know is wrong it seems like they’d be better off with ignorance
then the wrong information.
How will you feel if someone follows your instructions or reads
something you wrote, takes it seriously and then dies following your
advice? I know that some on this list are incredibly smart and write
very detailed technical and medical articles even if they are not a
PHD like Howard, Patrick, Jon Freedlander some others, but reading
their texts I have this feeling that maybe I don’t understand all of
it, but it sounds like it makes sense. With a lot of what you write,
it looks like you’re taking a lot of things other people wrote, mixing
them all together with your opinions and then ending up with?
KV
On 11/27/05, HSLotsof@aol.com <HSLotsof@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 11/26/05 6:50:40 AM, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9
grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good
reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
Dear Lee,
I just wanted to provide some clarity as to the wording of your text
above.  First, thank you for providing the link to my powerpoint
presentation on form, dose and regimen.  What I want to be clear on is it is
you and not I, who is stating that Marc Emery’s approach is conservative.
You might take a look at the section of the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy
that describes a dose regimen provided by Marc.  Personally, it scared the
hell out of me.
http://ibogaine.org/manual.html#distreat
“We have recently used the following regimen to clear a methadone dependent
person who was taking 300 mg of methadone per day.
At 52 hours after the patient’s last 300 mg. methadone dose, we gave him
5,200 mg Indra extract.
Over the next 72 hours, the patient has no physical withdrawal as per usual
(in other words, no diarrhea, vomiting, sweating, running nose, pounding
headache) but felt miserable.
72 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg Ibogaine
Hydrochloride.
96 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg.
Ibogaine hydrochloride.
120 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 3,800 mg.
Indra extract.
168 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo
HCI.
192 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo
HCI.
By his 11th day here (12 days from his last 300 mg. methadone dose), he was
bright, sharp, lucid, no slurring, no signs of any methadone, no withdrawal
or craving or discomfort of any kind. Patient said “I like the way I’m
thinking now.”
Patient ate little in the 12 days. Lost 25 pounds. Looks robust, healthy
skin. “On methadone, I gained 110 pounds” he commented”. The ibogaine is
returning him to his regular body weight I feel.”
I would also like to bring to your attention two of the slides in my
presentation that provide notices (caveats) relating to the dose information
given.
(slide)
“All doses are representative. Doses, including single administration doses
are determined on a patient by patient basis. The graphs of dose regimens
and information that follow should not be used by persons without experience
to self-administer or administer to others any dose of ibogaine or total
alkaloid extract of Tabernanthe iboga.”
(slide)
“All doses and dose regimens shown or discussed are representative and are
not indicated to be provided to any other patient or subject. All doses and
dose regimens are made on a patient by patient basis upon knowledge and
prior art.”
The purpose of the slide presentation was to demonstrate the diversity of
doses only and not to indicate doses that should be used nor to comment on
whether the doses were conservative or aggressive, only that doses may be
diverse and that patient responses may be equally diverse.  The slides
representing activity demonstrate how varied the effects can be.
Thanks for your understanding.
Howard
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory
Date: November 27, 2005 at 11:51:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/26/05 6:50:40 AM, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9 grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
Dear Lee,
I just wanted to provide some clarity as to the wording of your text above.  First, thank you for providing the link to my powerpoint presentation on form, dose and regimen.  What I want to be clear on is it is you and not I, who is stating that Marc Emery’s approach is conservative.
You might take a look at the section of the Manual for Ibogaine Therapy that describes a dose regimen provided by Marc.  Personally, it scared the hell out of me.
http://ibogaine.org/manual.html#distreat
“We have recently used the following regimen to clear a methadone dependent person who was taking 300 mg of methadone per day.
At 52 hours after the patient’s last 300 mg. methadone dose, we gave him 5,200 mg Indra extract.
Over the next 72 hours, the patient has no physical withdrawal as per usual (in other words, no diarrhea, vomiting, sweating, running nose, pounding headache) but felt miserable.
72 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg Ibogaine Hydrochloride.
96 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibogaine hydrochloride.
120 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 3,800 mg. Indra extract.
168 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo HCI.
192 hours after the first dose of Indra extract, we gave him 100 mg. Ibo HCI.
By his 11th day here (12 days from his last 300 mg. methadone dose), he was bright, sharp, lucid, no slurring, no signs of any methadone, no withdrawal or craving or discomfort of any kind. Patient said “I like the way I’m thinking now.”
Patient ate little in the 12 days. Lost 25 pounds. Looks robust, healthy skin. “On methadone, I gained 110 pounds” he commented”. The ibogaine is returning him to his regular body weight I feel.”
I would also like to bring to your attention two of the slides in my presentation that provide notices (caveats) relating to the dose information given.
(slide)
“All doses are representative. Doses, including single administration doses are determined on a patient by patient basis. The graphs of dose regimens and information that follow should not be used by persons without experience to self-administer or administer to others any dose of ibogaine or total alkaloid extract of Tabernanthe iboga.”
(slide)
“All doses and dose regimens shown or discussed are representative and are not indicated to be provided to any other patient or subject. All doses and dose regimens are made on a patient by patient basis upon knowledge and prior art.”
The purpose of the slide presentation was to demonstrate the diversity of doses only and not to indicate doses that should be used nor to comment on whether the doses were conservative or aggressive, only that doses may be diverse and that patient responses may be equally diverse.  The slides representing activity demonstrate how varied the effects can be.
Thanks for your understanding.
Howard
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 75 bands.
Date: November 27, 2005 at 9:37:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
green day. has that been said?
From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] hcl question
Date: November 27, 2005 at 9:12:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
yesterday i had a wiked session but was puking alot…..dry heaving to the point where i could only get little breaths in
i wiped some spittle of the vomit onto a towel and noticed today that the spot is completly burned out….bleeched out
if hcl does that to fabric what does it do in the stomach or the liver????
with love
I can’t say this for sure, but it’s probably more likely that it was your stomach acids that bleached the towel, rather than the ibogaine.
Remember, pure stomach acid is powerful enough to burn through steel. =)
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] hcl question
Date: November 27, 2005 at 6:57:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
yesterday i had a wiked session but was puking alot…..dry heaving to the point where i could only get little breaths in
i wiped some spittle of the vomit onto a towel and noticed today that the spot is completly burned out….bleeched out
if hcl does that to fabric what does it do in the stomach or the liver????
with love
matt
Enjoy 25MB of inbox storage and 10MB per file attachment with MSN Premium. Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory
Date: November 27, 2005 at 5:23:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 26 November 2005 11:50
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory
Nick,
Thanks mucho. The extra info you have given here is great. Many thanks.
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9 grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
According to: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1/Ibogaine.html
 The third recorded fatality occurred in 2000, in the U.K. The patient was a 38 year old male, and suffered from hepatitis C. He was administered a total of approximately 5 grams of a total iboga extract standardised to 15% ibogaine. This was a most peculiar case, as the fatality did not occur until after the effects of ibogaine had subsided, 38 hours after initial administration. Police toxicologist Dr. John Taylor told testified that the level of ibogaine in the dead man’s blood was “well below the normal toxic dose” (Kerr, 2001). According to writer Nick Sandberg (2002), the official inquest named the primary cause of death as asphyxiation due to vomit clogging airways, with liver failure as a secondary cause.
What is interesting is that this states 5grams and indeed most of the other reports I have seen also state 5 grams, so I am not sure if you are 100% on the amount?
Hi Lee,
What I recall is that JW took 6g of the Indra. I think this is what J, who carried out the treatment (not JW), was told was a good dose for opiate addiction by Carl. I’m pretty sure this was the figure he was putting out while he was in London. I think some was left over and was later analysed by Dr Mash’s lab which may be where 15% comes from. The iboga extract JW took wasn’t standardized. HPLC tests on separate samples of Indra have since shown considerable differences in ibogaine content. I think a 13% spread was noticed between just two samples.This would seem to indicate that the extract wasn’t homogenized or that parts of it had somehow degenerated more than others. Thus there could have been “hot spots” in what JW took and it’s likely hard to make accurate estimates of his actual dose of alkaloids.
About “cause of death” – the pathologist’s report indicated asphyxiation, but in the actual inquest primary cause was recorded as Fatal Reaction to T.iboga Extract.
Anyway, I assume JW was being treated for Heroin or was he on Methadone maintenance at the time?
I think it was methadone.
In either case, the amount he took is below what would normally be given and I am left with the thought that death may have been due to insufficient iboga extract been given resulting in an onset of late withdrawls agitated in part by choking on a sandwich. This coupled with any other health issues JW may have had such as Hep C. According to Dr Ed:
In Jan 2000, 6g was the reckoned dose. 5 years down the line you may well need more, as the stuff was all produced some decades ago for the Danish government, or so the story goes, and of course it does degenerate. Someone from Indra may be able to give more accurate or up to date info.
About your theory above, I don’t know enough about the withdrawal process to comment. The death occurred 38 hours after ingestion, and J told me that JW was coherent and talking about his life for many hours prior to dying. He was exhibiting every sign of having gone through the process and was nearly ready to leave, that’s what I was told.
“Disorders appearing during “recovery,” included gastrointestinal hyperactivity/acidity (ulcers, gastro-esophageal reflux, diarrhea, etc.) and thrombosis (coronary occlusions, thrombophlebitis with pulmonary embolism/infarction, arterial thrombosis-mesenteric occlusion/cerebral artery strokes) and infection at sites previous dormant during stress (pneumonia, dental and skin abscesses, etc.) In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).”
5grams of extract (based on the generally recognised 15% ibogaine content) is equivalent to 750mg of ibogaine (6=900mg), a very small amount indeed. For a 70kg male = 10,7mg/kg and 12,85 mg/kg respectively. In either case much too low for heroin interruption treatment especially if only 5grams were given.
You have to take into account the other iboga alkaloids too. Generally, the figure I’ve heard is that you can roughly double the ibogaine content to bring them into the picture. Meaning he took the equivalent of roughly 1.5g ibogaine base.
So I find myself reading the coroners conclusions as basically uninformed and highly speculative as the coroner knew nothing of the amounts of ibogaine/extract needed for addiction treatment and perhaps knew nothing about the complications of withdrawal as stated by Dr. Ed (whose contributions to this list I find “wonderful”).
The toxicologist could find no published data on ibogaine in humans, for in Jan 2001 there was only one paper out and it hadn’t yet been recorded in the place where these things are kept. (that takes about 12 months I think). When I pointed out that Dr Mash had written a paper that was published in 2000, Dr Knapp adjourned the inquest such that the toxicologist could consult further. So, he was concerned it just that there was a lack of published data.
You have to remember that the court system is basically adversarial over here. If you don’t hire someone to fight your corner, chances are you lose. Indra could have fought the case but chose not to, a fear position if you ask me, but an understandable one. Their extract got blamed and recorded as cause of death. If ibogaine was being marketed by a large company, they would have contested, most certainly have won. But without someone to cross examine, you lose.
Nick
In this case I think withdrawals of some kind were inevitable and what this report shows about the dangers of ibogaine or the extract itself, as opposed to withdrawing from heroin, is this: nothing. Its quite possibly a big red herring. In fact one could argue that death was due to insufficient ibogaine/extract been given.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 25 November 2005 16:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Nick,
Can you set the record even straighter?
There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.
I have heard it reported as:
1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the stomach .
and as you state below:
2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended in the toilet.
Hi Lee,
I’ve not heard of the first scenario. It was number 2. I knew the girl who gave the treatment and was at the inquest, both sittings. When the patient began to die paramedics were called and one said that it looked like a stomach burst. This story got propagated about for a while as it was another year until the actual inquest began. The first inquest was adjourned when I pointed out that J had not taken actual ibogaine but rather the Indra iboga extract. Dr Mash was contacted by the pathologist and she confirmed that the blood samples taken show low traces of iboga extract not pure ibogaine. The pathologist’s report put cause of death down to inhalation of vomit, if I recall correctly, but am not 100% on this. The coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” Dr Mash was keen that ibogaine itself not be blamed when J had not taken it. A year or so later t.iboga was put on a list of substances due to be controlled in the UK. However the paper never went through, there were 50 or so other herbs on it, and thus iboga is still not scheduled in the UK. (Though supply would likely be an offense).
Are these two sceanarios the same person?
Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?
Frankly, if there had been a defense pathologist in court (one defending the iboga extract) I very much doubt that the verdict would have come out the way it did. It’s more that the coroner, Paul Knapp, if I recall, regarded it as his duty to warn the public of any dangerous new substances about (fair enough in a way) and as there was no one there to cross examine the state pathologist he did just that.
Let me know if you need more
Nick
Thanks
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some 38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?
I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 27, 2005 at 3:07:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Other ones i think
The Dead Kennedys
The police
Green Day
Deep Purple(?)
House Party(?)
Can’t figure out the 2 guys in suits and guitars!
On 11/26/05, CallieMimosa@aol.com <CallieMimosa@aol.com> wrote:
The Monkeys
Sex Pistols
Queen
Blues Brothers(?)
Lemonheads
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From: “Cheryl” <cherylca@myway.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – addition
Date: November 27, 2005 at 1:58:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lee I understand that besides tripping with it constantly your main interest in ibogaine is masturbatory you like writing these long winded lists of medical whatever without knowing if any of what your writing is accurate.
Please explain why is it then that the ibogaine association in mexico which has doctors giving the ibogaine and always has, not emt’s, has killed three people so far? Not dissing them they’re honest at least on their web page they say people have died it’s a experimental medication more people may die.
My real question is does any of this make a difference at all, because it looks like the ibogaine underground which has none of these qualifications, treats people of all kinds with all kinds of backgrounds, has a better track record.
— On Sun 11/27, Lee Albert < myeboga@yahoo.co.uk > wrote: From: Lee Albert [mailto: myeboga@yahoo.co.uk] To: ibogaine@mindvox.com Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:39:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – addition Hi Nick, There are two q’s going through my mind: 1. Was Hep-C active in JW at the time or was he in remission? 2. What was his drug intake at the time? Sorry to keep pushing this but I think there is a lot of fear around the dangers of ibogaine which is preventing us from looking at the obvious. What I think is also clear is this: A knowledge of the problems that can result from withdrawals is knowledge which a provider should have. Perhaps Dr Ed would be good enough to put a link to a good book on the subject? I notice on the iboga therapy website they have a very thorough and comprehensive screening and treatment program erring on the side of caution and includes a holistic approach to the treatment of addiction. (See: www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse3558.ram) & www.ibogatherapyhouse.com) They also train their people to EMT level 1. “First Responders (EMT 1) — are trained to provide basic emergency medical care because they tend to be the first persons to arrive at the scene of an incident. Many firefighters, police officers and other emergency workers have this level of training. The EMT-Basic, also known as EMT-1, represents the first component of the emergency medical technician system. An EMT-1 is trained to care for patients at the scene of an accident and while transporting patients by ambulance to the hospital under medical direction. The EMT-1 has the emergency skills to assess a patient’s condition and manage respiratory, cardiac and trauma emergencies.” From reading the training on EMT and paramedics it seems to me that with proper equipment and a trained emergency paramedic at hand with access to a doctor on call, a client would receive a pretty secure medical environment. Here is an excerpt from a training program: “The EMT-Intermediate (EMT-2 and EMT-3) has more advanced training that allows the administration of intravenous fluids, the use of manual defibrillators to give life-saving shocks to a stopped heart, and the application of advanced airway techniques and equipment to assist patients experiencing respiratory emergencies. EMT-Paramedics (EMT-4) provide the most extensive prehospital care. In addition to carrying out the procedures already described, paramedics may administer drugs orally and intravenously, interpret electrocardiograms (EKGs), perform endotracheal intubations, and use monitors and other complex equipment.” From what i have read they are also able to interpret the kinds of heart conditions that have been flagged and to respond appropriately. I would add that it seems to me that rehydration via intravenous drip would seem a good standard if possible. I wonder is there any way Providers could recieve inexpensive EMT level 1 training? Perhaps someone from the Iboga Therapy House could tell us how they manage it and what it costs? LeePreston Peet wrote: this actually does make a lot of sense to me too.the idea that low doses that really are not large enough may leave a patient ill, in withdrwal, and not able to deal with adverse health conditions.Peace and love,Preston”Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”Richard Davenport-Hinesptpeet@nyc.rr.comEditor http://www.drugwar.comEditor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”Cont. High Times mag/.comCont. Editor http://www.disinfo.comColumnist New York WasteEtc.—– Original Message —– From: Lee AlbertTo: ibogaine@mindvox.comSent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:19 AMSubject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – additionSomething which maybe we can consider with this death is this:In administering extract or HCl a dose which is insufficient or low may precipitate adverse medical conditions due to the onset of withdrawals and clients need to be carefully supervised in the days following treatment to ensure the risk of such events has passed.LeeLee Albert wrote:Nick,Thanks mucho. The extra info you have given here is great. Many thanks.Last night thinking on this:The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9 grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good reason) per Howards:Forms & Dose Regimenswww.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.pptFor Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.According to: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1/Ibogaine.htmlThe third recorded fatality occurred in 2000, in the U.K. The patient was a 38 year old male, and suffered from hepatitis C. He was administered a total of approximately 5 grams of a total iboga extract standardised to 15% ibogaine. This was a most peculiar case, as the fatality did not occur until after the effects of ibogaine had subsided, 38 hours after initial administration. Police toxicologist Dr. John Taylor told testified that the level of ibogaine in the dead man’s blood was “well below the normal toxic dose” (Kerr, 2001). According to writer Nick Sandberg (2002), the official inquest named the primary cause of death as asphyxiation due to vomit clogging airways, with liver failure as a secondary cause.What is interesting is that this states 5grams and indeed most of the other reports I have seen also state 5 grams, so I am not sure if you are 100% on the amount?Anyway, I assume JW was being treated for Heroin or was he on Methadone maintenance at the time?In either case, the amount he took is below what would normally be given and I am left with the thought that death may have been due to insufficient iboga extract been given resulting in an onset of late withdrawls agitated in part by choking on a sandwich. This coupled with any other health issues JW may have had such as Hep C. According to Dr Ed:”Disorders appearing during “recovery,” included gastrointestinal hyperactivity/acidity (ulcers, gastro-esophageal reflux, diarrhea, etc.) and thrombosis (coronary occlusions, thrombophlebitis with pulmonary embolism/infarction, arterial thrombosis-mesenteric occlusion/cerebral artery strokes) and infection at sites previous dormant during stress (pneumonia, dental and skin abscesses, etc.) In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).”5grams of extract (based on the generally recognised 15% ibogaine content) is equivalent to 750mg of ibogaine (6=900mg), a very small amount indeed. For a 70kg male = 10,7mg/kg and 12,85 mg/kg respectively. In either case much too low for heroin interruption treatment especially if only 5grams were given.So I find myself reading the coroners conclusions as basically uninformed and highly speculative as the coroner knew nothing of the amounts of ibogaine/extract needed for addiction treatment and perhaps knew nothing about the complications of withdrawal as stated by Dr. Ed (whose contributions to this list I find “wonderful”).In this case I think withdrawals of some kind were inevitable and what this report shows about the dangers of ibogaine or the extract itself, as opposed to withdrawing from heroin, is this: nothing. Its quite possibly a big red herring. In fact one could argue that death was due to insufficient ibogaine/extract been given.LeeNick Sandberg wrote:—–Original Message—–From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]Sent: 25 November 2005 16:30To: ibogaine@mindvox.comSubject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:Nick,Can you set the record even straighter?There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.I have heard it reported as:1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the stomach .and as you state below:2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended in the toilet.Hi Lee,I’ve not heard of the first scenario. It was number 2. I knew the girl who gave the treatment and was at the inquest, both sittings. When the patient began to die paramedics were called and one said that it looked like a stomach burst. This story got propagated about for a while as it was another year until the actual inquest began. The first inquest was adjourned when I pointed out that J had not taken actual ibogaine but rather the Indra iboga extract. Dr Mash was contacted by the pathologist and she confirmed that the blood samples taken show low traces of iboga extract not pure ibogaine. The pathologist’s report put cause of death down to inhalation of vomit, if I recall correctly, but am not 100% on this. The coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” Dr Mash was keen that ibogaine itself not be blamed when J had not taken it. A year or so later t.iboga was put on a list of substances due to be controlled in the UK. However the paper never went through, there were 50 or so other herbs on it, and thus iboga is still not scheduled in the UK. (Though supply would likely be an offense).Are these two sceanarios the same person?Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?Frankly, if there had been a defense pathologist in court (one defending the iboga extract) I very much doubt that the verdict would have come out the way it did. It’s more that the coroner, Paul Knapp, if I recall, regarded it as his duty to warn the public of any dangerous new substances about (fair enough in a way) and as there was no one there to cross examine the state pathologist he did just that.Let me know if you need moreNickThanksLeeNick Sandberg wrote:Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some 38 hours after taking the drug.Nick—–Original Message—–From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23To: ibogaine@mindvox.comSubject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids” Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth. I don’t even see that idea implied here. If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation. The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PMTo: ibogaine@mindvox.comSubject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:Matt, here is a quote:Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning). Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating. That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue. Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug. You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol. Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.” Peace, Dr. EdWhile looking this up, I found this:In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.Am I right, Doc?Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!Matthew Shriver wrote:From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PMTo: ibogaine@mindvox.comSubject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach. Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest. Dr. Ed./]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[//]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html. /]=———————————————————————=[\[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]\]=———————————————————————=[/ Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html. My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web – http://www.myway.com
From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Date: November 27, 2005 at 1:12:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston,
Glad to hear you’re doing well =) I wouldn’t beat yourself up about the dilaudid… i mean you obviously have a legitimate medical reason for using it from time to time. I’d only start to worry if you find yourself using it for reasons other than that legitimate medical reason…
Anyhow, this article you posted reminded me a lot of some passages from the Illuminatus! trilogy…
“Don’t say wop,” the President shouted back. “How many times do I have to tell you? Don’t say wop or kike or any of those words anymore.” He spoke with some asperity, since he lived daily with the dread that someday the secret tapes he kept of all Oval Room transactions would be released to the public. He had long ago vowed that if that day ever came, the tapes would not be full of “(expletive deleted)” or “(characterization deleted).” He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of Russia and China.
……
In Moscow, where it was ten the next morning, the Premier called a conference and said crisply, “That character in Washington is a mental lunatic, and he means it. Get our men out of Fernando Poo right away, then find out who authorized sending them in there in the first place and transfer him to be supervisor of a hydroelectric works in Outer Mongolia.”
“We don’t have any men in Fernando Poo,” a commissar said mournfully. ‘The Americans are imagining things again.”
“Well, how the hell can we withdraw men if we don’t have them there in the first place?” the Premier demanded.
“I don’t know. We’ve got twenty-four hours to figure that out, or-” the commissar quoted an old Russian proverb which means, roughly, that when the polar bear excrement interferes with the fan belts, the machinery overheats.
“Suppose we just announce that our troops are coming out?” another commissar suggested. “They can’t say we’re lying if they don’t find any of our troops there afterward.”
“No, they never believe anything we say. They want to be shown,” the premier said thoughtfully. “We’ll have to infiltrate some troops surreptitiously and then withdraw them with a lot of fanfare and publicity. That should do it.”
“I’m afraid it won’t end the problem,” another pommissar said funereally. “Our intelligence indicates that there are Chinese troops there. Unless Peking backs down, we’re going to be caught in the middle when the bombs start flying and-” he quoted a proverb about the man in the intersection when two manure trucks collide.
“Damn,” the Premier said. “What the blue blazes do the Chinese want with Fernando Poo?”
He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on schizophrenia; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of America and China.
…..
“We’ll just get our troops out of Fernando Poo,” the Chairman of the Chinese Communist party said on April 1. “A place that size isn’t worth world war.”
“But we don’t have any troops there,” an aide told him, “it’s the Russians who do.”
“Oh?” the Chairman quoted a proverb to the effect that there was urine in the rosewater. “I wonder what the hell the Russians want with Fernando Poo?” he added thoughtfully.
He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of America and Russia.
HI all and happy Sunday morning.
I ran into a very old friend and fellow ibogaine list member, who noted more than once how happy he was to see me doing (or looking, I wasn’t always sure) so well compared to how I have at time been doing, which was a nice thing to hear (more than once, so it coulda also been the alcohol he was drinking- still, I prefer to put it down to his honest observations), as it only validate my decision and the carrying out of said decision.
Which btw, I have to say I’m doing remarkably well with (KNOCK LOUDLY UPON WOOD, THREE TIMES- personal twist on superstious bologna, so please humor me) my severe, strict adherance to my own personal teeny level of medical pain relief, trying to see if I can manage to do it on my own, but I have found there have been more than once when I simply had to take a couple dilaudid (orally) to help nail the swelling, heaving, growing pain. Otherwise, I’m for the moment doing well and am trying to give myself credit for doing so. I think it’s going to take a little while for it to become obvious to certain other sthat I mean what I’ve said and really am doing this, among other behavioral and habit changes that have nothing to do with drugs. If I get the time to show it instead of saying it (which I’m not doing except here in print, which is why I noted I’m trying to give myself credit because I can’t do it anywhere else- these are what I use as my groups instead of classic -A type grounps, as I told my friend last night) no problem I believe.
Anyway, on with the article about the President using hard drugs both legal and non.
Ohhhhh, if only this story is true, it’s a beaut. But….
Personally I’m never sure just how to take Tom Flocco’s information and reporting,
as he seems to pretty far in accusatory language but doesn’t seem to always
source his info, often who are “un-named,” or “anonymous,”  which makes it difficult to follow up on the story, (although out of the rest of the articles total reliance on unnamed sources all over the place, the name of the doctor supposedly writing the prescriptions for Ritilan and Prozac for Bush is named, a Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician, so feel free to follow this up if you have the time) such as this juicy but gossipy
piece on George W. Bush not only still drinking, but taking Prozac as well as
doing cocaine, these days as President of the United States, not years ago as
a frat boy or US Navy pilot. If this story is true that is.
http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/SecretServIntelSay.htm
Tom Flocco.com
http://tomflocco.com/
Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Date: Thursday, November 17
Topic: —
“It is not for kings, O Lemuel-not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer, lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.” Proverbs 31: 4-5
Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, Prozac, alcohol
Federal agents question out-of-control White House operating “under the influence” while continuing historical pattern of untested drug usage at highest levels places presidents above the law, jeopardizing the safety of all Americans
by Tom Flocco
Washington-November 17, 2005-TomFlocco.com-Secret Service members attached to White House domestic security, FBI and CIA agents, and written national security field reports all confirm that President Bush has been using drugs which could be affecting his performance as the nation’s war-time commander-in-chief.
Multiple federal agents having direct knowledge and access to Bush’s medical records say the President has switched from using Ritalin to taking Prozac while also succumbing to periodic alcoholic binges which have led to tirades and explosive personal conduct among White House aides, absent required random drug testing of all public employees and elected officials.
Federal law enforcement agents have at different times witnessed President Bush doing lines of cocaine in the early morning hours at the White House and drinking straight shots of whiskey in the evening hours on other occasions, according to U.S. intelligence sources who confirm multiple stories appearing in the tabloid press which say the First Lady is assigned to “keep an eye on him.”
Bush’s alleged conduct raises serious questions as to what effect the chemicals are having on his oval office decision-making, and why Democrats and Republicans facing coming voter backlash-while undoubtedly having heard the whispers-are failing to call for the release of Bush’s medical records for bipartisan congressional scrutiny.
Legislators have also failed to ask Bush to submit to drug-testing when they required President Clinton to submit to similar tests to confirm a match of his DNA with spots found on Monica Lewinsky’s blue dress-a matter of far less consequence to U.S. national security than the effects of Mr. Bush’s alleged ongoing chemical dependency.
Having observed the President smirk and laugh when discussing the war or other serious matters of state at press conferences, the White House press corps has thus far refused to muster the courage to ask whether Bush will have himself tested for drugs or whether he considers himself above the law compared to all other federal employees.
U.S. intelligence sources having direct contact with White House domestic security told TomFlocco.com that multiple federal agents would be willing to testify before a grand jury if subpoenaed regarding what they have seen and heard pertaining to Mr. Bush’s drug and alcohol usage.
Secret Service and intelligence officials are reportedly concerned about public safety while Mr. Bush has access to nuclear weapons without being subject to random drug testing to determine how the addictions are affecting his ability to govern.
Bush’s doses of Ritalin and Prozac are reportedly administered by Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician; and medical journals say they can impair the President’s mental faculties and decrease both his physical capabilities and his ability to respond to a crisis.
Medical reports also say that mixing cocaine with alcohol produces a substance in the blood called “cocaethylene” which can be more toxic to the body than the cocaine itself.
Dr. Justin Frank, a Washington D.C. psychiatrist and author of Bush On The Couch-Inside The Mind Of The President, told The National Enquirer: “I do think that Bush is drinking again. Alcoholics who are not in any program, like the President, have a hard time when stress gets to be great.”
snip-
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Date: November 27, 2005 at 9:09:46 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
HI all and happy Sunday morning.
I ran into a very old friend and fellow ibogaine list member, who noted more than once how happy he was to see me doing (or looking, I wasn’t always sure) so well compared to how I have at time been doing, which was a nice thing to hear (more than once, so it coulda also been the alcohol he was drinking- still, I prefer to put it down to his honest observations), as it only validate my decision and the carrying out of said decision.
Which btw, I have to say I’m doing remarkably well with (KNOCK LOUDLY UPON WOOD, THREE TIMES- personal twist on superstious bologna, so please humor me) my severe, strict adherance to my own personal teeny level of medical pain relief, trying to see if I can manage to do it on my own, but I have found there have been more than once when I simply had to take a couple dilaudid (orally) to help nail the swelling, heaving, growing pain. Otherwise, I’m for the moment doing well and am trying to give myself credit for doing so. I think it’s going to take a little while for it to become obvious to certain other sthat I mean what I’ve said and really am doing this, among other behavioral and habit changes that have nothing to do with drugs. If I get the time to show it instead of saying it (which I’m not doing except here in print, which is why I noted I’m trying to give myself credit because I can’t do it anywhere else- these are what I use as my groups instead of classic -A type grounps, as I told my friend last night) no problem I believe.
Anyway, on with the article about the President using hard drugs both legal and non.
Ohhhhh, if only this story is true, it’s a beaut. But….
Personally I’m never sure just how to take Tom Flocco’s information and reporting,
as he seems to pretty far in accusatory language but doesn’t seem to always
source his info, often who are “un-named,” or “anonymous,”  which makes it difficult to follow up on the story, (although out of the rest of the articles total reliance on unnamed sources all over the place, the name of the doctor supposedly writing the prescriptions for Ritilan and Prozac for Bush is named, a Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician, so feel free to follow this up if you have the time) such as this juicy but gossipy
piece on George W. Bush not only still drinking, but taking Prozac as well as
doing cocaine, these days as President of the United States, not years ago as
a frat boy or US Navy pilot. If this story is true that is.
http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/SecretServIntelSay.htm
Tom Flocco.com
http://tomflocco.com/
Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, prozac, alcohol
Date: Thursday, November 17
Topic: —
“It is not for kings, O Lemuel-not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer, lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.” Proverbs 31: 4-5
Secret Service, U.S. intel say Bush uses cocaine, Prozac, alcohol
Federal agents question out-of-control White House operating “under the influence” while continuing historical pattern of untested drug usage at highest levels places presidents above the law, jeopardizing the safety of all Americans
by Tom Flocco
Washington-November 17, 2005-TomFlocco.com-Secret Service members attached to White House domestic security, FBI and CIA agents, and written national security field reports all confirm that President Bush has been using drugs which could be affecting his performance as the nation’s war-time commander-in-chief.
Multiple federal agents having direct knowledge and access to Bush’s medical records say the President has switched from using Ritalin to taking Prozac while also succumbing to periodic alcoholic binges which have led to tirades and explosive personal conduct among White House aides, absent required random drug testing of all public employees and elected officials.
Federal law enforcement agents have at different times witnessed President Bush doing lines of cocaine in the early morning hours at the White House and drinking straight shots of whiskey in the evening hours on other occasions, according to U.S. intelligence sources who confirm multiple stories appearing in the tabloid press which say the First Lady is assigned to “keep an eye on him.”
Bush’s alleged conduct raises serious questions as to what effect the chemicals are having on his oval office decision-making, and why Democrats and Republicans facing coming voter backlash-while undoubtedly having heard the whispers-are failing to call for the release of Bush’s medical records for bipartisan congressional scrutiny.
Legislators have also failed to ask Bush to submit to drug-testing when they required President Clinton to submit to similar tests to confirm a match of his DNA with spots found on Monica Lewinsky’s blue dress-a matter of far less consequence to U.S. national security than the effects of Mr. Bush’s alleged ongoing chemical dependency.
Having observed the President smirk and laugh when discussing the war or other serious matters of state at press conferences, the White House press corps has thus far refused to muster the courage to ask whether Bush will have himself tested for drugs or whether he considers himself above the law compared to all other federal employees.
U.S. intelligence sources having direct contact with White House domestic security told TomFlocco.com that multiple federal agents would be willing to testify before a grand jury if subpoenaed regarding what they have seen and heard pertaining to Mr. Bush’s drug and alcohol usage.
Secret Service and intelligence officials are reportedly concerned about public safety while Mr. Bush has access to nuclear weapons without being subject to random drug testing to determine how the addictions are affecting his ability to govern.
Bush’s doses of Ritalin and Prozac are reportedly administered by Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician; and medical journals say they can impair the President’s mental faculties and decrease both his physical capabilities and his ability to respond to a crisis.
Medical reports also say that mixing cocaine with alcohol produces a substance in the blood called “cocaethylene” which can be more toxic to the body than the cocaine itself.
Dr. Justin Frank, a Washington D.C. psychiatrist and author of Bush On The Couch-Inside The Mind Of The President, told The National Enquirer: “I do think that Bush is drinking again. Alcoholics who are not in any program, like the President, have a hard time when stress gets to be great.”
snip-
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Query?
Date: November 27, 2005 at 9:03:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Come again!?  Dr. Ed
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] urgent message from the bwiti gang
Date: November 27, 2005 at 8:11:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello beauitfull people
i just came back from anothr journey to the bwitilend…..what  a trip!!!!!!!…..
check this out
In the beginigng i was already in a vision but thinking i was going about my bussiness in normal time and i kept complaininng how the ibogaine isnt working so i said to someone standing beside me well i just close my eyes to see if anything began only to realize im opining my eyes in real time and that the visions were right in front of me
and the bwitit did give me this message to pass along so feel free to hand it out to anyone u wish
UNITY
and they also said that they have over 1kg of iboga hcl….all i could say is why… hcl?
crazy bwitist
with love
matt
Send junk mail straight into your Recycle Bin with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – addition
Date: November 27, 2005 at 7:39:40 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Nick,
There are two q’s going through my mind:
1. Was Hep-C active in JW at the time or was he in remission?
2. What was his drug intake at the time?
Sorry to keep pushing this but I think there is a lot of fear around the dangers of ibogaine which is preventing us from looking at the obvious.
What I think is also clear is this: A knowledge of the problems that can result from withdrawals is knowledge which a provider should have. Perhaps Dr Ed would be good enough to put a link to a good book on the subject?
I notice on the iboga therapy website they have a very thorough and comprehensive screening and treatment program erring on the side of caution and includes a holistic approach to the treatment of addiction.
(See: www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse3558.ram) &
www.ibogatherapyhouse.com)
They also train their people to EMT level 1.
“First Responders (EMT 1) — are trained to provide basic emergency medical care because they tend to be the first persons to arrive at the scene of an incident. Many firefighters, police officers and other emergency workers have this level of training. The EMT-Basic, also known as EMT-1, represents the first component of the emergency medical technician system. An EMT-1 is trained to care for patients at the scene of an accident and while transporting patients by ambulance to the hospital under medical direction. The EMT-1 has the emergency skills to assess a patient’s condition and manage respiratory, cardiac and trauma emergencies.”
From reading the training on EMT and paramedics it seems to me that with proper equipment and a trained emergency paramedic at hand with access to a doctor on call, a client would receive a pretty secure medical environment.
Here is an excerpt from a training program:
“The EMT-Intermediate (EMT-2 and EMT-3) has more advanced training that allows the administration of intravenous fluids, the use of manual defibrillators to give life-saving shocks to a stopped heart, and the application of advanced airway techniques and equipment to assist patients experiencing respiratory emergencies. EMT-Paramedics (EMT-4) provide the most extensive prehospital care. In addition to carrying out the procedures already described, paramedics may administer drugs orally and intravenously, interpret electrocardiograms (EKGs), perform endotracheal intubations, and use monitors and other complex equipment.”
From what i have read they are also able to interpret the kinds of heart conditions that have been flagged and to respond appropriately.
I would add that it seems to me that rehydration via intravenous drip would seem a good standard if possible.
I wonder is there any way Providers could recieve inexpensive EMT level 1 training? Perhaps someone from the Iboga Therapy House could tell us how they manage it and what it costs?
Lee
Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
this actually does make a lot of sense to me too.
the idea that low doses that really are not large enough may leave a patient
ill, in withdrwal, and not able to deal with adverse health conditions.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative
Theory – addition
Something which maybe we can consider with this death is this:
In administering extract or HCl a dose which is insufficient or low may
precipitate adverse medical conditions due to the onset of withdrawals and
clients need to be carefully supervised in the days following treatment to
ensure the risk of such events has passed.
Lee
Lee Albert wrote:
Nick,
Thanks mucho. The extra info you have given here is great. Many thanks.
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9
grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good
reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
According to: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1/Ibogaine.html
The third recorded fatality occurred in 2000, in the U.K. The patient was a
38 year old male, and suffered from hepatitis C. He was administered a total
of approximately 5 grams of a total iboga extract standardised to 15%
ibogaine. This was a most peculiar case, as the fatality did not occur until
after the effects of ibogaine had subsided, 38 hours after initial
administration. Police toxicologist Dr. John Taylor told testified that the
level of ibogaine in the dead man’s blood was “well below the normal toxic
dose” (Kerr, 2001). According to writer Nick Sandberg (2002), the official
inquest named the primary cause of death as asphyxiation due to vomit
clogging airways, with liver failure as a secondary cause.
What is interesting is that this states 5grams and indeed most of the other
reports I have seen also state 5 grams, so I am not sure if you are 100% on
the amount?
Anyway, I assume JW was being treated for Heroin or was he on Methadone
maintenance at the time?
In either case, the amount he took is below what would normally be given and
I am left with the thought that death may have been due to insufficient
iboga extract been given resulting in an onset of late withdrawls agitated
in part by choking on a sandwich. This coupled with any other health issues
JW may have had such as Hep C. According to Dr Ed:
“Disorders appearing during “recovery,” included gastrointestinal
hyperactivity/acidity (ulcers, gastro-esophageal reflux, diarrhea, etc.) and
thrombosis (coronary occlusions, thrombophlebitis with pulmonary
embolism/infarction, arterial thrombosis-mesenteric occlusion/cerebral
artery strokes) and infection at sites previous dormant during stress
(pneumonia, dental and skin abscesses, etc.) In addition, gastro-esophageal
reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the
lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g.
Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).”
5grams of extract (based on the generally recognised 15% ibogaine content)
is equivalent to 750mg of ibogaine (6=900mg), a very small amount indeed.
For a 70kg male = 10,7mg/kg and 12,85 mg/kg respectively. In either case
much too low for heroin interruption treatment especially if only 5grams
were given.
So I find myself reading the coroners conclusions as basically uninformed
and highly speculative as the coroner knew nothing of the amounts of
ibogaine/extract needed for addiction treatment and perhaps knew nothing
about the complications of withdrawal as stated by Dr. Ed (whose
contributions to this list I find “wonderful”).
In this case I think withdrawals of some kind were inevitable and what this
report shows about the dangers of ibogaine or the extract itself, as opposed
to withdrawing from heroin, is this: nothing. Its quite possibly a big red
herring. In fact one could argue that death was due to insufficient
ibogaine/extract been given.
Lee
Nick Sandberg wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 25 November 2005 16:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Nick,
Can you set the record even straighter?
There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.
I have heard it reported as:
1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the
stomach .
and as you state below:
2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended
in the toilet.
Hi Lee,
I’ve not heard of the first scenario. It was number 2. I knew the girl who
gave the treatment and was at the inquest, both sittings. When the patient
began to die paramedics were called and one said that it looked like a
stomach burst. This story got propagated about for a while as it was another
year until the actual inquest began. The first inquest was adjourned when I
pointed out that J had not taken actual ibogaine but rather the Indra iboga
extract. Dr Mash was contacted by the pathologist and she confirmed that the
blood samples taken show low traces of iboga extract not pure ibogaine. The
pathologist’s report put cause of death down to inhalation of vomit, if I
recall correctly, but am not 100% on this. The coroner recorded “fatal
reaction to t.iboga extract.” Dr Mash was keen that ibogaine itself not be
blamed when J had not taken it. A year or so later t.iboga was put on a list
of substances due to be controlled in the UK. However the paper never went
through, there were 50 or so other herbs on it, and thus iboga is still not
scheduled in the UK. (Though supply would likely be an offense).
Are these two sceanarios the same person?
Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling
ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?
Frankly, if there had been a defense pathologist in court (one defending the
iboga extract) I very much doubt that the verdict would have come out the
way it did. It’s more that the coroner, Paul Knapp, if I recall, regarded it
as his duty to warn the public of any dangerous new substances about (fair
enough in a way) and as there was no one there to cross examine the state
pathologist he did just that.
Let me know if you need more
Nick
Thanks
Lee
Nick Sandberg wrote:
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been
attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in
London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long
term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga
extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some
38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine
deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”
Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone
else’s mouth. I don’t even see that idea implied here. If we are talking
about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can
be as bad as disinformation. The implication is that death by aspiration
could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine
use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN
AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning). Vomiting is certainly
a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of
food from recent eating. That is why when someone suffers a convulsive
seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction
of the air-way by the tongue. Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures,
sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a
dependency drug. You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much”
benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for
alcohol. Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and
especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present
thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”
Peace, Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of
acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and
sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in
the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux.
Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of
vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach
just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that
sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they
will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a
lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may
come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal
chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who
is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to
vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux
inhalation?
I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise
the acid and food would stay in the stomach. Reflux happens easier during
reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured
by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest. Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “pascall roland” <pascal-roland@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] would ibogaine help?
Date: November 27, 2005 at 6:30:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
referring to HSLotsof’s mail containing a Houston Chronicle artice abt. J.Gibson, I wonder what’s the link between the mail’s title ..would ibogaine help? and this article?
Or does it mean Ibogaine could help J.Gibson?
Thanks for clarification,
b.r.
P.R.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] would ibogaine help?
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:14:07 EST
Katrina Hero Booked on Heroin Charge
The Houston Chronicle
Jabar Gibson’s heroic actions in the wake of Hurricane Katrina made him a
nationwide celebrity.
NEW ORLEANS (Nov. 26) – A man hailed by some as a hero for commandeering a
school bus the day after Hurricane Katrina to take 60 stranded residents to
safety in Houston has been arrested on drug charges where his bus journey began:
the Fischer public housing complex.
Jabar Gibson, 20, who garnered a movie deal and national attention as the
renegade bus driver, was booked Friday with possession with intent to distribute
heroin after police stopped his rental car for allegedly driving erratically,
New Orleans police said.
Gibson and another man, Gary Burnett, were traveling near the public housing
complex about 12:30 p.m. when they veered slightly and nearly struck the
police cruiser of officers Michael Pierce and Cory McKain, Pierce said.
The officers pursued the men’s car. the suspects stopped it and ran toward
the apartment complex, tossing what police said were drugs on the ground. They
were quickly caught.
Gibson became a national figure when he stole an Orleans Parish School bus
to rescue himself and his neighbors the day after Katrina struck. He claimed he
had never operated a bus, but he and his passengers arrived safely at the
Astrodome in Houston ahead of any other evacuee bus.
Two weeks before the storm, on Aug. 18, authorities said Gibson led police
on a highspeed chase that ended with a wreck and left four officers injured. He
was charged with possession of stolen property and resisting arrest by
flight.
Gibson’s police record also includes charges of aggravated assault, crack
possession with intent to distribute and possession of a stolen car.
On Friday, he faced charges of reckless driving and driving without a seat
belt or a driver’s license in addition to the drug charge.
Asked to describe what happened, Gibson shook his head and said nothing.
Despite his criminal past, some have hailed Gibson’s actions immediately
after Katrina as heroic.
After the hurricane hit, when the levees were breached and New Orleans began
to fill with water, Algiers residents began to panic.
Gibson said he and three friends siphoned a plastic jug full of fuel and
took a truck to an Algiers school bus barn. He drove one bus to Fischer and
collected about 60 people, including a week-old infant and a pregnant mother, and
shepherded them to Texas.
Last month, Gibson told a reporter, “I was in the wrong place at the wrong
time, a lot of times. But that’s all behind me now. I feel like the Lord, all
the problems I was going through, he just turned it around for me.”
Gibson’s passenger in the car, Burnett, 20, of Algiers, was booked Friday
with possession with intent to distribute heroin and crack cocaine.
11/26/05 15:04 EST
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it’s FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] would ibogaine help?
Date: November 27, 2005 at 1:55:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/27/2005 12:14:36 AM Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
Katrina Hero Booked on Heroin Charge
The Houston Chronicle
Jabar Gibson’s heroic actions in the wake of Hurricane Katrina made him a nationwide celebrity.
NEW ORLEANS (Nov. 26) – A man hailed by some as a hero for commandeering a school bus the day after Hurricane Katrina to take 60 stranded residents to safety in Houston has been arrested on drug charges where his bus journey began: the Fischer public housing complex.
Jabar Gibson, 20, who garnered a movie deal and national attention as the renegade bus driver, was booked Friday with possession with intent to distribute heroin after police stopped his rental car for allegedly driving erratically, New Orleans police said.
Gibson and another man, Gary Burnett, were traveling near the public housing complex about 12:30 p.m. when they veered slightly and nearly struck the police cruiser of officers Michael Pierce and Cory McKain, Pierce said.
The officers pursued the men’s car. the suspects stopped it and ran toward the apartment complex, tossing what police said were drugs on the ground. They were quickly caught.
Gibson became a national figure when he stole an Orleans Parish School bus to rescue himself and his neighbors the day after Katrina struck. He claimed he had never operated a bus, but he and his passengers arrived safely at the Astrodome in Houston ahead of any other evacuee bus.
Two weeks before the storm, on Aug. 18, authorities said Gibson led police on a highspeed chase that ended with a wreck and left four officers injured. He was charged with possession of stolen property and resisting arrest by flight.
Gibson’s police record also includes charges of aggravated assault, crack possession with intent to distribute and possession of a stolen car.
On Friday, he faced charges of reckless driving and driving without a seat belt or a driver’s license in addition to the drug charge.
Asked to describe what happened, Gibson shook his head and said nothing.
Despite his criminal past, some have hailed Gibson’s actions immediately after Katrina as heroic.
After the hurricane hit, when the levees were breached and New Orleans began to fill with water, Algiers residents began to panic.
Gibson said he and three friends siphoned a plastic jug full of fuel and took a truck to an Algiers school bus barn. He drove one bus to Fischer and collected about 60 people, including a week-old infant and a pregnant mother, and shepherded them to Texas.
Last month, Gibson told a reporter, “I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, a lot of times. But that’s all behind me now. I feel like the Lord, all the problems I was going through, he just turned it around for me.”
Gibson’s passenger in the car, Burnett, 20, of Algiers, was booked Friday with possession with intent to distribute heroin and crack cocaine.
11/26/05 15:04 EST
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press.
I thought the exact same thing when I read this mans story!
Callie
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] new ibogaine article
Date: November 27, 2005 at 1:54:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/26/2005 11:58:05 PM Central Standard Time, HSLotsof@aol.com writes:
http://www.northernexpress.com/editorial/features.asp?id=1533
great! thanks Howard!
Callie
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] would ibogaine help?
Date: November 27, 2005 at 1:14:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Katrina Hero Booked on Heroin Charge
The Houston Chronicle
Jabar Gibson’s heroic actions in the wake of Hurricane Katrina made him a nationwide celebrity.
NEW ORLEANS (Nov. 26) – A man hailed by some as a hero for commandeering a school bus the day after Hurricane Katrina to take 60 stranded residents to safety in Houston has been arrested on drug charges where his bus journey began: the Fischer public housing complex.
Jabar Gibson, 20, who garnered a movie deal and national attention as the renegade bus driver, was booked Friday with possession with intent to distribute heroin after police stopped his rental car for allegedly driving erratically, New Orleans police said.
Gibson and another man, Gary Burnett, were traveling near the public housing complex about 12:30 p.m. when they veered slightly and nearly struck the police cruiser of officers Michael Pierce and Cory McKain, Pierce said.
The officers pursued the men’s car. the suspects stopped it and ran toward the apartment complex, tossing what police said were drugs on the ground. They were quickly caught.
Gibson became a national figure when he stole an Orleans Parish School bus to rescue himself and his neighbors the day after Katrina struck. He claimed he had never operated a bus, but he and his passengers arrived safely at the Astrodome in Houston ahead of any other evacuee bus.
Two weeks before the storm, on Aug. 18, authorities said Gibson led police on a highspeed chase that ended with a wreck and left four officers injured. He was charged with possession of stolen property and resisting arrest by flight.
Gibson’s police record also includes charges of aggravated assault, crack possession with intent to distribute and possession of a stolen car.
On Friday, he faced charges of reckless driving and driving without a seat belt or a driver’s license in addition to the drug charge.
Asked to describe what happened, Gibson shook his head and said nothing.
Despite his criminal past, some have hailed Gibson’s actions immediately after Katrina as heroic.
After the hurricane hit, when the levees were breached and New Orleans began to fill with water, Algiers residents began to panic.
Gibson said he and three friends siphoned a plastic jug full of fuel and took a truck to an Algiers school bus barn. He drove one bus to Fischer and collected about 60 people, including a week-old infant and a pregnant mother, and shepherded them to Texas.
Last month, Gibson told a reporter, “I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, a lot of times. But that’s all behind me now. I feel like the Lord, all the problems I was going through, he just turned it around for me.”
Gibson’s passenger in the car, Burnett, 20, of Algiers, was booked Friday with possession with intent to distribute heroin and crack cocaine.
11/26/05 15:04 EST
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] new ibogaine article
Date: November 27, 2005 at 12:57:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://www.northernexpress.com/editorial/features.asp?id=1533
From: Beatrice Blue <beatriceblue@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 10:22:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Everything in purple hasn’t been said before.
1. B-52s
2. Led Zeppelin
3. Gorillaz
4. Pet Shop Boys
5. Smashing Pumpkins
6. Sex Pistols
7. Blur
8. Scissor Sisters
9. Beach Boys
10. Ratt
11. The Nails
12. Cowboy Junkies
13. Alice In Chains
14. The Eagles
15. Black Flag
16. White Zombie
17. The Doors
18. The Rolling Stones
19. Queen
20. The Cars
21. Iron Maiden
22. Whitesnake
23. Blind Melon
24. Radiohead
25. Red Hot Chili Peppers
26. 50 Cent
27. Garbage
28. Dinosaur, Jr.
29. The Eels
30. The Pixies
31. U2
32. The Postal Service
33. Spoon
34. Main
35. Twisted Sister
36. Black Crowes
37. The Apes ?
38. The Monkeys
39. Lemonheads
40. Matchbox 20
41. The Police
42. The White Stripes
43. Television
44. Prince
45. Eminem
46. The Leaves
47. Ice Cube
48. Korn
49. Diamond
50. Jewel
51. The Vines
52. Dead Kennedys
53. Cake
54. Bubble
55. Yello?
56. Jesus & Mary Chain?
57. The Byrds
58. Hole
59. Deep Purple?
60. The Proclaimers?
61. Curve
62. Phish?
63. Blues Brothers?
64. Nine Inch Nails?
65. The Cranberries?
66. Crowded House?
67. The Windows
68. Jem?
69. The Killers?
70. Madonna?
On 11/26/05 9:48 AM, “Luke Christoffersen” <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is quite fun!
>
>
> /]=———————————————————————=[\
> [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
> \]=———————————————————————=[/
>
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 5:19:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/26/2005 3:31:31 PM Central Standard Time, jfreed1@umbc.edu writes:
could anyone figure out what the smiling oranges were? they must be
something…ehe
lemonheads
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 5:18:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The Monkeys
Sex Pistols
Queen
Blues Brothers(?)
Lemonheads
From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 4:31:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
wow, that’s pretty good =)
the only other ones i got were:
the eels
U2
the pixies
spoon
the apes
gorillaz
the postal service
blur
main
twisted sister
the black crows
and maybe queen
could anyone figure out what the smiling oranges were? they must be something…ehe
Sex pistols
Cowboy junkies
Black flag
White zombie
Rolling Stones
The Doors (maybe?)
The Cars (maybe?)
Iron Maiden
Rat
White Snake
Smashing Pumpkins
Scissor Sisters
Matchbox 20
Blind Melon
Alice In Chains
B52’s
Radiohead
Red Hot Chili Peppers
50 cent
Garbage
The Eagles
Led Zepplin (maybe?)
Dinosaur Jr
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: World Communit Grid – HIV
Date: November 26, 2005 at 4:29:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Not telling anyone what to do or that their paranoia isn’t founded, but
there are a few long running distributed computing projects going, like
SETI for instance.
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
Like with anything else on the internet it is always possible that
malicious uses and backdoors can and probably will be found, but saying
distributed computing projects are a conspiracy to email spam is a
little off base.
You don’t need all that to send spam, all you need are hundreds of
millions of people running Windows 😉
If you don’t feel comfortable with the projects, then don’t join them.
.:vector:.
— darkmattersfo@comcast.net wrote:
I don’t know what kind of computer Don has, or what the operating
system, ant-virus software or firewall he is using, but my anti-virus
application and fire wall are up and running just fine.
I do computer support for a living and am very much aware of the
damage unknown applications can cause so I am generally very careful
with this sort of thing. I am not writing this to convince Don to run
the applet. It would be a waste of time.
I’ve participated in several of these distributed projects with no
ill affects.
These are not meant to be arguments to convince anyone to do
something on their computer they don’t feel comfortable doing. I’m
not going to get into a flame war with anyone on this either.
On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 17:24:54 -0800 Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
wrote:
Hiya Slow,
Thanks for responding, you seem to have taken a personal interest
in
WHATEVER I rant about, thank you and I appreciate it.
This is from the “Folding at Home” website:
“HOW ARE THESE NEW ADVANCES POSSIBLE?
In order to make breakthroughs using distributed computing, new
methods are critical. Distributed computing is an unusual way to
perform large-scale calculations. While it gives computer
resources
much greater than a typical supercomputer (e.g. the almost 200,000
actively processing CPUs in FAH vs. 5,000 in a typical
supercomputer), these processors are connected by the Internet,
not
the high speed, low latency interconnects found in supercomputers.
Thus, we must develop new methods to use FAH’s unusual
computational
paradigm and capabilities. Moreover, these methods must be tested.
Much of our work in the first years of FAH has been to develop
and
test these methods on model systems: small proteins which can be
easily studied experimentally. With these experimental
comparisons,
we can test and validate our methods, as well as find out their
limitations (which is critical for improving our methods).
To date, FAH has been very successful, with over 25 published
works
in the first five years directly stemming from FAH calculations
(and
lots more on the way). We will continue to work on all fronts: new
scientific cores, new server side algorithms, new models for
proteins, and new questions related to testing our methods and
applications to disease and other biomedical questions.”.
This is what I don’t understand, 200k computers mystically linked
over the Internet with basically a Trojan installed, can figure
out
more than a 5 THOUSAND processor Supercomputer.
If everyone had free access to the 5,000 node supercomputer, maybe
groups like this wouldn’t need to look for spare cycles. The
network connections are no more “mystical” than what you are using
to read your mail. For simple compute power, 200k/5k = 40, so if
each contributor on average provided 1/40th of the power of a
supercomputer node, then the two are equivalent for problems that
don’t need lots of bandwidth.
All antivirus software must be disabled,
Is this true? It sounds implausible that this would be an absolute
requirement.
as well a tremendous I/O firewall breach must be maintained.
That would be the case if you were running a server open to the
world. However I expect that you would be running a client that
would connect to their server, like your web browser is connected
to any site on the web. You do need to have enough trust that they
aren’t installing trojans like a Sony music CD would
(http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Sony-BMG/), or a porn site.
And the upside? Curing cancer, AIDS, alzheimers,
kinda Holy Grail type of stuff, but MY computer is my life, and to
compromise that by basically leaving gaping holes in my defense
system seems a little, well, uh, being polite here, less than an
educated move.
It sounds like you don’t know enough to make an informed decision
on this sort of thing, so best not to take a chance. The
interesting thing is how fantasize about it.
And this, “these processors are connected by the Internet, not
the high speed, low latency interconnects found in
supercomputers.”
Last I checked, ANY connection INSIDE of a computer kinda beat the
hell
out of any Internet connection, and any attempt to lead me not to
think so raises numerous red flags.
There is a tradeoff between speed and price. But more to your point
here, some problems lend themselves to slow connections, others
pretty much require fast ones. If a single compute node can do a
lot of work without needing updates, the problem is perfect for
this kind of cheap supercomputing.
I don’t think anyone is trying to claim the net is faster than a
parallel computer’s internal net. If you’re interested in getting
educated on this sort of thing, maybe a search on supercomputing
clusters would do the trick.
I just really doubt that the cure for cancer is gonna be figured
out by MY computer, in it’s spare time, with one processor, faster
or
even assisting a 5,000 processor supercomputer with the Internet
bottleneck in place. I wish it were so, common sense interdicts.
The odds of a huge boon to humanity from any project are slight,
plus you would be one of many. But I think it isn’t common sense
that interdicts, more likely a part of you that censors so well
that you need ibogaine to uncover why it is so afraid. There is
possibly something good in sharing a mystical communion with
thousands of people over doing good deeds, but trust is required,
and for this one needs to be able to trust one’s judgement.. and it
is hard to recover from the trauma of a mistake.
One tangible result from such a group effort was to show that some
kind of cryptographic key was no longer secure, resulting in
earlier adoption of more secure keys.
Bee
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:28:16 -0800 Don Patton   wrote:
Not to be crass, but I have always been skeptical about these.
Any
mathematical equation only needs one computer, and cannot harness
data from drones.
Why do you think this is the case? Virtually all powerful
computers
nowadays work in exactly this manner.
What they CAN do is spam to the n’th degree.
This is certainly true. It would be big news if it actually
happened with one of the science projects.
I decline. darkmattersfo@comcast.net wrote:
There is a “World Community Grid” reseach project that uses
personal pc’s all over the world to perform computational
research
to design new anti-HIV drugs based on molecular structure.
A small applet is loaded onto your PC and runs in the back
ground. As results are produced they are loaded back up to a
research mainframe. By using this type of distributed computing
researchers are able to process large amounts of data in a much
shorter time. This type of computing has been around and has
been/is
being used to: Solve complex mathematical problems, seach  for
extra-terrestrial live, smallpox research, etc.
There are currently over 100,000 people participating in this
particular project all over the world. The goal is to get 500,000
involved.
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/projects_showcase/viewFaahResea
r
ch.do
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Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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From: darkmattersfo@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: World Communit Grid – HIV
Date: November 26, 2005 at 3:55:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <slowone@hush.ai>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I don’t know what kind of computer Don has, or what the operating system, ant-virus software or firewall he is using, but my anti-virus application and fire wall are up and running just fine.
I do computer support for a living and am very much aware of the damage unknown applications can cause so I am generally very careful with this sort of thing. I am not writing this to convince Don to run the applet. It would be a waste of time.
I’ve participated in several of these distributed projects with no ill affects.
These are not meant to be arguments to convince anyone to do something on their computer they don’t feel comfortable doing. I’m not going to get into a flame war with anyone on this either.
On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 17:24:54 -0800 Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
wrote:
Hiya Slow,
Thanks for responding, you seem to have taken a personal interest
in
WHATEVER I rant about, thank you and I appreciate it.
This is from the “Folding at Home” website:
“HOW ARE THESE NEW ADVANCES POSSIBLE?
In order to make breakthroughs using distributed computing, new
methods are critical. Distributed computing is an unusual way to
perform large-scale calculations. While it gives computer
resources
much greater than a typical supercomputer (e.g. the almost 200,000
actively processing CPUs in FAH vs. 5,000 in a typical
supercomputer), these processors are connected by the Internet,
not
the high speed, low latency interconnects found in supercomputers.
Thus, we must develop new methods to use FAH’s unusual
computational
paradigm and capabilities. Moreover, these methods must be tested.
Much of our work in the first years of FAH has been to develop
and
test these methods on model systems: small proteins which can be
easily studied experimentally. With these experimental
comparisons,
we can test and validate our methods, as well as find out their
limitations (which is critical for improving our methods).
To date, FAH has been very successful, with over 25 published
works
in the first five years directly stemming from FAH calculations
(and
lots more on the way). We will continue to work on all fronts: new
scientific cores, new server side algorithms, new models for
proteins, and new questions related to testing our methods and
applications to disease and other biomedical questions.”.
This is what I don’t understand, 200k computers mystically linked
over the Internet with basically a Trojan installed, can figure
out
more than a 5 THOUSAND processor Supercomputer.
If everyone had free access to the 5,000 node supercomputer, maybe
groups like this wouldn’t need to look for spare cycles. The
network connections are no more “mystical” than what you are using
to read your mail. For simple compute power, 200k/5k = 40, so if
each contributor on average provided 1/40th of the power of a
supercomputer node, then the two are equivalent for problems that
don’t need lots of bandwidth.
All antivirus software must be disabled,
Is this true? It sounds implausible that this would be an absolute
requirement.
as well a tremendous I/O firewall breach must be maintained.
That would be the case if you were running a server open to the
world. However I expect that you would be running a client that
would connect to their server, like your web browser is connected
to any site on the web. You do need to have enough trust that they
aren’t installing trojans like a Sony music CD would
(http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Sony-BMG/), or a porn site.
And the upside? Curing cancer, AIDS, alzheimers,
kinda Holy Grail type of stuff, but MY computer is my life, and to
compromise that by basically leaving gaping holes in my defense
system seems a little, well, uh, being polite here, less than an
educated move.
It sounds like you don’t know enough to make an informed decision
on this sort of thing, so best not to take a chance. The
interesting thing is how fantasize about it.
And this, “these processors are connected by the Internet, not
the high speed, low latency interconnects found in
supercomputers.”
Last I checked, ANY connection INSIDE of a computer kinda beat the
hell
out of any Internet connection, and any attempt to lead me not to
think so raises numerous red flags.
There is a tradeoff between speed and price. But more to your point
here, some problems lend themselves to slow connections, others
pretty much require fast ones. If a single compute node can do a
lot of work without needing updates, the problem is perfect for
this kind of cheap supercomputing.
I don’t think anyone is trying to claim the net is faster than a
parallel computer’s internal net. If you’re interested in getting
educated on this sort of thing, maybe a search on supercomputing
clusters would do the trick.
I just really doubt that the cure for cancer is gonna be figured
out by MY computer, in it’s spare time, with one processor, faster
or
even assisting a 5,000 processor supercomputer with the Internet
bottleneck in place. I wish it were so, common sense interdicts.
The odds of a huge boon to humanity from any project are slight,
plus you would be one of many. But I think it isn’t common sense
that interdicts, more likely a part of you that censors so well
that you need ibogaine to uncover why it is so afraid. There is
possibly something good in sharing a mystical communion with
thousands of people over doing good deeds, but trust is required,
and for this one needs to be able to trust one’s judgement.. and it
is hard to recover from the trauma of a mistake.
One tangible result from such a group effort was to show that some
kind of cryptographic key was no longer secure, resulting in
earlier adoption of more secure keys.
Bee
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:28:16 -0800 Don Patton   wrote:
Not to be crass, but I have always been skeptical about these.
Any
mathematical equation only needs one computer, and cannot harness
data from drones.
Why do you think this is the case? Virtually all powerful
computers
nowadays work in exactly this manner.
What they CAN do is spam to the n’th degree.
This is certainly true. It would be big news if it actually
happened with one of the science projects.
I decline. darkmattersfo@comcast.net wrote:
There is a “World Community Grid” reseach project that uses
personal pc’s all over the world to perform computational
research
to design new anti-HIV drugs based on molecular structure.
A small applet is loaded onto your PC and runs in the back
ground. As results are produced they are loaded back up to a
research mainframe. By using this type of distributed computing
researchers are able to process large amounts of data in a much
shorter time. This type of computing has been around and has
been/is
being used to: Solve complex mathematical problems, seach  for
extra-terrestrial live, smallpox research, etc.
There are currently over 100,000 people participating in this
particular project all over the world. The goal is to get 500,000
involved.
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/projects_showcase/viewFaahResea
r
ch.do
/]=————————————————————-
——–=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=————————————————————-
——–=[/
/]=————————————————————-
——-=[ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=————————————————————–
——-=[/
Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email,
no
account required http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480 Get the best
prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail
https://www.hushssl.com?l=485
/]=—————————————————————-
—–=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=—————————————————————–
—-=[/
/]=—————————————————————-
—–=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
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]=—————————————————————–
—-=[/
Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account
required
http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480
Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail
https://www.hushssl.com?l=485
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 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 3:22:39 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sex pistols
Cowboy junkies
Black flag
White zombie
Rolling Stones
The Doors (maybe?)
The Cars (maybe?)
Iron Maiden
Rat
White Snake
Smashing Pumpkins
Scissor Sisters
Matchbox 20
Blind Melon
Alice In Chains
B52’s
Radiohead
Red Hot Chili Peppers
50 cent
Garbage
The Eagles
Led Zepplin (maybe?)
Dinosaur Jr
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:51 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Guns & Roses

CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Yeah….pretty cool, but where are the answers or at least the bands we need to look for? hahahaha! Yes, I am lazy when it comes to puzzles or quizzes. I prefer multiple choice! Seriously, if you find all 75 can you post a list of the bands….not the answers (where they are), just the list.
Pray for peace,
Callie
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: World Communit Grid – HIV
Date: November 26, 2005 at 3:05:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 17:24:54 -0800 Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
wrote:
Hiya Slow,
Thanks for responding, you seem to have taken a personal interest
in
WHATEVER I rant about, thank you and I appreciate it.
This is from the “Folding at Home” website:
“HOW ARE THESE NEW ADVANCES POSSIBLE?
In order to make breakthroughs using distributed computing, new
methods are critical. Distributed computing is an unusual way to
perform large-scale calculations. While it gives computer
resources
much greater than a typical supercomputer (e.g. the almost 200,000
actively processing CPUs in FAH vs. 5,000 in a typical
supercomputer), these processors are connected by the Internet,
not
the high speed, low latency interconnects found in supercomputers.
Thus, we must develop new methods to use FAH’s unusual
computational
paradigm and capabilities. Moreover, these methods must be tested.
Much of our work in the first years of FAH has been to develop
and
test these methods on model systems: small proteins which can be
easily studied experimentally. With these experimental
comparisons,
we can test and validate our methods, as well as find out their
limitations (which is critical for improving our methods).
To date, FAH has been very successful, with over 25 published
works
in the first five years directly stemming from FAH calculations
(and
lots more on the way). We will continue to work on all fronts: new
scientific cores, new server side algorithms, new models for
proteins, and new questions related to testing our methods and
applications to disease and other biomedical questions.”.
This is what I don’t understand, 200k computers mystically linked
over the Internet with basically a Trojan installed, can figure
out
more than a 5 THOUSAND processor Supercomputer.
If everyone had free access to the 5,000 node supercomputer, maybe
groups like this wouldn’t need to look for spare cycles. The
network connections are no more “mystical” than what you are using
to read your mail. For simple compute power, 200k/5k = 40, so if
each contributor on average provided 1/40th of the power of a
supercomputer node, then the two are equivalent for problems that
don’t need lots of bandwidth.
All antivirus software must be disabled,
Is this true? It sounds implausible that this would be an absolute
requirement.
as well a tremendous I/O firewall breach must be maintained.
That would be the case if you were running a server open to the
world. However I expect that you would be running a client that
would connect to their server, like your web browser is connected
to any site on the web. You do need to have enough trust that they
aren’t installing trojans like a Sony music CD would
(http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Sony-BMG/), or a porn site.
And the upside? Curing cancer, AIDS, alzheimers,
kinda Holy Grail type of stuff, but MY computer is my life, and to
compromise that by basically leaving gaping holes in my defense
system seems a little, well, uh, being polite here, less than an
educated move.
It sounds like you don’t know enough to make an informed decision
on this sort of thing, so best not to take a chance. The
interesting thing is how fantasize about it.
And this, “these processors are connected by the Internet, not
the high speed, low latency interconnects found in
supercomputers.”
Last I checked, ANY connection INSIDE of a computer kinda beat the
hell
out of any Internet connection, and any attempt to lead me not to
think so raises numerous red flags.
There is a tradeoff between speed and price. But more to your point
here, some problems lend themselves to slow connections, others
pretty much require fast ones. If a single compute node can do a
lot of work without needing updates, the problem is perfect for
this kind of cheap supercomputing.
I don’t think anyone is trying to claim the net is faster than a
parallel computer’s internal net. If you’re interested in getting
educated on this sort of thing, maybe a search on supercomputing
clusters would do the trick.
I just really doubt that the cure for cancer is gonna be figured
out by MY computer, in it’s spare time, with one processor, faster
or
even assisting a 5,000 processor supercomputer with the Internet
bottleneck in place. I wish it were so, common sense interdicts.
The odds of a huge boon to humanity from any project are slight,
plus you would be one of many. But I think it isn’t common sense
that interdicts, more likely a part of you that censors so well
that you need ibogaine to uncover why it is so afraid. There is
possibly something good in sharing a mystical communion with
thousands of people over doing good deeds, but trust is required,
and for this one needs to be able to trust one’s judgement.. and it
is hard to recover from the trauma of a mistake.
One tangible result from such a group effort was to show that some
kind of cryptographic key was no longer secure, resulting in
earlier adoption of more secure keys.
Bee
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:28:16 -0800 Don Patton   wrote:
Not to be crass, but I have always been skeptical about these.
Any
mathematical equation only needs one computer, and cannot harness
data from drones.
Why do you think this is the case? Virtually all powerful
computers
nowadays work in exactly this manner.
What they CAN do is spam to the n’th degree.
This is certainly true. It would be big news if it actually
happened with one of the science projects.
I decline. darkmattersfo@comcast.net wrote:
There is a “World Community Grid” reseach project that uses
personal pc’s all over the world to perform computational
research
to design new anti-HIV drugs based on molecular structure.
A small applet is loaded onto your PC and runs in the back
ground. As results are produced they are loaded back up to a
research mainframe. By using this type of distributed computing
researchers are able to process large amounts of data in a much
shorter time. This type of computing has been around and has
been/is
being used to: Solve complex mathematical problems, seach  for
extra-terrestrial live, smallpox research, etc.
There are currently over 100,000 people participating in this
particular project all over the world. The goal is to get 500,000
involved.
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/projects_showcase/viewFaahResea
r
ch.do
/]=————————————————————-
——–=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=————————————————————-
——–=[/
/]=————————————————————-
——-=[ [%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=————————————————————–
——-=[/
Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email,
no
account required http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480 Get the best
prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail
https://www.hushssl.com?l=485
/]=—————————————————————-
—–=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=—————————————————————–
—-=[/
/]=—————————————————————-
—–=[
[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
]=—————————————————————–
—-=[/
Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required
http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480
Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail
https://www.hushssl.com?l=485
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 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 2:51:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Guns & Roses
CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Yeah….pretty cool, but where are the answers or at least the bands we need to look for? hahahaha! Yes, I am lazy when it comes to puzzles or quizzes. I prefer multiple choice! Seriously, if you find all 75 can you post a list of the bands….not the answers (where they are), just the list.
Pray for peace,
Callie
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 1:45:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
ha ha i got about 25 so far and then got stuck.  Start with the cart
on the left, that has Guns N’ Roses on it and you’ll start to get the
idea 🙂
On 11/26/05, CallieMimosa@aol.com <CallieMimosa@aol.com> wrote:
Yeah….pretty cool, but where are the answers or at least the bands we need
to look for? hahahaha! Yes, I am lazy when it comes to puzzles or quizzes. I
prefer multiple choice! Seriously, if you find all 75 can you post a list of
the bands….not the answers (where they are), just the list.
Pray for peace,
Callie
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 1:24:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah….pretty cool, but where are the answers or at least the bands we need to look for? hahahaha! Yes, I am lazy when it comes to puzzles or quizzes. I prefer multiple choice! Seriously, if you find all 75 can you post a list of the bands….not the answers (where they are), just the list.
Pray for peace,
Callie
From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fwd: Spot the 75 bands in the picture: This is cool!
Date: November 26, 2005 at 12:48:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is quite fun!
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – addition
Date: November 26, 2005 at 9:14:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
this actually does make a lot of sense to me too.
the idea that low doses that really are not large enough may leave a patient ill, in withdrwal, and not able to deal with adverse health conditions.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – addition
Something which maybe we can consider with this death is this:
In administering extract or HCl a dose which is insufficient or low may precipitate adverse medical conditions due to the onset of withdrawals and clients need to be carefully supervised in the days following treatment to ensure the risk of such events has passed.
Lee
Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Nick,
Thanks mucho. The extra info you have given here is great. Many thanks.
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9 grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
According to: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1/Ibogaine.html
The third recorded fatality occurred in 2000, in the U.K. The patient was a 38 year old male, and suffered from hepatitis C. He was administered a total of approximately 5 grams of a total iboga extract standardised to 15% ibogaine. This was a most peculiar case, as the fatality did not occur until after the effects of ibogaine had subsided, 38 hours after initial administration. Police toxicologist Dr. John Taylor told testified that the level of ibogaine in the dead man’s blood was “well below the normal toxic dose” (Kerr, 2001). According to writer Nick Sandberg (2002), the official inquest named the primary cause of death as asphyxiation due to vomit clogging airways, with liver failure as a secondary cause.
What is interesting is that this states 5grams and indeed most of the other reports I have seen also state 5 grams, so I am not sure if you are 100% on the amount?
Anyway, I assume JW was being treated for Heroin or was he on Methadone maintenance at the time?
In either case, the amount he took is below what would normally be given and I am left with the thought that death may have been due to insufficient iboga extract been given resulting in an onset of late withdrawls agitated in part by choking on a sandwich. This coupled with any other health issues JW may have had such as Hep C. According to Dr Ed:
“Disorders appearing during “recovery,” included gastrointestinal hyperactivity/acidity (ulcers, gastro-esophageal reflux, diarrhea, etc.) and thrombosis (coronary occlusions, thrombophlebitis with pulmonary embolism/infarction, arterial thrombosis-mesenteric occlusion/cerebral artery strokes) and infection at sites previous dormant during stress (pneumonia, dental and skin abscesses, etc.) In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).”
5grams of extract (based on the generally recognised 15% ibogaine content) is equivalent to 750mg of ibogaine (6=900mg), a very small amount indeed. For a 70kg male = 10,7mg/kg and 12,85 mg/kg respectively. In either case much too low for heroin interruption treatment especially if only 5grams were given.
So I find myself reading the coroners conclusions as basically uninformed and highly speculative as the coroner knew nothing of the amounts of ibogaine/extract needed for addiction treatment and perhaps knew nothing about the complications of withdrawal as stated by Dr. Ed (whose contributions to this list I find “wonderful”).
In this case I think withdrawals of some kind were inevitable and what this report shows about the dangers of ibogaine or the extract itself, as opposed to withdrawing from heroin, is this: nothing. Its quite possibly a big red herring. In fact one could argue that death was due to insufficient ibogaine/extract been given.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 25 November 2005 16:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Nick,
Can you set the record even straighter?
There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.
I have heard it reported as:
1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the stomach .
and as you state below:
2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended in the toilet.
Hi Lee,
I’ve not heard of the first scenario. It was number 2. I knew the girl who gave the treatment and was at the inquest, both sittings. When the patient began to die paramedics were called and one said that it looked like a stomach burst. This story got propagated about for a while as it was another year until the actual inquest began. The first inquest was adjourned when I pointed out that J had not taken actual ibogaine but rather the Indra iboga extract. Dr Mash was contacted by the pathologist and she confirmed that the blood samples taken show low traces of iboga extract not pure ibogaine. The pathologist’s report put cause of death down to inhalation of vomit, if I recall correctly, but am not 100% on this. The coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” Dr Mash was keen that ibogaine itself not be blamed when J had not taken it. A year or so later t.iboga was put on a list of substances due to be controlled in the UK. However the paper never went through, there were 50 or so other herbs on it, and thus iboga is still not scheduled in the UK. (Though supply would likely be an offense).
Are these two sceanarios the same person?
Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?
Frankly, if there had been a defense pathologist in court (one defending the iboga extract) I very much doubt that the verdict would have come out the way it did. It’s more that the coroner, Paul Knapp, if I recall, regarded it as his duty to warn the public of any dangerous new substances about (fair enough in a way) and as there was no one there to cross examine the state pathologist he did just that.
Let me know if you need more
Nick
Thanks
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some 38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids” Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.” Peace,  Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?
I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory – addition
Date: November 26, 2005 at 8:19:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Something which maybe we can consider with this death is this:
In administering extract or HCl a dose which is insufficient or low may precipitate adverse medical conditions due to the onset of withdrawals and clients need to be carefully supervised in the days following treatment to ensure the risk of such events has passed.
Lee
Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Nick,
Thanks mucho. The extra info you have given here is great. Many thanks.
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9 grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
According to: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1/Ibogaine.html
 The third recorded fatality occurred in 2000, in the U.K. The patient was a 38 year old male, and suffered from hepatitis C. He was administered a total of approximately 5 grams of a total iboga extract standardised to 15% ibogaine. This was a most peculiar case, as the fatality did not occur until after the effects of ibogaine had subsided, 38 hours after initial administration. Police toxicologist Dr. John Taylor told testified that the level of ibogaine in the dead man’s blood was “well below the normal toxic dose” (Kerr, 2001). According to writer Nick Sandberg (2002), the official inquest named the primary cause of death as asphyxiation due to vomit clogging airways, with liver failure as a secondary cause.
What is interesting is that this states 5grams and indeed most of the other reports I have seen also state 5 grams, so I am not sure if you are 100% on the amount?
Anyway, I assume JW was being treated for Heroin or was he on Methadone maintenance at the time?
In either case, the amount he took is below what would normally be given and I am left with the thought that death may have been due to insufficient iboga extract been given resulting in an onset of late withdrawls agitated in part by choking on a sandwich. This coupled with any other health issues JW may have had such as Hep C. According to Dr Ed:
“Disorders appearing during “recovery,” included gastrointestinal hyperactivity/acidity (ulcers, gastro-esophageal reflux, diarrhea, etc.) and thrombosis (coronary occlusions, thrombophlebitis with pulmonary embolism/infarction, arterial thrombosis-mesenteric occlusion/cerebral artery strokes) and infection at sites previous dormant during stress (pneumonia, dental and skin abscesses, etc.) In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).”
5grams of extract (based on the generally recognised 15% ibogaine content) is equivalent to 750mg of ibogaine (6=900mg), a very small amount indeed. For a 70kg male = 10,7mg/kg and 12,85 mg/kg respectively. In either case much too low for heroin interruption treatment especially if only 5grams were given.
So I find myself reading the coroners conclusions as basically uninformed and highly speculative as the coroner knew nothing of the amounts of ibogaine/extract needed for addiction treatment and perhaps knew nothing about the complications of withdrawal as stated by Dr. Ed (whose contributions to this list I find “wonderful”).
In this case I think withdrawals of some kind were inevitable and what this report shows about the dangers of ibogaine or the extract itself, as opposed to withdrawing from heroin, is this: nothing. Its quite possibly a big red herring. In fact one could argue that death was due to insufficient ibogaine/extract been given.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 25 November 2005 16:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Nick,
Can you set the record even straighter?
There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.
I have heard it reported as:
1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the stomach .
and as you state below:
2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended in the toilet.
Hi Lee,
I’ve not heard of the first scenario. It was number 2. I knew the girl who gave the treatment and was at the inquest, both sittings. When the patient began to die paramedics were called and one said that it looked like a stomach burst. This story got propagated about for a while as it was another year until the actual inquest began. The first inquest was adjourned when I pointed out that J had not taken actual ibogaine but rather the Indra iboga extract. Dr Mash was contacted by the pathologist and she confirmed that the blood samples taken show low traces of iboga extract not pure ibogaine. The pathologist’s report put cause of death down to inhalation of vomit, if I recall correctly, but am not 100% on this. The coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” Dr Mash was keen that ibogaine itself not be blamed when J had not taken it. A year or so later t.iboga was put on a list of substances due to be controlled in the UK. However the paper never went through, there were 50 or so other herbs on it, and thus iboga is still not scheduled in the UK. (Though supply would likely be an offense).
Are these two sceanarios the same person?
Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?
Frankly, if there had been a defense pathologist in court (one defending the iboga extract) I very much doubt that the verdict would have come out the way it did. It’s more that the coroner, Paul Knapp, if I recall, regarded it as his duty to warn the public of any dangerous new substances about (fair enough in a way) and as there was no one there to cross examine the state pathologist he did just that.
Let me know if you need more
Nick
Thanks
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some 38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?
I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death – Death in 2000 JW – Alternative Theory
Date: November 26, 2005 at 6:50:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick,
Thanks mucho. The extra info you have given here is great. Many thanks.
Last night thinking on this:
The amount of extract for methadone withdrawal is 11 grams with Sara and 9 grams with Marc Emery (who is very conservative in his approach but for good reason) per Howards:
Forms & Dose Regimens
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/ibogaine_forms_dose_regimen.ppt
For Heroin withdrawal the amount Sara states is 7grams of extract.
According to: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1/Ibogaine.html
 The third recorded fatality occurred in 2000, in the U.K. The patient was a 38 year old male, and suffered from hepatitis C. He was administered a total of approximately 5 grams of a total iboga extract standardised to 15% ibogaine. This was a most peculiar case, as the fatality did not occur until after the effects of ibogaine had subsided, 38 hours after initial administration. Police toxicologist Dr. John Taylor told testified that the level of ibogaine in the dead man’s blood was “well below the normal toxic dose” (Kerr, 2001). According to writer Nick Sandberg (2002), the official inquest named the primary cause of death as asphyxiation due to vomit clogging airways, with liver failure as a secondary cause.
What is interesting is that this states 5grams and indeed most of the other reports I have seen also state 5 grams, so I am not sure if you are 100% on the amount?
Anyway, I assume JW was being treated for Heroin or was he on Methadone maintenance at the time?
In either case, the amount he took is below what would normally be given and I am left with the thought that death may have been due to insufficient iboga extract been given resulting in an onset of late withdrawls agitated in part by choking on a sandwich. This coupled with any other health issues JW may have had such as Hep C. According to Dr Ed:
“Disorders appearing during “recovery,” included gastrointestinal hyperactivity/acidity (ulcers, gastro-esophageal reflux, diarrhea, etc.) and thrombosis (coronary occlusions, thrombophlebitis with pulmonary embolism/infarction, arterial thrombosis-mesenteric occlusion/cerebral artery strokes) and infection at sites previous dormant during stress (pneumonia, dental and skin abscesses, etc.) In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).”
5grams of extract (based on the generally recognised 15% ibogaine content) is equivalent to 750mg of ibogaine (6=900mg), a very small amount indeed. For a 70kg male = 10,7mg/kg and 12,85 mg/kg respectively. In either case much too low for heroin interruption treatment especially if only 5grams were given.
So I find myself reading the coroners conclusions as basically uninformed and highly speculative as the coroner knew nothing of the amounts of ibogaine/extract needed for addiction treatment and perhaps knew nothing about the complications of withdrawal as stated by Dr. Ed (whose contributions to this list I find “wonderful”).
In this case I think withdrawals of some kind were inevitable and what this report shows about the dangers of ibogaine or the extract itself, as opposed to withdrawing from heroin, is this: nothing. Its quite possibly a big red herring. In fact one could argue that death was due to insufficient ibogaine/extract been given.
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 25 November 2005 16:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Nick,
Can you set the record even straighter?
There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.
I have heard it reported as:
1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the stomach .
and as you state below:
2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended in the toilet.
Hi Lee,
I’ve not heard of the first scenario. It was number 2. I knew the girl who gave the treatment and was at the inquest, both sittings. When the patient began to die paramedics were called and one said that it looked like a stomach burst. This story got propagated about for a while as it was another year until the actual inquest began. The first inquest was adjourned when I pointed out that J had not taken actual ibogaine but rather the Indra iboga extract. Dr Mash was contacted by the pathologist and she confirmed that the blood samples taken show low traces of iboga extract not pure ibogaine. The pathologist’s report put cause of death down to inhalation of vomit, if I recall correctly, but am not 100% on this. The coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” Dr Mash was keen that ibogaine itself not be blamed when J had not taken it. A year or so later t.iboga was put on a list of substances due to be controlled in the UK. However the paper never went through, there were 50 or so other herbs on it, and thus iboga is still not scheduled in the UK. (Though supply would likely be an offense).
Are these two sceanarios the same person?
Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?
Frankly, if there had been a defense pathologist in court (one defending the iboga extract) I very much doubt that the verdict would have come out the way it did. It’s more that the coroner, Paul Knapp, if I recall, regarded it as his duty to warn the public of any dangerous new substances about (fair enough in a way) and as there was no one there to cross examine the state pathologist he did just that.
Let me know if you need more
Nick
Thanks
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some 38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?
I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 26, 2005 at 6:14:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Dr Ed,
Ok. My question is if a provider has a client in the midst of this reflux sceanario what would be the appropriate first aid measures to take?
Thanks
Lee
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
I have no exact facts to contribute.  To answer your last question, to me, it means Ibogaine should not be given without confident/competent assistance from another.  Dr. Ed
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Date: November 26, 2005 at 12:17:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Found this book new on Amazon for 8.63 so I snagged it up! Can’t wait to read it. Sounds very interesting.
Thanks for a heads up Preston.
Peace, Callie
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: November 26, 2005 at 12:04:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Brenda! I am so very happy for you that I can’t think of any appropriate words! lol! Girl, you deserve all the best, as we all do, so get out there and GET YOU SOME HAPPINESS!!!
Can’t wait to hear more!
Peace and lots of hugs
Callie
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 25, 2005 at 1:34:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have no exact facts to contribute.  To answer your last question, to me, it means Ibogaine should not be given without confident/competent assistance from another.  Dr. Ed
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death: – Amsterdam Hotel Death
Date: November 25, 2005 at 1:31:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Afraid I can’t get the details.  It was the first Ibogaine death I had “heard” about.  Pret-ty sure it was a woman and in Amsterdam, but can’t confirm it.  Dr. Ed
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 25, 2005 at 12:27:38 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 25 November 2005 16:30
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Nick,
Can you set the record even straighter?
There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.
I have heard it reported as:
1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the stomach .
and as you state below:
2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended in the toilet.
Hi Lee,
I’ve not heard of the first scenario. It was number 2. I knew the girl who gave the treatment and was at the inquest, both sittings. When the patient began to die paramedics were called and one said that it looked like a stomach burst. This story got propagated about for a while as it was another year until the actual inquest began. The first inquest was adjourned when I pointed out that J had not taken actual ibogaine but rather the Indra iboga extract. Dr Mash was contacted by the pathologist and she confirmed that the blood samples taken show low traces of iboga extract not pure ibogaine. The pathologist’s report put cause of death down to inhalation of vomit, if I recall correctly, but am not 100% on this. The coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” Dr Mash was keen that ibogaine itself not be blamed when J had not taken it. A year or so later t.iboga was put on a list of substances due to be controlled in the UK. However the paper never went through, there were 50 or so other herbs on it, and thus iboga is still not scheduled in the UK. (Though supply would likely be an offense).
Are these two sceanarios the same person?
Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?
Frankly, if there had been a defense pathologist in court (one defending the iboga extract) I very much doubt that the verdict would have come out the way it did. It’s more that the coroner, Paul Knapp, if I recall, regarded it as his duty to warn the public of any dangerous new substances about (fair enough in a way) and as there was no one there to cross examine the state pathologist he did just that.
Let me know if you need more
Nick
Thanks
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some 38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?
I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “Ibogi Boogie Boogie” <GardenRestaurant@comcast.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine laws in Japan and Russia
Date: November 25, 2005 at 12:11:11 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Did anyone know the status of Ibogaine in Japan and Russia.?
Thanks you for your help.
Francis
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 25, 2005 at 11:29:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick,
Can you set the record even straighter?
There is some confusion about this death in 2000 due to the extract.
I have heard it reported as:
1. Ate a large meal a few days after treatment, burst a vessel, ruptured the stomach .
and as you state below:
2. Choked on a sandwich somehow dying on his own vomit while left unattended in the toilet.
Are these two sceanarios the same person?
Maybe I need to reread this thread but how exactly does dying from inhaling ones fluids imply that ibogaine/eboga extract is unsafe?
Thanks
Lee
Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some 38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?
I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 25, 2005 at 11:04:15 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Just to set the record straighter, an ibogaine death actually HAS been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids. JW, Jan 2000 in London, died in this manner after taking 6g of iboga extract to treat long term opiate dependency. Coroner recorded “fatal reaction to t.iboga extract.” He died when left unattended briefly after eating a sandwich some 38 hours after taking the drug.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net]
Sent: 25 November 2005 03:23
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed

While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).

Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients. 

Am I right, Doc?

Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!   

Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:

What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?

I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.

Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death: – Amsterdam Hotel Death
Date: November 25, 2005 at 11:02:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Dr Ed,
Can you post a link to the death you are referring to and if I may be so dumb, suggest how it could have better been handled.
Thanks
Lee
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It certainly is a possibility.  There was a Ibogaine treated woman’s death in an Amsterdam hotel room that sounded to me like an aspiration death from reflux.  It is rare, but very possible.
Most aspiration just causes cough/wheezing and then goes away fairly quickly.  How-ever a lot of “community acquired pneumonia” probably starts this way, because 50% of “community acquired pneumonia” doesn’t grow an organism when the sputum is cultured.  Dr. Ed
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 25, 2005 at 12:16:15 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanx to all you folks, for taking this seriously……it is!  Peace, Dr. Ed
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 25, 2005 at 12:09:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yep, Matt, you’re right! completely right!  Dr. Ed
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 25, 2005 at 12:06:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It certainly is a possibility.  There was a Ibogaine treated woman’s death in an Amsterdam hotel room that sounded to me like an aspiration death from reflux.  It is rare, but very possible.
Most aspiration just causes cough/wheezing and then goes away fairly quickly.  How-ever a lot of “community acquired pneumonia” probably starts this way, because 50% of “community acquired pneumonia” doesn’t grow an organism when the sputum is cultured.  Dr. Ed
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] To SuperBee:
Date: November 25, 2005 at 12:03:28 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Vomiting when you’re awake allows you to cough out what might be aspirated, but “Reflux” when asleep, especially when extremely tired, you may not be awake enough to cough it out.  They both are similar in that stomach contents come UP, and pass by the trachea, when they can be aspirated.  Probably depends mostly upon one’s alertness to recognize vomitus in the pharynx/windpipe, so that you can cough.  Much “nocturnal asthma” is reflux into the trachea (wind pipe) and an individual awakens coughing/wheezing.  ALL asthmatics should sleep “uphill” with six inch blocks under the feet at the head of the bed.  Just using pillows bends you in your middle, and makes reflux happen more readily.  If you have awakened by Reflux, the “bed blocks” would be a good idea to prevent the danger of aspiration.  Most asthmatics aren’t even aware this is happening.  Most allergists treating “asthma” also don’t recognize this, especially when asthma starts in “middle age.”  Peace.  Dr. Ed
From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 11:40:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Remove the “For” in the last sentence, oops, my bad
Don Patton wrote:
The thread was Ibogaine deaths, I wanted to alert ANYBODY about reflux, Ibo associated or not. Reggie White didn’t die from Ibo, as the good Dr. pointed out. Far be it from me to put words in Dr.Friedrichs mouth, I just wanted to point out that reflux should be a consideration  with ANYBODY caring for an incapacated individual. I think I have done that, and as for you, “Excuse the hell outta me”.  If one person reads this and their partner wakes up choking and has an glimmer into what’s going on, this entire discussion will have been worthwhile.
I have done this, after killing a half-gallon of Scotch, passing out, then inhaling the contents of my stomach. There was no “Vomiting” involved. I wish it would have been that easy. The gagging, the choking, I came out of a self-induced coma fighting for my life. I couldn’t talk for three days. Alcohol, and I suspect opiates, relax the ES. The implication, without you putting words into my mouth, is that death by aspiration can occur in ANY individual impaired below sobriety, withdrawal or not.
Lighten up, dude, we were discussing deaths during treatment, not inevitible outcomes. People die. Inhaling dinner might be one of those things we can  expect and prepare for, and in an intense situation, the knowledge for a caregiver has might keep a bad situation from turning into a panic situation.
Matthew Shriver wrote:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed

While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).

Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients. 

Am I right, Doc?

Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!   

Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:

What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?

I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.

Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 11:36:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The thread was Ibogaine deaths, I wanted to alert ANYBODY about reflux, Ibo associated or not. Reggie White didn’t die from Ibo, as the good Dr. pointed out. Far be it from me to put words in Dr.Friedrichs mouth, I just wanted to point out that reflux should be a consideration  with ANYBODY caring for an incapacated individual. I think I have done that, and as for you, “Excuse the hell outta me”.  If one person reads this and their partner wakes up choking and has an glimmer into what’s going on, this entire discussion will have been worthwhile.
I have done this, after killing a half-gallon of Scotch, passing out, then inhaling the contents of my stomach. There was no “Vomiting” involved. I wish it would have been that easy. The gagging, the choking, I came out of a self-induced coma fighting for my life. I couldn’t talk for three days. Alcohol, and I suspect opiates, relax the ES. The implication, without you putting words into my mouth, is that death by aspiration can occur in ANY individual impaired below sobriety, withdrawal or not.
Lighten up, dude, we were discussing deaths during treatment, not inevitible outcomes. People die. Inhaling dinner might be one of those things we can  expect and prepare for, and in an intense situation, the knowledge for a caregiver has might keep a bad situation from turning into a panic situation.
Matthew Shriver wrote:
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed

While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).

Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients. 

Am I right, Doc?

Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!   

Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:

What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?

I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.

Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 10:23:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well having read all of that again I still don’t see where he said “Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids”  Maybe it’s all the same to you but in reality you put words into someone else’s mouth.  I don’t even see that idea implied here.  If we are talking about people dying it’s important that we are accurate, misinformation can be as bad as disinformation.  The implication is that death by aspiration could occur in someone undergoing NARCOTIC WITHDRAWAL, not from ibogaine use.
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:58 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed

While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).

Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients. 

Am I right, Doc?

Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!   

Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:

What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?

I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.

Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 9:57:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Matt, here is a quote:
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed
While looking this up, I found this:
In addition, gastro-esophageal reflux is known to lead to aspiration of acidic stomach contents into the lungs, causing “asthma-like” symptoms and sometimes sudden death (e.g. Reggie White of Green Bay Packer fame).
Seems like he has already answered my idiotic question, I just lost it in the threads. My point was, the threat is not from vomiting, but from reflux. Inhalation CAN and is more likely to occur without the obvious signs of vomiting, a patient can be lying quietly on their back and their stomach just starts draining into their lungs. My intent is to alert caregivers that sudden choking of a benign patient may be indicative of this, and as they will be unable to communicate, (inhaling stomach acid is akin to inhaling a lit propane torch soaked in gasoline) just don’t freak out. Vomiting may come afterwards, after SEVERE gagging, choking and coughing, and vocal chords will be impaired, singed, so to speak, for quite a while. ANYBODY who is “Knocked out” is susceptible to this, not just Ibo patients.
Am I right, Doc?
Geez, I luv you guys, thanx for being here!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:

What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?

I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.

Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
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From: “Jasen Chamoun” <jasenhappy@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: November 24, 2005 at 9:31:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah Brenda,
Yeeha,…thanks for sharing. Congratulations on a successful journey.
Did you see anyone that had passed on,..I understand you saw loved ones.
Were they all people that are stll alive, or did you see or communicate with
some that had passed over,..gone home?
                                          with love, Jasen
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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 9:22:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:

What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?

I am pretty sure I never read Dr Ed saying that.

Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 8:59:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dude, when I’m vomiting, ain’t NOTHING relaxed, hahaha! More like overcome! I was talking about when you are asleep, passed out, and your stomach contents just kinda flow upwards and get inhaled in an incapicitated state. Isn’t that different from vomiting? I’m not arguing, I just want to get my semantics correct, isn’t reflux and vomiting two different things? I thought vomiting included stomach convulsions, reflux did not.
I have woke up choking on stomach acid, vomiting means I’m scrubbing half-digested turkey and peas offa my dresser and outta the carpet. Kinda pisses off the ol’ lady.
Aren’t the stomach convulsions MEANT to overcome the E.S.?
What I’m asking is, when you say Ibogaine deaths have been attributed to vomiting and inhaling associated fluids, are you talking about reflux inhalation?
Please be patient with me, I just want to get this straight.
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: World Communit Grid – HIV
Date: November 24, 2005 at 8:24:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hiya Slow,
Thanks for responding, you seem to have taken a personal interest in WHATEVER I rant about, thank you and I appreciate it.
This is from the “Folding at Home” website:
“HOW ARE THESE NEW ADVANCES POSSIBLE?
In order to make breakthroughs using distributed computing, new methods are critical. Distributed computing is an unusual way to perform large-scale calculations. While it gives computer resources much greater than a typical supercomputer (e.g. the almost 200,000 actively processing CPUs in FAH vs. 5,000 in a typical supercomputer), these processors are connected by the Internet, not the high speed, low latency interconnects found in supercomputers. Thus, we must develop new methods to use FAH’s unusual computational paradigm and capabilities. Moreover, these methods must be tested.
Much of our work in the first years of FAH has been to develop and test these methods on model systems: small proteins which can be easily studied experimentally. With these experimental comparisons, we can test and validate our methods, as well as find out their limitations (which is critical for improving our methods).
To date, FAH has been very successful, with over 25 published works in the first five years directly stemming from FAH calculations (and lots more on the way). We will continue to work on all fronts: new scientific cores, new server side algorithms, new models for proteins, and new questions related to testing our methods and applications to disease and other biomedical questions.”.
This is what I don’t understand, 200k computers mystically linked over the Internet with basically a Trojan installed, can figure out more than a 5 THOUSAND processor Supercomputer. All antivirus software must be disabled, as well a tremendous I/O firewall breach must be maintained. And the upside? Curing cancer, AIDS, alzheimers, kinda Holy Grail type of stuff, but MY computer is my life, and to compromise that by basically leaving gaping holes in my defense system seems a little, well, uh, being polite here, less than an educated move.
And this, “these processors are connected by the Internet, not the high speed, low latency interconnects found in supercomputers.” Last I checked, ANY connection INSIDE of a computer kinda beat the hell out of any Internet connection, and any attempt to lead me not to think so raises numerous red flags.
I just really doubt that the cure for cancer is gonna be figured out by MY computer, in it’s spare time, with one processor, faster or even assisting a 5,000 processor supercomputer with the Internet bottleneck in place. I wish it were so, common sense interdicts.
Bee
slowone@hush.ai wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:28:16 -0800 Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
wrote:
Not to be crass, but I have always been skeptical about these. Any
mathematical equation only needs one computer, and cannot harness
data from drones.
Why do you think this is the case? Virtually all powerful computers
nowadays work in exactly this manner.
What they CAN do is spam to the n’th degree.
This is certainly true. It would be big news if it actually
happened with one of the science projects.
I decline.
darkmattersfo@comcast.net wrote:
There is a “World Community Grid” reseach project that uses
personal pc’s all over the world to perform computational research
to design new anti-HIV drugs based on molecular structure.
A small applet is loaded onto your PC and runs in the back
ground. As results are produced they are loaded back up to a
research mainframe. By using this type of distributed computing
researchers are able to process large amounts of data in a much
shorter time. This type of computing has been around and has
been/is being used to: Solve complex mathematical problems, seach
for extra-terrestrial live, smallpox research, etc.
There are currently over 100,000 people participating in this
particular project all over the world. The goal is to get 500,000
involved.
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/projects_showcase/viewFaahResear
ch.do
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Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required
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From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 7:59:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The esophageal sphincter HAS to relax whenever there is vomiting, otherwise the acid and food would stay in the stomach.  Reflux happens easier during reclining sleep, if the esophageal sphincter is weak or permanently ruptured by an “diaphrag-matic hernia” from the abdomen into the chest.   Dr. Ed.
From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: November 24, 2005 at 7:26:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Brenda,
SOOOO happy for you!! AND Proud of you as well, please keep us informed!!
Luv ya–
Don
shakti@photon.net wrote:
Hello again!
I wanted to share a few highlights of my Ibgaine experience with you,
mostly things I want to keep fresh in my mind.  I am enjoying my cleansed
feeling state so much, I’ll be off the computer for a while 🙂
I ingested 14 (grams?)  whatever the amount is weighed in and I weight
about 120.  My session was intense and difficult for the first ten hours. I knew my ego was resisting – it did not want to let the feelings that had
been repressed for however long to surface.  Then for 2 hours it was
basically a countdown between ego surrendering first or Iboga coming in
full force.   I started seeing pictures of the Dalai Lama, my BF, Scott,
they were smiling.  Scott eyes were shining bright and they had this
loving, supportive energy that he was beaming down to me.
In one moment, I had to close my eyes and and a bright light flashed like
then a laser beamed down and scanned rings of electro-buzzing energy
scanned my whole body from head to toe.  Then a huge wave of energy rolled
through my body.  Tears started pouring out of my eyes, I would get more
visions of people that I cared about, mostly family, I saw my mother lying
in her bed crying, then I would get smaller waves of emotional release,
then tears, this went on for hours.
Then the deep stuff came.  At this point the little screen projected a
couple feet in front if me and I saw those memories that I had not been
able to make sense of in my life that were trapped inside me.  More waves.
I was totally surrendered.  Scott’s picture was way over to the right, a
lot bigger than the little life pictures screen.
I also was taken to bigger views of the planet and the nature of
consciousness.  The waves got farther in between and then Pure Presence
arose within me and I knew myself as pure Awareness.  I was able to view
my mind…a still lake as clear as glass.  I started dropping little
pebbles and watching the smooth ripples then it would be still and clear
again.  I was aware of my ego to the left of this and everything else
around was Presence.  I started realizing that I was free and I kept
saying it over and over.  Feelings kept coming up and this went on for a
long time.  I saw myself in our garden seeing everything like for the
first time – a flower, my BF, the house and  my cats.  I was in compete
awe of the life-force that animates everything.
I realized that my deep intention was that I wanted to know Truth.  For
me, I believe I have had a glimpse of what I wanted to know.  I feel like
I have emerged at a new level and I can’t wait to see my BF!  I swear I
feel like I am on my way to a honeymoon in my relationship and in my life.
I plan on taking this energy and building a new foundation for my life.
A lot more happened and many synchronicities occurred before and after.  I
wish everyone a great day and Happy Thanksgiving if you are having that –
I will be on an airplane going home.  I want to express my gratitude for
the people that reached out to me and helped me get to this point.
Talk to ya soon,
Brenda 🙂
———————————————————–
WebMail provided by Photon.Net – http://www.photon.net/
Nationwide internet access, thousands of dial-up numbers!
Web hosting, multimedia broadcasting, e-commerce, and more.
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 6:20:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Isn’t relaxation of the esophageal sphincter the main reason for aspiration? Usually during sleep? That’s not vomiting. Correct me if I am misinformed. Thanx!!
Edfriedrichs@aol.com wrote:
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: November 24, 2005 at 3:30:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Wicked!!!!!
You have no idea how happy i am to hear that!!!!
Just remember that right now everything lies in your hands—not ibogas—–now its up to you to cultivate that over all wellness
it will diminish as time goes by so BE-CAREFULL that you dont loose it!!!!!!
Have a plan when the cravings come on…..becuase when they come they come on with a full vengance
with love
matt
From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:53:05 -0700
Awesome Brenda. I don’t mean to make those who haven’t taken it feel apart
from by saying this, but welcome to the club so to speak. I related to so
much of what you mentioned from my own experiences. The ego vs ibo thing,
the mind like clear glass feeling, all of the emotional imagery stuff, the
presence of awareness, and the glimpse of ultimate truth are all elements I
have experienced in one way or another in my ibogaine sessions. I’m glad
you got such good results and look forward to hearing how you do going
forward.
Matt
—–Original Message—–
From: shakti@photon.net [mailto:shakti@photon.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:54 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Hello again!
I wanted to share a few highlights of my Ibgaine experience with you,
mostly things I want to keep fresh in my mind. I am enjoying my cleansed
feeling state so much, I’ll be off the computer for a while 🙂
I ingested 14 (grams?) whatever the amount is weighed in and I weight
about 120. My session was intense and difficult for the first ten hours.
I knew my ego was resisting – it did not want to let the feelings that had
been repressed for however long to surface. Then for 2 hours it was
basically a countdown between ego surrendering first or Iboga coming in
full force. I started seeing pictures of the Dalai Lama, my BF, Scott,
they were smiling. Scott eyes were shining bright and they had this
loving, supportive energy that he was beaming down to me.
In one moment, I had to close my eyes and and a bright light flashed like
then a laser beamed down and scanned rings of electro-buzzing energy
scanned my whole body from head to toe. Then a huge wave of energy rolled
through my body. Tears started pouring out of my eyes, I would get more
visions of people that I cared about, mostly family, I saw my mother lying
in her bed crying, then I would get smaller waves of emotional release,
then tears, this went on for hours.
Then the deep stuff came. At this point the little screen projected a
couple feet in front if me and I saw those memories that I had not been
able to make sense of in my life that were trapped inside me. More waves.
I was totally surrendered. Scott’s picture was way over to the right, a
lot bigger than the little life pictures screen.
I also was taken to bigger views of the planet and the nature of
consciousness. The waves got farther in between and then Pure Presence
arose within me and I knew myself as pure Awareness. I was able to view
my mind…a still lake as clear as glass. I started dropping little
pebbles and watching the smooth ripples then it would be still and clear
again. I was aware of my ego to the left of this and everything else
around was Presence. I started realizing that I was free and I kept
saying it over and over. Feelings kept coming up and this went on for a
long time. I saw myself in our garden seeing everything like for the
first time – a flower, my BF, the house and my cats. I was in compete
awe of the life-force that animates everything.
I realized that my deep intention was that I wanted to know Truth. For
me, I believe I have had a glimpse of what I wanted to know. I feel like
I have emerged at a new level and I can’t wait to see my BF! I swear I
feel like I am on my way to a honeymoon in my relationship and in my life.
I plan on taking this energy and building a new foundation for my life.
A lot more happened and many synchronicities occurred before and after. I
wish everyone a great day and Happy Thanksgiving if you are having that –
I will be on an airplane going home. I want to express my gratitude for
the people that reached out to me and helped me get to this point.
Talk to ya soon,
Brenda 🙂
———————————————————–
WebMail provided by Photon.Net – http://www.photon.net/
Nationwide internet access, thousands of dial-up numbers!
Web hosting, multimedia broadcasting, e-commerce, and more.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Help protect your PC with Virus Guard from MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Withdrawal Death:
Date: November 24, 2005 at 3:17:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It is worth noting that Vomiting leading to Aspiration into the Lungs CAN AND DOES CAUSE sudden death (asphyxiation/drowning).  Vomiting is certainly a frequent part of narcotic withdrawal, especially if the stomach is full of food from recent eating.  That is why when someone suffers a convulsive seizure, it is important to prevent vomiting/aspiration and/or obstruction of the air-way by the tongue.  Benzo withdrawal can also cause seizures, sometimes days after stopping valium because valium is “long” acting as a dependency drug.  You can prolong alcohol withdrawal with “too much” benzodiazapine” treatment, because they are a sedative substitute for alcohol.  Those are SOME of the reasons that Withdrawal of any fashion and especially Ibogaine treatments should have a sophisticated helper present thruout, ideally a medically trained one AND no hestitancy to call “911.”  Peace,  Dr. Ed
From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 24, 2005 at 2:36:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston Peet wrote:
Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaineI’d always heard alcohol was THE only drug that could literally kill you as a direct result of the withdrawals. I could be mistaken, but I did learn it in a 28-dayw program, and we all know how reliable they are when it comes to addiction and drug use
Yuppers… well, both alcohol and barbitruate withdrawal are about equally dangerous as far as risk of seizure and death.
About 5% of people will experience delerium tremens (DTs) during alcohol withdrawal. Of people who experience DTs, about 35% will die without medical attention, while a little less than 5% will die if they receive medical treament (usually in the form of benzodiazapines or other anti-convulsants).
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From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: World Communit Grid – HIV
Date: November 24, 2005 at 2:10:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:28:16 -0800 Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
wrote:
Not to be crass, but I have always been skeptical about these. Any
mathematical equation only needs one computer, and cannot harness
data from drones.
Why do you think this is the case? Virtually all powerful computers
nowadays work in exactly this manner.
What they CAN do is spam to the n’th degree.
This is certainly true. It would be big news if it actually
happened with one of the science projects.
I decline.
darkmattersfo@comcast.net wrote:
There is a “World Community Grid” reseach project that uses
personal pc’s all over the world to perform computational research
to design new anti-HIV drugs based on molecular structure.
A small applet is loaded onto your PC and runs in the back
ground. As results are produced they are loaded back up to a
research mainframe. By using this type of distributed computing
researchers are able to process large amounts of data in a much
shorter time. This type of computing has been around and has
been/is being used to: Solve complex mathematical problems, seach
for extra-terrestrial live, smallpox research, etc.
There are currently over 100,000 people participating in this
particular project all over the world. The goal is to get 500,000
involved.
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/projects_showcase/viewFaahResear
ch.do
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Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required
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Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail
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From: tink <tinkerbell.sarah@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] happy turkey day from tink
Date: November 24, 2005 at 1:41:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello all, and how do you all do!!
Believe it or not, all is well, and I have been good.  just
sequestered by choice and financial necessity.  I’m working hard and
writing lots, but am not currently online, so I rarely have the
opportunity to access youse guys.
I love you all, and will be online soon…
tink
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: darkmattersfo@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: November 24, 2005 at 1:30:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Brenda, congratulations on making it to this side of the metaphorical river. I read much in your description that I can relate to, especially the more global view and consciousness.
The buzzing you mentioned I experienced as quite unpleasant, kind of like a lawnmower going through my brain, but in the end it was all for the best.
I hope your session will provide you with long term results. I know mine did. I did have a follow up “mini” session and it helped alot as well.
I am glad you are safe and made it through ok.
Mark 🙂
Hello again!
I wanted to share a few highlights of my Ibgaine experience with you,
mostly things I want to keep fresh in my mind.  I am enjoying my cleansed
feeling state so much, I’ll be off the computer for a while 🙂
I ingested 14 (grams?)  whatever the amount is weighed in and I weight
about 120.  My session was intense and difficult for the first ten hours.
I knew my ego was resisting – it did not want to let the feelings that had
been repressed for however long to surface.  Then for 2 hours it was
basically a countdown between ego surrendering first or Iboga coming in
full force.   I started seeing pictures of the Dalai Lama, my BF, Scott,
they were smiling.  Scott eyes were shining bright and they had this
loving, supportive energy that he was beaming down to me.
In one moment, I had to close my eyes and and a bright light flashed like
then a laser beamed down and scanned rings of electro-buzzing energy
scanned my whole body from head to toe.  Then a huge wave of energy rolled
through my body.  Tears started pouring out of my eyes, I would get more
visions of people that I cared about, mostly family, I saw my mother lying
in her bed crying, then I would get smaller waves of emotional release,
then tears, this went on for hours.
Then the deep stuff came.  At this point the little screen projected a
couple feet in front if me and I saw those memories that I had not been
able to make sense of in my life that were trapped inside me.  More waves.
I was totally surrendered.  Scott’s picture was way over to the right, a
lot bigger than the little life pictures screen.
I also was taken to bigger views of the planet and the nature of
consciousness.  The waves got farther in between and then Pure Presence
arose within me and I knew myself as pure Awareness.  I was able to view
my mind…a still lake as clear as glass.  I started dropping little
pebbles and watching the smooth ripples then it would be still and clear
again.  I was aware of my ego to the left of this and everything else
around was Presence.  I started realizing that I was free and I kept
saying it over and over.  Feelings kept coming up and this went on for a
long time.  I saw myself in our garden seeing everything like for the
first time – a flower, my BF, the house and  my cats.  I was in compete
awe of the life-force that animates everything.
I realized that my deep intention was that I wanted to know Truth.  For
me, I believe I have had a glimpse of what I wanted to know.  I feel like
I have emerged at a new level and I can’t wait to see my BF!  I swear I
feel like I am on my way to a honeymoon in my relationship and in my life.
I plan on taking this energy and building a new foundation for my life.
A lot more happened and many synchronicities occurred before and after.  I
wish everyone a great day and Happy Thanksgiving if you are having that –
I will be on an airplane going home.  I want to express my gratitude for
the people that reached out to me and helped me get to this point.
Talk to ya soon,
Brenda 🙂
———————————————————–
WebMail provided by Photon.Net – http://www.photon.net/
Nationwide internet access, thousands of dial-up numbers!
Web hosting, multimedia broadcasting, e-commerce, and more.
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
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 \]=———————————————————————=[/
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 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: November 24, 2005 at 1:20:21 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
beautiful.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: <shakti@photon.net>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Hello again!
I wanted to share a few highlights of my Ibgaine experience with you,
mostly things I want to keep fresh in my mind.  I am enjoying my cleansed
feeling state so much, I’ll be off the computer for a while 🙂
I ingested 14 (grams?)  whatever the amount is weighed in and I weight
about 120.  My session was intense and difficult for the first ten hours.
I knew my ego was resisting – it did not want to let the feelings that had
been repressed for however long to surface.  Then for 2 hours it was
basically a countdown between ego surrendering first or Iboga coming in
full force.   I started seeing pictures of the Dalai Lama, my BF, Scott,
they were smiling.  Scott eyes were shining bright and they had this
loving, supportive energy that he was beaming down to me.
In one moment, I had to close my eyes and and a bright light flashed like
then a laser beamed down and scanned rings of electro-buzzing energy
scanned my whole body from head to toe.  Then a huge wave of energy rolled
through my body.  Tears started pouring out of my eyes, I would get more
visions of people that I cared about, mostly family, I saw my mother lying
in her bed crying, then I would get smaller waves of emotional release,
then tears, this went on for hours.
Then the deep stuff came.  At this point the little screen projected a
couple feet in front if me and I saw those memories that I had not been
able to make sense of in my life that were trapped inside me.  More waves.
I was totally surrendered.  Scott’s picture was way over to the right, a
lot bigger than the little life pictures screen.
I also was taken to bigger views of the planet and the nature of
consciousness.  The waves got farther in between and then Pure Presence
arose within me and I knew myself as pure Awareness.  I was able to view
my mind…a still lake as clear as glass.  I started dropping little
pebbles and watching the smooth ripples then it would be still and clear
again.  I was aware of my ego to the left of this and everything else
around was Presence.  I started realizing that I was free and I kept
saying it over and over.  Feelings kept coming up and this went on for a
long time.  I saw myself in our garden seeing everything like for the
first time – a flower, my BF, the house and  my cats.  I was in compete
awe of the life-force that animates everything.
I realized that my deep intention was that I wanted to know Truth.  For
me, I believe I have had a glimpse of what I wanted to know.  I feel like
I have emerged at a new level and I can’t wait to see my BF!  I swear I
feel like I am on my way to a honeymoon in my relationship and in my life.
I plan on taking this energy and building a new foundation for my life.
A lot more happened and many synchronicities occurred before and after.  I
wish everyone a great day and Happy Thanksgiving if you are having that –
I will be on an airplane going home.  I want to express my gratitude for
the people that reached out to me and helped me get to this point.
Talk to ya soon,
Brenda 🙂
———————————————————–
WebMail provided by Photon.Net – http://www.photon.net/
Nationwide internet access, thousands of dial-up numbers!
Web hosting, multimedia broadcasting, e-commerce, and more.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Date: November 24, 2005 at 1:18:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks Lee, it is, well worth whatever its asking prices. It’s very easy to read, very entertaining AND informative, and will only take you the afternoon to read if you’re anything like me.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
http://cannabisculture.com/articles/3339.html
“Animals and Psychedelics” by Giorgio Samorini
“This new book by Giorgio Samorini, one of the world’s leading experts on the tribal, ritual use of psychedelics, observes the drug habits of dozens of animals, from elephants to goats, and even a few insects. He tells what they get high on, what they do when they’re high, and suggests tantalizing reasons for why they do it.”
Hi Preston,
Verr interesting. I found a link to the book. Its on my list (after 99 other books). Sounds like a good read.
Lee
Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Giorgio Samorini, if memory serves correctly, wrote a brilliant if short
book about all sorts of animals who willfully get high on all sorts of plant
substances- but I can’t remember the title. Google his name and “animals and
drugs” or “animals get high” and see what turns up.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Thought this might be of interest to some:
www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse708.ram
Pot TV – Entheogens 101: Giorgio Samorini 10 min 30 May, 2001 – In a
facinating interview, Reverand Damuzi and guest host Aivia talk with Italian
entheogen researcher and writer Giorgio Samorini about the use of cannabis
and ibogaine for shamanistic purposes amongst certain African tribes. Filmed
at the Entheogen2 Conference by Ci Ci.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 24, 2005 at 1:13:09 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaineI’d always heard alcohol was THE only drug that could literally kill you as a direct result of the withdrawals. I could be mistaken, but I did learn it in a 28-dayw program, and we all know how reliable they are when it comes to addiction and drug use
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Beatrice Blue
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Ok, guys, I may be the grossly uninformed addict mentioned, but I was always under the impression that you could die from opiate withdrawals.  Granted, it would be rare, but it could happen.  When I kicked cold turkey many years ago, my doctor gave my mother a run down on what to look for and a list of possibilities, which definitely included death.  I thought seizures were a big reason for death from withdrawal (but then again I must also admit that Dr. Mash told me opiate addicts don’t ever go into seizures, only convulsions).  Most addicts aren’t very healthy going into withdrawal to begin with.  With all the diareha and vomiting, couldn’t you die from dehydration, or some underlying condition such as heart attacks.  Didn’t Jerry Garcia die this way?  If you can’t die, then why don’t we just give all addicts some Naltrexone/Revia right after their last hit and push them through withdrawal faster?  I realize that some would say that the withdrawal didn’t kill them, the health problem did, but that wouldn’t include seizures or dehydration.
G-d, don’t know how many of you have taken Naltrexone or Revia with even a little bit of dope still in your system, but what an absolutely horrible thought that is…
On 11/23/05 7:18 AM, “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part, “Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds made up to me.
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html <http://www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html> .
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html <http://www.my-eboga.com/network.html> .
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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE: one more little thingydo
Date: November 24, 2005 at 12:30:53 PM EST
To: <anntelope@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Anne
Thanks for your reply.  I still disagree with you on some points, or perhaps
more like opinions, but that’s fine, everyone is entitled to not just their
own opinions, but beliefs as well, which is what opinions are after all.  My
own story is that I took ibogaine 5 times before it worked for me.  I had
short periods of clean time twice and returned to active addiction
immediately twice.  That last time, when it was successful, I was on 74mg of
methadone and was an occasional heroin/cocaine/crack user.
My experience with ibogaine (although I am beginning to see that some people
can react very differently then the norm, just as with other drugs) was that
during it’s strongest effects, in the first 24 hours say, was when the
withdrawal symptoms were least attenuated.  It was only later, after say
36-48 hours that they really tapered off noticeably.  Mind you, that I
always took ibogaine at least 24 hours or so after my last opiate dose, so
24 hours into ibogaine is 48 hours after any opiates.  It was stressed to me
that mixing opiates and ibo could be fatal so I was always conscious about
taking the ibogaine when the opiates were on their way out.
As to what I said about your account seeming made up, that was my
perception.  I don’t think I said you were a liar with any authority because
I can’t know that, I simply suggested that it appeared so from my
perspective.  I gather from your post as well as other responses that your
account was an accurate description from your perspective.  Fair enough.
But one thing that came out loud and clear was an anti-ibogaine agenda.  The
account I read certainly seemed intended to lead people to believe that
ibogaine is not effective to treat drug dependence.  And I was
understandably leery of something that proclaimed so loudly the opposite of
what I know to be true.
As to opiate withdrawal being fatal, my understanding is that it is not.  As
other’s have posted to the list, complications from the symptoms could
conceivably be fatal; but healthy people do not die from opiate withdrawal,
even methadone.  Alcohol withdrawal can be, and sometimes is, fatal.
Cocaine withdrawal can lead to seizures.  So someone who was poly-drug
addicted could have non-opiate related withdrawal symptoms mixed with opiate
withdrawal symptoms and appear to have died from opiate withdrawal.  But I
am not a doctor so I am always ready to entertain the notion that I am
wrong.
Lastly, I am not an ibogaine crusader.  Your analogy about the car does not
work for me because I did not build the ibogaine car, I don’t sell it, and I
don’t encourage people (at least not people who don’t already have an
interest) to drive it.  It was a useful vehicle for me but I am clear that
it is not for everyone and I have no need to defend or promote it.  Like
you, I simply aim to share my experience with it.
I’m glad to know that the account was real, and not made up.  And your
experiences are just as valid as mine and deserve to be heard.  The ibogaine
forum is, to the best of my understanding, about sharing information, both
positive and negative so both types of accounts should be shared and
discussed.
Matt
—–Original Message—–
From: Anntelope [mailto:anntelope@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 9:07 AM
To: matt@itsupport.net; prpeet@nyc.rr.com
Subject: one more little thingydo
The more I read your email, the more I just shake my head.   You didn’t
really get to read an accurate account or something of what went down
because if you had, you’d know I was given a SECOND dose of Ibogaine.
Howard Lotsoff himself gave me a booster dose and I ingested this orally
in a capsule at three oclock the next afternoon.  That was twenty seven
hours approximately after the first dose (I took the first dose via
enema to avoid nauseau – betcha you didn’t know that either lolol).
Then he sat there on the couch and waited with me while it took effect.
As it began to hit me I told Howard I was afraid of it.  He told me I
should be more afraid of the poisons I had been putting in my arm.
It was when the second dose hit me that I finally experienced my
encounter with the Bwiti.
I have been told me people to leave that out – that it destroys my
credibility with people who couldn’t possibly understand such a thing.
Unfortunately, I am obligated to tell the truth and encountering the
Bwiti was perhaps one of the only things that happened as promised.  I
did experience a short interruption in my Heroin and Cocaine use.  For
two weeks I only took Methadone and smoked pot.  But then I slipped back
very easily.
You see – I had been sold Ibogaine as a miracle cure.  I was led to have
perhaps some unrealistic expectations.   I was promised NO withdrawals.
I experienced very bad withdrawals.   I realize now that it was the
Methadone that screwed it all up.  Methadone, bad timing – lack of
experience – lots of things.
And I don’t know where you’ve been but people can die from withdrawals.
Especially back in the days when I first started using.   I watched
someone die right on the couch in Synanon of withdrawals because they
didn’t even have an oxygen mask available just in case.  But the
withdrawals I was concerned about is Methadone withdrawals.   You most
certainly CAN die from that – especially if you have any complications
to deal with like in my own case – a seizure disorder.
I would be happy to send you the things I wrote about my Ibogaine trip
and after reading it  you can ask me ANY questions you wish.  I reported
what happened just like it happened.  I suggest that if you are
sincerely and earnestly involved with Ibogaine or believe in it – you
should want to learn everything you can about what went wrong so as to
prevent it from happening again.
I know if I built a car and thought it was perfect and then someone
discovered a defect – I’d want to know so I could fix it.  Yes?  No?  Yes?
???
all the best
Anne
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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: November 24, 2005 at 11:53:05 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Awesome Brenda.  I don’t mean to make those who haven’t taken it feel apart
from by saying this, but welcome to the club so to speak.  I related to so
much of what you mentioned from my own experiences.  The ego vs ibo thing,
the mind like clear glass feeling, all of the emotional imagery stuff, the
presence of awareness, and the glimpse of ultimate truth are all elements I
have experienced in one way or another in my ibogaine sessions.  I’m glad
you got such good results and look forward to hearing how you do going
forward.
Matt
—–Original Message—–
From: shakti@photon.net [mailto:shakti@photon.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:54 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Hello again!
I wanted to share a few highlights of my Ibgaine experience with you,
mostly things I want to keep fresh in my mind.  I am enjoying my cleansed
feeling state so much, I’ll be off the computer for a while 🙂
I ingested 14 (grams?)  whatever the amount is weighed in and I weight
about 120.  My session was intense and difficult for the first ten hours.
I knew my ego was resisting – it did not want to let the feelings that had
been repressed for however long to surface.  Then for 2 hours it was
basically a countdown between ego surrendering first or Iboga coming in
full force.   I started seeing pictures of the Dalai Lama, my BF, Scott,
they were smiling.  Scott eyes were shining bright and they had this
loving, supportive energy that he was beaming down to me.
In one moment, I had to close my eyes and and a bright light flashed like
then a laser beamed down and scanned rings of electro-buzzing energy
scanned my whole body from head to toe.  Then a huge wave of energy rolled
through my body.  Tears started pouring out of my eyes, I would get more
visions of people that I cared about, mostly family, I saw my mother lying
in her bed crying, then I would get smaller waves of emotional release,
then tears, this went on for hours.
Then the deep stuff came.  At this point the little screen projected a
couple feet in front if me and I saw those memories that I had not been
able to make sense of in my life that were trapped inside me.  More waves.
I was totally surrendered.  Scott’s picture was way over to the right, a
lot bigger than the little life pictures screen.
I also was taken to bigger views of the planet and the nature of
consciousness.  The waves got farther in between and then Pure Presence
arose within me and I knew myself as pure Awareness.  I was able to view
my mind…a still lake as clear as glass.  I started dropping little
pebbles and watching the smooth ripples then it would be still and clear
again.  I was aware of my ego to the left of this and everything else
around was Presence.  I started realizing that I was free and I kept
saying it over and over.  Feelings kept coming up and this went on for a
long time.  I saw myself in our garden seeing everything like for the
first time – a flower, my BF, the house and  my cats.  I was in compete
awe of the life-force that animates everything.
I realized that my deep intention was that I wanted to know Truth.  For
me, I believe I have had a glimpse of what I wanted to know.  I feel like
I have emerged at a new level and I can’t wait to see my BF!  I swear I
feel like I am on my way to a honeymoon in my relationship and in my life.
I plan on taking this energy and building a new foundation for my life.
A lot more happened and many synchronicities occurred before and after.  I
wish everyone a great day and Happy Thanksgiving if you are having that –
I will be on an airplane going home.  I want to express my gratitude for
the people that reached out to me and helped me get to this point.
Talk to ya soon,
Brenda 🙂
———————————————————–
WebMail provided by Photon.Net – http://www.photon.net/
Nationwide internet access, thousands of dial-up numbers!
Web hosting, multimedia broadcasting, e-commerce, and more.
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From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Audio Visual Links
Date: November 24, 2005 at 8:53:56 AM EST
To: Eboga List <eboga@elistas.com>, Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
www.my-eboga.com/audiovisual.html
Just to let you know I sorted out this page (removed a few entries & tickmarked interesting or useful items) and also added some very interesting MP3’s from an ibogaine conference:
“California Society of Addiction Medicine 2003 Conference (MP3):
Recordings of the ibogaine presentations. Presentations include discussion of 2nd generation ibogaine-like drugs, genetic implications and reports on human studies. “
For those new to ibogaine you might find the Ibogaine Story video a good watch.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: shakti@photon.net
Subject: [Ibogaine] On way way home 🙂
Date: November 24, 2005 at 7:53:41 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hello again!
I wanted to share a few highlights of my Ibgaine experience with you,
mostly things I want to keep fresh in my mind.  I am enjoying my cleansed
feeling state so much, I’ll be off the computer for a while 🙂
I ingested 14 (grams?)  whatever the amount is weighed in and I weight
about 120.  My session was intense and difficult for the first ten hours.
I knew my ego was resisting – it did not want to let the feelings that had
been repressed for however long to surface.  Then for 2 hours it was
basically a countdown between ego surrendering first or Iboga coming in
full force.   I started seeing pictures of the Dalai Lama, my BF, Scott,
they were smiling.  Scott eyes were shining bright and they had this
loving, supportive energy that he was beaming down to me.
In one moment, I had to close my eyes and and a bright light flashed like
then a laser beamed down and scanned rings of electro-buzzing energy
scanned my whole body from head to toe.  Then a huge wave of energy rolled
through my body.  Tears started pouring out of my eyes, I would get more
visions of people that I cared about, mostly family, I saw my mother lying
in her bed crying, then I would get smaller waves of emotional release,
then tears, this went on for hours.
Then the deep stuff came.  At this point the little screen projected a
couple feet in front if me and I saw those memories that I had not been
able to make sense of in my life that were trapped inside me.  More waves.
I was totally surrendered.  Scott’s picture was way over to the right, a
lot bigger than the little life pictures screen.
I also was taken to bigger views of the planet and the nature of
consciousness.  The waves got farther in between and then Pure Presence
arose within me and I knew myself as pure Awareness.  I was able to view
my mind…a still lake as clear as glass.  I started dropping little
pebbles and watching the smooth ripples then it would be still and clear
again.  I was aware of my ego to the left of this and everything else
around was Presence.  I started realizing that I was free and I kept
saying it over and over.  Feelings kept coming up and this went on for a
long time.  I saw myself in our garden seeing everything like for the
first time – a flower, my BF, the house and  my cats.  I was in compete
awe of the life-force that animates everything.
I realized that my deep intention was that I wanted to know Truth.  For
me, I believe I have had a glimpse of what I wanted to know.  I feel like
I have emerged at a new level and I can’t wait to see my BF!  I swear I
feel like I am on my way to a honeymoon in my relationship and in my life.
I plan on taking this energy and building a new foundation for my life.
A lot more happened and many synchronicities occurred before and after.  I
wish everyone a great day and Happy Thanksgiving if you are having that –
I will be on an airplane going home.  I want to express my gratitude for
the people that reached out to me and helped me get to this point.
Talk to ya soon,
Brenda 🙂
———————————————————–
WebMail provided by Photon.Net – http://www.photon.net/
Nationwide internet access, thousands of dial-up numbers!
Web hosting, multimedia broadcasting, e-commerce, and more.
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Henk <knehnav@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Date: November 24, 2005 at 5:33:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The book: http://cannabisculture.com/articles/3339.html
Henk
Preston Peet wrote:
Giorgio Samorini, if memory serves correctly, wrote a brilliant if short book about all sorts of animals who willfully get high on all sorts of plant substances- but I can’t remember the title. Google his name and “animals and drugs” or “animals get high” and see what turns up.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Thought this might be of interest to some:
www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse708.ram
Pot TV – Entheogens 101: Giorgio Samorini 10 min 30 May, 2001 – In a facinating interview, Reverand Damuzi and guest host Aivia talk with Italian entheogen researcher and writer Giorgio Samorini about the use of cannabis and ibogaine for shamanistic purposes amongst certain African tribes. Filmed at the Entheogen2 Conference by Ci Ci.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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Om Shanti, Jai Mataji, Jai Gangama.
Lost and Free Enterprises
http://www.xs4all.nl/~knehnav
http://www.geocities.com/knehnav55/
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From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Date: November 24, 2005 at 5:09:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://cannabisculture.com/articles/3339.html
“Animals and Psychedelics” by Giorgio Samorini
“This new book by Giorgio Samorini, one of the world’s leading experts on the tribal, ritual use of psychedelics, observes the drug habits of dozens of animals, from elephants to goats, and even a few insects. He tells what they get high on, what they do when they’re high, and suggests tantalizing reasons for why they do it.”
Hi Preston,
Verr interesting. I found a link to the book. Its on my list (after 99 other books). Sounds like a good read.
Lee
Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Giorgio Samorini, if memory serves correctly, wrote a brilliant if short
book about all sorts of animals who willfully get high on all sorts of plant
substances- but I can’t remember the title. Google his name and “animals and
drugs” or “animals get high” and see what turns up.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations,
Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Thought this might be of interest to some:
www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse708.ram
Pot TV – Entheogens 101: Giorgio Samorini 10 min 30 May, 2001 – In a
facinating interview, Reverand Damuzi and guest host Aivia talk with Italian
entheogen researcher and writer Giorgio Samorini about the use of cannabis
and ibogaine for shamanistic purposes amongst certain African tribes. Filmed
at the Entheogen2 Conference by Ci Ci.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 24, 2005 at 4:15:54 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah, Anne does post every so often on the DrugWar list, and I met her at the pet food store, and I like her a lot, even though she apparently didn’t get on well with others of my friends at some point in the fairly distant past now- and how is not that militantly anti-ibogaine anymore, seemingly, without trying to put words into her mouth, more open to the idea that it may very well work for some but didn’t do the trick with her, just as with any treatment try.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
This also went through this list years ago. The person isn’t made up,
that’s Anne Ardalino, who I don’t think is on this list but posts all
the time to the DrugWar list that Preston runs here. The version on
Heroin Helper is edited and the provider’s names are removed (Howard
Lotsof and Bob Sisko), Dr. Francis Moraes who runs Heroin Helper is on
this list and used to post a lot years ago, I don’t know if he’s in
prison again or what because his site hasn’t been updated in years. The
original version which is a lot more angry and crazed, using Howard and
Sisko’s names is up somewhere on Heroin Times, which also went under or
is in limbo since around the time Heroin Helper stopped adding content.
.:vector:.
— Matthew Shriver <matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the
least
they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own)
but it
seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.
Like
this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick
yet–just
feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor
and I
began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like
idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According
to the
previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first
ibogaine
dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet
they say
later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also
never
heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into
ibogaine
(at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of
opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part,
“Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned
that in
addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly
uninformed
or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think
(and maybe
I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from
opiate
withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just
sounds
made up to me.
 _____
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on
my site.
It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over
a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for
those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
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From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 24, 2005 at 4:08:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In rare cases, there is some risk of death during withdrawal, but usually more directly from some secondary reason, like, as you say, dehydration. Elderly patients and those with advanced stage terminal diseases like cancer and AIDS should probably not try to detox from opiates without medical assistance. But even without medical assistance in such cases, death is uncommon. I don’t think there’ve been any reports, or at least I’ve never read any reports of otherwise “healthy” people dying during opiate withdrawal.
Garcia died of a heart attack while he was in drug rehab… but I think the heart attack was more from years of drug abuse and obesity, rather than anything specific to that particular attempt to get clean.
Ok, guys, I may be the grossly uninformed addict mentioned, but I was always under the impression that you /could/ die from opiate withdrawals.  Granted, it would be rare, but it could happen.  When I kicked cold turkey many years ago, my doctor gave my mother a run down on what to look for and a list of possibilities, which definitely included death.  I thought seizures were a big reason for death from withdrawal (but then again I must also admit that Dr. Mash told me opiate addicts don’t ever go into seizures, only convulsions).  Most addicts aren’t very healthy going into withdrawal to begin with.  With all the diareha and vomiting, couldn’t you die from dehydration, or some underlying condition such as heart attacks.  Didn’t Jerry Garcia die this way?  If you can’t die, then why don’t we just give all addicts some Naltrexone/Revia right after their last hit and push them through withdrawal faster?  I realize that some would say that the withdrawal didn’t kill them, the health problem did, but that wouldn’t include seizures or dehydration.
G-d, don’t know how many of you have taken Naltrexone or Revia with even a little bit of dope still in your system, but what an absolutely horrible thought that is…
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 24, 2005 at 4:04:06 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort)<
The last time I took ibogaine, myself, I was dj’ing right about 40 hours afterwards, having taken a dose as large or slightly larger apparently (though still not large enough I discovered much to my chagrin- and that’s no slight on the person who found it for me, I appreciated having any, at least to begin with), but as the ibogaine wore off completely, I found that only 2 ms-contins a day were still leaving me feeling extremely ill and in withdrawals, even after having just taken ibogaine. This time ‘rouund, without the ibogaine, at right now a week and a half at 2 a day for one week, and 2 and a half a day for 1 of the last three days, and 3 a day for i of those days, and just the two for one of those three days, I’ve found I’m feeling much more able to adjust to the decrease. I don’t know if it’s because I did ibogaine in the past and it’s just now clicking with me that a LOT of my withdrawal symptoms are OFTEN, though certainly not always, as some people here can attest from seeing me in full-on withdrawals, in my head, that panic mode of “oh shit, I’m running low, I’m out of this or that med, oh no, what do I do?” when as someone else suggested (and others too over the years) by finding busy work that doesn’t tax me too physically, I’m able to ward off a lot, though not all but enough, of that icky skin, panic feeling. Of course, the occasional hot bath certainly helps, and the occasional herbal blessing by this or that friend doesn’t hurt either- but I thought I should point out that I was up and on my feet and while not dancing, I was on my feet for hours, even as sick as I felt.
  As well, just my two or three cents, and not offered as an argument or as a “you’re wrong and I’m right” sorta post at all- just posted as a personal observation as to what happened to this one particular person- me.
  Love and thanksgiving no matter your thoughts on the commercialized version,
Peace and yet more love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Matthew Shriver
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part, “Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds made up to me.
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Date: November 24, 2005 at 3:55:19 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Giorgio Samorini, if memory serves correctly, wrote a brilliant if short book about all sorts of animals who willfully get high on all sorts of plant substances- but I can’t remember the title. Google his name and “animals and drugs” or “animals get high” and see what turns up.
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: Lee Albert
To: Ibogaine List
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Thought this might be of interest to some:
www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse708.ram
Pot TV – Entheogens 101: Giorgio Samorini 10 min 30 May, 2001 – In a facinating interview, Reverand Damuzi and guest host Aivia talk with Italian entheogen researcher and writer Giorgio Samorini about the use of cannabis and ibogaine for shamanistic purposes amongst certain African tribes. Filmed at the Entheogen2 Conference by Ci Ci.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: “Poise Consulting Ltd” <caroline@poiseconsulting.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 24, 2005 at 3:34:45 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I read this guys experience and I could relate to part of it… not the celebrating prematurely, then withdrawals kicking  in suddenly… BUT, throughout the 36-48 hours, I had that exact physical pain, throwing myself about, excruciating pain in kidneys etc…
The administrator eventually agreed to take me to hospital and they treated me for high blood pressure and put me on a small methadone dose, which sorted me out. I have spoken to many people and the consensus is that it did not have the usual effect as my body was really unprepared and I was chronically dehydrated. Any thoughts??
began to suffer from muscle spasms–my biggest difficulty with kicking and which usually leads to grand maul convulsions. I was starting to experience these violent and brutal muscle spasms. They literally had me rolling all over the floor. I was involuntarily throwing myself all over the place. I started to grow frightened–more and more frightened by the minute because I didn’t know where this was going to lead.
My supervisor then called for two of his friends to come to the hotel. They turned out to be a nice friendly couple, a man and a woman. The young lady began to administer loving back-rubs to me–but alas, I couldn’t hold still long enough for her to do the job.
At this point, I also began to suffer from bad backaches and my kidneys were on fire.
– | European Recruitment Specialists – |
Caroline Mulliez
Director
Poise Consulting Ltd
Phoenix House
Rectory
Great Paxton
St Neots
Cambridgeshire
PE19 6RZ
caroline@poiseconsulting.com
www.poiseconsulting.com
tel:
mobile:
+44 (0) 1480 214533
+44 (0) 7734 301105
Add me to your address book…
Want a signature like this?
—–Original Message—–
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:37 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
But paying attention precludes being sober, I was always wondering why Matt seemed to be two people, thanx for clearing that up.
Matthew Shriver wrote:
If you pay close attention Don you will see that there are two Matts on the list, at least two who have been posting recently.   And I could always write, which is not to say that Matt Z. couldn’t always write too.  But I got a spill chucker. J
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:33 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Lookie, Matt can WRITE again!!

Matthew Shriver wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part, “Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds made up to me.
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
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From: Beatrice Blue <beatriceblue@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 24, 2005 at 1:33:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ok, guys, I may be the grossly uninformed addict mentioned, but I was always under the impression that you could die from opiate withdrawals.  Granted, it would be rare, but it could happen.  When I kicked cold turkey many years ago, my doctor gave my mother a run down on what to look for and a list of possibilities, which definitely included death.  I thought seizures were a big reason for death from withdrawal (but then again I must also admit that Dr. Mash told me opiate addicts don’t ever go into seizures, only convulsions).  Most addicts aren’t very healthy going into withdrawal to begin with.  With all the diareha and vomiting, couldn’t you die from dehydration, or some underlying condition such as heart attacks.  Didn’t Jerry Garcia die this way?  If you can’t die, then why don’t we just give all addicts some Naltrexone/Revia right after their last hit and push them through withdrawal faster?  I realize that some would say that the withdrawal didn’t kill them, the health problem did, but that wouldn’t include seizures or dehydration.
G-d, don’t know how many of you have taken Naltrexone or Revia with even a little bit of dope still in your system, but what an absolutely horrible thought that is…
On 11/23/05 7:18 AM, “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part, “Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds made up to me.
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine


I saw this:



http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml



Does anyone know anything about this experience? 

If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?



Lee
 

Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html <http://www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html> .

My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html <http://www.my-eboga.com/network.html> .
From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 23, 2005 at 10:37:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
But paying attention precludes being sober, I was always wondering why Matt seemed to be two people, thanx for clearing that up.
Matthew Shriver wrote:
If you pay close attention Don you will see that there are two Matts on the list, at least two who have been posting recently.   And I could always write, which is not to say that Matt Z. couldn’t always write too.  But I got a spill chucker. J
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:33 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Lookie, Matt can WRITE again!!

Matthew Shriver wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part, “Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds made up to me.
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feelings
Date: November 23, 2005 at 10:16:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Randy, I think you are looking too hard! Love is all powerful! You remind me of myself. I have all the love too….have always had it….but I don’t know how to handle it or something. Hell, I feel bad that i have it so good and that I still fuck up! But, you never know what you have until it is gone. Seems like the Ibogaine made you pretty aware of the important shit. Take it and run with it. Maybe you should have another go with the Ibogaine. You have done so well!!
Love you Randy….wish we could meet in the flesh…uuuhhhhh…in person! lol! you know what I mean!
Callie
From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 23, 2005 at 7:54:16 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
If you pay close attention Don you will see that there are two Matts on the list, at least two who have been posting recently.   And I could always write, which is not to say that Matt Z. couldn’t always write too.  But I got a spill chucker. J
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:33 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Lookie, Matt can WRITE again!!

Matthew Shriver wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part, “Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds made up to me.
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 23, 2005 at 6:32:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lookie, Matt can WRITE again!!
Matthew Shriver wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part, “Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds made up to me.
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: World Communit Grid – HIV
Date: November 23, 2005 at 6:28:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Not to be crass, but I have always been skeptical about these. Any mathematical equation only needs one computer, and cannot harness data from drones. What they CAN do is spam to the n’th degree. I decline.
darkmattersfo@comcast.net wrote:
There is a “World Community Grid” reseach project that uses personal pc’s all over the world to perform computational research  to design new anti-HIV drugs based on molecular structure.
A small applet is loaded onto your PC and runs in the back ground. As results are produced they are loaded back up to a research mainframe. By using this type of distributed computing researchers are able to process large amounts of data in a much shorter time. This type of computing has been around and has been/is being used to: Solve complex mathematical problems, seach for extra-terrestrial live, smallpox research, etc.
There are currently over 100,000 people participating in this particular project all over the world. The goal is to get 500,000 involved.
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/projects_showcase/viewFaahResearch.do
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 23, 2005 at 3:23:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This also went through this list years ago. The person isn’t made up,
that’s Anne Ardalino, who I don’t think is on this list but posts all
the time to the DrugWar list that Preston runs here. The version on
Heroin Helper is edited and the provider’s names are removed (Howard
Lotsof and Bob Sisko), Dr. Francis Moraes who runs Heroin Helper is on
this list and used to post a lot years ago, I don’t know if he’s in
prison again or what because his site hasn’t been updated in years. The
original version which is a lot more angry and crazed, using Howard and
Sisko’s names is up somewhere on Heroin Times, which also went under or
is in limbo since around the time Heroin Helper stopped adding content.
.:vector:.
— Matthew Shriver <matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the
least
they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own)
but it
seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.
Like
this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick
yet–just
feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor
and I
began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like
idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According
to the
previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first
ibogaine
dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet
they say
later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also
never
heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into
ibogaine
(at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of
opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part,
“Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned
that in
addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly
uninformed
or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think
(and maybe
I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from
opiate
withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just
sounds
made up to me.
 _____
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on
my site.
It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over
a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for
those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 23, 2005 at 2:32:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I read this one before. Personaly I think it is possible that it could
be true.  Maybe they had a bad experience with a provider and are
angry and feeling they were ripped off.  Perhaps even rising anger
brought up by the ibogaine which they are unaware of fuels this anger
motivating them to knock the ibogaine.   I also think many people can
relapse after ibogaine, even after multiple sessions, due to pain
surfacing.  Life can seem more difficult at times causing relapse.
I don’t really know why would someone make it all up to knock
something they had not experienced.
Luke
On 11/23/05, Matthew Shriver <matt@itsupport.net> wrote:
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least
they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it
seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like
this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just
feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I
began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like
idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the
previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine
dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say
later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never
heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine
(at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of
opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part,
“Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in
addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed
or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe
I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate
withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds
made up to me.
________________________________
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site.
It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six
year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process:
www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual
interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those
already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: darkmattersfo@comcast.net
Subject: [Ibogaine] Off Topic: World Communit Grid – HIV
Date: November 23, 2005 at 10:34:14 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
There is a “World Community Grid” reseach project that uses personal pc’s all over the world to perform computational research  to design new anti-HIV drugs based on molecular structure.
A small applet is loaded onto your PC and runs in the back ground. As results are produced they are loaded back up to a research mainframe. By using this type of distributed computing researchers are able to process large amounts of data in a much shorter time. This type of computing has been around and has been/is being used to: Solve complex mathematical problems, seach for extra-terrestrial live, smallpox research, etc.
There are currently over 100,000 people participating in this particular project all over the world. The goal is to get 500,000 involved.
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/projects_showcase/viewFaahResearch.do
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
 \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 23, 2005 at 10:18:13 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Honestly this thing sounds more than a little made up to me.  At the least they have an anti-ibogaine agenda (which is fine, to each his own) but it seriously looks like there are a number of outright lies in it to.  Like this part, “When the Ibogaine first wore off – I wasn’t sick yet–just feeling kind of normal. At around five in the morning, my supervisor and I began celebrating (prematurely). We were dancing around the room like idiots. I was so happy. I really thought it had worked.”  According to the previous paragraph or two this is like 40 hours after the first ibogaine dose so they should have been well into withdrawal territory, yet they say later the withdrawals all of a sudden came on a little later.  I also never heard of anyone who could dance around the room at 40 hours into ibogaine (at least not without great effort) and when I used it to come off of opiates I felt pretty worn out as the ibo abated.   Then this part, “Remember that I was kicking heroin and methadone so I was concerned that in addition to all the pain, I might die.” Either they are grossly uninformed or they are really just making the whole thing up.  I would think (and maybe I’m wrong) that most opiate addicts know that you can’t die from opiate withdrawal.  There were other points but frankly a lot of it just sounds made up to me.
From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:58 AM
To: Ibogaine List
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Giorgio Samorini Discussing Eboga
Date: November 23, 2005 at 7:54:40 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thought this might be of interest to some:
www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse708.ram
Pot TV – Entheogens 101: Giorgio Samorini 10 min 30 May, 2001 – In a facinating interview, Reverand Damuzi and guest host Aivia talk with Italian entheogen researcher and writer Giorgio Samorini about the use of cannabis and ibogaine for shamanistic purposes amongst certain African tribes. Filmed at the Entheogen2 Conference by Ci Ci.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Feelings
Date: November 23, 2005 at 6:09:52 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
AHHHHHHHHH IF I HEAR THAT SONG AGAIN I GONNA SMASH THE RADIO!!!
HJAHAHAHAHA
          Sorry the station over here plays it very five damn minutes!!
Ok now I read the rest of your email
Heheeehhehe
Sorry….
Hurrrr hummm
k
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com [mailto:BiscuitBoy714@aol.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 6:06 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com; drugwar@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feelings
I was riding down the rode tonight and that song by Nickel Back came on…………..Look at this photagraph ………..Every time I do it makes me laugh…………………you know the one. When he got to the part where he said “It’s time to say it” “it’s time to say it good bye Good bye……………..I burst into tears. This aint a great song or anything I think it’s drop D and it kinda grinds and the bass part is pretty cool……………but I’m not trying to crtique here, I guess what I’m sayin’ is I can’t do that……………..say goodbye……………….I can’t let go of the past. I still love my ex wife even tho she is an evil fu………….never mind. I still have all my friends from school on my side, I still have the admeration of alllllllllllll my lovers, wait……..did I spell that right?…………OK One girl is still pissed but that is another story……………….my brothers still love me even tho I put them thru hell…………..my mother is right with me on the Ibogaine thing, my son is as smart as I could ever hope for……….he smokes wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to much po…….. I can’t say that, but he is so cool he doesn’t even know it. I guess what I mean is I have sooo many things from my past that are cool (I aint even gonna tell ya about the gigs I’ve done) that I can’t assertain the good from the bad. ” So what does a poor boy do ‘cept for play in a rock roll band cause in sleepy London town there’s just no place for a street fightin’ mannnnnnnnnnnn no” Damn it I can’t keep the music outta my head. You would think that Ibogaine would have  delved on these things……. it didn’t happen that way for me. I was on Methadone and I took my test dose on Tuesday It took a shit load of HCL  to cut thru and that is defenitly another story,,,the next thing I knew it was Saturday and I wasn’t addicted anymore. I tripped hard for about 3 days. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen or done……….fuck I have no spell ckecjer…………….anyway I saw all these things from my past and none of them were the scary shit I expected……….it was……………………love. That’s how it felt……love. Some of you have heard my story, my son was with me the whole time and he had a halo on his head, my brothers looked at me and nodded their head in ageement that I was doing the right thing, I took a space ship ride and I wasn’t drivin’ the space ship……………….how do they get that much power from the small reactor that was on the ship? I saw the Africans and the were all smiling at me………….I could go on for a long time about my trip but suffice to say it changed me forever. I didn’t see the guy I shot, I didn’t see the violence that used to rule my life, I didn’t see any of that. Why is that? Maybe the Bwiti in their ultimate wisdom didn’t think I was ready to deal with all that shit. I guess I need to do about 20 mgs per kg and go back………or is it forward? I was an evil son of a bitch in my addiction. I guess I need to talk to my provider………….which one? and go for it again. These guys are soooooooooooooooooooooo fucking cool. When you look ’em in the eye you can just tell they love you………….they don’t even have to know anything about your past they just love you. No questions asked, they just love ya. Ibogaine is about love, I don’t give a fuck if you shot Kennedy they love ya anyway. By the way way I have an opinion about what happened in Dallas that day,,,,,,,,,,,I better shut up here or I’ll have to shoot some other mother fuck………….Damn, see? ……………but I’m into guns and am very up on ballistics and a bullet traveling about 2800 feet per secound……….it was a 6.5 caliber Caranco .or any bullet for that matter will not blow a brain backwards, it takes a frontal shot to do what happened to him, you’ve seen the film……..remeber how his head blew backwards? I can guess but we will never know what happened for sure but the Magruder film says it all. He was shot from the front. I’d say it was a 3006 traveling about 3000 feet per secound,,,,,,, about a 150 grain bullet, do the math. See? I’m so fucked up in the head about my past. All those nukes…………..let me tell ya about nuclear warfare…………………better not. When I saw the towers fall I was expecting to see a nuclear stike somewhere in the US. I went out and bought 20 40 mg oxy’s and that didn’t make me feel any better so I went to Buffaloe and bought 3 bundles. I shot it all in about 3 days. I wish I could quit thinking about these things but I can’t. I’m clean(whatever that means) and I’m still contemplating what happened 30 years ago. Maybe I should call Patrick and we can discuss nuclear fussion…………..What a minute……….my father in law (who I love dearly) has a brother who was in on the Manhaten project this dude was Oppenheimers buddy) lets ask him………….Naaaaaaaaa they will take the secret to the grave. I’m sooooooooo fucked up but I admit it. See where my head goes? I’m just writing here, don’t take this seriously or anything……….It’s just how I feel at the time. Kill me if you don’t like it or take that dull ass needle and sharpen it up on a match book cover  and stick it up your…………………………..I’m so sick but Ibogaine told me to look out for the things that fuck you up in life. That’s why I am writing this.           Thanks for listening. I love you all…………………You can’t make not love you               Randy
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Debunking ibogaine
Date: November 23, 2005 at 5:58:20 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I saw this:
http://www.heroinhelper.com/angry/ibogaine_experience.shtml
Does anyone know anything about this experience?
If they do you can post me off list. I am thinking of posting it on my site. It might be good to have a debunking section?
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Feelings
Date: November 23, 2005 at 12:06:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I was riding down the rode tonight and that song by Nickel Back came on…………..Look at this photagraph ………..Every time I do it makes me laugh…………………you know the one. When he got to the part where he said “It’s time to say it” “it’s time to say it good bye Good bye……………..I burst into tears. This aint a great song or anything I think it’s drop D and it kinda grinds and the bass part is pretty cool……………but I’m not trying to crtique here, I guess what I’m sayin’ is I can’t do that……………..say goodbye……………….I can’t let go of the past. I still love my ex wife even tho she is an evil fu………….never mind. I still have all my friends from school on my side, I still have the admeration of alllllllllllll my lovers, wait……..did I spell that right?…………OK One girl is still pissed but that is another story……………….my brothers still love me even tho I put them thru hell…………..my mother is right with me on the Ibogaine thing, my son is as smart as I could ever hope for……….he smokes wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to much po…….. I can’t say that, but he is so cool he doesn’t even know it. I guess what I mean is I have sooo many things from my past that are cool (I aint even gonna tell ya about the gigs I’ve done) that I can’t assertain the good from the bad. ” So what does a poor boy do ‘cept for play in a rock roll band cause in sleepy London town there’s just no place for a street fightin’ mannnnnnnnnnnn no” Damn it I can’t keep the music outta my head. You would think that Ibogaine would have  delved on these things……. it didn’t happen that way for me. I was on Methadone and I took my test dose on Tuesday It took a shit load of HCL  to cut thru and that is defenitly another story,,,the next thing I knew it was Saturday and I wasn’t addicted anymore. I tripped hard for about 3 days. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen or done……….fuck I have no spell ckecjer…………….anyway I saw all these things from my past and none of them were the scary shit I expected……….it was……………………love. That’s how it felt……love. Some of you have heard my story, my son was with me the whole time and he had a halo on his head, my brothers looked at me and nodded their head in ageement that I was doing the right thing, I took a space ship ride and I wasn’t drivin’ the space ship……………….how do they get that much power from the small reactor that was on the ship? I saw the Africans and the were all smiling at me………….I could go on for a long time about my trip but suffice to say it changed me forever. I didn’t see the guy I shot, I didn’t see the violence that used to rule my life, I didn’t see any of that. Why is that? Maybe the Bwiti in their ultimate wisdom didn’t think I was ready to deal with all that shit. I guess I need to do about 20 mgs per kg and go back………or is it forward? I was an evil son of a bitch in my addiction. I guess I need to talk to my provider………….which one? and go for it again. These guys are soooooooooooooooooooooo fucking cool. When you look ’em in the eye you can just tell they love you………….they don’t even have to know anything about your past they just love you. No questions asked, they just love ya. Ibogaine is about love, I don’t give a fuck if you shot Kennedy they love ya anyway. By the way way I have an opinion about what happened in Dallas that day,,,,,,,,,,,I better shut up here or I’ll have to shoot some other mother fuck………….Damn, see? ……………but I’m into guns and am very up on ballistics and a bullet traveling about 2800 feet per secound……….it was a 6.5 caliber Caranco .or any bullet for that matter will not blow a brain backwards, it takes a frontal shot to do what happened to him, you’ve seen the film……..remeber how his head blew backwards? I can guess but we will never know what happened for sure but the Magruder film says it all. He was shot from the front. I’d say it was a 3006 traveling about 3000 feet per secound,,,,,,, about a 150 grain bullet, do the math. See? I’m so fucked up in the head about my past. All those nukes…………..let me tell ya about nuclear warfare…………………better not. When I saw the towers fall I was expecting to see a nuclear stike somewhere in the US. I went out and bought 20 40 mg oxy’s and that didn’t make me feel any better so I went to Buffaloe and bought 3 bundles. I shot it all in about 3 days. I wish I could quit thinking about these things but I can’t. I’m clean(whatever that means) and I’m still contemplating what happened 30 years ago. Maybe I should call Patrick and we can discuss nuclear fussion…………..What a minute……….my father in law (who I love dearly) has a brother who was in on the Manhaten project this dude was Oppenheimers buddy) lets ask him………….Naaaaaaaaa they will take the secret to the grave. I’m sooooooooo fucked up but I admit it. See where my head goes? I’m just writing here, don’t take this seriously or anything……….It’s just how I feel at the time. Kill me if you don’t like it or take that dull ass needle and sharpen it up on a match book cover  and stick it up your…………………………..I’m so sick but Ibogaine told me to look out for the things that fuck you up in life. That’s why I am writing this.           Thanks for listening. I love you all…………………You can’t make not love you               Randy
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Don’t read this unless you like crop circles
Date: November 22, 2005 at 8:15:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Randy……….lmao! I just don’t know what to say! I sure wish I was with you though!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
Callie
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Don’t read this unless you like crop circles
Date: November 22, 2005 at 4:52:48 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
OK, I’m fried and I want to write. Hash oil is a hella of thing. I was in …………you name the place and I woke up in the middle of a corn field. THEN the thought occured to me that we need to make a crop circle. Where in the fuck am I? Who cares? Lets make a crop circle. I wanted to draw a real pretty picture, but I just didn’t know how, I aint an artist. But I couldn’t get it outta my head. What is a poor boy to do? Sooooooooooooooooo I forced my friends into pulling the car over. With a vengence. They had no choice. I can be real addimit (did I spell that right?) when I want to. I get outta the car and I’m looking for a board to make the circle with. Fuck it, lets use my Thin Line. …………………..NAAAAAAAAAAAA I can’t use my ax, lets think of something else. SOOO I find a stick………..a tobbaco stick. I gues that is what it was. So I start to stompin”. Have you ever tried to make a crop circle? It aint easy. I stomped my ass off. It still didn’t look right. We need a copter I said. So we stold one. It still didn’t look rigtht from the air. FUCK…………………now what? That’s when I saw the dragon. It had green eyes and fire was coming outta his mouth. It was screaming I’m cummin’ for ya. When I pulled my pistal out the dragaon just laughed. Whatcha gonna do with that? Give me all you got. It scared the shit outta me. I had a 40 Smith and Wesson and I was still out gunned. Then the dragon landed and told me to be cool. So I did. It told me that I was never gonna be bad enough to keep the devil off of me. It takes a simple mind and real love to get along. Sooooooooo I love you all.     You can’t stop me.   Randy
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]Don’t read this
Date: November 22, 2005 at 3:48:46 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Let me tell ya a story. My buddy whoever was supposed to show up with some heroin. It didn’t happen…………………..but he did show up with the best LSD I have ever done. Windowpain………………….Gold, Clear, and so awsome I can hardly describe it. I was so pissed off that he didn’t have what I wanted that I was ready to kick his ass. Then the LSD kicked in. I still can feel the effects. He had a piece of it in his eye. He showed me. I guess that is why he doesn’t have a broken leg. I had to respect that. When I felt what was going to happen I just shuddered and took a deep breath and let it happen. It was allmost as intense as Ibogaine. Allmost. My girlfriend was there and thank God she was. I still love her. I guess she is with God.. She was killed in a car wreck about 20 years ago. I still cry about her. I could feel it coming on and it scared me. I knew it was going to be a hell of a trip. I saw Benjimen Franklin. Aint he cool? He told me a lot of things about life. Maybe that is why I’m still alive. He told me that life is a mission and that we are here to learn. Ben is the smatest guy I ever had a conversation with. And I did have a conversation with him. He is not afraid of anything. Nothing makes him nervous. He knew about smokeless powder way before it came into play. I payed attention when he talked. The intensity of the LSD allmost overwhelmed me. But when he was talking I was right there with him. He didn’t say shit about the kite. That is too obvious. He did talk about my mother and how smart she is. She saved my life. I didn’t get to talk to him about the glass flute that he came up with. I guess he didn’t think it was that important. I saw him, I aint shittin’ ya, Me and Ben? we be brothers.               Randy
From: jamilah@erols.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Error
Date: November 21, 2005 at 8:09:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The message cannot be represented in 7-bit ASCII encoding and has been sent as a binary attachment.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Fw: DBMAIL: delivery failure
Date: November 21, 2005 at 5:57:17 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Unfortunately, that is Kirk’s email, I believe, someone who was originally on the ibogaine list, and now I believe is also subscribed to the DrugWar.com list. If the constant “Mailbox is full” messages bother you, please either delete them or set your mail to eject them to your deleted box automatically, as Kirk doesn’t seem to be able to get the internet service to do anything about those messages.
  I apologize to the group as a whole, as they do get a little frustrating, but hitting delete is a fairly simple, easy to manage sport, so I hope you all manage to work around these incessent messages. I don’t think Patrick can do much about it though, and poor Kirk has gone through hell trying to get these messages to stop.
Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —– From: SherriTheWriter@aol.com
To: drugwar@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DrugWar] Fw: DBMAIL: delivery failure
En un mensaje con fecha 11/21/2005 4:33:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com escribe:
BTW, I’m getting a copy of this sent to my inbox with every post I send to
drugwar. I just thought Patrick, or somebody, might want to know. I know my
posts are getting there b/c people are responding, but these messages make
it look like something’s up with the servers. No problem here, I just delete
them, but someone up there just might want to be informed.
I get them too, seems to be an announcement that someone’s e-mail in-box is full.
Sharon Secor, Freelance Writer
Secor’s Writing Service
http://www.sharonsecor.rr.nu
Guest Editor, Strike The Root, A Journal of Liberty
http://strike-the-root.com
Practicing Resistance and Raising Revolutionaries
http://sharonsecor.blogspot.com
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From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine]test     test      test
Date: November 21, 2005 at 10:24:48 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston
I quit smoking after 17 years using wellbutrin and the patch.  I also chewed
gum (not the nicotine kind) in all those situations where I would have
smoked (like driving, after a meal, etc…)  But even doing all that, I had
to try three times within about 9 months for it to stick.  I kept thinking I
could practice controlled smoking after I had quit.  Like once I said to
myself, “I’ll only smoke with my morning cup of coffee.”  Yeah right.  But
nowdays, I can smell if someone in the next car is smoking at the stop
light.  I can’t believe how much it stinks to me now.  It is literally a
surprise to me from time to time to realize how much it smells and to
realize how much it must have affected non-smokers around me when I did
smoke.  I strongly encourage you to give it a go, and if needed, give it two
or three goes.  It’s totally do-able.  Good luck.
As to the other topic you mentioned, just being in NA doesn’t preclude me
from knowing and caring about what you are going through.  When I hear
people talk about that, I remember all too well what being dope sick was
like and what a monumental undertaking it was to try and “get by” with too
little opiate.  Uggg, I don’t envy you a bit, but I support your effort to
change your situation.
Matt
—–Original Message—–
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 9:44 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine]test test test
you passed this test with flying colors…I take it it was multiple choice?
;-))
Please all think strong, positive thoughts for me as I go see my doc
tomorrow, for strength of will and dedication to my choice of new paths. I
realize that your thinking good thoughts really in the end doesn’t do much
concrete to help me in my decision making, but it’s nice to know that there
are others out there in a non-NA/AA/etcA setting that care and know what I’m
going through, and how freakin’ difficult it can get at times- the mental
battles are as bad at times as the physical pains AND withdrawal problems.
   So my point is, you none of you have to respond- just think for me in
positive ways for a few more days at least, that I remain true to myself, to
what I think I really do want more than not.
Then of course, there’s that other horrific addiction I am dealing with –
tobacoo. The tobacco does more damage to me physically than any opiate use
does, but it’s not so socially unacceptable. The irony. V hate the smell of
my smoking, particularly after I’ve been smoking all day, or when I get up
very early, go to the rest room and have a smoke then come back to bed
reeking of cigarettes- and I hate the reaction from her, which leaves me
feeling like dirt aband full of guilt for subjecting her to the stench
non-stop- at least I’m smoking outside the apartment or in the bathroom only
now, and this is a new thing as of a couple months ago. But I need to stop
completely. I’ve been taking Wellbutron for three weeks now- so I should be
able to set a date now to quit, right? I also have two boxes of patches left
from what the city of NY sent me a few months ago when I called their
stop-smoking phone line. I may try to use those for a few days to help, to
see what happens. I just dread putting on a patch, then deciding I rEALLY
need a smoke, and then have to take it off, wasting the patch just so I can
have one smoke that doesn’t get me high, clogs up my lungs, and slows down
my circulation, not to mention makes me smell and feel unhealthy.
   I’m ranting ’cause I’m nervous about tomrorrow.
Good night and sweet dreams all.
Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]test test test
test          ests          stet
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From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ot) Herbal Course
Date: November 21, 2005 at 7:00:30 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
Just wanted to ask if anyone knows of a good online herbology course which does not require attendence or at the very least attendance somewhere in Europe? Something along the lines of 6/9 months or a year.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine]test     test      test – Smoking/ibo
Date: November 21, 2005 at 6:55:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Preston,
I am keeping you in my thoughts.
This thing about tobacco. For what its worth i don’t think that ibo works as well for tobacco as it does for opiates. It will kill the wd from nicotine but you still have to be on guard against the cravings. I know you are not doing ibo but I thought I might just mention it. There is so much else going on with smoking.
Clearly ibo is much better with opiates it would seem.
It is said that nicotine is the hardest drug to kick. I find that when I relapse I have to smoke all this other shit just to get the nicotine high and then after a while you dont notice the other shit but you do feel like shit with all that crap going into you.
Smoking is amazingly bad and it seems that in Spain its a national institution.
The problem with smoking is when you get older it catches up on you and you have to pay the piper!
Sending pos. vibes………
Lee
Preston Peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
you passed this test with flying colors…I take it it was multiple choice?
;-))
Please all think strong, positive thoughts for me as I go see my doc
tomorrow, for strength of will and dedication to my choice of new paths. I
realize that your thinking good thoughts really in the end doesn’t do much
concrete to help me in my decision making, but it’s nice to know that there
are others out there in a non-NA/AA/etcA setting that care and know what I’m
going through, and how freakin’ difficult it can get at times- the mental
battles are as bad at times as the physical pains AND withdrawal problems.
So my point is, you none of you have to respond- just think for me in
positive ways for a few more days at least, that I remain true to myself, to
what I think I really do want more than not.
Then of course, there’s that other horrific addiction I am dealing with –
tobacoo. The tobacco does more damage to me physically than any opiate use
does, but it’s not so socially unacceptable. The irony. V hate the smell of
my smoking, particularly after I’ve been smoking all day, or when I get up
very early, go to the rest room and have a smoke then come back to bed
reeking of cigarettes- and I hate the reaction from her, which leaves me
feeling like dirt aband full of guilt for subjecting her to the stench
non-stop- at least I’m smoking outside the apartment or in the bathroom only
now, and this is a new thing as of a couple months ago. But I need to stop
completely. I’ve been taking Wellbutron for three weeks now- so I should be
able to set a date now to quit, right? I also have two boxes of patches left
from what the city of NY sent me a few months ago when I called their
stop-smoking phone line. I may try to use those for a few days to help, to
see what happens. I just dread putting on a patch, then deciding I rEALLY
need a smoke, and then have to take it off, wasting the patch just so I can
have one smoke that doesn’t get me high, clogs up my lungs, and slows down
my circulation, not to mention makes me smell and feel unhealthy.
I’m ranting ’cause I’m nervous about tomrorrow.
Good night and sweet dreams all.
Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]test test test
test ests stet
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “E.Claudia” <ecbl@cox.net>
Subject: [Ibogaine] RE: Neurotransmitters depletion / aminoacid therapy under doctor supervision
Date: November 21, 2005 at 3:06:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Guys,
Please  read Dr Kaslow article about neurotransmitters depletion and the neuroresearch web site. I started my had treatment with amionoacids  4 years ago because of my hormonal dysfunction. and it worked for me, changed my life. Because I could not  tolerated zolof, paxil & prozac. I felt that I was a time bomb ready to explode. I was taking  anti depresants when I had a HMO insurance. I decided to go out of the network I followed my intuition. I went to see a doctor that prescribe the  Neuroresearch products ( neuroreplete that has vitamin C, B6, folate, lL-Lysine, 5HTP, Ltyrosine & Cyreplete that has selenium, folate, L-cysteine, combined with b complex shots, minerals, omega 3, 9 and yoga, swiming, jacuzzi etc. A natural way to re-build your self. It takes work and determination. It is like any health problem like abesity, or addictions there is not cure but you can control the problem with changing the way we live.
See doctors Kaslow and Volpe articles about neurotransmitters depletion. You have to be under the supervision of a doctor if your condition is delicate. You are dealing with chemistry of the brain.  The third link is neuroresearch the company that produce the aminoacids. I beleive this is the way to get control of yourself and be in harmony.
God bless you all!
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/neurotransmitter_depletion.html
http://www.doctorvolpe.com/anxiety.html
http://neuroassist.com/Seminarbibliography1/
http://neuroassist.com/disease.htm
HOW SSRI’S DEPLETE NEUROTRANSMITTER LEVELS
Martin Hinz, MD is a leading clinician in neurotransmitters deficiency and weight loss management. For several years he has been saying, “drugs that work with neurotransmitters do not work if there is not enough neurotransmitters to work with”. When the first journal article on the subject published by Delgado from the University of Arizona stated, “NE-selective antidepressant drugs appear to be primarily dependent on the availability of NE for their effects. Likewise, 5-HT-selective antidepressants appear to be primarily dependent on the availability of 5-HT for their effects.” NE” is short for norepinephrine and “5-HT” is short for 5-hydroxytryptophan, which is better known as serotonin. This study verified what Dr. Hinz had been saying, “drugs that work with neurotransmitters do not work if there are not enough neurotransmitters to work with.”
It has been observed that the “clinical response with regards to neurotransmitter levels is like a light switch; it is either on or off”.  If you keep this in mind you will be able to understand neurotransmitter depletion by the drugs that are supposed to be correcting the problem (SSRIs like Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa, Effexor, Luvox, Sarafem, etc.; SNRIs like Effexor).  Some medications actually increase the excretion of neurotransmitters.  Paxil is among the worst at wasting neurotransmitters.
THE PATHWAY TO SSRI DEPLETION:
1. REDISTRIBUTION: SSRI medications work by redistributing neurotransmitters from one place to another in the brain. In the process the brain is tricked into thinking there is more serotonin when in fact there is not one additional molecule of serotonin formed by the process. All that has occurred is the intersynaptic levels of serotonin are increased. Synapses are the connections between nerves. For discussion sake, one end of the nerve sends a message and one end of a nerve receives a message. The region that these nerve endings is a bulb-like region that is the site of serotonin release from one nerve as it passes information (the chemical message in the form of serotonin) to the site of serotonin uptake on the next nerve. Increasing the level of serotonin in these synapses is how SSRI medications have their effect – they inhibit the sending nerve from taking back up (or “re-uptaking”) the serotonin.
2. DEPLETION FROM INADEQUATE NUTRITION: In Dr. Hinz’ work with amino acids, he has come to believe and appreciate that inadequate levels of serotonin and norepinephrine precursors in the diet are the number one cause of neurotransmitter depletion. Many of my patients have had the levels of the two most common neurotransmitters, norepinephrine and serotonin, monitored in a special urine analysis for many years. In fact, a recently added in-office questionnaire may help identify those individuals who may have imbalances in other neurotransmitters like histamine.
3. DEPLETION WITH SSRI MEDICATIONS (the theory we are working under now): As the level of intersynaptic neurotransmitters increase, the Monoamine Oxidase (MAO) system is stimulated and increases the breakdown of neurotransmitters. If you do not increase the nutritional intake of serotonin and norepinephrine precursors in patients that are being treated with antidepressants, the net effect is further depletion over time. More and more medication is required with greater and greater depletion leading to a vicious cycle of progressively more medication need with less and less effect.
Practicing physicians have all too often seen the following scenario. A patient presents with depression and is started on Zoloft, for example. After 2 weeks of treatment the patient reports that the depression is improved, but 9 months later the patient literally wakes up one day, and from the patient’s perspective the Zoloft, is no longer working because the depression has returned. The patient tries to quit the Zoloft and finds that he/she feels worse than ever. What has happened is as predicted by the above.
This is the exact way we have been explaining it to patients based on the above hypothesis. Because of a nutritional deficiency, the patient’s neurotransmitter levels dropped below the level needed to keep him/her disease free and depression developed. When the patient took the Zoloft, only the intersynaptic levels of serotonin increased above the level to be disease free. In the following months while on Zoloft, the MAO system increased the breakdown of serotonin and with no additional nutritional intake of serotonin precursors, the intersynaptic levels of neurotransmitters decline. When they fell below the level needed to keep the patient disease free, the depression returns.
Every MD has seen numerous patients who were on antidepressants (SSRIs) that seemed to quit working. When the proper amino acids that are the building blocks of neurotransmitters are provided, the benefits of the medications resume within one to two weeks.
My goal is to provide the most effective nutritional support so that your SSRI will be effective for the longest duration necessary or to replace the need for SSRI by improving the overall level of serotonin or other neurotransmitter without drugs. It is noteworthy that the largest producer of serotonin in the body is not the brain, but rather the gastrointestinal tract. A healthy colon does more than provide adequate digestion!
Depletion of the neurotransmitters may be only part of the story.  Some of the medications seem to be causing damage to the nerves as well.  This has been shown with several weight loss medications (amphetamines) actually cause long term damage to the nerves and this is why the medications have less and less of an effect with each course of usage.  This may explain why the government has taken the amphetamines, Dexatrim  and phenylpropanolamine, off the market.
Caffeine, ephedrine, ephedra, and other stimulants (herbal or otherwise) also promote the depletion of neurotransmitters.
From: Carol Ann [mailto:saffireskyes@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 12:43 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane- Serotonin – Antidepressants
What the articles, from my interpretation,  are in part trying to convey is that since the advent of modern Psychiatry, the availability and  prolific use of pharmaceuticals, nice, neat blanket labels have been given  to most, if not the majority of perceived or diagnosed mental disorders, which may not even exist. And as the article indicates,  they may be at best circumstantial.  Begs the question…Who does the diagnosis the diagnose rs?

Did modern psychiatry create a need, a market. Definitely.  Before such an industry existed, and yes, it is a rapidly growing industry,  what appeared as abhorrent, socially unacceptable mental behavior was often attributed to possession.  Such theories were laughed out of the industry as being draconian and superstitious. Modern “Psychiatrists” are in actuality taking the  place of Witch Doctors and Shamans but are to ashamed to acknowledge the role. Doesn’t sound very prestigious, does it. 

The thrust of this forum is focused upon spiritual healing through the use of ethnogens which calls for a tremendous amount of subjectivity and interpretation. The individual experience is given priority and most importantly, empowerment through “self” analysis. 

 The primary use of these types of drugs (Ibo) cause phenomenological amplification towards the symbolism of what is observed. Empirical medicine is  more concerned with pathology, the restoration of technical functioning which is barely understood.  While legally prescribed Rx’s like Zoloft, Prozac, Ritalin, Paxol,  etc. fall within the same category, possibly acting more familiar transmitters……… 

”The relapse rate for  patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior  psychotherapy.”

I know people, as I am sure you do, that have been taking sanctioned drugs for as long as 20 years with no signs of any serious or significant improvement other than the day to day management of the imbalances so that they can function, often marginally.


Fact is TPTB will never make a case for drugs such as Ibo, Amanita Muscaria, Salvia, etc. .  To do so would rattle profits, marginalize a growing industry, and most importantly, lead to personal empowerment. 

Jon, conclusions cannot be made within various related medical Establishment. Its rather refreshing to see the more conscientious minded and perhaps more ethical   begin to strike out and question their own pseudo-scientific data and treatment  modalities. 

Regards,
Carol Ann


jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:

Well, I think it’s clear that the biological basis of depression is more 
complicated than just having low levels of serotonin. Some people with 
depression repsond well to SSRIs, some respond well to SNRIs, some 
respond well to SARIs, some respond well to NaSSAs, etc. Clearly, there 
are multiple neurotransmitter systems involved and there may very well 
be as-of-yet undiscovered neurotransmitters involved as well.

But to conclude that mental disorders are NOT related to chemical 
imbalances AT ALL is to throw the baby out with the bath water. 
Furthermore, it just doesn’t make logical sense… “normal” mood states 
are a result of chemcial interactions in the brain, so “abnormal” mood 
states must also be the result of chemical interactions in the brain; 
presumably of “abnormal” chemical interactions. Such a hypothesis is 
further supported by the fact that mental illness can be induced by 
introducing certain chemicals to the brain.

I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the chemical imbalances 
responsible for mental illness are more complex than we are currently 
aware of, but to conclude that mental illness is NOT a result of 
chemical imbalance is a logical fallacy.

> > An M.D. in Duluth runs a non-prescription-drug Mental Health Clinic, and
> > uses 5HTP on almost all of his patients who show depression, insomnia,
> > etc. He swears by it. I’ve been using it just to help maintain my
> > sleep, as it is breaking up due to my age (72 y.o.). Certainly seems
> > harmless and may be doing some good. No side effects, but at least I
> > have the assurance that my body can maybe make the serotonin it needs.
> > The psychiatric antidepressant drugs DON’T MAKE serotonin, they just
> > unbalance the body’s destruction of serotonin, and in doing so are
> > Habit-Forming, leading to “withdrawal symptoms” when the
> > anti-depressants are stopped. Anybody coming off SSRIs should use
> > this! Good luck. Dr. Ed
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Opinion – Vera Hassner Sharav
> 2. THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and SCIENCE JOURNAL
> ___________________________________________________________________________
> 
> ALLIANCE FOR HUMAN RESEARCH PROTECTION (AHRP)
> Promoting Openness, Full Disclosure, and Accountability www.ahrp.org
> 
> One after another of psychiatry’s theoretical constructs and therapeutic 
> armamentarium have been knocked down and relegated to the dust-heap of 
> pseudo-scientific history. None of psychiatry’s claims have withstood 
> the test of scientific scrutiny. The very core upon which psychiatry’s 
> practice guidelines are based–using drugs to restore a “chemical 
> imbalance” in the brain– has been shown to be nothing but 
> unsubstantiated speculation.
> 
> Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo, Ph.D., the authors of “Serotonin and 
> depression: A disconnect between the advertisements and the scientific 
> literature,” published in PLoS Medicine, have delivered a decisive blow 
> to psychiatry’s unubstantiated claim about a “chemical imbalance” in the 
> brain of people who suffer from depression –or other psychological / 
> emotional ailments.
> 
> The article, by a professor of anatomy and a doctoral student, is 
> receiving wide attention both in the general and medical news 
> media–Nature, WebMD, Medscape, UPI, New Scientist, the Wall Street Journal.
> 
> When confronted with evidence refuting this mantra of biological 
> psychiatry, Wayne Goodman, chair of the FDA’s psychopharmacologic 
> advisory committee admited in The New Scientist, that the “chemical 
> imbalance” story is but a “useful metaphor.”
> 
> WSJ health columnist, Sharon Begley, points out that “For many, SSRIs 
> help little, if at all. To do better, we have to get the science right.”
> 
> But instead of science, the public and health care professionals have 
> been fed a bill of goods:
> “Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil ads and glowing accounts in the press have 
> turned patients with depression into veritable pharmacologists, able to 
> rattle off” the serotonin chemical imbalance script they have been fed 
> by SSRI drug manufacturers and the psychiatric establishment. But 
> Lacasse and Leo found that: “Not a single peer-reviewed article … 
> support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder.”
> 
> “Low serotonin levels no more cause depression than low aspirin levels 
> cause headache.
> Yet, not only company advertisements but leading psychiatrists have 
> deluded the public for decades with such false claims:
> 
> To cite but two examples:
> NYU Child Study Center website assures families:
> “Our faculty and staff have special expertise in dealing with all 
> aspects of Depressive Disorders.” Then proceeds to state: “Depression 
> is most likely due to an inherited predisposition to a chemical 
> imbalance in the brain.”
> See: http://aboutourkids.org/aboutour/disorders/depressive.html
> Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons Kreichman PET 
> Center lists two courses offered by John Mann, MD.
> 
> “4294 PET Mapping of Serotonin Transporters …Find out if / what 
> changes in brain chemistry can cause an episode of depression. 
> Serotonin is an important chemical in the brain and deficiency of 
> serotonin is thought to underlie major depression.”
> 
> 3752 In Vivo PET Imaging of the Serotonin Transporter (SERT) and 5HTiA 
> Receptor in Bipolar Disorder. Identify changes in brain chemistry that 
> may cause an episode of depression and/or be associated with suicidal 
> behaviors.” For more information, please contact Dr. Mann at 212-543-5571.
> 
> In 1995, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Research Award 
> went to Dr. Mann “for his breakthrough research on serotonin levels as 
> a predictor of suicide risk. Dr. Mann’s research has helped to uncover 
> the chemical imbalances that occur in depressed patients, and his work 
> on hormonal abnormalities in suicidal patients has fostered the 
> development of tests that predict suicide risk. His studies of the 
> different tests measuring perturbations in the brain=B9s secretion of 
> the hormone serotonin have contributed substantially to recent advances 
> in the field.”
> 
> Begley correctly observes that the false “chemical imbalance” premise 
> is misdirecting patients away from potentially better therapeutic 
> options: “The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping 
> patients from a therapy that will help them more in the long term. The 
> relapse rate for patients on pills is higher than for those getting 
> cognitive-behavior psychotherapy.”
> 
> Indeed, unsubstantiated pronouncements by psychiatry’s leadership gave 
> the mental health industry and its patient advocacy front groups 
> pseudo-scientific arguments with which to equate mental illness to 
> physical illnesses–such as diabetes (for which insulin is needed to 
> balance blood-sugar level).
> 
> This patently false comparison gave the psychotropic drug lobby–which 
> includes the National Institute of Mental Health and state mental health 
> agencies–ammunition with which to lobby for drug budget parity. They 
> lobbied for the latest, most expensive medicines to restore a “chemical 
> imbalance” in mental disorders–a claim that Dr. Goodman acknowledges 
> is nothing but “a useful metaphor.”
> 
> That “useful metaphor” was used to deceive patients and the public and 
> to divert health care funds from essential medicines to pay for drugs 
> whose benefit is now largely in doubt, and whose severe adverse effects 
> are undermining patients’ physical and mental health.
> 
> Dr. Goodman admits that he has never revealed the truth to his 
> patients– “I can’t get myself to say that.”
> The fact is the psychiatric establishment has been concealing the truth 
> about the lack of scientific evidence behind all of its theoretical 
> constructs 
> 
> Contact: Vera Hassner Sharav
> 212-595-8974=20 veracare@ahrp.org 
> _________________________________________________
> THE WALL STREET JOURNAL SCIENCE JOURNAL=20 By SHARON BEGLEY
> http://online.wsj.com/img/colhed_begley_sharon.jpg
> 
> Some Drugs Work To Treat Depression, But It Isn’t Clear How November 18, 
> 2005; Page B1 Hardly any patients know how Lipitor lowers cholesterol, 
> how Lotensin reduces blood pressure, or even how ibuprofen erases 
> headaches. But when it comes to Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil, ads and 
> glowing accounts in the press have turned patients with depression into 
> veritable pharmacologists, able to rattle off how these “selective 
> serotonin reuptake inhibitors” keep more of the brain chemical serotonin 
> hanging around in synapses, correcting the neurochemical imbalance that 
> causes depression.
> 
> There is only one problem. “Not a single peer-reviewed article … 
> support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder,” 
> scientists write in the December issue of the journal PLoS Medicine.
> 
> Indeed, a steady drip of studies have challenged the “serotonin did it” 
> hypothesis. A 2003 mouse experiment suggested that SSRIs work by 
> inducing the birth and growth of new brain neurons, not by monkeying 
> with serotonin.
> In March, a review of decades of research concluded that something other 
> than “changes in chemical balance might underlie depression.” And as 
> Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo write in PLoS Medicine, although ads 
> for SSRIs say they correct a chemical imbalance, “there is no such thing 
> as a scientifically correct ‘balance’ of serotonin.”
> 
> How did so many smart people get it so wrong? Medicinal chemist Derek 
> Lowe, who works in drug development for a pharmaceutical firm, offered 
> an explanation in his “In the Pipeline” blog. “I worked on central 
> nervous system drugs for eight years, and I can confidently state that 
> we know just slightly more than jack” about how antidepressants work.
> 
> It is not for lack of trying. In 1965, psychiatrist Joseph Schildkraut 
> of Harvard University suggested that a deficiency of a brain chemical 
> causes depression. With the success of drugs that block the reuptake of 
> these chemicals, that idea started to look pretty good.
> 
> Yet the evidence was always circumstantial. You can’t measure serotonin 
> in the brains of living human beings. The next best thing, measuring 
> the compounds that serotonin breaks down to in cerebrospinal fluid, 
> suggested that clinically depressed patients had less of it than healthy 
> people did.
> But it was never clear whether depression caused those low levels, or 
> vice versa. A 2002 review of these early experiments took them to task 
> for such flaws.
> 
> There had always been data that don’t fit the serotonin-imbalance theory.
> Depleting people’s serotonin levels sometimes changed their mood for the 
> worse and sometimes didn’t. Sending serotonin levels through the roof 
> didn’t help depression, a study found as early as 1975.
> 
> There is little doubt that the SSRIs do what their name says, keeping 
> more serotonin in the brain’s synapses. But the fact “that SSRIs act on 
> the serotonin system does not mean that clinical depression results from 
> a shortage of serotonin,” says Dr. Leo, professor of anatomy at Lake 
> Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, Bradenton, Fla. No more so, 
> anyway, than the fact that steroid creams help rashes means that rashes 
> are caused by a steroid shortage.
> 
> A clue to how SSRIs do work comes from how long they take to have any 
> effect. They rarely make a dent in depression before three weeks, and 
> sometimes take eight weeks to kick in. But they affect serotonin levels 
> right away. If depression doesn’t lift despite that serotonin hit, the 
> drugs must be doing something else; it’s the something else that eases 
> depression.
> 
> The best evidence so far is that the something else is neurogenesis — 
> the birth of new neurons. When scientists led by Rene Hen of Columbia 
> University and Ronald Duman of Yale blocked neurogenesis in mice, SSRIs 
> had no effect.
> When neurogenesis was unimpeded, SSRIs made the mice less anxious and 
> depressed — for rodents. As best scientists can tell, SSRIs first 
> activate the serotonin system, which is somehow necessary for 
> neurogenesis. That is what takes weeks.
> 
> Claiming that depression results from a brain-chemical imbalance, as ads 
> do, is problematic on several fronts. Patients who believe this are 
> more likely to demand a prescription. If you have a disease caused by 
> too little insulin, you take insulin; if you have one caused by too 
> little serotonin, you take serotonin boosters.
> 
> Most people treated for depression get pills rather than psychotherapy, 
> and this week a study from Stanford University reported that drugs have 
> been supplanting psychotherapy for depressed adolescents. Clinical 
> guidelines call for using both, and for psychotherapy to be the 
> first-line treatment for most kids. Psychotherapy “can be as effective 
> as medications” for major depression, concluded a study in April of 240 
> patients, in the Archives of General Psychiatry. Numerous other studies 
> find the same.
> 
> The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping patients from a 
> therapy that will help them more in the long term. The relapse rate for 
> patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior 
> psychotherapy.
> 
> Some 19 million people in the U.S. suffer from depression in any given 
> year.
> For many, SSRIs help little, if at all. To do better, we have to get 
> the science right.
> 
> Write to Sharon Begley at sciencejournal@wsj.com 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> NewScientist.com 
> 
> Television adverts for antidepressants cause anxiety
> * 12 November 2005
> * From New Scientist Print Edition.
> ADVERTS that claim depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, and 
> that antidepressants correct it, are false and should be banned, say two 
> mental health specialists.
> 
> Popular antidepressants such as Prozac and Celexa block the uptake of 
> the neurotransmitter serotonin and have been shown to be slightly better 
> than placebo in treating depression. But low serotonin levels are no 
> more the cause of depression than low aspirin levels are the cause of 
> headaches, argue Jonathan Leo at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic 
> Medicine in Bradenton, Florida, and Jeffrey Lacasse at Florida State 
> University in Tallahassee (Public Library of Science Medicine, DOI:
> 10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392).
> 
> “It has become an absolute mainstay of popular culture,” says Leo. “But 
> there’s very little support for this. We really don’t know what 
> chemicals are involved.”
> 
> Wayne Goodman, chair of the psychopharmacologic advisory committee of 
> the US Food and Drug Administration admits they have a point. He calls 
> the chemical imbalance story a “useful metaphor” but says it is never 
> one he uses when talking to patients. “I can’t get myself to say that.”
> 
> The Irish Medicines Board, the equivalent of the FDA in Ireland, 
> recently banned GlaxoSmithKline from making similar claims in 
> information for patients. Leo and Lacasse want the FDA to follow suit.
> 
> 
> */Beatriz /* wrote:
> 
> I disagree with Jon. I have been using it for the last 5 years and
> it has
> helped me with reducing the intensity and occurrence of my migraines
> as well
> as with the quality of my sleep. I am 47. My father, who is in his 70s,
> started taking it recently to get off benzos and is also benefiting
> from it
> much in the same way and he claims that it has also helped him with his
> rather extreme mood swings.
> Beatriz
> 
> 
> —–Original Message—–
> From: jon [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:44 AM
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
> 
> 5-HTP isn’t generally particularly effective, as it does not readily
> cross the blood brain barrier. Any beneficial effects from it are
> likely
> a placebo effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Carol
> 
> *_______________________________*
> *Never Accept Only Two Choices in Life.*
> *The problems of Today cannot be solved by the same thinking that 
> created them.*
> *-Al Einstein. *
> ** 
> 
> ————————————————————————
> Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click. 
> 
> 



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Best regards,
Carol
_______________________________
Never Accept Only Two Choices in Life.
The problems of Today cannot be solved by the same thinking that created them.
-Al Einstein.
Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re:  5-hydroxtryptophane
Date: November 21, 2005 at 12:03:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Placebo effect or not, one has to remember that 5-HTP is used by the body to MAKE serotonin.  There is a lot of serotonin all over the body, especially in the blood plate-lets.  How the brain gets it is a complicated question.  Dr. Ed
5-HTP is an intermediary chemical step in the production of serotonin. Tryptophan enters the brain, it’s converted into 5-HTP, and then into serotonin.
Eating foods rich in tryptophan, or taking tryptophan supplements, might be good for depression. I don’t know if any studies have been run on that, but it’d make sense. There is good evidence, though, that eating foods rich in tryptophan or taking tryptophan supplements is better than placebo in inducing sleep.
now i kinda want some turkey….
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] (OT) Re: [Ibogaine]test     test      test
Date: November 20, 2005 at 11:43:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
you passed this test with flying colors…I take it it was multiple choice?
;-))
Please all think strong, positive thoughts for me as I go see my doc tomorrow, for strength of will and dedication to my choice of new paths. I realize that your thinking good thoughts really in the end doesn’t do much concrete to help me in my decision making, but it’s nice to know that there are others out there in a non-NA/AA/etcA setting that care and know what I’m going through, and how freakin’ difficult it can get at times- the mental battles are as bad at times as the physical pains AND withdrawal problems.
  So my point is, you none of you have to respond- just think for me in positive ways for a few more days at least, that I remain true to myself, to what I think I really do want more than not.
Then of course, there’s that other horrific addiction I am dealing with – tobacoo. The tobacco does more damage to me physically than any opiate use does, but it’s not so socially unacceptable. The irony. V hate the smell of my smoking, particularly after I’ve been smoking all day, or when I get up very early, go to the rest room and have a smoke then come back to bed reeking of cigarettes- and I hate the reaction from her, which leaves me feeling like dirt aband full of guilt for subjecting her to the stench non-stop- at least I’m smoking outside the apartment or in the bathroom only now, and this is a new thing as of a couple months ago. But I need to stop completely. I’ve been taking Wellbutron for three weeks now- so I should be able to set a date now to quit, right? I also have two boxes of patches left from what the city of NY sent me a few months ago when I called their stop-smoking phone line. I may try to use those for a few days to help, to see what happens. I just dread putting on a patch, then deciding I rEALLY need a smoke, and then have to take it off, wasting the patch just so I can have one smoke that doesn’t get me high, clogs up my lungs, and slows down my circulation, not to mention makes me smell and feel unhealthy.
  I’m ranting ’cause I’m nervous about tomrorrow.
Good night and sweet dreams all.
Peace and love,
Preston
—– Original Message —– From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]test test test
test          ests          stet
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From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re:  5-hydroxtryptophane
Date: November 20, 2005 at 11:32:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Placebo effect or not, one has to remember that 5-HTP is used by the body to MAKE serotonin.  There is a lot of serotonin all over the body, especially in the blood plate-lets.  How the brain gets it is a complicated question.  Dr. Ed
From: “Ann B. Mullikin” <think@francomm.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] ???
Date: November 20, 2005 at 4:23:37 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Where did everybody go?  Is Patrick or somebody doing maintenance or what?
cheers
ann
think@francomm.com
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine]test     test      test
Date: November 20, 2005 at 3:47:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
test          ests          stet
From: Carol Ann <saffireskyes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane- Serotonin – Antidepressants
Date: November 20, 2005 at 3:43:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What the articles, from my interpretation,  are in part trying to convey is that since the advent of modern Psychiatry, the availability and  prolific use of pharmaceuticals, nice, neat blanket labels have been given  to most, if not the majority of perceived or diagnosed mental disorders, which may not even exist. And as the article indicates,  they may be at best circumstantial.  Begs the question…Who does the diagnosis the diagnose rs?
Did modern psychiatry create a need, a market. Definitely.  Before such an industry existed, and yes, it is a rapidly growing industry,  what appeared as abhorrent, socially unacceptable mental behavior was often attributed to possession.  Such theories were laughed out of the industry as being draconian and superstitious. Modern “Psychiatrists” are in actuality taking the  place of Witch Doctors and Shamans but are to ashamed to acknowledge the role. Doesn’t sound very prestigious, does it.
The thrust of this forum is focused upon spiritual healing through the use of ethnogens which calls for a tremendous amount of subjectivity and interpretation. The individual experience is given priority and most importantly, empowerment through “self” analysis.
 The primary use of these types of drugs (Ibo) cause phenomenological amplification towards the symbolism of what is observed. Empirical medicine is  more concerned with pathology, the restoration of technical functioning which is barely understood.  While legally prescribed Rx’s like Zoloft, Prozac, Ritalin, Paxol,  etc. fall within the same category, possibly acting more familiar transmitters………
“The relapse rate for  patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior  psychotherapy.”
I know people, as I am sure you do, that have been taking sanctioned drugs for as long as 20 years with no signs of any serious or significant improvement other than the day to day management of the imbalances so that they can function, often marginally.
Fact is TPTB will never make a case for drugs such as Ibo, Amanita Muscaria, Salvia, etc. .  To do so would rattle profits, marginalize a growing industry, and most importantly, lead to personal empowerment.
Jon, conclusions cannot be made within various related medical Establishment. Its rather refreshing to see the more conscientious minded and perhaps more ethical   begin to strike out and question their own pseudo-scientific data and treatment  modalities.
Regards,
Carol Ann
jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
Well, I think it’s clear that the biological basis of depression is more
complicated than just having low levels of serotonin. Some people with
depression repsond well to SSRIs, some respond well to SNRIs, some
respond well to SARIs, some respond well to NaSSAs, etc. Clearly, there
are multiple neurotransmitter systems involved and there may very well
be as-of-yet undiscovered neurotransmitters involved as well.
But to conclude that mental disorders are NOT related to chemical
imbalances AT ALL is to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Furthermore, it just doesn’t make logical sense… “normal” mood states
are a result of chemcial interactions in the brain, so “abnormal” mood
states must also be the result of chemical interactions in the brain;
presumably of “abnormal” chemical interactions. Such a hypothesis is
further supported by the fact that mental illness can be induced by
introducing certain chemicals to the brain.
I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the chemical imbalances
responsible for mental illness are more complex than we are currently
aware of, but to conclude that mental illness is NOT a result of
chemical imbalance is a logical fallacy.
> > An M.D. in Duluth runs a non-prescription-drug Mental Health Clinic, and
> > uses 5HTP on almost all of his patients who show depression, insomnia,
> > etc. He swears by it. I’ve been using it just to help maintain my
> > sleep, as it is breaking up due to my age (72 y.o.). Certainly seems
> > harmless and may be doing some good. No side effects, but at least I
> > have the assurance that my body can maybe make the serotonin it needs.
> > The psychiatric antidepressant drugs DON’T MAKE serotonin, they just
> > unbalance the body’s destruction of serotonin, and in doing so are
> > Habit-Forming, leading to “withdrawal symptoms” when the
> > anti-depressants are stopped. Anybody coming off SSRIs should use
> > this! Good luck. Dr. Ed
>
>
>
> 1. Opinion – Vera Hassner Sharav
> 2. THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and SCIENCE JOURNAL
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>
> ALLIANCE FOR HUMAN RESEARCH PROTECTION (AHRP)
> Promoting Openness, Full Disclosure, and Accountability www.ahrp.org
>
> One after another of psychiatry’s theoretical constructs and therapeutic
> armamentarium have been knocked down and relegated to the dust-heap of
> pseudo-scientific history. None of psychiatry’s claims have withstood
> the test of scientific scrutiny. The very core upon which psychiatry’s
> practice guidelines are based–using drugs to restore a “chemical
> imbalance” in the brain– has been shown to be nothing but
> unsubstantiated speculation.
>
> Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo, Ph.D., the authors of “Serotonin and
> depression: A disconnect between the advertisements and the scientific
> literature,” published in PLoS Medicine, have delivered a decisive blow
> to psychiatry’s unubstantiated claim about a “chemical imbalance” in the
> brain of people who suffer from depression –or other psychological /
> emotional ailments.
>
> The article, by a professor of anatomy and a doctoral student, is
> receiving wide attention both in the general and medical news
> media–Nature, WebMD, Medscape, UPI, New Scientist, the Wall Street Journal.
>
> When confronted with evidence refuting this mantra of biological
> psychiatry, Wayne Goodman, chair of the FDA’s psychopharmacologic
> advisory committee admited in The New Scientist, that the “chemical
> imbalance” story is but a “useful metaphor.”
>
> WSJ health columnist, Sharon Begley, points out that “For many, SSRIs
> help little, if at all. To do better, we have to get the science right.”
>
> But instead of science, the public and health care professionals have
> been fed a bill of goods:
> “Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil ads and glowing accounts in the press have
> turned patients with depression into veritable pharmacologists, able to
> rattle off” the serotonin chemical imbalance script they have been fed
> by SSRI drug manufacturers and the psychiatric establishment. But
> Lacasse and Leo found that: “Not a single peer-reviewed article …
> support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder.”
>
> “Low serotonin levels no more cause depression than low aspirin levels
> cause headache.
> Yet, not only company advertisements but leading psychiatrists have
> deluded the public for decades with such false claims:
>
> To cite but two examples:
> NYU Child Study Center website assures families:
> “Our faculty and staff have special expertise in dealing with all
> aspects of Depressive Disorders.” Then proceeds to state: “Depression
> is most likely due to an inherited predisposition to a chemical
> imbalance in the brain.”
> See: http://aboutourkids.org/aboutour/disorders/depressive.html
> Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons Kreichman PET
> Center lists two courses offered by John Mann, MD.
>
> “4294 PET Mapping of Serotonin Transporters …Find out if / what
> changes in brain chemistry can cause an episode of depression.
> Serotonin is an important chemical in the brain and deficiency of
> serotonin is thought to underlie major depression.”
>
> 3752 In Vivo PET Imaging of the Serotonin Transporter (SERT) and 5HTiA
> Receptor in Bipolar Disorder. Identify changes in brain chemistry that
> may cause an episode of depression and/or be associated with suicidal
> behaviors.” For more information, please contact Dr. Mann at 212-543-5571.
>
> In 1995, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Research Award
> went to Dr. Mann “for his breakthrough research on serotonin levels as
> a predictor of suicide risk. Dr. Mann’s research has helped to uncover
> the chemical imbalances that occur in depressed patients, and his work
> on hormonal abnormalities in suicidal patients has fostered the
> development of tests that predict suicide risk. His studies of the
> different tests measuring perturbations in the brain=B9s secretion of
> the hormone serotonin have contributed substantially to recent advances
> in the field.”
>
> Begley correctly observes that the false “chemical imbalance” premise
> is misdirecting patients away from potentially better therapeutic
> options: “The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping
> patients from a therapy that will help them more in the long term. The
> relapse rate for patients on pills is higher than for those getting
> cognitive-behavior psychotherapy.”
>
> Indeed, unsubstantiated pronouncements by psychiatry’s leadership gave
> the mental health industry and its patient advocacy front groups
> pseudo-scientific arguments with which to equate mental illness to
> physical illnesses–such as diabetes (for which insulin is needed to
> balance blood-sugar level).
>
> This patently false comparison gave the psychotropic drug lobby–which
> includes the National Institute of Mental Health and state mental health
> agencies–ammunition with which to lobby for drug budget parity. They
> lobbied for the latest, most expensive medicines to restore a “chemical
> imbalance” in mental disorders–a claim that Dr. Goodman acknowledges
> is nothing but “a useful metaphor.”
>
> That “useful metaphor” was used to deceive patients and the public and
> to divert health care funds from essential medicines to pay for drugs
> whose benefit is now largely in doubt, and whose severe adverse effects
> are undermining patients’ physical and mental health.
>
> Dr. Goodman admits that he has never revealed the truth to his
> patients– “I can’t get myself to say that.”
> The fact is the psychiatric establishment has been concealing the truth
> about the lack of scientific evidence behind all of its theoretical
> constructs
>
> Contact: Vera Hassner Sharav
> 212-595-8974=20 veracare@ahrp.org
> _________________________________________________
> THE WALL STREET JOURNAL SCIENCE JOURNAL=20 By SHARON BEGLEY
> http://online.wsj.com/img/colhed_begley_sharon.jpg
>
> Some Drugs Work To Treat Depression, But It Isn’t Clear How November 18,
> 2005; Page B1 Hardly any patients know how Lipitor lowers cholesterol,
> how Lotensin reduces blood pressure, or even how ibuprofen erases
> headaches. But when it comes to Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil, ads and
> glowing accounts in the press have turned patients with depression into
> veritable pharmacologists, able to rattle off how these “selective
> serotonin reuptake inhibitors” keep more of the brain chemical serotonin
> hanging around in synapses, correcting the neurochemical imbalance that
> causes depression.
>
> There is only one problem. “Not a single peer-reviewed article …
> support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder,”
> scientists write in the December issue of the journal PLoS Medicine.
>
> Indeed, a steady drip of studies have challenged the “serotonin did it”
> hypothesis. A 2003 mouse experiment suggested that SSRIs work by
> inducing the birth and growth of new brain neurons, not by monkeying
> with serotonin.
> In March, a review of decades of research concluded that something other
> than “changes in chemical balance might underlie depression.” And as
> Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo write in PLoS Medicine, although ads
> for SSRIs say they correct a chemical imbalance, “there is no such thing
> as a scientifically correct ‘balance’ of serotonin.”
>
> How did so many smart people get it so wrong? Medicinal chemist Derek
> Lowe, who works in drug development for a pharmaceutical firm, offered
> an explanation in his “In the Pipeline” blog. “I worked on central
> nervous system drugs for eight years, and I can confidently state that
> we know just slightly more than jack” about how antidepressants work.
>
> It is not for lack of trying. In 1965, psychiatrist Joseph Schildkraut
> of Harvard University suggested that a deficiency of a brain chemical
> causes depression. With the success of drugs that block the reuptake of
> these chemicals, that idea started to look pretty good.
>
> Yet the evidence was always circumstantial. You can’t measure serotonin
> in the brains of living human beings. The next best thing, measuring
> the compounds that serotonin breaks down to in cerebrospinal fluid,
> suggested that clinically depressed patients had less of it than healthy
> people did.
> But it was never clear whether depression caused those low levels, or
> vice versa. A 2002 review of these early experiments took them to task
> for such flaws.
>
> There had always been data that don’t fit the serotonin-imbalance theory.
> Depleting people’s serotonin levels sometimes changed their mood for the
> worse and sometimes didn’t. Sending serotonin levels through the roof
> didn’t help depression, a study found as early as 1975.
>
> There is little doubt that the SSRIs do what their name says, keeping
> more serotonin in the brain’s synapses. But the fact “that SSRIs act on
> the serotonin system does not mean that clinical depression results from
> a shortage of serotonin,” says Dr. Leo, professor of anatomy at Lake
> Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, Bradenton, Fla. No more so,
> anyway, than the fact that steroid creams help rashes means that rashes
> are caused by a steroid shortage.
>
> A clue to how SSRIs do work comes from how long they take to have any
> effect. They rarely make a dent in depression before three weeks, and
> sometimes take eight weeks to kick in. But they affect serotonin levels
> right away. If depression doesn’t lift despite that serotonin hit, the
> drugs must be doing something else; it’s the something else that eases
> depression.
>
> The best evidence so far is that the something else is neurogenesis —
> the birth of new neurons. When scientists led by Rene Hen of Columbia
> University and Ronald Duman of Yale blocked neurogenesis in mice, SSRIs
> had no effect.
> When neurogenesis was unimpeded, SSRIs made the mice less anxious and
> depressed — for rodents. As best scientists can tell, SSRIs first
> activate the serotonin system, which is somehow necessary for
> neurogenesis. That is what takes weeks.
>
> Claiming that depression results from a brain-chemical imbalance, as ads
> do, is problematic on several fronts. Patients who believe this are
> more likely to demand a prescription. If you have a disease caused by
> too little insulin, you take insulin; if you have one caused by too
> little serotonin, you take serotonin boosters.
>
> Most people treated for depression get pills rather than psychotherapy,
> and this week a study from Stanford University reported that drugs have
> been supplanting psychotherapy for depressed adolescents. Clinical
> guidelines call for using both, and for psychotherapy to be the
> first-line treatment for most kids. Psychotherapy “can be as effective
> as medications” for major depression, concluded a study in April of 240
> patients, in the Archives of General Psychiatry. Numerous other studies
> find the same.
>
> The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping patients from a
> therapy that will help them more in the long term. The relapse rate for
> patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior
> psychotherapy.
>
> Some 19 million people in the U.S. suffer from depression in any given
> year.
> For many, SSRIs help little, if at all. To do better, we have to get
> the science right.
>
> Write to Sharon Begley at sciencejournal@wsj.com
>
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> NewScientist.com
>
> Television adverts for antidepressants cause anxiety
> * 12 November 2005
> * From New Scientist Print Edition.
> ADVERTS that claim depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, and
> that antidepressants correct it, are false and should be banned, say two
> mental health specialists.
>
> Popular antidepressants such as Prozac and Celexa block the uptake of
> the neurotransmitter serotonin and have been shown to be slightly better
> than placebo in treating depression. But low serotonin levels are no
> more the cause of depression than low aspirin levels are the cause of
> headaches, argue Jonathan Leo at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic
> Medicine in Bradenton, Florida, and Jeffrey Lacasse at Florida State
> University in Tallahassee (Public Library of Science Medicine, DOI:
> 10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392).
>
> “It has become an absolute mainstay of popular culture,” says Leo. “But
> there’s very little support for this. We really don’t know what
> chemicals are involved.”
>
> Wayne Goodman, chair of the psychopharmacologic advisory committee of
> the US Food and Drug Administration admits they have a point. He calls
> the chemical imbalance story a “useful metaphor” but says it is never
> one he uses when talking to patients. “I can’t get myself to say that.”
>
> The Irish Medicines Board, the equivalent of the FDA in Ireland,
> recently banned GlaxoSmithKline from making similar claims in
> information for patients. Leo and Lacasse want the FDA to follow suit.
>
>
> */Beatriz /* wrote:
>
> I disagree with Jon. I have been using it for the last 5 years and
> it has
> helped me with reducing the intensity and occurrence of my migraines
> as well
> as with the quality of my sleep. I am 47. My father, who is in his 70s,
> started taking it recently to get off benzos and is also benefiting
> from it
> much in the same way and he claims that it has also helped him with his
> rather extreme mood swings.
> Beatriz
>
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: jon [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:44 AM
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
>
> 5-HTP isn’t generally particularly effective, as it does not readily
> cross the blood brain barrier. Any beneficial effects from it are
> likely
> a placebo effect.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Carol
>
> *_______________________________*
> *Never Accept Only Two Choices in Life.*
> *The problems of Today cannot be solved by the same thinking that
> created them.*
> *-Al Einstein. *
> **
>
> ————————————————————————
> Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
Best regards,
Carol
_______________________________
Never Accept Only Two Choices in Life.
The problems of Today cannot be solved by the same thinking that created them.
-Al Einstein.
Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
From: “Peter Hyatt” <phyatt1962@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane- Serotonin – Antidepressants
Date: November 20, 2005 at 2:23:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
seen it both ways…..5HTP worked for some; but not for others.  Never heard of its use in animals, though.
From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane- Serotonin – Antidepressants
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:43:08 -0500
Well, I think it’s clear that the biological basis of depression is more complicated than just having low levels of serotonin. Some people with depression repsond well to SSRIs, some respond well to SNRIs, some respond well to SARIs, some respond well to NaSSAs, etc. Clearly, there are multiple neurotransmitter systems involved and there may very well be as-of-yet undiscovered neurotransmitters involved as well.
But to conclude that mental disorders are NOT related to chemical imbalances AT ALL is to throw the baby out with the bath water. Furthermore, it just doesn’t make logical sense… “normal” mood states are a result of chemcial interactions in the brain, so “abnormal” mood states must also be the result of chemical interactions in the brain; presumably of “abnormal” chemical interactions. Such a hypothesis is further supported by the fact that mental illness can be induced by introducing certain chemicals to the brain.
I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the chemical imbalances responsible for mental illness are more complex than we are currently aware of, but to conclude that mental illness is NOT a result of chemical imbalance is a logical fallacy.
> An M.D. in Duluth runs a non-prescription-drug Mental Health Clinic, and
> uses 5HTP on almost all of his patients who show depression, insomnia,
> etc. He swears by it. I’ve been using it just to help maintain my
> sleep, as it is breaking up due to my age (72 y.o.). Certainly seems
> harmless and may be doing some good. No side effects, but at least I
> have the assurance that my body can maybe make the serotonin it needs.
> The psychiatric antidepressant drugs DON’T MAKE serotonin, they just
> unbalance the body’s destruction of serotonin, and in doing so are
> Habit-Forming, leading to “withdrawal symptoms” when the
> anti-depressants are stopped. Anybody coming off SSRIs should use
> this! Good luck. Dr. Ed
1.  Opinion – Vera Hassner Sharav
2.  THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and SCIENCE JOURNAL
___________________________________________________________________________
ALLIANCE FOR HUMAN RESEARCH PROTECTION (AHRP)
Promoting Openness, Full Disclosure, and Accountability www.ahrp.org
One after another of psychiatry’s theoretical constructs and therapeutic armamentarium have been knocked down and relegated to the dust-heap of pseudo-scientific history.  None of psychiatry’s claims have withstood the test of scientific scrutiny.  The very core upon which psychiatry’s practice guidelines are based–using drugs to restore a “chemical imbalance” in the brain– has been shown to be nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.
Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo, Ph.D., the authors of “Serotonin and depression: A disconnect between the advertisements and the scientific literature,” published in PLoS Medicine, have delivered a decisive blow to psychiatry’s unubstantiated claim about a “chemical imbalance” in the brain of people who suffer from depression –or other psychological / emotional ailments.
The article, by a professor of anatomy and a doctoral student, is receiving wide attention both in the general and medical news media–Nature, WebMD, Medscape, UPI, New Scientist, the Wall Street Journal.
When confronted with evidence refuting this mantra of biological psychiatry, Wayne Goodman, chair of the FDA’s psychopharmacologic advisory committee admited in The New Scientist, that the “chemical imbalance” story is but a “useful metaphor.”
WSJ health columnist, Sharon Begley, points out that “For many, SSRIs help little, if at all.  To do better, we have to get the science right.”
But instead of science, the public and health care professionals have been fed a bill of goods:
“Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil ads and glowing accounts in the press have turned patients with depression into veritable pharmacologists, able to rattle off” the serotonin chemical imbalance script they have been fed by SSRI drug manufacturers and the psychiatric establishment.  But Lacasse and Leo found that: “Not a single peer-reviewed article …  support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder.”
“Low serotonin levels no more cause depression than low aspirin levels cause headache.
Yet, not only company advertisements but leading psychiatrists have deluded the public for decades with such false claims:
To cite but two examples:
NYU Child Study Center website assures families:
“Our faculty and staff have special expertise in dealing with all aspects of Depressive Disorders.” Then proceeds to state:  “Depression is most likely due to an inherited predisposition to a chemical imbalance in the brain.”
See:  http://aboutourkids.org/aboutour/disorders/depressive.html
Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons Kreichman PET Center lists two courses offered by John Mann, MD.
“4294 PET Mapping of Serotonin Transporters …Find out if / what changes in brain chemistry can cause an episode of depression.  Serotonin is an important chemical in the brain and deficiency of serotonin is thought to underlie major depression.”
3752 In Vivo PET Imaging of the Serotonin Transporter (SERT)  and 5HTiA Receptor in Bipolar Disorder.  Identify changes in brain chemistry that may cause an episode of depression and/or be associated with suicidal behaviors.” For more information, please contact Dr.  Mann at 212-543-5571.
In 1995, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Research Award went to Dr.  Mann “for his breakthrough research on serotonin levels as a predictor of suicide risk.  Dr.  Mann’s research has helped to uncover the chemical imbalances that occur in depressed patients, and his work on hormonal abnormalities in suicidal patients has fostered the development of tests that predict suicide risk.  His studies of the different tests measuring perturbations in the brain=B9s secretion of the hormone serotonin have contributed substantially to recent advances in the field.”
Begley correctly observes that the false “chemical imbalance”  premise is misdirecting patients away from potentially better therapeutic options: “The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping patients from a therapy that will help them more in the long term.  The relapse rate for patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior psychotherapy.”
Indeed, unsubstantiated pronouncements by psychiatry’s leadership gave the mental health industry and its patient advocacy front groups pseudo-scientific arguments with which to equate mental illness to physical illnesses–such as diabetes (for which insulin is needed to balance blood-sugar level).
This patently false comparison gave the psychotropic drug lobby–which includes the National Institute of Mental Health and state mental health agencies–ammunition with which to lobby for drug budget parity.  They lobbied for the latest, most expensive medicines to restore a “chemical imbalance” in mental disorders–a claim that Dr.  Goodman acknowledges is nothing but “a useful metaphor.”
That “useful metaphor” was used to deceive patients and the public and to divert health care funds from essential medicines to pay for drugs whose benefit is now largely in doubt, and whose severe adverse effects are undermining patients’ physical and mental health.
Dr.  Goodman admits that he has never revealed the truth to his patients– “I can’t get myself to say that.”
The fact is the psychiatric establishment has been concealing the truth about the lack of scientific evidence behind all of its theoretical constructs and armamentarium.
Contact: Vera Hassner Sharav
212-595-8974=20 veracare@ahrp.org <mailto:veracare@ahrp.org>
_________________________________________________
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL SCIENCE JOURNAL=20 By SHARON BEGLEY
http://online.wsj.com/img/colhed_begley_sharon.jpg
Some Drugs Work To Treat Depression, But It Isn’t Clear How November 18, 2005; Page B1 Hardly any patients know how Lipitor lowers cholesterol, how Lotensin reduces blood pressure, or even how ibuprofen erases headaches.  But when it comes to Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil, ads and glowing accounts in the press have turned patients with depression into veritable pharmacologists, able to rattle off how these “selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors” keep more of the brain chemical serotonin hanging around in synapses, correcting the neurochemical imbalance that causes depression.
There is only one problem.  “Not a single peer-reviewed article … support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder,” scientists write in the December issue of the journal PLoS Medicine.
Indeed, a steady drip of studies have challenged the “serotonin did it” hypothesis.  A 2003 mouse experiment suggested that SSRIs work by inducing the birth and growth of new brain neurons, not by monkeying with serotonin.
In March, a review of decades of research concluded that something other than “changes in chemical balance might underlie depression.” And as Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo write in PLoS Medicine, although ads for SSRIs say they correct a chemical imbalance, “there is no such thing as a scientifically correct ‘balance’ of serotonin.”
How did so many smart people get it so wrong?  Medicinal chemist Derek Lowe, who works in drug development for a pharmaceutical firm, offered an explanation in his “In the Pipeline” blog.  “I worked on central nervous system drugs for eight years, and I can confidently state that we know just slightly more than jack” about how antidepressants work.
It is not for lack of trying.  In 1965, psychiatrist Joseph Schildkraut of Harvard University suggested that a deficiency of a brain chemical causes depression.  With the success of drugs that block the reuptake of these chemicals, that idea started to look pretty good.
Yet the evidence was always circumstantial.  You can’t measure serotonin in the brains of living human beings.  The next best thing, measuring the compounds that serotonin breaks down to in cerebrospinal fluid, suggested that clinically depressed patients had less of it than healthy people did.
But it was never clear whether depression caused those low levels, or vice versa.  A 2002 review of these early experiments took them to task for such flaws.
There had always been data that don’t fit the serotonin-imbalance theory.
Depleting people’s serotonin levels sometimes changed their mood for the worse and sometimes didn’t.  Sending serotonin levels through the roof didn’t help depression, a study found as early as 1975.
There is little doubt that the SSRIs do what their name says, keeping more serotonin in the brain’s synapses.  But the fact “that SSRIs act on the serotonin system does not mean that clinical depression results from a shortage of serotonin,” says Dr.  Leo, professor of anatomy at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, Bradenton, Fla.  No more so, anyway, than the fact that steroid creams help rashes means that rashes are caused by a steroid shortage.
A clue to how SSRIs do work comes from how long they take to have any effect.  They rarely make a dent in depression before three weeks, and sometimes take eight weeks to kick in.  But they affect serotonin levels right away.  If depression doesn’t lift despite that serotonin hit, the drugs must be doing something else; it’s the something else that eases depression.
The best evidence so far is that the something else is neurogenesis — the birth of new neurons.  When scientists led by Rene Hen of Columbia University and Ronald Duman of Yale blocked neurogenesis in mice, SSRIs had no effect.
When neurogenesis was unimpeded, SSRIs made the mice less anxious and depressed — for rodents.  As best scientists can tell, SSRIs first activate the serotonin system, which is somehow necessary for neurogenesis.  That is what takes weeks.
Claiming that depression results from a brain-chemical imbalance, as ads do, is problematic on several fronts.  Patients who believe this are more likely to demand a prescription.  If you have a disease caused by too little insulin, you take insulin; if you have one caused by too little serotonin, you take serotonin boosters.
Most people treated for depression get pills rather than psychotherapy, and this week a study from Stanford University reported that drugs have been supplanting psychotherapy for depressed adolescents.  Clinical guidelines call for using both, and for psychotherapy to be the first-line treatment for most kids.  Psychotherapy “can be as effective as medications” for major depression, concluded a study in April of 240 patients, in the Archives of General Psychiatry.  Numerous other studies find the same.
The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping patients from a therapy that will help them more in the long term.  The relapse rate for patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior psychotherapy.
Some 19 million people in the U.S.  suffer from depression in any given year.
For many, SSRIs help little, if at all.  To do better, we have to get the science right.
Write to Sharon Begley at sciencejournal@wsj.com <mailto:sciencejournal@wsj.com>
_____________________________________________________________
NewScientist.com <http://www.newscientist.com/>
Television adverts for antidepressants cause anxiety
* 12 November 2005
* From New Scientist Print Edition.
ADVERTS that claim depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, and that antidepressants correct it, are false and should be banned, say two mental health specialists.
Popular antidepressants such as Prozac and Celexa block the uptake of the neurotransmitter serotonin and have been shown to be slightly better than placebo in treating depression.  But low serotonin levels are no more the cause of depression than low aspirin levels are the cause of headaches, argue Jonathan Leo at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine in Bradenton, Florida, and Jeffrey Lacasse at Florida State University in Tallahassee (Public Library of Science Medicine, DOI:
10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392).
“It has become an absolute mainstay of popular culture,” says Leo.  “But there’s very little support for this.  We really don’t know what chemicals are involved.”
Wayne Goodman, chair of the psychopharmacologic advisory committee of the US Food and Drug Administration admits they have a point.  He calls the chemical imbalance story a “useful metaphor” but says it is never one he uses when talking to patients.  “I can’t get myself to say that.”
The Irish Medicines Board, the equivalent of the FDA in Ireland, recently banned GlaxoSmithKline from making similar claims in information for patients.  Leo and Lacasse want the FDA to follow suit.
*/Beatriz <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>/* wrote:
   I disagree with Jon. I have been using it for the last 5 years and
   it has
   helped me with reducing the intensity and occurrence of my migraines
   as well
   as with the quality of my sleep. I am 47. My father, who is in his 70s,
   started taking it recently to get off benzos and is also benefiting
   from it
   much in the same way and he claims that it has also helped him with his
   rather extreme mood swings.
   Beatriz
   —–Original Message—–
   From: jon [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
   Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:44 AM
   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
   Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
   5-HTP isn’t generally particularly effective, as it does not readily
   cross the blood brain barrier. Any beneficial effects from it are
   likely
   a placebo effect.
Best regards,
Carol
*_______________________________*
*Never Accept Only Two Choices in Life.*
*The problems of Today cannot be solved by the same thinking that created them.*
*-Al Einstein. *
**
————————————————————————
Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click. <http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTFqODRtdXQ4BF9TAzMyOTc1MDIEX3MDOTY2ODgxNjkEcG9zAzEEc2VjA21haWwtZm9vdGVyBHNsawNmYw–/SIG=110oav78o/**http%3a//farechase.yahoo.com/>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
/]=———————————————————————=[\
[%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]
\]=———————————————————————=[/
From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane- Serotonin – Antidepressants
Date: November 20, 2005 at 1:43:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well, I think it’s clear that the biological basis of depression is more complicated than just having low levels of serotonin. Some people with depression repsond well to SSRIs, some respond well to SNRIs, some respond well to SARIs, some respond well to NaSSAs, etc. Clearly, there are multiple neurotransmitter systems involved and there may very well be as-of-yet undiscovered neurotransmitters involved as well.
But to conclude that mental disorders are NOT related to chemical imbalances AT ALL is to throw the baby out with the bath water. Furthermore, it just doesn’t make logical sense… “normal” mood states are a result of chemcial interactions in the brain, so “abnormal” mood states must also be the result of chemical interactions in the brain; presumably of “abnormal” chemical interactions. Such a hypothesis is further supported by the fact that mental illness can be induced by introducing certain chemicals to the brain.
I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the chemical imbalances responsible for mental illness are more complex than we are currently aware of, but to conclude that mental illness is NOT a result of chemical imbalance is a logical fallacy.
> An M.D. in Duluth runs a non-prescription-drug Mental Health Clinic, and
> uses 5HTP on almost all of his patients who show depression, insomnia,
> etc. He swears by it. I’ve been using it just to help maintain my
> sleep, as it is breaking up due to my age (72 y.o.). Certainly seems
> harmless and may be doing some good. No side effects, but at least I
> have the assurance that my body can maybe make the serotonin it needs.
> The psychiatric antidepressant drugs DON’T MAKE serotonin, they just
> unbalance the body’s destruction of serotonin, and in doing so are
> Habit-Forming, leading to “withdrawal symptoms” when the
> anti-depressants are stopped. Anybody coming off SSRIs should use
> this! Good luck. Dr. Ed
1.  Opinion – Vera Hassner Sharav
2.  THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and SCIENCE JOURNAL
___________________________________________________________________________
ALLIANCE FOR HUMAN RESEARCH PROTECTION (AHRP)
Promoting Openness, Full Disclosure, and Accountability www.ahrp.org
One after another of psychiatry’s theoretical constructs and therapeutic armamentarium have been knocked down and relegated to the dust-heap of pseudo-scientific history.  None of psychiatry’s claims have withstood the test of scientific scrutiny.  The very core upon which psychiatry’s practice guidelines are based–using drugs to restore a “chemical imbalance” in the brain– has been shown to be nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.
Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo, Ph.D., the authors of “Serotonin and depression: A disconnect between the advertisements and the scientific literature,” published in PLoS Medicine, have delivered a decisive blow to psychiatry’s unubstantiated claim about a “chemical imbalance” in the brain of people who suffer from depression –or other psychological / emotional ailments.
The article, by a professor of anatomy and a doctoral student, is receiving wide attention both in the general and medical news media–Nature, WebMD, Medscape, UPI, New Scientist, the Wall Street Journal.
When confronted with evidence refuting this mantra of biological psychiatry, Wayne Goodman, chair of the FDA’s psychopharmacologic advisory committee admited in The New Scientist, that the “chemical imbalance” story is but a “useful metaphor.”
WSJ health columnist, Sharon Begley, points out that “For many, SSRIs help little, if at all.  To do better, we have to get the science right.”
But instead of science, the public and health care professionals have been fed a bill of goods:
“Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil ads and glowing accounts in the press have turned patients with depression into veritable pharmacologists, able to rattle off” the serotonin chemical imbalance script they have been fed by SSRI drug manufacturers and the psychiatric establishment.  But Lacasse and Leo found that: “Not a single peer-reviewed article …  support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder.”
“Low serotonin levels no more cause depression than low aspirin levels cause headache.
Yet, not only company advertisements but leading psychiatrists have deluded the public for decades with such false claims:
To cite but two examples:
NYU Child Study Center website assures families:
“Our faculty and staff have special expertise in dealing with all aspects of Depressive Disorders.” Then proceeds to state:  “Depression is most likely due to an inherited predisposition to a chemical imbalance in the brain.”
See:  http://aboutourkids.org/aboutour/disorders/depressive.html
Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons Kreichman PET Center lists two courses offered by John Mann, MD.
“4294 PET Mapping of Serotonin Transporters …Find out if / what changes in brain chemistry can cause an episode of depression.  Serotonin is an important chemical in the brain and deficiency of serotonin is thought to underlie major depression.”
3752 In Vivo PET Imaging of the Serotonin Transporter (SERT)  and 5HTiA Receptor in Bipolar Disorder.  Identify changes in brain chemistry that may cause an episode of depression and/or be associated with suicidal behaviors.” For more information, please contact Dr.  Mann at 212-543-5571.
In 1995, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Research Award went to Dr.  Mann “for his breakthrough research on serotonin levels as a predictor of suicide risk.  Dr.  Mann’s research has helped to uncover the chemical imbalances that occur in depressed patients, and his work on hormonal abnormalities in suicidal patients has fostered the development of tests that predict suicide risk.  His studies of the different tests measuring perturbations in the brain=B9s secretion of the hormone serotonin have contributed substantially to recent advances in the field.”
Begley correctly observes that the false “chemical imbalance”  premise is misdirecting patients away from potentially better therapeutic options: “The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping patients from a therapy that will help them more in the long term.  The relapse rate for patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior psychotherapy.”
Indeed, unsubstantiated pronouncements by psychiatry’s leadership gave the mental health industry and its patient advocacy front groups pseudo-scientific arguments with which to equate mental illness to physical illnesses–such as diabetes (for which insulin is needed to balance blood-sugar level).
This patently false comparison gave the psychotropic drug lobby–which includes the National Institute of Mental Health and state mental health agencies–ammunition with which to lobby for drug budget parity.  They lobbied for the latest, most expensive medicines to restore a “chemical imbalance” in mental disorders–a claim that Dr.  Goodman acknowledges is nothing but “a useful metaphor.”
That “useful metaphor” was used to deceive patients and the public and to divert health care funds from essential medicines to pay for drugs whose benefit is now largely in doubt, and whose severe adverse effects are undermining patients’ physical and mental health.
Dr.  Goodman admits that he has never revealed the truth to his patients– “I can’t get myself to say that.”
The fact is the psychiatric establishment has been concealing the truth about the lack of scientific evidence behind all of its theoretical constructs and armamentarium.
Contact: Vera Hassner Sharav
212-595-8974=20 veracare@ahrp.org <mailto:veracare@ahrp.org>
_________________________________________________
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL SCIENCE JOURNAL=20 By SHARON BEGLEY
http://online.wsj.com/img/colhed_begley_sharon.jpg
Some Drugs Work To Treat Depression, But It Isn’t Clear How November 18, 2005; Page B1 Hardly any patients know how Lipitor lowers cholesterol, how Lotensin reduces blood pressure, or even how ibuprofen erases headaches.  But when it comes to Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil, ads and glowing accounts in the press have turned patients with depression into veritable pharmacologists, able to rattle off how these “selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors” keep more of the brain chemical serotonin hanging around in synapses, correcting the neurochemical imbalance that causes depression.
There is only one problem.  “Not a single peer-reviewed article … support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder,” scientists write in the December issue of the journal PLoS Medicine.
Indeed, a steady drip of studies have challenged the “serotonin did it” hypothesis.  A 2003 mouse experiment suggested that SSRIs work by inducing the birth and growth of new brain neurons, not by monkeying with serotonin.
In March, a review of decades of research concluded that something other than “changes in chemical balance might underlie depression.” And as Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo write in PLoS Medicine, although ads for SSRIs say they correct a chemical imbalance, “there is no such thing as a scientifically correct ‘balance’ of serotonin.”
How did so many smart people get it so wrong?  Medicinal chemist Derek Lowe, who works in drug development for a pharmaceutical firm, offered an explanation in his “In the Pipeline” blog.  “I worked on central nervous system drugs for eight years, and I can confidently state that we know just slightly more than jack” about how antidepressants work.
It is not for lack of trying.  In 1965, psychiatrist Joseph Schildkraut of Harvard University suggested that a deficiency of a brain chemical causes depression.  With the success of drugs that block the reuptake of these chemicals, that idea started to look pretty good.
Yet the evidence was always circumstantial.  You can’t measure serotonin in the brains of living human beings.  The next best thing, measuring the compounds that serotonin breaks down to in cerebrospinal fluid, suggested that clinically depressed patients had less of it than healthy people did.
But it was never clear whether depression caused those low levels, or vice versa.  A 2002 review of these early experiments took them to task for such flaws.
There had always been data that don’t fit the serotonin-imbalance theory.
Depleting people’s serotonin levels sometimes changed their mood for the worse and sometimes didn’t.  Sending serotonin levels through the roof didn’t help depression, a study found as early as 1975.
There is little doubt that the SSRIs do what their name says, keeping more serotonin in the brain’s synapses.  But the fact “that SSRIs act on the serotonin system does not mean that clinical depression results from a shortage of serotonin,” says Dr.  Leo, professor of anatomy at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, Bradenton, Fla.  No more so, anyway, than the fact that steroid creams help rashes means that rashes are caused by a steroid shortage.
A clue to how SSRIs do work comes from how long they take to have any effect.  They rarely make a dent in depression before three weeks, and sometimes take eight weeks to kick in.  But they affect serotonin levels right away.  If depression doesn’t lift despite that serotonin hit, the drugs must be doing something else; it’s the something else that eases depression.
The best evidence so far is that the something else is neurogenesis — the birth of new neurons.  When scientists led by Rene Hen of Columbia University and Ronald Duman of Yale blocked neurogenesis in mice, SSRIs had no effect.
When neurogenesis was unimpeded, SSRIs made the mice less anxious and depressed — for rodents.  As best scientists can tell, SSRIs first activate the serotonin system, which is somehow necessary for neurogenesis.  That is what takes weeks.
Claiming that depression results from a brain-chemical imbalance, as ads do, is problematic on several fronts.  Patients who believe this are more likely to demand a prescription.  If you have a disease caused by too little insulin, you take insulin; if you have one caused by too little serotonin, you take serotonin boosters.
Most people treated for depression get pills rather than psychotherapy, and this week a study from Stanford University reported that drugs have been supplanting psychotherapy for depressed adolescents.  Clinical guidelines call for using both, and for psychotherapy to be the first-line treatment for most kids.  Psychotherapy “can be as effective as medications” for major depression, concluded a study in April of 240 patients, in the Archives of General Psychiatry.  Numerous other studies find the same.
The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping patients from a therapy that will help them more in the long term.  The relapse rate for patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior psychotherapy.
Some 19 million people in the U.S.  suffer from depression in any given year.
For many, SSRIs help little, if at all.  To do better, we have to get the science right.
Write to Sharon Begley at sciencejournal@wsj.com <mailto:sciencejournal@wsj.com>
_____________________________________________________________
NewScientist.com <http://www.newscientist.com/>
Television adverts for antidepressants cause anxiety
* 12 November 2005
* From New Scientist Print Edition.
ADVERTS that claim depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, and that antidepressants correct it, are false and should be banned, say two mental health specialists.
Popular antidepressants such as Prozac and Celexa block the uptake of the neurotransmitter serotonin and have been shown to be slightly better than placebo in treating depression.  But low serotonin levels are no more the cause of depression than low aspirin levels are the cause of headaches, argue Jonathan Leo at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine in Bradenton, Florida, and Jeffrey Lacasse at Florida State University in Tallahassee (Public Library of Science Medicine, DOI:
10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392).
“It has become an absolute mainstay of popular culture,” says Leo.  “But there’s very little support for this.  We really don’t know what chemicals are involved.”
Wayne Goodman, chair of the psychopharmacologic advisory committee of the US Food and Drug Administration admits they have a point.  He calls the chemical imbalance story a “useful metaphor” but says it is never one he uses when talking to patients.  “I can’t get myself to say that.”
The Irish Medicines Board, the equivalent of the FDA in Ireland, recently banned GlaxoSmithKline from making similar claims in information for patients.  Leo and Lacasse want the FDA to follow suit.
*/Beatriz <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>/* wrote:
   I disagree with Jon. I have been using it for the last 5 years and
   it has
   helped me with reducing the intensity and occurrence of my migraines
   as well
   as with the quality of my sleep. I am 47. My father, who is in his 70s,
   started taking it recently to get off benzos and is also benefiting
   from it
   much in the same way and he claims that it has also helped him with his
   rather extreme mood swings.
   Beatriz
   —–Original Message—–
   From: jon [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
   Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:44 AM
   To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
   Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
   5-HTP isn’t generally particularly effective, as it does not readily
   cross the blood brain barrier. Any beneficial effects from it are
   likely
   a placebo effect.
Best regards,
Carol
*_______________________________*
*Never Accept Only Two Choices in Life.*
*The problems of Today cannot be solved by the same thinking that created them.*
*-Al Einstein. *
** ————————————————————————
Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click. <http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTFqODRtdXQ4BF9TAzMyOTc1MDIEX3MDOTY2ODgxNjkEcG9zAzEEc2VjA21haWwtZm9vdGVyBHNsawNmYw–/SIG=110oav78o/**http%3a//farechase.yahoo.com/>
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
Date: November 20, 2005 at 1:29:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Beatriz wrote:
I disagree with Jon. I have been using it for the last 5 years and it has
helped me with reducing the intensity and occurrence of my migraines as well
as with the quality of my sleep. I am 47. My father, who is in his 70s,
started taking it recently to get off benzos and is also benefiting from it
much in the same way and he claims that it has also helped him with his
rather extreme mood swings. Beatriz
Well, you may experience benefits from “taking” 5-HTP; but the benefits are not likely from the 5-HTP itself, but rather from the fact that you are doing something that you think will help.
The problem, as I said, is that 5-HTP does not readily cross the blood brain barrier. That is to say, when you take 5-HTP, very very little of it, if any, gets to your brain.
Remember, the placebo effect is very powerful. For example, during the Napoleanic Wars, British soldiers frequently needed to have limbs amputated. This was before morphine was in common medical usage, and the British field surgeons needed something that would allow them to perform amputation without causing extreme pain to the patients. They came up with what they called “black draft and blue pill”, which worked marvelously; it greatly reduced the subjective pain experienced by the amputees.
The “black draft” was coffee with a little bit of brandy in it, and the “blue pill” was nothing more than flour pressed in the shape of a pill and dyed blue. But because the soldiers THOUGHT they were getting some sort of pain relieving drug, they experienced a significant reduction in amputation-associated pain.
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ethnogarden Extract
Date: November 20, 2005 at 9:55:33 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
Can anyone confirm the actual composition of ibogaine in the ethnogarden extract. In one report I heard its 60% ibogaine and 40% remaining alkaloids.
Is that true?
I want to list extract sources that I trust and also I am going to look into those extract deaths and make a second table (I still need to confirm the details on the current table as I am not altogether convinced of what is there). It seems to be that its worth being aware of the pros and cons of both forms of eboga and to use appropriately without prejudice 🙂
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Carol Ann <saffireskyes@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane- Serotonin – Antidepressants
Date: November 20, 2005 at 9:38:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> An M.D. in Duluth runs a non-prescription-drug Mental Health Clinic, and
> uses 5HTP on almost all of his patients who show depression, insomnia,
> etc. He swears by it. I’ve been using it just to help maintain my
> sleep, as it is breaking up due to my age (72 y.o.). Certainly seems
> harmless and may be doing some good. No side effects, but at least I
> have the assurance that my body can maybe make the serotonin it needs.
> The psychiatric antidepressant drugs DON’T MAKE serotonin, they just
> unbalance the body’s destruction of serotonin, and in doing so are
> Habit-Forming, leading to “withdrawal symptoms” when the
> anti-depressants are stopped. Anybody coming off SSRIs should use
> this! Good luck. Dr. Ed
1.  Opinion – Vera Hassner Sharav
2.  THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and SCIENCE JOURNAL
___________________________________________________________________________
ALLIANCE FOR HUMAN RESEARCH PROTECTION (AHRP)
Promoting Openness, Full Disclosure, and Accountability www.ahrp.org
One after another of psychiatry’s theoretical constructs and therapeutic armamentarium have been knocked down and relegated to the dust-heap of pseudo-scientific history.  None of psychiatry’s claims have withstood the test of scientific scrutiny.  The very core upon which psychiatry’s practice guidelines are based–using drugs to restore a “chemical imbalance” in the brain– has been shown to be nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.
Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo, Ph.D., the authors of “Serotonin and depression: A disconnect between the advertisements and the scientific literature,” published in PLoS Medicine, have delivered a decisive blow to psychiatry’s unubstantiated claim about a “chemical imbalance” in the brain of people who suffer from depression –or other psychological / emotional ailments.
The article, by a professor of anatomy and a doctoral student, is receiving wide attention both in the general and medical news media–Nature, WebMD, Medscape, UPI, New Scientist, the Wall Street Journal.
When confronted with evidence refuting this mantra of biological psychiatry, Wayne Goodman, chair of the FDA’s psychopharmacologic advisory committee admited in The New Scientist, that the “chemical imbalance” story is but a “useful metaphor.”
WSJ health columnist, Sharon Begley, points out that “For many, SSRIs help little, if at all.  To do better, we have to get the science right.”
But instead of science, the public and health care professionals have been fed a bill of goods:
“Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil ads and glowing accounts in the press have turned patients with depression into veritable pharmacologists, able to rattle off” the serotonin chemical imbalance script they have been fed by SSRI drug manufacturers and the psychiatric establishment.  But Lacasse and Leo found that: “Not a single peer-reviewed article …  support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder.”
“Low serotonin levels no more cause depression than low aspirin levels cause headache.
Yet, not only company advertisements but leading psychiatrists have deluded the public for decades with such false claims:
To cite but two examples:
NYU Child Study Center website assures families:
“Our faculty and staff have special expertise in dealing with all aspects of Depressive Disorders.” Then proceeds to state:  “Depression is most likely due to an inherited predisposition to a chemical imbalance in the brain.”
See:  http://aboutourkids.org/aboutour/disorders/depressive.html
Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons Kreichman PET Center lists two courses offered by John Mann, MD.
“4294 PET Mapping of Serotonin Transporters …Find out if / what changes in brain chemistry can cause an episode of depression.  Serotonin is an important chemical in the brain and deficiency of serotonin is thought to underlie major depression.”
3752 In Vivo PET Imaging of the Serotonin Transporter (SERT)  and 5HTiA Receptor in Bipolar Disorder.  Identify changes in brain chemistry that may cause an episode of depression and/or be associated with suicidal behaviors.” For more information, please contact Dr.  Mann at 212-543-5571.
In 1995, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Research Award went to Dr.  Mann “for his breakthrough research on serotonin levels as a predictor of suicide risk.  Dr.  Mann’s research has helped to uncover the chemical imbalances that occur in depressed patients, and his work on hormonal abnormalities in suicidal patients has fostered the development of tests that predict suicide risk.  His studies of the different tests measuring perturbations in the brain=B9s secretion of the hormone serotonin have contributed substantially to recent advances in the field.”
Begley correctly observes that the false “chemical imbalance”  premise is misdirecting patients away from potentially better therapeutic options: “The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping patients from a therapy that will help them more in the long term.  The relapse rate for patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior psychotherapy.”
Indeed, unsubstantiated pronouncements by psychiatry’s leadership gave the mental health industry and its patient advocacy front groups pseudo-scientific arguments with which to equate mental illness to physical illnesses–such as diabetes (for which insulin is needed to balance blood-sugar level).
This patently false comparison gave the psychotropic drug lobby–which includes the National Institute of Mental Health and state mental health agencies–ammunition with which to lobby for drug budget parity.  They lobbied for the latest, most expensive medicines to restore a “chemical imbalance” in mental disorders–a claim that Dr.  Goodman acknowledges is nothing but “a useful metaphor.”
That “useful metaphor” was used to deceive patients and the public and to divert health care funds from essential medicines to pay for drugs whose benefit is now largely in doubt, and whose severe adverse effects are undermining patients’ physical and mental health.
Dr.  Goodman admits that he has never revealed the truth to his patients– “I can’t get myself to say that.”
The fact is the psychiatric establishment has been concealing the truth about the lack of scientific evidence behind all of its theoretical constructs and armamentarium.
Contact: Vera Hassner Sharav
212-595-8974=20 veracare@ahrp.org <mailto:veracare@ahrp.org>
_________________________________________________
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL SCIENCE JOURNAL=20 By SHARON BEGLEY
http://online.wsj.com/img/colhed_begley_sharon.jpg
Some Drugs Work To Treat Depression, But It Isn’t Clear How November 18, 2005; Page B1 Hardly any patients know how Lipitor lowers cholesterol, how Lotensin reduces blood pressure, or even how ibuprofen erases headaches.  But when it comes to Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil, ads and glowing accounts in the press have turned patients with depression into veritable pharmacologists, able to rattle off how these “selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors” keep more of the brain chemical serotonin hanging around in synapses, correcting the neurochemical imbalance that causes depression.
There is only one problem.  “Not a single peer-reviewed article … support[s] claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder,” scientists write in the December issue of the journal PLoS Medicine.
Indeed, a steady drip of studies have challenged the “serotonin did it” hypothesis.  A 2003 mouse experiment suggested that SSRIs work by inducing the birth and growth of new brain neurons, not by monkeying with serotonin.
In March, a review of decades of research concluded that something other than “changes in chemical balance might underlie depression.” And as Jeffrey Lacasse and Jonathan Leo write in PLoS Medicine, although ads for SSRIs say they correct a chemical imbalance, “there is no such thing as a scientifically correct ‘balance’ of serotonin.”
How did so many smart people get it so wrong?  Medicinal chemist Derek Lowe, who works in drug development for a pharmaceutical firm, offered an explanation in his “In the Pipeline” blog.  “I worked on central nervous system drugs for eight years, and I can confidently state that we know just slightly more than jack” about how antidepressants work.
It is not for lack of trying.  In 1965, psychiatrist Joseph Schildkraut of Harvard University suggested that a deficiency of a brain chemical causes depression.  With the success of drugs that block the reuptake of these chemicals, that idea started to look pretty good.
Yet the evidence was always circumstantial.  You can’t measure serotonin in the brains of living human beings.  The next best thing, measuring the compounds that serotonin breaks down to in cerebrospinal fluid, suggested that clinically depressed patients had less of it than healthy people did.
But it was never clear whether depression caused those low levels, or vice versa.  A 2002 review of these early experiments took them to task for such flaws.
There had always been data that don’t fit the serotonin-imbalance theory.
Depleting people’s serotonin levels sometimes changed their mood for the worse and sometimes didn’t.  Sending serotonin levels through the roof didn’t help depression, a study found as early as 1975.
There is little doubt that the SSRIs do what their name says, keeping more serotonin in the brain’s synapses.  But the fact “that SSRIs act on the serotonin system does not mean that clinical depression results from a shortage of serotonin,” says Dr.  Leo, professor of anatomy at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, Bradenton, Fla.  No more so, anyway, than the fact that steroid creams help rashes means that rashes are caused by a steroid shortage.
A clue to how SSRIs do work comes from how long they take to have any effect.  They rarely make a dent in depression before three weeks, and sometimes take eight weeks to kick in.  But they affect serotonin levels right away.  If depression doesn’t lift despite that serotonin hit, the drugs must be doing something else; it’s the something else that eases depression.
The best evidence so far is that the something else is neurogenesis — the birth of new neurons.  When scientists led by Rene Hen of Columbia University and Ronald Duman of Yale blocked neurogenesis in mice, SSRIs had no effect.
When neurogenesis was unimpeded, SSRIs made the mice less anxious and depressed — for rodents.  As best scientists can tell, SSRIs first activate the serotonin system, which is somehow necessary for neurogenesis.  That is what takes weeks.
Claiming that depression results from a brain-chemical imbalance, as ads do, is problematic on several fronts.  Patients who believe this are more likely to demand a prescription.  If you have a disease caused by too little insulin, you take insulin; if you have one caused by too little serotonin, you take serotonin boosters.
Most people treated for depression get pills rather than psychotherapy, and this week a study from Stanford University reported that drugs have been supplanting psychotherapy for depressed adolescents.  Clinical guidelines call for using both, and for psychotherapy to be the first-line treatment for most kids.  Psychotherapy “can be as effective as medications” for major depression, concluded a study in April of 240 patients, in the Archives of General Psychiatry.  Numerous other studies find the same.
The hegemony of the serotonin hypothesis may be keeping patients from a therapy that will help them more in the long term.  The relapse rate for patients on pills is higher than for those getting cognitive-behavior psychotherapy.
Some 19 million people in the U.S.  suffer from depression in any given year.
For many, SSRIs help little, if at all.  To do better, we have to get the science right.
Write to Sharon Begley at sciencejournal@wsj.com <mailto:sciencejournal@wsj.com>
_____________________________________________________________
NewScientist.com <http://www.newscientist.com/>
Television adverts for antidepressants cause anxiety
* 12 November 2005
* From New Scientist Print Edition.
ADVERTS that claim depression is caused by a chemical imbalance, and that antidepressants correct it, are false and should be banned, say two mental health specialists.
Popular antidepressants such as Prozac and Celexa block the uptake of the neurotransmitter serotonin and have been shown to be slightly better than placebo in treating depression.  But low serotonin levels are no more the cause of depression than low aspirin levels are the cause of headaches, argue Jonathan Leo at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine in Bradenton, Florida, and Jeffrey Lacasse at Florida State University in Tallahassee (Public Library of Science Medicine, DOI:
10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392).
“It has become an absolute mainstay of popular culture,” says Leo.  “But there’s very little support for this.  We really don’t know what chemicals are involved.”
Wayne Goodman, chair of the psychopharmacologic advisory committee of the US Food and Drug Administration admits they have a point.  He calls the chemical imbalance story a “useful metaphor” but says it is never one he uses when talking to patients.  “I can’t get myself to say that.”
The Irish Medicines Board, the equivalent of the FDA in Ireland, recently banned GlaxoSmithKline from making similar claims in information for patients.  Leo and Lacasse want the FDA to follow suit.
Beatriz <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com> wrote:
I disagree with Jon. I have been using it for the last 5 years and it has
helped me with reducing the intensity and occurrence of my migraines as well
as with the quality of my sleep. I am 47. My father, who is in his 70s,
started taking it recently to get off benzos and is also benefiting from it
much in the same way and he claims that it has also helped him with his
rather extreme mood swings.
Beatriz
—–Original Message—–
From: jon [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:44 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
5-HTP isn’t generally particularly effective, as it does not readily
cross the blood brain barrier. Any beneficial effects from it are likely
a placebo effect.
Best regards,
Carol
_______________________________
Never Accept Only Two Choices in Life.
The problems of Today cannot be solved by the same thinking that created them.
-Al Einstein.
Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
From: Morning Wood <morning_wood263@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga — The Play
Date: November 20, 2005 at 7:44:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://hospaud.org/hai/cep/describe.htm
To attend a performance or to be a volunteer audio
describer
please contact Tricia Hennessey at (212) 575-7663
or THennessey@hospaud.org.
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@wiretap.com> wrote:
Schaeberle Studio Theater, 41 Park Row, NYC.  10th
Floor
(Across the street from City Hall Park)
IBOGA
By Jeffrey Israel
Directed by Kayla Lian Israel-Ogulnik
NOVEMBER 17 – 20
Thurs., Fri., Sat. at 8:00;
Sat. & Sun. at 2:00;
For further information, please contact:
Kayla: 352/359.1034
The premiere and an ibogaine panel, was last night.
It wasn’t
publicized because the theatre was sold out.  There
may or may not be
tickets left for this evening (prolly not, since
this is being posted
kinda late); but tickets ARE available for the
weekend shows.
Apparently it rocks the fuck out.  So go check it
out if you’re near
the NYC area.
Patrick
/]=———————————————————————=[\
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__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail – PC Magazine Editors’ Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: “Beatriz” <beatrizbrasil@netvigator.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
Date: November 20, 2005 at 5:22:54 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I disagree with Jon. I have been using it for the last 5 years and it has
helped me with reducing the intensity and occurrence of my migraines as well
as with the quality of my sleep. I am 47. My father, who is in his 70s,
started taking it recently to get off benzos and is also benefiting from it
much in the same way and he claims that it has also helped him with his
rather extreme mood swings.
Beatriz
—–Original Message—–
From: jon [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 3:44 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
5-HTP isn’t generally particularly effective, as it does not readily
cross the blood brain barrier. Any beneficial effects from it are likely
a placebo effect.
This is an over-the-counter “health food,” only an amino-acid (normally
in several foods), but is the PRECURSOR of serotonin in the body, and
making serotonin needs tryptophane.
An M.D. in Duluth runs a non-prescription-drug Mental Health Clinic, and
uses 5HTP on almost all of his patients who show depression, insomnia,
etc.  He swears by it.  I’ve been using it just to help maintain my
sleep, as it is breaking up due to my age (72 y.o.).  Certainly seems
harmless and may be doing some good.  No side effects, but at least I
have the assurance that my body can maybe make the serotonin it needs.
The psychiatric antidepressant drugs DON’T MAKE serotonin, they just
unbalance the body’s destruction of serotonin, and in doing so are
Habit-Forming, leading to “withdrawal symptoms” when the
anti-depressants are stopped.  Anybody coming off SSRIs should use
this!  Good luck.  Dr. Ed
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 20, 2005 at 1:56:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
One day ” Love is All there is, All is Love, there is nothing else”
Next day, ” FUKEN COMP”,
If I was sober, I could pount out the discrepancies here.
Luv ya Matt!
Bee
Don Patton wrote:
I think  I love him, but not as much as Kirk. Kirk is blatant mad love, kinda odd, but needed, fills a void, she is so clear, closed a gap that I would have unsubscribed.
Thanx
Kirk wrote:
Nahh Matt is a girl…. Hahhahahahahahahahahah
(ducking……)
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2005 4:54 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Matt really cracks me up. One day, he kant spel fur shit, then produces a word document beautifully written. Bet there is a girl involved here???

just pondering, don

CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Wow! Thanks Matt! What an experience! Your recall of it is so detailed. Does everyone remember everything so well? My memory sucks! Knowing the little bit about Ibogaine that I know, you are supposed to remember …..it would aid in your enlightenment which aids you in staying drug free. Right?
Callie
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 20, 2005 at 1:19:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think  I love him, but not as much as Kirk. Kirk is blatant mad love, kinda odd, but needed, fills a void, she is so clear, closed a gap that I would have unsubscribed.
Thanx
Kirk wrote:
Nahh Matt is a girl…. Hahhahahahahahahahahah
(ducking……)
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2005 4:54 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Matt really cracks me up. One day, he kant spel fur shit, then produces a word document beautifully written. Bet there is a girl involved here???

just pondering, don

CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Wow! Thanks Matt! What an experience! Your recall of it is so detailed. Does everyone remember everything so well? My memory sucks! Knowing the little bit about Ibogaine that I know, you are supposed to remember …..it would aid in your enlightenment which aids you in staying drug free. Right?
Callie
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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 20, 2005 at 12:30:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nahh Matt is a girl…. Hahhahahahahahahahahah
(ducking……)
From: Don Patton [mailto:SuperBee@Tstar.net] 
Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2005 4:54 p.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Matt really cracks me up. One day, he kant spel fur shit, then produces a word document beautifully written. Bet there is a girl involved here???

just pondering, don

CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Wow! Thanks Matt! What an experience! Your recall of it is so detailed. Does everyone remember everything so well? My memory sucks! Knowing the little bit about Ibogaine that I know, you are supposed to remember …..it would aid in your enlightenment which aids you in staying drug free. Right?
Callie
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From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 19, 2005 at 10:53:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Matt really cracks me up. One day, he kant spel fur shit, then produces a word document beautifully written. Bet there is a girl involved here???
just pondering, don
CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Wow! Thanks Matt! What an experience! Your recall of it is so detailed. Does everyone remember everything so well? My memory sucks! Knowing the little bit about Ibogaine that I know, you are supposed to remember …..it would aid in your enlightenment which aids you in staying drug free. Right?
Callie
/]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] test
Date: November 19, 2005 at 7:59:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
test     test        test
From: <slowone@hush.ai>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ot) Trepanation??? vector wtf??? lol
Date: November 19, 2005 at 2:57:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
About whether Eastern European women who have been lured into
enslaved prostitution really are using it as a cover story for what
they are doing on purpose, just to avoid bad reputations:
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:57:33 -0800 Day Brown <daybrown@artelco.com>
wrote:
Eastern Europe has been a brutal place for millennia. Count
Dracula?
America has been a brutal place for a while too. The people there
shoot each other a lot because of all the guns, not to mention all
the serial killer sadists, mothers killing their children and so
forth. And they exterminated many of the indigenous tribes. And
they go and bomb and use chemical weapons on other countries a lot
too.
My point being that I believe that desperation encourages young
women to believe that there can be a better future in being a nanny
abroad, that this can and does lead to exploitation, and that
stereotypes like Dracula aren’t evidence to the contrary. Do a
search on the net for more of an idea of the cost to actual humans
in our time.
Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required
http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480
Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail
https://www.hushssl.com?l=485
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From: jon <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
Date: November 19, 2005 at 2:44:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
5-HTP isn’t generally particularly effective, as it does not readily cross the blood brain barrier. Any beneficial effects from it are likely a placebo effect.
This is an over-the-counter “health food,” only an amino-acid (normally in several foods), but is the PRECURSOR of serotonin in the body, and making serotonin needs tryptophane.
An M.D. in Duluth runs a non-prescription-drug Mental Health Clinic, and uses 5HTP on almost all of his patients who show depression, insomnia, etc.  He swears by it.  I’ve been using it just to help maintain my sleep, as it is breaking up due to my age (72 y.o.).  Certainly seems harmless and may be doing some good.  No side effects, but at least I have the assurance that my body can maybe make the serotonin it needs.  The psychiatric antidepressant drugs DON’T MAKE serotonin, they just unbalance the body’s destruction of serotonin, and in doing so are Habit-Forming, leading to “withdrawal symptoms” when the anti-depressants are stopped.  Anybody coming off SSRIs should use this!  Good luck.  Dr. Ed
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From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] 5 hydroxy-tryptophane
Date: November 19, 2005 at 2:31:43 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is an over-the-counter “health food,” only an amino-acid (normally in several foods), but is the PRECURSOR of serotonin in the body, and making serotonin needs tryptophane.
An M.D. in Duluth runs a non-prescription-drug Mental Health Clinic, and uses 5HTP on almost all of his patients who show depression, insomnia, etc.  He swears by it.  I’ve been using it just to help maintain my sleep, as it is breaking up due to my age (72 y.o.).  Certainly seems harmless and may be doing some good.  No side effects, but at least I have the assurance that my body can maybe make the serotonin it needs.  The psychiatric antidepressant drugs DON’T MAKE serotonin, they just unbalance the body’s destruction of serotonin, and in doing so are Habit-Forming, leading to “withdrawal symptoms” when the anti-depressants are stopped.  Anybody coming off SSRIs should use this!  Good luck.  Dr. Ed
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Date: November 19, 2005 at 8:44:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I really like you a lot Lee. I love what you’re doing with ibogaine, for YOURSELF.
You go.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —–
From: Lee Albert
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Hi Callie,
I live in the south of Spain in a very nice arabic/christian/jewish city, historically speaking.
I take ibogaine about 2 times a month at the moment and with that I move from one particular issue to another and simply rewire my attitude as much as possible once I recognise my actouts and the associated issues – what you seek is key.
I need regular work at the moment as I have experienced different waves of trauma working their way through me. Mostly old but one very potent one in the past 9 years.
One might ask is ibogaine doing anything for me. The answer is resoundedly yes as I note the texture of the trauma working its way though me and the realisations I normally run from coming into mind – thats vital in some cases for completion. With that I get an associated release of symptoms and clear healing beyond a shadow of a doubt as my view of the situation goes from “stress” before healing to interest and curiosity at the ordinaryness of it all and how it works. Yet, it does take time, and trauma leaves in stages over months/years depending on its depth.
Maybe its the way I am wired. I don’t know. I simply connot tolerate trauma in my body. It pushes down on me, makes me nuerotic and its simply not who I am or want to be. It also messes badly with my relationships and so this work I do is a cleansing and a form of waking up from a deep sleep during the first part of my life.
Lee
CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/17/2005 9:15:42 AM Central Standard Time, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
These days i do about 500mg
Lee, how often do you do Ibogaine? I am sure I should know this but where do you live?
Callie
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Date: November 19, 2005 at 7:29:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Callie,
I live in the south of Spain in a very nice arabic/christian/jewish city, historically speaking.
I take ibogaine about 2 times a month at the moment and with that I move from one particular issue to another and simply rewire my attitude as much as possible once I recognise my actouts and the associated issues – what you seek is key.
I need regular work at the moment as I have experienced different waves of trauma working their way through me. Mostly old but one very potent one in the past 9 years.
One might ask is ibogaine doing anything for me. The answer is resoundedly yes as I note the texture of the trauma working its way though me and the realisations I normally run from coming into mind – thats vital in some cases for completion. With that I get an associated release of symptoms and clear healing beyond a shadow of a doubt as my view of the situation goes from “stress” before healing to interest and curiosity at the ordinaryness of it all and how it works. Yet, it does take time, and trauma leaves in stages over months/years depending on its depth.
Maybe its the way I am wired. I don’t know. I simply connot tolerate trauma in my body. It pushes down on me, makes me nuerotic and its simply not who I am or want to be. It also messes badly with my relationships and so this work I do is a cleansing and a form of waking up from a deep sleep during the first part of my life.
Lee
CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/17/2005 9:15:42 AM Central Standard Time, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
These days i do about 500mg
Lee, how often do you do Ibogaine? I am sure I should know this but where do you live?
Callie
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Ibogaine] 16 ibo short videos + 3 ibo radio interviews
Date: November 19, 2005 at 7:11:30 AM EST
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, Eboga List <eboga@elistas.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear List,
I have altered the Resources (links) page. It now contains a heading with 3 subheadings or sub-links pages to chose from:
www.my-eboga.com/links.html
1. Eboga & Ibogaine links:
2. Audio Visual links:
3. Psychology/Spirituality & Mythology links.
On the Audio-Visual page I have compiled 16 News/Pot-tv documentaries (come with some adds) along with 3 radio interviews – all ibogaine related. The vids are mostly Pot-tv productions. In time I do hope to add to this list from other sources. Anyone who has links can send them to me.
I haven’t listened to all yet but I do think this is worth looking at:
Pot- TV – The BC Marijuana Party Ibogaine Conference Part 2 1 hr 15 min 08 Nov, 2002 – Herbalist and Ibogaine treatment expert Nelson Comerci, who has worked with a range of medical practitioners, harm reduction specialists, individuals suffering with addiction and former addicts, discusses the basics of Ibogaine Therapy.
Lee
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 19, 2005 at 4:44:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Callie,
I hope you don’t mind if I make a point?
In my own experience the later part of the journey when one is lying and recalling or whatever, is a good time to note all that happened in the session as it comes back in bits and pieces like a review – certainly in lowdose mini-sessions. One can be lying there thinking I can’t remember a thing and then something will pop in your head and you go, oh yeh… And on it goes. A handheld recorder is a very useful thing. I usually carry it around for a day or 2 after.
Lee
CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
Wow! Thanks Matt! What an experience! Your recall of it is so detailed. Does everyone remember everything so well? My memory sucks! Knowing the little bit about Ibogaine that I know, you are supposed to remember …..it would aid in your enlightenment which aids you in staying drug free. Right?
Callie
Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@wiretap.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Iboga — The Play
Date: November 18, 2005 at 8:16:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Schaeberle Studio Theater, 41 Park Row, NYC.  10th Floor
(Across the street from City Hall Park)
IBOGA
By Jeffrey Israel
Directed by Kayla Lian Israel-Ogulnik
NOVEMBER 17 – 20
Thurs., Fri., Sat. at 8:00;
Sat. & Sun. at 2:00;
For further information, please contact:
Kayla: 352/359.1034
The premiere and an ibogaine panel, was last night.  It wasn’t publicized because the theatre was sold out.  There may or may not be tickets left for this evening (prolly not, since this is being posted kinda late); but tickets ARE available for the weekend shows.
Apparently it rocks the fuck out.  So go check it out if you’re near the NYC area.
Patrick
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: [DrugWar] Pot users less depressed, new study reports
Date: November 18, 2005 at 3:25:55 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
ALBANY, NEW YORK—In the largest-ever study of marijuana and depression,
to be published in the journal Addictive Behaviors, daily or weekly
marijuana users had fewer symptoms of depression than non-users.
Marijuana users were also more likely to report positive moods and fewer
somatic complaints such as sleeplessness. Noteworthy differences were
also found between those using marijuana for medical purposes and
non-medical or “recreational” users.
snip-
“Drug Czar John Walters has tried to frighten Americans about marijuana,
using exaggerated and incomplete data cherry-picked to support his
ideology,” said Rob Kampia, executive director of the Marijuana Policy
Project in Washington, D.C. “Science should be used to inform policy,
not manipulated to scare the public.”
snip-
more below
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: “Jules Siegel” <siegel@cafecancun.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: [DrugWar] Pot users less depressed, new study reports
http://www.mpp.org/releases/nr20051117.html
New Study: Marijuana Users Less Depressed
Largest-Ever Study of Marijuana, Depression Finds Fewer Depressive Symptoms, Better Mood
[Press release]
ALBANY, NEW YORK—In the largest-ever study of marijuana and depression, to be published in the journal Addictive Behaviors, daily or weekly marijuana users had fewer symptoms of depression than non-users. Marijuana users were also more likely to report positive moods and fewer somatic complaints such as sleeplessness. Noteworthy differences were also found between those using marijuana for medical purposes and non-medical or “recreational” users.
The new research appears to contradict statements by some government officials suggesting that marijuana is a cause of depression. For example, in a May 3, 2005, press release from the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, ONDCP Director John Walters said, “Marijuana use, particularly during the teen years, can lead to depression, thoughts of suicide and schizophrenia.”
“Not only does marijuana not cause depression, it looks like it may actually alleviate it,” said Mitch Earleywine, co-author of the new study and associate professor of psychology at the University at Albany, State University of New York.
Earleywine and co-investigator Thomas F. Denson of the University of Southern California used an Internet questionnaire that allowed them to survey a very large sample of marijuana users and non-users, totaling over 4,400 participants. Use of the Internet also made it possible to include highly depressed or marijuana-involved participants who might be unable or unwilling to participate in in-person or telephone surveys.
Participants were asked to report their use of marijuana and were divided into three categories: daily users, those who used marijuana within the last month but no more than once per week (weekly users) and those who had never used marijuana in their lifetime (non-users). Depression and related issues were assessed using the Center for Epidemiologic Studies Depression scale, a standard tool for researching depression and associated symptoms.
Both daily and weekly marijuana users had significantly lower levels of depression and higher levels of positive mood than non-users. Weekly users also had lower levels of somatic complaints such as sleeplessness. Effects were generally large, with marijuana users approximately 30% less depressed than non-users.
The study is the first to specifically look at depression in medical marijuana users as compared to non-medical users. The most common complaints listed by medical users surveyed were nausea, vomiting, cancer, attention deficit and poor appetite. Medical users generally were more depressed and had more somatic complaints than non-medical users, but still reported fewer such symptoms than non-users.
“Those who use marijuana to battle the symptoms of illness may be depressed because of their illness, not because of marijuana,” Earleywine said. “Studies that do not identify medical use might falsely implicate marijuana, rather than sickness, as the cause of depressed feelings.”
The new study adds to a growing body of knowledge suggesting that marijuana’s active components, called cannabinoids, may be beneficial in certain psychological disorders. In a review published this May in the Journal of Psychopharmacology, researchers form the University of Newcastle upon Tyne in Great Britain noted, “Patient reports and observations, backed by known pharmacology, suggest that the cannabis derivatives delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and cannabidiol (CBD) may have mood stabilizing properties,” including anti-depressant and anti-anxiety effects.
“Drug Czar John Walters has tried to frighten Americans about marijuana, using exaggerated and incomplete data cherry-picked to support his ideology,” said Rob Kampia, executive director of the Marijuana Policy Project in Washington, D.C. “Science should be used to inform policy, not manipulated to scare the public.”
With more than 18,000 members and 120,000 e-mail subscribers nationwide, the Marijuana Policy Project is the largest marijuana policy reform organization in the United States. MPP works to minimize the harm associated with marijuana—both the consumption of marijuana and the laws that are intended to prohibit such use. MPP believes that the greatest harm associated with marijuana is imprisonment. For more information, please visit http://www.MarijuanaPolicy.org.
REFERENCE: Denson, Thomas F. and Earleywine, Mitchell, “Decreased Depression in Marijuana Users,” Addictive Behaviors, in press, available at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03064603.
JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764 77501-Cancun Q. Roo Mexico
http://www.cafecancun.com/bookarts
Newsroom-l, news and issues for journalists
http://www.newsroom-l.net/blog
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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Date: November 18, 2005 at 12:40:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/17/2005 9:15:42 AM Central Standard Time, myeboga@yahoo.co.uk writes:
These days i do about 500mg
Lee, how often do you do Ibogaine? I am sure I should know this but where do you live?
Callie
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 18, 2005 at 12:38:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Wow! Thanks Matt! What an experience! Your recall of it is so detailed. Does everyone remember everything so well? My memory sucks! Knowing the little bit about Ibogaine that I know, you are supposed to remember …..it would aid in your enlightenment which aids you in staying drug free. Right?
Callie
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] send good vibes
Date: November 18, 2005 at 11:36:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
consider them sent, I’ve got a few extra (that considering how up and down I’ve been lately I should maybe hold on to, but that would be greedy, so again, consider the postive vibes sent your friend’s way) at the moment.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: matthew zielinski
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:17 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] send good vibes
hey people
pls send positive vibes to a friend who will be having a session tomorow afternoon….the more the merrier :}
a candle is burning for u already my friend
with love
matt
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] book release parties news
Date: November 18, 2005 at 11:16:55 AM EST
To: “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all,
  We had my new book release shin-dig last night, but everyone really turned up to hear and see Graham Hancock talk about his new book, “Supernatural: Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind,” and his presentation, which we held at Alex Gray’s Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, was incredible and perfect for such a venue too. I mean it, we had a HUGE overflow crowd, I’d estimate at least 300 people crammed into that place last night, with both the main gallery and the Room of Sacred Mirrors (where they had tv monitors set up) were both full to standing room (well, the Room of Mirrors wasn’t quite standing room only, but still, there were a lot of people in there). Then, some of us got to hand out in Alex’s inner sanctum in the back of the gallery, where his half-finished paintings sit, some older stuff, and other amazing art was all over the place, and if it weren’t for all that smoke clouding the air and my eyes (not to mention a bit of my brain) they have been REALLY brilliant in their colors and beauty- as it was they still rocked and the evening went perfectly. I couldn’t have asked for a more fun book release party- except for last year’s, when we had strippers on the bar and V and I dj’d- that was a pretty good party too- last night wasn’t so much a party as it was a presentation and lecture, and it rocked. Graham Hancock is definitely one of my inspirations, and I don’t care what anyone else thinks. He’s awesome and a great guy too, as is his wife and photographer Santha Faiia. Graham’s lecture on hallucinogenic plants and the question as to whether the mind is “creating” or “receiving” “hallucinations” was totally and completely wonderful, a surprise sorta in that I thought he was going to be discussing the chapters he contributed to the new book, but I didn’t care one bit. His presentation, now on my own computer too due to his paranoia about technical problems hitting at the last moment, is absolutelyy worth catching, so if you see him listed as appearing in your city, go check it out if you are at all interested in the topic of why mankind suddenly, after so many thousands of years of nothing, was suddenly painting, creating art, and thinking.
(btw, I’m still feeling minor withdrawals, but also feel so damned good about things, at least today, that I simply don’t care about how icky my skin and muscles, not to mention all that pain in my back and leg, feel.)
  The next book thing/reading/panel discussion I’m taking part in is at Manhattan’s Museum of Sex, on Dec. 1, another Thursday, so if you’re in town make plans to come.
Here’s the notice:
WHEN:
Thursday, December 1, 2005, 7pm – 9pm
WHERE:
MUSEUM OF SEX
233 Fifth Avenue (@ 27th Street)
New York, NY 10016
212-689-6337
www.museumofsex.org
$10 for adults and $8 for students/members
WHAT:
Everything You Know About Sex is Wrong
Reading, Panel and Q&A
Moderated by Disinformation’s “Wicked Warlock” Richard Metzger
Come celebrate the release of Disinformation’s new book
EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT SEX IS WRONG
The Disinformation Guide to the Extremes of Human Sexuality
(and everything in between)
Edited by RUSS KICK
Scheduled to participate:
Writer and editor Rachel Kramer Bussel (Penthouse, Village Voice)
Writer/performer Christen Clifford (Babylove, 17 Guys I F**ked)
Author Martha Cornog (The Big Book of Masturbation)
Author Jay Gertzman (Bookleggers and Smuthounds: The Trade in Eroitca, 1920-1940)
Writer Jon Hart (New York Times, Village Voice)
Writer and Adult Marketing Nerd Libby Lynn (Rollertrain blog)
Author Rachel Maines (The Technology of Orgasm, Asbestos and Fire)
Author Jack Murnighan (The Naughty Bits, Classic Nasty)
Author, actor, DJ, musician, psychonaut, and explorer Preston Peet
Award winning journalist and writer Diane Petryk-Bloom
Pervert, smut peddler, and nakedteer Audacia Ray ($pread magazine)
Musician and Author Jen Sincero (The Straight Girl’s Guide to Sleeping with Chicks)
Award-winning author, columnist, editor, director and sex educator Tristan Taormino
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick227@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] RE: ibogaine and REM
Date: November 18, 2005 at 10:39:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey Luke,
For me, I’m pretty sure the lack of REM sleep post-ibogaine some people
experience (and that they experience it as really a drag) is the drug
continuing to try and open the body up and allow feelings out. I would have
to recommend some form of early morning catharsis as the best way of dealing
with it. Osho Dynamic Meditation is good, or something similar.
I’ve seen time and again, personally and in my therapist role, that early
morning REM seems to integrate unresolved unconscious issues only on a
superficial level and that, every now and again, the body seeks to deprive
one of it as a means to try and open us up more.
Nick
—–Original Message—–
From: Luke Christoffersen [mailto:luke.christoffersen@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 November 2005 23:15
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] RE: ibogaine and REM
I’ve never been able to figure out sleeping patterns.  I find it much
harder to wake up the last year or so after ibogaine. It takes me
longer to wake up and be alert, I feel much worse in the morning and
wake up at night.
I took melatonin a few times.  I think it’s supposed to increase REM
sleep.  I found mself having more lucid dreams and quite detailed
about thinks in my past.  It seems to enhance certain aspects of
memory.  Also if I drank alot of alcohol I would sometimes have really
detailed dreams about childhood stuff the following night.  Perhaps
rebound REM?
On 11/14/05, Nick Sandberg <nick227@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
—–Original Message—–
From: Edfriedrichs@aol.com [mailto:Edfriedrichs@aol.com]
Sent: 14 November 2005 04:56
To: nick227@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Thanx, Nick!
Appreciate your interest and comments.  Love your repeated
poetic metaphor
of “underground!”  To make the “awareness” sound a little more
“scientific,”
consider the possibility that dreaming (REM-Stage Sleep) provides that
awareness, IF we get enough of it!  Carl Jung, an eminent dream analyst,
would certainly agree with us.  As confusing as dreams can be (mine are
unanalysable!), they do seem to “heal” the slings and arrows of the day.
For all we know, dreaming enough may contribute to the creative
“Aha” ideas
we get during the day that come from “nowhere.”  Others hypothesize that
when we go deeply into “ourselves,” e.i. mystic states produced by
meditation, religious probing, etc., we do “find” God, or
better known as
THE source of truth, wisdom, humility and forgiveness.  Whadda ya think?
Since NREM Stage Sleep occurs mainly early in the night, and
REM-Stage Sleep
occurs later toward morning, when we shorten our sleep habits
to six, five
or four hours, we primarily lose REM Sleep.  All the drugs of
addiction (not
to mention most all psychiatric medica-tions!) ALSO suppress REM-Sleep,
leaving drug dependent folks severely deprived of REM-Sleep.
Almost too easy
an explanation!  Appreciatively, Dr. Ed
Hi Ed,
Thanks for the feedback. I would certainly agree that frequently dreams
appear to integrate and thus reduce the emotional charge of
some situations
playing on the psyche. About going in generally, and mystical
stuff, I’ve
always been a bit of the opinion that dreams are essentially pretty
superficial things and that the dreamstate isn’t in itself a
particularly
deep or mystical state of consciousness. I could be wrong. I guess,
traditionally, “God” seems to be regarded more likely to appear through
meditation than in dreamstates.
About the REM sleep of early morning, I find it hard to decide whether
losing it is actually a good or bad thing. It is not clear for
me. For sure,
we all like to have a good night’s rest and feel calm and ready for the
forthcoming day. However, in my therapist role, it is frequently evident
that reducing participant’s sleep in weekend therapy groups
brings them more
into their feelings and that this is useful in helping them become more
aware of their own internal processes and release internal
tensions. This
seems to me to relate to ibogaine treatment in that those who’ve done
ibogaine frequently relate that they have trouble sleeping for a period
afterwards. The implication, to my mind, is that morning REM
sleep might be
useful in resolving current emotional issues at a superficial level, but
that a more profound resolution can be had through REM
deprivation and some
form of integrative process (therapy). Thus, the drug is attempting to
deepen its issue-resolving work through giving some people REM
deprivation.
A few thoughts. What do you think?
I’ll cc this to the ibogaine as there might be people also
interested in REM
and ibogaine there. Hope you don’t mind.
All the best
Nick
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] send good vibes
Date: November 17, 2005 at 7:17:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com


hey people
pls send positive vibes to a friend who will be having a session tomorow afternoon….the more the merrier :}
a candle is burning for u already my friend
with love
matt
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: anti-deps
Date: November 17, 2005 at 2:39:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all, thanks for the input, that’s why I love you guyz n gals so much J
Feeling pretty good considering!!  Just the odd “zap” to my energy field, but, there’s so much going on cosmically ,believe it  or not, doesn’t matter… just the perfect time to come off them… not noticing it too much cos already space cadetted!!!!  Had a bit of a release session last night, but the whole while I was thinking how good it actually felt…. Heh, im a weirdo lol
Thanks again
Kirk xxxxxx
From: Matthew Shriver [mailto:matt@itsupport.net] 
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 7:35 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Coming off anti-depressants
Anti-depressants do not increase production of or substitute for serotonin or any other neurotransmitters.  They inhibit the normal reuptake by neurons.  I don’t know what this says about withdrawal symptoms from anti-depressants but I am sure that there is no sudden shift onto the body of production like there is with opiate withdrawal and endorphins.
From: shelley krupa [mailto:skrupa20022002@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:25 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Coming off anti-depressants
Hi All ,to the best of my understanding ,withdrawal is caused in part by the body having to produce its own serotonin ( or whatever neurotransmiters the ad was targeting)againa as well as the washout, I had a freing who had wd form prozac for 6 weeks,love shell

CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
As said previously, it depends on what you were on and how long you have taken it. Some antidepressants build a level in your body so to speak, before they are effective. I don’t know but seems to me that it might take a while for them to totally clear your system.
What were you taking and for how long? I will try to find answer for you if I could have that ifo.
Callie
Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
From: “Matthew Shriver” <matt@itsupport.net>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Coming off anti-depressants
Date: November 17, 2005 at 1:35:18 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Anti-depressants do not increase production of or substitute for serotonin or any other neurotransmitters.  They inhibit the normal reuptake by neurons.  I don’t know what this says about withdrawal symptoms from anti-depressants but I am sure that there is no sudden shift onto the body of production like there is with opiate withdrawal and endorphins.
From: shelley krupa [mailto:skrupa20022002@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:25 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Coming off anti-depressants
Hi All ,to the best of my understanding ,withdrawal is caused in part by the body having to produce its own serotonin ( or whatever neurotransmiters the ad was targeting)againa as well as the washout, I had a freing who had wd form prozac for 6 weeks,love shell

CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
As said previously, it depends on what you were on and how long you have taken it. Some antidepressants build a level in your body so to speak, before they are effective. I don’t know but seems to me that it might take a while for them to totally clear your system.
What were you taking and for how long? I will try to find answer for you if I could have that ifo.
Callie
Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] now G. Hancock and Supernatural review/was preston-insomnia
Date: November 17, 2005 at 10:16:01 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
thanks, it’s not easy. it’s pretty rough actually. I’ve been spending all morning thinking about the fact I could go out and buy dope to suppliment my meds, and not going out but sitting here instead, feeling like I’m having this freakin’ battle that just won’t quit in my head, “go ahead, do it, do it, do it,” etc, etc. And I’m having this book event tonight. Egad, so I’m not even eating the ms-contin I have for today yet, waiting as long as possible in hopes that if I take both that I have alloted myself together I’ll be able to manage the event without too much pain and withdrawals both.
Thanks for the well wishings and positive vibes.
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
—– Original Message —– From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] now G. Hancock and Supernatural review/was preston-insomnia
In a message dated 11/16/2005 12:27:38 AM Central Standard Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
Even in pretty steady
withdrawals- but fairly minor compared to some experiences (I am still
taking a small amount of opiates, so it’s not like I’m cold turkeying
completely, just very, very drastically reducing my intake)-
Preston, I am so impressed that you are doing this and amazed that you can take just a small amount of opiates while you are feeling like crap! I would never be able to do that! If I felt bad I would eat them all. You hang in there though….I am THRILLED that you are pulling this self-detox off (saying that with fingers crossed!).
Sending positive vibes your way!
Callie
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: APSAD conference in Melbourne. Day 3.
Date: November 17, 2005 at 10:33:36 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —– From: Andrew Byrne
To: ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 6:01 PM
Subject: APSAD conference in Melbourne. Day 3.
APSAD annual scientific conference.  Day three: Wednesday 9th November 2005.
The third day of the East Melbourne addiction meeting started with an up-date by Keith Humphreys on the place of Alcoholics Anonymous and other self-help groups in managing addictions.  He quoted the estimated staggering numbers of such groups as AA, NA, Alanon, Alateen, Cocaine Anon, etc, across the world.  While accepting that scientific proof of the benefits of such social interventions are not possible, he stated that numerous high quality studies showed that health budgets saved large sums from those who chose to use self-help rather than traditional medical services such as counselling, cognitive behavioural approaches and pharmacotherapies.  He also quoted one of the most convincing studies from 1981 in which not one patient who was ‘passively’ referred to AA actually attended a meeting.  This compared with 100% who had a personal telephone referral from an AA sponsor.  This is consistent with my own experience in simply recommending AA by handing a leaflet with dates, time and addresses of local meetings.
The next talk was by Annie Madden who spoke eloquently about ethics of research on subjects with drug and alcohol issues.  Ms Madden was commended for her work in various capacities with and for drug users in NSW and Canberra over many years.  This was backed up later by Adam Winstock who praised the Intravenous League for their cooperation and assistance in some of his novel research on drug diversion in South West Sydney.  In this parallel session he and his colleague Tony Jackson showed that in their diverse Health Service cohort both methadone and buprenorphine were diverted for numerous reasons.  Their findings indicated that about 5 per 1000 doses of buprenorphine were diverted.  This was more commonly reported from those treated in community pharmacies where time and other factors make effective direct supervision less practicable.  He said that one public clinic stated that they have had absolutely NO diversion yet his confidential questionnaire showed that the clinic had dozens of such instances reported by patients.  Dr Winstock takes a non-judgemental line in addressing diversion, treating each case individually and working on the issues leading to the apparent misuse of the prescribed medication.  He reminded us of two ways buprenorphine can be diverted, (1) obscuring the drug within the mouth and (2) secreting it elsewhere during administration.  These were reported to be equally prevalent in western Sydney. ‘Cracking’ the tablets to coarse granules was probably an effective strategy both in aiding absorption and preventing diversion.  However if tablets are pulverised to powder this can defeat both aims by creating either a milky solution which is swallowed or else forming a paste which is not absorbed at all well either.  [In our own service we usually break the tablets in two and to observe them ‘in situ’ at least twice before they have gone.]
The reasons respondents gave for diverting their medication included: (1) to take later in the day (2) to inject (3) to sell (4) to take a lower dose (5) to store (or ‘squirrel’ as Dr Bell terms it).  Dr Winstock speculated on the ‘big picture’ reasons for such diversion as being: (1) the continued shortage of treatment positions (2) constraints on such treatment (3) desire for lower maintenance doses (4) as a replacement for street heroin (ie for illicit purposes).  Overall he felt that diversion itself was prima facie evidence for a breakdown in the therapeutic relationship, rather than just a lack of understanding of motivations behind it.  He pointed out that especially since the ‘heroin drought’ buprenorphine and methadone can be excellent value on the streets, being cheap and longer acting.
Another important contribution on day three was Winstock’s other paper described three means of starting buprenorphine in an attempt to avoid early drop-outs.  His own elegant longitudinal study showed in a variety of community patients, those who were given over 17mg in the first three days of treatment had almost twice the chances of still being in treatment at 6 months as those given 17mg or less (54% vs. 29%).  He also found heavy heroin users had higher drop-out rates.  We were told that whether methadone or buprenorphine, the first few weeks are crucial since inadequate dosing may be the reason for some to drop-out.  The risk of early toxicity with methadone is far lower when using buprenorphine . hence his and others’ suggestion at this conference that we move away from the ‘start low – go slow’ approach and move to a ‘new paradigm’ for a ‘new drug’.  His preference was for 8mg on the first morning with an option for an extra 2-8mg later that day if desired.  Some follow on day 2 with 12mg or more if cravings, insomnia or drug use persist.  In our surgery we usually start with 4mg and repeat later in the day if needed (which it often is).
Nick Lintzeris then told us about his study from London (with Ridge, Gossop, Strang and Witton) looking at a large number of maintenance treatment starts (or re-starts) as to preference, experience of and actual prescription for four drugs: methadone, buprenorphine, lofexidine and dihydrocodeine.  He suggested that lofexidine ‘is hardly used any more in England’ and that ‘it is virtually the same as clonidine, except much more expensive’.  He showed many comparative figures, reflecting much work from his team, but which overall showed that most patients eventually got what they had expressed a preference for initially.  Because of the longer duration of action of (pure) buprenorphine, sufficient dose can be given to last 24 hours without causing the sedation which sometimes occurs with methadone.  This gives rise to the ‘clear-headed’ reports from some patients.  However, he also reminded us that many patients feel better on methadone, hence the need for individual choices, the only real other issue being pregnancy where buprenorphine is relatively contraindicated and the combination drugs completely contraindicated.
Nico Clark gave an illuminating talk on transferring in-patients from high dose methadone (between 40 and 100mg) to buprenorphine using clonidine and Valium.  While all were patients wishing to try buprenorphine, several had to return to methadone dissatisfied within 2 weeks of the transfer.  A significant proportion were only slightly uncomfortable and some had no withdrawal symptoms at all.  The methadone was stopped for a full 24 hours and where possible for 48 hours while close observations were done in the detoxification centre being used.
Suzi Nielsen spoke about the Melbourne experience with buprenorphine and benzodiazepines.  It was one of several descriptions during the conference which all seemed to be quite consistent.  A majority of opioid maintenance patients (up to two thirds) have used benzodiazepines in the past 6 months and about 10-20% are dependent at any one time.  One strategy was given from the Adelaide group presented by Kate Morefield on how to deal with this problem.  Following on the work of Rickells, they tested a protocol to put long-term dependent patients onto 40 weeks stepped reduction doses of long acting benzodiazepine, in this case clonazepam.  They used 5 weeks slow reductions by 25%, followed by 5 weeks plateau doses which was repeated in steps.  The final reductions were more individually tailored.  The drug was to be taken supervised on the same regimen as the opioid, from the same dispensary.  Matched benzo users in parallel and “usual” treatment were used as controls and at the end of 12 months, despite numerous relapses, far less benzodiazepine (about 75% less) was being consumed by the trial patients. Such interventions are unlikely to eliminate benzo use but should enable substantial reduction in overall use of the drug, consistent with harm reduction principles.  It is probably the responsibility of maintenance prescribers to address benzodiazepine use in their patients – yet many clinics and pharmacies still do not have a protocol of dispensing or administering for such dual dependencies.  Poisons regulations are not attuned to this in some states.  Community pharmacy may not be ideal for such treatment in new or unstable patients where there is a choice of a specialist clinic.  It may be that a subsidised PBS item number for ‘administration’ of a small quantity of diazepam could solve the major conundrum that when we prescribe less than 50 tablets it costs our patients more money.
Presentations on hepatitis C reminded us that 90% of such infections occur in drug users and it is the responsibility of every maintenance prescriber to address this disease.  Greg Dore and his group described early results of a multicentre trial of the treatment of ‘acute’ (or at least recently acquired) HCV using 24 weeks pegylated interferon.  The treatment looks promising in HCV but may not be effective in HIV co-infected patients.  Nick Walsh and Turning Point team are up-beat about a dependency clinic as a ‘one stop shop’ for addressing blood borne viruses (BBV).  Their abstract described the use of a peer counsellor to facilitate regular in-house blood testing to monitor the need for vaccination (HBV, HAV) and/or referral for biopsy.  They also dispense anti-virals at the clinic.  In the same bracket Ian Chaussivert points to the enormity of the problem by describing early numbers from their ‘clinic within a clinic’ started in January.  Out of an estimated 550 HCV carriers who have been in contact with their service, up to 200 may benefit from treatment.  In the first 5 months, they assessed 32 patients and two have commenced therapy while 4 await biopsy.  While these models may be very useful for New South Wales where a large proportion of patients are treated in clinics, other strategies are needed for other states and territories where community pharmacies deliver most opioid maintenance treatment.  A more traditional medical referral system requires that doctors ensure that their maintenance prescription patients have blood tests ordered and referred as appropriate.  A useful model might be Pap smears for cervical cancer which are now standard practice.  Ian Kronborg and colleagues related a slightly larger pilot study of 23 methadone patients prescribed ‘standard’ antiviral treatment of 24 or 48 weeks (40% genotype 1, 55% genotype 3, 16% already with cirrhosis).  We await further results after the full 50 outcomes have been tabulated.
I apologise if these summaries seem to be biased towards my own ‘medical’ interests.  In fact many other fascinating subjects were covered in this conference.  These included stimulant use and abuse, performance enhancing drugs, policy issues, injecting rooms, Aboriginal health, ethics, drugs and driving, alcohol “Interlock” ignition lock program, designer party drugs, withdrawal practices, drugs in pregnancy, specialist College policies, pain management and more.
It was disappointing that despite just receiving Commonwealth funding of up to 2 million dollars, those utilising naltrexone implants and performing rapid detoxification did not present any of their experimental findings.  We could sure use funding like that in Redfern where our patients often have to pay $2000 or more per year out of their own pockets for pharmacy dispensing of their medication.
Melbourne is a beautiful city and it is a good time of year to visit.  It was a frustration to have to stay indoors for the conference.  I hope most delegates from out of town managed to enjoy some of the city’s pleasures aside from the meeting.  Congratulations to the conference organisers and presenters.  The ever-present Walter Ling from California has said that he believes our annual APSAD conference is probably the worlds second largest and certainly most diverse dependency ‘talkfest’ (after the AATOD meeting which is held every 18 months in North America – next is April in Atlanta).
Comments by Andrew Byrne ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
 Dependency Medicine,
 75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
 New South Wales, 2016, Australia
 Email – ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
 Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2005/s1418817.htm
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From: shelley krupa <skrupa20022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Coming off anti-depressants
Date: November 17, 2005 at 10:24:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi All ,to the best of my understanding ,withdrawal is caused in part by the body having to produce its own serotonin ( or whatever neurotransmiters the ad was targeting)againa as well as the washout, I had a freing who had wd form prozac for 6 weeks,love shell
CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
As said previously, it depends on what you were on and how long you have taken it. Some antidepressants build a level in your body so to speak, before they are effective. I don’t know but seems to me that it might take a while for them to totally clear your system.
What were you taking and for how long? I will try to find answer for you if I could have that ifo.
Callie
Yahoo! FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Date: November 17, 2005 at 6:52:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi,
My 2 cents worth.
I expected after my first treatment to lose sleep but I don’t recall that happening. Maybe for a few days i slept a little less but nothing like the 3 months reported.
These days i do about 500mg and usually I sleep after about 8 hours for about 2 hours or so into the morning, then the same day I have a welcome siesta (I start my journeys the night before) and that night i am usually quite snug in bed – occasionally the need for sleep on this first night is less. However within a few days i am really tired and need a good sleep to make up for the sleep lost on the night of the session.
So I dont have these sleep issues except the first 12 to 18 hours after ingestion. I may recall having had a few low sleep days occasionally following a session but lack of sleep on a prolonged basis has never been my experience – maybe I will recall something later but right now thats how I remember it.
I have never taken ibo for drug dependence except to kick nicotine.
Lee
Mark Corcoran <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Randy. Thats exactly what I was saying but I just had the opportunity to sit down in front of my computer now. Lookin forward to some more venisin at Christmas time.
My own personal expereince; I took Ibogaine 3 times. The first treatment was for methadone and dope. 18 mg/kg flood and then 3mg/kg for 5 days. I got a good night sleep every night except the first night (obviously) although I have seen people literally sleep through the entire stage two.
Anyway, after my last dose of Ibogaine I immedaitely couldn’t sleep at all. It was an hour at best and gradually got a bit better every day but it took weeks. That lasted for at least a month or so.
Then unfortunately,  I started chipping again within 3 months or so. Without developing a habit I was lucky enough to take another 10 mg/kg within two weeks after my first get high. Obviously at that point I was on my way to being strung out again but I don’t think I was physically addicted yet. Again I didn’t sleep that first night but after that I went immedately back to a normal sleeping pattern the second night.
I put next to no clean time together after the second treatment. Then after 4 months of getting high and developing another full fledged habit shooting dope on the weekdays and trying desperately but to no avail to get clean by buying methadone bottles on the weekend I was again fortunate enough to do another full treatment 26 mg/kg. Again after my last treatment almost a year ago I didn’t sleep for almost 2 weeks. 1 hour here, another there.
So in my humble opinon , I’m going to assume that the insomnia was withdrawal related and I had no other symptoms.
I guess its different for everyone but for me the evidence is pretty ironclad. When I didn’t have a habit I slept and when I did I didn’t.
But who knows I could be wrong. -M.
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Preston: & Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:33:33 EST
In a message dated 11/15/05 9:16:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Edfriedrichs@aol.com writes:
“psychospiritual sessions” and “coke treatment:”  not sure what those amount to.  Explain…….   But it’s fine to question whether post-treatment insomnia is peculiar to Ibogaine Rx.  Dr. Ed
Ed, I think what is meant here is doing a treatment for spiritual purpose and cocaine not being an opiate but still being treatable with Ibogaine, people sleep a little easier after the session.          Randy
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Lee Albert <myeboga@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 17, 2005 at 6:36:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Matt,
Nicely written and very interesting.
I would like to put some questions if thats ok.
What dose did you take and could you tell us how many journeys you have taken, the doses and the time intervals between journeys? Where you relapsed on each occasion?
Thanks for sharing that,
Lee
matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
k lets try this
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Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing Process: www.my-eboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list for those already initiated: www.my-eboga.com/network.html.
From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 17, 2005 at 5:31:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks Matt.
Beautiful to read.
So very glad you are here with us today.
Kia Kaha my brother
Kirsty xx
From: matthew zielinski [mailto:mattzielinski@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 9:42 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP


k lets try this
Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*
From: Don Patton <SuperBee@Tstar.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 17, 2005 at 1:55:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Matt, that was beautiful!!!
matthew zielinski wrote:
k lets try this
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From: Carol Ann <saffireskyes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] my last ibo exp
Date: November 17, 2005 at 12:38:12 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It’s beautiful.
matthew zielinski <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi people
Here is a little description of my last ibo trip…yest was 8 weeks clean!! :}}…HOW FUKEN COOL IS TAHT!!!!
LOVE
MATT
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Best regards,
Carol
_______________________________
Never Accept Only Two Choices in Life.
The problems of Today cannot be solved by the same thinking that created them.
-Al Einstein.
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From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] on tomorrow’s Underground event in Manhattan
Date: November 16, 2005 at 9:51:42 PM EST
To: “Newsroom-L” <newsroom-l@lists.netspace.org>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0546,bosler,70050,15.html
Amazingly, they only mention the fact that it’s a book release shin-dig for the book Undergound (my new book, which looks great) as an aside, sort of an “oh yeah, btw, there’s this book he, G. Hancock contributed to that will also be discussed.” But any press is good press, right?
Peace and love,
Preston
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ot) Trepanation??? vector wtf??? lol
Date: November 16, 2005 at 7:20:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Eastern Europe has been a brutal place for millennia. Count Dracula?
And likewise, there is a cadre of women there who know this, learned
from their mothers or other women in their communities. They *never*
embraced Christian Fundamentalism, Puritanism, or the Protestant work
ethic. The romance movies had far less effect on them; their men had
mistresses, and still do. They thot the whole Monica thing with WJC
was ridiculous, and could not afford the myth of the loving nuclear
family to keep them out of the sex trade.
I don’t know what WJC is? Oh Yeah I see Clinton! Everyone has their
underlying agendas. The sex trafficers pray off the vulnerable.
Seems reasonable as far as it goes. But epidemiological studies now
show increasing rates of some kinds of mental pathologies are the
result of environmental pollution. The Autism rate, for instance,
went thru the roof in the Indian villages downwind from transnat
agribusiness cotton plantations in Bengal. That’s just Autism. We
quit using leaded gas cause it made kids stupid. What else is there
in the food, water, and indoor/outdoor air that causes pathologies,
and which pathologies are they?
I’m sure pollutions help cause some illnesses.  What I’m curious about
is what effects this money driven society will have on he future
generations mental health if childeren are neglected because both
parents are forced to work to make ends meet.
“Original Sin” is a *Christian* idea. It comes out of the Levantine myth
that says that sex is evil as a way of disempowering women. And that in
turn comes out of the scripture which was designed to pander to the
instincts of alpha males and justify what they do. Thus today, what we
read Joshua did to the Canaanites and Philistines we now call genocide,
which Jehovah was setup to justify to provide the “Promised Land”.
I agree that might be a way of disempowering women but I also think
that the males in power are acting out their own pain,of birth or
childhood, as a revenge for the suffering caused by the mother.
I dont deny that could be a factor. Look at “Demonic Males” by Wrangham
and Peterson, who report on a number of primate field studies of the
apes: Gorilla, Chimpanzee, Orangutan, & Bonobo. Their males went thru
the same birth process, but none of them were raised in a ghetto, and
some had competent mothers, some not, but there is little correlation
in their behavior either way. Some aggressive, some not.
I read some articles that finds a correlation in violence in those
monkeys raised by violent mothers.  Those raised by non violent
mothers didn’t grow up to be violent.  I think alot of humans suffer
more violence at birth.  Many with complications may be delivered by
violent means such as forceps.  They would have died in the wild.
I don’t buy the alpha male thing. If it were true all the leaders
would be that tall well build and good looking, perfect specimins.
This is not the case.  Hitler was a small man driven to take out his
own pain and insecurities on those around him.
Granted that we have the term from primate field studies, and that the
hominids are far more complex. So, while brute force is sufficient to
gain dominance in apes, more subtle forces are needed with hominids. I
see the popularity of WWF as reflective of the instinct for brute force,
but we all know the fans are not the kind of personalities that are then
put in power. Which is not to say that they would not *want* to be. The
WWF is a vicarious expression of the instinct. Likewise the DND computer
games, Rambo movies, etc.
I suspect people driven to gain power are driven by their own
childhood pain and helplessness.  I think there’s an unhealthy need to
be in control.  I always used to wonder why people who make a fortune
keep on driving at their business or whatever instead of enjoying what
they have.  I don’t think any amount of power can ever fullfill the
emptiness this people spend their lives supressing. With WWF people
escape for a while and live through their favorite wrestler.  I used
to watch it as a kid.
Like Hitler, timing is important. They’ve seen where primate females get
the idea that they had enough of the alpha male genes, and flee from him
such that the other males pick this up. They then begin to challenge the
old boy, taking him on one at a time. At some point, he gets tired, gets
unlucky, whatever, and a new alpha male results. Nevertheless, he still
must be fit, smart enough to see opportunity, and especially in hominids
be able to read the body language of others and respond with the correct
moves at the correct time. But good looks and charisma helps.
I’m not sure. I don’t know that much about these rituals and their
uses.Who knows why they need to do battle in the first place.
The conflict is to justify their existence. The alternative is the lack
of violence seen in matriarchic cultures. The main reason matriarchy
failed, was that the smart women in charge did *not* bear enough kids
to maintain their population relative to the breeding of airheads and
patriarchic cultures, and were eventually swept aside by hordes eager
for the kind of battle you refer to. Of course, as with prostitution,
there are many different reasons in particular cultures and persons, but
this aspect is common in all of them.
Joseph Campbell, among others, has noted that the onset of menses in
women was a big deal in the early agrarian communities- which tended
to be matriarchic. This makes sense. Even in hunting tribes, while the
men were out hunting, the women were expected to manage veggies in the
local ecosystem. 10,000 years ago, women got really go at it. But then,
as the bronze age and bladed weapons came in, alpha males took over, and
we see this bloodletting mimicked in male rituals.
And the problem is now, that the strong right arm sword in hand, which
has ruled the planet for 5000 years, is no longer sufficient to take
power. Smith & Wesson guarantee equal rights for women. The ultimate
weapon, which the alpha male leaders asked to be developed, Nukes, had
the result of making them all aware, that if a war started, it would be
the kings, not the grunts, who get to die first. A bellicose alpha male
attitude became increasingly obviously dangerous.
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From: “Mark Corcoran” <mcorcoran27@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Date: November 16, 2005 at 6:58:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks Randy. Thats exactly what I was saying but I just had the opportunity to sit down in front of my computer now. Lookin forward to some more venisin at Christmas time.
My own personal expereince; I took Ibogaine 3 times. The first treatment was for methadone and dope. 18 mg/kg flood and then 3mg/kg for 5 days. I got a good night sleep every night except the first night (obviously) although I have seen people literally sleep through the entire stage two.
Anyway, after my last dose of Ibogaine I immedaitely couldn’t sleep at all. It was an hour at best and gradually got a bit better every day but it took weeks. That lasted for at least a month or so.
Then unfortunately,  I started chipping again within 3 months or so. Without developing a habit I was lucky enough to take another 10 mg/kg within two weeks after my first get high. Obviously at that point I was on my way to being strung out again but I don’t think I was physically addicted yet. Again I didn’t sleep that first night but after that I went immedately back to a normal sleeping pattern the second night.
I put next to no clean time together after the second treatment. Then after 4 months of getting high and developing another full fledged habit shooting dope on the weekdays and trying desperately but to no avail to get clean by buying methadone bottles on the weekend I was again fortunate enough to do another full treatment 26 mg/kg. Again after my last treatment almost a year ago I didn’t sleep for almost 2 weeks. 1 hour here, another there.
So in my humble opinon , I’m going to assume that the insomnia was withdrawal related and I had no other symptoms.
I guess its different for everyone but for me the evidence is pretty ironclad. When I didn’t have a habit I slept and when I did I didn’t.
But who knows I could be wrong. -M.
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Preston: & Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:33:33 EST
In a message dated 11/15/05 9:16:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Edfriedrichs@aol.com writes:
“psychospiritual sessions” and “coke treatment:”  not sure what those amount to.  Explain…….   But it’s fine to question whether post-treatment insomnia is peculiar to Ibogaine Rx.  Dr. Ed
Ed, I think what is meant here is doing a treatment for spiritual purpose and cocaine not being an opiate but still being treatable with Ibogaine, people sleep a little easier after the session.          Randy
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From: Day Brown <daybrown@artelco.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ot) Trepanation??? vector wtf??? lol
Date: November 16, 2005 at 5:57:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Luke Christoffersen wrote:
It occurs to me that the young women are either in denial, or simply
faking their naivety, so that if the family discovers, they can
say that they were tricked into prostitution. When I lived in New
Orleans, 30 years ago, before HIV, among my friends were a topless
dancer, a former Playboy bunny, and the 3 hookers who lived next
door. All of whom came across as rational, living without romantic
fantasy such as I see so much more of today in young women. Since I
was not family, or in authority, they had no need to justify what
they did, and I enjoyed their company.
I don’t think it’s that simple.
I only mean that this aspect has been overlooked. Not that what you
refer to below is not also going on.
I would think the sex trade is a bit
more brutal in eastern europe.  They offer girls jobs working abroad
as nannies or whatever and beat them and rape them forcing them to
work as prostitues.  They’lll threaten to harm their families if they
don’t co-operate.  There’s probably some do it more freely but I don’t
think it would always be the case.
Eastern Europe has been a brutal place for millennia. Count Dracula?
And likewise, there is a cadre of women there who know this, learned
from their mothers or other women in their communities. They *never*
embraced Christian Fundamentalism, Puritanism, or the Protestant work
ethic. The romance movies had far less effect on them; their men had
mistresses, and still do. They thot the whole Monica thing with WJC
was ridiculous, and could not afford the myth of the loving nuclear
family to keep them out of the sex trade.
That’s got tradeoffs too; much of the income of workers has been spent
on recreational drugs, and as costs rise, some will, as you suggest,
become psychotic, but some will feel the pain of addiction as their
supply becomes short, and quit altogether. And if people move into
co-housing out of financial necessity, they will also find the human
companionship they missed in their private living spaces that will go
a long ways twards meeting emotional needs without drugs.
I’m wondering will people be more driven by neglect in childhood. Maybe there will be more addictions, more mental problems and an
increase in psychopaths.
Seems reasonable as far as it goes. But epidemiological studies now
show increasing rates of some kinds of mental pathologies are the
result of environmental pollution. The Autism rate, for instance,
went thru the roof in the Indian villages downwind from transnat
agribusiness cotton plantations in Bengal. That’s just Autism. We
quit using leaded gas cause it made kids stupid. What else is there
in the food, water, and indoor/outdoor air that causes pathologies,
and which pathologies are they?
“Original Sin” is a *Christian* idea. It comes out of the Levantine myth
that says that sex is evil as a way of disempowering women. And that in
turn comes out of the scripture which was designed to pander to the
instincts of alpha males and justify what they do. Thus today, what we
read Joshua did to the Canaanites and Philistines we now call genocide,
which Jehovah was setup to justify to provide the “Promised Land”.
I agree that might be a way of disempowering women but I also think
that the males in power are acting out their own pain,of birth or
childhood, as a revenge for the suffering caused by the mother.
I dont deny that could be a factor. Look at “Demonic Males” by Wrangham
and Peterson, who report on a number of primate field studies of the
apes: Gorilla, Chimpanzee, Orangutan, & Bonobo. Their males went thru
the same birth process, but none of them were raised in a ghetto, and
some had competent mothers, some not, but there is little correlation
in their behavior either way. Some aggressive, some not.
and at the base of it all is the fact that alpha males lack intuition in
understanding others and what they do. The alpha males definately do
*NOT* “feel your pain”. That would interfere with their ability on the
line of battle to defend the resources of the tribe from other alphas.
Alphas need faster reflexes that compassion would slow down. It is this
that is the original sin. Lacking insight into why others do as they do,
the alphas rely on force, most especially to control access to the women
for the sake of more sons like themselves… which they hope’ll be their
allies. But in fact, often as not, turn against their fathers seeking to
control as their fathers did.
I don’t buy the alpha male thing. If it were true all the leaders
would be that tall well build and good looking, perfect specimins. This is not the case.  Hitler was a small man driven to take out his
own pain and insecurities on those around him.
Granted that we have the term from primate field studies, and that the
hominids are far more complex. So, while brute force is sufficient to
gain dominance in apes, more subtle forces are needed with hominids. I
see the popularity of WWF as reflective of the instinct for brute force,
but we all know the fans are not the kind of personalities that are then
put in power. Which is not to say that they would not *want* to be. The
WWF is a vicarious expression of the instinct. Likewise the DND computer
games, Rambo movies, etc.
Like Hitler, timing is important. They’ve seen where primate females get
the idea that they had enough of the alpha male genes, and flee from him
such that the other males pick this up. They then begin to challenge the
old boy, taking him on one at a time. At some point, he gets tired, gets
unlucky, whatever, and a new alpha male results. Nevertheless, he still
must be fit, smart enough to see opportunity, and especially in hominids
be able to read the body language of others and respond with the correct
moves at the correct time. But good looks and charisma helps.
I’m not sure. I don’t know that much about these rituals and their
uses.Who knows why they need to do battle in the first place.
The conflict is to justify their existence. The alternative is the lack
of violence seen in matriarchic cultures. The main reason matriarchy
failed, was that the smart women in charge did *not* bear enough kids
to maintain their population relative to the breeding of airheads and
patriarchic cultures, and were eventually swept aside by hordes eager
for the kind of battle you refer to. Of course, as with prostitution,
there are many different reasons in particular cultures and persons, but
this aspect is common in all of them.
Joseph Campbell, among others, has noted that the onset of menses in
women was a big deal in the early agrarian communities- which tended
to be matriarchic. This makes sense. Even in hunting tribes, while the
men were out hunting, the women were expected to manage veggies in the
local ecosystem. 10,000 years ago, women got really go at it. But then,
as the bronze age and bladed weapons came in, alpha males took over, and
we see this bloodletting mimicked in male rituals.
And the problem is now, that the strong right arm sword in hand, which
has ruled the planet for 5000 years, is no longer sufficient to take
power. Smith & Wesson guarantee equal rights for women. The ultimate
weapon, which the alpha male leaders asked to be developed, Nukes, had
the result of making them all aware, that if a war started, it would be
the kings, not the grunts, who get to die first. A bellicose alpha male
attitude became increasingly obviously dangerous.
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Re: amanita
Date: November 16, 2005 at 4:22:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
<
Hi
did u ever try the extract>?
how was the xperience compared to ibogaine>?
i know i will do it at some point in my life!
love
matt
btw what u think of alegro’s theory on amanita>?
Don’t just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Day Brown <daybrown@artelco.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Re: amanita
Date: November 16, 2005 at 5:10:49 PM EST
To: Pipetman9@aol.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pipetman9@aol.com wrote:
what is the dose in dry weight?
do you heat the amanita ?
muscimol is water soluble, do you have an idea what alkaloids?
One of the reasons A. Muscaria is not commercially useful, is
that the effective potency is so variable. But I’d try 2 times the
dry weight as the dry mushroom. Do not- if you find fresh shrooms,
use them that way! Slice the caps open immediately, and put them on
the dashboard to dry ASAP to stop the maggots from eating them.
I dont know of any tradition that heated A. Muscaria. I never thot to
try it. I have found that a shroom smoothie, with cream rather than
butter, and then whatever fruit you have, works well for those who do
not like the earthy taste. But like dope smoking, the taste and smell
grows on you.
I dont recall the lab report that said the shrooms were poisonous
because of the fatty alkaloids. Dont recall that Wasson gets into it
very much either. Suffice to say that both the Brahmins and the Ugarit
Shamen used animal fats, and that the conversations I’ve had since with
medical experts realized what the fatty acids were doing.
Start with 1 square cm of cap as soon as you have dried shrooms, and
pay attention after you have eaten that for a day or so to make sure you
are not one of the very few who are allergic. I have *always* given such
small samples to possible initiates at least several days before ritual.
I have always avoided alcohol the day before ritual, and begun dosing
with about 5 sq cm for newbies, 10 cm square for others. Then, after an
hour, dosed again… and occasionally as the nite progressed, people
taking as much more as they were comfortable with. Individual response
varies as well as the potency of the shrooms.
But then wait until the next new or full moon before the next ritual to
let the liver process whatever that potency was.
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From: Day Brown <daybrown@artelco.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Coming off anti-depressants
Date: November 16, 2005 at 4:53:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
CallieMimosa@aol.com wrote:
As said previously, it depends on what you were on and how long you have taken it. Some antidepressants build a level in your body so to speak, before they are effective. I don’t know but seems to me that it might take a while for them to totally clear your system.
What were you taking and for how long? I will try to find answer for you if I could have that ifo.
Callie
Another factor complicating things even further, is that some allergic
reactions people have to stuff in their food, beverages, and both indoor
and outdoor air, are not physical- like asthma, but *psychological*.
Thus, it is that people who move to the country or wherever seem to do
better. Butcha never can tell. There’s a 150 neurotransmitters that have
been identified so far, each of which reacts differently to different
nutrients, or the lack thereof, and the presence or absence of stuff
like pheromones, nitrous oxides, pollens, etc… that then affect a
person’s mood, or even sanity.
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From: shakti@photon.net
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 16, 2005 at 3:59:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thank you for sharing that, Matt.
Brenda
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From: Day Brown <daybrown@artelco.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] now G. Hancock and Supernatural review/was preston-insomnia
Date: November 16, 2005 at 4:46:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Kewl- didnt know there was a drugwar list. How do I get on it?
2nd, your two cents sometimes fill my screen with many lines
of text, becoming very difficult to read. One of the problems I
am more aware of, that I try to deal with at http://anzi.biz,
which has to do with the tracking ability of the eye.
If a paragraph gets much more than six lines long, when the eye
gets back over to the left margin from the long lines we see so
often on this screen, it starts reading the wrong line.
Those more careful about being understood use short paragraphs.
At least on my end of the Holodeck. Something our decks seem to
share is a pervasive sense of the end of an era; apocalypse, war,
global revolution and/or economic meltdown, which I dont really
know are at hand, or just a plot twist to keep us all involved.
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From: Beatrice Blue <beatriceblue@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] my last ibo exp
Date: November 16, 2005 at 3:42:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I didn’t get anything.  No description here.
On 11/16/05 12:32 PM, “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com> wrote:
hi people
Here is a little description of my last ibo trip…yest was 8 weeks clean!! :}}…HOW FUKEN COOL IS TAHT!!!!
LOVE
MATT
Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with  MSN Premium:   <http://g.msn.com/8HMBENCA/2734??PS=47575>  Join now and get the first two months FREE*  /]=———————————————————————=[\  [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%]  \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] FUKEN COMP
Date: November 16, 2005 at 3:42:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
k lets try this
Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE*
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From: “matthew zielinski” <mattzielinski@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] my last ibo exp
Date: November 16, 2005 at 3:32:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi people
Here is a little description of my last ibo trip…yest was 8 weeks clean!! :}}…HOW FUKEN COOL IS TAHT!!!!
LOVE
MATT
Free yourself from those irritating pop-up ads with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* /]=———————————————————————=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=———————————————————————=[/
From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ot) Trepanation??? vector wtf??? lol
Date: November 16, 2005 at 2:59:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It occurs to me that the young women are either in denial, or simply
faking their naivete, so that if the family discovers, they can
say that they were tricked into prostitution. When I lived in New
Orleans, 30 years ago, before HIV, among my friends were a topless
dancer, a former Playboy bunny, and the 3 hookers who lived next
door. All of whom came across as rational, living without romantic
fantasy such as I see so much more of today in young women. Since I
was not family, or in authority, they had no need to justify what
they did, and I enjoyed their company.
I don’t think it’s that simple.  I would think the sex trade is a bit
more brutal in eastern europe.  They offer girls jobs working abroad
as nannies or whatever and beat them and rape them forcing them to
work as prostitues.  They’lll threaten to harm their families if they
don’t co-operate.  There’s probably some do it more freely but I don’t
think it would always be the case.
That’s got tradeoffs too; much of the income of workers has been spent
on recreational drugs, and as costs rise, some will, as you suggest,
become psychotic, but some will feel the pain of addiction as their
supply becomes short, and quit altogether. And if people move into
co-housing out of financial necessity, they will also find the human
companionship they missed in their private living spaces that will go
a long ways twards meeting emotional needs without drugs.
I’m wondering will people be more driven by neglect in childhood.
Maybe there will be more addictions, more mental problems and an
increase in psychopaths.
“Original Sin” is a *Christian* idea. It comes out of the Levantine myth
that says that sex is evil as a way of disempowering women. And that in
turn comes out of the scripture which was designed to pander to the
instincts of alpha males and justify what they do. Thus today, what we
read Joshua did to the Canaanites and Philistines we now call genocide,
which Jehovah was setup to justify to provide the “Promised Land”.
I agree that might be a way of disempowering women but I also think
that the males in power are acting out their own pain,of birth or
childhood, as a revenge for the suffering caused by the mother.
and at the base of it all is the fact that alpha males lack intuition in
understanding others and what they do. The alpha males definately do
*NOT* “feel your pain”. That would interfere with their ability on the
line of battle to defend the resources of the tribe from other alphas.
Alphas need faster reflexes that compassion would slow down. It is this
that is the original sin. Lacking insight into why others do as they do,
the alphas rely on force, most especially to control access to the women
for the sake of more sons like themselves… which they hope’ll be their
allies. But in fact, often as not, turn against their fathers seeking to
control as their fathers did.
I don’t buy the alpha male thing. If it were true all the leaders
would be that tall well build and good looking, perfect specimins.
This is not the case.  Hitler was a small man driven to take out his
own pain and insecurities on those around him.
LSD and the other entheogens often provide even alpha males the insight
to understand relationships as well as show to them that the divine is
*NOT* Jehovah or Jesus, much less Allah, and thus remove justifications
for instinctive alpha male behavior.
Trepaning, scarification, tattoo, and other forms of apparently very
painful rituals have been used to prove the resistance to pain that an
alpha needs on the line of battle. The more horrific, the better. Jews
began circumcision for the same reason.
I’m not sure. I don’t know that much about these rituals and their
uses.Who knows why they need to do battle in the first place.
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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Fwd: test
Date: November 16, 2005 at 2:41:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: test
Date: November 16, 2005 at 1:50:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
test
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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] OT Tinkk where are youuuuu???
Date: November 16, 2005 at 2:03:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sniff, that just reminded me of Tinkerbell!!!! Damn woman, where is she? I
miss our space reports from her!! Lol
Tink get back here this instant!!
Kirk lol
—–Original Message—–
From: Kirk [mailto:captkirk@clear.net.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 8:02 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: Big Sunspot
—–Original Message—–
From: SpaceWeather.com [mailto:swlist@spaceweather.com]
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 4:05 a.m.
To: SpaceWeather.com
Subject: Big Sunspot
Space Weather News for Nov. 16, 2005
http://spaceweather.com
BIG SUNSPOT:  An impressive sunspot, “NOAA 822,” has appeared on the
Earth-facing side of the sun.  Measured from end to end, it is wider than
Jupiter, and it is crackling with M-class (medium-sized) solar flares.   So
far none of the explosions has hurled a coronal mass ejection toward Earth.
Geomagnetic storms and auroras are possible, however, if this ‘spot
unleashes a major flare in the days ahead.
TAURID FIREBALLS:  The Taurid meteor shower, which peaked in early November
and should be subsiding, continues to produce fireballs, according to
reports submitted to the American Meteor Society.  If you’re outside at
night this week, keep an eye on the sky for bright meteors.
Visit http://spaceweather.com for more information and updates.
Would you like a call when geomagnetic storms erupt?  Try Space Weather
PHONE: http://spaceweatherphone.com
You are currently subscribed to spaceweather as: captkirk@clear.net.nz.
To unsubscribe click here:
http://www.spaceweather2.com/u?id=769303J&n=T&l=spaceweather
or send a blank email to leave-spaceweather-769303J@www.spaceweather2.com
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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: Big Sunspot
Date: November 16, 2005 at 2:01:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–Original Message—–
From: SpaceWeather.com [mailto:swlist@spaceweather.com]
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 4:05 a.m.
To: SpaceWeather.com
Subject: Big Sunspot
Space Weather News for Nov. 16, 2005
http://spaceweather.com
BIG SUNSPOT:  An impressive sunspot, “NOAA 822,” has appeared on the
Earth-facing side of the sun.  Measured from end to end, it is wider than
Jupiter, and it is crackling with M-class (medium-sized) solar flares.   So
far none of the explosions has hurled a coronal mass ejection toward Earth.
Geomagnetic storms and auroras are possible, however, if this ‘spot
unleashes a major flare in the days ahead.
TAURID FIREBALLS:  The Taurid meteor shower, which peaked in early November
and should be subsiding, continues to produce fireballs, according to
reports submitted to the American Meteor Society.  If you’re outside at
night this week, keep an eye on the sky for bright meteors.
Visit http://spaceweather.com for more information and updates.
Would you like a call when geomagnetic storms erupt?  Try Space Weather
PHONE: http://spaceweatherphone.com
You are currently subscribed to spaceweather as: captkirk@clear.net.nz.
To unsubscribe click here:
http://www.spaceweather2.com/u?id=769303J&n=T&l=spaceweather
or send a blank email to leave-spaceweather-769303J@www.spaceweather2.com
 /]=———————————————————————=[\
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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] test
Date: November 16, 2005 at 1:53:21 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I can see t hem!
Thank you for info, everybody…… I thnk I will be fine! Just the energy whacks on my aura are pretty weird, but not unbearable! Well, that’s what it feels like! And we’re having massive sun spot activity, that affects us too.
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com [mailto:CallieMimosa@aol.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 7:50 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] test
test
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] test
Date: November 16, 2005 at 1:50:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
test
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] Captn Kirk Check out Paroxetine
Date: November 16, 2005 at 1:49:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Paroxetine (Paxil, Seroxat, Deroxat)
Here is a little more info that might help.
From: Day Brown <daybrown@artelco.com>
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ot) Trepanation??? vector wtf??? lol
Date: November 16, 2005 at 1:51:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Luke Christoffersen wrote:
I think it goes on in more subtle forms in everyday life.  Advertising
seems particularly full of things aimed at using peoples
vulnerabilities.  Even the psychology used in some work environments. You’re right that there’s a lot of more extreem abuses going on.  I
watched a program about the sex trade in eastern europe.  It showed
how they conned women into beliving they were going for normal jobs
and where just sold as slaves.  They seem to know how to pick out the
most vunerable people.
It occurs to me that the young women are either in denial, or simply
faking their naivete, so that if the family discovers, they can
say that they were tricked into prostitution. When I lived in New
Orleans, 30 years ago, before HIV, among my friends were a topless
dancer, a former Playboy bunny, and the 3 hookers who lived next
door. All of whom came across as rational, living without romantic
fantasy such as I see so much more of today in young women. Since I
was not family, or in authority, they had no need to justify what
they did, and I enjoyed their company.
I was wondering alot what it is to be emotionally and spiritually
healthy in this world.  Alot of the work environments are still so
production driven.  Everything needs to be done now.  Maybe we’ll see
an increase in psychotics if people are forced to work so much to make
ends meet.  I wonder what kind of effect it will have on childeren if
both parents have to work.
That’s got tradeoffs too; much of the income of workers has been spent
on recreational drugs, and as costs rise, some will, as you suggest,
become psychotic, but some will feel the pain of addiction as their
supply becomes short, and quit altogether. And if people move into
co-housing out of financial necessity, they will also find the human
companionship they missed in their private living spaces that will go
a long ways twards meeting emotional needs without drugs.
Stan Grofs book mentions original sin as being related to the birth
trauma.  Apparently some patients reliving birth in lsd sessions made
a connection to this trauma and original sin.  I was wondering if the
trepaning had any relation to birth trauma.  I could imagine someone
getting the idea of drilling a little hole in the hope to release the
pressure from the head.
“Original Sin” is a *Christian* idea. It comes out of the Levantine myth
that says that sex is evil as a way of disempowering women. And that in
turn comes out of the scripture which was designed to pander to the
instincts of alpha males and justify what they do. Thus today, what we
read Joshua did to the Canaanites and Philistines we now call genocide,
which Jehovah was setup to justify to provide the “Promised Land”.
and at the base of it all is the fact that alpha males lack intuition in
understanding others and what they do. The alpha males definately do
*NOT* “feel your pain”. That would interfere with their ability on the
line of battle to defend the resources of the tribe from other alphas.
Alphas need faster reflexes that compassion would slow down. It is this
that is the original sin. Lacking insight into why others do as they do,
the alphas rely on force, most especially to control access to the women
for the sake of more sons like themselves… which they hope’ll be their
allies. But in fact, often as not, turn against their fathers seeking to
control as their fathers did.
LSD and the other entheogens often provide even alpha males the insight
to understand relationships as well as show to them that the divine is
*NOT* Jehovah or Jesus, much less Allah, and thus remove justifications
for instinctive alpha male behavior.
Trepaning, scarification, tattoo, and other forms of apparently very
painful rituals have been used to prove the resistance to pain that an
alpha needs on the line of battle. The more horrific, the better. Jews
began circumcision for the same reason.
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From: Kirk <captkirk@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] raising funds for Dora Weiner foundation
Date: November 16, 2005 at 12:37:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey yeh man I;m in. when I can… can I send nz dollars?  Heh thanks
From: Eye of the Bhogi [mailto:freedomroot@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 5:03 a.m.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [Ibogaine] raising funds for Dora Weiner foundation
Although Jeff and I can’t really give as much to the project as we are indebted to it, my response to Howard’s appeal were more about thinking creatively as to who we know who might be willing to donate.  How many folks are on this list?  If there are 2000 with US$10 to spare, that’s 20K right there for setting sail.  Support addiction interruption and Lotsof!
Dora Weiner Foundation 
P.O. Box 10032 
Staten Island, NY 10301-0032 
USA
From: BiscuitBoy714@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Re: Preston: & Insomnia Post Ibogaine
Date: November 16, 2005 at 12:33:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/15/05 9:16:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Edfriedrichs@aol.com writes:
“psychospiritual sessions” and “coke treatment:”  not sure what those amount to.  Explain…….   But it’s fine to question whether post-treatment insomnia is peculiar to Ibogaine Rx.  Dr. Ed
Ed, I think what is meant here is doing a treatment for spiritual purpose and cocaine not being an opiate but still being treatable with Ibogaine, people sleep a little easier after the session.          Randy
From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] now G. Hancock and Supernatural review/was preston-insomnia
Date: November 16, 2005 at 11:49:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/16/2005 12:27:38 AM Central Standard Time, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
Even in pretty steady
withdrawals- but fairly minor compared to some experiences (I am still
taking a small amount of opiates, so it’s not like I’m cold turkeying
completely, just very, very drastically reducing my intake)-
Preston, I am so impressed that you are doing this and amazed that you can take just a small amount of opiates while you are feeling like crap! I would never be able to do that! If I felt bad I would eat them all. You hang in there though….I am THRILLED that you are pulling this self-detox off (saying that with fingers crossed!).
Sending positive vibes your way!
Callie
From: “Preston Peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Young, Assured and Playing Pharmacist to Friends
Date: November 16, 2005 at 11:05:00 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
HI all,
  One needs a free NYTimes registration to read the whole thing, but if you are too paranoid to do that, here’s an excerpt. (And you are too paranoid if you don’t bother registering with this or that website that asks for such registration to access their sites, I personally believe, whether or not Big Brother OR the newspaper itself is using the info to “spy” or target you for advertising, etc.
;-))
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/16/health/16patient.html?
Young, Assured and Playing Pharmacist to Friends
By AMY HARMON
Published: November 16, 2005
Nathan Tylutki arrived late in New York, tired but eager to go out dancing. When his friend Katherine K. offered him the Ritalin she had inherited from someone who had stopped taking his prescription, he popped two pills and stayed out all night.
For the two college friends, now 25 and out in the working world, there was nothing remarkable about the transaction. A few weeks later, Katherine gave the tranquilizer Ativan to another friend who complained of feeling short of breath and panicky.
“Clear-cut anxiety disorder,” Katherine decreed.
The Ativan came from a former colleague who had traded it to her for the Vicodin that Katherine’s boyfriend had been prescribed by a dentist. The boyfriend did not mind, but he preferred that she not give away the Ambien she got from a doctor by exaggerating her sleeping problems. It helps him relax after a stressful day.
“I acquire quite a few medications and then dispense them to my friends as needed. I usually know what I’m talking about,” said Katherine, who lives in Manhattan and who, like many other people interviewed for this article, did not want her last name used because of concerns that her behavior could get her in trouble with her employer, law enforcement authorities or at least her parents.
For a sizable group of people in their 20’s and 30’s, deciding on their own what drugs to take – in particular, stimulants, antidepressants and other psychiatric medications – is becoming the norm. Confident of their abilities and often skeptical of psychiatrists’ expertise, they choose to rely on their own research and each other’s experience in treating problems like depression, fatigue, anxiety or a lack of concentration. A medical degree, in their view, is useful, but not essential, and certainly not sufficient.
They trade unused prescription drugs, get medications without prescriptions from the Internet and, in some cases, lie to doctors to obtain medications that in their judgment they need.
A spokeswoman for the Drug Enforcement Administration says it is illegal to give prescription medication to another person, although it is questionable whether the offense would be prosecuted.
The behavior, drug abuse prevention experts say, is notably different from the use of drugs like marijuana or cocaine, or even the abuse of prescription painkillers, which is also on the rise. The goal for many young adults is not to get high but to feel better – less depressed, less stressed out, more focused, better rested. It is just that the easiest route to that end often seems to be medication for which they do not have a prescription.
snip-
Peace and love,
Preston Peet
“Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often mistaken for madness”
Richard Davenport-Hines
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor “Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs”
Editor “Underground- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations, Astonishing Archeology and Hidden History”
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.
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From: CallieMimosa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Coming off anti-depressants
Date: November 16, 2005 at 11:33:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
As said previously, it depends on what you were on and how long you have taken it. Some antidepressants build a level in your body so to speak, before they are effective. I don’t know but seems to me that it might take a while for them to totally clear your system.
What were you taking and for how long? I will try to find answer for you if I could have that ifo.
Callie
From: Eye of the Bhogi <freedomroot@gmail.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] raising funds for Dora Weiner foundation
Date: November 16, 2005 at 11:03:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Although Jeff and I can’t really give as much to the project as we are indebted to it, my response to Howard’s appeal were more about thinking creatively as to who we know who might be willing to donate.  How many folks are on this list?  If there are 2000 with US$10 to spare, that’s 20K right there for setting sail.  Support addiction interruption and Lotsof!
Dora Weiner Foundation 
P.O. Box 10032 
Staten Island, NY 10301-0032 
USA
From: Day Brown <daybrown@artelco.com>
Subject: [Ibogaine] Orthodoxy vs Gnosis…
Date: November 15, 2005 at 2:12:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, maps forum <maps_forum@maps.org>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Is discussed in “The Alphabet versus the Goddess” by Leonard Shlain.
Christianity arose in the same era when literacy broke out of the
constraints of arcane scribes and into the public. Previously, religion
had been based on mystical emotional experience, the right brain, and
now was became based on the linear thinking of the left brain reading
linear text like on this screen.
Political organization found orthodoxy useful. Nietzsche, in “the Birth
of Tragedy” notes that whereas the Levantine religions were based on
works of literature claiming literal truth, Dionysianism [typical of the
Native European mystery religions] was based on works of theater
claiming allegorical truth. Political systems like literal truth. Its
what lawyers are all about.
And the problem with entheogenic potions like LSD, mescaline, ibogaine,
pscilocybin, peyote, Amanita Muscaria, et al, is that they provide the
kind of direct experience of the divine claimed by the early Gnostics.
And were mostly suppressed by the Orthoxy of Rome and Washington DC for
the same reason: it disempowered the hierarchy, making the divine more
available without the services of clergy, bishops, popes, etc.
The early Christian emperors, from Constantine to Justinian, performed a
very successful repression of mysticism and Gnosticism, which as Shlain
notes, is why the Nag Hammadi Gnostic texts were buried in the first
place. But that was only possible in a milieu where the creation of text
was very limited; that time honored system of control is breaking down.
Without getting into the validity of altered states of consciousness, it
is clear to everyone that the effect is often profound, life changing,
and as a result, often leads to the abandonment of traditional religious
belief and ‘family values’.  Which is why LSD was made illegal. There’s
no