From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (still OT) Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 5:32:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston,
Sorry for the post, you missed my point entirely.
A couple comments; Yes I am feeling just fine, no I am
not “feeling irritable” and no-thanks, I don’t feel
like drugging myself (just for today <g>). Other than
that my comments had little to do with cats – oh and
FYI I have spent thousands on saving animals, my dog
is fixed, her sister unfortunately was also fixed by
the IN-Humane society while both of them were sick,
she died 36 hours after I got her (she “only” had a
little kennel cough… (sure she did). And then there
are my last 9 cats which were all rescues, all had
their working parts broken, and then there were birds,
snakes, whatever… You are talking to someone who
feels bad for yeast when I bake bread, who catches
bugs/lizards in the house to let them go, who has a
hard time weeding the garden, who thinks the practice
of having a “live” (which means dead) X-Mas tree is a
barbaric practice… Which also has nothing to do with
the point I was trying to make. OH, and I reserve the
right to do any thing I so choose including purchasing
a dog/cat/exotic… from a for-profit type
person/entity or to breed animals myself, if I so
choose and will do so without the slightest bit of
guilt that somewhere in NYC (or wherever) there is a
pet going to die all because I didn’t rescue it – all
my fault… And that right there is my point, or part
of it, lay your guilt somewhere else – and I don’t
give a rats ass what kind of guilt it is, if it is
“guilt” (or fear) and I should do whatever,
because…, well it puts me off whatever point you
were trying to make cause that is what I hear and it
is hard for me to get past that – which is kind of my
point. The “finish your food, there are starving
children in Biafra” (my response, “here is a stamp,
send it to them”) just isn’t something I respond to
very well.
Brett
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Usually when I want to share differences of
opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when
they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell
then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are
and
how immoral they are acting. <
Writing here in lotsa fucking pain, I have zero
patience tonight. What the hell are you talking
about Brett? I never called Dana stupid, nor
immoral, not once. I did say he was using silly
reasoning by writing the cats “don’t mature right”
and still will point out that I personally think
that fixing the cats is the way to go.
I’ve apparently touched a nerve, but it wasn’t I
guess Dana’s. He’s a friend of mine. I figure I’m
able to talk to Dana as a friend, not pussyfoot
around with him.
I guess just take it a little personally when
people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it
is
about fixing a cat/dog. <
yaaaa, groovy, tell it to all the cats sitting in
the shelter here in NYC who are facinig death cause
some people don’t like to hear about how fixing the
cats might solve that problem. Can’t say I remember
that I told Dana to do anything, but did offer to
help him get his cats fixed if he wanted, and why he
might want to and suggested he call me IF HE DOES.
To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.<
Again, what the hell are you talking about, or are
you simply feeling as shitty as I this evening?
I would suggest that if you have something for Dana
or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they
are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es)
and
knowledge (according to you at least).<
again, did you even read my note, or simply decide
to rant at me cause yer feeling irritable? I did
explain why I think it would be better to get the
cats fixed in a rational tone, in both the note
“don’t mature right’ and the “cats and questions”
note. And after all yer run ins with other people
about yer animals, I guess I see why yer a bit
sensative to the issue.
Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an
ass-hole).<
again, what the hell are you talking about? I feel
like Dana wasn’t entire honest with me, and
explained why I asked him my original question. How
do you figure that’s “holier than thou?”
How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots
of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals.<
So yer suggesting that because “lots of ’em are
going to die,” I should shut the hell up and not
worry about those a friend of mine shares his home
with? Hmmmm. Nope, sorry, don’t think I’ll think
that way, thanks very much.
The final bit about Sara Lee crap is completely
irrelevent as people can make the choice to eat/not
eat- cats don’t get the choice to fix/mate or not,
but we as people can help keep more from that
shelter death row by promoting “fixing” them. I
don’t recall ever calling Dana any names. I also
noted that Dana told me something to my face that
was apparently not true, which pissed me off, and I
noted it publicly since he posted a notice offering
kittens to anyone who’d call I guess, which wasn’t
what he told me to my face. But I didn’t ever call
Dana any names, and I did offer help if and when he
wants it, so Brett, go smoke a fatty please and
chill out.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature
right?
Preston
Usually when I want to share differences of
opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when
they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell
then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than
they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are
and
how immoral they are acting.
I guess just take it a little personally when
people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it
is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed
(dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never
mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle
of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There
were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would
chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on
the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am
sure
you can find any number of other books out there
with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this
“animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet
outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to
have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage –
cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I
guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.
I would suggest that if you have something for
Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you
don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they
are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es)
and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction
of
course, not that you in particular are an
ass-hole).
I don’t know if there is something particular with
the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes,
there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs
later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured
before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it?
Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt
unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals
in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are
lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are
people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and
sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people
out
there who should get fixed and others who should
not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous
substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in
an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) –
but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a
condom?.
http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm
Has some info from one recient study.
Brett
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they
don’t
mature right. <
This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
recommending this, or is
someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is
he
serious?”
“They don’t mature right?” Right for what?
None
of my fixed cats seem to
have had any problems maturing “right.”
And how many litters have there already been?
How
many siamese kittens/cats
are sitting on death row now waiting for a
loving
human to take them home
and share a place with them, but won’t get the
chance because Dana thinks it
too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
making money off breeding
yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch
that
pussy and put it in a box
and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while
to
finally catch the one
completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom
all
last winter, until I
could finally get up the nerve to chase the
unwilling cat around, but I did
it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss
Dana,
and as Sandy notes, (and
wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
Sandy) I too can really
only work on myself and my surroundings. But
that
said, V and I are still
willing to come over and catch them for you, no
trouble, no fees. We’ve
gotten quite good at it. And what about the
other
cats that aren’t siamese
cats at your place? You are willfully catering
to
people who don’t stike me
as people after a pet or friend, but rather
after
status symbols. “Oh looook
at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none
of
those boring other cats
for meee.” How much do you sell these living
breathing thinking creatures
for Dana?
“Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
breeding pair of siamese is
worth too much money to get them fixed, even if
it
would contribute to less
suffering? How is that different than the
methadone
clinics who want to
keep all the money so they don’t help make
ibogaine
legal? Or Ms. Mash
wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
ibogaine research? I’m
afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
included. That’s why we
really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in
a
way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
know
any more about computers, but I understand why
they’re
different.
Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just
a
guess.
Hey all of you who are going to all the
ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to
be
at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little
crazy.
Carla B
The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats
that
refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them
with
the box and try
to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with
this
black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them
fixed.
Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got
a
response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites
are
more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they
don’t
mature right.
Dana/cnw
Dana/cnw
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From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 7:32:09 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This topic is probably getting way off track but I have to agree with
Preston. There are far too many unwanted and neglected animals out there
and yes everyone can justify it by saying its part of life and what about
people and all the other bad things out there but surely we can all do a
little bit and protect those who can’t speak for themselves, namely animals.
They all have their own personalities, be it pedigree sold for lots of money
or the bitsa down the pound that loves you just for giving him a home??
Cats are well known for producing litter after litter of kittens that end up
with no homes and will live wild or get dumped etc which is so cruel. If
all owners were more responsible and had their animals fixed it would
certainly cut down on the unwanted problem. In some places you can even get
funding to get your cat or dog fixed and I know the SPCA make it a condition
and they pay for it. Get real, the worlds got enough crap without creating
more. Allison
PS Its been proved that the old wives tale of letting cats and dogs mature
or have young before they are fixed is a myth these days. Progress has
taken over and that idea is well gone. I’ve seen lots of both sides and
there is no difference. Brett said a dog will get fat, which applies
usually to females and only if their diet is not watched or they don’t get
exercise and what if they do put on some weight, in my opinion thats better
than having a belly full of unwanted pups and then carrying excess weight.
—–Original Message—–
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 30 November 2002 11:06
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Preston
Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting.
I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed (dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am sure
you can find any number of other books out there with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this “animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage – cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.
I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).
I don’t know if there is something particular with the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes, there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people out
there who should get fixed and others who should not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) – but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a condom?.
http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm
Has some info from one recient study.
Brett
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
mature right. <
This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
recommending this, or is
someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he
serious?”
“They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None
of my fixed cats seem to
have had any problems maturing “right.”
And how many litters have there already been? How
many siamese kittens/cats
are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving
human to take them home
and share a place with them, but won’t get the
chance because Dana thinks it
too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
making money off breeding
yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that
pussy and put it in a box
and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to
finally catch the one
completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all
last winter, until I
could finally get up the nerve to chase the
unwilling cat around, but I did
it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana,
and as Sandy notes, (and
wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
Sandy) I too can really
only work on myself and my surroundings. But that
said, V and I are still
willing to come over and catch them for you, no
trouble, no fees. We’ve
gotten quite good at it. And what about the other
cats that aren’t siamese
cats at your place? You are willfully catering to
people who don’t stike me
as people after a pet or friend, but rather after
status symbols. “Oh looook
at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of
those boring other cats
for meee.” How much do you sell these living
breathing thinking creatures
for Dana?
“Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
breeding pair of siamese is
worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it
would contribute to less
suffering? How is that different than the methadone
clinics who want to
keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine
legal? Or Ms. Mash
wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
ibogaine research? I’m
afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
included. That’s why we
really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a
way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
know
any more about computers, but I understand why
they’re
different.
Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a
guess.
Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be
at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little
crazy.
Carla B
The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that
refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them with
the box and try
to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this
black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a
response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are
more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
mature right.
Dana/cnw
Dana/cnw
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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 3:16:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My I.Q happens to be 204.
What fantastic luck!
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (still OT) Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 1:50:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals.<
Really, thinking more about this Brett, this is ridiculous, or so I personally find. There’s tons of people sitting in jail for using currently illicit drugs. Lots more use who aren’t in jail but face the threat. Oh well, I guess some are simply going to go to jail and I should accept it, since that’s just the way it is, at least, by using the above reasoning. No need to voice an opinion about it, nor work to change the situation. Hell, for that matter, why push ibogaine on everyone? Just accept that there’s people who like using heroin, and will continue to do so. Why all the ibogaine instead of dope stuff? What’s the point? I mean, people are just going to use heroin anyway, so why bother?
Hmmm.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: preston peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 1:41 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] (still OT) Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
>Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting. <
Writing here in lotsa fucking pain, I have zero patience tonight. What the hell are you talking about Brett? I never called Dana stupid, nor immoral, not once. I did say he was using silly reasoning by writing the cats “don’t mature right” and still will point out that I personally think that fixing the cats is the way to go.
I’ve apparently touched a nerve, but it wasn’t I guess Dana’s. He’s a friend of mine. I figure I’m able to talk to Dana as a friend, not pussyfoot around with him.
>I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. <
yaaaa, groovy, tell it to all the cats sitting in the shelter here in NYC who are facinig death cause some people don’t like to hear about how fixing the cats might solve that problem. Can’t say I remember that I told Dana to do anything, but did offer to help him get his cats fixed if he wanted, and why he might want to and suggested he call me IF HE DOES.
>To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.<
Again, what the hell are you talking about, or are you simply feeling as shitty as I this evening?
>I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least).<
again, did you even read my note, or simply decide to rant at me cause yer feeling irritable? I did explain why I think it would be better to get the cats fixed in a rational tone, in both the note “don’t mature right’ and the “cats and questions” note. And after all yer run ins with other people about yer animals, I guess I see why yer a bit sensative to the issue.
>Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).<
again, what the hell are you talking about? I feel like Dana wasn’t entire honest with me, and explained why I asked him my original question. How do you figure that’s “holier than thou?”
>How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals.<
So yer suggesting that because “lots of ’em are going to die,” I should shut the hell up and not worry about those a friend of mine shares his home with? Hmmmm. Nope, sorry, don’t think I’ll think that way, thanks very much.
The final bit about Sara Lee crap is completely irrelevent as people can make the choice to eat/not eat- cats don’t get the choice to fix/mate or not, but we as people can help keep more from that shelter death row by promoting “fixing” them. I don’t recall ever calling Dana any names. I also noted that Dana told me something to my face that was apparently not true, which pissed me off, and I noted it publicly since he posted a notice offering kittens to anyone who’d call I guess, which wasn’t what he told me to my face. But I didn’t ever call Dana any names, and I did offer help if and when he wants it, so Brett, go smoke a fatty please and chill out.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Preston
Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting.
I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed (dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am sure
you can find any number of other books out there with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this “animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage – cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.
I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).
I don’t know if there is something particular with the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes, there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people out
there who should get fixed and others who should not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) – but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a condom?.
http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm
Has some info from one recient study.
Brett
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
> have one
> >litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
> mature right. <
>
> This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
> recommending this, or is
> someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he
> serious?”
> “They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None
> of my fixed cats seem to
> have had any problems maturing “right.”
> And how many litters have there already been? How
> many siamese kittens/cats
> are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving
> human to take them home
> and share a place with them, but won’t get the
> chance because Dana thinks it
> too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
> making money off breeding
> yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that
> pussy and put it in a box
> and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to
> finally catch the one
> completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all
> last winter, until I
> could finally get up the nerve to chase the
> unwilling cat around, but I did
> it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
> Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana,
> and as Sandy notes, (and
> wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
> Sandy) I too can really
> only work on myself and my surroundings. But that
> said, V and I are still
> willing to come over and catch them for you, no
> trouble, no fees. We’ve
> gotten quite good at it. And what about the other
> cats that aren’t siamese
> cats at your place? You are willfully catering to
> people who don’t stike me
> as people after a pet or friend, but rather after
> status symbols. “Oh looook
> at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of
> those boring other cats
> for meee.” How much do you sell these living
> breathing thinking creatures
> for Dana?
> “Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
> Peace,
> Preston
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: booker w
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
>
>
> I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
> breeding pair of siamese is
> worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it
> would contribute to less
> suffering? How is that different than the methadone
> clinics who want to
> keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine
> legal? Or Ms. Mash
> wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
> ibogaine research? I’m
> afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
> included. That’s why we
> really can only work on ourselves first.
> Sandy Watson
> >From: Dana Beal
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
> >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
> >
> >>Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
> anyone
> >>who knows anything about computers said it in a
> way
> >>that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
> know
> >>any more about computers, but I understand why
> they’re
> >>different.
> >>
> >>Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a
> guess.
> >>
> >>Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
> >>conferences, have a great time! I will try to be
> at
> >>Seattle, but the admission price is a little
> crazy.
> >>
> >>Carla B
> >>
> >
> >The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that
> refuse to go. I
> >mean, cats that hide when you come after them with
> the box and try
> >to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this
> black half-pint
> >called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
> breeding pair of
> >Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
> >
> >Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a
> response from
> >Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
> never any problem
> >placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are
> more of a
> >challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
> mature and have one
> >litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
> mature right.
> >
> >Dana/cnw
> >
> >Dana/cnw
>
>
>
> Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com
> VirusScan Online
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (still OT) Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 1:41:35 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting. <
Writing here in lotsa fucking pain, I have zero patience tonight. What the hell are you talking about Brett? I never called Dana stupid, nor immoral, not once. I did say he was using silly reasoning by writing the cats “don’t mature right” and still will point out that I personally think that fixing the cats is the way to go.
I’ve apparently touched a nerve, but it wasn’t I guess Dana’s. He’s a friend of mine. I figure I’m able to talk to Dana as a friend, not pussyfoot around with him.
>I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. <
yaaaa, groovy, tell it to all the cats sitting in the shelter here in NYC who are facinig death cause some people don’t like to hear about how fixing the cats might solve that problem. Can’t say I remember that I told Dana to do anything, but did offer to help him get his cats fixed if he wanted, and why he might want to and suggested he call me IF HE DOES.
>To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.<
Again, what the hell are you talking about, or are you simply feeling as shitty as I this evening?
>I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least).<
again, did you even read my note, or simply decide to rant at me cause yer feeling irritable? I did explain why I think it would be better to get the cats fixed in a rational tone, in both the note “don’t mature right’ and the “cats and questions” note. And after all yer run ins with other people about yer animals, I guess I see why yer a bit sensative to the issue.
>Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).<
again, what the hell are you talking about? I feel like Dana wasn’t entire honest with me, and explained why I asked him my original question. How do you figure that’s “holier than thou?”
>How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals.<
So yer suggesting that because “lots of ’em are going to die,” I should shut the hell up and not worry about those a friend of mine shares his home with? Hmmmm. Nope, sorry, don’t think I’ll think that way, thanks very much.
The final bit about Sara Lee crap is completely irrelevent as people can make the choice to eat/not eat- cats don’t get the choice to fix/mate or not, but we as people can help keep more from that shelter death row by promoting “fixing” them. I don’t recall ever calling Dana any names. I also noted that Dana told me something to my face that was apparently not true, which pissed me off, and I noted it publicly since he posted a notice offering kittens to anyone who’d call I guess, which wasn’t what he told me to my face. But I didn’t ever call Dana any names, and I did offer help if and when he wants it, so Brett, go smoke a fatty please and chill out.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Preston
Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting.
I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed (dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am sure
you can find any number of other books out there with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this “animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage – cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.
I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).
I don’t know if there is something particular with the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes, there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people out
there who should get fixed and others who should not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) – but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a condom?.
http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm
Has some info from one recient study.
Brett
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
> have one
> >litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
> mature right. <
>
> This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
> recommending this, or is
> someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he
> serious?”
> “They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None
> of my fixed cats seem to
> have had any problems maturing “right.”
> And how many litters have there already been? How
> many siamese kittens/cats
> are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving
> human to take them home
> and share a place with them, but won’t get the
> chance because Dana thinks it
> too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
> making money off breeding
> yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that
> pussy and put it in a box
> and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to
> finally catch the one
> completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all
> last winter, until I
> could finally get up the nerve to chase the
> unwilling cat around, but I did
> it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
> Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana,
> and as Sandy notes, (and
> wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
> Sandy) I too can really
> only work on myself and my surroundings. But that
> said, V and I are still
> willing to come over and catch them for you, no
> trouble, no fees. We’ve
> gotten quite good at it. And what about the other
> cats that aren’t siamese
> cats at your place? You are willfully catering to
> people who don’t stike me
> as people after a pet or friend, but rather after
> status symbols. “Oh looook
> at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of
> those boring other cats
> for meee.” How much do you sell these living
> breathing thinking creatures
> for Dana?
> “Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
> Peace,
> Preston
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: booker w
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
>
>
> I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
> breeding pair of siamese is
> worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it
> would contribute to less
> suffering? How is that different than the methadone
> clinics who want to
> keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine
> legal? Or Ms. Mash
> wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
> ibogaine research? I’m
> afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
> included. That’s why we
> really can only work on ourselves first.
> Sandy Watson
> >From: Dana Beal
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
> >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
> >
> >>Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
> anyone
> >>who knows anything about computers said it in a
> way
> >>that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
> know
> >>any more about computers, but I understand why
> they’re
> >>different.
> >>
> >>Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a
> guess.
> >>
> >>Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
> >>conferences, have a great time! I will try to be
> at
> >>Seattle, but the admission price is a little
> crazy.
> >>
> >>Carla B
> >>
> >
> >The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that
> refuse to go. I
> >mean, cats that hide when you come after them with
> the box and try
> >to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this
> black half-pint
> >called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
> breeding pair of
> >Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
> >
> >Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a
> response from
> >Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
> never any problem
> >placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are
> more of a
> >challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
> mature and have one
> >litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
> mature right.
> >
> >Dana/cnw
> >
> >Dana/cnw
>
>
>
> Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com
> VirusScan Online
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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From: GM40JM98@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 30, 2002 at 1:20:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You sound like a burn-out,idoitic,moronic dolt that has an I.Q of my shoe size (11)
so if you want to intellectually spar sometime I will put you in your proper place.
My I.Q happens to be 204.
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 29, 2002 at 5:06:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston
Usually when I want to share differences of opinion,
educate someone or even (gosh) correct them when they
are wrong I find it tends not to work when I tell then
how stupid they are, how I know much more than they
do, how I am on higher moral ground than they are and
how immoral they are acting.
I guess just take it a little personally when people
tell others what to do, hey, like what drugs they
should and shouldn’t take, or what religion they
should believe in, how they should act, what they
should believe in and not believe in… even if it is
about fixing a cat/dog. I use to have a Samoyed (dog)
that had his jewels intact though he was never mated
(yes sure, he was going to sneak out in the middle of
the night and lay the dog next door…). There were a
number of ignorant animal lovers who would chastise me
for not having him fixed. According to the book on the
breed I was doing what was best for the dog, I am sure
you can find any number of other books out there with
different opinions on the subject. I got another
animal lover pissed at me at the grocery store. I
walked my dog from the house to hit the bank real
quick, wasn’t in the store 5 minutes and this “animal
lover” was all over me about leaving my pet outside,
she was thursty (gimme a break) and he gave her
water… shit, she was hungry too, he should have
given her (the dog) a steak! I also once trapped a
feral cat (I had snatched her kittens) only to have a
good-hearted neighbor let her out of the cage – cause
according to them, MAN interferes and Nature knows
what it is doing… I did catch the cat and had it
fixed but had to let it go. To each his own I guess…
or is it too bad we all don’t share your opinions,
that’ll make the world go around real fine.
I would suggest that if you have something for Dana or
anyone else it might be better recieved if you don’t
attack them, their moral character, how smart they are
– or whatever – instead share your experience(es) and
knowledge (according to you at least). Anyway, for
future reference, come at me that way and I will
absolutely not hear anything you say other than a
bunch of noise coming from some hollier than thou
ass-hole (I am speaking of the sound/my reaction of
course, not that you in particular are an ass-hole).
I don’t know if there is something particular with the
breed of cat and again, I am sure you can find
different opinions on the subject. Mine is yes, there
are differences in a dog/cat fixed very early vs later
and I prefer to wait till they have matured a bit.
What is pretty obvious is if you fix em very early
they will have less sexual hormones (duh) and not
develope quite the same (more EUNIC like and get
fatter, again DUH) as animals who have matured before
getting spayed/neutered. How “important” is it? Gee,
the world is going to come to a grinding halt unless
it is done one way or the other. As for having
kittens/breeding, sure there are lots of animals in
pounds, lots of em are going to die, there are lots of
irresponsable owners out there AND there are people
who own cats who are responsable who breed and sell
animals. Hey, personally I think there are people out
there who should get fixed and others who should not
be sold Sara Lee because it is a dangerous substance
(to me if I happen to be sitting next to them in an
airplane – as for THEM, I don’t give a rats ass) – but
I don’t get bent out of shape over it or make it a
cause, call them FATTY names or tell them how
unhealthy they are OR ridicule them about having a
litter of children, what “can’t you afford a condom?.
http://storm.prohosting.com/katlove/miracle_kittens.htm
Has some info from one recient study.
Brett
— preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
We recommend that they be allowed to mature and
have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
mature right. <
This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you
recommending this, or is
someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he
serious?”
“They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None
of my fixed cats seem to
have had any problems maturing “right.”
And how many litters have there already been? How
many siamese kittens/cats
are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving
human to take them home
and share a place with them, but won’t get the
chance because Dana thinks it
too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s
making money off breeding
yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that
pussy and put it in a box
and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to
finally catch the one
completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all
last winter, until I
could finally get up the nerve to chase the
unwilling cat around, but I did
it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana,
and as Sandy notes, (and
wow, what a great point about the meth merchants
Sandy) I too can really
only work on myself and my surroundings. But that
said, V and I are still
willing to come over and catch them for you, no
trouble, no fees. We’ve
gotten quite good at it. And what about the other
cats that aren’t siamese
cats at your place? You are willfully catering to
people who don’t stike me
as people after a pet or friend, but rather after
status symbols. “Oh looook
at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of
those boring other cats
for meee.” How much do you sell these living
breathing thinking creatures
for Dana?
“Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a
breeding pair of siamese is
worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it
would contribute to less
suffering? How is that different than the methadone
clinics who want to
keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine
legal? Or Ms. Mash
wanting to keep all the glory and patents about
ibogaine research? I’m
afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me
included. That’s why we
really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time
anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a
way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t
know
any more about computers, but I understand why
they’re
different.
Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a
guess.
Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be
at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little
crazy.
Carla B
The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that
refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them with
the box and try
to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this
black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a
breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a
response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s
never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are
more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to
mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t
mature right.
Dana/cnw
Dana/cnw
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From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] SF Conference Reception on the 29th?
Date: November 28, 2002 at 5:56:18 PM EST
To: “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
OK, I have watched and waited, and still no announcement has been made as to
when/where the reception for the SF conference is going to be. It’s still
listed as TBA at http://www.ibogaine.org/sfforum.html . Is the reception
going to happen or not?
– jt
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] happy thanksgiving
Date: November 28, 2002 at 1:30:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
ALthough I think most are on planes by now and gone, I wanted to wish everyone a happy holiday and I will be at SF. So will a few more on this list who may not be using their handles 😉
Peace to all and ibogaine under everyone’s christmas tree. That may be premature, but next year it’s something to try for 🙂
Curtis
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From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Hallucinogens and redemption.
Date: November 28, 2002 at 10:39:12 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Howard, everybody,
We had an article in the Users Voice about 7 months ago, which documented a conversation we had with Rabbi Schacter, part of Jewish Renewal and also instrumental in setting up the Tikkun project. He spoke about REDEMPTION and psychedelics too; it was very good. Inspirational and deep and healing
Just said i’d mention it
Nadelmann told us about him
Hope all is well in your yard(s)
Hugs xox
Andria Mordaunt
Editor: Users Voice
C/O Drugscope, 32-36 Loman Street
London, SE1 OEE, U.K
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: 14 November 2002 16:04
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Hallucinogens and redemption.
J Psychoactive Drugs 2002 Jul-Sep;34(3):239-48 Related Articles, Links
Hallucinogens and redemption.
de Rios MD, Grob CS, Baker JR.
Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Human Behavior, University of
Califomia, Irvine, USA.
This article examines drug substitution with regard to hallucinogens
(ayahuasca, ibogaine, peyote and LSD) set within the concept of redemption.
The model examines both religious and secular approaches to the contemporary
use of hallucinogens in drug substitution, both by scientists and in
religious settings worldwide. The redemptive model posits that the proper use
of one psychoactive substance within a spiritual or clinical context helps to
free an individual >from the adverse effects of their addiction to another
substance and thus restores them as functioning members of their community or
group. Data is drawn from the U.S., Brazil, Peru, and West Africa. Two
principle mechanisms for this are proposed: the psychological mechanism of
suggestibility is examined in terms of the individual reaching abstinence
goals from addictive substances such as alcohol and opiates.
Neurophysiological and neurochemical mechanisms to understand the efficacy of
such substitution are highlighted from ongoing research on hallucinogens.
Research by two of the authors with the Unaio do Vegetal (UDV) Church in
Brazil is examined in terms of the model.
NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in respect of viruses that may have been transmitted
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 28, 2002 at 10:29:16 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Co-Counselling if U can find the network in yr town: someone U call to share
with (however many times U both decide together) U talk for 15, then give
feedback for 5, and then U do the same for them.
Psychotherapy, if U can find someone willing to do it on cheap basis
Since U have access to the net, why not start a search there.
Randy, i think our prob is more of a case of having too many options (rather
than not enough) though, of course, waiting lists are a trip!!
I’m still waiting for ‘therapy’ from our ‘socialised’ system of medicine…
18 months later. London has become like NYC was, is? unless u have just slit
yr risks, or U say U r about to, forget getting the help U need! OR be
prepared to wait for a long time.
Good Luck; U might be far more blessed in this area than I; my nickname is
Ms Hugelyproud, (but I’m funked if I know what of!!)
Hugs
—–Original Message—–
From: Randy Hencken [mailto:randyhencken@hotmail.com]
Sent: 21 November 2002 20:49
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend to
me?
I’ll chime in here, although I am starting to feel like some kind of SMART
recovery bible thumper, just kidding (check out their web site at
www.smartrecovery.org or burn in … oops, bible thumping). I have been
clean
off methadone, heroin and cocaine for almost 1.5 years. After I did the
ibogaine I attended Smart meetings once a week for about three months. I
attended a few more meetings over the next couple months, and then I
“graduated” from the program. I had made a change in my life and the urges
to use dope had subsided. Recently I attended a smart recovery coordinators
conference and started a meeting here in San Diego on Tuesday nights. I
volunteer my time there because I like SMART and I like helping people.
Most people who quit addictive behaviors simply quit, without going to
rehabs and 12-step meetings. SMART, essentially, is a guideline teaching
skills that those other people discovered on their own. As opposed to most
treatments, we do not try to force square pegs through circular holes. SMART
is an acronym for Self Management And Recovery Training. This means it is a
program about taking care of you. We do not have sponsors, we realize that
only you are responsible for you. We don’t have arbitrary steps for you to
follow. We do have a 4 point program: 1) Finding and maintaining the
motivation to change your addictive behavior. 2) Learning how to cope with
urges and cravings. 3) Problem solving and lastly 4) life style balance /
lifestyle change.
As you may have noticed I refer to addiction as addictive behavior and not
as a disease. Smart recovery doesn’t buy into the disease theory. We view
addiction as a maladaptive behavior. You probably started using your
substance because it was fun or benefited you in some positive way; now
you’re stuck with a bad habit. You learned your addiction and you can
unlearn it. SMART is about empowerment not powerlessness.
We discourage labeling yourself as an addict/alcoholic. We believe that you
will follow your thoughts or you will act the way you think about yourself.
If you label yourself then you are setting yourself up for failure or
relapse.
We don’t count days, because we know how damaging it can be to lose all
those days when you have a lapse. Instead if you lapse come to a meeting
and talk about it and hopefully you will lapse less frequently. It is
better to have had two lapses in two years then to be back at step one
because of a little lapse.
SMART is based on rational thought and scientific study. The program is
willing to change as science changes. SMART is a non-profit organization,
so no one is trying to get rich off of your difficulties.
Some of the tools we work with in SMART are: rational emotive behavioral
therapy (REBT), cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), destructive self talk
awareness and refusal method (DISARM, which is our version of addictive
voice recognition technique (AVRT) which was coined and is owned by Rational
Recovery), disputing irrational beliefs (DIB’s) and there are many more. We
try to do actual work at a meeting.
We don’t sit around being gloomy and telling war stories. We don’t linger
in the past. SMART is about creating a better future.
If there aren’t meetings near you, start one. It doesn’t take a
professional. All you need to do is educate yourself about the philosophies
of SMART. You can find these ideas in their manual, on the web and in their
recommended readings. We need more SMART meetings. We need to create a
voice as loud as the twelve stepper’s voice. People in the throws of
addiction don’t know that we exist. They are busy learning harmful dogma
that keeps them wrapped up in their addiction. If you have time and you are
tired of the twelve steps get involved in SMART. Help out your neighbors.
Also there are meetings on-line and if you simply learn the philosophies you
will be headed in the right direction. There is a lot more to SMART than
what I’ve mentioned here.
Vector, can you save this and reprint it for me next time someone asks a
similar question.
Is ibogaine a proper noun? Should I spell it with a capitol I?
Randy Hencken
_________________________________________________________________
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intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
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attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in
respect of viruses that may have been transmitted
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) Re:don’t mature right?
Date: November 27, 2002 at 8:52:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
We recommend that they be allowed to mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t mature right. <
This is incredibly silly reasoning Dana. Are you recommending this, or is
someone else doing this? V asks, just now, “is he serious?”
“They don’t mature right?” Right for what? None of my fixed cats seem to
have had any problems maturing “right.”
And how many litters have there already been? How many siamese kittens/cats
are sitting on death row now waiting for a loving human to take them home
and share a place with them, but won’t get the chance because Dana thinks it
too profitable to get his own fixed, cause he’s making money off breeding
yet more cats and can’t be bothered to snatch that pussy and put it in a box
and take it to the vet. Dana, It took me a while to finally catch the one
completely ferel cat living in our back bedroom all last winter, until I
could finally get up the nerve to chase the unwilling cat around, but I did
it, and he’s great now, and fixed, and loving.
Sorry, on this point I’m truely at a loss Dana, and as Sandy notes, (and
wow, what a great point about the meth merchants Sandy) I too can really
only work on myself and my surroundings. But that said, V and I are still
willing to come over and catch them for you, no trouble, no fees. We’ve
gotten quite good at it. And what about the other cats that aren’t siamese
cats at your place? You are willfully catering to people who don’t stike me
as people after a pet or friend, but rather after status symbols. “Oh looook
at me, I’m so cooool, I have siamese cats, none of those boring other cats
for meee.” How much do you sell these living breathing thinking creatures
for Dana?
“Don’t mature right.” Egad my friend.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: booker w
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a breeding pair of siamese is
worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it would contribute to less
suffering? How is that different than the methadone clinics who want to
keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine legal? Or Ms. Mash
wanting to keep all the glory and patents about ibogaine research? I’m
afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me included. That’s why we
really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
From: Dana Beal
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t know
any more about computers, but I understand why they’re
different.
Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a guess.
Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little crazy.
Carla B
The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them with the box and try
to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t mature right.
Dana/cnw
Dana/cnw
Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online
From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 27, 2002 at 2:29:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I gotta reply to this one… you feel like a breeding pair of siamese is worth too much money to get them fixed, even if it would contribute to less suffering? How is that different than the methadone clinics who want to keep all the money so they don’t help make ibogaine legal? Or Ms. Mash wanting to keep all the glory and patents about ibogaine research? I’m afraid all humans suffer from selfishness… me included. That’s why we really can only work on ourselves first.
Sandy Watson
>From: Dana Beal
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
>Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:37 -0500
>
>>Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time anyone
>>who knows anything about computers said it in a way
>>that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t know
>>any more about computers, but I understand why they’re
>>different.
>>
>>Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a guess.
>>
>>Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
>>conferences, have a great time! I will try to be at
>>Seattle, but the admission price is a little crazy.
>>
>>Carla B
>>
>
>The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that refuse to go. I
>mean, cats that hide when you come after them with the box and try
>to put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this black half-pint
>called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a breeding pair of
>Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
>
>Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a response from
>Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s never any problem
>placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are more of a
>challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to mature and have one
>litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t mature right.
>
>Dana/cnw
>
>Dana/cnw
Protect your PC – Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference PLUS
Date: November 27, 2002 at 11:14:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That sunk it, I’m stealing my dad’s credit card and going
The S.F. forum is a much better deal than Seattle (all my time at the
workshop is going to Patrick and Deborah, I’m just the moderator)
S.F. is a real Ibogaine forum, and there’s a van going straight to
Seattle. We’ll probably miss the very beginning of Seattle, but the
S.F. thing is 1/8th the price(!) and Seattle is not mostly about
Ibogaine anyway. We’re also doing something for locals at another
location at 6:30 pm –just after the HRC workshop– before I make the
mad dash back to S.F. to catch my flight to NYC, where I leave the
next day to Paris.
Here’s 2 emails, one about S.F., one about this separate meeting in Seattle:
At 3:32 PM -0800 11/23/02, steve e. wrote:
From: “steve e.” <brazilsteve@hotmail.com>
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl
Bcc:
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Nov 2002 23:32:57.0025 (UTC)
FILETIME=[A71A6B10:01C29348]
Subject: [IBOGAINE] First San Francisco Ibogaine Forum
Sender: ibogaine-admin@lists.calyx.nl
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X-Original-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:32:56 -0800
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:32:56 -0800
Status:
Please forward to your interested contacts / appropriate forums and
email lists
San Francisco Ibogaine Forum:
New Directions in Treatment
This one-day event will gather experts and practitioners for a
unique opportunity to discuss the progress and promise of the use of
Ibogaine in the treatment of addiction.
The event is open to the general public, and is intended to be of
interest to a broad range of people, including harm reduction
advocates, addicts, students, teachers, therapists, healers,
parents, and those with loved ones who need help.
IBOGAINE is a powerful natural medicine derived from the West
African shrub T. iboga, which has been used by the Bwiti for
countless years as a sacred plant teacher. Extensively studied for
its pharmacological effects since the 1930’s, much more recently the
alkaloid was shown to be uniquely effective for addiction treatment:
not only does the user receive powerful visions and insights about
the nature and causes of their addiction but are also relieved of
the physical urge to use again, often after a single treatment! The
effect is best-studied in the case of opiates, and shows great
promise in the treatment of other addictions as well.
Many have experienced the pain of loss due to addiction. Hard drugs
disrupt and affect millions of lives daily in every part of the
world. Being an addict often means living without hope or support,
the things they most desperately need.
A plant-based medicine with extraordinary power works in a manner
which acts upon the spiritual, mental and physical being, breaking
the chains of addiction.
We welcome you to join this extraordinary panel of experts for one
day in San Francisco:
Saturday November 30, 2002
9AM to 6PM
Thomas Starr King Auditorium
First Unitarian Univeralist Church & Center
1187 Franklin St. at Geary
San Francisco
only $35 at the door ($25 advance)
For reservations, call 415-567-0873
Participants
Deborah C. Mash, Ph.D. (Professor, Univ. of Miami Med School)
Dana Beal (Cures-Not-Wars)
Patrick K. Kroupa (Lord Digital, Mindvox)
Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld, MD (Dr. Hip)
Ed Rosenthal (Author & Activist)
Chris Conrad (Author & Activist)
Nelson Comerci, L.Ac. (Acupuncturist, Iboga Practitioner)
Others to be announced
We welcome your participation and urge you to place this unique
event on your calendar
FOR MORE GENERAL INFORMATION ON IBOGAINE:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ibogaine/ibogaine.shtml
http://www.cures-not-wars.org/links.html
At 9:51 PM -0800 11/26/02, Laurie Mischley wrote:
From: “Laurie Mischley” <lauriemischley@attbi.com>
To: “‘Dana Beal'” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: RE: Seattle trip
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:51:13 -0800
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Importance: Normal
Status:
Dana-
I’ll put it together for 6:30 Monday night. The individuals I’d most
like to invite are my naturopathic colleagues (I am an ND), those that
only know of iboga via moi, and some of the local individuals in town
that may be interested, I’m sure you are probably used to a pretty
diverse crowd. It’s short notice, but as long as you’re in, I’ll try to
put it together tomorrow. Mon, Dec 2, 6:30 pm at the Kirstin Gallery,
next door to the University Health Clinic, 5312 Roosevelt Way NE. A few
bldgs north of Dante’s, for those that know Seattle.
Feel free to invite the others you are traveling with- WE WANT TO LEARN
ABOUT OPTIONS AND POTENTIAL.
We have a small 2-bedroom house in Freemont, north-central Seattle. A
futon folds out in the living room, and there is a couch in the
basement, aka Jason’s office.
Let me know if you need a ride from the airport. Have a good trip.
My home # 206-297-7297
Cell# 290-8322 (for patients and urgencies)
My partner’s name is Jason and knows you are coming.
Laurie
—–Original Message—–
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@cures-not-wars.org]
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:22 PM
To: lauriemischley@attbi.com
Subject: Re: Seattle trip
For clarification-
Will you be staying at our place at all? Which nights?
The earliest we could do the lecture would be 6:30 or 7. What time
does the van leave Seattle? I’m afraid too many people will be gone
for the weekend if we do it over the weekend. Also, we need to rent
chairs, etc.
Let me know so I can try to pull it together.
Laurie
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 27, 2002 at 11:03:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t know
any more about computers, but I understand why they’re
different.
Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a guess.
Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little crazy.
Carla B
The problem is not lots of kittens. But cats that refuse to go. I
mean, cats that hide when you come after them with the box and try to
put them in it. That’s how we ended up with this black half-pint
called Orangy (color of his eyes). Preston, a breeding pair of
Siamese is worth too much money to have them fixed.
Last time I did this, on the Calyx list, I got a response from
Sertian at the Nathan Kline Institute. There’s never any problem
placing SIAMESE cats. Black and black ‘n whites are more of a
challenge. We recommend that they be allowed to mature and have one
litter before they’re fixed. Otherwise they don’t mature right.
Dana/cnw
Dana/cnw
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) cats and questions- and getting the creatures fixed
Date: November 27, 2002 at 6:58:21 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Dana, ( I’m posting this here on-list as your note went out on this list)-
Last week, I asked you in person if you were simply offering kittens to strangers or if you knew the people you were giving these kittens away to.
You told me, to my face, “oh yes, I know everyone I give kittens to, and they all come back and give me updates on how they are doing,” or words to this effect.
Why did you tell me that, if you are now sending out mass mailings offering kittens to random folk?
I suppose some are not going to agree with me here, and find me a bleeding heart animal lover, but I don’t really care. I’m always a bit puzzled at people who work so hard for drug reform/harm reduction/etc but do not seem to consider the other living breathing creatures who are facing lotsa travails and turmoils, primarily due to people who do not consider the results of cats mating repeatedly.
The CACC euthanasizes tons, (thousands upon thousands every year- something like 60,000 last year in Manhattan alone if I’m remembering correctly) of kittens, cats, puppies and dogs who need homes but never get them. The Humane Society has been known to do free fixing in situations in which there are multiple cats in need of said fixing.
The reason I asked you about whether you knew the people you give the kittens away to is because there are many, many inhuman types out there who specifically troll for people like you, who (repeatedly because they refuse to get their cats fixed- and why not I simply cannot understand) offer kittens willy nilly. These monsters collect said kittens from people like you, then sell the little furry fellows to animal testers, and worse, to people who use them for nasty past times like dog-fight training, to get the dogs used to blood and killing. In my own mind, this is really easy to not contribute to.
The solution would be to get the cats fixed. It’s very easy to do, and only takes a little time, probably less time even than that you are taking trying to find the ones on the way homes now. Granted you currently have some on the way who need homes, but do you really feel comfortable simply handing them out as you are offering to do? I’m not saying don’t give them away, I’m only wondering if it matters to you at all where they end up as long as it isn’t in 9 Bleecker. Taking care of an animal is a lot of work, work that many people might think is easy until they actually undertake it. Cats shit, meow, shed fur, scratch furniture, break things, and create havoc inside city apartments. Then the animals often end up neglected, abused, abandoned, and worse. Why continue contributing to this situation Dana? Kittens are cute and cuddly to most people. Spraying males or a dripping blood female in heat with scores of male cats howling and fighting outside the window for the chance to add to the overpopulation is not cute nor cuddly, and not something a lot of people want to deal with.
The homeless animal situation in NYC is out of control. The animals face horrors way above and beyond the worst that any junky ever does. (Will ibogaine take care of the homeless animal situation in NYC and the rest of the US?) 30 abandoned cats were recently found in an apartment in Queens who all need homes, (10 of which were found dead already) and probably won’t get them, because people don’t fix their cats. V just helped out at another home with 60 some animals who all needed homes because the owner/rescuer died and left all these animals in limbo in yet another overcrowded with rescued animals home until they too find permanent homes, if they are lucky. (Of which we personally took 2 and found another home for another ONE sole cat- bringing our own current total to 9 fixed animals living with us in our tiny LES hovel.) If you search “animal rescue” online, you will see just how many animals in NYC need homes now as it is.
I’m a little bothered that you told me one thing to my face, then within scant days sent out mass emailings seemingly saying the exact opposite to that which you said to my face, but the important thing is the cats, not what you said to me. They cannot fix themselves. They will continue to add to the overpopulation in the city until you take the initiative. They won’t be mad at you if you fix them. It even helps them with territorial issues, will keep them from adding more spray to 9 Bleecker, and will help keep any flea and litter situation there under control. It is not a difficult thing to help the animals out with this Dana. I understand you give a lot of cats a home at 9 Bleecker, but it doesn’t help much if they keep pumping out ever more kittens who need homes when people could be adopting from the death row at CACC and other “shelters” too.
V is willing to help take your cats one or two at a time to a vet to get fixed. Please let me/us know, and we’ll get cracking. In the mean time, please do not simply hand out your kittens to strangers. That would suck. Please make sure who it is you wind up giving them to and what they plan to do with them. Thanks.
Peace,
Preston
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 27, 2002 at 12:28:41 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Anyone on this list got too much time on their
hands? I do!
(have a cold), so can help you out:
Questions for Dr. Laura
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5465291.html
That one is hysterical 🙂
Carla B
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 27, 2002 at 12:26:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Steal two, I don’t want to miss this either 🙂
Carla B
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
That sunk it, I’m stealing my dad’s credit card and
going
__________________________________________________
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From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 27, 2002 at 12:20:09 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That sunk it, I’m stealing my dad’s credit card and going
On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:04:55 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:40:28PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:
| There is a good chance of methadone advocates dropping in on the
ibogaine
| session so it would appreciated if anti methadone positions are
carefully
| measured in terms of reality issues rather than non-applicable
nida promoted
| theology.
|
| The alliance of methadone and ibogaine advocates is as natural
as it gets and
| certainly beneficial to both groups.
I don’t understand. Are you trying to say this would be a bad time
to
mention that methadone blows dead goats…? What about marijuana
maintenance camps and the Philip K. Dick receptor complex…? If
we do
not mention this critically important information, then WHO will
do so?
If not us, then who? Have you thought about that Howard…?
Okay people, time for a Complete Fucking Riot! Woo Hoo!!!! Let’s
see
what we can do to push Allan’s insurance rates into the stratosphere.
Don’t worry, all is well. You know how diplomatic I am; Dana has
promised
to be on his very best behavior — whatever that means exactly;
now if
only Deborah will chill out and not say any crazy shit, we’ll all
be Just
Fine. EVERYTHING is in good hands. I’m absolutely, positively,
and
without a doubt, sure of this. I think.
Yo, anybody want sum cats? Distance is not an issue, Fedex delivers
anything; even stuff other than drugs hidden in videotapes. “Did
you MARK
the box that says [.] Highly Unstable Explosives? / You did? / Well
that’s
fine then.”
Patrick
p.s., Is it okay to mention the Book of Revelations clearly documents
that
junkie space aliens planted ibogaine in the Gabon?
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 27, 2002 at 12:20:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Anyone on this list got too much time on their hands? I do!
(have a cold), so can help you out:
Questions for Dr. Laura
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5465291.html
Re: yesterday’s knife fighting ad
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5288293.html
HELP ive been traumatized for life
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5975149.html
If only I could get everyone to agree….
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/5098358.html
Bill
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 26, 2002 at 11:04:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:40:28PM -0500], [HSLotsof@aol.com] wrote:
| There is a good chance of methadone advocates dropping in on the ibogaine
| session so it would appreciated if anti methadone positions are carefully
| measured in terms of reality issues rather than non-applicable nida promoted
| theology.
|
| The alliance of methadone and ibogaine advocates is as natural as it gets and
| certainly beneficial to both groups.
I don’t understand. Are you trying to say this would be a bad time to
mention that methadone blows dead goats…? What about marijuana
maintenance camps and the Philip K. Dick receptor complex…? If we do
not mention this critically important information, then WHO will do so?
If not us, then who? Have you thought about that Howard…?
Okay people, time for a Complete Fucking Riot! Woo Hoo!!!! Let’s see
what we can do to push Allan’s insurance rates into the stratosphere.
Don’t worry, all is well. You know how diplomatic I am; Dana has promised
to be on his very best behavior — whatever that means exactly; now if
only Deborah will chill out and not say any crazy shit, we’ll all be Just
Fine. EVERYTHING is in good hands. I’m absolutely, positively, and
without a doubt, sure of this. I think.
Yo, anybody want sum cats? Distance is not an issue, Fedex delivers
anything; even stuff other than drugs hidden in videotapes. “Did you MARK
the box that says [.] Highly Unstable Explosives? / You did? / Well that’s
fine then.”
Patrick
p.s., Is it okay to mention the Book of Revelations clearly documents that
junkie space aliens planted ibogaine in the Gabon?
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 26, 2002 at 10:52:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Mr. Genius, shut up and finish already 😉
Carla B
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 06:21:31AM -0000], [Curtis
Hersch] wrote:
|
| Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to
it, bro I have
| spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark
manuscript. This is a
| paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated
Dec 2001. It is
| Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all
bro but get
| real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were
nearly done end
| of 2001, get this out.
<… Cut …>
Curtis,
Hey do0d, see you in San Francisco.
Listen, please do not do this. By “this” I mean
start dumping lengthy
messages addressed to me into the ibogaine list. I
realize this is
probably my fault for not replying to email in a
timely manner. The
problem is every time I open my mailbox — even with
filters throwing 90%
of it into other mailboxes automagically — it’s
still like, “holy fucking
shit. No way. No fucking way mahn…”
And the problem is, when people write one or two
line messages that ask a
question, they usually get a reply. When someone
writes me 20 well
written paragraphs; it gets thrown into, “I should
write this person a
thoughtful response” mailbox, and then just scrolls
into oblivion because
I never have the time. I apologize for that, and I
know you’re a positive
person who makes good contributions to things and
stuff.
Basically: yeah I know all that. Please chill.
That was a piece of a
manuscript that went to Francis around the time he
was finishing his Opium
book I think, and we were exchanging stuff about the
imaginary
organization called TA. Tits and Ass, whoopsie, I
meant to say, Thinking
Anonymous, sort of the anti-12-step drivel group.
‘Cept SMART appears to
already be that. Anyway Lost Ark was one piece,
then there is Pieces of
Mind, Spirits, Two Primary Colors Having an
Argument, and some other shit.
It has all been reorganized and pulled and the
timeline is solid. It goes
from roughly 1994 and the fall of MindVox, to the
very start of 2000, a
few months after I came back from Thailand. Going
further back or
forward, and it is too much text. It will come in
at roughly 125K words
after editing — mine — probably 100K after
whomever the editor is,
finishes slicing n’ dicing it. I was trying to
compress all experience
covering ’bout a decade into one book, and there’s
just too much of it,
I’ve got enough for 3-5 books. I just need to hit
the finish line on the
first one.
The main problem is that it’s just a huge amount of
work. What is in Lost
Ark is solid, since it’s written in 1999 after I am
more or less halfway
together, and pulling data from laptop to Sun, to
OS/X; but basically
pulling data. 1994-96 is shit splattered all over
the place, and 96 –
early ’99 is… I have roughly 800 pages of
handwritten notebooks. Which
are crumpled, have ashes, blood, dirt, coffee
stains, splattered all over
’em literally — not just figuratively. This adds
character and works
wonders to pull me back into the spaces where it was
all written, just in
case the words weren’t enough, but attempting to
scan it in results in
’bout 1600 pages of this:
I’
–Jf~t ~~~f+~
;r ,1
~$ w~ w~nd on qown the +o~~( our shadows t~+~er t~~
ffปF ~p~ts…,
~~d ~eppelin ,
…time spins, as moments and fraQmenrs stream
throuqh my fietd
of perception, and I’m back once more in the place
tqat’s no longer here,
p~t
falling from there. Shapes and colors have yet to
r~q~in their solid,
ab$oluteness, lines reach out and keep going, nev~r
r~~~ly acknowledging
~h~ir
I
boundaries, as rainbow washes spray over the surface
9# monochrome walls,
burning their light and darkness across a slashed
and blurred tapestry of
perpetual motion.
Qft~~~P Q
f:j,n,t~~f~R~f A~ts, places, t:~,l+R~~’ ~+1;It+ft~g
time, fo~fii
s
nfeama Or! , ,!”‘, , ‘ :1’, “!
‘1,.~./f'”~TI;!.: ;’;”\;”:” Ii’ ;,
1 ” : ‘. ‘;i” , , , , \I 1 …~, \ 1, 1
, c –” I;. i
;’ , ! , , ‘ ~,,’ 1
“‘
l
.j’
, .’1\
I
i –
,
That’s a major fucking pain in the ass to sift
through, figure out what to
pull, and for the most part just copy by hand since
even the best OCR
software I have ever found, that will attempt to
scan in handwriting once
“taught” is not managing to do this with what I’ve
got.
Doan’ worry, it’s coming.
Patrick
__________________________________________________
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] seattle hrc conference
Date: November 26, 2002 at 10:40:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
There is a good chance of methadone advocates dropping in on the ibogaine
session so it would appreciated if anti methadone positions are carefully
measured in terms of reality issues rather than non-applicable nida promoted
theology.
The alliance of methadone and ibogaine advocates is as natural as it gets and
certainly beneficial to both groups.
Howard
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 26, 2002 at 10:11:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick, thanks. LMAO. That was the first time anyone
who knows anything about computers said it in a way
that I understood. I get it! 🙂 I still don’t know
any more about computers, but I understand why they’re
different.
Dana, you have a lot of kittens huh? 😉 Just a guess.
Hey all of you who are going to all the ibogaine
conferences, have a great time! I will try to be at
Seattle, but the admission price is a little crazy.
Carla B
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
| >From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid
fetish tech. NeXT.
| Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed systems. No
support of open source or
| Linux. You can write, you don’t write anything
about computers it’s all
| this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your
mind and made all of you
| into losers.
Look, THAT’S IT. THAT right there, is why I’m even
replying to your
message. Allow me to ‘splain. OS/X *is* NeXTSTEP
2002. It’s the
Batmobile. Solaris is a rusted, dented, atomic
powered tank, dragging 18
phone lines behind it, that JUST KEEPS GOING.
Windoze (all versions,
including eXtra Problems), is a Pinto held together
with superglue. But
it has a life size photo of a Lexus hung in front of
it, and most people
never make it past that.
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] good pain article
Date: November 26, 2002 at 7:30:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pubdate: Mon, 21 Oct 2002
Source: Report Magazine (CN AB)
Copyright: 2002 Report Magazine, United Western Comm Ltd
Contact: ar@incentre.net
Website: http://www.report.ca/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/1327
Author: Candis McLean
Note: This is the BC Edition
MILLIONS SUFFER SEVERE, UNNECESSARY AGONY
Patients And Doctors Fight For Clear Rules On The Use Of Narcotics For
Long-Term, Unbearable Pain
THE trouble with pain is that it hurts.
Worse, severe long-term pain packs a double wallop: it also produces
permanent neurological damage. “Pain is a disease no different than
cancer,” explains internationally renowned pain therapist Dr. Frank Adams,
who left Canada in 2001 over his disagreement with the treatment of pain in
this country.
He now practises in Houston, Texas. “Pain is destructive to the body and
body systems.
It alters the immune system over the long term, gradually affects other
organ systems, and measurably changes the chemistry and electrical firing
system of the brain so that, if untreated, people end up with a range of
neuro-cognitive abnormalities which impair memory, language functions and
information-processing efficiency.
URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n2145.a01.html
——————————
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Chippewa Demands Peyote Rights…
Date: November 26, 2002 at 3:52:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pubdate: Sat, 23 Nov 2002
Source: Traverse City Record-Eagle (MI)
Webpage: http://www.record-eagle.com/2002/nov/23pey.htm
Copyright: 2002 The Traverse City Record-Eagle
Contact: letters@record-eagle.com
Website: http://www.record-eagle.com/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/1336
Author: Associated Press
Bookmarks: http://www.mapinc.org/spirit.htm (Spiritual or Sacramental)
http://www.mapinc.org/area/Michigan
TC MAN WANTS SON TO USE PEYOTE
Gt Band Member Wants Son, 4, to Participate in His Church’s Peyote-Laden Rites
WHITE CLOUD (AP) – A Michigan man said Friday the court system is
restricting his religious freedom by prohibiting his 4-year-old son
from being given peyote during American Indian spiritual ceremonies.
“This burdens me,” said Jonathan Fowler, 35, a member of the Grand
Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians.
Fowler, of Traverse City, testified in Newaygo County Family Court
during a legal hearing stemming from a custody dispute with his
ex-wife, Kristin Hanslovsky, 31, of Montague.
Webpage: http://www.record-eagle.com/2002/nov/23pey.htm
——————————
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Philip Dick Liked Cats, so….
Date: November 26, 2002 at 3:19:34 PM EST
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Breeding pair of Siamese available now. Will have healthy, non-inbred
kitties…
Also a diminuative Bombay (Black Siamese) and Japanese Tuxedo-cat
pair (will have 50% Siamese, 50% Bombay).
Lots of Siamese and Bombay kittens available in December, for Christmas.
Contact Dana or Alice 212-677-4899.
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Having a cat or cats can help with recovery…
Date: November 26, 2002 at 3:32:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Breeding pair of Siamese available now. Will have healthy, non-inbred
kitties…
Also a diminuative Bombay (Black Siamese) and Japanese Tuxedo-cat
pair (will have 50% Siamese, 50% Bombay).
Lots of Siamese and Bombay kittens available in December, for Christmas.
Contact Dana or Alice 212-677-4899.
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 26, 2002 at 1:23:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:57:27PM -0800], [resedit@hush.com] wrote:
| I would like to say that in studying the history of the computer
| underground and hacking you were one of my role models. Hacking sites
| still reprint articles you wrote when you were 11 years old. You were a
| prodigy. But you’re not a hacker anymore. In LOD you were the same as
| Kevin Mitnick, head social engineer. A glorified con man who was smart
| enough to learn everything and then corrupted it all to destroy systems
| and people’s lives. None of you were learning and contributing anything,
| all of you stole money and used your power to fuck over people you
| wanted to destroy.
Sorry, but I’ve done a lot of drugs, suffered extensive neurological
damage, and in fact it’s a miracle I’m as high-functioning as I am. I
have no recollection of the events in question.
Here’s a rationalization: no action that “we” allegedly took, is any worse
than what our glorious Gub’mint is grabbing up for itself as we speak,
while it rewrites pretty much all laws that pertain to individual privacy,
and freedom. “And we will stamp out freedom until there are no terrorists
left! (Inside my mind).” If anything, we were more ethical ’bout it.
Here’s another answer: “Power corrupts, absolute power is kinda neat.”
With thanks to Bill Ross for that quote.
| >From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid fetish tech. NeXT.
| Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed systems. No support of open source or
| Linux. You can write, you don’t write anything about computers it’s all
| this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your mind and made all of you
| into losers.
Look, THAT’S IT. THAT right there, is why I’m even replying to your
message. Allow me to ‘splain. OS/X *is* NeXTSTEP 2002. It’s the
Batmobile. Solaris is a rusted, dented, atomic powered tank, dragging 18
phone lines behind it, that JUST KEEPS GOING. Windoze (all versions,
including eXtra Problems), is a Pinto held together with superglue. But
it has a life size photo of a Lexus hung in front of it, and most people
never make it past that.
What decade are you in…? Solaris *IS* open source. The source code was
released years ago. OS/X is running Mach, with a BSD 4.4 kernel called
Darwin. It is OPEN SOURCE. In fact, here:
http://www.opendarwin.org/
Linux is … very interesting, if you’re a kid, who wants to learn about
unix. God bless, play with it. It becomes much less interesting if you
do not have infinite spare time and actually need to use the computer to
accomplish something useful RIGHT NOW, not 18 revisions later when 12 of
the libs which are at 0.6.2.1 become stable enough to not core dump every
10 clicks.
If you want a stable, bulletproof, open source server, then BSD kicks
Linux’s ass in.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
| Drugs are for losers.
Oh shaddup, go smoke some crack, and jack off to your Richard Stallman and
Linus Torvalds photo collection.
Patrick
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo For Resedit
Date: November 26, 2002 at 9:44:02 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: resedit@hush.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Resedit,
Gee, thanks for sharing, you know so much. Got a
couple questions for ya.
What OS, hardware and software do YOU THINK Mindvox
should be run on? This is really important to recovery
so get it right.
Make a detailed list of what Mindvox should be. Better
yet, design the entire site complete with all coding
and content and send it off to Patrick, I am sure he
will be tickled.
Please tell us what is wrong with ibogaine, you know,
challenge its anti-addictive properties, tell us how
it don’t work and didn’t work for us, how it is
nothing more than some kind of ACID (or whatever you
believe) – that I (for instance) am lying. Remember to
use citations with your claims.
Tell us what you think is better than ibogiane and
why, maybe UROD tickles you, or maybe you think
addicts should be simply lined up and shot, maybe
burned at the stake.
What religion should we all follow? What is your
religion?
What should we read, what shouldn’t we read? Do you
read, if so what?
What kind of sex can we have (if any)? Do you have
sex, if so with what?
Who should our friends be? Who are your friends?
What thoughts are evil and which ones are good? For
instance is getting you strung out and dropping you
off in Harlem (naked with a sign that says “I HATE
NIGGERS”) a good thought or a bad one? OK, skip the
Harlem bit, just get you strung out, take your dope
away and see if ibogaine works or not – I think that
is a good thought, what do you think? It is simple,
effective and straight forward, and VERY convincing…
What kinds of foods can we eat? What do you eat? How
much do you weigh/what is your height?
List all medications we can and cannot have as well as
when we are allowed and not allowed to take them.
What medications are you on? Do you drink? Do you
smoke? Do you use Sugar?
What kinds of activities should we report to the
authorities or should we just report everything and
let them sort it out?
What things can we say and what things can’t we say?
In fact, give us a list of everything we should do and
everything we should not do, be detailed and specific.
I need this list so I don’t sin any longer, it is up
to you to enlighten me, if not you are the sinner who
will burn in hell forever for not spreading the word.
Brett
— resedit@hush.com wrote:
I would like to say that in studying the history of
the computer underground and hacking you were one of
my role models. Hacking sites still reprint articles
you wrote when you were 11 years old. You were a
prodigy. But you’re not a hacker anymore. In LOD you
were the same as Kevin Mitnick, head social
engineer. A glorified con man who was smart enough
to learn everything and then corrupted it all to
destroy systems and people’s lives. None of you were
learning and contributing anything, all of you stole
money and used your power to fuck over people you
wanted to destroy.
From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid
fetish tech. NeXT. Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed
systems. No support of open source or Linux. You can
write, you don’t write anything about computers it’s
all this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your
mind and made all of you into losers.
Drugs are for losers.
I am disgusted that Mindvox is now some promotional
service for ibogaine and psychedelic drugs. Every
other banner is some drug site. The login now lists
psychedlic drugs conferences. Who cares about
ibogaine. I don’t think it’s fair that nearly
everyone who knows what Mindvox is comes here and
finds this junk instead. It’s like using a legend
that had great meaning to sell used cars.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to
get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate
Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427
__________________________________________________
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From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 26, 2002 at 8:20:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 resedit@hush.com wrote:
From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid fetish tech. NeXT. Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed systems. No support of open source or Linux. You can write, you don’t write anything about computers it’s all this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your mind and made all of you into losers.
Drugs are for losers.
I am disgusted that Mindvox is now some promotional service for ibogaine and psychedelic drugs. Every other banner is some drug site. The login now lists psychedlic drugs conferences. Who cares about ibogaine. I don’t think it’s fair that nearly everyone who knows what Mindvox is comes here and finds this junk instead. It’s like using a legend that had great meaning to sell used cars.
it must be troll season! =)
__________________________________________________________________________
| |
| League of Surrealist Discord – www.lsdrecords.net |
| |
| ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds… |
————————————————————————–
From: resedit@hush.com
Subject: [ibogaine] foo
Date: November 25, 2002 at 10:57:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I would like to say that in studying the history of the computer underground and hacking you were one of my role models. Hacking sites still reprint articles you wrote when you were 11 years old. You were a prodigy. But you’re not a hacker anymore. In LOD you were the same as Kevin Mitnick, head social engineer. A glorified con man who was smart enough to learn everything and then corrupted it all to destroy systems and people’s lives. None of you were learning and contributing anything, all of you stole money and used your power to fuck over people you wanted to destroy.
From .com up all of you have promoted this stupid fetish tech. NeXT. Now it’s OS/X and Sun. All closed systems. No support of open source or Linux. You can write, you don’t write anything about computers it’s all this stupid drug junk which has destroyed your mind and made all of you into losers.
Drugs are for losers.
I am disgusted that Mindvox is now some promotional service for ibogaine and psychedelic drugs. Every other banner is some drug site. The login now lists psychedlic drugs conferences. Who cares about ibogaine. I don’t think it’s fair that nearly everyone who knows what Mindvox is comes here and finds this junk instead. It’s like using a legend that had great meaning to sell used cars.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Drugs are for losers.
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program:
https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] glossy mag for female injectors
Date: November 25, 2002 at 3:26:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pubdate: Tue, 19 Nov 2002
Source: Guardian, The (UK)
Copyright: 2002 Guardian Newspapers Limited
Contact: letters@guardian.co.uk
Website: http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/175
Author: Andrew Osborn in Amsterdam
POT SHOTS FIRED AT JUNKIES’ MAGAZINE
Outrage Over ‘Drug Chic’ Women’S Glossy Offering Recipes And Beauty
Tips To Heroin And Cocaine Users
A women’s magazine with a difference will appear in the Netherlands
next month. Its glossy pages are filled with beauty tips, horoscopes,
feature stories about sex and cooking and oodles of health advice –
but Sister Mainline is aimed at female cocaine and heroin addicts, and
its contents have infuriated anti-drugs campaigners across Europe.
Held up as a classic example of “drug chic” publishing, the magazine
is partly funded by the Dutch health ministry. Its controversial
message is not that hard drugs are intrinsically bad, but that they
can be used “sensibly”.
Its print run may be just 1,500, but its impact in an increasingly
conservative political climate is likely to be explosive.
URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n2124.a01.html
——————————
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] methadone & Australian prisons
Date: November 25, 2002 at 2:17:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Pubdate: Sun, 17 Nov 2002
Source: Sun-Herald (Australia)
Copyright: 2002 John Fairfax Holdings Ltd
Contact: shletters@mail.fairfax.com.au
Website: http://www.sunherald.com.au/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/431
Author: Alex Mitchell, State Political Editor
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/find?136 (Methadone)
PRISON DRUG POLICY ‘CREATING ADDICTS’
The State prison system is feeding the problem of drug addiction by turning
heroin users into methadone addicts, the NSW Opposition said yesterday.
Latest figures from the Department of Corrective Services show the average
daily number of inmates on methadone is 1,036 – one in seven of the prison
population.
The number entering jail while methadone-addicted in 2000-01 was 1,277 and
the number of methadone addicts who left the system was 1,828. The number of
prisoners who started using methadone in prison in the same year was 762.
Shadow Corrective Services Minister Michael Richardson criticised the
government policy on the drug, saying: “Methadone is known as liquid
handcuffs because it’s tougher to shake than heroin.”
URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n2116.a11.html
————–
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] More Methadone Horror Stories
Date: November 25, 2002 at 10:28:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It turns out, due to someone’s ineptitude, that patients on a local
clinic were not being charged for their drug screens for a good number
of months. So, they decided to rectify the situation, which means that
nearly every patient showed up and collected their nasty-gram that said
“You have a back-balance of____” If you don’t pay up by <date>,
services will be suspended…
This would be bad enough, but it gets worse. The person responsible
for writing up the letter gave them to the receptionist to hand
out…conveniently, she is out on leave for the time-frame provided to
pay up, returning the day after all of the fallout will have settled.
And the stink riseth even higher…while it is true that we haven’t
been charging for drug screens due to some sort of oversight, evidently
some billing genius decided that they weren’t charging patients enough
for drug screens, and they raised the price a few months ago without
bothering to advise ANYONE who actually works at the methadone clinic in
question…even the clinical director.
Too often, it feels like I’m just standing in line at the DMV.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] redirect to curtis hersch/try-do contrast
Date: November 25, 2002 at 9:54:38 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Oh, oops, you saw that already. And thanks Howard. I try. (see, some can try and even do. But this reminds me. Really brief, I’m not sure who wrote the thing about “don’t try, do” but I can’t say I necessarily agree in all cases. Ed Forchion would love to get out of jail, but can only try at this point. I’m sure there are even much better examples than this, but still, I wanted to say something about that in my quickly fashion.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:16 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] redirect to curtis hersch
In a message dated 11/25/02 9:03:48 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
> Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive
qualities.
>Does anyone know where there is a collection of links which are updated,
>about reasonable studies about cannabis and what good effects it has? MAPS
>does this for MDMA but that is almost all they handle, they’ve dropped
>ibogaine coverage and MAPINC does this for news releases but that is not
>what I’m looking for.
>
Please provide name and citation of Alper paper?
Akso, great site Preston, http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id348/pg1/
Thanks
Howard
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] preston peet / alper’s paper
Date: November 25, 2002 at 9:51:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
sorry Howard, I don’t know, I merely replied to a note that Curtis wrote. Perhaps he can direct us.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:06 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] preston peet / alper’s paper
In a message dated 11/25/02 9:03:48 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
> Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive
qualities.
Which paper is that?
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] redirect to curtis hersch
Date: November 25, 2002 at 9:16:45 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/25/02 9:03:48 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive
qualities.
Does anyone know where there is a collection of links which are updated,
about reasonable studies about cannabis and what good effects it has? MAPS
does this for MDMA but that is almost all they handle, they’ve dropped
ibogaine coverage and MAPINC does this for news releases but that is not
what I’m looking for.
Please provide name and citation of Alper paper?
Akso, great site Preston, http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id348/pg1/
Thanks
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] preston peet / alper’s paper
Date: November 25, 2002 at 9:06:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/25/02 9:03:48 AM, ptpeet@nyc.rr.com writes:
Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive
qualities.
Which paper is that?
Howard
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FWD Re: [oasismountain] Fw: schizophrenia incidence
Date: November 25, 2002 at 8:34:57 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is a couple years old now, maybe even close to 3 years old now, (despite the date on the top of the page- a repost date when disinfo.com updated their site), but there are a rather large number of links gathered here that you may appreciate Curtis, and everyone else too looking for this sort of info.
Peace,
Preston
http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id348/pg1/
Marijuana is Good For You!
Marijuana is a killer, if you ingest 15,000 pounds of the stuff within 15 minutes, a recent figure seen accredited to the US Drug Enforcement Administration suggests. Regardless of this dubious ‘fact’, eight US States have passed Medical Marijuana laws allowing people with a variety of ailments and medical complaints to legally use marijuana.
snip-
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FWD Re: [oasismountain] Fw: schizophrenia incidence
This is a really good article. Thanks for posting that Brett. I am so very tired of all the pseudoscience that is written up about the great dangers of cannabis. Apply even 5% of that to cigarettes or alcohol and see how it would hold up without all those kickbacks and lobbying groups to keep two of the most dangerous drugs legal.
Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive qualities. Does anyone know where there is a collection of links which are updated, about reasonable studies about cannabis and what good effects it has? MAPS does this for MDMA but that is almost all they handle, they’ve dropped ibogaine coverage and MAPINC does this for news releases but that is not what I’m looking for.
Thanks and peace out,
Curtis
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 Brett Calabrese wrote :
>Forwarded from another list. Brett
>
>— Les Smith <leesmithjr@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: Maia Szalavitz <maia@ECHONYC.COM>
> > To: <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:31 PM
> > Subject: schizophrenia incidence
> >
> >
> > To those who think that pot can lead to
> > schizophrenia, how would you
> > explain the research which finds the incidence
> > stable over the last 50
> > years, in which time marijuana use in the U.S. and
> > Europe went from
> > negligible to some 60% trying it in 1980?
> >
> > The jury remains out on whether it can precipitate
> > onset in those who are
> > vulnerable or whether those who are vulnerable just
> > like to smoke pot more
> > than other people. Also, in looking at the
> > schizophrenia and pot stuff, I
> > also saw that most studies found that schizophrenics
> > who smoke pot have
> > fewer “negative symptoms” (anhedonia, social
> > withdrawal) and more
> > “positive symptoms.” (hallucinations, etc.)
> >
> > Since it is the negative symptoms that are most
> > painful for people with
> > schizophrenia and they are the symptoms least
> > affected by traditional meds
> > (though newer ones can help some), it is not
> > surprising that they would
> > try to self-medicate with pot, and it seems that it
> > may actually help some
> > in some cases.
> >
> >
> > Epidemiology of schizophrenia.
> > Häfner H, an der Heiden W
> > Can J Psychiatry 1997 Mar 42:139-5
> >
> >
> > Abstract
> > OBJECTIVE: To characterize the epidemiology of
> > schizophrenia. METHOD:
> > Narrative literature review. RESULTS: Each year 1 in
> > 10,000 adults (12 to
> > 60 years of age) develops schizophrenia. Based on a
> > restrictive and
> > precise definition of the diagnosis and using
> > standardized assessment
> > methods and large, representative populations, the
> > incidence rates appear
> > stable across countries and cultures and over time,
> > at least for the last
> > 50 years. Schizophrenic patients are not born into
> > ecological and social
> > disadvantage. The uneven distribution of prevalence
> > rates is a result of
> > social selection: an early onset leads to social
> > stagnation, a late onset
> > to descent from a higher social status. The main age
> > range of risk for
> > schizophrenia is 20 to 35 years. It is still unclear
> > whether
> > schizophrenia-like late-onset psychoses (for
> > example, late paraphrenia)
> > after age 60 should be classified as schizophrenia
> > either
> > psychopathologically or etiologically. In 75% of
> > cases, first admission is
> > preceded by a prodromal phase with a mean length of
> > 5 years and a
> > psychotic prephase of one year’s duration. On
> > average, women fall ill 3 to
> > 4 years later than men and show a second peak of
> > onset around menopause.
> > Consequently, late-onset schizophrenias are more
> > frequent and more severe
> > in women than in men. The sex difference in age of
> > onset is smaller in
> > cases with a high genetic load and greater in cases
> > with a low genetic
> > load. Type of onset and core symptoms do not differ
> > between the sexes. The
> > most pronounced sex difference is the socially
> > negative illness behaviour
> > of young men. CONCLUSIONS: Among the factors
> > determining social course and
> > outcome are level of social development at onset,
> > the disorder itself (for
> > example, genetic liability, severity of symptoms,
> > and functional
> > deficits), general biological factors (for example,
> > estrogen), and sex-
> > and age-specific illness behaviour.
> >
> >
>———————————————————–
> > To unsubscribe put- unsubscribe Addict-L -in the
> > body of a
> > message to: listserv@listserv.kent.edu
> >
>———————————————————–
> > List archives and subscription options are at:
> > http://listserv.kent.edu/archives/Addict-L.html
> >
>———————————————————–
> > Send requests for help to
> > Addict-L-request@listserv.kent.edu
> >
>———————————————————–
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] FWD Re: [oasismountain] Fw: schizophrenia incidence
Date: November 25, 2002 at 1:19:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is a really good article. Thanks for posting that Brett. I am so very tired of all the pseudoscience that is written up about the great dangers of cannabis. Apply even 5% of that to cigarettes or alcohol and see how it would hold up without all those kickbacks and lobbying groups to keep two of the most dangerous drugs legal.
Dana also posted Ken Alper’s paper how cannabis has anti addictive qualities. Does anyone know where there is a collection of links which are updated, about reasonable studies about cannabis and what good effects it has? MAPS does this for MDMA but that is almost all they handle, they’ve dropped ibogaine coverage and MAPINC does this for news releases but that is not what I’m looking for.
Thanks and peace out,
Curtis
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 Brett Calabrese wrote :
Forwarded from another list. Brett
— Les Smith <leesmithjr@prodigy.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: Maia Szalavitz <maia@ECHONYC.COM>
To: <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: schizophrenia incidence
To those who think that pot can lead to
schizophrenia, how would you
explain the research which finds the incidence
stable over the last 50
years, in which time marijuana use in the U.S. and
Europe went from
negligible to some 60% trying it in 1980?
The jury remains out on whether it can precipitate
onset in those who are
vulnerable or whether those who are vulnerable just
like to smoke pot more
than other people. Also, in looking at the
schizophrenia and pot stuff, I
also saw that most studies found that schizophrenics
who smoke pot have
fewer “negative symptoms” (anhedonia, social
withdrawal) and more
“positive symptoms.” (hallucinations, etc.)
Since it is the negative symptoms that are most
painful for people with
schizophrenia and they are the symptoms least
affected by traditional meds
(though newer ones can help some), it is not
surprising that they would
try to self-medicate with pot, and it seems that it
may actually help some
in some cases.
Epidemiology of schizophrenia.
Häfner H, an der Heiden W
Can J Psychiatry 1997 Mar 42:139-5
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To characterize the epidemiology of
schizophrenia. METHOD:
Narrative literature review. RESULTS: Each year 1 in
10,000 adults (12 to
60 years of age) develops schizophrenia. Based on a
restrictive and
precise definition of the diagnosis and using
standardized assessment
methods and large, representative populations, the
incidence rates appear
stable across countries and cultures and over time,
at least for the last
50 years. Schizophrenic patients are not born into
ecological and social
disadvantage. The uneven distribution of prevalence
rates is a result of
social selection: an early onset leads to social
stagnation, a late onset
to descent from a higher social status. The main age
range of risk for
schizophrenia is 20 to 35 years. It is still unclear
whether
schizophrenia-like late-onset psychoses (for
example, late paraphrenia)
after age 60 should be classified as schizophrenia
either
psychopathologically or etiologically. In 75% of
cases, first admission is
preceded by a prodromal phase with a mean length of
5 years and a
psychotic prephase of one year’s duration. On
average, women fall ill 3 to
4 years later than men and show a second peak of
onset around menopause.
Consequently, late-onset schizophrenias are more
frequent and more severe
in women than in men. The sex difference in age of
onset is smaller in
cases with a high genetic load and greater in cases
with a low genetic
load. Type of onset and core symptoms do not differ
between the sexes. The
most pronounced sex difference is the socially
negative illness behaviour
of young men. CONCLUSIONS: Among the factors
determining social course and
outcome are level of social development at onset,
the disorder itself (for
example, genetic liability, severity of symptoms,
and functional
deficits), general biological factors (for example,
estrogen), and sex-
and age-specific illness behaviour.
———————————————————–
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 25, 2002 at 12:57:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Understood bro, did not mean to wave my arms around to get your attention but it worked 😉
What I mean to say and I guess has been said enough times so you may have become aware of it 😉 is that you write “tens better” 😉 then neary anybody I’ve ever seen. You’ve gone way down the road that a lot of us have been on and it is not enough to say that addictionology is a bad joke or the 12 steps suck, it is important to say why and why some of these people should not even be allowed to treat human beings. It is important to write about ibogaine in the way you do.
You may be pissed off about your experiences with “treatment professionals” or should I say treatment pimps 🙂 and other idiots, but thank god you went through it, because you write about it so very well. I think maybe you think most of this is about you and you’re doing whatever your thing is, but people do not get all excited and kiss your ass because you write well, they do that because you are writing our truth. And there isn’t anyone else doing that. That is so important. I only want you to know that and take it seriously enough to get it out there, because bro you can write. You saying it gets heard by so many more people then someone else saying it in a way that makes nobody listen to them.
You have talent bro and you made a amazing journey through the darkness and back into light, but you are speaking the truth for many people. This is important. Try to know that. It’s not just your ego trip or whatever you think of it.
Peace out and finish,
Curtis
On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 Patrick K. Kroupa wrote :
Curtis,
Hey do0d, see you in San Francisco.
Listen, please do not do this. By “this” I mean start dumping lengthy
messages addressed to me into the ibogaine list. I realize this is
probably my fault for not replying to email in a timely manner. The
problem is every time I open my mailbox — even with filters throwing 90%
of it into other mailboxes automagically — it’s still like, “holy fucking
shit. No way. No fucking way mahn…”
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 24, 2002 at 6:49:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Jon Freedlander wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
Why oh why do scatological discussions keep cropping up here?;-))
there is something inherently mystical about poop. maybe because its an
anagram.
duh, i mean a palindrome.
==========================================================================
| |
| League of Surrealist Discord – www.lsdrecords.net |
| |
| ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds… |
————————————————————————–
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 24, 2002 at 6:32:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
Why oh why do scatological discussions keep cropping up here?;-))
there is something inherently mystical about poop. maybe because its an
anagram.
==========================================================================
| |
| League of Surrealist Discord – www.lsdrecords.net |
| |
| ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds… |
————————————————————————–
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] FWD Re: [oasismountain] Fw: schizophrenia incidence
Date: November 24, 2002 at 3:14:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Forwarded from another list. Brett
— Les Smith <leesmithjr@prodigy.net> wrote:
—– Original Message —–
From: Maia Szalavitz <maia@ECHONYC.COM>
To: <ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: schizophrenia incidence
To those who think that pot can lead to
schizophrenia, how would you
explain the research which finds the incidence
stable over the last 50
years, in which time marijuana use in the U.S. and
Europe went from
negligible to some 60% trying it in 1980?
The jury remains out on whether it can precipitate
onset in those who are
vulnerable or whether those who are vulnerable just
like to smoke pot more
than other people. Also, in looking at the
schizophrenia and pot stuff, I
also saw that most studies found that schizophrenics
who smoke pot have
fewer “negative symptoms” (anhedonia, social
withdrawal) and more
“positive symptoms.” (hallucinations, etc.)
Since it is the negative symptoms that are most
painful for people with
schizophrenia and they are the symptoms least
affected by traditional meds
(though newer ones can help some), it is not
surprising that they would
try to self-medicate with pot, and it seems that it
may actually help some
in some cases.
Epidemiology of schizophrenia.
Häfner H, an der Heiden W
Can J Psychiatry 1997 Mar 42:139-5
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To characterize the epidemiology of
schizophrenia. METHOD:
Narrative literature review. RESULTS: Each year 1 in
10,000 adults (12 to
60 years of age) develops schizophrenia. Based on a
restrictive and
precise definition of the diagnosis and using
standardized assessment
methods and large, representative populations, the
incidence rates appear
stable across countries and cultures and over time,
at least for the last
50 years. Schizophrenic patients are not born into
ecological and social
disadvantage. The uneven distribution of prevalence
rates is a result of
social selection: an early onset leads to social
stagnation, a late onset
to descent from a higher social status. The main age
range of risk for
schizophrenia is 20 to 35 years. It is still unclear
whether
schizophrenia-like late-onset psychoses (for
example, late paraphrenia)
after age 60 should be classified as schizophrenia
either
psychopathologically or etiologically. In 75% of
cases, first admission is
preceded by a prodromal phase with a mean length of
5 years and a
psychotic prephase of one year’s duration. On
average, women fall ill 3 to
4 years later than men and show a second peak of
onset around menopause.
Consequently, late-onset schizophrenias are more
frequent and more severe
in women than in men. The sex difference in age of
onset is smaller in
cases with a high genetic load and greater in cases
with a low genetic
load. Type of onset and core symptoms do not differ
between the sexes. The
most pronounced sex difference is the socially
negative illness behaviour
of young men. CONCLUSIONS: Among the factors
determining social course and
outcome are level of social development at onset,
the disorder itself (for
example, genetic liability, severity of symptoms,
and functional
deficits), general biological factors (for example,
estrogen), and sex-
and age-specific illness behaviour.
———————————————————–
To unsubscribe put- unsubscribe Addict-L -in the
body of a
message to: listserv@listserv.kent.edu
———————————————————–
List archives and subscription options are at:
http://listserv.kent.edu/archives/Addict-L.html
———————————————————–
Send requests for help to
Addict-L-request@listserv.kent.edu
———————————————————–
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From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Product Warning
Date: November 24, 2002 at 4:14:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Product Warnings
WARNING: This product warps space and time in its vicinity.
WARNING: This product attracts every other piece of matter in the universe, including the products of other manufacturers, with a force proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the distance between them.
CAUTION: The mass of this product contains the energy equivalent of 85 million tons of TNT per net ounce of weight.
HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE: This product contains minute electrically charged particles moving at velocities in excess of 500 million MPH.
CONSUMER NOTICE: Because of the “Uncertainty Principle,” it is impossible for the consumer to find out at the same time both precisely where this product is and how fast it is moving.
ADVISORY: There is an extremely small but non-zero chance that, through a process known as “tunneling,” this product may spontaneously disappear from its present location and reappear at any random place in the universe, including your neighbor’s domicile. The manufacturer will not be responsible for any damages or inconvenience that may result.
READ THIS BEFORE OPENING PACKAGE: According to certain suggested versions of the Grand Unified Theory, the primary particles constituting this product may decay to nothingness within the next 400 million years.
THIS IS A 100% MATTER PRODUCT: In the unlikely event that this merchandise should contact antimatter in any form, a catastrophic explosion will result.
PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any use of this product, in any manner whatsoever, will increase the amount of disorder in the universe. Although no liability is implied herein, the consumer is warned that this process will lead to the heat death of the universe.
NOTE: The most fundamental particles in this product are held together by a “gluing” force about which little is currently known, and whose adhesive power can therefore not be permanently guaranteed.
ATTENTION: Despite any other listing of product contents found hereon, the consumer is advised that, in actuality, this product consists of 99.9999999% empty space.
NEW GRAND UNIFIED THEORY DISCLAIMER: The manufacturer may technically be entitled to claim that this product is 10-dimensional. However, the consumer is reminded that this confers no legal rights above and beyond those applicable to three-dimensional objects, since the seven new dimensions are “rolled up” into such a small “area” that they cannot be detected.
PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to exist, or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.
COMPONENT EQUIVALENCY NOTICE: The subatomic particles (electrons, protons, etc.) comprising this product are exactly the same in every measurable respect as those used in the products of other manufacturers, and no claim to the contrary may legitimately be expressed or implied.
HEALTH WARNING: Care should be taken when lifting this product, since its mass, and thus its weight, is dependent on its velocity relative to the user.
IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PURCHASERS: The entire physical universe, including this product, may one day collapse back into an infinitesimally small space. Should another universe subsequently re-emerge, the existence of this product in that universe cannot be guaranteed.
_____________________________________________________________
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From: gboy@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 24, 2002 at 1:33:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
g you are insane, you are also mad talented. fuck yeah
and what you say needs to be said. the deal is you say it tens better then anybody i ever heard of. speak it brother, you speak the truth.
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:48:59 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 06:21:31AM -0000], [Curtis Hersch] wrote:
|
| Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
| spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This
is a
| paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
| Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
| real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
| of 2001, get this out.
<… Cut …>
Curtis,
Hey do0d, see you in San Francisco.
Listen, please do not do this. By “this” I mean start dumping lengthy
messages addressed to me into the ibogaine list. I realize this
is
probably my fault for not replying to email in a timely manner.
The
problem is every time I open my mailbox — even with filters throwing
90%
of it into other mailboxes automagically — it’s still like, “holy
fucking
shit. No way. No fucking way mahn…”
And the problem is, when people write one or two line messages that
ask a
question, they usually get a reply. When someone writes me 20 well
written paragraphs; it gets thrown into, “I should write this person
a
thoughtful response” mailbox, and then just scrolls into oblivion
because
I never have the time. I apologize for that, and I know you’re
a positive
person who makes good contributions to things and stuff.
Basically: yeah I know all that. Please chill. That was a piece
of a
manuscript that went to Francis around the time he was finishing
his Opium
book I think, and we were exchanging stuff about the imaginary
organization called TA. Tits and Ass, whoopsie, I meant to say,
Thinking
Anonymous, sort of the anti-12-step drivel group. ‘Cept SMART appears
to
already be that. Anyway Lost Ark was one piece, then there is Pieces
of
Mind, Spirits, Two Primary Colors Having an Argument, and some other
shit.
It has all been reorganized and pulled and the timeline is solid.
It goes
from roughly 1994 and the fall of MindVox, to the very start of
2000, a
few months after I came back from Thailand. Going further back
or
forward, and it is too much text. It will come in at roughly 125K
words
after editing — mine — probably 100K after whomever the editor
is,
finishes slicing n’ dicing it. I was trying to compress all experience
covering ’bout a decade into one book, and there’s just too much
of it,
I’ve got enough for 3-5 books. I just need to hit the finish line
on the
first one.
The main problem is that it’s just a huge amount of work. What
is in Lost
Ark is solid, since it’s written in 1999 after I am more or less
halfway
together, and pulling data from laptop to Sun, to OS/X; but basically
pulling data. 1994-96 is shit splattered all over the place, and
96 –
early ’99 is… I have roughly 800 pages of handwritten notebooks.
Which
are crumpled, have ashes, blood, dirt, coffee stains, splattered
all over
’em literally — not just figuratively. This adds character and
works
wonders to pull me back into the spaces where it was all written,
just in
case the words weren’t enough, but attempting to scan it in results
in
’bout 1600 pages of this:
I’
–Jf~t ~~~f+~
;r ,1
~$ w~ w~nd on qown the +o~~( our shadows t~+~er t~~ ffปF ~p~ts…,
~~d ~eppelin ,
…time spins, as moments and fraQmenrs stream throuqh my fietd
of perception, and I’m back once more in the place tqat’s no longer
here,
p~t
falling from there. Shapes and colors have yet to r~q~in their solid,
ab$oluteness, lines reach out and keep going, nev~r r~~~ly acknowledging
~h~ir
I
boundaries, as rainbow washes spray over the surface 9# monochrome
walls,
burning their light and darkness across a slashed and blurred tapestry
of
perpetual motion.
Qft~~~P Q
f:j,n,t~~f~R~f A~ts, places, t:~,l+R~~’ ~+1;It+ft~g time, fo~fii
s
nfeama Or! , ,!”‘, , ‘ :1’, “!
‘1,.~./f'”~TI;!.: ;’;”\;”:” Ii’ ;,
1 ” : ‘. ‘;i” , , , , \I 1 …~, \ 1, 1
, c –” I;. i
;’ , ! , , ‘ ~,,’ 1
“‘
l
.j’
, .’1\
I
i –
,
That’s a major fucking pain in the ass to sift through, figure out
what to
pull, and for the most part just copy by hand since even the best
OCR
software I have ever found, that will attempt to scan in handwriting
once
“taught” is not managing to do this with what I’ve got.
Doan’ worry, it’s coming.
Patrick
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—–
Version: Hush 2.2 (Java)
Note: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify
wlkEARECABkFAj3gctcSHGdib3lAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEFpIFsKkr4lNNZsAoLbF
1A42Y18GDIGsyv4CnY/Sgz6xAJ98PlyCqmY5P5GU6ONOwYUBAgAemA==
=HOEs
—–END PGP SIGNATURE—–
Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
From: gboy@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 24, 2002 at 1:30:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
no shit
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:29:25 -0800 Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com> wrote:
I dunno. digging for boulders was a drag.
— Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn’t go that far. Finding a vein was much more exciting.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Gamma wrote :
“Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good
vein”
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wlkEARECABkFAj3gciESHGdib3lAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEFpIFsKkr4lNeEgAnjuI
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Weinberg’s review of the Staten Island project,,
Date: November 23, 2002 at 9:14:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Mentions unnamed “current” High Times big.
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:05:51 -0500
To: ibogaine@mindvox.om
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject:
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
http://shadow.mediafilter.org/shadow/S41/S41.IbogaineRev.html
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 8:48:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 06:21:31AM -0000], [Curtis Hersch] wrote:
|
| Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
| spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a
| paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
| Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
| real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
| of 2001, get this out.
<… Cut …>
Curtis,
Hey do0d, see you in San Francisco.
Listen, please do not do this. By “this” I mean start dumping lengthy
messages addressed to me into the ibogaine list. I realize this is
probably my fault for not replying to email in a timely manner. The
problem is every time I open my mailbox — even with filters throwing 90%
of it into other mailboxes automagically — it’s still like, “holy fucking
shit. No way. No fucking way mahn…”
And the problem is, when people write one or two line messages that ask a
question, they usually get a reply. When someone writes me 20 well
written paragraphs; it gets thrown into, “I should write this person a
thoughtful response” mailbox, and then just scrolls into oblivion because
I never have the time. I apologize for that, and I know you’re a positive
person who makes good contributions to things and stuff.
Basically: yeah I know all that. Please chill. That was a piece of a
manuscript that went to Francis around the time he was finishing his Opium
book I think, and we were exchanging stuff about the imaginary
organization called TA. Tits and Ass, whoopsie, I meant to say, Thinking
Anonymous, sort of the anti-12-step drivel group. ‘Cept SMART appears to
already be that. Anyway Lost Ark was one piece, then there is Pieces of
Mind, Spirits, Two Primary Colors Having an Argument, and some other shit.
It has all been reorganized and pulled and the timeline is solid. It goes
from roughly 1994 and the fall of MindVox, to the very start of 2000, a
few months after I came back from Thailand. Going further back or
forward, and it is too much text. It will come in at roughly 125K words
after editing — mine — probably 100K after whomever the editor is,
finishes slicing n’ dicing it. I was trying to compress all experience
covering ’bout a decade into one book, and there’s just too much of it,
I’ve got enough for 3-5 books. I just need to hit the finish line on the
first one.
The main problem is that it’s just a huge amount of work. What is in Lost
Ark is solid, since it’s written in 1999 after I am more or less halfway
together, and pulling data from laptop to Sun, to OS/X; but basically
pulling data. 1994-96 is shit splattered all over the place, and 96 –
early ’99 is… I have roughly 800 pages of handwritten notebooks. Which
are crumpled, have ashes, blood, dirt, coffee stains, splattered all over
’em literally — not just figuratively. This adds character and works
wonders to pull me back into the spaces where it was all written, just in
case the words weren’t enough, but attempting to scan it in results in
’bout 1600 pages of this:
I’
–Jf~t ~~~f+~
;r ,1
~$ w~ w~nd on qown the +o~~( our shadows t~+~er t~~ ffปF ~p~ts…,
~~d ~eppelin ,
…time spins, as moments and fraQmenrs stream throuqh my fietd
of perception, and I’m back once more in the place tqat’s no longer here,
p~t
falling from there. Shapes and colors have yet to r~q~in their solid,
ab$oluteness, lines reach out and keep going, nev~r r~~~ly acknowledging
~h~ir
I
boundaries, as rainbow washes spray over the surface 9# monochrome walls,
burning their light and darkness across a slashed and blurred tapestry of
perpetual motion.
Qft~~~P Q
f:j,n,t~~f~R~f A~ts, places, t:~,l+R~~’ ~+1;It+ft~g time, fo~fii
s
nfeama Or! , ,!”‘, , ‘ :1’, “!
‘1,.~./f'”~TI;!.: ;’;”\;”:” Ii’ ;,
1 ” : ‘. ‘;i” , , , , \I 1 …~, \ 1, 1
, c –” I;. i
;’ , ! , , ‘ ~,,’ 1
“‘
l
.j’
, .’1\
I
i –
,
That’s a major fucking pain in the ass to sift through, figure out what to
pull, and for the most part just copy by hand since even the best OCR
software I have ever found, that will attempt to scan in handwriting once
“taught” is not managing to do this with what I’ve got.
Doan’ worry, it’s coming.
Patrick
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 4:10:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Watching the blood shoot up my rig’s neck just prior
to the bang was ALWAYS ever so much more exciting.
well in that perspective, who could argue?
while in this “vein” of discussion, the taste of a well balanced speedball
hitting the back of my throat and the resulting ebb & flow was The best part of
any given day, in “the life”.
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 10:56:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Watching the blood shoot up my rig’s neck just prior
to the bang was ALWAYS ever so much more exciting.
Thanks for that “picture”, I remember it well… gives
me the shivers now (thankfully).
Brett
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Yoga
Date: November 23, 2002 at 10:50:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nic
You certainly don’t have to preach to me about Yoga in
recovery, it is absolutely wonderful stuff – far
beyond just exercise. I don’t know much about Tai Chi
(startin to sniff at it though) but understand the
benefit is along similar lines. Because I have
physical issues the Yoga is a better fit for me.
This is the sort of thing I would like to
seesacramentacrement site – in the what else to do in
recovery list after doing iboga/ibogaine.
What you get with Yoga
Learn how to be quite, how to quiet the mind, body and
spirit – basically learn how to be at peace.
Meditation – I actually get high (shhhh, the Thought
Control police might be listening) on the stuff.
Basically how to SHUT IT UP and relax. NOTE, those who
have done ibogaine will notice a difference in their
meditation, yoga brings “it” back. Either Yoga or
Ibogaine can for instance get you to very same ether.
Learn how to breath properly – which relaxes the mind
and then the body. It is a very simple relaxation
technique that is highly effective and unfortunately
seldom used. You can often “break” any emotional
crisis/thought pattern by simply breathing in to the
count of 4, hold for 4, out to the count of 4, wait 4
and repeat 3 times – to me it is as effective as
Rescue Remedy.
The simple act of learning something new, learning
anything new and “healthy” for an addict is always a
+++.
“GYM” type yoga classes do not usually get into the
finer points of Yoga and are often far too short to do
much other than a good exercise/stretch.
If you are just starting out in Yoga a few pointers.
If you get one of those 22 year old “kids” as an
instructor (who thinks everyone else has a 22 year old
body) and they do not respect your body, leave. Yoga
done without respect can injure you. The instructor
should also warm you up before doing more intense
postures and include periods of relaxation.
Listen to your body, do not force it, gently nudge it,
let gravity pull you, breath into stretches. IF (like
me) you have had injuries/surgeries, there are spots
that are just going to hurt a bit and take some
convincing, just be a littpersistentrsistant.
Easy does it, sometimes in a couple weeks “THINGS”
start to move around causing some pain, just back off
a bit and continue on, it usually passes in a few more
weeks. This is NOT a signal to stop yoga, if there are
things you can’t do, then don’t do them.
Progress is slow and steady, it takes months to learn
and condition the body/mind. Do not try to compete
with anyone, even yourself, there are good days and
days you will be a little off, it is not a contest.
Maintain posture at all times, you are “doing it” as
long as you maintain posture and get into the pose as
best you can without straining – however far that is
does not matter. What matters is posture, posture,
posture and that you do whatever you can without
breaking posture. It does NOT matter if you can only
go 1/2 inch in the position doing it correctly – that
is far better than going 1 inch (or 10) incorrectly.
Some people should not do certain poses. For instance
I have a neck injury so I don’t do the plow (though I
can) but I will do shoulder-stands or head-stands
without it irritating the neck. What you can and
cannot do you have to find out for yourself, gently.
All movement should be slow, steady, graceful (well,
djerkyr best…), no jurky movements, no bouncing,
nothing is fast. Get into a posture and get out of the
posture, not just end it – it is a fluid thing, in and
out.
Balance, besides the mind yoga gets the body working
in balance, gets the organs moving. It also helps
physical balance. I have an upper spinal cord injury,
when I first started Yoga my balance wadisability(as
in a disablility for sure), now it is better than
before the injury.
Most people CANNOT do yoga by themselves – meaning,
even if you know it, it just comes out better when
there are others to do it with – like in a class or a
group of people in your living room on mats. You also
CANNOT learn posture very well without an instructor –
something that also gets lost in Gym Yoga. Note, I am
a bit of a yoga snob, been taught by some of the best,
private classes, Yogi Hari’s Ashram (Mario Van Peebles
father-in-law – that is whflexibleearned to be so
flexable)…
Now if you are into Yoga, it can also be a wonderful
spiritually enlightening kind of thing with many
different forms and flavors, not just poses/exercises.
I just rented the Bunns of Steel (don’t laugh) Yoga
tape, it is outstanding (the Yogini is amazing, very
easy to watch). It will go through my “tape enhancer”
so I can see the picture more clearly, that copy
protection really fuzzes up the pic…
A very nice Yoga site.
http://www.santosha.com/
Brett
— flash gordan <eyebegrowing@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all
well ive not partaken of the
mysterious plant called iboga nor
been addicted to opiates but looking at my own
experiences in this strange
life i would reccommend to anyone to start yoga or
tai chi as part of an
aftercare package , both improve physical health ,
give a person stronger
willpower to break old patterns and prevent new
destructive ones from
developing , develop greater self awareness , help
in learning to control
the slippery bugger called mind , releive tension
and stress , improve
energy levels , yah di yah di yah could go on but i
fell like i’m preaching
,
take it easy
nic
From: Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:12:42 -0800 (PST)
I’ve been reading this list for about a month now.
And every time I think
I’ve
seen everything it keeps getting weirder. I’ve
reached the stage where I
don’t
know what to think about any of it anymore. A few
weeks past I thought
there
are some exceptions and that is all. Now I don’t
know anymore.
Instead of saying what’s already been said so many
times, let me ask
something
from the people here who are staying clean and have
failed with every
normal
aftercare treatment.
For those of you here, I have the strong impression
that any kind of
aftercare
which is “normal” did more harm then good for you.
Was there anything that
you
feel helped you, any place you went to that had a
good effect on you? I’d
really like to hear, I’ve reached the stage where I
think that any one
person’s road map who is in the “exception”
category is useless to everyone
else.
After reading Art’s post I looked up where Patrick
went to clear his head.
Unless there is something I missed, there are some
promotional sites
advertising Thamkrabok and then there are the
mountain of news stories
which
say something completely different. However you
want to add it up, you are
a
junkie who had days or a week clean and went to
Bangkok, to the middle of a
large scale heroin distribution ring to clear your
head and get off heroin.
I
have to conclude that any specific advice you give
anyone has nothing at
all
to do with what you yourself did. I’m starting to
see there is good reason
for
this. I’m not disrespecting you, I have nothing but
a lot of respect for
you,
but you’re from another planet.
What did other people who have had success do? I
keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed
here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the
people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative
after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this
list would recommend to
me?
Thank you
-s
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 9:36:03 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah,
I can honestly say that having a bowel movement was never, ever even once exciting, even strung out. Painful once or twice, but never exciting. Watching the blood shoot up my rig’s neck just prior to the bang was ALWAYS ever so much more exciting.
Why oh why do scatological discussions keep cropping up here?;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
I wouldn’t go that far. Finding a vein was much more exciting.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Gamma wrote :
>”Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good vein”
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
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>
From: “flash gordan” <eyebegrowing@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 23, 2002 at 6:08:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all
well ive not partaken of the mysterious plant called iboga nor been addicted to opiates but looking at my own experiences in this strange life i would reccommend to anyone to start yoga or tai chi as part of an aftercare package , both improve physical health , give a person stronger willpower to break old patterns and prevent new destructive ones from developing , develop greater self awareness , help in learning to control the slippery bugger called mind , releive tension and stress , improve energy levels , yah di yah di yah could go on but i fell like i’m preaching ,
take it easy
nic
From: Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:12:42 -0800 (PST)
I’ve been reading this list for about a month now. And every time I think I’ve
seen everything it keeps getting weirder. I’ve reached the stage where I don’t
know what to think about any of it anymore. A few weeks past I thought there
are some exceptions and that is all. Now I don’t know anymore.
Instead of saying what’s already been said so many times, let me ask something
from the people here who are staying clean and have failed with every normal
aftercare treatment.
For those of you here, I have the strong impression that any kind of aftercare
which is “normal” did more harm then good for you. Was there anything that you
feel helped you, any place you went to that had a good effect on you? I’d
really like to hear, I’ve reached the stage where I think that any one
person’s road map who is in the “exception” category is useless to everyone
else.
After reading Art’s post I looked up where Patrick went to clear his head.
Unless there is something I missed, there are some promotional sites
advertising Thamkrabok and then there are the mountain of news stories which
say something completely different. However you want to add it up, you are a
junkie who had days or a week clean and went to Bangkok, to the middle of a
large scale heroin distribution ring to clear your head and get off heroin. I
have to conclude that any specific advice you give anyone has nothing at all
to do with what you yourself did. I’m starting to see there is good reason for
this. I’m not disrespecting you, I have nothing but a lot of respect for you,
but you’re from another planet.
What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine “treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend to me?
Thank you
-s
__________________________________________________
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 4:29:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I dunno. digging for boulders was a drag.
— Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn’t go that far. Finding a vein was much more exciting.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Gamma wrote :
“Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good vein”
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 2:18:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dogg I’ve never said anything to you before because I thought you were
either totally crazy or really smart all you ever post are
incomprehensible physics papers so I can’t tell. The fact that I just
now realize that more then half of everything I ever take which is not
pot, may be coming from your basement or UFO or for all I know military
hanger in middle america. Just scared the crap out of me.
.:vector:.
— Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com> wrote:
I’ll buy it and I only read reference books and PKD and some few
exceptions. You write excellently. I am willing to make exception.
Here are some sites that have been interesting a much longer then 15
minutes. All are good sources.
Open MindVox, I will have much input on synthesis and physics
section.
http://www.aitests.com/
http://www.laboratorydevices.com/index.cfm
http://solvdb.ncms.org/SOLV01.htm
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/
http://www.chem.com/
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/
http://balances.com/
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From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 2:03:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’ll buy it and I only read reference books and PKD and some few exceptions. You write excellently. I am willing to make exception.
Here are some sites that have been interesting a much longer then 15 minutes. All are good sources.
Open MindVox, I will have much input on synthesis and physics section.
http://www.aitests.com/
http://www.laboratorydevices.com/index.cfm
http://solvdb.ncms.org/SOLV01.htm
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/
http://www.chem.com/
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/
http://balances.com/
— Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah but does it have a lot of dirt on people? 🙂
.:vector:.
Sites that have been interesting for the last 15 minutes. They are all
halfway decent and all rank somewhere below 2 million with me and
probably 2 other people having ever read them. I feel it my duty that
at least 5 people who are bored click the links.
http://home.thedrugsindex.org/
http://www.ambitiousaddict.com/
http://www.consciousdreams.nl/
http://www.intrepidtrips.com/
http://www.leary.com/
The last one is posted with my apology to Drew Ross who likes to post
really long rants about how 5 hash dealers and 20 hanger ons ruined his
site and took credit for it. Don’t pout your name is still in the
Webbies 50 times ina row 🙂
— Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a
paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
of 2001, get this out.
What I’m reading is hardcopy “The Lost Ark of the Covenant is
Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head” subtitle “The Heroin
and Hallucinogens World Tour: from Smack to Samadhi” Bro, this is
185 pages. You have a Guns N Roses lyrcis “I’ve seen everything
imaginable pass before these eyes, I’ve had everything that’s
tangible, honey you’d be surprised” you have a Shakespeare quote,
the “Life is a tale told by a idiot” piece. Your agent’s name is
on it, you are with ICM, what are you doing??? You are with the
biggest talent agency in the world bro. HAND IN A FINAL
MANUSCRIPT! This is near done, you are done. This is the weirdest
fusion of Burroughs and McKenna I have ever seen, I thought people
were ragging you but it’s a compliment, you are what would happen
if someone pushed Wililam Burroughs into a pool of LSD and threw
in some ibogaine. This is brilliant and ill.
The entheogens crowd will buy this, the hardcore junkie crowd will
steal this and the recovery people will buy it just to be aware of
why they hate you. You are brutal to the 12 step shit and
addiction treatment bro and you are funny as shit while doing it.
This is amazing work. This has ibogaine all over it too.
Finish it, or we’re going to start sending the unfinished version
to publishers 😉
Peace out and get this out, you are beyond good brother, speak the
truth.
I will for sure be at the San Francisco conference to say all this
in person bro! 🙂
Curtis
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 1:43:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hella dirt. But no names attached to it. The only people named that I recognized are positive. Some from this list. The only exception is Deborah Mash who is close to walking on water in his book. Everyone else gets a shotgun blast to the face 😉
I often wondered why Tim Leary’s site was last updated in 1999. Now I know 😉 Good show Drew. He’s not cutting any checks from beyond the grave is he? 😉
Peace out,
Curtis
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Vector Vector wrote :
Yeah but does it have a lot of dirt on people? 🙂
.:vector:.
Sites that have been interesting for the last 15 minutes. They are all
halfway decent and all rank somewhere below 2 million with me and
probably 2 other people having ever read them. I feel it my duty that
at least 5 people who are bored click the links.
http://home.thedrugsindex.org/
http://www.ambitiousaddict.com/
http://www.consciousdreams.nl/
http://www.intrepidtrips.com/
http://www.leary.com/
The last one is posted with my apology to Drew Ross who likes to post
really long rants about how 5 hash dealers and 20 hanger ons ruined his
site and took credit for it. Don’t pout your name is still in the
Webbies 50 times ina row 🙂
— Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
>
> Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
> spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a
> paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
> Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
> real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
> of 2001, get this out.
>
> What I’m reading is hardcopy “The Lost Ark of the Covenant is
> Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head” subtitle “The Heroin
> and Hallucinogens World Tour: from Smack to Samadhi” Bro, this is
> 185 pages. You have a Guns N Roses lyrcis “I’ve seen everything
> imaginable pass before these eyes, I’ve had everything that’s
> tangible, honey you’d be surprised” you have a Shakespeare quote,
> the “Life is a tale told by a idiot” piece. Your agent’s name is
> on it, you are with ICM, what are you doing??? You are with the
> biggest talent agency in the world bro. HAND IN A FINAL
> MANUSCRIPT! This is near done, you are done. This is the weirdest
> fusion of Burroughs and McKenna I have ever seen, I thought people
> were ragging you but it’s a compliment, you are what would happen
> if someone pushed Wililam Burroughs into a pool of LSD and threw
> in some ibogaine. This is brilliant and ill.
>
> The entheogens crowd will buy this, the hardcore junkie crowd will
> steal this and the recovery people will buy it just to be aware of
> why they hate you. You are brutal to the 12 step shit and
> addiction treatment bro and you are funny as shit while doing it.
> This is amazing work. This has ibogaine all over it too.
>
> Finish it, or we’re going to start sending the unfinished version
> to publishers 😉
>
> Peace out and get this out, you are beyond good brother, speak the
> truth.
> I will for sure be at the San Francisco conference to say all this
> in person bro! 🙂
> Curtis
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 1:36:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah but does it have a lot of dirt on people? 🙂
.:vector:.
Sites that have been interesting for the last 15 minutes. They are all
halfway decent and all rank somewhere below 2 million with me and
probably 2 other people having ever read them. I feel it my duty that
at least 5 people who are bored click the links.
http://home.thedrugsindex.org/
http://www.ambitiousaddict.com/
http://www.consciousdreams.nl/
http://www.intrepidtrips.com/
http://www.leary.com/
The last one is posted with my apology to Drew Ross who likes to post
really long rants about how 5 hash dealers and 20 hanger ons ruined his
site and took credit for it. Don’t pout your name is still in the
Webbies 50 times ina row 🙂
— Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have
spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a
paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is
Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get
real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end
of 2001, get this out.
What I’m reading is hardcopy “The Lost Ark of the Covenant is
Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head” subtitle “The Heroin
and Hallucinogens World Tour: from Smack to Samadhi” Bro, this is
185 pages. You have a Guns N Roses lyrcis “I’ve seen everything
imaginable pass before these eyes, I’ve had everything that’s
tangible, honey you’d be surprised” you have a Shakespeare quote,
the “Life is a tale told by a idiot” piece. Your agent’s name is
on it, you are with ICM, what are you doing??? You are with the
biggest talent agency in the world bro. HAND IN A FINAL
MANUSCRIPT! This is near done, you are done. This is the weirdest
fusion of Burroughs and McKenna I have ever seen, I thought people
were ragging you but it’s a compliment, you are what would happen
if someone pushed Wililam Burroughs into a pool of LSD and threw
in some ibogaine. This is brilliant and ill.
The entheogens crowd will buy this, the hardcore junkie crowd will
steal this and the recovery people will buy it just to be aware of
why they hate you. You are brutal to the 12 step shit and
addiction treatment bro and you are funny as shit while doing it.
This is amazing work. This has ibogaine all over it too.
Finish it, or we’re going to start sending the unfinished version
to publishers 😉
Peace out and get this out, you are beyond good brother, speak the
truth.
I will for sure be at the San Francisco conference to say all this
in person bro! 🙂
Curtis
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] earth to patric
Date: November 23, 2002 at 1:21:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick you never read your mail or never reply to it, bro I have spent the last 6 hours reading your Lost Ark manuscript. This is a paper copy that I got from Francis, it is dated Dec 2001. It is Dec 2002, I thought you were dysfunctional and all bro but get real. This is the same deal as Mindvox. You were nearly done end of 2001, get this out.
What I’m reading is hardcopy “The Lost Ark of the Covenant is Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head” subtitle “The Heroin and Hallucinogens World Tour: from Smack to Samadhi” Bro, this is 185 pages. You have a Guns N Roses lyrcis “I’ve seen everything imaginable pass before these eyes, I’ve had everything that’s tangible, honey you’d be surprised” you have a Shakespeare quote, the “Life is a tale told by a idiot” piece. Your agent’s name is on it, you are with ICM, what are you doing??? You are with the biggest talent agency in the world bro. HAND IN A FINAL MANUSCRIPT! This is near done, you are done. This is the weirdest fusion of Burroughs and McKenna I have ever seen, I thought people were ragging you but it’s a compliment, you are what would happen if someone pushed Wililam Burroughs into a pool of LSD and threw in some ibogaine. This is brilliant and ill.
The entheogens crowd will buy this, the hardcore junkie crowd will steal this and the recovery people will buy it just to be aware of why they hate you. You are brutal to the 12 step shit and addiction treatment bro and you are funny as shit while doing it. This is amazing work. This has ibogaine all over it too.
Finish it, or we’re going to start sending the unfinished version to publishers 😉
Peace out and get this out, you are beyond good brother, speak the truth.
I will for sure be at the San Francisco conference to say all this in person bro! 🙂
Curtis
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 23, 2002 at 1:18:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I wouldn’t go that far. Finding a vein was much more exciting.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 Gamma wrote :
“Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good vein”
__________________________________________________
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Junkie quote of the day
Date: November 22, 2002 at 8:23:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“Having a bowel movement is almost as exciting as finding a good vein”
__________________________________________________
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) Fw: Practical Logistics Re: Light Bulbs
Date: November 22, 2002 at 5:14:36 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is pretty funny, so in the interest of fun, I pass it on.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: CERJ@igc.org
To: CERJ@igc.org
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: Practical Logistics Re: Light Bulbs
Reading this might help one appreciate the CERJ list more. Now believe it
or not, one of the Quaker lists did actually field an inquiry recently about
how to change light bulbs! The energy-saving variety, of course! — John
Wilmerding
Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light
bulb?
A: 1,331:
1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb
has been changed
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently.
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.
53 to flame the spell checkers
156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb
discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list.
41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this
email exchange to alt.lite.bulb
203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped.
111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are all use light
bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list.
306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy
the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
technique, and what brands are faulty.
27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs
14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected
URLs.
3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this
list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list.
33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers
and footers, and then add “Me Too.”
12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot
handle the light bulb controversy.
19 to quote the “Me Too’s” to say, “Me Three.”
4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it
here.
143 votes for alt.lite.bulb.
==================================
CERJ@igc.org wilmerding@earthlink.net
——————————————-
John Wilmerding, Convener and List Manager
Coalition for Equity-Restorative Justice (CERJ)
1 Chestnut Hill, Brattleboro, VT, ZIP: 05301-6073
Phone: 1-802-254-2826 | 1-802-380-0664 (cellular)
CERJ was founded in New York in May, 1997.
——————————————-
“Work together to reinvent justice using methods
that are fair; that conserve, restore, and even
create harmony, equity and good will in society.”
——————————————-
To join (or leave) the CERJ email list, kindly send
me an email message at wilmerding@earthlink.net
or at cerj@igc.org. I’ll need your first & last name,
your email address, and your state, province or
country of residence. Thank you! — John W.
==================================
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [drugwar] ONDCP head makes fool of himself in front of Vancouver Board of Trade
Date: November 22, 2002 at 9:35:27 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks for posting this Tim, this is really great stuff. Most of the Canadian press coverage, as I note in this morning’s link at drugwar.com, is not the typical, lap-dog style of coverage the prohibitionists have grown far too accustomed to here in the US.
Besides, Emory is genuinely funny in his intro piece, and the interview with the hash smoker in the cafe at the end of the pot-tv segment is classic.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Tim Meehan
To: cmap@mapinc.org ; mapster@coollist.com ; maptalk@mapinc.org ; drctalk@drcnet.org ; drugwar@mindvox.com
Cc: John_P._Walters@ondcp.eop.gov
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:52 PM
Subject: [drugwar] ONDCP head makes fool of himself in front of Vancouver Board of Trade
***PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY***
I say we should give Mr. Walters an education in logic and rhetoric
(hint: argument from authority does not convince people, Johnny, you
come of sounding like the bully you think you are) as well as
introducing ourselves. His email is John_P._Walters@ondcp.eop.gov, and
I encourage to make sure that the next time this happens — and
believe me, it will — he will have heard of us.
In the last two years, for the first time, we had more teenagers
seeking treatment for marijuana dependency than for alcohol, which
never used to be the case because of the greater availability of
alcohol–
(You’re lying! You’re lying! *unintelligible[1]*)
You’re entitled to your own opinion–
(Yes!)
You’re entitled to do whatever you want, speak whenever you want, but
I don’t think you’re entitled to you own facts.
(*You* don’t have them.)
Shouting people down…shouting people down doesn’t make what you say
true.
(It doesn’t make what *you* say true.)
Well, let me just say one thing about that. I’m a public official. I
am subject to scrutiny of the press, of the congress, of officials at
various levels. What I say, what I write, what I’m responsible for can
be questioned or debated. I never heard of you.
— CBC News, Canada Now, “The Politics of Prohibition” November 20,
2002
[1] If you see the report
(http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-1640.html) you can
hear some applause — likely coming from prohibitionist troublemakers
Toby Hinton and Al Arsenault — trying to drown out what the BCMP
table was saying. (Their words in brackets.)
—
“I am sitting here in the smallest room in my house, with your
letter of criticism before me. Soon, it will be behind me.”
–Max Reger
<]=———————————————————————–=[>
[ Moderated by: Preston Peet | http://www.drugwar.com | Andria E-Mordaunt ]
| -=/[ To Subscribe: drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com ]/=- |
| To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com |
[ DrugWar List in Digest Format: drugwar-digest-subscribe@mindvox.com ]
<]=———————————————————————–=[>
From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 22, 2002 at 1:21:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And another list, to isolate people who write one sentence and quote 2000 lines of someone else’s messages. Twice in a row no less.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:15:56 -0800 “R. B. Gordon” <rblgordon@yahoo.com> wrote:
Maybe we need a list for those of us who are dealing
with having our children on drugs and how to cope.
RBL
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: “R. B. Gordon” <rblgordon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 22, 2002 at 1:15:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Maybe we need a list for those of us who are dealing
with having our children on drugs and how to cope.
RBL
— “jon r. ludlam” <seraphina@compuserve.com> wrote:
Dear Art ( arthernandez1999@yahoo.com),
I have read and reread your post to Patrick. I am
VERY NEW on this web
site, and certainly claim NO EXPERTISE in the
matters, however I have
actively lurked on the predecessor board for 4-5
years. My knowledge was
limited to what I have read on this and other Web
Sites pertaining to this
form of treatment, until 2 weeks ago. In the
previous week I had been
through the low point of my Son’s ten year
addiction. He jumped out a
window 2 1/2 stories above ground level, had two
Grand Mal Seizures,
numerous Petit Mal seizures, drove me down
Interstate 95 at 110 MPH at
night in the driving rain and announced that he was
going to kill both of
us, (I had to remove the keys three times from the
ignition, but reinserted
them each time when it became evident that he had no
steering and very
limited brakes.) When I asked if he had been taking
his medicines he took a
handful of his antidepressant and swallowed them. I
could go on, but I
think you get the picture. I was ABSOLUTELY certain
that if something was
not done Quickly, I would loose him, as he
repeatedly told me he wanted to
die and intended to accomplish same.
I do not cut and paste in replys as the
redundancy seems to cloud
the response, I however shall attempt to reply to
the questions that I can
now answer.
Understand that being of exceptional
intelligence is a liability in
life, as much as an asset. (That is another
subject.)
I had spoken to my Son about Ibogaine many times and
he rejected the idea
summarily. When a friend of his mentioned it he
seemed responsive initially
and then NIXED the idea, saying that he was opposed
to mind altering drugs.
He was using 12-20 bags of heroin a day and was on
130 MG of methadone
daily, cocaine, Benzos, and had, in the past, used
large quantitys of LSD.
The 130 MG of methadone a day is enough to preclude
him from most if not
all detox/rehab programs in this country. He has
been to 9 of them plus we
have done some home detoxes as well. He is diagnosed
as Bi-Polar,
Personality Disorder Antisocial and NOS, Panic
Disorder,
Obsesive/Compulsive and more from three different
Institutions, as well as
two additional court ordered evaluations.
Without getting into who did what, two pair
of handcuffs were
acquired and utilized, withdrawal set in and he
asked for the treatment, as
he was told that it would ameliorate the withdrawal
symptoms. He got the
treatment according to protocall and is NOT USING
illicit drugs, and claims
that he suffered NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS, says his
drug use is behind him
and is mad as hell at me.
I have never used illicit substances, my son
took his first college
classes when he was 10 years old at UVA Summer
session in Charlottsville
Va, and got nothing less than an A for a grade. The
State of Virginia
solicited and paid for this as part of an
experiment. I was opposed to
this, but my wife was not, and she accepted when it
was offered the second
time while I was on a trip, working away from home.
There are many compassionate people on this
Board, and they have
lived it instead of observed it, so I am just one
voice in the wilderness,
but I KNOW IT WORKS, and nothing in the past has. He
has used the first day
out of programs, and out of jail, hell, he has been
caught using in
programs. I have been told that this treatment
RESETS THE BRAIN and I
believe it.
IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are
protocalls for this
treatment that include EKG, and liver function, they
MUST be followed. Test
Dosing for tolerance is also IMPERATIVE. Get a Guide
to get through this.
This is not a walk in the park for the patient nor
the guide. My
observation is that there is no risk of addiction to
this treatment as it
is REVULSIVE as well as EFFECTIVE. I.E some
vomiting, numerous bowl
function misfires, a few days of musical bathrooms,
beds, bedrooms, stairs,
and sofas. There is a necessity for followthrough
after treatment. If
restraint is necessary to save your Son, use it,
however once the treatment
starts be as compassionate as can be and then some.
You do not want him so
angry that he will try to prove to you that the
treatment will not work,
and compassion helps people find the LIGHT I had to
decide if I was
concerned for my own consequences, or saving my sons
life, I chose the
latter with trepidation. HAVE PLENTY OF HELP AND
MAKE SURE THAT NO ONE
AROUND CAN MAKE ANY OUTSIDE CALLS (911) LIKE
GIRLFRIENDS of his. Do NOT
Quit on your Son, Jail only gives you a rest, it
does not heal your Son.
3X3=9X20=180
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
Get a Guide to get through this
Get a Guide to get through this
Get a Guide to get through this.
He’s going to make it !!!
He’s going to make it !!!
He’s going to make it !!!
Respectfully Yours,
John Seraphina
__________________________________________________
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From: “R. B. Gordon” <rblgordon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 22, 2002 at 1:14:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I want to say amen to all that, you are not alone.
RBL
— Art Hernandez <arthernandez1999@yahoo.com> wrote:
Patrick, I’ve too sent you mail at least twice and
never receive any replies. It wasn’t sent to kiss up
to you or waste your time, I understand you’re very
busy but please reply to me, I will send one more
email after this to the list.
I have a BS in psychology (please no jokes and then
went to a MS in engineering and what I find
fascinating about you isn’t so much that you’re a
talented person, but that you somehow move across
disciplines and move from left brain oriented to
right
brain oriented??? Do you control that or does that
just happen in some way? That isn’t manic
depression,
which I understand you are too. I’ve met many people
who are gifted at science, writing, speaking, etc
but
I’ve never met anyone who moves back and forth
through
all that, you’re not writing technical papers,
you’re
writing prose that somehow mixes all of that and
makes
it connect to people. That’s remarkable. I can read
you and get the same effect as taking LSD.
It took me a long time before I wrote you even once
because you’re someone I don’t know how to approach.
I
know you have a very colorful past and have applied
your mind in ways that have upset a lot of people.
But
in reading this list for months I’ve never seen you
attack anyone, I think you’re a really good person,
please take a little time to just reply to me.
I have a son, he’s 31 years old now. He finished
high
school at 15, he received his BS at 20, he is not
like
you but he is very smart. What I have now and have
had
for almost 5 years is someone who has to be told
that
he smells and needs to take a shower and change his
clothes. He does nothing but more heroin. I am
watching running sores on his arms get bigger and he
doesn’t stop. I don’t know what to do anymore, he
has
been to detox so many times, he has been to
treatment,
he always leaves treatment, I have taken him to
psychiatrists, counselors, everything. Nothing
works.
I don’t know how to help him anymore, looking at him
now you would never believe what he was 5 years ago.
I have noticed that many on this list have high
regard
for entheogenic drugs, but I don’t know how or if
that
would help because I don’t understand how he can
take
LSD, then do crack and heroin all in the same day. I
have done LSD and have great respect and thanks, but
he is not like that.
What do I do with him? I will send him somewhere to
do
ibogaine but then what do I do with him? I’ve read
most of what you’re written about addiction and you
say almost the same things that he says, that it’s a
bad joke run my idiots. The problem is I don’t know
where to find anyone as smart as he is, or how to
help
him. The difference is you made it, he’s not going
to
make it. The best I can hope for right now is that
he’ll go to jail for a little while and that will
slow
down the phone call that my son is dead somewhere. I
keep waiting for that.
How do I help him?
I will attend the Seattle conference and would love
to
hear you speak, please I will pay for your time if
you
will talk with my son, or can do anything to help
him.
I don’t know what to do anymore and no matter who I
send him to he tells me they are stupid and they
tell
me that he is beyond therapy and don’t know what to
do
with him so send him to someone else.
I believe that conventional treatment will not work
for some people, but where do I send him for
unconventional treatment after ibogaine? I’ve even
read about where you went, but I don’t understand
that
either. Thamkrabok appears in every newspaper
listing
as being a temple that is a front for one of the
largest heroin smuggling operations by the tribe
people in Thailand and reading the latest reports
from
the Bangkok post the army and the drug smugglers
have
blown up parts of it and are vacating 30,000 people
from the area. Whatever it was, it isn’t there
anymore.
This is like saying you went to a crackhouse to
clear
your head after doing ibogaine. I don’t understand
how
that could have worked for you. Which is where I
started, I don’t understand how you do what you’ve
done, I don’t understand how to help my son and I
can’t find anyone else who does either.
Please reply to my email.
AH
— Alison Senepart <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
Poor rat.. I can relate to that whole thing. I
havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for
a
while now. Must admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about. I can stay clean for months at a time but
every so often give in to
the temptation and then have to try and get back
to
reality, although it was
so good at the time. Am pretty constant on 10mgs
methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and
hopefully I will be able to
drop that again in the near future. My partner is
on 85mgs a day and is not
interested at all in dropping his dose down.
Guess
different things work
for different people and everyone has to figure
out
their own solution.??
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body
weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox
Hi, I found this through reading the addiction
series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t
focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the
best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t
reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would
please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does
it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read
some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all
the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes
but
i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use
heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try
to
send email but its never replied to :-((
laurie
<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com
Yo, that wasn’t me. That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I
Addiction?
Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful,
mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and
operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.
But unstable and FLYING out of everything.
Or was that my universal remote…
The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.
People create theories in an attempt to
understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who
lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the
events
in question.
Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is
awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it
destroys
things. I will never do fire again! In fact I
will
gather together groups of other people who have
all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire
is
awful, to make myself feel better.
Yeah, well, okay. If that works for you,
fabulous.
But ya know what? It’s not the “correct”
solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally
wrong
–
or more specifically, incomplete. Because when
you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from
death.
And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively
using
drugs… it’s not all that different from the
one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives. Most people are not all
that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most
of
the
time. The only thing that separates you from
them,
is
you have partially learned something they don’t
know
about. If you’re feeling like shit, or even if
you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high –
you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or
that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to
the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but
somehow
totally different.
Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.
What all this means is: congratulations, you’re
human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek
altered
states of consciousness. Sex, drugs, rock n’
roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles
until
they get dizzy. It’s all the same thing.
If you have the specific goal of moving away from
drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances,
the
drugs in question are no longer working for
you,
or
the consequences of continued use — in current
society — are too high a price to pay. I can
offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.
To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related
systems;
psychology, biology and neurology. We can for
example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
addiction — upon exposure to a particular
molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.
Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…? Did the rat go to rodent therapy
and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into
its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to
a
higher power of its understanding? Uhm…
Probably
not. The only higher power it has come into
contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be
found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.
However, this is the part where it all spins in
the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a
higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it
very
little time to arrive at the understanding,
hmmm,
I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with
sharp
objects. The only thing I have to look forward
to
is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw
me
in
the garbage. Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t
I
hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not
like
things could possibly get any worse.>>
__________________________________________________
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From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 9:18:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Vector,
I was really just joshing with you. ALthough I could use a secretary. hmmm…
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:44:33 -0800 (PST)
I’m not your secretery. Why don’t you save out your msg and repost it
yourself every time somebody asks that question every 2 weeks. I save
out the msgs I think are funny or I like to read, I’m not the list
mainetenence person.
Someone should just write a FAQ of the most frequenty asked questions
and answers on this list and add it to the list info, which would take
a hour at most. If patrick doesn’t have the time then there at least 20
people here who post huge many paragraph articulate msgs every week and
between some of them and patrick I’m sure it’d get done. Because alot
of it is repetitive and this is one of the highest traffic lists I am
on.
.:vector:.
— Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also there are meetings on-line and if you simply learn the
> philosophies you
> will be headed in the right direction. There is a lot more to SMART
> than
> what Ive mentioned here.
>
> Vector, can you save this and reprint it for me next time someone
> asks a
> similar question.
>
> Is ibogaine a proper noun? Should I spell it with a capitol I?
>
> Randy Hencken
__________________________________________________
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 7:44:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m not your secretery. Why don’t you save out your msg and repost it
yourself every time somebody asks that question every 2 weeks. I save
out the msgs I think are funny or I like to read, I’m not the list
mainetenence person.
Someone should just write a FAQ of the most frequenty asked questions
and answers on this list and add it to the list info, which would take
a hour at most. If patrick doesn’t have the time then there at least 20
people here who post huge many paragraph articulate msgs every week and
between some of them and patrick I’m sure it’d get done. Because alot
of it is repetitive and this is one of the highest traffic lists I am
on.
.:vector:.
— Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
Also there are meetings on-line and if you simply learn the
philosophies you
will be headed in the right direction. There is a lot more to SMART
than
what Ive mentioned here.
Vector, can you save this and reprint it for me next time someone
asks a
similar question.
Is ibogaine a proper noun? Should I spell it with a capitol I?
Randy Hencken
__________________________________________________
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From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 3:48:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine “treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend to me?
Ill chime in here, although I am starting to feel like some kind of SMART recovery bible thumper, just kidding (check out their web site at www.smartrecovery.org or burn in oops, bible thumping). I have been clean off methadone, heroin and cocaine for almost 1.5 years. After I did the ibogaine I attended Smart meetings once a week for about three months. I attended a few more meetings over the next couple months, and then I graduated from the program. I had made a change in my life and the urges to use dope had subsided. Recently I attended a smart recovery coordinators conference and started a meeting here in San Diego on Tuesday nights. I volunteer my time there because I like SMART and I like helping people.
Most people who quit addictive behaviors simply quit, without going to rehabs and 12-step meetings. SMART, essentially, is a guideline teaching skills that those other people discovered on their own. As opposed to most treatments, we do not try to force square pegs through circular holes. SMART is an acronym for Self Management And Recovery Training. This means it is a program about taking care of you. We do not have sponsors, we realize that only you are responsible for you. We dont have arbitrary steps for you to follow. We do have a 4 point program: 1) Finding and maintaining the motivation to change your addictive behavior. 2) Learning how to cope with urges and cravings. 3) Problem solving and lastly 4) life style balance / lifestyle change.
As you may have noticed I refer to addiction as addictive behavior and not as a disease. Smart recovery doesnt buy into the disease theory. We view addiction as a maladaptive behavior. You probably started using your substance because it was fun or benefited you in some positive way; now youre stuck with a bad habit. You learned your addiction and you can unlearn it. SMART is about empowerment not powerlessness.
We discourage labeling yourself as an addict/alcoholic. We believe that you will follow your thoughts or you will act the way you think about yourself. If you label yourself then you are setting yourself up for failure or relapse.
We dont count days, because we know how damaging it can be to lose all those days when you have a lapse. Instead if you lapse come to a meeting and talk about it and hopefully you will lapse less frequently. It is better to have had two lapses in two years then to be back at step one because of a little lapse.
SMART is based on rational thought and scientific study. The program is willing to change as science changes. SMART is a non-profit organization, so no one is trying to get rich off of your difficulties.
Some of the tools we work with in SMART are: rational emotive behavioral therapy (REBT), cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), destructive self talk awareness and refusal method (DISARM, which is our version of addictive voice recognition technique (AVRT) which was coined and is owned by Rational Recovery), disputing irrational beliefs (DIBs) and there are many more. We try to do actual work at a meeting.
We dont sit around being gloomy and telling war stories. We dont linger in the past. SMART is about creating a better future.
If there arent meetings near you, start one. It doesnt take a professional. All you need to do is educate yourself about the philosophies of SMART. You can find these ideas in their manual, on the web and in their recommended readings. We need more SMART meetings. We need to create a voice as loud as the twelve steppers voice. People in the throws of addiction dont know that we exist. They are busy learning harmful dogma that keeps them wrapped up in their addiction. If you have time and you are tired of the twelve steps get involved in SMART. Help out your neighbors.
Also there are meetings on-line and if you simply learn the philosophies you will be headed in the right direction. There is a lot more to SMART than what Ive mentioned here.
Vector, can you save this and reprint it for me next time someone asks a similar question.
Is ibogaine a proper noun? Should I spell it with a capitol I?
Randy Hencken
_________________________________________________________________
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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Order Iboga from Indra, Marco & Ethnogarden
Date: November 21, 2002 at 2:28:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes, it does work fine now.
By the way, I am getting 50 grams of Indra Extract from Indra.dk, I am
presuming no one has had any problems ordering, also am going to get
Ibogaine Hydrochloride also from Marco. Also reordered 50 grams of
ethnogarden also. Am interested in working with the three known formats of
iboga to see how patients respond to each.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Even with calendar spelled correctly, there is no
link.
http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Works just fine for me
Brett
By the way, our new Iboga Therapy House is doing
well, all our patients are
transformed!
Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
In a message dated 11/21/02 1:14:37 AM,
stevevalman@yahoo.com writes:
What did other people who have had success do? I
keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed
here, is there anyone
here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only
the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any
alternative after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on
this list would recommend
to me?
Simply throw yourself into the ibogaine movement
to help make ibogaine
available. Petition your government, protest,
write letters and hope that
a
lot of people are also getting treated who can
join you in your work.
Anything that you can do that you believe in will
keep you in better
condition after ibogaine treatment than having
nothing to do. My
perception
is that the difference in ibogaine treatment is
ibogaine. No one has come
up
with anything significantly different on the
aftercare side that is more
or
less beneficial to some than to others. So, if
nothing else works, take
ibogaine and then go looking for something to do.
Regardless of what it
is.
Excluding shooting dope if that is what you want
to avoid.
Howard
www.ibogaine.org/calander.html
Howard
__________________________________________________
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:29:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/21/02 1:17:55 PM, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:
The calendar works fine. It’s the NYC Intl conference link (7th/8th)
that doesn’t work. This is because nothing has been created for those
links. Howard is awaiting finalization of contracts.
It is going up bit by bit.
www.ibogaine.org/calendar.html
just click on the International conference set for NYC feb 7/8 (hopefully).
I will place some additions when I return from the Ibogaine Working Group
meeting late this evening.
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:26:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/21/02 12:45:43 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:
Hi mark,
Thanks for pointing out my spelling error for the url.
Goto: www.ibogaine.org/calendar.html
It works for me. Maybe it is sort of like ibogaine and works for some people
sometime. Sometimes when I cut and past urls “%20” gets inserted into the
address.
Howard
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:16:54 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The calendar works fine. It’s the NYC Intl conference link (7th/8th)
that doesn’t work. This is because nothing has been created for those
links. Howard is awaiting finalization of contracts.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:03:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Even with calendar spelled correctly, there is no
link.
http://ibogaine.org/calendar.html
Works just fine for me
Brett
By the way, our new Iboga Therapy House is doing
well, all our patients are
transformed!
Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
In a message dated 11/21/02 1:14:37 AM,
stevevalman@yahoo.com writes:
What did other people who have had success do? I
keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed
here, is there anyone
here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only
the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any
alternative after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on
this list would recommend
to me?
Simply throw yourself into the ibogaine movement
to help make ibogaine
available. Petition your government, protest,
write letters and hope that
a
lot of people are also getting treated who can
join you in your work.
Anything that you can do that you believe in will
keep you in better
condition after ibogaine treatment than having
nothing to do. My
perception
is that the difference in ibogaine treatment is
ibogaine. No one has come
up
with anything significantly different on the
aftercare side that is more
or
less beneficial to some than to others. So, if
nothing else works, take
ibogaine and then go looking for something to do.
Regardless of what it
is.
Excluding shooting dope if that is what you want
to avoid.
Howard
www.ibogaine.org/calander.html
Howard
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 12:27:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Howard, that url is not functional (ibogaine.org/calender.html)
Even with calendar spelled correctly, there is no link.
By the way, our new Iboga Therapy House is doing well, all our patients are
transformed!
Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
In a message dated 11/21/02 1:14:37 AM, stevevalman@yahoo.com writes:
What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone
here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine
“treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend
to me?
Simply throw yourself into the ibogaine movement to help make ibogaine
available. Petition your government, protest, write letters and hope that
a
lot of people are also getting treated who can join you in your work.
Anything that you can do that you believe in will keep you in better
condition after ibogaine treatment than having nothing to do. My
perception
is that the difference in ibogaine treatment is ibogaine. No one has come
up
with anything significantly different on the aftercare side that is more
or
less beneficial to some than to others. So, if nothing else works, take
ibogaine and then go looking for something to do. Regardless of what it
is.
Excluding shooting dope if that is what you want to avoid.
Howard
www.ibogaine.org/calander.html
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 10:05:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/21/02 1:14:37 AM, stevevalman@yahoo.com writes:
What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone
here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine “treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend
to me?
Simply throw yourself into the ibogaine movement to help make ibogaine
available. Petition your government, protest, write letters and hope that a
lot of people are also getting treated who can join you in your work.
Anything that you can do that you believe in will keep you in better
condition after ibogaine treatment than having nothing to do. My perception
is that the difference in ibogaine treatment is ibogaine. No one has come up
with anything significantly different on the aftercare side that is more or
less beneficial to some than to others. So, if nothing else works, take
ibogaine and then go looking for something to do. Regardless of what it is.
Excluding shooting dope if that is what you want to avoid.
Howard
www.ibogaine.org/calander.html
Howard
From: gboy@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] For Steve. Re: Are the Hmoung Heading for Certain DOOM!?!?!!111!!!
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:52:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
i don’t know about thailand and sheets of lsd and that crazy shit, but if you have $50 i know a house connect down the block who will let you drop acid on his couch and watch him deal heroin so you get a taste of the patrick experience.
lot cheaper.
all ya niggaz are hella mad
fuck yeah
whoever the g is who keeps posting the time travel physics papers, when you rev up your time machine go kill bill wilson and save the world a lot of pain. especially me. fuck the 12 step shit, 6 more months of this. what a joke
my tag line
“If you Experience Problems: Call your Dealer, Rent a Shrink, or go Buy a Gun”
solid advice
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:29:21 -0800 Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
To preface my message I’m not a drug addict and don’t do any drugs
I
want to stop doing. I don’t know anything about addiction except
what
I’ve read on this list, but just in reading this list and reposting
a
msg Patrick posted a few months ago this sounds pretty good to me
🙂
Most of the treatments people describe here sound really dismal.
Sorry Patrick they lost their saving throw as you probably know
by now.
And most of the temples and statues in the ashram are now back to
being
broken rocks on the ground.
.:vector:.
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Hum . . .
THAILAND sez: Get The Hell Out!
I wonder if this will actually happen; possibly not, since it
has
been in
the perpetual process of happening since roughly the dawn of time,
or
40
years ago when a few hundred hmoung arrived and started to reproduce
a lot
— having not much else to do besides learn cultivation techniques
for
preTty PopPies in southern Thailand, and that birth control thing
not
having made a major inroads into the whole entire southeast Asia
—
which
by the way, prolly causes MOST of the AIDS splattered all over
those
countries, NOT bangin’ up, condoms not birth control pills I meant
to
say, I think, yeah that was it … Where was I, oh yes, still
in
Miami,
but as I was saying, the army rolls in, LOOKS AROUND a lot, makes
a
Stern
Announcement in the Bangkok Post that SOME Sort of Severe Action
will
take
place, real soon now; and then goes back to sleep. Since, mostly,
they
all arrived in this mountain range ‘cuz there’s an ashram there,
and
it’d
be Bad Karma to nuke an ashram in Thailand; although it might
be okay
if
it were located in Utah instead for instance. Now then, as I
was
saying
Will the BAD PEOPLE destroy a perfect, beautiful, happy little
society for
tHe HeadLines, or will the whole entire Hmoung make their saving
throw,
thus avoiding CERTAIN DOOM!?!??!?
Who can say. But I just felt strongly ALL OF YOU should be aware
of
this.
It’s a bummer all of them are so fixated on Buddha, if they looked
up
a
lil’ further, they’d find Shiva, who would just DESTROY the whole
entire
situation (inside his mind) and they could get back to resonating,
bangin’
up’, or buying shiny things, depending on what vibrational range
they
were
in at that particular time. They’re very mellow and accepting
there,
which I appreciated a lot, I have never met any group of persons
who
were
so cheerfully corrupt before, it was neat, and made me feel good
about
myself, because everything was always all-good, unlike Mexico,
which
is
mostly not so cheerfully corrupt, it experiences a lot of guilt
about
all
that and HIDES the drugs inside Jesus statues and religious altars
and
things, but still firmly believes that chiva negra is one of the
Two
Great
Demons (the other being blanco of course, most especially when
you
SMOKE
the demon, much like crack, only non-culture centric… Belize
is
very
professional in its corruption, it’s shiny and glossy and Right
Out
There,
whereas the Caribbean is more like Thailand, it’s mellow and
accepting and
easy-going mon, which I s’pose is not surprising. America as
whole
is
completely inconsistent, and vibrations vary widely, sometimes
even
from
block to block, or time of day and phase of moon, when it is possible
to
absolutely resonate with your molecules and radiate within and
through
them, while at others no matter what you do, you seem to wind
up in
these
spirals made out of barbed wire which is shredding you as you
sink
through
bleeding quicksand, hmm, oh yeah, duh, i forgot to Go into The
Light.
But
I suppose that is just the Way of the World. That is my opinion
at
this
very moment anyway, but it could change at any time.
Mostly, as a whole, this is THAILAND’s fault and the Hmoung cannot
be
held
responsible for the whole entire situation. Since the laws there
change
every 3 hours or so, depending on how moody the King is feeling
that
day,
and the only part of the laws that ever remains consistent is
that it
is
okay for them to cultivate opium poppies and USE them, because
that
is
their cultural heritage, but they’re never, ever, at all, not
even
supposed to THINK ABOUT breaking it down into heroin and exporting
it.
That would be Very Naughty.
That’s it then,
Patrick
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Note: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] For Steve. Re: Are the Hmoung Heading for Certain DOOM!?!?!!111!!!
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:29:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To preface my message I’m not a drug addict and don’t do any drugs I
want to stop doing. I don’t know anything about addiction except what
I’ve read on this list, but just in reading this list and reposting a
msg Patrick posted a few months ago this sounds pretty good to me 🙂
Most of the treatments people describe here sound really dismal.
Sorry Patrick they lost their saving throw as you probably know by now.
And most of the temples and statues in the ashram are now back to being
broken rocks on the ground.
.:vector:.
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Hum . . .
THAILAND sez: Get The Hell Out!
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:23jmCnJPXNcC:www.bangkokpost.net/110502_News/11May2002_news06.html+tham+krabok+thailand&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
I wonder if this will actually happen; possibly not, since it has
been in
the perpetual process of happening since roughly the dawn of time, or
40
years ago when a few hundred hmoung arrived and started to reproduce
a lot
— having not much else to do besides learn cultivation techniques
for
preTty PopPies in southern Thailand, and that birth control thing not
having made a major inroads into the whole entire southeast Asia —
which
by the way, prolly causes MOST of the AIDS splattered all over those
countries, NOT bangin’ up, condoms not birth control pills I meant to
say, I think, yeah that was it … Where was I, oh yes, still in
Miami,
but as I was saying, the army rolls in, LOOKS AROUND a lot, makes a
Stern
Announcement in the Bangkok Post that SOME Sort of Severe Action will
take
place, real soon now; and then goes back to sleep. Since, mostly,
they
all arrived in this mountain range ‘cuz there’s an ashram there, and
it’d
be Bad Karma to nuke an ashram in Thailand; although it might be okay
if
it were located in Utah instead for instance. Now then, as I was
saying
Will the BAD PEOPLE destroy a perfect, beautiful, happy little
society for
tHe HeadLines, or will the whole entire Hmoung make their saving
throw,
thus avoiding CERTAIN DOOM!?!??!?
Who can say. But I just felt strongly ALL OF YOU should be aware of
this.
It’s a bummer all of them are so fixated on Buddha, if they looked up
a
lil’ further, they’d find Shiva, who would just DESTROY the whole
entire
situation (inside his mind) and they could get back to resonating,
bangin’
up’, or buying shiny things, depending on what vibrational range they
were
in at that particular time. They’re very mellow and accepting there,
which I appreciated a lot, I have never met any group of persons who
were
so cheerfully corrupt before, it was neat, and made me feel good
about
myself, because everything was always all-good, unlike Mexico, which
is
mostly not so cheerfully corrupt, it experiences a lot of guilt about
all
that and HIDES the drugs inside Jesus statues and religious altars
and
things, but still firmly believes that chiva negra is one of the Two
Great
Demons (the other being blanco of course, most especially when you
SMOKE
the demon, much like crack, only non-culture centric… Belize is
very
professional in its corruption, it’s shiny and glossy and Right Out
There,
whereas the Caribbean is more like Thailand, it’s mellow and
accepting and
easy-going mon, which I s’pose is not surprising. America as whole
is
completely inconsistent, and vibrations vary widely, sometimes even
from
block to block, or time of day and phase of moon, when it is possible
to
absolutely resonate with your molecules and radiate within and
through
them, while at others no matter what you do, you seem to wind up in
these
spirals made out of barbed wire which is shredding you as you sink
through
bleeding quicksand, hmm, oh yeah, duh, i forgot to Go into The Light.
But
I suppose that is just the Way of the World. That is my opinion at
this
very moment anyway, but it could change at any time.
Mostly, as a whole, this is THAILAND’s fault and the Hmoung cannot be
held
responsible for the whole entire situation. Since the laws there
change
every 3 hours or so, depending on how moody the King is feeling that
day,
and the only part of the laws that ever remains consistent is that it
is
okay for them to cultivate opium poppies and USE them, because that
is
their cultural heritage, but they’re never, ever, at all, not even
supposed to THINK ABOUT breaking it down into heroin and exporting
it.
That would be Very Naughty.
That’s it then,
Patrick
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
From: Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 21, 2002 at 1:12:42 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’ve been reading this list for about a month now. And every time I think I’ve
seen everything it keeps getting weirder. I’ve reached the stage where I don’t
know what to think about any of it anymore. A few weeks past I thought there
are some exceptions and that is all. Now I don’t know anymore.
Instead of saying what’s already been said so many times, let me ask something
from the people here who are staying clean and have failed with every normal
aftercare treatment.
For those of you here, I have the strong impression that any kind of aftercare
which is “normal” did more harm then good for you. Was there anything that you
feel helped you, any place you went to that had a good effect on you? I’d
really like to hear, I’ve reached the stage where I think that any one
person’s road map who is in the “exception” category is useless to everyone
else.
After reading Art’s post I looked up where Patrick went to clear his head.
Unless there is something I missed, there are some promotional sites
advertising Thamkrabok and then there are the mountain of news stories which
say something completely different. However you want to add it up, you are a
junkie who had days or a week clean and went to Bangkok, to the middle of a
large scale heroin distribution ring to clear your head and get off heroin. I
have to conclude that any specific advice you give anyone has nothing at all
to do with what you yourself did. I’m starting to see there is good reason for
this. I’m not disrespecting you, I have nothing but a lot of respect for you,
but you’re from another planet.
What did other people who have had success do? I keep seeing different
retreats and non 12 step facilities being listed here, is there anyone here
who has gone to any of them, or are there only the people who run them
promoting their business? Is there any alternative after ibogaine “treatment”
that doesn’t use the 12 steps, that anyone on this list would recommend to me?
Thank you
-s
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From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] The ibogaine calendar links…
Date: November 19, 2002 at 11:32:37 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
She no work.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
From: “jon r. ludlam” <seraphina@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 20, 2002 at 5:34:03 AM EST
To: “INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Art ( arthernandez1999@yahoo.com),
I have read and reread your post to Patrick. I am VERY NEW on this web
site, and certainly claim NO EXPERTISE in the matters, however I have
actively lurked on the predecessor board for 4-5 years. My knowledge was
limited to what I have read on this and other Web Sites pertaining to this
form of treatment, until 2 weeks ago. In the previous week I had been
through the low point of my Son’s ten year addiction. He jumped out a
window 2 1/2 stories above ground level, had two Grand Mal Seizures,
numerous Petit Mal seizures, drove me down Interstate 95 at 110 MPH at
night in the driving rain and announced that he was going to kill both of
us, (I had to remove the keys three times from the ignition, but reinserted
them each time when it became evident that he had no steering and very
limited brakes.) When I asked if he had been taking his medicines he took a
handful of his antidepressant and swallowed them. I could go on, but I
think you get the picture. I was ABSOLUTELY certain that if something was
not done Quickly, I would loose him, as he repeatedly told me he wanted to
die and intended to accomplish same.
I do not cut and paste in replys as the redundancy seems to cloud
the response, I however shall attempt to reply to the questions that I can
now answer.
Understand that being of exceptional intelligence is a liability in
life, as much as an asset. (That is another subject.)
I had spoken to my Son about Ibogaine many times and he rejected the idea
summarily. When a friend of his mentioned it he seemed responsive initially
and then NIXED the idea, saying that he was opposed to mind altering drugs.
He was using 12-20 bags of heroin a day and was on 130 MG of methadone
daily, cocaine, Benzos, and had, in the past, used large quantitys of LSD.
The 130 MG of methadone a day is enough to preclude him from most if not
all detox/rehab programs in this country. He has been to 9 of them plus we
have done some home detoxes as well. He is diagnosed as Bi-Polar,
Personality Disorder Antisocial and NOS, Panic Disorder,
Obsesive/Compulsive and more from three different Institutions, as well as
two additional court ordered evaluations.
Without getting into who did what, two pair of handcuffs were
acquired and utilized, withdrawal set in and he asked for the treatment, as
he was told that it would ameliorate the withdrawal symptoms. He got the
treatment according to protocall and is NOT USING illicit drugs, and claims
that he suffered NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS, says his drug use is behind him
and is mad as hell at me.
I have never used illicit substances, my son took his first college
classes when he was 10 years old at UVA Summer session in Charlottsville
Va, and got nothing less than an A for a grade. The State of Virginia
solicited and paid for this as part of an experiment. I was opposed to
this, but my wife was not, and she accepted when it was offered the second
time while I was on a trip, working away from home.
There are many compassionate people on this Board, and they have
lived it instead of observed it, so I am just one voice in the wilderness,
but I KNOW IT WORKS, and nothing in the past has. He has used the first day
out of programs, and out of jail, hell, he has been caught using in
programs. I have been told that this treatment RESETS THE BRAIN and I
believe it.
IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are protocalls for this
treatment that include EKG, and liver function, they MUST be followed. Test
Dosing for tolerance is also IMPERATIVE. Get a Guide to get through this.
This is not a walk in the park for the patient nor the guide. My
observation is that there is no risk of addiction to this treatment as it
is REVULSIVE as well as EFFECTIVE. I.E some vomiting, numerous bowl
function misfires, a few days of musical bathrooms, beds, bedrooms, stairs,
and sofas. There is a necessity for followthrough after treatment. If
restraint is necessary to save your Son, use it, however once the treatment
starts be as compassionate as can be and then some. You do not want him so
angry that he will try to prove to you that the treatment will not work,
and compassion helps people find the LIGHT I had to decide if I was
concerned for my own consequences, or saving my sons life, I chose the
latter with trepidation. HAVE PLENTY OF HELP AND MAKE SURE THAT NO ONE
AROUND CAN MAKE ANY OUTSIDE CALLS (911) LIKE GIRLFRIENDS of his. Do NOT
Quit on your Son, Jail only gives you a rest, it does not heal your Son.
3X3=9X20=180
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
There are many compassionate people on this Board,
Get a Guide to get through this
Get a Guide to get through this
Get a Guide to get through this.
He’s going to make it !!!
He’s going to make it !!!
He’s going to make it !!!
Respectfully Yours,
John Seraphina
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Homeland Security Bill Passes into Law – Hackers are now Terrorists
Date: November 19, 2002 at 9:50:24 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180&id=200211191121000150899
Tuesday, Nov. 19, 2002
GOP Wins Senate Homeland Bill Fight
WASHINGTON (AP) – The Senate defeated an attempt by Democrats to
kill what they called special interests measures in a homeland
security bill, bringing a lame-duck Congress close to granting
President Bush’s demand for a new Cabinet agency to protect
Americans from terrorists.
The Senate voted 52-47 to reject an amendment that would have
removed from the bill seven provisions that Democrats said were
favors to friends of Republicans. The president and his key
advisers actively lobbied wavering senators to defeat the
amendment, saying its approval could doom passage of the bill this
year.
With the amendment out of the way, the Senate was set to finish
work on the legislation Tuesday, ending five months of contentious
debate on how to carry out the most monumental reorganization of
the federal government in over half a century.
The House last week provisionally finished its work for the
year, and now can approve minor technical changes in the Senate
version without calling lawmakers back to Washington.
“The terrorists are not going to wait for a process that goes
on days, weeks or months,” said Senate GOP Leader Trent Lott of
Mississippi. “…We need to get this done and we need to do it
now.”
Had the Democratic amendment prevailed, House leaders would have
had to decide whether to accept that version or initiate new
negotiations.
Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, who will be the House majority leader
in January, said Monday he was willing to call the House back into
session to defend the president’s position.
Most Democrats, while supporting the homeland security bill,
balked at what they said were last-minute inclusions of special
interest favors unrelated to the nation’s security.
“It’s the Senate’s last chance to show the American people that
we are serious about placing some controls on this massive new
bureaucracy,” said Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., leading opponent of
the legislation.
The most controversial provision would have protected
pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits over the side effects of
vaccines they create. The protections would have been retroactive
to lawsuits already in court. Democrats said that among the
lawsuits that would have been thrown out were those involving
claims that mercury-based preservatives used in vaccines cause
autism in children.
The bill also includes liability protections for makers of
airport screening equipment and airport security firms and weakens
an amendment offered by the late Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., that
would have barred companies that set up offshore tax havens from
getting federal homeland security contracts.
Bush proposed the new department last June, saying the agency
that will combine 170,000 federal workers from 22 existing agencies
was needed to provide a united front against the terrorist threat
to the nation. It would be the biggest federal government
reorganization since Harry Truman created the Defense Department in
1947.
The House approved the legislation by a wide margin in July, but
Senate debate stalled for months, first over the labor rights of
employees in the new agency and now, over special interest
provisions.
The Senate, trying to wrap up its work for the year, could also
vote Tuesday on a bill that would have the government cover up to
$90 billion annually in insurance claims from any future terrorist
attacks.
The terrorism insurance bill has been one of the president’s top
priorities for more than a year. He says many new construction
projects have been slowed because builders must pay exorbitant
terrorism insurance premiums or find that such insurance is
unavailable.
Under the bill, approved by the House last week, for the next
three years taxpayers would cover up to 90 percent of insured
losses from major attacks, with the insurance industry covering up
to the first $15 billion in annual claims.
The Homeland Security bill is H.R. 5005.
The terrorism insurance bill is H.R. 3210
On the Net: Congress: http://thomas.loc.gov/
__________________________________________________
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From: “R. A. Venglarcik” <raven@sybercom.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 9:21:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Just pump enough snow down there and I think we’ll have them iced 🙂
—–Original Message—–
From: HSLotsof@aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:49 PM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
In a message dated 11/19/02 4:24:36 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:
Do0D, you know cocaethylene is extremely dangerous and can keel you ded
meng.
“Really!?!? Sounds excellent, where do I buy an ounce?”
A question might be does cocaethylene produce the cocaine/alcohol high
without the alcohol liver toxicity? Possibly, it should be introduced
by
NIDA as a replacement/agonist therapy for cocaine as none exists. As
for
ibogaine and NIDA well, NIDA and Ibogaine are a lot like that snow ball
in
hell.
Howard
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:26:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That was honest at least bro. Rick as usual had a good answer which is my own opinion too that I’ve said before. Don’t worry so much about what patrick is doing, worry more about what could work for you.
Do you drink every night and is that now a problem, do you do the weekend warrior thing that everyone does and then keep going into the middle of the week, do you have a real drinking problem yet or it sounds like you are more like getting worried that you might.
You’re on a ibogaine list and at least have been to the 12 steps to know that it isn’t something that draws you in, so you are at least at a stage that you know you are starting to have a problem and are looking for ways to solve it bro. So that is good.
There is a lot of good advice here and at least some of it has to apply to you. Brett gave a better sum up then I could, so the question is if you don’t want to do LSD then don’t, I don’t think anyone including Patrick has ever told anyone to do that and I don’t think your problem is anywhere near the level of that.
But as someone posted was it Jon? Ibogaine is supposed to have at least some effect on alcohol. You know where to get it, so what do you have to lose? Try and see what happens bro.
Thanks for being honest. I know that is hard sometimes. I did not want to dis you in any kind of way I only wanted to know what your deal was. Thanks bro.
And I just got the greatest tag line of all time, very nice 🙂
“The Lost Ark of the Covenant is Alive and Well and Wedged in my Fucking Head”
Peace out, sending you mail off list.
Curtis
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote :
My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3 months and no longer make it out of bed in the morning that much a higher percent of days, it will take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school completely.
That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it going for a few years and graduate and worry about it then.
That is my problem.
You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you really didn’t think it was so funny then and you know it.
I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.
Buying 8 balls.
My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate
“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”
That is my problem.
__________________________________________________________
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:14:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It is very specialised and high end printing equipment. Our government is a big customer they use it to print different documents like bonds, stamps and money 😉 Its getting to the very basics of “let’s make some money” 😉
Their web site is one of the strangest things I’ve ever seen. I love their corporate news in engrish “company rates top human company. has not executed one worker yet in 2002” 😉
Haven’t been able to find Patrick clones so far, probably the world would not be able to handle that.
Peace out and print things 😉
Curtis
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 Richard Davis wrote :
What is a intaglio press? The only thing the internet finds is this, which doesn’t explain anything. it doesnt say what any of their equipment does and they are made in china.
http://www.beiren.com/english/products/intaglio.htm
—
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:27
Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
>
>Still patricK, in need of at least two clones of myself and an Intaglio
>press (which would take care of that money thing in an hour or three).
>
>
>
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From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 7:58:16 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What is a intaglio press? The only thing the internet finds is this, which doesn’t explain anything. it doesnt say what any of their equipment does and they are made in china.
http://www.beiren.com/english/products/intaglio.htm
—
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:27
Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
Still patricK, in need of at least two clones of myself and an Intaglio
press (which would take care of that money thing in an hour or three).
__________________________________________________________
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From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: November 19, 2002 at 7:58:06 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What can you expect from a guy with the last name Gooberman. Only something
truly evil would come from a name like that.
Chris
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Lance Gooberman should have lost his license a long time ago. I know 2
people personally who have seen him and describe a person worse then the
worst drug dealer theyve ever dealt with.
My tag line for the day
“Post-human, Fully Deconstructed and Completely Incoherent”
I’ll have to think on that one.
—
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:59:18
Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:17:21PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.” Lance Gooberman, I mean.
| Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
|
| Dana/cnw
Gooberman is a total and absolute fuckhead. Resnick and Gooberman
are —
or were — the two main detox doctors in the NYC area roughly 5 years
back. Resnick is, well, whatever. He’s okay. He may or may not take
various actions that are highly questionable in terms of how he
dispenses
“medication,” which is entirely between him and whomever is attempting
to
prosecute him; but he’s an okay person and NOT totally full of shit.
Lance invented the whole entire assembly-line UROD conveyor belt
paradigm;
junkie in one end –> UROD –> <presto!> You are CURED! spin control,
and
plastered huge billboards all over sugar hill, spanish harlem, and
Hunt’s
Point advertising his shit. While Andre Waismann invented UROD, Lance
is
the one who made it highly popular, very profitable, and totally sleazy.
Most of his former clients have expressed the general wish that it’d be
karmically correct to get Lance strung out, and then repeatedly detox
him
using his own methodology.
I can’t find any fault with that line of reasoning.
Patrick
__________________________________________________________
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From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: November 19, 2002 at 7:52:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lance Gooberman should have lost his license a long time ago. I know 2 people personally who have seen him and describe a person worse then the worst drug dealer theyve ever dealt with.
My tag line for the day
“Post-human, Fully Deconstructed and Completely Incoherent”
I’ll have to think on that one.
—
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:59:18
Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:17:21PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.” Lance Gooberman, I mean.
| Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
|
| Dana/cnw
Gooberman is a total and absolute fuckhead. Resnick and Gooberman are —
or were — the two main detox doctors in the NYC area roughly 5 years
back. Resnick is, well, whatever. He’s okay. He may or may not take
various actions that are highly questionable in terms of how he dispenses
“medication,” which is entirely between him and whomever is attempting to
prosecute him; but he’s an okay person and NOT totally full of shit.
Lance invented the whole entire assembly-line UROD conveyor belt paradigm;
junkie in one end –> UROD –> <presto!> You are CURED! spin control, and
plastered huge billboards all over sugar hill, spanish harlem, and Hunt’s
Point advertising his shit. While Andre Waismann invented UROD, Lance is
the one who made it highly popular, very profitable, and totally sleazy.
Most of his former clients have expressed the general wish that it’d be
karmically correct to get Lance strung out, and then repeatedly detox him
using his own methodology.
I can’t find any fault with that line of reasoning.
Patrick
__________________________________________________________
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 19, 2002 at 7:54:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape i bet
others will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me
goin back there soon
Videotape exists. Can you come to the Ibogaine working group meeting
at 22 w. 27th, 5 th fl, on Thursday from 4 to 6 pm?
Dana/cnw
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 5:45:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 02:36:02PM -0800], [Carla Barnes] wrote:
| Thanks for posting that it made me feel a lot better.
| I always thought it was only me when you answer the
| phone in your house by yelling ‘what the hell do you
| want?’
I don’t do that. Those are blatant lies and baseless allegations being
spread by my enemies. Completely untrue and lacking merit.
| You know you can only stay high on stress for about 15
| more years before you start having heart attacks.
| Especially if you chain smoke and chug coffee 😉
Aha, yes, BUT. I’m manic-depressive, thusly, for all the time I spend
bouncing off the walls and being superman, it is carefully BALANCED by all
the time I spend unable to form coherent thought and feeling like I want
to get into a fetal position and crawl under my bed.
Besides, I’ve hit the big 3-0, everything is downhill from here, and I’m
taking super-good care of myself. I’ve cut back to only 3 packs a day of
cigarettes, and never drink more than 2 gallons of coffee in any one
sitting; unless I really need to or something.
Patrick
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] ibogaine legal status?
Date: November 19, 2002 at 5:41:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think the legal status of ibogaine in the UK was
talked about no more then a week back? I’m not sure of
the details because I don’t live in the UK and it
doesn’t effect me.
Your question is really good though because I have the
same question more or less. Does anyone know where to
go to look up the scheduling of different drugs in
different countries? I can’t find any kind of central
source of this information and I guess I would have to
look up each specific country?
Any pointers in the right direction are appreciated.
Thanks!
Carla B
— marshall cohen <marshall.cohen@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
Enjoying the site very beautiful. Like the list has
a lot of different perspectives
from the day to day dreary recovery chatter.
Where can I look up the status of ibogaine in
different countries? Is it legal to
have it in the UK right now? Where is it against the
law? Don’t mean to be thick but
I am at a loss as to where I can look up this
information.
m.cohen
______________________________________________________
Kylie is still on top of the Viral chart –
http://viral.lycos.co.uk
cxwcw
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 5:36:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
LMAO 😉
Thanks for posting that it made me feel a lot better.
I always thought it was only me when you answer the
phone in your house by yelling ‘what the hell do you
want?’
You know you can only stay high on stress for about 15
more years before you start having heart attacks.
Especially if you chain smoke and chug coffee 😉
Carla B
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 06:46:51AM -0800], [Brett
Calabrese] wrote:
| There is no magic formula, no ones secret path
that
| will work for someone else. Yes, it would be nice
if
| we all did straight line, went to detox, did some
| treatment, got spiritual, ate right, got exercise,
got
| a life, went back to college, had 2.3 children and
| lived happily ever after with our childhood
| sweetheart. But things don’t happen that way and
we
| are all in our various states of success and areas
in
| need of improvement – including the most mystical
| Patrick himself.
Brett, are you trying to imply that I’m not
perfect!??!?!!? Just because
I am 500% overscheduled, live a life where my
interruptions have
interruptions, and everything is always an
emergency; doesn’t mean I need
to change anything.
It has become perfectly obvious to me, that the
whole entire world needs
to constantly rearrange itself around me. If I
wanted to be mellow and
unstressed then why would I have stopped bangin’
heroin? Heroin is very
relaxing.
Furthermore …nevermind… gotta go, being paged.
Patrick
| From a once pretty hopeless character, NEVER GIVE
UP
| HOPE, never project it, never think it, never give
in
| to it and don’t stop. “Do”, not “try”, you can get
| stuck in trying, for years.
Yeah, I strongly agree. Try is bullshit, DO — and
make whatever
mistakes you need to along the way — or get a new
battery, fucking evil,
goddamn beeping ball and chain THING strapped to my
belt leeching my
lifeforce, screeching it’s awful wanting, needing,
shrill terrible
fucking annoying sound driving spikes into my head;
whoopsie, the battery
died, whoopsie, it fell down and was run over by a
garbage truck, whoopsie
I accidentally threw it out the fucking window.
I need to work on my relationship with my beeper,
laters,
Still patricK, in need of at least two clones of
myself and an Intaglio
press (which would take care of that money thing in
an hour or three).
__________________________________________________
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Zero Point Energy and the PKD Spectrum
Date: November 19, 2002 at 4:54:41 PM EST
To: philipkdick@yahoogroups.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Zero Point Energy and the PKD Spectrum
Status:
http://www.socorro.demon.co.uk/zpe.htm
http://www.ldolphin.org/zpe.html
http://www.dnai.com/~zap/
So What is it ?
Zero Point Energy, sometimes called Zero Point Fluctuations (ZPF) or
even Quantum Vacuum Fluctuation Energy, with or without the optional
quantum, is caused by the continual popping into existence of virtual
particles. These particles vanish almost as soon as they’ve popped
into existence.The particles, which arise as matter-antimatter twins,
can interact but must, disappear within an interval set by Planck’s
constant. They are a result of random electromagnetic oscillations,
they are whats left within a vacuum once you’ve extracted all the
energy.
One way to explain this apparent contradiction is Heisenbergs
Uncertainty Principle, this implies that it is impossible to have an
absolutely zero energy condition. The same condition holds for light
waves in space. For all wavelengths of light, there is a non-zero
amount of that light. Adding up the energy for all those different
wavelenghts, the amount of energy in a given space is enormous. Even
though this is a difficult concept for traditional phyicists to come
to terms with, the idea that all this vacuum energy exists is
becoming more widley accepted, and the quantum physicists have come
in from the cold.
So is there any evidence of all this free energy actually exists.
Well there have been a number of experimental results that would
suggest/show (depends on whether your a traditional physicist or not)
that such energy actually exists:
The Casimir Effect – The most straight-forward evidence
for vacuum energy
Van der Waal Forces
The Lamb-Retherford Shift – Refers to a slight frequency
alteration in the light emitted by an excited atom
Even for those of you who have read ‘A Brief History of Time’, by
Prof. Stephen Hawkins – Hawkins Radiation, should it exist relies on
the creation of virtual particles in matter/anti-matter pairs. One
particle spirals into the Hole, the other escapes, causing the
theoretical effect.
With such large amounts of energy bouncing around, why is it so hard to notice?
Imagine, for example, if you lived on a large plateau, so large that
you didnt know you were 1000 ft up. From your point of view, your
ground is at zero height. As long as your not near the edge of your
1000 ft plateau, you wont fall off, and you will never know that
your zero is really 1000. Its kind of the same way with this vacuum
energy. It is essentially our zero reference point.
The energy of the vacuum is a puzzle in theories of quantum gravity
since it should act gravitationally and produce a large cosmological
constant that would cause space-time to curl up. The solution to the
inconsistency is expected to be found in a theory of quantum gravity.
There has been some interesting work, done in this field, by Haisch,
Rueda, and Puthoff , where vacuum fluctuations are used to explain
the effects of both gravity and inertia.
Can we extract any of this energy ?
Puthoff believes that atoms themselves offer a way to extract this
energy. This idea hinges on an unproved hypothesis: that zero-point
energy is what keeps electrons in an atom orbiting the nucleus. In
classical physics, circulating charges like an orbiting electron lose
energy through radiation. Putoff believes that zero-point energy
keeps the electron zipping around the nucleus (Quantum mechanics as
originally formulated simply states that an electron in an atom must
have some minimum, ground-state energy.)
Physicists have demonstrated that a small enough cavity can suppress
the natural inclination of a trapped, excited particle to give up
some energy and drop to a lower energy state [see “Cavity Quantum
Electrodynamics,” by Serge Haroche and Jean-Michel Raimond;
Scientific American, April 1993]. Basically, the cavity is so small
that it can exclude some of the lower-frequency vacuum fluctuations,
which the excited atom needs to emit light and drop to a lower energy
level. The cavity in effect controls the vacuum fluctuations.
Under the right circumstances, Puthoff reasons, one could effectively
manipulate the vacuum so that a new, lower ground state appears. The
electron would then drop to the lower ground state–in effect, the
atom would become smaller–and give up some energy in the process.
“It implies that hydrogen or deuterium injected into cavities might
produce excess energy,” Puthoff says.
This possibility might explain some of the cold-fusion experiments,
he notes–in other words, the occasional positive results reported in
cold-fusion tests might really be indicators of zero-point energy
(rather than, one would assume, wishful thinking). Work in cavity
quantum electrodynamics is experimentally challenging in its own
right, so it is not clear how practical an energy supply from
“shrinking atoms” could be. The Austin institute is testing a device
that could be interpreted as manipulating the vacuum. Puthoff,
however, declines to provide details, citing a proprietary
nondisclosure agreement with its designers.
Can this Energy take us to the Stars ?
Puthoff’s institute receives a little government money but gets most
of its funds from contracts with private firms. Others are backed
more explicitly by public money. This past August the National
Aeronautics and Space Administration sponsored a meeting called the
“Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop.” According to
participants, zero-point energy became a high priority among those
trying to figure out which “breakthroughs” should be pursued.
The propulsion application depends on a speculation put forth in 1994
by Puthoff, Bernhard Haisch of Lockheed Palo Alto Research Laboratory
and Alfonso Rueda of California State University at Long Beach. They
suggested that inertia–the resistance that objects put up when they
are accelerated–stems from the drag effects of moving through the
zero-point field. Because the zero-point field can be manipulated in
quantum experiments, Puthoff reasons, it should be possible to lessen
an object’s inertia and hence, for a rocket, reduce the fuel burden.
Puthoff and his colleagues have been trying to prove this
inertia-origin hypothesis–a sensitive pendulum should be able to
detect a zero-point-energy “wake” left by a moving object–but
Puthoff says they have not managed to isolate their system well
enough to do so. More conventional scientists decried the channeling
of NASA funds to a meeting where real science was lacking. “We hardly
talked about the physics” of the proposals, complained Milonni,
adding that during one of the breakout sessions “there was a guy
talking about astral projection.” Certainly, there should be room for
far-out, potentially revolutionary ideas, but not at the expense of
solid science. “One has to keep an open mind, but the concepts I’ve
seen so far would violate energy conservation,” Milonni concludes. In
sizing up zero-point-energy schemes, it may be best to keep in mind
the old caveat emptor: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably
is.
References
Haisch in Feb 1994 Phys. Rev.A Science vol 263 p 612 Scientific
American vol 270, p 30 New Scientist 25 Feb 1995 p 30
“Gravity as a Zero-Point-Fluctuation Force,” H.E. Puthoff, Physical
Review A: General Physics. Mar 1 1989, Vol39 No 5
——-
From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] zero point gravity modifications
Status:
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2072733
brave new world
Feeling Antigravity’s Pull
Can NASA stop the apple from falling on Newton’s head?
By Adam Rogers
Posted Friday, October 18, 2002, at 8:30 AM PT
“Don’t call it antigravity research,” Ron Koczor pleads. He’s a
physicist at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala.,
and he’s talking about a project he’s been working on for almost a
decade. “Call it ‘gravity modification.’ ‘Gravity anomalies.’
Anything but antigravity. That’s a red flag.”
When people find out that the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration has researchers working on sci-fi stuff like
antigravityor rather, “gravity modification”the red flags do indeed
start waving. Reputable scientists like Koczor earn polite disdain
from colleagues (or worse, from funders of research). But truth’s
truth: NASA has been studying the manipulation of gravity for at
least 10 years, as have nongovernment researchers.
NASA began its work after a Russian physicist named Evgeny Podkletnov
published an article in the peer-reviewed journal Physica C in 1992.
Podkletnov claimed that a device built around a superconductor and a
magnet could shield an object from gravity. The trick, he said, was
to make a superconducting disc about a foot in diameter, chill it,
levitate it over magnetsa nifty property of superconductors is that
they repel magnetic fieldsand set it revolving like a compact disc.
Podkletnov said an object placed above that contraption lost 0.3
percent of its weight. The object itself didn’t change. Rather,
gravity’s effect on it lessened.
If that effect could be harnessed and strengthened, the aerospace
industry would be upended. Vessels bound for space wouldn’t have to
ride atop massive, barely controlled explosions. All the energy human
beings expend moving things around, from cargo to cars, could be
reduced or eliminated. And post-Einsteinian physics would have to be
rewritten to explain what the hell was going on. Podkletnov called
the effect “gravitational force shielding,” and even in the absence
of a good theory to explain the phenomenon, other researchers took
notice. “Because his experiment and results were published in a
peer-reviewed, scientific journal, that gave it a level of
credibility,” Koczor says.
After Podkletnov published his article, it took NASA until 1999 to
figure out how to make a large, thin superconducting disc. Ceramic
high-temperature superconductors are brittle as cheap china, and the
discs kept shattering. Once they solved that problem, NASA paid
Columbus, Ohio-based SCI Engineered Materials $650,000 to build the
entire apparatus. But Podkletnov had called for a disc with two
layers, one superconducting and one not, and SCI didn’t solve that
engineering challenge until last year. Then they hit another
roadblock. The disc wouldn’t spin. SCI engineers stuck a rotor
through the disc’s center to turn it mechanically, but Podkletnov
specified 5,000 revolutions per minute. SCI’s device barely pulls 30
rpm.
Why not just ask Podkletnov how to build the thing? SCI brought him
over to consult a couple of years ago, to little avail. “His excuse
basically was that he was a ceramics physicist, not an electrical or
mechanical engineer, and other people built the device for him,”
Koczor says. “Draw your own conclusions. All I know is, if I were a
principal investigator on something like this, I would know the size
and thread-depth of every screw in the damn thing. But you know, the
Europeans and the Russians, they’re different. They’re much more,
‘this is your job and this is my job.’ So it’s plausible that he
didn’t know the details.” It might not matter. SCI’s contract is
ending, and Koczor’s budget to explore “way-out physics” is spent. He
hasn’t got the money to actually test the device even if it did meet
Podkletnov’s specs.
But researchers outside NASA are working on the problem, too. This
summer Nick Cook, a writer for Jane’s Defence Weekly, reported that
aerospace giant Boeing was pursuing antigravity research. Boeing
denied it. “We are aware of Podkletnov’s work on ‘anti-gravity’
devices and would be interested in seeing further development work
being done,” said a company statement. “However, Boeing is not
funding any activities in this area at this time.” Note Boeing’s use
of the Clintonian present tense. They never contacted Jane’s to ask
for a correction, Cook says. Meanwhile, British aerospace company BAE
Systems says it’s keeping an eye on the research, and that it had
once funded its own antigravity project, Greenglow.
Unfortunately, Cook strains his own credibility somewhat. A couple of
weeks after his Jane’s piece appeared, Cook’s book on antigravity
research, The Hunt for Zero Point, came out. In it, he claims that
the Nazis built an antigravity device during World War II. Its
absence from present-day science, Cook says, implies a vast “black”
world of secret antigravity aircraft that might explain the UFOs
people see over Area 51. He’s a careful investigative reporter, but
once you start talking about UFOs and Nazi antigravity you’re not far
from hidden tunnels under the White House full of lizard-men
disguised as Freemasons.
Even without Nazis, there are plenty of reasons to doubt Podkletnov.
My e-mails to the account listed on his recent articles (not
peer-reviewed) went unanswered. Even more problematic, I can’t find
the institution he lists as his affiliation in Moscow. “Eugene always
expressed his worries that others could copy his work, although as
far as I know he never applied for a patent,” Giovanni Modanese, a
collaborator of Podkletnov’s at the University of Bolzano in Italy,
wrote in an e-mail (using a Western version of Podkletnov’s first
name). “Nonetheless, at the scientific level if one wants a
confirmation by others and a successful replication, one must give
all the necessary elements.” Well, yeah. Modanese says that the
current version of the device, now called an “impulse gravity
generator,” is simpler and could be built “by a big-science team of
people expert in superconductivity.” A Boeing spokesperson didn’t
respond to follow-up questions. So, either there’s nothing going on
here, or it’s an X-File.
And the science? Ten years is a long time to go without replication.
Combine that with Podkletnov’s cagey behavior and it’s enough to make
even sci-fi geeks like me lose hope. But like the core of any good
conspiracy, antigravity research has the ring of plausibility. One of
the outstanding problems in physics and cosmology today involves the
existence of so-called dark matter and dark energy. They’re by far
the main constituents of matter in the universe, and nobody knows
what they’re made ofresearchers have only inferred their existence
from gravitational effects. Coming up with a new theory of how
gravity works might explain that, though it’d be a scientific
revolution on a par with relativity. “Changing gravity is in the
cards,” says Paul Schechter, an astronomer at MIT. “But so far no
one’s been able to do better than Einstein.” Still, Einstein worked
in a lowly patent office. Ron Koczor works for NASA.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 4:49:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/19/02 4:24:36 PM, digital@phantom.com writes:
Do0D, you know cocaethylene is extremely dangerous and can keel you ded
meng.
“Really!?!? Sounds excellent, where do I buy an ounce?”
A question might be does cocaethylene produce the cocaine/alcohol high
without the alcohol liver toxicity? Possibly, it should be introduced by
NIDA as a replacement/agonist therapy for cocaine as none exists. As for
ibogaine and NIDA well, NIDA and Ibogaine are a lot like that snow ball in
hell.
Howard
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 4:08:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 07:51:17AM -0800], [Mundo Real] wrote:
| Just a thought: cocaine when used in conjunction with alcohol becomes
| very toxic in the body due to cocaethylene production. Take care. Mundo.
I have conclusive, fully documented, anecdotal evidence that strongly
suggests cocaethylene doesn’t actually exist if you choose to disbelieve
innit.
Exhibit’s A-(X) are at least half a dozen people I know who have remained
functional for decades in the latter stages of alcoholism, ‘cuz they also
do cocaine. By “do cocaine” I mean snort it, not freebase or bang it up
— I haven’t ever really met anyone whose made that combination work out.
Do0D, you know cocaethylene is extremely dangerous and can keel you ded
meng.
“Really!?!? Sounds excellent, where do I buy an ounce?”
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 3:13:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 06:46:51AM -0800], [Brett Calabrese] wrote:
| There is no magic formula, no ones secret path that
| will work for someone else. Yes, it would be nice if
| we all did straight line, went to detox, did some
| treatment, got spiritual, ate right, got exercise, got
| a life, went back to college, had 2.3 children and
| lived happily ever after with our childhood
| sweetheart. But things don’t happen that way and we
| are all in our various states of success and areas in
| need of improvement – including the most mystical
| Patrick himself.
Brett, are you trying to imply that I’m not perfect!??!?!!? Just because
I am 500% overscheduled, live a life where my interruptions have
interruptions, and everything is always an emergency; doesn’t mean I need
to change anything.
It has become perfectly obvious to me, that the whole entire world needs
to constantly rearrange itself around me. If I wanted to be mellow and
unstressed then why would I have stopped bangin’ heroin? Heroin is very
relaxing.
Furthermore …nevermind… gotta go, being paged.
Patrick
| From a once pretty hopeless character, NEVER GIVE UP
| HOPE, never project it, never think it, never give in
| to it and don’t stop. “Do”, not “try”, you can get
| stuck in trying, for years.
Yeah, I strongly agree. Try is bullshit, DO — and make whatever
mistakes you need to along the way — or get a new battery, fucking evil,
goddamn beeping ball and chain THING strapped to my belt leeching my
lifeforce, screeching it’s awful wanting, needing, shrill terrible
fucking annoying sound driving spikes into my head; whoopsie, the battery
died, whoopsie, it fell down and was run over by a garbage truck, whoopsie
I accidentally threw it out the fucking window.
I need to work on my relationship with my beeper, laters,
Still patricK, in need of at least two clones of myself and an Intaglio
press (which would take care of that money thing in an hour or three).
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: November 19, 2002 at 1:59:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:17:21PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.” Lance Gooberman, I mean.
| Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
|
| Dana/cnw
Gooberman is a total and absolute fuckhead. Resnick and Gooberman are —
or were — the two main detox doctors in the NYC area roughly 5 years
back. Resnick is, well, whatever. He’s okay. He may or may not take
various actions that are highly questionable in terms of how he dispenses
“medication,” which is entirely between him and whomever is attempting to
prosecute him; but he’s an okay person and NOT totally full of shit.
Lance invented the whole entire assembly-line UROD conveyor belt paradigm;
junkie in one end –> UROD –> <presto!> You are CURED! spin control, and
plastered huge billboards all over sugar hill, spanish harlem, and Hunt’s
Point advertising his shit. While Andre Waismann invented UROD, Lance is
the one who made it highly popular, very profitable, and totally sleazy.
Most of his former clients have expressed the general wish that it’d be
karmically correct to get Lance strung out, and then repeatedly detox him
using his own methodology.
I can’t find any fault with that line of reasoning.
Patrick
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Detox’d to Death by Dr. Death
Date: November 19, 2002 at 1:17:21 PM EST
To: Newagecitizen@aol.com
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
FYI:
Tangentially relevant? TOTALLY.
Detox Doctors Ruled Not Negligent
By LINDA A. JOHNSON
.c The Associated Press
TRENTON, N.J. (AP) – Two doctors who practiced a method of rapidly detoxifying narcotics addicts were not negligent in the deaths of seven patients, but their licenses should be briefly suspended, a state judge has ruled.
Prosecutors had charged Drs. Lance Gooberman and his assistant, David Bradway, with gross and repeated malpractice, negligence, incompetence and professional misconduct. Prosecutors were seeking to revoke their medical licenses.
The charges were filed after the deaths of seven of the more than 2,350 heroin and other addicts Gooberman and Bradway treated from May 1995 to September 1999 at U.S. Detox Inc. in Merchantville. The doctors denied any wrongdoing.
After a lengthy trial, Administrative Law Judge Jeff S. Masin ruled late Friday that the prosecution had not proved any serious charges, saying the doctors generally acted in good faith.
He recommended that each have his license suspended for six months for violations of several medical standards, followed by two years’ probation during which their records would be reviewed, particularly if they resumed the rapid detoxification treatments.
The violations include inadequate record keeping, in some cases encouraging some patients to allow their cases to be described in publicity materials for the business and not telling early patients that the procedure was considered experimental.
Gooberman said Monday he plans to challenge those findings.
“I’m really excited about the decision,” he said. “It vindicated rapid detoxification. It was important for me to hear that we didn’t hurt anybody and we acted in good faith.”
The state attorney general’s office is reviewing Masin’s ruling to determine whether to file any exceptions.
Masin also recommended that Gooberman pay a total of $11,500 in civil penalties, Bradway pay a total of $14,000 in civil penalties, and they together pay one-third of the costs for investigation of the case by the state Board of Medical Examiners.
The board polices doctors licensed in the state and must review Masin’s “initial judgment.” It can accept his findings, reject them or modify them.
In his ruling, Masin wrote that there was nothing intrinsically “inappropriate or especially dangerous” about the doctors’ rapid opiate detoxification procedure.
It uses medications to rapidly flush drugs out of addicts’ bodies while they are under anesthesia for about four hours, getting them over the worst of withdrawal symptoms such as diarrhea, cramps and tremors that normally would last for several days.
The method has been widely used in Europe and Israel, but is relatively new in the United States. Doctors in six states offer the treatment.
Gooberman and Bradway have been barred from performing the procedure since September 1999.
The trial began in January 2001 and continued through June 2002.
On the Net: http://lancegooberman.com/
11/18/02 20:02 EST
Professor Hemp
New Age Citizen
PO Box 419
Dearborn Heights, MI 48127
(313)563-3192
Patrick calls this guy “Dr. Death.” Lance Gooberman, I mean. Trexan’s a Dupont product, BTW.
Dana/cnw
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 10:51:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Just a thought: cocaine when used in conjunction with alcohol becomes very toxic in the body due to cocaethylene production. Take care. Mundo.
brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3 months and no longer make it out of bed in the morning that much a higher percent of days, it will take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school completely.
That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it going for a few years and graduate and worry about it then.
That is my problem.
You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you really didn’t think it was so funny then and you know it.
I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.
Buying 8 balls.
My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate
“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”
That is my problem.
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
>Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is your deal. I
>thought at first you were one of the hacker kids who started
>reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are that too. You
>
>post messages that I know you don’t understand that or maybe I am
>
>being over sensitive and it is the internet and for the internet
>
>you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to say to you is
>
>you write things that are personal attacks on people and they are
>
>nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say anything bro,
>
>except you’re mad so you’re going to say something nasty about
>people who you do not even know.
>
>Then you post kind messages and are helpful to people, maybe in
>
>little ways, but if you were always angry you wouldn’t do that.
>
>I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply in private, but
>
>what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s your problem, or
>
>what are you trying to solve?
>
>Peace out,
>Curtis
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
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Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Brendan22
Date: November 19, 2002 at 10:44:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/19/02 8:23:23 AM, RickV@hnncsb.org writes:
My tag line for the day is: A Neverending Spree of too little time and
too much to do.
Let me add never enough money to do it with.
Howard
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 9:46:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Art,
There is no magic formula, no ones secret path that
will work for someone else. Yes, it would be nice if
we all did straight line, went to detox, did some
treatment, got spiritual, ate right, got exercise, got
a life, went back to college, had 2.3 children and
lived happily ever after with our childhood
sweetheart. But things don’t happen that way and we
are all in our various states of success and areas in
need of improvement – including the most mystical
Patrick himself. Whatever WE did, got us here, I can
honestly say that it it wasn’t for drugs I wouldn’t be
where I am today (hummm….) – and that includes some
of the pain I placed upon myself. One thing many of us
did on our path was ibogaine, it changes the
possibilities, suddenly the rules are different,
minimal effort is required where once stood a
seemingly impassable object. When once didn’t do it,
we did it again, some of us again… Whatever it
takes.
The other thing we did was (with some detours) stay on
the path – whatever it was, keep going, pick ones self
up and get back on it. Yes, I can see a visit to a
crack house on that path (as helping), sure thing,
makes perfect sense to me. Some of us have to re-visit
the Valley of the Shadow of Death one (or several)
more times before saying farewell for the last time –
of course some don’t make it back.
What do I do with him? I will send him somewhere to
do
ibogaine but then what do I do with him?
Cut the umbilical cord. He could try something non-12
step, rational recovery, maybe a stay at Oasis
Mountain will help. Whatever it is, it is UNLIKELY it
will be one smooth succes story. I gotta say, there
just isn’t anything like ibo, it is like being
transported from deep in addiction to 6 months sober
(milage varies and depends on a number of factors).
Then there are a few things most of us use in our
recovery that seems to work. They are
Desire to change, observation of ones self and effort.
Some form of recovery, working on addiction/issues.
Some form of spirituality
Some form of exercise
Improve the diet, nutrition
Know thy self, what you can and cannot do safely
Get a life – this is one area where ibogaine really
gave me a great deal of help
Keep away from doctors who like to medicate
Unless it works for ya, keep away from fear based
“recovery”.
Learn to love and enjoy ones self – that was hard.
Oh, and don’t stand still for too long…
The difference is you made it, he’s not going
to
make it.
So why try, you already failed?
From a once pretty hopeless character, NEVER GIVE UP
HOPE, never project it, never think it, never give in
to it and don’t stop. “Do”, not “try”, you can get
stuck in trying, for years.
Brett
— Art Hernandez <arthernandez1999@yahoo.com> wrote:
Patrick, I’ve too sent you mail at least twice and
never receive any replies. It wasn’t sent to kiss up
to you or waste your time, I understand you’re very
busy but please reply to me, I will send one more
email after this to the list.
I have a BS in psychology (please no jokes and then
went to a MS in engineering and what I find
fascinating about you isn’t so much that you’re a
talented person, but that you somehow move across
disciplines and move from left brain oriented to
right
brain oriented??? Do you control that or does that
just happen in some way? That isn’t manic
depression,
which I understand you are too. I’ve met many people
who are gifted at science, writing, speaking, etc
but
I’ve never met anyone who moves back and forth
through
all that, you’re not writing technical papers,
you’re
writing prose that somehow mixes all of that and
makes
it connect to people. That’s remarkable. I can read
you and get the same effect as taking LSD.
It took me a long time before I wrote you even once
because you’re someone I don’t know how to approach.
I
know you have a very colorful past and have applied
your mind in ways that have upset a lot of people.
But
in reading this list for months I’ve never seen you
attack anyone, I think you’re a really good person,
please take a little time to just reply to me.
I have a son, he’s 31 years old now. He finished
high
school at 15, he received his BS at 20, he is not
like
you but he is very smart. What I have now and have
had
for almost 5 years is someone who has to be told
that
he smells and needs to take a shower and change his
clothes. He does nothing but more heroin. I am
watching running sores on his arms get bigger and he
doesn’t stop. I don’t know what to do anymore, he
has
been to detox so many times, he has been to
treatment,
he always leaves treatment, I have taken him to
psychiatrists, counselors, everything. Nothing
works.
I don’t know how to help him anymore, looking at him
now you would never believe what he was 5 years ago.
I have noticed that many on this list have high
regard
for entheogenic drugs, but I don’t know how or if
that
would help because I don’t understand how he can
take
LSD, then do crack and heroin all in the same day. I
have done LSD and have great respect and thanks, but
he is not like that.
What do I do with him? I will send him somewhere to
do
ibogaine but then what do I do with him? I’ve read
most of what you’re written about addiction and you
say almost the same things that he says, that it’s a
bad joke run my idiots. The problem is I don’t know
where to find anyone as smart as he is, or how to
help
him. The difference is you made it, he’s not going
to
make it. The best I can hope for right now is that
he’ll go to jail for a little while and that will
slow
down the phone call that my son is dead somewhere. I
keep waiting for that.
How do I help him?
I will attend the Seattle conference and would love
to
hear you speak, please I will pay for your time if
you
will talk with my son, or can do anything to help
him.
I don’t know what to do anymore and no matter who I
send him to he tells me they are stupid and they
tell
me that he is beyond therapy and don’t know what to
do
with him so send him to someone else.
I believe that conventional treatment will not work
for some people, but where do I send him for
unconventional treatment after ibogaine? I’ve even
read about where you went, but I don’t understand
that
either. Thamkrabok appears in every newspaper
listing
as being a temple that is a front for one of the
largest heroin smuggling operations by the tribe
people in Thailand and reading the latest reports
from
the Bangkok post the army and the drug smugglers
have
blown up parts of it and are vacating 30,000 people
from the area. Whatever it was, it isn’t there
anymore.
This is like saying you went to a crackhouse to
clear
your head after doing ibogaine. I don’t understand
how
that could have worked for you. Which is where I
started, I don’t understand how you do what you’ve
done, I don’t understand how to help my son and I
can’t find anyone else who does either.
Please reply to my email.
AH
— Alison Senepart <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
Poor rat.. I can relate to that whole thing. I
havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for
a
while now. Must admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about. I can stay clean for months at a time but
every so often give in to
the temptation and then have to try and get back
to
reality, although it was
so good at the time. Am pretty constant on 10mgs
methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and
hopefully I will be able to
drop that again in the near future. My partner is
on 85mgs a day and is not
interested at all in dropping his dose down.
Guess
different things work
for different people and everyone has to figure
out
their own solution.??
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body
weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox
Hi, I found this through reading the addiction
series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t
focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the
best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t
reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would
please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does
it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read
some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all
the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes
but
i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use
heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try
to
send email but its never replied to :-((
laurie
<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com
Yo, that wasn’t me. That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I
Addiction?
Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful,
mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and
operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.
But unstable and FLYING out of everything.
Or was that my universal remote…
The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.
People create theories in an attempt to
understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who
lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the
events
in question.
Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is
awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it
destroys
things. I will never do fire again! In fact I
will
gather together groups of other people who have
all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire
is
awful, to make myself feel better.
Yeah, well, okay. If that works for you,
fabulous.
But ya know what? It’s not the “correct”
solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally
wrong
–
or more specifically, incomplete. Because when
you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from
death.
And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively
using
drugs… it’s not all that different from the
one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives. Most people are not all
that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most
of
the
time. The only thing that separates you from
them,
is
you have partially learned something they don’t
know
about. If you’re feeling like shit, or even if
you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high –
you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or
that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to
the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but
somehow
totally different.
Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.
What all this means is: congratulations, you’re
human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek
altered
states of consciousness. Sex, drugs, rock n’
roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles
until
they get dizzy. It’s all the same thing.
If you have the specific goal of moving away from
drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances,
the
drugs in question are no longer working for
you,
or
the consequences of continued use — in current
society — are too high a price to pay. I can
offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.
To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related
systems;
psychology, biology and neurology. We can for
example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
addiction — upon exposure to a particular
molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.
Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…? Did the rat go to rodent therapy
and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into
its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to
a
higher power of its understanding? Uhm…
Probably
not. The only higher power it has come into
contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be
found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.
However, this is the part where it all spins in
the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a
higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it
very
little time to arrive at the understanding,
hmmm,
I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with
sharp
objects. The only thing I have to look forward
to
is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw
me
in
the garbage. Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t
I
hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not
like
things could possibly get any worse.>>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:57:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.
I don’t have any personal experience with this, but the research suggests
that ibogaine would work for alcohol addiction as well.
e.g.:
Rezvani, A., Overstreet, D., and Lee, Y. (1995). Attenuation of alcohol
intake by ibogaine in three strains of alcohol preferring rats.
Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behaviour, Vol. 52, 615 620.
Rezvani, A., Overstreet, D., Yang, Y., Maisonneuve, I., Bandarage, U.,
Kuehne, M., and Glick, S. (1997). Attenuation of alcohol consumption by a
novel non-toxic ibogaine analog (18methoxycoronaridine) in alcohol
preferring rats. Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behavior, Vol. 58, 615
619.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
— Benjamin Franklin
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] To Brendan22
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:22:51 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My biggest problem is that I don’t drink. Sometimes it’s more of a
problem and sometimes less. But when I look at the last 3 months, most
times they are better than the 3 before that.
Time is my problem. I don’t have enough of it to pursue everything I
enjoy and manage to get some sleep. I don’t really care to restrict
myself to 4-5 hours of sleep per night, but if I want to pursue my
interests, I have to do so. I don’t really like a lot of things, but
many of them I do anyway because they are good for me and I see the
benefits afterward. Eventually, the cart begins to move in front of the
horse.
Perhaps you are overly concerned with trying to understand or follow
Patrick’s road map. What’s the point of that? You’re driving. It’s your
vehicle. You’re the one traveling to your own destination.
I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD either, but if that is what I
figured it would take, I’d be dosing. At this point in my life, it
just isn’t needed. In addition, I just don’t have the time.
My tag line for the day is: A Neverending Spree of too little time and
too much to do.
That is my solution. That is my nightmare.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
brendan22@hushmail.com 11/19/02 12:40AM >>>
My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is more of a problem,
sometimes less. Looking at the last 3 months they are worse then the 3
before that and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3 months and no
longer make it out of bed in the morning that much a higher percent of
days, it will take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school
completely.
That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I don’t know if
ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking more like adding cocaine to the
mix so I can keep it going for a few years and graduate and worry about
it then.
That is my problem.
You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person but has a roadmap
that is about as easy to follow as the stupid dzogchen writings. What
does any of that mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and
think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you really didn’t think it
was so funny then and you know it.
I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t
hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.
Buying 8 balls.
My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate
“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”
That is my problem.
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis Hersch
<crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is your deal. I
thought at first you were one of the hacker kids who started
reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are that too. You
post messages that I know you don’t understand that or maybe I am
being over sensitive and it is the internet and for the internet
you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to say to you is
you write things that are personal attacks on people and they are
nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say anything bro,
except you’re mad so you’re going to say something nasty about
people who you do not even know.
Then you post kind messages and are helpful to people, maybe in
little ways, but if you were always angry you wouldn’t do that.
I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply in private, but
what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s your problem, or
what are you trying to solve?
Peace out,
Curtis
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:13:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Brendan
Your “problem” is you want to get high and that seems
to be a problem for you. Maybe you see ibogaine as a
hallucinogen and are afraid, however it has been
pointed out by more than one on this board that it is
not/is not its primary function/is not like
hallucinogens/not like tripping out/is like REM sleep
– as in dreaming while awake and opening your eyes
will stop the big mean scary dreams… You don’t hear
the miracle when it comes to alcohol but I for one was
an alcoholic and stopped drinking (and everything
else) with the aid of ibogaine and have posted this
several times. But hey, better not to try, you might
actually succeed and we wouldn’t want that, maybe
better find something with a guarantee of success…
Have fun with your problems, I sure know I did.
Brett
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is
more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the
last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that
and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3
months and no longer make it out of bed in the
morning that much a higher percent of days, it will
take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school
completely.
That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I
don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking
more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it
going for a few years and graduate and worry about
it then.
That is my problem.
You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person
but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as
the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that
mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and
think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you
really didn’t think it was so funny then and you
know it.
I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps
are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine
for alcohol. Where does that leave me.
Buying 8 balls.
My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate
“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”
That is my problem.
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis Hersch
<crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is
your deal. I
thought at first you were one of the hacker kids
who started
reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are
that too. You
post messages that I know you don’t understand that
or maybe I am
being over sensitive and it is the internet and for
the internet
you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to
say to you is
you write things that are personal attacks on
people and they are
nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say
anything bro,
except you’re mad so you’re going to say something
nasty about
people who you do not even know.
Then you post kind messages and are helpful to
people, maybe in
little ways, but if you were always angry you
wouldn’t do that.
I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply
in private, but
what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s
your problem, or
what are you trying to solve?
Peace out,
Curtis
Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 8:12:54 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Brendan
Your “problem” is you want to get high and that seems
to be a problem for you. Maybe you see ibogaine as a
hallucinogen and are afraid, however it has been
pointed out by more than one on this board that it is
not/is not its primary function/is not like
hallucinogens/not like tripping out/is like REM sleep
– as in dreaming while awake and opening your eyes
will stop the big mean scary dreams… You don’t hear
the miracle when it comes to alcohol but I for one was
an alcoholic and stopped drinking (and everything
else) with the aid of ibogaine and have posted this
several times. But hey, better not to try, you might
actually succeed and we wouldn’t want that, maybe
better find something with a guarantee of success…
Have fun with your problems, I sure know I did.
Brett
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is
more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the
last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that
and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3
months and no longer make it out of bed in the
morning that much a higher percent of days, it will
take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school
completely.
That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I
don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking
more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it
going for a few years and graduate and worry about
it then.
That is my problem.
You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person
but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as
the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that
mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and
think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you
really didn’t think it was so funny then and you
know it.
I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps
are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine
for alcohol. Where does that leave me.
Buying 8 balls.
My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate
“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”
That is my problem.
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis Hersch
<crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is
your deal. I
thought at first you were one of the hacker kids
who started
reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are
that too. You
post messages that I know you don’t understand that
or maybe I am
being over sensitive and it is the internet and for
the internet
you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to
say to you is
you write things that are personal attacks on
people and they are
nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say
anything bro,
except you’re mad so you’re going to say something
nasty about
people who you do not even know.
Then you post kind messages and are helpful to
people, maybe in
little ways, but if you were always angry you
wouldn’t do that.
I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply
in private, but
what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s
your problem, or
what are you trying to solve?
Peace out,
Curtis
Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 19, 2002 at 12:40:06 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My problem is that I drink too much. Sometimes it is more of a problem, sometimes less. Looking at the last 3 months they are worse then the 3 before that and the 3 before that. If I look at the next 3 months and no longer make it out of bed in the morning that much a higher percent of days, it will take me about 9 more months to bomb out of school completely.
That is my problem. I don’t like hallucinegens. I don’t know if ibogaine would help much. I’m thinking more like adding cocaine to the mix so I can keep it going for a few years and graduate and worry about it then.
That is my problem.
You’re a nice person, Patrick is a talented person but has a roadmap that is about as easy to follow as the stupid dzogchen writings. What does any of that mean anyway, you quote half a library at random and think it’s all funny. I read your writing and you really didn’t think it was so funny then and you know it.
I’m not doing some huge dose of LSD. The 12 steps are crap, I don’t hear any miracles about ibogaine for alcohol. Where does that leave me.
Buying 8 balls.
My Mindvox tag line for the day is too appropriate
“A Neverending Spree of Death, Violence and Hate”
That is my problem.
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:59:35 -0800 Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is your deal. I
thought at first you were one of the hacker kids who started
reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are that too. You
post messages that I know you don’t understand that or maybe I am
being over sensitive and it is the internet and for the internet
you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to say to you is
you write things that are personal attacks on people and they are
nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say anything bro,
except you’re mad so you’re going to say something nasty about
people who you do not even know.
Then you post kind messages and are helpful to people, maybe in
little ways, but if you were always angry you wouldn’t do that.
I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply in private, but
what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s your problem, or
what are you trying to solve?
Peace out,
Curtis
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC Ibogaine Forum Report
Date: November 18, 2002 at 7:18:55 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sorry for the delay in getting a requested report on the NYC Ibogaine Forum
of November 16 to the mindvox list. So here goes.
The Ibogaine Working Group (IWG) acted as a coordinating committee for the
Nov 16 event and is also acting as to coordinate with the assistance of
others the anticipated International Ibogaine Conference scheduled for
February 7 and 8, 2003. I am waiting for the venue contracts before inviting
presenters so please hang in for another week. Once the contracts are signed
a substantial web page will be established to provide information and allow
registration and submission of abstracts. Individuals wishing to present
should be prepared to submit abstracts. Thanks on that.
The IWG’s intent for the NYC Ibogaine Forum in Harlem was not only to
continue to make ibogaine information available but, the hope that the Black
community would assume considerable control of moving information and
legitimate ibogaine availability into their communities. The NYC Forum held
at the Dempsey Center was a dramatic event in that five of the six presenters
were Black: Suzanne Bellamy, Awolowo Johnson, Emmanuel Onaivi, Playthell
Benjamin and Elombe Brath. Everyone at the event was excited by the energy
of the presentations. In fact, the one white guy who presented, Dr. Kenneth
R. Alper called me to let me know how keen he was on the energy and concept
of the forum and how very New York it was to hold the event in Harlem.
(Couldn’t resist that. Sorry, Ken ;-). Personally, I was blown away by the
presenters. Now the key issues as I see it is keeping up the energy and
giving back Africa’s gift to the people of African decent in the United
States. Two of the presenters recently returned from Europe where they
underwent iboga initiations for shamanic/healing/learning purposes. This is
a new beginning for transforming the information on ibogaine into practical
experience which is what usually drives the explosions of ibogaine awareness
and development wherever they occur.
Check out the Ibogaine events Calendar <www.ibogaine.desk.nl/calendar.html>
or <http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/calendar.html>. If you are in a city holding
a conference or forum be sure to attend.
Howard
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Conference Calendar
Date: November 18, 2002 at 6:56:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
For a list of upcoming ibogaine conferences and meetings please see:
http://www.ibogaine.org/calendar.html
or
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/calendar.html
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Reposting Rick plus nicks questions
Date: November 18, 2002 at 3:52:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey i like what i hear here cuz what is said here stays here so i hear herehere! Anyways i am preparing to go for ibogaine treatment in middle january i am on methadone 105 mgs down 5 today i am gonna try to switch back to heroin before the ibo T-ment. cuz i hear its easier to kick and i know it is. but i am going to mostly A.,A right now i used to go to 5 N.a meetings a week and 1 A.A. now i go to 4-5 A.A.meetings a week 1 heroin anonymous that uses the A.A big book stuff and 1 N.A. i found that there was alot more peple in A.A. with 4 or more years sober they claim and there i would say 7% with 10 years or more.But the ones with 10 or more almost never sign court signing papers cuz they hate the idea that someone is forced to go maybe to 1 or two meetings to check it out is alright but to be forced to go 3 times a week or more is nonsence it just hurts the meetings.I used heroin 30 mins.ago A.A. and N.A. don’t really do that much to get me sober nor due they do more than a little to keep me sober i have found that its up to me but anyways I can say in all honesty A.A. has helped with the meeting of new people wich is key to the after care of tratment.If i go back to the same places and same faces and paces of life i will go right back.and i do believe in complete abstinenece.cu “”! is too many and 1,000,000 is never enough” especially with a rock”: btu heroin has got me i live in Ann Arbor Michigan 25 mins. from the lovely wello kept city of Detroit.HAHA Anyways i would like to find out as much info on as many after care things i can do and participate in aafter i get done with the 6 meesly day detox wich i am scared is only half the amount of time that i need. What Works Really? what have you or you or you done after ibo treatment? I’m scared! I could take on two street fighters in an ally or a bull in a ring but opiate detox and sobriety scares me like i’m wearing a diaper in the fetal position. i have been to two in patient rehabs one for 9 days for H. then the other for 34 days wich i still thought wasn’t long enough. but the 34 days helped me so much i don’t know with ibo but cold turkey just heroin no methadone took me 3 weeks for my brain and body to detox and bye day 25 i was only sleeping 2 hours a night and thats not consecutive. So i am scared about getting down to about 25-30 mgs methadone then stopping switching to as little of heroin as possible maybe even try to skip a day and lock myself in a room or something.Help me! I know there is a better way. I know i will be happy if i can get through those first two moonths thats all i need then i can start some new good friendwwships.Oh sexual relationships inA.A are also Taboo for the first 9 months well i have been in A.A and N.A. for 4 years on and off and there was some pretty extensive breaks in there 9 months twice so whatever that means but there is not anything magical at A.A. and when you do relapse there its hard to come back cuz you count everyday that you are sober{like a jail sentence might i add} so it sets you up for humiliation and despair when you use one day and you have to start at day one .but you go back and don’t tell anyone then now you are lying and keeping in lyes is one of the worst things for your psyche!so then you tell them a month later after they congradulate you on 6 months and now your the sneaky lier whatever this sucks.I feel like this is my destiny sometimes.Me and some Heroin anonymou people call it junkie destiny which alot of us feel but i know that it can go away if you tell yourself the opposite when your sober. I have not had a taste of complete sobriety since january of last actually this year i went to rehab on 9/31 right after 9/11 which i remember getting woke up right after the first tower got hit i woke up in puddle of puke to see it. then rehab from9/31 till 11/3 then i stayed sober for 2 months it was so hard!soso hard the only thing keeping me from using was this girl i met i rehab then we went to A.A/N.A. meetings together and i think she could have been my wife but in JAN. i did 1 blow and told her a week later.Needless to say i had so much guilt. i wanted sobriety but i gave in spur of the moment. and i told her hey if i start using leave me alone i will rob you or get you to use i get very manipulative when full blown using so after i used once she held the promise i made her keep in rehab cuz i did love her.I loved her so much i would rather have her sober without me than using with me so that depressed me and back to the addiction Nick goes and it was bad real bad!my using skyroketed to double i would do like a gram a day and i had to sell drugs i knew i had to do something when i robbed one of my drug dealers right on the block and got in a high speed car chase. i prayed for a bullet in the head and not in the stomach or anywere that would hurt cuz i was sick and tired but i got away with a couple of grams and swore i would stop i tryed to ween myself down but we all know how well self bargaining works. So i fgured it was death or methadone so i got on meth 8 or 9 months ago whatever it is.And shit i can’t knock meth totally cuz it does work for harm prevention.cuz 150mgs held me after a week or two enabling me to get a job. so here oi am strung out on metrhadone occasional heroin use. but still none the less stuck! Thats my story and i am sticking to it.i love and hate opiates so much!
The downward spiral of my life
Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Reposting Rick
On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Rick Venglarcik wrote :
>Erica,
> Coming from the “treatment pimp” perspective, there isn’t
>much to
>add. Recovery is work. Increase your baseline Dopamine and
>Serotonin
>levels, learn to extinguish conditioned responses, and relocate
>to a
>completely new environment, if possible (start out on a brand
>new
>adventure). Develop new, healthier addictions (also known as
>habits),
>and do whatever you find that works for you. The 12-steps work
>for some
>people. So does Church. Or Synagogue. Or a “New Age” commune. Try
>SMART.
>Learn stress coping skills and activities (EXERCISE…to
>release
>endorphins and serotonin). Most “programs” are somewhat
>arbitrary and
>filled with dogma…but many people will require such an
>approach. Take
>what you NEED, and what WORKS FOR YOU. If you are of a mindset
>that you
>don’t “buy in to,” someone telling you THIS IS THE WAY, THE
>ONLY
>WAY…WALK YE IN IT. bUT IF YOU ARE OF THAT MINDSET…WALK YE IN
>IT.
>
>_____________________________________
>Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
>Hampton Roads Clinic
>2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
>Hampton, VA 23666
>
>Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
>Fax: (757) 826-2772
>Cell: (757) 270-9839
>_____________________________________
>
>
> >>> randyhencken@hotmail.com 10/07/02 01:52PM >>>
>Erica,
>
>Congratulations on your preparation for a big change in your
>life. Hear
>
>this: It is not going to be easy. Ibogaine is the shit for
>opiate
>dependence and you are going to get off your habit without most
>of the
>
>nastiness and with dignity. What happens next is what is
>difficult.
>Don’t
>expect that you instantly won’t want to dope just because you had
>this
>crazy
>trip on iboga. You are going to have to work on yourself and
>be
>vigilant
>against picking up again. I watch a lot of people go through
>this
>treatment. The ones who succeed take a realistic approach. The
>ones
>who
>fall back into using expect that being clean, once they detox, is
>going
>to
>be easy. wrong. Doing dope is easy.
>
>The others have giving you some good advice. Check out SMART
>recovery
>it is
>a great program that is designed to be tailored to the
>individual. It
>is not
>a life long commitment either. The goal is you use their program
>for 3
>
>months to a year or so and then you put addiction behind you.
>Smart
>recovery is a not-for-profit entity as opposed to Rational
>Recovery.
>RR has
>a few great ideas and you can find them in Jack Trimpey’s “the
>small
>book”.
>But asides from that I wouldn’t shell out too much money in
>RR’s
>direction
>when you can gain equally good coaching through smart.
>
>And it’s true that 12-steps are garbage. They have been in
>existence
>for
>over 67 years and there has never been one scientific study that
>has
>proven
>their effectiveness. 12-steps are arbitrary and filled with
>dogma.
>You are
>probably a bright young women who can figure most things out
>for
>yourself.
>Don’t give up thinking just because your in recovery,instead
>learn how
>to be
>in charge of your own head.
>
>Don’t bother entering a residential treatment center either.
>The
>National
>Institute on Drug Abuse found that they are truly unnecessary and
>that
>is
>why outpatient treatment is on the rise.
>
>I really could go on and on about this subject, because I’m
>very
>involved in
>the recovery process. But I don’t want to be overwhelming.
>Visit the
>Smart
>web page www.smartrecovery.org
>
>Go to http://ibogaine-therapy.net/testimonials.htm and read my
>testimonial
>it will give you a good insight into my perspective on ibogaine
>and
>life
>there after.
>
>You can do it! Go get it!
>
>Randy H.
>
> >From: “Erica Theissen”
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: [ibogaine] what happens right after ibogaine?
> >Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 08:00:32 -1000
> >
> >Hi I’ve been reading this list for a while and think this is
> >a great place.
> >
> >I’m 25 and I’ve been doing heroin since I was 18 and lately
> >mostly oxy’s. I will be doing ibogaine in a month and I have
> >some questions for anyone who can answer please.
> >
> >I have never done any drug treatment or the aftercare before
> >but reading what’s online in places and in this group nearly
> >all of you have gone through some of that or a lot of that,
> >but mostly none of you are doing it now to stay clean and
> >had bad experiences with it.
> >
> >I was wondering what some of you do or did to stay clean
> >right after ibogaine? Should I expect it to be very hard or
> >does the desire to stop using just go away? I’ve read about
> >the last month and a half of this list and I’ve read
> >Patrick’s articles and writings which are like wow, do you
> >want to get some coffee and talk, are you single? 😉 What I
> >mean is you’re a really smart weirdo who’s cute and wow can
> >you write! I read some of it and it’s you’re writing a acid
> >trip, how the f**k do you do that? And where do I get
> >whatever drugs you’ve done! 😉
> >
> >But what I mean is I’m interested and attracted by what you
> >are and what you say but at the same time I have to be real
> >and admit I have not the slightest idea what you’re talking
> >about most of the time.
> >
> >I know some of you here are doing all that too but I’m much
> >more interested in knowing what happens a week after
> >ibogaine? a month? I’ve read enough here to believe it works
> >and cleans you up but then what do I do? I hate the groups,
> >are there any different or better groups or anything.
> >
> >What I mean to say is some of you have progressed a long way
> >from being on heroin and gone to much different places but
> >what were all of you who made it and are clean years later,
> >doing a week after you got off heroin and did ibogaine! And
> >a month after. That exactly is my question.
> >
> >Thank you!
> >
> >erica
>
__________________________________________________________
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From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Reposting Rick plus nicks questions
Date: November 18, 2002 at 3:52:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey i like what i hear here cuz what is said here stays here so i hear herehere! Anyways i am preparing to go for ibogaine treatment in middle january i am on methadone 105 mgs down 5 today i am gonna try to switch back to heroin before the ibo T-ment. cuz i hear its easier to kick and i know it is. but i am going to mostly A.,A right now i used to go to 5 N.a meetings a week and 1 A.A. now i go to 4-5 A.A.meetings a week 1 heroin anonymous that uses the A.A big book stuff and 1 N.A. i found that there was alot more peple in A.A. with 4 or more years sober they claim and there i would say 7% with 10 years or more.But the ones with 10 or more almost never sign court signing papers cuz they hate the idea that someone is forced to go maybe to 1 or two meetings to check it out is alright but to be forced to go 3 times a week or more is nonsence it just hurts the meetings.I used heroin 30 mins.ago A.A. and N.A. don’t really do that much to get me sober nor due they do more than a little to keep me sober i have found that its up to me but anyways I can say in all honesty A.A. has helped with the meeting of new people wich is key to the after care of tratment.If i go back to the same places and same faces and paces of life i will go right back.and i do believe in complete abstinenece.cu “”! is too many and 1,000,000 is never enough” especially with a rock”: btu heroin has got me i live in Ann Arbor Michigan 25 mins. from the lovely wello kept city of Detroit.HAHA Anyways i would like to find out as much info on as many after care things i can do and participate in aafter i get done with the 6 meesly day detox wich i am scared is only half the amount of time that i need. What Works Really? what have you or you or you done after ibo treatment? I’m scared! I could take on two street fighters in an ally or a bull in a ring but opiate detox and sobriety scares me like i’m wearing a diaper in the fetal position. i have been to two in patient rehabs one for 9 days for H. then the other for 34 days wich i still thought wasn’t long enough. but the 34 days helped me so much i don’t know with ibo but cold turkey just heroin no methadone took me 3 weeks for my brain and body to detox and bye day 25 i was only sleeping 2 hours a night and thats not consecutive. So i am scared about getting down to about 25-30 mgs methadone then stopping switching to as little of heroin as possible maybe even try to skip a day and lock myself in a room or something.Help me! I know there is a better way. I know i will be happy if i can get through those first two moonths thats all i need then i can start some new good friendwwships.Oh sexual relationships inA.A are also Taboo for the first 9 months well i have been in A.A and N.A. for 4 years on and off and there was some pretty extensive breaks in there 9 months twice so whatever that means but there is not anything magical at A.A. and when you do relapse there its hard to come back cuz you count everyday that you are sober{like a jail sentence might i add} so it sets you up for humiliation and despair when you use one day and you have to start at day one .but you go back and don’t tell anyone then now you are lying and keeping in lyes is one of the worst things for your psyche!so then you tell them a month later after they congradulate you on 6 months and now your the sneaky lier whatever this sucks.I feel like this is my destiny sometimes.Me and some Heroin anonymou people call it junkie destiny which alot of us feel but i know that it can go away if you tell yourself the opposite when your sober. I have not had a taste of complete sobriety since january of last actually this year i went to rehab on 9/31 right after 9/11 which i remember getting woke up right after the first tower got hit i woke up in puddle of puke to see it. then rehab from9/31 till 11/3 then i stayed sober for 2 months it was so hard!soso hard the only thing keeping me from using was this girl i met i rehab then we went to A.A/N.A. meetings together and i think she could have been my wife but in JAN. i did 1 blow and told her a week later.Needless to say i had so much guilt. i wanted sobriety but i gave in spur of the moment. and i told her hey if i start using leave me alone i will rob you or get you to use i get very manipulative when full blown using so after i used once she held the promise i made her keep in rehab cuz i did love her.I loved her so much i would rather have her sober without me than using with me so that depressed me and back to the addiction Nick goes and it was bad real bad!my using skyroketed to double i would do like a gram a day and i had to sell drugs i knew i had to do something when i robbed one of my drug dealers right on the block and got in a high speed car chase. i prayed for a bullet in the head and not in the stomach or anywere that would hurt cuz i was sick and tired but i got away with a couple of grams and swore i would stop i tryed to ween myself down but we all know how well self bargaining works. So i fgured it was death or methadone so i got on meth 8 or 9 months ago whatever it is.And shit i can’t knock meth totally cuz it does work for harm prevention.cuz 150mgs held me after a week or two enabling me to get a job. so here oi am strung out on metrhadone occasional heroin use. but still none the less stuck! Thats my story and i am sticking to it.i love and hate opiates so much!
The downward spiral of my life
Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Reposting Rick
On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Rick Venglarcik wrote :
>Erica,
> Coming from the “treatment pimp” perspective, there isn’t
>much to
>add. Recovery is work. Increase your baseline Dopamine and
>Serotonin
>levels, learn to extinguish conditioned responses, and relocate
>to a
>completely new environment, if possible (start out on a brand
>new
>adventure). Develop new, healthier addictions (also known as
>habits),
>and do whatever you find that works for you. The 12-steps work
>for some
>people. So does Church. Or Synagogue. Or a “New Age” commune. Try
>SMART.
>Learn stress coping skills and activities (EXERCISE…to
>release
>endorphins and serotonin). Most “programs” are somewhat
>arbitrary and
>filled with dogma…but many people will require such an
>approach. Take
>what you NEED, and what WORKS FOR YOU. If you are of a mindset
>that you
>don’t “buy in to,” someone telling you THIS IS THE WAY, THE
>ONLY
>WAY…WALK YE IN IT. bUT IF YOU ARE OF THAT MINDSET…WALK YE IN
>IT.
>
>_____________________________________
>Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
>Hampton Roads Clinic
>2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
>Hampton, VA 23666
>
>Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
>Fax: (757) 826-2772
>Cell: (757) 270-9839
>_____________________________________
>
>
> >>> randyhencken@hotmail.com 10/07/02 01:52PM >>>
>Erica,
>
>Congratulations on your preparation for a big change in your
>life. Hear
>
>this: It is not going to be easy. Ibogaine is the shit for
>opiate
>dependence and you are going to get off your habit without most
>of the
>
>nastiness and with dignity. What happens next is what is
>difficult.
>Don’t
>expect that you instantly won’t want to dope just because you had
>this
>crazy
>trip on iboga. You are going to have to work on yourself and
>be
>vigilant
>against picking up again. I watch a lot of people go through
>this
>treatment. The ones who succeed take a realistic approach. The
>ones
>who
>fall back into using expect that being clean, once they detox, is
>going
>to
>be easy. wrong. Doing dope is easy.
>
>The others have giving you some good advice. Check out SMART
>recovery
>it is
>a great program that is designed to be tailored to the
>individual. It
>is not
>a life long commitment either. The goal is you use their program
>for 3
>
>months to a year or so and then you put addiction behind you.
>Smart
>recovery is a not-for-profit entity as opposed to Rational
>Recovery.
>RR has
>a few great ideas and you can find them in Jack Trimpey’s “the
>small
>book”.
>But asides from that I wouldn’t shell out too much money in
>RR’s
>direction
>when you can gain equally good coaching through smart.
>
>And it’s true that 12-steps are garbage. They have been in
>existence
>for
>over 67 years and there has never been one scientific study that
>has
>proven
>their effectiveness. 12-steps are arbitrary and filled with
>dogma.
>You are
>probably a bright young women who can figure most things out
>for
>yourself.
>Don’t give up thinking just because your in recovery,instead
>learn how
>to be
>in charge of your own head.
>
>Don’t bother entering a residential treatment center either.
>The
>National
>Institute on Drug Abuse found that they are truly unnecessary and
>that
>is
>why outpatient treatment is on the rise.
>
>I really could go on and on about this subject, because I’m
>very
>involved in
>the recovery process. But I don’t want to be overwhelming.
>Visit the
>Smart
>web page www.smartrecovery.org
>
>Go to http://ibogaine-therapy.net/testimonials.htm and read my
>testimonial
>it will give you a good insight into my perspective on ibogaine
>and
>life
>there after.
>
>You can do it! Go get it!
>
>Randy H.
>
> >From: “Erica Theissen”
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >Subject: [ibogaine] what happens right after ibogaine?
> >Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 08:00:32 -1000
> >
> >Hi I’ve been reading this list for a while and think this is
> >a great place.
> >
> >I’m 25 and I’ve been doing heroin since I was 18 and lately
> >mostly oxy’s. I will be doing ibogaine in a month and I have
> >some questions for anyone who can answer please.
> >
> >I have never done any drug treatment or the aftercare before
> >but reading what’s online in places and in this group nearly
> >all of you have gone through some of that or a lot of that,
> >but mostly none of you are doing it now to stay clean and
> >had bad experiences with it.
> >
> >I was wondering what some of you do or did to stay clean
> >right after ibogaine? Should I expect it to be very hard or
> >does the desire to stop using just go away? I’ve read about
> >the last month and a half of this list and I’ve read
> >Patrick’s articles and writings which are like wow, do you
> >want to get some coffee and talk, are you single? 😉 What I
> >mean is you’re a really smart weirdo who’s cute and wow can
> >you write! I read some of it and it’s you’re writing a acid
> >trip, how the f**k do you do that? And where do I get
> >whatever drugs you’ve done! 😉
> >
> >But what I mean is I’m interested and attracted by what you
> >are and what you say but at the same time I have to be real
> >and admit I have not the slightest idea what you’re talking
> >about most of the time.
> >
> >I know some of you here are doing all that too but I’m much
> >more interested in knowing what happens a week after
> >ibogaine? a month? I’ve read enough here to believe it works
> >and cleans you up but then what do I do? I hate the groups,
> >are there any different or better groups or anything.
> >
> >What I mean to say is some of you have progressed a long way
> >from being on heroin and gone to much different places but
> >what were all of you who made it and are clean years later,
> >doing a week after you got off heroin and did ibogaine! And
> >a month after. That exactly is my question.
> >
> >Thank you!
> >
> >erica
>
__________________________________________________________
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ravi @ ravi-exports.com. Sign up for Rediffmail Pro today!
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From: marshall cohen <marshall.cohen@lycos.co.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] ibogaine legal status?
Date: November 17, 2002 at 10:23:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Enjoying the site very beautiful. Like the list has a lot of different perspectives
from the day to day dreary recovery chatter.
Where can I look up the status of ibogaine in different countries? Is it legal to
have it in the UK right now? Where is it against the law? Don’t mean to be thick but
I am at a loss as to where I can look up this information.
m.cohen
______________________________________________________
Kylie is still on top of the Viral chart – http://viral.lycos.co.uk
cxwcw
From: gboy@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] reposting Patrick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 7:21:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—–
it needs to be said. he says it well. anybody who wants to go to the 12 steps should go there but that it is some accepted treatment for anything is sick. it isn’t a program of attraction, it’s punishment. part of my probation is going to this fucking cult and getting my papers stamped. that’s a choice?
whoever said shit about Francis Moraes should fuck off and die. Francis is brilliant and he is so right. If you have a choice between ‘treatment’ in the 12 steps and prison, do the time, it will be less damaging.
if you want to do the steps do them. it is not right that this fucking sick bullshit is accepted by any medical establishment as treatment for anything.
.g
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:50:41 -0800 Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
I got distracted then found them just now 🙂
I must say that this isn’t to hassle anyone, but for some reason
I
responded very much to what Brendan said, which is that Patrick
has a entire spiritual path based on “go fuck yourself” which is
not true.
I watch what he does and he is all over the place with the
treatment pimps, there are some articles where I’m almost quoting
directly, but not exactly and it’s “every single day I’m clean is
a great big fuck you to every piece of shit that ever got in my
face and told me I could not do it this way” and then I read the
addiction series which was most excellent bro and he has a entire
12 step article and how to make it work with ibogaine written with
Dave Hunter who I think was working the steps or still is, because
he wanted to present that it doesn’t work for him and works for
a
lot of people.
I think that very worthy and give much credit because I can almost
see him writing it “something reasonable and intelligent” the
fucking treatment pimps “the 12 steps can work for some people
because” kill the fucking treatment pimps “what the 12 steps
really are” is a lot of shit. and I’m not sure if I want to laugh
or say right on bro.
The reason this hits home for me so hard is because I experienced
all of that too. I was psychologically abused by the recovery
salespeople who fucked mucho dollars not from me but from my
insurance companies and I never got well until I got away from
them too. I’m not a alpha male or real aggressive so what I have
from all of that is a bad feeling inside which hurts. With
Patrick I think that turns to rage in about a second, I watch
Brett do that too.
And if I am honest about what I feel, what I feel is right on bro,
right fucking on! Speak the truth about addiction treatment and
addictionology, because there are so many of us who have suffered
so much at the hands of these fools who are supposedly helping?
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] One more from Rick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:58:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And here is one more from Rick.
Time to go ride my bike and enjoy the end of the day.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Rick Venglarcik wrote :
Hey…go easy on us “treatment pimps.” I like the disease
model…insofar as we’re talking about neurological changes, learning
(neurochemical encoding), up-regulation of Dopamine sensitivity, etc. I
don’t buy into the “stuck with this for life” crap. I know plenty of
people who are cured, who were straigh out banging dope every day in the
sixties and seventies. They changed. They no longer have cravings, any
problems with relapse, nor do they go to “the rooms.” Some people will
respond better to the “disease” model. Others will not. Whatever it is
that enables your biological material to re-adapt, and for the required
neurophysiological changes to take place…is what the answer is.
Unfortunately, most “treatment pimps” (60%) are former users who “found
the one true God” of AA or NA. It worked for them, and the thinking
goes just as Patrick indicated…I was once one of you…everyone is
basically like me (or should be)…so you need to meet my god as well.
It’s not so much that they “know everything about nothing,” but that
they know what worked for them and they tend to be as rigid in their
thinking as a new convert to the holy faith of whatever it is that geeks
them up. The basis of their reality is in their personality…most
often the SJ, the Sensing Judger…these are your box-thinking grunts,
who will excel with programs of rigid structure. Whichever approach
works is probably doing the same sorst of things neurologically.
…just a few words to let you know there really are some half-way
decent treatment pimps out there. They’re hard to find. Too often, it
all boils down to playing cops and robbers.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
__________________________________________________________
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] One more from Patrick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:57:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This is the one I was talking about, excuse me, it is hard to find anything, this list generates a huge amount of email 🙂
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Patrick K. Kroupa wrote :
On [Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 05:03:07PM -0400], [Rick Venglarcik] wrote:
| Erica,
| Coming from the “treatment pimp” perspective, there isn’t much to
| add. Recovery is work. Increase your baseline Dopamine and Serotonin
| levels, learn to extinguish conditioned responses, and relocate to a
| completely new environment, if possible (start out on a brand new
| adventure). Develop new, healthier addictions (also known as habits),
| and do whatever you find that works for you. The 12-steps work for some
| people. So does Church. Or Synagogue. Or a “New Age” commune. Try SMART.
| Learn stress coping skills and activities (EXERCISE…to release
| endorphins and serotonin). Most “programs” are somewhat arbitrary and
| filled with dogma…but many people will require such an approach. Take
| what you NEED, and what WORKS FOR YOU. If you are of a mindset that you
Rick,
I’m very sorry to tell you this, but alas, you do NOT qualify for the
dented gold star of Treatment Pimp. I’m afraid you’re one of the
exceptions.
As far as treatment and the 12-step material goes; I have a negative
reaction to all of it, which is mostly emotional. When I write shit, I
usually try to at least partially balance it out in some way, in the
addiction series, I co-wrote a piece with Dave, who was at the time,
working the steps; and still might be, I dunno ‘zactly.
The 12-steps are extremely old, eastern concepts for dismantling ego,
re-written specifically for drug-dependant individuals who are acclimated
to western culture.
That’s the steps. Where people in thA ro0mZ have taken all this; tends to
be way the fuck out there.
As far as both the steps and treatment goes, in my personal observations
and experiences, I have seen both work out for people. It just depends on
the person.
There is no one answer that is correct for everyone. And for some people
who would NEVER break the cycle of drug-dependance using the standard
treatment and stepwork paradigms — such as, fer instance, ME — I find it
absolutely fucking disgusting that an entire industry thrives on selling
this bullshit as the ONLY way that works.
That just ain’t true. Stating this is at best, ignorance. At worst;
total fucking hypocrisy. And the bottom line is: IT KILLS PEOPLE who
don’t have the opportunity to break out of that, and find their own truth.
Having been at the receiving end of this shit, I uhm, have some problems
with the whole entire scenario.
In closing, I do not believe that treatment is always inappropriate and
the stepwork completely ineffective. There are a lotta people with a
variety of reasons for entering treatment, that have more to do with legal
issues, and what others want from them; who DO make progress in spite of
themselves, when dumped into paradigms that would absolutely not work for
others.
Statistics and studies are… WhateverTheFuck. You can spin the data in
any direction you want, to support any theory imaginable. From what I’ve
personally seen: sumtimes shit works out, sumtimes it don’t. <shrug>
There are no absolutes, pro or con.
Pretty much I agree with what Paul said; different things, for different
people, at different times. The only single variable which is NOT
interchangeable is that YOU *must* do the work; whatever it happens to be.
Patrick
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Reposting Rick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:53:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reposting Rick
On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Rick Venglarcik wrote :
Erica,
Coming from the “treatment pimp” perspective, there isn’t much to
add. Recovery is work. Increase your baseline Dopamine and Serotonin
levels, learn to extinguish conditioned responses, and relocate to a
completely new environment, if possible (start out on a brand new
adventure). Develop new, healthier addictions (also known as habits),
and do whatever you find that works for you. The 12-steps work for some
people. So does Church. Or Synagogue. Or a “New Age” commune. Try SMART.
Learn stress coping skills and activities (EXERCISE…to release
endorphins and serotonin). Most “programs” are somewhat arbitrary and
filled with dogma…but many people will require such an approach. Take
what you NEED, and what WORKS FOR YOU. If you are of a mindset that you
don’t “buy in to,” someone telling you THIS IS THE WAY, THE ONLY
WAY…WALK YE IN IT. bUT IF YOU ARE OF THAT MINDSET…WALK YE IN IT.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
>>> randyhencken@hotmail.com 10/07/02 01:52PM >>>
Erica,
Congratulations on your preparation for a big change in your life. Hear
this: It is not going to be easy. Ibogaine is the shit for opiate
dependence and you are going to get off your habit without most of the
nastiness and with dignity. What happens next is what is difficult.
Don’t
expect that you instantly won’t want to dope just because you had this
crazy
trip on iboga. You are going to have to work on yourself and be
vigilant
against picking up again. I watch a lot of people go through this
treatment. The ones who succeed take a realistic approach. The ones
who
fall back into using expect that being clean, once they detox, is going
to
be easy. wrong. Doing dope is easy.
The others have giving you some good advice. Check out SMART recovery
it is
a great program that is designed to be tailored to the individual. It
is not
a life long commitment either. The goal is you use their program for 3
months to a year or so and then you put addiction behind you. Smart
recovery is a not-for-profit entity as opposed to Rational Recovery.
RR has
a few great ideas and you can find them in Jack Trimpey’s “the small
book”.
But asides from that I wouldn’t shell out too much money in RR’s
direction
when you can gain equally good coaching through smart.
And it’s true that 12-steps are garbage. They have been in existence
for
over 67 years and there has never been one scientific study that has
proven
their effectiveness. 12-steps are arbitrary and filled with dogma.
You are
probably a bright young women who can figure most things out for
yourself.
Don’t give up thinking just because your in recovery,instead learn how
to be
in charge of your own head.
Don’t bother entering a residential treatment center either. The
National
Institute on Drug Abuse found that they are truly unnecessary and that
is
why outpatient treatment is on the rise.
I really could go on and on about this subject, because I’m very
involved in
the recovery process. But I don’t want to be overwhelming. Visit the
Smart
web page www.smartrecovery.org
Go to http://ibogaine-therapy.net/testimonials.htm and read my
testimonial
it will give you a good insight into my perspective on ibogaine and
life
there after.
You can do it! Go get it!
Randy H.
>From: “Erica Theissen” <ericat@subdimension.com>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: [ibogaine] what happens right after ibogaine?
>Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 08:00:32 -1000
>
>Hi I’ve been reading this list for a while and think this is
>a great place.
>
>I’m 25 and I’ve been doing heroin since I was 18 and lately
>mostly oxy’s. I will be doing ibogaine in a month and I have
>some questions for anyone who can answer please.
>
>I have never done any drug treatment or the aftercare before
>but reading what’s online in places and in this group nearly
>all of you have gone through some of that or a lot of that,
>but mostly none of you are doing it now to stay clean and
>had bad experiences with it.
>
>I was wondering what some of you do or did to stay clean
>right after ibogaine? Should I expect it to be very hard or
>does the desire to stop using just go away? I’ve read about
>the last month and a half of this list and I’ve read
>Patrick’s articles and writings which are like wow, do you
>want to get some coffee and talk, are you single? 😉 What I
>mean is you’re a really smart weirdo who’s cute and wow can
>you write! I read some of it and it’s you’re writing a acid
>trip, how the f**k do you do that? And where do I get
>whatever drugs you’ve done! 😉
>
>But what I mean is I’m interested and attracted by what you
>are and what you say but at the same time I have to be real
>and admit I have not the slightest idea what you’re talking
>about most of the time.
>
>I know some of you here are doing all that too but I’m much
>more interested in knowing what happens a week after
>ibogaine? a month? I’ve read enough here to believe it works
>and cleans you up but then what do I do? I hate the groups,
>are there any different or better groups or anything.
>
>What I mean to say is some of you have progressed a long way
>from being on heroin and gone to much different places but
>what were all of you who made it and are clean years later,
>doing a week after you got off heroin and did ibogaine! And
>a month after. That exactly is my question.
>
>Thank you!
>
>erica
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] reposting Patrick
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:50:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I got distracted then found them just now 🙂
I must say that this isn’t to hassle anyone, but for some reason I responded very much to what Brendan said, which is that Patrick has a entire spiritual path based on “go fuck yourself” which is not true.
I watch what he does and he is all over the place with the treatment pimps, there are some articles where I’m almost quoting directly, but not exactly and it’s “every single day I’m clean is a great big fuck you to every piece of shit that ever got in my face and told me I could not do it this way” and then I read the addiction series which was most excellent bro and he has a entire 12 step article and how to make it work with ibogaine written with Dave Hunter who I think was working the steps or still is, because he wanted to present that it doesn’t work for him and works for a lot of people.
I think that very worthy and give much credit because I can almost see him writing it “something reasonable and intelligent” the fucking treatment pimps “the 12 steps can work for some people because” kill the fucking treatment pimps “what the 12 steps really are” is a lot of shit. and I’m not sure if I want to laugh or say right on bro.
The reason this hits home for me so hard is because I experienced all of that too. I was psychologically abused by the recovery salespeople who fucked mucho dollars not from me but from my insurance companies and I never got well until I got away from them too. I’m not a alpha male or real aggressive so what I have from all of that is a bad feeling inside which hurts. With Patrick I think that turns to rage in about a second, I watch Brett do that too.
And if I am honest about what I feel, what I feel is right on bro, right fucking on! Speak the truth about addiction treatment and addictionology, because there are so many of us who have suffered so much at the hands of these fools who are supposedly helping?
I’m reposting Patrick and Rick’s messages, because the two of them always have good conversations, because they are like mucho similar people who are at opposite ends of treating people and having been treated, but it is obvious they have respect for each other so conversation takes place. That does not happen often.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 Patrick K. Kroupa wrote :
<You too…? I always try to chill, and then it BURSTS OUT again.>
Hum . . . How do I say this… Thinking . . . Okay, try to think of most
addictionologists as a Christian Missionary Zealots who run around trying
to convert the natives to the one true path, and sells trinkets and
things. They are COMPLETELY FILLED with sumthin’ or another; and want to
spread it around.
Fortunately, if you actually have belief and faith, in almost anything;
it’s not contagious. It’s just very confusing… As to why anyone would
want to fill their head with all that.
And really that’s okay, because there’s nothing wrong with Christianity.
The point at which it becomes a problem is when people attempt to inflict
this shit on you and CasT out tha Dem0nZ! Even if it kills you. Or, you
made friends with your demons, because an entire pantheon spins through
your headspace.
Over the course of trying to get unsprung and move out of drug-dependence,
many of us have had these people arrive with all this noise, deliver
lectures such as, “you must do it this way, or you will die!” And then
attempt to indoctrinate you into their belief system no matter what.
There’s nothing wrong with the 12-steps. There’s nothing wrong with the
Flat Earth Society either; it just doesn’t suit my needs. And if my
reason for even being in contact with these people was seeking help for
that problem I usta have with bangin’ up dope. It’s not very funny
anymore.
Those of us who have managed to break the cycle and crawl out of hell on
our own, and were exposed to these idiots in our faces at one point or
another; tend to have a violent psychotic reaction to hearing their
cliches, slogans, and affirmations. A reaction that would be lacking in
someone who has not suffered emotional abuse from them.
Addictionologists tend to be experts at this little fantasy world they
live in; which granted is JUST FINE, if you want to join them there. A
program of attraction not promotion. Take what you find useful and leave
the rest… Except, the way things work out, it’s more of a program of
coercion and harassment. And being dumped into this cult is what passes
for “drug treatment.”
Most “drug treatment professionals” — by which I mean to say Treatment
Pimps — I’ve been in contact with don’t know a fucking thing about
addiction, and are unwilling to listen or learn, because they already know
everything about nothing; and their entire persona, identity, and means of
leeching cash offa drug dependent individuals, revolves around selling the
completely iatrogenic “mysterious disease” of addiction. Anything that
conflicts with this belief system is perceived as threatening.
The exceptions to that rule tend to, uhm, have a life. By which I mean
some sort of happiness, peace, contentment; as opposed to the rest who
have pretty much set fire to most of that repeatedly, and are left with…
a mysterious disease; which they want to sell you.
And okay, I understand, you’re acting this way because basically, your
life sucks. Bummer n’ all, but I’m already an expert at completely
fucking up my life; I don’t really need any help with that.
Additionology Today, the complete summary: I used to smoke crack or bang
dope — I will now spend at least 20 minutes telling war stories of how
fucked up I used to be, and the depths I sunk to in my pursuit of drugs —
and then I joined a cult. You can too. The End. That’ll be $450
dollars. Try to catch some meetings and share, you’ll feel better.
That’s pretty much it. Toss in, “I used to be just like you,” and/or “I
understand completely,” with extra-bonus points thrown in for faking
sincerity and giving a good delivery.
And this is NOT true of everybody. It’s just that for every exception,
there are 1001 sub-normal, low IQ idiots, who inflict psychological
damages on people as part of their control and ego-trip. None of this
shit has anything whatsoever to do with “helping” anyone. Although they
DO help some people. In the process of helping some, they do damage to at
least as many, by filling their heads with nonsense about how their
inability to get in tune with this cult, has anything whatsoever to do
with stepping out of drug-dependence.
Whatever, I’m done venting. For now anyway.
As far as SMART goes, I dunno, I’ve never done it. But many people appear
to have extremely positive things to say about it, and scanning their web
site, I don’t see any mention of an imaginary disease, mysterious forces
beyond human comprehension, or Joining a Cult 101 materials; so check it
out if ya don’t like the 12-step noise.
Patrick
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From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:42:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Art Hernandez wrote:
I have a BS in psychology (please no jokes and then
went to a MS in engineering and what I find
fascinating about you isn’t so much that you’re a
talented person, but that you somehow move across
disciplines and move from left brain oriented to right
brain oriented??? Do you control that or does that
just happen in some way? That isn’t manic depression,
ehehe. seems to be a more common trend than i had thought….i have a BA
in psychology and i work in IT… =)
==========================================================================
| |
| League of Surrealist Discord – www.lsdrecords.net |
| |
| ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds… |
————————————————————————–
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:34:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
you mean like a diet pill?
it wouldn’t surprise me if it had some effect on weight, its rare that
people feel like eating during treatment…
I think that if effective it would be by breaking the habit of
overeating, if it was on the order of an addiction (i.e. a coping
mechanism for something that could be dealt with in a healthier
way). I believe that people have reported positive changes along
these lines, but don’t remember any specific reports.
Bill Ross
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 17, 2002 at 6:05:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Alison Senepart wrote:
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
you mean like a diet pill?
it wouldn’t surprise me if it had some effect on weight, its rare that
people feel like eating during treatment…
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 17, 2002 at 5:59:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Brendan, this is not in any way to attack you or anything. I’m going to repost 3 messages about that whole series of conversations, one is Patrick’s, one is Rick’s, one is what I replied. It was the discussion about treatment pimps about a month back maybe a little longer. I can’t find my own messages to the list since the way I am set up it doesn’t save the same message twice, so I only have my original and then Patrick and Rick’s exact messages, which I will repost.
What I mean is my message doesn’t have the ibogaine list headers on it and I am cutting and pasting it into this window, I don’t want to confuse anyone anymore then I just did 😉
Brendan what I’m curious about is what exactly is your deal. I thought at first you were one of the hacker kids who started reading this list from fd or vox and maybe you are that too. You post messages that I know you don’t understand that or maybe I am being over sensitive and it is the internet and for the internet you are acting very normal, but bro what I mean to say to you is you write things that are personal attacks on people and they are nearly always unprovoked and petty. They don’t say anything bro, except you’re mad so you’re going to say something nasty about people who you do not even know.
Then you post kind messages and are helpful to people, maybe in little ways, but if you were always angry you wouldn’t do that.
I’m not outing you and you can ignore me or reply in private, but what is your deal bro? Why are you here, what’s your problem, or what are you trying to solve?
Peace out,
Curtis
—repost of my previous message—
I haven’t been here longer then a few months and I only found
ibogaine through this place and did it in the real recent past and
it made a big difference. But I got clean without it.
Patrick is somebody different. He’s really smart and talented and
everything and we’re all here because of Mindvox but it is what
Rick said in the reply, that’s his journey it may not be exactly
yours and it wasn’t mine. I some of the time try to think what it
must feel like not even drug addiction but to have the secret
service and fbi chasing me around since birth or something and no
matter how bad you think you are if you’ve got that many people
trying to throw you in prison and you’re a kid whose 18 or 20 or
something that has to do a lot of things to your head. None of
them too good.
I experience what he writes about too in different ways but mine
are not nearly as violent or intense in any direction bad or good
and I don’t see any of the lights or the eyes or those things. I
think mostly Dave sees that too and goes there but most people do
not. I have more like what Rick has which are moments that I would
say are so sublime bro. And I’m learning to appreciate them.
I tried to get clean so many times, I did the treatment pimps too
and detox and rehab and everything and I worked for computer
companies and had insurance so all I ever saw were these big
numbers going across on my policy but they were huge. And it was
all for nothing. I didn’t start to get better until I got away
from both drugs and drug treatment.
I’ve got nearly 2 years clean now, I did ibogaine about 2 months
ago and will probably do it again because it helps so much bro.
But what works for me is nature, I love the mountains I like
getting away from all the things that stress me. I don’t do any 12
step stuff either, except once in a while. Because the problem I
have is I don’t know where to go to party anymore. I don’t go to
bars or clubs because for me that would make me relapse so fast.
So what do I do? Going to a meeting is the one place I can arrive
and it’s like I’m king of the hill because I have 2 years and
there is always some hottie who needs to be saved.
Who am I to say no? 🙂
Peace out,
Curtis
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote :
I’m sorry about your son, being smart doesn’t help. All I’ve noticed is that it makes things harder, if you’re stupid you believe all that bullshit they try to shove down your throat a lot faster. Unfortunately I’ve also noticed that telling them they’re stupid and then doing my own thing has never helped either. The only person I know who has ever made that work is Patrick. He’s managed to turn ‘go fuck yourself’ into an entire spiritual path.
There are alot of others on here who say things that are interesting but I don’t know how many of them have ever been addicted to anything in the first place, how many of them are clean right now and I don’t mean doing entheogens or smoking pot and I don’t know how useful their advice is to anybody else.
I read things that some people say and then months later its oh I’ve never done ibogaine in the first place, I still have a habit, or I’m some crazy person who writes things to this list because it’s full of other crazy people. Or they did ibogaine just to do it and never were addicted to anything to begin with. Hard to say who to listen to.
MindVox needs to officially recognize Day Brown. His writings have become a important part of my day. Patrick may be all that, but Day Brown is the only philosopher who lives in a matriarchal drug cult in the Ozarks that I’ve ever seen before. I think that needs to be recognized. Day Brown is very special.
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Out of Action- chapter 14 of Something in the Way
Date: November 17, 2002 at 5:46:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Preston that was truly excellent. Thanks for posting that, I can relate in too many ways. I’ve never taken the art of self destruction to the levels that you and Patrick did, but I think it’s been mentioned that all people whose names begin with the letter “P” and are seven letters long, are in a different world that exists right next to ours, only different 🙂
I know both of you are probably very busy but when you posted the videogame review excerpt from HT, I must say that my experience in getting away from heroin was very close to what you and Patrick again both agreed about. Which is that videogames help a lot to get take your mind off things. I did the same, every time I felt like I would go insane I just started to play another game and in a couple of minutes my mind was occupied elsewhere. Videogames and music were both very important for me when I was going through all those months when I felt like I was going to go crazy, jumping out of my skin wasn’t even the start of it bro, those were very bad times.
I was going to mention that to Marc when he posted how he doesn’t want his patients playing videogames at his iboga house, but decided not to at the time because he was obviously going through a very tough time with his son bailing for the street somewhere. So I’m mentioning it now. Videogames are a really big help in the beginning. Sure you waste your time and may overdo it, but bro you are not doing heroin while you are so occupied.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 preston peet wrote :
Greetings and salutations all.
I’ve posted yet another chapter from my book “Something in the Way” at DrugWar.com, full of sketches and photos, even a couple of pictures from way back when of Thomas in the throes of hard core drug abuse.
If anyone would care to introduce me to an agent who would like to help me sell this book and make us both some money so I can continue writing even more stuff, but in slightly more comfortable settings, please, do not hesitate to let me know.;-)))
Otherwise, take a few minutes to read this chapter, to put any current troubles you may have into perspective, as there’s always someone somewhere in even worse shape or trouble.
(more chapters can be found here at: http://www.drugwar.com/somethingintheway.shtm )
http://www.drugwar.com/sitwoutofaction.shtm
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: something in the way
Date: November 17, 2002 at 2:54:36 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks Bill.
Yes, I’ve come to the realization that including some illustrations really adds to the writing, giving it a whole nuther dimension. Plus, it’s a lot of fun posting the pictures too.
I never cease to be a bit amazed that I could climb so far up from what felt at the time like a hopeless bottomless pit. I was convinced it could never be done, that I would never, ever move beyond this stage.
Ah well, I was wrong.;-)))
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: Bill Ross
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:52 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: something in the way
Great writing, Preston. The photos help to smack it in one’s
face as well.
Bill Ross
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: something in the way
Date: November 17, 2002 at 1:52:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Great writing, Preston. The photos help to smack it in one’s
face as well.
Bill Ross
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Out of Action- chapter 14 of Something in the Way
Date: November 17, 2002 at 1:10:26 PM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Greetings and salutations all.
I’ve posted yet another chapter from my book “Something in the Way” at DrugWar.com, full of sketches and photos, even a couple of pictures from way back when of Thomas in the throes of hard core drug abuse.
If anyone would care to introduce me to an agent who would like to help me sell this book and make us both some money so I can continue writing even more stuff, but in slightly more comfortable settings, please, do not hesitate to let me know.;-)))
Otherwise, take a few minutes to read this chapter, to put any current troubles you may have into perspective, as there’s always someone somewhere in even worse shape or trouble.
(more chapters can be found here at: http://www.drugwar.com/somethingintheway.shtm )
http://www.drugwar.com/sitwoutofaction.shtm
Out of Action
(chapter 14 of “Something in the Way”
by Preston Peet- copyright 2001)
posted at DrugWar.com Nov. 17, 2002
“Damnit, missed.”
“Hey man, you gotta be careful with that shit, you’re gonna wind up with an abscess or something,” Dan says, watching Thomas bend and flex his right arm, rubbing his elbow, trying to get at least some of the drugs into his system….
“Are you crazy?” Thomas is belligerent, insisting he can’t go to the hospital. “I’m out of dope. There’s no way I’m going to sit for hours in the waiting room without any dope. Tell you what. Loan me ten or twenty bucks. I’ll go out, score some stuff to take with me, then I promise, I’ll go.” The fact that his arm looks like an incredibly ugly sausage isn’t enough, nor the intense pain. Only the loaning of drug money, bribing him to save his own arm will work. She looks at him like he’s the crazy one, which of course he is.
(photo)
Thomas in a haze of pain and drugs
She’s really worried about his arm, thinking he is going to loose it. He might appear nuts, but she’s pretty sure it’s the drug abuses and prohibition stresses that’ve made him so. The second time over to her place, he’d brought a guitar he’d bought cheap off another junkie, and had proceeded to play and sing for her. He’d sold it three days later, but still, the thought he might not ever get to play again makes her sad, and determined to get him to the hospital any way she can. There’s no one else who can or will help, not even Thomas himself.
snip-
Read Chapter at above URL
Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
”Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] S.F. plus other conferences
Date: November 17, 2002 at 12:53:44 PM EST
To: julia@sacreddance.org
Cc: ibogaine@mindvox.com, dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Good News: The Dempsey Center forum resulted in articles in the DAILY
CHALLENGE & JAMA, plus new people to work on the Ibogaine Working
Group (meets Thursday 4 to 6 pm at the HRC, 22 w. 27th – 5th fl.).
—————————————————-
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123
Friday nite reception TBA
Saturday@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.
Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm (could be til 1:45 if you need the extra time)
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
$25 in advance, $35 at the door. To send checks, call Nelson for
street address:
———
Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297
@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424
4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa
——–
Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org
@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928
Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM
$60 Euro admission
———
NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!
Friday $60
Saturday $30
——
Italy, Bologna: Around the time of the NYC. conference. Details
being obtained.
—–
Pittsburg, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Madison, Minneapolis:
Late Feb & the first weekend of March:
From: “Brian Mariano” <mariano@ibogainetreatment.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] False positive
Date: November 17, 2002 at 7:03:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi everybody,
a funny thing happened to me in Germany few days ago on my way to Italy. I
got caught at the border with some ibogaine, which is not scheduled over
there but nevertheless it wasnīt pleasant at all. The funny thing is that
the drug test that they used showed that it was a methamphetamine, which was
an obvious “false positive” result to me but not obvious to them. The
officer looked at me and said : “Probleme.GROSSE probleme.”. I told him that
itīs not what they think it is and that if they want they can send it to a
forensic lab. Then they used another test set and this time it didnīt show
any presence of the drug and eventually they let me go. I suppose that I
wouldnīt have got caught if I wouldnīt have carried through the border two
slovak hitch-hikers. An italian passport with two slovak passports must have
been a suspicious combination. The slovaks were less lucky.They let them get
completely naked and searched also their ass hole if they indeed werenīt
smuggling anything. Poor guys.
On another occasion a shipment got stopped and showed a false positive for
opiates. I got it back to me a month later after forensic test had been
done, which showed that it was ibogaine with trace amounts of ibogamine.
The message is the following:
If anything like this would happen to any of you (outside the US), donīt
worry, the test sets are not accurate at all and the “misunderstanding” will
get eventually settled.
Brian
From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] does anyone know who does this?
Date: November 17, 2002 at 1:18:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Godsmack, the song is called Voodoo.
http://godsmack.com/
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 22:08:33 -0800 Richard Davis <rjd1966@lycos.com> wrote:
sorry to post this question here but I thought someone might know
and Patrick did the same thing across half the lists on Mindvox,
of course mindvox is his but don’t hate me.
I was at a club tonight and walking out with my wife and there is
song I have no idea who it is by or who does it or where I would
ask so I thought I’d ask here, it goes “I’m not the one, I’m so
far away, when I feel the snake bite into my veins, never did I
want to be here again and I don’t remember why I came” it’s very
slow and has tribal drums but I think it’s some kind of alternative
or heavy metal mixture. Does anyone know what this is?
sorry again to post this here
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] does anyone know who does this?
Date: November 17, 2002 at 1:08:33 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
sorry to post this question here but I thought someone might know and Patrick did the same thing across half the lists on Mindvox, of course mindvox is his but don’t hate me.
I was at a club tonight and walking out with my wife and there is song I have no idea who it is by or who does it or where I would ask so I thought I’d ask here, it goes “I’m not the one, I’m so far away, when I feel the snake bite into my veins, never did I want to be here again and I don’t remember why I came” it’s very slow and has tribal drums but I think it’s some kind of alternative or heavy metal mixture. Does anyone know what this is?
sorry again to post this here
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] it keeps getting better and better
Date: November 17, 2002 at 12:26:16 AM EST
To: vox@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
House votes life sentences for hackers
By Declan McCullagh
Special to ZDNet News
November 14, 2002, 4:45 AM PT
URL: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-965779.html
WASHINGTON–A last-minute addition to a proposal for a Department of
Homeland Security could punish malicious computer hackers with life in
prison.
The U.S. House of Representatives on Wednesday evening voted 299 to 121
to approve the bill, which would reshape large portions of the federal
bureaucracy into a new department combining parts of 22 existing
federal agencies, including the Secret Service, the Coast Guard, and
the FBI’s National Infrastructure Protection Center.
During closed-door negotiations before the debate began, the House
Republican leadership inserted the 16-page Cyber Security Enhancement
Act (CSEA) into the Homeland Security bill. CSEA expands the ability of
police to conduct Internet or telephone eavesdropping without first
obtaining a court order, and offers Internet providers more latitude to
disclose information to police.
In July, the full House approved CSEA by a 385-to-3 vote, but it died
in the Senate. By inserting CSEA into the Homeland Security bill, the
measure’s backers are hoping for a second chance before Congress
adjourns for the holidays.
“Defending against terrorists who can strike any time with any method
requires a change in our approach to the problem,” CSEA sponsor Rep.
Lamar Smith said in a statement. “We need a new government structure
with a clear focus and clear mission to protect Americans and increase
public safety. The new Department of Homeland Security will fulfill
that vital role.”
Earlier this year, Smith said: “Until we secure our
cyberinfrastructure, a few keystrokes and an Internet connection is all
one needs to disable the economy and endanger lives. A mouse can be
just as dangerous as a bullet or a bomb.” Smith heads a subcommittee on
crime, which held hearings that drew endorsements of CSEA from a top
Justice Department official and executives from Microsoft and WorldCom.
Citing privacy concerns, civil liberties groups have objected to
portions of CSEA.
“There are a lot of different things to be concerned about, but
preserving Fourth Amendment and wiretap standards continues to be a
critical test of Congress’ commitment of civil liberties,” Marc
Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said
Wednesday.
Rotenberg said that CSEA makes “ISPs more closely aligned with law
enforcement interests than customer confidentiality interests. It may
not be surprising, but it’s not good news.”
Democratic members of Congress said during Wednesday evening’s floor
debate that the Department of Homeland Security bill had been rushed to
the floor without everyone having a chance to read it. They did not
complain specifically about CSEA, which has already been approved
near-unanimously by the House.
“We were given a massive new bill this morning that is being rushed
through the House with no opportunity for debate,” said Rep. Henry
Waxman, D-Calif. “I doubt more than 10 people in Congress know (what’s)
in the bill.”
House Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-Texas, replied by saying: “There
seems to be a concern that the bill is being rushed to the floor…This
was not rushed to the floor. We worked hard on it. We worked together
on it.”
What CSEA does
If approved by the Senate and signed by the president, who has called
for a Department of Homeland Security, the law would:
Promise up to life terms for computer intrusions that “recklessly”
put others’ lives at risk. A committee report accompanying the
legislation predicts: “A terrorist or criminal cyberattack could
further harm our economy and critical infrastructure. It is imperative
that the penalties and law enforcement capabilities are adequate to
prevent and deter such attacks.”
Permit limited surveillance without a court order when there is an
“ongoing attack” on an Internet-connected computer or “an immediate
threat to a national security interest.” That kind of surveillance
would, however, be limited to obtaining a suspect’s telephone number,
IP address, URLs or e-mail header information–not the contents of
online communications or telephone calls. Under federal law, such taps
can take place when there’s a threat of “serious bodily injury to any
person” or activity involving organized crime.
Change current law, which says it’s illegal for an Internet provider
to “knowingly divulge” what users do except in some specific
circumstances, such as when it’s troubleshooting glitches, receiving a
court order or tipping off police that a crime is in progress. CSEA
expands that list to include when “an emergency involving danger of
death or serious physical injury to any person requires disclosure of
the information without delay.”
Specify that an existing ban on the “advertisement” of any device
that is used primarily for surreptitious electronic surveillance
applies to online ads. The prohibition now covers only a “newspaper,
magazine, handbill or other publication.”
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 16, 2002 at 11:54:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
dude, I feel bad for Art, least of which he just wrote that whole huge
thing to the entire list not private email.
Day Brown is tolerable when left to himself, when that born again
christian guy neuroskull and him all talk at once, I feel like smashing
my computer. I don’t need 50 mile long pieces of email about obscure
theology from the two of them. Don’t start them up again. Margeruite is
cool, she’s from the siddha yoga ashram and the one who posted photos
of herself with Kurt Vonnegut wearing the fuck bush button and holding
her sign at the UN protest.
What’s not that funny is the homeland security act. Welcome to 1984.
.:vector:.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28107.html
US gov’s ‘ultimate database’ run by a felon
By Thomas C Greene in Washington
Posted: 14/11/2002 at 20:22 GMT
We all know that truth is stranger than fiction, and here we have an
apparently real item straight from the realm of Tom Clancy. Imagine a
huge, absolutely huge, central database containing both the official
and commercial data of every single citizen, run by the US military
ostensibly for anti-terror and Homeland Security purposes, and all of
it under the direction of a convicted felon.
Well the database is in development and coming soon, according to the
New York Times; and the felon who will run it is disgraced Reagan
administration liar, dirty-trickster and cover-uper Admiral John M.
Poindexter, who Dubya has taken out of mothballs to keep us all safe
from dreadful evildoers.
Poindexter got caught up in a little Federal crime spree called
Iran-Contra a decade ago, stood trial and was convicted, but managed to
escape responsibility on an odd technicality.
As told succinctly by FAS.org, Poindexter was “Indicted March 16, 1988,
on seven felony charges. After standing trial on five charges,
Poindexter was found guilty April 7, 1990, on all counts: conspiracy
(obstruction of inquiries and proceedings, false statements,
falsification, destruction and removal of documents); two counts of
obstruction of Congress and two counts of false statements.
District Judge Harold H. Greene sentenced Poindexter June 11, 1990, to
six months in prison on each count, to be served concurrently. A
three-judge appeals panel on November 15, 1991, reversed the
convictions on the ground that Poindexter’s immunized testimony may
have influenced the trial testimony of witnesses. The Supreme Court on
December 7, 1992, declined to review the case. In 1993, the indictment
was dismissed on the motion of Independent Counsel.”
Now he’s in charge of the newly-invented Information Awareness Office,
a part of that mixed bag of good and bad, the US Defense Advanced
Research Projects Agency (DARPA), and he’s got his eye on basically
every scrap of data about every single citizen. The system Poindy is
preparing to unleash on us “will provide intelligence analysts and law
enforcement officials with instant access to information from Internet
mail and calling records to credit card and banking transactions and
travel documents, without a search warrant,” the NYT article says.
And he’s in no way embarrassed by his role ensuring that the US
military and federal law enforcement and intelligence spooks can quite
conveniently spy on the populace. He’s said openly that the US
government “needs to ‘break down the stovepipes’ that separate
commercial and government databases,” the article says.
Poindexter joins a slew of Reagan-era retreads and Iran-Contra alumni
now operating brazenly in Dubya’s bureaucracy. No doubt he feels quite
comfortable among such familiar company, though I doubt I could say the
same for the rest of us. Ū
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
I’m sorry about your son, being smart doesn’t help. All I’ve noticed
is that it makes things harder, if you’re stupid you believe all that
bullshit they try to shove down your throat a lot faster.
Unfortunately I’ve also noticed that telling them they’re stupid and
then doing my own thing has never helped either. The only person I
know who has ever made that work is Patrick. He’s managed to turn ‘go
fuck yourself’ into an entire spiritual path.
There are alot of others on here who say things that are interesting
but I don’t know how many of them have ever been addicted to anything
in the first place, how many of them are clean right now and I don’t
mean doing entheogens or smoking pot and I don’t know how useful
their advice is to anybody else.
I read things that some people say and then months later its oh I’ve
never done ibogaine in the first place, I still have a habit, or I’m
some crazy person who writes things to this list because it’s full of
other crazy people. Or they did ibogaine just to do it and never were
addicted to anything to begin with. Hard to say who to listen to.
MindVox needs to officially recognize Day Brown. His writings have
become a important part of my day. Patrick may be all that, but Day
Brown is the only philosopher who lives in a matriarchal drug cult in
the Ozarks that I’ve ever seen before. I think that needs to be
recognized. Day Brown is very special.
__________________________________________________
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From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: [ibogaine] To Art
Date: November 16, 2002 at 11:23:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m sorry about your son, being smart doesn’t help. All I’ve noticed is that it makes things harder, if you’re stupid you believe all that bullshit they try to shove down your throat a lot faster. Unfortunately I’ve also noticed that telling them they’re stupid and then doing my own thing has never helped either. The only person I know who has ever made that work is Patrick. He’s managed to turn ‘go fuck yourself’ into an entire spiritual path.
There are alot of others on here who say things that are interesting but I don’t know how many of them have ever been addicted to anything in the first place, how many of them are clean right now and I don’t mean doing entheogens or smoking pot and I don’t know how useful their advice is to anybody else.
I read things that some people say and then months later its oh I’ve never done ibogaine in the first place, I still have a habit, or I’m some crazy person who writes things to this list because it’s full of other crazy people. Or they did ibogaine just to do it and never were addicted to anything to begin with. Hard to say who to listen to.
MindVox needs to officially recognize Day Brown. His writings have become a important part of my day. Patrick may be all that, but Day Brown is the only philosopher who lives in a matriarchal drug cult in the Ozarks that I’ve ever seen before. I think that needs to be recognized. Day Brown is very special.
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:45:43 -0700 Day Brown <daybrown@ozarkisp.net> wrote:
Marguerite wrote:
At 12:26 AM 10/22/02 -0500, you wrote:
Vigilius Haufniensis wrote:
it is my understanding that buddhism was the result of a reformation
of
hinduism shortly before the time mentioned here.
That sounds like the conventional view; I do not think so. The
recent data that China received Buddhism from the Tocharians
is a
clue that it arose, not in India, but on the Silk Road, where
the
traditions of many cultures were available for analysis.
Perhaps you are talking about Buddhism as it is practiced in China?
Perhaps, but not limited to.
Buddist scripture and history have been doctored just as the Levantine
scripture and History has. Things have been put in the mouth of
Jesus
for political and social agendas, and they have been put in the
mouth of
the Buddha for the same reasons.
So, trying to sort out the original sources for various sections
of text
is fraght with large ambiguities. I attack the question from the
other
end, and ask what place on the planet had the greatest exposure
to other
cultures and the ideas current in them? And the answer I get is
the the
merchants on the Silk Road, who like interstate truckers now, developed
their own amalgam of other cultures.
I find it noteworthy that saffron dyed clerical robes, shaven heads
with
fetlocks on boy monks, the Lotus icon, and eidetic patterns of artwork,
are all seen in the Minoan
frescos 3500+ years ago. Knossus has a room they call ‘The meditation
hall’, ie, an ashram.
Another funny thing about the Minoans, was that they had a _mercantile_
empire, trading from the Black sea to the Egypt, from the Levant
to
Malta. So- as at Asklar, they had exposure to a rich diversity of
religious tradition. It is only natural for them to engage in some
effort at synthesis, and to realize how common altered states of
consciousness were across all of these early religious traditions.
The earliest caucasian mummies found in NW china are 4000 years
old; so
there was a period in the 2nd mil BCE when merchants were able to
travel
from China to India and to Minoan Troy, with lots of time to talk
about
what they’d seen and heard in these places. The Buddha travels from
place to place on roads that were already in use; and whether all
the
ideas he had were innately his, or a synthesis of those he ran into,
is
a damn moot point. But, wherever the texts are found, as we see
in the
Levantine tradition, there are attempts by various locations to
claim to
be the venues of important events. I take the claims by India with
a
grain of salt on that account.
The literary traditions of China, India, and the Levant remained
intact;
those on the Silk Road did not, mostly because the greed, arrogance,
and
ineptitude of the Sakyas (now known as warlords) of Central Asia
killed
the goose that laid the golden egg, trade… with bribes and robbery.
But central Asia is the next big thing in archaeology. It usta be
that
one needed stone monuments in order to have anything to study. But
now,
they realize that if you look at a satellite infra red, you can
see the
ancient routes. And if you fly over them closer, you can see the
circles
of rocks on the ground. The merchants used rocks to hold down the
edges
of their tents in the desert wind. When they pull their tents, they
leave the circles of rocks for the next guy who camps there.
And when you go there, you find potsherds and stuff. The Prussians
collected 4000 pages of ancient text left at desert shrines as
offerings. You can look at them online at the university of frankfurt.
There is just an incredible amount of stuff out there, preserved
by the
arid/alkaline conditions, and now that the political situation is
settling down, new expeditions are being organized. I can hardly
wait.
Marija Gimbutas, ‘The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe’, shows several
figurines in postures we recognize as ‘mediation’. They’re 7000
years
old. Some of the ‘Buddhist’ traditions go waaaaaay back.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: Art Hernandez <arthernandez1999@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 9:37:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick, I’ve too sent you mail at least twice and
never receive any replies. It wasn’t sent to kiss up
to you or waste your time, I understand you’re very
busy but please reply to me, I will send one more
email after this to the list.
I have a BS in psychology (please no jokes and then
went to a MS in engineering and what I find
fascinating about you isn’t so much that you’re a
talented person, but that you somehow move across
disciplines and move from left brain oriented to right
brain oriented??? Do you control that or does that
just happen in some way? That isn’t manic depression,
which I understand you are too. I’ve met many people
who are gifted at science, writing, speaking, etc but
I’ve never met anyone who moves back and forth through
all that, you’re not writing technical papers, you’re
writing prose that somehow mixes all of that and makes
it connect to people. That’s remarkable. I can read
you and get the same effect as taking LSD.
It took me a long time before I wrote you even once
because you’re someone I don’t know how to approach. I
know you have a very colorful past and have applied
your mind in ways that have upset a lot of people. But
in reading this list for months I’ve never seen you
attack anyone, I think you’re a really good person,
please take a little time to just reply to me.
I have a son, he’s 31 years old now. He finished high
school at 15, he received his BS at 20, he is not like
you but he is very smart. What I have now and have had
for almost 5 years is someone who has to be told that
he smells and needs to take a shower and change his
clothes. He does nothing but more heroin. I am
watching running sores on his arms get bigger and he
doesn’t stop. I don’t know what to do anymore, he has
been to detox so many times, he has been to treatment,
he always leaves treatment, I have taken him to
psychiatrists, counselors, everything. Nothing works.
I don’t know how to help him anymore, looking at him
now you would never believe what he was 5 years ago.
I have noticed that many on this list have high regard
for entheogenic drugs, but I don’t know how or if that
would help because I don’t understand how he can take
LSD, then do crack and heroin all in the same day. I
have done LSD and have great respect and thanks, but
he is not like that.
What do I do with him? I will send him somewhere to do
ibogaine but then what do I do with him? I’ve read
most of what you’re written about addiction and you
say almost the same things that he says, that it’s a
bad joke run my idiots. The problem is I don’t know
where to find anyone as smart as he is, or how to help
him. The difference is you made it, he’s not going to
make it. The best I can hope for right now is that
he’ll go to jail for a little while and that will slow
down the phone call that my son is dead somewhere. I
keep waiting for that.
How do I help him?
I will attend the Seattle conference and would love to
hear you speak, please I will pay for your time if you
will talk with my son, or can do anything to help him.
I don’t know what to do anymore and no matter who I
send him to he tells me they are stupid and they tell
me that he is beyond therapy and don’t know what to do
with him so send him to someone else.
I believe that conventional treatment will not work
for some people, but where do I send him for
unconventional treatment after ibogaine? I’ve even
read about where you went, but I don’t understand that
either. Thamkrabok appears in every newspaper listing
as being a temple that is a front for one of the
largest heroin smuggling operations by the tribe
people in Thailand and reading the latest reports from
the Bangkok post the army and the drug smugglers have
blown up parts of it and are vacating 30,000 people
from the area. Whatever it was, it isn’t there
anymore.
This is like saying you went to a crackhouse to clear
your head after doing ibogaine. I don’t understand how
that could have worked for you. Which is where I
started, I don’t understand how you do what you’ve
done, I don’t understand how to help my son and I
can’t find anyone else who does either.
Please reply to my email.
AH
— Alison Senepart <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
Poor rat.. I can relate to that whole thing. I
havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for a
while now. Must admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about. I can stay clean for months at a time but
every so often give in to
the temptation and then have to try and get back to
reality, although it was
so good at the time. Am pretty constant on 10mgs
methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and
hopefully I will be able to
drop that again in the near future. My partner is
on 85mgs a day and is not
interested at all in dropping his dose down. Guess
different things work
for different people and everyone has to figure out
their own solution.??
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox
Hi, I found this through reading the addiction
series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t
focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t
reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does
it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read
some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all
the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but
i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((
laurie
<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com
Yo, that wasn’t me. That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I
Addiction?
Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful,
mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and
operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.
But unstable and FLYING out of everything.
Or was that my universal remote…
The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.
People create theories in an attempt to understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the
events
in question.
Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is
awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it
destroys
things. I will never do fire again! In fact I
will
gather together groups of other people who have all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire is
awful, to make myself feel better.
Yeah, well, okay. If that works for you, fabulous.
But ya know what? It’s not the “correct” solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally wrong
–
or more specifically, incomplete. Because when you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from death.
And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively
using
drugs… it’s not all that different from the one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives. Most people are not all
that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most of
the
time. The only thing that separates you from them,
is
you have partially learned something they don’t
know
about. If you’re feeling like shit, or even if
you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high – you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to
the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but
somehow
totally different.
Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.
What all this means is: congratulations, you’re
human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek altered
states of consciousness. Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles
until
they get dizzy. It’s all the same thing.
If you have the specific goal of moving away from
drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances,
the
drugs in question are no longer working for you,
or
the consequences of continued use — in current
society — are too high a price to pay. I can
offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.
To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related systems;
psychology, biology and neurology. We can for
example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
addiction — upon exposure to a particular
molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.
Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…? Did the rat go to rodent therapy and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to a
higher power of its understanding? Uhm…
Probably
not. The only higher power it has come into
contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.
However, this is the part where it all spins in the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it very
little time to arrive at the understanding, hmmm,
I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp
objects. The only thing I have to look forward to
is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw me
in
the garbage. Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t I
hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not like
things could possibly get any worse.>>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: November 16, 2002 at 3:32:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Correct, the panel is on Saturday, Nov. 30th
Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
So then the panel is on saturday?
>From: Mundo Real
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
>Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:12:40 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>The reception on Friday Nov. 29th will be at a location TBA shortly.
>thanks.
> Randy Hencken wrote:Hi all,
>
>Will some one please clarify the the schedule of events in San Francisco at
>the end of the month. I see that it is supposed to be on the 29th and 30th
>but only saw an itinerary for one day.
>
>Randy
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
>
>
>
>———————————
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 3:14:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
We move into our Iboga Therapy House tomorrow!
Our technique now has been refined to a first iboga session to cut the
physical addiction, then a follow up second seession 2 – 4 weeks later for
the visualizations, when there is little or no drug in the patient’s system.
Our patients are doing very well after the second session. The world opens
up for them after the visualization experience.
Marc Emery
Iboga Therapy House
Vancouver, B.C.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Allison
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about.
Simply blink and the image will change – instantly/as
quick as a blink. If you want to turn the images off,
open your eyes and turn up the lights a bit. It is
very much like a dream, eyes closed, ya dream, eyes
open ya don’t. Also, most opiate addicts have few or
no visions/dreams however because they are addicted to
an opiate, they get in a dark space for a while. Many
of those I have spoken to who have done ibogaine while
addicted to opiates and after, prefer the post
addiction ibogaine session with visions more than the
while addicted sessions.
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
Not sure of your question but you will likely lose
weight once you give up the meth. The ibogaine session
and recovery will very likely knock a few pounds off.
I am not a believer in diets but do believe in diet
(as in good ones), post ibo there is some tendency to
eat better by some, I didn’t like coffee or anything
sweet, some people won’t smoke… It is like your
habits are somewhat disconnected (well so is your
mind…) and you are given the opportunity to either
re-connect them as they were or culture them into
something new.
Laurie
I have done detoxes but I always feel like i will >
?> jump out of my skin afterwards. is ibogaine not
like > that? i use heroin not very much crack.
Typically, no, you are not going to jump out of your
skin – can it happen, sure. Ibogaine does a bunch of
things anywhere from 0-100%, like removal of physical
addiction from opiates would be in the 90% of the
people 90% of the withdrawal (removed) or better 90%
of the time (just a ballpark ), it can do the same
thing with cravings and usually does pretty well. Over
all most of the time it is going to knock 8 out of 10
notches (assuming getting clean without ibo is a 10 on
the scale of how hard it is to do), so you are on a 2.
You still have to do work, you may still have some
minor cravings/withdrawal symptoms, still have to
maintain some self-control – eg running to the good
doctors to medicated you to get rid of these symptoms
is NOT usually a positive thing, still have to want to
get a life and go out and do it – not just sit there
basking in the ibo-glow (which passes). Ibogaine
offers an opportunity, you still have to walk through
that door – and may have to do it several times…
Again, post-opiate addiction, the ibo is very
different. Do not fear it, that is what your addiction
wants you to be – afraid.
Excuse me if I am muddling some text, I did a number
on my cornea the other day and can’t see too well.
FWIW, it is pretty serious and very painful. I didn’t
take “drugs” (I do have em handy) cause I just didn’t
feel like it and was able to turn most of the pain off
without them. Taking drugs for pain makes me
less/unable to do that, I get cranky/edgy… I
actually got quite wacked from turning up the
endorphins, if drugs were that good I would still be
using them. Brett
__________________________________________________
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From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: November 16, 2002 at 2:40:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
So then the panel is on saturday?
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:12:40 -0800 (PST)
The reception on Friday Nov. 29th will be at a location TBA shortly. thanks.
Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:Hi all,
Will some one please clarify the the schedule of events in San Francisco at
the end of the month. I see that it is supposed to be on the 29th and 30th
but only saw an itinerary for one day.
Randy
_________________________________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________________
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From: “Brian Mariano” <mariano@ibogainetreatment.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] Exorcism
Date: November 16, 2002 at 11:51:55 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Has anyone here experienced spirit possesion – or more to the point: the
removal of [or excorcising spirit possesion ]with the use of Ibogaine?
-gamma
Yes, it happened this summer when I was treated a non-addicted 30 years old
female. She was suffering from an eating disorder (bulimia) and wanted to
try an ibogaine treatment with the hope of getting healthy again.
Fortunately this first treatment really took her bulimia again. About two
weeks later she expressed the desire to go through the treatment again. She
was administered the ibogaine at lunchtime.She got into a “bad trip” at
about 2 a.m. (about 12 hours later), I had to be at her bed and talk to her
all night long so that she wouldn`t get lost in the hellish realms that were
overwhelming her. At noon she started to process in a very structured way
all sorts of psychological and relationship related material in a very
emotional way. This two hours long processing ended with a sort of
auto-exsorcism when she was fighting with the devil inside of her. I can say
that it was pretty scary, never seen anything like this. Definitely not an
ordinary ibo-treatment. After the treatment she made changes in her life
like quitting an unfulfilling relationship where they used to quarrell all
the time and similar. According to what she says only now she really started
to live.
I don`t recall all the detailes now, many of the things she was screaming in
norvegian.
Do you now of a similar case, Gamma ?
Brian
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: November 16, 2002 at 12:12:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The reception on Friday Nov. 29th will be at a location TBA shortly. thanks.
Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
Will some one please clarify the the schedule of events in San Francisco at
the end of the month. I see that it is supposed to be on the 29th and 30th
but only saw an itinerary for one day.
Randy
_________________________________________________________________
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
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From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Conference in SF
Date: November 16, 2002 at 12:01:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all,
Will some one please clarify the the schedule of events in San Francisco at the end of the month. I see that it is supposed to be on the 29th and 30th but only saw an itinerary for one day.
Randy
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
From: “R. A. Venglarcik” <raven@sybercom.net>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 11:48:02 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Alison,
Have you considered the occasional/regular use of entheogens
post-methadone? You indicate that you can “stay clean for months at a
time.” Perhaps you would benefit from such a psychoactive “booster” to
maintain long-term.
—–Original Message—–
From: Alison Senepart [mailto:aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz]
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:16 AM
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Poor rat.. I can relate to that whole thing. I havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for a while now. Must
admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of stuff others have
talked
about. I can stay clean for months at a time but every so often give in
to
the temptation and then have to try and get back to reality, although it
was
so good at the time. Am pretty constant on 10mgs methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and hopefully I will be able
to
drop that again in the near future. My partner is on 85mgs a day and is
not
interested at all in dropping his dose down. Guess different things
work
for different people and everyone has to figure out their own
solution.??
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox
Hi, I found this through reading the addiction series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((
laurie
<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com
Yo, that wasn’t me. That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I
Addiction?
Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful, mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.
But unstable and FLYING out of everything.
Or was that my universal remote…
The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.
People create theories in an attempt to understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the events
in question.
Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it destroys
things. I will never do fire again! In fact I will
gather together groups of other people who have all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire is
awful, to make myself feel better.
Yeah, well, okay. If that works for you, fabulous.
But ya know what? It’s not the “correct” solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally wrong –
or more specifically, incomplete. Because when you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from death.
And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively using
drugs… it’s not all that different from the one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives. Most people are not all that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most of the
time. The only thing that separates you from them, is
you have partially learned something they don’t know
about. If you’re feeling like shit, or even if you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high – you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but somehow
totally different.
Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.
What all this means is: congratulations, you’re human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek altered
states of consciousness. Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles until
they get dizzy. It’s all the same thing.
If you have the specific goal of moving away from drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances, the
drugs in question are no longer “working” for you, or
the consequences of continued use — in current
society — are too high a price to pay. I can offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.
To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related systems;
psychology, biology and neurology. We can for example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
“addiction” — upon exposure to a particular molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.
Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…? Did the rat go to rodent therapy and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to a
higher power of its understanding? Uhm… Probably
not. The only higher power it has come into contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.
However, this is the part where it all spins in the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it very
little time to arrive at the understanding, “hmmm, I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp
objects. The only thing I have to look forward to is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw me in
the garbage. Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t I hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not like
things could possibly get any worse.”>>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 10:59:38 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Allison
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of
stuff others have talked
about.
Simply blink and the image will change – instantly/as
quick as a blink. If you want to turn the images off,
open your eyes and turn up the lights a bit. It is
very much like a dream, eyes closed, ya dream, eyes
open ya don’t. Also, most opiate addicts have few or
no visions/dreams however because they are addicted to
an opiate, they get in a dark space for a while. Many
of those I have spoken to who have done ibogaine while
addicted to opiates and after, prefer the post
addiction ibogaine session with visions more than the
while addicted sessions.
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
Not sure of your question but you will likely lose
weight once you give up the meth. The ibogaine session
and recovery will very likely knock a few pounds off.
I am not a believer in diets but do believe in diet
(as in good ones), post ibo there is some tendency to
eat better by some, I didn’t like coffee or anything
sweet, some people won’t smoke… It is like your
habits are somewhat disconnected (well so is your
mind…) and you are given the opportunity to either
re-connect them as they were or culture them into
something new.
Laurie
I have done detoxes but I always feel like i will >
?> jump out of my skin afterwards. is ibogaine not
like > that? i use heroin not very much crack.
Typically, no, you are not going to jump out of your
skin – can it happen, sure. Ibogaine does a bunch of
things anywhere from 0-100%, like removal of physical
addiction from opiates would be in the 90% of the
people 90% of the withdrawal (removed) or better 90%
of the time (just a ballpark ), it can do the same
thing with cravings and usually does pretty well. Over
all most of the time it is going to knock 8 out of 10
notches (assuming getting clean without ibo is a 10 on
the scale of how hard it is to do), so you are on a 2.
You still have to do work, you may still have some
minor cravings/withdrawal symptoms, still have to
maintain some self-control – eg running to the good
doctors to medicated you to get rid of these symptoms
is NOT usually a positive thing, still have to want to
get a life and go out and do it – not just sit there
basking in the ibo-glow (which passes). Ibogaine
offers an opportunity, you still have to walk through
that door – and may have to do it several times…
Again, post-opiate addiction, the ibo is very
different. Do not fear it, that is what your addiction
wants you to be – afraid.
Excuse me if I am muddling some text, I did a number
on my cornea the other day and can’t see too well.
FWIW, it is pretty serious and very painful. I didn’t
take “drugs” (I do have em handy) cause I just didn’t
feel like it and was able to turn most of the pain off
without them. Taking drugs for pain makes me
less/unable to do that, I get cranky/edgy… I
actually got quite wacked from turning up the
endorphins, if drugs were that good I would still be
using them. Brett
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] nyc conference today- report?
Date: November 16, 2002 at 8:55:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hey all,
If anyone made/makes it to any of the conferences/forums today, I would be more than happy to post a report(s) on the day at drugwar.com. (Howard L. perhaps could write up a short report?)
I made it to 14th St.’s 2 and 3 trains this morning before turning around and coming home. I’m not feeling too well at all today, and I must extend my apologies to Dana.
Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“Prohibition creates an irresistibly lucrative
opportunity for entrepreneurs willing to operate
in illicit business. It is the policy
of idealists who cannot appreciate that the use
of drugs often reflects other sets of human
ideals: human perfectibility, the yearning
for a perfect moment, the peace that comes
from oblivion.” Richard Davenport-Hines
From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 16, 2002 at 5:15:44 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Poor rat.. I can relate to that whole thing. I havn,t done igobaine
either but have been reading up lots about it for a while now. Must admit
I’m a bit scared of the imaging and trip sort of stuff others have talked
about. I can stay clean for months at a time but every so often give in to
the temptation and then have to try and get back to reality, although it was
so good at the time. Am pretty constant on 10mgs methadone these days
which is enough to help me from being sick and hopefully I will be able to
drop that again in the near future. My partner is on 85mgs a day and is not
interested at all in dropping his dose down. Guess different things work
for different people and everyone has to figure out their own solution.??
Allison PS Does ibogaine work on body weight??????
—–Original Message—–
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Saturday, 16 November 2002 13:08
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox
Hi, I found this through reading the addiction series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((
laurie
<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com
Yo, that wasn’t me. That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I
Addiction?
Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful, mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.
But unstable and FLYING out of everything.
Or was that my universal remote…
The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.
People create theories in an attempt to understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the events
in question.
Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it destroys
things. I will never do fire again! In fact I will
gather together groups of other people who have all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire is
awful, to make myself feel better.
Yeah, well, okay. If that works for you, fabulous.
But ya know what? It’s not the “correct” solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally wrong –
or more specifically, incomplete. Because when you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from death.
And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively using
drugs… it’s not all that different from the one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives. Most people are not all that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most of the
time. The only thing that separates you from them, is
you have partially learned something they don’t know
about. If you’re feeling like shit, or even if you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high – you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but somehow
totally different.
Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.
What all this means is: congratulations, you’re human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek altered
states of consciousness. Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles until
they get dizzy. It’s all the same thing.
If you have the specific goal of moving away from drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances, the
drugs in question are no longer “working” for you, or
the consequences of continued use — in current
society — are too high a price to pay. I can offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.
To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related systems;
psychology, biology and neurology. We can for example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
“addiction” — upon exposure to a particular molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.
Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…? Did the rat go to rodent therapy and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to a
higher power of its understanding? Uhm… Probably
not. The only higher power it has come into contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.
However, this is the part where it all spins in the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it very
little time to arrive at the understanding, “hmmm, I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp
objects. The only thing I have to look forward to is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw me in
the garbage. Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t I hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not like
things could possibly get any worse.”>>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] stoner interlude- videogame review
Date: November 16, 2002 at 4:49:38 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi all,
Way back when, someone suggested I play videogames to counter the withdrawals from methadone.
LOL, I had to say then, and now, that I was way, way ahead of them.
So, in the interest of nothing but diversion and killing time, here’s my latest game review for HT, for any other stoner videogame freaks out there.
http://www.hightimes.com/htsite/lounge/content.php?page=lounge_02111211&tpage=1=
Soldier of Fortune II – Double Helix
(PC — Activision)
You are John Mullins, a soldier of fortune working for a super-secret mercenary organization known only as “The Shop.” You’ve been hired to track down an army of evil terrorists who are plotting to unleash a deadly biological plague, the Gemini Virus, upon the citizens of the world.
US politicians often bleat about how videogames can make children violent, conveniently forgetting that real live wars perpetrated by these same politicians may be even more suggestive to US children. That said, this is not a game for the blood-shy and faint of heart. Mullins is a killer. To accomplish his various missions on the way to eradicating the terrorists and their conspiracy, he must blow away hundreds of dastardly criminals all over the world, from Prague to the jungle of Colombia and beyond. Running on the Ghoul II technology coupled with the Quake II Team Arena engine, this game looks sharp. Shoot a bad guy in any of 36 different damage and 16 dismemberment zones, and watch blood spray and body parts disintegrate. If Mullins stays in place long enough, the bright red blood puddles under his victims then darkens as it dries.
snip-
Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“Prohibition creates an irresistibly lucrative
opportunity for entrepreneurs willing to operate
in illicit business. It is the policy
of idealists who cannot appreciate that the use
of drugs often reflects other sets of human
ideals: human perfectibility, the yearning
for a perfect moment, the peace that comes
from oblivion.” Richard Davenport-Hines
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Harm Reduction Coalition Seeking Articles and Artwork for “The Anonymous Issue”
Date: November 16, 2002 at 1:17:08 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>, “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <emdef@emdef.org>, <dsusa@dancesafe.org>, “Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt” <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://www.drcnet.org/wol/263.html#anonymous
Harm Reduction Coalition Seeking Articles and Artwork for “The Anonymous
Issue”
The Harm Reduction Coalition is seeking article submissions for “The
Anonymous Issue” of HRC’s newsletter, “Harm Reduction Communication. The
Anonymous Issue is a forum for drug users to discuss issues of importance to
them in anonymity.
HRC is especially interested in topics related to user involvement in the
harm reduction movement, be it as paid employees, volunteers or
participants, including the contradictions that face a movement that seeks
the participation of active drug users, yet has a hard time engaging in a
public dialogue about what this means; the problems active use causes in the
workplace; the reluctance of funders to channel money to people who are
viewed as criminals by the larger society; the struggles coworkers and
administrators have in addressing issues that require a new language and way
of thinking. HRC seeks to generate a dialogue, not solely to criticize, but
to generate creative solutions and develop a vision where harm reduction can
live up to its promise.
Send commentary, personal accounts, “how to” pieces, interviews, research
reports, artwork and anything else that comes to mind (except poetry), up to
4000 words, by January 31, 2003, to pcherash@harmreduction.org, text
double-spaced in MS Word or Corel Word Perfect, artwork in Photoshop,
Illustrator EPS, Quark XPress or Adobe Pagemaker. Submissions can also be
sent by mail to: Paul Cherashore, Publications Coordinator, Harm Reduction
Coalition, 22 West 27th Street, 5th Floor, New York, NY 10001.
Call (202) 213-6376 ext. 16 or e-mail pcherash@harmreduction.org for further
information. Visit HRC and learn about their December 1-4 conference in
Seattle at http://www.harmreduction.org online.
From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 15, 2002 at 10:58:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/15/02 7:09:38 PM, lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk writes:
I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((
All I can offer is my personal experience and that is: Ibogaine was the most
wonderful experience to happen in my life. I kicked methadone with it, and I
didn’t feel like jumping out of my skin afterwards. I didn’t feel all that
great physically, but I’d say 90% of the withdrawal sypmtoms were non-existant.
after 20 years of various drugs, the last six heroin/cocaine, and 4 years of
methadone my physical state wasn’t that great, I had the pallor of your local
concrete sidewalk. BUT: I had no desire to use. I was in Italy at the time and
the town I was staying in had quite a poulation of local street addicts.
everywhere i went I say people copping, fixing, hustling and s0-on. and not a
once did it draw me in.
in other words the obsession and compulsion were removed. For me, it was a very
spiritual experience and I drilled down to the core issues in 36 short hours.
-Years of 12 step or [psycho]therapy couldn’t come close to the revelations I
had. Other people I know didn’t experience anything of the sort but that is
their story, this is mine.
Post Ibogaine is a really important time to nurture yourself & do some
follow-up, things like eating healthy food, taking vitamins/supplements, get
some decent excercise, get out into nature if possible, lay off the old
habits/routines and find something really cool to do with your extra time, like
a long abandoned hobby or something entirely new and exciting and hopefully
legal. find a hip therapist, explore yourself. and check in here from time to
time. we’re all doing it, more or less.
Best of luck and feel free to ask questions,
-Gamma
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 15, 2002 at 8:01:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/15/02 7:09:38 PM, lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk writes:
I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((
The reports are all different because people are trying to provide true
accounts of what can be expected. If you have been around other people
kicking dope you know people have different responses to anything they use to
kick. In my opinion ibogaine when it works well will have you feeling better
after detoxing than you can possibly imagine, or not. You are simply going
to have to do it to find out what it is like for you. We may be promising
paradise but, it is conditional.
Howard
www.ibogaine.org/clin-perspectives.html
www.ibogaine.org/treatment.html
www.ibogaine.desk.nl/treatment.html
From: Laurie Kardon <lauriekardon@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] after the detox
Date: November 15, 2002 at 7:07:42 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi, I found this through reading the addiction series
in heroin times. I liked it a lot but it didn’t focus
on ibogaine exactly and it’s very hard to find
anything in that magazine. This is one of the best
things I’ve ever read about addiction. I won’t reprint
the whole thing but i love this :-)) I would please
like to know if anyone here can tell me what does it
feel like after you have done ibogaine? I’ve read some
of the web pages but it is very confusing and all the
reports are all different. I have done detoxes but i
always feel like i will jump out of my skin
afterwards. is ibogaine not like that? i use heroin
not very much crack.
thank you any information appreciated. I did try to
send email but its never replied to :-((
laurie
<<Patrick K. Kroupa / digital@mindvox.com
Yo, that wasn’t me. That was my disease
The addiction series: Part I
Addiction?
Cunning, baffling, electrical, powerful, mechanical,
insidious, dangerous, solid yet squishy and operating
on a principle similar to radar, only different.
But unstable and FLYING out of everything.
Or was that my universal remote…
The entire “disease” model of addiction is wrong.
People create theories in an attempt to understand
various phenomena, as time passes, many of these
theories are proven to be incorrect, or merely
inadequate and slapped together by persons who lack
the knowledge and experience to assimilate and
articulate a more cohesive understanding of the events
in question.
Fire . . . pretty, wow, neato… oh no, it burns,
damn, the house is on fire… ohmygawd fire is awful,
bad, terrible, stay away from it because it destroys
things. I will never do fire again! In fact I will
gather together groups of other people who have all
done fire, and sit around talking about why fire is
awful, to make myself feel better.
Yeah, well, okay. If that works for you, fabulous.
But ya know what? It’s not the “correct” solution.
The entire disease concept of addiction, could be
applied to just about anything and be equally wrong –
or more specifically, incomplete. Because when you
come down to it, your “disease” is being a human
being, and your life is just a relapse from death.
And the headspace you’re in when you’re actively using
drugs… it’s not all that different from the one
that many of the people on the planet maintain
throughout their lives. Most people are not all that
deliriously happy or thrilled with things, most of the
time. The only thing that separates you from them, is
you have partially learned something they don’t know
about. If you’re feeling like shit, or even if you’re
feeling really good, and just wanna get high – you
have the knowledge that when you bring this or that
molecule into your bloodstream and it attaches to the
receptors it likes; everything’s the same, but somehow
totally different.
Having learned this, you cannot unlearn it.
What all this means is: congratulations, you’re human.
Human beings are born to get high and seek altered
states of consciousness. Sex, drugs, rock n’ roll,
religion, little kids spinning around in circles until
they get dizzy. It’s all the same thing.
If you have the specific goal of moving away from drug
dependence, because due to various circumstances, the
drugs in question are no longer working for you, or
the consequences of continued use — in current
society — are too high a price to pay. I can offer
some very basic, and relatively simple advice.
To simplify and condense things: drug-dependence
involves a complex series of inter-related systems;
psychology, biology and neurology. We can for example
demonstrate that a specific strain of rat —
genetically bred to be extremely susceptible to
addiction — upon exposure to a particular molecule,
will suddenly STOP HITTING THE LEVER.
Now this is interesting, ‘cuz I mean, what
happened…? Did the rat go to rodent therapy and
work out its lousy childhood, gain insight into its
self-destructive behavior, and connect itself to a
higher power of its understanding? Uhm… Probably
not. The only higher power it has come into contact
with is the God whose religious tomes can be found
under the heading: molecular pharmacology.
However, this is the part where it all spins in the
opposite direction, because if the rat had a higher
level of cognitive function, it would take it very
little time to arrive at the understanding, hmmm, I’m
a rat, trapped in a cage, getting stuck with sharp
objects. The only thing I have to look forward to is
that they’re gonna kill me pretty soon and throw me in
the garbage. Ya know what, fuck this, why don’t I hit
that lever a few thousand more times, it’s not like
things could possibly get any worse.>>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you’ll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Purchasing 25 grams of iboga extract
Date: November 15, 2002 at 4:15:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What price can you give me if I buy 25 grams from you?
Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
http://ethnobotany.yage.net/ibogex.html
Here is an extraction and purification link
Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
www.ethnogarden.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Nicholas Labus
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh and is there any other hallucinogenic roots that resemble ibogaine roots. Cuz friend said for fact he got mind hallucinatios and felt nauseios from just a little bit of the bark from 3 other roots i don’t know what to make of it he is not lying
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much
P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week. i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)
MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox
.:vector:.
— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
> desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>
__________________________________________________
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From: Gamma <gammalyte9000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Still Raining, Still Dreaming: off the wall comments & coming out of lurk mode
Date: November 14, 2002 at 9:40:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours after ingestion…
I was still peaking long after the 18 hour mark as well. Luminescant DNA
ribbons, fractals of euphoria and the reflective bubbles…reflecting me back
at myself.
Glad to see the sys admin hasn’t shut us down yet. phew. Mr Wilson would be
proud of us, I think. Did that guy (Hal Lindsey) think ibo was a maintenence
drug or something? Now THAT would be exhuasting!
BTW, a great read: 12 step Horror Stories.
Has anyone here experienced spirit possesion – or more to the point: the
removal of [or excorcising spirit possesion ]with the use of Ibogaine?
-gamma
p.s. apologies to youz who may have contacted me off list (BC), I’ve been
laying off the computer, dealing with neck injury. some kind of weird pain
karma being worked out this year. I’ll be slowing getting back to you(z).
__________________________________________________
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From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 6:56:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Advanced admission for the SF forum is $25 ($35 at the door), lunch will not be provided but there are many restaurants nearby. Checks or money orders may be sent to Nelson Comerci at 1530 Gough St. #601, SF CA 94109. The reception on the 29th will take place from 6:00 pm to 10:00 pm at a location to be announced shortly. thanks.
Joshua Tinnin <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Thanks, Dana. Is there admission for the SF event, and which day will the
events listed be held? It says 29, 30, but there is only one day’s schedule.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal”
Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia
(707)987-8123
@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.
Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 6:53:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I believe that has been taken care for the SF forum, thanks.
Joshua Tinnin <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com> wrote:
I could probably find someone to film the one in SF, unless that has already
been taken care of.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nicholas Labus”
Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape i bet others
will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me goin back there
soon
Dana Beal wrote:”HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions
Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00
$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.
In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.
(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123
@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.
Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———
Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297
@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424
4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa
——–
Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org
@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928
Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM
———
NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!
For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Extremely Important and Urgent Question (the fate of universes hangs in the balance)
Date: November 14, 2002 at 6:28:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Very close. It’s David from Disturbed, Marilyn Manson and the Korn guy. It’s a outtake from the Queen of the Damned soundtrack. It’s on Kazaa, enter some combination of those names and it comes up.
Mindvox, will it be opening now that it works? Enquiring minds want to know.
On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:56:10 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
WHO is doing the cover of “Pressure” (the Billy Joel song,) that’s
hitting
rotation right now on alt-rock stations. It is absolutely fucking
brilliant, and sounds like Disturbed (however, I don’t think it
is…
Unless it’s some random unlisted B-side that is noted nowhere).
I can’t find it.
Thanks, this was a brief intermission; you may go about your life
now.
Patrick
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Extremely Important and Urgent Question (the fate of universes hangs in the balance)
Date: November 14, 2002 at 5:56:10 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com, vox@mindvox.com, drugwar@mindvox.com, crashtestdummies@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
WHO is doing the cover of “Pressure” (the Billy Joel song,) that’s hitting
rotation right now on alt-rock stations. It is absolutely fucking
brilliant, and sounds like Disturbed (however, I don’t think it is…
Unless it’s some random unlisted B-side that is noted nowhere).
I can’t find it.
Thanks, this was a brief intermission; you may go about your life now.
Patrick
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 3:29:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I could probably find someone to film the one in SF, unless that has already
been taken care of.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Nicholas Labus” <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape i bet others
will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me goin back there
soon
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:”HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions
Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00
$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.
In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.
(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123
@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.
Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———
Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297
@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424
4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa
——–
Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org
@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928
Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM
———
NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!
For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 3:26:49 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanks, Dana. Is there admission for the SF event, and which day will the
events listed be held? It says 29, 30, but there is only one day’s schedule.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Dana Beal” <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
<snip>
Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia
(707)987-8123
@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.
Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———
<snip>
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:30:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape i bet others will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me goin back there soon
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions
Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00
$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.
In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.
(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123
@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.
Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———
Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297
@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424
4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa
——–
Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org
@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928
Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM
———
NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!
For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:30:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Someone should bring recording equipment i will buy a tape i bet others will too i just got back from NY for funeral i don’t see me goin back there soon
Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions
Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00
$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.
In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.
(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123
@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.
Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———
Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297
@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424
4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa
——–
Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org
@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928
Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM
———
NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!
For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?YES AND FROM MI
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:28:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
right on man I’m hip. i think this methadone is finally starting to truly take control of my body i feel weak my muscles ache constantly i general i just feel unhealthy.fuck the bullshiti was on 130mgs now i am at 110 i am gonna start detoxing nex week like 5 mgs a week till i get down to 60mgs or unless the withdrawl insomnia w/muscle aches gets to be too much hey whats the tip on the buprenorphine around here is there docs or do you know more about it.yes i used to be hip to all that i had a friend that died of cancer and towards the end she would just give me her whole boddle of Roxanol for 8ball of Rock Good deal huh! Cuz she couldn’t leave the house there ain’t nothing like a 800mg morphine sulphate + 3,000mg liguid morphine + valiums and xanax and they even gave her speed the real shit so she could stay awake. which i got some of.Fuck a speedball When you got prescription morphine and speed throw in a hit of exstacy every once in awhile.I think its a crime to denie a dyings persons wishes for some mdma. I seen that stuff bring her back to life i swear cuz she was on so many meds for pain.The opiates did as much damage as the cancer.It ate away the calcium in her legs then what bone was left the cancer attached itself too.Sue may you rest in peace! i love you so much! i hope your in a good place now. But thats my story
GM40JM98@aol.com wrote:
Yes, My name is jim,My # at Project Life is 776 I was the 776th person under
Dr.Wolfs control,I now go th the Parkview clinic on University Dr. bet.Opdyke&
MLK Blvd..Give me a tx so we can holler right,I am also trying to find a DR
th help me off this shit and to deal with my many pains using
Fentanyl,Duragesic TTS Patches…..
You hip to those? My hookup is 1-(248)333-3735 KEEP IN TOUCH OUR COMBINED
KNOWLEDGE AND RESOURCES ARE OUR SALVATION.peace
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
From: GM40JM98@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] PLEASE unsubscribe
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:07:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/14/02 10:18:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk writes:
PLEASE unsubscribe andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
From: GM40JM98@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?YES AND FROM MI
Date: November 14, 2002 at 2:04:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes, My name is jim,My # at Project Life is 776 I was the 776th person under
Dr.Wolfs control,I now go th the Parkview clinic on University Dr. bet.Opdyke&
MLK Blvd..Give me a tx so we can holler right,I am also trying to find a DR
th help me off this shit and to deal with my many pains using
Fentanyl,Duragesic TTS Patches…..
You hip to those? My hookup is 1-(248)333-3735 KEEP IN TOUCH OUR COMBINED
KNOWLEDGE AND RESOURCES ARE OUR SALVATION.peace
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Special Bulletin on NYC, S.F., Seattle, Paris Forums, and Feb Intn’l Ibogaine Conference
Date: November 14, 2002 at 1:34:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE * & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions
Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Aton Edwards (activist/ journalist) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 1:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35
Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close
1:30 – 2:00
$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.
In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.
(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (415)567-0873 (Nelson) or Julia (707)987-8123
@ the Unitarian Church 1187 Franklin St.
Introduction by Ed Rosenthal 9:00 AM
Paradigmatic Overview w. Dana Beal 9:15 to 10:10 am
An Ex-Addicts View w. Patrick K. Kroupa 10:10 to 11:05 am
Science Update w. Dr. Deborah Mash 11:05 am to 12:15 pm
Break for Lunch until 2 pm
Ethnographic Review with Dr. Gene Schoenfield 2 to 2:55 pm
Ibogaine, Accupuncture & Urban Treatments w. Nelson C. 2:55 to 3:50 pm
Panel Discussion w. Ed Rosenthal & Chris Conrad 3:50 to 4:45pm
Break for coffee Until 5 pm
Final Panel Discussion with all the Presenters: 5 to 6 pm
———
Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd
(212)677-7180 (Dana) or Laurie Mishly 206-297-7297
@ the Sheraton Seattle, 1400 Sixth Ave at Pike St.
Suite 424
4 to 5:30 Pm
w. Dana Beal, Dr. Deborah Mash, Patrick Kroupa
——–
Paris: December 6 (re-scheduled from Nov. 22) 01133-614-815-679 (Farid)
or Aivia 01133-612-936-958 projetiboga@no-log.org
@ L’Espace 3 Rue de la Chappelle 01133140373928
Introduction by Dr. Bertrand LeBeau 9 am
On the Bwiti Laurant Sazy & Mallendi 9:30
Lunch 11:30 to 12:30 w. documentary film
Evolution of iboga paradigms w. Dana Beal 12:30 to 1:30
An Ex-Addict’s View w. Patrick Kroupa 1:30 to 2:30
Science Update w. John Pablo 2:30 to 3:30
Coffee Break 3:30 to 3:45
Final Panel w. all Presenters 3:45 to 5:30 PM
———
NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Location to be Announced
w. Dr. Deborah Mash, Dr.Stanley Glick, Dr. Ken Alper, Howard Lotsof,
Dana Beal, Bob Sisko, Laurent Sazy, Emmanuel Onaivi, Vic Hernandez
and many others!
For more info, please call. My incoming email is not working at this time.
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?YES AND FROM MI
Date: November 14, 2002 at 11:13:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hey man i go to the clinic on 7 mile which 1 do you go to but hey i made copys of a poster that says anyony looking to get of methadone for good by means of ibogaine please contact me it says a little more than that but thats the jist. none has responded and everyother day i go in there and tell people about methadone alternatives and i don’t know if we should use the word CURE thats a very very strong word. hey man i have been planning a trip over to windsor to pick up and sha bla bla over there maybe we could go in on it together i am just looking for people in the MICHIGAN AREA to possibly converse with on the subject of sharing expenses let me know. Or atleast tell me to blow myself just so i know .Thank you for reading this this means that you care enough about yourself to be looking for help or know this stuff helps. or its another big conspiracy i would not believe it myself if i hadnot had an addiction changing ethnogenic experience maybe 6 years ago then i seen in High T!*{$ a article on ibo. well thaats it 734 429 0659 NICK there now the cops know great fuck shit fuck i hope this is worth it.Thank you and look DEA all i want is help i’m not waNTING TO SELL OR CONSPIRE ANYTHING WITH DRUGS I JUST WANT HELP!
GM40JM98@aol.com wrote:
I have been on the deadly dolophine since 12-12-1979. You are just not a
client at a MET clinic you MUST be there or you are sick…PERIOD. Teh MET
wont even allow you to go back to heroin…. because it blocks your opiate
receptors.
I have received hundrede of chat room tupe info. on ibogaine. I am on my last
hopes,people ect. to find a source of,a underground clinic, caring people od
just some seeds I may that will help me try to ger finally and once for all
free of met.
Sincerelt,James Alan Moser,Pontiac,MI 1-(248)333-3735
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?YES AND FROM MI
Date: November 14, 2002 at 11:13:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hey man i go to the clinic on 7 mile which 1 do you go to but hey i made copys of a poster that says anyony looking to get of methadone for good by means of ibogaine please contact me it says a little more than that but thats the jist. none has responded and everyother day i go in there and tell people about methadone alternatives and i don’t know if we should use the word CURE thats a very very strong word. hey man i have been planning a trip over to windsor to pick up and sha bla bla over there maybe we could go in on it together i am just looking for people in the MICHIGAN AREA to possibly converse with on the subject of sharing expenses let me know. Or atleast tell me to blow myself just so i know .Thank you for reading this this means that you care enough about yourself to be looking for help or know this stuff helps. or its another big conspiracy i would not believe it myself if i hadnot had an addiction changing ethnogenic experience maybe 6 years ago then i seen in High T!*{$ a article on ibo. well thaats it 734 429 0659 NICK there now the cops know great fuck shit fuck i hope this is worth it.Thank you and look DEA all i want is help i’m not waNTING TO SELL OR CONSPIRE ANYTHING WITH DRUGS I JUST WANT HELP!
GM40JM98@aol.com wrote:
I have been on the deadly dolophine since 12-12-1979. You are just not a
client at a MET clinic you MUST be there or you are sick…PERIOD. Teh MET
wont even allow you to go back to heroin…. because it blocks your opiate
receptors.
I have received hundrede of chat room tupe info. on ibogaine. I am on my last
hopes,people ect. to find a source of,a underground clinic, caring people od
just some seeds I may that will help me try to ger finally and once for all
free of met.
Sincerelt,James Alan Moser,Pontiac,MI 1-(248)333-3735
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting – Let the expert host your site
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Hallucinogens and redemption.
Date: November 14, 2002 at 11:03:57 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
J Psychoactive Drugs 2002 Jul-Sep;34(3):239-48 Related Articles, Links
Hallucinogens and redemption.
de Rios MD, Grob CS, Baker JR.
Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Human Behavior, University of
Califomia, Irvine, USA.
This article examines drug substitution with regard to hallucinogens
(ayahuasca, ibogaine, peyote and LSD) set within the concept of redemption.
The model examines both religious and secular approaches to the contemporary
use of hallucinogens in drug substitution, both by scientists and in
religious settings worldwide. The redemptive model posits that the proper use
of one psychoactive substance within a spiritual or clinical context helps to
free an individual from the adverse effects of their addiction to another
substance and thus restores them as functioning members of their community or
group. Data is drawn from the U.S., Brazil, Peru, and West Africa. Two
principle mechanisms for this are proposed: the psychological mechanism of
suggestibility is examined in terms of the individual reaching abstinence
goals from addictive substances such as alcohol and opiates.
Neurophysiological and neurochemical mechanisms to understand the efficacy of
such substitution are highlighted from ongoing research on hallucinogens.
Research by two of the authors with the Unaio do Vegetal (UDV) Church in
Brazil is examined in terms of the model.
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: [ibogaine] PLEASE unsubscribe
Date: November 14, 2002 at 10:19:05 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
PLEASE unsubscribe andriaem@drugscope.org.uk
—–Original Message—–
From: Nicholas Labus [mailto:goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 November 2002 20:18
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much
P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week. i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)
MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox
.:vector:.
— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
! > desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising sec! tion for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you coul! d easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
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From: GM40JM98@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are you Methadone Experienced?
Date: November 14, 2002 at 10:08:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I have been on the deadly dolophine since 12-12-1979. You are just not a
client at a MET clinic you MUST be there or you are sick…PERIOD. Teh MET
wont even allow you to go back to heroin…. because it blocks your opiate
receptors.
I have received hundrede of chat room tupe info. on ibogaine. I am on my last
hopes,people ect. to find a source of,a underground clinic, caring people od
just some seeds I may that will help me try to ger finally and once for all
free of met.
Sincerelt,James Alan Moser,Pontiac,MI 1-(248)333-3735
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] final notice
Date: November 13, 2002 at 8:57:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please forward this email announcement of the New York City, Saturday,
November 16, IBOGA & IBOGAINE FORUM to interested lists and individuals.
Thank you.
This forum brings together a unique combination of activists, traditional
healers, scientists and medical experts with experience in the use of iboga,
the plant used in African religion or ibogaine, its purified pharmaceutical
product in healing practices and in the treatment of addiction.
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/nycforum.html
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE* & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addiction
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP)———8:45
Elombe Brath (activist/ journalist/ PLC)————–9:05
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga)—————9:30
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher)——————10:00
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert)—————10:30
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit)—————11:10
Rommell Washington (social worker)—————–11:35
Gen Discussion——————————————12:00
Moderator Close——————————————1:30
$10 ADMISSION – ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
No one will be turned away.
DEMPSEY CENTER AUDITORIUM 127 W. 127th St.
Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/nycforum.html
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 4:08:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nicholas,
“drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K,
etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh ”
There is no HOME test for ibogaine, it is not tested
for in any standard drug screens – it would have to be
a specific test, that is if you can find a lab who
would do it, drug dogs wouldn’t have a clue what it
is, neither would pretty much anyone else.
It is the root bark part of the iboga root that has
most of the ibogaine in it and concentration can vary
quit a bit, if of course that is iboga root you are
talking about (I don’t know what they look like in
person…). It takes roughly an ounce of quality root
bark to equal 1 gm of ibogaine, or a “dose” (for lack
of better way to guestimate). I couldn’t tell you a
fair price, depends on what it is worth to you. Indra
for instance (check their site for prices) would be
about 5 gm (an anti-addictive dose) to (roughly) an
ounce of quality root bark – again in my guestimation.
Of course it could take 3 ounces or that particular
root bark to do the same thing (if it is not quality),
or it could be “beat”/worthless stuff. You could for
instance purchase ibogaine HCL for about $125 a gm,
but have to order it in quantity, send money, have it
shipped and hope it doesn’t get lost/detoured and
unless you lived in a country where it was legal you
would have travel out of the country to get it… so
that adds to the cost…
Iboga/ibogaine itself is not that expensive, getting
your body to it or it to your body can be.
Check ethnogardens web site or Indra
Also keep in mind that most people never get enough
ibogaine and wind up having to get more…
Brett
— Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
hi i was wondering if there was any test for
checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or
anything a person could do without a labratory i
heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K,
etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought i know
the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you
think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a
wild thought ? but the first question is important.
i know this person on the internet who may have just
acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole
things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real
thick and if they tern out to be real what is a
fair honest price for them from a friend to a
friend! i just would like to help a friend out that
doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so
there it is please take the first question seriously
and if someone does reply could someone else please
either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions!
thank you very much
P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week.
i have been typing while not being myself. and i
said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes
i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just
nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High
Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)
MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox
.:vector:.
— Curtis Hersch wrote:
Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve
done ibogaine I
can sign onto the sacrament listing?
Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a
ibogaine religion
🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and
wandered in the
desert. That little tv station called Mindvox
doesn’t hurt either
I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need
to post the
guidelines for this some time and let us mere
mortals know how we
can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂
🙂
Without bitching and moaning like many so like to
do, hey what is
up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow
up it looks to
be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂
All of you really
ought to set up sections for alternative docs who
are not
treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for
the bay area. Let
people who help others advertise, you know your
hit rate on a site
that is closed and has nothing but your writing
and Drew’s art and
some strange odds and ends, is higher than
Cannabis Culture and
Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought
to at least open
up a basic advertising section for people who are
likely to be
interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs,
technology.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com
19,528
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com
21,466
On your traffic graph you have days when you spike
10,000. If you
open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about
a week bro.
Mindvox resurrected 🙂
Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion
too. You’ve got
ibogaine.net at 161,246
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing
this advice fly
by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it
works, put it online
and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be
millionaries in
a week, but you could easily make more then enough
money to at
least stop losing thousands every month hosting
Mindvox, break
even and go eat out or something 😉
I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching
and I have
never posted these dumb lists of statistics like
others like to
do. But I do have eyes and you have major major
interest here bro.
Even if you don’t want to spend your time running
a business
again, all of you could spend a very small amount
of time to just
set up a few basic things and start generating
flow. It has got to
get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down
the drain to
run Mindvox.
Peace out,
Curtis
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
———————————
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from
Greatest Hits CD
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: “Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.” <ethnogarden@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 3:49:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://ethnobotany.yage.net/ibogex.html
Here is an extraction and purification link
Ethnogarden Botanicals Corp.
www.ethnogarden.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Nicholas Labus
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh and is there any other hallucinogenic roots that resemble ibogaine roots. Cuz friend said for fact he got mind hallucinatios and felt nauseios from just a little bit of the bark from 3 other roots i don’t know what to make of it he is not lying
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much
P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week. i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)
MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox
.:vector:.
— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
> desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 3:22:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh and is there any other hallucinogenic roots that resemble ibogaine roots. Cuz friend said for fact he got mind hallucinatios and felt nauseios from just a little bit of the bark from 3 other roots i don’t know what to make of it he is not lying
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much
P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week. i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)
MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox
.:vector:.
— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
> desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] how do you test Roots Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 3:18:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi i was wondering if there was any test for checking if ibogaine is legic such as acid test or anything a person could do without a labratory i heard of drug test kits for coke .smack,weed,pcp,K, etc. but is there one for ibogabogaboga oh
and on a retarded note just a lazt thought i know the term Boogie man came from Africca but do you think it had anything to do with bwiti or ibo.Just a wild thought ? but the first question is important. i know this person on the internet who may have just acquired ibogaine root and root bark 6 of the whole things not weighed but 4 inches long and one is real thick and if they tern out to be real what is a fair honest price for them from a friend to a friend! i just would like to help a friend out that doesn’t have a computer so i’m relayiong message so there it is please take the first question seriously and if someone does reply could someone else please either dismiss or back up there idea/suggestions! thank you very much
P.S. Sorry for any nonsense i typed over past week. i have been typing while not being myself. and i said some dumn things.yes i am a drug addict and yes i need help but the shit i was talkin about was just nonsence thank you! bye
Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)
MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox
.:vector:.
— Curtis Hersch wrote:
>
> Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
> can sign onto the sacrament listing?
>
> Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
> 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
> desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
> I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
> guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
> can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
>
> Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
> up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
> be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
> ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
> treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
> people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
> that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
> some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
> Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
> up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
> interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
>
> On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
> open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
> Mindvox resurrected 🙂
>
> Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
> ibogaine.net at 161,246
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
> The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
> http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
>
> I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
> by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
> and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
> a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
> least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
> even and go eat out or something 😉
>
> I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
> never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
> do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
> Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
> again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
> set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
> get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
> run Mindvox.
>
> Peace out,
> Curtis
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 2:37:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yeah 🙂 Your approval rating is tremendous Mr. High Priest 🙂 You guys
should maybe open up soon 🙂 (ducking)
MindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVoxMindVox
.:vector:.
— Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I
can sign onto the sacrament listing?
Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion
🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the
desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either
I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the
guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we
can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is
up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to
be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really
ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not
treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let
people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site
that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and
some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and
Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open
up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be
interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you
open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro.
Mindvox resurrected 🙂
Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got
ibogaine.net at 161,246
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly
by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online
and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in
a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at
least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break
even and go eat out or something 😉
I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have
never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to
do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro.
Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business
again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just
set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to
get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to
run Mindvox.
Peace out,
Curtis
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ibogaine Religion 🙂
Date: November 13, 2002 at 1:26:37 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please keep the list updated 🙂 I assume if I’ve done ibogaine I can sign onto the sacrament listing?
Patrick as a high priest I can see. Patrick IS a ibogaine religion 🙂 great resume, he’s taken the gom jabbar and wandered in the desert. That little tv station called Mindvox doesn’t hurt either I’m sure. O.K. But………………….. you need to post the guidelines for this some time and let us mere mortals know how we can join the church of ibogaine 🙂 I’m there 🙂 🙂
Without bitching and moaning like many so like to do, hey what is up with Mindvox? After months of watching it blow up it looks to be stable, it all works. You should open it 🙂 All of you really ought to set up sections for alternative docs who are not treatment pimps, I can give you a good list for the bay area. Let people who help others advertise, you know your hit rate on a site that is closed and has nothing but your writing and Drew’s art and some strange odds and ends, is higher than Cannabis Culture and Marc looks like he’s making some money. You ought to at least open up a basic advertising section for people who are likely to be interesting in topics like ibogaine, drugs, technology.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=mindvox.com 19,528
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=cannabisculture.com 21,466
On your traffic graph you have days when you spike 10,000. If you open the beta you are so in the top 1,000 in about a week bro. Mindvox resurrected 🙂
Your church ought to do some ibogaine promotion too. You’ve got ibogaine.net at 161,246
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.net
The next closest thing is ibogaine.org at 315,133
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=ibogaine.org
I’m not bitching, I don’t do that but after seeing this advice fly by 100 times, I have got to agree with it. it works, put it online and light it all up. Without dot com you won’t be millionaries in a week, but you could easily make more then enough money to at least stop losing thousands every month hosting Mindvox, break even and go eat out or something 😉
I very much want to make it clear I’m not bitching and I have never posted these dumb lists of statistics like others like to do. But I do have eyes and you have major major interest here bro. Even if you don’t want to spend your time running a business again, all of you could spend a very small amount of time to just set up a few basic things and start generating flow. It has got to get old watching $3 or $4 thousand a month go down the drain to run Mindvox.
Peace out,
Curtis
At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:
Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..
hattie
> Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of possible
> names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
> Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
> Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
> “sacrament.”
>
> To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
> recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
> Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High Priest —
> ‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
> reverse.
>
> Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
> whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
> of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
> List.
>
> To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
> content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
>
> sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
>
> It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
> that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this listname
> anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
>
> This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest and
> Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
> Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
> of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
>
> ‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
> struggle. <Down, RelaX>
>
> “They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
Give your Company an email address like
ravi @ ravi-exports.com. Sign up for Rediffmail Pro today!
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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: November 12, 2002 at 9:07:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
my point being is I don’t charge anything. If you comply with our health
info request, you could, theoretically, motorcycle here.
Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Marc,
I am in the mid-atlantic area in the US and I was planning on driving the
Triumph again. I just got it running. It is a hard-core chopper that I
have
owned for 10 years. It is my last decent posession since my problem sucked
up all of my money and stuff.
I will be selling it soon to finance a trip to get ibo. Once I’m clean,
I’ll
get another bike.
Steve
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:54:15 -0800
Steve, where are you in North America? Do you still ride theTriumph?
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling
year
old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them
about
Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products
they
should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.
I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a
plane
ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything
resembling a heart.
Steve Diamond
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000
re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple
of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed
me
the
following:
Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months
ago
–
it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as
medium.
I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was
harvested
right
before shipment.
Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about
quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the
saleslist
and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources –
we
prefer to trade with locals.
Regards
Claus
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
_________________________________________________________________
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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: November 12, 2002 at 9:06:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Can you bike here then?
Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Marc,
I am in the mid-atlantic area in the US and I was planning on driving the
Triumph again. I just got it running. It is a hard-core chopper that I
have
owned for 10 years. It is my last decent posession since my problem sucked
up all of my money and stuff.
I will be selling it soon to finance a trip to get ibo. Once I’m clean,
I’ll
get another bike.
Steve
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:54:15 -0800
Steve, where are you in North America? Do you still ride theTriumph?
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling
year
old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them
about
Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products
they
should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.
I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a
plane
ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything
resembling a heart.
Steve Diamond
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000
re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple
of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed
me
the
following:
Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months
ago
–
it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as
medium.
I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was
harvested
right
before shipment.
Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about
quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the
saleslist
and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources –
we
prefer to trade with locals.
Regards
Claus
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
_________________________________________________________________
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: November 12, 2002 at 7:19:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc,
I am in the mid-atlantic area in the US and I was planning on driving the Triumph again. I just got it running. It is a hard-core chopper that I have owned for 10 years. It is my last decent posession since my problem sucked up all of my money and stuff.
I will be selling it soon to finance a trip to get ibo. Once I’m clean, I’ll get another bike.
Steve
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:54:15 -0800
Steve, where are you in North America? Do you still ride theTriumph?
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
> They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling
year
> old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them about
> Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products they
> should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
> desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.
>
> I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a plane
> ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything
> resembling a heart.
>
> Steve Diamond
>
>
>
>
> >From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
> >Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> >To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> >Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
> >Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000
> >
> >re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple of
> >complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed me
the
> >following:
> >
> >Hi Nick,
> >We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months ago –
> >it
> >was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as
medium.
> >I
> >have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was harvested
> >right
> >before shipment.
> >
> >Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about
quality
> >etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
> >Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the saleslist
and
> >have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources – we
> >prefer to trade with locals.
> >
> >
> >Regards
> >Claus
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 6:34:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I don’t know much about Acolytes… to be honest, I don’t know what they are <g>
Basically, one needst to ingest The Wafer of Sacrament (they are bitter!!!), and he/she gets all neccessary knowledge to become a priest. And, of course, one has to be nice to me, otherwise I won’t give him/her soooo desired Title!
;-)))
Marko
At 19:18 12.11.2002, you wrote:
So what does that make those who have not yet,but may well, who are in a
course of fervent religious study? Are they then Acolytes?
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
>>> Iboga@guest.arnes.si 11/12/02 12:22PM >>>
Dear Hattie,
no, you can’t be a high priestess just like this – I (being the Founder
and
TheHighestPriest) have to give you this title. Hopefuly when we meet
;-))
Love,
Marko
At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
>on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:
>
>
>Does that make me a high priestess!!!
>Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a
pre-requisite
>of having consumed the sacrament.
>Just wondering…..
>
>hattie
> > Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of
possible
> > names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
> > Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting
up Any
> > Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left
it at
> > “sacrament.”
> >
> > To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
> > recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
> > Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High
Priest —
> > ‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
> > reverse.
> >
> > Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine
— for
> > whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?”
/ “All
> > of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
> > List.
> >
> > To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject,
and/or
> > content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
> >
> > sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
> >
> > It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you,
respond to
> > that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this
listname
> > anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
> >
> > This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest
and
> > Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being
a
> > Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the
Fires
> > of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
> >
> > ‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
> > struggle. <Down, RelaX>
> >
> > “They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 6:29:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
At 19:17 12.11.2002, you wrote:
Marko,
I, too, would like to be ordained.
Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association
Hey, hey, hey!!! So many people want to join “my” religion, that’s GREAT!!
I suggest this: when the Temple will be online, then I’ll start to deal with this, OK?
In the meantime, here’s something for all of you, those who want to join and those who don’t.
Marko
////////////////////
1) After the treatment, my body seemed more fragile and vulnerable than
usual. I’ve been more intensely aware of the traps and crystalizations of the
discursive mind, how one leaks energy constantly. This realization has made
me sensitive to socialized habits that feed negativity and threaten the
awareness that ‘everything is a dream’, waking and sleeping. Old karma has
manifested, old habits and addictions seem to be screaming for attention. And
yet I’m half way into another kind of intention that leaves me in a kind of
bardo stage of ‘becoming’. It isn’t particularly painful, as I recognize that
state, but its disorienting, as if a few wires have been pulled and placed
into sockets that I’m not particularly acquainted with.
2) I’ve felt the need to go on a semi-retreat, which is where I am now, in a
cabin overlooking the sea in Nova Scotia. My work has been slow (writing a
book) as the usual conceptual nature of this process seems unavailable, as if
I’m waiting for a further level of consciousness to proceed. So I wait. I
look at the sky. I drift. I sleep twelve hours a night and sometimes take
naps. It’s as if I’m in hibernation. Waiting to ‘be” rather than constantly
‘do’.
3) It would seem very beneficial if there was follow-up work to be done after
this extraordinary session: grounding work, certain exercises or meditations
that would allow one to contain and work with the released energy, methods of
working with the emotional, spiritual and physical implications. All the
subsequent addictions that are released in such a treatment create a body of
fear and apprehension that seek to protect one from taking a further step
into the realm or domain of freedom. How does one work with the fear of
expansion, the fear of surrender, the fear of, ultimately, death? It’s step
by step, of course, but without being too formal and certainly not
instituional, it would seem important to have a way to continue; a process
that would involve assimilation and faith. A proscribed ritual to summon
grace and sanctify the circle.
4) Iboga was unlike anything I’ve ever taken before, which includes San
Pedro, Peyote, Ayaquasca, LSD, mushrooms etc.. It contains a very big
energizing motor, a relentless surge that seems to mirror the maniacal
desperation of the cognitive mind. The result was a kind of initiation into a
pre-cognitive state, a brief window into a sense of unity that preceedes the
imprint of the ego, that shock that locks one into a cognitive pattern, into
believing thoughts are real, separate from the essence of mind. The ripples
of this insight continue. In a Buddhist sense, it afforded me a lucid
appreciation of suffering, of where suffering comes from, how one imparts it
and becomes inevitably addictive to it. The whole seductive dance of
clinging, thinking, judging etc.. all the strategies of separation and
dissonance.
5) The medicinal value seems to be one of releasing the nodules and infinite
endless separations of one’s energy flow that can, if not released, become
the cause of sickness and degeneration. When the mind is exhausted or even
for a moment relaxed, then healing can occur. Iboga stimulates this process
of circulation. It seems to unhinge the grip of cogntion so that there are
more gaps between words, more essential moments of silence, a deeper
continuity away from those agreements that cause suffering.. it points the
way towards the beginings of a field of grace, of the possibly of nourishment
which can only occur when the internal dialogue is extinguished or at least,
stilled. It seems very masculine, in a way, in its relentless process, but
the result is quite feminine in the subsequent exhaustion of thought. The
plant asks, even demands, that one surrender. I found the entire process
extremely powerful and radical in ways that I am only now begining to
appreciate.
6) I look forward to continuing this work which seems to call for nothing
less than a revolution of the psyche. It seems to have the power to push one
towards the ‘drop edge of yonder’, ready or not, without a parachute. Love
and grace are its wings, its eyes are intention, it’s heart the womb.So
everything has the possibilty of becoming a vision or a dream, even chopping
wood and carrying water. Because it is so powerful minimal teachings and
explanations would seem neccessary, or at least practical suggestions: a way
of relaxing the inevitable addictions of control, the waves of fear that
overcome one when approaching ‘that long passage that leads beyond the
beyond”
From: jon ludlam <seraphina@compuserve.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Test
Date: November 12, 2002 at 4:39:48 PM EST
To: “INTERNET:ibogaine@mindvox.com” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
It worked fine.
Thanks for everything you folks are great.
Seraphina
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 1:18:41 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
So what does that make those who have not yet,but may well, who are in a
course of fervent religious study? Are they then Acolytes?
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
Iboga@guest.arnes.si 11/12/02 12:22PM >>>
Dear Hattie,
no, you can’t be a high priestess just like this – I (being the Founder
and
TheHighestPriest) have to give you this title. Hopefuly when we meet
;-))
Love,
Marko
At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:
Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a
pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..
hattie
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting
up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you,
respond to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the
Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
Patrick
From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 1:17:06 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marko,
I, too, would like to be ordained.
Randy Hencken
Ibogaine Association
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:22:27 +0100
Dear Hattie,
no, you can’t be a high priestess just like this – I (being the Founder and TheHighestPriest) have to give you this title. Hopefuly when we meet ;-))
Love,
Marko
At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:
Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..
hattie
> Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of possible
> names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
> Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
> Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
> “sacrament.”
>
> To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
> recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
> Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High Priest —
> ‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
> reverse.
>
> Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
> whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
> of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
> List.
>
> To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
> content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
>
> sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
>
> It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
> that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this listname
> anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
>
> This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest and
> Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
> Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
> of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
>
> ‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
> struggle. <Down, RelaX>
>
> “They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 12:22:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Hattie,
no, you can’t be a high priestess just like this – I (being the Founder and TheHighestPriest) have to give you this title. Hopefuly when we meet ;-))
Love,
Marko
At 12:53 12.11.2002, you wrote:
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:
Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..
hattie
> Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of possible
> names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
> Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
> Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
> “sacrament.”
>
> To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
> recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
> Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High Priest —
> ‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
> reverse.
>
> Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
> whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
> of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
> List.
>
> To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
> content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
>
> sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
>
> It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
> that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this listname
> anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
>
> This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest and
> Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
> Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
> of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
>
> ‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
> struggle. <Down, RelaX>
>
> “They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 8:07:18 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
OTOH, does the world need another Church?!
Just asking.. seriously, someone please inform andria-ignoramus why this new
list is being set up; I may have missed something
I certainly feel funny about the idea of preaching anything, including
Ibogaine..
Somebody help/explain!
andria
—–Original Message—–
From: Hattie [mailto:epoptica@freeuk.com]
Sent: 12 November 2002 11:53
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:
Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..
hattie
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
Patrick
NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any
attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in
respect of viruses that may have been transmitted
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 12, 2002 at 7:52:09 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thanx for saying that Preston.
Everyone,
Maybe I’m weird; (correction, i am!)
BUT i tend to think that 1 line of defence is attack; what Hal did.
it’s easy for us to feel hurt and react; I do it all the funking time, esp. if stressed out, but I didn’t get the impression that Hal could really put this list out of bizz, which I think, is the ONLY bit of his e that should really concern any of us, yeh?
andria
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet [mailto:ptpeet@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: 09 November 2002 00:48
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
uh, actually, I was sorta kinda interested.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Vector Vector
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
That was really long and boring, resaid things that have been said 500
times about the CDA and Mindvox.
Patrick’s reply was better ‘please feel free to suck my dick’
This puts me to sleep and the CDA has been dead for at least 5 years.
Who cares.
.:vector:.
— ascending@hushmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Not that I think you’re listening. You may be able to have small
> sites which are hosted shut down if the service provider doesn’t want
> to deal with being harassed. Usually the terms and conditions
> indicate that they have the right to deny you access for any reason
> they want to.
>
> If you own the servers then the upstream provider will be listening
> if you are mass mailing spam or providing kiddie porn. Before you get
> a bright idea, you’d have to prove this. Looking up Mindvox they are
> their own upstream provider too, or they are on a private network
> which doesn’t sell colocation services. Which means someone in
> Mindvox, Inc. is a partner or owns a lot of shares. This private
> network is hosting one set of servers, Mindvox. Mindvox is hosting in
> the neighborhood of 85 web sites. And looking up their DNS, that’s
> over in Canada. Probably so if something happens in the United States
> they can move their servers to another country and can’t be shut down
> since the A record isn’t in the US.
>
> Good luck.
>
> The CDA Communications Decency Act was a large movement of people
> like you who wanted to officially censor and label the entire net in
> mid 90’s. Mindvox is listed in every court document and if I remember
> right, Bruce Fancher is online somewhere on CNN debating why the CDA
> will destroy the internet. It’s not in the Mindvox media kit or I
> can’t find it. The CDA became law in NY for 1 year, I think Mindvox
> moved to Maryland, the CDA debate then went to the Supreme Court and
> was declared unconstitutional and struck down.
>
> That was a few years ago with Clinton. Right now I’m sure it would
> pass.
>
> The real question is why do you go all over the internet harassing
> people who are not forcing you to view their content and think
> everyone should be accountable to you?
>
> On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:47 -0800 Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
> wrote:
> >This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties
> >that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the
> nonsense
> >being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
> > k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
> >crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
>
> >from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
>
> >your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to
> understand
> >if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
> psychedelic
> >cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed
> >drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and
> >are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while
> >he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean.
> >Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult.
> >This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
> >denial.
> >
> >Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
> >the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to
> contact
> >your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in respect of viruses that may have been transmitted
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 12, 2002 at 7:30:48 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hal
Perhaps U should know that some people on this list are not using anything,
and try to remember the spiritual principles, which NA tries to teach us:
Live and Let Live
Whatja think?
Take care;
Andria
—–Original Message—–
From: Hal Lindey [mailto:hlindsey1@lycos.com]
Sent: 08 November 2002 06:08
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d
hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by
little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all
banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming
addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should
be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving
addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of
you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics
like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have
done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was
clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This
is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
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privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any
attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in
respect of viruses that may have been transmitted
From: Andria Efthimiou-Mordaunt <AndriaEM@drugscope.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 12, 2002 at 7:23:37 AM EST
To: “‘ibogaine@mindvox.com'” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Can I just remind US that people got to NA cos they’re generally quite potty
in the 1st place, and our interpretation of things is, I think, largely what
causes the probs; there is no law that says we ought to believe ANY of what
is said in those rooms, or indeed stay if it’s useless to us: presumably the
reason why most on this list are ex-attenders, no?
Sadly people do tend to leave after an individual, or group has offended
them, and carry stuff (sometimes for years.)n Fortunately my memory don’t
work that long!
When I read Americans resent at NA, I recall the 20-or-so meetings i went to
over there..most of them were fine; i felt supported and loved for a little
while. (In Boston 1 time, the meeting closed with the Lords Prayer, which is
breaking traditions no? Weird!?)
Anyway, Preston’s attitude was right.
Whoever the angry-at-us person prolly just needs to know that his choice AS
WELL AS ours are ok. ;we’re alive and most of us thriving, one way or
t’other.
If the rain would just let up 4 five hrs in London, I’d thrive EVEN MORE!
andria
—–Original Message—–
From: Jon Freedlander [mailto:jfreed1@umbc.edu]
Sent: 08 November 2002 06:03
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Brett Calabrese wrote:
It is not AA/12 steps that bother me so much as the
interpretation/people that I have a problem with in
the “rooms”, with their boogy-man disease is going to
get you if you don’t do these things or do those
things. Yeah, yeah, take what you need… right, it
is just so depressing for me – BUT finally I can go to
meetings and not want to use when I come out. That is
NOT a joke and NOT funny and is the reason I stopped
going.
You’re definately not alone in that experience. Maybe it just goes to
prove that i’m a bastard, but after sitting through an NA meeting, i felt
so enraged at the group think, at the destruction of personality, the best
thing to do to get back at them (in my twisted junky mind) was to go out and
use, with a vengence
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, please be aware that any use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender. Any views or
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent those of the organisation. Although this message and any
attachments have been scanned for viruses, we do not accept any liability in
respect of viruses that may have been transmitted
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: [DN] Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!
Date: November 12, 2002 at 6:54:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>The only buprenorphine drug diversion reported at the meeting was
in the prison system. <
Someone in Tompkins Square Park (not prison) gave me one of these a couple years back now, when I was kicking methadone and very, very, very sick. It felt like I’d done 2 or 3 bags of dope, and was very, very fucked up after letting just one of these pills, (no idea what the measurement of the dose was) disolve in my mouth. But it sure helped with the sick.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Joshua Tinnin
To: Ibogaine
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:14 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [DN] Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!
—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 09:38:08 +1100
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!
Dear Colleagues,
The NSW Health Department’s Buprenorphine Forum in Kings
Cross on Wednesday 16th October was attended by about 40
professionals. It was an excellent ‘talk-fest’ with a high degree of
agreement on the fundamental issues of a balanced and safe
introduction of buprenorphine now that the first two years have
passed almost without incident. Delegates from general practice,
community pharmacy, specialist clinics, patient representatives,
nursing, prison medical and administration spoke of uniformly
positive experience with sub-lingual buprenorphine tablets for
addiction treatment. Approximately 10% of around 15,000
approved maintenance patients in the state are currently prescribed
sublingual buprenorphine, the remainder being on methadone.
Dr Jennifer Gray PhD of NSW Health spoke on the introduction
process over the past 3 years. She said that we should all be proud
of the smooth implementation of what is basically the first new
effective heroin addiction treatment in 30 years. Dr Gray
mentioned the French model which allows unsupervised pharmacy
dispensing of buprenorphine.
Dr James Bell, medical adviser to the Drug Programs Bureau also
alluded to the possible benefits of an unsupervised supply of
buprenorphine as sometimes used in France, despite little
systematic research. He also said that the current British system
can still lead to ‘wheel-barrows full’ of methadone to be dispensed
without supervision which must be avoided in our system. He
rightly referred to the serious ‘indignities’ of being on closely
supervised agonist treatments and the possible benefits of wider
access to take-away doses to reduce the need for clinic visits in
future. He also said that he strongly supported looking into the use
of a mixed drug containing naloxone which has been designed to
reduce diversion of the drug (naloxone is only 10% absorbed sub-
lingually but would cause immediate withdrawals if injected by a
person with a current opioid habit).
The only buprenorphine drug diversion reported at the meeting was
in the prison system. In a coffee break I went with a number of
other delegates to the close-by Medically Supervised Injecting
Centre. Apparently no buprenorphine has been reported by
attendees, all of whom are asked what drug they intend to inject.
The Kings Cross Police also told me that they have not had a
problem with buprenorphine on the street.
One delegate made the important point that it was not appropriate
to implement buprenorphine withdrawal treatment unless there
were maintenance ‘places’ available since short term reductions had
a low success rate, as with methadone.
There was virtually unanimous support for the gradual easing of
take-away restrictions for those patients who currently attend daily.
The proportion of patients who could move to second daily was
not as high as the 85% which had been shown in some research
trials. Figures from 33% to 75% were reported from different
treatment services. It was reported that for new patients and for
those on reduction regimens daily dosing was usually required.
Even for those on second daily dosing, it was suggested that one or
two doses each month may allow added flexibility such as for
public holidays, family commitments and/or emergencies, always
assuming that such subjects are stable and suitable clinically for
such doing privileges. It was considered by most that even though
buprenorphine appeared to be fundamentally a safer drug than
methadone it was still premature to discuss making it more freely
available as dispensed doses at this time.
A number of negative aspects were mentioned. There is more
paper-work as there are three entries in the drug register for the
three strengths of tablet. The close similarity of the 0.4mg and 2mg
tablets and their packaging was noted by two delegates. While
buprenorphine can be more time consuming, it could also save
time. Some methadone patients have chronic nausea and vomiting
and a proportion of these may be happier with the newer drug.
There were complaints about the presentation and a request for
bulk supplies without the packaging. But we were told by the
Reckitts representative that ‘bubble packs’ of 7 tablets were
probably here to stay, at least for now. Tablets are individually
packed in a nitrogen atmosphere to preserve shelf life, thus loose
tablets were not acceptable.
There was much discussion about dosing practices. It was
suggested by one delegate who had run extensive buprenorphine
trials that while we may need to move away >from a number of long-
held notions such as the ‘3-day rule’ and slow, careful inductions
based on experience with methadone. Several delegates felt that
this drug may be better used by giving quite high initial doses and
cutting down later, which is quite the opposite of what we are
taught with methadone (although it IS a suggested alternative
protocol in some guidelines). Being a safer drug in ‘single drug’
overdose, the gradual induction and dose increases to therapeutic
should probably be abandoned in favour of relatively rapid steps.
Some delegates suggested as high at 10-20mg daily if tolerated. In
spite of its intrinsic safety, we were also reminded that
buprenorphine has been associated with numerous deaths in France,
nearly all when used with alcohol and/or other depressants.
However, overall overdose death rates have dropped markedly in
that country.
Australasian doctors, pharmacists and other health case workers
now have a responsibility to move with the various State and
Territory authorities, Colleges and colleagues to ‘normalise’ the use
of buprenorphine in medical practice to maximise its benefits. This
will assist opioid dependent patients as well as improve safety and
amenity for the wider community. All clinics offering treatment for
addiction should make this drug available for appropriate cases.
The forum proceedings were organised by Michelle Tjhin and
David McGrath. It was agreed that the newly formed Chapter of
Addiction Medicine should play a major role at the next such
meeting and that both the drug company and Drug Programs
Bureau may have available funds for innovative education and
research projects on addiction treatments.
comments by Andrew Byrne ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524 Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 12, 2002 at 6:53:07 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
on 11/10/02 10:23 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa at digital@phantom.com wrote:
Does that make me a high priestess!!!
Patrick, firstly is this a closed list and secondly is there a pre-requisite
of having consumed the sacrament.
Just wondering…..
hattie
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
Patrick
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [DN] Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!
Date: November 12, 2002 at 3:14:02 AM EST
To: “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 09:38:08 +1100
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Sydney buprenorphine forum: broad agreement on most issues!
Dear Colleagues,
The NSW Health Department’s Buprenorphine Forum in Kings
Cross on Wednesday 16th October was attended by about 40
professionals. It was an excellent ‘talk-fest’ with a high degree of
agreement on the fundamental issues of a balanced and safe
introduction of buprenorphine now that the first two years have
passed almost without incident. Delegates from general practice,
community pharmacy, specialist clinics, patient representatives,
nursing, prison medical and administration spoke of uniformly
positive experience with sub-lingual buprenorphine tablets for
addiction treatment. Approximately 10% of around 15,000
approved maintenance patients in the state are currently prescribed
sublingual buprenorphine, the remainder being on methadone.
Dr Jennifer Gray PhD of NSW Health spoke on the introduction
process over the past 3 years. She said that we should all be proud
of the smooth implementation of what is basically the first new
effective heroin addiction treatment in 30 years. Dr Gray
mentioned the French model which allows unsupervised pharmacy
dispensing of buprenorphine.
Dr James Bell, medical adviser to the Drug Programs Bureau also
alluded to the possible benefits of an unsupervised supply of
buprenorphine as sometimes used in France, despite little
systematic research. He also said that the current British system
can still lead to ‘wheel-barrows full’ of methadone to be dispensed
without supervision which must be avoided in our system. He
rightly referred to the serious ‘indignities’ of being on closely
supervised agonist treatments and the possible benefits of wider
access to take-away doses to reduce the need for clinic visits in
future. He also said that he strongly supported looking into the use
of a mixed drug containing naloxone which has been designed to
reduce diversion of the drug (naloxone is only 10% absorbed sub-
lingually but would cause immediate withdrawals if injected by a
person with a current opioid habit).
The only buprenorphine drug diversion reported at the meeting was
in the prison system. In a coffee break I went with a number of
other delegates to the close-by Medically Supervised Injecting
Centre. Apparently no buprenorphine has been reported by
attendees, all of whom are asked what drug they intend to inject.
The Kings Cross Police also told me that they have not had a
problem with buprenorphine on the street.
One delegate made the important point that it was not appropriate
to implement buprenorphine withdrawal treatment unless there
were maintenance ‘places’ available since short term reductions had
a low success rate, as with methadone.
There was virtually unanimous support for the gradual easing of
take-away restrictions for those patients who currently attend daily.
The proportion of patients who could move to second daily was
not as high as the 85% which had been shown in some research
trials. Figures from 33% to 75% were reported from different
treatment services. It was reported that for new patients and for
those on reduction regimens daily dosing was usually required.
Even for those on second daily dosing, it was suggested that one or
two doses each month may allow added flexibility such as for
public holidays, family commitments and/or emergencies, always
assuming that such subjects are stable and suitable clinically for
such doing privileges. It was considered by most that even though
buprenorphine appeared to be fundamentally a safer drug than
methadone it was still premature to discuss making it more freely
available as dispensed doses at this time.
A number of negative aspects were mentioned. There is more
paper-work as there are three entries in the drug register for the
three strengths of tablet. The close similarity of the 0.4mg and 2mg
tablets and their packaging was noted by two delegates. While
buprenorphine can be more time consuming, it could also save
time. Some methadone patients have chronic nausea and vomiting
and a proportion of these may be happier with the newer drug.
There were complaints about the presentation and a request for
bulk supplies without the packaging. But we were told by the
Reckitts representative that ‘bubble packs’ of 7 tablets were
probably here to stay, at least for now. Tablets are individually
packed in a nitrogen atmosphere to preserve shelf life, thus loose
tablets were not acceptable.
There was much discussion about dosing practices. It was
suggested by one delegate who had run extensive buprenorphine
trials that while we may need to move away from a number of long-
held notions such as the ‘3-day rule’ and slow, careful inductions
based on experience with methadone. Several delegates felt that
this drug may be better used by giving quite high initial doses and
cutting down later, which is quite the opposite of what we are
taught with methadone (although it IS a suggested alternative
protocol in some guidelines). Being a safer drug in ‘single drug’
overdose, the gradual induction and dose increases to therapeutic
should probably be abandoned in favour of relatively rapid steps.
Some delegates suggested as high at 10-20mg daily if tolerated. In
spite of its intrinsic safety, we were also reminded that
buprenorphine has been associated with numerous deaths in France,
nearly all when used with alcohol and/or other depressants.
However, overall overdose death rates have dropped markedly in
that country.
Australasian doctors, pharmacists and other health case workers
now have a responsibility to move with the various State and
Territory authorities, Colleges and colleagues to ‘normalise’ the use
of buprenorphine in medical practice to maximise its benefits. This
will assist opioid dependent patients as well as improve safety and
amenity for the wider community. All clinics offering treatment for
addiction should make this drug available for appropriate cases.
The forum proceedings were organised by Michelle Tjhin and
David McGrath. It was agreed that the newly formed Chapter of
Addiction Medicine should play a major role at the next such
meeting and that both the drug company and Drug Programs
Bureau may have available funds for innovative education and
research projects on addiction treatments.
comments by Andrew Byrne ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524 Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [DN] Rapid detox dangers sometimes due to poor practices
Date: November 12, 2002 at 3:11:54 AM EST
To: “Ibogaine” <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “Peter Webster” <vignes@monaco.mc>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:54:21 +1100
From: Andrew Byrne <ajbyrne@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Rapid detox dangers sometimes due to poor practices.
Dangers involved in rapid opioid detoxification while using opioid
antagonists: dehydration and renal failure. Roozen HG, de Kan R,
van den Brink W, Kerkhof AJFM, Geerlings PJ. Addiction (2002)
97:1073-5
Dear Colleagues,
This single case history describes a patient who lost excess fluid (15
litres seems almost unbelievable) following a rapid detox
procedure, needing rehydration treatment in hospital. The
‘Addiction’ journal depart from its usual policy of not publishing
individual case reports, as Editor Edwards has stated, due to the
limited scientific value of one-off cases. Regarding naltrexone
assisted detoxification, this story seems to indicate little more than
poor quality treatment can lead to serious complications which is
no surpise.
The Dutch authors write briefly about this complex field – hardly
justifying the rather grandiose title used by the journal. Though
they contend that octreotide is a ‘new development’ it was first used
in 1995 (Dr C. Brewer, London). It is now considered routine by
most in the rapid detox field to avoid just this type of serious
complication (see Bell et al. 1999).
These authors neglect to say how many such procedures were
performed, nor whether it was a specialist agency doing them.
Thus the reader cannot judge the relative dangers of the treatment
as one might hope from the title.
There is an interesting description of ambulatory rapid detox from
Spain in Addiction’s sister publication ‘Addiction Biology’. See my
separate posting following and citation below.
comments by Andrew Byrne ..
Bell J, Young MR, Masterman SC, Morris A, Mattick RP, Bammer
G. A pilot study of naltrexone-accelerated detoxification in opioid
dependence. Med Journ Aust (1999) 171: 26-30
Roozen HG, de Kan R, van den Brink W, Kerkhof AJFM,
Geerlings PJ. Dangers involved in rapid opioid detoxification while
using opioid antagonists: dehydration and renal failure. Addiction
(2002) 97:1073-5
Carreno JE, Bobes J, Brewer C, Alvarez CE, San Naciso GI,
Bascaran, Sanchez del Rio J. 24-hour opiate detoxification and
antagonist induction at home – the ‘Asturian method’: a report on
1368 procedures. Addiction Biology (2002) 7:243-250
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Andrew Byrne,
Medical Practitioner, Drug and Alcohol,
75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
New South Wales, 2016,
Australia
Tel (61 – 2) 9319 5524 Fax 9318 0631
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Bright Light <thehealinglight@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Test
Date: November 11, 2002 at 9:35:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Testing to see if my confirm subscribe worked. Sorry
to interrupt.
__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 10, 2002 at 8:15:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Vector Vector wrote:
— Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
All that without a single photo of a naked chick (the horror!)
wait; there’s a picture of a naked chick on the site, and i missed
it?
something is very wrong here, indeed!
I think Patrick was saying they’ve managed to get rated adult content
and banned everywhere without any porn 🙂
Oh crap. ahah. i read that as “with only one picture of a naked chick”
instead of “without…”
must be what i get for not having smoked any pot in a few weeks… =)
==========================================================================
| |
| League of Surrealist Discord – www.lsdrecords.net |
| |
| ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds… |
————————————————————————–
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Judge on leave for smoking joint at Stones Concert
Date: November 10, 2002 at 7:58:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Vector Vector wrote:
“District Judge Thomas Gilbert has taken an indefinite voluntary leave
from his duties after he was spotted smoking marijuana at a Rolling
Stones concert at Ford Field in Detroit.” Why is this a crime, much
less a reason to suspend employment?
crikey…all that for two drags?!
i’d like to see every judge suspended who had two sips of scotch….
==========================================================================
| |
| League of Surrealist Discord – www.lsdrecords.net |
| |
| ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds… |
————————————————————————–
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 10, 2002 at 7:34:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
All that without a single photo of a naked chick (the horror!)
wait; there’s a picture of a naked chick on the site, and i missed
it?
something is very wrong here, indeed!
I think Patrick was saying they’ve managed to get rated adult content
and banned everywhere without any porn 🙂
Drew has some nice drawings.
http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=Sacred/Gallery.html
When will the WackyCrackHeads score ibogaine be finished? Mr. High
Priest 🙂
Here’s a half naked chick, not sure it counts since it’s in drew’s home
directory and some site he’s working on.
http://www.mindvox.com/~dross/re.jpg
This one is cute too 🙂
http://www.mindvox.com/~digital/
.:vector:.
__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 10, 2002 at 7:26:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
On [Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 07:07:47PM -1100], [Hal Lindey] wrote:
| This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that
| I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being
| read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites
| have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and
| melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to
| becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it
| and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some
| joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for
| addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming
| addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the
| truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his
| addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
| have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get
| help until you accept your denial.
Uhm, whut somebody said is correct. We are blocked by every censorware
site on the planet, and have taken no particular action to get around
this.
All that without a single photo of a naked chick (the horror!)
wait; there’s a picture of a naked chick on the site, and i missed it?
something is very wrong here, indeed!
==========================================================================
| |
| League of Surrealist Discord – www.lsdrecords.net |
| |
| ‘Tis an ill wind that blows no minds… |
————————————————————————–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 7:10:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I wanted to echo this sentiment. I don’t type fast and don’t talk that much here but from every drug list I have ever read, this one has more hope and good energy on it then any of the others. You’re all a bit touched in the head, but I’m starting to think that’s a foundation for any kind of recovery not built on the 12 step slave model. Wouldn’t say one of you here is normal and I wouldn’t say that I know many in more traditional recovery who are anywhere near having a good time.
Keep the faith and thanks to each of you who all do things to make at least a little more light in the darkness.
—
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:45:45
Carla Barnes wrote:
That’s not exactly what I was going to say 😉 But
this is great! When I see all of you on the covers of
magazines along with how many hundred years your
prison sentences will be, I’ll send you some money
into commisary.
LOL and happy all at the same time. “very fucking
cool” Patrick 😉
I have to say, that even with the very negative people
and those who are just plain a$$holes, there is a lot
of hope on here. Thanks for that 🙂 And thanks for
running Mindvox and all the lists 🙂
Carla B
— Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER
FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN THE LORDS NAME THOUGHT
SHALL BE NONE
!WE ARE ALL 1 AND TILL YOU FUCKERS RELIZE THAT
NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO
IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE CAN’T YOU SEA THAT. RELAX
BEFORE WE FUCKING
*>TIDAL>WAVE>>>>>> *((_-((SPIRAL OUT@))-_))*
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly
everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re
not kidding.
I love all of you! This whole place is like a
sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.
I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever
runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a
priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal
ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be
a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t
work.
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire
collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into
our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple
will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it
out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a
religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire
situation is
Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.
I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences
long, so I went
with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have
already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does
it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or
“Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning
any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no
difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can
reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t
published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near
future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve
got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the
requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling,
damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is
all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic
complexes are having a
power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from
God.”
Patrick
Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:48:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
sEND MINE TO WASTENAW COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF MENTAL CORRECTIONS FOR
WHEN YOU WISH YOU HADN’T SAID THAT HEHE UMADALA IS WATCHING SO PRAY
TO YOU SAVIOUR GOOD OL J.C. OR MOSES OR WHATEVER THE FUCK CUZ HE
WASN’T THERE WHEN OTHERS GOT DISMEMBERED JUST KIDDING I WOULD NEVER
HARM A HAIR ON YOUR BODY
A ORgan is different though
— Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:
That’s not exactly what I was going to say 😉 But
this is great! When I see all of you on the covers of
magazines along with how many hundred years your
prison sentences will be, I’ll send you some money
into commisary.
LOL and happy all at the same time. “very fucking
cool” Patrick 😉
I have to say, that even with the very negative people
and those who are just plain a$$holes, there is a lot
of hope on here. Thanks for that 🙂 And thanks for
running Mindvox and all the lists 🙂
Carla B
— Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER
FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN THE LORDS NAME THOUGHT
SHALL BE NONE
!WE ARE ALL 1 AND TILL YOU FUCKERS RELIZE THAT
NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO
IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE CAN’T YOU SEA THAT. RELAX
BEFORE WE FUCKING
*>TIDAL>WAVE>>>>>> *((_-((SPIRAL OUT@))-_))*
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly
everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re
not kidding.
I love all of you! This whole place is like a
sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.
I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever
runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a
priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal
ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be
a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t
work.
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire
collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into
our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple
will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it
out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a
religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire
situation is
Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.
I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences
long, so I went
with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have
already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does
it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or
“Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning
any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no
difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can
reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t
published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near
future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve
got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the
requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling,
damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is
all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic
complexes are having a
power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from
God.”
Patrick
Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:45:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That’s not exactly what I was going to say 😉 But
this is great! When I see all of you on the covers of
magazines along with how many hundred years your
prison sentences will be, I’ll send you some money
into commisary.
LOL and happy all at the same time. “very fucking
cool” Patrick 😉
I have to say, that even with the very negative people
and those who are just plain a$$holes, there is a lot
of hope on here. Thanks for that 🙂 And thanks for
running Mindvox and all the lists 🙂
Carla B
— Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER
FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN THE LORDS NAME THOUGHT
SHALL BE NONE
!WE ARE ALL 1 AND TILL YOU FUCKERS RELIZE THAT
NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO
IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE CAN’T YOU SEA THAT. RELAX
BEFORE WE FUCKING
*>TIDAL>WAVE>>>>>> *((_-((SPIRAL OUT@))-_))*
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly
everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re
not kidding.
I love all of you! This whole place is like a
sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.
I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever
runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a
priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal
ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be
a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t
work.
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K.
Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire
collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into
our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple
will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it
out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a
religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire
situation is
Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT.
I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences
long, so I went
with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have
already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does
it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or
“Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning
any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no
difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can
reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t
published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near
future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve
got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the
requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling,
damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is
all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic
complexes are having a
power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from
God.”
Patrick
Get your free encrypted email at
https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:41:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN THE LORDS NAME THOUGHT SHALL BE NONE
!WE ARE ALL 1 AND TILL YOU FUCKERS RELIZE THAT NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO
IT EFFECTS THE WHOLE CAN’T YOU SEA THAT. RELAX BEFORE WE FUCKING
*>TIDAL>WAVE>>>>>> *((_-((SPIRAL OUT@))-_))*
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re not kidding.
I love all of you! This whole place is like a sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.
I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t work.
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is
Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
Patrick
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:36:56 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jesus Christ heavan and earth i LOVE YOU MOTHER FUCKERS! I WILL EAT
THE SACRAMENT TONIGHT FOR IN
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly everybody on this
list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re not kidding.
I love all of you! This whole place is like a sanctuary for people
who are really and truly crazy.
I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever runs this church of
ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a priest in a
church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal ground to be in
possession of your sacrament when it happens to be a schedule I
substance in the US? You have to know that can’t work.
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa”
<digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of
possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be
lighting
up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is
Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have already done
ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really
work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get
it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject,
and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you,
respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for
being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
Patrick
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
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From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 6:23:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You really are nuts. Not just you but nearly everybody on this list. You use humor to deflect things but you’re not kidding.
I love all of you! This whole place is like a sanctuary for people who are really and truly crazy.
I have to ask this. Do you, Dana Beal, whoever runs this church of ibogaine, any of you actually believe that being a priest in a church ordained in slovenia gives you some legal ground to be in possession of your sacrament when it happens to be a schedule I substance in the US? You have to know that can’t work.
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:23:46 -0800 “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that
being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting
up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left
it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High
Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went
with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine
— for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?”
/ “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond
to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this
listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest
and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being
a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin,
the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a
power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
Patrick
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] I’m reading my mail
Date: November 10, 2002 at 5:54:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Really, I am, I promise. Sometime between RIGHT NOW and tomorrow, if I
haven’t replied to you since forever, I will do so. It may not be a
really long response, but hey, I’ll read whatcha said, assimilate it,
reply to it. I’m trying to desplatter my mail spool, I’m doing the very
best I can here without 5 secretaries.
Patrick
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] New Ibogaine List
Date: November 10, 2002 at 5:23:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Okay, it’s now online. I have this whole entire collection of possible
names, but we’re sorta halfway wedging it into our church; that being
Sacrament of Transition — for which a new Temple will be lighting up Any
Minute Now. Since it’s sorta long to type it out, I’ve just left it at
“sacrament.”
To clarify: Sacrament of Transition is a religious order legally
recognized in Slovenia. The whole entire situation is Absolutely,
Positively and Without a Doubt, NOT *my* FAULT. I’m just a High Priest —
‘cuz Dana has already picked a title 8 sentences long, so I went with the
reverse.
Basically this is a list for people who have already done ibogaine — for
whatever reason(s) they had. It isn’t the, “Does it really work?” / “All
of you suck and should be more like I am!” or “Where do I get it!?!?!?”
List.
To sign onto the list send a blank email (meaning any subject, and/or
content, or none whatsoever, it makes no difference) to:
sacrament-subscribe@mindvox.com
It’ll autoreply with a message making sure it can reach you, respond to
that message, and you’re on the list. I haven’t published this listname
anywhere else yet, but will do this in the near future.
This is so fully fucking excellent. So now I’ve got High Priest and
Buddhist Monk; I gotta find out what the requirements are for being a
Southern Baptist Minister: LiVe snake handling, damnation, sin, the Fires
of Hell! Woo Hoo, now THAT is what religion is all about.
‘Scuse me my megalomaniacal and messianic complexes are having a power
struggle. <Down, RelaX>
“They can’t stop us, we’re on a mission from God.”
Patrick
From: Slip Stream <slipstream@hipplanet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Zero Point Energy and the PKD Spectrum
Date: November 10, 2002 at 1:55:29 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://www.socorro.demon.co.uk/zpe.htm
http://www.ldolphin.org/zpe.html
http://www.dnai.com/~zap/
So What is it ?
Zero Point Energy, sometimes called Zero Point Fluctuations (ZPF) or even Quantum Vacuum Fluctuation Energy, with or without the optional quantum, is caused by the continual popping into existence of virtual particles. These particles vanish almost as soon as they’ve popped into existence.The particles, which arise as matter-antimatter twins, can interact but must, disappear within an interval set by Planck’s constant. They are a result of random electromagnetic oscillations, they are whats left within a vacuum once you’ve extracted all the energy.
One way to explain this apparent contradiction is Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle, this implies that it is impossible to have an absolutely zero energy condition. The same condition holds for light waves in space. For all wavelengths of light, there is a non-zero amount of that light. Adding up the energy for all those different wavelenghts, the amount of energy in a given space is enormous. Even though this is a difficult concept for traditional phyicists to come to terms with, the idea that all this vacuum energy exists is becoming more widley accepted, and the quantum physicists have come in from the cold.
So is there any evidence of all this free energy actually exists. Well there have been a number of experimental results that would suggest/show (depends on whether your a traditional physicist or not) that such energy actually exists:
The Casimir Effect – The most straight-forward evidence for vacuum energy
Van der Waal Forces
The Lamb-Retherford Shift – Refers to a slight frequency alteration in the light emitted by an excited atom
Even for those of you who have read ‘A Brief History of Time’, by Prof. Stephen Hawkins – Hawkins Radiation, should it exist relies on the creation of virtual particles in matter/anti-matter pairs. One particle spirals into the Hole, the other escapes, causing the theoretical effect.
With such large amounts of energy bouncing around, why is it so hard to notice?
Imagine, for example, if you lived on a large plateau, so large that you didnt know you were 1000 ft up. From your point of view, your ground is at zero height. As long as your not near the edge of your 1000 ft plateau, you wont fall off, and you will never know that your zero is really 1000. Its kind of the same way with this vacuum energy. It is essentially our zero reference point.
The energy of the vacuum is a puzzle in theories of quantum gravity since it should act gravitationally and produce a large cosmological constant that would cause space-time to curl up. The solution to the inconsistency is expected to be found in a theory of quantum gravity. There has been some interesting work, done in this field, by Haisch, Rueda, and Puthoff , where vacuum fluctuations are used to explain the effects of both gravity and inertia.
Can we extract any of this energy ?
Puthoff believes that atoms themselves offer a way to extract this energy. This idea hinges on an unproved hypothesis: that zero-point energy is what keeps electrons in an atom orbiting the nucleus. In classical physics, circulating charges like an orbiting electron lose energy through radiation. Putoff believes that zero-point energy keeps the electron zipping around the nucleus (Quantum mechanics as originally formulated simply states that an electron in an atom must have some minimum, ground-state energy.)
Physicists have demonstrated that a small enough cavity can suppress the natural inclination of a trapped, excited particle to give up some energy and drop to a lower energy state [see “Cavity Quantum Electrodynamics,” by Serge Haroche and Jean-Michel Raimond; Scientific American, April 1993]. Basically, the cavity is so small that it can exclude some of the lower-frequency vacuum fluctuations, which the excited atom needs to emit light and drop to a lower energy level. The cavity in effect controls the vacuum fluctuations.
Under the right circumstances, Puthoff reasons, one could effectively manipulate the vacuum so that a new, lower ground state appears. The electron would then drop to the lower ground state–in effect, the atom would become smaller–and give up some energy in the process.
“It implies that hydrogen or deuterium injected into cavities might produce excess energy,” Puthoff says.
This possibility might explain some of the cold-fusion experiments, he notes–in other words, the occasional positive results reported in cold-fusion tests might really be indicators of zero-point energy (rather than, one would assume, wishful thinking). Work in cavity quantum electrodynamics is experimentally challenging in its own right, so it is not clear how practical an energy supply from “shrinking atoms” could be. The Austin institute is testing a device that could be interpreted as manipulating the vacuum. Puthoff, however, declines to provide details, citing a proprietary nondisclosure agreement with its designers.
Can this Energy take us to the Stars ?
Puthoff’s institute receives a little government money but gets most of its funds from contracts with private firms. Others are backed more explicitly by public money. This past August the National Aeronautics and Space Administration sponsored a meeting called the “Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop.” According to participants, zero-point energy became a high priority among those trying to figure out which “breakthroughs” should be pursued.
The propulsion application depends on a speculation put forth in 1994 by Puthoff, Bernhard Haisch of Lockheed Palo Alto Research Laboratory and Alfonso Rueda of California State University at Long Beach. They suggested that inertia–the resistance that objects put up when they are accelerated–stems from the drag effects of moving through the zero-point field. Because the zero-point field can be manipulated in quantum experiments, Puthoff reasons, it should be possible to lessen an object’s inertia and hence, for a rocket, reduce the fuel burden. Puthoff and his colleagues have been trying to prove this inertia-origin hypothesis–a sensitive pendulum should be able to detect a zero-point-energy “wake” left by a moving object–but Puthoff says they have not managed to isolate their system well enough to do so. More conventional scientists decried the channeling of NASA funds to a meeting where real science was lacking. “We hardly talked about the physics” of the proposals, complained Milonni, adding that during one of the breakout sessions “there was a guy talking about astral projection.” Certainly, there should be room for far-out, potentially revolutionary ideas, but not at the expense of solid science. “One has to keep an open mind, but the concepts I’ve seen so far would violate energy conservation,” Milonni concludes. In sizing up zero-point-energy schemes, it may be best to keep in mind the old caveat emptor: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
References
Haisch in Feb 1994 Phys. Rev.A Science vol 263 p 612 Scientific American vol 270, p 30 New Scientist 25 Feb 1995 p 30
“Gravity as a Zero-Point-Fluctuation Force,” H.E. Puthoff, Physical Review A: General Physics. Mar 1 1989, Vol39 No 5
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Judge on leave for smoking joint at Stones Concert
Date: November 10, 2002 at 12:10:30 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“District Judge Thomas Gilbert has taken an indefinite voluntary leave
from his duties after he was spotted smoking marijuana at a Rolling
Stones concert at Ford Field in Detroit.” Why is this a crime, much
less a reason to suspend employment?
http://www.record-eagle.com/2002/nov/08gilber.htm
November 8, 2002
Judge goes on leave for smoking joint at concert
– Thomas Gilbert admitted to smoking marijuana at a Rolling Stones
concert in Oct.
By PATRICK SULLIVAN
Record-Eagle staff writer
TRAVERSE CITY – District Judge Thomas Gilbert has taken an
indefinite voluntary leave from his duties after he was spotted smoking
marijuana at a Rolling Stones concert at Ford Field in Detroit.
Gilbert’s leave was effective Wednesday after he admitted the
drug use to Chief District Judge Michael Haley and District Judge
Thomas J. Phillips at a meeting earlier in the week.
“He’s full of shame and regret and it’s just a very sad day for
the district court,” Haley said Thursday.
Haley said he interviewed an unidentified Elk Rapids woman last
week who reported she witnessed Gilbert twice take a drag from a
marijuana cigarette as it was passed along a row of people at the
concert.
“She was concerned about it because she saw a judge smoking a
joint, and she was rightfully concerned,” Haley said.
Haley, Phillips and several other court staff members also
happened to be at the Rolling Stones concert on Oct. 12, but they were
seated in separate sections of the stadium and did not witness Gilbert
smoke marijuana.
Gilbert, a former Traverse City commissioner, was not available
for comment, but Haley provided the Record-Eagle with a written
statement from Gilbert.
“I broke the law by twice puffing on a marijuana cigarette during
a rock concert,” Gilbert wrote. “I deeply regret this error in
judgment, for I have let down my fellow judges, the court staff, my
family, and the community.”
Gilbert will be on voluntary leave until at least Nov. 15,
pending a professional assessment for substance abuse. Gilbert can
return to the bench upon the recommendation of a substance abuse
treatment provider, but he will be limited to hearing only civil cases
until further notice, Haley said.
“Based on what I know about Tom personally and professionally, I
cannot believe that this is just a gross judgment error or a character
flaw. I believe that this conduct is the result of substance abuse”
that also involved alcohol, Haley said.
Haley, who in an interview was clearly troubled by the
revelation, said he believes people, including judges, should get a
second chance.
“Judges come in all shapes and sizes, they have all kinds of
personal issues, problems, chemical dependency, and they’re human
beings,” he said. “Judge Phillips and I and the staff would like to see
him back on the bench, we’re behind him, we believe he’s a good man.”
But he also said his concern for Gilbert is secondary to his
concern for the integrity of the court.
“I will do everything I can do to ensure the integrity of the
court, which I believe is very good at this time,” he said.
Haley said he needs time to consider the implications of the
incident for the court. For example, as chief judge, Haley may bar
Gilbert from hearing certain criminal cases, such as marijuana cases.
Meanwhile, Gilbert, who is two years into a four-year term, has
submitted a misconduct disclosure to the Michigan Judicial Tenure
Commission.
According to Haley, after an investigation, the commission’s
options for Gilbert include a private censure, a public censure, a
suspension with or without pay, limiting his judicial duties, such as
precluding him from presiding over criminal cases, or removing him from
the bench.
While Gilbert is on leave, his docket will be handled by Haley
and Phillips. Haley said there should be no significant impact on the
court’s docket. The 86th District Court encompasses Grand Traverse,
Antrim and Leelanau counties.
__________________________________________________
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From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] We rented our Iboga Therapy House
Date: November 8, 2002 at 8:14:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Do those odd Canadian laws allow you to grow iboga there? No, it’s not the
season. Still, I’m trying, with other things. Better to have a few leaves
before the frost hits than nothing at all.
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:07 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] We rented our Iboga Therapy House
On a fabulous oceanfront, we rented our Iboga Therapy House today.
We take posession next weekend, move in furniture and get down to work.
Inspiring place. Going to make a rudimentary gym, there are gardening
plots
(though its not the season), beautiful hiking trails all around.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
This Bill Wilson thing reminded me of this:
Texas Governor James “Pa” Ferguson explained, in 1917, why he had
vetoed
a bill to finance the teaching of foreign languages in the public
school
system: “If English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for
the
school children of Texas.”
—
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] We rented our Iboga Therapy House
Date: November 8, 2002 at 8:07:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On a fabulous oceanfront, we rented our Iboga Therapy House today.
We take posession next weekend, move in furniture and get down to work.
Inspiring place. Going to make a rudimentary gym, there are gardening plots
(though its not the season), beautiful hiking trails all around.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Bill Ross” <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
This Bill Wilson thing reminded me of this:
Texas Governor James “Pa” Ferguson explained, in 1917, why he had vetoed
a bill to finance the teaching of foreign languages in the public school
system: “If English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for the
school children of Texas.”
—
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 7:59:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This Bill Wilson thing reminded me of this:
Texas Governor James “Pa” Ferguson explained, in 1917, why he had vetoed
a bill to finance the teaching of foreign languages in the public school
system: “If English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for the
school children of Texas.”
—
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 7:48:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
uh, actually, I was sorta kinda interested.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Vector Vector
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
That was really long and boring, resaid things that have been said 500
times about the CDA and Mindvox.
Patrick’s reply was better ‘please feel free to suck my dick’
This puts me to sleep and the CDA has been dead for at least 5 years.
Who cares.
.:vector:.
— ascending@hushmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Not that I think you’re listening. You may be able to have small
> sites which are hosted shut down if the service provider doesn’t want
> to deal with being harassed. Usually the terms and conditions
> indicate that they have the right to deny you access for any reason
> they want to.
>
> If you own the servers then the upstream provider will be listening
> if you are mass mailing spam or providing kiddie porn. Before you get
> a bright idea, you’d have to prove this. Looking up Mindvox they are
> their own upstream provider too, or they are on a private network
> which doesn’t sell colocation services. Which means someone in
> Mindvox, Inc. is a partner or owns a lot of shares. This private
> network is hosting one set of servers, Mindvox. Mindvox is hosting in
> the neighborhood of 85 web sites. And looking up their DNS, that’s
> over in Canada. Probably so if something happens in the United States
> they can move their servers to another country and can’t be shut down
> since the A record isn’t in the US.
>
> Good luck.
>
> The CDA Communications Decency Act was a large movement of people
> like you who wanted to officially censor and label the entire net in
> mid 90’s. Mindvox is listed in every court document and if I remember
> right, Bruce Fancher is online somewhere on CNN debating why the CDA
> will destroy the internet. It’s not in the Mindvox media kit or I
> can’t find it. The CDA became law in NY for 1 year, I think Mindvox
> moved to Maryland, the CDA debate then went to the Supreme Court and
> was declared unconstitutional and struck down.
>
> That was a few years ago with Clinton. Right now I’m sure it would
> pass.
>
> The real question is why do you go all over the internet harassing
> people who are not forcing you to view their content and think
> everyone should be accountable to you?
>
> On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:47 -0800 Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
> wrote:
> >This site and all you here are like a bad party >from the sixties
> >that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the
> nonsense
> >being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
> > k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
> >crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
>
> >from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
>
> >your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to
> understand
> >if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
> psychedelic
> >cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed
> >drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and
> >are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while
> >he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean.
> >Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult.
> >This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
> >denial.
> >
> >Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
> >the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to
> contact
> >your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
>
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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 7:13:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think you post things
like this because you want people to respond to you.
Such people are called trolls, named after the folkloric characters
who live under bridges and insult passers-by, trying to get them
to argue with them in order to capture them or something.
That was either a very naive and challenged person or a really
accomplished troll.
Here’s a link to what I imagine is an entertaining story that
likely as not illustrates the roots of the practice:
http://members.fortunecity.com/bookdepository/stories/pratchett/trollbridge/trollbridgetext.html
Bill
From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: quotes: Kurt Cobain’s Journals
Date: November 8, 2002 at 6:53:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 4:30 AM
Subject: [drugwar] quotes: Kurt Cobain’s Journals
“I like to blame my parents generation for coming so close to social
change
then giving up after a few successful efforts by the media & Government
to
deface the movement by using Mansons and other Hippie representatives as
propaganda examples on how they were nothing but unpatriotic, communist,
satanic, inhuman diseases, and in turn the baby boomers become the
ultimate, conforming, Yuppie hypocrites a generation has ever produced.”
“People have been known to shoot booze, mouthwash, etc., drug use is
escapism whether you want to admit it or not…Every junkie I’ve ever met
has fought with it at least 5 years and most end up fighting for about
15-25 years, until finally they have to resort to becoming a slave to
another drug the 12 step program which is in itself another
drug/religion.
If it works for you do it. If your ego is too big start at square one and
go the psychological rehabilitative way. Either way you’ve got at least 5
to 10 years of battle ahead of you.”
Chris
————————–
“In heaven, all the interesting people are missing.”
————————–
<]=———————————————————————–=
[>
[ Moderated by: Preston Peet | http://www.drugwar.com | Andria
E-Mordaunt ]
| -=/[ To Subscribe: drugwar-subscribe@mindvox.com ]/=-
|
| To Unsubscribe: drugwar-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
|
[ DrugWar List in Digest Format:
ugwar-digest-subscribe@mindvox.com ]
<]=———————————————————————–=
[>
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Kurt Cobain diaries
Date: November 8, 2002 at 6:49:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Bro, Mindvox does appear to be stable. Playing with it now. Is it open yet or not?
And this made me remember something since I just got this tag line
“…Things have Never been so Swell / And I have Never Felt so Well…” –Kurt Cobain
His diaries are being published this month. I’ve never read his bios because I mean to say what is it going to say, his life was bad, he was depressed and did a lot of heroin and then shot himself in the head. But his diaries are some funny funny shit. He was really smart and really funny, without even meaning to be a lot of the time 🙂
“Hope I die before I become Pete Townsend” Mission accomplished.
He didn’t care much for the 12 steps either. Of course his solution to his drug problem was a little extreme even for the do it yourselfers here 😉
Check out the diaries. They aren’t edited, they are plates of his actual journals without any editing. Courtney Love must have one big habit right now 😉 $4 million for his notebooks. Undisclosed settlement for settling out of court with Dave Grohl to release the remaining Nirvana material.
Very strange world seeing “new” Nirvana material at #1 almost ten years later.
Peace out,
Curtis
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 6:25:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi, I don’t think you’re going to listen to anyone
either. None of the 70 or 80 people who did this
before you ever have before. But I’ll ask anyway. If
you don’t like people who are not following the rules
of whatever recovery you are doing, then why are you
here? That’s what I never understand. I don’t see
anyone from this list all over 12 step sites telling
them how lost they are, or going to meetings and
explaning how they’re wrong and they’re going to have
the meeting shut down.
They could be doing that I don’t have any way of
knowing, but somehow I don’t think so.
Why do you even think that way? If someone believes
something else they should be censored.
I don’t think you’ll reply, I think you post things
like this because you want people to respond to you.
You got your wish I guess.
Carla B
— Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from
the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The
crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by
little children I hope you are very proud of
yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have
7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from
heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you
have broken your brain from it and should be
medicated. I was trying to understand if this is
some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is
clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted
to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now
changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd
while he was struggling with his addiction but never
after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
have trappings with the occult. This is lies and
denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help
instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved
millions of lives. I am going to contact your system
admin and get this site pulled off the internet
ASAP.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 5:52:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That was really long and boring, resaid things that have been said 500
times about the CDA and Mindvox.
Patrick’s reply was better ‘please feel free to suck my dick’
This puts me to sleep and the CDA has been dead for at least 5 years.
Who cares.
.:vector:.
— ascending@hushmail.com wrote:
Not that I think you’re listening. You may be able to have small
sites which are hosted shut down if the service provider doesn’t want
to deal with being harassed. Usually the terms and conditions
indicate that they have the right to deny you access for any reason
they want to.
If you own the servers then the upstream provider will be listening
if you are mass mailing spam or providing kiddie porn. Before you get
a bright idea, you’d have to prove this. Looking up Mindvox they are
their own upstream provider too, or they are on a private network
which doesn’t sell colocation services. Which means someone in
Mindvox, Inc. is a partner or owns a lot of shares. This private
network is hosting one set of servers, Mindvox. Mindvox is hosting in
the neighborhood of 85 web sites. And looking up their DNS, that’s
over in Canada. Probably so if something happens in the United States
they can move their servers to another country and can’t be shut down
since the A record isn’t in the US.
Good luck.
The CDA Communications Decency Act was a large movement of people
like you who wanted to officially censor and label the entire net in
mid 90’s. Mindvox is listed in every court document and if I remember
right, Bruce Fancher is online somewhere on CNN debating why the CDA
will destroy the internet. It’s not in the Mindvox media kit or I
can’t find it. The CDA became law in NY for 1 year, I think Mindvox
moved to Maryland, the CDA debate then went to the Supreme Court and
was declared unconstitutional and struck down.
That was a few years ago with Clinton. Right now I’m sure it would
pass.
The real question is why do you go all over the internet harassing
people who are not forcing you to view their content and think
everyone should be accountable to you?
On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:47 -0800 Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties
that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the
nonsense
being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to
understand
if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
psychedelic
cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed
drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and
are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while
he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean.
Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult.
This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to
contact
your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: [vox] Broward reports wrong vote totals/ One party
Date: November 8, 2002 at 5:49:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From the Vox list.
.:vector:.
— Marguerite <mcc@berryhilllodge.com> wrote:
Diebold – The face of modern ballot tampering
http://www.bartcop.com/110702otter.htm
<http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/4460196.htm>http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/4460196.htm
Posted on Wed, Nov. 06, 2002
topstory_fromthe_txt.gifarchives_title.gif spacer.gif
spacer.gif
Broward reports wrong vote totals
By EVAN S. BENN
<mailto:ebenn@herald.com>ebenn@herald.com
More than 100,000 votes went missing on Tuesday between the time
they were
counted by electronic machines and the time they were reported on
cable-access television and on the Supervisor of Elections web site.
A glitch in the vote reporting system left a 104,000-vote difference
between Tuesday night’s totals and those reported late Wednesday.
Election officials said the error has no effect on the outcome of
any
races, though voter turnout jumped from 35 percent to 45 percent
after it
was corrected.
And it raises questions about how the supervisor’s office could have
missed that many votes.
”The initial reports didn’t include everything we tabulated,”
Deputy
Supervisor Joe Cotter said. “It was a minor software thing. Once we
realized it, we took the proper steps to fix it.”
Before the county canvassing board members went home early
Wednesday, they
saw a discrepancy in the vote reports, which showed 402,951 people
voted
in the governor’s race, but only 337,976 total ballots were cast.
”That was the red flag,” said Charles Lindsey, an election monitor
from
the state Division of Elections.
Supervisor of Elections Miriam Oliphant said the problem was
”small,”
but admitted she didn’t know what prompted it. ”That’s what the
technical
folks, the [Election Systems & Software] people, are trying to
figure
out,” she said.
The canvassing board plans to meet at 9:30 tonight to certify all
the
votes, except for about 3,000 provisional ballots. Those will be
certified
Thursday morning, before the canvassing board releases official
tallies to
the state.
__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: ascending@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 5:31:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Not that I think you’re listening. You may be able to have small sites which are hosted shut down if the service provider doesn’t want to deal with being harassed. Usually the terms and conditions indicate that they have the right to deny you access for any reason they want to.
If you own the servers then the upstream provider will be listening if you are mass mailing spam or providing kiddie porn. Before you get a bright idea, you’d have to prove this. Looking up Mindvox they are their own upstream provider too, or they are on a private network which doesn’t sell colocation services. Which means someone in Mindvox, Inc. is a partner or owns a lot of shares. This private network is hosting one set of servers, Mindvox. Mindvox is hosting in the neighborhood of 85 web sites. And looking up their DNS, that’s over in Canada. Probably so if something happens in the United States they can move their servers to another country and can’t be shut down since the A record isn’t in the US.
Good luck.
The CDA Communications Decency Act was a large movement of people like you who wanted to officially censor and label the entire net in mid 90’s. Mindvox is listed in every court document and if I remember right, Bruce Fancher is online somewhere on CNN debating why the CDA will destroy the internet. It’s not in the Mindvox media kit or I can’t find it. The CDA became law in NY for 1 year, I think Mindvox moved to Maryland, the CDA debate then went to the Supreme Court and was declared unconstitutional and struck down.
That was a few years ago with Clinton. Right now I’m sure it would pass.
The real question is why do you go all over the internet harassing people who are not forcing you to view their content and think everyone should be accountable to you?
On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:47 -0800 Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties
that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense
being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to understand
if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic
cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed
drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and
are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while
he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean.
Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult.
This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact
your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 3:19:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Some info on Bill Wilson doing LSD – but then you
can’t trust thost drunks at AA to tell the truth.
Brett
http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/pass_it_on.html
Alcoholics Anonymous. (1984).
New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc
ISBN: 0-916856-12-7
Description: Hardcover, 429 pages.
Contents: Foreword, 25 chapters, afterword,
significant dates, Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous, Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous,
sources.
Excerpt(s): As he [Bill Wilson] observed the work
closely, he arrived at this conclusion: It was not
“the material itself [that] actually produces these
experiences. It seems to have the result of sharply
reducing the forces of the ego temporarily, of
course. It is a generally acknowledged fact in
spiritual development that ego reduction makes the
influx of God’s grace possible. If, therefore, under
LSD we can have a temporary reduction, so that we can
better see what we are and where we are going well,
that might be of some help. The goal might become
clearer. So I consider LSD to be of some value to some
people, and practically no damage to anyone. It will
never take the place of any of the existing means by
which we can reduce the ego, and keep it reduced.”
(page 370)
Nell continues her story: “Anyway, Bill wanted to see
what it was like. He was intrigued with the work that
Osmond and Hoffer were doing in Saskatoon with
alcoholics. And he thought: ‘Anything that helps the
alcoholics is good and shouldn’t be dismissed out of
hand. Techniques should be explored that would help
some guy or gal recover who could not do it through
A.A. or any other way.’ He gave his full enthusiasm
[to] what other people were doing along that line.
That’s why he took it himself. He had an experience
[that] was totally spiritual, [like] his initial
spiritual experience.”
Bill first took LSD in California, under the guidance
of Gerald Heard. Also present was Sidney Cohen,
psychiatrist at the Veterans Administration Hospital.
The date was August 29, 1956. Tom P. was there, and he
and Gerald Heard took notes about the events of the
afternoon.
Bill was enthusiastic about his experience; he felt it
helped him eliminate many barriers erected by the
self, or ego, that stand in the way of one’s direct
experience of the cosmos and of God. (pages 370-371).
Compilation copyright © 1995 2001 CSP
__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:51:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 07:07:47PM -1100], [Hal Lindey] wrote:
| This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that
| I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being
| read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites
| have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and
| melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to
| becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it
| and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some
| joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for
| addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming
| addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the
| truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his
| addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
| have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get
| help until you accept your denial.
Uhm, whut somebody said is correct. We are blocked by every censorware
site on the planet, and have taken no particular action to get around
this.
All that without a single photo of a naked chick (the horror!)
| Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
| fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
| system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
I also hafta admit I have had a truly shit day, but thank you. I’ve just
spent ’bout 5 minutes laughing. Wait, er, no, I meant to say, I was
SHOCKED, OUTRAGED, DISGUSTED!
Anywaze, on behalf of system administration: please feel free to suck my
dick. If you have a problem with views expressed herein, please feel free
to contact our upstream provider. You will be complaint #195,917. Your
email will never be responded to; if you somehow manage to get a human
being, I’m sure they will be greatly concerned: “And, THEY said something
which I didn’t agree with!!!!!!11@!!”
<Flipping through script> <Handing you your next lines> This is the part
where you threaten to sue us, kill us with your love and goodwill, and/or
have us arrested.
Have a great life do0d,
Patrick
p.s., I will set up the after ibogaine list in a few hours and post
further infomayshun here.
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd in 1960 it was 1956
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:06:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Look i hate to say it but i was shocked when i heard the news i have
been going to n.a. for 4 years and A.A. the past 3 years and
predominently A.A. and i’ve personally seen people get alot of faith
there and now they have a defense against addiction.It’s not a cure
but it heps you interact with other people in a similar
sircumstance’s. But Bill W. is not God! Just cuz he did LSD-25 under
the aid of trained psycologists. and PROMOTED IT FROM 1956-1959
doesn’t mean he represents A.A. or the views of! He’s just a human.
Hate to break the news !! Heres a site a friend showed me its some
of the truth about A.A. Oh and in A.A. they only deal with alcohol.
See when bill took acid that first time. And LOTS of other A.A’s
were upset and said he lost his sober time but he said it really
helps with opening your mind to a spiritual place.He first took
Belladonna in 1955 or 56 and he thinks it helped him get in contact
with his higher power! Anyways it states directly in i think the 5th
tradition that A.A. does not recognize drug addiction only
alcohol.So if you shoot heroin then go to A.A. you can say i shot
dope today but atleast i’m sober! from alcohol! dumn huh? and you
can shoot only heroin for 1 year strait and as long as you don’t
drink you still have a year sober.Witch i think is absolute horse
shit on a stick that’s been removed from a lepers anal wort yeast
infected herpied asshole thats been dipped in cum and pussy juice
from aids patients that had an orgy right before one puked up her
hemaphrodidic veins mixed with brains of a suicide victim thats been
sitting in the hot sun with maggots crawling all threw it yep thats
what i think! SOOO THERE!!! Except for all the gross stuff at the
end i truly believe that Bill W. took LSD-25 and it DID help him
with his EGO breakdown and mind opening. I know for a fact that
Hallucinogens under the right SET and SETTING can have life changing
and Thought improving aspects to them. And i also know for a fact
that MDMA can help psycalogically as well i did MDMA therapy 11
months ago and i had amazing breakthrews usually it takes me weeks
to get comfortable enough to mention i was sexually abused as a kid
and directly because of thatsesion i can openly talk about my uncle
M.A.H. and how he sexually abused me and i no longer carry the guilt
around.MDMA did for me what i could not do for myslf.Its unfortunate
that the goverment has to ruinit for everybody just cuz they want
people to vote for them it is discusting. But yes i think you can
here the anger in my voice i think i need to do some soul serching
but my ego always gets in the way Yours Truly EGODEATH.COM
YOURS TRULY NIK http://open-mind.org/News/AA/11.htm
— Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties
that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the
nonsense being read by little children I hope you are very proud
of yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th
graders discussing crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have
done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming addicted to
psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should be
medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving
addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction.
Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming
addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now
changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was
struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean. Bill
Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This is
lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of
mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am
going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off
the internet ASAP.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3
Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
__________________________________________________
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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 12:12:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
> You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
> Get me off this list.
E.g. don’t help him get off the list until he accepts his denial.
A beautiful letter – I wish I had the time to cook up stuff like
that.
Bill
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 12:02:51 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list.
Hilarious! But sad..
Bill
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 10:41:18 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Lies and denial? You are obviously ignorant of the facts. Bill W.’s
biography…PUBLISHED BY AA WORLD SERVICES, by the way, clearly relates
that Bill used LSD and promoted the use of same between 1956-1959. It
certainly isn’t denied by the AA authorities. As far as doing it while
he struggled with his addiction, I don’t think so. He stopped drinking
in 1935. He didn’t use LSD until 1956. Albert Hoffman didn’t even
discover it until 1943.
You state that we are “now changing the truth.” I think you should
turn the mirror around and take a hard look at the FACT that for some
reason, you are unwilling and/or unable to cope with what the actual
truth is on the matter.
You further state “Not one of you is clean.” What do you base this
assumption on? I don’t smoke. I drink 2-3 glasses of wine per month.
Since 1988 I have used Salvia Divinorum on one occasion. I have also
used LA-111 one one occasion since 1988. So yeah, I guess I’m just
“dirty.” I run marathons for fun, study 1-2 hours per day, and work out
3x per week. I go to Church every Sunday, have four kids and am happily
married for 11 years now. I have an MA, and am also a MCSE, and will
likely pursue a PhD. I can honestly say I’m not addicted to anything.
Not one bit of it came as a result of ‘sitting in the rooms.”
As far as your statmement “the fellowship that has saved millions of
lives,” all I can say is, it seems pretty clear that you don’t
understand the concept of doing research, as you’ve already made
up…closed…your mind. Read the research sir. AA/NA is only taking
credit for the cases of spontaneous remission. I’m sure it works well
as a systematic approach for a number of people…but it isn’t
statistically relevant. I’m glad it works for you. AA’s very own GAO
publishes admittedly dismal numbers. Check your facts.
You have a small mind and I doubt the “system admin” will hear your
pleas, unless “the crazy boy” somehow finds your comments reasonable.
(I’m in a bad mood today, by the way)
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
hlindsey1@lycos.com 11/08/02 01:07AM >>>
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that
I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being
read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites
have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and
melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to
becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it
and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some
joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for
addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming
addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the
truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his
addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get
help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 8, 2002 at 9:45:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Jon
Speaking of quitting smoking….does anyone know how
effective ibogaine is
with that?
Which one <g>.
Yes, ibo does work for quitting cigarettes. Several
times when I was “treated” as a side effect or some
deliberate thought behind it I stopped cigarettes for
a while (days/weeks) but at the time I had “other”
things more important on my mind – quitting smoking
was not primary importance. Then I ran out of
addictions and demons, till all I was left with was
cigarettes (well, sort of).
The last time I did ibo I did it without any “plan” to
quit, just went into it without any agenda and let it
do whatever it wanted to do. I DID NOT stop smoking,
smoked (but the thought was kind of there, it always
was…) throughout the experience and after. But I had
been kicking myself in the ass about wanting to quit
for a while, some thoughts about it were bouncing
around my head more than usual after the ibo session
and a week after I did the ibo – I tossed the
cigarettes. I did NOT try to quit, I was not
“quitting”, there was no stop smoking plan of action,
no I will do it in the morning cause I already smoked
– no games at all. From the very second (well, maybe a
minute or two) I made that decision, I was a
NON-SMOKER, no question, no doubt, none of those
little addiction games that are so much fun… I
picked up the pack and tossed em, never looked back –
but sure I had some special “moments” where it grabbed
me with a craving now and then. That made it quite
easy actually. That was 4 months ago, I still chew
some nicorette but will stop soon.
I quit heroin and cocaine 4 years ago (before i knew
Yeah, well I gave up all “that shit” and to think I
was now killing myself with cigarettes… I refused to
do it. I didn’t want yet another “regret” later on in
life for the things I did now…
what ibogaine was),
but i just can’t seem to quit smoking… cigarettes
that is, i don’t have
any desire to quit smoking pot… =)
Ummm, when I quit cigarettes, I found myself smoking
more of something else – this is not something I
usually do much of (mostly for nausea from headaches
and the pain itself). So, I just stopped – hear that,
just stopped smoking pot, simple, not a problem,
didn’t need ibogaine, no “treatment” or therapy, just
a little sleeplessness (on top of some sleeplessness
from quitting smoking AND I have found Nicorette
causes me problems sleeping) – and NO, I didn’t take
any sleeping pills or “something else”. NOT that I
would pass it up at a party but I can’t keep it around
like some people can’t keep ice cream in the freezer
or they will eat it. POOF, done with, it is just a
matter of doing some motions after that. Why did I
stop smoking “the other stuff”, cause I was not
comfortable smoking as much as I started to after
quitting cigarettes – pretty much.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander
userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–
–
————————————————————————–
“We are all prisoners of our minds. This realization
is the first step
on the journey to freedom.”
— Ram Dass
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 8:23:11 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hal, whoever or whatever you are
Thanks for your post, that was one real sick piece of
work, very good. What a GREAT way to start the day.
You have me in rolling in laughter, that was so funny,
absolutely hillarious!
Nice to see someone with a real sense of humor around
here for a change…
Brett
— Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from
the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The
crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by
little children I hope you are very proud of
yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have
7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from
heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you
have broken your brain from it and should be
medicated. I was trying to understand if this is
some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this
psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is
clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted
to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now
changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd
while he was struggling with his addiction but never
after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not
have trappings with the occult. This is lies and
denial. You can’t get help until you accept your
denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help
instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved
millions of lives. I am going to contact your system
admin and get this site pulled off the internet
ASAP.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB
Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 7:19:40 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.<
Exactly why the War continues. “Can’t stand what yer saying so let me try and shut you down.”
What a sad way to live life.
Good luck and peace to you.
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Hal Lindey
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:07 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] somethings run in the family ,
Date: November 8, 2002 at 6:21:19 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Just came across mention of Max Glatt in that “Pursuit of Oblivion” book I’m reading, more a quote about heroin addiction from someone being treated by him, not actually about Max Glatt himself.
Just thought I’d share that.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: sara glatt
To: ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl ; ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] somethings run in the family ,
Max Glatt
Pioneer in the treatment of alcohol and drug addicts
Silvio Benaim
Saturday May 25, 2002
The Guardian
Max Glatt, who has died aged 90, was one of the pioneers in the treatment and rehabilitation of alcoholics and drug addicts. Perhaps more than anyone else, he was responsible for a change in attitude – from one that regarded alcoholics as nuisances to one that saw them as patients requiring treatment.
Born in Berlin into a prosperous middle-class family (his father was an insurance broker), Max was destined for a prestigious academic career in medicine but the racial laws of the time made it practically impossible for Jews to gain a university appointment. Even so, in 1936, Max was awarded a doctorate in neurological medicine at Leipzig University. He should have left Germany then but he delayed his departure. When, after Kristallnacht in 1938, he tried to escape to Holland, he was captured by frontier guards and taken to Dachau. He later learned that, at the same time, his parents were taken to a concentration camp in Estonia where they were eventually killed. His sister, who had been smuggled across the border into Holland, was the only other member of his family to survive.
Max, the eternal optimist, the man who saw no evil in his fellow human beings, was forced to review his beliefs and his attitudes. But this did not lead to bitterness. He returned to Germany to lecture and to receive honours from various universities. He remained interested in his native country, particularly in the experiences of those who, like the Bielenbergs, had remained in Germany while in opposition to the Nazi regime.
Max arrived in England in 1940. He was soon classified as an enemy alien and was sent to Australia. By 1942, he was back in this country and his medical career, which was to stretch over 60 years, took off.
His work began – as it was to continue – in psychiatric hospitals. From early on he had decided to dedicate himself to the treatment of alcohol and drug addicts. He identified with them, seeing them as people who had been stigmatised and made to feel unwelcome.
In 1952, he set up the first NHS unit for the treatment of alcoholism at Warlingham Park Hospital in Croydon. In 1962 he set up a unit for the treatment of both alcoholism and drug addiction at St Bernards Hospital, in Ealing, west London, a unit that is now called the Max Glatt Centre. Both units as well as further centres, private and NHS, in which he was involved were run on group lines on therapeutic community principles. He set up the first treatment unit in a prison – Wormwood Scrubs – which now also bears his name and where he continued to run groups until just before his death. There, his interest in football helped him to forge a close relationship with the inmates who named their football team “the Glatt Dynamos”.
Max was on the honorary staff of four London teaching hospitals and taught their students. He chaired or sat on countless committees and was an adviser on alcohol and drug addiction to the WHO. He advised the BMA, the Home Office, the royal colleges and many other interested bodies. He was the cofounder of the Medical Council on Alcoholism and of the National Council on Alcoholism. He edited journals on alcohol and drug addiction and wrote a full and comprehensive textbook, entitled Alcoholism, which was first published in the 1960s. He often gave it to his patients.
He received many honorary degrees in this country and abroad and was held in high esteem by his colleagues.
Max was universally liked and admired. He understood both alcohol and drug addicts, was never censorious and seldom gave up hope. This enabled patients to open up to him both in group and individual sessions. He used to say that he was addicted to addicts.
He was a quiet, modest and gentle person with a sharp sense of humour and an infectious smile. He was deeply religious, devoted to his wife and family and of course to his work. He ran his weekly group at the Florence Nightingale Hospital until he suffered a fall from which he never recovered.
Max Meier Glatt, doctor, born January 26 1912; died May 14 2002
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 3:02:41 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Cc: <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
“I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the
internet ASAP.”
Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!
Whew! Good one! Man, can we get him back? Some comic relief is always
welcome …
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hal Lindey” <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d
hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by
little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all
banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming
addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should
be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving
addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of
you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics
like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have
done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was
clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This
is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 2:11:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, ccadden wrote:
I did acid with Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, and then we worshipped satan
together. We asked him to send us a demon to amuse us, and we got him—it
was you.
man, you forgot the anal sex orgy.
you can’t forget the anal sex orgy!
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“We are all prisoners of our minds. This realization is the first step
on the journey to freedom.”
— Ram Dass
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 2:09:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, Hal Lindey wrote:
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
ahaha. oh dear….please tell me this is patrick on a fake account fucking
with us!
=)
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: November 8, 2002 at 2:03:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, steve diamond wrote:
They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling year
old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them about
Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products they
should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.
not that i’m defending them in any way, because this is none of my
business anyway and whatnot, but i was under the impression that ibogaine
and/or iboga extracts generally didn’t lose potency over time….is that
incorrect?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:38:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I did acid with Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, and then we worshipped satan
together. We asked him to send us a demon to amuse us, and we got him—it
was you.
Chris
—– Original Message —–
From: “Hal Lindey” <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:07 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d
hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read
by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have
all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting
syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming
addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should
be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving
addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of
you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics
like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have
done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was
clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This
is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the
fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your
system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:31:31 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
ibogaine-unsubscribe@mindvox.com
In reply who cares. You’re also the same asshole who posts 1000 stupid
messages on every entheogen web site on the internet how all of them
are being watched and will be shut down. I’m sure the system admin will
care deeply, since the system admin who owns all the computers that run
Mindvox is the same person who runs this list.
That’s you. Lindey and Lindsey, sometimes Hlind also. You had a bad
acid trip right?
And if Mindvox is banned on all k12 sites which it is, it’s also banned
on net nanny, net watch, all those censorship organizations. Then how
are 7th graders reading it from school? Derrr.
I don’t care what Bill Wilson did or didn’t do. He’s not my guide to
life. If he liked to do up LSD or not doesn’t make any difference to
anybody except 12 step cult members.
.:vector:.
— Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that
I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense
being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself,
k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing
crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs
from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken
your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to
understand if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies
this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You
have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and
ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done
lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was
clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the
occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept
your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking
the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to
contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet
ASAP.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:24:27 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You, my friend, must be smoking some good shit. Mundo.
Hal Lindey <hlindsey1@lycos.com> wrote:
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:15:06 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ibogaine is suppsed to help that too. The cigarette addiction.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jon Freedlander” <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Brett Calabrese wrote:
Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.
Speaking of quitting smoking….does anyone know how effective ibogaine
is
with that?
I quit heroin and cocaine 4 years ago (before i knew what ibogaine was),
but i just can’t seem to quit smoking… cigarettes that is, i don’t have
any desire to quit smoking pot… =)
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–
–
————————————————————————-
–
“We are all prisoners of our minds. This realization is the first step
on the journey to freedom.”
— Ram Dass
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:11:04 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Brett Calabrese wrote:
Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.
Speaking of quitting smoking….does anyone know how effective ibogaine is
with that?
I quit heroin and cocaine 4 years ago (before i knew what ibogaine was),
but i just can’t seem to quit smoking… cigarettes that is, i don’t have
any desire to quit smoking pot… =)
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“We are all prisoners of our minds. This realization is the first step
on the journey to freedom.”
— Ram Dass
From: “Hal Lindey” <hlindsey1@lycos.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill WIlson did not do lsd
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:07:47 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
This site and all you here are like a bad party from the sixties that I’d hoped to have forgotten. The crazy boy who writes the nonsense being read by little children I hope you are very proud of yourself, k12 sites have all banned you and you have 7th graders discussing crackpipes and melting syringes. All you have done is switched drugs from heroin to becoming addicted to psychedelics and you have broken your brain from it and should be medicated. I was trying to understand if this is some joke, giving addicts marijuana brownies this psychedelic cure for addiction. Not one of you is clean. You have all changed drugs becoming addicted to psychedelics like lsd and ibogaine and are now changing the truth. Bill Wilson may have done lsd while he was struggling with his addiction but never after he was clean. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob did not have trappings with the occult. This is lies and denial. You can’t get help until you accept your denial.
Get me off this list. All of you should get help instead of mocking the fellowship that has saved millions of lives. I am going to contact your system admin and get this site pulled off the internet ASAP.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 8, 2002 at 1:02:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Brett Calabrese wrote:
It is not AA/12 steps that bother me so much as the
interpretation/people that I have a problem with in
the “rooms”, with their boogy-man disease is going to
get you if you don’t do these things or do those
things. Yeah, yeah, take what you need… right, it
is just so depressing for me – BUT finally I can go to
meetings and not want to use when I come out. That is
NOT a joke and NOT funny and is the reason I stopped
going.
You’re definately not alone in that experience. Maybe it just goes to
prove that i’m a bastard, but after sitting through an NA meeting, i felt
so enraged at the group think, at the destruction of personality, the best
thing to do to get back at them (in my twisted junky mind) was to go out and
use, with a vengence
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] to Steve Diamond
Date: November 7, 2002 at 8:54:15 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Steve, where are you in North America? Do you still ride theTriumph?
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling
year
old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them about
Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products they
should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am
desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.
I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a plane
ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything
resembling a heart.
Steve Diamond
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000
re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed me
the
following:
Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months ago –
it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as
medium.
I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was harvested
right
before shipment.
Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about
quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the saleslist
and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources – we
prefer to trade with locals.
Regards
Claus
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: November 7, 2002 at 5:54:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
They have no interest in cheating their customers but they are selling year old garbage and not willing to refund money. How about asking them about Steve Diamond’s order? If they are willing to stand by their products they should be willing to refund me. I need the money to go to Canada. I am desperate. Nobody has been willing to buy my Triumph yet.
I would be happy with even a 1/2 refund of $170. That will pay for a plane ticket. They should be willing to split the cost if they have anything resembling a heart.
Steve Diamond
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>,<ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:50:16 -0000
re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed me the
following:
Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months ago – it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as medium. I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was harvested right
before shipment.
Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the saleslist and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources – we
prefer to trade with locals.
Regards
Claus
_________________________________________________________________
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From: “steve diamond” <stevediamond79@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 7, 2002 at 5:34:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To me, the main difference between opiates and pot is the physical addiction. Americans are proud of independence in every sense of the world. Heroin robs a person of independence because, once addicted, a person becomes impotent without it. Nothing can happen before an addict gets “fixed.” The fact of the matter is even the most ardent pot head can still go to work, go to the movies or get laid if he misses a much desired bong hit.
Another big difference is the amount of time wasted by the heroin addict copping. Most heroin addicts are incapable of keeping more than one day’s supply on hand without using it. Consequently, they must go out and buy dope on a daily basis. Even in the most regular purchasing environments, problems arise. Dealers sell out. Cops chase them off. Beat artists sell fake dope, requiring a second trip to cop. Nothing is worse to the heroin addict than getting home and using a beat bag of dope. Instantly, the addict becomes twice as sick as he was in the first place. His brain tricks him into being sick. At that point the desire to use, to fix, becomes overwhelming to many. Kids’ piggy banks are not safe. Items of value may go to the pawn shop. The rent, tax money, the money for a father’s grave stone – all of it is at immeidate risk. Jobs, relationships, virtually anything of value becomes secondary to fixing the problem. Life itself is without value to the dope sick heroin addict. What is the point of living if this is what life feels like? If life has little value, what is the value of a material object if it can be traded for not wanting to kill ones self? So what if it is the family silverware that has been in the family for generations? I would not miss it if I were dead.
The next thing is the money involved. As a habit grows so does the cost. Show me a pot head who can smoke $500 per day of weed and I’ll show you somebody who is smoking oregano.
Otherwise, people with a regular supply of consistent quality dope can be very productive. The chief of surgery at Johns Hopkins University in the early 1900’s was a morphine addict. He shot morphine on a daily basis and ran the surgical department very well. I know other dope fiends who are highly functional.
Is the answer abstinence or availability? I guess England is trying to answer that question now. I vote for both. Methadone addiction is far worse than heroin. Addicts not ready to try living clean should have access to a ready supply of clean dope at a cheap cost. It would make safe children’s piggy banks and empty many jail cells. The taxes made from selling dope could finance treatment centers offering ibogaine, bupe, 12 steps, electroshock therapy – what ever works.
still strung out and losing hope – steve
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:21:47 -0800
I won’t pretend to answer for Marc … but, for one thing, quitting heroin
after using for a while is a physically debilitating process, very much so –
it can even kill you, in severe cases. There is also tolerance. Most heroin
addicts are just trying to feel normal when they get a fix, to avoid
kicking, as their tolerance has developed for it, and the high is
diminished. This happens to an extent with mj, but save for the heaviest
smokers, even consistent, daily users get high – they aren’t trying to reach
up to baseline or avoid withdrawals. Here’s something to consider – if you
smoked pot every day for six months, you could quit easily. Of course some
people really do not want to, and there may be some psychological dependence
for some. But if you did heroin every day for six months, quitting cold
turkey wouldn’t be so pleasant. This becomes more and more difficult as time
goes by. For most pot smokers, it’s self-limiting. Many people reach an age
where they don’t want to smoke anymore, or maybe not as often. Such
transitions seem to be quite simple for them. Of course, there are people
who will develop dependence on many things, and pot may be a part of that,
but it’s surely not on the same level of addiction as tobacco. We are
hearing now about Snoop Dogg quitting smoking herb, but I haven’t heard
anything about him going in for detox or even rehab. Maybe he’s getting
counselling, not sure … but he’s not strapped to a bed.
All that said, I think that demonizing the user is ultimately destructive.
We see stoners on TV and movies and laugh, and see junkies and cringe. It’s
that fear, deep within ourselves, that this reveals: the fear of loss of
control. The junkie is the archetype of the individual who has lost control,
even if that may not entirely be true in individual situations. We fear
this, though, the unchecked Id, the Superego having been drowned out, to put
it in Freudian terms. This is the source of much guilt and shame, and is the
basis of 12-step programs, with even their meetings consisting of many
confessionals. So, we fear losing control, and we are loathe to see anyone
else in that situation – we fear that part of ourselves, the compulsive and
obsessive part. All entheogens and intoxicants are treated this way by many
societies with a Puritanical streak. Part of that shameful perspective, and
something that came up in the drugwar list, is that getting “high” is seen
as a “bad” thing. Ultimately, it’s very much a human thing, and sometimes
it’s a good thing, but of course that’s subjective. We see it as “escapism”
or “dependence,” even if the use is not at all that way. But each to his or
her own, and these things do have different effects. I feel no guilt about
my own marijuana use, though I can say positively that I would not want to
go through years of opioid use and/or addiction. Sounds like that road leads
to one of two places: sobriety from opioids or death. The same can be said
of alcoholics. And even then there will be people who buck the trend. But I
don’t see the same consequences with pot use. Some people lose motivation
and/or focus when smoking too much, but that’s a persoanl issue; it doesn’t
affect all people this way. OTOH, *anyone* who uses opioids for long enough
will become physically dependent on them.
For me, personally, marijuana is a miracle. It helped me get through chemo
due to cancer twelve years ago, and it helps me today in other ways. If it
weren’t illegal, I’d be a farmer, no joke. Depending on what happens, I may
yet get that chance.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
> Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
>
> I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
>
> What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
>
> Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Enquiry to the Medicines Control Agency RE: Tabernathe iboga
Date: November 7, 2002 at 1:27:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: AndriaE@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Enquiry to the Medicines Control Agency RE: Tabernathe iboga
Nick thanx for the info from MCA
What would be the story then IF someone was known to be administering it to others? Or is that not written about?
It’s complicated legally, and too much to get into really. If you give it to people you just have to hope the Great Spirit is with you and they don’t die, basically. If they do, you need to be prepared to go through the whole legal process and all that stuff.
Nick
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 7, 2002 at 1:32:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:17 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours after ingestion of
4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is experiencing an epiphany or
so.
Marc
Hi Marc,
When he comes down, be great to hear what happened to him, if he feels like
writing stuff. This, like painting and other expressive stuff, can also be
very integrating.
all the best and it’s great work you’re doing
Nick
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill W. Magical acid trips%$@&3rd^%#&eye&$69#$^%96%#
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:37:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Put your hands on PASS IT ON: The story of Bill Wilson and how the AA
message reached the world. Published by AA world Services, 1984.
Chapter 23 gives a good summary.
Brief mention is given of his Belladonna treatment in the AA Big Book.
It is barely noted in Pass it On. Belladonna, as you may or may not
know, was the primary ingredient in “witches brew,” applied to
“broomsticks” and was inserted vaginally, thus enabling witches to
“fly.”
Here’s an interesting link: http://open-mind.org/News/AA/11.htm
I haven’t read the following yet, but see also:
Bill W. and Mr. Wilson — The Legend and Life of A.A.’s Cofounder
Matthew J. Raphael
University of Massachusetts Press, Amherst, Mass., 2000.
ISBN 1-55849-245-3
Library Call Number B W11r 2000
This book was written by another stepper — the name ‘Matthew Raphael’
is a pen name — and it generally praises Bill Wilson and recites the
party line about most things, but it also contains a bunch of surprises,
like detailing Bill’s sexual infidelities, his and Bob’s spook sessions
— talking to the ‘spirits’ in seances through the use of Ouija boards,
spirit rapping, clairvoyance, and levitation — LSD use, and
publicity-hound megalomania.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] somethings run in the family ,
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:37:13 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Max Glatt
Pioneer in the treatment of alcohol and drug addicts
Silvio Benaim
Saturday May 25, 2002
The Guardian
Max Glatt, who has died aged 90, was one of the pioneers in the treatment and rehabilitation of alcoholics and drug addicts. Perhaps more than anyone else, he was responsible for a change in attitude – from one that regarded alcoholics as nuisances to one that saw them as patients requiring treatment.
Born in Berlin into a prosperous middle-class family (his father was an insurance broker), Max was destined for a prestigious academic career in medicine but the racial laws of the time made it practically impossible for Jews to gain a university appointment. Even so, in 1936, Max was awarded a doctorate in neurological medicine at Leipzig University. He should have left Germany then but he delayed his departure. When, after Kristallnacht in 1938, he tried to escape to Holland, he was captured by frontier guards and taken to Dachau. He later learned that, at the same time, his parents were taken to a concentration camp in Estonia where they were eventually killed. His sister, who had been smuggled across the border into Holland, was the only other member of his family to survive.
Max, the eternal optimist, the man who saw no evil in his fellow human beings, was forced to review his beliefs and his attitudes. But this did not lead to bitterness. He returned to Germany to lecture and to receive honours >from various universities. He remained interested in his native country, particularly in the experiences of those who, like the Bielenbergs, had remained in Germany while in opposition to the Nazi regime.
Max arrived in England in 1940. He was soon classified as an enemy alien and was sent to Australia. By 1942, he was back in this country and his medical career, which was to stretch over 60 years, took off.
His work began – as it was to continue – in psychiatric hospitals. From early on he had decided to dedicate himself to the treatment of alcohol and drug addicts. He identified with them, seeing them as people who had been stigmatised and made to feel unwelcome.
In 1952, he set up the first NHS unit for the treatment of alcoholism at Warlingham Park Hospital in Croydon. In 1962 he set up a unit for the treatment of both alcoholism and drug addiction at St Bernards Hospital, in Ealing, west London, a unit that is now called the Max Glatt Centre. Both units as well as further centres, private and NHS, in which he was involved were run on group lines on therapeutic community principles. He set up the first treatment unit in a prison – Wormwood Scrubs – which now also bears his name and where he continued to run groups until just before his death. There, his interest in football helped him to forge a close relationship with the inmates who named their football team “the Glatt Dynamos”.
Max was on the honorary staff of four London teaching hospitals and taught their students. He chaired or sat on countless committees and was an adviser on alcohol and drug addiction to the WHO. He advised the BMA, the Home Office, the royal colleges and many other interested bodies. He was the cofounder of the Medical Council on Alcoholism and of the National Council on Alcoholism. He edited journals on alcohol and drug addiction and wrote a full and comprehensive textbook, entitled Alcoholism, which was first published in the 1960s. He often gave it to his patients.
He received many honorary degrees in this country and abroad and was held in high esteem by his colleagues.
Max was universally liked and admired. He understood both alcohol and drug addicts, was never censorious and seldom gave up hope. This enabled patients to open up to him both in group and individual sessions. He used to say that he was addicted to addicts.
He was a quiet, modest and gentle person with a sharp sense of humour and an infectious smile. He was deeply religious, devoted to his wife and family and of course to his work. He ran his weekly group at the Florence Nightingale Hospital until he suffered a fall from which he never recovered.
Max Meier Glatt, doctor, born January 26 1912; died May 14 2002
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:30:29 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: “MARC” <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
By not charging people, I am also not breaking any laws, since ibogaine is
unscheduled and by not charging money I am not practicing medicine without
a
licence.
When there is no charge I am merely assisting a self-administering
friend, entirely legal.
Also, since I am an apprentice iboga practitioner, I
consider this my education period. Education costs. So my payment is a few
years of free service to the cause of assisting drug addicts to go clean,
and I learn plenty in the meantime. I see such impressive results already,
I
am not discouraged and I am happy to learn this way. My helpers are great,
and we are already looking at working a property as our therapy centre. If
wealthy people or others want to donate so we can enlarge the outreach,
that will be great. And that will happen, but later as I refine our
practice
and our objectives.
None of these addicts have any money anyway, and their families offer to
pay
(we accept their meals and accommodation when its not in our facility),
but
I decline the money. I feel much better right now having no monetary
interests, besides, its good karma to know the cannabis community is
ultimately paying to treat hard core drug addicts, another blessing on my
people for their good sense in sending me alot of money.
Sara, I hope you weren’t upset I am doing it for free. And you know I have
been there to help you when no one else could, that money I advanced your
way earlier this year (or was it even last year?) was from the cannabis
community through me, the same way I am treating addicts is the same way I
saved you from ?disaster?
Which your friend Dana caused me by sending to me his friends to learn
about Iboga and to ripp me off .They damaged me and my family for more then
30,000 dollars and left the country ,when I asked Dana to help me
give me my own money back ,
then he asked me to call you cause his money was to provid Barbie with
her great coloring book ,instead of giving me back for many treatments
and help I gave him in 2000 .
By the way Sascha has been here for a visit when Dana’s helping friends
were here, that was in march 2002 and in April the police came .
You can better ask Dana for favours because I have nothing to offer ,
if I had my money back I could pay you back .then you got enough
Iboga when you asked for it , so you can do two treatments for money
and get your money back .
I was hoping I could send Linette and Terry (my helpers) over to work with
you for a week or so as payback to me, so they could benefit by your
knowledge in exchange for the favour I extended to you.
I understand the idea of people appreciating what they pay for. I like the
freedom in choosing whom to treat (we have many applicants) without the
question of money. I choose the candidates that I want/can/seem likliest
to
help with based also on what we can learn from the experience, so its an
education for everyone involved.
That’s for sure and you have my blessings for it .there are millions of
addicts ,
Take care,
Sara
19@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
I want to thank Howard for sharing his knowledge , on web you can find
all
you like to know about Ibogaine and Iboga ,
treating people for no charge at all have less chance for success ,
Marc is a rich man who can do it all for nothing , but there are
treatment
providers who have no money to do what he does , who spend years
to get the knowledge and reputation , but who cares if its done for
nothing
it must be good ,
—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that
one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.
That’s very righteous of you.
.:vector:.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:
One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are
the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..
It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that
he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively. ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)
The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon,
who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at
the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m.
,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.
Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.
The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix.
It
went
straight to his psyche.
Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.
Marc Emery
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂
Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?
Thank you,
Carla B
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
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Do you Yahoo!?
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From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill W. Magical acid trips%$@&3rd^%#&eye&$69#$^%96%#
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:56:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Thank you rick you really opened my eyes and also helped disolve the
thought that bill and other original A.A.s did it on there own.
OH well thats life it’s just so funny to hear peoples reactions at
A.A meetings when i tell them about the LSD-25 thing.It’s so
funny.Thank you so much hey is there anymore info you have on the
subject?
— Rick Venglarcik <RickV@hnncsb.org> wrote:
Yup. think I posted something a few days ago about Bill’s LSD
experience. In case you missed it, he was an active promoter of
LSD use
for destruction and recreation of the ego (1956-1959). Approx. 1
year
prior to his “spiritual awakening,” he was treated with the
psychoactive
substance Belladonna (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME). This begs the
question…what was the impetus for Bill’s Spiritual awakening?
Not sure I would say that he used LSD to help with his alcoholism,
however. He’d been sober for 21 years prior to dosing.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Bill W. Magical acid trips%$@&&$%#
Date: November 7, 2002 at 11:00:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yup. think I posted something a few days ago about Bill’s LSD
experience. In case you missed it, he was an active promoter of LSD use
for destruction and recreation of the ego (1956-1959). Approx. 1 year
prior to his “spiritual awakening,” he was treated with the psychoactive
substance Belladonna (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME). This begs the
question…what was the impetus for Bill’s Spiritual awakening?
Not sure I would say that he used LSD to help with his alcoholism,
however. He’d been sober for 21 years prior to dosing.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Bill W. Magical acid trips%$@&&$%#
Date: November 7, 2002 at 10:50:18 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I just found out yesterday that bill W. THE founder of the countrys
first A.A. used to use Lysergic acid Diethelamide#25 to help w/his
alcaholism i have been doing lots of studies on this subject.Last
night i brought that up and i said to the group so is it considered
Relapsing if you take a drug with the intents for using it as a
medical aid to help with addiction.Well some of the old timers got
pissed and they wanted to deny the facts but they couldn’t.And then
clear out of the blue my friend and Ex junkie friend says well ive
used this stuff called ibogaine and i didnt consider it a relapse!!
WOW i said and needless to say i gave him the 100 questions
afterward.He said its a good thing but they promote it as a cure
when realy all it is is an aid to help with addiction.Thats were
alot of the misconception is.He also said 3 people did it with him
and two are clean i assked what happened with the 1 guy he said it
was a girl and he said that she said that she didn’t do any follow
up she just thought she was cured untill a month later when she was
dancing with the spike again oh well thats all folks!MEEPMEEP!
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 7:39:26 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Actually, I think Eric Taub’s website is similar. I beginagain,
The name ibeganagain was intended as a reference thereto.
ibeganigan..
The reference of “I have eaten” is to traditional African
usage, as I believe Howard can attest.
Bill
From: Randywalker57@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 7:04:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Actually, I think Eric Taub’s website is similar. I beginagain, I believe is
his site.
Randy
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 6:46:58 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Show me your
tracks or I won’t sell to you. <
Hmmm, sounds like Rikers Island. The docs there were the same way with their methadone. No tracks? Tough shit.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:33 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
On [Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 08:03:33PM -0500], [AndriaE@aol.com] wrote:
| U R not a leper! Several people on this list have used 12-steps to help
| through the roughest times, including myself.
They work out for sum people. You’re not a leper. If you are, I’m sure
they have a support group for that by now too. <group hug> <serenity
prayer>
| As for a list: mmh, last night I almost completely unsubscribed to this one
| due to lack of sleep.. Why don’t U ask around and on this list again, and see
| if people think there is a need for such a thing
Otay, name it. postibogaine, afteribogaine, ibogaine2thesequel. Whatcha
wannit called, I’ll make it tomorrow. I seem to have roughly 20 letters
to that effect. Sorta. They’re more like, “you need to DELETE asshole
#1, #15, and #27, I hate them and they suck. Why do they post to the
list??!?!?”
Basically, this is how DrugWar started in the first place. Which is to
say this list getting overloaded, overlapped, and filled up with too much
material.
And… Thusly, so, like… The criteria for entry is what…? Having
done ibogaine? Having done ibogaine to get unsprung? Show me your
tracks or I won’t sell to you. Give me Complete Documented Proof and a
blood sample. Or just like, take a lot of effort and lie in a convincing
manner…
Whatever. I’ll set it up tomorrow…
Patrick
p.s., I am reading my mail spool, I promise, for real, right now, even as
I write this I’m already starting.
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 5:25:22 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I gotta say that if you had been in operation when I was kicking, I most probably woulda tried my best to make it to Canada.;-))
Sounds like a much more interesting way to detox than any I went through.
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: MARC
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
By not charging people, I am also not breaking any laws, since ibogaine is
unscheduled and by not charging money I am not practicing medicine without a
licence. When there is no charge I am merely assisting a self-administering
friend, entirely legal. Also, since I am an apprentice iboga practitioner, I
consider this my education period. Education costs. So my payment is a few
years of free service to the cause of assisting drug addicts to go clean,
and I learn plenty in the meantime. I see such impressive results already, I
am not discouraged and I am happy to learn this way. My helpers are great,
and we are already looking at working a property as our therapy centre. If
wealthy people or others want to donate so we can enlarge the outreach,
that will be great. And that will happen, but later as I refine our practice
and our objectives.
None of these addicts have any money anyway, and their families offer to pay
(we accept their meals and accommodation when its not in our facility), but
I decline the money. I feel much better right now having no monetary
interests, besides, its good karma to know the cannabis community is
ultimately paying to treat hard core drug addicts, another blessing on my
people for their good sense in sending me alot of money.
Sara, I hope you weren’t upset I am doing it for free. And you know I have
been there to help you when no one else could, that money I advanced your
way earlier this year (or was it even last year?) was from the cannabis
community through me, the same way I am treating addicts is the same way I
saved you from ?disaster?
I was hoping I could send Linette and Terry (my helpers) over to work with
you for a week or so as payback to me, so they could benefit by your
knowledge in exchange for the favour I extended to you.
I understand the idea of people appreciating what they pay for. I like the
freedom in choosing whom to treat (we have many applicants) without the
question of money. I choose the candidates that I want/can/seem likliest to
help with based also on what we can learn from the experience, so its an
education for everyone involved.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
> I want to thank Howard for sharing his knowledge , on web you can find all
> you like to know about Ibogaine and Iboga ,
>
> treating people for no charge at all have less chance for success ,
> Marc is a rich man who can do it all for nothing , but there are treatment
> providers who have no money to do what he does , who spend years
> to get the knowledge and reputation , but who cares if its done for
nothing
> it must be good ,
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
> To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
>
>
> > Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
> > drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
> > out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
> > but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
> > with anyone else.
> >
> > That’s very righteous of you.
> >
> > .:vector:.
> >
> > — MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > > The entheogarden extract is made up like this:
> > >
> > > One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
> > > remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
> > > plant
> > > extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
> > > told by J.
> > > Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
> > > though I
> > > used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..
> > >
> > > It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
> > > visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
> > > have a
> > > variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
> > > has
> > > two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
> > > mg
> > > respectively. ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)
> > >
> > > The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
> > > was
> > > detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
> > > low dose,
> > > 7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
> > > him 4,800
> > > grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
> > > said,
> > > without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
> > > continue
> > > for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
> > > 8- 10
> > > hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
> > > begins
> > > at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
> > > 4.30
> > > a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
> > > intial
> > > dose. THen up and active.
> > >
> > > Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
> > > course) by
> > > the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
> > > He will
> > > be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
> > > tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
> > > iboga
> > > therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
> > > the
> > > experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.
> > >
> > > The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
> > > entheogarden
> > > extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
> > > without
> > > withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
> > > his
> > > system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
> > > not need
> > > to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
> > > went
> > > straight to his psyche.
> > >
> > > Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
> > > ‘smell it’
> > > or ‘feel it’ days later.
> > >
> > > Marc Emery
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
> > > > you from all of us! 🙂
> > > >
> > > > Since you are now using both indra and the new
> > > > extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
> > > > between the two? From giving it to people, do they
> > > > respond to it in different ways and does someone
> > > > prefer one over the other?
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > >
> > > > Carla B
> > > >
> > > > — MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > > > > Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
> > > > > after ingestion of 4,800
> > > > > mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
> > > > > experiencing an epiphany or so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marc Emery
> > > > > —– Original Message —–
> > > > > From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
> > > > > To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > 24 hours earlier he had fixed with
> > > > > > > meth-amphetamine and
> > > > > > > heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > realized.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
> > > > > course
> > > > > > CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
> > > > > Eg, if
> > > > > > the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
> > > > > before
> > > > > > tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
> > > > > and
> > > > > > of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
> > > > > the
> > > > > > “fault” of the iboga, eh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
> > > > > fixed.
> > > > > > > In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
> > > > > fixing
> > > > > > > only that once.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
> > > > > > other treatments almost always, once they start
> > > > > using,
> > > > > > they are back in the saddle/off to the races
> > > > > > (whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
> > > > > does
> > > > > > not mean failure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > later. He says it is totally different from two
> > > > > > > weeks ago, when he said that
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pretty typical IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > everything was normal throughout the experience.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
> > > > > lack of
> > > > > > visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I left him (40 minutes
> > > > > > > ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > experiencing plenty. My
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
> > > > > > orally it would prove difficult to get more down
> > > > > them
> > > > > > (and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
> > > > > > Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > coworkers will be with him at all times but we
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > clearly impressed Sheldon
> > > > > > > is having quite a self-actualization.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
> > > > > after
> > > > > > being made. I hear people put it down for that
> > > > > reason
> > > > > > (it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
> > > > > they
> > > > > > are talking about. It does however seem more
> > > > > > unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
> > > > > > unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
> > > > > > Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
> > > > > to
> > > > > > me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
> > > > > > Ethnogardens extract.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think it helps that he is not being physically
> > > > > > > detoxed like last time, but
> > > > > > > psychologically detoxed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For sure, IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sheldon used to think
> > > > > > > counselling/analysis was a
> > > > > > > game, he liked to predict their next question,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > this self examination
> > > > > > > through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
> > > > > and so
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
> > > > > it
> > > > > > ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it,
> > > > > which
> > > > > > seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
> > > > > or
> > > > > > somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > He told us he’s very
> > > > > > > happy, ‘though I can
> > > > > > > still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
> > > > > course
> > > > > > on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
> > > > > little
> > > > > > higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
> > > > > > “feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
> > > > > initial
> > > > > > shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
> > > > > now
> > > > > > > getting inquiries from
> > > > > > > all over for treatment. We are looking at a
> > > > > rural
> > > > > > > property on Friday to
> > > > > > > develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brett
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
> > > > http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
> > http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:57:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
By not charging people, I am also not breaking any laws, since ibogaine is
unscheduled and by not charging money I am not practicing medicine without a
licence. When there is no charge I am merely assisting a self-administering
friend, entirely legal. Also, since I am an apprentice iboga practitioner, I
consider this my education period. Education costs. So my payment is a few
years of free service to the cause of assisting drug addicts to go clean,
and I learn plenty in the meantime. I see such impressive results already, I
am not discouraged and I am happy to learn this way. My helpers are great,
and we are already looking at working a property as our therapy centre. If
wealthy people or others want to donate so we can enlarge the outreach,
that will be great. And that will happen, but later as I refine our practice
and our objectives.
None of these addicts have any money anyway, and their families offer to pay
(we accept their meals and accommodation when its not in our facility), but
I decline the money. I feel much better right now having no monetary
interests, besides, its good karma to know the cannabis community is
ultimately paying to treat hard core drug addicts, another blessing on my
people for their good sense in sending me alot of money.
Sara, I hope you weren’t upset I am doing it for free. And you know I have
been there to help you when no one else could, that money I advanced your
way earlier this year (or was it even last year?) was from the cannabis
community through me, the same way I am treating addicts is the same way I
saved you from ?disaster?
I was hoping I could send Linette and Terry (my helpers) over to work with
you for a week or so as payback to me, so they could benefit by your
knowledge in exchange for the favour I extended to you.
I understand the idea of people appreciating what they pay for. I like the
freedom in choosing whom to treat (we have many applicants) without the
question of money. I choose the candidates that I want/can/seem likliest to
help with based also on what we can learn from the experience, so its an
education for everyone involved.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
I want to thank Howard for sharing his knowledge , on web you can find all
you like to know about Ibogaine and Iboga ,
treating people for no charge at all have less chance for success ,
Marc is a rich man who can do it all for nothing , but there are treatment
providers who have no money to do what he does , who spend years
to get the knowledge and reputation , but who cares if its done for
nothing
it must be good ,
—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.
That’s very righteous of you.
.:vector:.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:
One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..
It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively. ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)
The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.
Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.
The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
went
straight to his psyche.
Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.
Marc Emery
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂
Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?
Thank you,
Carla B
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:36:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I want to thank Howard for sharing his knowledge , on web you can find all
you like to know about Ibogaine and Iboga ,
treating people for no charge at all have less chance for success ,
Marc is a rich man who can do it all for nothing , but there are treatment
providers who have no money to do what he does , who spend years
to get the knowledge and reputation , but who cares if its done for nothing
it must be good ,
—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.
That’s very righteous of you.
.:vector:.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:
One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..
It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively. ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)
The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.
Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.
The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
went
straight to his psyche.
Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.
Marc Emery
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂
Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?
Thank you,
Carla B
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:18:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I plan to post all my different experiences treating people. I have
benefitted greatly from contributions on this listserve and have learned
plenty from practioners and addicts (in recovery or otherwise) who post
here.
A very interesting one hour show is at POT-TV.net (Prince of Pot with
Sascha) with my first person I sent for Ibogaine therapy 30 months ago and
her history with addiction. It taught me plenty just doing that show with
her.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Vector Vector” <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.
That’s very righteous of you.
.:vector:.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:
One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..
It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively. ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)
The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.
Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.
The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
went
straight to his psyche.
Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.
Marc Emery
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂
Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?
Thank you,
Carla B
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 3:11:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That’s because Patrick is crazy and ate sheets instead of squares. Patrick’s wisdom from Cult of the Dead Cow
http://cultdeadcow.blogspot.com/2002_08_18_cultdeadcow_archive.html
Today’s Quote from Lord Digital
“Now obviously, if we study the works of Kid Rock, Ph.D., it becomes clear that, “I’m dead as shit, but I ain’t been kilt see,” points out the innate and inherent truth of Dzogchen’s spin control re-wroted into Englishing, to wit, “To transcend the self is to be enlightened by all things.” By which he means to say, “shut up bitch, dose with 10mgs, face yourself, then get back to me. If you want to exit the cycle in this incarnation, you must keep destroying yourself in order to nonexist and re-exist, and move beyond the illusions of duality.” ”
-LD, from the Mindvox list.
All BS aside. What is that like? 4 hits and it scares the crap out of me. Are you still there at 100? I mean do you know that you still exist or are you dead or past dead. I understand that is what you were trying to do, you did it. But what is it like? I don’t think I ever want to conduct that experiment in my life.
To repeat it I did say I was sorry for calling you a sociopath. And I didn’t mean to rag on you Curtis. Hippies have the right to live too. Even if you eat granola and wear sandals.
Marc what you’re doing is right on bro. I had to put that in Curtis.
Really, some of us act like assholes some of the time. But this is one of the two best lists I have ever read. It’s not as good as fd because it contains no information about how to root servers, but it’s nearly as good.
On Wed, 06 Nov 2002 23:44:55 -0800 Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com> wrote:
LOL 🙂
There are a lot of very mentally ill people on this list.
None of you seem to care.
It must be very liberating. I hope to be like some of you when I
get
old like all of you over 30 people are 🙂
Patrick I hate you by the way, he’s right. Tripping on demand is
not
fair. I see tracers, visions, come back down. How come you get to
stay
there. And dogg how the %&*@# do you write like that? I can’t even
think when I’m there.
.:vector:.
— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:
— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Call it postibogaine maybe?
ibeganagain?
Eric would love it!
Ibelongagain, eh.
ibonaughts – ???
ibo-nuts, ya think?
eniagobi, to hard to say
Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.
inward bound, hummm
ibogaine support group, too traditional
anti-AA, that is another group.
iboga bombers, kind of has a ring to it but sounds
like
foot ball on ibogaine – gee, that would be fun.
The Way Out – or was that in.
The great escape, true
Escape into reality, or was it
I Be Over Great Addiction, it is getting late
Ended-abuse, sounds kind of familiar <g>
iboga-way, a street in Gabon or a new candy-bar
(yuck!)
ibo-who, ibo-us, there are folks I would like to
ibo-them.
Ibo-here, no, over there. It is getting late, humm, I
taped Star Trek… there’s a thought.
Just when you need divine inspiration I am so tired I
wouldn’t recognize it if it hit me on the head…
localhost and register it as 127.0.0.1, that should
make for lots of hits. They might get upset…
ibo-got-me-here, well it did.
IBO, just plain I B O.
Patrick, you figure it out, you are good at this
stuff. I don’t feel like eating a couple sheets of
acid to figure it out the way you can (you keep your
acid stored in your body and release it on demand,
that is not fair!).
IBO-WEBO, strange but ibo-web might do.
I Be Of God Again – there is that religion thing
Oh, well, good night.
B-
Bill
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH – Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:48:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc I wanted to say thank you for what you’re doing. I don’t do any
drugs that I want to stop, I like pot and see no reason to cut that one
out and entheogens are awesome. I don’t know very much about addiction
but I’ve never seen anybody who treats people share their knowledge
with anyone else.
That’s very righteous of you.
.:vector:.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:
One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total
plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am
told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range,
though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..
It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I
have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he
has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000
mg
respectively. ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)
The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who
was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a
low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave
him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he
said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which
continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the
8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting
begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. ,
4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after
intial
dose. THen up and active.
Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of
course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around.
He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our
iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through
the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.
The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the
entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing
without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in
his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did
not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It
went
straight to his psyche.
Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’,
‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.
Marc Emery
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂
Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?
Thank you,
Carla B
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:44:55 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
LOL 🙂
There are a lot of very mentally ill people on this list.
None of you seem to care.
It must be very liberating. I hope to be like some of you when I get
old like all of you over 30 people are 🙂
Patrick I hate you by the way, he’s right. Tripping on demand is not
fair. I see tracers, visions, come back down. How come you get to stay
there. And dogg how the %&*@# do you write like that? I can’t even
think when I’m there.
.:vector:.
— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:
— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Call it postibogaine maybe?
ibeganagain?
Eric would love it!
Ibelongagain, eh.
ibonaughts – ???
ibo-nuts, ya think?
eniagobi, to hard to say
Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.
inward bound, hummm
ibogaine support group, too traditional
anti-AA, that is another group.
iboga bombers, kind of has a ring to it but sounds
like
foot ball on ibogaine – gee, that would be fun.
The Way Out – or was that in.
The great escape, true
Escape into reality, or was it
I Be Over Great Addiction, it is getting late
Ended-abuse, sounds kind of familiar <g>
iboga-way, a street in Gabon or a new candy-bar
(yuck!)
ibo-who, ibo-us, there are folks I would like to
ibo-them.
Ibo-here, no, over there. It is getting late, humm, I
taped Star Trek… there’s a thought.
Just when you need divine inspiration I am so tired I
wouldn’t recognize it if it hit me on the head…
localhost and register it as 127.0.0.1, that should
make for lots of hits. They might get upset…
ibo-got-me-here, well it did.
IBO, just plain I B O.
Patrick, you figure it out, you are good at this
stuff. I don’t feel like eating a couple sheets of
acid to figure it out the way you can (you keep your
acid stored in your body and release it on demand,
that is not fair!).
IBO-WEBO, strange but ibo-web might do.
I Be Of God Again – there is that religion thing
Oh, well, good night.
B-
Bill
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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] What WE’ve Done
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:31:05 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
No one is permitted food for 12 hours previous to administration of iboga.
The brownies were given 15 hours before his test dose( to make him sleep 11
hours, which he did), 17 hours before the full dose, but they synergized
even at that late time.
Now we give Gravol suppository or gravol liquid 30 minutes before gel capped
iboga extract, prevents nausea in first 4 hours, after that, vomit away, I
say. People urinate alot on iboga, and generally the water comes up in the
later vomitting, but by hour 12 they are drinking fluids normally.
Our aftercare lectures include recommendations of banning TV, video games,
junk food, sugars, crap food, and we emphasize exercise, book reading,
activity, interaction with non-drug users only, avoidance of neighbourhoods
where drugs can be found readily and a whole pile more. We are hoping at the
Therapy House we can give them work (chopping wood, exercise programs,
building, gardening) and mind testing recreation (chess, pinnocle, etc.)
for 2 – 5 days to reinvent themselves, at least a little.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Marc
Comments
I don’t know if you used brownies but did want to
mention that any food in the stomach will have a big
effect on the iboga (negative). It slows absorption,
sort of lowers how high one would get, takes longer to
hit and spreads it out (to paint a picture). If it
were me, I wouldn’t have anything in my stomach or
anyones that just happened to do ibogaine in front of
me except an anti-emetic, maybe smoke something if
needed/wanted. I am also a little cautious/nervous
about having food in someones stomach who is wacked
out and highly prone vomiting… not a good recipe for
safty IMO. Funny, I use to do that all the time while
driving with no problems, must be getting old and lost
my sense of adventure.
Antiemetics will wear off long before the iboga does.
Once they get sick it is hard to get/keep anything
down them so you may wish to re-medicate them – eg if
they have notoriously weak tummies or find something
rectal/injection you can use if vomiting gets out of
hand – NOT COMPAZINE…
Yes, as Howard said keem em hydrated. Certainly
nothing for several hours after taking the iboga (till
the iboga is “down”). A little water, apple juice
(dilute – iboga does drop blood sugar a tad), ginger
tea… is fine after that.
I forgot who made the comment about urination. Yes,
fluids seem to flow even withoug drinking people can
vomit, increased voiding, phlegm (I had that the first
2 times for months, no longer – and that is before I
quit smoking so it wasn’t that). Ibo is a “detox” in a
very broad sense, cleans the entire body so it seems,
all that poison gotta go somewhere. I did use herbal
detox’s after my first couple treatments, they seemed
to help clean me up/out faster.
Easy with the food, slow at first, stuff like fruit,
REAL fruit juice, oatmeal, apple sauce, chicken soup
is great, anything clean/natural and easy to digest,
no junk (soda, coffee, candy…), nothing heavy/fast
food/greasy/red meat, no, not the KrispyKreem/Dunkin
Donuts either (addicts seem to think these are
health-foods)… But get em eating especially if they
don’t want to get out of bed, they will start to feel
better/recover faster after getting food in them.
Start with a T-spoon if needed, wait, do another…
Don’t take no for an answer.
“My supervisors say he is experiencing an epiphany or
so.”
Yeah, well I have seen lots of em, had a few myself…
Yes they are great stuff, at “the time” it is like
the whole world and life fell into place, everything
is understood, accepted, forgiven, loved, the path is
clear, lifes problems are all gone, addiction, what
addiction… Take advantage of it while he has it in
his grasp, much of it often passes in time (is
forgotten), some of it never will be forgotten –
depends, some people forget in a couple days… (where
did IT go?), ya never know. ALSO, I have had and known
people to have iboga experiences that they came out,
like “so what”, didn’t happen this time – and OH, were
they/we so very wrong. You cannot judge the results of
the iboga experience by how it seems to go, not
completely. AND, of course, they are all different –
just to make it fun. That said having an epiphany is
not a bad sign <g>.
OT, just went to my traditional AA meeting, gotta see
what I am missin, 2-3 times a year at least! Sorry,
these folks sound like they are holding on for dear
life (lots of fear) and that just ain’t me, I got a
life. Oh well, they were there when I needed them –
that is the good part, they are pretty much always
there no matter where you go. One poor guy with 23
days clean (doin the right stuff) had this hard ass
grab him after the meeting and chastize him for going
to a new-age style/fear-free Christian service on
Sundays composed mainly of people in recovery – “YOU
NEED AA and NOTHING ELSE”. Like the 2 AA meetings he
is going to every day isn’t good enough, he might be
contaminated… 2 minutes later he is telling the
“newcomer” drinking/drugging war stories – 11 years
sober and just as mean as the day he stopped drinking
and still not knowing it.
It is not AA/12 steps that bother me so much as the
interpretation/people that I have a problem with in
the “rooms”, with their boogy-man disease is going to
get you if you don’t do these things or do those
things. Yeah, yeah, take what you need… right, it
is just so depressing for me – BUT finally I can go to
meetings and not want to use when I come out. That is
NOT a joke and NOT funny and is the reason I stopped
going.
Brett
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon was throwing up hourly ( at about 9 hours
after iboga ingested) for
a while and any water he took in was coming up, but
he began to rest and
think about the experience about 5 hours ago, with
visualization
diminishing, and the nausea stopped after we gave
him gravol at 6.00 a.m.
this morning. He is up now walking and is going
outside to pet the horses.
Feels tired but good.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still
tripping
In a message dated 11/6/02 3:18:58 PM,
marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21
hours after ingestion of
4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or
so.
Make sure you get him to drink water. You don’t
want him getting
dehydrated.
It may be something he doesn’t want to do (drink
water that is) but, it
could be important. I am sure you will receive
comments from various
providers on this matter.
Howard
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From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] An Update
Date: November 7, 2002 at 2:16:53 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The entheogarden extract is made up like this:
One gram extract is about 600 mg. ibogaine, the other 400 mg. are the
remaining eleven alkaloids (iboline, ribogaine, etc.). It is a total plant
extract. A full analysis will be available in about 30 days. I am told by J.
Callon of Entheogarden that 35 mg/kg to 45mg/kg is the dose range, though I
used somewhat less at the urging of some here in the group..
It certainly stops physical withdrawl and detoxes remarkably. No
visualizations occurred in the two cases of the recent days, but I have a
variety of explanations for that. Also, J. Callon informed me that he has
two first hand reports of extreme visualization at 3,500 mg & 4,000 mg
respectively. ( FYI, 4,000 mg = $400 US cost)
The Indra Extract I used yesterday for the first time on Sheldon, who was
detoxed via Entheogarden Extract 14 days ago. He fixed again, at a low dose,
7 days later, then remained clean for 6 days when I yesterday gave him 4,800
grams of indra’s extract. He was very ‘high’, like a heroin high he said,
without the dizziness. Within 2.5 hours he was visualizing, which continue
for about 10 hours, growing in intensity and speed and peaking at the 8- 10
hour after dose, which was done all at once (by gel caps). Vomitting begins
at 8.00 p.m., repeated at midnight, 1.00 a.m., 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. , 4.30
a.m. Administer Gravol. End vomitting. Rest from Hour 14 to 18 after intial
dose. THen up and active.
Sheldon was somewhat disturbed (in my opinion, in a good way, of course) by
the experience, and was quiet much of the time after walking around. He will
be sorting out the many images and sounds and hallucinations he saw,
tonight. We are going out tomorrow to look at a property for our iboga
therapy house. We all educated ourselves watching Sheldon go through the
experience with full-on visuals/audibles/hallucinations.
The 4,800 indra extract is actually a lower dose than the entheogarden
extract, but I feel the entheogarden did a great job of detoxing without
withdrawl a user who put $200 worth of heroin/mth/crack cocaine in his
system only 24 hours before we iboga’d him! The indra’s extract did not need
to detox him physically as he was 6 days from the earlier $40 fix. It went
straight to his psyche.
Both extracts have elicited comments of ‘I can still taste it’, ‘smell it’
or ‘feel it’ days later.
Marc Emery
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂
Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?
Thank you,
Carla B
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
__________________________________________________
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From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 1:34:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Another name: iet
(short for “I have eaten”)
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 1:31:37 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU> wrote:
Call it postibogaine maybe?
ibeganagain?
Eric would love it!
Ibelongagain, eh.
ibonaughts – ???
ibo-nuts, ya think?
eniagobi, to hard to say
Hey, it late and I can’t sleep – a post quitting
smoking (and quitting smoking) artifact, it will pass.
inward bound, hummm
ibogaine support group, too traditional
anti-AA, that is another group.
iboga bombers, kind of has a ring to it but sounds
like
foot ball on ibogaine – gee, that would be fun.
The Way Out – or was that in.
The great escape, true
Escape into reality, or was it
I Be Over Great Addiction, it is getting late
Ended-abuse, sounds kind of familiar <g>
iboga-way, a street in Gabon or a new candy-bar
(yuck!)
ibo-who, ibo-us, there are folks I would like to
ibo-them.
Ibo-here, no, over there. It is getting late, humm, I
taped Star Trek… there’s a thought.
Just when you need divine inspiration I am so tired I
wouldn’t recognize it if it hit me on the head…
localhost and register it as 127.0.0.1, that should
make for lots of hits. They might get upset…
ibo-got-me-here, well it did.
IBO, just plain I B O.
Patrick, you figure it out, you are good at this
stuff. I don’t feel like eating a couple sheets of
acid to figure it out the way you can (you keep your
acid stored in your body and release it on demand,
that is not fair!).
IBO-WEBO, strange but ibo-web might do.
I Be Of God Again – there is that religion thing
Oh, well, good night.
B-
Bill
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 12:32:08 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :
Patrick, for someone so creative you are having a off night or tired.
postibogaine sucks. afteribogaine sucks.
I liked ibeganagain. I like that one a lot. initiated is good. theinitiated, something cool. post or after anything is boring.
ibeganagain is the best one suggested so far 🙂
What I’m going to do now is click tag lines on Mindvox and give my analysis of each one.
I got
“The Art of Self Destruction”
Hmm…
My two great observations are that first there is something really wrong with your mind. That’s not a problem, you’re sick and beautiful. The other observation I have is that you look to have that fusion of art and technology there, what’s it called, oh right, Mindvox going. I’ve been clicking it for nearly a hour and no Solaris Injection errors, no Oracle or Nextstep explosions. It’s all there.
You should open it.
You should! 🙂
Nothing to do with ibogaine but have you ever wondered why OS/X is still displaying NextStep error messages? Every app does that. It’s a little weird to crash photoshop 7 under Aqua and have it fill the screen with NS error messages. It makes me feel like it’s 1992 again.
Steve has a weird sense of humor.
Peace out,
Curtis
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 7, 2002 at 12:28:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc
Comments
I don’t know if you used brownies but did want to
mention that any food in the stomach will have a big
effect on the iboga (negative). It slows absorption,
sort of lowers how high one would get, takes longer to
hit and spreads it out (to paint a picture). If it
were me, I wouldn’t have anything in my stomach or
anyones that just happened to do ibogaine in front of
me except an anti-emetic, maybe smoke something if
needed/wanted. I am also a little cautious/nervous
about having food in someones stomach who is wacked
out and highly prone vomiting… not a good recipe for
safty IMO. Funny, I use to do that all the time while
driving with no problems, must be getting old and lost
my sense of adventure.
Antiemetics will wear off long before the iboga does.
Once they get sick it is hard to get/keep anything
down them so you may wish to re-medicate them – eg if
they have notoriously weak tummies or find something
rectal/injection you can use if vomiting gets out of
hand – NOT COMPAZINE…
Yes, as Howard said keem em hydrated. Certainly
nothing for several hours after taking the iboga (till
the iboga is “down”). A little water, apple juice
(dilute – iboga does drop blood sugar a tad), ginger
tea… is fine after that.
I forgot who made the comment about urination. Yes,
fluids seem to flow even withoug drinking people can
vomit, increased voiding, phlegm (I had that the first
2 times for months, no longer – and that is before I
quit smoking so it wasn’t that). Ibo is a “detox” in a
very broad sense, cleans the entire body so it seems,
all that poison gotta go somewhere. I did use herbal
detox’s after my first couple treatments, they seemed
to help clean me up/out faster.
Easy with the food, slow at first, stuff like fruit,
REAL fruit juice, oatmeal, apple sauce, chicken soup
is great, anything clean/natural and easy to digest,
no junk (soda, coffee, candy…), nothing heavy/fast
food/greasy/red meat, no, not the KrispyKreem/Dunkin
Donuts either (addicts seem to think these are
health-foods)… But get em eating especially if they
don’t want to get out of bed, they will start to feel
better/recover faster after getting food in them.
Start with a T-spoon if needed, wait, do another…
Don’t take no for an answer.
“My supervisors say he is experiencing an epiphany or
so.”
Yeah, well I have seen lots of em, had a few myself…
Yes they are great stuff, at “the time” it is like
the whole world and life fell into place, everything
is understood, accepted, forgiven, loved, the path is
clear, lifes problems are all gone, addiction, what
addiction… Take advantage of it while he has it in
his grasp, much of it often passes in time (is
forgotten), some of it never will be forgotten –
depends, some people forget in a couple days… (where
did IT go?), ya never know. ALSO, I have had and known
people to have iboga experiences that they came out,
like “so what”, didn’t happen this time – and OH, were
they/we so very wrong. You cannot judge the results of
the iboga experience by how it seems to go, not
completely. AND, of course, they are all different –
just to make it fun. That said having an epiphany is
not a bad sign <g>.
OT, just went to my traditional AA meeting, gotta see
what I am missin, 2-3 times a year at least! Sorry,
these folks sound like they are holding on for dear
life (lots of fear) and that just ain’t me, I got a
life. Oh well, they were there when I needed them –
that is the good part, they are pretty much always
there no matter where you go. One poor guy with 23
days clean (doin the right stuff) had this hard ass
grab him after the meeting and chastize him for going
to a new-age style/fear-free Christian service on
Sundays composed mainly of people in recovery – “YOU
NEED AA and NOTHING ELSE”. Like the 2 AA meetings he
is going to every day isn’t good enough, he might be
contaminated… 2 minutes later he is telling the
“newcomer” drinking/drugging war stories – 11 years
sober and just as mean as the day he stopped drinking
and still not knowing it.
It is not AA/12 steps that bother me so much as the
interpretation/people that I have a problem with in
the “rooms”, with their boogy-man disease is going to
get you if you don’t do these things or do those
things. Yeah, yeah, take what you need… right, it
is just so depressing for me – BUT finally I can go to
meetings and not want to use when I come out. That is
NOT a joke and NOT funny and is the reason I stopped
going.
Brett
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon was throwing up hourly ( at about 9 hours
after iboga ingested) for
a while and any water he took in was coming up, but
he began to rest and
think about the experience about 5 hours ago, with
visualization
diminishing, and the nausea stopped after we gave
him gravol at 6.00 a.m.
this morning. He is up now walking and is going
outside to pet the horses.
Feels tired but good.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still
tripping
In a message dated 11/6/02 3:18:58 PM,
marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21
hours after ingestion of
4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or
so.
Make sure you get him to drink water. You don’t
want him getting
dehydrated.
It may be something he doesn’t want to do (drink
water that is) but, it
could be important. I am sure you will receive
comments from various
providers on this matter.
Howard
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From: ascending@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 7, 2002 at 12:16:13 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Patrick, for someone so creative you are having a off night or tired.
postibogaine sucks. afteribogaine sucks.
I liked ibeganagain. I like that one a lot. initiated is good. theinitiated, something cool. post or after anything is boring.
What I’m going to do now is click tag lines on Mindvox and give my analysis of each one.
“MindVox Theatre of the Absurd . Showtimes: Perpetual”
Yes it is and yes they are. But you should open it.
“MindVox Theatre of Cruelty . Showtimes: All Eternity”
Another theatre one. I hate intellectuals. But you should open it.
“The Last Gathering of The Usual Suspects”
I see that. You are right. But you should open it.
“46 55 43 4B 20 59 4F 55”
Ohhh. FUCK YOU written in hexadecimel. But you should open it.
“Now Includes: Flying UFO Stealth Blimps”
That’s great. But you should open it.
“Please Xerox this Screen & Send It to 10,000 People or God will Kill You. Thank You”
I will. But you should open it.
“…Success is my only Motherfucking Option … Failure, Not…”
You are so right. But you should open it.
My two great observations are that first there is something really wrong with your mind. That’s not a problem, you’re sick and beautiful. The other observation I have is that you look to have that fusion of art and technology there, what’s it called, oh right, Mindvox going. I’ve been clicking it for nearly a hour and no Solaris Injection errors, no Oracle or Nextstep explosions. It’s all there.
You should open it.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: Bill Ross <ross@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 6, 2002 at 11:22:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Call it postibogaine maybe?
ibeganagain?
Bill
From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 6, 2002 at 10:49:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc, I think what you’re doing is really great. Thank
you from all of us! 🙂
Since you are now using both indra and the new
extract. Could you tell me what the difference is
between the two? From giving it to people, do they
respond to it in different ways and does someone
prefer one over the other?
Thank you,
Carla B
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours
after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is
experiencing an epiphany or so.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than
I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of
course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment.
Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just
before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment –
and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not
the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he
fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free,
fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start
using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it
is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using
does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about
lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing
and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down
them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we
are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years
after
being made. I hear people put it down for that
reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what
they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same
to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question,
but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously,
and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and
it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it,
which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement)
or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of
course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a
little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the
initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am
now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a
rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 6, 2002 at 10:47:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes, please open postibogaine! 🙂 It would be great
to have a place where people who have done it can talk
about what they’re doing after. It’s more personal and
it would be nice to get to know people and how they
deal. This group was more like that in the beginning
but it’s gotten very huge and now I don’t know most of
the people on it anymore.
I don’t think it should matter if someone used
ibogaine to get off drugs or used it later, never had
a drug problem. As long as they’ve done ibogaine and
want to talk about it.
Thank you
Patrick, please answer your mail once a month? 😉
Carla B
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Otay, name it. postibogaine, afteribogaine,
ibogaine2thesequel. Whatcha
wannit called, I’ll make it tomorrow. I seem to
have roughly 20 letters
to that effect. Sorta. They’re more like, “you
need to DELETE asshole
#1, #15, and #27, I hate them and they suck. Why do
they post to the
list??!?!?”
Basically, this is how DrugWar started in the first
place. Which is to
say this list getting overloaded, overlapped, and
filled up with too much
material.
And… Thusly, so, like… The criteria for entry
is what…? Having
done ibogaine? Having done ibogaine to get
unsprung? Show me your
tracks or I won’t sell to you. Give me Complete
Documented Proof and a
blood sample. Or just like, take a lot of effort
and lie in a convincing
manner…
Whatever. I’ll set it up tomorrow…
__________________________________________________
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Brief Announcement Regarding Lists
Date: November 6, 2002 at 10:25:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And open these already. From the Vox list.
.:vector:.
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
A high brief announcement, ‘cuz I’m outta here for the evening.
Due to the high volume of people landing here and crosstalk starting
on
the other lists — which have an actual purpose, unlike the Vox list
—
we’re gonna open a few more lists in the next coupla days. Since
these are
all compliant with the same RFC as OldVox, it doesn’t matter, and
everything will be Sucked Into the New Interface, one of these
decades.
The lists that will open are:
entheogens: probably some sort of forum about entheogens or
something.
wasted: the exact opposite of entheogens, “Look, I LIKE smoking
crack,
drinking beer and fucking totally skanky ho’s. Do you have some kind
of
problem with that?”
and godhead.
Godhead is a support group for people with a messiah complex.
Psychotics,
those who suffer from HPPD, and charismatic cult leaders, are all
welcome.
No normal people allowed. No preaching; I do not care what is writ
in the
Holy Book of the Arboreal Tree Sloth, on the Sacred Tablets which
were
created in 1200 BC and recently discovered in the remains of a
crashed
flying saucer. I don’t care what you think Saint Eugene would have
to say
about the topic; I do not care if you are one of the 12 chosen in the
Cult
of Ted. Go worship Ted, and tell Ted to show up.
Serial Killers who are in the Process of Becoming are probably okay.
Just
don’t share way too much information that nobody really needs to be
liable
for. 3l33t h4x0r do0dz with severe personality disorders, are also
accepted.
If *YOU* want some other list to exist. This is a great time to ask.
Mucho gracias,
Patrick
Here, have a pretty pikshoor:
http://www.mkgallery.com/limited_editions/TSchorr/image1.html
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From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 6, 2002 at 10:22:32 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
If it’s any consolation I’m sure there is a support group for people
who have attempted to treat you for anything Patrick 🙂
You should make the after ibogaine list. Call it postibogaine maybe?
The criteria for entry should be posting a lot of happy messages,
followed by not so happy messages, followed by complete silence.
Much more important where do I download this? 🙂
MindVox – Addiction (Remixed) [Version: LSD/Ibogaine/Heroin/Crack DJ
Flatline].mp3
And, is Mindvox open or not? The mirage became solid 2 days ago. It’s
still there, but no post to crashtestdummies. I’m looking at at least
500 forums right now. So can I sign in or what?
You also need to read your mail at least twice a year. 🙂
.:vector:.
— “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
On [Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 08:03:33PM -0500], [AndriaE@aol.com] wrote:
| U R not a leper! Several people on this list have used 12-steps to
help
| through the roughest times, including myself.
They work out for sum people. You’re not a leper. If you are, I’m
sure
they have a support group for that by now too. <group hug> <serenity
prayer>
| As for a list: mmh, last night I almost completely unsubscribed to
this one
| due to lack of sleep.. Why don’t U ask around and on this list
again, and see
| if people think there is a need for such a thing
Otay, name it. postibogaine, afteribogaine, ibogaine2thesequel.
Whatcha
wannit called, I’ll make it tomorrow. I seem to have roughly 20
letters
to that effect. Sorta. They’re more like, “you need to DELETE
asshole
#1, #15, and #27, I hate them and they suck. Why do they post to the
list??!?!?”
Basically, this is how DrugWar started in the first place. Which is
to
say this list getting overloaded, overlapped, and filled up with too
much
material.
And… Thusly, so, like… The criteria for entry is what…?
Having
done ibogaine? Having done ibogaine to get unsprung? Show me your
tracks or I won’t sell to you. Give me Complete Documented Proof and
a
blood sample. Or just like, take a lot of effort and lie in a
convincing
manner…
Whatever. I’ll set it up tomorrow…
Patrick
p.s., I am reading my mail spool, I promise, for real, right now,
even as
I write this I’m already starting.
__________________________________________________
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Da Ibogaine List Part ][
Date: November 6, 2002 at 9:33:19 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 08:03:33PM -0500], [AndriaE@aol.com] wrote:
| U R not a leper! Several people on this list have used 12-steps to help
| through the roughest times, including myself.
They work out for sum people. You’re not a leper. If you are, I’m sure
they have a support group for that by now too. <group hug> <serenity
prayer>
| As for a list: mmh, last night I almost completely unsubscribed to this one
| due to lack of sleep.. Why don’t U ask around and on this list again, and see
| if people think there is a need for such a thing
Otay, name it. postibogaine, afteribogaine, ibogaine2thesequel. Whatcha
wannit called, I’ll make it tomorrow. I seem to have roughly 20 letters
to that effect. Sorta. They’re more like, “you need to DELETE asshole
#1, #15, and #27, I hate them and they suck. Why do they post to the
list??!?!?”
Basically, this is how DrugWar started in the first place. Which is to
say this list getting overloaded, overlapped, and filled up with too much
material.
And… Thusly, so, like… The criteria for entry is what…? Having
done ibogaine? Having done ibogaine to get unsprung? Show me your
tracks or I won’t sell to you. Give me Complete Documented Proof and a
blood sample. Or just like, take a lot of effort and lie in a convincing
manner…
Whatever. I’ll set it up tomorrow…
Patrick
p.s., I am reading my mail spool, I promise, for real, right now, even as
I write this I’m already starting.
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Fw: Enquiry to the Medicines Control Agency RE: Tabernathe iboga
Date: November 6, 2002 at 8:14:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick thanx for the info from MCA
What would be the story then IF someone was known to be administering it to others? Or is that not written about?
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] After-care for Ibogaine-detoxers.
Date: November 6, 2002 at 8:03:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Sandy
U R not a leper! Several people on this list have used 12-steps to help through the roughest times, including myself.
My suggestion was actually an idea for Ibogaine treatment providers to consider given that most folks seem to need a space inbetween the detox and ‘reintegration’ where they can hang with their peers in a safe boat and U’know spur each other on. Marc’s treatment centre in Vancouver, e.g. might consider it
As for a list: mmh, last night I almost completely unsubscribed to this one due to lack of sleep.. Why don’t U ask around and on this list again, and see if people think there is a need for such a thing
Thanx for replying to my e-mail, and keep on keeping on
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 6, 2002 at 6:57:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Your absolutely right, abuse has been around ever since rotten fruit started falling off of trees. Mundo. <
LOL, anyone ever see that film, (can’t remember the name) I guess it came out in the 80s, about the wild animals of the plains in Africa somewhere? The one that shows the monkeys, elephants and giraffes (among others) getting drunk off this particular tree’s fruit they specifically search out? It is a hilarious scene, and made me think even back then about the state of inebriation and how natural it is.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Your absolutely right, abuse has been around ever since rotten fruit started falling off of trees. Mundo.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”<
Are you sure about this? (well, I guess “relatively low” is probably correct, but what appears to have been some form of abuse was not unheard of)
Apparently, and though “abuse” might not be the correct term, “Arab, Greek and Roman physicians were familiar with the dangers of opium poisoning. Nicander of Colophon in the second century BC described the unconsciouness of someone who had drunk too deeply of opiate concoctions: ‘Their eyes do not open but are bond quite motionless by their eyelids. With the exhayustion an odorous sweat bathes all the body, turns cheeks pale, and causes the lips to swell: the bonbs of the jaw are relaxed, and through the throat the laboured breath passes faint and chill. And often either the livid nail or wrinkled nostril is a harbinger of death.'”
But then Marcus Arelius (AD 121-80), apparently used opium every day as ruler of Rome, (whose reign Edward Gibbon [in The History of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire- 1776] described as, “the period in the history of the world during which the condition of the human race was most happy) taken with honey, adjusting his doses to compensate for the times he needed to execute his imperial duties. “This is not the uncontrolled conduct of someone whose drug use has escalated into addiction requiring increased doses,” writes Richard Davenport-Hines in his book “In Pursuit of Oblivion- a Global History of Narcotics.”
And Paracelsus, (Phillppus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombast vno Hohenheim) invented Laudanum sometime before 1540, since that’s the year he died, which was an abused opiate-based drug that was not smoked.
Gosh, wish I knew someone who grew legal opium or made legal laudanum sometimes.;-))
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Yes, I am including all plant teachers as treasures, including coca and opium, (both of which I have experience). Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”. Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>! ! prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
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From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 6, 2002 at 4:10:53 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Your absolutely right, abuse has been around ever since rotten fruit started falling off of trees. Mundo.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”<
Are you sure about this? (well, I guess “relatively low” is probably correct, but what appears to have been some form of abuse was not unheard of)
Apparently, and though “abuse” might not be the correct term, “Arab, Greek and Roman physicians were familiar with the dangers of opium poisoning. Nicander of Colophon in the second century BC described the unconsciouness of someone who had drunk too deeply of opiate concoctions: ‘Their eyes do not open but are bond quite motionless by their eyelids. With the exhayustion an odorous sweat bathes all the body, turns cheeks pale, and causes the lips to swell: the bonbs of the jaw are relaxed, and through the throat the laboured breath passes faint and chill. And often either the livid nail or wrinkled nostril is a harbinger of death.'”
But then Marcus Arelius (AD 121-80), apparently used opium every day as ruler of Rome, (whose reign Edward Gibbon [in The History of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire- 1776] described as, “the period in the history of the world during which the condition of the human race was most happy) taken with honey, adjusting his doses to compensate for the times he needed to execute his imperial duties. “This is not the uncontrolled conduct of someone whose drug use has escalated into addiction requiring increased doses,” writes Richard Davenport-Hines in his book “In Pursuit of Oblivion- a Global History of Narcotics.”
And Paracelsus, (Phillppus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombast vno Hohenheim) invented Laudanum sometime before 1540, since that’s the year he died, which was an abused opiate-based drug that was not smoked.
Gosh, wish I knew someone who grew legal opium or made legal laudanum sometimes.;-))
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Yes, I am including all plant teachers as treasures, including coca and opium, (both of which I have experience). Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”. Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>! prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
__________________________________________________________
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From: “booker w” <swbooker@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] After-care for Ibogaine-detoxers.
Date: November 6, 2002 at 4:04:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi. I think having a ex-user ibogaine support-type list would be a great idea. I am always very interested to hear how ibogaine seems to alter folks’ paths. I also think staying clean, for me, seems to still be a day-to-day struggle/issue and staying in touch with other folks who’re doing the same seems helpful to me. I do use AA and NA but chatting with folks specifically about ibogaine is very appealing. I feel like sort of a leper here because I do use the 12 steps and it is put down alot on this list, but I have no interest in selling it to anyone else – I also believe a person can get clean a million different ways, and none is foolproof, or anything can work. Anyway, I’d like very much to see the ibogaine ex-user list come into being. Just my two cents….
Best wishes to all, Sandy Watson
>From: AndriaE@aol.com
>Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Subject: [ibogaine] After-care for Ibogaine-detoxers.
>Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:57:21 EST
>
>Marc said:
>I think it helps that he is not being physically detoxed like last time, but
>psychologically detoxed. Sheldon used to think counselling/analysis was a
>game, he liked to predict their next question, but this self examination
>through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously, and so we look forward to his
>continued experience.
>
>Andria responds:
>
>Dear Marc,
>
>Hattie, who is on this list, came to me sometime ago, asking about
>counselling after-care for folks who had just detoxed.
>Like any other ex-user, self-help, and/or therapy of some kind does seem to
>be a good idea for most. This question led me to ask around the
>drugs-field/U.K., on who would be willing to take this on; my sense was that
>there would be a minority of psychologists/counsellors who could/would.
>
>Often, but not always, they were ex-users, whose minds were open enough to
>listen to the Iboga experience without judgement, and just get on with being
>a friend to folks, who needed to reconnect to HUMANS as opposed to drugs. I
>hope this doesn’t sound weird, but according to psychoanalysts, addicts are a
>kinda-pervert(!) – gee, i ain’t had enough insults – who tend to attach to
>substances, rather than people. Put simply, we get outta practise, and need
>to relearn human-connectedness.
>
>I wonder if setting up an post Iboga ex-user group, would be a good idea for
>some?
>
>In England, I’m increasingly meeting post-Ibogaine people, who ALSO use
>general drug-services to stay off h & c, which i suspect is a fairly healthy
>situation
>
>Warm regards
>
>andria
>Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
>Editor of the Users Voice
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
From: Randywalker57@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 6, 2002 at 3:56:44 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
<PRE>Howard makes a great point. I drank water because I felt that that was the
only way I was going to survive the ordeal! lol Seriously, I always have
plenty of water and Gatorade available. I also keep reminding them to drink.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I was urinating like I have never
urinated in my life! I wobbled for days. I took a hot bath with Epson salts
after 30 hrs. or so, and felt much better. My girlfriend is also a massage
therapist and administered therapeutic massage. Simple massage to the legs
and back can work wonders when coming out of the clouds! Randy
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 6, 2002 at 3:52:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sheldon was throwing up hourly ( at about 9 hours after iboga ingested) for
a while and any water he took in was coming up, but he began to rest and
think about the experience about 5 hours ago, with visualization
diminishing, and the nausea stopped after we gave him gravol at 6.00 a.m.
this morning. He is up now walking and is going outside to pet the horses.
Feels tired but good.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
In a message dated 11/6/02 3:18:58 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours after ingestion of
4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is experiencing an epiphany or
so.
Make sure you get him to drink water. You don’t want him getting
dehydrated.
It may be something he doesn’t want to do (drink water that is) but, it
could be important. I am sure you will receive comments from various
providers on this matter.
Howard
From: Randywalker57@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 6, 2002 at 3:46:57 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc,
I have been in Sheldon’s space boots! lol I tripped for 30 hrs. and
really didn’t come down for about 50. That was my first session. I used the
hcl. Because of the intensity and length of the first, I used Ambien and
Xanax the other two. Really, I think the benzo’s diminish the experience and
if are going to be used, should be used at the end of the experience. That is
just my personal opinion. I have been involved in 7 other sessions, none
lasted more that 30 hrs. total, with one lasting only 20 hrs. total. All were
fine afterwards. On another note, I have only seen one vomit, and that was
very light. We use the motion sickness meds. and are very strict about lying
very, very still. Again, this is with hcl. I have heard of more vomiting with
the Indra. Because of the other alkaloids? If someone has an answer, I am
all ears. I am curious about something, Marc. Why the hash brownies? It is
just my opinion, but those first 6-8 hrs. should be uninhibited, letting the
individual feel the full impact of the ibo. Just my opinion. Something I do,
I always reassure that iboga will always bring you back, maybe not as quick
as you’d like, but he will always bring you back. Regards, Randy
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 6, 2002 at 3:32:47 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/6/02 3:18:58 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is experiencing an epiphany or
so.
Make sure you get him to drink water. You don’t want him getting dehydrated.
It may be something he doesn’t want to do (drink water that is) but, it
could be important. I am sure you will receive comments from various
providers on this matter.
Howard
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] 21 hours later and still tripping
Date: November 6, 2002 at 3:17:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sheldon is still tripping and visualizing 21 hours after ingestion of 4,800
mg. Indra extract. My supervisors say he is experiencing an epiphany or so.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese” <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment. Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment – and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free, fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years after
being made. I hear people put it down for that reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question, but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously, and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it, which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement) or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] A Chapel is not a Hospice.
Date: November 6, 2002 at 1:49:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
At 9:19 PM -0800 11/5/02, MARC wrote:
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am now getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a rural property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
Hospice is a place you send people to die. The correct designation is
“Chapel”. That way we’re covered under international treaties
respecting rights to practice our religion, which requires us to
offer our sacrament to addicted people and liberate them from sin.
All churches claim that their sacrament liberates people from sin–
ours is just more effective than the wine and the wafer, as the Tree
of Life itself has potency far beyond the i.o.u.’s proffered by
conventional religions.
You’re running a Bwiti Chapel by the simple usage of Iboga in this
fashion. QED.
Dana Beal
North American Apostolic Delegate for the Sacrament of Transition, a
religious order legally recognized by the Interior Ministry of
Slovenia
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: Enquiry to the Medicines Control Agency RE: Tabernathe iboga
Date: November 6, 2002 at 8:47:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>, <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
For anyone not aware of ibogaine’s current legal status in the UK, I got
this back from a doctor at the Medicines Control Agency. Basically, the
review in which iboga and/or ibogaine may be restricted is not yet close to
completion, so its status remains unchanged for the time being. The
substance is recognised as psychoactive and regulated under the Medicines
Act, but it is not an offence to possess, as I understand the law. This
applies to UK only.
All the best
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: Daykin, Dr Alison To: <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 1:05 PM
Subject: Enquiry to the Medicines Control Agency RE: Tabernathe iboga
Dear Mr Sandberg
Thank you for you Email of 1 November asking whether the review of herbal
ingredients has now determined a new legal status for Tabernathe iboga.
The review of the herbs cited by the Medicines Control Agency is still in
progress and will take a considerable amount of time to complete. It is
likely that the review will be tiered, with herbs which may pose more
serious safety issues being reviewed in the first tier. Tabernathe Iboga is
likely to be included in the first tier but any part of the review is still
a long way off completion.
The outcome of the herbs being reviewed on safety grounds has not been
determined. If, on completion of the review, Ministers decide that a new
regulatory status for any of the herbs is in the interests of protecting
public help, a formal full public consultation will take place.
I hope this is helpful.
Alison Daykin
Senior Herbals Policy Manager
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Ethnoplanet
Date: November 6, 2002 at 8:50:16 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@lists.calyx.nl>, <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
re: Ethnoplanet’s iboga rootbark about which there have been a couple of
complaints recently – Claus at Ethnoplanet, based in Denmark, mailed me the
following:
Hi Nick,
We got the rootbark from a local contact in Coté de Ivory 13 months ago – it
was tested in Amsterdam afterwards. The quality was determained as medium. I
have no ide how old the rootbark is – I was told that it was harvested right
before shipment.
Please believe that we have no interest in cheating customers about quality
etc., but it is the first complains I have ever heard of.
Anyway the stock is almost out – so I will remove if from the saleslist and
have it tested again. Do you have any contacts to realiable sources – we
prefer to trade with locals.
Regards
Claus
From: AQUIS18@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
Date: November 6, 2002 at 11:56:51 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
NEED INFO . PLEASE CALL ME @ 305-992-7899. THANKS.
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] NYC iboga/ibogaine community forum Sat Nov 16
Date: November 6, 2002 at 11:32:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please forward this email announcement of the New York City, Saturday,
November 16, IBOGA & IBOGAINE FORUM to interested lists and individuals.
Thank you.
This forum brings together a unique combination of activists, traditional
healers, scientists and medical experts with experience in the use of iboga,
the plant used in African religion or ibogaine, its purified pharmaceutical
product in healing practices and in the treatment of addiction.
http://www.ibogaine.org/nycforum.html
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE* & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addiction
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP)———8:45
Elombe Brath (activist/ journalist/ PLC)————–9:05
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga)—————9:30
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher)——————10:00
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert)—————10:30
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit)—————11:10
Rommell Washington (social worker)—————–11:35
Gen Discussion——————————————12:00
Moderator Close——————————————1:30
$10 ADMISSION – ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
No one will be turned away.
DEMPSEY CENTER AUDITORIUM 127 W. 127th St.
Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
http://www.ibogaine.org/nycforum.html
From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] NYC iboga/ibogaine community forum Sat Nov 16
Date: November 6, 2002 at 11:25:32 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Please forward this email announcement of the New York City, Saturday,
November 16, IBOGA & IBOGAINE FORUM to interested lists and individuals. A
word version is attached. Thank you.
This forum brings together a unique combination of activists, traditional
healers, scientists and medical experts with experience in the use of iboga,
the plant used in African religion or ibogaine, its purified pharmaceutical
product in healing practices and in the treatment of addiction.
http://www.ibogaine.org/nycforum.html
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE* & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addiction
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP)———8:45
Elombe Brath (activist/ journalist/ PLC)————–9:05
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga)—————9:30
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher)——————10:00
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert)—————10:30
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit)—————11:10
Rommell Washington (social worker)—————–11:35
Gen Discussion——————————————12:00
Moderator Close——————————————1:30
$10 ADMISSION – ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
No one will be turned away.
DEMPSEY CENTER AUDITORIUM 127 W. 127th St.
Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
http://www.ibogaine.org/nycforum.html
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
Date: November 6, 2002 at 9:19:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
24 hours earlier he had fixed with
meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than I
realized.
It is the nature of the beast to lie. This of course
CAN have an effect on the outcome of treatment. Eg, if
the patient is not close to withdrawal (just before
tx) because they used more/closer to treatment – and
of course during/just before can be dangerous. Not the
“fault” of the iboga, eh?
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free, fixing
only that once.
That happens with iboga, it is pretty common. With
other treatments almost always, once they start using,
they are back in the saddle/off to the races
(whatever), this is the case with iboga – eg, it is
one time, a couple times, reduced usage… Using does
not mean failure.
later. He says it is totally different from two
weeks ago, when he said that
Pretty typical IMO.
everything was normal throughout the experience.
Normal??? Seems odd unless he is talking about lack of
visualizations/dialogs being “normal”.
When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing and
experiencing plenty. My
The ibogaine will out-last anti-emetics. If given
orally it would prove difficult to get more down them
(and keep it down) once they start getting sick.
Puking isn’t bad, too much can be, FWIW.
coworkers will be with him at all times but we are
clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
Which is to say INDRA still kicks butt 17 years after
being made. I hear people put it down for that reason
(it is so old…), they simply don’t know what they
are talking about. It does however seem more
unpredictable than HCL – which is itself,
unpredictable – the nature of… I myself have had
Indra from 2 different times, they were the same to
me. NOT that I am saying anything is “wrong” with
Ethnogardens extract.
I think it helps that he is not being physically
detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed.
For sure, IMO.
Sheldon used to think
counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question, but
this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously, and so
I’ll bet <<<ggg>>> he is! You can’t BS the ibo and it
ain’t no game. What some people do is fight it, which
seems to either be uncomfortable (understatement) or
somewhat blocked in getting to issues.
He told us he’s very
happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t
It can often be “felt” for months, depending of course
on the patient and dose. FOR MYSELF, I find a little
higher dose lasts much longer and is stronger – I
“feel” it more with HCL than Indra (after the initial
shaking it off, Indra takes longer for that).
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am now
getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a rural
property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
You are doing amazing work! Thank You.
Brett
__________________________________________________
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From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 6, 2002 at 9:12:28 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
jfreed1@umbc.edu 11/06/02 12:40AM >>>
That notion is an outdated theory, one which most therapists
knowledgeable
of the current research (at least that i’ve encountered) would not
agree
with. It is an idea born out of ignorance, and quite possibly greed.
The outdated theory is very much alive and well…the main issue being
“most therapists” are not knowledgable of current research according to
a recent study (Can’t recall the source, but it was within the past
month or so). If I recall correctly, around 60-70% of therapists in the
SA field did not stay abreast of the latest research. Of the
knowledgable therapists I’ve encountered, most have this outdated
belief…but they are typically more open to change. Just
hypothesizing, but your experience may be unduly biased due to your
apparent involvement in academia. Out in the trenches of the drug war,
the grunts gaze longingly at the TV guide and drag their butts in on
Mondays, and hardly work on Fridays…so their time is consumed simply
trying to stay on top of their caseloads and the paperwork. I make it a
point to spend at least 1-2 hours per day reading and researching.
While it is true that there are physiological processes underlying
addiction, and we are coming much closer to understanding what those
processes are, even if we could pinpoint precisely the neural systems
involved, there would still not be ONE cure suited for all people.
Agreed, but with a better understanding of the numerous neural
mechanisms involved, we may very well arrive at a standard, multifaceted
treatment regimen. Various modalities may need to be applied, and you
are correct, there wouldn’t likely be ONE cure, i.e., one treatement
mode. However, like your example of strep, we do have a standard,
effective approach…a certain class of anti-biotics. It certainly
won’t be as simple as strep, but the correct modalities, applied
accurately in an individualized approach, would ultimately lead to
readaptation.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander
userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–
–
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] After-care for Ibogaine-detoxers.
Date: November 6, 2002 at 7:57:21 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc said:
I think it helps that he is not being physically detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed. Sheldon used to think counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question, but this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously, and so we look forward to his
continued experience.
Andria responds:
Dear Marc,
Hattie, who is on this list, came to me sometime ago, asking about counselling after-care for folks who had just detoxed.
Like any other ex-user, self-help, and/or therapy of some kind does seem to be a good idea for most. This question led me to ask around the drugs-field/U.K., on who would be willing to take this on; my sense was that there would be a minority of psychologists/counsellors who could/would.
Often, but not always, they were ex-users, whose minds were open enough to listen to the Iboga experience without judgement, and just get on with being a friend to folks, who needed to reconnect to HUMANS as opposed to drugs. I hope this doesn’t sound weird, but according to psychoanalysts, addicts are a kinda-pervert(!) – gee, i ain’t had enough insults – who tend to attach to substances, rather than people. Put simply, we get outta practise, and need to relearn human-connectedness.
I wonder if setting up an post Iboga ex-user group, would be a good idea for some?
In England, I’m increasingly meeting post-Ibogaine people, who ALSO use general drug-services to stay off h & c, which i suspect is a fairly healthy situation
Warm regards
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Andria tries figuring!
Date: November 6, 2002 at 7:18:36 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dana writes:
Well, we’re (I’m) really trying. Honest. Instead of going to their conferences and hassling them, we’re trying to put on our own ibogaine forums and cannabis parades.
Andria responds:
And that Dana is, and may always be one of your great strengths. People really admire you for that. The fact that, even within difficult circumstances, U get things done regardless of the lack of ‘official’ support IS fan-flipping-tastic! I mibght add that ALL of us who do frontline work need to make sure WE r also well-supported. Many counsellors, other carers have support written into their job descriptions…
DB: Of course this means we have to pass up a lot of opportunities to meet people; but we’re not in situations where the people running things are pointing us out, and saying “steer clear.”
AM: That’s good.
If i ruled the world, money would be put into days where we could ALL – foot-soldiers/preachers/thinkers/writers etc – meet and talk through how/why we do different things. JUST B 2gether; actually what’s that millionaires name – he actually suggested that on the ARO list once, but everyone opted for another working conference! The one who reminds me of Gandolph. He has lots of red hair, & v. kindly face..
(This may be an Andria-thing, but it takes me long time to trust folks, and i think the only way U can trust folks often is getting to know them, and/or tial and error.) Our official-leadership are just doing the same us us: surviving: earning their bread and butter – they simply get more public acknowledgement & wages than us, BUT that isn’t all good.. Would U wanna meet Asa Hutchinson?!!
DB: And as far as our events go, they won’t participate. Go figure.
AM: (giggle..) Dana, imagine e on one of yr marches!! Dunno why, but i suddenly burst into giggles – he’s not a brave foot soldier like U, he’s a brave-preacher (instead). He flies around the planet preaching the anti-prohibition Torah, no?
Besides, y’know Ibogaine has a long-chequered history that has left it outside of the loop of major drug-treatments – bit like us and the status quo part of the movement. It’s kinda simple, they are establishment, and we are not – yet! AND speaking for myself DB, i find the strong right-wing Libertarian element in the movement difficult: the people are adorable but the politics make me shudder with terror, and that feeling gets 10x more intense at school, when Soros is sitting in 1 of our public lectures asking questions about good capitalists saving the developing world, and then i walk out onto the street and get mobbed by junkies begging … the divide between rich and poor grows: what can we do about that BIGGER issue?
I hope the Harlem event is a great success; I will be seeing Chris soon, and see what he says about May; from our brief interraction earlier this week, looks like he’s more interested in Europe right now, but hey i could b wrong.
B good 2 U.
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
Date: November 6, 2002 at 1:42:25 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Good job, persistance pays off with iboga. Hope it works out. Mundo
MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
We first dosed Sheldon exactly 14 days ago with 2300 mg of the ethnogarden
Iboga extract. 24 hours earlier he had fixed with meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than I realized.
The iboga extract did not elicit visualizations. In combination with 3
powerrful hash brownies, he slept through much of the iboga experience but
was nonetheless free of cravings/withdrawl for 7 days, when his welfare
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free, fixing only that once. Today we
administered 5,000 mg. of the indra extract which everyone here is more
familiar with. In one dose, preceded by gravol 30 minutes beforehand which
we are using for all patients now. That was 7 hours ago. Within one hour,
Sheldon said he was very ‘high’ but ‘without the dizziness’. When we asked
if it was a pot high, he said, no ‘a heroin high’. Visualizations and
hallucinations followed 30 minutes later and then got very intense for him,
seeing fast moving frames, photographs. He is still visualizing 5 hours
later. He says it is totally different from two weeks ago, when he said that
everything was normal throughout the experience. When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing and experiencing plenty. My
coworkers will be with him at all times but we are clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
I think it helps that he is not being physically detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed. Sheldon used to think counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question, but this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously, and so we look forward to his
continued experience.
Last week’s patient, the crack cocaine addict called to say his ‘old’ friend
called Todd up and “said he had a handful of coke, lets party, I told him to
forget it, it ain’t happening.” He told us he’s very happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t even thought of getting
high. Todd is 7 days clean now.
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am now getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a rural property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
Will keep everyone posted.
Marc Emery
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 6, 2002 at 12:40:01 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, Rick Venglarcik wrote:
I’m not so sure it is merely a matter of semantics. There seems to be
an inculcated belief system that chemical dependency is incurable. I
hear it all the time from counselors, physicians, AA and NA members, and
often find it stated in published research articles. It is considered a
disease that the person will have all of their life.
That notion is an outdated theory, one which most therapists knowledgeable
of the current research (at least that i’ve encountered) would not agree
with. It is an idea born out of ignorance, and quite possibly greed.
Certainly there is no ONE ULTIMATE cure (at this time), but if
long-term sobriety/recovery/”the cure” (whatever we call it) is boiled
down to its essence, it would seem likely that the same sorts of things
are occurring neurologically across the spectrum of the cured
population. Discover the commonality amongst that population, and it
may very well be possible to uncover and apply some sort of “almost” the
ultimate cure. It all takes place in the brain. Though it is a
herculean task, if ALL elements of the addiction process were known (in
terms of neurological adaptation, learning, encoding, etc.), it would
very be possible to effectuate readaptation…”the cure.” We will
always have non-compliance issues and those who don’t respond to
treatment, just as we have those who don’t respond to HIV cocktail
medications.
While it is true that there are physiological processes underlying
addiction, and we are coming much closer to understanding what those
processes are, even if we could pinpoint precisely the neural systems
involved, there would still not be ONE cure suited for all people.
Think, as an example, of strep throat. That is one strain of bacteria,
that affects one part of the body. And yet there are a myriad of different
anti-biotics, i can think of at least four off the top of my head.
Different antibiotics are better suited to different people. If such a
simplistic model of a disease requires multiple treatments to take into
account interpatient variabilty, wouldn’t make sense to conclude that a
considerably more complex situation, such as an addiction, would
necessitate at least as many different modes of treatment?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Back to our First Patient
Date: November 6, 2002 at 12:19:22 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
We first dosed Sheldon exactly 14 days ago with 2300 mg of the ethnogarden
Iboga extract. 24 hours earlier he had fixed with meth-amphetamine and
heroin, but $200 worth, a much larger dose than I realized.
The iboga extract did not elicit visualizations. In combination with 3
powerrful hash brownies, he slept through much of the iboga experience but
was nonetheless free of cravings/withdrawl for 7 days, when his welfare
cheque arrived and he went to cash it and he fixed.
In the last 7 days, he has been drug free, fixing only that once. Today we
administered 5,000 mg. of the indra extract which everyone here is more
familiar with. In one dose, preceded by gravol 30 minutes beforehand which
we are using for all patients now. That was 7 hours ago. Within one hour,
Sheldon said he was very ‘high’ but ‘without the dizziness’. When we asked
if it was a pot high, he said, no ‘a heroin high’. Visualizations and
hallucinations followed 30 minutes later and then got very intense for him,
seeing fast moving frames, photographs. He is still visualizing 5 hours
later. He says it is totally different from two weeks ago, when he said that
everything was normal throughout the experience. When I left him (40 minutes
ago) he was sweating and vomiting, visualizing and experiencing plenty. My
coworkers will be with him at all times but we are clearly impressed Sheldon
is having quite a self-actualization.
I think it helps that he is not being physically detoxed like last time, but
psychologically detoxed. Sheldon used to think counselling/analysis was a
game, he liked to predict their next question, but this self examination
through ibogaine he is seeing very seriously, and so we look forward to his
continued experience.
Last week’s patient, the crack cocaine addict called to say his ‘old’ friend
called Todd up and “said he had a handful of coke, lets party, I told him to
forget it, it ain’t happening.” He told us he’s very happy, ‘though I can
still smell and taste the ibogaine.’, and hasn’t even thought of getting
high. Todd is 7 days clean now.
My ads mentioning iboga are on the air, and I am now getting inquiries from
all over for treatment. We are looking at a rural property on Friday to
develop a permanent hospice for iboga therapy.
Will keep everyone posted.
Marc Emery
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] 1 for Dana
Date: November 5, 2002 at 10:32:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dana says:
My point is not cure vs. treatment vs medication. My point is that
millions of lives could be saved and the people who are supposed to
speak for our side are suppressing the very fact that Ibogaine even
exists. Actively, when it comes to blacklist myself and other
advocates from conferences, forums, media, and college tours.
Andria replies:
Dana,
I’m not sure that this is the best time to be going through this again but I will try 1 more time then i give up wid U.
I have seen U at conferences, and I note how U r treated; i also note the way you are spoken of AND i have defended U on a no. of occassions, but it is right here on this list clearly evident that U appear to be incapable of listening to others sometimes.
E.G Preston says clearly that Ibogaine has it’s place but is not THE answer. U virtually ignore that, and repeat this bizz of ‘they are actively surpressing the info about this cure.’ THEY R not. Dana, get some rest, and I will phone U when I am more relaxed also, otherwise i fear the conversation will not be constructive.
Dane, with leadership, one of it’s strengths is that WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.
This is not negotiable!
In a conversation; there are at least 2 people speaking, no? Chill out for crying out loud. Sort out Dana, and the rest will come naturally..BTW, I ONLY know this cos I can also be terribly inflexible sometimes too.
a
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
Well, we’re (I’m) really trying.
Honest.
Instead of going to their conferences and hassling them, we’re trying to put on our own ibogaine forums and cannabis parades.
Of course this means we have to pass up a lot of opportunities to meet people; but we’re not in situations where the people running things are pointing us out, and saying “steer clear.”
And as far as our events go, they won’t participate. Go figure.
Dana/cnw
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] WISDOM
Date: November 5, 2002 at 8:34:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Earthpod said:
Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
Well said Earthpod! This, for me, is a very important comment indeed.
Very well said
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 5, 2002 at 8:22:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I totally agree with you there, some of the greatest medicines from Mom Nature are bitter, and they are all herbs. P.S. traditional Oriental medical philosophies also considered minerals and animal products as “herbs”. Mundo.
ccadden <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>Opium, before the pipe was ingested orally, was very bitter, an had a very slow onset.<
The bitter herbs are traditionally known as the ones with the most powerful healing properties. Opium is not a drug, it’s an herb.
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
I said “relatively” low level of abuse (compared to modern day heroin). Water will drown you, the sun will burn you…what to do? Opium, before the pipe was ingested orally, was very bitter, an had a very slow onset. Ancient (pre-pipe) opium abuse was “relatively” obscure until the pipe hit the scene. then it all went down hill (Opium Wars, etc.) The Native Americans got their revenge on the invaders. Mundo
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”<
Are you sure about this? (well, I guess “relatively low” is probably correct, but what appears to have been some form of abuse was not unheard of)
Apparently, and though “abuse” might not be the correct term, “Arab, Greek and Roman physicians were familiar with the dangers of opium poisoning. Nicander of Colophon in the second century BC described the unconsciouness of someone who had drunk too deeply of opiate concoctions: ‘Their eyes do not open but are bond quite motionless by their eyelids. With the exhayustion an odorous sweat bathes all the body, turns cheeks pale, and causes the lips to swell: the bonbs of the jaw are relaxed, and through the throat the laboured breath passes faint and chill. And often either the livid nail or wrinkled nostril is a harbinger of death.'”
But then Marcus Arelius (AD 121-80), apparently used opium every day as ruler of Rome, (whose reign Edward Gibbon [in The History of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire- 1776] described as, “the period in the history of the world during which the condition of the human race was most happy) taken with honey, adjusting his doses to compensate for the times he needed to execute his imperial duties. “This is not the uncontrolled conduct of someone whose drug use has escalated into addiction requiring increased doses,” writes Richard Davenport-Hines in his book “In Pursuit of Oblivion- a Global History of Narcotics.”
And Paracelsus, (Phillppus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombast vno Hohenheim) invented Laudanum sometime before 1540, since that’s the year he died, which was an abused opiate-based drug that was not smoked.
Gosh, wish I knew someone who grew legal opium or made legal laudanum sometimes.;-))
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Yes, I am including all plant teachers as treasures, including coca and opium, (both of which I have experience). Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”. Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>! ! prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
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From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 8:22:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In present circumstances, people are trying to ‘cure’ many things, but it’s too late for me to get embroiled with that this evening. I’m already missing mornings, cos I’m overly committed to these e’s here.
What I will add to this discussion is that we are overlooking the issue of CHOICE, no? Whether we call it a disease, a socio-economic problem or self-opting choice to medicate for emotional reasons caused by any (all of the above) ther is choice in using or not. There is also, or ought to B choice about whether people can or will stop using
Perhaps, this is why the discussions become so fraught with deeply-felt emotion in the U.S and the U.K (often, though mostly not quite as intensely) WE as a group of patients should be able to choose, and we often don’t. Not to mention of course, once chemically-dependent, the sense of choice becomes quite difficult to see.
Solidarity & hugs; i really do have 2 sleep now!
andria x
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] 1 for Dana
Date: November 5, 2002 at 8:16:17 PM EST
To: Ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dana says:
My point is not cure vs. treatment vs medication. My point is that
millions of lives could be saved and the people who are supposed to
speak for our side are suppressing the very fact that Ibogaine even
exists. Actively, when it comes to blacklist myself and other
advocates from conferences, forums, media, and college tours.
Andria replies:
Dana,
I’m not sure that this is the best time to be going through this again but I will try 1 more time then i give up wid U.
I have seen U at conferences, and I note how U r treated; i also note the way you are spoken of AND i have defended U on a no. of occassions, but it is right here on this list clearly evident that U appear to be incapable of listening to others sometimes.
E.G Preston says clearly that Ibogaine has it’s place but is not THE answer. U virtually ignore that, and repeat this bizz of ‘they are actively surpressing the info about this cure.’ THEY R not. Dana, get some rest, and I will phone U when I am more relaxed also, otherwise i fear the conversation will not be constructive.
Dane, with leadership, one of it’s strengths is that WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.
This is not negotiable!
In a conversation; there are at least 2 people speaking, no? Chill out for crying out loud. Sort out Dana, and the rest will come naturally..BTW, I ONLY know this cos I can also be terribly inflexible sometimes too.
a
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 5, 2002 at 7:00:56 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Opium, before the pipe was ingested orally, was very bitter, an had a very slow onset.<
The bitter herbs are traditionally known as the ones with the most powerful healing properties. Opium is not a drug, it’s an herb.
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
I said “relatively” low level of abuse (compared to modern day heroin). Water will drown you, the sun will burn you…what to do? Opium, before the pipe was ingested orally, was very bitter, an had a very slow onset. Ancient (pre-pipe) opium abuse was “relatively” obscure until the pipe hit the scene. then it all went down hill (Opium Wars, etc.) The Native Americans got their revenge on the invaders. Mundo
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”<
Are you sure about this? (well, I guess “relatively low” is probably correct, but what appears to have been some form of abuse was not unheard of)
Apparently, and though “abuse” might not be the correct term, “Arab, Greek and Roman physicians were familiar with the dangers of opium poisoning. Nicander of Colophon in the second century BC described the unconsciouness of someone who had drunk too deeply of opiate concoctions: ‘Their eyes do not open but are bond quite motionless by their eyelids. With the exhayustion an odorous sweat bathes all the body, turns cheeks pale, and causes the lips to swell: the bonbs of the jaw are relaxed, and through the throat the laboured breath passes faint and chill. And often either the livid nail or wrinkled nostril is a harbinger of death.'”
But then Marcus Arelius (AD 121-80), apparently used opium every day as ruler of Rome, (whose reign Edward Gibbon [in The History of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire- 1776] described as, “the period in the history of the world during which the condition of the human race was most happy) taken with honey, adjusting his doses to compensate for the times he needed to execute his imperial duties. “This is not the uncontrolled conduct of someone whose drug use has escalated into addiction requiring increased doses,” writes Richard Davenport-Hines in his book “In Pursuit of Oblivion- a Global History of Narcotics.”
And Paracelsus, (Phillppus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombast vno Hohenheim) invented Laudanum sometime before 1540, since that’s the year he died, which was an abused opiate-based drug that was not smoked.
Gosh, wish I knew someone who grew legal opium or made legal laudanum sometimes.;-))
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Yes, I am including all plant teachers as treasures, including coca and opium, (both of which I have experience). Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”. Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>! ! prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
__________________________________________________________
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From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 5, 2002 at 6:21:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I said “relatively” low level of abuse (compared to modern day heroin). Water will drown you, the sun will burn you…what to do? Opium, before the pipe was ingested orally, was very bitter, an had a very slow onset. Ancient (pre-pipe) opium abuse was “relatively” obscure until the pipe hit the scene. then it all went down hill (Opium Wars, etc.) The Native Americans got their revenge on the invaders. Mundo
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”<
Are you sure about this? (well, I guess “relatively low” is probably correct, but what appears to have been some form of abuse was not unheard of)
Apparently, and though “abuse” might not be the correct term, “Arab, Greek and Roman physicians were familiar with the dangers of opium poisoning. Nicander of Colophon in the second century BC described the unconsciouness of someone who had drunk too deeply of opiate concoctions: ‘Their eyes do not open but are bond quite motionless by their eyelids. With the exhayustion an odorous sweat bathes all the body, turns cheeks pale, and causes the lips to swell: the bonbs of the jaw are relaxed, and through the throat the laboured breath passes faint and chill. And often either the livid nail or wrinkled nostril is a harbinger of death.'”
But then Marcus Arelius (AD 121-80), apparently used opium every day as ruler of Rome, (whose reign Edward Gibbon [in The History of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire- 1776] described as, “the period in the history of the world during which the condition of the human race was most happy) taken with honey, adjusting his doses to compensate for the times he needed to execute his imperial duties. “This is not the uncontrolled conduct of someone whose drug use has escalated into addiction requiring increased doses,” writes Richard Davenport-Hines in his book “In Pursuit of Oblivion- a Global History of Narcotics.”
And Paracelsus, (Phillppus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombast vno Hohenheim) invented Laudanum sometime before 1540, since that’s the year he died, which was an abused opiate-based drug that was not smoked.
Gosh, wish I knew someone who grew legal opium or made legal laudanum sometimes.;-))
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Yes, I am including all plant teachers as treasures, including coca and opium, (both of which I have experience). Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”. Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>! prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
__________________________________________________________
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 5, 2002 at 6:02:02 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”<
Are you sure about this? (well, I guess “relatively low” is probably correct, but what appears to have been some form of abuse was not unheard of)
Apparently, and though “abuse” might not be the correct term, “Arab, Greek and Roman physicians were familiar with the dangers of opium poisoning. Nicander of Colophon in the second century BC described the unconsciouness of someone who had drunk too deeply of opiate concoctions: ‘Their eyes do not open but are bond quite motionless by their eyelids. With the exhayustion an odorous sweat bathes all the body, turns cheeks pale, and causes the lips to swell: the bonbs of the jaw are relaxed, and through the throat the laboured breath passes faint and chill. And often either the livid nail or wrinkled nostril is a harbinger of death.'”
But then Marcus Arelius (AD 121-80), apparently used opium every day as ruler of Rome, (whose reign Edward Gibbon [in The History of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire- 1776] described as, “the period in the history of the world during which the condition of the human race was most happy) taken with honey, adjusting his doses to compensate for the times he needed to execute his imperial duties. “This is not the uncontrolled conduct of someone whose drug use has escalated into addiction requiring increased doses,” writes Richard Davenport-Hines in his book “In Pursuit of Oblivion- a Global History of Narcotics.”
And Paracelsus, (Phillppus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombast vno Hohenheim) invented Laudanum sometime before 1540, since that’s the year he died, which was an abused opiate-based drug that was not smoked.
Gosh, wish I knew someone who grew legal opium or made legal laudanum sometimes.;-))
Peace,
Preston
“To be happy is to be able to become
aware of oneself without fright.”
Walter Benjamin
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Yes, I am including all plant teachers as treasures, including coca and opium, (both of which I have experience). Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”. Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>! prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
__________________________________________________________
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ravi @ ravi-exports.com. Sign up for Rediffmail Pro today!
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 5, 2002 at 4:57:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up. <
I buy that.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Yes, I am including all plant teachers as treasures, including coca and opium, (both of which I have experience). Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”. Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>! prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
__________________________________________________________
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From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [digital@phantom.com: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Thank U Dana]
Date: November 5, 2002 at 4:34:52 PM EST
To: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Hey Patrick, I just got confirmation for the space yesterday. I called Dana today but he hasn’t called me back as of yet. But we are on for Nov. 30. That’s all I know as of now. viva la revolucion.
“Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com> wrote:
Nelson,
Hey mahn, I am forwarding this to you too, since I last talked with Dana 2
days ago, nothing has reached any greater level of clarity or
organization.
I can probably pull off SF right now, but we’re gonna have to fly there,
fly back to Miami, then fly to Seattle. American Airlines will not
reroute the flights, and it being thanksgiving around then, it is all
booked solid. Only SouthWest has any flights left, and those are climbing
higher in price by the day.
I am just letting you know what’s up, because I have this funny feeling
all those details and things, will not be making any imprint upon Dana,
until the day before, when he notices that nothing has been organized.
do0d,
PatricK
> ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 19:34:01 -0500
From: “Patrick K. Kroupa”
To: dana@cures-not-wars.org, aivia@phantom.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Re: Thank U Dana
On [Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 04:45:58PM -0500], [Dana Beal] wrote:
| Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
|
|
| San Francisco: November 29, 30 (w. myself, Patrick Kroupa, John
| Pablo) (415)567-0873 (Nelson)
|
| Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd (w. myself,
| Patrick Kroupa, John Pablo) (212)677-7180 (Dana)
|
| Paris: December 6 (w. Bertrand LeBeau, myself, Patrick Kroupa, John
| Pablo, Laurent Sazy, & an Nganga) 0033-614-815-679 (Farid)
| 0033-612-936-958 or 0033-144-939-357 (Aivia)
|
| NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Dana, a brief reality check:
John & I are cleared for Seattle, Paris, and NYC in Feb (my warrant will
be cleaned up by then, it’s being worked on). HOWEVER.
[01]: As of friday, we have a room and tickets booked FROM Miami, to
Seattle, and back to Miami. HRC == 100%. Nobody has been cleared for San
Francisco prior to that, there are no tickets there, if we do go, then we
need to go to SF, then back to Miami, then to Seattle.
[02]: We are 100% good to go for Paris. HOWEVER, we cannot book tickets
without payment. Nobody can order the tickets and rooms and then say,
“oh, this guy named Marc is gonna pay for it.” The answer will be: “well,
then have that guy named Marc call us up and book the flights and rooms.”
Additionally, it is quite likely that the situation will be IDENTICAL to
London. 1 double occupancy room paid for by and we will take
care of a second, because John will be taking his wife, while Bruce will
be meeting me to go hang out and fuck around in Paris.
Nobody here will front the money for Paris. When we went to London, Nick
simply took care of all of it. I have worked miracles here getting
Deborah to say okay. Her reply will be, “I don’t own any ibogaine
patents, I don’t give a shit who talks where, and I’m already losing money
on time I’m paying you, while both of you are bouncing around the world,
and Seattle is costing me in the neighhborhood of $1700 out of pocket for
the two of you.” If pushed, her response will turn to: okay, fuck it all,
nobody is going anywhere.
2-3 weeks out are cheaper fares. If you push all of this to the last
minute, Paris is going to cost twice as much for the transport. Between
week #3 and week #2, the price for round trip tickets, will change from
roughly $450 bucks, to $750 bucks, and keep climbing.
San Francisco is completely up in the air. Nobody has been cleared for it
at all. It might be a SUPER idea to reschedule it for Jan or something.
Since the only people expected to be present are you, me, John, and
Nelson, who lives there.
Patrick
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From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 5, 2002 at 4:32:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes, I am including all plant teachers as treasures, including coca and opium, (both of which I have experience). Opium had a relatively low level of abuse until the pipe was introduced to Europe via travelers to the “New World”. Its not the plant, its what humans do with it that fucks stuff up.
preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
__________________________________________________________
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] relaxing with nature and myself
Date: November 5, 2002 at 3:42:20 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come >from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. <
So are you including opium and coca leaves in this assessment of what is a treasure? I hope so.
I could just as easily write, “people who insist there’s a cure for drug addiction presume that they know better than nature, ignoring or discounting the idea that a person drawn to use drugs, any drugs, just may be following their own subconscious nature and therefore to insist they change that nature even if it is hurting no one but themselves, if even that, because someone thinks them unbalanced or in need of curing is a wee bit presumptuous.”
But of course, that would also imply that people insisting that one knows what are treasures of nature for us all and what aren’t are also following their own nature, so what do you know, full spiral.
Peace AND respect,
Preston
“Turn off your minds, relax, and float downstream.
This is not dying.”
Tibetan Book of the Dead/The Beatles
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I
see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure
or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting
paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s
about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part
of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a
balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by
taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice
message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
>Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind
>didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And
>this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure”
>prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and
>treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and
>finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.)
>Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting
>the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to
>achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of
>course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the
>air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the
>brainwashing. Mundo.
>
__________________________________________________________
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 2:18:28 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Slower onset of tolerance and long-term, low
opiate
> dosers may point to
> CYP2D6 deficiencies. Thoughts?
Sure, there are indicators of low/no CYP2D6. For
instance people who DO NOT respond to codeine because
of low/no CYP2D6 (which is needed to convert it to
morphine) seem like they would be slow metabolizers of
ibogaine. The pieces are all there to come to some
conclusions about ibogaine metabolism without running
a test – codeine is one example, I am sure there are
others, be it low tolerance or HIGH/ineffective –
depending on how CYP2D6 is used. The body will also
respond to substances and use resources it needs, eg
there is a seaweed us Westerners cannot utilize
because we lack a certain digestive enzyme, that is
till you start introducing said seaweed into the diet,
then. In cases of rats who are ibogaine resistant,
repeated doses become effective – is the body
responding (well obviously, but how) to this new
substance.
I have noticed that people who are druggie
lightweights can be hit pretty hard with ibogaine and
those folks who can do very high doses of drugs (in
general) tend to be hit less hard, usually it seems
with alcohol being the most common substance I can
finger – don’t have a clue how it is metabolized
though.
There are drugs which can also enhance CYP2D6 usage.
One "popular" combination is doriden (sp?) and
codeine, called "HITS". THis is where you take
doriden and it enhances CYP2D6 so the codeine makes
more morphine (than the usual 10% I think).
This is an area of interest of mine, I have been
poking at it for a while now to gain understanding and
be dangerous…
I guess one could research a dozen or so common
substances that use CYP2D6 (one way or the other AS
WELL as other enzymes that may "take over")
and make a guestimation chart for the effects of
ibogaine.
Or of course you can get tested for CYP2D6 – I think
it was around $140 (check the URL’s) – enough to put
off the do-it-yourselfer dope fiend trying to get
themselves clean on their own… Such a chart/question
list could be very useful.
>
> _____________________________________
> Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
> Hampton Roads Clinic
> 2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
> Hampton, VA 23666
>
> Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
> Fax: (757) 826-2772
> Cell: (757) 270-9839
> _____________________________________
>
>
> >>> bcalabrese@yahoo.com 11/05/02
10:42AM >>>
> > it would be
> > naive to say that it is THE treatment for
> EVERYONE.
>
> No doubt.
>
> > There simply isn’t
> > such a thing. For one, some people lack the
enzyme
> > needed to metabolise
> > it.
>
> It is not that they cannot metabolize ibogaine,
it
> is
> just they do it slower than most other folks. For
> instance ibogaine is mostly metabolized via
CYP2D6
> but
> is also metabolized using CYP3A4. There are 70
> different flavors (variations) of the gene that
> makes
> CYP2D6 (in 4 basic speeds, VERY slow, slow,
medium
> and
> fast – or there abouts). As I understand it, the
> "problem" is that ibogaine is not
metabolized fast
> enough in people who are deficient in CYP2D6 and
> ibogaine can build up to very high levels, this
is
> one
> reason a tester dose is given and reaction noted.
In
> such cases as a hypersensitivity there are ways
> around
> the "problem" such as reducing the dose,
using a
> slower acting form of ibogaine (eg Indra),
spreading
> the dose out… can resolve the issue. Note I do
not
> fully understand this stuff, just what it seems
to
> be
> (to me) from reading.
>
> Cytochrome P450 2D6 Phenotype Assignment from
> Genotype
> Data
>
>
http://www.kumc.edu/research/kumc_ri/cytochromep450cmh006.htm
>
>
> THIS IS NICE!
>
> Prescription Drug Reaction Testing
> Drug Metabolization Guide
>
> (note, ibogaine is listed as a "prescription
drug"
> <g>)
>
> http://www.healthanddna.com/drugchart.PDF
>
> My suspicion about tylenol using CYP2D6 is
correct –
> it has been used to boost the dream phase (1.5gm)
> after ibogaine levels have dropped off – hence it
> seems like it "HOGS" CYP2D6 allowing
ibogaine still
> being absorbed to hang around as ibogaine a
little
> longer and to build back up to levels required
for
> lucid dreaming.
>
> In looking at the chart (1/4th of all
prescription
> drugs use CYP2D6) it becomes pretty obvious one
of
> the
> reasons NOT to mix ibogaine with medications is
> because of this enzyme interaction.
>
> PHARMACOKINETIC DISPOSITION OF IBOGAINE AFTER
ORAL
> ADMINISTRATION TO HUMAN
> SUBJECTS
>
> (info on CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 and ibogaine)
>
> http://www.cerebral.org/Maps/msg00479.html
>
> > Other people may fear the long, intense
> > psychedelic experience; who
>
> Addicts fear. It is a (not "the") primary
reason
> (IMO)
> they have a hard time getting clean. Maybe it is
> better to lie to them like the UROD (pimps!),
"oh,
> you
> will be fine, go to sleep and it will all, be
over
> when you wake up" – that is if you wake up…
They
> don’t tell you stuff like those nastly little
side
> effects from naltrexone, like "spontanious
death" or
> suicide… OR that naltrexone given to an addict
CAN
> cause hallucinations… not fun ones either!
"WE"
> don’t need to know. Ibogaine PIMP classes
starting
> soon.
>
> > knows what other reasons people might have
for
> > opting for a different
> > therapy. But the point is that it is vital
to take
> > into account the
> > variability of the human experience.
>
> In all treatment modalities.
>
> Brett
>
> >
> > Now note, this isn’t to downplay the
importance of
> > ibogaine, i think its
> > clearly the biggest breakthrough in
addiction
> > treatment. But we oughtn’t
> > get carried away and lose sight of the
nature of
> > reality, nor humanity.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
__________________________________________________________________________
> > Jon Freedlander
> > userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
> > Consulting Editor
> > Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
> >
>
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
>
> > –
>
> > –
> >
>
————————————————————————–
> > It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on
people.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] marc emery interviews ex-addict
Date: November 5, 2002 at 2:09:58 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse1606.ram
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 1:40:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think what Dana is saying is not that all these people need to start making ibogaine their main priority. Which I must say is not realistic because I haven’t really seen any potheads care much about junkies or crackheads. When someone does care it is so far from what I have seen, always the result of either having been a junkie themselves or have one in their family somewhere so it has become a personal issue to them, like the pot.
I think what he’s saying is, that it’s not right of these people to try and stop him when he promotes ibogaine and blacklist him or pull his funding because of that and come up with excuses why they are doing it.
If my take on it is wrong I am sure Dana will speak up 🙂 And this is my take on what Dana is saying, all the people he mentioned haven’t written in a reply though some of them do from time to time, so I don’t know if that really is what any of them think.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Dana Beal wrote :
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, Rick Venglarcik wrote:
I must say I agree that Ibogaine isn’t necessarily “the” cure, but I
think you need to rethink the whole idea that “there is NO CURE.” Who
says?
Can we prove a negative?
So again…you believe “there is no cure.” Where does that belief come
from? What is your foundation for adopting this position?f?
I think what we’re arguing now is a matter of semantics.
Perhaps it would be more to your liking to say that there is no ONE
ULTIMATE cure?
My point is not cure vs. treatment vs medication. My point is that millions of lives could be saved and the people who are supposed to speak for our side are suppressing the very fact that Ibogaine even exists. Actively, when it comes to blacklist myself and other advocates from conferences, forums, media, and college tours.
Dana/cnw
__________________________________________________________
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From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 1:30:53 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
The Naltrexone Connection
Just read this recently. thought you’d enjoy.
…a two year study of 3,617 Washington heroin addicts, conducted by
James Fellows-Smith, psychiatrist and George O’Neil, M.D., found the
following:
Heroin addict on the street…1 in 100 chance of dying.
Opiate addict on methadone…..1 in 458.
Opiate addicts on Naltrexone… kill rate of 1 in 61.
I’d opt for the streets, methadone, or ibogaine with those kind of
numbers. Naltrexone kills.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
bcalabrese@yahoo.com 11/05/02 10:42AM >>>
the UROD (pimps!), “oh, you
will be fine, go to sleep and it will all, be over
when you wake up” – that is if you wake up… They
don’t tell you stuff like those nastly little side
effects from naltrexone, like “spontanious death” or
suicide… OR that naltrexone given to an addict CAN
cause hallucinations… not fun ones either! “WE”
don’t need to know. Ibogaine PIMP classes starting
soon.
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 1:22:54 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Interesting. A recent study to be published in JDAD found that higher
methadone maintenance doses correlate to greater metabolization by the
CYP450 system, primarily CYP3A4. Compared to “low dose” groups (, the
“Very High” dose patients had 76% greater CYP3A4 activity.
I wonder if this also follows for 2D6 activity.
In addition to a test dose of ibogaine prior to administration, this
information would point to the importance of getting an accurate and
detailed opiate useage history and a history of tolerance development.
Slower onset of tolerance and long-term, low opiate dosers may point to
CYP2D6 deficiencies. Thoughts?
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
bcalabrese@yahoo.com 11/05/02 10:42AM >>>
it would be
naive to say that it is THE treatment for EVERYONE.
No doubt.
There simply isn’t
such a thing. For one, some people lack the enzyme
needed to metabolise
it.
It is not that they cannot metabolize ibogaine, it is
just they do it slower than most other folks. For
instance ibogaine is mostly metabolized via CYP2D6 but
is also metabolized using CYP3A4. There are 70
different flavors (variations) of the gene that makes
CYP2D6 (in 4 basic speeds, VERY slow, slow, medium and
fast – or there abouts). As I understand it, the
“problem” is that ibogaine is not metabolized fast
enough in people who are deficient in CYP2D6 and
ibogaine can build up to very high levels, this is one
reason a tester dose is given and reaction noted. In
such cases as a hypersensitivity there are ways around
the “problem” such as reducing the dose, using a
slower acting form of ibogaine (eg Indra), spreading
the dose out… can resolve the issue. Note I do not
fully understand this stuff, just what it seems to be
(to me) from reading.
Cytochrome P450 2D6 Phenotype Assignment from Genotype
Data
http://www.kumc.edu/research/kumc_ri/cytochromep450cmh006.htm
THIS IS NICE!
Prescription Drug Reaction Testing
Drug Metabolization Guide
(note, ibogaine is listed as a “prescription drug”
<g>)
http://www.healthanddna.com/drugchart.PDF
My suspicion about tylenol using CYP2D6 is correct –
it has been used to boost the dream phase (1.5gm)
after ibogaine levels have dropped off – hence it
seems like it “HOGS” CYP2D6 allowing ibogaine still
being absorbed to hang around as ibogaine a little
longer and to build back up to levels required for
lucid dreaming.
In looking at the chart (1/4th of all prescription
drugs use CYP2D6) it becomes pretty obvious one of the
reasons NOT to mix ibogaine with medications is
because of this enzyme interaction.
PHARMACOKINETIC DISPOSITION OF IBOGAINE AFTER ORAL
ADMINISTRATION TO HUMAN
SUBJECTS
(info on CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 and ibogaine)
http://www.cerebral.org/Maps/msg00479.html
Other people may fear the long, intense
psychedelic experience; who
Addicts fear. It is a (not “the”) primary reason (IMO)
they have a hard time getting clean. Maybe it is
better to lie to them like the UROD (pimps!), “oh, you
will be fine, go to sleep and it will all, be over
when you wake up” – that is if you wake up… They
don’t tell you stuff like those nastly little side
effects from naltrexone, like “spontanious death” or
suicide… OR that naltrexone given to an addict CAN
cause hallucinations… not fun ones either! “WE”
don’t need to know. Ibogaine PIMP classes starting
soon.
knows what other reasons people might have for
opting for a different
therapy. But the point is that it is vital to take
into account the
variability of the human experience.
In all treatment modalities.
Brett
Now note, this isn’t to downplay the importance of
ibogaine, i think its
clearly the biggest breakthrough in addiction
treatment. But we oughtn’t
get carried away and lose sight of the nature of
reality, nor humanity.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander
userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–
–
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 1:22:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>but I
think you need to rethink the whole idea that “there is NO CURE.” Who
says?
Can we prove a negative?<
Hmmm, I suppose yer right about that. I just don’t know exactly what the “cure” might be, if there is even only one of ’em. Maybe there’s thousands of fixes or solutions..
I just wouldn’t necessarily call drug use, even “addiction,” a “disease” in need of a “cure” so my choice of words was not clear.
While I see the point of this statement: “If chemical dependency is a result of neurological adaptation caused by
regular use of drugs, it stands to reason that the brain can be
readapted to a normalized state,” I wonder about why people go to use these drugs in the first place. What exactly is it people are trying to cure? The physical dependency? The urge to use in the first place? The harms that usually result >from drug abuse? The wrong thinking?
Peace,
Preston
In common parlance, a maintenance is something you have to do every day for the rest of our life. An addiction interrupter is closer to the popular conception of a “cure,” is all I meant to say. UROD doesn’t qualify cause you have to keep taking trexan, whereas with ibo at most you need a small booster dose whenever you start to get cravings.
In fact the closer parallel I can think of is chemo for cancer, except that ibo is no way as unpleasant as chemo. Chemo doesn’t “cure” you of cancer, either.
Dana/cnw
Dana/cnw
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 1:21:49 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I think this is completely the case and too true.
This thinking comes much more from my own point of view and how I see things. It’s what Rick just said about the whole idea of cure or not cure existing, it’s what patrick says about just shifting paradigms, though I’m not sure lsd grew in the jungle 🙂 it’s about the way you look at the world and your own place in the part of things.
restoring balance, or even at least acknowledging that there is a balance not just these disconnected problems that are solved by taking one drug or another.
I am very much in tune with the page you are on bro. Very nice message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Mundo Real wrote :
Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure” prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.) Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the brainwashing. Mundo.
__________________________________________________________
Give your Company an email address like
ravi @ ravi-exports.com. Sign up for Rediffmail Pro today!
Know more. http://www.rediffmailpro.com/signup/
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 1:00:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>My point is, what happens to the individual can’t be predicted; only the mass application of ibo gives some kind of meaningful result, <
Huh? What do you mean? Mass application of ibo?
Peace,
Preston
Such as the experience of ibeginagain in doing 400 treatments. This phenomena needs to be measured better. That involves statistics, not trying to jimmy the outcome of one treatment, which is what people have friends and family for. Marc is special because he has a) political cover, b) resources, c) a mass movement supporting him. That his son is an addict is important, but personal, not political.
I talking about a movement to make ibogaine available for addicts.
Dana/cnw
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 11:54:59 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nature contains Nature. And humanity is part of Nature. Mankind didn’t create any diseases that Nature couldn’t take care of. And this includes addiction. People who avoid using the word “cure” prefer to live in a society where disease, imbalance, and treatment pimps are the norm. Cures come from honoring Nature and finding its treasures (iboga, ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms, etc.) Not too surprising that these things are all illegal. Shifting the focus onto health and balance will be paramount if we want to achieve maximum potential, as individuals, and as a society. Of course, the pharmaceutical companies don’t put commercials on the air telling you that this is even possible. Enough with the brainwashing. Mundo.
Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu> wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
> It is not my place to justify anyone’s actions, ever, but my own Dana.
> I happen to like very much what all of the above are doing, each in their own ways on their own paths, but that’s my take on life in general.
> “Actively suppressing the cure for addiction?” Um, in my own humble opinion, there is NO CURE. Hmmm, could swear I’ve been through this before…there are only tools Dana. Ibogaine, as near as I can tell, if NOT a cure but for some it is a clean break from withdrawal, and for some I guess a very beautiful experience.
> I met more than one person on the streets of NYC who raved at me in my junkydom about having done Ibogaine and how beautiful everything was, then saw them later back strung out. More than once, more than twice as a matter of fact. I hear and read about it all the time. Every person finds their own route, of which ibogaine CAN BE one but obviously isn’t for everyone, as near as I can tell.
I very much agree with you. While i think ibogaine therapy probably shows
greater success rates than many other forms of treatment, it would be
naive to say that it is THE treatment for EVERYONE. There simply isn’t
such a thing. For one, some people lack the enzyme needed to metabolise
it. Other people may fear the long, intense psychedelic experience; who
knows what other reasons people might have for opting for a different
therapy. But the point is that it is vital to take into account the
variability of the human experience.
Now note, this isn’t to downplay the importance of ibogaine, i think its
clearly the biggest breakthrough in addiction treatment. But we oughtn’t
get carried away and lose sight of the nature of reality, nor humanity.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Stray thoughts, Bill W., LSD and Spiritual Revelations
Date: November 5, 2002 at 11:30:41 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m sure that many on this listalready know that Bill W., the founder of
AA, was an enthusiastic supporter of LSD use for the treatment of
alcoholism. For those who weren’t aware, Bill tripped for about 4
years (1956-1959, I believe), during which he actively promoted LSD use.
He stopped promoting its use primarily because he was the leading
figure for AA., and his activities were frowned upon. But did he stop
tripping?
His spiritual revelation came as a result of meeting with his friend
Bob S., who was another hopeless alcoholic, who had gotten religion.
This was near the end of December 1934, and Bob S. had only been clean
for two months. Bill credits this meeting with providing him a
spiritual awakening, ultimately enabling him to become sober. Bill took
his last drink in June 1935.
Prior to that meeing with Bob S., some time in the fall of 1933, Bill
W. was given the psychoactive, hallucinogenic substance Belladonna,
which was then known as the Belladonna treatment. He stayed clean for
3-4 months. One can only wonder at what the precursor for Bill’s
spiritual awakening actually was…and what the outcome would have been
if Bob S. had met with Bill in that 3 or 4 month time span after he had
gone-a-flyin’ on the broomstick.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Sacrilegious? No. Brave? Yep!
Date: November 5, 2002 at 11:05:34 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
i’ll never know if my
depression would have gotten that bad had i not been a junky…<
or on the obverse, if your depression didn’t actually lead you to dope. I hope you’re feeling cool nowadays.
Peace,
probably a bit of both, come to think of it.
i’m doing a good deal better, thanx very much =)
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 11:02:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>but I
think you need to rethink the whole idea that “there is NO CURE.” Who
says?
Can we prove a negative?<
Hmmm, I suppose yer right about that. I just don’t know exactly what the “cure” might be, if there is even only one of ’em. Maybe there’s thousands of fixes or solutions..
I just wouldn’t necessarily call drug use, even “addiction,” a “disease” in need of a “cure” so my choice of words was not clear.
While I see the point of this statement: “If chemical dependency is a result of neurological adaptation caused by
regular use of drugs, it stands to reason that the brain can be
readapted to a normalized state,” I wonder about why people go to use these drugs in the first place. What exactly is it people are trying to cure? The physical dependency? The urge to use in the first place? The harms that usually result from drug abuse? The wrong thinking?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Venglarcik
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
I must say I agree that Ibogaine isn’t necessarily “the” cure, but I
think you need to rethink the whole idea that “there is NO CURE.” Who
says?
Can we prove a negative?
If chemical dependency is a result of neurological adaptation caused by
regular use of drugs, it stands to reason that the brain can be
readapted to a normalized state. The myth of “the magic bullet,” is just
that…a myth. However, if it takes 4, 5, 6, or even 10 slugs from the
Winchester, and people stay clean, then there is a cure. One approach
won’t work for everyone, of course, as dependency is a multi-faceted
problem. This simply means that “the cure” will almost always require a
number of simultaneously applied approaches to effectuate readaptation.
IMO, “the cure” is out there. Structured, inside-the-box, system-think,
is not very conducive to discovering new approaches, so the answers will
come in places like this, from the thousands who get unsprung, and from
the findings of neuroscience…not box-thinkers who believe there is no
cure. The problem IS curable…it is merely an issue of discovering all
of the variables required, and the need for the individual to apply the
appropriate treatment regimens (most will likely require individualized
approaches) as needed
Let’s do away with the idea that “there is no cure.” I have failed to
find the mountains of evidence that supports this position. I have
merely the adages of the “old-timers” in AA, a few scientists offering
their OPINIONS, and scads of SA counselors who are merely parroting the
party-line.
So again…you believe “there is no cure.” Where does that belief come
from? What is your foundation for adopting this position?f?
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
>>> ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 11/05/02 04:44AM >>>
> Um, in my own humble opinion, there is NO CURE. Hmmm, could swear
I’ve been through this before…there are only tools Dana.
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 10:59:30 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m not so sure it is merely a matter of semantics. There seems to be
an inculcated belief system that chemical dependency is incurable. I
hear it all the time from counselors, physicians, AA and NA members, and
often find it stated in published research articles. It is considered a
disease that the person will have all of their life.
Certainly there is no ONE ULTIMATE cure (at this time), but if
long-term sobriety/recovery/”the cure” (whatever we call it) is boiled
down to its essence, it would seem likely that the same sorts of things
are occurring neurologically across the spectrum of the cured
population. Discover the commonality amongst that population, and it
may very well be possible to uncover and apply some sort of “almost” the
ultimate cure. It all takes place in the brain. Though it is a
herculean task, if ALL elements of the addiction process were known (in
terms of neurological adaptation, learning, encoding, etc.), it would
very be possible to effectuate readaptation…”the cure.” We will
always have non-compliance issues and those who don’t respond to
treatment, just as we have those who don’t respond to HIV cocktail
medications.
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
jfreed1@umbc.edu 11/05/02 10:14AM >>>
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, Rick Venglarcik wrote:
I must say I agree that Ibogaine isn’t necessarily “the” cure, but I
think you need to rethink the whole idea that “there is NO CURE.”
Who
says?
Can we prove a negative?
So again…you believe “there is no cure.” Where does that belief
come
from? What is your foundation for adopting this position?f?
I think what we’re arguing now is a matter of semantics.
Perhaps it would be more to your liking to say that there is no ONE
ULTIMATE cure?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander
userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–
–
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 10:54:49 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>My point is, what happens to the individual can’t be predicted; only the mass application of ibo gives some kind of meaningful result, <
Huh? What do you mean? Mass application of ibo?
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
>But still, you cannot justify what H.T./DPA/NORML–Hager, Nadelman, Stroup and Zeese are doing compared to Marc Emery.
THEY ARE ACTIVELY SUPPRESSING THE CURE FOR ADDICTIONS.
…while Life turns to Death for Millions of People.<
It is not my place to justify anyone’s actions, ever, but my own Dana.
I happen to like very much what all of the above are doing, each in their own ways on their own paths, but that’s my take on life in general.
“Actively suppressing the cure for addiction?” Um, in my own humble opinion, there is NO CURE. Hmmm, could swear I’ve been through this before…there are only tools Dana. Ibogaine, as near as I can tell, if NOT a cure but for some it is a clean break from withdrawal, and for some I guess a very beautiful experience.
I met more than one person on the streets of NYC who raved at me in my junkydom about having done Ibogaine and how beautiful everything was, then saw them later back strung out. More than once, more than twice as a matter of fact. I hear and read about it all the time. Every person finds their own route, of which ibogaine CAN BE one but obviously isn’t for everyone, as near as I can tell.
Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“Prohibition creates an irresistibly lucrative
opportunity for entrepreneurs willing to operate
in illicit business. It is the policy
of idealists who cannot appreciate that the use
of drugs often reflects other sets of human
ideals: human perfectibility, the yearning
for a perfect moment, the peace that comes
from oblivion.” Richard Davenport-Hines
Well then why are they pressuring me to drop Ibogaine. And saying that Ibogaine work is incompatible with heading up the Million Marijuana March. Last year H.T. stopped giving us money, while Emery sent enough that all our contacts worldwide were still able to get their posters.
Was there an Ibogaine workshop at the DPF this year. Instead, Nadelman informed me I was banned from speaking. Zeese is doing a tour touting methadone, and only mentions Ibogaine in those rare locations where some one buttonholes him.
My point is, what happens to the individual can’t be predicted; only the mass application of ibo gives some kind of meaningful result, and that is being thwarted by the LEGALIZERS, not the gov’t (although they are also, which is to be expected).
Marc is the model that people ought to be following.
Dana/cnw
Dana/cnw
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Sacrilegious? No. Brave? Yep!
Date: November 5, 2002 at 10:52:10 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>i’ll never know if my
depression would have gotten that bad had i not been a junky…<
or on the obverse, if your depression didn’t actually lead you to dope. I hope you’re feeling cool nowadays.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Jon Freedlander
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Sacrilegious? No. Brave? Yep!
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 AndriaE@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Preston, everybody
>
> U make a very important point here methinks.
> And everytime i go back to the British System book i told U about, i recall
> their reasoning for prescribing: we were/are thought to be people with a
> albeit minor mental illness, who need drugs on script, like depressives get
> SSRIs etc. I’d be interested, e.g. to know how many of us are now on prozac,
> instead of methadone or H.
Make no mistake, drug addiction is by no means a minor mental illness. For
the record, i’m on two anti-depressants (remeron and effexor) and an
anti-parkinsons drug (mirapex, for a sleeping disorder). i’ll never know if my
depression would have gotten that bad had i not been a junky…
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 10:45:39 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, Rick Venglarcik wrote:
I must say I agree that Ibogaine isn’t necessarily “the” cure, but I
think you need to rethink the whole idea that “there is NO CURE.” Who
says?
Can we prove a negative?
So again…you believe “there is no cure.” Where does that belief come
from? What is your foundation for adopting this position?f?
I think what we’re arguing now is a matter of semantics.
Perhaps it would be more to your liking to say that there is no ONE
ULTIMATE cure?
My point is not cure vs. treatment vs medication. My point is that
millions of lives could be saved and the people who are supposed to
speak for our side are suppressing the very fact that Ibogaine even
exists. Actively, when it comes to blacklist myself and other
advocates from conferences, forums, media, and college tours.
Dana/cnw
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 10:42:17 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
it would be
naive to say that it is THE treatment for EVERYONE.
No doubt.
There simply isn’t
such a thing. For one, some people lack the enzyme
needed to metabolise
it.
It is not that they cannot metabolize ibogaine, it is
just they do it slower than most other folks. For
instance ibogaine is mostly metabolized via CYP2D6 but
is also metabolized using CYP3A4. There are 70
different flavors (variations) of the gene that makes
CYP2D6 (in 4 basic speeds, VERY slow, slow, medium and
fast – or there abouts). As I understand it, the
“problem” is that ibogaine is not metabolized fast
enough in people who are deficient in CYP2D6 and
ibogaine can build up to very high levels, this is one
reason a tester dose is given and reaction noted. In
such cases as a hypersensitivity there are ways around
the “problem” such as reducing the dose, using a
slower acting form of ibogaine (eg Indra), spreading
the dose out… can resolve the issue. Note I do not
fully understand this stuff, just what it seems to be
(to me) from reading.
Cytochrome P450 2D6 Phenotype Assignment from Genotype
Data
http://www.kumc.edu/research/kumc_ri/cytochromep450cmh006.htm
THIS IS NICE!
Prescription Drug Reaction Testing
Drug Metabolization Guide
(note, ibogaine is listed as a “prescription drug”
<g>)
http://www.healthanddna.com/drugchart.PDF
My suspicion about tylenol using CYP2D6 is correct –
it has been used to boost the dream phase (1.5gm)
after ibogaine levels have dropped off – hence it
seems like it “HOGS” CYP2D6 allowing ibogaine still
being absorbed to hang around as ibogaine a little
longer and to build back up to levels required for
lucid dreaming.
In looking at the chart (1/4th of all prescription
drugs use CYP2D6) it becomes pretty obvious one of the
reasons NOT to mix ibogaine with medications is
because of this enzyme interaction.
PHARMACOKINETIC DISPOSITION OF IBOGAINE AFTER ORAL
ADMINISTRATION TO HUMAN
SUBJECTS
(info on CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 and ibogaine)
http://www.cerebral.org/Maps/msg00479.html
Other people may fear the long, intense
psychedelic experience; who
Addicts fear. It is a (not “the”) primary reason (IMO)
they have a hard time getting clean. Maybe it is
better to lie to them like the UROD (pimps!), “oh, you
will be fine, go to sleep and it will all, be over
when you wake up” – that is if you wake up… They
don’t tell you stuff like those nastly little side
effects from naltrexone, like “spontanious death” or
suicide… OR that naltrexone given to an addict CAN
cause hallucinations… not fun ones either! “WE”
don’t need to know. Ibogaine PIMP classes starting
soon.
knows what other reasons people might have for
opting for a different
therapy. But the point is that it is vital to take
into account the
variability of the human experience.
In all treatment modalities.
Brett
Now note, this isn’t to downplay the importance of
ibogaine, i think its
clearly the biggest breakthrough in addiction
treatment. But we oughtn’t
get carried away and lose sight of the nature of
reality, nor humanity.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander
userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
–
–
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 10:14:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, Rick Venglarcik wrote:
I must say I agree that Ibogaine isn’t necessarily “the” cure, but I
think you need to rethink the whole idea that “there is NO CURE.” Who
says?
Can we prove a negative?
So again…you believe “there is no cure.” Where does that belief come
from? What is your foundation for adopting this position?f?
I think what we’re arguing now is a matter of semantics.
Perhaps it would be more to your liking to say that there is no ONE
ULTIMATE cure?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: “Rick Venglarcik” <RickV@hnncsb.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 10:07:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I must say I agree that Ibogaine isn’t necessarily “the” cure, but I
think you need to rethink the whole idea that “there is NO CURE.” Who
says?
Can we prove a negative?
If chemical dependency is a result of neurological adaptation caused by
regular use of drugs, it stands to reason that the brain can be
readapted to a normalized state. The myth of “the magic bullet,” is just
that…a myth. However, if it takes 4, 5, 6, or even 10 slugs from the
Winchester, and people stay clean, then there is a cure. One approach
won’t work for everyone, of course, as dependency is a multi-faceted
problem. This simply means that “the cure” will almost always require a
number of simultaneously applied approaches to effectuate readaptation.
IMO, “the cure” is out there. Structured, inside-the-box, system-think,
is not very conducive to discovering new approaches, so the answers will
come in places like this, from the thousands who get unsprung, and from
the findings of neuroscience…not box-thinkers who believe there is no
cure. The problem IS curable…it is merely an issue of discovering all
of the variables required, and the need for the individual to apply the
appropriate treatment regimens (most will likely require individualized
approaches) as needed
Let’s do away with the idea that “there is no cure.” I have failed to
find the mountains of evidence that supports this position. I have
merely the adages of the “old-timers” in AA, a few scientists offering
their OPINIONS, and scads of SA counselors who are merely parroting the
party-line.
So again…you believe “there is no cure.” Where does that belief come
from? What is your foundation for adopting this position?f?
_____________________________________
Rick Venglarcik, MA, CSAC
Hampton Roads Clinic
2236 W. Queen St., Suite C
Hampton, VA 23666
Office: (757) 827-8430 x144
Fax: (757) 826-2772
Cell: (757) 270-9839
_____________________________________
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com 11/05/02 04:44AM >>>
Um, in my own humble opinion, there is NO CURE. Hmmm, could swear
I’ve been through this before…there are only tools Dana.
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 9:41:10 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
It is not my place to justify anyone’s actions, ever, but my own Dana.
I happen to like very much what all of the above are doing, each in their own ways on their own paths, but that’s my take on life in general.
“Actively suppressing the cure for addiction?” Um, in my own humble opinion, there is NO CURE. Hmmm, could swear I’ve been through this before…there are only tools Dana. Ibogaine, as near as I can tell, if NOT a cure but for some it is a clean break from withdrawal, and for some I guess a very beautiful experience.
I met more than one person on the streets of NYC who raved at me in my junkydom about having done Ibogaine and how beautiful everything was, then saw them later back strung out. More than once, more than twice as a matter of fact. I hear and read about it all the time. Every person finds their own route, of which ibogaine CAN BE one but obviously isn’t for everyone, as near as I can tell.
I very much agree with you. While i think ibogaine therapy probably shows
greater success rates than many other forms of treatment, it would be
naive to say that it is THE treatment for EVERYONE. There simply isn’t
such a thing. For one, some people lack the enzyme needed to metabolise
it. Other people may fear the long, intense psychedelic experience; who
knows what other reasons people might have for opting for a different
therapy. But the point is that it is vital to take into account the
variability of the human experience.
Now note, this isn’t to downplay the importance of ibogaine, i think its
clearly the biggest breakthrough in addiction treatment. But we oughtn’t
get carried away and lose sight of the nature of reality, nor humanity.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 9:24:20 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>But still, you cannot justify what H.T./DPA/NORML–Hager, Nadelman, Stroup and Zeese are doing compared to Marc Emery.
THEY ARE ACTIVELY SUPPRESSING THE CURE FOR ADDICTIONS.
…while Life turns to Death for Millions of People.<
It is not my place to justify anyone’s actions, ever, but my own Dana.
I happen to like very much what all of the above are doing, each in their own ways on their own paths, but that’s my take on life in general.
“Actively suppressing the cure for addiction?” Um, in my own humble opinion, there is NO CURE. Hmmm, could swear I’ve been through this before…there are only tools Dana. Ibogaine, as near as I can tell, if NOT a cure but for some it is a clean break from withdrawal, and for some I guess a very beautiful experience.
I met more than one person on the streets of NYC who raved at me in my junkydom about having done Ibogaine and how beautiful everything was, then saw them later back strung out. More than once, more than twice as a matter of fact. I hear and read about it all the time. Every person finds their own route, of which ibogaine CAN BE one but obviously isn’t for everyone, as near as I can tell.
Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“Prohibition creates an irresistibly lucrative
opportunity for entrepreneurs willing to operate
in illicit business. It is the policy
of idealists who cannot appreciate that the use
of drugs often reflects other sets of human
ideals: human perfectibility, the yearning
for a perfect moment, the peace that comes
>from oblivion.” Richard Davenport-Hines
Well then why are they pressuring me to drop Ibogaine. And saying that Ibogaine work is incompatible with heading up the Million Marijuana March. Last year H.T. stopped giving us money, while Emery sent enough that all our contacts worldwide were still able to get their posters.
Was there an Ibogaine workshop at the DPF this year. Instead, Nadelman informed me I was banned from speaking. Zeese is doing a tour touting methadone, and only mentions Ibogaine in those rare locations where some one buttonholes him.
My point is, what happens to the individual can’t be predicted; only the mass application of ibo gives some kind of meaningful result, and that is being thwarted by the LEGALIZERS, not the gov’t (although they are also, which is to be expected).
Marc is the model that people ought to be following.
Dana/cnw
Dana/cnw
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Sacrilegious? No. Brave? Yep!
Date: November 5, 2002 at 9:12:16 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 AndriaE@aol.com wrote:
Dear Preston, everybody
U make a very important point here methinks.
And everytime i go back to the British System book i told U about, i recall
their reasoning for prescribing: we were/are thought to be people with a
albeit minor mental illness, who need drugs on script, like depressives get
SSRIs etc. I’d be interested, e.g. to know how many of us are now on prozac,
instead of methadone or H.
Make no mistake, drug addiction is by no means a minor mental illness. For
the record, i’m on two anti-depressants (remeron and effexor) and an
anti-parkinsons drug (mirapex, for a sleeping disorder). i’ll never know if my
depression would have gotten that bad had i not been a junky…
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Discussion is healthy when we tread gently – that’s all.
Date: November 5, 2002 at 7:58:03 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Curtis wrote:
Bro there are people behind the words, maybe
you don’t know anything about them. You can read about them, but
what do you know about what motivates anyone to do anything. Try
to be kind, we are all trying to survive.
Thanx for reminding us Curtis
and I still think that Preston is making a very important point. This is not a he’s-wrong- and-he’s-right-thing. This is a healthy discussion about what is happening in one families life; it brings up stuff for all of us, cos we been there, dat’s all. Preston is deeply empathic (as I’m sure many of us are) to Emery Jnr wondering around Ontario, and is trying to be practical. It’s as simple as that no?
Speaking from over 20 yrs of mainly ‘professional’ experience; most of those who did die young were in fact, one way or t’other abandoned by their signiicant others at some low, youthful or other-vulnerable point. However angry/helpless we get with clients and/or loved ones, they r doing what they know best, and need protection from the stupid ‘war.’ As it happens, sounds like the son in question knows he is cared about. He has a good chance of coming through 1 way or t’other..
BTW, in Europe, we are trying to think of a campaign slogan for the UN next year; what do y’all think of this one? “GIVE DRUG PEACE A CHANCE!”
andria x
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] respect to all
Date: November 5, 2002 at 5:12:24 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>You did just say something “if he keeps trying”, it
does change things if he doesn’t… slips/oopses/bad
ideas do however happen. 2 steps forward and 1 back –
that I can deal with, not wining/crying, give me, give
me and fuck you while you are at it..<
Chagrin here. You know, I noticed that little phrase after I clicked “send.” I guess I mean he deserves all the help he can get to kick if he keeps trying to kick.
>”IF” however isn’t at the moment but I
am with you on the concept, just might not give fire
to a pyromaniac…<
Hey, that’s a great big IF there.;-))
Anyway, I realize I’m arguing an idealistic viewpoint.
Peace all,
Preston
“Indulgence in drugs is described with
an unholy leer; it is connected lewdly
with sexual abberations; and the reprobation
with which the writers smear their nastiness
is obviously hypocrisy of the most oily and
venal type. The object is to sell the paper
by making people’s flesh creep.”
Aleister Crowley- The Great Drug Delusion, 1922
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] respect to all
…).<
>
> LOL, ok touche. I have enough trouble trying to
> picture smoking a joint with my ‘rents, (I’m also
> adopted, by ‘rents who booted me partially over said
> pot use my senior year of high school)
>
I wound up in a TC for a year because they thought I
smoked pot when I was 12. Some years later I had to
roll em for MOM cause she didn’t know how to. I
> MAYBE supplying clean dope is something to
> try. Then again, maybe not. To each their own.
No doubt overall there would be less harm. I THINK
what gets me is some sort of a line which “I” drew
from the statements Marc made, that it is severely
uncontrollable and Jr has long since been on a long
slide, that some similar attempt at help by
allowance/room/board was made – so, the saying things
don’t change till things change comes to mind – giving
him free clean dope/support doesn’t seem to change
anything/much.
>
> >From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like
> 80%+
> effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated
> use
> in patients who really want to give it up and do the
> work. <
>
> Isn’t that pretty much the norm no matter what the
> route?
Maybe, once you are ready, you are ready – I gotta say
IBO sure took the wind out of the effort BIG TIME for
this RETIRED addict and other STUFF is going on in me
that I just can’t finger any other source for. I did
BIG TIME recovery, not just the 12 step route and
still relapsed/just wasn’t right after 4 years clean.
I guess “put me over the top” would be a good way to
describe it. I am, right now content and happy pretty,
that still took a long time after I stopped using and
did a lot of work, but “this time” I am finally here.
> Not the 80 percent figure, (which I’m curious
> about anyway, having seen nothing that points to
> that at all from ibogaine use, just from hanging out
> here) but the “really wants to give up and do the
> work” part.
>
I really don’t know. Maybe I could run over to the
local club house, grab 50 addicts who say they are
ready (yeah, sure you are ready…) and dose them at
my expense and have 50 others as a control group – be
back in a couple years and let you know <g>.
> >Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you
> do
> certainly seem to have an agenda.<
>
> My agenda? End the war, end the prejudice.
> Ok, maybe I got a little hot after reading Dana’s
> note, please excuse me.
Excused. I myself felt the pull of taking sides (but
resisted because I am enlightened <g>). Nothing
against anything (well except the government,
religion, people who tell me/others what WE should do
because THEY know better…), have at it if it works
for ya.
> I was honestly only making a suggestion after
> reading that Marc’s kid was back on the streets
> doing dope again, and I could swear Marc wrote
I would LOVE to grab em off the streets, stabilize
them on an opiate under medical stupidvision (or
whatever) and then get em treated if that is what they
want. I however would NOT do that (personally) if they
wanted to keep using – in this environment, maybe in
another I would just give em free/cheap dope to keep
em out of trouble/as healthy as I could till they
changed their minds. Could also be a matter of where I
put my efforts, into someone who wanted to get clean
or someone who wanted to continue using. To me there
is a difference but yes, they are still humans and
don’t “deserve” what came about because or probition.
> something about how his son is now out of the house
> and out of contact again. That depresses me
> somewhat, and I feel for the both of them, and
> really, honestly, just want them to be the happiest,
> safest they can be. If his son truely wants off
> dope, more power to him, and he deserves all the
> help he can get, if he keeps trying.
You did just say something “if he keeps trying”, it
does change things if he doesn’t… slips/oopses/bad
ideas do however happen. 2 steps forward and 1 back –
that I can deal with, not wining/crying, give me, give
me and fuck you while you are at it… I have another
brother still out there, one day soon I will hear he
is dead, he is pretty hopeless and that is his choice.
I will be saddened, in his case though, good
clean/free dope would only mean more of it, maybe it
is good at this point it is not the case (we are
talking 40+ years on stuff), maybe at this point,
nothing is good any longer… some just will not make
it no matter what you do, could it be that the best
thing that could happen to them is a hot-shot one of
these days???
> I just happen to think some people are
> pre-disposed to using dope/etc. and the endless war
Maybe if some attempt was made to treat humanity we
wouldn’t have these kinds of problems to the extent we
do. I don’t have the answer but do know that the
methods in place are NOT WORKING (duh) and are only
making it worse. In the pre-disposed sense, sure,
absolutely people are that way and I think by far
people wouldn’t have a problem with it – some of
course would. If dope was as legal as water, people
were educated about the dangers, treatment was on
demand, everyone was honest and truthful about the
whole thing… “IF” however isn’t at the moment but I
am with you on the concept, just might not give fire
to a pyromaniac…
> on them and their use usually drives them to further
> depths of despair, above and beyond that derived the
> actual use itself. I understand that my wishes are
> not reality, and that my ideas about dope are not
> all that acceptable nowadays.
> Respect to all.
> And nope, haven’t tried ibogaine, and perhaps
> someday, when I’ve got time and a lot of money I
What “lot of money” are you talking about – there you
go again Preston <g>. Ibogaine is relatively cheap, or
were you thinking of being treated at St. Kitts? It is
the logistics that are a bitch (Jane, please, that is
only an expression and I didn’t use it for your
“benefit”) if you are just trying to figure out how to
get some. If only dope was as easy to get as ibogaine
we wouldn’t have a drug problem.
> don’t know what to do with, I’ll try it. For the
Now, if you were interested in writing an article
about your IBO experience (say for HT) I am sure
someone would donate to the “cause”.
An “initiatory” dose isn’t all that bad. You “see”
just about as much as you would “see” on a
high/anti-addictive dose.
Brett
> understanding.;-))
> Peace,
> Preston
>
>
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Brett Calabrese
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic
> question for marc emery
>
>
> > If Marc’s
> > kid insists that he wants to keep doing dope,
> THEN
> > and only then think about the idea of finding
> him a
> > safe source. REDUCE THE HARMS any way possible.
> Yes
> > indeed, here is what I wrote:
>
> Sometimes it is the harms that bring people into
> recovery (ouch that hurt so I will stop…).
> Sometimes
> the patient is unwilling to “go with the program”.
> Some people are in love (odd term for it) with the
> problem, life-style, maybe they are hell-bent on
> destroying themselves – I certainly have known
> several. Maybe he has abandonment issues he is
> getting
> even with the world over.
>
> When I was in jail, there were those folks in
> there
> who would get out and commit like 47 felonies in
> their
> first 24 hours out – to get even with the system.
>
> Point, just because you give someone all the
> things
> they need (eg, to reduce harm by giving them
> free/pure
> dope…), don’t mean they are going to reduce the
> harm
> to themselves. How many addicts (or just people)
> out
> there don’t follow the instructions on a
> prescription
> bottle??? Eg don’t mix with alcohol or don’t drive
> –
> they do it anyway. So, in Marc Jr’s case (not that
> I
> know this), it just may be an opportunity for him
> to
> take more dope. NOT THAT YOU ARE WRONG, just I
> don’t
> think every case is every case AND seems Marc did
> just
> about what you are suggesting (the “kid” was being
> fed/sheltered/given an allowance, tried meth…
> tried
> this, tried that, and now we are on the other
> thing –
> ibo).
>
> >
> > “And, as sacrilegious as it may sound, if he is
> > going to insist on remaining sprung, help him
> find a
> > relatively decent source to cop from. Reduce the
>
> I did that with my brother once, that was when it
> went
> from bad to worse. Good cheap drugs sometimes
> means
> doing more good cheap drugs and getting in deeper.
> On
> the bright side, maybe if I did’t turn him on to
> that
> source (right down the block!), it wouldn’t have
> gotten so bad and he wouldn’t have had to go into
> treatment…
>
> Funny though, I could just picture my MOM going
> out
> and trying to find a good source of dope for me
> (as in
> YOU ARE FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND – looking at it
> from
> that perspective and do not mean to insult
> you/call
> you names…).
>
> > It was not the first suggestion I made, nor is
> it a
> > suggestion I seriously expect very many people
> in
> > this day and age of prohibitionist hysteria, at
> > least on this continent, to accept, or one that
> > would be very easy to pull off. But it certainly
> > wouldn’t be impossible, especially if one has
> the
> > money to do it. What the hell is wrong with
> thinking
> > about the whole fucking picture?
>
> Who’s picture from who’s perspective?
>
> Anyway, again opiates themselves are NOT that bad
> physically, absolutely NO DOUBT than the are
> because
> of the junk in them, life-style involved,
> illegality…
>
> > Why should Marc’s
> > kid have to wait until he gets off dope, or for
> that
> > matter, does ibogaine, to deserve whatever
> > reductions in harm are possible now, even if it
> be
> > illegal heroin maintenance? (BTW, though this
> may
> > have been covered here already, is ibogaine
> legal in
> > Canada? If not….)
>
> Yes, ibogaine is legal in Canada and what do you
> mean
> by “if not…..”? And to answer your question –
> SURE,
> Marc JR and every addict/human/dog/cat deserves
> whatever reductions in harm that are possible –
> that
> does NOT however translate to reducing the harm to
> Marc Jr (in 1:1) if you gave him what you suggest.
> Also, it just isn’t that way at the moment, I
> can’t
> run down to the corner drug store and get pure H
> for
> free and have someone pay my bills while I shoot
> up
> all day TILL (maybe) one day I decide to stop.
> Maybe
> if that was offered to me, I would take up
> shooting up
> dope – ever think of that (since you are on some
> rather odd what if’s)
>
> > That’s cold for some to expect
> > and demand, which is what I got from Dana’s
> > response, though I suppose I could be putting
> words
> > into his mouth now. As “great” as ibogaine can
> be
> > for some in stopping withdrawal symptoms, once
> again
> > by this incident with Marc’s son we see that
> > ibogaine is not a cure for anything, but merely
> one
> > more tool amongst hundreds probably. Yeah, it
> might
> > work great at cutting withdrawals, but hey, if
> > someone thinks there’s a handy way, (through
> three
>
> What 3 days tripping are you talking about? I have
> NEVER had that experience with ibogaine. I was
> rocked
> for 3 days, oozy and stuff but “tripping” myself
> never
> more than 12 hours on high doses.
>
> Have you ever done ibo, if not, might do you good
> – I
> mean might help you understand it a little better
> <g>.
>
> > days of tripping granted, which can’t really be
> so
> > bad now can it considering the number of people
> on
> > this list who rave about it) to take their dope
> then
> > kick without kicking, why quit permanently? And
>
> That thought I am sure has crossed some peoples
> minds.
> No doubt with ANY detox method, addicts do it to
> clean-up, reduce their need so they can just start
> all
> over again (or whatever reason, they are going to
> Court, need to piss clean for a new job…). I do
> know
> someone who does pretty much what you suggest, so?
> That does not mean everyone or a majority of
> people do
> it, what you are saying is called “splitting
> hairs”.
>
> > considering the number of people I have now
> heard of
> > who tried ibogaine then went back to using more
> than
> > once, doesn’t anyone suspect that this might be
> > something to think about? Or is that too
>
> In what respect should one think about it? It does
> kind of sound like you are “spreading doubt”
> rather
> than saying, “sure the stuff works but it isn’t a
> one
> shot deal most of the time” (cept for detox AND
> often
> a head start) – Soooo, think about that.
>
> > sacrilegious to think about and against the
> party
> > line, that not all people find themselves with
> > brains completely reset and lacking the desire
> to
> > use after ibogaine dosing, even sometimes
> > repeatedly, no matter how fresh and clear they
> are
> > after their ibogaine experiences?
>
> And so what? What is your point? NO, it doesn’t
> work
> for everyone, of course nothing does and IBOGAINE
> is
> far better than anything else out there – unless
> of
> course you disagree.
>
> From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like
> 80%+
> effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated
> use
> in patients who really want to give it up and do
> the
> work. Because of some “use” you could re-calculate
> that another way, it will reduce drug use by 80+%.
> Some people consider me still to be a “user”,
> after
> all I still take mind altering drugs (pain meds)
> on
> occasion. Even in patients who are not really into
> giving up drugs, it does still seem to work well
> as a
> detox and you still get 20% long term recovery
> rates
> in a single dose.
>
> Tell me anything that comes close to those
> numbers?
>
> Preston, I hear what you are saying but think you
> are
> saying it a bit too loudly and applying it a bit
> too
> broadly – from my perspective. ABSO-FUKEN-LUTELY,
> harm
> will be reduced if the Drug War/probition was
> ended
> and people could get good/clean, cheap dope – of
> that
> I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that some
> people
> will very readily kill themselves with good/clean,
> cheap (or free) dope and there will be no reduced
> harm
> – to them, just MORE GOOD/CLEAN/CHEAP/FREE/DOPE
> and
> being supported till they die.
>
> Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you
> do
> certainly seem to have an agenda.
>
> Brett
>
> > Sheeze.
> > End the War, harm reduction rules.
> > Peace,
> > Preston
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: Brett Calabrese
> > To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the
> idiotic
> > question for marc emery EDITING
> >
> >
> >
> > — Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Preston,
> >
> > My take on it is if you gave Marc Jr all the
> dope
> > (clean/free and supported him) he wanted, he
> would
> > basically do nothing but lie there shooting
> the
> > stuff till he died. Another addict may become
> > “functional”, just as many do on methadone –
> and
> > many don’t…
> >
> > Sure, good clean/free dope and someone
> supporting
> > your
> > habit will certainly stop many of the ills
> > associated
> > with opiate addiction – over all. Unfortunatly
> > this is
> > not how it is and all but impossible to do in
> the
> > current environment – it also will simply not
> work
> > for
> > everyone.
> >
> > Any treatment has its place, be it MM, the 12
> > steps,
> > smoking pot/using softer drugs instead,
> ibogaine,
> > throw their asses in Jail and teach em a
> lesson,
> > JESES
> > LOVES YOU/yes he does, methadone or whatever.
> Any
> > of
> > those will work for some, none of them will
> work
> > for
> > all. It is IMO an error on our part to use our
> pet
> > brand of treatment (or whatever) as “the”
> answer,
> > addicts simply not respond the same way. Just
> as
> > it is
> > the WRONG method to satisfy all computing
> needs
> > using
> > MicroSoft products – it does not fit the needs
> of
> > all
> > clients – contrary to what many salesmen would
> > like
> > you to believe (and I am sure INTEL would be
> more
> > than
> > happy to go along with that since I can do 100
> > times
> > as much on a RISC processor running UNIX as I
> can
> > do
> > on a WIN-TEL box – so ya need more of em, just
> > like we
> > need more Jails to treat addicts, same
> difference,
> > neither solves the problem…). Sorry,, kind
> of a
> > techie thing Patrick would get for sure.
> >
> > I was addicted to morphine (for pain). I got
> my
> > script
> > once a month (or longer, I forgot), took my
> 120mgs
> > a
> > day and was miserable on it – even after
> months to
> > get
> > “use” to it. So much for cheap clean dope
> being my
> > answer (it didn’t work with the oxycodone or
> > Dilaudid
> > either, or the pot OR NA/AA or jail or 7
> treatment
> > centers, or…). Ibogaine worked for me if
> > anything
> > one thing did. It won’t work for all either
> EXCEPT
> > it
> > is in a class all its own as a detox agent and
> > slightly lagging behind that, removes
> > cravings/resets
> > a bunch of stuff – not that that stops an
> addict
> > from
> > getting high if they are bored on a Saturday
> > afternoon…
> >
> > Brett
> > >
> > >
> >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
> > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] not my place to justify
Date: November 5, 2002 at 4:44:54 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>But still, you cannot justify what H.T./DPA/NORML–Hager, Nadelman, Stroup and Zeese are doing compared to Marc Emery.
THEY ARE ACTIVELY SUPPRESSING THE CURE FOR ADDICTIONS.
…while Life turns to Death for Millions of People.<
It is not my place to justify anyone’s actions, ever, but my own Dana.
I happen to like very much what all of the above are doing, each in their own ways on their own paths, but that’s my take on life in general.
“Actively suppressing the cure for addiction?” Um, in my own humble opinion, there is NO CURE. Hmmm, could swear I’ve been through this before…there are only tools Dana. Ibogaine, as near as I can tell, if NOT a cure but for some it is a clean break from withdrawal, and for some I guess a very beautiful experience.
I met more than one person on the streets of NYC who raved at me in my junkydom about having done Ibogaine and how beautiful everything was, then saw them later back strung out. More than once, more than twice as a matter of fact. I hear and read about it all the time. Every person finds their own route, of which ibogaine CAN BE one but obviously isn’t for everyone, as near as I can tell.
Peace,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“Prohibition creates an irresistibly lucrative
opportunity for entrepreneurs willing to operate
in illicit business. It is the policy
of idealists who cannot appreciate that the use
of drugs often reflects other sets of human
ideals: human perfectibility, the yearning
for a perfect moment, the peace that comes
from oblivion.” Richard Davenport-Hines
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 5, 2002 at 12:19:43 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
That’s because Patrick is a decent person 🙂
Or he’s just very busy. I think he reads this list every week or two
probably when someone on it calls him up and tells him he has to reply
to something. Which is still a lot faster then his turnaround on email.
I’m averaging 3 months there. If I’m lucky.
I think they really are trying to reopen before GNR goes on tour. Which
gives them 3 days. Or years 🙂 The beta just went up and down about 10
times in the last two days and it’s gone from 4 or 5 test forums to
about 500, Mindvox is reloading for the first time in 5 years 🙂
.:vector:.
— Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com> wrote:
You know Brendan, this isn’t only for you but just a
thought. Reading some of the other Mindvox lists I am
getting the idea that acting like complete dickheads
is normal in the hacker subculture because all of you
treat each other like little kids throwing tantrums on
the playground.
Out of all of the people you like to throw shit at,
I’ve never seen Patrick even reply to most of you.
I’ve never seen him bother anyone, I’ve never seen him
write anything that vents against any specific person.
He goes off on concepts and situations, not some list
of names he hates. I’ve never seen Bruce do that
either. I’ve never seen Preston do that. Mostly I see
all of them doing something positive instead of being
obnoxious and annoying.
When there is this group of people who keep attacking
persons who never even reply to them, who spend their
time sharing what they learned in psych 201 this week
like Curtis mentioned 😉 and don’t contribute
anything at all which looks like it helps anyone. Then
I wonder why they bother.
Then I remember that it’s the internet and this is
actually one of the higher content and more
interesting lists I read 🙂
If they stopped getting caught, then good for them.
They did learn something! 🙂
Carla B
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] why I quit doing dope?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 11:16:34 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>I never heard of anybody named Preston while your life revolved around heroin. <
LOL, while my life revolved around ILLEGAL heroin you mean.;-))
>If both of you think heroin was so great, then tell me why you made such extreme effort to finally get it out of your life. <
;-)) Because I got sick of being on the streets trying to score bad dope, hiding from cops, having a desperate need that was just too freakin hard to fulfill each and every day under prohibition policies. And, I don’t think heroin is really “so great” just that it is wrong to make it illegal thereby creating cartels and bad dope and evil people who are willing to buck the law and make a ton of money of of stuff that was once as cheap as Bayer Aspirin, and funny enough was even made by Bayer for a while, and caused about as much trouble for society. ( I mean, there’s a few other forms of opiates too remember, that are not necessarily the superstrong alkoloid that is heroin.) The real problems with heroin/opiates seem to have begun AFTER drug prohibition began, if my reading of history is correct.
>Compare hard and soft drugs however you want, throw out any fantasy of free heroin and legal access, heroin destroys lives. Neither one of you was among the living while you were junkies, no matter which way you want to add it back up or sell it to yourself.<
Sure I was, in some ways even more alive then I am today, just in different ways. I was certainly too busy then trying to fill my need with expensive yet bad prohibition-inflated priced dope, and dodging asshole cops to get around to publishing what I was writing even then, constantly. ILLEGAL heroin destroys lives, in my own opinion. Haven’t yet heard of any legal heroin except in certain trials in places like Switzerland, as I think Joshua pointed out recently, where by supplying legal dope, crime, illness and more have been drastically cut in their junky population. Gee. Sorta like with some who goes the fake heroin, i.e. methadone route. Like I did.
Seems simple, if wishful thinking on my part.
Peace,
Preston
But still, you cannot justify what H.T./DPA/NORML–Hager, Nadelman, Stroup and Zeese are doing compared to Marc Emery.
THEY ARE ACTIVELY SUPPRESSING THE CURE FOR ADDICTIONS.
…while Life turns to Death for Millions of People.
Dana/cnw
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] respect to all
Date: November 4, 2002 at 10:51:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
…).<
LOL, ok touche. I have enough trouble trying to
picture smoking a joint with my ‘rents, (I’m also
adopted, by ‘rents who booted me partially over said
pot use my senior year of high school)
I wound up in a TC for a year because they thought I
smoked pot when I was 12. Some years later I had to
roll em for MOM cause she didn’t know how to. I
MAYBE supplying clean dope is something to
try. Then again, maybe not. To each their own.
No doubt overall there would be less harm. I THINK
what gets me is some sort of a line which “I” drew
from the statements Marc made, that it is severely
uncontrollable and Jr has long since been on a long
slide, that some similar attempt at help by
allowance/room/board was made – so, the saying things
don’t change till things change comes to mind – giving
him free clean dope/support doesn’t seem to change
anything/much.
From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like
80%+
effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated
use
in patients who really want to give it up and do the
work. <
Isn’t that pretty much the norm no matter what the
route?
Maybe, once you are ready, you are ready – I gotta say
IBO sure took the wind out of the effort BIG TIME for
this RETIRED addict and other STUFF is going on in me
that I just can’t finger any other source for. I did
BIG TIME recovery, not just the 12 step route and
still relapsed/just wasn’t right after 4 years clean.
I guess “put me over the top” would be a good way to
describe it. I am, right now content and happy pretty,
that still took a long time after I stopped using and
did a lot of work, but “this time” I am finally here.
Not the 80 percent figure, (which I’m curious
about anyway, having seen nothing that points to
that at all from ibogaine use, just from hanging out
here) but the “really wants to give up and do the
work” part.
I really don’t know. Maybe I could run over to the
local club house, grab 50 addicts who say they are
ready (yeah, sure you are ready…) and dose them at
my expense and have 50 others as a control group – be
back in a couple years and let you know <g>.
Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you
do
certainly seem to have an agenda.<
My agenda? End the war, end the prejudice.
Ok, maybe I got a little hot after reading Dana’s
note, please excuse me.
Excused. I myself felt the pull of taking sides (but
resisted because I am enlightened <g>). Nothing
against anything (well except the government,
religion, people who tell me/others what WE should do
because THEY know better…), have at it if it works
for ya.
I was honestly only making a suggestion after
reading that Marc’s kid was back on the streets
doing dope again, and I could swear Marc wrote
I would LOVE to grab em off the streets, stabilize
them on an opiate under medical stupidvision (or
whatever) and then get em treated if that is what they
want. I however would NOT do that (personally) if they
wanted to keep using – in this environment, maybe in
another I would just give em free/cheap dope to keep
em out of trouble/as healthy as I could till they
changed their minds. Could also be a matter of where I
put my efforts, into someone who wanted to get clean
or someone who wanted to continue using. To me there
is a difference but yes, they are still humans and
don’t “deserve” what came about because or probition.
something about how his son is now out of the house
and out of contact again. That depresses me
somewhat, and I feel for the both of them, and
really, honestly, just want them to be the happiest,
safest they can be. If his son truely wants off
dope, more power to him, and he deserves all the
help he can get, if he keeps trying.
You did just say something “if he keeps trying”, it
does change things if he doesn’t… slips/oopses/bad
ideas do however happen. 2 steps forward and 1 back –
that I can deal with, not wining/crying, give me, give
me and fuck you while you are at it… I have another
brother still out there, one day soon I will hear he
is dead, he is pretty hopeless and that is his choice.
I will be saddened, in his case though, good
clean/free dope would only mean more of it, maybe it
is good at this point it is not the case (we are
talking 40+ years on stuff), maybe at this point,
nothing is good any longer… some just will not make
it no matter what you do, could it be that the best
thing that could happen to them is a hot-shot one of
these days???
I just happen to think some people are
pre-disposed to using dope/etc. and the endless war
Maybe if some attempt was made to treat humanity we
wouldn’t have these kinds of problems to the extent we
do. I don’t have the answer but do know that the
methods in place are NOT WORKING (duh) and are only
making it worse. In the pre-disposed sense, sure,
absolutely people are that way and I think by far
people wouldn’t have a problem with it – some of
course would. If dope was as legal as water, people
were educated about the dangers, treatment was on
demand, everyone was honest and truthful about the
whole thing… “IF” however isn’t at the moment but I
am with you on the concept, just might not give fire
to a pyromaniac…
on them and their use usually drives them to further
depths of despair, above and beyond that derived the
actual use itself. I understand that my wishes are
not reality, and that my ideas about dope are not
all that acceptable nowadays.
Respect to all.
And nope, haven’t tried ibogaine, and perhaps
someday, when I’ve got time and a lot of money I
What “lot of money” are you talking about – there you
go again Preston <g>. Ibogaine is relatively cheap, or
were you thinking of being treated at St. Kitts? It is
the logistics that are a bitch (Jane, please, that is
only an expression and I didn’t use it for your
“benefit”) if you are just trying to figure out how to
get some. If only dope was as easy to get as ibogaine
we wouldn’t have a drug problem.
don’t know what to do with, I’ll try it. For the
Now, if you were interested in writing an article
about your IBO experience (say for HT) I am sure
someone would donate to the “cause”.
An “initiatory” dose isn’t all that bad. You “see”
just about as much as you would “see” on a
high/anti-addictive dose.
Brett
understanding.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic
question for marc emery
If Marc’s
kid insists that he wants to keep doing dope,
THEN
and only then think about the idea of finding
him a
safe source. REDUCE THE HARMS any way possible.
Yes
indeed, here is what I wrote:
Sometimes it is the harms that bring people into
recovery (ouch that hurt so I will stop…).
Sometimes
the patient is unwilling to “go with the program”.
Some people are in love (odd term for it) with the
problem, life-style, maybe they are hell-bent on
destroying themselves – I certainly have known
several. Maybe he has abandonment issues he is
getting
even with the world over.
When I was in jail, there were those folks in
there
who would get out and commit like 47 felonies in
their
first 24 hours out – to get even with the system.
Point, just because you give someone all the
things
they need (eg, to reduce harm by giving them
free/pure
dope…), don’t mean they are going to reduce the
harm
to themselves. How many addicts (or just people)
out
there don’t follow the instructions on a
prescription
bottle??? Eg don’t mix with alcohol or don’t drive
–
they do it anyway. So, in Marc Jr’s case (not that
I
know this), it just may be an opportunity for him
to
take more dope. NOT THAT YOU ARE WRONG, just I
don’t
think every case is every case AND seems Marc did
just
about what you are suggesting (the “kid” was being
fed/sheltered/given an allowance, tried meth…
tried
this, tried that, and now we are on the other
thing –
ibo).
“And, as sacrilegious as it may sound, if he is
going to insist on remaining sprung, help him
find a
relatively decent source to cop from. Reduce the
I did that with my brother once, that was when it
went
from bad to worse. Good cheap drugs sometimes
means
doing more good cheap drugs and getting in deeper.
On
the bright side, maybe if I did’t turn him on to
that
source (right down the block!), it wouldn’t have
gotten so bad and he wouldn’t have had to go into
treatment…
Funny though, I could just picture my MOM going
out
and trying to find a good source of dope for me
(as in
YOU ARE FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND – looking at it
from
that perspective and do not mean to insult
you/call
you names…).
It was not the first suggestion I made, nor is
it a
suggestion I seriously expect very many people
in
this day and age of prohibitionist hysteria, at
least on this continent, to accept, or one that
would be very easy to pull off. But it certainly
wouldn’t be impossible, especially if one has
the
money to do it. What the hell is wrong with
thinking
about the whole fucking picture?
Who’s picture from who’s perspective?
Anyway, again opiates themselves are NOT that bad
physically, absolutely NO DOUBT than the are
because
of the junk in them, life-style involved,
illegality…
Why should Marc’s
kid have to wait until he gets off dope, or for
that
matter, does ibogaine, to deserve whatever
reductions in harm are possible now, even if it
be
illegal heroin maintenance? (BTW, though this
may
have been covered here already, is ibogaine
legal in
Canada? If not….)
Yes, ibogaine is legal in Canada and what do you
mean
by “if not…..”? And to answer your question –
SURE,
Marc JR and every addict/human/dog/cat deserves
whatever reductions in harm that are possible –
that
does NOT however translate to reducing the harm to
Marc Jr (in 1:1) if you gave him what you suggest.
Also, it just isn’t that way at the moment, I
can’t
run down to the corner drug store and get pure H
for
free and have someone pay my bills while I shoot
up
all day TILL (maybe) one day I decide to stop.
Maybe
if that was offered to me, I would take up
shooting up
dope – ever think of that (since you are on some
rather odd what if’s)
That’s cold for some to expect
and demand, which is what I got from Dana’s
response, though I suppose I could be putting
words
into his mouth now. As “great” as ibogaine can
be
for some in stopping withdrawal symptoms, once
again
by this incident with Marc’s son we see that
ibogaine is not a cure for anything, but merely
one
more tool amongst hundreds probably. Yeah, it
might
work great at cutting withdrawals, but hey, if
someone thinks there’s a handy way, (through
three
What 3 days tripping are you talking about? I have
NEVER had that experience with ibogaine. I was
rocked
for 3 days, oozy and stuff but “tripping” myself
never
more than 12 hours on high doses.
Have you ever done ibo, if not, might do you good
– I
mean might help you understand it a little better
<g>.
days of tripping granted, which can’t really be
so
bad now can it considering the number of people
on
this list who rave about it) to take their dope
then
kick without kicking, why quit permanently? And
That thought I am sure has crossed some peoples
minds.
No doubt with ANY detox method, addicts do it to
clean-up, reduce their need so they can just start
all
over again (or whatever reason, they are going to
Court, need to piss clean for a new job…). I do
know
someone who does pretty much what you suggest, so?
That does not mean everyone or a majority of
people do
it, what you are saying is called “splitting
hairs”.
considering the number of people I have now
heard of
who tried ibogaine then went back to using more
than
once, doesn’t anyone suspect that this might be
something to think about? Or is that too
In what respect should one think about it? It does
kind of sound like you are “spreading doubt”
rather
than saying, “sure the stuff works but it isn’t a
one
shot deal most of the time” (cept for detox AND
often
a head start) – Soooo, think about that.
sacrilegious to think about and against the
party
line, that not all people find themselves with
brains completely reset and lacking the desire
to
use after ibogaine dosing, even sometimes
repeatedly, no matter how fresh and clear they
are
after their ibogaine experiences?
And so what? What is your point? NO, it doesn’t
work
for everyone, of course nothing does and IBOGAINE
is
far better than anything else out there – unless
of
course you disagree.
From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like
80%+
effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated
use
in patients who really want to give it up and do
the
work. Because of some “use” you could re-calculate
that another way, it will reduce drug use by 80+%.
Some people consider me still to be a “user”,
after
all I still take mind altering drugs (pain meds)
on
occasion. Even in patients who are not really into
giving up drugs, it does still seem to work well
as a
detox and you still get 20% long term recovery
rates
in a single dose.
Tell me anything that comes close to those
numbers?
Preston, I hear what you are saying but think you
are
saying it a bit too loudly and applying it a bit
too
broadly – from my perspective. ABSO-FUKEN-LUTELY,
harm
will be reduced if the Drug War/probition was
ended
and people could get good/clean, cheap dope – of
that
I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that some
people
will very readily kill themselves with good/clean,
cheap (or free) dope and there will be no reduced
harm
– to them, just MORE GOOD/CLEAN/CHEAP/FREE/DOPE
and
being supported till they die.
Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you
do
certainly seem to have an agenda.
Brett
Sheeze.
End the War, harm reduction rules.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the
idiotic
question for marc emery EDITING
— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Preston,
My take on it is if you gave Marc Jr all the
dope
(clean/free and supported him) he wanted, he
would
basically do nothing but lie there shooting
the
stuff till he died. Another addict may become
“functional”, just as many do on methadone –
and
many don’t…
Sure, good clean/free dope and someone
supporting
your
habit will certainly stop many of the ills
associated
with opiate addiction – over all. Unfortunatly
this is
not how it is and all but impossible to do in
the
current environment – it also will simply not
work
for
everyone.
Any treatment has its place, be it MM, the 12
steps,
smoking pot/using softer drugs instead,
ibogaine,
throw their asses in Jail and teach em a
lesson,
JESES
LOVES YOU/yes he does, methadone or whatever.
Any
of
those will work for some, none of them will
work
for
all. It is IMO an error on our part to use our
pet
brand of treatment (or whatever) as “the”
answer,
addicts simply not respond the same way. Just
as
it is
the WRONG method to satisfy all computing
needs
using
MicroSoft products – it does not fit the needs
of
all
clients – contrary to what many salesmen would
like
you to believe (and I am sure INTEL would be
more
than
happy to go along with that since I can do 100
times
as much on a RISC processor running UNIX as I
can
do
on a WIN-TEL box – so ya need more of em, just
like we
need more Jails to treat addicts, same
difference,
neither solves the problem…). Sorry,, kind
of a
techie thing Patrick would get for sure.
I was addicted to morphine (for pain). I got
my
script
once a month (or longer, I forgot), took my
120mgs
a
day and was miserable on it – even after
months to
get
“use” to it. So much for cheap clean dope
being my
answer (it didn’t work with the oxycodone or
Dilaudid
either, or the pot OR NA/AA or jail or 7
treatment
centers, or…). Ibogaine worked for me if
anything
one thing did. It won’t work for all either
EXCEPT
it
is in a class all its own as a detox agent and
slightly lagging behind that, removes
cravings/resets
a bunch of stuff – not that that stops an
addict
from
getting high if they are bored on a Saturday
afternoon…
Brett
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From: Carla Barnes <carlambarnes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 10:17:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You know Brendan, this isn’t only for you but just a
thought. Reading some of the other Mindvox lists I am
getting the idea that acting like complete dickheads
is normal in the hacker subculture because all of you
treat each other like little kids throwing tantrums on
the playground.
Out of all of the people you like to throw shit at,
I’ve never seen Patrick even reply to most of you.
I’ve never seen him bother anyone, I’ve never seen him
write anything that vents against any specific person.
He goes off on concepts and situations, not some list
of names he hates. I’ve never seen Bruce do that
either. I’ve never seen Preston do that. Mostly I see
all of them doing something positive instead of being
obnoxious and annoying.
When there is this group of people who keep attacking
persons who never even reply to them, who spend their
time sharing what they learned in psych 201 this week
like Curtis mentioned 😉 and don’t contribute
anything at all which looks like it helps anyone. Then
I wonder why they bother.
Then I remember that it’s the internet and this is
actually one of the higher content and more
interesting lists I read 🙂
If they stopped getting caught, then good for them.
They did learn something! 🙂
Carla B
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
I’m very sorry bro. I didn’t mean to harsh up your
head bro. And most of this is on the vox and fd
lists bro. I didn’t post this as any big part of my
message bro and why don’t you take your
motherlovebone sandal wearing granola eating hippie
self out of pointing it all at me bro because if
they are all so sorry about that shit then why do
they dump it into their media kit bro. Kenkappel is
run by Bruce Fancher bro. Mindvox used to publish
scans of all their subpeonas bro. Ken Kappel is
still this weird site filled with some Kennedy
conspiracy writer’s problems with suing Mindvox bro.
In there is some interesting reading bro. Charges
that Mindvox is intercepting phone calls, accessing
non public databases, changing credit reports, it
goes on bro. And it is 1997 bro. Not 1987. None of
them ever stopped any of it bro. They just stopped
getting caught.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] glamorizing heroin? What are you talking about?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 9:24:10 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>I posted a message about glamorizing heroin bro and that was half a sentence in my msg bro.<
Now who in the heck “glamorized” heroin here, “bro”?
I can’t remember ever seeing that notion come through here, but I could be mistaken.
I like both magazines too btw.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: brendan22@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
I’m very sorry bro. I didn’t mean to harsh up your head bro. And most of this is on the vox and fd lists bro. I didn’t post this as any big part of my message bro and why don’t you take your motherlovebone sandal wearing granola eating hippie self out of pointing it all at me bro because if they are all so sorry about that shit then why do they dump it into their media kit bro. Kenkappel is run by Bruce Fancher bro. Mindvox used to publish scans of all their subpeonas bro. Ken Kappel is still this weird site filled with some Kennedy conspiracy writer’s problems with suing Mindvox bro. In there is some interesting reading bro. Charges that Mindvox is intercepting phone calls, accessing non public databases, changing credit reports, it goes on bro. And it is 1997 bro. Not 1987. None of them ever stopped any of it bro. They just stopped getting caught.
Maybe Patrick has done enough entheogens to stop being a sociopath but they still rate way up there on the antisocial scale bro.
And none of this belongs on the ibogaine list bro. And you know what bro, I didn’t put it there bro. I posted a message about glamorizing heroin bro and that was half a sentence in my msg bro.
And the only reason you always stick up for Ascending bro, is because he is your ibogaine dealer bro. So shut the fuck up bro.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 15:26:48 -0800 Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
>I like High Times and Cannabis Culture both. Can we please all try
>
>to be decent to each other?
>
>If a lot of LOD members became drug addicts, maybe it is because
>
>having the FBI and secret service try to throw you in prison is
>
>very stressful.
>
>I don’t know many happy junkies. None really. I know some
>functional ones. I was one for a long time too. I know a lot of
>
>happy potheads. I think this is a very harsh time for Marc with
>
>his son out there and asking him to see the big picture by saying
>
>he should give his son heroin is not the best thing to say.
>
>I think everything should be legalised too. But please, let’s not
>
>always turn everything into a argument and then start pointing it
>
>at individual people. Bro there are people behind the words, maybe
>
>you don’t know anything about them. You can read about them, but
>
>what do you know about what motivates anyone to do anything. Try
>
>to be kind, we are all trying to survive.
>
>And if you want to drag out the hacker past, then why not take it
>
>to the vox or full disclosure list, where everyone there is taking
>
>part of that scene. It must be very harsh to keep having people
>
>who do not know you, read things somewhere and then come at you
>
>with whatever it says you did 10 years ago.
>
>Peace out,
>Curtis
>
>On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :
>>
>>Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the
>
>>Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who
>
>>defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing
>
>>about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into
>>their own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were
>
>>but some cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to
>>prison. The Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have
>
>>been civil litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many
>in
>>Legion of Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has
>
>>spent half its life behind bars.
>>
>>I don’t think any drug related distribution charges were ever
>>brought against anyone from LOD but it certainly produced a lot
>
>>of drug addicts. It also produced at least 3 millionaries, maybe
>
>>more since so many people from it are MIA or changed identities
>
>>and vanished somewhere.
>>
>>On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:21:54 -0800 brendan22@hushmail.com
>>wrote:
>>
>> >Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You
>
>>have
>> >a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re
>
>>written
>> >into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know
>>technology,
>> > you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the
>>shit
>> >dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off
>
>>for
>> >a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s
>
>>lawyers
>> >from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your
>>lawsuits,
>> >you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the
>>FBI,
>> >all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just
>
>>went
>> >black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in
>
>>the
>> >head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you
>
>>out,
>> > you did it yourselves.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
>>
>>
>
>__________________________________________________________
>Give your Company an email address like
>ravi @ ravi-exports.com. Sign up for Rediffmail Pro today!
>Know more. http://www.rediffmailpro.com/signup/
>
>
>
>
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 9:20:01 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>I think this is a very harsh time for Marc with
his son out there and asking him to see the big picture by saying
he should give his son heroin is not the best thing to say.<
Jiminy Cricket, is no one reading what I originally wrote? Let me try ONE MORE TIME-
“And, as sacrilegious as it may sound, if he is going to insist on remaining sprung, help him find a relatively decent source to cop from. Reduce the harms, but do not cut him out of your life. If he can get decent, clean, un-poisoned heroin, that’s better than poisoned dope that is often out on the streets. Heroin itself isn’t really all that physically bad for a person, other than for that pesky NEED, so better to help keep him as safe as possible while using, in my own humble opinion.”
If HE is going to insist on remaining sprung. It’s his choice, but one way to cut down on SOME of the associated harms would be to insure he wasn’t buying street poisons. I don’t believe I ever wrote anyone SHOULD be given heroin, only that supplying it MIGHT lessen the damages that MIGHT accrue from a continued dope habit. The most important part of that paragraph was “DON’T cut him out of your life.”
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
I like High Times and Cannabis Culture both. Can we please all try
to be decent to each other?
If a lot of LOD members became drug addicts, maybe it is because
having the FBI and secret service try to throw you in prison is
very stressful.
I don’t know many happy junkies. None really. I know some
functional ones. I was one for a long time too. I know a lot of
happy potheads. I think this is a very harsh time for Marc with
his son out there and asking him to see the big picture by saying
he should give his son heroin is not the best thing to say.
I think everything should be legalised too. But please, let’s not
always turn everything into a argument and then start pointing it
at individual people. Bro there are people behind the words, maybe
you don’t know anything about them. You can read about them, but
what do you know about what motivates anyone to do anything. Try
to be kind, we are all trying to survive.
And if you want to drag out the hacker past, then why not take it
to the vox or full disclosure list, where everyone there is taking
part of that scene. It must be very harsh to keep having people
who do not know you, read things somewhere and then come at you
with whatever it says you did 10 years ago.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :
>
>Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the
>Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who
>defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing
>about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into
>their own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were
>but some cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to
>prison. The Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have
>been civil litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many in
>Legion of Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has
>spent half its life behind bars.
>
>I don’t think any drug related distribution charges were ever
>brought against anyone >from LOD but it certainly produced a lot
>of drug addicts. It also produced at least 3 millionaries, maybe
>more since so many people from it are MIA or changed identities
>and vanished somewhere.
>
>On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:21:54 -0800 brendan22@hushmail.com
>wrote:
>
> >Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You
>have
> >a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re
>written
> >into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know
>technology,
> > you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the
>shit
> >dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off
>for
> >a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s
>lawyers
> >from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your
>lawsuits,
> >you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the
>FBI,
> >all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just
>went
> >black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in
>the
> >head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you
>out,
> > you did it yourselves.
>
>
>
>
>Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
>
>
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] why I quit doing dope?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 9:12:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>I never heard of anybody named Preston while your life revolved around heroin. <
LOL, while my life revolved around ILLEGAL heroin you mean.;-))
>If both of you think heroin was so great, then tell me why you made such extreme effort to finally get it out of your life. <
;-)) Because I got sick of being on the streets trying to score bad dope, hiding from cops, having a desperate need that was just too freakin hard to fulfill each and every day under prohibition policies. And, I don’t think heroin is really “so great” just that it is wrong to make it illegal thereby creating cartels and bad dope and evil people who are willing to buck the law and make a ton of money of of stuff that was once as cheap as Bayer Aspirin, and funny enough was even made by Bayer for a while, and caused about as much trouble for society. ( I mean, there’s a few other forms of opiates too remember, that are not necessarily the superstrong alkoloid that is heroin.) The real problems with heroin/opiates seem to have begun AFTER drug prohibition began, if my reading of history is correct.
>Compare hard and soft drugs however you want, throw out any fantasy of free heroin and legal access, heroin destroys lives. Neither one of you was among the living while you were junkies, no matter which way you want to add it back up or sell it to yourself.<
Sure I was, in some ways even more alive then I am today, just in different ways. I was certainly too busy then trying to fill my need with expensive yet bad prohibition-inflated priced dope, and dodging asshole cops to get around to publishing what I was writing even then, constantly. ILLEGAL heroin destroys lives, in my own opinion. Haven’t yet heard of any legal heroin except in certain trials in places like Switzerland, as I think Joshua pointed out recently, where by supplying legal dope, crime, illness and more have been drastically cut in their junky population. Gee. Sorta like with some who goes the fake heroin, i.e. methadone route. Like I did.
Seems simple, if wishful thinking on my part.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: brendan22@hushmail.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
I do dump here a lot of the time and don’t spend my life taking any of what’s written here to heart but just to toss in my opinon without anger or cynicism.
I don’t have any interest in the battle of the stoner mags that Dana started up here.
My question or not even question but comment is for Preston and Patrick, who are two people who always defend legalizing everything and leaving people alone.
Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You have a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re written into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know technology, you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the shit dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off for a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s lawyers from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your lawsuits, you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the FBI, all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just went black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in the head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you out, you did it yourselves.
You’ve risen from the dead, but. Have you ever thought what you might have been if you hadn’t spent half your life strung out? I’m not sure what that means, but I’m very sure both of you would be worth at least 200, 300 million. You’ve done a lot of damage. And towards the end there all that happened with Patrick on heroin was complete silence because you were too busy dealing drugs, ripping off companies, being a full time junkie to do anything else.
And your writing. You write a lot about heroin. To give you credit you write honestly. You know what I see a lot of there. Pain.
Preston. I don’t know as much about your life but I’d say exactly the same. Was it so great being a homeless person living on the streets and sleeping in the park? You are a great writer, you are prolific, you do drugwar, you write for High Times, you represent, you care about people and issues.
I never heard of anybody named Preston while your life revolved around heroin.
If both of you think heroin was so great, then tell me why you made such extreme effort to finally get it out of your life.
I don’t see pot doing that to anybody.
Compare hard and soft drugs however you want, throw out any fantasy of free heroin and legal access, heroin destroys lives. Neither one of you was among the living while you were junkies, no matter which way you want to add it back up or sell it to yourself.
The two of you and I’ll add a third bud of yours, Francis Moraes PHD, from Heroin Helper, who is another one of the brilliant junkie crew. What was he doing while he was on the love of his life. He was sitting in prison a lot. Now all he does is write live, breathe, eat, sleep, write about heroin. But he’s not doing any heroin either. See the pattern? I can’t miss it.
If all of you think it was so great, then why aren’t you still doing it.
That was my thoughtful response. Here’s the shorter one I’d usually post: bullshit.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:35:46 -0800 Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
>>Ouch.
>> Ok. I’m discussing this with my girlfriend, who points out
>
>>rather lucidly that while I was on dope full time, (before we were
>a
>>couple), she felt like she had to babysit me when hanging out with
>
>>me. That can be rough, and she got tired of watching me screw myself
>
>>over and over, (but I was also doing speedballs, not just dope).
>As
>>I wrote before, was he doing anything other than getting high,
>or
>>methadone at least, for those 2 years?
>> Methadone worked for me, but obviously doesn’t work for anyone.
>
>>It does seem to have ruined my teeth though.
>> The trouble I find with trying to give advice is that we are
>all
>>so very different, so what worked for me most probably won’t work
>
>>for your kid Marc.
>> Anyway, still hoping for the best for you both.
>>Peace,
>>Preston
>>
>>
>
>Preston, with HIGH TIMES, NORML & Ethan Nadelman more or less
>conspiring to Ibogaine a secret, doesn’t it seem like you’re just
>
>following the party line in pushing for Marc to pay for his son’s
>
>heroin?
>
>Compare what Marc’s doing putting on an ibogaine seminar with Steve
>
>Bloom saying we have to drop Ibogaine, or H.T. will no longer deal
>
>with us.
>
>Can imagine Steve Hager doing what Marc’s doing?
>
>The reason the kid was justified in ripping off the $150,000 was
>that
>it was just pot money, right?
>
>Dana/cnw
>
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From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] respect to all
Date: November 4, 2002 at 9:09:07 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Heaven is the perfect memory.
Chris
—– Original Message —–
From: preston peet
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:52 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] respect to all
>Funny though, I could just picture my MOM going out
and trying to find a good source of dope for me (as in
YOU ARE FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND – looking at it from
that perspective and do not mean to insult you/call
you names…).<
LOL, ok touche. I have enough trouble trying to picture smoking a joint with my ‘rents, (I’m also adopted, by ‘rents who booted me partially over said pot use my senior year of high school)
>Who’s picture from who’s perspective?<
Again, touche. I guess what I’m trying to say is offer him free dope that’s clean, you cut out SOME of the harms associated with dope use. If he is, (AGAIN I WRITE) insisting that he will keep using dope, MAYBE supplying clean dope is something to try. Then again, maybe not. To each their own.
>From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like 80%+
effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated use
in patients who really want to give it up and do the
work. <
Isn’t that pretty much the norm no matter what the route? Not the 80 percent figure, (which I’m curious about anyway, having seen nothing that points to that at all from ibogaine use, just from hanging out here) but the “really wants to give up and do the work” part.
>Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you do
certainly seem to have an agenda.<
My agenda? End the war, end the prejudice.
Ok, maybe I got a little hot after reading Dana’s note, please excuse me.
I was honestly only making a suggestion after reading that Marc’s kid was back on the streets doing dope again, and I could swear Marc wrote something about how his son is now out of the house and out of contact again. That depresses me somewhat, and I feel for the both of them, and really, honestly, just want them to be the happiest, safest they can be. If his son truely wants off dope, more power to him, and he deserves all the help he can get, if he keeps trying.
I just happen to think some people are pre-disposed to using dope/etc. and the endless war on them and their use usually drives them to further depths of despair, above and beyond that derived the actual use itself. I understand that my wishes are not reality, and that my ideas about dope are not all that acceptable nowadays.
Respect to all.
And nope, haven’t tried ibogaine, and perhaps someday, when I’ve got time and a lot of money I don’t know what to do with, I’ll try it. For the understanding.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
> If Marc’s
> kid insists that he wants to keep doing dope, THEN
> and only then think about the idea of finding him a
> safe source. REDUCE THE HARMS any way possible. Yes
> indeed, here is what I wrote:
Sometimes it is the harms that bring people into
recovery (ouch that hurt so I will stop…). Sometimes
the patient is unwilling to “go with the program”.
Some people are in love (odd term for it) with the
problem, life-style, maybe they are hell-bent on
destroying themselves – I certainly have known
several. Maybe he has abandonment issues he is getting
even with the world over.
When I was in jail, there were those folks in there
who would get out and commit like 47 felonies in their
first 24 hours out – to get even with the system.
Point, just because you give someone all the things
they need (eg, to reduce harm by giving them free/pure
dope…), don’t mean they are going to reduce the harm
to themselves. How many addicts (or just people) out
there don’t follow the instructions on a prescription
bottle??? Eg don’t mix with alcohol or don’t drive –
they do it anyway. So, in Marc Jr’s case (not that I
know this), it just may be an opportunity for him to
take more dope. NOT THAT YOU ARE WRONG, just I don’t
think every case is every case AND seems Marc did just
about what you are suggesting (the “kid” was being
fed/sheltered/given an allowance, tried meth… tried
this, tried that, and now we are on the other thing –
ibo).
>
> “And, as sacrilegious as it may sound, if he is
> going to insist on remaining sprung, help him find a
> relatively decent source to cop from. Reduce the
I did that with my brother once, that was when it went
from bad to worse. Good cheap drugs sometimes means
doing more good cheap drugs and getting in deeper. On
the bright side, maybe if I did’t turn him on to that
source (right down the block!), it wouldn’t have
gotten so bad and he wouldn’t have had to go into
treatment…
Funny though, I could just picture my MOM going out
and trying to find a good source of dope for me (as in
YOU ARE FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND – looking at it from
that perspective and do not mean to insult you/call
you names…).
> It was not the first suggestion I made, nor is it a
> suggestion I seriously expect very many people in
> this day and age of prohibitionist hysteria, at
> least on this continent, to accept, or one that
> would be very easy to pull off. But it certainly
> wouldn’t be impossible, especially if one has the
> money to do it. What the hell is wrong with thinking
> about the whole fucking picture?
Who’s picture from who’s perspective?
Anyway, again opiates themselves are NOT that bad
physically, absolutely NO DOUBT than the are because
of the junk in them, life-style involved,
illegality…
> Why should Marc’s
> kid have to wait until he gets off dope, or for that
> matter, does ibogaine, to deserve whatever
> reductions in harm are possible now, even if it be
> illegal heroin maintenance? (BTW, though this may
> have been covered here already, is ibogaine legal in
> Canada? If not….)
Yes, ibogaine is legal in Canada and what do you mean
by “if not…..”? And to answer your question – SURE,
Marc JR and every addict/human/dog/cat deserves
whatever reductions in harm that are possible – that
does NOT however translate to reducing the harm to
Marc Jr (in 1:1) if you gave him what you suggest.
Also, it just isn’t that way at the moment, I can’t
run down to the corner drug store and get pure H for
free and have someone pay my bills while I shoot up
all day TILL (maybe) one day I decide to stop. Maybe
if that was offered to me, I would take up shooting up
dope – ever think of that (since you are on some
rather odd what if’s)
> That’s cold for some to expect
> and demand, which is what I got from Dana’s
> response, though I suppose I could be putting words
> into his mouth now. As “great” as ibogaine can be
> for some in stopping withdrawal symptoms, once again
> by this incident with Marc’s son we see that
> ibogaine is not a cure for anything, but merely one
> more tool amongst hundreds probably. Yeah, it might
> work great at cutting withdrawals, but hey, if
> someone thinks there’s a handy way, (through three
What 3 days tripping are you talking about? I have
NEVER had that experience with ibogaine. I was rocked
for 3 days, oozy and stuff but “tripping” myself never
more than 12 hours on high doses.
Have you ever done ibo, if not, might do you good – I
mean might help you understand it a little better <g>.
> days of tripping granted, which can’t really be so
> bad now can it considering the number of people on
> this list who rave about it) to take their dope then
> kick without kicking, why quit permanently? And
That thought I am sure has crossed some peoples minds.
No doubt with ANY detox method, addicts do it to
clean-up, reduce their need so they can just start all
over again (or whatever reason, they are going to
Court, need to piss clean for a new job…). I do know
someone who does pretty much what you suggest, so?
That does not mean everyone or a majority of people do
it, what you are saying is called “splitting hairs”.
> considering the number of people I have now heard of
> who tried ibogaine then went back to using more than
> once, doesn’t anyone suspect that this might be
> something to think about? Or is that too
In what respect should one think about it? It does
kind of sound like you are “spreading doubt” rather
than saying, “sure the stuff works but it isn’t a one
shot deal most of the time” (cept for detox AND often
a head start) – Soooo, think about that.
> sacrilegious to think about and against the party
> line, that not all people find themselves with
> brains completely reset and lacking the desire to
> use after ibogaine dosing, even sometimes
> repeatedly, no matter how fresh and clear they are
> after their ibogaine experiences?
And so what? What is your point? NO, it doesn’t work
for everyone, of course nothing does and IBOGAINE is
far better than anything else out there – unless of
course you disagree.
From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like 80%+
effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated use
in patients who really want to give it up and do the
work. Because of some “use” you could re-calculate
that another way, it will reduce drug use by 80+%.
Some people consider me still to be a “user”, after
all I still take mind altering drugs (pain meds) on
occasion. Even in patients who are not really into
giving up drugs, it does still seem to work well as a
detox and you still get 20% long term recovery rates
in a single dose.
Tell me anything that comes close to those numbers?
Preston, I hear what you are saying but think you are
saying it a bit too loudly and applying it a bit too
broadly – from my perspective. ABSO-FUKEN-LUTELY, harm
will be reduced if the Drug War/probition was ended
and people could get good/clean, cheap dope – of that
I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that some people
will very readily kill themselves with good/clean,
cheap (or free) dope and there will be no reduced harm
– to them, just MORE GOOD/CLEAN/CHEAP/FREE/DOPE and
being supported till they die.
Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you do
certainly seem to have an agenda.
Brett
> Sheeze.
> End the War, harm reduction rules.
> Peace,
> Preston
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Brett Calabrese
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic
> question for marc emery EDITING
>
>
>
> — Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Preston,
>
> My take on it is if you gave Marc Jr all the dope
> (clean/free and supported him) he wanted, he would
> basically do nothing but lie there shooting the
> stuff till he died. Another addict may become
> “functional”, just as many do on methadone – and
> many don’t…
>
> Sure, good clean/free dope and someone supporting
> your
> habit will certainly stop many of the ills
> associated
> with opiate addiction – over all. Unfortunatly
> this is
> not how it is and all but impossible to do in the
> current environment – it also will simply not work
> for
> everyone.
>
> Any treatment has its place, be it MM, the 12
> steps,
> smoking pot/using softer drugs instead, ibogaine,
> throw their asses in Jail and teach em a lesson,
> JESES
> LOVES YOU/yes he does, methadone or whatever. Any
> of
> those will work for some, none of them will work
> for
> all. It is IMO an error on our part to use our pet
> brand of treatment (or whatever) as “the” answer,
> addicts simply not respond the same way. Just as
> it is
> the WRONG method to satisfy all computing needs
> using
> MicroSoft products – it does not fit the needs of
> all
> clients – contrary to what many salesmen would
> like
> you to believe (and I am sure INTEL would be more
> than
> happy to go along with that since I can do 100
> times
> as much on a RISC processor running UNIX as I can
> do
> on a WIN-TEL box – so ya need more of em, just
> like we
> need more Jails to treat addicts, same difference,
> neither solves the problem…). Sorry,, kind of a
> techie thing Patrick would get for sure.
>
> I was addicted to morphine (for pain). I got my
> script
> once a month (or longer, I forgot), took my 120mgs
> a
> day and was miserable on it – even after months to
> get
> “use” to it. So much for cheap clean dope being my
> answer (it didn’t work with the oxycodone or
> Dilaudid
> either, or the pot OR NA/AA or jail or 7 treatment
> centers, or…). Ibogaine worked for me if
> anything
> one thing did. It won’t work for all either EXCEPT
> it
> is in a class all its own as a detox agent and
> slightly lagging behind that, removes
> cravings/resets
> a bunch of stuff – not that that stops an addict
> from
> getting high if they are bored on a Saturday
> afternoon…
>
> Brett
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
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> __________________________________________________
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] respect to all
Date: November 4, 2002 at 8:52:48 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Funny though, I could just picture my MOM going out
and trying to find a good source of dope for me (as in
YOU ARE FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND – looking at it from
that perspective and do not mean to insult you/call
you names…).<
LOL, ok touche. I have enough trouble trying to picture smoking a joint with my ‘rents, (I’m also adopted, by ‘rents who booted me partially over said pot use my senior year of high school)
>Who’s picture from who’s perspective?<
Again, touche. I guess what I’m trying to say is offer him free dope that’s clean, you cut out SOME of the harms associated with dope use. If he is, (AGAIN I WRITE) insisting that he will keep using dope, MAYBE supplying clean dope is something to try. Then again, maybe not. To each their own.
>From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like 80%+
effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated use
in patients who really want to give it up and do the
work. <
Isn’t that pretty much the norm no matter what the route? Not the 80 percent figure, (which I’m curious about anyway, having seen nothing that points to that at all from ibogaine use, just from hanging out here) but the “really wants to give up and do the work” part.
>Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you do
certainly seem to have an agenda.<
My agenda? End the war, end the prejudice.
Ok, maybe I got a little hot after reading Dana’s note, please excuse me.
I was honestly only making a suggestion after reading that Marc’s kid was back on the streets doing dope again, and I could swear Marc wrote something about how his son is now out of the house and out of contact again. That depresses me somewhat, and I feel for the both of them, and really, honestly, just want them to be the happiest, safest they can be. If his son truely wants off dope, more power to him, and he deserves all the help he can get, if he keeps trying.
I just happen to think some people are pre-disposed to using dope/etc. and the endless war on them and their use usually drives them to further depths of despair, above and beyond that derived the actual use itself. I understand that my wishes are not reality, and that my ideas about dope are not all that acceptable nowadays.
Respect to all.
And nope, haven’t tried ibogaine, and perhaps someday, when I’ve got time and a lot of money I don’t know what to do with, I’ll try it. For the understanding.;-))
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
> If Marc’s
> kid insists that he wants to keep doing dope, THEN
> and only then think about the idea of finding him a
> safe source. REDUCE THE HARMS any way possible. Yes
> indeed, here is what I wrote:
Sometimes it is the harms that bring people into
recovery (ouch that hurt so I will stop…). Sometimes
the patient is unwilling to “go with the program”.
Some people are in love (odd term for it) with the
problem, life-style, maybe they are hell-bent on
destroying themselves – I certainly have known
several. Maybe he has abandonment issues he is getting
even with the world over.
When I was in jail, there were those folks in there
who would get out and commit like 47 felonies in their
first 24 hours out – to get even with the system.
Point, just because you give someone all the things
they need (eg, to reduce harm by giving them free/pure
dope…), don’t mean they are going to reduce the harm
to themselves. How many addicts (or just people) out
there don’t follow the instructions on a prescription
bottle??? Eg don’t mix with alcohol or don’t drive –
they do it anyway. So, in Marc Jr’s case (not that I
know this), it just may be an opportunity for him to
take more dope. NOT THAT YOU ARE WRONG, just I don’t
think every case is every case AND seems Marc did just
about what you are suggesting (the “kid” was being
fed/sheltered/given an allowance, tried meth… tried
this, tried that, and now we are on the other thing –
ibo).
>
> “And, as sacrilegious as it may sound, if he is
> going to insist on remaining sprung, help him find a
> relatively decent source to cop from. Reduce the
I did that with my brother once, that was when it went
from bad to worse. Good cheap drugs sometimes means
doing more good cheap drugs and getting in deeper. On
the bright side, maybe if I did’t turn him on to that
source (right down the block!), it wouldn’t have
gotten so bad and he wouldn’t have had to go into
treatment…
Funny though, I could just picture my MOM going out
and trying to find a good source of dope for me (as in
YOU ARE FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND – looking at it from
that perspective and do not mean to insult you/call
you names…).
> It was not the first suggestion I made, nor is it a
> suggestion I seriously expect very many people in
> this day and age of prohibitionist hysteria, at
> least on this continent, to accept, or one that
> would be very easy to pull off. But it certainly
> wouldn’t be impossible, especially if one has the
> money to do it. What the hell is wrong with thinking
> about the whole fucking picture?
Who’s picture from who’s perspective?
Anyway, again opiates themselves are NOT that bad
physically, absolutely NO DOUBT than the are because
of the junk in them, life-style involved,
illegality…
> Why should Marc’s
> kid have to wait until he gets off dope, or for that
> matter, does ibogaine, to deserve whatever
> reductions in harm are possible now, even if it be
> illegal heroin maintenance? (BTW, though this may
> have been covered here already, is ibogaine legal in
> Canada? If not….)
Yes, ibogaine is legal in Canada and what do you mean
by “if not…..”? And to answer your question – SURE,
Marc JR and every addict/human/dog/cat deserves
whatever reductions in harm that are possible – that
does NOT however translate to reducing the harm to
Marc Jr (in 1:1) if you gave him what you suggest.
Also, it just isn’t that way at the moment, I can’t
run down to the corner drug store and get pure H for
free and have someone pay my bills while I shoot up
all day TILL (maybe) one day I decide to stop. Maybe
if that was offered to me, I would take up shooting up
dope – ever think of that (since you are on some
rather odd what if’s)
> That’s cold for some to expect
> and demand, which is what I got from Dana’s
> response, though I suppose I could be putting words
> into his mouth now. As “great” as ibogaine can be
> for some in stopping withdrawal symptoms, once again
> by this incident with Marc’s son we see that
> ibogaine is not a cure for anything, but merely one
> more tool amongst hundreds probably. Yeah, it might
> work great at cutting withdrawals, but hey, if
> someone thinks there’s a handy way, (through three
What 3 days tripping are you talking about? I have
NEVER had that experience with ibogaine. I was rocked
for 3 days, oozy and stuff but “tripping” myself never
more than 12 hours on high doses.
Have you ever done ibo, if not, might do you good – I
mean might help you understand it a little better <g>.
> days of tripping granted, which can’t really be so
> bad now can it considering the number of people on
> this list who rave about it) to take their dope then
> kick without kicking, why quit permanently? And
That thought I am sure has crossed some peoples minds.
No doubt with ANY detox method, addicts do it to
clean-up, reduce their need so they can just start all
over again (or whatever reason, they are going to
Court, need to piss clean for a new job…). I do know
someone who does pretty much what you suggest, so?
That does not mean everyone or a majority of people do
it, what you are saying is called “splitting hairs”.
> considering the number of people I have now heard of
> who tried ibogaine then went back to using more than
> once, doesn’t anyone suspect that this might be
> something to think about? Or is that too
In what respect should one think about it? It does
kind of sound like you are “spreading doubt” rather
than saying, “sure the stuff works but it isn’t a one
shot deal most of the time” (cept for detox AND often
a head start) – Soooo, think about that.
> sacrilegious to think about and against the party
> line, that not all people find themselves with
> brains completely reset and lacking the desire to
> use after ibogaine dosing, even sometimes
> repeatedly, no matter how fresh and clear they are
> after their ibogaine experiences?
And so what? What is your point? NO, it doesn’t work
for everyone, of course nothing does and IBOGAINE is
far better than anything else out there – unless of
course you disagree.
From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like 80%+
effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated use
in patients who really want to give it up and do the
work. Because of some “use” you could re-calculate
that another way, it will reduce drug use by 80+%.
Some people consider me still to be a “user”, after
all I still take mind altering drugs (pain meds) on
occasion. Even in patients who are not really into
giving up drugs, it does still seem to work well as a
detox and you still get 20% long term recovery rates
in a single dose.
Tell me anything that comes close to those numbers?
Preston, I hear what you are saying but think you are
saying it a bit too loudly and applying it a bit too
broadly – from my perspective. ABSO-FUKEN-LUTELY, harm
will be reduced if the Drug War/probition was ended
and people could get good/clean, cheap dope – of that
I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that some people
will very readily kill themselves with good/clean,
cheap (or free) dope and there will be no reduced harm
– to them, just MORE GOOD/CLEAN/CHEAP/FREE/DOPE and
being supported till they die.
Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you do
certainly seem to have an agenda.
Brett
> Sheeze.
> End the War, harm reduction rules.
> Peace,
> Preston
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Brett Calabrese
> To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic
> question for marc emery EDITING
>
>
>
> — Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Preston,
>
> My take on it is if you gave Marc Jr all the dope
> (clean/free and supported him) he wanted, he would
> basically do nothing but lie there shooting the
> stuff till he died. Another addict may become
> “functional”, just as many do on methadone – and
> many don’t…
>
> Sure, good clean/free dope and someone supporting
> your
> habit will certainly stop many of the ills
> associated
> with opiate addiction – over all. Unfortunatly
> this is
> not how it is and all but impossible to do in the
> current environment – it also will simply not work
> for
> everyone.
>
> Any treatment has its place, be it MM, the 12
> steps,
> smoking pot/using softer drugs instead, ibogaine,
> throw their asses in Jail and teach em a lesson,
> JESES
> LOVES YOU/yes he does, methadone or whatever. Any
> of
> those will work for some, none of them will work
> for
> all. It is IMO an error on our part to use our pet
> brand of treatment (or whatever) as “the” answer,
> addicts simply not respond the same way. Just as
> it is
> the WRONG method to satisfy all computing needs
> using
> MicroSoft products – it does not fit the needs of
> all
> clients – contrary to what many salesmen would
> like
> you to believe (and I am sure INTEL would be more
> than
> happy to go along with that since I can do 100
> times
> as much on a RISC processor running UNIX as I can
> do
> on a WIN-TEL box – so ya need more of em, just
> like we
> need more Jails to treat addicts, same difference,
> neither solves the problem…). Sorry,, kind of a
> techie thing Patrick would get for sure.
>
> I was addicted to morphine (for pain). I got my
> script
> once a month (or longer, I forgot), took my 120mgs
> a
> day and was miserable on it – even after months to
> get
> “use” to it. So much for cheap clean dope being my
> answer (it didn’t work with the oxycodone or
> Dilaudid
> either, or the pot OR NA/AA or jail or 7 treatment
> centers, or…). Ibogaine worked for me if
> anything
> one thing did. It won’t work for all either EXCEPT
> it
> is in a class all its own as a detox agent and
> slightly lagging behind that, removes
> cravings/resets
> a bunch of stuff – not that that stops an addict
> from
> getting high if they are bored on a Saturday
> afternoon…
>
> Brett
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
> > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
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>
>
>
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From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Sacrilegious? No. Brave? Yep!
Date: November 4, 2002 at 7:43:21 PM EST
To: Ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And considering the number of people I have now heard of who tried ibogaine then went back to using more than once, doesn’t anyone suspect that this might be something to think about? Or is that too sacrilegious to think about and against the party line, that not all people find themselves with brains completely reset and lacking the desire to use after ibogaine dosing, even sometimes repeatedly, no matter how fresh and clear they are after their ibogaine experiences?
Dear Preston, everybody
U make a very important point here methinks.
And everytime i go back to the British System book i told U about, i recall their reasoning for prescribing: we were/are thought to be people with a albeit minor mental illness, who need drugs on script, like depressives get SSRIs etc. I’d be interested, e.g. to know how many of us are now on prozac, instead of methadone or H.
I don’t find your suggestion sacrilegious at all, but I think there is something VERY deep in all human beings that NEEDS 2 believe that we, As who have suffered so much, can overcome the adversity (called addiction) in this case, and live without Ds. Truth is, some can, but most seem not to; it will be even more interesting to see how many remain addicted indefinitely when the laws change..
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] !!Fighting, i don’t think so
Date: November 4, 2002 at 7:42:11 PM EST
To: Ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Goosebumps wrote:
But oh well i think of all you people during my daily meditations i wonder what you people are really like.Whatever i hope one day we can all just be as one i swear i will try my hardest and i suggest everyone should just try to get along we are all humans and it is our nature to fight but we can overcome instinct with logic and love.
so thatsx all goodbye friends yours truly from Michigan.
Dear Friend
I wasn’t aware of a fight going on here but am important discussion about different drugs. And I can’t speak for y’all, but for me this has been a great debate, simply cos most of us r (i think) ex/current addict users: 4 me that makes it very special AND HEALTHY
Thanx for having me/us in yr daily meditation; if yr real name is Brendan, I’ll put u in mine too! (Can nver work out whose who on this darned lists!) I’m an ol’ gal; that’s my excuse, and P don’t be suggesting otherwise!)
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 7:11:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, DDanforbes@aol.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I like High Times and Cannabis Culture both. Can we please all try
to be decent to each other?
If a lot of LOD members became drug addicts, maybe it is because
having the FBI and secret service try to throw you in prison is very
stressful.
I don’t know many happy junkies. None really. I know some functional
ones. I was one for a long time too. I know a lot of happy potheads.
I think this is a very harsh time for Marc with his son out there
and asking him to see the big picture by saying he should give his
son heroin is not the best thing to say.
I think everything should be legalised too. But please, let’s not
always turn everything into a argument and then start pointing it at
individual people. Bro there are people behind the words, maybe you
don’t know anything about them. You can read about them, but what do
you know about what motivates anyone to do anything. Try to be kind,
we are all trying to survive.
And if you want to drag out the hacker past, then why not take it to
the vox or full disclosure list, where everyone there is taking part
of that scene. It must be very harsh to keep having people who do
not know you, read things somewhere and then come at you with
whatever it says you did 10 years ago.
Peace out,
Curtis
I think you’re closer to my real thrust, but this is NOT about
battling stoner mags, but the fact that the one hasn’t done any
ibogaine stuff since at least ’98, and the other is sponsoring ibo
trainings. Didn’t you get the import of Marc’s message?
At 4:13 PM -0800 11/3/02, MARC wrote:
On Saturday November 2 I held a seminar that attracted 20 – 25 health care
professionally, addicts representatives, other interested parties,
feauturing acupuncturist Nelson Corinchi from San Francisco. The CBC radio
News and CKNW radio covered the event with interviews. The seminar will be
shown in segments on POT-TV, as well as an hour long interview with the
first person I sent to Amsterdam to get iboga therapy from Sara Glatt, is
currently on the site right now. (POT-TV.net) . The interview with Sascha is
excellent in that is showed me and the viewer how difficult a winding road
addiction & recovery is.
That having been said, we are taking on more patients, getting our permanent
facility ready, tens of thousands of dollars worth of ads have been bought
for the next two weeks that feature iboga therapy as “A revolutionary new
hope in addiction therapy.”
in my campaign for Mayor of Vancouver.
And I am no longer depressed about relapsing, but determined to add of our
light to the sum of light, and hope some of it sticks!
Marc Emery
The point I’m getting to here is not about one person’s drug problem,
but “Movement Norms” (to the extent folks consider themselves a
movement) and the potential dynamism of what Marc’s doing compared
with what the rest of the drug reform movement is doing–or compared
to our individual efforts on this list, for instance.
The significant thing here is that H.T. was set up as a trust to fund
this kind of thing– Tom would have wanted it that way– and that
money has been skyjacked for other purposes.
None of the three millionaires you mentioned has given any money to
ibogaine either, yet, though efforts have been made to get their
support.
Marc’s the only one who’s doing the right thing. I like to think that
this addition to what cures not wars has been doing is the beginning
of a snowball effect. That’s why you should all get people to come to
our Nov. 16th forum in Harlem, and support the ones in S.F. and Paris
and the international conference here in February.
I just found out we’re set to lose our base here at 9 Bleecker. If
this movement can grow, we can handle that. If ibogaine continues to
stall because other drug reform groups shun it, the loss will be a
lot harder to bear.
Dana/cnw
At 2:36 PM -0800 11/4/02, ascending@hushmail.com wrote:
Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the
Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who
defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing
about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into their
own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were but some
cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to prison. The
Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have been civil
litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many in Legion of
Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has spent half its
life behind bars.
I don’t think any drug related distribution charges were ever
brought against anyone from LOD but it certainly produced a lot of
drug addicts. It also produced at least 3 millionaries, maybe more
since so many people from it are MIA or changed identities and
vanished somewhere.
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 7:11:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
You need to smoke a bowl and get laid more then anyone I have met lately.
You are like 20 something and already a bitter and angry old man.
I am off this thread, do not need the negative energy.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote :
I’m very sorry bro. I didn’t mean to harsh up your head bro. And most of this is on the vox and fd lists bro. I didn’t post this as any big part of my message bro and why don’t you take your motherlovebone sandal wearing granola eating hippie self out of pointing it all at me bro because if they are all so sorry about that shit then why do they dump it into their media kit bro. Kenkappel is run by Bruce Fancher bro. Mindvox used to publish scans of all their subpeonas bro. Ken Kappel is still this weird site filled with some Kennedy conspiracy writer’s problems with suing Mindvox bro. In there is some interesting reading bro. Charges that Mindvox is intercepting phone calls, accessing non public databases, changing credit reports, it goes on bro. And it is 1997 bro. Not 1987. None of them ever stopped any of it bro. They just stopped getting caught.
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From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 6:52:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m very sorry bro. I didn’t mean to harsh up your head bro. And most of this is on the vox and fd lists bro. I didn’t post this as any big part of my message bro and why don’t you take your motherlovebone sandal wearing granola eating hippie self out of pointing it all at me bro because if they are all so sorry about that shit then why do they dump it into their media kit bro. Kenkappel is run by Bruce Fancher bro. Mindvox used to publish scans of all their subpeonas bro. Ken Kappel is still this weird site filled with some Kennedy conspiracy writer’s problems with suing Mindvox bro. In there is some interesting reading bro. Charges that Mindvox is intercepting phone calls, accessing non public databases, changing credit reports, it goes on bro. And it is 1997 bro. Not 1987. None of them ever stopped any of it bro. They just stopped getting caught.
Maybe Patrick has done enough entheogens to stop being a sociopath but they still rate way up there on the antisocial scale bro.
And none of this belongs on the ibogaine list bro. And you know what bro, I didn’t put it there bro. I posted a message about glamorizing heroin bro and that was half a sentence in my msg bro.
And the only reason you always stick up for Ascending bro, is because he is your ibogaine dealer bro. So shut the fuck up bro.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 15:26:48 -0800 Curtis Hersch <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com> wrote:
I like High Times and Cannabis Culture both. Can we please all try
to be decent to each other?
If a lot of LOD members became drug addicts, maybe it is because
having the FBI and secret service try to throw you in prison is
very stressful.
I don’t know many happy junkies. None really. I know some
functional ones. I was one for a long time too. I know a lot of
happy potheads. I think this is a very harsh time for Marc with
his son out there and asking him to see the big picture by saying
he should give his son heroin is not the best thing to say.
I think everything should be legalised too. But please, let’s not
always turn everything into a argument and then start pointing it
at individual people. Bro there are people behind the words, maybe
you don’t know anything about them. You can read about them, but
what do you know about what motivates anyone to do anything. Try
to be kind, we are all trying to survive.
And if you want to drag out the hacker past, then why not take it
to the vox or full disclosure list, where everyone there is taking
part of that scene. It must be very harsh to keep having people
who do not know you, read things somewhere and then come at you
with whatever it says you did 10 years ago.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :
Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the
Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who
defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing
about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into
their own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were
but some cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to
prison. The Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have
been civil litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many
in
Legion of Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has
spent half its life behind bars.
I don’t think any drug related distribution charges were ever
brought against anyone from LOD but it certainly produced a lot
of drug addicts. It also produced at least 3 millionaries, maybe
more since so many people from it are MIA or changed identities
and vanished somewhere.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:21:54 -0800 brendan22@hushmail.com
wrote:
Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You
have
a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re
written
into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know
technology,
you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the
shit
dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off
for
a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s
lawyers
from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your
lawsuits,
you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the
FBI,
all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just
went
black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in
the
head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you
out,
you did it yourselves.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________________
Give your Company an email address like
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Know more. http://www.rediffmailpro.com/signup/
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 6:29:07 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Free Winona!
—– Original Message —–
From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc
emery
I like High Times and Cannabis Culture both. Can we please all try
to be decent to each other?
If a lot of LOD members became drug addicts, maybe it is because
having the FBI and secret service try to throw you in prison is
very stressful.
I don’t know many happy junkies. None really. I know some
functional ones. I was one for a long time too. I know a lot of
happy potheads. I think this is a very harsh time for Marc with
his son out there and asking him to see the big picture by saying
he should give his son heroin is not the best thing to say.
I think everything should be legalised too. But please, let’s not
always turn everything into a argument and then start pointing it
at individual people. Bro there are people behind the words, maybe
you don’t know anything about them. You can read about them, but
what do you know about what motivates anyone to do anything. Try
to be kind, we are all trying to survive.
And if you want to drag out the hacker past, then why not take it
to the vox or full disclosure list, where everyone there is taking
part of that scene. It must be very harsh to keep having people
who do not know you, read things somewhere and then come at you
with whatever it says you did 10 years ago.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :
Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the
Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who
defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing
about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into
their own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were
but some cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to
prison. The Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have
been civil litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many in
Legion of Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has
spent half its life behind bars.
I don’t think any drug related distribution charges were ever
brought against anyone from LOD but it certainly produced a lot
of drug addicts. It also produced at least 3 millionaries, maybe
more since so many people from it are MIA or changed identities
and vanished somewhere.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:21:54 -0800 brendan22@hushmail.com
wrote:
Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You
have
a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re
written
into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know
technology,
you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the
shit
dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off
for
a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s
lawyers
from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your
lawsuits,
you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the
FBI,
all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just
went
black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in
the
head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you
out,
you did it yourselves.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 6:26:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I like High Times and Cannabis Culture both. Can we please all try to be decent to each other?
If a lot of LOD members became drug addicts, maybe it is because having the FBI and secret service try to throw you in prison is very stressful.
I don’t know many happy junkies. None really. I know some functional ones. I was one for a long time too. I know a lot of happy potheads. I think this is a very harsh time for Marc with his son out there and asking him to see the big picture by saying he should give his son heroin is not the best thing to say.
I think everything should be legalised too. But please, let’s not always turn everything into a argument and then start pointing it at individual people. Bro there are people behind the words, maybe you don’t know anything about them. You can read about them, but what do you know about what motivates anyone to do anything. Try to be kind, we are all trying to survive.
And if you want to drag out the hacker past, then why not take it to the vox or full disclosure list, where everyone there is taking part of that scene. It must be very harsh to keep having people who do not know you, read things somewhere and then come at you with whatever it says you did 10 years ago.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote :
Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into their own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were but some cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to prison. The Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have been civil litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many in Legion of Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has spent half its life behind bars.
I don’t think any drug related distribution charges were ever brought against anyone from LOD but it certainly produced a lot of drug addicts. It also produced at least 3 millionaries, maybe more since so many people from it are MIA or changed identities and vanished somewhere.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:21:54 -0800 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
>Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You have
>a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re written
>into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know technology,
> you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the shit
>dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off for
>a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s lawyers
>from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your lawsuits,
>you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the FBI,
>all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just went
>black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in the
>head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you out,
> you did it yourselves.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 6:20:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
LOD was the first group of hackers to gain attention in a really big way. They got much press and are the reason a lot of computer crime laws were written in the first place. It’s, let’s say they did not name themselves the Superfriends.
LOD is all over the Mindvox media kit. And here are parts of old Mindvox during sundevil which was the manhunt that started when LOD and MOD went to war.
http://www.mindvox.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MindVoxUI.woa/wa/staticpage%3fpagename=Media
http://www.textfiles.com/bbs/MINDVOX/
http://kenkappel.com/Planet-Internet-Hires-Legion-of-Doom.pdf
All of it started with 3 members of LOD being arrested for getting busted reprogramming Bellsouth computers. Their investigation discovered that they were monitoring phone lines, creating thousands of fake phone numbers, credit reports, then RICO came because when LOD started being investigated a lot of their knowledge was published. A especially fun one being how to intercept electronic funds transactions from banks. This made the secret service and FBI have to start chasing 1000s of what are now called script kiddies, instead of only looking for 12 or 15 guys. It made them unhappy 🙂
This is all computer history from the 80’s and early 90’s. By 93 all of them were doing legit crime in dot.com 🙂 Correction bro, most. I’m not clear.
Don’t think any of this has much to do with ibogaine or heroin where it started as three words in someone’s message.
Peace out,
Curtis
On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 Jon Freedlander wrote :
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote:
>
> Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into their own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were but some cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to prison. The Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have been civil litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many in Legion of Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has spent half its life behind bars.
Ok, i’m curious enough here to admit my naivete….what is/was the Legion
of Doom?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“John Walters is a pathetic drug-war soul who is defending a whole
catalog of horrors he’s indifferent to.”
–John Sperling
__________________________________________________________
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Know more. http://www.rediffmailpro.com/signup/
From: “ccadden” <elgrekkko@carolina.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Free Winona!
Date: November 4, 2002 at 5:52:17 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I just wanted to say that. Comic relief. Anyone here who is more concerned
about quibbles than the fate of Winona has got problems………..Free
Winona!
Chris
————————–
“In heaven, all the interesting people are missing.”
————————–
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 5:45:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 ascending@hushmail.com wrote:
Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into their own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were but some cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to prison. The Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have been civil litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many in Legion of Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has spent half its life behind bars.
Ok, i’m curious enough here to admit my naivete….what is/was the Legion
of Doom?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“John Walters is a pathetic drug-war soul who is defending a whole
catalog of horrors he’s indifferent to.”
–John Sperling
From: ascending@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 5:36:29 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Actually their lawyers came from the EFF, meaning money from the Grateful Dead, Lotus 1-2-3 and Sun. They hired that person who defended the Chicago 7. Great publicity. Too bad he knew nothing about computer crime laws. He was fired, they all split into their own groups, I don’t remember who the criminal lawyers were but some cases were dropped, some won, some lost and went to prison. The Village Voice lawyers from Fancher’s dad would have been civil litigation, not the RICO and criminal charges. Many in Legion of Doom went to prison. By 2002 at least 30% of LOD has spent half its life behind bars.
I don’t think any drug related distribution charges were ever brought against anyone from LOD but it certainly produced a lot of drug addicts. It also produced at least 3 millionaries, maybe more since so many people from it are MIA or changed identities and vanished somewhere.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:21:54 -0800 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You have
a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re written
into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know technology,
you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the shit
dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off for
a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s lawyers
from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your lawsuits,
you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the FBI,
all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just went
black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in the
head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you out,
you did it yourselves.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: Ustanova Iboga <Iboga@guest.arnes.si>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 4:58:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
At 22:21 4.11.2002, you wrote:
I do dump here a lot of the time and don’t spend my life taking any of what’s written here to heart but just to toss in my opinon without anger or cynicism.
I don’t have any interest in the battle of the stoner mags that Dana started up here.
My question or not even question but comment is for Preston and Patrick, who are two people who always defend legalizing everything and leaving people alone.
Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You have a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re written into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know technology, you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the shit dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off for a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s lawyers from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your lawsuits, you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the FBI, all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just went black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in the head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you out, you did it yourselves.
You’ve risen from the dead, but. Have you ever thought what you might have been if you hadn’t spent half your life strung out? I’m not sure what that means, but I’m very sure both of you would be worth at least 200, 300 million. You’ve done a lot of damage. And towards the end there all that happened with Patrick on heroin was complete silence because you were too busy dealing drugs, ripping off companies, being a full time junkie to do anything else.
And your writing. You write a lot about heroin. To give you credit you write honestly. You know what I see a lot of there. Pain.
Preston. I don’t know as much about your life but I’d say exactly the same. Was it so great being a homeless person living on the streets and sleeping in the park? You are a great writer, you are prolific, you do drugwar, you write for High Times, you represent, you care about people and issues.
I never heard of anybody named Preston while your life revolved around heroin.
If both of you think heroin was so great, then tell me why you made such extreme effort to finally get it out of your life.
I don’t see pot doing that to anybody.
Compare hard and soft drugs however you want, throw out any fantasy of free heroin and legal access, heroin destroys lives. Neither one of you was among the living while you were junkies, no matter which way you want to add it back up or sell it to yourself.
The two of you and I’ll add a third bud of yours, Francis Moraes PHD, from Heroin Helper, who is another one of the brilliant junkie crew. What was he doing while he was on the love of his life. He was sitting in prison a lot. Now all he does is write live, breathe, eat, sleep, write about heroin. But he’s not doing any heroin either. See the pattern? I can’t miss it.
If all of you think it was so great, then why aren’t you still doing it.
That was my thoughtful response. Here’s the shorter one I’d usually post: bullshit.
It’s not the kill, it’s the thrill of the chase (Led Zeppelin, I think)
Or to put it in another way: Chacun sa Chimere (Baudelaire)
Marko
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emeryand me
Date: November 4, 2002 at 4:36:50 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
yes i don’t like to hear about battles maybe we should start
“Ibogaine times” What do you think about that and we could have all
sorts of things in it I’m very serious about it.This free country
we live in is about to strip us of even more rights after this
coming election!What is your alls take on any other enthnogens as
addiction helpers? I think that Exstacy Therapy helped me
significantly with some emotional prroblems i had didnt help my
typing but definatly my emotional ones.So i hate to bring up non Ibo
ethnogens here but i’m so upset.Ibo is so hard for me to get that i
cry thinking of the freedoms we have lost derectly due tto the WAR
ON DRUGS! It’s so funny how are goverment time and timeagain trys to
make peace with war!And who’s the criminal!Well thats my word i know
i don’t speak much here mainly cuz i have to spend so much time
erasing the bullshit from my mailbox.But oh well i think of all you
people during my daily meditations i wonder what you people are
really like.Whatever i hope one day we can all just be as one i
swear i will try my hardest and i suggest everyone should just try
to get along we are all humans and it is our nature to fight but we
can overcome instinct with logic and love so thatsx all goodbye
friends yours truly from Michigan.
— brendan22@hushmail.com wrote:
I do dump here a lot of the time and don’t spend my life taking
any of what’s written here to heart but just to toss in my opinon
without anger or cynicism.
I don’t have any interest in the battle of the stoner mags that
Dana started up here.
My question or not even question but comment is for Preston and
Patrick, who are two people who always defend legalizing
everything and leaving people alone.
Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You have
a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re
written into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know
technology, you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are
the shit dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that
off for a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had
daddy’s lawyers from the Village Voice on your side, you won all
your lawsuits, you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO
charges, the FBI, all that, you had everything and then what
happened. it just went black, you pulled the plug and each of you
shot yourselves in the head in your own way and went down. Nobody
needed to take you out, you did it yourselves.
You’ve risen from the dead, but. Have you ever thought what you
might have been if you hadn’t spent half your life strung out? I’m
not sure what that means, but I’m very sure both of you would be
worth at least 200, 300 million. You’ve done a lot of damage. And
towards the end there all that happened with Patrick on heroin was
complete silence because you were too busy dealing drugs, ripping
off companies, being a full time junkie to do anything else.
And your writing. You write a lot about heroin. To give you credit
you write honestly. You know what I see a lot of there. Pain.
Preston. I don’t know as much about your life but I’d say exactly
the same. Was it so great being a homeless person living on the
streets and sleeping in the park? You are a great writer, you are
prolific, you do drugwar, you write for High Times, you represent,
you care about people and issues.
I never heard of anybody named Preston while your life revolved
around heroin.
If both of you think heroin was so great, then tell me why you
made such extreme effort to finally get it out of your life.
I don’t see pot doing that to anybody.
Compare hard and soft drugs however you want, throw out any
fantasy of free heroin and legal access, heroin destroys lives.
Neither one of you was among the living while you were junkies, no
matter which way you want to add it back up or sell it to
yourself.
The two of you and I’ll add a third bud of yours, Francis Moraes
PHD, from Heroin Helper, who is another one of the brilliant
junkie crew. What was he doing while he was on the love of his
life. He was sitting in prison a lot. Now all he does is write
live, breathe, eat, sleep, write about heroin. But he’s not doing
any heroin either. See the pattern? I can’t miss it.
If all of you think it was so great, then why aren’t you still
doing it.
That was my thoughtful response. Here’s the shorter one I’d
usually post: bullshit.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:35:46 -0800 Dana Beal
<dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
Ouch.
Ok. I’m discussing this with my girlfriend, who points out
rather lucidly that while I was on dope full time, (before we
were
a
couple), she felt like she had to babysit me when hanging out
with
me. That can be rough, and she got tired of watching me screw
myself
over and over, (but I was also doing speedballs, not just dope).
As
I wrote before, was he doing anything other than getting high,
or
methadone at least, for those 2 years?
Methadone worked for me, but obviously doesn’t work for
anyone.
It does seem to have ruined my teeth though.
The trouble I find with trying to give advice is that we
are
all
so very different, so what worked for me most probably won’t
work
for your kid Marc.
Anyway, still hoping for the best for you both.
Peace,
Preston
Preston, with HIGH TIMES, NORML & Ethan Nadelman more or less
conspiring to Ibogaine a secret, doesn’t it seem like you’re
just
following the party line in pushing for Marc to pay for his son’s
heroin?
Compare what Marc’s doing putting on an ibogaine seminar with
Steve
Bloom saying we have to drop Ibogaine, or H.T. will no longer
deal
with us.
Can imagine Steve Hager doing what Marc’s doing?
The reason the kid was justified in ripping off the $150,000 was
that
it was just pot money, right?
Dana/cnw
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
__________________________________________________
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From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 4:21:54 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I do dump here a lot of the time and don’t spend my life taking any of what’s written here to heart but just to toss in my opinon without anger or cynicism.
I don’t have any interest in the battle of the stoner mags that Dana started up here.
My question or not even question but comment is for Preston and Patrick, who are two people who always defend legalizing everything and leaving people alone.
Patrick. You’ve got some problems. You’re also a genius. You have a entire string of companies you ran, you made history, you’re written into what, 30 books? more?, you’re brilliant. You know technology, you know all kinds of science, you can write, you are the shit dog. Except I can’t help but notice that you pulled that off for a while. Then all of it went down. You and Bruce had daddy’s lawyers from the Village Voice on your side, you won all your lawsuits, you all skated on felonies, you survived RICO charges, the FBI, all that, you had everything and then what happened. it just went black, you pulled the plug and each of you shot yourselves in the head in your own way and went down. Nobody needed to take you out, you did it yourselves.
You’ve risen from the dead, but. Have you ever thought what you might have been if you hadn’t spent half your life strung out? I’m not sure what that means, but I’m very sure both of you would be worth at least 200, 300 million. You’ve done a lot of damage. And towards the end there all that happened with Patrick on heroin was complete silence because you were too busy dealing drugs, ripping off companies, being a full time junkie to do anything else.
And your writing. You write a lot about heroin. To give you credit you write honestly. You know what I see a lot of there. Pain.
Preston. I don’t know as much about your life but I’d say exactly the same. Was it so great being a homeless person living on the streets and sleeping in the park? You are a great writer, you are prolific, you do drugwar, you write for High Times, you represent, you care about people and issues.
I never heard of anybody named Preston while your life revolved around heroin.
If both of you think heroin was so great, then tell me why you made such extreme effort to finally get it out of your life.
I don’t see pot doing that to anybody.
Compare hard and soft drugs however you want, throw out any fantasy of free heroin and legal access, heroin destroys lives. Neither one of you was among the living while you were junkies, no matter which way you want to add it back up or sell it to yourself.
The two of you and I’ll add a third bud of yours, Francis Moraes PHD, from Heroin Helper, who is another one of the brilliant junkie crew. What was he doing while he was on the love of his life. He was sitting in prison a lot. Now all he does is write live, breathe, eat, sleep, write about heroin. But he’s not doing any heroin either. See the pattern? I can’t miss it.
If all of you think it was so great, then why aren’t you still doing it.
That was my thoughtful response. Here’s the shorter one I’d usually post: bullshit.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:35:46 -0800 Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
Ouch.
Ok. I’m discussing this with my girlfriend, who points out
rather lucidly that while I was on dope full time, (before we were
a
couple), she felt like she had to babysit me when hanging out with
me. That can be rough, and she got tired of watching me screw myself
over and over, (but I was also doing speedballs, not just dope).
As
I wrote before, was he doing anything other than getting high,
or
methadone at least, for those 2 years?
Methadone worked for me, but obviously doesn’t work for anyone.
It does seem to have ruined my teeth though.
The trouble I find with trying to give advice is that we are
all
so very different, so what worked for me most probably won’t work
for your kid Marc.
Anyway, still hoping for the best for you both.
Peace,
Preston
Preston, with HIGH TIMES, NORML & Ethan Nadelman more or less
conspiring to Ibogaine a secret, doesn’t it seem like you’re just
following the party line in pushing for Marc to pay for his son’s
heroin?
Compare what Marc’s doing putting on an ibogaine seminar with Steve
Bloom saying we have to drop Ibogaine, or H.T. will no longer deal
with us.
Can imagine Steve Hager doing what Marc’s doing?
The reason the kid was justified in ripping off the $150,000 was
that
it was just pot money, right?
Dana/cnw
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 3:36:26 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
If Marc’s
kid insists that he wants to keep doing dope, THEN
and only then think about the idea of finding him a
safe source. REDUCE THE HARMS any way possible. Yes
indeed, here is what I wrote:
Sometimes it is the harms that bring people into
recovery (ouch that hurt so I will stop…). Sometimes
the patient is unwilling to “go with the program”.
Some people are in love (odd term for it) with the
problem, life-style, maybe they are hell-bent on
destroying themselves – I certainly have known
several. Maybe he has abandonment issues he is getting
even with the world over.
When I was in jail, there were those folks in there
who would get out and commit like 47 felonies in their
first 24 hours out – to get even with the system.
Point, just because you give someone all the things
they need (eg, to reduce harm by giving them free/pure
dope…), don’t mean they are going to reduce the harm
to themselves. How many addicts (or just people) out
there don’t follow the instructions on a prescription
bottle??? Eg don’t mix with alcohol or don’t drive –
they do it anyway. So, in Marc Jr’s case (not that I
know this), it just may be an opportunity for him to
take more dope. NOT THAT YOU ARE WRONG, just I don’t
think every case is every case AND seems Marc did just
about what you are suggesting (the “kid” was being
fed/sheltered/given an allowance, tried meth… tried
this, tried that, and now we are on the other thing –
ibo).
“And, as sacrilegious as it may sound, if he is
going to insist on remaining sprung, help him find a
relatively decent source to cop from. Reduce the
I did that with my brother once, that was when it went
from bad to worse. Good cheap drugs sometimes means
doing more good cheap drugs and getting in deeper. On
the bright side, maybe if I did’t turn him on to that
source (right down the block!), it wouldn’t have
gotten so bad and he wouldn’t have had to go into
treatment…
Funny though, I could just picture my MOM going out
and trying to find a good source of dope for me (as in
YOU ARE FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND – looking at it from
that perspective and do not mean to insult you/call
you names…).
It was not the first suggestion I made, nor is it a
suggestion I seriously expect very many people in
this day and age of prohibitionist hysteria, at
least on this continent, to accept, or one that
would be very easy to pull off. But it certainly
wouldn’t be impossible, especially if one has the
money to do it. What the hell is wrong with thinking
about the whole fucking picture?
Who’s picture from who’s perspective?
Anyway, again opiates themselves are NOT that bad
physically, absolutely NO DOUBT than the are because
of the junk in them, life-style involved,
illegality…
Why should Marc’s
kid have to wait until he gets off dope, or for that
matter, does ibogaine, to deserve whatever
reductions in harm are possible now, even if it be
illegal heroin maintenance? (BTW, though this may
have been covered here already, is ibogaine legal in
Canada? If not….)
Yes, ibogaine is legal in Canada and what do you mean
by “if not…..”? And to answer your question – SURE,
Marc JR and every addict/human/dog/cat deserves
whatever reductions in harm that are possible – that
does NOT however translate to reducing the harm to
Marc Jr (in 1:1) if you gave him what you suggest.
Also, it just isn’t that way at the moment, I can’t
run down to the corner drug store and get pure H for
free and have someone pay my bills while I shoot up
all day TILL (maybe) one day I decide to stop. Maybe
if that was offered to me, I would take up shooting up
dope – ever think of that (since you are on some
rather odd what if’s)
That’s cold for some to expect
and demand, which is what I got from Dana’s
response, though I suppose I could be putting words
into his mouth now. As “great” as ibogaine can be
for some in stopping withdrawal symptoms, once again
by this incident with Marc’s son we see that
ibogaine is not a cure for anything, but merely one
more tool amongst hundreds probably. Yeah, it might
work great at cutting withdrawals, but hey, if
someone thinks there’s a handy way, (through three
What 3 days tripping are you talking about? I have
NEVER had that experience with ibogaine. I was rocked
for 3 days, oozy and stuff but “tripping” myself never
more than 12 hours on high doses.
Have you ever done ibo, if not, might do you good – I
mean might help you understand it a little better <g>.
days of tripping granted, which can’t really be so
bad now can it considering the number of people on
this list who rave about it) to take their dope then
kick without kicking, why quit permanently? And
That thought I am sure has crossed some peoples minds.
No doubt with ANY detox method, addicts do it to
clean-up, reduce their need so they can just start all
over again (or whatever reason, they are going to
Court, need to piss clean for a new job…). I do know
someone who does pretty much what you suggest, so?
That does not mean everyone or a majority of people do
it, what you are saying is called “splitting hairs”.
considering the number of people I have now heard of
who tried ibogaine then went back to using more than
once, doesn’t anyone suspect that this might be
something to think about? Or is that too
In what respect should one think about it? It does
kind of sound like you are “spreading doubt” rather
than saying, “sure the stuff works but it isn’t a one
shot deal most of the time” (cept for detox AND often
a head start) – Soooo, think about that.
sacrilegious to think about and against the party
line, that not all people find themselves with
brains completely reset and lacking the desire to
use after ibogaine dosing, even sometimes
repeatedly, no matter how fresh and clear they are
after their ibogaine experiences?
And so what? What is your point? NO, it doesn’t work
for everyone, of course nothing does and IBOGAINE is
far better than anything else out there – unless of
course you disagree.
From what I have seen/read/felt ibogaine is like 80%+
effective in stopping drug addiction with repeated use
in patients who really want to give it up and do the
work. Because of some “use” you could re-calculate
that another way, it will reduce drug use by 80+%.
Some people consider me still to be a “user”, after
all I still take mind altering drugs (pain meds) on
occasion. Even in patients who are not really into
giving up drugs, it does still seem to work well as a
detox and you still get 20% long term recovery rates
in a single dose.
Tell me anything that comes close to those numbers?
Preston, I hear what you are saying but think you are
saying it a bit too loudly and applying it a bit too
broadly – from my perspective. ABSO-FUKEN-LUTELY, harm
will be reduced if the Drug War/probition was ended
and people could get good/clean, cheap dope – of that
I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that some people
will very readily kill themselves with good/clean,
cheap (or free) dope and there will be no reduced harm
– to them, just MORE GOOD/CLEAN/CHEAP/FREE/DOPE and
being supported till they die.
Dope is still dope, it ain’t pot. I gotta say, you do
certainly seem to have an agenda.
Brett
Sheeze.
End the War, harm reduction rules.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic
question for marc emery EDITING
— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:
Preston,
My take on it is if you gave Marc Jr all the dope
(clean/free and supported him) he wanted, he would
basically do nothing but lie there shooting the
stuff till he died. Another addict may become
“functional”, just as many do on methadone – and
many don’t…
Sure, good clean/free dope and someone supporting
your
habit will certainly stop many of the ills
associated
with opiate addiction – over all. Unfortunatly
this is
not how it is and all but impossible to do in the
current environment – it also will simply not work
for
everyone.
Any treatment has its place, be it MM, the 12
steps,
smoking pot/using softer drugs instead, ibogaine,
throw their asses in Jail and teach em a lesson,
JESES
LOVES YOU/yes he does, methadone or whatever. Any
of
those will work for some, none of them will work
for
all. It is IMO an error on our part to use our pet
brand of treatment (or whatever) as “the” answer,
addicts simply not respond the same way. Just as
it is
the WRONG method to satisfy all computing needs
using
MicroSoft products – it does not fit the needs of
all
clients – contrary to what many salesmen would
like
you to believe (and I am sure INTEL would be more
than
happy to go along with that since I can do 100
times
as much on a RISC processor running UNIX as I can
do
on a WIN-TEL box – so ya need more of em, just
like we
need more Jails to treat addicts, same difference,
neither solves the problem…). Sorry,, kind of a
techie thing Patrick would get for sure.
I was addicted to morphine (for pain). I got my
script
once a month (or longer, I forgot), took my 120mgs
a
day and was miserable on it – even after months to
get
“use” to it. So much for cheap clean dope being my
answer (it didn’t work with the oxycodone or
Dilaudid
either, or the pot OR NA/AA or jail or 7 treatment
centers, or…). Ibogaine worked for me if
anything
one thing did. It won’t work for all either EXCEPT
it
is in a class all its own as a detox agent and
slightly lagging behind that, removes
cravings/resets
a bunch of stuff – not that that stops an addict
from
getting high if they are bored on a Saturday
afternoon…
Brett
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
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From: Randywalker57@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] dana and whose party line?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 2:39:00 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Nick,
I am in Ohio. I may be able to help you. Please E-mail me if you
would like.
Randy
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] dana and whose party line?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 2:22:07 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Cc: “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi i’m a 23 year old heroin addict havent used in awihle but still
strung the fuck out on methadone.But hey the thing in H.T. 5 years
ago single handedly is responsible for making me aware of IBO.
Except the thing is none believes me i have a couple people slightly
interested at the meth clinic on *mile here in the beutiful city of
detroit. If it was cheaper i’d definetly have done it myself but i
aint got the loot until then i guess i’ll just settle for being a
slave.As most slaves do. Y.T.Nick in DET.
Nick:
Detroit is very important right now because of the option of opening
up a safe house/clinic in Windsor to do treatments. There’s been some
discussion with John Conyers, also. Are you in his district? There’s
a guy named Jay Statzer who’s trying to do something. He has a few
other contacts in Detroit. I’m cc’ing this to him.
Dana/cnw
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] dana and whose party line?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 1:52:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Dana Beal wrote:
I’m not going to give a long answer, Preston. We all know that
heroin trials are THE party line right now. Except for NORML and MPP,
who conveniently only deal with marijuana so ibogaine simply doesn’t
exist for them.
I don’t think it’s fair to criticise these organisations for focusing
their efforts. There are so many aspects that need work in fighting drug
prohibition, it would be counterproductive for one group to tackle all of
them. It is unfortunate that users of other drugs aren’t as well
represented as marijuana users, but i don’t think it’s appropriate to put
the blame for this on these organisations.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery EDITING
Date: November 4, 2002 at 1:41:43 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
>Any of
those will work for some, none of them will work for
all. It is IMO an error on our part to use our pet
brand of treatment (or whatever) as “the” answer,<
I’m in complete agreement. I could swear that what I wrote, in so many words anyway, was that if Marc’s kid insists that he wants to keep doing dope, THEN and only then think about the idea of finding him a safe source. REDUCE THE HARMS any way possible. Yes indeed, here is what I wrote:
“And, as sacrilegious as it may sound, if he is going to insist on remaining sprung, help him find a relatively decent source to cop from. Reduce the harms, but do not cut him out of your life. If he can get decent, clean, un-poisoned heroin, that’s better than poisoned dope that is often out on the streets. Heroin itself isn’t really all that physically bad for a person, other than for that pesky NEED, so better to help keep him as safe as possible while using, in my own humble opinion.”
It was not the first suggestion I made, nor is it a suggestion I seriously expect very many people in this day and age of prohibitionist hysteria, at least on this continent, to accept, or one that would be very easy to pull off. But it certainly wouldn’t be impossible, especially if one has the money to do it. What the hell is wrong with thinking about the whole fucking picture? Why should Marc’s kid have to wait until he gets off dope, or for that matter, does ibogaine, to deserve whatever reductions in harm are possible now, even if it be illegal heroin maintenance? (BTW, though this may have been covered here already, is ibogaine legal in Canada? If not….) That’s cold for some to expect and demand, which is what I got from Dana’s response, though I suppose I could be putting words into his mouth now. As “great” as ibogaine can be for some in stopping withdrawal symptoms, once again by this incident with Marc’s son we see that ibogaine is not a cure for anything, but merely one more tool amongst hundreds probably. Yeah, it might work great at cutting withdrawals, but hey, if someone thinks there’s a handy way, (through three days of tripping granted, which can’t really be so bad now can it considering the number of people on this list who rave about it) to take their dope then kick without kicking, why quit permanently? And considering the number of people I have now heard of who tried ibogaine then went back to using more than once, doesn’t anyone suspect that this might be something to think about? Or is that too sacrilegious to think about and against the party line, that not all people find themselves with brains completely reset and lacking the desire to use after ibogaine dosing, even sometimes repeatedly, no matter how fresh and clear they are after their ibogaine experiences?
Sheeze.
End the War, harm reduction rules.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Brett Calabrese
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery EDITING
— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:
Preston,
My take on it is if you gave Marc Jr all the dope
(clean/free and supported him) he wanted, he would
basically do nothing but lie there shooting the
stuff till he died. Another addict may become
“functional”, just as many do on methadone – and
many don’t…
Sure, good clean/free dope and someone supporting your
habit will certainly stop many of the ills associated
with opiate addiction – over all. Unfortunatly this is
not how it is and all but impossible to do in the
current environment – it also will simply not work for
everyone.
Any treatment has its place, be it MM, the 12 steps,
smoking pot/using softer drugs instead, ibogaine,
throw their asses in Jail and teach em a lesson, JESES
LOVES YOU/yes he does, methadone or whatever. Any of
those will work for some, none of them will work for
all. It is IMO an error on our part to use our pet
brand of treatment (or whatever) as “the” answer,
addicts simply not respond the same way. Just as it is
the WRONG method to satisfy all computing needs using
MicroSoft products – it does not fit the needs of all
clients – contrary to what many salesmen would like
you to believe (and I am sure INTEL would be more than
happy to go along with that since I can do 100 times
as much on a RISC processor running UNIX as I can do
on a WIN-TEL box – so ya need more of em, just like we
need more Jails to treat addicts, same difference,
neither solves the problem…). Sorry,, kind of a
techie thing Patrick would get for sure.
I was addicted to morphine (for pain). I got my script
once a month (or longer, I forgot), took my 120mgs a
day and was miserable on it – even after months to get
“use” to it. So much for cheap clean dope being my
answer (it didn’t work with the oxycodone or Dilaudid
either, or the pot OR NA/AA or jail or 7 treatment
centers, or…). Ibogaine worked for me if anything
one thing did. It won’t work for all either EXCEPT it
is in a class all its own as a detox agent and
slightly lagging behind that, removes cravings/resets
a bunch of stuff – not that that stops an addict from
getting high if they are bored on a Saturday
afternoon…
Brett
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
From: Nicholas Labus <goosebumpz2002@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] dana and whose party line?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 1:32:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
hi i’m a 23 year old heroin addict havent used in awihle but still
strung the fuck out on methadone.But hey the thing in H.T. 5 years
ago single handedly is responsible for making me aware of IBO.
Except the thing is none believes me i have a couple people slightly
interested at the meth clinic on *mile here in the beutiful city of
detroit. If it was cheaper i’d definetly have done it myself but i
aint got the loot until then i guess i’ll just settle for being a
slave.As most slaves do. Y.T.Nick in DET.
— Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org> wrote:
I’m not going to give a long answer, Preston. We all know that
heroin trials are THE party line right now. Except for NORML and
MPP,
who conveniently only deal with marijuana so ibogaine simply
doesn’t
exist for them.
H.T. hasn’t run a thing on Ibogaine for the last 5 years so far as
I know.
I admit to being bummed because I suspect H.T. is not supporting
the
Global Cannabis March 2003 due to my stubborn support of Ibogaine.
Dana/cnw
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] dana and whose party line?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 1:28:36 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I’m not going to give a long answer, Preston. We all know that
heroin trials are THE party line right now. Except for NORML and MPP,
who conveniently only deal with marijuana so ibogaine simply doesn’t
exist for them.
H.T. hasn’t run a thing on Ibogaine for the last 5 years so far as I know.
I admit to being bummed because I suspect H.T. is not supporting the
Global Cannabis March 2003 due to my stubborn support of Ibogaine.
Dana/cnw
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] dana and whose party line?
Date: November 4, 2002 at 12:48:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Preston, with HIGH TIMES, NORML & Ethan Nadelman more or less conspiring to Ibogaine a secret, doesn’t it seem like you’re just following the party line in pushing for Marc to pay for his son’s heroin?<
LOL, oh, no, actually, that should be slightly angry “Grrrr.”
No Dana. I do not tout nor push anyone’s line but my own so accept it or get over it. I’ve formed all my opinions of drugs in general all on my own from my reading, listening and experiencing, taking no party position whatsoever as near as I can tell. I’m not conspiring against ibogaine or anything but the War and all it’s associated bullshit. I strongly, most emphatically disagree with you and many people on just how bad and evil dope is, but that is my own thing, not HT’s nor anyone else’s position as near as I know, and if it was I couldn’t care less. (For that matter, I can’t ever once in the time I’ve been associated with them remember HT conspiring to keep ibogaine secret, and certainly not ever promoting heroin/dope use.) I long for the War on ALL DRUGS and users to end, all the prejudice, the hysteria, the people who should know better insisting that one drug habit is better than another, that they have the best answer(s), etc. Drives me up the fucking wall. My most fervent wish is that people in the situation where Marc’s son finds himself get the most out of life with the least unnecessary damage done them. Knowing that some people can need something that can be supplied by doing opiates, whatever that something is, I refuse to discriminate against someone for wanting to do opiates, regardless of whether I will trust them in my house or not, what with prohibition making so many of them so utterly desperate for no good god damned reason at all.
>Compare what Marc’s doing putting on an ibogaine seminar with Steve Bloom saying we have to drop Ibogaine, or H.T. will no longer deal with us.<
Dana, you have problems with some people at HT, obviously. HT has run a couple of pieces over the years about ibogaine, but hasn’t pushed any position other than pot is good as near as I can tell. Marc Emory can do as he likes, as can the folks at HT. There’s many avenues towards harm reduction, which in your never ending quest to bring legitimacy to ibogaine you seem to sometimes forget.
>Can imagine Steve Hager doing what Marc’s doing?<
Steve Hager is an editor of a magazine. Marc Emory, as far as I know, owns his own magazine and some shops, no? Regardless, what the fuck does it matter? Emory has a kid he doesn’t want addicted to heroin any longer. Hager doesn’t. Out of curiosity, was Emory supportive of ibogaine before his son became addicted to heroin?
Besides, I will not make silly unnecessary, unproductive comparisons of this nature that do nothing but stir up stress, trouble and tension between people who should be allies, not bickering amongst themselves like elementary school children who just can’t have their own way. Don’t drag me into bullshit like this Dana, it’s not worth it.
>The reason the kid was justified in ripping off the $150,000 was that it was just pot money, right?<
Oh, really? Is that what you think Dana? What the fuck are you talking about, as in, what do you mean by this? You can’t possibly be talking about something I said or wrote, ’cause that’d be too nutty. Did I ever say anyone was “justified” in ripping off anyone for anything? Anywhere ever Dana? Where do you get off putting words in my mouth if that is indeed what you’re trying to do here, and if it is, why in the hell would you? I’m seriously puzzled and bothered here, genuinely a bit peeved one might say, as I’m wishing to remain polite.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Ouch.
Ok. I’m discussing this with my girlfriend, who points out rather lucidly that while I was on dope full time, (before we were a couple), she felt like she had to babysit me when hanging out with me. That can be rough, and she got tired of watching me screw myself over and over, (but I was also doing speedballs, not just dope). As I wrote before, was he doing anything other than getting high, or methadone at least, for those 2 years?
Methadone worked for me, but obviously doesn’t work for anyone. It does seem to have ruined my teeth though.
The trouble I find with trying to give advice is that we are all so very different, so what worked for me most probably won’t work for your kid Marc.
Anyway, still hoping for the best for you both.
Peace,
Preston
Preston, with HIGH TIMES, NORML & Ethan Nadelman more or less conspiring to Ibogaine a secret, doesn’t it seem like you’re just following the party line in pushing for Marc to pay for his son’s heroin?
Compare what Marc’s doing putting on an ibogaine seminar with Steve Bloom saying we have to drop Ibogaine, or H.T. will no longer deal with us.
Can imagine Steve Hager doing what Marc’s doing?
The reason the kid was justified in ripping off the $150,000 was that it was just pot money, right?
Dana/cnw
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery EDITING
Date: November 4, 2002 at 11:58:00 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
— Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com> wrote:
Preston,
My take on it is if you gave Marc Jr all the dope
(clean/free and supported him) he wanted, he would
basically do nothing but lie there shooting the
stuff till he died. Another addict may become
“functional”, just as many do on methadone – and
many don’t…
Sure, good clean/free dope and someone supporting your
habit will certainly stop many of the ills associated
with opiate addiction – over all. Unfortunatly this is
not how it is and all but impossible to do in the
current environment – it also will simply not work for
everyone.
Any treatment has its place, be it MM, the 12 steps,
smoking pot/using softer drugs instead, ibogaine,
throw their asses in Jail and teach em a lesson, JESES
LOVES YOU/yes he does, methadone or whatever. Any of
those will work for some, none of them will work for
all. It is IMO an error on our part to use our pet
brand of treatment (or whatever) as “the” answer,
addicts simply not respond the same way. Just as it is
the WRONG method to satisfy all computing needs using
MicroSoft products – it does not fit the needs of all
clients – contrary to what many salesmen would like
you to believe (and I am sure INTEL would be more than
happy to go along with that since I can do 100 times
as much on a RISC processor running UNIX as I can do
on a WIN-TEL box – so ya need more of em, just like we
need more Jails to treat addicts, same difference,
neither solves the problem…). Sorry,, kind of a
techie thing Patrick would get for sure.
I was addicted to morphine (for pain). I got my script
once a month (or longer, I forgot), took my 120mgs a
day and was miserable on it – even after months to get
“use” to it. So much for cheap clean dope being my
answer (it didn’t work with the oxycodone or Dilaudid
either, or the pot OR NA/AA or jail or 7 treatment
centers, or…). Ibogaine worked for me if anything
one thing did. It won’t work for all either EXCEPT it
is in a class all its own as a detox agent and
slightly lagging behind that, removes cravings/resets
a bunch of stuff – not that that stops an addict from
getting high if they are bored on a Saturday
afternoon…
Brett
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for Preston
Date: November 4, 2002 at 11:20:21 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>How do we do that without making contact with him? <
Perhaps Marc will pass on the concerns and thoughts for us.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: AndriaE@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for Preston
How do we do that without making contact with him? He’s in Ontario/London; I’d happily send him some support and User Mags, but have no idea where he is..
Preston, U got a huge heart; maybe i just don’t believe in heroin enough, but yeh as a prison & poisoned-dope prevention strategy, I’d keep it up as long as.. U gotta be an affluent parent to keep that up for any length of time…
That film-maker gals Mom did that for a while: must ask her if she can recall how long. They were fairly-loaded; in my house, tink most of the $ went on my F+Dads addictions!
love and stuff
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 10:35:46 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ouch.
Ok. I’m discussing this with my girlfriend, who points out rather lucidly that while I was on dope full time, (before we were a couple), she felt like she had to babysit me when hanging out with me. That can be rough, and she got tired of watching me screw myself over and over, (but I was also doing speedballs, not just dope). As I wrote before, was he doing anything other than getting high, or methadone at least, for those 2 years?
Methadone worked for me, but obviously doesn’t work for anyone. It does seem to have ruined my teeth though.
The trouble I find with trying to give advice is that we are all so very different, so what worked for me most probably won’t work for your kid Marc.
Anyway, still hoping for the best for you both.
Peace,
Preston
Preston, with HIGH TIMES, NORML & Ethan Nadelman more or less conspiring to Ibogaine a secret, doesn’t it seem like you’re just following the party line in pushing for Marc to pay for his son’s heroin?
Compare what Marc’s doing putting on an ibogaine seminar with Steve Bloom saying we have to drop Ibogaine, or H.T. will no longer deal with us.
Can imagine Steve Hager doing what Marc’s doing?
The reason the kid was justified in ripping off the $150,000 was that it was just pot money, right?
Dana/cnw
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for Preston
Date: November 4, 2002 at 10:32:23 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Preston, everyone
Can’t help feeling that your suggestion to Marc is a little naive. If you had a son, would U buy his h for him? IAnyways, he has bogged off to Ontario now! I REALLY C where U r coming from Preston, and if I was an affluent parent, I might try your strategy for a while an’ anyways, but I think even the most dedicated parent might give up on that one after a bit.. protecting your child from the prison system is caring & noble, but watching their lives fall apart cos they are dedicated to H is another thing..
One more thing: I’m beginning to feel this discussion about Emery Jnr is a red- herring. Sadly, he’s taken off again, both literally (to another City) and into h haze/protection.. Why don’t we just say a prayer (or whatever it is U do) for him in our hearts, and let him go for ther time-being? What more can any of us do, including Marc (who is, in any case, doing loads for many other young addict users..)
Just some thoughts for consideration.
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
In London, Ontario? Just hope that he doesn’t get shot, like this family dog–
www.marijuanareform.org
Pubdate: Fri, 25 Oct 2002
Source: London Free Press (CN ON)
Copyright: 2002 The London Free Press a division of Sun Media Corporation.
Contact: letters@lfpress.com
Website: http://www.fyilondon.com/londonfreepress/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/243
Author: Kelly Pedro
DOG SHOT IN BOTCHED DRUG RAID
London police shot and killed a family dog after a botched drug raid on the
wrong apartment Wednesday.
Police Chief Brian Collins has launched a full investigation to determine
how the mistake was made.
“He’s my lifeline,” Marcie Carroll said of her six-year-old dog, Bear.
Carroll, 22, said she is unable to have children and Bear, a German
Shepherd and Lab cross, was her son.
“He’s as important to me as anyone’s child and now he’s gone.
“How are you supposed to trust the police? If I jumped in front of him,
would I get shot, too?” she asked through tears.
URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1998.a01.html
Pubdate: Thu, 31 Oct 2002
Source: London Free Press (CN ON)
Copyright: 2002 The London Free Press a division of Sun Media Corporation.
Contact: letters@lfpress.com
Website: http://www.fyilondon.com/londonfreepress/
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/243
Author: Michelle Pitt-Hyde
Referenced: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n1998/a01.html
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/raids.htm (Drug Raids)
DETAILS HORRIFYING IN KILLING OF DOG
I am horrified about the information I have read thus far about the actions
of our police when they killed Marcie Carroll’s dog, Bear.
It appears to me a likely scenario may have involved police breaking into
an apartment, a family pet understandably making some effort to defend its
home, the police kicking the dog (dog missing teeth), the dog running away
and being shot from behind.
If this was the case, police should be accountable for their reprehensible
conduct.
Michelle Pitt-Hyde
London
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for Preston
Date: November 4, 2002 at 9:33:49 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
How do we do that without making contact with him? He’s in Ontario/London; I’d happily send him some support and User Mags, but have no idea where he is..
Preston, U got a huge heart; maybe i just don’t believe in heroin enough, but yeh as a prison & poisoned-dope prevention strategy, I’d keep it up as long as.. U gotta be an affluent parent to keep that up for any length of time…
That film-maker gals Mom did that for a while: must ask her if she can recall how long. They were fairly-loaded; in my house, tink most of the $ went on my F+Dads addictions!
love and stuff
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for Preston
Date: November 4, 2002 at 9:21:32 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>If you had a son, would U buy his h for him? <
I personally think that I am definitely not a naive person, especially on this topic dear Andria.
Yes, if I thought it would keep him away from the worst that prohibition has to offer, such as buying street dope from hoods who cut it full of god only knows what, and away from asshole, evil, dangerous prohibitionist cops and prison rapists. I happen to be under the impression that if a person can be supplied with their dope without all the freakin prohibition dangers use currently involves they’d no longer have to “dedicate” their lives to it, no more than does a diabetic to insulin anyway, so why should their lives “fall apart?” Going to prison will definitely tear up a life, but doing dope everyday won’t necessarily, even under prohibition, though obviously abuse of it often does. It would be necessary for them to have it but no longer a overwhelming, time consuming hassle. Having done a LOT of reading about heroin/opiates, (and expe4ienced a number of forms as well personally) I tend to think that heroin/opiates are one of the safer family of substances that my child could be doing if they think they need a drug/drugs of that nature. I’d MUCH rather them do any kind of opiates than any synthetic pharamceutical on the market today regardless of the reason. Therefore, as a parent, my job would be to try and make sure my child has the best chance for a life without all the extra bullshit, even addicted to dope. So, if I thought I could get him a good source, one that was relatively safe and cop free, yep, you bet your ass I’d buy my son dope. I’d also let him know I was there when he might think he needed/wanted to stop using and most importantly would stay involved in his life as much as my son would let me. Of course, not having kids nor planning on ever haing kids, this is quite easy for me to say. Perhaps I’d feel differently if I did have children, but I doubt it. If my kid insisted he wanted/needed to do dope, I’d rather my kid do dope as safely as possible than risk overdose and prison rape.
>Why don’t we just say a prayer (or whatever it is U do) for him in our hearts<
continuously.
>What more can any of us do, including Marc (who is, in any case, doing loads for many other young addict users..)<
Let him (Emory Jr.) know that there are people who care, who understand what he’s going through, and are not judging him as bad, evil, or even wrong for what he’s doing. Courting much danger by his actions yes, but not wrong, crazy or bad. That he doesn’t have to be alone, wallowing in guilt, sorrow, or any of the myriad other nasty feelings that crop up after a relapse and everyone is telling the relapser, (I hate the word) how fucked up and worthless they are for being a junky.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: AndriaE@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for Preston
Dear Preston, everyone
Can’t help feeling that your suggestion to Marc is a little naive. If you had a son, would U buy his h for him? IAnyways, he has bogged off to Ontario now! I REALLY C where U r coming from Preston, and if I was an affluent parent, I might try your strategy for a while an’ anyways, but I think even the most dedicated parent might give up on that one after a bit.. protecting your child from the prison system is caring & noble, but watching their lives fall apart cos they are dedicated to H is another thing..
One more thing: I’m beginning to feel this discussion about Emery Jnr is a red- herring. Sadly, he’s taken off again, both literally (to another City) and into h haze/protection.. Why don’t we just say a prayer (or whatever it is U do) for him in our hearts, and let him go for ther time-being? What more can any of us do, including Marc (who is, in any case, doing loads for many other young addict users..)
Just some thoughts for consideration.
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 4, 2002 at 8:01:56 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Hattie
Just to letcha know U r a star as usual! You’re a little encourager, dat’s whatch ya are
Also, our MC meeting is Nov 21st in London, so PLEASE keep that evening free.
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] guy fawlkes
Date: November 4, 2002 at 7:58:35 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Mmh, I gotta admit that I was mostly truanting or high in class when I should have been learning about Guy Fawkes.. only thing I know for certain is that he conspired to blow up the houses of parliament..
Sorry..
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for Preston
Date: November 4, 2002 at 7:52:19 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Preston, everyone
Can’t help feeling that your suggestion to Marc is a little naive. If you had a son, would U buy his h for him? IAnyways, he has bogged off to Ontario now! I REALLY C where U r coming from Preston, and if I was an affluent parent, I might try your strategy for a while an’ anyways, but I think even the most dedicated parent might give up on that one after a bit.. protecting your child from the prison system is caring & noble, but watching their lives fall apart cos they are dedicated to H is another thing..
One more thing: I’m beginning to feel this discussion about Emery Jnr is a red- herring. Sadly, he’s taken off again, both literally (to another City) and into h haze/protection.. Why don’t we just say a prayer (or whatever it is U do) for him in our hearts, and let him go for ther time-being? What more can any of us do, including Marc (who is, in any case, doing loads for many other young addict users..)
Just some thoughts for consideration.
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 4, 2002 at 7:18:14 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
on 11/2/02 12:27 AM, Dana Beal at dana@cures-not-wars.org wrote:
You know the first person I treated went back to heroin two days later! However she had been scoring 300ml of methadone a day for her and her boyfriend(who had a lesser habit than her), and she stopped the methadone and was just using heroin. She then wanted to retreat a month later and unfortunately said it hadn’t worked as well for her the second time round and I think she started using pretty much as soon as she could following treatment (24 hours). I had regarded this case as somewhat of a failure as I later heard that she was using methadone again. However a year later I got a phonecall from the girl who was thoroughly over-excited and wanted to share her enthusiasm and joie de vivre with me. She had reduced her dose of methadone to 5ml a day and had had a very healthy baby girl and was over the moon. She was ringing to thank me as she said that even though ibogaine didn’t work immediately it changed something in her and set her on the road to recovery. She is happy to maintain a 5ml a day habit.
So even if you don’t see the results immediately, it is amazing work you are doing and somewhere in the users subconscious something is changing. Don’t give up.
The other thing I would say is that I found that with experience there were certain things I could offer, and the treatments seemed to get more successful.
Good luck and don’t be disheartened, just be vigilant about them getting follow up care.
Hattie
Well, there are setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and went and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each treatment costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’ to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person, treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
I would say ditto to most of what Nic and Mundo are saying. But didn’t you say at the time of yr son’s first treatment that you expected this? Howard Lotsof says more than one treatment is the norm.
I think a support group of folks who have been treated should be put in charge of re-treatments, so the effort at least would be on their part. From our point of view, Marc, ibo is a useful adjunct to market separation of pot and hard drugs– a way to keep hard drugs from completely saturating the pot scene, especially the med mar scene.
And yes, I think they’ll respect it more if they have to pay for it, even at subsidized prices. You gotta pay the Bwiti.
Dana/cnw
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] Fw: [Spy News] BANNED: Lebanon: Jumblatt urges ‘medicinal’ rethink on banned narcotics
Date: November 4, 2002 at 5:22:46 AM EST
To: <drugwar@mindvox.com>
Cc: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Mario Profaca
To: [Spy News]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:28 AM
Subject: [Spy News] BANNED: Lebanon: Jumblatt urges ‘medicinal’ rethink on
banned narcotics
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/04_11_02/art17.asp
Jumblatt urges ‘medicinal’ rethink on banned crops
Chouf MP Walid Jumblatt has called for legalizing poppy cultivation, but
only for medicinal purposes.
Speaking during a political rally on Saturday in the Bekaa town of
Saadnayel, the Druze leader said he was open to the idea of using currently
banned narcotics, such as opium and hashish, for “medical” purposes.
“I favor reopening the debate on banned crops,” Jumblatt said before an
audience that included farmers and Agriculture Minister Ali Abdullah.
Jumblatt, the president of the Progressive Socialist Party, cited the
example of Turkey, which allows illegal crops for their use in the
manufacture of pharmaceutical products.
The rally, organized by PSP supporters in the Bekaa, was also attended by
Deputy Speaker Elie Ferzli, Zahle MPs Mohsen Dalloul and Mohammed Ali Mais
and Western Bekaa-Rashaya MP Mahmoud Abu Hamdan.
Jumblatt also said that ending subsidies on agricultural crops, as required
by the World Bank, “would lead to an exodus from rural areas to the cities.”
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From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re: [ibogaine]guy fawlkes (sp?)
Date: November 4, 2002 at 5:20:33 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
My understanding was that Guy Fawkes tried or did blow up a boat in Boston Harbour loaded with tea from Britain. Otherwise called the Boston Tea Party. It had to do with finances, imports etc. I was hoping Andria might answer this query as I might have got it a bit wrong being a colonial and all. Allison
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Monday, 4 November 2002 11:55
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) Re: [ibogaine]guy fawlkes (sp?)
HE tried to blow up the Parliament way back when. I believe he was hung for it, but could be mistaken on that one.
Andria? More info please?
peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Jon Freedlander
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
> most americans do not know who Guy Fawlkes (sp?) is, so no, no fireworks.
> more on the rest in a few minutes.
Wasn’t he in a James Joyce novel, or am i just talking out of my ass?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] there are no idiotic questions, even for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 5:03:04 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Its so much better to be around loving and straight people when trying to get things together. You definitely need other things to think of and take interest in. Also being around straight people rather than other addicts resets that idea of normal or not normal. If everyone is doing what you do, most people consider that normal but that depends on the people around you don’t you think.?? So much is in the mind as well as the physical effects. Kind of like food culture where one group can’t see any problem with eating horse meat or whatever and on the other side people think it appaling. It’s a conditioning to a certain degree. If you hang out with a particular group all the time your mind justifies that as normal and OK. I know when I was using it was never an issue that it was illegal cos we were all doing it so openly in our homes that it became a way of life. It was only when someone from outside that culture walked in that anyone thought about what they were doing. Any one else want to comment???? Allison ps I’ve gone back to studying at university at 42 and also swim as much as I can again and am really enjoying life that I put on hold for ages. plus its great being involved with so many different people with different ideas etc. Feel like my brain is trying to make up for lost time and cram lots in and my daughter and dogs love me so much more.
—–Original Message—–
From: preston peet <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Monday, 4 November 2002 21:39
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] there are no idiotic questions, even for marc emery
>Candidly, I find your question idiotic, but I’ve answered it briefly
nonetheless.<
Sigh.
Sad story. Prohibition sucks. Hard to deal with an addict who has to have dope/whatever, even if they only think that in their own minds.
I guess “idiocy” resides in the mind of the beholder, but from my end, there are no stupid questions including this one, so thanks for taking the time to sort of answer this one.
Can you give him money to supply his need? I mean, you are paying for the ibogaine, right? Harm reduce man, harm reduce. Put him to work doing something that has nothing to do with operating heavy machinery, and allow him to score. Yep, maybe this sounds awful and even perhaps counterproductive (idiotic?) from your point of view, but all that you described about ill health effects, well, living on the streets trying to make up enough money to score every day because your family or other “normal” people won’t talk to you except to constantly tell you how bad and wrong and evil dope is will do that to a person. Engage him as a person, even while he’s ripped to the tits on smack. (I know, it’s hard to engage anyone drooling off in a nod, but still…gotta try.)
>(even while I
paid his rent, food & gave him an allowance the last 2 years)<
Oh, didn’t see this bit. Was he working for that allowance? Was he engaged in anything else other than doing dope? Was he lying about doing dope all those 2 years, trying to hide it? Or were you enabling him without any strings? You know, giving him room and board and then pretty much ignoring him? This is a tough question actually, and I’m curious to hear how you dealt with his using for 2 years even while giving him housing, money and other stuff. Guess he’s already gone the methadone route too, if I’m remembering correctly.
I feel for you, and for him way more, truely I do. I don’t have any more advice, just sadness and frustration to hear about your troubles. Best wishes.
Peace,
Preston
“When the imagination is continually lead
to the brink of vice by a system of terror
and denunciations, people fling themselves
over the precipice from the mere dread of falling.”-
Sir Thomas Brown
—– Original Message —–
From: MARC
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] My answer for the idiotic question for marc emery
While my son has been a heroin/methadone addict, he has lost all his lower
teeth, tried to kill himself, ignored vital health deficiencies in himself
and his addicted girlfriend, cannot function to do any task (this is the son
that worked behind my store counter at age 10 and could make change for
customers calculating in his head), including very simple ones, while on
heroin or methadone, he usually smelled bad and looked dirty (even while I
paid his rent, food & gave him an allowance the last 2 years), was getting
beat up all the time by fellow addicts (who, of course, were the only people
who befriend/associate with addicts), he looked sallow and pale, like a
concentration camp inmate.
His death always seemed imminent, and I believe it will be unless he kicks.
In the period after ibogaine, he looked robust and healthy by day 20, a
fabulous transformation. He was calm, thoughtful, polite, not angry, which
was his state of mind (usually) since I adopted him at age 8 (he was
abandoned by his father). And then he scored heroin 10 days ago, after 28
days of being opiate free (and withdrawl free), and now he is on the street
somewhere in London, Ontario.
Believe me, I think of his condition every day, as I have of course,
throughout his drug addiction, about what terrible thing can happen to him
next.
Candidly, I find your question idiotic, but I’ve answered it briefly
nonetheless.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 10:57 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
> Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
>
> I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
>
> What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
>
> Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
> Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
>
>
From: “Alison Senepart” <aa.senepart@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 4:50:12 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Am trying to get thoughts in order here. I don’t think I know any one who
is or has been an addict that has been able to kick it and go straight after
one attempt and for most, speaking for myself and those I know its takes
lots of times. Every time you try to get clean it takes so much out of you
and the older you get and the more you have used the worse the sickness.
Guess the body can only take so much??
I can only say I’ve hidden in bed feeling like shit, sweating, dirty etc.
etc. a lot more times than once. Sometimes now, that is what pulls me up
when I’m tempted to use. I was probably lucky cos my partner helped look
after me and also a good girl friend which helped lots. Neither of them
gave up on me when I lapsed and I will always appreciate them for that.
Addicts don’t mean to be bad and hurt people and they usually hurt
themselves as well. If someone wants to try thats a good start but don’t
expect too much all at once. As for smoking dope. I don’t know anybody who
goes through the pain of withdrawal that opiate addicts do when they can’t
get enough dope. Dope does nothing for me, as someone else said it just
makes me want to curl up in a corner and sleep etc. Everyone has a
different reaction to dope whereas with heroin the results seem to be the
same after time. That might all sound a bit garbled but hope you can make
some sense out of it. Allison
—–Original Message—–
From: Richard Davis <rjd1966@lycos.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Date: Monday, 4 November 2002 07:58
Subject: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative messages
and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one lifestyle
choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to be very
open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I know the
whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine as a step
in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone taking heroin
turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is high on pot all
day is all right.
Thank you.
__________________________________________________________
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 4:02:27 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Ouch.
Ok. I’m discussing this with my girlfriend, who points out rather lucidly that while I was on dope full time, (before we were a couple), she felt like she had to babysit me when hanging out with me. That can be rough, and she got tired of watching me screw myself over and over, (but I was also doing speedballs, not just dope). As I wrote before, was he doing anything other than getting high, or methadone at least, for those 2 years?
Methadone worked for me, but obviously doesn’t work for anyone. It does seem to have ruined my teeth though.
The trouble I find with trying to give advice is that we are all so very different, so what worked for me most probably won’t work for your kid Marc.
Anyway, still hoping for the best for you both.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: MARC
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 6:40 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Oh, also, while on heroin, my son stole upwards of $150,000 worth of goods
from stores in a 9 month period, was incarcerated for 3 months, and then
released into my care where I agreed to pay rent/food/clothes for him for 2
years (and that of his girlfriend) so he would stop stealing for smack. He
was on methadone. He stopped stealing, but his life/health spiralled
downward at a perhaps even faster rate.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 10:57 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
> Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
>
> I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
>
> What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
>
> Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
> Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
>
>
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] there are no idiotic questions, even for marc emery
Date: November 4, 2002 at 3:35:34 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Candidly, I find your question idiotic, but I’ve answered it briefly
nonetheless.<
Sigh.
Sad story. Prohibition sucks. Hard to deal with an addict who has to have dope/whatever, even if they only think that in their own minds.
I guess “idiocy” resides in the mind of the beholder, but from my end, there are no stupid questions including this one, so thanks for taking the time to sort of answer this one.
Can you give him money to supply his need? I mean, you are paying for the ibogaine, right? Harm reduce man, harm reduce. Put him to work doing something that has nothing to do with operating heavy machinery, and allow him to score. Yep, maybe this sounds awful and even perhaps counterproductive (idiotic?) from your point of view, but all that you described about ill health effects, well, living on the streets trying to make up enough money to score every day because your family or other “normal” people won’t talk to you except to constantly tell you how bad and wrong and evil dope is will do that to a person. Engage him as a person, even while he’s ripped to the tits on smack. (I know, it’s hard to engage anyone drooling off in a nod, but still…gotta try.)
>(even while I
paid his rent, food & gave him an allowance the last 2 years)<
Oh, didn’t see this bit. Was he working for that allowance? Was he engaged in anything else other than doing dope? Was he lying about doing dope all those 2 years, trying to hide it? Or were you enabling him without any strings? You know, giving him room and board and then pretty much ignoring him? This is a tough question actually, and I’m curious to hear how you dealt with his using for 2 years even while giving him housing, money and other stuff. Guess he’s already gone the methadone route too, if I’m remembering correctly.
I feel for you, and for him way more, truely I do. I don’t have any more advice, just sadness and frustration to hear about your troubles. Best wishes.
Peace,
Preston
“When the imagination is continually lead
to the brink of vice by a system of terror
and denunciations, people fling themselves
over the precipice from the mere dread of falling.”-
Sir Thomas Brown
—– Original Message —–
From: MARC
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] My answer for the idiotic question for marc emery
While my son has been a heroin/methadone addict, he has lost all his lower
teeth, tried to kill himself, ignored vital health deficiencies in himself
and his addicted girlfriend, cannot function to do any task (this is the son
that worked behind my store counter at age 10 and could make change for
customers calculating in his head), including very simple ones, while on
heroin or methadone, he usually smelled bad and looked dirty (even while I
paid his rent, food & gave him an allowance the last 2 years), was getting
beat up all the time by fellow addicts (who, of course, were the only people
who befriend/associate with addicts), he looked sallow and pale, like a
concentration camp inmate.
His death always seemed imminent, and I believe it will be unless he kicks.
In the period after ibogaine, he looked robust and healthy by day 20, a
fabulous transformation. He was calm, thoughtful, polite, not angry, which
was his state of mind (usually) since I adopted him at age 8 (he was
abandoned by his father). And then he scored heroin 10 days ago, after 28
days of being opiate free (and withdrawl free), and now he is on the street
somewhere in London, Ontario.
Believe me, I think of his condition every day, as I have of course,
throughout his drug addiction, about what terrible thing can happen to him
next.
Candidly, I find your question idiotic, but I’ve answered it briefly
nonetheless.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 10:57 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
> Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
>
> I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
>
> What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
>
> Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
> Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
>
>
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 10:57:46 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Goes like this for me anyway. The law and current
“atmosphere” aside…
If it is a problem I don’t do it.
If it is not a problem and I want to do it, I do.
Pretty obviously (to me) Marc’s son has a problem
(with dope). I don’t think if he did dope and it
didn’t have any major negative impact we would be
here. What I got out of the question was it was more
of a MORAL question, which is morally bad (pot vs H)
and that is not the issue at all. HE IS FUCKED UP ON
DOPE, not POT and pot is much more of a minor issue
(and self limiting)if it does become a problem – it
just cannot get anywhere near the same levels of
problems that dope (or crack, coke, meth, benzo’s,
barb’s, alcohol…) can. It is the nature of the BEAST
as well as the nature of the person using the
substance. I NEVER had much of a problem with H though
I did it (A LOT!) and was NEVER physically addicted to
it, COKE absolutely a problem, other opiates (except
Dilaudid) not much of a problem – was even physically
addicted to several for pain and stopped very easily,
alcohol OH YEAH, pot I certainly over-did when I was
younger and it was a problem for me – back then,
tobacco not any longer <g>, ibogaine I couldn’t have a
problem with if I tried (there goes that wave of
nausea again…).
IMVHO of course.
Brett
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 7:24:52 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/3/02 5:36:28 PM, jfreed1@umbc.edu writes:
Wasn’t he in a James Joyce novel, or am i just talking out of my ass?
He attempted to blow up the Brittish Parliament and was executed for his
consideration of that.
Howard
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] November 2 Iboga seminar in Vancouver
Date: November 3, 2002 at 7:13:09 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Saturday November 2 I held a seminar that attracted 20 – 25 health care
professionally, addicts representatives, other interested parties,
feauturing acupuncturist Nelson Corinchi from San Francisco. The CBC radio
News and CKNW radio covered the event with interviews. The seminar will be
shown in segments on POT-TV, as well as an hour long interview with the
first person I sent to Amsterdam to get iboga therapy from Sara Glatt, is
currently on the site right now. (POT-TV.net) . The interview with Sascha is
excellent in that is showed me and the viewer how difficult a winding road
addiction & recovery is.
That having been said, we are taking on more patients, getting our permanent
facility ready, tens of thousands of dollars worth of ads have been bought
for the next two weeks that feature iboga therapy as “A revolutionary new
hope in addiction therapy.”
in my campaign for Mayor of Vancouver.
And I am no longer depressed about relapsing, but determined to add of our
light to the sum of light, and hope some of it sticks!
Marc Emery
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (OT) Re: [ibogaine]guy fawlkes (sp?)
Date: November 3, 2002 at 6:54:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
He did indeed try to blow up the Houses of parliament, but these firworks are just an excuse to have a visual orgasm, (not to mention give ol’ biuddies like me) a minor heart attack!
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] My answer for the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 6:35:41 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
While my son has been a heroin/methadone addict, he has lost all his lower
teeth, tried to kill himself, ignored vital health deficiencies in himself
and his addicted girlfriend, cannot function to do any task (this is the son
that worked behind my store counter at age 10 and could make change for
customers calculating in his head), including very simple ones, while on
heroin or methadone, he usually smelled bad and looked dirty (even while I
paid his rent, food & gave him an allowance the last 2 years), was getting
beat up all the time by fellow addicts (who, of course, were the only people
who befriend/associate with addicts), he looked sallow and pale, like a
concentration camp inmate.
His death always seemed imminent, and I believe it will be unless he kicks.
In the period after ibogaine, he looked robust and healthy by day 20, a
fabulous transformation. He was calm, thoughtful, polite, not angry, which
was his state of mind (usually) since I adopted him at age 8 (he was
abandoned by his father). And then he scored heroin 10 days ago, after 28
days of being opiate free (and withdrawl free), and now he is on the street
somewhere in London, Ontario.
Believe me, I think of his condition every day, as I have of course,
throughout his drug addiction, about what terrible thing can happen to him
next.
Candidly, I find your question idiotic, but I’ve answered it briefly
nonetheless.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 10:57 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
Thank you.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Second part to the idiotic question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 6:40:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Oh, also, while on heroin, my son stole upwards of $150,000 worth of goods
from stores in a 9 month period, was incarcerated for 3 months, and then
released into my care where I agreed to pay rent/food/clothes for him for 2
years (and that of his girlfriend) so he would stop stealing for smack. He
was on methadone. He stopped stealing, but his life/health spiralled
downward at a perhaps even faster rate.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 10:57 AM
Subject: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
Thank you.
__________________________________________________________
Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] (OT) Re: [ibogaine]guy fawlkes (sp?)
Date: November 3, 2002 at 5:54:04 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
HE tried to blow up the Parliament way back when. I believe he was hung for it, but could be mistaken on that one.
Andria? More info please?
peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Jon Freedlander
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
> most americans do not know who Guy Fawlkes (sp?) is, so no, no fireworks.
> more on the rest in a few minutes.
Wasn’t he in a James Joyce novel, or am i just talking out of my ass?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract administration
Date: November 3, 2002 at 5:51:18 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Anybody on this list heard from Paul Jackamo lately? He’s not been on the list and now his e-mail’s not working
Any of U got any other contact details for him?
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 5:47:38 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
Speaking as someone who has had personal experience with one form of opiate or another for one heck of a long time, and on some functioned fine and others not so fine, I tend to highly disagree that heroin in and of itself turns people into non-functional thieves Dana.
While heroin in and of itself may not cause this, it is an undeniable fact
that significantly more people who use heroin end up with severe
functional difficulties than do people who use cannabis.
Perhaps this is in part due to the socio-legal status of heroin; but pot
is also illegal, so why don’t you see pot users stealing, etc for pot?
The reason is, as someone, i think Dana, had said before, the
physiological nature of the two drugs. Yes, it is true that some marijuana
users become dependent, and some heroin users do not; but these are not
usual cases.
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“John Walters is a pathetic drug-war soul who is defending a whole
catalog of horrors he’s indifferent to.”
–John Sperling
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 5:36:03 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, preston peet wrote:
most americans do not know who Guy Fawlkes (sp?) is, so no, no fireworks.
more on the rest in a few minutes.
Wasn’t he in a James Joyce novel, or am i just talking out of my ass?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
“If you can read this, you’re not the President.”
From: Jon Freedlander <jfreed1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Scheduling of Ibogaine in the U.K.
Date: November 3, 2002 at 5:34:20 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, Dana Beal wrote:
3 is better than 1. I am reliably informed moves are underway to
re-schedule ibo from 1 to 2 or 3 in the U.S.
Really?? That’s incredible news!
Do you have any more info on that? or is it still too hush-hush? =)
__________________________________________________________________________
Jon Freedlander userpages.umbc.edu/~jfreed1
Consulting Editor
Journal of Drug Education and Awareness
http://www.novapublishers.com/journals/drugawareness.html
– –
————————————————————————–
It’s not a war on drugs; it’s a war on people.
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 5:12:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Of course not every junkie is a thief. Some just nag you until you give them twenty dollars.<
You’ve got a big heart Dana. Very sorry to hear about current 9 Bleecker St. eviction troubles.
>To be ripped off by the people one’s trying to help–because to their cynical minds it’s more important that they get their drugs than that money be wasted on radical posturing which won’t change anything anyway– is quite depressing.<
Cynical minds? Dana, if they are genuinely addicted to opiates, it isn’t cynisism, it’s need. Supply that need it removes that desperation entirely. It’s the rare person who has to supply that need on a daily basis without fear and stress about where do they get their supply, hence the rarity of dope addicted workers that I personally know in reform. As much as I’m for maintinence I don’t hang out with many dope addicts facing the desperations of scoring under these days of prohibition.
Peace,
Preston
My point exactly. You couldn’t afford it.
It is that desperate need that fosters the cynicism, since they tend to show up here having burned their bridges elsewhere.
Danac/cnw
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: [ibogaine] Re: Thank U Dana
Date: November 3, 2002 at 4:45:58 PM EST
To: AndriaE@aol.com
Cc: damnrobrob@yahoo.com, narda@lifefood.com, julia@sacreddance.org, julia@drugpeace.org, brazilsteve@hotmail.com, dansmith@clark.net, lensman@stardrive.org, hward@wineshopper.com, daniel@breakingopenthehead.com, Mark@k-dunn.freeserve.co.uk, IMDJam@cs.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net, Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk, gschwart@u.arizona.edu, e-merrill2@ti.com, “Bob Ezergailis” <morpheal@bserv.com>, “cynthia ford” <maruta@wco.com>, “G. G. Ford” <swimp@shaw.ca>, <brumac@compuserve.com>, <yokatta@oxy.edu>, <kklingon@cwcom.net>, <cyrano@aqua.ocn.ne.jp>, “Adrian” <afme@ihug.co.nz>, dewatson@sunflower.com, CloudRider@aol.com, JagdishM@aol.com, phylegyas@hotmail.com, schwann@webtrance.co.za, ibogalab@hotmail.com, zentarot@hotmail.com, Paul DeRienzo <pdr@echonyc.com>, Stews@radiks.net, foozleman@worldnet.att.net, bmasel@tds.net, heff01@email.msn.com, kingfelix@mediaone.net, PTPEET@cs.com, luxefair@bellsouth.net, cardboard_dada@yahoo.com, prophets@maui.net, m.pilkington@virgin.net, PCLARK@JJHILL.ORG, delaneyw@shasta.com, Edward Jahn <ejahn@barnard.edu>, derlock@mailexcite.com, “Andre Welling” <andre.welling@db.com>, Mitchel Cohen <mitchelcohen@mindspring.com>, “MUTANEX Command HAWAI’I” <mutanex@aloha.net>, miriamwhite420@hotmail.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com, Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@virgin.net>, George Clayton Johnson <hempjack@earthlink.net>, axiom@greatmystery.org, dancegroove@nyc.rr.com, “warcry@indymedia.org” <warcrycinema@yahoo.com>, “Jay Statzer” <jstatzer@qtm.net>, philipkdick@yahoogroups.com, chantal.cachin@club-internet.fr, quillana@africamil.com, leowalsh@ukonline.co.uk, theresemahon@onetel.net.uk, mattwimpress@lineone.net, sk@ireland.com, alchymist@btinternet.com, cathuria@hotmail.com, anthony@psychonaut.org.uk, clivedecarle@homail.com, nam1945@hotmail.com, kedgeree@hotmail.com, cathuria@hotmail.com, ibogainefoundation@hotmail.com, cre2love@yage.n.et, tantara2000@yahoo.com, wachtel@shani.net, boggle@boggle.f2s.com, nellyd.23@virgin.net, hebalan@supanet.com, jpp71@hotmail.com, mmmvanAmelsvoort@hotmail.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Dana
Tnx for your intervention on the Ibogaine list just now! It is so clear and concrete. direct and sensible
How r plans for France/Ibogaine meeting going? You have contact with Farid right?
love andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
Please Alert yr NYC area contacts:
“HARLEM BUILDS NYC SUPPORT
FOR IBOGAINE* & IBOGA ACCESS”
…A FORUM & SLIDESHOW
*The Sacred African Rain Forest Plant Medication for Addictions
Saturday, November 16th – 8:00 am – 2:00 pm
Moderator Suzanne Bellamy (healer, ex-BPP) 8:45 – 9:05
Elombe Brath (activist/ journalist/ PLC) 9:05 – 9:30
Awolowo Johnson (sociologist/ Nganga) 9:30 – 10:00
Emmanuel Onaivi (NIDA researcher) 10:00 – 10:30
Kenneth Alper (M.D./ Ibogaine Expert) 10:30 – 11:10
Playthell Benjamin (journalist/ pundit) 11:10 – 11:35 Rommell Washington (social worker) 11:35 – 12:00
Gen Discussion/ Moderator intro 12:00 – 1:30
Moderator Close 1:30 – 2:00
$10 ADMISSION — ADDITIONAL DONATIONS WELCOME
The Dempsey Center can accommodate more than 400 people. No
one will be turned away. This forum is to be announced on KISS FM.
In the Dempsey Center Auditorium 127 W. 127th St.
(Take the IRT 2 or 3 at W. 125th St. and Malcolm X Blvd/ Lenox Avenue)
For more info call: Rommell Washington at 212-304-0035
(Benu Project & Afrikan Wholistic Network)
or Dana Beal at 212-677-7180 (Cures not Wars)
Other Ibogaine events now scheduled include:
San Francisco: November 29, 30 (w. myself, Patrick Kroupa, John Pablo) (415)567-0873 (Nelson)
Panel at Seattle Harm Reduction Conference Dec. 2nd (w. myself, Patrick Kroupa, John Pablo) (212)677-7180 (Dana)
Paris: December 6 (w. Bertrand LeBeau, myself, Patrick Kroupa, John Pablo, Laurent Sazy, & an Nganga) 0033-614-815-679 (Farid) 0033-612-936-958 or 0033-144-939-357 (Aivia)
NYC International Iboga Conference Feb. 7, 8th, 2003 (718)442-2754 (Howard)
Dana/cnw
At 10:02 AM -0400 10/22/02, HSL123@aol.com wrote:
From: HSL123@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:02:32 EDT
Subject: February 7/8 2003, Draft Agenda Conference on Iboga and Ibogaine
To: cnw@cures-not-wars.org, Nmitsogo@aol.com, clayhoney@hotmail.com
Status:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=”UTF-8″
Content-Language: en
International Conference
On Iboga and Ibogaine
New York
February 7 & 8, 2003
PROPOSED AGENDA
Friday, February 7. 2003
Technical requirements & equipment
2 tables
5 chairs
1-2 tablecloth & skirt
1 podium
6 stationary microphones (5 at table, 1 at podium)
1 wireless Microphone (audience questions)
1 slide projector
1 PowerPoint projector
8:30 am – 9:30 am
Registration
9:30 am – 9:40 am
Introductory remarks
H.S. Lotsof
9:40 am – 1:00 pm
Scientific Panel
Kenneth R. Alper, MD
Deborah C. Mash PhD
Stanley Glick, MD
Emmanuel Onaivi, Phd
Syed Ali, PhD
Discussion
1:00 pm – 2:15 PM
Lunch
2:15 pm – 5:00 pm
Advocacy and the Politics of Availability
Dana Beal
Joycelyn S. Woods
Boaz Wachtel
Alan Clear
Vic Hernandez
Discussion
Saturday, February 8, 2003
Technical requirements & equipment
2 tables
6 chairs
1-2 tablecloth & skirt
1 podium
5 stationary microphones (4 at table, 1 at podium)
1 wireless Microphone (audience questions)
1 slide projector
1 PowerPoint projector
8:00 am – 9:00 am
Registration
9:00 am – 1:00 pm
Treatment Providers
Sara Glatt
Carl Naeher
Hattie Wells
Samuel Waizmann
Howard Lotsof
Marco Resinovik
Discussion
1:00 pm – 2:15 pm
Lunch
2:15 pm – 6:00 pm
Traditional Healing and Religious Practice
Laurent Sazy
Awolowo Johnson
Marendi
Discussion
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 4:50:46 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Of course not every junkie is a thief. Some just nag you until you give them twenty dollars.<
You’ve got a big heart Dana. Very sorry to hear about current 9 Bleecker St. eviction troubles.
>To be ripped off by the people one’s trying to help–because to their cynical minds it’s more important that they get their drugs than that money be wasted on radical posturing which won’t change anything anyway– is quite depressing.<
Cynical minds? Dana, if they are genuinely addicted to opiates, it isn’t cynisism, it’s need. Supply that need it removes that desperation entirely. It’s the rare person who has to supply that need on a daily basis without fear and stress about where do they get their supply, hence the rarity of dope addicted workers that I personally know in reform. As much as I’m for maintinence I don’t hang out with many dope addicts facing the desperations of scoring under these days of prohibition.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Speaking as someone who has had personal experience with one form of opiate or another for one heck of a long time, and on some functioned fine and others not so fine, I tend to highly disagree that heroin in and of itself turns people into non-functional thieves Dana.
Under CURRENT prohibition environs, ok, I see some of yours and Andria’s points, and grant you both touches, (lacking that little accent thingy that goes in that French word). But as a person who realized long ago that hey, I personally function pretty darn well as long as I’m not being chased by cops and buying nasty god knows what on the streets or from unlicensed dealers, I am very adamant that maintenance is a good thing, not a bad thing, and should be actively promoted right along side every single other harm reduction method I can think of. Damnit.;-)
And the original point I was groping towards in my note in reply to Marc is to suggest in friendly but strong terms that he must not simply “give up” on his son for a relapse. Granted, perhaps ibogaine will turn out NOT to be the route that leads to a resolution of his son’s troubles, and perhaps a few doses will in fact be that solution. Won’t know until they try. Again, my main point is that regardless of his son’s using, it is not going to be very helpful to get angry at his son or to dwell on disappointment.
Love over all.
Peace,
Preston
Of course not every junkie is a thief. Some just nag you until you give them twenty dollars. And I’ve been ripped off plenty by people who weren’t on anything but beer.
But that being said, people severely addicted to hard drugs are a HUGE drain on any scene that’s agreed to allocate its surplus resources to changing system and GETTING RID of prohibition and the narc police state.
The idea of market separation didn’t arise in a vacuum.To be ripped off by the people one’s trying to help–because to their cynical minds it’s more important that they get their drugs than that money be wasted on radical posturing which won’t change anything anyway– is quite depressing.
Do you know how many times that’s happened to us here in thirty years at 9 Bleecker? And now we’re set to lose the place, and there’ll nothing like it in NYC.
Dana/cnw
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Scheduling of Ibogaine in the U.K.
Date: November 3, 2002 at 4:41:57 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Scheduling of Ibogaine in the U.K.
i MEANT sCHEDULE 3 of course, but U might wanna check; 1 of U said it’s not been scheduled yet but I’m almost certain..(U.K)
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
3 is better than 1. I am reliably informed moves are underway to re-schedule ibo from 1 to 2 or 3 in the U.S.
Dana/cnw
I’m still waiting to hear about ibogaine in the UK. As far as I know it’s still only restricted under the Medicines Act [as before] and not an offence to possess. After the inquest into the death in Jan 2000, it was put on a list of herbal medicinal products proposed to be restricted. But as far as I know no decision has been taken yet. I’ve mailed the MCA and the Herbalists group to try and find out what going on. This is T. iboga’s listing from http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ehpa/MCAlist0901.htm
Contains the alkaloid, Ibogaine. Both plant and alkaloid regarded as medicines by the MCA within the second limb of the definition. 1 fatal reaction in UK to Tabernanthe iboga preparation. Plant and alkaloid concerned extremely potent.
Illegal in some countries including the USA.
Use may require medical supervision.
Nick
From: Vector Vector <vector620022002@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] ICANN Tells World to Fuck Off and Die
Date: November 3, 2002 at 4:41:45 PM EST
To: vox@mindvox.com, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
http://www.pigdog.org/auto/Power_Corrupts/link/2714.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/828786.asp?cp1=1
ICANN Tells World to Fuck Off and Die
2002-11-01 16:38:42
In a crushing blow to the freedom of the Internet, ICANN voted Thursday
to permanently close elections to its board of directors, thus clearing
the way for a small group of individuals to control the entire Internet
DNS system with little or no oversight or accountability.
ICANN, or the Internet Corporation for Assigned Numbers and Names, was
established in 1998 as “the non-profit corporation that was formed to
assume responsibility for the IP address space allocation, protocol
parameter assignment, domain name system management, and root server
system management functions previously performed under U.S. Government
contract by IANA and other entities.”
In other words, ICANN is responsible for deciding who gets to use the
Internet, and how they may use it.
Previously, the elections for 5 of the 18 members of the board of
directers were performed democratically over the Internet. This allowed
ICANN members, which include ISPs, DNS Registrars, technology
companies, institutes of higher learning, and other concerned parties
to voice their concerns in open, democratic debate. The new rules allow
ICANN to appoint members to the board of directors without pesky
opposition by consumer groups or the general public.
According to ICANN’s revised bylaws, the Directors shall now consist
of:
a. Eight voting members selected by the Nominating Committee
established by Article VII of these Bylaws. These seats on the Board of
Directors are referred to in these Bylaws as Seats 1 through 8.
b. Two voting members selected by the Address Supporting Organization
according to the provisions of Article VIII of these Bylaws. These
seats on the Board of Directors are referred to in these Bylaws as Seat
9 and Seat 10.
c. Two voting members selected by the Country-Code Names Supporting
Organization according to the provisions of Article IX of these Bylaws.
These seats on the Board of Directors are referred to in these Bylaws
as Seat 11 and Seat 12.
d. Two voting members selected by the Generic Names Supporting
Organization according to the provisions of Article X of these Bylaws.
These seats on the Board of Directors are referred to in these Bylaws
as Seat 13 and Seat 14.
e. The President ex officio, who shall be a voting member.
So the majority of the board of directors will now be selected by a
“Nominating Committee”, which will select 8 out of the 15 voting
members of the board. This tips the balance of power so far that a
group of board members appointed by the Nominating Commitee would be
able to win any simple majority vote, even if the president and all
other board members disagree with them.
The Nominating Committee consists of 11 members. Only one of these 11
members represents “Consumer and civil society groups”, while 3 are
appointed directly by ICANN, and the rest are a mix of members who
represent Registrars, ISPs, and intellectual property holders.
Educational interests will supposedly be represented by one of the 3
board members appointed directly by ICANN.
Karl Auerbach, one of the 5 current board members elected through
popular vote, said that ICANN “is not allowing public participation.”
Auerbach voted against the reform, stating that “It is very much
becoming a body that follows the interests of big business.”
The Internet has only been used by businesses for about a decade, while
public and educational institutions have been using the technology for
more than twice that long.
There is still a chance that the matter will go up for review, but
ICANN’s procedures call for actions of the board to be reviewed first
by the board themselves, then by an “Independant Review Panel” which is
appointed by the board. Since only 3 of the 15 board members voted
against this reform, a reversal of the decision is highly unlikely.
Following the vote to close elections, another vote was held to
increase the fees that some ICANN members will have to pay to
participate even marginally in the decision-making progress. This will
allow ICANN, which is already under scrutiny for possible financial
irregularities, to spend even more money silencing opposition.
ICANN also revealed plans to introduce 3 new top level domains, even
though the 7 the organization introduced in 2000 failed to provide the
diversity of domain name availability that was promised. Instead,
businesses bought every available version of their domain name they
could, effectively keeping the number of available names the same while
lining the pockets of registrars, who in turn fund ICANN.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 4:34:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>We are
hearing now about Snoop Dogg quitting smoking herb, but I haven’t heard
anything about him going in for detox or even rehab. Maybe he’s getting
counselling, not sure … but he’s not strapped to a bed.<
No substanciation on this, but I recently heard a rumor that although Snoop is not smoking herb, but perhaps has employed a bit of semantics because the rumor is he’s using a handy dandy vaporizer.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Joshua Tinnin
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
I won’t pretend to answer for Marc … but, for one thing, quitting heroin
after using for a while is a physically debilitating process, very much so –
it can even kill you, in severe cases. There is also tolerance. Most heroin
addicts are just trying to feel normal when they get a fix, to avoid
kicking, as their tolerance has developed for it, and the high is
diminished. This happens to an extent with mj, but save for the heaviest
smokers, even consistent, daily users get high – they aren’t trying to reach
up to baseline or avoid withdrawals. Here’s something to consider – if you
smoked pot every day for six months, you could quit easily. Of course some
people really do not want to, and there may be some psychological dependence
for some. But if you did heroin every day for six months, quitting cold
turkey wouldn’t be so pleasant. This becomes more and more difficult as time
goes by. For most pot smokers, it’s self-limiting. Many people reach an age
where they don’t want to smoke anymore, or maybe not as often. Such
transitions seem to be quite simple for them. Of course, there are people
who will develop dependence on many things, and pot may be a part of that,
but it’s surely not on the same level of addiction as tobacco. We are
hearing now about Snoop Dogg quitting smoking herb, but I haven’t heard
anything about him going in for detox or even rehab. Maybe he’s getting
counselling, not sure … but he’s not strapped to a bed.
All that said, I think that demonizing the user is ultimately destructive.
We see stoners on TV and movies and laugh, and see junkies and cringe. It’s
that fear, deep within ourselves, that this reveals: the fear of loss of
control. The junkie is the archetype of the individual who has lost control,
even if that may not entirely be true in individual situations. We fear
this, though, the unchecked Id, the Superego having been drowned out, to put
it in Freudian terms. This is the source of much guilt and shame, and is the
basis of 12-step programs, with even their meetings consisting of many
confessionals. So, we fear losing control, and we are loathe to see anyone
else in that situation – we fear that part of ourselves, the compulsive and
obsessive part. All entheogens and intoxicants are treated this way by many
societies with a Puritanical streak. Part of that shameful perspective, and
something that came up in the drugwar list, is that getting “high” is seen
as a “bad” thing. Ultimately, it’s very much a human thing, and sometimes
it’s a good thing, but of course that’s subjective. We see it as “escapism”
or “dependence,” even if the use is not at all that way. But each to his or
her own, and these things do have different effects. I feel no guilt about
my own marijuana use, though I can say positively that I would not want to
go through years of opioid use and/or addiction. Sounds like that road leads
to one of two places: sobriety from opioids or death. The same can be said
of alcoholics. And even then there will be people who buck the trend. But I
don’t see the same consequences with pot use. Some people lose motivation
and/or focus when smoking too much, but that’s a persoanl issue; it doesn’t
affect all people this way. OTOH, *anyone* who uses opioids for long enough
will become physically dependent on them.
For me, personally, marijuana is a miracle. It helped me get through chemo
due to cancer twelve years ago, and it helps me today in other ways. If it
weren’t illegal, I’d be a farmer, no joke. Depending on what happens, I may
yet get that chance.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
> Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
>
> I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
>
> What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
>
> Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get 25MB Storage, POP3 Access,
> Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus&ref=lmtplus
>
>
>
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Are we talking about in our ideal legaly-regulated world or now?
Date: November 3, 2002 at 3:44:50 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>WHich only goes to prove my sad/unsatisfactory point: we are all different. If I smoke dope, I just wanna curl up and sleep for the most part or dive down a hole so noone can spot how crazy i really am!<
Considering that you have actually seen me in a fairly baked condition, more than once even Andria, this is an obvious point, in that we all have different reactions to different stuff.
If I tried functioning straight and sober all day every day, (and yep, I have been there done that) then I’d be dealing with too much pain. Yuck. Sooo, I prefer functioning to tell the truth as opposed to suffering. And I’m probably at my most happy lately. (KNOCK ON LOTSA WOOD PLEASE)
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: AndriaE@aol.com
To: Ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 2:56 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Are we talking about in our ideal legaly-regulated world or now?
One more thing. I can do just about anything after smoking pot, including
work of all sorts, sometimes better, but it depends on the type of work. I
find computer work especially suited for it, including programming. For me,
it helps me focus and to ignore other distractions. Not everyone can do this
(although I think that’s mostly due to mental blocks), and I don’t enjoy
smoking during everything I do, not even close. Set and setting helps, as it
does with everything. But, personally, I trust people’s judgement a lot more
if they are stoned than if they are drunk. It never devolves to the level
that can happen with alcohol, though a beer at lunch is nothing to fear.
WHich only goes to prove my sad/unsatisfactory point: we are all different. If I smoke dope, I just wanna curl up and sleep for the most part or dive down a hole so noone can spot how crazy i really am!
But yeh jt, the facts/data about pot seem to be more upbeat than that TG!
a
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 3:42:27 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Speaking as someone who has had personal experience with one form of opiate or another for one heck of a long time, and on some functioned fine and others not so fine, I tend to highly disagree that heroin in and of itself turns people into non-functional thieves Dana.
Under CURRENT prohibition environs, ok, I see some of yours and Andria’s points, and grant you both touches, (lacking that little accent thingy that goes in that French word). But as a person who realized long ago that hey, I personally function pretty darn well as long as I’m not being chased by cops and buying nasty god knows what on the streets or from unlicensed dealers, I am very adamant that maintenance is a good thing, not a bad thing, and should be actively promoted right along side every single other harm reduction method I can think of. Damnit.;-)
And the original point I was groping towards in my note in reply to Marc is to suggest in friendly but strong terms that he must not simply “give up” on his son for a relapse. Granted, perhaps ibogaine will turn out NOT to be the route that leads to a resolution of his son’s troubles, and perhaps a few doses will in fact be that solution. Won’t know until they try. Again, my main point is that regardless of his son’s using, it is not going to be very helpful to get angry at his son or to dwell on disappointment.
Love over all.
Peace,
Preston
Of course not every junkie is a thief. Some just nag you until you give them twenty dollars. And I’ve been ripped off plenty by people who weren’t on anything but beer.
But that being said, people severely addicted to hard drugs are a HUGE drain on any scene that’s agreed to allocate its surplus resources to changing system and GETTING RID of prohibition and the narc police state.
The idea of market separation didn’t arise in a vacuum.To be ripped off by the people one’s trying to help–because to their cynical minds it’s more important that they get their drugs than that money be wasted on radical posturing which won’t change anything anyway– is quite depressing.
Do you know how many times that’s happened to us here in thirty years at 9 Bleecker? And now we’re set to lose the place, and there’ll nothing like it in NYC.
Dana/cnw
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 3:38:19 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
No, what I am saying is that, despite the problems you mention, it is
*possible* to have a system whereby those problems are eliminated. The fact
is that an H addict can have a much better shot at living a functional life,
and thereby getting to the point where kicking becomes something to consider
in a different mindset. But you’re right, living as a functional H addict is
much more difficult if these systems are not in place. The typical street
junkie will likely have more difficulty being functional and getting help
than the wealthy one, very true. But even more reason to consider
maintenance, and, of course, ibo. Hell, whatever works is good, as long as
there is a level of dignity and respect involved, and not just using “tough
love” to solve the problem. It’s up to the addict, ultimately, but there is
every reason to practice harm reduction to bring addicts out of the gutter,
maybe even to save their lives, and to stop the spread of disease. The way
it is now, being a struggling junkie makes it almost impossible to be
functional, but there are some solutions – no magic bullets, just stuff that
works for many to alleviate this situation. But I’m sure that doesn’t need
to be said here, of anywhere … so probably stating the obvious and being
redundant.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: <AndriaE@aol.com>
jt
U’ve overlooked my point almost completely! Europeans do not live in a
situation where the socio-economic circumstances are the same for pot
users
and heroin users. Pot users do not have to go to a clinic etc etc etc..
If I had reasonably-priced easy access, it is possible that my life would
be
more functional in fact, since i tend to go a little para on pot; the
evidence U refer top as U rightly say only takes care of a very small
minority of H users in the world
I am trying to answer the question NOW based on the system we have: FACT,
Heroin users will for the most part be more vulnerable under the current
prohibitive laws, the expense of the drug and the fact that it is most
injected and not clean.
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 3:23:30 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And U r right – 2 right – Preston. (Not sure that Marc was angry as much as frustrated) but yep i think for certain that one of the reasons I’m still alive is cos I did have somebody saying U matter to me most of my using; my Mom till she died in 1984, then G knows how many TCs and recovery-folk, which makes U an even more spectacular person than I originally thought right?!
a
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 3:21:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
I won’t pretend to answer for Marc … but, for one thing, quitting heroin
after using for a while is a physically debilitating process, very much so –
it can even kill you, in severe cases. There is also tolerance. Most heroin
addicts are just trying to feel normal when they get a fix, to avoid
kicking, as their tolerance has developed for it, and the high is
diminished. This happens to an extent with mj, but save for the heaviest
smokers, even consistent, daily users get high – they aren’t trying to reach
up to baseline or avoid withdrawals. Here’s something to consider – if you
smoked pot every day for six months, you could quit easily. Of course some
people really do not want to, and there may be some psychological dependence
for some. But if you did heroin every day for six months, quitting cold
turkey wouldn’t be so pleasant. This becomes more and more difficult as time
goes by. For most pot smokers, it’s self-limiting. Many people reach an age
where they don’t want to smoke anymore, or maybe not as often. Such
transitions seem to be quite simple for them. Of course, there are people
who will develop dependence on many things, and pot may be a part of that,
but it’s surely not on the same level of addiction as tobacco. We are
hearing now about Snoop Dogg quitting smoking herb, but I haven’t heard
anything about him going in for detox or even rehab. Maybe he’s getting
counselling, not sure … but he’s not strapped to a bed.
All that said, I think that demonizing the user is ultimately destructive.
We see stoners on TV and movies and laugh, and see junkies and cringe. It’s
that fear, deep within ourselves, that this reveals: the fear of loss of
control. The junkie is the archetype of the individual who has lost control,
even if that may not entirely be true in individual situations. We fear
this, though, the unchecked Id, the Superego having been drowned out, to put
it in Freudian terms. This is the source of much guilt and shame, and is the
basis of 12-step programs, with even their meetings consisting of many
confessionals. So, we fear losing control, and we are loathe to see anyone
else in that situation – we fear that part of ourselves, the compulsive and
obsessive part. All entheogens and intoxicants are treated this way by many
societies with a Puritanical streak. Part of that shameful perspective, and
something that came up in the drugwar list, is that getting “high” is seen
as a “bad” thing. Ultimately, it’s very much a human thing, and sometimes
it’s a good thing, but of course that’s subjective. We see it as “escapism”
or “dependence,” even if the use is not at all that way. But each to his or
her own, and these things do have different effects. I feel no guilt about
my own marijuana use, though I can say positively that I would not want to
go through years of opioid use and/or addiction. Sounds like that road leads
to one of two places: sobriety from opioids or death. The same can be said
of alcoholics. And even then there will be people who buck the trend. But I
don’t see the same consequences with pot use. Some people lose motivation
and/or focus when smoking too much, but that’s a persoanl issue; it doesn’t
affect all people this way. OTOH, *anyone* who uses opioids for long enough
will become physically dependent on them.
For me, personally, marijuana is a miracle. It helped me get through chemo
due to cancer twelve years ago, and it helps me today in other ways. If it
weren’t illegal, I’d be a farmer, no joke. Depending on what happens, I may
yet get that chance.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking
anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of
people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to
slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse
then drug addiction itself.
What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing
heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that
promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want
your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you,
him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one
lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to
be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I
know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine
as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone
taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is
high on pot all day is all right.
Thank you.
__________________________________________________________
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 3:15:40 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Speaking as someone who has had personal experience with one form of opiate or another for one heck of a long time, and on some functioned fine and others not so fine, I tend to highly disagree that heroin in and of itself turns people into non-functional thieves Dana.
Under CURRENT prohibition environs, ok, I see some of yours and Andria’s points, and grant you both touches, (lacking that little accent thingy that goes in that French word). But as a person who realized long ago that hey, I personally function pretty darn well as long as I’m not being chased by cops and buying nasty god knows what on the streets or from unlicensed dealers, I am very adamant that maintenance is a good thing, not a bad thing, and should be actively promoted right along side every single other harm reduction method I can think of. Damnit.;-)
And the original point I was groping towards in my note in reply to Marc is to suggest in friendly but strong terms that he must not simply “give up” on his son for a relapse. Granted, perhaps ibogaine will turn out NOT to be the route that leads to a resolution of his son’s troubles, and perhaps a few doses will in fact be that solution. Won’t know until they try. Again, my main point is that regardless of his son’s using, it is not going to be very helpful to get angry at his son or to dwell on disappointment.
Love over all.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
>Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not
>attacking anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to
>negative slamming of people, only bring up things I think to be of
>import.
>
>I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
>Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great
>contribution to slang!) where the main point is that treatment for
>drug addiction, is worse then drug addiction itself.
>
>What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son
>doing heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a
>magazine that promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is
>obvious that you want your son to stop doing heroin but I am very
>curious why is it that for you, him using heroin is any worse then
>you smoking pot?
>
>Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
>messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why
>one lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone
>who appears to be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as
>they apply to pot. I know the whole seperation of hard and soft
>drugs model and think it’s fine as a step in the right direction.
>But I really want to know why someone taking heroin turns them into
>a undesirable person, while another who is high on pot all day is
>all right.
>
>Thank you.
The short answer is that unlike people, all drugs are not created
equal. Marijuana is an agonist/antagonist, therefore you don’t build
up tolerance or go into withdrawal when you can’t get it; on heroin
most people can’t function once they become addicts. They steal from
everyone around them, for one thing.
We are in a situation of illegality, not legality–so there’s no
point in pretending everyone can get all the pharmaceutical grade
heroin they need at government expense. It’s all speedball shit here
in NYC anyway–they call it p-dope, heroin washed in procaine &
novocaine–so that you end up shooting more and sharing needles.
The best yr going to do is wind up on methadone, which makes yr teeth
fall out and slowly destroys yr organs. Plus it’s incompatible with
AIDS drugs, whereas everyone know people with AIDS do better on
cannabis.
With cannabis you can see what yr getting, and you can grow yr own,
so that you don’t wind up in Vancouver’s heroin ghetto, like Marc’s
son.
Richard, riddle me this: Why are you pretending that heroin and coke
are the equivalent of pot? You know they’re not. People spend
thousands of dollars on multiple ibogaine treatments just so they can
get off their hard drugs and stabilize on cannabis.
Dana/cnw
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 3:03:59 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not
attacking anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to
negative slamming of people, only bring up things I think to be of
import.
I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term
Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great
contribution to slang!) where the main point is that treatment for
drug addiction, is worse then drug addiction itself.
What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son
doing heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a
magazine that promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is
obvious that you want your son to stop doing heroin but I am very
curious why is it that for you, him using heroin is any worse then
you smoking pot?
Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative
messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why
one lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone
who appears to be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as
they apply to pot. I know the whole seperation of hard and soft
drugs model and think it’s fine as a step in the right direction.
But I really want to know why someone taking heroin turns them into
a undesirable person, while another who is high on pot all day is
all right.
Thank you.
The short answer is that unlike people, all drugs are not created
equal. Marijuana is an agonist/antagonist, therefore you don’t build
up tolerance or go into withdrawal when you can’t get it; on heroin
most people can’t function once they become addicts. They steal from
everyone around them, for one thing.
We are in a situation of illegality, not legality–so there’s no
point in pretending everyone can get all the pharmaceutical grade
heroin they need at government expense. It’s all speedball shit here
in NYC anyway–they call it p-dope, heroin washed in procaine &
novocaine–so that you end up shooting more and sharing needles.
The best yr going to do is wind up on methadone, which makes yr teeth
fall out and slowly destroys yr organs. Plus it’s incompatible with
AIDS drugs, whereas everyone know people with AIDS do better on
cannabis.
With cannabis you can see what yr getting, and you can grow yr own,
so that you don’t wind up in Vancouver’s heroin ghetto, like Marc’s
son.
Richard, riddle me this: Why are you pretending that heroin and coke
are the equivalent of pot? You know they’re not. People spend
thousands of dollars on multiple ibogaine treatments just so they can
get off their hard drugs and stabilize on cannabis.
Dana/cnw
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] Are we talking about in our ideal legaly-regulated world or now?
Date: November 3, 2002 at 2:56:27 PM EST
To: Ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
One more thing. I can do just about anything after smoking pot, including
work of all sorts, sometimes better, but it depends on the type of work. I
find computer work especially suited for it, including programming. For me,
it helps me focus and to ignore other distractions. Not everyone can do this
(although I think that’s mostly due to mental blocks), and I don’t enjoy
smoking during everything I do, not even close. Set and setting helps, as it
does with everything. But, personally, I trust people’s judgement a lot more
if they are stoned than if they are drunk. It never devolves to the level
that can happen with alcohol, though a beer at lunch is nothing to fear.
WHich only goes to prove my sad/unsatisfactory point: we are all different. If I smoke dope, I just wanna curl up and sleep for the most part or dive down a hole so noone can spot how crazy i really am!
But yeh jt, the facts/data about pot seem to be more upbeat than that TG!
a
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 2:53:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
jt
U’ve overlooked my point almost completely! Europeans do not live in a situation where the socio-economic circumstances are the same for pot users and heroin users. Pot users do not have to go to a clinic etc etc etc..
If I had reasonably-priced easy access, it is possible that my life would be more functional in fact, since i tend to go a little para on pot; the evidence U refer top as U rightly say only takes care of a very small minority of H users in the world
I am trying to answer the question NOW based on the system we have: FACT, Heroin users will for the most part be more vulnerable under the current prohibitive laws, the expense of the drug and the fact that it is most injected and not clean.
a
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 2:46:26 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
One more thing. I can do just about anything after smoking pot, including
work of all sorts, sometimes better, but it depends on the type of work. I
find computer work especially suited for it, including programming. For me,
it helps me focus and to ignore other distractions. Not everyone can do this
(although I think that’s mostly due to mental blocks), and I don’t enjoy
smoking during everything I do, not even close. Set and setting helps, as it
does with everything. But, personally, I trust people’s judgement a lot more
if they are stoned than if they are drunk. It never devolves to the level
that can happen with alcohol, though a beer at lunch is nothing to fear.
– jt
—– Original Message —–
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
—– Original Message —–
From: <AndriaE@aol.com>
And U r asking Marc, and I’m going to answer for myself.
WITHIN the present system, using heroin is a far more dangerous scenario
both
of U, AND U know that: health, socio-economic – and u both know that
UNLESS
of course U happen to be happy, stable and rich.
Check Switzerland and Germany’s maintenance programs.
I suspect that what U r really asking is about IF the laws were not such
that
they are right now, would we feel differently. Speaking for me, doing
reform
work, frankly sometimes i find myself getting far more cross with
lunchtime
smokers of pot! (I mean, for the most part people do not come back after
lunch drunk,) so why is any drug ok other than at the end of the working
day?
I know U 2 are gonna say I’m a fascist; U’re prob. right: i just know
for
myself that my functioning is reduced by all drugs – since I am
committed
to
my work, it’s rough trying to do both and succeed; indeed in my
experience –
it was more or less either/or: even the damned hangovers are a downer,
but
U
ALL – the issue is that we all have different bodies/systems that
respond
differently right?
U r asking a question about morality, social norms and I’m answering
medically/psychically…
Is taking heroin any worse than smoking pot morally, socially? NO
Could most of us take heroin and be functional? Depends on a no of
factors
like
a) addiction or not,
Only the most severe (“hopeless”) addicts were admitted to the Swiss
program. Many of them have since become functional, if not “clean” – far
more than in other approaches.
b) access,
A dose is provided with no hassle to those in the program. It is limited,
but the German program is expanding, and has been recommended to the EU.
c) income and whether U can afford it
A dose is, IIRC, $10 under the Swiss program.
Need i go on?
Erm … well, seems that clean maintenance doses in a controlled setting
works better than most of what’s been tried. I think they should combine
ibo
therapy for those ready to kick.
Do U set firworks off in America around this time of year: it’s like a
bloody
warzone here at the minute!
The fireworks are all coming out of the politicians mouths (and some
journalists). It will be calm again for a while after the elections on
Tuesday … and then the holidays kick in, and I think we’re going to war
with Iraq, or some other poor, under-armed country with oil. It will be an
interesting winter, that’s for sure.
– jt
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 2:35:15 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
most americans do not know who Guy Fawlkes (sp?) is, so no, no fireworks.
more on the rest in a few minutes.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: AndriaE@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
And U r asking Marc, and I’m going to answer for myself.
WITHIN the present system, using heroin is a far more dangerous scenario both of U, AND U know that: health, socio-economic – and u both know that UNLESS of course U happen to be happy, stable and rich.
I suspect that what U r really asking is about IF the laws were not such that they are right now, would we feel differently. Speaking for me, doing reform work, frankly sometimes i find myself getting far more cross with lunchtime smokers of pot! (I mean, for the most part people do not come back after lunch drunk,) so why is any drug ok other than at the end of the working day?
I know U 2 are gonna say I’m a fascist; U’re prob. right: i just know for myself that my functioning is reduced by all drugs – since I am committed to my work, it’s rough trying to do both and succeed; indeed in my experience – it was more or less either/or: even the damned hangovers are a downer, but U ALL – the issue is that we all have different bodies/systems that respond differently right?
U r asking a question about morality, social norms and I’m answering medically/psychically…
Is taking heroin any worse than smoking pot morally, socially? NO
Could most of us take heroin and be functional? Depends on a no of factors like
a) addiction or not,
b) access,
c) income and whether U can afford it
Need i go on?
Do U set firworks off in America around this time of year: it’s like a bloody warzone here at the minute!
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “Joshua Tinnin” <krinklyfig@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 2:35:47 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: <AndriaE@aol.com>
And U r asking Marc, and I’m going to answer for myself.
WITHIN the present system, using heroin is a far more dangerous scenario
both
of U, AND U know that: health, socio-economic – and u both know that
UNLESS
of course U happen to be happy, stable and rich.
Check Switzerland and Germany’s maintenance programs.
I suspect that what U r really asking is about IF the laws were not such
that
they are right now, would we feel differently. Speaking for me, doing
reform
work, frankly sometimes i find myself getting far more cross with
lunchtime
smokers of pot! (I mean, for the most part people do not come back after
lunch drunk,) so why is any drug ok other than at the end of the working
day?
I know U 2 are gonna say I’m a fascist; U’re prob. right: i just know for
myself that my functioning is reduced by all drugs – since I am committed
to
my work, it’s rough trying to do both and succeed; indeed in my
experience –
it was more or less either/or: even the damned hangovers are a downer, but
U
ALL – the issue is that we all have different bodies/systems that respond
differently right?
U r asking a question about morality, social norms and I’m answering
medically/psychically…
Is taking heroin any worse than smoking pot morally, socially? NO
Could most of us take heroin and be functional? Depends on a no of factors
like
a) addiction or not,
Only the most severe (“hopeless”) addicts were admitted to the Swiss
program. Many of them have since become functional, if not “clean” – far
more than in other approaches.
b) access,
A dose is provided with no hassle to those in the program. It is limited,
but the German program is expanding, and has been recommended to the EU.
c) income and whether U can afford it
A dose is, IIRC, $10 under the Swiss program.
Need i go on?
Erm … well, seems that clean maintenance doses in a controlled setting
works better than most of what’s been tried. I think they should combine ibo
therapy for those ready to kick.
Do U set firworks off in America around this time of year: it’s like a
bloody
warzone here at the minute!
The fireworks are all coming out of the politicians mouths (and some
journalists). It will be calm again for a while after the elections on
Tuesday … and then the holidays kick in, and I think we’re going to war
with Iraq, or some other poor, under-armed country with oil. It will be an
interesting winter, that’s for sure.
– jt
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 2:26:13 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
And U r asking Marc, and I’m going to answer for myself.
WITHIN the present system, using heroin is a far more dangerous scenario both of U, AND U know that: health, socio-economic – and u both know that UNLESS of course U happen to be happy, stable and rich.
I suspect that what U r really asking is about IF the laws were not such that they are right now, would we feel differently. Speaking for me, doing reform work, frankly sometimes i find myself getting far more cross with lunchtime smokers of pot! (I mean, for the most part people do not come back after lunch drunk,) so why is any drug ok other than at the end of the working day?
I know U 2 are gonna say I’m a fascist; U’re prob. right: i just know for myself that my functioning is reduced by all drugs – since I am committed to my work, it’s rough trying to do both and succeed; indeed in my experience – it was more or less either/or: even the damned hangovers are a downer, but U ALL – the issue is that we all have different bodies/systems that respond differently right?
U r asking a question about morality, social norms and I’m answering medically/psychically…
Is taking heroin any worse than smoking pot morally, socially? NO
Could most of us take heroin and be functional? Depends on a no of factors like
a) addiction or not,
b) access,
c) income and whether U can afford it
Need i go on?
Do U set firworks off in America around this time of year: it’s like a bloody warzone here at the minute!
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 2:11:25 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Good question that should be asked over and over and over again.
I too am not engaging in an attack here just to iterate. I am genuinely very curious to see the reply to this one, feeling that a differentiation between these choices in drugs use, one being “bad” and the other “not-bad” is personally unpalatable.
Peace,
Preston
“When the imagination is continually lead
to the brink of vice by a system of terror
and denunciations, people fling themselves
over the precipice from the mere dread of falling.”
Sir Thomas Brown
—– Original Message —–
From: Richard Davis
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 1:57 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse then drug addiction itself.
What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you, him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is high on pot all day is all right.
Thank you.
__________________________________________________________
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Advanced Spam protection with LYCOS MAIL PLUS.
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From: “Richard Davis” <rjd1966@lycos.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] question for marc emery
Date: November 3, 2002 at 1:57:12 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Food for thought. Please should everyone keep in mind I am not attacking anyone or their beliefs, I do not want to contribute to negative slamming of people, only bring up things I think to be of import.
I will not go into the whole treatment pimp discussion (perfect term Patrick which btw I am now starting to see everywhere. great contribution to slang!) where the main point is that treatment for drug addiction, is worse then drug addiction itself.
What I wonder about is a question for Marc Emery. Why is your son doing heroin any different or worse then you smoking pot? You run a magazine that promotes the lifestyle choice of smoking pot. It is obvious that you want your son to stop doing heroin but I am very curious why is it that for you, him using heroin is any worse then you smoking pot?
Once more please understand I am not trying to contribute negative messages and not attacking anyone. Only wanting to understand why one lifestyle choice is so much different then another to someone who appears to be very open minded and wants to change drug laws as they apply to pot. I know the whole seperation of hard and soft drugs model and think it’s fine as a step in the right direction. But I really want to know why someone taking heroin turns them into a undesirable person, while another who is high on pot all day is all right.
Thank you.
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From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Scheduling of Ibogaine in the U.K.
Date: November 3, 2002 at 1:21:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
i MEANT sCHEDULE 3 of course, but U might wanna check; 1 of U said it’s not been scheduled yet but I’m almost certain..(U.K)
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
3 is better than 1. I am reliably informed moves are underway to re-schedule ibo from 1 to 2 or 3 in the U.S.
Dana/cnw
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] stability of iboga
Date: November 3, 2002 at 9:46:50 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Does anyone know if iboga extract ( 5X ) is
stable?
Yes
Do the active alkaloids attenuate over short
periods of time?
No
Is special storage a factor ?
Just keep it cool, dark and dry and it should “keep”
just fine. Indra, if that is what you are talking
about is about 17 years old, so yes, it is pretty
stable.
Thanks
You’re welcome
Brett
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From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [ibogaine] understanding ,
Date: November 3, 2002 at 5:01:39 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc Wrote:
“am advised by someone who went through Sara’s clinic learning that these
prescription drugs in the system can induce seizures, and if seizures pose a
greater risk during iboga extract administration, if the patient is a long
term user of benzodiazipiams.”
Marc Emery
Dear Marc ,
I couldn’t understand if your patient wanted to get off Benzo’s or just his Cocaine /Heroine habbit ?
wat is the reason he is taking the Benzo’s for ?
one more thing ,
resentment to people who relapsed and brainwashing
treatments are to my understanding more evil then Heroin use itself,
some Heroin addicts feel warmth with in which makes them feel good ,
that warmth feeling you can get with syrian rue or ayahuasca drink non addictive and natural ,
and with kindness of the people around ,
each day of not using is blessing and an opening door to freedom ,
Freedom of free will .
Sara
From: “Demir” <ddemir@telus.net>
Subject: [ibogaine] stability of iboga
Date: November 3, 2002 at 1:41:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Does anyone know if iboga extract ( 5X ) is stable? Do the active alkaloids attenuate over short periods of time? Is special storage a factor ?
Thanks
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Not-Setbacks/setTHROUGHS in Treatments so far
Date: November 2, 2002 at 7:41:01 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc
I just wanna add something all the way from London..
U have not failed, neither has the Ibogaine: speaking for myself as a carer, and somebody who spent many yrs trying to assist addicts get unsprung: I had to learn it wasn’t down to me, in order to retain my sanity and mental health. Too many docs/counsellors/carers generally think it’s their fault when, as Preston has just said, getting unsprung can take some time, and often several attempts.
Moreover, speaking for myself, the issue was not just about drugs/OR NOT, BUT also about an alternative life-style.
As it happens, I’ve chosen studying and drug policy reform activism.
What is your son into other than addictive drugs: get him talking about that big-time; it’s such a joy to watch folks start to get enthused about things which are good for them (& even perhaps others) no?
Keep us posted: as U can see U have all our support
Strength and goodwill to U. U r doing a great thing
Andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Scheduling of Ibogaine in the U.K.
Date: November 2, 2002 at 7:23:23 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
i MEANT sCHEDULE 3 of course, but U might wanna check; 1 of U said it’s not been scheduled yet but I’m almost certain..(U.K)
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 2, 2002 at 2:58:51 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: <HSLotsof@aol.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Marc,
Many people who provide iboga or ibogaine expect too much or propose to
much
in terms of what ibogaine/iboga may or may not accomplish.
The historic use of iboga/ibogaine to treat chemical dependence in the
literature indicates that in the vast majority of cases multiple
treatments
will be required. Both informal providers and scientific professionals
such
as Glick and Mash indicate as do the ibogaine patents and the Manual (I
think) <www.ibogaine.org/manual.html> that multiple treatments are common
and
further that small doses may prove valuable in overcoming craving.
As strange as it seem to many, I no longer view abstinence as my ultimate
goal in providing ibogaine but, that any benefit of any kind, that may
include only painless withdrawal from opiates as a valuable ibogaine
effect
is appropriate. It may take years to work out the addiction memory
pathways
that took years to be set down.
If medical doctors were so affected by their treatment “failures” (?) as
some
ibogaine providers are, there would be few doctors practicing medicine.
—– Original Message —–
From: Randy Hencken <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Steve,
Ibogaine is much more then a detox. Ibogaine is an opportunity to change
compulsive behaviors, Many people don’t take advantage of that. Most
addicts are looking for a quick fix and aren’t ready to do the real work
that it takes stay clean.
I have been clean for well over a year. The beginning of my clean time
was
hard; I was constantly battling the urge to use. It is now easy for me to
stay clean. I have done the work necessary to put dope out of my life.
There is nothing left in heroin or cocaine for me.
I’ve witnessed many people make miraculous changes via ibogaine. Have you
done ibo yet? Until you try, I don’t think you should belittle it.
Ibogaine is the best thing that ever happened to me, might be the best
thing
that will ever happen to you.
Randy Hencken
www.ibogaine-therapy.net
I agree totally with Howard and Randy’s comments above. You gotta approach
treating someone with ibogaine with as much detachment as possible. This
won’t be easy in reality, especially when you’re doing stuff in your front
room, but my opinion is that you’ve really gotta try. It’s just not fair to
go around telling people they’re going to get off with this drug, even with
redosing. And people that do so are saying more about themselves, and
what’s going on inside of them, than about ibogaine or reality.
Messiah trips, those who want to heal the world rather than heal themselves,
total reality avoiders, anti-conventional medicine people and conspiracy
freaks, etc, etc – all such people abound in the wonderful world of
ibo-therapy and to me it’s totally fine. But, imo, the only fair way to
treat people is to stay real, ask a fair price, and aim for detachment.
Ibogaine will try and show you yourself. The drug will alter your state of
consciousness and then hold a mirror up so you can see who’s there. What you
do with this is up to you.
Nick
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 2, 2002 at 12:55:31 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Patrick is just larger then life because his media kit is like 3
feet thick and he was somebody before he destroyed his whole life. <
Curtis,
Destroyed his whole life? LOL. Just form what I can see from here, a few thousand miles away, it appears that Patrick’s life is far from destroyed, merely in a different phase now.
Peace,
Preston
From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 2, 2002 at 11:27:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Patrick is just larger then life because his media kit is like 3
feet thick and he was somebody before he destroyed his whole life. <
Curtis,
Destroyed his whole life? LOL. Just form what I can see from here, a few thousand miles away, it appears that Patrick’s life is far from destroyed, merely in a different phase now.
Peace,
Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Curtis Hersch
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Watch out world, somebody is taking psych 201 this fall 😉
I know a lot of you like to define yourselves as addicts and
wallow in this very harsh and negative energy, but I am not a
alpha male, not a genius and have occasional flashbacks though I
would not say I suffer from them 🙂 I am also clean.
Patrick gives very reasonable advice if you ever read what he
writes instead of taking things he says to a list at random. I
think most of it amounts to believe in something and do something,
because you are the one who has got to do it bro. And Mr. Ibogaine
Superman from what I remember from his writing took 2 or 3 doses
of ibogaine before he got it together either. He wrote about his
first dose as lasting as long as it took him to get to the airport
and find the nearest dealer which was about 20 minutes clean
before he was back on heroin.
Patrick is just larger then life because his media kit is like 3
feet thick and he was somebody before he destroyed his whole life.
It makes a great story. But there are other people who did not do
so much damage or have such a dramatic recovery or go on to great
things, who did stop using drugs that were killing them because of
ibogaine.
I don’t know about the 80’s and all, but no I haven’t found any of
that instant cure stuff they wrote about either. I think they were
being very optimistic.
Peace out,
Curtis
FWIW my tag line for the day from the cosmic eightball was “I have
not failed, I have just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.”
-Thomas Edison.
On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote :
>
>Every day I like to call the psychic hotline and then load
>Mindvox and see what tag line will set the tone for my day.
>
>Today the cosmic 8ball aka Mindvox gave me: I love my hate.
>
>I answer in the spirit of that aphorism.
>
>Patrick gives great advice. If you’re a alpha male with a IQ that
>blows the bell curve and suffer from HPPD then you should for
>sure take it and become just like Patrick. If you’re not, you
>should take it anyway and get where you’re going a lot faster:
>dead.
>
>
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From: “preston peet” <ptpeet@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 2, 2002 at 11:11:56 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
>Unfortunately I also had the opportunity to very vividly
re-remember what I chose to forget most of the time: heroin addiction
isn’t my problem, it’s my solution. My problem is that I have hell coming
down inside my head, and it’s killing me, say, where’s the dope?<
Hey, what are you talking about Patrick?
Dope is evil man, and dopers too. No sympathy. If they fall down trying to un-spring, fine, they deserve it. Obviously they’re weak and undedicated to being normal productive citizens.
Seriously, all joking aside, (what I meant to write about the above snip was, boy does this sound familiar), Marc, I don’t know you or your son, so do not know if he is being manipulative, but I agree with some of the other writers in that if he is willing to try it (ibogaine) again, and you can help pay for it, why not? PLEASE, tough love sucks. And, as sacrilegious as it may sound, if he is going to insist on remaining sprung, help him find a relatively decent source to cop from. Reduce the harms, but do not cut him out of your life. If he can get decent, clean, un-poisoned heroin, that’s better than poisoned dope that is often out on the streets. Heroin itself isn’t really all that physically bad for a person, other than for that pesky NEED, so better to help keep him as safe as possible while using, in my own humble opinion.
But is he is asking for more help, and you can afford to give it, please consider trying again, and again, and again, and again. One of the very worst parts of being a junky for myself was not having a family or much of anyone for that matter to be able to turn to for even solace. They’re alive, but wanted no part of me for years, and vice versa.
My parents, (thankfully really) told me once they wouldn’t waste the money putting me into drug treatment, (they were talking about STRAIGHT, hence the “thankfully”) they’d just kick me out of the house after calling the police, which they did, kick me out I mean, not call the police, after finding simple marijuana.
It’s hard for people to wrap their heads around, but junkies (and other druggies too) are still people capable of feeling emotions like love and affection even strung out. Never forget that please. And on one more note, relapsing while trying to unspring are so common as to be expected in just about any unspringing done by anyone to the best of my knowledge. It’s a normal part of “recovery.”
Peace and respect,
Preston Peet
ptpeet@nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor at Large High Times mag/.com
“Prohibition creates an irresistibly lucrative
opportunity for entrepreneurs willing to operate
in illicit business. It is the policy
of idealists who cannot appreciate that the use
of drugs often reflects other sets of human
ideals: human perfectibility, the yearning
for a perfect moment, the peace that comes
from oblivion.” Richard Davenport-Hines
—– Original Message —–
From: Patrick K. Kroupa
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
On [Fri, Nov 01, 2002 at 01:38:39PM -0800], [Steve Valman] wrote:
<Many words, saying many things, mostly about me…>
| I am not seeing ibogaine solving any of that. It detoxes you. So do a lot of
| other things.
I’ve done every detox for opiates/opioids that exists. Usually 2 or 3
times, just to make sure I got the full experience, and was able to add it
to my Flavors of Pain collection.
NONE of them do what ibogaine does. Ibogaine doesn’t detox you, it hits a
reset. NOTHING else that exists — that I know about, and exists Right
Now anyway — does this. It does not detox you, it nonexists your habit
and does a complete reset.
This is a huge difference.
| > My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free
| > after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his
| > mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were
| > living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He
| > wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I
| > took the opportunity.”
| >
| > His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
Yeah well, the future’s uncertain and the end is always near, or did
somebody already say that. Anyway, without knowing your son, if he made
it that long, left to his own devices; then he’s doing pretty good.
Depending on how much shit he has in his head to wade through, then he may
well have nearly walked on water.
As Earthpod pointed out, ibogaine sorta opens the door. WHAT it opens the
door to, is highly individual. Some people may have a tough climb, up a
steep hill; others get the chance to crawl through hell.
Whatever is there, the answer is exactly the same: the way out is through.
And unfortunately, no matter how much money you have, or who you pay it
to, there isn’t any way to avoid doing whatever it is that YOU hafta deal
with.
As someone else mentioned, post ibogaine 1; I made it to the airport, and
copped dope within about half an hour. And it was truly fucking
excellent. Coming off basically almost a decade sprung, I really felt it
for the first time in quite a while. Ibogaine was a great investment, if
only to feel my drugs again. What good is money anyway, you can’t inject
it.
The ibogaine was an absolute fucking miracle. Because out of all the
detoxes I ever did, I always felt exactly the same afterwards. Which is
to say; sick as fuck. With ibogaine the drug dependence was actually
lifted… Unfortunately I also had the opportunity to very vividly
re-remember what I chose to forget most of the time: heroin addiction
isn’t my problem, it’s my solution. My problem is that I have hell coming
down inside my head, and it’s killing me, say, where’s the dope?
I hafta go, and do not have the time to cover all this point by point, but
whatever their psychology, on a purely physical basis; many — if not most
— people, wind up needing multiple doses. Especially stimulant abusers.
Multiple doses means 2, sometimes 3 or 4. By the time you’ve hit ibogaine
5, well mahn, it’s all you.
There are also many people who hit themselves with a tuneup onna regular
basis. If they don’t get it, they blow out.
All this is your call, but were I you, I’d pretend to be pissed off for a
few days — perhaps not hard to do — give your son the impression that
actions do have consequences, and then redose him.
A lot of this is just figuring out where ibogaine ends, and you begin.
Okay this is what it does, this is what it will not do, and this is what
to expect. Been there, done that, okay; take II.
The 12-steps don’t do much of anything for me. I could never make it past
step 1. I’m not powerless — especially after ibogaine — I’m making
choices. Perhaps my choices suck, but as insane as they may appear to be,
all I’m trying to do here is stay alive.
Here’s a much better first step: Just keep getting back up. Because
eventually you will stand.
| > I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is
| > discouraging,
Yeah, no kidding.
| > these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our
| > help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So
| > today we are a bit down.
I dunno your financial situation. If you have the resources to offer
people who need help, the chance to get unsprung. That’s highly
beautiful. If those same people wanna keep coming back, well, there’s
that line between helping, and just being used. You may wanna make them
at least pay for the materials, and additional costs involved.
Many people WILL require multiple doses. But heroin and crack ain’t free
either, and if you really are motivated, then you’re going to come up with
a way to get SOME cash.
Patrick
From: “sara glatt” <sara119@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 2, 2002 at 3:11:20 AM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Yes there setbacks ,
some people learn that way , he isn’t strung uit yet , it is possible to give him a small dose 1 1/2 grams extract
and he will be fine again , but he has to do some more work to stay clean .
rehab far from the city and the places that remind him his old ways .
Sara
—– Original Message —–
From: Dana Beal
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Well, there are setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and went and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each treatment costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’ to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person, treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
I would say ditto to most of what Nic and Mundo are saying. But didn’t you say at the time of yr son’s first treatment that you expected this? Howard Lotsof says more than one treatment is the norm.
I think a support group of folks who have been treated should be put in charge of re-treatments, so the effort at least would be on their part. From our point of view, Marc, ibo is a useful adjunct to market separation of pot and hard drugs– a way to keep hard drugs from completely saturating the pot scene, especially the med mar scene.
And yes, I think they’ll respect it more if they have to pay for it, even at subsidized prices. You gotta pay the Bwiti.
Dana/cnw
From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 2, 2002 at 12:24:58 AM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc
Success depends on how you measure it and is not
always black or white, success or failure. Recovery
often comes in fits and starts, even with ibogaine
usually not all at once. I also understand “tough
love” and consiquences but they are not always the
solution or even a good idea. If your son is willing
to re-dose with ibo, give it another shot – and if it
takes another after that or ANOTHER after that – so
what, no one is keeping score. Many cases including
myself were not one shot (of ibo) “successes”, not
even the world famous Patrick did it in one shot. Post
ibogaine addicts often have no physical addiction and
no cravings, but use anyway – cause they are addicts
and don’t know any other way. Also, ibogaine seems to
do what it can at the time, if it is a physical
addiction it does that (and maybe some other stuff for
sure) but a re-treat doesn’t have to mess with a
physical addiction and seems to do more for the head.
Taking ibogaine while addicted to an opiate and when
not addicted are very different experiences (more than
the usual, they are ALL DIFFERENT). Maybe your son is
52% of the way to being clean (whatever that is), did
he fall short by 48% or has he gotten 52% of the way
there – is the glass half full or half empty???
Depends on how ya want to look at it.
Point. If you got a group of addicts who are all READY
to quit, sure you are going to have better success
than if they are not willing enough – but you will
have success either way
Point, if you dosed a group of addicts multiple times
with ibo, they will without a doubt have more (lets
say longer term) success than with a single treatment
– is this the addicts “fault” for the difference, that
they didn’t get clean with fewer treatments??? Is it
the fault of the ibogaine??? It is no ones fault and
no one failed, it is a process.
If someone uses once (twice, thrice…), SO WHAT? If
that a measure of failure, then I am a very clean
(squeaky these days), happy failure. It happens
(relapse), not to me now, but it did happen to me
after my first ibo treatment and after the 2nd – it
takes what it takes and let me tell you I was NOT
STOPPING till I got right where I am.
Also, keep in mind a “booster” (my term) does NOT
require the full blown anti-addictive dose, so long as
they are not addicted (again…). At (depending of
course on the patient) a 10-12mg/kg dose, people are
pretty steady by the end of the next day (if not the
next afternoon). It is much less dangerous and you
pretty much know how sensitive they are – so maybe you
can cut back a bit. This is the dose range you should
use on yourself, should you decide to take some – it
could be that you get some answers for yourself… If
you are a “lightweight” do a bit less, if you are a
stoner, you can do the full 12mg/kg. My Fiancee did
ibo, but then she didn’t “need it” cause she never did
any drugs, that was till she did it and she understood
and UNDERSTOOD.
Steve
“> This was my question. Yes Patrick has answered the
same question at length on
numerous occasions, but I simply am not seeing very
many people who stay clean
post ibogaine. ”
I am clean, but then I did ibogaine more than once,
Patrick did ibogaine more than once so did many other
ibogaine “successes” – or failures, depending on how
you want to look at it. I will do ibogaine again and
again till I don’t. It is not a matter of “getting
close” to relapse any longer, it is for what it does.
Ya know, the stuff quite literally saved my life, I
would be worm food or ashes on someones mantle –
success in my book…
Brett
— Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com> wrote:
What you just wrote is my exact problem and question
about all of this. I
reprinted the one message that summarized it all the
best which was Occam’s
and nobody replied to me. I haven’t heard anyone say
that ibogaine doesn’t
detox you, I think everything I’ve ever read agrees
that it does.
But mostly what I’m seeing are a few exceptions,
most represented by Patrick.
Fine, Patrick is whatever he is and he shot heroin
from 14 until 30 and
stopped because of ibogaine, but whatever he is, he
is not representative of
any “normal” human being. Whatever that means.
While he is the most visible and articulate ibogaine
success story in the
world, there are at least a handful of people on
this list who all fall into
the same category. That being the exceptions.
What has been brought up before and never addressed
are all the positive
stories from informal treatment in the 80s. I don’t
think I have yet seen one
person on this list fall into that category. None,
zero. I’ve seen many people
detoxed and then all of them seem to disappear.
Sometimes they stick around
for a while and give updates how they are doing like
Karina, but then they
vanish. I can guess where they vanish to.
So what does all that mean for ibogaine. It only
works if you’re brilliant,
crazy, super motivated? It only works if you did it
in the 80s and then it
stopped working.
This was my question. Yes Patrick has answered the
same question at length on
numerous occasions, but I simply am not seeing very
many people who stay clean
post ibogaine. From this list alone there are so
many stories of I just did
ibogaine and I’m clean, it’s great. Then every one
of them vanishes.
And further, reading what Patrick has actually
written, not one thing he
himself says, has anything to do with what was
written about ibogaine in the
80s either. From what I remember it’s more “I’m
losing my fucking mind and
want to shoot dope” Then he went to Bangkok and I
guess succeeded in losing
his mind completely and emerged clean. But he did it
with a few sheets of LSD
and god knows how many other entheogens and a huge
amount of work on his part.
I am not seeing ibogaine solving any of that. It
detoxes you. So do a lot of
other things.
That was my point. Thank you Marc.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract
administrationWell, there are
setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after
28 days being drug free
after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago.
He got kicked out of his
mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where
he and his girlfriend were
living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract
there for 28 days). He
wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I
had the opportunity and I
took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes
very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days
ago, even though having
no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare
cheque 7 days later and went
and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga
again, but each treatment
costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and
the supervisors who help
me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as
being ‘highly motivated’
to quit when there is an absense of physical
withdrawl and his environment
is excellent. So we have declined to assist
further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for
the user. I yesterday
recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with
my first iboga person,
treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed
after her ibogaine
experience (about 60 days after) and then was
retreated in August 2001 by
iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on
three occassions since, but
not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology
of addiction, but it is
discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are
not charging people for our
help, the only reward we get is seeing people off
these addictive drugs. So
today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
__________________________________________________
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From: “Patrick K. Kroupa” <digital@phantom.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 9:32:05 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
On [Fri, Nov 01, 2002 at 01:38:39PM -0800], [Steve Valman] wrote:
<Many words, saying many things, mostly about me…>
| I am not seeing ibogaine solving any of that. It detoxes you. So do a lot of
| other things.
I’ve done every detox for opiates/opioids that exists. Usually 2 or 3
times, just to make sure I got the full experience, and was able to add it
to my Flavors of Pain collection.
NONE of them do what ibogaine does. Ibogaine doesn’t detox you, it hits a
reset. NOTHING else that exists — that I know about, and exists Right
Now anyway — does this. It does not detox you, it nonexists your habit
and does a complete reset.
This is a huge difference.
| > My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free
| > after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his
| > mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were
| > living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He
| > wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I
| > took the opportunity.”
| >
| > His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
Yeah well, the future’s uncertain and the end is always near, or did
somebody already say that. Anyway, without knowing your son, if he made
it that long, left to his own devices; then he’s doing pretty good.
Depending on how much shit he has in his head to wade through, then he may
well have nearly walked on water.
As Earthpod pointed out, ibogaine sorta opens the door. WHAT it opens the
door to, is highly individual. Some people may have a tough climb, up a
steep hill; others get the chance to crawl through hell.
Whatever is there, the answer is exactly the same: the way out is through.
And unfortunately, no matter how much money you have, or who you pay it
to, there isn’t any way to avoid doing whatever it is that YOU hafta deal
with.
As someone else mentioned, post ibogaine 1; I made it to the airport, and
copped dope within about half an hour. And it was truly fucking
excellent. Coming off basically almost a decade sprung, I really felt it
for the first time in quite a while. Ibogaine was a great investment, if
only to feel my drugs again. What good is money anyway, you can’t inject
it.
The ibogaine was an absolute fucking miracle. Because out of all the
detoxes I ever did, I always felt exactly the same afterwards. Which is
to say; sick as fuck. With ibogaine the drug dependence was actually
lifted… Unfortunately I also had the opportunity to very vividly
re-remember what I chose to forget most of the time: heroin addiction
isn’t my problem, it’s my solution. My problem is that I have hell coming
down inside my head, and it’s killing me, say, where’s the dope?
I hafta go, and do not have the time to cover all this point by point, but
whatever their psychology, on a purely physical basis; many — if not most
— people, wind up needing multiple doses. Especially stimulant abusers.
Multiple doses means 2, sometimes 3 or 4. By the time you’ve hit ibogaine
5, well mahn, it’s all you.
There are also many people who hit themselves with a tuneup onna regular
basis. If they don’t get it, they blow out.
All this is your call, but were I you, I’d pretend to be pissed off for a
few days — perhaps not hard to do — give your son the impression that
actions do have consequences, and then redose him.
A lot of this is just figuring out where ibogaine ends, and you begin.
Okay this is what it does, this is what it will not do, and this is what
to expect. Been there, done that, okay; take II.
The 12-steps don’t do much of anything for me. I could never make it past
step 1. I’m not powerless — especially after ibogaine — I’m making
choices. Perhaps my choices suck, but as insane as they may appear to be,
all I’m trying to do here is stay alive.
Here’s a much better first step: Just keep getting back up. Because
eventually you will stand.
| > I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is
| > discouraging,
Yeah, no kidding.
| > these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our
| > help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So
| > today we are a bit down.
I dunno your financial situation. If you have the resources to offer
people who need help, the chance to get unsprung. That’s highly
beautiful. If those same people wanna keep coming back, well, there’s
that line between helping, and just being used. You may wanna make them
at least pay for the materials, and additional costs involved.
Many people WILL require multiple doses. But heroin and crack ain’t free
either, and if you really are motivated, then you’re going to come up with
a way to get SOME cash.
Patrick
From: “Randy Hencken” <randyhencken@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 8:56:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Steve,
Ibogaine is much more then a detox. Ibogaine is an opportunity to change compulsive behaviors, Many people don’t take advantage of that. Most addicts are looking for a quick fix and aren’t ready to do the real work that it takes stay clean.
I have been clean for well over a year. The beginning of my clean time was hard; I was constantly battling the urge to use. It is now easy for me to stay clean. I have done the work necessary to put dope out of my life. There is nothing left in heroin or cocaine for me.
I’ve witnessed many people make miraculous changes via ibogaine. Have you done ibo yet? Until you try, I don’t think you should belittle it. Ibogaine is the best thing that ever happened to me, might be the best thing that will ever happen to you.
Randy Hencken
www.ibogaine-therapy.net
From: Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:38:39 -0800 (PST)
What you just wrote is my exact problem and question about all of this. I
reprinted the one message that summarized it all the best which was Occam’s
and nobody replied to me. I haven’t heard anyone say that ibogaine doesn’t
detox you, I think everything I’ve ever read agrees that it does.
But mostly what I’m seeing are a few exceptions, most represented by Patrick.
Fine, Patrick is whatever he is and he shot heroin from 14 until 30 and
stopped because of ibogaine, but whatever he is, he is not representative of
any “normal” human being. Whatever that means.
While he is the most visible and articulate ibogaine success story in the
world, there are at least a handful of people on this list who all fall into
the same category. That being the exceptions.
What has been brought up before and never addressed are all the positive
stories from informal treatment in the 80s. I don’t think I have yet seen one
person on this list fall into that category. None, zero. I’ve seen many people
detoxed and then all of them seem to disappear. Sometimes they stick around
for a while and give updates how they are doing like Karina, but then they
vanish. I can guess where they vanish to.
So what does all that mean for ibogaine. It only works if you’re brilliant,
crazy, super motivated? It only works if you did it in the 80s and then it
stopped working.
This was my question. Yes Patrick has answered the same question at length on
numerous occasions, but I simply am not seeing very many people who stay clean
post ibogaine. From this list alone there are so many stories of I just did
ibogaine and I’m clean, it’s great. Then every one of them vanishes.
And further, reading what Patrick has actually written, not one thing he
himself says, has anything to do with what was written about ibogaine in the
80s either. From what I remember it’s more “I’m losing my fucking mind and
want to shoot dope” Then he went to Bangkok and I guess succeeded in losing
his mind completely and emerged clean. But he did it with a few sheets of LSD
and god knows how many other entheogens and a huge amount of work on his part.
I am not seeing ibogaine solving any of that. It detoxes you. So do a lot of
other things.
That was my point. Thank you Marc.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract administrationWell, there are
> setbacks.
>
> My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free
> after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his
> mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were
> living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He
> wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I
> took the opportunity.”
>
> His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
>
> My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having
> no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and went
> and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each treatment
> costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help
> me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’
> to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment
> is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
>
> I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday
> recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person,
> treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine
> experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by
> iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but
> not in the last 3 months.
>
> She has been battling addiction since 1989.
>
> I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is
> discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our
> help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So
> today we are a bit down.
>
> Marc Emery
>
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From: “Curtis Hersch” <crownofthorns72@rediffmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 8:16:17 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Watch out world, somebody is taking psych 201 this fall 😉
I know a lot of you like to define yourselves as addicts and wallow in this very harsh and negative energy, but I am not a alpha male, not a genius and have occasional flashbacks though I would not say I suffer from them 🙂 I am also clean.
Patrick gives very reasonable advice if you ever read what he writes instead of taking things he says to a list at random. I think most of it amounts to believe in something and do something, because you are the one who has got to do it bro. And Mr. Ibogaine Superman from what I remember from his writing took 2 or 3 doses of ibogaine before he got it together either. He wrote about his first dose as lasting as long as it took him to get to the airport and find the nearest dealer which was about 20 minutes clean before he was back on heroin.
Patrick is just larger then life because his media kit is like 3 feet thick and he was somebody before he destroyed his whole life. It makes a great story. But there are other people who did not do so much damage or have such a dramatic recovery or go on to great things, who did stop using drugs that were killing them because of ibogaine.
I don’t know about the 80’s and all, but no I haven’t found any of that instant cure stuff they wrote about either. I think they were being very optimistic.
Peace out,
Curtis
FWIW my tag line for the day from the cosmic eightball was “I have not failed, I have just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” -Thomas Edison.
On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 brendan22@hushmail.com wrote :
Every day I like to call the psychic hotline and then load Mindvox and see what tag line will set the tone for my day.
Today the cosmic 8ball aka Mindvox gave me: I love my hate.
I answer in the spirit of that aphorism.
Patrick gives great advice. If you’re a alpha male with a IQ that blows the bell curve and suffer from HPPD then you should for sure take it and become just like Patrick. If you’re not, you should take it anyway and get where you’re going a lot faster: dead.
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From: HSLotsof@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 8:07:11 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
In a message dated 11/1/02 4:08:49 PM, marc420emery@shaw.ca writes:
Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract administration Well, there are
setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free
after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of
his mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend
were living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days).
He wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity
and I took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having
no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and
went and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each
treatment
costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help
me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’
to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment
is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday
recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person,
treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine experience
(about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by iboga in
her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but not
in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it
is discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people
for our help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive
drugs. So today we are a bit down.
Marc,
Many people who provide iboga or ibogaine expect too much or propose to much
in terms of what ibogaine/iboga may or may not accomplish.
The historic use of iboga/ibogaine to treat chemical dependence in the
literature indicates that in the vast majority of cases multiple treatments
will be required. Both informal providers and scientific professionals such
as Glick and Mash indicate as do the ibogaine patents and the Manual (I
think) <www.ibogaine.org/manual.html> that multiple treatments are common and
further that small doses may prove valuable in overcoming craving.
As strange as it seem to many, I no longer view abstinence as my ultimate
goal in providing ibogaine but, that any benefit of any kind, that may
include only painless withdrawal from opiates as a valuable ibogaine effect
is appropriate. It may take years to work out the addiction memory pathways
that took years to be set down.
If medical doctors were so affected by their treatment “failures” (?) as some
ibogaine providers are, there would be few doctors practicing medicine.
One of the reason methadone advocates and ibogaine advocates have been
working cooperatively is that each has come to recognize the value of the
alternative therapy even if for interim purposes to the other.
All medicine is experimental and ibogaine therapy is very experimental. If
you are going to do the work you have to anticipate a broad spectrum of
patients responses. The best possibility would be for ibogaine or
second/third generation analogs to be approved and paid for by social and
private insurance to remove the direct cost issue. That is not to say that
there should not be elite facilities who can provide better care but,
ibogaine in some form should be available to anyone who needs it on their
terms and not on the providers terms.
Howard
From: brendan22@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 7:53:02 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Every day I like to call the psychic hotline and then load Mindvox and see what tag line will set the tone for my day.
Today the cosmic 8ball aka Mindvox gave me: I love my hate.
I answer in the spirit of that aphorism.
Patrick gives great advice. If you’re a alpha male with a IQ that blows the bell curve and suffer from HPPD then you should for sure take it and become just like Patrick. If you’re not, you should take it anyway and get where you’re going a lot faster: dead.
On Fri, 01 Nov 2002 13:38:39 -0800 Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com> wrote:
What you just wrote is my exact problem and question about all of
this. I
reprinted the one message that summarized it all the best which
was Occam’s
and nobody replied to me. I haven’t heard anyone say that ibogaine
doesn’t
detox you, I think everything I’ve ever read agrees that it does.
But mostly what I’m seeing are a few exceptions, most represented
by Patrick.
Fine, Patrick is whatever he is and he shot heroin from 14 until
30 and
stopped because of ibogaine, but whatever he is, he is not representative
of
any “normal” human being. Whatever that means.
While he is the most visible and articulate ibogaine success story
in the
world, there are at least a handful of people on this list who all
fall into
the same category. That being the exceptions.
What has been brought up before and never addressed are all the
positive
stories from informal treatment in the 80s. I don’t think I have
yet seen one
person on this list fall into that category. None, zero. I’ve seen
many people
detoxed and then all of them seem to disappear. Sometimes they stick
around
for a while and give updates how they are doing like Karina, but
then they
vanish. I can guess where they vanish to.
So what does all that mean for ibogaine. It only works if you’re
brilliant,
crazy, super motivated? It only works if you did it in the 80s and
then it
stopped working.
This was my question. Yes Patrick has answered the same question
at length on
numerous occasions, but I simply am not seeing very many people
who stay clean
post ibogaine. From this list alone there are so many stories of
I just did
ibogaine and I’m clean, it’s great. Then every one of them vanishes.
And further, reading what Patrick has actually written, not one
thing he
himself says, has anything to do with what was written about ibogaine
in the
80s either. From what I remember it’s more “I’m losing my fucking
mind and
want to shoot dope” Then he went to Bangkok and I guess succeeded
in losing
his mind completely and emerged clean. But he did it with a few
sheets of LSD
and god knows how many other entheogens and a huge amount of work
on his part.
I am not seeing ibogaine solving any of that. It detoxes you. So
do a lot of
other things.
That was my point. Thank you Marc.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract administrationWell, there
are
setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being
drug free
after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked
out of his
mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend
were
living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days).
He
wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity
and I
took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though
having
no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days
later and went
and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each
treatment
costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors
who help
me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly
motivated’
to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his
environment
is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday
recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga
person,
treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine
experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August
2001 by
iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions
since, but
not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction,
but it is
discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging
people for our
help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive
drugs. So
today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com
From: Randywalker57@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] $6m question
Date: November 1, 2002 at 7:45:04 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
<PRE>Yes, I am aware of the deaths, but most were related to benzo usage with the
bupe. I was part of a bupe study and thought it was so much better than
methadone. I am not a fan of naltraxone, I believe the Subutex is a better
choice, at least for me. I have Hep C and naltraxone is hell on the liver.
Not only that, but many people overdose after being on naltraxone. Actually,
I am an advocate of Ibogaine. I really believe that Ibogaine really detoxes.
I mean REALLY detoxes. No foggy head and unclear thinking. Randy
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 7:27:40 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well, there are setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and went and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each treatment costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’ to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person, treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
I would say ditto to most of what Nic and Mundo are saying. But didn’t you say at the time of yr son’s first treatment that you expected this? Howard Lotsof says more than one treatment is the norm.
I think a support group of folks who have been treated should be put in charge of re-treatments, so the effort at least would be on their part. From our point of view, Marc, ibo is a useful adjunct to market separation of pot and hard drugs– a way to keep hard drugs >from completely saturating the pot scene, especially the med mar scene.
And yes, I think they’ll respect it more if they have to pay for it, even at subsidized prices. You gotta pay the Bwiti.
Dana/cnw
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: [ibogaine] For Steve from Andria in London
Date: November 1, 2002 at 7:05:25 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Dear Steve,.
I can guess where they vanish to.
Howz that then? Just asking. I mean i used to say that about friends in NA assuming they’d all gone back to injecting and addiction etc, but every now and then, I’d bump into a few on the street, as bright as a button and doing fine in their lives.
The only person I worked with to help come off (last time i heard) was not completely off everythingm BUT he was a damned sight better off than before the Ibogaine; now stabilised on meds, with galfriend and happy.
Life is sooo unpredictable and that includes for us dope-fiends
Try not to be too pessimistic about us..in reality anything is possible
With respect
andria (london/U.K.
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: AndriaE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (U.K)Class/Scedules(U.S.) of drugs
Date: November 1, 2002 at 6:57:33 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
As far as I’m aware, it’s now schedule £; U might wanna go to apprp gov site and check to make sure; i make mistakes now and then!
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Dana Beal <dana@cures-not-wars.org>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] $6m question
Date: November 1, 2002 at 6:57:14 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
<PRE>Heroin is a schedule I. Buprenorphine, I understand has been changed to a
schedule III. I believe it used to be a schedule IV. So, as you can see,
Howard, the lower numerically, the more prison time. Ibogaine in the U.S. is
a schedule I. A change to a III, would be a change in the right direction. I
don’t see it happening in the U.S.,however. Hope I was of some help…Randy
No. Actually it’s being worked on as we speak. Buprenorphin went thru
numerous scheduling changes. Did you know there are HUNDREDS of
buprenorphin deaths in France alone?
Dana/cnw
From: Randywalker57@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 6:51:08 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc,
I am not from the 80’s, not brilliant, and have had 3 Ibogaine HCL
sessions. Do I consider myself a failure because the first did not magically
take care of my addiction? Not at all. Am I better today? Absolutely! I
believe Ibogaine is a very powerful tool, but it is not a cure. To my
knowledge, cure and opiates don’t belong in the same paragraph together. I
think if there is a problem with the Ibogaine enthusiasts, it is with this
concept that Ibogaine is going to cure. I would have loved to have been
cured, but I still have to work at staying clean. The Ibogaine has been a
great tool. Not just during the sessions. Many positive thoughts from the
sessions stay with me, and can be drawn upon daily. Unlike other detoxes, I
had a clear head and good thinking immediately after the detox. One reason I
don’t write on the forums much anymore, is that I am busy living life today.
I work and have a family. I don’t spend so much time anymore on looking for
answers. I am living and working. Many of the answers to my questions were
answered in my sessions. It made me well aware that I had to change in order
for anything to change. Please don’t be unrealistic in your expectations. In
my case, I used opiates for 20yrs. I went to prison 5 times because of
opiates. I lost everything including my spirit because of opiates. I am clean
today. I work and have a relationship with my family. Miracles? Sometimes our
miracles are very small to those on the outside, but they are huge to us that
have lived the life.
Please don’t give up on the Ibo, and don’t give up on your
people. The one person that wants to do it again? Believe me, that tells me
that he wants to quit. Ibogaine for me was no fun. I swore that I would never
do it again. I didn’t even want to touch it. But, I knew what it did and what
it could do. Today, I am an advocate of Ibogaine. I am not one of the one’s
that support anything under the sun. It is not a beautiful tripping
recreational drug. It is a serious detoxing drug with life changing
qualities.
Sorry for all the rambling. I am just an addict trying to live
in this non-addict world. Take care, Marc. By the way…I think what you are
doing is very admirable. Keep your chin up, Randy
From: Randywalker57@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] $6m question
Date: November 1, 2002 at 6:05:48 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
<PRE>Heroin is a schedule I. Buprenorphine, I understand has been changed to a
schedule III. I believe it used to be a schedule IV. So, as you can see,
Howard, the lower numerically, the more prison time. Ibogaine in the U.S. is
a schedule I. A change to a III, would be a change in the right direction. I
don’t see it happening in the U.S.,however. Hope I was of some help…Randy
From: Steve Valman <stevevalman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 4:38:39 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
What you just wrote is my exact problem and question about all of this. I
reprinted the one message that summarized it all the best which was Occam’s
and nobody replied to me. I haven’t heard anyone say that ibogaine doesn’t
detox you, I think everything I’ve ever read agrees that it does.
But mostly what I’m seeing are a few exceptions, most represented by Patrick.
Fine, Patrick is whatever he is and he shot heroin from 14 until 30 and
stopped because of ibogaine, but whatever he is, he is not representative of
any “normal” human being. Whatever that means.
While he is the most visible and articulate ibogaine success story in the
world, there are at least a handful of people on this list who all fall into
the same category. That being the exceptions.
What has been brought up before and never addressed are all the positive
stories from informal treatment in the 80s. I don’t think I have yet seen one
person on this list fall into that category. None, zero. I’ve seen many people
detoxed and then all of them seem to disappear. Sometimes they stick around
for a while and give updates how they are doing like Karina, but then they
vanish. I can guess where they vanish to.
So what does all that mean for ibogaine. It only works if you’re brilliant,
crazy, super motivated? It only works if you did it in the 80s and then it
stopped working.
This was my question. Yes Patrick has answered the same question at length on
numerous occasions, but I simply am not seeing very many people who stay clean
post ibogaine. From this list alone there are so many stories of I just did
ibogaine and I’m clean, it’s great. Then every one of them vanishes.
And further, reading what Patrick has actually written, not one thing he
himself says, has anything to do with what was written about ibogaine in the
80s either. From what I remember it’s more “I’m losing my fucking mind and
want to shoot dope” Then he went to Bangkok and I guess succeeded in losing
his mind completely and emerged clean. But he did it with a few sheets of LSD
and god knows how many other entheogens and a huge amount of work on his part.
I am not seeing ibogaine solving any of that. It detoxes you. So do a lot of
other things.
That was my point. Thank you Marc.
— MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract administrationWell, there are
setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free
after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his
mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were
living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He
wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I
took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having
no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and went
and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each treatment
costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help
me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’
to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment
is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday
recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person,
treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine
experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by
iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but
not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is
discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our
help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So
today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
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From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 4:39:31 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
—– Original Message —–
From: MARC
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:07 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Well, there are setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and went and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each treatment costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’ to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know these things are tough but, just personally, I’d be quite impressed that the guy even wants to do the treatment again. Ibogaine really is “anti-heroin” at a deep conceptual level. And a lot of addicts, especially those whose desire to get clean is only on the surface, have a pretty rough time on the drug, often actively spurning future offers of ibo re-treatment. My brother used to go back to heroin rapidly afterward and would not easily be persuaded to take ibo again.
I read that you don’t charge, which is amazing ethically, but also having addicts pay for the treatment can increase their desire to go through with it properly. Maybe this guy could pay for his retreatment if he’s so up for it. Addicts are usually pretty adept at getting cash together if they really want something, in my experience.
Just a suggestion, don’t mean to butt into your business
Nick
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person, treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
From: Mundo Real <earthpod2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 4:26:35 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Marc, welcome to the world of addiction!! Not any one thing can help everyone, everytime to SHIFT into a healthier state of being. Iboga is a great tool and is probably the most viable cure on this planet for addiction. Iboga however, just gives the addict a huge open doorway to walk through (pretty easy). It is then up to the addict to then follow through. I won’t do a treatment unless I am assured that re-hab in one way or another (therapy, acupuncture, etc.) will be utilized (after the person transitions back into reality). Hanging out with same old friends and watching the same fucked up things on TV is a great recipe for relapse. The REAL work begins AFTER an ibo treatment. Ibo can give some answers, Ibo can detox with dignity, Ibo can reduce the cravings. Ibo can probably do a whole lot of other things that we don’t even know about (if the intention is right) But ibo can not do it all for the addict. It takes earnest motivation and desire to SHIFT along with correct thought, speech and action. That’s tough for anyone to do (not just for addicts). Don’t be discouraged. We are all on a path together and headed to an efficient, safe, cost-effective, and healing solution for addiction. Integration of REAL post-care is probably the most effective way of preventing a relapse. Also, some people need boosters, some people need up to 10 days to go through a treatment. Everyone is different. Again, don’t be discouraged, you are doing good work and we will get to that solution soon. Mundo.
MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Well, there are setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and went and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each treatment costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’ to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person, treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
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HotJobs – Search new jobs daily now
From: MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca>
Subject: [ibogaine] Setbacks in My Treatments so far
Date: November 1, 2002 at 4:07:45 PM EST
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Well, there are setbacks.
My son, who we treated with indra extract, after 28 days being drug free after iboga, lapsed and scored heroin a week ago. He got kicked out of his mothers home as a consequence of scoring, where he and his girlfriend were living .(having detoxed via iboga indra extract there for 28 days). He wasn’t going through withdrawl, as he told me, “I had the opportunity and I took the opportunity.”
His future and that of his girlfriend now becomes very uncertain.
My heroin/cocaine/meth user who we treated 11 days ago, even though having no physical withdrawl symptoms, got his welfare cheque 7 days later and went and scored heroin . He now wants to do the iboga again, but each treatment costs me $1,000 minimum for the iboga extract and the supervisors who help me. I have declined. 7 days does not impress me as being ‘highly motivated’ to quit when there is an absense of physical withdrawl and his environment is excellent. So we have declined to assist further in this case.
I know addiction is a long, endless struggle for the user. I yesterday recorded a video which will be on POT-TV.net with my first iboga person, treated by Sara Glatt 30 months ago. She lapsed after her ibogaine experience (about 60 days after) and then was retreated in August 2001 by iboga in her own home. She has scored heroin on three occassions since, but not in the last 3 months.
She has been battling addiction since 1989.
I realize iboga is no quick fix on the psychology of addiction, but it is discouraging, these kind of lapses. Since we are not charging people for our help, the only reward we get is seeing people off these addictive drugs. So today we are a bit down.
Marc Emery
From: “Nick Sandberg” <nick.sandberg@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] (U.K)Class/Scedules(U.S.) of drugs
Date: November 1, 2002 at 3:06:58 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Hi Andria,
I hadn’t heard that ibogaine and/or t. iboga had now actually been scheduled in the UK. I know they were on a “hitlist” prepared by Medicines Control last September (2001) but hadn’t heard anything since. Is it definitely now scheduled?
all the best
Nick
—– Original Message —–
From: AndriaE@aol.com
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:23 PM
Subject: [ibogaine] (U.K)Class/Scedules(U.S.) of drugs
Hi Howard
Heroin is a Class A drug (Equiv to U.S. Schedule 1) I believe. Ibogaine wasn’t scheduled at all till last year; hope it wasn’t our fault they found out about it and scheduled it! Far more likely to be related to the ‘special relationship American & English drug warriors’ have with each other..
Schedule 3/Class C drugs over here include some amphetamines, benzodiazepines, Ibogaine and soon cannabis.
Hope all is well in yr life
andria
Director of the John Mordaunt Trust
Editor of the Users Voice
From: Hattie <epoptica@freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract administration
Date: November 1, 2002 at 2:55:52 PM EST
To: <ibogaine@mindvox.com>
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
on 10/30/02 7:34 AM, Mundo Real at earthpod2@yahoo.com wrote:
In my experience, as a former treatment provider in the UK, 20mg/kg is on the high end, but not necessarily too high. I normally preferred to use 18mg/kg and had the best and safest results with this dose. I only dosed someone with 20mg/kg once and was nervous about doing so.
I cannot say whether his experience was more profound than those given 18mg/kg. Everyones experience is so unique it is hard to say which dose works best, or indeed how it works at all. One woman had a very high dose and only felt it for three or four hours and then was pretty much back to normal so you never know.
Due to safety concerns with people I have treated I wasn’t really comfortable using the 20mg/kg dose. This could have been that I am one to always err on the side of caution. But the higher the doses the more I encountered physical difficulties for the people involved.
I generally used 16/17mgs per kg for females and 17/18 for males depending on their state of health. This was often an intuitive procedure as for those working in this field there are no clearly defined maps, right. We ourselves are creating them.
I found that there was a real difference in experiences under the 16mg/kg dose or over. And that 16mg/kg was my lowest dose in the end unless someone had hepC and then I generally did 15mg/kg and if very bad health lower. 16 or over seemed to really get the experience people were looking for and under that didn’t quite hit the mark in my experience with people, but again as mentioned above some people didn’t even really feel the high end dose.
Its a magical thing taking place, and the inner healing of an individual unfolding can never really be predicted.
It would be really great to hear all the treatment providers opinion on the dose range, and why they use the doses they use.
I am compiling a paper on my work (this is a very quick email and not in depth enough I know)
and would love feedback from other providers on this issue.
For those interested in knowing why I have stopped at the moment. There are various reasons but the primary one being that a lot of people that came to me for treatment lied about their health in ways that endangered both them and me. I found out that four people I had treated had had hep C and had told me they hadn’t some even forging doctors papers! The man that vomited blood for seven hours had stomach ulcers, and hadn’t told me despite the fact that I gave everyone an in depth interview about the medical health and previous record. He also had a history of heart disease in his family and hadn’t told me.
I realised that unless I had everyones doctors file in front of me I would never know the truth. And so am now waiting for a time when I can work with a doctor, who will be willing to carry out a full medical screening prior to ibogaine ingestion. Any doctors out there who want to get involved?!
Until later,
Hattie
I think 20 mg/kg ibogaine hcl is too high of a dosing. That would equal 100 mg/kg of Indra 5:1 extract (what I am most familiar with). That setting would make a total dosing of 9,000 mgs (100 mgs x 90 kgs). Maximum dosing for the Indra extract is 5,000 mgs, which comes out to roughly 55 mgs/kg of Indra (5,000 mgs divided by 90 kgs) which comes out to roughly 11 mgs/kg ibogaine content. I believe the Lotsof procedure uses (or used) 1,000 mg of ibogaine hcl for addiction interruption. I would assume that 90 kgs would call for a heftier dose, but 20 mgs/kg seems a bit high. Maybe some other folks can chime in. Mundo.
MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
At 20 mg/kg ibogaine hydrochloride, 90 kg would be around 1,800 mg. The extract contains about 1,700 mg. ibogaine, not so far off the mark. Is there a reason why this dose, in your opinion, is too high?
Marc
—– Original Message —–
From: Mundo Real <mailto:earthpod2@yahoo.com>
To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract administration
Seems like too much ibogaine (1,700 mgs). Max for ibogaine is near 1,000 mgs. Make sure you have your numbers right. Mundo.
MARC <marc420emery@shaw.ca> wrote:
Our extract is administered for him at 37 mg/kg. He weighs 90 kilograms.
3,130 mg. total dose (representing 1,700 mg. ibogaine, 1400 mg. of eleven
iboga alkaloids).
By the way, I have a concern about benzodiazipiam in the patients system. I
am advised by someone who went through Sara’s clinic learning that these
prescription drugs in the system can induce seizures, and if seizures pose a
greater risk during iboga extract administration, if the patient is a long
term user of benzodiazipiams.
Marc Emery
—– Original Message —–
From: “Brett Calabrese”
To:
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [ibogaine] This weeks iboga extract administration
> “Any particular advice in dealing with cocaine-only
> > addicts?”
>
> FWIW, I was treated for coke addiction with alcohol
> (no HotJobs <http://rd.yahoo.com/careers/mailsig/*http://www.hotjobs.com> – Search new jobs daily now
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From: Brett Calabrese <bcalabrese@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ibogaine] FEDERAL COURT OF APPEALS UPHOLDS DOCTOR’S RIGHT TO RECOMMEND MEDICAL MARIJUANA
Date: November 1, 2002 at 12:21:07 AM EST
To: ibogaine@ibogaine.org, ibogaine@mindvox.com
Reply-To: ibogaine@mindvox.com
From The Drug Policy Alliance Mailing List:
FEDERAL COURT OF APPEALS UPHOLDS DOCTOR’S RIGHT TO
RECOMMEND MEDICAL MARIJUANA
In a unanimous decision, the 9th Circuit Federal Court
of Appeals ruled that doctors have the right to openly
recommend or approve marijuana as treatment to their
patients. Patients are likewise free to receive this
information. The decision upheld a lower court’s
injunction prohibiting the Federal Government from
threatening physicians with losing their licenses to
prescribe medications should the doctor recommend, or
even discuss, medical marijuana use with their
patients. Story continued at:
http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/103002courtmdmj.cfm
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